1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: So there is a film that is tremendously important to 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: both of our lives. And back in I think It's 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Safe to Save, you had walked up to a young 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Matt her young Ben, and you had said, what is 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: one of the most impactful films you've ever seen? Not 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: just sci fi film, just film you've ever seen. Odds 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: are pretty high that one of us would have said 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: something like it's the Matrix because it's about way more 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: than science fiction, is about way more than artificial intelligence. 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: It is about the metaphysical nature of reality, idea that 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: there is something beyond the veil. Uh. And then we 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: would go, this is a great conversation, but we have 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: to go record our episode about nasticism. You know, you 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: know this, Ben, Uh? Yeah, No, this is really This 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: is a fascinating conversation that we have with our good 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: friend Joe McCormick in in this episode, this classic episode, 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: and we just learned a little bit about the personal 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: spiritual journey that gnosticism describes. And I particularly love this one. 19 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: I hope that you enjoyed as much as we do. 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: In this world or the next, from UFOs to psychic 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained defense. 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Hello, welcome back to the show. 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. I am Ben. 25 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: You are you? And that makes this stuff they don't 26 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: want you to know. However, ladies and gentlemen, this is 27 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: a very special episode of the show because we are 28 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: honored to have a returning special guests. Uh close friend 29 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: of ours on close friend of the show, writer and 30 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: host for How Stuff Works, stuff to blow your mind, 31 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: forward thinking brain stuff. I could go on, but I 32 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: won't in the interests of time, ladies and gentlemen. Joe McCormick. Hey, everybody, 33 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: it is fun to be back. I think the last 34 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: time I was on this show we were talking about 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: shills on the internet. Oh yes, we got we got 36 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: deep on that subject. We shot some fun things for video. 37 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: If you have not seen that video, check it out please. 38 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: And that's one of that that's one of the podcasts 39 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: that really enjoyed making two and it got a lot 40 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: of feedback. Uh, guys, you were likely largely from sock puppets, 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: we hope. So that's one person making a lot of 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: email accounts Yeah, that's whe where we were. All four 43 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: of us were accused routinely for several months and sometimes 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: still in the common thread of being uh anti Russian 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: spies or something. I can't remember. The conspiracy and the 46 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: threat that was very strange. I didn't mean to promote 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: any anti Russian message, but some people were sensitive about that. Yeah. 48 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: And you know, the thing that we have to deal 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: with when we delve into those kinds of topics is 50 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: that it may appear that we are looking at one 51 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: case obsessively, or that we are somehow singling out one 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: country organization. But it goes back to the sources we 53 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: can find, right just talking about the thing we know 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: the most about. Yeah, and it it sure did appear. Look, 55 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Russia was doing a terrible job, 56 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: but it was way easier to find examples of their 57 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: sock puppetry than many other places. Uh. And speaking of 58 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: fantastic segues, let's get to uh, let's get to something 59 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: that that is fascinating and a little bit of background 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: for everybody. Okay, So in the past, listeners, you have 61 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: asked Matt and Nolan I a question that haunts me still, 62 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: what is the world's oldest conspiracy theory. You may you 63 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: may notice on our videos in the intros, at least 64 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: the older intros, you see something that says it starts here, 65 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: and we've we've wanted to know where does it start? Right? Where? When? What? Why? How? 66 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: All of the all of the big journalistic questions. And 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: it's a game that we have played for years now. 68 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: It's a rough game because, as you're going to see 69 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: quite quickly past a certain point, ancient history is Um, 70 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna curse on the show, so I'll say 71 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: it's a freaking roar shack. People see what they want 72 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: to see in it. They draw what is convenient to them. 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 1: There are people phantom history enthusiasts, for instance, who believe 74 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: that we are still in the medieval or Middle Ages. 75 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: Uh wait, what what's the argument there? Oh? Is that 76 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: the is that the missing era theory where they believe 77 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: there are a couple of hundred years that didn't actually happen. 78 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: Charlemagne's made up. Interesting. Yeah, we we do have a 79 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: video on it, and I think we did an audio 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: episode on it. If we haven't, we should we will. 81 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: Or maybe that was just in the missing years so 82 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: we got to something different. It's not. It's probably not 83 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: the oldest or the first conspiracy theory. Well, according to 84 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: its adherents, it may well be. We're talking about one 85 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: of the oldest extent conspiracy theories in Western history, and 86 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: it's one that casts out not just like on one 87 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: aspect of the world right, but on the entirety of 88 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: reality itself. We're talking about a war for the soul 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: of Christianity, a war for the fate of human beings, 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a war for reality. Uh. The line we use in 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: the video is a cosmic cover up leading to things 92 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: that literally literally cannot be imagined. So we're talking about gnosticism. Uh, 93 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: this is a topic I wanted to talk about on 94 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: a podcast for a long time, and I hope I 95 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: get to revisit it eventually, because unfortunately it is one 96 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: of those subjects that is so fascinating and so rich. 97 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say this, but we will not be 98 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: able to talk about everything that's interesting to talk about. 99 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: We're we're barely going to be able to scratch the 100 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: surface today. But we want to give you a little 101 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: bit of a flavor of what gnosticism is, how it 102 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: was lost to history, and then partially regained what we 103 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: can know about it, why it's so mysterious, and why 104 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: it proposes such a mysterious view of our place in 105 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: the cosmos. And one of the most interesting facts about 106 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: this mystery, as you alluded to, is the fact that 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: it sort of is a conspiracy theory. It is a 108 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: cosmic conspiracy theory about the role of creation of human 109 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: beings of the gods, and how it's all a vast 110 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: cover up. Yeah, and the encounter with the divine. Now, 111 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: as we do in any episode that touches on religion, 112 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: we want to have a little bit of a of 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: a disclaimer, right, Yeah, I would say that for my 114 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: part here, we're not here to evaluate the I don't 115 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: know theological merits of one religion versus another we or 116 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: anything like that. We just want to talk about the history, 117 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: what people believed in the past, where these ideas came from, 118 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: and how they played into ancient societies and still do today, 119 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: and the very very strange stories of early Christianity. Personally, 120 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: I am personally, I'm a little bit I'm a little 121 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: bit bummed that we're not going to be able to 122 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: cover some of the other offshoots or sects but this 123 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: is a big one. This is one of the um 124 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: more mysterious and influential, and we can always come back 125 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: to uh, we can always come back to other some 126 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: of my other favorite offshoots. Okay, So can I put 127 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: you guys in a scenario? Yeah, perfect for all game. Okay, 128 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: So I want to I want to take you back 129 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: into the past and have you imagine that you are 130 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: a Christian living somewhere in the Roman Empire about the 131 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: year one eight, No you specifically okay imagining? Okay, So 132 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: maybe you're in Gaul, you're up in France, and and 133 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: you're part of a small Christian community in a town 134 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: that meets regularly, and you do the Christian rituals. You 135 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: celebrate the Lord's Supper, you practice baptisms, you worship Jesus Christ, 136 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: and you believe Jesus Christ to be the one true 137 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: savior of humankind. So what's your life like? One thing 138 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: I would say is that the pagan locals probably don't 139 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: like you a whole lot. They spread lies about your 140 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: beliefs and religious practices. For example, they might say that 141 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: you guys practice incestual orgies and feast on the flesh 142 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: of sacrificed infants. That's not true, but that's what they 143 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: say about you. When disasters happen. Sometimes people blame you 144 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: and call you atheists because you won't sacrifice to the 145 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: pagan gods of Rome or to the Roman emperor to 146 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: keep everything in order. You're not carrying your weight, right, Yeah, 147 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: you're not doing your job as a citizen of this empire, 148 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: where I guess you probably wouldn't whether or not you're citizens. 149 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: You're not doing your job as somebody living in in 150 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: uh in this community to keep the God's happy and 151 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: keep us out of harm's way. But otherwise things probably 152 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: aren't too bad unless you're living during one of the 153 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: few periods of sporadic persecution. So one day, after a 154 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: good sermon in your church, there's there's one member of 155 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: your congregation who comes up to you and says, uh, hey, bunny, 156 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: did you like that sermon today about the resurrection and 157 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, immortality and all that. Yeah, that was pretty good. Well, 158 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: maybe you should join my private study group. We can 159 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: we can learn more about the true knowledge of God. 160 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: So no, you're gonna You're gonna follow this guy to 161 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: his Bible study group and it meets at his house. 162 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: And at first everything sounds pretty normal. You know, they're 163 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: talking about the same kind of stuff you're hearing about 164 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: in church. They're talking about salvation and knowledge of God 165 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: and eternal life. But over time you start hearing maybe 166 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: some weirder concepts that maybe aren't quite so familiar from 167 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: what you're used to at church, Like how the creation 168 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: story you've always been told in the Book of Genesis 169 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: is really just a cover story, and that Noah's flood 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: was a false flag operation, and that, of course Judas 171 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: is really a misunderstood hero, not the betrayer of Christ. Wait, wait, wait, wait, 172 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: I want to interject real quick. Who are these guys? Well, 173 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: it sounds to me like nol you have encountered some 174 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: adherents of the Gnostic school of thought. I'm intrigued. Tell 175 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: me more. Well, the Gnostics were a group of early Christians, 176 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: and and the Gnostic way of thinking, we do believe 177 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: extends beyond Christianity, so they were There were probably Gnostics 178 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: who weren't exactly Christians, like there might have been hermetic 179 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: Gnostic traditions that had to do with some version of 180 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: the God Hermes, but there was Gnostic Christianity and so 181 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: when people talk about gnosticism, most of the time what 182 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: they're talking about is nastic Ristianity, and it was a 183 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: system of beliefs within early Christianity that uh, that was 184 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: eventually not the dominant one, uh, the strain of thinking 185 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: that eventually became the dominant one in early Christianity and 186 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: then turned into the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church, and 187 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: subsequently also the Protestant Church since that broke away from 188 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, is often referred to by scholars as 189 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: proto Orthodox. So in a very loose way, this just 190 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: means something like Catholics before there was a Catholic Church. Um, though, 191 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: if if you get all the way into the muddy 192 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: waters of early Christian history, that's not exactly. That is 193 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: not an unproblematic concept. People have challenged the validity of 194 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: the idea of a proto Orthodox Church, but I think 195 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: it's it's okay enough for our purposes today. And we 196 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: read we read a fantastic book and a great course. 197 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: Coincidentally that that's the name of the series, but it 198 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: is also a great course. I'm gonna be honest, I 199 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: haven't fish the book yet, but I like what i've 200 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: read and I did check out the great course. So 201 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: we have we have some quotations from an author that 202 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think we're both fans of. Yeah, yeah, 203 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: this guy was my main source on gnosticism. Uh, and 204 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: he's He is an Ohio State University history professor History 205 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: of Christianity professor named David Brackie, and Bracky says this 206 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: in his book on the Gnostics. He says, most scholars 207 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: agreed that there was no single church in the first 208 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: and second centuries, but a multitude of competing groups, one 209 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: of which began to emerge in the third centuries. So 210 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: that be the two hundreds as the dominant one, and 211 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: so can be called proto orthodoxy. So these are the 212 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: guys who eventually become the major dominant players, and they 213 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: are contrasted with what we would think of as as 214 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: the heresies, basically the early systems of thought in Christianity 215 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: that did not become the winners in the battle of ideas. Yes, 216 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: I have I have a great idea for this one 217 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: or a comparison of everybody. So the more we learn 218 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: about the evolution of man, the more we're learning that 219 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: it was not a single linear thing, right, that there 220 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: were other close like versions of people of humanity. So 221 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: that's how we find that there is d N a 222 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: uh Neanderthal Denisovan DNA in modern humanity today. So les 223 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: competing um, these competing types I don't want to say brands, 224 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: but competing types of early man still ended up with 225 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: us today in a kind of I mean d N 226 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: a reproduction is already kind of a religious syncretism or 227 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: similar to it. Right, So this this analogy for um 228 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: for people who maybe are not too familiar with the 229 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: early days of religion, that's a good way to look 230 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: at it. Is that fair? Do you think? Yeah? I 231 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: think that's a really good one in that I think, 232 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: based on what I've read, the most uh, the most 233 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: accurate way to look at the development of of theology 234 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: and Christianity are really probably any religion, but especially in 235 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: Christianity based on what we know is that it's not 236 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: a unity into diversity system, and it's not a diversity 237 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: into unity system, but it's a diversity into diversity system. 238 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: There are lots of competing ideas and they get sort 239 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: of go through recombination over the years into various different strains. 240 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: But you start with diversity and then you end with diversity. 241 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: So where did gnosticism come from? Well, that's a difficult 242 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: question to answer because we don't know exactly where or 243 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: when it came from. Was it a variation that emerged 244 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: from early Christianity? So did you have Christians who started 245 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: taking on ideas other ideas from the culture, maybe from 246 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: neo Platonism, which is the thing we can talk about 247 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: in a bit, uh and and turn into gnostics. Or 248 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: did it originally come from Judaism. Was there a kind 249 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: of Jewish gnosticism that became Christian gnosticism, or did it 250 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: come from paganism and secular philosophy and then incorporate Christian ideas. Uh. 251 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: We don't really know the answer to that question because 252 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: we don't know when or where it first showed up. 253 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: There's some guesses, like some people think maybe gnosticism started 254 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: in the city of Alexandria in Egypt, but they're all 255 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: just kind of circumstantial guesses. We don't really know. One 256 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: thing we can do, however, is disprove some earlier theories, 257 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: because before a very very important point in comparatively recent history, UH, 258 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: Gnasticism was the subject of a lot of wild speculation 259 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: so we can't. It sort of invites that, doesn't it. 260 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: Once we actually talk about the gnostic myth, I think 261 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna understand a little more like why this is why, 262 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: why this invites some really weird literature and speculation. I 263 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: just have to jump in here and say the the 264 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: kind of creation myth and the Adam and Eve myths 265 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: nasticism fascinate me, and I really like them. I think 266 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: I might be converting, like while we're sitting here, Okay, Okay, 267 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: Well we'll check in with you in a little bit, 268 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: ok because I want to hear I want to hear 269 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: what you think once we get to Yaldebo's Oh yeah, 270 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what. You're gonna love them. You're gonna 271 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: loved big hit with the kids, kind of kind of 272 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: like a buddy god sweet in some version. No, not 273 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: at all, I know, I know. Let me just have 274 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: this one, Joe. Okay, Well, anyway point being, point being, 275 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: uh that we know, for instance, the earlier belief that 276 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: nasticism originated in Eastern traditions such as Buddhism is fairly 277 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: easy to dismiss. Yeah, it's probably not correct. That's probably 278 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: not correct, which I know sounds like waffling a little bit, 279 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: but again, it's ancient history. It's all you can do 280 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: is waffle there. There's almost nothing certain in ancient history. 281 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: And then to add to the problem before again a 282 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: very important moment in this story. Uh, the little documentation 283 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: that we did have about Gnostic belief systems came often 284 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: from its critics. They, yeah, almost entirely from its critics. Yeah, 285 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: so for the longest time, almost everything we knew about 286 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: the Gnostics came from heresiologists, from members of this group 287 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: you might call proto orthodox people who who were trying 288 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: to identify bad, aberrant strains of thinking in in their opinion, 289 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: and and teach people how to recognize them and how 290 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: to get rid of them, get them out of your church. 291 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: You know, you don't want these bad ideas running around 292 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: almost like skeptics for the religion or for the belief, 293 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: the system of belief. Well, to bring it, to bring 294 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: it into another thing, you always have to consider a 295 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: source as and gentlemen. So if we were just to 296 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: look at some modern analogies, what we're saying is you 297 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't trust Coca Cola's review of a new pepsi product. 298 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: You wouldn't. If someone works at Chevy, you wouldn't expect 299 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: them to say, you know what, you know, those toyotas 300 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: are badass, you know you and said you would expect 301 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: the opposite. You would expect for them to have problems. 302 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: You're never going to see even an Olive Garden ads 303 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: singing the praises of a night out at Applebee's. That's 304 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: just not how people or ideas work. Well. Our olive Garden, 305 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: in this case, is going to be a second century 306 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: church father named Irony as of Leone. You know what 307 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: do y'all know about Irony s Well, I know that 308 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: he is great at parties. Uh, from what I remember, Well, 309 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: he was pretty much an an enemy of the Gnostic belief, 310 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: to the point of maybe being an alarmists. Well, yeah, 311 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: he he wrote a whole book about this pretty much. 312 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: It's a for sure, it's called Against the Heresies. But 313 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: the real title of this treatise Ireneus wrote is on 314 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: the Detection and Overthrow of the so called Nosis, or 315 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: on the Detection and Overthrow of knowledge falsely so called yeah. 316 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: And he uses the phrase so called yeah so frequently. Well, 317 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: what does what does this term gnosis mean? Well? Gnosis 318 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: refers to sort of the key concept of Gnosticism, and 319 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: it's it's the idea of knowledge. Now, all Christians would 320 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: probably incorporate the idea of knowledge of God, right if 321 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: you want, if you want to be a member of 322 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the true religion, you're gonna have to know what God 323 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: is like. But the Gnostics emphasized their special type of knowledge, 324 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: that that it was a knowledge that was better than 325 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: the kind of knowledge other people had because it was 326 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: a more direct, more true, more intimate knowledge of the 327 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: real reality of what God. Yeah, it also focused on 328 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: knowledge from within as well. Correct, That's that was one 329 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: of the big ideas, is that many much of the 330 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: true knowledge that you are getting actually comes from within. Yeah, 331 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: well that there is that there's this there's a true 332 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: nature inside of you that wants to uh to realize 333 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: the true almost as more of like an enlightened state 334 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: like I like something that you would read about in 335 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: philosophy as opposed to a religious text. That's very much. 336 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: That's very true in some ways, except that there also 337 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: is a ton of complicated mythology. Yeah, that you'd have 338 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: to incorporate. But yeah, so this guy iron As of 339 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Leone who wants to talk about the overthrow of knowledge, 340 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: falsely so called. He was warning his congregation about the 341 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: dangers of all these interpretations of Christianity other than his own, 342 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: and um and and so he talked about what the 343 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: Gnostics believed. He talked about how they were wolves in 344 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: sheep's clothing. They'd come preaching a message that that sounds 345 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: kind of like what you would hear in your church. 346 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: You would be like, Okay, yeah, they're talking about eternal 347 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: life and salvation and knowledge of God. So I think 348 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: that's all right. But then he says, once you dig 349 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: down deeper into what they're teaching, it's this crazy, aberrant, 350 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: horrible thing that's going to lead people astray and straight 351 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: into damnation. A m Night Shamalan twist. It sort of is, Yes, 352 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: it's the it's the end of the village. But for 353 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: your religions, no, I would never I would think that's 354 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: a spoiler. Kidding. I would never tell your listeners that 355 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: at the end of Lost, everybody is in a dream 356 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: of a lawnmower, in the dream of the sentient lawnmower. 357 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: Come on, when was that show over? What's the statute 358 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: of limitations on spoilers? Anyway, Uh, this goes guys, this 359 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: goes into another conversation that the fact that everybody is 360 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: a dream of a sentient lawnmower is more like the 361 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: Gnostic myth than it is what's in lost. Um So, 362 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: the other other things that Irony has said is that 363 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: Irony has had this idea we talked about in a 364 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: minute ago. A minute ago is saying something that we 365 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: were saying is probably not true. He had this idea 366 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: that Christianity began as a single, unified tradition, everybody is 367 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: on the same page, and then later it split off 368 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: into all these bad interpretations on this rock. I found 369 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: my church, and then eventually people lost their way. Yeah, 370 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: but most scholars today of of ancient history and of 371 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: early Christian history just wouldn't agree with that picture. They'd 372 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: see it's probably started very diverse. Um. The He also 373 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: basically said the Gnostics they're immoral, and this is these 374 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: are David Brackie's words, immoral and theologically stupid, so both 375 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: both bad people and dents. And also you can tell 376 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: that he would completely believe and supports of like strange orgies, 377 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: baby eating, you know what I mean. Though, It's funny 378 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: because people said that about his type of Christians, even 379 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: though it probably wasn't true. I mean, baby eater was 380 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: a fairly common Uh, it was. It was a fairly 381 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: common insult in the public discourse. Pretty good to Yeah, 382 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's it was. Our version of it now 383 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: is un American. I've called two of the three of 384 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: you baby eaters before. Yeah, but I respect you because 385 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: you said it to me and not about me, and 386 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: I appreciate you excluding me from that. And to be fair, 387 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: then you were sort of chewing on a baby. Look, guys, guys, 388 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: this isn't about me or or any any allegations. Let's 389 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: move on because we're getting to um Matt's new favorite character. Right. 390 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: So one of the other things Irone has talked about 391 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: is he explained the mythology and theology of the Gnostic 392 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: school of thought as he understood it, which one of 393 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: the main takeaways is, uh, this might come as a 394 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,239 Speaker 1: surprise to some people, but these Christians believe that the 395 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: God of the Book of Genesis is actually a horrible, 396 00:23:53,760 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: false sort of devil figure called YadA Boat. And until 397 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: much more recently, pretty much all we had was these 398 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: these heresiologists, these people writing about gnosticism from an unsympathetic viewpoint, 399 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: so we didn't get their own story, like what they 400 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: would have said about themselves. That is until one day 401 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: in Egypt in nineteen forty five, when a couple of 402 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: guys were digging for fertilizer at the base of the 403 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: Gibal Altarif cliff near a city on the Nile called 404 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: dog Hammadi. They toug up thirteen ancient code disease. They 405 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: were crazy, they were awesome, they were sealed in earthenware. 406 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: But these dudes were refraid. Right, yeah, well, uh so 407 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: codices are basically it means books, it means not scrolls 408 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: are the things you pick up when you're wandering around 409 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: in role playing games, and they tell you about the world. Yes, 410 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: a codex, so so like the codex. You might often 411 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: hear about ancient books called codex something, Codex mallificus, codex 412 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's Codex mallifica as the one it's 413 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: got to be. It's it sounds like it's up there 414 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: in a necronomicon. Air, But it just means a bound book. Right, 415 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: and you see these in Mesoamerica as well, right, And now, okay, 416 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: here's the thing. So at first, these guys don't want 417 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: to open the container because and I love them for this, 418 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: I respect them for this. I hate it when I 419 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: see people acting uh and acting cartoonish and horror movies. 420 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: So if this were a horror movie, they would dig 421 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: up the jar, they would open it. It would be 422 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: Pandora's jar or something, or in some terrible terrible faces 423 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: would melt off right or their faces would melt off. 424 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: That's an excellent example. So so the thing is, Um, 425 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: what I like about this is if you dig up 426 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: a clearly ancient sealed container from who knows how many 427 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: years past. We do, but they didn't at the time, 428 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: you're not just gonna jump in and pop the top 429 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: and see if it happens to drinkable wine or something 430 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: like that. The guys who discovered this legitimately feared it 431 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: might contain a gin. I hadn't heard that detail. Yeah, 432 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: that was so they initially hesitated, and then they when 433 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: they brought them, when they transported them back to uh well, 434 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: long time listeners, you know, a gin is something made 435 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: from juniper berries. It's and it works. Uh A revolutionized 436 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: the cotton industry. Uh no, a a jin d j 437 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 1: I n In or just j I n In is 438 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: a third creation of God in Islam, a third species, 439 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: if you will, not necessarily demons or angels. We've talked 440 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: about and in the past discussion. I think I had 441 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: had the misconception previously that it was always exclusively an evil, 442 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: malevolent spirit, and you've corrected me. But I believe in 443 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: this situation that was likely the one they were expecting 444 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 1: to pop out, That was the fear. Yes, yeah, I've 445 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: always heard about it as a wilderness dwelling spirit of 446 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: some kind. Right, there are different classes of Oh man, Okay, guys, 447 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: we're just gonna have to do a GIT episode one 448 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: day because I'm too fascinated with it. Anyway, So that 449 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: detail is allegedly what happens. And now as we know, guys, 450 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: the Non Commodity Library became very very close to uh 451 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: extinction within just a few like days or weeks of 452 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: discovery because originally I think that one of the people 453 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: came home to the house after they brought it home 454 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: and found that somebody in the house had tried to 455 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: start an oven with some of the papers on the 456 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: cour disseas, and so we we lost part of what 457 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: the library originally was. But I think that just out 458 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: of necessity or were they did they the documents? I 459 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: think they didn't realize what they were. Yeah, but anyway, 460 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: so they eventually it passed hands a few times. I 461 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: think first they showed it to a local priest and 462 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: then eventually it came to the attention of scholars. But 463 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: once scholars became aware of these ancient documents, these codessees, uh, 464 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: that they realized they had something very valuable and very 465 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 1: interesting on their hands. So it was a big collection 466 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: of texts that were written in Coptic, which is an 467 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian language. Is sort of the the last stage 468 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: and the evolution of the Egyptian language over the over 469 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: the centuries. Uh, you know, came from down the line 470 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: from hieroglyphics, but written in Greek Greek script. It was 471 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: a translation, right, Yeah, it was a translation from so 472 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: the originals. These were copies, so they weren't original documents, 473 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: but they were copies of documents that scholars could tell 474 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: were originally written in Greek because sometimes there'd be just 475 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: the Greek word taken straight over when there wasn't a 476 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: good Coptic word to fill in for it, and nobody 477 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: knows for sure exactly when the originals of all the 478 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: texts in this library were composed. But they think that 479 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: the copies that they had in these jars or in 480 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: the jar came from somewhere between maybe three fifty to four. 481 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: But they could have been copies of much earlier works, 482 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: we don't know. And they had all kinds of things 483 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: in them. They had the Christian literature, they had some 484 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: writings of Plato. They had like Plato's Republic, uh, sort 485 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: of I think annotated to be a little bit more 486 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: gnostic friendly. Yeah. What else did they have? They well, 487 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: they have they had some Hermitic literature, Yeah, which we'll 488 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: see Alistair Crowley claimed to have an intimate knowledge of. However, 489 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: this this is important because because let's look back again 490 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: at the the unbelievable circumstance and and the one of 491 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: the questions that we will never be able to answer, 492 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: which is why did someone put these jar and bury 493 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: them at this cliff or did they bury them on purpose? 494 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: It sounds like they did because it was sealed. And 495 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: then another question, who was that person? Yeah, we don't 496 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: know for sure. We probably documents don't identify who their 497 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: author was. I think one thing that's often speculated is 498 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: it was likely either like a monastery or somebody wealthy, 499 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: because these are bound books and those were not available 500 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: to people who didn't have a decent amount of money. 501 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: So it was either like an institution that had some 502 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: money to spend on these documents, or it was a 503 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: wealthy person. Probably. Why were they buried there? I don't know. 504 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: Were they buried for protection once persecution? Yeah, it could 505 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 1: be that somebody valued these books and the theology they 506 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: contained and said, well, you know, the church is not 507 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: so into people having copies of these documents anymore, so 508 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: they were hidden there. That's a possibility, but we really 509 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: just don't know and what But what we do know 510 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: is that this fundamentally shook the foundations of religious study 511 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: in the West. Yeah, because now we had primary access 512 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: to not what the Gnostics enemies said about them, but 513 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: what the Gnostics said about them, said elves. But if 514 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: we got we got their own literature. But here's the thing. 515 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: What their enemies said about them wasn't always wrong. Oh no, 516 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: I mean, they in some cases were basically the picture 517 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: painted by Irony s Uh writing in the year one 518 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: eighty about the Gnostics he was aware of is not 519 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: super off base, it's just very unsympathetic. So he offers 520 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of a kind of a dense, unfriendly reading, offering, 521 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, not a generous portrayal of their understanding of things, 522 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Not generous, but not 523 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: entirely inaccurate. Yeah, he didn't lie, or at least as 524 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: far as I know, he didn't lie very much about 525 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: what they taught. Yeah, he would just say, here's what 526 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: they believe, here's why they're immoral and intellectually inferior and wrong. Yeah, 527 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: because it was contextualized within his beliefs, right right, Yeah, 528 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: So what are the core gnostic beliefs? Like? What makes 529 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: somebody a Gnostic? And and how is it different than 530 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: are Christians of the time or or just other people 531 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: in general. While we talk about this, listeners, just just 532 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: a note here, think about where you might have seen 533 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: a similar philosophy turn up in other places. I think 534 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: it'll be interesting for people to find that. Yeah, sort 535 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: of a Debbie Downer worldview here, ask me not necessarily, 536 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: this is an interesting thing that that that scholar I 537 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, David Brackie. A lot of as I said, 538 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: A lot of my information here is going to come 539 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: from him, and I kind of like his take on 540 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: it because he says, you know, it sounds like a 541 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: downer world view to us, but it also has very 542 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: positive points, in some ways, more positive than than some 543 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: ways of looking at religions that do exist. So so 544 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: hang with me here for a second and we'll see 545 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: how much of a downer it really is. But it 546 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: it's certainly if you're not familiar with it, gonna sound 547 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: weird as heck. First of all, coronostic belief number one, 548 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: The whole material world, including our bodies, is just awful. 549 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: The entire material universe. Yeah, yeah, the material universe. That Yeah, 550 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: I mean that by world, everything made of stuff just sucks. 551 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: It's just awful. It's flawed, gross and wicked, and this 552 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: world is not our true home. They would not have 553 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: looked fondly upon the Madonnas long material girl, No, no, 554 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 1: they would. Yeah, that is the antithesis of narcissism in 555 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: many ways. Yeah, except that it might articulate it pretty well. 556 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: Gnostic theology from the other end, saying like, well, you know, 557 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,239 Speaker 1: I'm fine being a being a confused, befuddled creature of 558 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: material existence. Who doesn't know my true inner light? But 559 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: why is this so flawed? Well, the world is incredibly 560 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: flawed because and I mentioned this earlier, the God who 561 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: created this world is not the true God, but a dumb, cruel, 562 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: feeble wanna be god called yald about oath or also 563 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: also parallel with this idea, or sometimes known as the 564 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: demi urge, right, and in some schools of Nasticism, also 565 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: called the craftsman, which I think is what demi urge means. Yeah, exactly. 566 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: In the etymology, it's the it's the great artifice or 567 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: one who who builds or creates this world. So in 568 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: a way, this, this creator is the source of the 569 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: imperfection defining the material world. And in some cases yelled 570 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: the boss, this demi urge, this craftsman is not aware 571 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: that a higher plane exists. Yeah, he's kind of fumbling, 572 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: or he might be sort of aware. It's just this 573 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: is just not a good God. And you can see 574 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: pretty immediately why this made Christians mad and they didn't 575 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: like this, this alternate theology. So as humanity just sort 576 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: of a tragic, silly accident. No, I'll get to that 577 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: in the creation myth and a bit, but they well, 578 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: it's it's a sort of humanity, is a way of 579 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: rectifying a tragic, silly accident. But our material bodies are 580 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: no good. Material is garbage, right, This this is a 581 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: a reality, and transition is maybe a way to put it. 582 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: Oh I like that. I like that very much. Yeah. 583 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: So another core tenant, it's that our our material bodies, 584 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 1: as we've said, materials are bad, and so our material 585 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: bodies are not who we really are. We come from 586 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: a spiritual plane of existence, which is the plane of 587 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 1: the true God, uh not the inferior creator of this disgusting, 588 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: horrible material world. And this true God is largely indefinable, unknowable, incomprehensible. Yeah. 589 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: And then and then finally, one of the other maintenance 590 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: is that you can find salvation in achieving correct knowledge, 591 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: and achieving knowledge of your true origins and the true 592 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: origins of the universe, the true origins and nature of 593 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: human beings, and discovering them through participation in these very 594 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: complicated myths. Okay, so now I think it's time to 595 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: actually do a case study in gnostic mythology and look 596 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: at the Gnostic myth as presented by one of their 597 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: scriptures that was discovered in the Nakamati Library. But before 598 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: we do that, we need to take a listen from 599 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: our sponsor. Yeah, here's where it gets crazy. Okay, Now 600 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at what's in the Secret Book. According 601 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: to John, it was one of these texts contained in 602 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: the Nagamati Library. It's one of the cortex of of 603 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: this uh of the Gnostic school of thought. And I 604 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: want to present it. I want to give credit where 605 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: credit is you. I'm presenting it as summarized by the 606 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: scholar I mentioned earlier, David Bracky, because he has a 607 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: really great summary and explanation of it actually in his 608 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: Great Courses series on Gnosticism, which I highly recommend checking out. 609 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: So he's my main source on on what I'm about 610 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: to tell you. But this is what you get if 611 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: you read the Secret Book according to John, which you 612 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: can read online as well. Oh yeah, so, first of all, 613 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: authors unknown, We don't know who actually wrote it. Claims 614 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: to be written by the apostle John, but you know, 615 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: it probably wasn't. Uh. It was written probably sometime between 616 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: like a hundred and a hundred and fifty c e. 617 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: We don't know for sure, but it is an apocalypse. 618 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: And this is a very popular form of religious writing 619 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: for the time. In fact, there are there are apocalypse 620 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: is in the Christian Bible. There is the Book of 621 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: Revelation that that's the apocalypse of John. What what revelation? 622 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: There is just the it's the translation of the word apocalypse. 623 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: It means an unveiling or a revelation of things. Right. 624 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: We've explored that point on this show before, because nowadays, 625 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: in modern US usage or English usage, it's often conflated 626 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: to mean just a disastrous into the world or something, 627 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: and really it's just it's a it's a an enlightenment 628 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: of sorts. Yeah. I think it comes from the fact 629 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: that that often these revelations did reveal things about the 630 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: end of the world, but the but originally apocalypse just 631 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: meant revelation. And though it is certainly true that a 632 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: very popular thing for the gods to reveal was something 633 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: about the end of the world. Right, it's not gonna 634 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: who's gonna win the next game? Right? Yeah, you have 635 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: to be able to scare people in order to believing 636 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: in what you're telling them, right, Okay, Okay, So the 637 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: Secret Book according to John, this apocalypse revealed to the 638 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: disciple John. The Savior appears to John after he's already resurrected, 639 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: and he comes back. He's like, listen, I'm gonna tell 640 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: you the true story about everything. Now, this time for 641 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: the real story. So are you guys already buckle up? 642 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: I've been trolling you for thirty three years. Um. So 643 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: here it is. The true God is not the God 644 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: of the Bible. The God of the Bible is a 645 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: fake god. The true God is in fact, this abstract, 646 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: huge mind. It's like a Brackie's words, are a vast intellect. 647 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: And this huge mind fundamentally cannot be known or understood 648 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: by human beings. It's this vast, complicated but at the 649 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: same time completely simple, at rest, at peace, incorruptible, perfect 650 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: spirit of thought. Well, originally, originally you want you? Are 651 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: you with me? So far sounds to me like a 652 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: giant quantum computer the size of several universes, maybe a 653 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: giant single thought. Well, actually it's everything there is. So 654 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: originally it's everything there is. It's ultimate, eternal and at peace. Uh. 655 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: And this thing is called in in Brackie's words, he 656 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: calls it the invisible spirit. That's actually what the Genesis 657 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: song Invisible Touches about. Is that true? I'm not I'm 658 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: not a genet. I wanted to be true. Well, let's see, 659 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: maybe they are listening to the show. So right in, guys, 660 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: right in, and let us know right well, there is 661 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: something about this invisible spirit that figures into that because 662 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: he wants to touch the light, the heat in our eyes. 663 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: And he begins to think, so I said he, but 664 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: actually it's more likely to say it. Yea. So the 665 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: invisible spirit, it begins to think, and when it begins 666 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: to think, the thinking produces an entity of thoughts. So 667 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: it has a thought, and that thought is the first 668 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: created thing known as forethought Greek pro noia. That is 669 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: a reflection of the invisible spirit itself, because if it's 670 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: all that exists, what does the invisible spirit have to 671 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: think about except itself? So it thinks about itself, and 672 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: then that thought becomes sort of a copy of itself. 673 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: So the forethought is a divine thought that is also 674 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: known as an eon like self awareness. Yeah uh, and 675 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: these thoughts are all known as eons or emanations from 676 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: the great invisible Spirit. Are you with me so far? 677 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're about to go into the deep water. Okay. 678 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: Fourth forethought is also known as barblo, a word that 679 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,399 Speaker 1: we can't translate. We don't know where it comes from. 680 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: The first time I heard it actually always a child 681 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: that was watching uh animated film called Vampire Hunter D 682 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: And there's a character named Barbara Barbelo or are they 683 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: pronounced it barbelow as well, and I think it's a 684 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: character or a place, and so I checked it out. 685 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 1: I did some research at the library and that's actually 686 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: how I learned about Nussicism at a young age from 687 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: Vampire Hunters. Vampire. Well, that's an important thing you point out, 688 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: you say character or a place, because I think with 689 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: these divine with these divine beings. In the Gnostic mythology, 690 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: the line between place and person is kind of blurred. 691 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,240 Speaker 1: Something like the invisible spirit could be referred to as 692 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: a as an entity that acts like a person, but 693 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: it can also be thought of as like a place 694 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: you can go. So the invisible spirit thinks the eon 695 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: forethought or barbailo and uh. And then when God has 696 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: thought of as a collection of AONs or eons, he 697 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 1: starts thinking all these thoughts um and this whole collection 698 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: of thought eons is known as the entirety or the fullness, 699 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: and they all and they use a buddy system too, 700 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. So each eon has a counterpart of 701 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: the opposite sex, making it this kind of male email partnership. 702 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: So it's not just an eon, but there's like the 703 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,800 Speaker 1: eon of wisdom, which has the female main part of wisdom, 704 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: but then also the male counterpart two wisdom. Okay, you're 705 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: with me so far. Maybe then the invisible spirit looks 706 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: upon the Barbelo, and this act creates a spark called 707 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: the auto jen, a sort of the divine self origin. 708 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: It is the English term bract he uses. It's also 709 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: known as the anointed One or the Christ. So it's 710 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: something kind of like sexual procreation between the abstract and 711 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: visible spirit and the Barbelo that produces the Christ. And 712 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: you can see how fundamentally offensive this would be to 713 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: the proto orthodoxy of the time. And perhaps listeners to 714 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: to some of you know, to keep in mind, we 715 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: are not preaching this. We're attempting to shy light upon 716 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: this fast cover up theory. Yeah, okay, so so I 717 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: just have to start really vast. So okay, So the Barbelo, 718 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: which is a thought from the invisible invisible spirit, it thinks, 719 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: I thought, it creates kind of a mirror image type 720 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: thing of itself. Then when the invisible spirit looks at 721 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: the mirror image of itself again, it sort of has 722 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: sex with it spirit whatever it does to it to 723 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: create a second thing from it. So it's like spiritual union. 724 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: It emanates, it has a co emanation. Yeah, okay, And 725 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: how are these these uh, these various elements personified? Like 726 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: if you had to animate them, if you were going 727 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: to make like an instructional cartoon about these various parts, 728 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: what would they look like? Pure white light extending forever 729 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: into the universe. No, I'm just kidding. I just made 730 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: that out. But it's something like, I mean, I think 731 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: that they don't have you can't, you cannot not like angels. 732 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: They don't have like a corporeal No, we're not to 733 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: that yet. These these things are more like sentient concepts. 734 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: But we're getting there. We're getting to the creatures. Okay, 735 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: So uh this leads so after the there's this barbelo 736 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 1: uh invisible spirit union here, this leads to the emanation 737 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: of twelve more eons. So they're just creating thoughts all 738 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: over the lace eons that are separated into four groups 739 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: led by beings called the Luminaries that serve the divine 740 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: self original and I don't get into all their names 741 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: and everything, but ultimately here's where we get to how 742 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: all the trouble started. So you remember I mentioned to 743 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 1: go a minute ago how they all have male female 744 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: counter counterparts. Well, there's one eon called Wisdom or Sophia. Uh. 745 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 1: And Wisdom is the lowest eon yet created, and she 746 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: is female, and she decides that she wants to think 747 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: her own thought without the help of a male counterpart. 748 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: The mail was so she she essentially wants to reproduce 749 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: a sexually so to speak. And this is a mistake, 750 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: a huge mistake. It is. It is the ultimate huge mistake. Uh. 751 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: And the e so she does it. She manages to 752 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: reproduce a sexually, but the eon she produces by this 753 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: comes out seriously flawed, messed up, deformed. And it's this 754 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,439 Speaker 1: misshape and progeny that's called all the both. So even 755 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: in this mythology, the female is the one that screws 756 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 1: everything up, uh sort of, But she's also she also 757 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: ends up trying to set things right right. This is 758 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: kind of a hero's journey for Sophia. In fact, this 759 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: is an interesting question people have looked into, like is 760 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: gnosticism more more feminist friendly than than other ancient religions, 761 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: And some people have said, well, yeah, it is for X, Y, 762 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: and Z reasons, And then other people have said, well, no, 763 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: it's not really for these other reasons. I think it's 764 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: kind of a wash. It has it has some more 765 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: female friendly ideas and it has some less female friendly ideas. 766 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: But but to to Knowl's point, it is it is 767 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: true that it has that that Pandora moment, that moment 768 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: which is very common in stern religions. Yeah, yeah, I 769 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: mean a lot. Let's face it. I mean a lot 770 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: of the people controlling these ancient religions were men, and 771 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: a lot of them didn't think very highly of women. Right, 772 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: It's true the gender politics which can continue, the gender 773 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: politics you hear about the day, were much much different 774 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: earlier on the point of spiritual beliefs. So so we 775 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: got you all both on our hands. Well, obviously about 776 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: oath has no place in the entirety. So where's he 777 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: gonna go? Well, they got to cast him out, So 778 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: they cast out the oath. He's out of the heavenly 779 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: Realm's satan, right, No, he's not quite well. I mean 780 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,760 Speaker 1: to them, he might, but they don't use these terms. 781 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: But I'm saying in in the mythology, he is a 782 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: stand in forestaction saying that commonality. Yeah, a bad figure 783 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: who's cast out the differences. He's a bad seed instead 784 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: of a rebellious force. He's just not perfect this world 785 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: of perfect thought and wasn't wasn't one of the concepts 786 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 1: that Sofia was actually trying to kind of cover up, 787 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: like her mistake, like she was, uh, see you, yes, exactly, 788 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: She's trying to hide it. So she throws him out 789 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: into exile. And one more parallel, remember in the Greek 790 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: and Roman tradition, Vulcan and Herfestus throw him from Mount Olympus, 791 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: uh and becoming lame, also becoming the artificer of that pantheon. Ah, 792 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: that's a very interesting parallel. Okay, So we got y'all 793 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: to both cast out bye bye to the entirety. But 794 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: when he goes, unfortunately, he takes some of the power 795 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,319 Speaker 1: of the entirety with him. Promethean Yes, and then what 796 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: once he's out there, what's he gonna do. He's just 797 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: out there in the void. He's out he's outside of 798 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: the entirety. So he's like, well, I'm gonna make a 799 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: copy of the entirety. Duh, that's what I gotta do. 800 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: I gotta make another one of those that I came from. 801 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,839 Speaker 1: But because he's dumb and uh mean and not very good, 802 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: he just flawed in pretty much every way, he doesn't 803 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: do a good job, and instead he makes this horrible world. 804 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: He's trying to copy the invisible spirits emanation of the eons, 805 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: so you know, the invisible spirit thinks thoughts and they 806 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: become companions, these other beings you all. The bath instead 807 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: makes a bunch of godlike beings to be in his 808 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: court that are known as the Rulers. And these are 809 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: these evil figures that are sort of God's helpers and 810 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: the bad God's helpers. And I just want to say, 811 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 1: far be it to like humanize this abstract concept. But 812 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: it's an understandable thing on an individual level to want 813 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: to recreate a home. But he's kind of a dick 814 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,439 Speaker 1: about it. I just have to say, Yaldebo doesn't think 815 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: he's a bad guy in the scenario at all yalda 816 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: bo just is doing what he or she or it 817 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,440 Speaker 1: thinks it wants. They're a bad guy. Yeah, Hans Gruber 818 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: just wanted to sit on a beach with you know, 819 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: earn a right. Right. Well, that's you know, that's a 820 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,320 Speaker 1: that's a a point that we explore here. But here's 821 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: why I say that, you know, and being crassed when 822 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: I say he's being a dick or whatever. But he 823 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 1: lies to his creations. He does. So He's created these rulers, 824 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,440 Speaker 1: and he tells them that there are no other gods 825 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 1: except for him, and he demands loyalty from his eons. 826 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,959 Speaker 1: And this is this is bad news. The entirety gets 827 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: wind of this, and they don't like it. Uh. So 828 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 1: there is some some fixing that needs to be done. There, 829 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: there is a there is an act of repair that 830 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: must be carried out. And who does that fault to. Well, 831 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: really it falls to Wisdom because it's her fault for 832 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: creating yelled about with in the first place. All right, 833 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: So so Wisdom's gotta fix things, uh. And so what 834 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: she does is she temporarily comes. She temporarily comes together 835 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: with the eon known as Afterthought. And this pairing along 836 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: with the Barbelo. So there's some some teamwork here. Uh. 837 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,360 Speaker 1: They try to reclaim the power that Yella Bath stole 838 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: from the spiritual realm of the entirety when he left. 839 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,800 Speaker 1: And they kick things off by saying, let's have yelled 840 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 1: the Boath make some humans. So by influencing Yelda both 841 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: secretly yeah yeah, they send an image of light in 842 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,920 Speaker 1: the form of a human in actually the form of 843 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,840 Speaker 1: the entirety down to yealda Boath and this tricks yelled 844 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: the bo Oath into creating the form of a spiritual human. 845 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,359 Speaker 1: So they make a human, but it won't become animated. 846 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: But this is a bear in mind. This is not 847 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: a human with a body, it's the spirit of a human. 848 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: So then Wisdom and the Barbelo trick yelled to bo 849 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 1: Oath into breathing his spirit into the newly created human forms. 850 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: Yelled to both does it. But this was a bad 851 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: idea for him because in doing so, he passes the 852 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: power of the entirety that he took when he was 853 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,879 Speaker 1: exiled into these created beings um and and this means 854 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,360 Speaker 1: the humans are going to be more powerful than ye 855 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,879 Speaker 1: all the Oath and the rulers and that's no good. 856 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: So they gotta scramble to cover up the mess. And 857 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: what they do is they quickly cram the newly created 858 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: human spirits into bodies made from the matter of the 859 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: universe that they all to boath created bodies made of earth. 860 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: And this helps keep humans bogged down, just kind of 861 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: feeling baffled and unable to think clearly. It also limits 862 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: their power by all by chaining them to this rock 863 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: in a way by gravity. Yeah, yeah, that would be 864 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,560 Speaker 1: an interesting way of thinking about it. Like that, We're 865 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,760 Speaker 1: just we're just stuck. We're just stuck in this nasty 866 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: mire of material stuff. Uh So, now what are Wisdom 867 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: and the Barbelo are gonna do? Well, they get another plan. 868 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: They send Wisdom down in the form of afterthought to 869 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: hide inside humans and try to steer them back to 870 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: knowledge of the spiritual realm, knowledge of the entirety, and 871 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: so the great the huge salvation conflict and gnosticism uh allah. 872 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: The revelation of John is that Wisdom and the Barbelo 873 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,720 Speaker 1: are trying to bring the power of the entirety uh 874 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: present in human beings back to the spiritual plane. Meanwhile, y'all, 875 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: the oath and the evil rulers want to prevent humans 876 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,840 Speaker 1: from figuring out their true nature, figuring out their power, 877 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: and prevent them from getting knowledge of the invisible spirit 878 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: and of where they came from. So it's a battle 879 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: over revelation of secret knowledge. The good guys want us 880 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: to figure out the truth about where we came from, 881 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,879 Speaker 1: and the bad guys want to perpetuate the conspiracy. Right, yeah, 882 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,479 Speaker 1: and the cover up and the cover up, I'm glad, 883 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that. And so the cover up 884 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,880 Speaker 1: it comes in the form of we get these false stories. 885 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: So what the Gnostics said about the Bible that the 886 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: other Christians believed in that, you know, the Jewish text 887 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: that they adopted from the Torah, the Book of Genesis. 888 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,879 Speaker 1: The Gnostics would say, yeah, that, I mean, that's all 889 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: pretty much true as it goes, but it gets some 890 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,440 Speaker 1: things wrong because they believed Moses wrote it, and they 891 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: believed Moses was working from the incorrect assumption that Yalda 892 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: Both was the true God, but in fact, yell To 893 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 1: Both was Yalda Both not the true God. So it's 894 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:13,399 Speaker 1: full of just mistakes and stuff that the Gnostics tried 895 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: to correct. So a part of this secret revelation. Uh, 896 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: according to John, is that he he retells the Genesis story, 897 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: but he fixes the parts that Moses got wrong and said, actually, 898 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:31,160 Speaker 1: what happened here, for example, Uh, in Noah's flood is 899 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 1: that you know, Yalda both wanted to kill all the 900 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 1: humans to snuff out the invisible spirit, but instead the 901 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: spirit of wisdom came down and gave us some you know, 902 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: and and preached to Noah and revealed things. And then 903 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,719 Speaker 1: Noah was able to save some people and preserve the 904 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,200 Speaker 1: spirit of truth, like he fixes. I hope I hope 905 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,439 Speaker 1: listeners that you all hear the air quotes around fixes right, 906 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,719 Speaker 1: that that that idea is so fascinating to me, that 907 00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, instead of in the biblical recollections of what 908 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: occurred when no A story that there are actually two 909 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: gods or two forms of gods who are very dying, yeah, 910 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,200 Speaker 1: for to save them but then also destroy them. And 911 00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: it gives like a reasoning behind wanting to flood the world. 912 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Yeah, so you can imagine. I mean, 913 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 1: this probably sounded as ridiculous to ancient Christians who are 914 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 1: not part of the Gnostics thought as it does to 915 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 1: people who aren't familiar with it today is just like, 916 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: what is all this complicated stuff? Where do they get 917 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,120 Speaker 1: this from? So in a way though, uh, right, before 918 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,319 Speaker 1: we get to the end, this is sort of a 919 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,800 Speaker 1: prequel to Christianity, yes, But then also there are Gnostic 920 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,920 Speaker 1: texts that, in the same way that this sort of 921 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,600 Speaker 1: rewrites the story of what happened in the Book of Genesis, 922 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,120 Speaker 1: there are also Gnostic texts that rewrite or at least 923 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: offer a different version of the story we get in 924 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: the canonical Gospels. So if you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, 925 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,840 Speaker 1: and John, there's some differences between them, but they present 926 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,799 Speaker 1: a you know, sort of basically similar eology about who 927 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 1: Jesus was um and what's going on there. The Gnostic 928 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: scriptures are very different. Uh. For example, there's the Gnostic 929 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,760 Speaker 1: Gospel of Judas. It's a retelling of the Gospel stories. 930 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: This one was not found in No Commodity. Is a 931 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,480 Speaker 1: different Gnostic scripture Discovery, but just some brief features of 932 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: this Judas. Judas is scary and the one who in 933 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,319 Speaker 1: the old story is the betrayer of Jesus now is 934 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,960 Speaker 1: not the bad guy but the hero. And so this 935 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,800 Speaker 1: story is not so much concerned with the works or 936 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 1: deeds of Jesus, but with his revelations. So Jesus reveals 937 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,919 Speaker 1: all the secret history of the universe and his plan 938 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,440 Speaker 1: of salvation to Judas himself and the other disciples don't 939 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: get it. And then Judas helps Jesus slough off this 940 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: you know, worthless material body and a sin to the 941 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,440 Speaker 1: higher plane. And and further his message of of you know, 942 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,399 Speaker 1: revelation of the true knowledge. And so with this inversion 943 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: of that of that story, for the ultimate human villain 944 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,279 Speaker 1: of the Bible even even worse than Herod, right, for 945 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: the ultimate human villain of the Bible to actually be 946 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,640 Speaker 1: the more like uh that the Hans Solo kind. You're 947 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,680 Speaker 1: all clear, kid, Now, let's blow this thing and go, 948 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: oh yeah, It's absolutely necessary for Judas to exist and 949 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: betray and do what he did in order for salvation 950 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,200 Speaker 1: to occur. So it's always been a fascinating thing for 951 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,680 Speaker 1: me just going back and looking at that story and 952 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: how Judas then becomes vilified and is evil for allowing 953 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,640 Speaker 1: for salvation. As as we'll see, the nastics to the 954 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: earlier point about diversity, Uh, gnostics did not well, let's 955 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: agnostic traditions did not always agree on these points, just 956 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: as Christian denominations today don't agree on points. Yeah, and 957 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: so that that brings us to I mean, there are 958 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,440 Speaker 1: various schools of so called gnosticism, and this is gonna be, 959 00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,200 Speaker 1: uh another point where we should introduce some subtlety, because 960 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,760 Speaker 1: some things that people have called anastasism are things that 961 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 1: modern scholars might say, Well, I don't know if that 962 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,800 Speaker 1: should be called gnosticism. Uh, you know, is it sufficiently 963 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 1: similar to say that it's the same thing Ironeus is 964 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,120 Speaker 1: talking about in one eighty or is this a different 965 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing? For example, there are schools of thought. 966 00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: One of them would be Valentinianism, after the religious thinker 967 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 1: Valentinus in the second century. Right, right, So in this 968 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 1: school of thought, Uh, this DENI urged yelled to off 969 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: the craftsman, not an inherently bad guy actually or bad 970 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:36,320 Speaker 1: being actually, is working in concert with this higher God, 971 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,240 Speaker 1: this invisible spirit to bring about salvation. So in other words, 972 00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,919 Speaker 1: this is like the employee who is at the clean 973 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: up site yeah of an environmental or metaphysical disaster. Huh. Yeah, 974 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 1: and so and so Valentinianism is one of these. It's 975 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: like some early heresiologists might have lumped it in with Gnosticism, 976 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: and even some recent historians might, but then other history 977 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,760 Speaker 1: ends would say, no, Valentinianism we should think about as 978 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: its own thing, but yelled about in this is still 979 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:12,920 Speaker 1: flawed and is not always helping with consent or knowledge, 980 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: but instead being secretly influenced. Another another flavor of early 981 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,520 Speaker 1: Christianity that was, you know, condemned probably by the proto Orthodox, 982 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 1: but might also have been different than Gnosticism with which 983 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,920 Speaker 1: it was lumped in, is Thomas Christianity. You may have 984 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,520 Speaker 1: heard about the Gospel of Thomas, right this is this 985 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,200 Speaker 1: is one of these early discoveries of of another gospel 986 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: that may have even come from the first century. It 987 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,400 Speaker 1: was an early writing. We don't know exactly when it 988 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,919 Speaker 1: came from. Oh, actually, we don't know exactly when any 989 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: of these gospels came from, but we have pretty good 990 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,600 Speaker 1: ideas about the canonical gospels. Gospel of Thomas was probably 991 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,280 Speaker 1: pretty early, and people used to say, well, this is 992 00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: a gnostic gospel, and now we don't know for sure. 993 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: Jesus says things in it that sound pretty nastic. But 994 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,440 Speaker 1: then there are other you know that their their secret knowledge, 995 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,880 Speaker 1: their secret knowledge revealed only to certain people. But then again, 996 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: there are other elements that I think scholars would say, no, 997 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,520 Speaker 1: it needs to have its own category. So here's here's 998 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:17,640 Speaker 1: another question. What happened Sasticism. Yeah, this is a good 999 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,640 Speaker 1: question because I mean, I think the traditional story is well, 1000 01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,960 Speaker 1: Nasticism lost control for the battle of Christianity and the 1001 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,680 Speaker 1: proto Orthodox Church. Eventually the Catholic Church one out and 1002 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: got to dictate what theology was across the Roman Empire, 1003 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,040 Speaker 1: and thus the Gnostics were just sort of eliminated from history. 1004 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:41,240 Speaker 1: But I think there is now an emerging strand of 1005 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,040 Speaker 1: historical thought that that says that's that's maybe not the case. 1006 01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:49,920 Speaker 1: It's more like Gnosticism as a named thing lost power, 1007 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:54,000 Speaker 1: but it also in a way got to define the 1008 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 1: path of Christianity in doing so, in the number one Christianity, 1009 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 1: Proto Orthodox Ristianity and early Catholic Christianity would partially define 1010 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,240 Speaker 1: itself in opposition and reaction to Anasticism, So it drive 1011 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,080 Speaker 1: drove some theological statements in those ways, and in other 1012 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,960 Speaker 1: ways you can still see gnostic ideas that seem to 1013 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,600 Speaker 1: be incorporated into the late theology of existing Christianity today. 1014 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: For example, think about how some Christians today might say 1015 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,960 Speaker 1: that the material world is evil and the only true 1016 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,720 Speaker 1: reality is a spiritual one. I mean, that sounds compatible 1017 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 1: with what people would think of as normal Christianity today, 1018 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: but that also sounds a lot like a Gnostic idea. Now, 1019 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, thank you for join and me. I 1020 01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,040 Speaker 1: know a lot of these pews empty because it's Sunday 1021 01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:47,640 Speaker 1: football season. But I'm not going to put on of fancies, suit. 1022 01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: I don't think the price of the ticket to the 1023 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: football game matters. There's another ticket not trying to get right, Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. 1024 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, so condemnation of the material world, or how 1025 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: about this is a common thing you'll see in Christianity day, 1026 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: the idea that the world is not the way it 1027 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,680 Speaker 1: was supposed to be. You know, that there's something flawed 1028 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,360 Speaker 1: about the way the world is now. Well, I mean 1029 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,320 Speaker 1: you could say that that seems compatible with what most 1030 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Christians understand from their modern theology, but at the same 1031 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,440 Speaker 1: time that that sounds pretty similar to some Corognostic teachings. 1032 01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,520 Speaker 1: And this is uh, this is a fairly common belief 1033 01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,320 Speaker 1: in many other religions. Yeah, and then of course there 1034 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,120 Speaker 1: are other traditions that have continued throughout the years that 1035 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,920 Speaker 1: that do seem to incorporate elements of Gnosticism. So like 1036 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,200 Speaker 1: the Mandans, that's you know, that's a religion that that 1037 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: seems to be in some ways nastic. Yeah, and then okay, 1038 01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 1: here's here's something. We were going a little bit long 1039 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: on this podcast, but we hope you're enjoying it here 1040 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,480 Speaker 1: and we have some good news. This ancient conspiracy goes 1041 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,760 Speaker 1: into the modern day. So although Nasticism and I love 1042 01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,919 Speaker 1: the way to say this, Joe is defeated in name 1043 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,760 Speaker 1: by what would become the Orthodox of mainstream church, those 1044 01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,920 Speaker 1: beliefs and organizations have been revived at several points in 1045 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:11,880 Speaker 1: history leading to the present day. That's right. No, if 1046 01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,360 Speaker 1: you want to be a Gnostic, you could sign up 1047 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: today in yeah, I really been. I mean, if you 1048 01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,080 Speaker 1: want to show me how Okay. In the eight nine, 1049 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:27,400 Speaker 1: a French librarian named Jules Donelle founded uh the Inglis 1050 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,320 Speaker 1: Nosti or the Gnostic Church. Funny story, Eventually he gave 1051 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,440 Speaker 1: up and resigned converted to Catholicism because he fell for 1052 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,959 Speaker 1: an anti Masonic hoax called the Taxil Hoax. Later later 1053 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,080 Speaker 1: he joined Uh, he rejoined his own church as a bishop, 1054 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,760 Speaker 1: and then this thing for this became a part of 1055 01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: a larger entity. That church folded. But don't abandon hope yet, folks. 1056 01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,680 Speaker 1: If you want to join up, you can consider the 1057 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: spiritual descendant of this uh, the church the Gnostic Church 1058 01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,280 Speaker 1: of Apostles of the eng Least nast a post Leak 1059 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: founded by Robert Amberlain in Night. That church exists today 1060 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 1: in France, French territories, in the Ivory Coast in Midwestern America. Uh. 1061 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,240 Speaker 1: And you know, Gnostics also have a tremendous impact on 1062 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,240 Speaker 1: other figures that aren't necessarily like religious figures US. For instance, 1063 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:27,280 Speaker 1: the Theosophical Society uh, spearheaded by uh Madame Blevatsky, who 1064 01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: was not my favorite person, but you know it deserves 1065 01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,000 Speaker 1: a mention, is what's wrong with Madame Blevatsky is just 1066 01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,520 Speaker 1: not my favorite person. That's the nicest thing I can say. 1067 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:40,160 Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, because Alistair Crowley is right. Yeah, yeah, 1068 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,640 Speaker 1: he's a he's a swell guy. But he's also inspired 1069 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: by nastic thought in a secular way. He had like 1070 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:49,120 Speaker 1: the sexual magic belief in gnosticism. Uh. And then Carl 1071 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: Young was fascinated by it. There was even a magazine 1072 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,000 Speaker 1: that ram for short time called Nosis in a Burst 1073 01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,480 Speaker 1: of Creativity, That's what they named it, and it was 1074 01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:03,040 Speaker 1: devoted to that Esoter tradition. But it goes further than that. Listeners, 1075 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,320 Speaker 1: if you look at some of your favorite works of fiction, 1076 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,800 Speaker 1: you will see the gnostic belief carrying on today, like 1077 01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:13,360 Speaker 1: Neanderthal DNA and a Homo sapia. Yeah, sometimes I wonder 1078 01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,680 Speaker 1: how conscious this even is, Like there are lots of 1079 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:21,680 Speaker 1: science fiction novels and movies and stuff that have extremely 1080 01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,560 Speaker 1: familiar themes if you've read about gnosticism, but you wonder 1081 01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:27,600 Speaker 1: like did the creators do this on purpose? Or is 1082 01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 1: or is this sort of cosmic conspiracy theory just a 1083 01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,360 Speaker 1: just does it run deep in our dna? Yeah? Do do? 1084 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,040 Speaker 1: We do? We naturally go to these places when we're 1085 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,200 Speaker 1: trying to dream up what the truth about a crazy 1086 01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,240 Speaker 1: world might be like, But examples would be things like 1087 01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,760 Speaker 1: Blade Runner or the Matrix. Well, just sort of like 1088 01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,560 Speaker 1: that meta idea of like, this is not the big picture. 1089 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,000 Speaker 1: What we are experiencing here is almost a test or 1090 01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,960 Speaker 1: a cruel joke, and um, once we are revealed the 1091 01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,280 Speaker 1: bigger picture our minds were either blown or we are 1092 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,360 Speaker 1: able to you know, transcend to that reality. This is 1093 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:08,000 Speaker 1: a painful audition in the great cosmic drama. Or I mean, 1094 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,200 Speaker 1: they're trying to reach it back out to the to 1095 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,960 Speaker 1: us and and give us these truths through our media. 1096 01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 1: They found out that mass media is the way to 1097 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 1: actually get this knowledge back to everyone. Well, yeah, so 1098 01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:23,040 Speaker 1: there's definitely this theme about like things being not how 1099 01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,560 Speaker 1: they seem. But also how about the theme of creations 1100 01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,320 Speaker 1: rebelling against their creator when they find out how flawed 1101 01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,920 Speaker 1: and wicked he is. Yes, either if any of you 1102 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,520 Speaker 1: seen um, yeah, yeah, and that that's a that's a 1103 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 1: great that's a great film with an ambiguous ending that 1104 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,080 Speaker 1: one I won't. I have not seen that yet. Okay, guys. 1105 01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:48,840 Speaker 1: At the end, it was all the and uh ice 1106 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:53,720 Speaker 1: cube ends up going like going back and Samuel L. 1107 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: Jackson is eaten by the shark. Right, and then there's 1108 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,120 Speaker 1: this weird cameo by Tom Waits. I don't know what 1109 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,200 Speaker 1: he was going for, but I liked it anyway. He 1110 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,320 Speaker 1: was the voice of the lawnmower. He was the voice 1111 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 1: of the lawn more So there there's other stuff, right, 1112 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,840 Speaker 1: sci fi is often steeped a gnostic thought. One of 1113 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,240 Speaker 1: the one of the films I saw him as a 1114 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:13,840 Speaker 1: kid that blew my mind was Dark City. Remember that, Oh, 1115 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,640 Speaker 1: I loved it. Holds up, It holds up. But yeah, 1116 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,880 Speaker 1: it's supernostic. Right, Yeah, there's everybody lives in this Everybody 1117 01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 1: lives in this sort of bewildered dreams stay where they're 1118 01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:29,640 Speaker 1: sort of kept stupid by powers above them, and that 1119 01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,200 Speaker 1: there's a reveal or figure who wants to bring the 1120 01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,720 Speaker 1: light and make people awaken from their stupor and realize 1121 01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,080 Speaker 1: where they are and how they came to be there. Yeah, exactly. 1122 01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,120 Speaker 1: And then there are there are other films like that, 1123 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:46,760 Speaker 1: but they're also comics. We're huge comic fans here at 1124 01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: how stuff works, and and we're if we're not on 1125 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,120 Speaker 1: the air, sometimes we meet up just to trade comics. 1126 01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,000 Speaker 1: But one that really I don't know about you guys, 1127 01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 1: but one that really impressed Matt and I was The Invisibles. 1128 01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,840 Speaker 1: I've only read the first volume of it because Christian seger, 1129 01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: my co host on Stuff to Blow Your Mind, loved it. 1130 01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,880 Speaker 1: But he loaned that to me and I loved it. 1131 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:08,760 Speaker 1: I've got to read more. I've got the full set 1132 01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: if you want to read them. Yeah, yeah, dude. Well okay, 1133 01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:13,800 Speaker 1: so before we go and change this to the comics show, 1134 01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,760 Speaker 1: well we have to do the following things. We have to. 1135 01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:19,840 Speaker 1: First off, thank you so much Joe for coming onto 1136 01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,000 Speaker 1: the show. It's always a pleasure. That's fascinating. Well, thank 1137 01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:24,640 Speaker 1: you so much for having me. It's been a lot 1138 01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:26,840 Speaker 1: of fun. And as I said at the beginning, unfortunately, 1139 01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,960 Speaker 1: I mean a gnosticism is such a huge and fascinating subject. 1140 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,000 Speaker 1: We have only scratched the surface. So if you want 1141 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,760 Speaker 1: to learn more about it, one of the main things 1142 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,120 Speaker 1: I'd recommend is the works of the guy I've mentioned 1143 01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,320 Speaker 1: a few times on here. David Brackie is a scholar 1144 01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:42,280 Speaker 1: of gnosticism. Very interesting, very careful scholar. Uh and I 1145 01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:44,840 Speaker 1: like his work, So look him up and look at 1146 01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: his books or his Great Courses series on it, and 1147 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,280 Speaker 1: that's a good place to start. No, what what was 1148 01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:52,240 Speaker 1: that look you just gave me? Why are you? Why 1149 01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:54,479 Speaker 1: are you making shrimp eyes at me? Man? That's just 1150 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,680 Speaker 1: the way my eyes looked. Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, man, 1151 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,280 Speaker 1: the weird mee. You gotta make them bigger, just like 1152 01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,839 Speaker 1: little slits. No, no, Okay, look, what's going on here, guys? Yeah, 1153 01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:06,559 Speaker 1: doesn't he have kind of I don't want to make 1154 01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:11,840 Speaker 1: this awkward for you, Joe. Okay, but listen, No, you've 1155 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,759 Speaker 1: been You've been alluding to a thing. It's a weird vibe. 1156 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:19,559 Speaker 1: Are you accusing me of him and halling? I'm accusing you, 1157 01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:24,599 Speaker 1: certainly of being circuitous. But uh, far be it for 1158 01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,599 Speaker 1: us to sit around accusing each other. That's not gonna work. 1159 01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:31,160 Speaker 1: But this is a show about uncovering the truth. So 1160 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,280 Speaker 1: lay it on, est man. What's going on? Yeah, you've 1161 01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,280 Speaker 1: alluded to this? What's this Stuff of Life all about? Oh? 1162 01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,519 Speaker 1: My gosh, you guys, the Stuff of Life? Thank you. 1163 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:42,680 Speaker 1: That's that's my new show that I've been working on. 1164 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,320 Speaker 1: And you're right. I have alluded to it a few times, 1165 01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:48,280 Speaker 1: just talking about things that I've learned, um in the 1166 01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:51,840 Speaker 1: research that my colleague and our colleague Julie Douglas has 1167 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,439 Speaker 1: done wonderfully as the host of the show. UM. But 1168 01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,240 Speaker 1: my part is I am the producer, um And you 1169 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,160 Speaker 1: know I produced a out of the How Stuff Work shows, 1170 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,080 Speaker 1: But as many of you guys know, that largely consists 1171 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,800 Speaker 1: of folks in the room having a conversation. So the 1172 01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:10,160 Speaker 1: extent of my production on many of those is you know, 1173 01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,840 Speaker 1: editing and doing you know, sound design here and their 1174 01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: music cues. And I've done some original music for some shows, 1175 01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,439 Speaker 1: but this is a show that's given me the real 1176 01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to just kind of, you know, stretch my legs 1177 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,200 Speaker 1: a little bit and I do original music compositions and 1178 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,559 Speaker 1: sound design so to kind of give sort of like 1179 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 1: an immersive quality to these these of these episodes. Right, yeah, 1180 01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,040 Speaker 1: but what is the show about. I'm glad you asked. 1181 01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,840 Speaker 1: The show The Stuff of Life is largely it's just 1182 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,200 Speaker 1: about you know, it can be anything. Really. Like the 1183 01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:39,639 Speaker 1: first episode, the pilot, which I'm actually going to drop 1184 01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,559 Speaker 1: in iTunes on the twenty seven of this month, which 1185 01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,080 Speaker 1: is uh, will be next Wednesday, UM, is called the 1186 01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:50,160 Speaker 1: Power of Fear and UM we talked to experts in 1187 01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,560 Speaker 1: addition to folks right here at How Stuff Works. We 1188 01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,960 Speaker 1: have sort of a little round table section in every 1189 01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,320 Speaker 1: episode where people get to kind of weigh in on 1190 01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,120 Speaker 1: the topic and we make some really nice little on 1191 01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,000 Speaker 1: bites and everyone kind of has a chance to sort 1192 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,439 Speaker 1: of give their two cents on what we're talking about. 1193 01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,479 Speaker 1: But in the fear episode. We talked to UM two 1194 01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:11,200 Speaker 1: folks who have a company where they actually train UM 1195 01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: office workers for example, or people in retirement communities how 1196 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:18,160 Speaker 1: to deal with an active shooter scenario. That's actually one 1197 01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:19,800 Speaker 1: of the little details I mentioned. And we were talking 1198 01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:23,479 Speaker 1: about crisis actors. UM. This company goes in and does 1199 01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,439 Speaker 1: these drills. They do let people know they're happening. And 1200 01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,120 Speaker 1: the point that I made in the episode was that 1201 01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, when people do these things without letting people know, 1202 01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,880 Speaker 1: that's a you know, good recipe for some lawsuits there, UM, 1203 01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,080 Speaker 1: but it's a it's it's a thing that happens. And 1204 01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,280 Speaker 1: they had a really interesting perspective on just how to 1205 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,320 Speaker 1: deal with fear, things like tactical breathing, and they talk 1206 01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,360 Speaker 1: a little bit about the Centennial Park bombing. That kind 1207 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:47,759 Speaker 1: of was sort of the impetus for you know, how 1208 01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:50,360 Speaker 1: do we deal with these scenarios and what you know 1209 01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,280 Speaker 1: kind of gave them the influence they needed to start 1210 01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:54,640 Speaker 1: this company. UM. But we just sort of kind of 1211 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,439 Speaker 1: crack open stories and sort of look at what's inside 1212 01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,880 Speaker 1: and figure out, you know, what makes us tick and 1213 01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:02,880 Speaker 1: why we're such storytelling machines. Not in terms of fiction, 1214 01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,560 Speaker 1: but just in terms of how we share our experience 1215 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,599 Speaker 1: on this planet. Okay, so this is a story about 1216 01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:10,720 Speaker 1: the human experience, I would say, So that's it's a 1217 01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:12,280 Speaker 1: good way to put it. Ben. You don't have to say. 1218 01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:14,960 Speaker 1: I listened to a bit of a I guess a 1219 01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,040 Speaker 1: rough cut that you had sent me. And the sound 1220 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,120 Speaker 1: design and the way everything flows together. I hate to 1221 01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,840 Speaker 1: make you know a comparison, but it sounds to me 1222 01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,760 Speaker 1: like a radio lab type show that has all of 1223 01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,880 Speaker 1: the music flowing into a next segment and then you're 1224 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,840 Speaker 1: somewhere else and then everything changes. It's just beautiful. Man. 1225 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,080 Speaker 1: I've also yeah, I've also heard it. I totally have 1226 01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,160 Speaker 1: production envy. Uh. And like all the shows, we do 1227 01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,479 Speaker 1: it how stuff works. This is free longtime listeners. Some 1228 01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:45,280 Speaker 1: of you may remember Julie Douglas from her tenure on 1229 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:50,040 Speaker 1: Joe show Stuff to Blow Your Mind, and uh, Julie 1230 01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:57,000 Speaker 1: has this fantastic um and this fantastic talent for finding 1231 01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,840 Speaker 1: the the spark or the hinge of a story. So 1232 01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:05,840 Speaker 1: when you when you listen to episodes of Stuff of Life, 1233 01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:11,000 Speaker 1: if you like this show, you'll love that show. The 1234 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:14,920 Speaker 1: same applies to Stuff to Blow your Mind. Absolutely and 1235 01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:16,640 Speaker 1: just say you guys know, Um, it is live in 1236 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,599 Speaker 1: the iTunes store already, and you can go and pre 1237 01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:21,680 Speaker 1: subscribe if you want to. There is sort of like 1238 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,080 Speaker 1: a little trailer, kind of a teaser in there right now. 1239 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,160 Speaker 1: M pretty short. But then on Monday coming up, we're 1240 01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:29,840 Speaker 1: gonna launch what we're gonna call episode zero, which will 1241 01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:31,519 Speaker 1: be sort of a more like a four or five 1242 01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:33,759 Speaker 1: minute just kind of run down about how the show works. 1243 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,639 Speaker 1: But I'll go ahead and give you the heads up here. 1244 01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,479 Speaker 1: What we're doing is we're gonna have a show come 1245 01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,160 Speaker 1: on every week. UM, you're gonna have it start. The 1246 01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,200 Speaker 1: first episode is going to be about thirty forty minute 1247 01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,960 Speaker 1: episode um. And then after that there will be like 1248 01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,439 Speaker 1: maybe a half a long episode that's a little lighter 1249 01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:49,640 Speaker 1: but sort of a companion piece to the topic that 1250 01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,200 Speaker 1: came the week before, and we're going to continue that. Um. 1251 01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:57,559 Speaker 1: And definitely and uh, full disclosure, I was I was 1252 01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,799 Speaker 1: hoping it get caught. I'm not sure how the final 1253 01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,880 Speaker 1: it goes, but at some point in the show I 1254 01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,120 Speaker 1: did freestyle. It's true. It's glorious. So go ahead and 1255 01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,800 Speaker 1: look forward in the iTunes store and I'll subscribe now 1256 01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:11,479 Speaker 1: and so you can get that episode zero in your 1257 01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:13,200 Speaker 1: feed as soon as it drops, and then the first 1258 01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:16,000 Speaker 1: episode which comes out on Wednesday. And we've also got 1259 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,080 Speaker 1: some social media stuff gone on Facebook. I believe it's 1260 01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,320 Speaker 1: just Facebook dot com slash the Stuff of Life, but 1261 01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:23,360 Speaker 1: you can just search for it and definitely find it 1262 01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,040 Speaker 1: um and looking forward to hearing some feedback. Yes, Stuff 1263 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: of Life. Stay tuned. You'll never you never know who 1264 01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,920 Speaker 1: might pop up on that show. Uh. So there's there's 1265 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,200 Speaker 1: one other, one other thing, Joe, that we have to establish, 1266 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,519 Speaker 1: which is that Stuff to Blow your Mind. One of 1267 01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 1: our pure podcasts, which you host, has a lot of 1268 01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:45,400 Speaker 1: episodes that would be right up the alley of our 1269 01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,800 Speaker 1: audience right yes, over on Stuff to Blow your Mind. 1270 01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:51,920 Speaker 1: My co hosts Robert Lamb, Christian Saga and I we 1271 01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,840 Speaker 1: explore all kinds of topics. Were primarily a science podcast, 1272 01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,080 Speaker 1: but we try to bring a lot of diversity of 1273 01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:59,040 Speaker 1: subject matter and so we end up talking a lot 1274 01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:05,280 Speaker 1: about phthology and religion, uh, philosophy, history, and we just 1275 01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,640 Speaker 1: try to keep it weird, to always surprise you with 1276 01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:12,000 Speaker 1: something strange about reality, because reality is pretty strange, isn't it. Yeah, 1277 01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,840 Speaker 1: I mean this one who knows about the other one? Right, Yeah, 1278 01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,040 Speaker 1: the the the the invisible spirit, who knows what lies beyond. 1279 01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:20,920 Speaker 1: But if you want to check out some some stuff 1280 01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:24,200 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, friendly topics on stuff 1281 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:26,280 Speaker 1: to blow your mind, you might start with the episodes 1282 01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:28,479 Speaker 1: Christian and I did recently on the Science of the 1283 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:33,320 Speaker 1: X Files from January of sixteen. Or maybe you could 1284 01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:35,880 Speaker 1: look at the episodes Robert and I did last summer 1285 01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,640 Speaker 1: called Techno Religion for the Masses if you're interested in 1286 01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,400 Speaker 1: these religious themes, where we talked about intersections of technology 1287 01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:47,040 Speaker 1: and religion, including some fascinating religions that border on some 1288 01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:51,280 Speaker 1: semignostic themes. But that's not your only show. Yes, you 1289 01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,320 Speaker 1: can also listen to me. I'm one of the co 1290 01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,560 Speaker 1: hosts on the show Forward Thinking with Jonathan Strickland and 1291 01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,680 Speaker 1: Lauren Bogelbaum, where we talk about future technology. So if 1292 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:01,800 Speaker 1: that's thing, you can find me there too, And you 1293 01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,599 Speaker 1: can find Joe on the Stuff of Life. Yes, that's right, 1294 01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,400 Speaker 1: our man Joe is popping up left and right in 1295 01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,360 Speaker 1: the podcast world, and it's always a pleasure when our 1296 01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:13,840 Speaker 1: paths intersect. They have a demonic copy of me that 1297 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,040 Speaker 1: they use for half of this stuff. You know, I 1298 01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:24,080 Speaker 1: get some of the same accusations. We're having a moment, right, yeah, yeah, 1299 01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,360 Speaker 1: break the circle of you were biting on that baby 1300 01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:33,439 Speaker 1: and I saw it happen. Look, you can't go around 1301 01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:35,479 Speaker 1: be it. What are you the king of babies? You're 1302 01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,320 Speaker 1: in charge of all the babies. To be fair and old, 1303 01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,200 Speaker 1: we did let that baby get way too close. Guys, guys, 1304 01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,439 Speaker 1: let's remember that the audience is listening right now. Thank 1305 01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:46,280 Speaker 1: you guys so much for tuning in. If you would 1306 01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:50,240 Speaker 1: like to learn more about nasticism, you can check out 1307 01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:54,679 Speaker 1: our video series. You can uh send us an email 1308 01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,960 Speaker 1: because we have a lot of stuff in the course 1309 01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,320 Speaker 1: of this that, as Joe said, we couldn't get to 1310 01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,000 Speaker 1: at the time, but who knows, we might return to 1311 01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:05,479 Speaker 1: explore more early Christianity. If you want to talk to 1312 01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,040 Speaker 1: us directly, you can tweet to us. You can join 1313 01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,920 Speaker 1: our Facebook group. Every like gets us a little bit 1314 01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,920 Speaker 1: further away from being fired, So check out conspiracy stuff 1315 01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:18,280 Speaker 1: on both of those both of those formats. If you 1316 01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:23,040 Speaker 1: want to hear every podcast we've ever ever done, including 1317 01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,360 Speaker 1: our earlier work with Joe over here, then you can 1318 01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:29,479 Speaker 1: visit our website. Stuff they don't want you to know 1319 01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,000 Speaker 1: dot com the best and longest u r L in 1320 01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,040 Speaker 1: the history of mankind, and this well, I was going 1321 01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:39,479 Speaker 1: to say realm, but that's fine, and that's the end 1322 01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,880 Speaker 1: of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or 1323 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,880 Speaker 1: questions about this episode, you can get into contact with 1324 01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,000 Speaker 1: us in a number of different ways. One of the 1325 01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:50,880 Speaker 1: best is to give us a call. Our number is 1326 01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:55,000 Speaker 1: one eight three three std w y t K. If 1327 01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:56,840 Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you can send us 1328 01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,000 Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy. iHeart radio 1329 01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:04,240 Speaker 1: dot Com Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is 1330 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,320 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from 1331 01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:10,440 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1332 01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:12,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.