Speaker 1: Also media, welcome back to it could happen here, a
Speaker 1: podcast about it happening here, it in this case being
Speaker 1: an incredibly political shooting.
Speaker 2: And the thing that's happening. Garrison and I wading through
Speaker 2: a river of disinformation and fever dreams to try and
Speaker 2: pull out some degree of truth and what is a
Speaker 2: very truth light environment right now? Garrison, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Truth fluid? Certainly truth fluid?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a better way to phrase it.
Speaker 4: I have a growing headache that I think grows larger
Speaker 4: by these.
Speaker 3: Second Yeah, just will not will not cease.
Speaker 4: I guess you should first discuss how the shooter has
Speaker 4: been identified and arrested. Yes, we are recording this Friday
Speaker 4: evening for context.
Speaker 2: Yes, early evening. There will be more information on the
Speaker 2: shooter and on the shooting by the time you listen
Speaker 2: to this. We may include an update at the end,
Speaker 2: but we will be talking about stuff that is timeless,
Speaker 2: as in things that we know are false or true
Speaker 2: at the moment, and just generally our ethics on when
Speaker 2: do we feel confident saying a shooting or other kind
Speaker 2: of attack was left wing or right wing or something else, like,
Speaker 2: when do we feel confident in making those judgments and why,
Speaker 2: because those are really relevant topics and a lot of
Speaker 2: people just kind of go with what seems right based
Speaker 2: on the flow of info their hearing, which is how
Speaker 2: disinformation spreads. So the last time we would have talked
Speaker 2: about this would be the ed episode that came out.
Speaker 2: What was that Friday Garrison.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Thursday night, Friday morning, and basically right after we
Speaker 5: covered that, early in the morning on Friday, President Trump
Speaker 5: was doing a media appearance on Fox News and he
Speaker 5: was the person who announced that they had a suspect
Speaker 5: in custody.
Speaker 2: They were pretty sure was it. Obviously, since the FBI
Speaker 2: had given the wrong accuse the wrong person at least
Speaker 2: twice of doing this, people weren't sure if that meant anything.
Speaker 2: But it did come out very soon after that that
Speaker 2: a young man had essentially confessed to his father, who
Speaker 2: negotiated him turning himself into the authorities. This young man
Speaker 2: is Tyler Robinson. He was born and raised in Utah.
Speaker 2: I think, as far as we know, I woke up
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night right as his name
Speaker 2: came out. I don't know why. It was weird, and
Speaker 2: so I just immediately started looking at the social media
Speaker 2: for his family, because I was able to find his
Speaker 2: mom and his dad's Facebook.
Speaker 3: The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Speaker 2: So I can tell you, and this is something you'll
Speaker 2: find in the reporting. He came from a pretty normal
Speaker 2: Utah family, politically conservative. That's based on articles I've seen,
Speaker 2: we interviewing people who know the family, and just based
Speaker 2: on publicly available information.
Speaker 3: Grunt style T shirt wearing father right.
Speaker 2: He dressed as Donald Trump. It's seemingly in a positive
Speaker 2: fashion for Halloween one year. His family were pretty a
Speaker 2: very normal Utah family. I found posts where they took
Speaker 2: pictures in camping with their RVs, going out hunting. He
Speaker 2: was hunting from a young age, access to firearms from
Speaker 2: a young age, including like assault style weapons from a
Speaker 2: young age, again very common for Utah. And yeah, his
Speaker 2: family hunted and fished, and he seems to have been
Speaker 2: a very normal kid in that regard. Kind of the
Speaker 2: thing that I found when I was doing my first
Speaker 2: dive into this that I thought was worthwhile, and the
Speaker 2: one thing that I really pulled out of that to
Speaker 2: share with people was in twenty eighteen, he dressed as
Speaker 2: a meme for Halloween and the specific meme was this
Speaker 2: meme that is not inherently political, but is one that
Speaker 2: this group of far right people who follow a guy
Speaker 2: named Nick Fuint has called the gropers like, which doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that he was signaling to that, because again, like
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, it's not just the gropers who
Speaker 2: like this squatting slav guy meme. That's what he dressed as.
Speaker 2: If you've seen this meme of like the squatting Slavic
Speaker 2: guy in a tracksuit with a cigarette and a beer,
Speaker 2: he dressed like that for Halloween. There's a groper version
Speaker 2: of that squatting slav guy.
Speaker 3: Well, no, there's a Pepe version.
Speaker 2: You're right, you're right, I need to be precise. There's
Speaker 2: a Pepe version and it is a meme that you
Speaker 2: can find shared in groper spaces, which again does not
Speaker 2: mean it's a groper meme. And I've seen that mistakenly
Speaker 2: and really tried to push back on this does not
Speaker 2: mean he definitely was, but it doesn't mean that he
Speaker 2: was a very online kid and he traveled in spaces
Speaker 2: where he would have had access and would have been
Speaker 2: aware of grouper's and that would have been one chunk
Speaker 2: of the online fever. Swamps that he would have been
Speaker 2: connected to and he would have had access to. We
Speaker 2: don't yet know at the time we're recording this what
Speaker 2: he believed or what his motivation was. The rething I
Speaker 2: thought was relevant to publish of this is that, like, okay,
Speaker 2: we are dealing with an extremely online weirdo, right. And
Speaker 2: immediately after that it came out exactly what was carved
Speaker 2: onto the bullets that he had shot. And this was
Speaker 2: relevant in part because yesterday, the first day of news
Speaker 2: that we had about the bullets, the immediate claim that
Speaker 2: was leaked to Stephen Crowder through a source of his
Speaker 2: in the ATF, was that trans symbols had been carved
Speaker 2: onto the bullets. That was not accurate. If you want
Speaker 2: some levity from this whole scene, listening to the sheriff,
Speaker 2: oh God, giving the press conference, read the things he
Speaker 2: carved onto these bullets.
Speaker 3: We should just include some of those clips here.
Speaker 2: We'll put it in here.
Speaker 6: Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices, bulge's capital, wo,
Speaker 6: what's this question mark? Inscriptions on the three unfired casings
Speaker 6: read hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch, exclamation point, up arrow symbol,
Speaker 6: right arrow and symbol, and three down arrow symbols. A
Speaker 6: second unfired casing read oh bellichow bellachow, bellachow chow chow,
Speaker 6: and a third unfired casing.
Speaker 2: Read if you read this, you are gay. LMAO. Just
Speaker 2: absolutely outstanding stuff. I mean, hearing a law enforcement officer
Speaker 2: say that is beautiful. It reminds me of having to
Speaker 2: explain bitcoin to all of the elderly detectives in West
Speaker 2: LA when I got a death threat against me. But
Speaker 2: this is like extremely online gamer nonsense.
Speaker 4: Okay, right, yeah, average white male over the online gamer
Speaker 4: at this point, that's what it looks like. It could
Speaker 4: have developed in a far right direction, could be developed
Speaker 4: in a far left direction, could be an ironic centrist,
Speaker 4: it could be any number of things. There's no single
Speaker 4: clear indication.
Speaker 2: It could be someone who doesn't map easily onto any
Speaker 2: of these traditional political compasses, Like we don't know at
Speaker 2: this point. And what's kind of important that and the
Speaker 2: reason what I thought was really important to get out
Speaker 2: to people is that there will always be terrorist attacks
Speaker 2: from It's never even if you want it to just
Speaker 2: be right wingers, It's never just right wingers hy do
Speaker 2: domestic terrorism. That's never been the case, and it never
Speaker 2: will be the case. And one of the things that
Speaker 2: we're seeing and we will increasingly see, is that even
Speaker 2: while there will be varying political motivations behind different attacks,
Speaker 2: the language that people who are carrying out attacks like
Speaker 2: this use is all kind of coming to a point together. Right.
Speaker 2: They all have more in common with the way they mesasage.
Speaker 2: The christ Church shooter and this kid both found the
Speaker 2: need to put memes onto the weapons they were using.
Speaker 4: Inscribe the Internet exactly onto tools of killing, mechanisms of death, right,
Speaker 4: literally inscribing the Internet onto tools of death. That is
Speaker 4: a thing both of them did. Yeah, maybe for wildly
Speaker 4: different reasons. Maybe this guy was coming from a left
Speaker 4: wing perspective, right, We just don't know.
Speaker 3: But this is where it's all coalescing around, and.
Speaker 2: I think that is really important to note, right, the
Speaker 2: way that that happens. Now, again, we wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about the thing that we can definitely say is disinformation.
Speaker 2: And one of the first counters to the whole transgender
Speaker 2: symbols carved onto bullets that came out was people putting
Speaker 2: up pictures of there's a Turkish manufacturer called Tehran and
Speaker 2: they make bullets and their logo on the back of
Speaker 2: a bullet. If you're not a gun person, every bullet
Speaker 2: has the logo of the manufacturer, name of the caliber
Speaker 2: stamped onto the back, right, I mean, just for basic
Speaker 2: safety reasons, right or nearly every bullet twenty two is
Speaker 2: a little too small. But like if you've got like
Speaker 2: a round a nine millimeter or around a five to
Speaker 2: five to six or around a thirty at six, which
Speaker 2: was the caliber he used, apparently on the back of
Speaker 2: it you'll see the name of the manufacturer and then
Speaker 2: the caliber stamped in there, right, and so on the
Speaker 2: back of Turan bullets is stamped tr in And so
Speaker 2: people started posting online this must be why they thought
Speaker 2: what they thought was transgender. That like, they saw a
Speaker 2: Turan bullet and assumed it was trans And we know
Speaker 2: that wasn't the case because this was a thirty at
Speaker 2: six and Taran does not make thirty out six ammunition.
Speaker 2: We also know this was the case because they have
Speaker 2: now come out and said what was written on the
Speaker 2: bullets and what was mistaken for transgender air roads and
Speaker 2: the thing that was mistaken for transgender arrows was a
Speaker 2: reference to the video game Hell Divers.
Speaker 3: A fucking hell Divers mean.
Speaker 2: Yes again very gamer online kid.
Speaker 4: Side note, it's not completely clear which bullet casing was
Speaker 4: attributed to transgender ideology. It could be an interpretation of
Speaker 4: the arrows, or it could be the notices bulge oh
Speaker 4: woe casing and on that note, notices bulge oh Woe
Speaker 4: is not a groper meme. It's a meme making fun
Speaker 4: of furry sex role playing, which pre dates the existence
Speaker 4: of gropers by years, and as a meme has since
Speaker 4: been reclaimed by furries and trans shit posters online or
Speaker 4: trans only fans creators, or just trans people in general
Speaker 4: on the Internet, many of which are also furries. But
Speaker 4: now we have various types of opposing or overlapping groups
Speaker 4: of people who use this meme online. It's not a
Speaker 4: right wing meme just making fun of furries. It is
Speaker 4: also a meme used by people on the left and
Speaker 4: furries on the left, and probably furries on the right
Speaker 4: to and non furries. It's just a general Internet meme.
Speaker 4: It's a Reddit tear joke. Now. I will say the
Speaker 4: Helldiver's meme also gives us kind of are not a
Speaker 4: clear look, but a look at a possible political motivation.
Speaker 4: Now it could be ironic in use, It could be
Speaker 4: just referential in use, but the full hell Diver's referenced
Speaker 4: bullet reads hey fascist catch, followed by the hell Diver's
Speaker 4: dpad input for the five hundred kilogram bomb, which is
Speaker 4: the arrows.
Speaker 2: That's the down arrows.
Speaker 4: I think up arrow side arrow down down down arrow,
Speaker 4: which some ATS agent or someone initially thought could have
Speaker 4: been a reference to the transgender symbol or the three
Speaker 4: arrows symbol, coupled with the hey fascist section of that reference.
Speaker 4: The hell Diver's video game does used fascist as a term,
Speaker 4: but this also could be a more general political reference,
Speaker 4: either ironic or sincere. By referring to Charlie Kirk as
Speaker 4: a fascist, we do not know the actual intentionality behind
Speaker 4: the reference yet. One thing that's possibly tied to twenty
Speaker 4: fascism is that another bullet reads bella Chow, bella chow
Speaker 4: chow chow, misspelling bella chow, which is a popular anti
Speaker 4: fascist anthem, though the song has more recently also been
Speaker 4: used by Grouper's and fans of Hearts of Iron four.
Speaker 4: A diverse political budge, one could say, we have talked
Speaker 4: about bella Chow on the show before. In fact, we've
Speaker 4: used bella Chow on multiple Cool Zone media shows. It
Speaker 4: was originally an Italian anti fascist song that has since
Speaker 4: been adopted by anarchists and anti fascists all around the globe.
Speaker 4: I've heard Bellachow get played on loudspeakers countless times at
Speaker 4: anti fascist events on the West Coast as well as
Speaker 4: anarchist events on the East Coast. Though the song has
Speaker 4: since gained a whole other life through pop culture popularization,
Speaker 4: with EDM and like dubstep style remixes going viral. Most
Speaker 4: normies probably first heard it on the Netflix show Money
Speaker 4: Heist and has been adopted into gamer culture via its
Speaker 4: use in Far Cry six and Hearts of Iron four.
Speaker 2: Again, could be an anti fascist reference, could be video
Speaker 2: game shit, could be graper shit. There's just not enough
Speaker 2: to say at this point.
Speaker 7: Or it could be a centrist, a political hodgepodge of
Speaker 7: that has resulted in this nihilistic outburst of violence similar
Speaker 7: to some of these like TCC school shootings. Yeah, we
Speaker 7: don't know, but there's currently a lot of people on
Speaker 7: the right who thinks it's an antifa super soldier leftist,
Speaker 7: a lot of people on the left who think this
Speaker 7: is a nick Fuentes piled groper, and either of those
Speaker 7: could be true, but neither could be true.
Speaker 4: It could be a much weirder third option. We don't
Speaker 4: have direct evidence to support a full reading of either
Speaker 4: of those things yet.
Speaker 2: And this is when I have seen people get kind
Speaker 2: of heated about being corrected on, particularly the bullet thing.
Speaker 2: And I think the reason why is that it seems
Speaker 2: it seems like such a smoking gotcha. Of course they'd
Speaker 2: be this stupid you really want it to be true.
Speaker 2: And it's when you feel like that about a case
Speaker 2: like this, about an attack like this, that like, oh,
Speaker 2: I really want this to be true. It would be
Speaker 2: really satisfying if this was the thing that had happened,
Speaker 2: that you need to be most hesitant to embrace that, right.
Speaker 2: I think that's that's what I'd say.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, if it's too good to be true or it
Speaker 4: feels too convenient, you should introspect greatly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Robert and Garrison will be right back, but first,
Speaker 2: here's some ads and we're back.
Speaker 4: There's been other things that is kind of influencing this
Speaker 4: political uncertainty. A reporter for the Young Turks only the
Speaker 4: most reparatable news outlet has claimed on Twitter on Friday afternoon.
Speaker 3: Quote.
Speaker 4: According to Utah officials and police interviews with his family,
Speaker 4: Tyler robbinsid hey Charlie Kirk because Kirk wasn't conservative enough.
Speaker 4: Robinson reportedly admired Nick Fuentes g O piers are now
Speaker 4: scrubbing ex posts about Dems faster than doj Orasi's Trump's
Speaker 4: name from in Epstein files unquote. Yeah, this claim from
Speaker 4: David Schuster the report of the Young Turks unsubstantiated. Yes,
Speaker 4: but it's being spread as as exact fact, and it
Speaker 4: seems like this claim is most likely misquoting and editorializing
Speaker 4: from a statement a family member gave to police, which
Speaker 4: has been described by the governor as a family member
Speaker 4: and the shooter discussing Charlie Kirk's upcoming visit to UVU campus.
Speaker 4: They talked about why they didn't like him and viewpoints
Speaker 4: he held. The family member also stated Kirk was full
Speaker 4: of hate and spreading hate unquote.
Speaker 3: So that has been.
Speaker 4: Altered and shifted and interpreted in a lot of different
Speaker 4: ways to say that the shooter stated Kirk was full
Speaker 4: of hate in spreading hate, even though that's not what
Speaker 4: this interview segment necessarily means. Just that quote unquote, they
Speaker 4: meaning the family member and the shooter didn't like Kirk.
Speaker 4: And that's really all you can extrapolate from that piece
Speaker 4: of this police statement. But it's been spreading, editorialized to
Speaker 4: me in a wild collection of different things, Yeah, including
Speaker 4: by people on the right who are interpreting this statement
Speaker 4: as evidence that the shooter has said that Kirk was
Speaker 4: spreading hate, even though that's not actually clear from this
Speaker 4: interview either. No, it says that the family member stated
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate, not
Speaker 4: the shooter.
Speaker 2: And likewise, one of the things I'm seeing spread a
Speaker 2: lot is a claimed voter registration for Robinson.
Speaker 3: A Tyler Robinson in Utah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, there's a lot of them.
Speaker 3: A lot of Tyler Robinsons in Utah.
Speaker 2: The one that is spreading the most has a voter
Speaker 2: registration date of one to one two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: which he just simply couldn't have. Now that said, people
Speaker 2: pointed out that Utah's voter registration is bad, and this
Speaker 2: does seem like a placeholder that someone put in. But
Speaker 2: also the county's not right because he didn't live in Lehigh,
Speaker 2: Utah and that's where this is listed for. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying this guy definitely wasn't. He may have been a
Speaker 2: registered Republican, but it looks like we don't have the
Speaker 2: information to say that yet. Likewise, there's an article that
Speaker 2: was published recently in The Guardian where they talked to
Speaker 2: someone who was a friend of his in high school
Speaker 2: who said that he was like the only leftist in
Speaker 2: a family of Republicans and was angry about it.
Speaker 4: The exact quote was that Robinson was quote pretty left
Speaker 4: on everything, the only member of his family that was
Speaker 4: really leftist ye. The rest of his family was very
Speaker 4: hard Republican yep. And that Robinson would quote always just
Speaker 4: be renting and arguing about them.
Speaker 2: And it does look CNN is saying that they have
Speaker 2: found Tyler Robinson's actual voter registration data, and CNN says
Speaker 2: he's registered as unaffiliated with a political party and is
Speaker 2: listed as an active, which means he has not voted
Speaker 2: in either of the two last general elections. So again,
Speaker 2: there's just nothing, nothing clear we.
Speaker 4: Can say, right, Yeah, it's hard to take both this
Speaker 4: young Turks reporter and a high school friend from four
Speaker 4: years ago not great sources for someone's current.
Speaker 2: Political outlook absolutely not.
Speaker 4: And contradictory, so it's really really unclear. Also, this is
Speaker 4: just one friend. You would want more than one source
Speaker 4: to substantiate this claim, and perhaps by Sunday night, when
Speaker 4: this airs, there will will be more information. Quick update
Speaker 4: on this. Literally minutes after Robert and I recorded, the
Speaker 4: Guardian retracted those quotes from the shooter's alleged high school classmate,
Speaker 4: which described the shooter as a leftist. The source contacted
Speaker 4: the Guardian again and said that they could not accurately
Speaker 4: remember the details of their relationship in high school, So
Speaker 4: the Guardian has pulled those quotes. But certainly right now,
Speaker 4: the way people have latched on two narratives to satisfy
Speaker 4: the current emotion little turmoil that people are in because
Speaker 4: of the hyper reality around this shooting and the possible
Speaker 4: consequences it could mean for the fate of this whole country.
Speaker 4: I understand why people are quick to really hook their
Speaker 4: version of reality onto these claims. Yes, but currently there
Speaker 4: is no clear version of reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just want to caution people if you
Speaker 2: care about knowing reality yourself, And there's two different questions here, right,
Speaker 2: what is useful, what is valuable? What like protects people
Speaker 2: and then what gets us closer to the truth. Right.
Speaker 2: Part of why as soon as I found that photo
Speaker 2: of him dressed as a meme for Halloween and recognize
Speaker 2: the implications of it, I put it up there is
Speaker 2: because I thought it was relevant that it said something
Speaker 2: about his background, but also it got discussion, and just
Speaker 2: people bringing up how complicated this guy's background is did
Speaker 2: a positive thing, which is a got discussion away from
Speaker 2: absolutely baseless allegations that this was a transgender terrorist attack.
Speaker 2: And also its all the kind of shit that had
Speaker 2: been spreading on the right right, and that was valuable. However,
Speaker 2: I've been really careful about not saying this guy is
Speaker 2: a groyper, even though that sure would be convenient, because again,
Speaker 2: at the time we're recording this, there's just not that evidence.
Speaker 2: Every new fact that comes out about this guy right
Speaker 2: now is wavering in this gray area where, you know,
Speaker 2: like I one of the other things, when I posted
Speaker 2: correcting the voter registration card, somebody posted like, okay, but
Speaker 2: he donated a Trump's campaign No, he did not. A
Speaker 2: different guy with his name donated to Donald Trump, the
Speaker 2: Tyler Robinson, who is currently in custody for shooting. Charlie
Speaker 2: Kirk has no record of federal election donations, per CNN. Right,
Speaker 2: these are very convincing when you see them just sort
Speaker 2: of sliding across your news feed, and if you're not
Speaker 2: checking up on every new thing you see, it feels like, obviously,
Speaker 2: this guy's a right winger. Obviously he's a groper. I've
Speaker 2: seen so many pieces of evidence when you actually haven't
Speaker 2: seen any evidence at all, and.
Speaker 4: Even those two things can get completed. Right, Saying he's
Speaker 4: a groper is different than saying he do a right winger.
Speaker 4: Right Like a groper is a very specific branch alt
Speaker 4: right slash far right community slash ideology revolving around the
Speaker 4: America First streamer Nick Fuentes and a collection of memes
Speaker 4: associated with this movement, which have historically beef with Charlie
Speaker 4: Kirk for not being sufficiently to the right as some
Speaker 4: more openly white premacist neo Nazis have been. This beef
Speaker 4: between Fuentes and Kirk was largely dissolved after Kirk started
Speaker 4: adopting more and more far right believes and adopted the
Speaker 4: Great Replacement theory, which settled down the quote unquote groper
Speaker 4: war which many people are assuming that this shooting is
Speaker 4: a part of with some groper Nick Fuentez fan killing
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk, possibly as a legitimate part of the quote
Speaker 4: unquote groper war, but also maybe just as like an
Speaker 4: ironic mimetic act. So when you say groper, that should
Speaker 4: refer to a very specific thing, not necessarily just this
Speaker 4: guy used right wing memes or these memes aren't even
Speaker 4: right wing, but like.
Speaker 2: No, it could be, but they're not inherently.
Speaker 4: This man could be, but they're not inherently nor are
Speaker 4: they really the main use of this saying Haha, if
Speaker 4: you read this, you are gay, right, could just be
Speaker 4: an average overly online male right or on the internet.
Speaker 4: A lot of people talk like that. A lot of
Speaker 4: gay people talk like that. A lot of fascists people
Speaker 4: talk about that.
Speaker 2: Is this homophobia or a twenty year old right It.
Speaker 4: Could be either or Yeah, and we don't need to
Speaker 4: just jump to one specific thing to build a singular
Speaker 4: narrative when a fluid situation is still rapidly unfolding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not if again, you want to feel like and
Speaker 2: you want to really be better than the other side,
Speaker 2: who don't give a shit about the truth, who just
Speaker 2: care about what's convenient and how many people they can
Speaker 2: get to believe a convenient fact. Right, If you don't
Speaker 2: want to be that kind of person, if you think
Speaker 2: that's bad, and I do, and you do, and we
Speaker 2: all do here at cool Zone, then you do kind
Speaker 2: of it to yourself to care about stuff like this,
Speaker 2: even if it's less convenient. By the way, if you're
Speaker 2: not an investigator, you don't have to be delving into
Speaker 2: all this. It's enough to just know the fact that
Speaker 2: I saw something that looked like evidence this guy donated
Speaker 2: to a campaign. Do I know that that's him? Do
Speaker 2: I absolutely know that's him? Because it's possible multiple people
Speaker 2: have the same name and some of them may have
Speaker 2: made a donation or not. Right, don't just pass your
Speaker 2: eyes over stuff like this and be like, all right,
Speaker 2: I've done all I need to do, but do purchase
Speaker 2: from these advertisers and we're back.
Speaker 4: One other aspect that people's reaction to the shooting is demonstrating,
Speaker 4: and we've seen this with other major events, major political events,
Speaker 4: violent political events the past few years, is how this
Speaker 4: shows a new fracturing of reality. Because what eventually gets
Speaker 4: proven about the shooter will probably be insignificant to the
Speaker 4: narratives that people have already latched onto and have baked
Speaker 4: into reality so far. And this conceptual splitting of reality
Speaker 4: is going to fall squarely along some partisan in political lines.
Speaker 4: Right conservatives will have a conception of the shooting which
Speaker 4: differs heavily from the conception of the shooting held by
Speaker 4: people on the left. Many people on the left are
Speaker 4: going to believe that this shooter was a groper forever,
Speaker 4: no matter what comes out in the next few weeks
Speaker 4: to months, they will have in their version of reality
Speaker 4: the idea that this guy was a groper. Similarly, people
Speaker 4: on the right are going to believe, to the fullest
Speaker 4: and truest except of their hearts, that this guy was Antifa.
Speaker 4: The actual reality is going to matter very little compared
Speaker 4: to these two beliefs. And the killing of Charlie Kirk
Speaker 4: has mimetic potential for several large, discrete and overlapping online groups.
Speaker 4: Many different online communities or groups could have encouraged or
Speaker 4: influenced this killing. Anti fascists certainly could have Leftists, the
Speaker 4: groper right could have the four Chan right could have
Speaker 4: terror Graham could have all different and possible overlapping communities
Speaker 4: in cell culture. Yeah, irony, poisoned centrists, j RAG nihilists, accelerationists.
Speaker 2: A normal garden variety Trumpist Republican who got angry over
Speaker 2: Epstein stuff could have done this. There's no evidence of that,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying, but I'm just saying, like there we
Speaker 2: literally like it could be so many things at this.
Speaker 4: Point, and as satisfying as it is to just collapse
Speaker 4: this guy down to Antifa or Graper.
Speaker 3: It's very likely it could just be a third.
Speaker 4: Weirder option, be the weirder option, right, especially if you
Speaker 4: look at the nihilist trend of violence that we've covered
Speaker 4: on this show, from TCC with ties to other extremist groups,
Speaker 4: the multiple school shootings that have used nostalgia and online
Speaker 4: references and references to previous shootings. This could also line
Speaker 4: up with that framework. As Robert said, the inscription of
Speaker 4: memes onto tools of death is a commonality across many
Speaker 4: of these gruesome acts of violence, from christ Church to
Speaker 4: the Minneapolis school shooting just a month ago to this
Speaker 4: assassination in September.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, I think it is worth talking about how Gropers
Speaker 2: and how Nick Fuintes himself has responded to this because
Speaker 2: that is telling right totally, whether or not this guy
Speaker 2: is a growper. A lot of gropers have publicly speculated
Speaker 2: that he is their.
Speaker 4: Guy, or people on four Chan have speculated that he
Speaker 4: is a graper, not your average four Chan user necessarily
Speaker 4: he's a groper. I think this distinction is also important.
Speaker 4: That is valid, yes, but yeah, you have seen a
Speaker 4: lot of people on the right suspected this guy could
Speaker 4: be a groper. Certainly, some gropers have themselves as well
Speaker 4: as four Chan users. And Nick Fuentes does seem a
Speaker 4: little bit nervous, but he could be nervous for a
Speaker 4: lot of reasons.
Speaker 2: But he put out a video.
Speaker 3: I watched the entire Nick Fuentes stream last night.
Speaker 2: Oh good, thank god.
Speaker 4: He was acting a little bizarre, talking very philosophical, almost
Speaker 4: as if he was like doing ketamine beforehand.
Speaker 3: Like he was talking.
Speaker 4: About how the structure of society and like a spiritual
Speaker 4: structure as well, will influence society to cause events to
Speaker 4: happen which kind of stress test and demonstrate the direction
Speaker 4: of society going. And he basically talked about the assassination
Speaker 4: as one of these events of society unfolding itself to
Speaker 4: determine what path is going to get taken. Our thing
Speaker 4: is going to get more violent and more divisive, or
Speaker 4: will this event alter reality's course in a more positive direction.
Speaker 4: It was very interesting. He was talking about how he
Speaker 4: feels some responsibility for the arc that this country has
Speaker 4: gone on, how he's made a lot of mistakes when
Speaker 4: he's younger. You could interpret this as trying to pick
Speaker 4: up new supporters and try to fill in the Charlie
Speaker 4: Kirk sized hole in the American right, but it's unclear.
Speaker 4: He was talking quite emotionally about what the past few
Speaker 4: years of his life have been and.
Speaker 2: Again making that comment that I want all of my
Speaker 2: fans to stand down, etc. It's noteworthy of where Fwind
Speaker 2: has his head is right, Yeah, and of the media
Speaker 2: environment he must exist in terms of, like personally what
Speaker 2: comes to him. And I'm very curious if I could,
Speaker 2: if I could somehow know everything Nick Fuintes has been
Speaker 2: texted and been texting over the last seventy two hours. God,
Speaker 2: that would be fascinating.
Speaker 3: He said.
Speaker 4: The people on the left were telling him it's his
Speaker 4: responsibility to try to turn things down, and he was
Speaker 4: kind of upset about that. Yeah, and during the stream,
Speaker 4: Fuentes was not discussing the shooter as if the shooter
Speaker 4: was a groper, or even suspecting the shooter was a groper.
Speaker 4: Nick telling his audience or whoever listening, to put down
Speaker 4: your arms and not jump to quick emotional violence was
Speaker 4: in reference to retaliatory violence against the Left for their
Speaker 4: killing of Charlie Kirk. That was the way Twentes was
Speaker 4: talking about the shooting through the course of this hour
Speaker 4: long stream. It did not seem to me that he
Speaker 4: was trying to cover his bases in case the shooter
Speaker 4: was a groper. That wasn't how he was discussing. He
Speaker 4: certainly laid a lot of blame on the Left, and
Speaker 4: he seemed very scared about the direction of the country.
Speaker 4: Someone showed up with a weapon to his house less
Speaker 4: than a year ago, and I think some of his
Speaker 4: fear is absolutely genuine. It's not just trying to cover
Speaker 4: his ass in case this guy turns out to be
Speaker 4: a groper.
Speaker 2: No, he's in danger because of the things he did.
Speaker 2: He invited the danger into his life by being Nick
Speaker 2: quint As. But he is in danger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, No. It was a very odd stream.
Speaker 4: I tuned into nickquint As every once in a while
Speaker 4: just to keep track of what he was doing, like
Speaker 4: a healthy person.
Speaker 3: It's my job.
Speaker 2: I know, I woke up at four am to stock
Speaker 2: a murderer's family on Facebook. Garrison.
Speaker 4: So it was in the first fifteen minutes of the
Speaker 4: stream where Nick discussed these more theoretical elements, how spiritual
Speaker 4: or societal forces kind of use people as puppets, not
Speaker 4: in a like fully end he see way, but as
Speaker 4: an evolutionary method of charting the path of society. Nick
Speaker 4: then wents to go on to discuss Charlie Kirk, how
Speaker 4: he's beefed with Charlie in the past, how they've disagreed
Speaker 4: on nearly everything, but goes on to say some nice
Speaker 4: things about Charlie for the first time, and then calls
Speaker 4: for everyone to lay down their arms. Now is not
Speaker 4: the time to jump to quick action. We should reflect,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. But in those first fifteen minutes
Speaker 4: he talks about like what this shooting means for American culture.
Speaker 4: And I've been watching some of his other recent streams
Speaker 4: where he's kind of been going after some of his
Speaker 4: fans for just being completely like brain dead, just repeating
Speaker 4: racist tropes with no real thought, just talking about Hitler
Speaker 4: in this memified way, and it feels like he's sort
Speaker 4: of reflecting on both what he's done with his life
Speaker 4: ever since he's been a teenager and the world that
Speaker 4: he has helped bring into being. He talks about never
Speaker 4: having much of an actual sincere or participation in polic
Speaker 4: how it's always been so bombastic and mimetic, and it
Speaker 4: appears as if he's kind of stuck doing this bit forever,
Speaker 4: like he decided that this is what his life was
Speaker 4: going to be as a teenager, and now he's in
Speaker 4: his mid twenties, and from these other recent streams, it
Speaker 4: feels like he's kind of fed up with how his
Speaker 4: audience is just appearing completely mindless, very Larpee, endlessly repeating
Speaker 4: Hitler references, reflection racism, and how he's trapped himself in
Speaker 4: this political game. And a quote he said is that
Speaker 4: this is not a game. This is life and death.
Speaker 4: And as we've just seen, like this is literally life
Speaker 4: and death. This is not just online memes anymore. We
Speaker 4: can't treat politics as an online meme game anymore, because
Speaker 4: these real life characters are getting killed, they framed a
Speaker 4: lot of this in very spiritual warfare language, like they
Speaker 4: killed Charlie for being Christian, or talking about Jesus though
Speaker 4: stressing to his listeners like Jesus not actually pick up
Speaker 4: arms and fight. Yeah, and people should calm down and
Speaker 4: reflect because how the country handles this event will be
Speaker 4: heavily deterministic. Yes, in what the country looks like going forward.
Speaker 4: That's and that's what he was expressing.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And I think that that's that's a really
Speaker 2: important point for people to get across that, like there's
Speaker 2: there's the immediate battle in front of us, right, which
Speaker 2: is why it's so tempting sometimes to take the easy Oh,
Speaker 2: that's this guy was one of theirs. That that means
Speaker 2: we don't have to keep thinking about it, or it
Speaker 2: means that we can kind of just like move forward
Speaker 2: with this as another right wing attack. And there's a
Speaker 2: degree to which, you know, it's good just for the
Speaker 2: rights narrative machine to get upset by the fact that
Speaker 2: even if it turns out this guy at a left
Speaker 2: wing motivation, he's weirder and more confusing than they want
Speaker 2: him to be. And he's not you know, the transgender
Speaker 2: terrorists they were hoping he.
Speaker 3: Would be certainly not trans right to give.
Speaker 2: Them permission to do all the fucked up shit they
Speaker 2: wanted to do. You know, if they need permission, I mean,
Speaker 2: they seem to feel like they need an excuse.
Speaker 4: He Trump creates permission, some of his followers might appreciate permissions.
Speaker 2: I guess yeah. One thing that is undeniable is there
Speaker 2: was an extreme desire from a lot of these guys
Speaker 2: for this to be tied in with their ongoing attacks
Speaker 2: on trans people in the left. Totally right, And so
Speaker 2: I understand even the argument that, like anything that disrupts
Speaker 2: their narrative train there, even if it winds up not
Speaker 2: being accurate, there's a value in it. I do understand
Speaker 2: that argument. But on a larger thing, if we just
Speaker 2: care about terrorism and like why people get radicalized to
Speaker 2: do things and how and understanding these phenomenons.
Speaker 4: Like actually understanding how our country is unfolding.
Speaker 2: Right, that influence all of our lives, right, And usually
Speaker 2: usually what happens is not a single guy getting shot
Speaker 2: for a specific reason, usually a bunch of people who
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the grievances expressed getting shot. Right.
Speaker 2: That's usually when somebody decides to pick up a gun
Speaker 2: and go into public because the inner they they got radicalized,
Speaker 2: usually a bunch of randomness and people die, which is
Speaker 2: again why it's just really important to try to understand
Speaker 2: the underlying dynamics, even in a specific case like this,
Speaker 2: and why I actually do care about the truth here,
Speaker 2: even though that that's not as convenient maybe as we'd
Speaker 2: like it to be. I don't know what else, What
Speaker 2: else do we want to talk about here?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 4: I mean, like, I think this event will be extremely important, yeh.
Speaker 4: Something that Fuen has talked about is how even if
Speaker 4: you've never met Kirk, whether you hate Kirk or whether
Speaker 4: you love Kirk, Kirk has been a parasocial force in
Speaker 4: probably everyone who's listening to this their lives for years,
Speaker 4: and watching him bleed out gruesomely is massively effective. I
Speaker 4: think the reason why people are reacting to this so
Speaker 4: much more strongly than the murder of a state senator
Speaker 4: and her husband is that we did not have a
Speaker 4: personal relationship with that state senator, nor was there a
Speaker 4: video of them gruesomely bleeding out. And people's emotions affect
Speaker 4: how they understand reality, and the Charlie Kirk murder has
Speaker 4: been emotionally affecting for a lot of people, both positively
Speaker 4: and negatively, and it was very graphic, and it's spread
Speaker 4: around Like watching someone who you know, whether personally or
Speaker 4: parasocially die on video through the medium in which they
Speaker 4: gained their fame, is going to be a very large,
Speaker 4: to use a really bad pun turning point for the USA.
Speaker 4: And I think that's part of why everyone's so volatile
Speaker 4: around this issue, because I think everyone realizes how important
Speaker 4: this moment will be. Despite the deaths of Palestinian children vastly,
Speaker 4: vastly outnumber the deaths of one conservative commentator.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like logically we could all say
Speaker 2: that that's wrong and fucked up, but like you just
Speaker 2: you know, that's how people work, right, how people work.
Speaker 2: We all know that's how people work. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: that's okay, I just you know.
Speaker 3: No, but it's it's it's it's the way, it's the
Speaker 3: way things work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know, like because again we again
Speaker 2: still cannot say at this point that there was just
Speaker 2: a kanity Fair article came out that's kind of repeating
Speaker 2: some of the Groper stuff. But I looked in my post,
Speaker 2: is their source on that, So they don't have anything
Speaker 2: new on the Groper front.
Speaker 4: So no, they're just thinking that the squatting Slavs meme
Speaker 4: is evidence, yeah, tied to the Pepe version of the meme,
Speaker 4: which is then linked to Groyper, which is a specific
Speaker 4: type of Pepe, not the skinny Pepe. H.
Speaker 3: I'm so tired, Roberts.
Speaker 2: I'm really tired. I don't know if this guy liked
Speaker 2: Nick Flintes. I will say he probably had an opinion
Speaker 2: about Nick Flintes. He was aware of them. The dude right,
Speaker 2: like he was that level of online for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, which twenty two year old gamer mail doesn't.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, right exactly.
Speaker 2: Again, It's like I was talking about when before we
Speaker 2: knew who it was, when we just had the video,
Speaker 2: because I did accurately anticipate that it was someone who
Speaker 2: learned how to shoot through hunting with a bolt action rifle.
Speaker 2: That's just what the shot looked like to me when
Speaker 2: I saw it, Yeah, which wound up being accurate. And
Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who were like questioning
Speaker 2: that on the grounds of like, well, though this had
Speaker 2: to be like a train sniper or something like that,
Speaker 2: and it's like.
Speaker 4: This looks like a professional hit to me, Robert, or no,
Speaker 4: a MASAD agent either.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, like no, literally, all we knew is that
Speaker 2: it was somebody who was able to like competent with
Speaker 2: a firearm.
Speaker 3: That's all you could say.
Speaker 2: And probably it was not a semi automatic because people
Speaker 2: in stressful situations, if they can usually keep shooting, right.
Speaker 3: They would have hired more than one shot.
Speaker 2: And was like, yeah, yeah, that's all. That's all we
Speaker 2: could say, which narrowed it down to everyone in Utah.
Speaker 2: Like like that's when I try to emphasize this, that
Speaker 2: like what I can say from this is that anyone
Speaker 2: in Utah could have shot Charlie Kirk at that point,
Speaker 2: and sure enough it turned out being almost.
Speaker 3: Like average twenty two year old Utonian. Yeah, you've.
Speaker 2: Positive normal Utah kid, that's what this guy looks like
Speaker 2: so far.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, there's a lot of like semi racist
Speaker 4: or semi misogynist gamers out there. They're not necessarily grapers, right,
Speaker 4: And we don't even know how racist this guy was.
Speaker 4: There's no indication one way or another. He certainly had
Speaker 4: an awareness of online culture, but everyone who makes a
Speaker 4: hell divers two reference is going to have a pretty
Speaker 4: large awareness of online culture, and that does not indicate
Speaker 4: what his quote unquote beliefs are, just an awareness and
Speaker 4: an existence within that culture.
Speaker 2: Yep. Well, I can't think of anything else to say
Speaker 2: at the moment about this. It's unclear to me the
Speaker 2: degree to which this has shifted the national discourse on it.
Speaker 2: I have seen it looks like the way in which
Speaker 2: the conservatives are talking about this guy in the shooting,
Speaker 2: it looks like they have changed, at least some of them,
Speaker 2: because it's less clear at least the number of people
Speaker 2: right we're seeing.
Speaker 4: The Groper counter narrative has introduced doubt, which will influence
Speaker 4: some conservatives understanding of the shooting. Others will keep hitting
Speaker 4: and that leftist antifa line. I have seen certain people
Speaker 4: claim that the Groper narrative is even changing the way
Speaker 4: Trump talks about the shooting because Trump is not referencing
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk as much or is avoiding questions about how
Speaker 4: he feeling in regards to Kirk's death. Yeah, Trump has
Speaker 4: never cared about Charlie Kirk. Okay Vance certainly has. He's
Speaker 4: like closer to like Dvance's orbit. But Donald Trump doesn't
Speaker 4: give a single fuck about Charlie Kirk. Absolutely not this little,
Speaker 4: this little puny man, Like, no, Trump does not care.
Speaker 4: It makes sense that one asked how Trump feels about
Speaker 4: about Charlie Kirk's as and and and if he's feeling okay,
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, I feel fine. What I'm really excited
Speaker 4: about is that we're constructing the new White House ball Rose. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Like that's not indication that Trump's been told that this
Speaker 4: guy's actually a rightist and now has to not talk
Speaker 4: about how the left is ruining the country. Now, it's
Speaker 4: that Trump does not care about Arliekark that much. And
Speaker 4: it's been a few days, so yeah, he's gonna move on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's you know, if you're wanting to game
Speaker 2: theory this out of the ethics of just muddying the
Speaker 2: waters to disrupt their momentum, well there's an argument to
Speaker 2: be made there.
Speaker 3: I can see that. I can see the utility in that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: My utility is, I would say, at the very least
Speaker 4: equal to that.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: That's having an accurate understanding.
Speaker 2: I want to know what happened to the world to.
Speaker 4: Predict future trends and like understand the trajectory of political
Speaker 4: violence in the United States. Yeah, and that's what my
Speaker 4: interest in stressing evidentiary standards for understanding the motivations behind
Speaker 4: this attack and the online communities and cultures that this
Speaker 4: attack has emerged from.
Speaker 2: Right. And I would say, if you're looking in your
Speaker 2: own life, how can I tell which side of things
Speaker 2: I'm on? Just imagine everything was reversed in the case where,
Speaker 2: like you think, this is really clear evidence that this
Speaker 2: person was motivated by whoever you hate the most, and
Speaker 2: that whatever ideology you hate is why they did it.
Speaker 2: If it were the opposite and the same level of
Speaker 2: evidence was being used to accuse someone who was on
Speaker 2: your side of things, would you consider the evidence presented enough? Right?
Speaker 2: And That's where what I'm looking at is, I have
Speaker 2: not seen enough evidence to buy into either side fully.
Speaker 2: Yet I can make a case in my head that
Speaker 2: he's a groper, and there's some pieces of evidence that
Speaker 2: fit with that. And I can make a case in
Speaker 2: my head that he's a guy who hates Charlie Kirk,
Speaker 2: and there's quotes from some interviews that would back that up,
Speaker 2: but neither of them is a solid At the moment
Speaker 2: that we're recording. This is a solid hypothesis to me
Speaker 2: or just.
Speaker 3: A vaguely right wing board gamer right or just a
Speaker 3: right wing board.
Speaker 4: Who has zoomer angst, and it manifested this way, as
Speaker 4: many other people have manifested their zoomer anks through an
Speaker 4: act of political violence. Yeah, like groper, a very specific
Speaker 4: term means a specific thing. It doesn't just mean a
Speaker 4: gen z conservative.
Speaker 2: Yep, No, it does not. And I think that's where
Speaker 2: we're going to have to leave you for the day.
Speaker 2: We may have appenned an update to this, depending on
Speaker 2: what else is out. I do think that most of
Speaker 2: what we're talking about is pretty even though there will
Speaker 2: be more information at the time you listen to it,
Speaker 2: pretty timeless in terms of how you should think about
Speaker 2: shit like this.
Speaker 4: How you react to whatever the next assassination is going
Speaker 4: to be, because this is an increasing trend in American politics.
Speaker 2: Look, if you care and if you stance, if your
Speaker 2: principled stance with all the evidence is I don't care.
Speaker 2: All that matters is defeating the right. So all I
Speaker 2: care about is what's convenient in terms of disrupting their narratives.
Speaker 2: Then go on and live your life. But that's not
Speaker 2: the way. We we're gonna do things here. When we
Speaker 2: look at these tacks, we are going to try to
Speaker 2: figure out what happened, even if it's inconvenient, and it
Speaker 2: may be, you know, we don't know what this guy yet.
Speaker 4: Touch some fucking grass before you touch grass. I'm recording
Speaker 4: one more update Sunday morning. Yesterday, right wing outlets and
Speaker 4: then axios and now even more mainstream outlet's started reporting
Speaker 4: that the shooter, Tyler Robinson, had a transgender roommate and
Speaker 4: that investigators believe the two had some sort of romantic relationship.
Speaker 4: Some information from law enforcement officials about this investigation has
Speaker 4: been shown to be dubious at best, but it is
Speaker 4: true that the shooter had a roommate who does appear
Speaker 4: to be transgender. The roommate's TikTok can be traced to
Speaker 4: a Reddit account where they post about being trans and
Speaker 4: post on r slash trans r slash trans diy as
Speaker 4: well as r slash four tran, and also posts on
Speaker 4: r slash green Text and r slash four Chan. Also
Speaker 4: active in a variety of video games subreddits, Magic the
Speaker 4: Gathering Memes subreddits, r slash Distressing Memes, r slash Reddit
Speaker 4: moment r slash Unpopular Opinion r slash Lord of the
Speaker 4: Rings Memes, r slash prehistoric Memes, r slash dank meme,
Speaker 4: r slash nothing Ever Happens. Also post on r slash BYRL,
Speaker 4: r slash Anarcho Capitalism r slash Jordan Peterson, as well
Speaker 4: as the four Chan themed subreddits. I should also note
Speaker 4: that scrolling these subreddits is not necessarily indicative of someone's
Speaker 4: political orientation. I myself scroll many of these subreddits, as
Speaker 4: do actually a political friends of mine who check out
Speaker 4: these subreddits regularly just for shits and giggles. This is
Speaker 4: politics as meme subredits like Political Compass and TPUSA are
Speaker 4: popular political subreddits with explicitly comedic purpose, including making fun
Speaker 4: of Charlie Kirk in a memified fashion. And I don't
Speaker 4: know if the roommate visited those two specific subredits, but
Speaker 4: I'm just using them as an example. Utah Governor Spencer
Speaker 4: Cox says that the roommate did not have any knowledge
Speaker 4: of Tyler Robinson's planned attack and has been incredibly cooperative
Speaker 4: throughout the course of the investigation. Sources have told Axios
Speaker 4: that investigators initially wanted information about the roommates' gender identity
Speaker 4: to not be publicly reported. The right is certainly eager
Speaker 4: to make any sort of transgender connection to this shooting.
Speaker 4: The New York Post has referred to this shooting as
Speaker 4: another shooting by trans people and their advocates. The actual
Speaker 4: motivation of the shooter is still currently unknown. Governor Cox
Speaker 4: has described his ideology as leftist, while also noting quote,
Speaker 4: there was a lot of gaming going on. Friends have
Speaker 4: confirmed that there was that deep dark internet Reddit culture
Speaker 4: and other dark places of the Internet where this person
Speaker 4: was going deep. You saw that on the casings. I
Speaker 4: didn't have any idea what those inscriptions meant, but they
Speaker 4: are certainly the memification that is happening in our society today.
Speaker 3: Unquote. That's pretty much all we know so far. Now
Speaker 3: go touch some grass.
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