Speaker 1: When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be
Speaker 1: honest with you. I sel t shirts and swag to
Speaker 1: the folks who are there, and then people always say,
Speaker 1: can we get this wag without sitting through a whole
Speaker 1: evening of you. Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You
Speaker 1: can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson Merch
Speaker 1: website and you can buy it for yourself or someone
Speaker 1: you hate or someone you love. For more information and
Speaker 1: link to the web store, please go to the Craig
Speaker 1: Fergusonshow dot com. That's all lowercase, the Craig Ferguson show
Speaker 1: dot com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of
Speaker 1: this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest in people
Speaker 1: about what brings them happiness. Today, my guest is Justin Wilman,
Speaker 1: who is not only the acceptable face of magic, but
Speaker 1: actually the entertaining an interesting face of magic. His show
Speaker 1: for Humans or Netflix was where I first saw He's
Speaker 1: amazing and very interesting, as you're about to find that.
Speaker 1: So first of all, let me just say this to you,
Speaker 1: because I try not to fawn on people in there here,
Speaker 1: but really in all honesty, everyone who's on this podcast,
Speaker 1: I'm either a friend or a fan of now you
Speaker 1: and I have just met ye, and I'll happily be
Speaker 1: your friend and hang out with you, But I'm not
Speaker 1: your friend yet. Now I am a fan of your work,
Speaker 1: and that puts me a slight disadvantage. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: on the back foot a little bit because I'm very
Speaker 1: impressed by what you do, and I don't get impressed
Speaker 1: that easy like magicians. And I don't think of you
Speaker 1: as a magician alone. I mean, I think you're a magician,
Speaker 1: and you do other stuff and you present and you
Speaker 1: kind of you have like a comedic vibe, but you
Speaker 1: don't have the creepy weirdness of magician. And I'm kind
Speaker 1: of concerned, like, and you're sleep you don't have any
Speaker 1: like long sleeves, so I know you don't have like
Speaker 1: right project. Unless these are false arms.
Speaker 2: You never know. I got here at five am. I
Speaker 2: rigged the couch up.
Speaker 1: Is there a kind of a fraternity or or is
Speaker 1: there a collegiate sense amongst magicians even though even although
Speaker 1: you're you're kind of the owen fong teribla of that
Speaker 1: whole thing, though aren't you. I'll look that up. But
Speaker 1: what you are is, you're kind of like you're the
Speaker 1: punk rock man. You're the You're the change, You're the
Speaker 1: You're the kind of new generation. You're You're it's all different.
Speaker 1: You don't have a cape, you're much less rape and
Speaker 1: you're you. You have a very different vibe about you
Speaker 1: than what I think of is you know the classic
Speaker 1: show magic. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, wow, there's a lot of compliments to unpacked, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: first off, right, the fact that you said you're a
Speaker 2: fan of this is very surreal.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you knew who the HECKU I was.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, I'm such a fan of you. Oh
Speaker 2: I have always been. You know everything about you, have
Speaker 2: listened to interviews with you. I just I I like
Speaker 2: you a lot. So this is very cool for me
Speaker 2: to be here. You're not in the backfoot at all. No,
Speaker 2: that's great. But now I feel like I'm going to
Speaker 2: disappoint you. No, okay, well listen, like likewise, as a magician,
Speaker 2: far too.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to ask you to do any
Speaker 1: tricks at all today. I want to It's not tricks,
Speaker 1: it's illusions, my illusions. Illusions tricks is fine, but you
Speaker 1: don't have an assistant wearing a big thing. Would you
Speaker 1: ever play Vegas? Have you ever played?
Speaker 2: I just did Vegas for the first time a week
Speaker 2: ago with the Venetian, Right, that's that's the first time
Speaker 2: on the strip. Probably on the strip I've done, like
Speaker 2: the Sun Coast or the off the Strip, the Orleans,
Speaker 2: the Orleans as well. You feel like you're in Vegas
Speaker 2: until you walk out the front door and then you
Speaker 2: see Vegas in the distance. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love the Orleans though, because I felt like maybe
Speaker 1: I was part of the rat pack, you know they
Speaker 1: had the sign was still the kind of shitty writing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so smoky. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway, so you played? Did you wear a cape? Did
Speaker 2: you wear a cape? Okay, didn't wear a top hat?
Speaker 2: No lovely assistance, you know. I think I went through
Speaker 2: those phases early on when you were just incredible, when
Speaker 2: I was just incredible exactly.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is a great start off name from a magician.
Speaker 2: I think it was like this catchy name my mom
Speaker 2: came up with when I was doing kids' birthday parties
Speaker 2: right now, And I don't think i'd rather cape them,
Speaker 2: but I certainly wore talks. You know in public as
Speaker 2: a teenager.
Speaker 1: That's all right. I mean, my my oldest son was
Speaker 1: was very into magic when he was a kid. He
Speaker 1: used to Rick Thomas. He loved Rick Thomas. He was
Speaker 1: on your show a couple of times. Cats. Did he
Speaker 1: bring the cats ever? I don't, I can't remember. I
Speaker 1: used to have magic.
Speaker 2: You had a lot of magic, I remember, and Alonso
Speaker 2: was a good buddy mine.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we didn't see a bunch of magicians when
Speaker 1: he was that age. He kind of moved on and
Speaker 1: moved in animation and that's where it became like his
Speaker 1: artistic expression. But for a while, Chris Angel, he was
Speaker 1: I guess Chris Angel was a kind of like I
Speaker 1: guess that was a kind of hairmail, part of.
Speaker 2: Punk rock, but very you know, it was new. It
Speaker 2: was a little goth at first, right, and then it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of like kiss.
Speaker 1: He was kind of you know, but there is that
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of thing with the younger magicians
Speaker 1: that you guys do stuff that you can't see. The
Speaker 1: illusion is like the you know, it's like the oh
Speaker 1: I'm levitating. No, there's a thing, Oh there's how can
Speaker 1: he have end up his sleeves he's don't go any sleeves.
Speaker 1: It's like it's disarming. It's really freaky, like that Magic
Speaker 1: for Human show that you go to Netflix. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know the fuck this guy's up to. This
Speaker 1: is crazy. It's like maybe he's a demon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a demon in a in a in a
Speaker 2: boyish costume sorts.
Speaker 1: You are boyish. Yeah, So how did it started off
Speaker 1: for you? Because I always think like, because you're a
Speaker 1: stand up as well, sort of kind of you have
Speaker 1: that vibe, right, and you do stand up.
Speaker 2: I've never done stand up without magic involved, you know,
Speaker 2: but I do chunks between tricks, right, you know. And
Speaker 2: that happened, you know, when I went to Emerson College
Speaker 2: of Boston. I was just incredible. I was doing kids
Speaker 2: birthday parties on the weekends, and then befriended Dan Levy,
Speaker 2: who's a stand up comedian. He became my best friend,
Speaker 2: not not Dan Levy, Dan Lee. And we we roomed
Speaker 2: out here in la at the oak Woods, and he
Speaker 2: would go up every night, you know, and always be
Speaker 2: working on new material, whereas a magician tends to hone
Speaker 2: the same thing over the course of their career. Well
Speaker 2: you have, I mean, yes, yeah, yeah, I mean like
Speaker 2: all the greats. You know, I would go to see
Speaker 2: Lance Burton and I would go to see him do
Speaker 2: the doves that I that I had heard of. I'd
Speaker 2: seen him do you know, these polished classics. But you know,
Speaker 2: the comic mentality is kind of always be, always be
Speaker 2: moving forward.
Speaker 1: Well, I because I always think of me because I
Speaker 1: knew a lot of stand ups and it's kind of
Speaker 1: my thing. And the mentality and the kind of the
Speaker 1: inside mental workings of most stand ups is pretty dark.
Speaker 1: And then I've met a lot of magicians, and the
Speaker 1: stand ups and the inside mechanism most magicians I've met
Speaker 1: is pretty dark as well. I mean it feels to
Speaker 1: me like you're jewel addicted point. I mean it's like
Speaker 1: is there a real is there a real kind of
Speaker 1: is there a darkness? Well, there's got to be everybody.
Speaker 1: I wish everybody has a darkness. Everybody has a darkness.
Speaker 2: But you know, like Dan was my liaison into the
Speaker 2: comedy world, and I you know, we we'd bounce around
Speaker 2: town and I would be throwing new stuff all the time,
Speaker 2: get out of my comfort zone. But he he also
Speaker 2: has he has no darkness, right, He's just the sweet,
Speaker 2: right happy optimist, you know, and I had I have
Speaker 2: a darkness, you know I've had, I've had, you know,
Speaker 2: there were you know, addiction, little stints along the way
Speaker 2: when we first moved to l A, you know La.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah you can run into that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can have the wrong neighbors. I had the
Speaker 2: wrong neighbors. So I first got my first apartment and
Speaker 2: and you know what was your thing was? It was well,
Speaker 2: it eventually became crystal math. I know, I never took
Speaker 2: crystal myth. I feel like I've been soberferred so long
Speaker 2: that drugs have been invented since and I never go
Speaker 2: at the crystal myth.
Speaker 1: What it is like speed? Yeah all right, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like speed on speed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you know, I think there was a part
Speaker 2: of me that just like I had this fomo like
Speaker 2: I I just didn't want to miss out or anything.
Speaker 2: But also I had this addiction to what I thought
Speaker 2: would make me more productive and effective. And you know,
Speaker 2: like yeah, on for longer, and that's that's kind of
Speaker 2: what it's for. It makes you think you're you're on
Speaker 2: for longer.
Speaker 1: I liked the feeling of the operas as well. You know,
Speaker 1: when I'm glad because when I took, when I was
Speaker 1: in the drugs and alcohol, the bass notes never sung
Speaker 1: to me, you know, the heroines and that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: which I'm quite glad of because that seemed to kill
Speaker 1: people much faster. Whereas cocaine, to me, it was cocaine
Speaker 1: back then, you know, that's what there were, steam trains, cocaine,
Speaker 1: phones had big circles on them. It was just a
Speaker 1: better time, simpler times. But I always thought of cocaine
Speaker 1: it just kind of like helped me drink more.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, they're kind of like a one two as well,
Speaker 2: that kind of doesn't Yeah, yeah, it was kind of uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I wouldn't. I mean, alcohol was a was
Speaker 2: a thing for me for a while. I only just
Speaker 2: now this year January first, you know, kind of out
Speaker 2: alcohol together.
Speaker 1: So which is which was as even.
Speaker 2: More of like I have more pride for that than
Speaker 2: you know, the drugs.
Speaker 1: Because the drugs was you know, I it was. It was.
Speaker 2: Well, society is not constantly telling you that doing crystal
Speaker 2: meth is okay, but society is constantly telling you that
Speaker 2: you got to drink ad a good times. So that's
Speaker 2: some brainwashing that takes a while time to do it
Speaker 2: really is.
Speaker 1: It's an odd thing. But when I started, when I
Speaker 1: was doing stand up at the beginning, I was drunk
Speaker 1: a lot while I was doing it, and then performing
Speaker 1: sober took a bit again used to it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can't imagine for someone who does something as as clever
Speaker 1: as what you do, that that being impaired on stage
Speaker 1: is something you can get away with.
Speaker 2: Not pretty, yeah, not pretty sometimes you know, like I
Speaker 2: would be I would, you know, have a drink or
Speaker 2: two before a show, and I say sometimes, you know,
Speaker 2: like last year, and uh, you know, sometimes it would
Speaker 2: if I'm doing the you know, the show that I'm
Speaker 2: really comfortable with, it would almost be like a you know,
Speaker 2: let me throw myself a little curveball of impairedness and
Speaker 2: let's see how how you get out of this one.
Speaker 2: Justin you know, there's almost like little self challenges that
Speaker 2: come out. I get the boredom of routine.
Speaker 1: Well that the routine, and also I think somewhere in
Speaker 1: there and I'm I don't know why I'm going here
Speaker 1: with this, but but there's a sort of deserveability of it,
Speaker 1: because you know, you're like you're a comer, man. I
Speaker 1: mean it's like you're you're on the way to being
Speaker 1: like you're big now, but you're going to be like
Speaker 1: this huge, big, giant career. And I think when you're
Speaker 1: a kid and you want that, it's like it's in
Speaker 1: front of you, and that's kind of it's aspirational and
Speaker 1: somehow it's no, it's frightened. But when you start to
Speaker 1: get it, and you're getting it now, I mean this
Speaker 1: is like you you've getting the kudos and the stuff
Speaker 1: and the I'm sure the money's coming and the and
Speaker 1: they're all the flattery, which is the real currency is
Speaker 1: it really is? It's like how much flattery if you
Speaker 1: go for the person that it starts to freak you out?
Speaker 1: Does it? Does it freak you out a little bit?
Speaker 1: Because success can be a little scary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think maybe that's what what at first,
Speaker 2: like first moving to LA and you know, I kind
Speaker 2: of felt like I was, you know, skipped a step.
Speaker 2: I booked a commercial like a couple of months in
Speaker 2: LA and you know, I remember when that thing was
Speaker 2: on the air, I felt like Tom Cruise. You know,
Speaker 2: it was like and that's when the you know, the
Speaker 2: bad neighbor influences of celebrating that success took over and
Speaker 2: then you then you're kind of panicking of like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't let this go. You got to you know,
Speaker 2: like you can't. You can't rest on your laurels. So
Speaker 2: that's how do how do I keep keep this engine going?
Speaker 2: And now I feel like I've been you know, I've
Speaker 2: been in LA for twenty years, and I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm a little more stoic about those what's next thing,
Speaker 2: like a little like less, you know, over the moon,
Speaker 2: let's throw a party because you some milestone happened.
Speaker 1: It more like a yeah, yeah, you know. It's a job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a job, and that's that's a great job. Yeah
Speaker 1: it's a great job. But it is a job. And
Speaker 1: I think that what's kind of funny I always felt
Speaker 1: about Los Angeles and and show business and in fact
Speaker 1: the Internet as well. They all fall into the same category,
Speaker 1: which is it's only dangerous if you take it seriously, right.
Speaker 1: And what I admire very much about the skill that
Speaker 1: you have, and it's something that I also that made
Speaker 1: me feel free as well, is that no matter what happens,
Speaker 1: you can get on top of a soap box in
Speaker 1: the street and earn enough money paid the rent. True,
Speaker 1: And that's that's real freedom, my friend. That having a trade.
Speaker 1: Yeah that you know, well, yeah, you could throw money
Speaker 1: into a hat. It's kind of a you know, it's
Speaker 1: like musicians have the same thing. Like a proper musician.
Speaker 1: If you need an auto tune to make your music,
Speaker 1: then you have to make sure you can afford one, right,
Speaker 1: But if you can create it, and I imagine you
Speaker 1: create the illusions and this stuff, now that's part of
Speaker 1: what you do, right, is that you you design and
Speaker 1: make this stuff yourself.
Speaker 2: There's a yeah, I've got like a brain trust and
Speaker 2: you know in making the TV show and anything, all
Speaker 2: the live stuff, it's it's a lot of you know what,
Speaker 2: old ancient ideas. Can you reinvent? What's an old trick
Speaker 2: that you know? Like I've got all these tricks that
Speaker 2: you have, these old books and tons of books.
Speaker 1: You know this.
Speaker 2: But you know, you get to a point where when
Speaker 2: there's a lot of eyeballs on you, you can't just
Speaker 2: do stuff right off the shelf. Right, you can get
Speaker 2: away with that when you know you're doing gigs that
Speaker 2: aren't being put on the internet, you know, but when
Speaker 2: you're kind.
Speaker 1: Of you're the big guy. Now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now I can't, you know, I can't just you know,
Speaker 2: do the you know, a trick that I buy at
Speaker 2: the at the Hollywood Magic So you kind of have
Speaker 2: to figure out what your spin is on it. And
Speaker 2: I love I love that, you know, that's the hard work,
Speaker 2: but I do. I often think one day the luggage
Speaker 2: is not going to arrive. And I know it's not
Speaker 2: about the tricks and the props, right, but I know
Speaker 2: I could go to a Walmart, give me forty five
Speaker 2: minutes and I could put together an hour show, you know,
Speaker 2: and do it that night.
Speaker 1: I think you could get rid of a body the
Speaker 1: same way that you do, Like if you had inadvertently,
Speaker 1: you know, committed a homicide or the road would be
Speaker 1: a good, amazing race episode. Yeah, I just think, you know,
Speaker 1: if I mean, if you can put together stuff like
Speaker 1: that at Walmart, it's just a very useful skill to have,
Speaker 1: it is. Yes, I'm kind of impressed. A magician brain.
Speaker 1: The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand Up Tour continues throughout
Speaker 1: the United States in twenty twenty four. For a full
Speaker 1: list of dates and tickets, go to the Craig fergusonshow
Speaker 1: dot com slash tour. So you out there? Is there
Speaker 1: a kind of society of magicians? It's like, are you
Speaker 1: a member of the Magic Castle and all that?
Speaker 2: I remember the Magic Castle? Then there's a society of
Speaker 2: American magicians. There's an international brotherhood of.
Speaker 1: Magicians, all right, but ladies get two of us? They do? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Should they should work on that? The title title's a
Speaker 1: little antiquated but international. Answer question, I don't know any
Speaker 1: female magicians knows I think about it. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there are many, but I don't know any.
Speaker 2: There are there are many, but I mean obviously not enough, right,
Speaker 2: there are more and more. But there are some great
Speaker 2: female magicians. In fact, in Vegas. Jen Kramer the only,
Speaker 2: I believe, the only you know, female headliner magician in Vegas.
Speaker 2: And she does a great show and she's super funny,
Speaker 2: it's super sweet.
Speaker 1: What happens with magicians that are they like stand ups?
Speaker 1: Like do they get together after the show and complain
Speaker 1: about young people and stuff or older magicians who who
Speaker 1: did it the wrong way? Or they they I think
Speaker 1: they do.
Speaker 2: I mean, I have, you know, groups of magicians who
Speaker 2: will come to my shows, you know, and in any town,
Speaker 2: you know, the magicians kind of get together and they
Speaker 2: come to the show. But I know that what happens
Speaker 2: after is they go to Denny's and they rip it apart,
Speaker 2: you know, and there's a bunch of like you know,
Speaker 2: like magicians love to you know, the tall poppy thing obviously,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of anyone anyone who thinks their rise
Speaker 2: above you know, screw them. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: I remember when David Blaine first came out. Magicians just
Speaker 2: couldn't believe this guy was getting so famous doing tricks.
Speaker 1: Mute.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we I think, and I was guilty this well,
Speaker 2: I don't think we got the big picture, which is
Speaker 2: he's kind of reinventing the context of experiencing magic. You
Speaker 2: know that it's just a guy in a T shirt
Speaker 2: on the street, right, and he's just blowing people's minds,
Speaker 2: and we're living in that, you know, we get to
Speaker 2: see true human.
Speaker 1: He's a little bit of an underground for you, actually,
Speaker 1: isn't he He's a little bit of an influential figure
Speaker 1: if I think about what you do and he like
Speaker 1: he's older than you, and he but he well, I
Speaker 1: think you combine and what I don't think that David Blaine. Look,
Speaker 1: I'm a layman. I don't end it, but well, I
Speaker 1: don't know how good the illusions are, but they seem
Speaker 1: pretty impressive. But what he doesn't have is he doesn't
Speaker 1: have the charm. And I feel like with you, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's practiced or I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're just lucky. I suspect you're just lucky, that you're
Speaker 1: just you're you're charming and that helps with the magic.
Speaker 1: But charming people and stand ups usually have a tricky
Speaker 1: start in life. It was yours.
Speaker 2: I was by start prior to because I started doing
Speaker 2: magic when I was twelve. And you asked me when
Speaker 2: I was twelve, with the deck of cards in my pocket,
Speaker 2: what I wanted to be when I grew up, I
Speaker 2: would have said magician. So I'm kind of like this unicorn,
Speaker 2: you know, who got to call his call his profession
Speaker 2: at a young age and somehow pulled it off. I mean,
Speaker 2: and it's almost like I don't remember much of who
Speaker 2: I was before I discovered magic.
Speaker 1: I don't think I was charming. I think, like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't think charming. I knew I wanted to be
Speaker 1: those things I knew.
Speaker 2: I knew like I knew, I idolized like Johnny Carson
Speaker 2: and would watch them every night and stay up late
Speaker 2: with my parents. Johnny was a magician, Johnny started as
Speaker 2: a magician, and that kind of you know, I remember
Speaker 2: my dad telling me that off off hand and kind
Speaker 2: of like, because you see Johnny and you're like, how
Speaker 2: do you get to be that?
Speaker 1: How does that? How do you get that job? You know?
Speaker 2: And and I used to love seeing what jokes would
Speaker 2: make my parents laugh. And I didn't know why I
Speaker 2: didn't get the joke, but I would want to like
Speaker 2: decode it like a puzzle.
Speaker 1: Are you from a big family? No?
Speaker 2: So small? So I've got a sister. It was me,
Speaker 2: my sister, my mom and dad in Saint Louis and
Speaker 2: uh no cousins. So my parents siblings didn't have kids.
Speaker 1: You know, pretty quiet, thanks.
Speaker 2: Get pretty quiet? You know my mom's parents. I had
Speaker 2: both happy time in your life when you were a kid.
Speaker 1: So happy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: My sister and I often talk about how we I mean,
Speaker 2: we're very close. She and I are very close, she said,
Speaker 2: years younger than me. How we we you know, we
Speaker 2: both feel like we had the best childhood. You know,
Speaker 2: our parents were very supportive, but my dad was an
Speaker 2: airline pilot and he was gone a lot, right. My
Speaker 2: mom was a you know, interior designer in Saint Louis,
Speaker 2: but a workaholic and an incredible mom. But but you know,
Speaker 2: wouldn't get home till seven o'clock at night. So we
Speaker 2: were kind of a little bit latchkey kids, you know
Speaker 2: who we would we would you know, get get get
Speaker 2: home and make ourselves or snack ourselves.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that sounds a little familiar to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, like my dad works in the post office,
Speaker 1: but he was like he was on mail trains and
Speaker 1: he was away a lot, and my mom was busy.
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, my wife has this
Speaker 1: theory the all stand up I've said this a million
Speaker 1: times on the show, but that they all stand ups
Speaker 1: have the same mom, which is cold, with bad boundaries
Speaker 1: and every start of us hate to goes, oh fuck
Speaker 1: you man.
Speaker 2: But in all magicians, I think have the same mom
Speaker 2: that just smothers them with love and tells them they
Speaker 2: can do no rock.
Speaker 1: Right. I think it is a little bit like that.
Speaker 1: And I think which was just kind of interesting because
Speaker 1: you've got a little of both. Your mom was a workaholic,
Speaker 1: but clearly you adored her and she and she adores you.
Speaker 1: So it's like and you you she came up with
Speaker 1: just incredible. So clearly was invested emotionally in what you
Speaker 1: were doing and support evolve it. So you get a
Speaker 1: mixture of both, which makes perfect sense. You're a stand
Speaker 1: up magician or a magician's stand up. Yeah, you've got
Speaker 1: the recipe, just correct, that's perfect. What about no, because
Speaker 1: you were a dadom a dad? Now I loved me
Speaker 1: and dad? Yeah, you know, I can like it.
Speaker 2: It's the only thing I always knew that I wanted
Speaker 2: to be. Besides being a magician, I always knew I
Speaker 2: also wanted.
Speaker 1: To be a dad.
Speaker 2: What age are your kids? Five and one? So five
Speaker 2: and a half and one and a half, that's actually
Speaker 2: pretty good. You're in for like the ten year good bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah and then and then I guess and you know,
Speaker 2: the five and a half year old. You know, he's
Speaker 2: at the point where you know, we have these amazing
Speaker 2: times and moments, but he can be difficult, you know,
Speaker 2: like it can be difficult. And now it lets me
Speaker 2: really enjoy where my daughter who's one and a half
Speaker 2: is where she's not difficult yet, you know, like because
Speaker 2: I feel like I took that time for granted with
Speaker 2: my son where it's you know, they're just angels, you know,
Speaker 2: And now you know, I guess.
Speaker 1: Didn't have that again, Yeah, I know. I mean it
Speaker 1: seems to be circular though. I mean, look, everybody's different,
Speaker 1: every kid is different. But seems to me like sometimes
Speaker 1: when I had trouble with my boys and then to
Speaker 1: two hours later, it would be fine, you know, but
Speaker 1: they are unpredictable. I think when you have kids, you
Speaker 1: go from being the star of your own movie to
Speaker 1: being the extra in a movie about someone else. Interesting.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, here's the thing that's coming up for
Speaker 1: you as well. This happened to me right here in
Speaker 1: La when my oldest boy was about fourteen, fifteen something
Speaker 1: like that. We were at Gelson's. We're just getting some
Speaker 1: groceries and stuff, and I saw a girl look at him.
Speaker 1: And she wasn't looking as she was a young woman,
Speaker 1: she was a teenage girl. But she wasn't looking at
Speaker 1: a guy with his son. She was looking at a
Speaker 1: guy with his dad. He was the guy, And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, my god, I'm the dad, he's the guy.
Speaker 1: And it was kind of a weird movement that but
Speaker 1: I can't love it now because I'm just getting older
Speaker 1: and older and older and older. What the fuck is
Speaker 1: going on with it now? And just like collapsing physically.
Speaker 1: But it's it's a weird rite. I love what goes
Speaker 1: on with with ambition for someone like you, you know, like,
Speaker 1: is it like a residency in Vegas?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Uh, playing Radio City? Is it? Is it stadium magic?
Speaker 1: Is there such a thing? Is there? I know, it's
Speaker 1: it's crossed my mind, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean these days seeing these comics who you
Speaker 2: wouldn't think are stadium comics, you know, just become so
Speaker 2: popular that they can play stadiums in it.
Speaker 1: And they're not really stadium comics. They're they're comics playing
Speaker 1: your stadium, playing in the stadium that has giant screens,
Speaker 1: So people get together and wretch giant screens, right, so
Speaker 1: you could do close up magic.
Speaker 2: And I do use screens like because I don't have
Speaker 2: big boxes. I don't, you know, everything I do in
Speaker 2: my show like and I don't know, I think it's
Speaker 2: came out of just practicality, Like I never, you know,
Speaker 2: I was doing gigs, you know, private parties and stuff
Speaker 2: where I just had to arrive with everything.
Speaker 1: I just set everything up myself.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so like all those kind of big those
Speaker 2: big toys, I think always felt like I always never
Speaker 2: wanted to come off magician ing, like there was something
Speaker 2: like I love.
Speaker 1: Magic, but I'm right, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2: I think I always like magic was you know what
Speaker 2: the first thing I discovered that I was good at
Speaker 2: that made me want to perform. But I always, deep
Speaker 2: down just really wanted to make people laugh more than anything,
Speaker 2: Like I just because of the people that I looked
Speaker 2: up to and admired, and I just felt like that
Speaker 2: was this thing that you know, you didn't need to
Speaker 2: have a trick on you to be able to be
Speaker 2: funny make people laugh, you know. So incorporating that with
Speaker 2: the magic was always important to me, And I think
Speaker 2: my first goal, my milestone, was just to be taken
Speaker 2: seriously as a comedian magician, you know, like because as
Speaker 2: a magician it's you know, we're kind of the the
Speaker 2: chiropractors of the entertainment industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a little bit like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: the hate that Cara top gets for being a prop comic.
Speaker 1: But the weird thing is, like I know Scott and
Speaker 1: you ma'am i've met him. Yeah, I mean he's a
Speaker 1: weird guy. But I defy you to go and see
Speaker 1: that show and not laugh. It really is, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's crazy that he gets such hate from comedians and
Speaker 1: then you get to know him and you're going, well,
Speaker 1: you don't even need to get to know him, just
Speaker 1: go and see him and you're like, my god, this
Speaker 1: is hilarious. And he I mean, clearly that's a it's
Speaker 1: kind of a high. I mean, he's way more. It's
Speaker 1: just prop comedy with it. It's not like, but.
Speaker 2: He'll do it chunk of just I'm just standing up
Speaker 2: of just between the cases.
Speaker 1: But he won't do anything approaching the level of illusion
Speaker 1: that you do. It's not anything like that, right he
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just joke, joke, joke, visual joke, ordinary joke,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's like, do you when you're
Speaker 1: constructing a show, do you think I've done too much?
Speaker 1: You know, behold the dove and now I have to
Speaker 1: you know, two guys walk into a bar or.
Speaker 2: Something, I do you know, for me, it's like as
Speaker 2: I'm constructing a show like right now, you know, I
Speaker 2: just finished this rank show that came out on Netflix
Speaker 2: about a month ago, and you know, did Magic Humans.
Speaker 1: And I kind of feel like, gosh, what trick? What about?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: What tricks are left? You know?
Speaker 2: Like and I'm sure just like a stand up has
Speaker 2: the illusion of writer's block, you know before.
Speaker 1: They kind of work through it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same thing because it's you know, I
Speaker 2: kind of want to do something that feels like I'm
Speaker 2: not just doing a trick. I wanted to be about
Speaker 2: something or I want it to be autobiographical or or
Speaker 2: have have some some meat on the bone.
Speaker 1: You know. It's great though, I mean I think that
Speaker 1: that's fabulous. That makes it a more complete experience for
Speaker 1: the audience as well. It makes it personal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some message, some some kernel of wisdom or question
Speaker 2: that lingers with you, you know you, But you come.
Speaker 1: Of age in an odd time for an artist though,
Speaker 1: because the beast, the headless borg that is entertainment is
Speaker 1: so fucking ravenous. Yeah, if you repeat yourself more. I
Speaker 1: mean I've taken Haye on this very podcast for telling
Speaker 1: a story twice, you know what I mean. Well, that's that.
Speaker 2: That's the thing is that you know, people start to
Speaker 2: get hip to, you know, just the same magic plot
Speaker 2: dressed up. They're like the same as that other thing
Speaker 2: you did, but you're you know, a marshmallow instead of
Speaker 2: a ball or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that that's what's tough, especially when you know
Speaker 2: magicians for years have honed their act over the course
Speaker 2: of a lifetime, right and you know, and then people
Speaker 2: can binge it in a night and then they expect
Speaker 2: something new a week later.
Speaker 1: It's a very greedy machine.
Speaker 2: Greedy machine, but also a machine that has a is
Speaker 2: very forgetful, right, Like I find a little bit short
Speaker 2: you know, short term, it's easy to I think, oh god,
Speaker 2: everyone's going to know that this is that bit from here,
Speaker 2: and then I'll realize like, no, just you know, people
Speaker 2: a year or two later, you put a little new
Speaker 2: touch on it and it's going to feel brand new.
Speaker 2: At least with with magic is people might remember a
Speaker 2: punchline to a joke, or you know, they want to
Speaker 2: go and hear their favorite song, but with magic, you know,
Speaker 2: you can see it once and enjoy yourself. They go
Speaker 2: again and it's like, oh, I think I'm gonna watch
Speaker 2: closer this time. Still enjoy it, still blow.
Speaker 1: There was a guy that I saw. Maybe you remember it,
Speaker 1: you'll know his name. I can't remember his name. It
Speaker 1: was like one of the few times I've been in
Speaker 1: the Magic Castle. I think he was Brazilian, okay, and
Speaker 1: he was an older jased on his wax, based on
Speaker 1: his wags, it's like he actually was wearing pants and
Speaker 1: a jacket and he was very old school. And he
Speaker 1: was in a small room. And the magician that I
Speaker 1: was there with said, come and see this guy, because
Speaker 1: this is the guy all the magicians are coming to sing.
Speaker 1: And he was some guy who was seth America. I
Speaker 1: think Brazilian. He had one arm, he only had one
Speaker 1: of them. I think he genuine lonely, like Argentinian. Argentinian.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a renee LaVar, that's the guy. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: he used to say he would do a trick and
Speaker 1: then he would say it cannot be done slower, yes,
Speaker 1: And then he would do it slower and you still
Speaker 1: wouldn't know what was going on. Yeah, I never saw
Speaker 1: anything like that. My life is he is he good?
Speaker 1: Is so good? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean I would say one of the you know,
Speaker 2: on Mount rushmore of close up magic maestros, you know,
Speaker 2: and he's recently he's passed away since I mean, it
Speaker 2: was a long time. He killed him, right, he killed him.
Speaker 2: It partly it could be done slower. He's still doing it,
Speaker 2: but he's doing even slower now. He had gosh, I
Speaker 2: don't know if he had, if he didn't have one
Speaker 2: of his hands, or if it was just you know,
Speaker 2: it was a fake thing, unusable. No, it wasn't a
Speaker 2: fake thing, all right, I mean, if it was. He
Speaker 2: played the long game, because it was for decades and
Speaker 2: decades he would perform with his hand in his pocket, right,
Speaker 2: and he would do it all with one hand.
Speaker 1: Card tricks.
Speaker 2: But then his famous trick was three I think three
Speaker 2: balls in a cup now, not the cups and balls,
Speaker 2: but like a little tea cup or an espresso shot
Speaker 2: cup with a little mug, and then three little balls
Speaker 2: of clay and he would say, watch he would drop
Speaker 2: him in one, two, and the third one he just
Speaker 2: throw it away, put in his hocket and he said,
Speaker 2: can't be done slow, and then he took the cup
Speaker 2: over and there's three again, and you're like, okay, I
Speaker 2: want to watch it close. One two, get rid of
Speaker 2: the third one, three again, and he would do it
Speaker 2: over and over again. Can't do it slower, can't do
Speaker 2: it slower. And he was so famous for this. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, that's just never seen it. And I think
Speaker 2: it was ed Alonzo that that took me in to see.
Speaker 2: I was there and he was a friend of a friend,
Speaker 2: and he said, no, you come in and see this guy,
Speaker 2: because I remember, it's a guy that pulls the chicken
Speaker 2: of his pants, isn't he whoa wait, well, out of
Speaker 2: his pants? Where then put the chicken? These days it's well,
Speaker 2: he has the duck from the straight.
Speaker 1: It's a duck from a straight jacket. He's not a
Speaker 1: chicken from his pants. It's a completely different show. It's
Speaker 1: a different show, and it wasn't in the Magic cast.
Speaker 1: But but that, I mean working with that, I've never
Speaker 1: seen you do it with animals either. You don't do
Speaker 1: that well.
Speaker 2: So when I first got into Magic, and I think
Speaker 2: we're on age fourteen fifteen, I discovered Lance Bert and
Speaker 2: I'm sure you had lance on your show a couple
Speaker 2: of times. He would do his dove act that he
Speaker 2: was famous for, which is him in a tuxedo and
Speaker 2: kind of classical music and these you know, handkerchief boom
Speaker 2: dove gloves turned into doves and there's nothing I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: even to this day, like there's nothing more, you know,
Speaker 2: eye candy tricks per minute magic in your face.
Speaker 1: You don't need to speak the language.
Speaker 2: You're just watching and it's incredible, Like his six minute
Speaker 2: dove act is just you know, the best piece of
Speaker 2: magic I've ever seen. I of course wanted to do that,
Speaker 2: so I got on the VHS tapes and you know,
Speaker 2: by fifteen, I had like thirteen doves in a cage
Speaker 2: on our porch and I would you know, obviously I'm
Speaker 2: spoiling too much. The doves have to go somewhere, right,
Speaker 2: so they're probably you know, secreted in your pants or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I would do this dove act, and.
Speaker 1: You know, it's an animal cruelty. I expect it's gone.
Speaker 2: It's gone, it's gone out of fashion a little bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, you listen, I mean I was never I was.
Speaker 2: I loved my doves, you know, very very much, but
Speaker 2: you are doing something quite unnatural to them, right. They
Speaker 2: have to be at a dark place for a little while,
Speaker 2: and then they.
Speaker 1: Have to be in front of a well, that's why
Speaker 1: you should do rabbits, because rabbits live in a hole
Speaker 1: under the ground. They don't mind a dark place. That's true.
Speaker 1: You put on a rabbit, it's like I'm home.
Speaker 2: But then the rabbits all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 2: what the hell?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, that's true. It would be a fright. Now,
Speaker 1: you're probably best staying away from all.
Speaker 2: I did, like the I cut it down to one
Speaker 2: dove eventually. And when I first moved to La, I
Speaker 2: was doing kids' birthday parties, so I had a dove
Speaker 2: and a bunny. I would open the shore with a
Speaker 2: dove and I'm closed with the bunny, book ended with
Speaker 2: the animals. But I was one time the dove flew
Speaker 2: into a tree in a backyard and I had another
Speaker 2: gig to go to, so I was trying to like
Speaker 2: not panic, but I was like, Okay, I'll come back later.
Speaker 2: And I came back later, and they were not happy
Speaker 2: to see me when I came back because they explained
Speaker 2: that shortly after I left, a hawk ate the dove
Speaker 2: in front of the kids.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's probably best you stay away from
Speaker 1: the kid's birthday parties now. I mean it's although I'm
Speaker 1: sure is it legal even to do that with animals now?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean if tastes of God to
Speaker 1: have changed, I mean people know, like remember like circuses
Speaker 1: used to have elephants holding each oy of those tales.
Speaker 2: You could just know so much now that even if
Speaker 2: we see an animal not mistreated, just the idea of
Speaker 2: that now, you know, like.
Speaker 1: This animal is basically a prop.
Speaker 2: After this beautiful performance where it looks like it's you know,
Speaker 2: happy and funning, flirting about, it's going to go into
Speaker 2: a cage and into a car and back to you know,
Speaker 2: it's hard to not think.
Speaker 1: About what about the tigers, the Siegfried and Roy thing?
Speaker 1: Is that still going on in Vegas? The tiger rights
Speaker 1: and stuff or this thing?
Speaker 2: I don't know that tigers are happening much these days. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think didn't end well, No, that's true. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I had I had my brother in law's
Speaker 2: his wife just went to the zoo yesterday. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: uh take their kid. And there were protesters this his
Speaker 2: mother's day. They're protesters saying, I hope you enjoy your
Speaker 2: Mother's Day while you're supporting the the kidnapping of animals,
Speaker 2: you know, so even.
Speaker 1: The La Zoo. So that just to take my boys,
Speaker 1: I'm going to the zoo. Yeah, Like I said, the Flamingos,
Speaker 1: like I don't pee on themselves to stay cool and
Speaker 1: to stay pink. That's right, Yeah, And the is that true?
Speaker 1: Is that what keeps them pink? I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I was thinking of the John Watters movie. There
Speaker 1: ye different, different type of thing, but the smell of
Speaker 1: the Flamingos because they pee on themselves to keep going,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't care for. But everything else. Did
Speaker 1: you see the baby Eppop?
Speaker 2: I guess it's growing up now that they didn't see
Speaker 2: the baby Hippi message. But I like it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: the l A Zoo you think. I mean, sure there
Speaker 2: was the blackfish the Sea world time, you know, and
Speaker 2: it's easy to get against that. But yeah, but it's like,
Speaker 2: are we heading to a place where we're not even
Speaker 2: enjoy animals in a way of learning about them?
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, but I don't. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not qualified to talk on this, but you know what,
Speaker 1: we should get somebody on this podcast and then you
Speaker 1: have to come back and defend your position, maybe you
Speaker 1: could lose lose, you know, using very for animals, like
Speaker 1: animals like maybe a you know, a snail or you know,
Speaker 1: a hamster, something not in vertebrate, but it's something that's
Speaker 1: small enough that you're not really or yeah you're not,
Speaker 1: but that again, hamster is any going by impressed? A
Speaker 1: hamster at your pants? It's like Richard Gere years ago,
Speaker 1: a standing ovation because you can't sit down. That is
Speaker 1: the oldest jogging the world that we've done that again.
Speaker 1: But so how does it go in terms of your
Speaker 1: young magician and you come out here you know clearly
Speaker 1: you're married now, I am? Is there a kind of
Speaker 1: sexy rock and roll part of magic? Are there are
Speaker 1: the followers who who kind of are interested in new
Speaker 1: romantically because of what you may have of your sleeve
Speaker 1: as it were?
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I will say there's something there's
Speaker 2: something so magnetic and mysterious about magic and magicians.
Speaker 1: I agree, right, I agree.
Speaker 2: I mean the just like comedy, you know, like any
Speaker 2: any any comedian. I mean I have several comedian friends
Speaker 2: who you know, don't want if you're gonna if if
Speaker 2: you've got a girl who they might be interested or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's like, just have her come to my show, like
Speaker 2: I want their first depression to see me doing my things,
Speaker 2: almost like you're afraid of being the meeting a normal person.
Speaker 2: It's like you love so but there's something alluring about
Speaker 2: defying the laws of the universe.
Speaker 1: And like how do they do this?
Speaker 2: You know that is obviously naturally attractive where you know
Speaker 2: in that book the game, you know, like one of
Speaker 2: the techniques is, you know, learn close up tricks, you know,
Speaker 2: to to entertain people on dates. There's something romantic and and.
Speaker 1: Just I think it's quite cynical though that because I
Speaker 1: know there's there's stuff on Lane. There's like in sales
Speaker 1: in the Middle East to put together clips of me
Speaker 1: talking to actresses on the old late night showing them
Speaker 1: like flirt like Craig Ferguson. I'm like, yeah, that's not
Speaker 1: really what's happening there. That's a late night and then
Speaker 1: I don't see these people after that, so it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of like it's almost like, you know, bring doves
Speaker 1: out of your sleeves, like you know, it's no you
Speaker 1: can know.
Speaker 2: And for me, the girls that I was always drawn
Speaker 2: to are girls that certainly weren't into magicians, you know,
Speaker 2: like it was almost like I had to overcome what
Speaker 2: being a magician, being a magician, you know, or just
Speaker 2: because of all the things that are preaking, you know,
Speaker 2: the baggage that magicians bring along with.
Speaker 1: Well, they do have historically a kind of creepy vibe,
Speaker 1: I mean, but I think that was more just changing taste,
Speaker 1: like the like a society changed, you know, a sort
Speaker 1: of mysterious gentleman with a cape and became a little
Speaker 1: more jack the rippery and a little less gentlemanly. I
Speaker 1: guess you know what I mean. It's that's under that cape. Nothing,
Speaker 1: nothing's under that case. Yeah, yeah, take a look. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as opposed to a giant, you know, killing. No, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a it's fashion, I think as
Speaker 1: well as much as anything performances is subject to fashion.
Speaker 1: Even stand up, there will be jokes that you can't
Speaker 1: do no sure, I think, I mean, I don't lament it.
Speaker 1: It's just what it is, you know. It's just that
Speaker 1: you know, now it is seen as mean spirited. Perhaps
Speaker 1: it was always mean spirited, but it didn't feel that
Speaker 1: way at the time, or you weren't aware of it.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: If anything, there's this cachet of you know, a good
Speaker 2: magician is maybe hard to trust because you think, well,
Speaker 2: they're just really good at lying. How do you ever
Speaker 2: know when they're telling the truth. Well, do you know
Speaker 2: they don't have a secret life going on?
Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, I think that's probably true. Yeah. Remember that
Speaker 1: movie with Christian Bale and what is it called The
Speaker 1: Jackman Hugh jack Prestige, The Prestige. Did you like that one?
Speaker 1: Love that? Yeah? Was that the one? Maybe it was
Speaker 1: another one. There was one of them that said to
Speaker 1: be a magician, you have to be the smartest man
Speaker 1: of them. Does that sounds like Michaelcaine. Yeah, it must
Speaker 1: be there. If you want to be a magician, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to be the smartest man in the room. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well do you think that's true? Yeah? Well I guess
Speaker 1: is that the draw for it? Then? For a little kid?
Speaker 1: Were you Tobby as a kid?
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't so SPRAWNI I was short and little short.
Speaker 2: Maybe I did the same thing the gold frock of
Speaker 2: curly hair.
Speaker 1: See I was I was. My nickname was Tubby when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. So I think like achieving my
Speaker 1: way out of being Tubby was a real driving force
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: I was like, god'll not be Tobby. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: I just was. I The draw of magic for me
Speaker 2: was that I was. It felt like it made me
Speaker 2: special for the first time, you know, like.
Speaker 1: I was not.
Speaker 2: I was mediocre at all extracurricular activities. But when I
Speaker 2: discovered magic, I was the only magician in my school right,
Speaker 2: and so automatically I was special and then I was okay,
Speaker 2: I was decent at it.
Speaker 1: So that made me clearly special that people would.
Speaker 2: Want to be like, hey, come over here show it's
Speaker 2: that trick, you know, like you're kind of like, wow, finally,
Speaker 2: yeah special.
Speaker 1: You know what about the idea of the press, these
Speaker 1: trick the you know, the water tank for Houdini and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Is that is that a
Speaker 1: thing for you? Is there is there an illusion like
Speaker 1: I want to have a crack at that. I have
Speaker 1: a crack at that trick. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean there's bits in my show that I
Speaker 2: that I that are kind of my my babies, you know,
Speaker 2: my opener, my closer that I do, which I do
Speaker 2: you know, I want to shoot us.
Speaker 1: You're asking like what's next?
Speaker 2: You know what I want to do is and I'm
Speaker 2: going to do later this year is like a live
Speaker 2: stand up magic special kind of like a Netflix stand
Speaker 2: up special, but do it live, but well not live,
Speaker 2: but just live on stand I would love to do
Speaker 2: it live. I don't think I'm famous enough for Netflix
Speaker 2: to get behind it as a live event, you know,
Speaker 2: Brady roast Yeah, just to know that I didn't No, no,
Speaker 2: like roast man, I don't get it.
Speaker 1: I just don't get it. I got I'm like, why
Speaker 1: why would a person put themselves in that position? Like
Speaker 1: was Tom Brady going to get over that money? Money?
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what it is. Of course, you know that.
Speaker 2: I would say the big takeaway that everyone at least
Speaker 2: was in my mind, it's like, wow, what a what
Speaker 2: a good sport? You know, like all the little jabs
Speaker 2: kind of all forget You forget them by the next morning.
Speaker 2: But you're like, wow, he really took it like a champ.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I wouldn't be I don't think i'd
Speaker 1: be that good a sport.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be be on replay. In my head, it
Speaker 2: would I'd never sleep again. Yeah, like Jesus can do that.
Speaker 2: But I don't know anyway. So is there a big thing?
Speaker 2: Is there a big illusion, you know, not for a
Speaker 2: stadium show? Is there a stadium show? I mean you
Speaker 2: said you were thinking there has really been. I mean
Speaker 2: that's the end game for you. I think it has
Speaker 2: to be go to that point. Yeah, I mean Steve
Speaker 2: Martin did Arenas right, Yeah, just arrow in his head.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talented stand up as well though, I'm very talented,
Speaker 1: very artistic in his leanings. And also a musician. Are
Speaker 1: you religious? Are you? Are you musical? What else? I love? Okay?
Speaker 2: So, I mean I love music. I feel like all magicians,
Speaker 2: many magicians really wanted to be a musician because there's
Speaker 2: all stand ups well and there. I found that so
Speaker 2: many musicians love magic and wish they could do magic right, so,
Speaker 2: which means you can't.
Speaker 1: Win the same with same with musicians. I've met famous
Speaker 1: musicians like I want to try stand up, please, don't
Speaker 1: just continue to play the guitar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm not religious. I was raised
Speaker 2: going to church and stuff, but that kind of all
Speaker 2: fell to the way side flavor flavor of Presbyterian Presbyterians.
Speaker 1: So there's not a lot of tricks going on in
Speaker 1: Presbyterian there's no there's no kind of biscuits turning in
Speaker 1: Jesus or wine turning.
Speaker 2: And I mean it's all representative, right you do a
Speaker 2: turn a staff into a serpent. You know, there's good
Speaker 2: material in the Bible, none of it's on its feet,
Speaker 2: you know, Like it wasn't a church that had the props.
Speaker 1: Well that ye see, that said. I was raised the
Speaker 1: same way. I mean we were told we were the
Speaker 1: chosen people, but all we got was a white room
Speaker 1: and a eater, right. It Like I'm not sure that's that,
Speaker 1: but I think the whole vibe of old religions seemed
Speaker 1: to be you're the chosen people and everyone else is
Speaker 1: a little not the children. Are you raising your kids Jewish? Jewish?
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, that's fine. Yeah, I think that's good.
Speaker 2: Timing is great, Yeah, that was It's a good choice.
Speaker 1: I like, my wife is Jewish, my my oldest son's
Speaker 1: mother's Jewish. He's Jewish. You know.
Speaker 2: It's like yeah, and honestly, like I I love it.
Speaker 2: I feel like like I did you convert? I didn't convert,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Because there's a price to pay as a gentleman if
Speaker 1: you want to convert. I mean yeah late for yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Every time I go and see my doctor every year
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, Jeff Grant. He's my doctor. He's an
Speaker 1: ol Jewish gentleman. I love him. He's my friend. We
Speaker 1: hang out when we're not working together. But every time
Speaker 1: he gives me the exam downstairs every year, he looks
Speaker 1: at my penis and he says, you know, I can
Speaker 1: fix that for you, and like, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: want you to do that. So, but that's interesting, now,
Speaker 1: you So you are you quite observant?
Speaker 2: We do we do Shabbata on Fridays one we're all
Speaker 2: in the same place. When I'm not out of town.
Speaker 2: We do the you know, a proper passover. We don't
Speaker 2: go to temple every week. Right, So we're about as
Speaker 2: so technically less observant than I was as a Presbyterian,
Speaker 2: but Presbyterian, you know, for me, it's really just about
Speaker 2: the there's just you know, kind of just the cultural
Speaker 2: and the rituals and the tradition.
Speaker 1: The tradition.
Speaker 2: It just feels, you know, there's nothing I can't get behind,
Speaker 2: you know, and it feels really good.
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that there are aspects of all
Speaker 1: areas of all worship. And I'm not a religious person
Speaker 1: at all in the sense that I follow any doctrine,
Speaker 1: but I I'm kind of interested in all of it.
Speaker 1: I think that the the idea of it. But I wonder,
Speaker 1: as as a magician, does it make you cynical about that? Well?
Speaker 2: I think yeah, magic makes you cynical about a lot.
Speaker 2: But you know, because you know, every night you're you know,
Speaker 2: you're you're you know exactly what you're doing and how
Speaker 2: you're doing it, and you know, you kind of have
Speaker 2: this a little bit of a you know magicians called
Speaker 2: magician's guilt, where you kind of feel guilty knowing that
Speaker 2: what you're doing is so simple, yet it's making people
Speaker 2: experience these profound levels of wonder, you know, best case scenario,
Speaker 2: you know, like it's also what I love about it,
Speaker 2: but I also you know, I just it's hard to
Speaker 2: once you just like when you work in television, it's
Speaker 2: hard to watch reality TV or anything that is saying
Speaker 2: that this is happening right now without being like, you know, no,
Speaker 2: it's not. There's this this this like everything that happens
Speaker 2: behind the scenes. And I think with magic, the magician
Speaker 2: brain is always coming up with ways to solve problems,
Speaker 2: you know, so it is a bit of.
Speaker 1: A superpower outside of politically, Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like,
Speaker 1: how do I make it so I can do it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you remove yourself from the age of miracles, like
Speaker 1: I would love to experience a ghost. I would love
Speaker 1: to have been to Scotland. Yet I haven't been to Scotland. Yea.
Speaker 2: My best magician pal, my right hand man, my co
Speaker 2: creator for Magic for Humans, is a Scottish gentleman, Stuart McLeod.
Speaker 1: Right, there's a lot of Scottish magicians, actly, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then they kind of there's small dark rooms you yes,
Speaker 1: well you can.
Speaker 2: And he's got you know, he's he's a lovely father
Speaker 2: of almost two coming soon and he but he's got this,
Speaker 2: you know, you can tell he's got a darkness within.
Speaker 1: Him that it's just part of his power. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But he was part of a magic duo, Barry and Stewart,
Speaker 2: which I don't know if you ever bearver on your radar, very.
Speaker 1: I don't know them. But that wouldn't mean anything because
Speaker 1: I know that clue I don't allow each other. Well,
Speaker 1: you know why I got to tell you why I
Speaker 1: had magic week on the late night show. I used
Speaker 1: to have Magic Week every week on the Late night Show,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't really because I loved magic, although I
Speaker 1: do love magic. What happened to was a friend of
Speaker 1: mine who worked on the show, was in Las Vegas
Speaker 1: and he got a little out of control and he
Speaker 1: inadvertently stole a vehicle and got about twenty yards down
Speaker 1: the strip and got arrested. I mean, he was out
Speaker 1: of his face, and he was meant to be on
Speaker 1: the show that night, no, as he just worked on
Speaker 1: the show. And so I get a call and they said, hey,
Speaker 1: I won't say his name, but he was in Vegas
Speaker 1: and he's in jail. I'm like, what the fuck is
Speaker 1: going on? So eventually I make a call to a
Speaker 1: guy who calls another guy, and eventually I talked to
Speaker 1: this judge in Las Vegas, who I'm sure is no
Speaker 1: longer a judge in Las Vegas. It was twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: and I'm talking to the judge and I'm saying, look,
Speaker 1: this guy, it's not a thing. He clearly made a mistake.
Speaker 1: We'll get him out of there. And he went. But
Speaker 1: you know, it was pretty bad, and the cops were
Speaker 1: mad and I said, well, you know, look if it
Speaker 1: was any that can do it, and he said, Blacks,
Speaker 1: I do represent a few magicians. The judge said that
Speaker 1: the fu so I said, the judge is also a
Speaker 1: manager judge. So I said, yeah, well magic. We caught
Speaker 1: the show, and so I enjoyed it so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: and look the magicians that he was represent and you
Speaker 1: know they were It wasn't you, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: It was other magicians, but you had his roster, and
Speaker 1: I loved it. It was exactly the kind of vibe
Speaker 1: I was going for on that show, which was kind
Speaker 1: of like, okay, no one knew it was secretly community service.
Speaker 1: It was sort of community service. It was a mixture
Speaker 1: of corruption, the mafia and the communities there. The magicians
Speaker 1: were all the world. It was very interesting. There was
Speaker 1: certainly a lot going on behind the scenes that that
Speaker 1: nobody really got to see.
Speaker 2: Wow, that got your foot in the door, and then
Speaker 2: you were no longer forced to do it.
Speaker 1: You did it willingly. Well I did it willingly. And
Speaker 1: also I had a son who was fascinated by When
Speaker 1: Milo was you know, I guess three four years old.
Speaker 1: He used to watch this old timey stuff there was
Speaker 1: a guy who used to bring alarm clocks out of
Speaker 1: his hat, would you know. I was talking about back
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties or something there, and they would
Speaker 1: come out ringing, right, I would bring these alarm clocks
Speaker 1: out of his hat. And I remember it was when
Speaker 1: DVDs were in the back of the car and I
Speaker 1: would put the DVD in if we were going on
Speaker 1: a road trip, and I would just hear him laughing
Speaker 1: his ass off and go another alarm clock out of
Speaker 1: Was that another alarm at four? At four? Yeah? He
Speaker 1: made it. I mean he's he's in he directs animated movies.
Speaker 1: Now it's like whether he'll make much more money than me.
Speaker 1: But but he was fascinated by it, and then so
Speaker 1: I got I got kind of into it then. And
Speaker 1: then he was really into Chris Angel when he was
Speaker 1: a kid, and Chris invited on the show, and he
Speaker 1: was so sweet and such a nice guy, and he's
Speaker 1: a great performer, but he was also really nice to
Speaker 1: be around. And that really it just kind of drew
Speaker 1: me in a little bit. Yeah. Right, magicians are very
Speaker 1: it's very seductive kind of world. I can see how
Speaker 1: and it has that in our sanctum feel if you
Speaker 1: know this trick, you're kind of further in, And if
Speaker 1: you know this trick, you're further in, and that appeals
Speaker 1: to my inherent sense of you know, low self worth.
Speaker 2: Well, it's this little secret society because it requires so much,
Speaker 2: you know, solitary work, you know, where you're practicing or
Speaker 2: as a teen, you're just kind of reading and you're obsessing,
Speaker 2: and just like I'm sure with comedy, kind of like
Speaker 2: you know, no one's going to write your act for you.
Speaker 2: You're kind of trying to just figure it out. And
Speaker 2: then you kind of find this group of people who
Speaker 2: all did that same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you find your volitary thing.
Speaker 2: You find your people, and you have this past and
Speaker 2: common and magicians in particularly, you know, have a you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's so much magic history and there's so many
Speaker 2: tricks that have been done, and there's so many references
Speaker 2: and terms, and you know, like you almost have a
Speaker 2: secret language that you can throw around with magicians. You know,
Speaker 2: like Stuart McCloud and I like we can kind of
Speaker 2: read each other's minds and have a conversation where you
Speaker 2: don't know what we're talking about, but we're kind of
Speaker 2: you know, coming up with a trick or kind of
Speaker 2: figuring out a method and it's.
Speaker 1: It's really cool. Is there is there a kind of
Speaker 1: Anthony Bourdain world where you can you know, you can
Speaker 1: go to other societies and other cultures, you know, like
Speaker 1: when Tony Burdema go and see how Libyans eat food
Speaker 1: or how the food was in Vietnam? Is there is
Speaker 1: there that for magic? Is there is there a because
Speaker 1: every society has their their magi, sure they mean, so
Speaker 1: is there a world where you can go and do that?
Speaker 1: Is that? I mean totally?
Speaker 2: I mean what traveling around the world and dipping into other.
Speaker 1: Other countries magic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean David Blaine did a little bit of that,
Speaker 2: and you know where he would go to, you know,
Speaker 2: more remote places in the world really just to show
Speaker 2: how magic is this universal language, you know, right, so
Speaker 2: you'd watch him amaze people who maybe who have never
Speaker 2: seen a television before. But there, you know, he's making
Speaker 2: berries go for one hand to the other.
Speaker 1: It's very visceral.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, even despite the language barrier, it's
Speaker 2: this magic universal language where.
Speaker 1: It's a human desire, isn't it. There's a human desire
Speaker 1: for food and there's a human desire for wonder, but
Speaker 1: what you supply is wonder with the you know, the
Speaker 1: kind of wink that this is not really magic. I'm
Speaker 1: just very clever.
Speaker 2: Right it's empty calorie wonder right now.
Speaker 1: But is there is there a part of you that
Speaker 1: still that believes in I don't know, know Santa Claus,
Speaker 1: but but in in something beyond the palea you? You know,
Speaker 1: is there a would you like, is there a UFO
Speaker 1: or a ghost or is there a something that you
Speaker 1: go I can't explain that, and it makes me feel weird.
Speaker 1: I mean the I mean the universe. Where do we
Speaker 1: all come from?
Speaker 2: Is this explainable thing that obviously religion all of them
Speaker 2: can explain it for you in some way shape form.
Speaker 1: I mean I satisfactorily, I think exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, like I I believe that ghosts could exist.
Speaker 2: I believe that aliens probably do exist. I would love
Speaker 2: to you know, like all that. It fascinates you know,
Speaker 2: how where like how insignificant are we, you know in
Speaker 2: the big scheme of things?
Speaker 1: How many of us are there? Is all so?
Speaker 2: But but I don't in terms of magic, like even
Speaker 2: though it's clear that I am am I'm a liar, right,
Speaker 2: I'm a fancy. You're a performer. I'm a performer. I'm
Speaker 2: spinning a yarn and I'm trying to create this wonder
Speaker 2: and illusion. You know, Even then people still are like,
Speaker 2: I know you have to say, but there's that one
Speaker 2: was real, you know, like you know, we we so
Speaker 2: want there to be and I so do you know,
Speaker 2: like I love going to the Magic Castle and being
Speaker 2: blown away, like.
Speaker 1: Being Oh so you still get out, Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: I mean it's harder to fool you, just like I'm
Speaker 2: sure when you go to see comedy, you know it's you.
Speaker 1: Know, there is no there is not a comedian on
Speaker 1: earth I would pay money to go and see. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: there's not one comedian living or dead that I would
Speaker 1: pay money.
Speaker 2: But if you happen to be in the back of
Speaker 2: the comedy store and someone comes up, you've never heard
Speaker 2: of this pot.
Speaker 1: I've never been in the comedy store in my life,
Speaker 1: I would never go there. No never. I don't know
Speaker 1: what it is. I just I can't even it's that
Speaker 1: gratul Marx thing. It was like, I can't. I would
Speaker 1: never you know, join a club that would have me
Speaker 1: as a member. I can't. I wish I could. Even
Speaker 1: when I was doing Late Night, I remember having a
Speaker 1: conversation with Jimmy Kimmel about this, and he was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, we should all get together and have lunch
Speaker 1: or something, because there's so few of us that do it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't think so, man. And
Speaker 1: then when I left, they did, Yeah, they all did
Speaker 1: a podcast. Yeah, yeah, I did. That's what I was
Speaker 1: talking to her, because I ran into Seth Meyers a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago and he said, yeah, we all
Speaker 1: got together and did this podcast during the writer strike.
Speaker 1: I went out, thanks, But the truth is I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have wanted to do it. Well how come I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like I don't know. Maybe it
Speaker 1: was coming of age during punk rock. Maybe it's maybe
Speaker 1: it's snobbery. I don't think it's snobbery. I think it's
Speaker 1: it's a lack of self worth or something. I don't
Speaker 1: know what it is. It's a strange thing. I can't
Speaker 1: really explain it to myself. I maybe, underneath all of
Speaker 1: this shit, maybe just a little bit shy.
Speaker 2: I get that, Yeah, I get that, because it is
Speaker 2: a I mean that is a maybe one of the
Speaker 2: most exclusive clubs there is of late night talk show hopes.
Speaker 2: Who and only you, you know, the dozen or so
Speaker 2: who were even still living, have experienced what that life
Speaker 2: is like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, like what the thrill, I'm sure it is like.
Speaker 1: But I remember Seth Myers called me when he got
Speaker 1: the job doing the other show and I was still
Speaker 1: doing Late Night, and I said to him, congratulations, you'll
Speaker 1: go fucking crazy. And I saw him a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and he hasn't gone crazy. He's the only
Speaker 1: one I know that hasn't gone crazy. Everyone else is
Speaker 1: going crazy. I don't think Seth is crazy. Well, and
Speaker 1: when do you think? I think? No, I wouldn't go
Speaker 1: that far. I don't know his family, but what he
Speaker 1: has he had something that I was very lucky to
Speaker 1: have as well as he had. He had little kids,
Speaker 1: and I had little kids when I was working, and
Speaker 1: they don't give a fuck, right, Yeah, it's like they don't.
Speaker 1: It's like you know this, you can come off the Wow,
Speaker 1: that's the best show I've ever done. I've made a
Speaker 1: petrillion dollars. You come home because don't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: And that's and eventually your your wife also doesn't give
Speaker 2: oh no, that that happens, you know, as soon as
Speaker 2: it kids right, And sometimes I mean, I I guess
Speaker 2: that's that's that's probably what does keep us from being
Speaker 2: how you need, you.
Speaker 1: Need to have it, you need to have it. It's
Speaker 1: the counterway, you know. I mean, I think that it's
Speaker 1: funny though it's not that they became bad, it's just
Speaker 1: that it's a weird world. I tell you a story
Speaker 1: about a year ago. I was in La and it
Speaker 1: was early in the morning. I was on to do
Speaker 1: some work and and I was in a hotel. I thought, God,
Speaker 1: I need a pair of sneakers. It was ten of us,
Speaker 1: So I'll go with the grove. It's just open. I'll
Speaker 1: go with the grove and I'll get a pair of
Speaker 1: sneakers before anybody's there. So I go to the Nike
Speaker 1: store and I'm looking at this wall of shoes and
Speaker 1: I felt this tap in my shoulder. It's fucking David Letterman.
Speaker 1: And Dave said, how long have you worked here? Fuck you?
Speaker 1: What was he doing that? That's why I said, what
Speaker 1: are you doing here? And he said the weirdest thing
Speaker 1: I was in La. It's still talking. I need a
Speaker 1: pair of sneakers. Wow, and he it was the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. And then Jay Atlanto comes in, and then
Speaker 1: weirdly enough, the ghost of Johnny flowed to the head
Speaker 1: and then everybody bowed down to that, and it was
Speaker 1: and then Chandling does work there it was. It was
Speaker 1: just such a it's a weird, weird world. I'm still
Speaker 1: a little afraid of Dave, even though i haven't worked
Speaker 1: with him for for Them for for over ten years.
Speaker 1: But I'm still I think I was always a little
Speaker 1: afraid of him, and I'm still a little afraid of
Speaker 1: him now, just because he's so impressive.
Speaker 2: So if somebody said, let's say, I say, and I
Speaker 2: am now, it's always felt like the dream job.
Speaker 1: It's the ultimate goal.
Speaker 2: It'll it's it'll bring me the happiness I seek. Yeah,
Speaker 2: would you try to talk me out of her? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I would try to talk to you out of it.
Speaker 1: But actually no, I don't know, because I think you're
Speaker 1: part of the new generation. I think you're like Seth.
Speaker 1: I think you're like I think you're not I think
Speaker 1: I remember talking to Bill Hayder about something like this,
Speaker 1: because I was talking about the the vibe in Saturday
Speaker 1: night Life when you were there, and he said, you know,
Speaker 1: I said, was there a lot of rivalry? Because when
Speaker 1: I came up, performers were very you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of rivalry between performers. And he said, no, it's
Speaker 1: much more collegiate and and he said, I think that
Speaker 1: might be a generational thing. And I think he might
Speaker 1: be right. I think that there is a there is
Speaker 1: a movement, a better movement among younger people really to
Speaker 1: be to be less assholey if possible. To other people,
Speaker 1: it's just this the pressure is like, don't be a dick.
Speaker 1: There's nothing impressive in that, and it's not as aspirational
Speaker 1: to be an unreasonable asshole as it used to be.
Speaker 1: And it could be bad for your career, actually, and
Speaker 1: that's really why people don't do it, I think. But
Speaker 1: I think it is a little less bitter and strange.
Speaker 1: But maybe that's it is because I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: on the other side of that now. So I don't know.
Speaker 2: But is it one of those things that you know,
Speaker 2: I got the job and then it's just a constant
Speaker 2: treading up water to keep.
Speaker 1: The job or to No, it doesn't become that high.
Speaker 1: Here's what's wrong with it. Here's what I found wrong
Speaker 1: with it. You walk into a building. I'm probably repeating myself.
Speaker 1: Don't make people angry. But if you walk into a
Speaker 1: building every day, and those pictures of you everywhere, there's
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty people work in the offices, one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty two hundred people, there's pictures of you everywhere.
Speaker 1: All the stationary has your name on it. Your name
Speaker 1: is written everywhere, and everybody you meet from when you
Speaker 1: get out your car until you get back in your
Speaker 1: car on the way home, has one real goal in mind,
Speaker 1: which is to not piss you off. And that's great
Speaker 1: for about a week, and then it starts to make
Speaker 1: you paranoid, and then it makes you distrust everything. And
Speaker 1: so I think you when the Emperor has no clue, right,
Speaker 1: and I think you clearly are someone who's intelligent and
Speaker 1: not narcissistic, but a performer, so you know you will
Speaker 1: have tendencies, just like I think all performers. You have
Speaker 1: weaknesses like we do. It's part of the fabric of
Speaker 1: being a performer. But those weaknesses can be played on
Speaker 1: by not even unscrupulous individuals, although they're certainly that, but
Speaker 1: more just the situation, and I think you have to
Speaker 1: clever people, and Dave's actually very good at this as well.
Speaker 1: You surround yourself with a kind of wall, and that's
Speaker 1: when you start hearing stories about, oh, you're not allowed
Speaker 1: to look at them directly in the eye. I've heard that.
Speaker 1: I've heard that about Tom Cruise, I heard that about
Speaker 1: David Lehterman. I heard like, if you walk down the
Speaker 1: corridor and they say, don't look them directly in the eye,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the weirdest thing about it. Eventually I
Speaker 1: heard it about myself. Wow.
Speaker 2: And it's probably something that comes from the people around
Speaker 2: your trying attact you right.
Speaker 1: They say, it becomes a thing, you know, but it's
Speaker 1: not true. You can look at me in the air.
Speaker 1: I'm doing right. I know you're doing. It's free out
Speaker 1: because I think they're up to say nobody gave you
Speaker 1: the best. Just this would be such a great time
Speaker 1: to meet you. I I am now your friend. I
Speaker 1: love that I remain your fan and that's great. Thanks
Speaker 1: for coming in and continued roaring success to you. It's
Speaker 1: it's spectacular of what you're doing. Thank you. Great. This
Speaker 1: this brought me joy, great