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Speaker 1: Also media, welcome back to it could happen here, a

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Speaker 1: podcast about it happening here, it in this case being

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Speaker 1: an incredibly political shooting.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that's happening. Garrison and I wading through

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Speaker 2: a river of disinformation and fever dreams to try and

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Speaker 2: pull out some degree of truth and what is a

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Speaker 2: very truth light environment right now? Garrison, how are you doing?

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Speaker 3: Truth fluid? Certainly truth fluid?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a better way to phrase it.

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Speaker 4: I have a growing headache that I think grows larger

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Speaker 4: by these.

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Speaker 3: Second Yeah, just will not will not cease.

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Speaker 4: I guess you should first discuss how the shooter has

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Speaker 4: been identified and arrested. Yes, we are recording this Friday

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Speaker 4: evening for context.

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Speaker 2: Yes, early evening. There will be more information on the

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Speaker 2: shooter and on the shooting by the time you listen

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Speaker 2: to this. We may include an update at the end,

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Speaker 2: but we will be talking about stuff that is timeless,

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Speaker 2: as in things that we know are false or true

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Speaker 2: at the moment, and just generally our ethics on when

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Speaker 2: do we feel confident saying a shooting or other kind

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Speaker 2: of attack was left wing or right wing or something else, like,

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Speaker 2: when do we feel confident in making those judgments and why,

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Speaker 2: because those are really relevant topics and a lot of

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Speaker 2: people just kind of go with what seems right based

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Speaker 2: on the flow of info their hearing, which is how

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Speaker 2: disinformation spreads. So the last time we would have talked

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Speaker 2: about this would be the ed episode that came out.

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Speaker 2: What was that Friday Garrison.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Thursday night, Friday morning, and basically right after we

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Speaker 5: covered that, early in the morning on Friday, President Trump

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Speaker 5: was doing a media appearance on Fox News and he

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Speaker 5: was the person who announced that they had a suspect

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Speaker 5: in custody.

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Speaker 2: They were pretty sure was it. Obviously, since the FBI

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Speaker 2: had given the wrong accuse the wrong person at least

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Speaker 2: twice of doing this, people weren't sure if that meant anything.

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Speaker 2: But it did come out very soon after that that

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Speaker 2: a young man had essentially confessed to his father, who

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Speaker 2: negotiated him turning himself into the authorities. This young man

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Speaker 2: is Tyler Robinson. He was born and raised in Utah.

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Speaker 2: I think, as far as we know, I woke up

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the night right as his name

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Speaker 2: came out. I don't know why. It was weird, and

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Speaker 2: so I just immediately started looking at the social media

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Speaker 2: for his family, because I was able to find his

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Speaker 2: mom and his dad's Facebook.

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Speaker 3: The Lord works in mysterious ways.

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Speaker 2: So I can tell you, and this is something you'll

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Speaker 2: find in the reporting. He came from a pretty normal

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Speaker 2: Utah family, politically conservative. That's based on articles I've seen,

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Speaker 2: we interviewing people who know the family, and just based

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Speaker 2: on publicly available information.

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Speaker 3: Grunt style T shirt wearing father right.

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Speaker 2: He dressed as Donald Trump. It's seemingly in a positive

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Speaker 2: fashion for Halloween one year. His family were pretty a

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Speaker 2: very normal Utah family. I found posts where they took

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Speaker 2: pictures in camping with their RVs, going out hunting. He

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Speaker 2: was hunting from a young age, access to firearms from

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Speaker 2: a young age, including like assault style weapons from a

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Speaker 2: young age, again very common for Utah. And yeah, his

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Speaker 2: family hunted and fished, and he seems to have been

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Speaker 2: a very normal kid in that regard. Kind of the

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Speaker 2: thing that I found when I was doing my first

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Speaker 2: dive into this that I thought was worthwhile, and the

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Speaker 2: one thing that I really pulled out of that to

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Speaker 2: share with people was in twenty eighteen, he dressed as

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Speaker 2: a meme for Halloween and the specific meme was this

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Speaker 2: meme that is not inherently political, but is one that

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Speaker 2: this group of far right people who follow a guy

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Speaker 2: named Nick Fuint has called the gropers like, which doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that he was signaling to that, because again, like

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Speaker 2: all of this stuff, it's not just the gropers who

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Speaker 2: like this squatting slav guy meme. That's what he dressed as.

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Speaker 2: If you've seen this meme of like the squatting Slavic

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Speaker 2: guy in a tracksuit with a cigarette and a beer,

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Speaker 2: he dressed like that for Halloween. There's a groper version

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Speaker 2: of that squatting slav guy.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, there's a Pepe version.

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Speaker 2: You're right, you're right, I need to be precise. There's

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Speaker 2: a Pepe version and it is a meme that you

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Speaker 2: can find shared in groper spaces, which again does not

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Speaker 2: mean it's a groper meme. And I've seen that mistakenly

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Speaker 2: and really tried to push back on this does not

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Speaker 2: mean he definitely was, but it doesn't mean that he

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Speaker 2: was a very online kid and he traveled in spaces

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Speaker 2: where he would have had access and would have been

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Speaker 2: aware of grouper's and that would have been one chunk

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Speaker 2: of the online fever. Swamps that he would have been

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Speaker 2: connected to and he would have had access to. We

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Speaker 2: don't yet know at the time we're recording this what

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Speaker 2: he believed or what his motivation was. The rething I

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Speaker 2: thought was relevant to publish of this is that, like, okay,

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Speaker 2: we are dealing with an extremely online weirdo, right. And

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Speaker 2: immediately after that it came out exactly what was carved

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Speaker 2: onto the bullets that he had shot. And this was

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Speaker 2: relevant in part because yesterday, the first day of news

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Speaker 2: that we had about the bullets, the immediate claim that

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Speaker 2: was leaked to Stephen Crowder through a source of his

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Speaker 2: in the ATF, was that trans symbols had been carved

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Speaker 2: onto the bullets. That was not accurate. If you want

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Speaker 2: some levity from this whole scene, listening to the sheriff,

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Speaker 2: oh God, giving the press conference, read the things he

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Speaker 2: carved onto these bullets.

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Speaker 3: We should just include some of those clips here.

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Speaker 2: We'll put it in here.

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Speaker 6: Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices, bulge's capital, wo,

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Speaker 6: what's this question mark? Inscriptions on the three unfired casings

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Speaker 6: read hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch, exclamation point, up arrow symbol,

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Speaker 6: right arrow and symbol, and three down arrow symbols. A

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Speaker 6: second unfired casing read oh bellichow bellachow, bellachow chow chow,

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Speaker 6: and a third unfired casing.

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Speaker 2: Read if you read this, you are gay. LMAO. Just

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Speaker 2: absolutely outstanding stuff. I mean, hearing a law enforcement officer

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Speaker 2: say that is beautiful. It reminds me of having to

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Speaker 2: explain bitcoin to all of the elderly detectives in West

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Speaker 2: LA when I got a death threat against me. But

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Speaker 2: this is like extremely online gamer nonsense.

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Speaker 4: Okay, right, yeah, average white male over the online gamer

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Speaker 4: at this point, that's what it looks like. It could

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Speaker 4: have developed in a far right direction, could be developed

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Speaker 4: in a far left direction, could be an ironic centrist,

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Speaker 4: it could be any number of things. There's no single

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Speaker 4: clear indication.

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Speaker 2: It could be someone who doesn't map easily onto any

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Speaker 2: of these traditional political compasses, Like we don't know at

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Speaker 2: this point. And what's kind of important that and the

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Speaker 2: reason what I thought was really important to get out

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Speaker 2: to people is that there will always be terrorist attacks

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Speaker 2: from It's never even if you want it to just

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Speaker 2: be right wingers, It's never just right wingers hy do

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Speaker 2: domestic terrorism. That's never been the case, and it never

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Speaker 2: will be the case. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: we're seeing and we will increasingly see, is that even

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Speaker 2: while there will be varying political motivations behind different attacks,

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Speaker 2: the language that people who are carrying out attacks like

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Speaker 2: this use is all kind of coming to a point together. Right.

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Speaker 2: They all have more in common with the way they mesasage.

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Speaker 2: The christ Church shooter and this kid both found the

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Speaker 2: need to put memes onto the weapons they were using.

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Speaker 4: Inscribe the Internet exactly onto tools of killing, mechanisms of death, right,

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Speaker 4: literally inscribing the Internet onto tools of death. That is

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Speaker 4: a thing both of them did. Yeah, maybe for wildly

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Speaker 4: different reasons. Maybe this guy was coming from a left

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Speaker 4: wing perspective, right, We just don't know.

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Speaker 3: But this is where it's all coalescing around, and.

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Speaker 2: I think that is really important to note, right, the

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Speaker 2: way that that happens. Now, again, we wanted to talk

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Speaker 2: about the thing that we can definitely say is disinformation.

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Speaker 2: And one of the first counters to the whole transgender

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Speaker 2: symbols carved onto bullets that came out was people putting

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Speaker 2: up pictures of there's a Turkish manufacturer called Tehran and

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Speaker 2: they make bullets and their logo on the back of

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Speaker 2: a bullet. If you're not a gun person, every bullet

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Speaker 2: has the logo of the manufacturer, name of the caliber

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Speaker 2: stamped onto the back, right, I mean, just for basic

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Speaker 2: safety reasons, right or nearly every bullet twenty two is

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Speaker 2: a little too small. But like if you've got like

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Speaker 2: a round a nine millimeter or around a five to

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Speaker 2: five to six or around a thirty at six, which

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Speaker 2: was the caliber he used, apparently on the back of

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Speaker 2: it you'll see the name of the manufacturer and then

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Speaker 2: the caliber stamped in there, right, and so on the

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Speaker 2: back of Turan bullets is stamped tr in And so

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Speaker 2: people started posting online this must be why they thought

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Speaker 2: what they thought was transgender. That like, they saw a

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Speaker 2: Turan bullet and assumed it was trans And we know

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Speaker 2: that wasn't the case because this was a thirty at

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Speaker 2: six and Taran does not make thirty out six ammunition.

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Speaker 2: We also know this was the case because they have

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Speaker 2: now come out and said what was written on the

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Speaker 2: bullets and what was mistaken for transgender air roads and

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Speaker 2: the thing that was mistaken for transgender arrows was a

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Speaker 2: reference to the video game Hell Divers.

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Speaker 3: A fucking hell Divers mean.

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Speaker 2: Yes again very gamer online kid.

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Speaker 4: Side note, it's not completely clear which bullet casing was

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Speaker 4: attributed to transgender ideology. It could be an interpretation of

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Speaker 4: the arrows, or it could be the notices bulge oh

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Speaker 4: woe casing and on that note, notices bulge oh Woe

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Speaker 4: is not a groper meme. It's a meme making fun

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Speaker 4: of furry sex role playing, which pre dates the existence

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Speaker 4: of gropers by years, and as a meme has since

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Speaker 4: been reclaimed by furries and trans shit posters online or

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Speaker 4: trans only fans creators, or just trans people in general

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Speaker 4: on the Internet, many of which are also furries. But

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Speaker 4: now we have various types of opposing or overlapping groups

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Speaker 4: of people who use this meme online. It's not a

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Speaker 4: right wing meme just making fun of furries. It is

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Speaker 4: also a meme used by people on the left and

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Speaker 4: furries on the left, and probably furries on the right

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Speaker 4: to and non furries. It's just a general Internet meme.

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Speaker 4: It's a Reddit tear joke. Now. I will say the

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Speaker 4: Helldiver's meme also gives us kind of are not a

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Speaker 4: clear look, but a look at a possible political motivation.

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Speaker 4: Now it could be ironic in use, It could be

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Speaker 4: just referential in use, but the full hell Diver's referenced

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Speaker 4: bullet reads hey fascist catch, followed by the hell Diver's

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Speaker 4: dpad input for the five hundred kilogram bomb, which is

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Speaker 4: the arrows.

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Speaker 2: That's the down arrows.

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Speaker 4: I think up arrow side arrow down down down arrow,

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Speaker 4: which some ATS agent or someone initially thought could have

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Speaker 4: been a reference to the transgender symbol or the three

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Speaker 4: arrows symbol, coupled with the hey fascist section of that reference.

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Speaker 4: The hell Diver's video game does used fascist as a term,

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Speaker 4: but this also could be a more general political reference,

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Speaker 4: either ironic or sincere. By referring to Charlie Kirk as

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Speaker 4: a fascist, we do not know the actual intentionality behind

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Speaker 4: the reference yet. One thing that's possibly tied to twenty

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Speaker 4: fascism is that another bullet reads bella Chow, bella chow

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Speaker 4: chow chow, misspelling bella chow, which is a popular anti

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Speaker 4: fascist anthem, though the song has more recently also been

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Speaker 4: used by Grouper's and fans of Hearts of Iron four.

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Speaker 4: A diverse political budge, one could say, we have talked

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Speaker 4: about bella Chow on the show before. In fact, we've

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Speaker 4: used bella Chow on multiple Cool Zone media shows. It

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Speaker 4: was originally an Italian anti fascist song that has since

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Speaker 4: been adopted by anarchists and anti fascists all around the globe.

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Speaker 4: I've heard Bellachow get played on loudspeakers countless times at

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Speaker 4: anti fascist events on the West Coast as well as

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Speaker 4: anarchist events on the East Coast. Though the song has

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Speaker 4: since gained a whole other life through pop culture popularization,

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Speaker 4: with EDM and like dubstep style remixes going viral. Most

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Speaker 4: normies probably first heard it on the Netflix show Money

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Speaker 4: Heist and has been adopted into gamer culture via its

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Speaker 4: use in Far Cry six and Hearts of Iron four.

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Speaker 2: Again, could be an anti fascist reference, could be video

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Speaker 2: game shit, could be graper shit. There's just not enough

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Speaker 2: to say at this point.

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Speaker 7: Or it could be a centrist, a political hodgepodge of

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Speaker 7: that has resulted in this nihilistic outburst of violence similar

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Speaker 7: to some of these like TCC school shootings. Yeah, we

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Speaker 7: don't know, but there's currently a lot of people on

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Speaker 7: the right who thinks it's an antifa super soldier leftist,

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Speaker 7: a lot of people on the left who think this

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Speaker 7: is a nick Fuentes piled groper, and either of those

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Speaker 7: could be true, but neither could be true.

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Speaker 4: It could be a much weirder third option. We don't

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Speaker 4: have direct evidence to support a full reading of either

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Speaker 4: of those things yet.

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Speaker 2: And this is when I have seen people get kind

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Speaker 2: of heated about being corrected on, particularly the bullet thing.

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Speaker 2: And I think the reason why is that it seems

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Speaker 2: it seems like such a smoking gotcha. Of course they'd

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Speaker 2: be this stupid you really want it to be true.

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Speaker 2: And it's when you feel like that about a case

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Speaker 2: like this, about an attack like this, that like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I really want this to be true. It would be

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Speaker 2: really satisfying if this was the thing that had happened,

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Speaker 2: that you need to be most hesitant to embrace that, right.

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Speaker 2: I think that's that's what I'd say.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, if it's too good to be true or it

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Speaker 4: feels too convenient, you should introspect greatly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Robert and Garrison will be right back, but first,

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Speaker 2: here's some ads and we're back.

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Speaker 4: There's been other things that is kind of influencing this

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Speaker 4: political uncertainty. A reporter for the Young Turks only the

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Speaker 4: most reparatable news outlet has claimed on Twitter on Friday afternoon.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 4: According to Utah officials and police interviews with his family,

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Speaker 4: Tyler robbinsid hey Charlie Kirk because Kirk wasn't conservative enough.

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Speaker 4: Robinson reportedly admired Nick Fuentes g O piers are now

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Speaker 4: scrubbing ex posts about Dems faster than doj Orasi's Trump's

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Speaker 4: name from in Epstein files unquote. Yeah, this claim from

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Speaker 4: David Schuster the report of the Young Turks unsubstantiated. Yes,

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Speaker 4: but it's being spread as as exact fact, and it

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Speaker 4: seems like this claim is most likely misquoting and editorializing

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Speaker 4: from a statement a family member gave to police, which

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Speaker 4: has been described by the governor as a family member

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Speaker 4: and the shooter discussing Charlie Kirk's upcoming visit to UVU campus.

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Speaker 4: They talked about why they didn't like him and viewpoints

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Speaker 4: he held. The family member also stated Kirk was full

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Speaker 4: of hate and spreading hate unquote.

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Speaker 3: So that has been.

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Speaker 4: Altered and shifted and interpreted in a lot of different

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Speaker 4: ways to say that the shooter stated Kirk was full

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Speaker 4: of hate in spreading hate, even though that's not what

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Speaker 4: this interview segment necessarily means. Just that quote unquote, they

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Speaker 4: meaning the family member and the shooter didn't like Kirk.

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Speaker 4: And that's really all you can extrapolate from that piece

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Speaker 4: of this police statement. But it's been spreading, editorialized to

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Speaker 4: me in a wild collection of different things, Yeah, including

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Speaker 4: by people on the right who are interpreting this statement

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Speaker 4: as evidence that the shooter has said that Kirk was

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Speaker 4: spreading hate, even though that's not actually clear from this

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Speaker 4: interview either. No, it says that the family member stated

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Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate, not

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Speaker 4: the shooter.

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Speaker 2: And likewise, one of the things I'm seeing spread a

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Speaker 2: lot is a claimed voter registration for Robinson.

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Speaker 3: A Tyler Robinson in Utah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, there's a lot of them.

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Speaker 3: A lot of Tyler Robinsons in Utah.

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Speaker 2: The one that is spreading the most has a voter

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Speaker 2: registration date of one to one two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: which he just simply couldn't have. Now that said, people

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Speaker 2: pointed out that Utah's voter registration is bad, and this

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Speaker 2: does seem like a placeholder that someone put in. But

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Speaker 2: also the county's not right because he didn't live in Lehigh,

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Speaker 2: Utah and that's where this is listed for. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying this guy definitely wasn't. He may have been a

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Speaker 2: registered Republican, but it looks like we don't have the

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Speaker 2: information to say that yet. Likewise, there's an article that

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Speaker 2: was published recently in The Guardian where they talked to

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Speaker 2: someone who was a friend of his in high school

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Speaker 2: who said that he was like the only leftist in

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Speaker 2: a family of Republicans and was angry about it.

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Speaker 4: The exact quote was that Robinson was quote pretty left

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Speaker 4: on everything, the only member of his family that was

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Speaker 4: really leftist ye. The rest of his family was very

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Speaker 4: hard Republican yep. And that Robinson would quote always just

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Speaker 4: be renting and arguing about them.

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Speaker 2: And it does look CNN is saying that they have

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Speaker 2: found Tyler Robinson's actual voter registration data, and CNN says

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Speaker 2: he's registered as unaffiliated with a political party and is

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Speaker 2: listed as an active, which means he has not voted

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Speaker 2: in either of the two last general elections. So again,

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Speaker 2: there's just nothing, nothing clear we.

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Speaker 4: Can say, right, Yeah, it's hard to take both this

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Speaker 4: young Turks reporter and a high school friend from four

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Speaker 4: years ago not great sources for someone's current.

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Speaker 2: Political outlook absolutely not.

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Speaker 4: And contradictory, so it's really really unclear. Also, this is

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Speaker 4: just one friend. You would want more than one source

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Speaker 4: to substantiate this claim, and perhaps by Sunday night, when

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Speaker 4: this airs, there will will be more information. Quick update

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Speaker 4: on this. Literally minutes after Robert and I recorded, the

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Speaker 4: Guardian retracted those quotes from the shooter's alleged high school classmate,

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Speaker 4: which described the shooter as a leftist. The source contacted

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Speaker 4: the Guardian again and said that they could not accurately

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Speaker 4: remember the details of their relationship in high school, So

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Speaker 4: the Guardian has pulled those quotes. But certainly right now,

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Speaker 4: the way people have latched on two narratives to satisfy

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Speaker 4: the current emotion little turmoil that people are in because

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Speaker 4: of the hyper reality around this shooting and the possible

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Speaker 4: consequences it could mean for the fate of this whole country.

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Speaker 4: I understand why people are quick to really hook their

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Speaker 4: version of reality onto these claims. Yes, but currently there

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Speaker 4: is no clear version of reality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just want to caution people if you

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Speaker 2: care about knowing reality yourself, And there's two different questions here, right,

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Speaker 2: what is useful, what is valuable? What like protects people

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Speaker 2: and then what gets us closer to the truth. Right.

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Speaker 2: Part of why as soon as I found that photo

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Speaker 2: of him dressed as a meme for Halloween and recognize

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Speaker 2: the implications of it, I put it up there is

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Speaker 2: because I thought it was relevant that it said something

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Speaker 2: about his background, but also it got discussion, and just

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Speaker 2: people bringing up how complicated this guy's background is did

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Speaker 2: a positive thing, which is a got discussion away from

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Speaker 2: absolutely baseless allegations that this was a transgender terrorist attack.

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Speaker 2: And also its all the kind of shit that had

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Speaker 2: been spreading on the right right, and that was valuable. However,

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Speaker 2: I've been really careful about not saying this guy is

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Speaker 2: a groyper, even though that sure would be convenient, because again,

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Speaker 2: at the time we're recording this, there's just not that evidence.

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Speaker 2: Every new fact that comes out about this guy right

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Speaker 2: now is wavering in this gray area where, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I one of the other things, when I posted

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Speaker 2: correcting the voter registration card, somebody posted like, okay, but

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Speaker 2: he donated a Trump's campaign No, he did not. A

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Speaker 2: different guy with his name donated to Donald Trump, the

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Speaker 2: Tyler Robinson, who is currently in custody for shooting. Charlie

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Speaker 2: Kirk has no record of federal election donations, per CNN. Right,

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Speaker 2: these are very convincing when you see them just sort

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Speaker 2: of sliding across your news feed, and if you're not

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Speaker 2: checking up on every new thing you see, it feels like, obviously,

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Speaker 2: this guy's a right winger. Obviously he's a groper. I've

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Speaker 2: seen so many pieces of evidence when you actually haven't

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Speaker 2: seen any evidence at all, and.

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Speaker 4: Even those two things can get completed. Right, Saying he's

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Speaker 4: a groper is different than saying he do a right winger.

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Speaker 4: Right Like a groper is a very specific branch alt

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Speaker 4: right slash far right community slash ideology revolving around the

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Speaker 4: America First streamer Nick Fuentes and a collection of memes

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Speaker 4: associated with this movement, which have historically beef with Charlie

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Speaker 4: Kirk for not being sufficiently to the right as some

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Speaker 4: more openly white premacist neo Nazis have been. This beef

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Speaker 4: between Fuentes and Kirk was largely dissolved after Kirk started

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Speaker 4: adopting more and more far right believes and adopted the

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Speaker 4: Great Replacement theory, which settled down the quote unquote groper

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Speaker 4: war which many people are assuming that this shooting is

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Speaker 4: a part of with some groper Nick Fuentez fan killing

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Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk, possibly as a legitimate part of the quote

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Speaker 4: unquote groper war, but also maybe just as like an

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Speaker 4: ironic mimetic act. So when you say groper, that should

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Speaker 4: refer to a very specific thing, not necessarily just this

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Speaker 4: guy used right wing memes or these memes aren't even

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Speaker 4: right wing, but like.

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Speaker 2: No, it could be, but they're not inherently.

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Speaker 4: This man could be, but they're not inherently nor are

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Speaker 4: they really the main use of this saying Haha, if

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Speaker 4: you read this, you are gay, right, could just be

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Speaker 4: an average overly online male right or on the internet.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people talk like that. A lot of

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Speaker 4: gay people talk like that. A lot of fascists people

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Speaker 4: talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Is this homophobia or a twenty year old right It.

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Speaker 4: Could be either or Yeah, and we don't need to

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Speaker 4: just jump to one specific thing to build a singular

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Speaker 4: narrative when a fluid situation is still rapidly unfolding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not if again, you want to feel like and

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Speaker 2: you want to really be better than the other side,

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Speaker 2: who don't give a shit about the truth, who just

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Speaker 2: care about what's convenient and how many people they can

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Speaker 2: get to believe a convenient fact. Right, If you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be that kind of person, if you think

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Speaker 2: that's bad, and I do, and you do, and we

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Speaker 2: all do here at cool Zone, then you do kind

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Speaker 2: of it to yourself to care about stuff like this,

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Speaker 2: even if it's less convenient. By the way, if you're

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Speaker 2: not an investigator, you don't have to be delving into

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Speaker 2: all this. It's enough to just know the fact that

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Speaker 2: I saw something that looked like evidence this guy donated

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Speaker 2: to a campaign. Do I know that that's him? Do

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Speaker 2: I absolutely know that's him? Because it's possible multiple people

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Speaker 2: have the same name and some of them may have

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Speaker 2: made a donation or not. Right, don't just pass your

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Speaker 2: eyes over stuff like this and be like, all right,

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Speaker 2: I've done all I need to do, but do purchase

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Speaker 2: from these advertisers and we're back.

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Speaker 4: One other aspect that people's reaction to the shooting is demonstrating,

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Speaker 4: and we've seen this with other major events, major political events,

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Speaker 4: violent political events the past few years, is how this

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Speaker 4: shows a new fracturing of reality. Because what eventually gets

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Speaker 4: proven about the shooter will probably be insignificant to the

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Speaker 4: narratives that people have already latched onto and have baked

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Speaker 4: into reality so far. And this conceptual splitting of reality

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Speaker 4: is going to fall squarely along some partisan in political lines.

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Speaker 4: Right conservatives will have a conception of the shooting which

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Speaker 4: differs heavily from the conception of the shooting held by

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Speaker 4: people on the left. Many people on the left are

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Speaker 4: going to believe that this shooter was a groper forever,

436
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 4: no matter what comes out in the next few weeks

437
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 4: to months, they will have in their version of reality

438
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 4: the idea that this guy was a groper. Similarly, people

439
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 4: on the right are going to believe, to the fullest

440
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 4: and truest except of their hearts, that this guy was Antifa.

441
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 4: The actual reality is going to matter very little compared

442
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 4: to these two beliefs. And the killing of Charlie Kirk

443
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 4: has mimetic potential for several large, discrete and overlapping online groups.

444
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 4: Many different online communities or groups could have encouraged or

445
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 4: influenced this killing. Anti fascists certainly could have Leftists, the

446
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 4: groper right could have the four Chan right could have

447
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 4: terror Graham could have all different and possible overlapping communities

448
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 4: in cell culture. Yeah, irony, poisoned centrists, j RAG nihilists, accelerationists.

449
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: A normal garden variety Trumpist Republican who got angry over

450
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: Epstein stuff could have done this. There's no evidence of that,

451
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 2: I'm not saying, but I'm just saying, like there we

452
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: literally like it could be so many things at this.

453
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 4: Point, and as satisfying as it is to just collapse

454
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 4: this guy down to Antifa or Graper.

455
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 3: It's very likely it could just be a third.

456
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 4: Weirder option, be the weirder option, right, especially if you

457
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 4: look at the nihilist trend of violence that we've covered

458
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 4: on this show, from TCC with ties to other extremist groups,

459
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 4: the multiple school shootings that have used nostalgia and online

460
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 4: references and references to previous shootings. This could also line

461
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 4: up with that framework. As Robert said, the inscription of

462
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 4: memes onto tools of death is a commonality across many

463
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 4: of these gruesome acts of violence, from christ Church to

464
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 4: the Minneapolis school shooting just a month ago to this

465
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: assassination in September.

466
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 8: Yeah.

467
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: Now, I think it is worth talking about how Gropers

468
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: and how Nick Fuintes himself has responded to this because

469
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: that is telling right totally, whether or not this guy

470
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: is a growper. A lot of gropers have publicly speculated

471
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: that he is their.

472
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 4: Guy, or people on four Chan have speculated that he

473
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 4: is a graper, not your average four Chan user necessarily

474
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 4: he's a groper. I think this distinction is also important.

475
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 4: That is valid, yes, but yeah, you have seen a

476
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 4: lot of people on the right suspected this guy could

477
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 4: be a groper. Certainly, some gropers have themselves as well

478
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 4: as four Chan users. And Nick Fuentes does seem a

479
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: little bit nervous, but he could be nervous for a

480
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 4: lot of reasons.

481
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: But he put out a video.

482
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: I watched the entire Nick Fuentes stream last night.

483
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: Oh good, thank god.

484
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 4: He was acting a little bizarre, talking very philosophical, almost

485
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 4: as if he was like doing ketamine beforehand.

486
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 3: Like he was talking.

487
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 4: About how the structure of society and like a spiritual

488
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: structure as well, will influence society to cause events to

489
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 4: happen which kind of stress test and demonstrate the direction

490
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 4: of society going. And he basically talked about the assassination

491
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 4: as one of these events of society unfolding itself to

492
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 4: determine what path is going to get taken. Our thing

493
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 4: is going to get more violent and more divisive, or

494
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: will this event alter reality's course in a more positive direction.

495
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 4: It was very interesting. He was talking about how he

496
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 4: feels some responsibility for the arc that this country has

497
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 4: gone on, how he's made a lot of mistakes when

498
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 4: he's younger. You could interpret this as trying to pick

499
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 4: up new supporters and try to fill in the Charlie

500
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 4: Kirk sized hole in the American right, but it's unclear.

501
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 4: He was talking quite emotionally about what the past few

502
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: years of his life have been and.

503
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: Again making that comment that I want all of my

504
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: fans to stand down, etc. It's noteworthy of where Fwind

505
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: has his head is right, Yeah, and of the media

506
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 2: environment he must exist in terms of, like personally what

507
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: comes to him. And I'm very curious if I could,

508
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: if I could somehow know everything Nick Fuintes has been

509
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: texted and been texting over the last seventy two hours. God,

510
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: that would be fascinating.

511
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: He said.

512
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: The people on the left were telling him it's his

513
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 4: responsibility to try to turn things down, and he was

514
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 4: kind of upset about that. Yeah, and during the stream,

515
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 4: Fuentes was not discussing the shooter as if the shooter

516
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 4: was a groper, or even suspecting the shooter was a groper.

517
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 4: Nick telling his audience or whoever listening, to put down

518
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 4: your arms and not jump to quick emotional violence was

519
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 4: in reference to retaliatory violence against the Left for their

520
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 4: killing of Charlie Kirk. That was the way Twentes was

521
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: talking about the shooting through the course of this hour

522
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: long stream. It did not seem to me that he

523
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 4: was trying to cover his bases in case the shooter

524
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 4: was a groper. That wasn't how he was discussing. He

525
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: certainly laid a lot of blame on the Left, and

526
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: he seemed very scared about the direction of the country.

527
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 4: Someone showed up with a weapon to his house less

528
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 4: than a year ago, and I think some of his

529
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 4: fear is absolutely genuine. It's not just trying to cover

530
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 4: his ass in case this guy turns out to be

531
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 4: a groper.

532
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: No, he's in danger because of the things he did.

533
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: He invited the danger into his life by being Nick

534
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: quint As. But he is in danger.

535
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, No. It was a very odd stream.

536
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 4: I tuned into nickquint As every once in a while

537
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 4: just to keep track of what he was doing, like

538
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: a healthy person.

539
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: It's my job.

540
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: I know, I woke up at four am to stock

541
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: a murderer's family on Facebook. Garrison.

542
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 4: So it was in the first fifteen minutes of the

543
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 4: stream where Nick discussed these more theoretical elements, how spiritual

544
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: or societal forces kind of use people as puppets, not

545
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: in a like fully end he see way, but as

546
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 4: an evolutionary method of charting the path of society. Nick

547
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 4: then wents to go on to discuss Charlie Kirk, how

548
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: he's beefed with Charlie in the past, how they've disagreed

549
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 4: on nearly everything, but goes on to say some nice

550
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 4: things about Charlie for the first time, and then calls

551
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 4: for everyone to lay down their arms. Now is not

552
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: the time to jump to quick action. We should reflect,

553
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. But in those first fifteen minutes

554
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 4: he talks about like what this shooting means for American culture.

555
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: And I've been watching some of his other recent streams

556
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: where he's kind of been going after some of his

557
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 4: fans for just being completely like brain dead, just repeating

558
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 4: racist tropes with no real thought, just talking about Hitler

559
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: in this memified way, and it feels like he's sort

560
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: of reflecting on both what he's done with his life

561
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 4: ever since he's been a teenager and the world that

562
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 4: he has helped bring into being. He talks about never

563
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 4: having much of an actual sincere or participation in polic

564
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 4: how it's always been so bombastic and mimetic, and it

565
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: appears as if he's kind of stuck doing this bit forever,

566
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 4: like he decided that this is what his life was

567
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 4: going to be as a teenager, and now he's in

568
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: his mid twenties, and from these other recent streams, it

569
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 4: feels like he's kind of fed up with how his

570
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: audience is just appearing completely mindless, very Larpee, endlessly repeating

571
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: Hitler references, reflection racism, and how he's trapped himself in

572
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: this political game. And a quote he said is that

573
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 4: this is not a game. This is life and death.

574
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 4: And as we've just seen, like this is literally life

575
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 4: and death. This is not just online memes anymore. We

576
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 4: can't treat politics as an online meme game anymore, because

577
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 4: these real life characters are getting killed, they framed a

578
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 4: lot of this in very spiritual warfare language, like they

579
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 4: killed Charlie for being Christian, or talking about Jesus though

580
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 4: stressing to his listeners like Jesus not actually pick up

581
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 4: arms and fight. Yeah, and people should calm down and

582
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 4: reflect because how the country handles this event will be

583
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 4: heavily deterministic. Yes, in what the country looks like going forward.

584
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 4: That's and that's what he was expressing.

585
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And I think that that's that's a really

586
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: important point for people to get across that, like there's

587
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: there's the immediate battle in front of us, right, which

588
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: is why it's so tempting sometimes to take the easy Oh,

589
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: that's this guy was one of theirs. That that means

590
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: we don't have to keep thinking about it, or it

591
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: means that we can kind of just like move forward

592
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: with this as another right wing attack. And there's a

593
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: degree to which, you know, it's good just for the

594
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: rights narrative machine to get upset by the fact that

595
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: even if it turns out this guy at a left

596
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: wing motivation, he's weirder and more confusing than they want

597
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: him to be. And he's not you know, the transgender

598
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: terrorists they were hoping he.

599
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: Would be certainly not trans right to give.

600
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: Them permission to do all the fucked up shit they

601
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: wanted to do. You know, if they need permission, I mean,

602
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: they seem to feel like they need an excuse.

603
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 4: He Trump creates permission, some of his followers might appreciate permissions.

604
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: I guess yeah. One thing that is undeniable is there

605
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: was an extreme desire from a lot of these guys

606
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: for this to be tied in with their ongoing attacks

607
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: on trans people in the left. Totally right, And so

608
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: I understand even the argument that, like anything that disrupts

609
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: their narrative train there, even if it winds up not

610
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: being accurate, there's a value in it. I do understand

611
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: that argument. But on a larger thing, if we just

612
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: care about terrorism and like why people get radicalized to

613
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: do things and how and understanding these phenomenons.

614
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: Like actually understanding how our country is unfolding.

615
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: Right, that influence all of our lives, right, And usually

616
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: usually what happens is not a single guy getting shot

617
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: for a specific reason, usually a bunch of people who

618
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the grievances expressed getting shot. Right.

619
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: That's usually when somebody decides to pick up a gun

620
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: and go into public because the inner they they got radicalized,

621
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: usually a bunch of randomness and people die, which is

622
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: again why it's just really important to try to understand

623
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: the underlying dynamics, even in a specific case like this,

624
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: and why I actually do care about the truth here,

625
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: even though that that's not as convenient maybe as we'd

626
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: like it to be. I don't know what else, What

627
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: else do we want to talk about here?

628
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 6: No?

629
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 4: I mean, like, I think this event will be extremely important, yeh.

630
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: Something that Fuen has talked about is how even if

631
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 4: you've never met Kirk, whether you hate Kirk or whether

632
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 4: you love Kirk, Kirk has been a parasocial force in

633
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 4: probably everyone who's listening to this their lives for years,

634
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 4: and watching him bleed out gruesomely is massively effective. I

635
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: think the reason why people are reacting to this so

636
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 4: much more strongly than the murder of a state senator

637
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 4: and her husband is that we did not have a

638
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 4: personal relationship with that state senator, nor was there a

639
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: video of them gruesomely bleeding out. And people's emotions affect

640
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: how they understand reality, and the Charlie Kirk murder has

641
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: been emotionally affecting for a lot of people, both positively

642
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 4: and negatively, and it was very graphic, and it's spread

643
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 4: around Like watching someone who you know, whether personally or

644
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 4: parasocially die on video through the medium in which they

645
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: gained their fame, is going to be a very large,

646
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 4: to use a really bad pun turning point for the USA.

647
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 4: And I think that's part of why everyone's so volatile

648
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 4: around this issue, because I think everyone realizes how important

649
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: this moment will be. Despite the deaths of Palestinian children vastly,

650
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 4: vastly outnumber the deaths of one conservative commentator.

651
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like logically we could all say

652
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: that that's wrong and fucked up, but like you just

653
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: you know, that's how people work, right, how people work.

654
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: We all know that's how people work. I'm not saying

655
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: that's okay, I just you know.

656
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: No, but it's it's it's it's the way, it's the

657
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 3: way things work.

658
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know, like because again we again

659
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: still cannot say at this point that there was just

660
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: a kanity Fair article came out that's kind of repeating

661
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: some of the Groper stuff. But I looked in my post,

662
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: is their source on that, So they don't have anything

663
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: new on the Groper front.

664
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 4: So no, they're just thinking that the squatting Slavs meme

665
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 4: is evidence, yeah, tied to the Pepe version of the meme,

666
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 4: which is then linked to Groyper, which is a specific

667
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 4: type of Pepe, not the skinny Pepe. H.

668
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: I'm so tired, Roberts.

669
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: I'm really tired. I don't know if this guy liked

670
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: Nick Flintes. I will say he probably had an opinion

671
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: about Nick Flintes. He was aware of them. The dude right,

672
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: like he was that level of online for sure.

673
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, which twenty two year old gamer mail doesn't.

674
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, right exactly.

675
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: Again, It's like I was talking about when before we

676
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: knew who it was, when we just had the video,

677
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: because I did accurately anticipate that it was someone who

678
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: learned how to shoot through hunting with a bolt action rifle.

679
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: That's just what the shot looked like to me when

680
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: I saw it, Yeah, which wound up being accurate. And

681
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who were like questioning

682
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: that on the grounds of like, well, though this had

683
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: to be like a train sniper or something like that,

684
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: and it's like.

685
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 4: This looks like a professional hit to me, Robert, or no,

686
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: a MASAD agent either.

687
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: Or yeah, like no, literally, all we knew is that

688
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: it was somebody who was able to like competent with

689
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: a firearm.

690
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 3: That's all you could say.

691
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: And probably it was not a semi automatic because people

692
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: in stressful situations, if they can usually keep shooting, right.

693
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: They would have hired more than one shot.

694
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: And was like, yeah, yeah, that's all. That's all we

695
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: could say, which narrowed it down to everyone in Utah.

696
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: Like like that's when I try to emphasize this, that

697
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: like what I can say from this is that anyone

698
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: in Utah could have shot Charlie Kirk at that point,

699
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: and sure enough it turned out being almost.

700
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: Like average twenty two year old Utonian. Yeah, you've.

701
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: Positive normal Utah kid, that's what this guy looks like

702
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 2: so far.

703
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, there's a lot of like semi racist

704
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: or semi misogynist gamers out there. They're not necessarily grapers, right,

705
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 4: And we don't even know how racist this guy was.

706
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 4: There's no indication one way or another. He certainly had

707
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: an awareness of online culture, but everyone who makes a

708
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: hell divers two reference is going to have a pretty

709
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 4: large awareness of online culture, and that does not indicate

710
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 4: what his quote unquote beliefs are, just an awareness and

711
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 4: an existence within that culture.

712
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: Yep. Well, I can't think of anything else to say

713
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: at the moment about this. It's unclear to me the

714
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: degree to which this has shifted the national discourse on it.

715
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: I have seen it looks like the way in which

716
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: the conservatives are talking about this guy in the shooting,

717
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: it looks like they have changed, at least some of them,

718
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: because it's less clear at least the number of people

719
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 2: right we're seeing.

720
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 4: The Groper counter narrative has introduced doubt, which will influence

721
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 4: some conservatives understanding of the shooting. Others will keep hitting

722
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 4: and that leftist antifa line. I have seen certain people

723
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 4: claim that the Groper narrative is even changing the way

724
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 4: Trump talks about the shooting because Trump is not referencing

725
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk as much or is avoiding questions about how

726
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 4: he feeling in regards to Kirk's death. Yeah, Trump has

727
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 4: never cared about Charlie Kirk. Okay Vance certainly has. He's

728
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: like closer to like Dvance's orbit. But Donald Trump doesn't

729
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 4: give a single fuck about Charlie Kirk. Absolutely not this little,

730
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 4: this little puny man, Like, no, Trump does not care.

731
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 4: It makes sense that one asked how Trump feels about

732
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 4: about Charlie Kirk's as and and and if he's feeling okay,

733
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, I feel fine. What I'm really excited

734
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 4: about is that we're constructing the new White House ball Rose. Yeah,

735
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 4: Like that's not indication that Trump's been told that this

736
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: guy's actually a rightist and now has to not talk

737
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 4: about how the left is ruining the country. Now, it's

738
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 4: that Trump does not care about Arliekark that much. And

739
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 4: it's been a few days, so yeah, he's gonna move on.

740
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's you know, if you're wanting to game

741
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: theory this out of the ethics of just muddying the

742
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: waters to disrupt their momentum, well there's an argument to

743
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: be made there.

744
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: I can see that. I can see the utility in that.

745
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

746
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 4: My utility is, I would say, at the very least

747
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 4: equal to that.

748
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: Right.

749
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: That's having an accurate understanding.

750
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: I want to know what happened to the world to.

751
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: Predict future trends and like understand the trajectory of political

752
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 4: violence in the United States. Yeah, and that's what my

753
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: interest in stressing evidentiary standards for understanding the motivations behind

754
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 4: this attack and the online communities and cultures that this

755
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 4: attack has emerged from.

756
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: Right. And I would say, if you're looking in your

757
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: own life, how can I tell which side of things

758
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 2: I'm on? Just imagine everything was reversed in the case where,

759
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: like you think, this is really clear evidence that this

760
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: person was motivated by whoever you hate the most, and

761
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: that whatever ideology you hate is why they did it.

762
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: If it were the opposite and the same level of

763
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: evidence was being used to accuse someone who was on

764
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: your side of things, would you consider the evidence presented enough? Right?

765
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: And That's where what I'm looking at is, I have

766
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: not seen enough evidence to buy into either side fully.

767
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: Yet I can make a case in my head that

768
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: he's a groper, and there's some pieces of evidence that

769
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 2: fit with that. And I can make a case in

770
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: my head that he's a guy who hates Charlie Kirk,

771
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: and there's quotes from some interviews that would back that up,

772
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: but neither of them is a solid At the moment

773
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: that we're recording. This is a solid hypothesis to me

774
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: or just.

775
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: A vaguely right wing board gamer right or just a

776
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 3: right wing board.

777
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 4: Who has zoomer angst, and it manifested this way, as

778
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 4: many other people have manifested their zoomer anks through an

779
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 4: act of political violence. Yeah, like groper, a very specific

780
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 4: term means a specific thing. It doesn't just mean a

781
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 4: gen z conservative.

782
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 2: Yep, No, it does not. And I think that's where

783
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: we're going to have to leave you for the day.

784
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: We may have appenned an update to this, depending on

785
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: what else is out. I do think that most of

786
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: what we're talking about is pretty even though there will

787
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: be more information at the time you listen to it,

788
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: pretty timeless in terms of how you should think about

789
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:52,439
Speaker 2: shit like this.

790
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: How you react to whatever the next assassination is going

791
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 4: to be, because this is an increasing trend in American politics.

792
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 2: Look, if you care and if you stance, if your

793
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: principled stance with all the evidence is I don't care.

794
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: All that matters is defeating the right. So all I

795
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: care about is what's convenient in terms of disrupting their narratives.

796
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: Then go on and live your life. But that's not

797
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: the way. We we're gonna do things here. When we

798
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: look at these tacks, we are going to try to

799
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: figure out what happened, even if it's inconvenient, and it

800
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: may be, you know, we don't know what this guy yet.

801
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 4: Touch some fucking grass before you touch grass. I'm recording

802
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 4: one more update Sunday morning. Yesterday, right wing outlets and

803
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 4: then axios and now even more mainstream outlet's started reporting

804
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 4: that the shooter, Tyler Robinson, had a transgender roommate and

805
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 4: that investigators believe the two had some sort of romantic relationship.

806
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 4: Some information from law enforcement officials about this investigation has

807
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 4: been shown to be dubious at best, but it is

808
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 4: true that the shooter had a roommate who does appear

809
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 4: to be transgender. The roommate's TikTok can be traced to

810
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: a Reddit account where they post about being trans and

811
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 4: post on r slash trans r slash trans diy as

812
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 4: well as r slash four tran, and also posts on

813
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 4: r slash green Text and r slash four Chan. Also

814
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 4: active in a variety of video games subreddits, Magic the

815
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: Gathering Memes subreddits, r slash Distressing Memes, r slash Reddit

816
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 4: moment r slash Unpopular Opinion r slash Lord of the

817
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 4: Rings Memes, r slash prehistoric Memes, r slash dank meme,

818
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 4: r slash nothing Ever Happens. Also post on r slash BYRL,

819
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 4: r slash Anarcho Capitalism r slash Jordan Peterson, as well

820
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 4: as the four Chan themed subreddits. I should also note

821
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 4: that scrolling these subreddits is not necessarily indicative of someone's

822
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 4: political orientation. I myself scroll many of these subreddits, as

823
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 4: do actually a political friends of mine who check out

824
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 4: these subreddits regularly just for shits and giggles. This is

825
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 4: politics as meme subredits like Political Compass and TPUSA are

826
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 4: popular political subreddits with explicitly comedic purpose, including making fun

827
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 4: of Charlie Kirk in a memified fashion. And I don't

828
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 4: know if the roommate visited those two specific subredits, but

829
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 4: I'm just using them as an example. Utah Governor Spencer

830
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 4: Cox says that the roommate did not have any knowledge

831
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: of Tyler Robinson's planned attack and has been incredibly cooperative

832
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 4: throughout the course of the investigation. Sources have told Axios

833
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 4: that investigators initially wanted information about the roommates' gender identity

834
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 4: to not be publicly reported. The right is certainly eager

835
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 4: to make any sort of transgender connection to this shooting.

836
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: The New York Post has referred to this shooting as

837
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 4: another shooting by trans people and their advocates. The actual

838
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 4: motivation of the shooter is still currently unknown. Governor Cox

839
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 4: has described his ideology as leftist, while also noting quote,

840
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 4: there was a lot of gaming going on. Friends have

841
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 4: confirmed that there was that deep dark internet Reddit culture

842
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 4: and other dark places of the Internet where this person

843
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 4: was going deep. You saw that on the casings. I

844
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 4: didn't have any idea what those inscriptions meant, but they

845
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 4: are certainly the memification that is happening in our society today.

846
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 3: Unquote. That's pretty much all we know so far. Now

847
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 3: go touch some grass.

848
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 8: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

849
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

850
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 8: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

851
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 8: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

852
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 8: You can now find sources for it could Happen here

853
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 8: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.