Speaker 1: Pushkin. I first discovered Leonard Cohen, like most people, through
Speaker 1: a song Hallelujah, a beautiful and complex song with a
Speaker 1: ton of verses. But I grew to love him after
Speaker 1: discovering his early albums, full of nylon string guitars and
Speaker 1: songs much more succinct than Hallelujah. The Leonard never got
Speaker 1: quite the amount of attention that his peers did, Like
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, he was every bit the
Speaker 1: poet they are. Cohen died in twenty sixteen, less than
Speaker 1: a month after the release of his last album. It
Speaker 1: was a project recorded in his modest duplex in the
Speaker 1: mid Wiltshire neighborhood of Los Angeles. Leonard made the album
Speaker 1: with his son, Adam Cohen. It wasn't meant to be
Speaker 1: his last work, but it felt like a fitting end
Speaker 1: until this turned up. While morning his father's death, Adam
Speaker 1: took some of the poetry Lenard had recorded and set
Speaker 1: it to music, And now, very unexpectedly, we have a
Speaker 1: brand new album from Leonard co called Thanks for the Dance.
Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here. You can
Speaker 1: listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode
Speaker 1: on our playlist, which you can find a link to
Speaker 1: in the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a
Speaker 1: song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect.
Speaker 1: All right. Enjoyed the episode. Rick Reuben knew Leonard Cohen
Speaker 1: for about a decade before it is passing. Afterwards, Leonard's
Speaker 1: son Adam reached out to Rick wanted to tell him
Speaker 1: a story about his father, the one you're about to hear.
Speaker 1: When's the last time we saw each other? I was
Speaker 1: trying to remember. It feels like so long, ill go
Speaker 1: all of it. I was trying to remember. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know the feeling that I was left with in
Speaker 1: that story that my dad always used to tell about you,
Speaker 1: and you became the brunt of a of almost like
Speaker 1: a punchline. But now the whole thing's dissipated into a
Speaker 1: general tapestry and feeling of you know, I guess a mix,
Speaker 1: a cocktail, a blend of maybe inaccuracies and feelings mixed together.
Speaker 1: But I want to try to summon if it's appropriate, Yes,
Speaker 1: the story about you. Hey, tell me the story as
Speaker 1: you remember it. It has something to do with his
Speaker 1: general feeling about himself not being a stallion in the
Speaker 1: race of show business. And by that I mean he
Speaker 1: would refer to other guys he came up with, whether
Speaker 1: it's Christopherson or Bayez or Janie or Dylan or all
Speaker 1: the cats that are coming up in his era as
Speaker 1: knowing what to do. He would say, these guys know
Speaker 1: what to do. All I've ever known is that a
Speaker 1: black in a page. You would say, that's where you
Speaker 1: have to understand that context before it. Rick Rubin enters
Speaker 1: into the conversation. So then then the question is two
Speaker 1: guys sitting at a table and some music industry related
Speaker 1: question emerges, and he says, I don't know, Adam. I
Speaker 1: mean they are like we should ask Rick, you know,
Speaker 1: like Rick Rubin would know this, And so very quickly
Speaker 1: that morphs into any question that we have ask Rick,
Speaker 1: ask Rick. You know, I come to him with a
Speaker 1: genuine question, Dad, you know, what should I do about
Speaker 1: this if it's music related? And then it turns a
Speaker 1: new punchline. He said, you know, Adam, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm about to say, ask Rick Rubin, And of course
Speaker 1: you know I hadn't met you know, It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I get and as I said, I didn't know any
Speaker 1: of this till you told me this after your dad passed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so I felt like I had to track you
Speaker 1: down on the off chance he was right. You know,
Speaker 1: I have to ask Rick, and I have subsequently asked
Speaker 1: you on many occasions, and you've proven right every time. Wow.
Speaker 1: So thank you pretty good in my pleasure. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing story. It makes me laugh every time to tell
Speaker 1: me about the new your dad's newest project. I know
Speaker 1: it's not incredible, it's so cool. I suppose that the
Speaker 1: most gratifying part, other than the fact that it wasn't
Speaker 1: a humiliating disaster, and the fact that it's resonant and
Speaker 1: that I think it's beautiful and people are responding to
Speaker 1: it so favorably, I think the headline is the person
Speaker 1: after person who hears it. One of the most gratifying
Speaker 1: things that is said of it time and time again
Speaker 1: is that they feel like, oh my god, Leonard Cohen
Speaker 1: is is still here. He's speaking to us still and
Speaker 1: with this message in tow with this beautiful offering and
Speaker 1: this command of language, this inimitable gift that he's always had,
Speaker 1: still having it. Of course, I could go into detail
Speaker 1: because I have to tell me about the specifics of
Speaker 1: the making of it, like how did it how did
Speaker 1: the idea come start? From the beginning, Well, the first
Speaker 1: thing that happened was my old man passed away, and
Speaker 1: I live about seven hundred and fifty meters down the
Speaker 1: same street where you visited. And I'm left with this
Speaker 1: notion that one of the ways in which I can
Speaker 1: visit with him so palpably as opposed to so many
Speaker 1: other people who lose a parent or someone. I've got
Speaker 1: all these recordings and they are the sum of his
Speaker 1: being in many instances. They are this some of what
Speaker 1: he practiced to be in this world, and they are
Speaker 1: literally his words, his voice, and recordings. And at one
Speaker 1: point I had of desperation and a tiny pinch of courage.
Speaker 1: I dared to open up two sessions in my backyard
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to sit with him. I missed him,
Speaker 1: and it was a way of of conversing, of remaining
Speaker 1: in dialogue with the guy. That was the beginning. And
Speaker 1: then something really unexpected and magical happened. A record is
Speaker 1: not a fete complete, you know. Even good songs do
Speaker 1: not result in good recordings. Even in your hands. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if the artist and the song and the
Speaker 1: producer and the musicians. It is not a guarantee of
Speaker 1: any anything. And so the fact that that a record
Speaker 1: actually emerged, that's finished, and that's resonant, and that's emotional,
Speaker 1: and that's truthful, it's not in my hands. I don't
Speaker 1: have the qualifications to do that. It emerged and it's
Speaker 1: it's out of our control. Yeah, And so I have
Speaker 1: two strikes against me for this record in terms of
Speaker 1: my actual true participation. You know, One is that I
Speaker 1: neither have great and esteemed credentials. And two, this wasn't
Speaker 1: my record. You know, I wasn't trying to make my choices.
Speaker 1: I was trying to at all times because of this
Speaker 1: conversation that I was in, I say, like, Dad, would
Speaker 1: do you like this? Is this what you would do?
Speaker 1: Is this truthful? And so it eliminated this tragic layer
Speaker 1: that we often impose on ourselves of doubt. It was
Speaker 1: I don't have to consult myself. All I have to
Speaker 1: do is consult him. He was very clear about what
Speaker 1: he didn't didn't like. And that's the great advantage that
Speaker 1: I had over people who are like you for example,
Speaker 1: I knew what he hated, of course, you know, you
Speaker 1: know what's interesting. Never thought about this before. But for
Speaker 1: any other artist this would be a more difficult process.
Speaker 1: But because Leonard's music always essentially started with the poetry
Speaker 1: and that was the basis of the greatness of the songs,
Speaker 1: the heavy lifting was already done. So this is the
Speaker 1: best example of being able to make something really truthful
Speaker 1: to him, where the participation that he already did really
Speaker 1: is the key. Yeah, I was thinking that on the
Speaker 1: drive up here. Know, there's a there's a song called
Speaker 1: the Goal, which is it's literally no more than a
Speaker 1: minute long. And his reading, which had no music, it
Speaker 1: was just a reading. His reading sounds like a Thesbian
Speaker 1: from the other side of the world. The command of language,
Speaker 1: the cinematic transport of quality. And then to end, you know,
Speaker 1: by saying, and no one to follow, nothing to teach
Speaker 1: except that the goal falls short of the reach. So beautiful, amazing,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. I wholeheartedly agree. It's so wonderful that that exists,
Speaker 1: and it's so true. What a truthful position that he had.
Speaker 1: I can see him sitting in his little fedor and
Speaker 1: in his suit, staring at his window, returning a neighbor's
Speaker 1: smile with that sense of defeat. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: the word defeat to people has this binary quality. To
Speaker 1: most people, it's measured against winning, for example. But to him,
Speaker 1: it was part of this thesis that he had that
Speaker 1: his whole life was about, which is brokenness, broken hallelujah,
Speaker 1: the crack and everything, the whole notion that defeat and
Speaker 1: imperfection and brokenness was the fabric of the experience. And
Speaker 1: then instead of just you know, having a plaintiff assertion
Speaker 1: that the real generosity was to write about it in
Speaker 1: a way that you hadn't considered with generosity, with voluptuousness,
Speaker 1: with inventiveness, and then you know, you could, on top
Speaker 1: of it said, it's to a melody, you know, like
Speaker 1: a like what nicotine is in a cigarette, Like it's
Speaker 1: a nicotine delivery system. He was giving you, like a
Speaker 1: transcendent delivery system. That's what he was trying to do.
Speaker 1: Every time he would hate that I said that, But
Speaker 1: that's what I think he was trying to do. What
Speaker 1: was it like growing up with him, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: spend with him in through childhood. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: that that's a question that I can answer in a
Speaker 1: complete manner, you know. I mean the immediate answer is
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I've only had that, so I
Speaker 1: have nothing else to measure it against. That it was
Speaker 1: incredible now that he's gone, and that I consult him
Speaker 1: more as a man than a parent, and I see
Speaker 1: him as a as a lifetime of choices, fantastic, altruistic, amazing, bizarre, eccentric,
Speaker 1: devoted religious seeker like choices, I find him ever more remarkable.
Speaker 1: And the fact that he was able to, you know,
Speaker 1: remain in his children's lives despite it not really being
Speaker 1: an appetite of his at the beginning. But for me,
Speaker 1: there was this torture of what he called the family business.
Speaker 1: Now he could call it the family business, and he
Speaker 1: would say all the Cohen boys and the family business,
Speaker 1: and you know, but if I dared say the family business,
Speaker 1: you know, he would say, like, what do you mean
Speaker 1: family business? You know, you're you know. It was it
Speaker 1: was this endless geyser of support and understanding. I mean,
Speaker 1: he would lean over my he would lean over my
Speaker 1: notebook and give me suggestions. He would, you know, he
Speaker 1: would say, this is what you got to do. You know,
Speaker 1: although you gotta ask Rick because I don't know. But
Speaker 1: and at the same time, you know, I remember I
Speaker 1: when in Instagram came around and I my handle was
Speaker 1: his commander Cohen and he found out about it. So
Speaker 1: you're stealing my identity, I said, Dad, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? You know, like you were saying it laughingly?
Speaker 1: That's the thing. No, you know, he was. He was like,
Speaker 1: for example, there wasn't there was an article in which,
Speaker 1: you know, I had said like kind of something like, look,
Speaker 1: there's no one like Leonard Cohen, but I'm like a
Speaker 1: certainly on the mainland, but I'm the closest thing to it,
Speaker 1: if you know, we're talking about way off shore, distant
Speaker 1: little you know, distant little eyelets. And he said, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? Your the closest thing to Leonard Cohen?
Speaker 1: You know, this is the kind of I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether he was as irritated as the
Speaker 1: tone indicated, but again it was also accompanied by this,
Speaker 1: you know, Dad, I quit, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: your producer. This is ridiculous, said Dad. He says, Adam,
Speaker 1: where are you going? I can't do this without you,
Speaker 1: you know. So there was this wonderful and constant contradiction.
Speaker 1: You know, like I referred to his music one time
Speaker 1: in a magazine as mytho romantic, and I thought, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is so perfect. It really is mytho romantic.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the idea that that woman is
Speaker 1: God and God is woman, and and and you know,
Speaker 1: the be the the cathedral that his words are echoing
Speaker 1: in of, and that he built stone by stone, word
Speaker 1: by word. And he says, he says, remind me to
Speaker 1: reduce your uh to a couple of words, kid, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Dad, what are you talking about it?
Speaker 1: You know, mytho romantic. It's good. And then you know,
Speaker 1: two Sabbath dinners later, he's like my son who coined
Speaker 1: the term mytho romantic, putting his arm around me. This
Speaker 1: is this is crazy and exactly. And of course none
Speaker 1: of it was malicious, and I didn't. I never felt
Speaker 1: like it was in an episode of succession where I
Speaker 1: was gonna, you know, like he was gonna try to
Speaker 1: kill me. But given the modesty, it goes back to
Speaker 1: your original question, which was, like, what was it like
Speaker 1: living with him? He was so modest, he was so
Speaker 1: down on earth, I mean, this is a guy who
Speaker 1: lived in a an apartment and I drove a nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty four Nissan Pathfinder whose battery need to be jumped
Speaker 1: every morning, you know. I mean, yes, he did go
Speaker 1: through a five thousand dollar can of caviar, you know,
Speaker 1: and in the same afternoon, and he did have a
Speaker 1: propensity for Hebrew national kosher salami. But it was this
Speaker 1: elegant old world man who I think the reason I
Speaker 1: stumbled in answering you earlier was because it provoked such
Speaker 1: a feeling. And the feeling is this, he had so
Speaker 1: many distinguishing characteristics that I wished I could find in
Speaker 1: myself that it was never oppressive, but it was unachievable,
Speaker 1: unachievable for most anybody, for sure. But he liked you, though,
Speaker 1: and often said things of that nature about you. To
Speaker 1: me incredible, Yeah, but you know what I mean. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking about a kind of larger than lifeness. And
Speaker 1: at the same time, he was this little jew who
Speaker 1: wrote the Bible, you know. Yeah, can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about his spirituality? Not in a way he
Speaker 1: would approve of as you saw it your perspective. I
Speaker 1: think he was a seeker. I think he just had
Speaker 1: an appetite. You know, if I was to two cent
Speaker 1: psychoanalyze him, i'd i'd say, a guy who loses his
Speaker 1: father at the age of nine years old is always
Speaker 1: looking for something, and in this case it was the
Speaker 1: archetypal man, the source of strength and wisdom. And although
Speaker 1: he found pillars of that strength and wisdom within certain
Speaker 1: segments of Judaism, he also found it in Christianity and
Speaker 1: Catherine Tata and in several masters that he followed along
Speaker 1: the way, and in wine, and in women, and in
Speaker 1: song and in listen. He met my mother while he
Speaker 1: was in scientology for a brief moment with el Ron Hubbard,
Speaker 1: I mean, anything, anything goes if it's got a little
Speaker 1: bit of a buzz speed, absinthe, medical marijuana, whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember him always offering absinthe whenever I would see him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he liked I Yeah, he loved it and didn't have
Speaker 1: to be with a substance. He just loved to let
Speaker 1: go of that fascining, that oppressive fascinating that we that
Speaker 1: we do almost involuntarily to the center of ourselves, which
Speaker 1: is not even a very pleasant place to be. Remember
Speaker 1: asking him if he if he read any of the
Speaker 1: newer poets, and he said that he only reads spiritual texts. Now,
Speaker 1: he doesn't look at anything. He's not interested in anything
Speaker 1: beyond spiritual texts. That was interesting. Yeah, I didn't follow
Speaker 1: too closely what he was reading other than what he
Speaker 1: would tell me, and there was a I think he's again,
Speaker 1: these are all admissions that I'm having trouble making, because
Speaker 1: you know, I sort of feel like he would say,
Speaker 1: Jesus Adam, you're incorrigible. I mean, I don't demystify me.
Speaker 1: I've spent my whole life putting veils up. But I
Speaker 1: think he had forfeited reading for the irresistible ease of
Speaker 1: online publications of lectures online. And I know that he
Speaker 1: was following some pretty wacky folks, you know, from from
Speaker 1: rabbis and seeks to Hindu gurus, and you know, he
Speaker 1: was deep, deep into listening to people speaking. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: invited me to see Rabbi Findley with him several times.
Speaker 1: I've still have not yet done it. Still, let's go,
Speaker 1: let's go, let's go one of these days. He's He's
Speaker 1: a beautiful, robust, interesting, charismatic character. Ex marine from Irish
Speaker 1: descent who became incredibly versed and and all things Jewish,
Speaker 1: but with a with a really modern and moderate bent.
Speaker 1: Very cool that after the break will debut a song
Speaker 1: from Lennon Cohen's new album, Thanks for the Dance. We're
Speaker 1: back with Adam Cohen. Should we talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about the the album before this one, the last one
Speaker 1: he was present for. Well, that was beautiful for me,
Speaker 1: and not just because the record turned out beautifully and
Speaker 1: all that my father passed away only three weeks after
Speaker 1: it came out. He did get to, you know, when
Speaker 1: he played it for you came over to the house,
Speaker 1: or when he played it for people whose opinion he
Speaker 1: was seeking, or with whom he just wanted to share
Speaker 1: the music, and then eventually the world that that a
Speaker 1: collect you know, this is where it's He was such
Speaker 1: an unset, intimental guy that I almost feel like I'm trespassing.
Speaker 1: But for me, it was sentimental to be summoned to
Speaker 1: work with my father in whose footsteps I tried with
Speaker 1: clumsiness to follow, to go from basically glorified coffee boy,
Speaker 1: you know, in the basement of the building, to ending
Speaker 1: up in the penthouse making boardroom decisions with the boss
Speaker 1: except the Boss was in a medical chair, you know,
Speaker 1: in his living room in mid Wilshire. To to actually
Speaker 1: having this resonant music, to to wrestling with the Master
Speaker 1: and and not getting creamed. And in fact, you know,
Speaker 1: when another thing that when you came up in conversation,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and pardon me for the oversimplified,
Speaker 1: but when when he would say, you know, Rick or
Speaker 1: or Don Was or Dan Lan, they want they want
Speaker 1: me to go back, They want me to they want
Speaker 1: me to literally regress to making you know, an old
Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen album with just nylon string guitars and stuff like.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, you know, like I'm
Speaker 1: not a museum piece. I'm not even particularly nostalgic. But
Speaker 1: of course I believe that you were right, and and
Speaker 1: that that desire for Leonard Cohen to tickle that and
Speaker 1: evoke that sense that we have in our mind's eye
Speaker 1: of what Leonard Cohen is not just not just spiritually,
Speaker 1: not just lyrically, but also sonically in terms of the
Speaker 1: architecture that accompanies him was such a strong desire. And
Speaker 1: when he finally was weak enough to relent and allow
Speaker 1: that just for a second, especially with this his son
Speaker 1: to have that nylon string guitar come back to quiet
Speaker 1: the background vocals and excavate enough space for him in
Speaker 1: the verses so that the narratorship was unchallenged and they
Speaker 1: could go back to that other union that he had created,
Speaker 1: which is at Yin and Yang, where he has this
Speaker 1: masculine baritone narrator narratorship and then there's this incredible generous
Speaker 1: complicitness from the female backgrounds. So there's this union and
Speaker 1: this is an architecture that he helped excavate, so to
Speaker 1: restore that. But at the end of his life, with
Speaker 1: that gravity, with that somberness, with that sharpness, with that
Speaker 1: courage to go into the darkness and come back with
Speaker 1: a little, a little parcel of truth that he had,
Speaker 1: it was incredibly outifying, you know, and touching for me.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned his medical chair. When I came to
Speaker 1: visit him, he literally looked like a king in the throne.
Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. He was so elegantly dressed as always, yes,
Speaker 1: but so beautiful and sitting in this grand chair in
Speaker 1: this small space. Yeah, it really took my breath away.
Speaker 1: Every time I visited him, it was always, it was
Speaker 1: always thrilling for me, but maybe even more so than
Speaker 1: and none of us. I mean, I certainly didn't know
Speaker 1: that he was going anytime soon, because we were already
Speaker 1: talking about what he was going to do next. It's
Speaker 1: like he already told me he was excited. He was
Speaker 1: writing for the next album, which is which is now happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: he was living you know. I often said to my
Speaker 1: friend here Michael again mixed and recorded both that record
Speaker 1: and this one. You know, I said, like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's staying alive for this. This is the only thing
Speaker 1: he's living for. And often, unfortunately that statement was made,
Speaker 1: or that declaration was was uttered when we were going nowhere,
Speaker 1: and it just felt like he was stalling. And it
Speaker 1: was like, Dad, we get it. When you finished this record,
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna let go, But only when you
Speaker 1: finished the work. He was a pit bull at the
Speaker 1: sleeve of this mission, whether it was blackening pages or
Speaker 1: finishing a lyric and then refinishing it, you know. But
Speaker 1: it was this indelible and very clear sense that he
Speaker 1: was living for the work. That's all he was living,
Speaker 1: and that was that was why when he played me
Speaker 1: the new finished work, The first thing I said was, so,
Speaker 1: what's the next song going to be? Like? What the
Speaker 1: you know, have you started on the next album? Yet
Speaker 1: knowing that he needed that, Yeah, and knowing that we
Speaker 1: want to hear that it's good for everybody. Did he
Speaker 1: did he do that thing that he did he sometimes
Speaker 1: we do almost like a magician with a card trick.
Speaker 1: Did he dispense on you lyrics that he was working on? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Wasn't that just magical? Yeah? I mean one of the
Speaker 1: things I missed the most is, you know, dropping by
Speaker 1: and having him without a tell a prompter. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking about a man who is literally swimming in
Speaker 1: Tom's and Tom's and Tom's of not just words, but
Speaker 1: like heavy con dentse and delicious language, and for him
Speaker 1: to pull him out, you know, and it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: whether it's pulling out Blake or Shakespeare or his own work,
Speaker 1: the lucidity and the sharpness right to the end. But
Speaker 1: then to hear the deliciousness of a concoction that he was,
Speaker 1: you know, in the in the throes of you know,
Speaker 1: wasn't that it? Isn't that just a delicious number? Believably
Speaker 1: unbelievably thrilling and I'm sure over the years there were
Speaker 1: many that you got to hear that maybe never came
Speaker 1: to Well, you know, it's funny you say that, because
Speaker 1: on this record I had to beg him. I said, Dad,
Speaker 1: you know that song Puppets, just just speak it. I
Speaker 1: know you, I've known you are not co signing. You
Speaker 1: don't believe that there's music that exists for this, or
Speaker 1: Night of Santiago, or there's several others where I said,
Speaker 1: just just read it, read it to a to a metronome. Yes,
Speaker 1: we'll figure that out later, but don't not speak this
Speaker 1: into a microphone. Yes, And that's how delicious some of
Speaker 1: those moments were. You know, Yeah, there's some unfortunately I
Speaker 1: didn't get. In fact, the last song on this album,
Speaker 1: it's called Listen to the Hummingbird. And we were done
Speaker 1: with a record and Michael and I were in Berlin
Speaker 1: at a festival called People Festival, which is organized by
Speaker 1: justin Vernon, Bonniver and the Desners from the National and
Speaker 1: Bonnie Beer's music was We were sharing a studio and
Speaker 1: they were We had a shared wall and all of
Speaker 1: these incredible moving evocketive sonics were coming through the wall
Speaker 1: and instead of hating him and resenting him for interrupting
Speaker 1: what would otherwise have been our session. We were inspired
Speaker 1: and and we said our so oh my goodness. The
Speaker 1: very last time this man spoke in public, he impromptu
Speaker 1: did what we're talking about. He said, hey, do you
Speaker 1: want to hear something I'm working on? And he read
Speaker 1: into a fifty eight in a halligen lit conference room
Speaker 1: a press event, he read out loud this poem, and
Speaker 1: we remember it. Contacted, Sony said, is there any way
Speaker 1: you could locate that one moment in that Prince conference,
Speaker 1: turn it into a wave file, send it to us,
Speaker 1: and with this stuff coming through the shared wall, we
Speaker 1: compose this, uh, this track. Yeah, it's such a pleasure
Speaker 1: hearing him speak. It was delicious. Yeah, Yeah, I miss it,
Speaker 1: I really, I really miss it. You know. On the
Speaker 1: last the last album was that recorded with his band.
Speaker 1: Nothing was recorded with his band. No with the sort
Speaker 1: of sonic defining characteristic of the last record. Not this
Speaker 1: new one was a men's choir that's also on this
Speaker 1: on this album. In fact, on this album there's a
Speaker 1: song called Puppets, where it boldly starts with German puppets,
Speaker 1: burnt the Jews, Jewish puppets did not choose. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is an arresting and bold beginning to any lyric
Speaker 1: that arguably should maybe not even be in a song.
Speaker 1: But that men's choir, the Jewish men's choir, and this
Speaker 1: Berlin based German choir are both on the song, and
Speaker 1: they're both singing, let's listen to that. That's pretty it's
Speaker 1: a pretty wacky one. Okay. He seems to be saying,
Speaker 1: we're all puppets, Yes, sir. Yeah. He was studying with
Speaker 1: this guy called Balsakar in India where he would he
Speaker 1: would go after Roshi, his zen teacher, passed away, and
Speaker 1: the thesis of Balsakar, which he was really taken by
Speaker 1: at the end and became his sort of central spiritual backbone,
Speaker 1: was there is no doer. There is no doer whatsoever.
Speaker 1: It's a kind of fatalistic, but without the oppressiveness of
Speaker 1: the word fatalist, This idea that it's all written by
Speaker 1: some program. So puppets for sure, but even but even
Speaker 1: smaller than puppets. You know, he would often say, you
Speaker 1: can read every word on the page, you just can't
Speaker 1: change any of them in the script of your life.
Speaker 1: And also speaks to the resignment in the lyric that
Speaker 1: you quoted earlier of waving to the neighbor, and yeah,
Speaker 1: the resignation of I sit in my chair, I look
Speaker 1: at the street. The neighbor returns my smile of defeat.
Speaker 1: I move with the leaves, I shine with the chrome.
Speaker 1: I'm almost alive. I'm almost at home. Yeah. And also
Speaker 1: it relates to the we were talking about in the
Speaker 1: in the in the making of art process, the fact
Speaker 1: that it's out of our control. It all, it's it's all,
Speaker 1: it's all one thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Again,
Speaker 1: I go back to being infuriated by his contradictions. I
Speaker 1: just have another another story again. You know. I finished
Speaker 1: a record at one point, and I met him at
Speaker 1: Starbucks on will Sharon Lebrea, and I had this big
Speaker 1: declaration to him for which I was, I think, seeking
Speaker 1: validation and maybe even a compliment. I said, Dad. Once
Speaker 1: we were sat with coffees in the sun, I said, Dad,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm scrapping the entire record. I'm gonna start over.
Speaker 1: And I thought he would put his hand on my
Speaker 1: shoulder and say, like my son, you know, like the
Speaker 1: Kipling poem, you know, he says, what an amateur move.
Speaker 1: He says to me, I said, Dad, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? He says? He says, it's show business man.
Speaker 1: It's not how you feel about the work. It's about
Speaker 1: how you make us feel about the work. Has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with all truistic you know, like that the
Speaker 1: writing is that, yes, you know, like be truthful while
Speaker 1: you're writing, seek, you know, to be stirred by the muses.
Speaker 1: But once you're recording, I mean that isn't that is
Speaker 1: an act of pandering you have You have to go
Speaker 1: the whole hog, he says. You think I mean it
Speaker 1: every night when I'm on my knees singing Hallelujah. You
Speaker 1: think Mick means it every night when he's singing. You know,
Speaker 1: I can't get no, he says, in like, the true
Speaker 1: generosity is to not care whether you do or don't
Speaker 1: mean it, you know. And then I'm thinking, like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, that whole I've been in the studio with
Speaker 1: you now, and I see how many times you have
Speaker 1: trashed and begun again and not accepted and stalled, and
Speaker 1: so wait a minute, you know again, these infuriating, diametrically
Speaker 1: opposed and battling notions. Remember that Michael, publish your parish,
Speaker 1: publish your parish. He said. He just kept on repeating that,
Speaker 1: get off the get off the pot. I'd say, well,
Speaker 1: what about you, dad, You know, like twelve years to
Speaker 1: finish a song. You know, I'd say, oh, yeah, well
Speaker 1: I was getting it right. I think he was telling
Speaker 1: you what he wanted to tell himself. I also think
Speaker 1: that they're is a is it. I'm not much of
Speaker 1: a sports fan, but it's a there's a there's a
Speaker 1: thing that boxers say to each other. They say, there's
Speaker 1: levels to this. You know, just because Ali can do
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you can. Just because Floyd Mayweather can
Speaker 1: do it, doesn't mean you can. And I don't mean
Speaker 1: to suggest that he was as callous and conceded as
Speaker 1: to imply that that as clearly as I'm indicating, but
Speaker 1: I think he was saying, look, when you're writing psalms
Speaker 1: of King David like I am, you know you can
Speaker 1: afford to take your time. I don't think he's saying that, okay,
Speaker 1: I know. I don't think thank you for assuaging my concern. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I think he's saying he's telling you what he needs
Speaker 1: to hear. That's what I think was happening. He was
Speaker 1: giving you his best advice that he was not able
Speaker 1: to take for himself. I don't know, Rick, I don't.
Speaker 1: That doesn't resonate as true, and I'm not I think
Speaker 1: you might be too close. Yeah, it might be too close.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like myself bucking you know, or or
Speaker 1: tangling antlers with you, because that's that's I don't have
Speaker 1: the stature to win it that there's no winning. There's
Speaker 1: no by the way, there's no competition but sharing ideas.
Speaker 1: But I do, But I do believe that that's not true.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. I myself, I don't believe
Speaker 1: in the idea of all things equal. And in fact,
Speaker 1: I believe that you know what, the definition of the
Speaker 1: word miracle is a breach in the law of nature. Yes,
Speaker 1: he was a breach in the law of nature. Yes,
Speaker 1: he can allow himself exception. That's what he was. And
Speaker 1: to go to another sort of analogous for the sisterhood
Speaker 1: of that idea would be the words scarcity. You know,
Speaker 1: the idea that that something is is something's value is
Speaker 1: directly measured by how little of it there is. And
Speaker 1: he was not a prolific man, and unlike Dylan, who
Speaker 1: was you know, who just spat them out. You know,
Speaker 1: he was chiseling at marble, and he would always refer
Speaker 1: to himself as slow, but it was never disparagingly. Yes,
Speaker 1: there was a methodical conscious. There was a notion from
Speaker 1: a young man. If you go back to his journals,
Speaker 1: and which I have, unfortunately you know, or fortunately had
Speaker 1: to do. I'm so buried in all things learned going
Speaker 1: these days. But there was this sense that he had
Speaker 1: this mandate from Geez dash d to go into the darkness,
Speaker 1: and we don't all have that. That would be that
Speaker 1: would be presumptuous and arrogant. Do you do you think
Speaker 1: he included himself in the puppets in the song that
Speaker 1: we just absolutely yes, okay, yes, yes, you're but but
Speaker 1: again there's puppet mountains and there's puppet mole hills, yes, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: we have yes, Okay, yes, yes, I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking that he thought less of himself in any way,
Speaker 1: and I'm not thinking that, and I'm I will tell you,
Speaker 1: I don't think he looked down on your work versus
Speaker 1: his work. I don't believe that. Well, that would be crazy, Rick,
Speaker 1: I don't believe that. I just don't believe that I
Speaker 1: promised that on the drive home. I'll think more about this, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I think for as, I think he clearly knew
Speaker 1: he was great, but he also saw all of the downsides.
Speaker 1: I don't think that he saw anything as perfect. No, so,
Speaker 1: and I'm that's why I'm thinking. I don't think he
Speaker 1: thought about things by rank. I don't think, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, No, I in general I got that
Speaker 1: from it. Yeah, Well, he wasn't in the position of
Speaker 1: he was one of the least judgmental characters I've ever met.
Speaker 1: So for that I agree. But understanding things place and resonance,
Speaker 1: and understanding that some things were whispers and some things
Speaker 1: were seismic tremors. For example, he would say, I'm not
Speaker 1: one of the big guys, but I do understand that
Speaker 1: I have you know, I think he would say, my
Speaker 1: little toe in the door jam of the annals of history. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so this was a sense of modesty, but a
Speaker 1: sense of place. Yes, I think it's realistic. You know,
Speaker 1: he was realistic. But boy, the exception that he was
Speaker 1: that as his contemporary aged out or are aging out
Speaker 1: that their offerings, their little wild bouquets that they're still holding,
Speaker 1: have less and less pertinence and have more and more
Speaker 1: of that sense of like being a nostalgia act, and
Speaker 1: that he as opposed to them, remained so vital. And
Speaker 1: it was I think it was because he was really
Speaker 1: clawing his way up, you know, with his deteriorating, little
Speaker 1: frail body, even clawing his way and really speaking from
Speaker 1: the rank at which he found himself. Yes, you know
Speaker 1: he was. Really. He wasn't trying to say baby, baby, baby.
Speaker 1: He was trying to say, we kill the flame, if
Speaker 1: that's what you want, my lord. You know he was,
Speaker 1: he was really, he wasn't revisiting anything. That's why he
Speaker 1: took offense to some notions that he'd go backwards. You know,
Speaker 1: he was trying to remain vital. Yeah. I don't think
Speaker 1: I ever got to explain it well to him, but
Speaker 1: my version of him going backwards tell me so I
Speaker 1: can tell him later. Okay, had more to do with
Speaker 1: his songwriting changed in a way that became more punchline
Speaker 1: based over time, and his earlier songs didn't have that,
Speaker 1: And I missed the songs without the punchlines and that
Speaker 1: would have been my one request, if to think about
Speaker 1: writing songs that didn't rely on the punchline, because I
Speaker 1: think once he fell into that, I think it made
Speaker 1: it easier to write the songs for him. It was
Speaker 1: a it was an organizing principle that made the having
Speaker 1: that structure was easier to work work towards. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: would refer to it as you would often talk about
Speaker 1: Arthur Miller and how the plays got short and shorter,
Speaker 1: but the impact didn't. And you know how his life
Speaker 1: energy was different and anything that allowed for the juice
Speaker 1: to keep flowing was was more vital than anything. So
Speaker 1: you know, however you got there, you just got to
Speaker 1: keep on getting there. So I do also see the economy.
Speaker 1: But you know, the funny thing is what error are
Speaker 1: you speaking? Of Course, his earlier work had this kind
Speaker 1: of languid, you know, such deep voluptuousness, and then you know,
Speaker 1: by the time even he was doing Hallelujah, that was
Speaker 1: a lot more terse, a lot more economic. And then
Speaker 1: by the time he was doing There's a Crack and everything,
Speaker 1: that's how the light gets and that he had found
Speaker 1: that voice that he remained with to the end. In otherwids.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a forfeiture of poetry, but it was an economy.
Speaker 1: I love your term punchline, because he did look for them,
Speaker 1: I know, but never succumbing to what he would call
Speaker 1: slogan earring. He would he would always want it. He
Speaker 1: would try to raise above, rise above slogans. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: and he would always say to me, you know, like
Speaker 1: I take the inner life really seriously. Yes, And I
Speaker 1: think that's why it resonates so much to us, because
Speaker 1: you know, this man is not slogan earring. He is
Speaker 1: tapping into something. He's mining where you dare not go
Speaker 1: for sure. How many albums did he make I don't gosh,
Speaker 1: I don't know in total, at twelve, thirteen, fourteen. And
Speaker 1: that's interesting too, because if we were to compare him
Speaker 1: to any of his contemporaries, there were fewer, much fewer,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, much much much fewer. Yeah, you know, one
Speaker 1: probably one fifth, yes, yes, yeah. That reminds me of
Speaker 1: the I think it's the Cummings quote. It says every
Speaker 1: artist has an embarrassingly slim cartridge of good work. I
Speaker 1: think he was very aware of that and kind of
Speaker 1: eschewed some of the pitfalls of what my friend reminded
Speaker 1: me here of publisher Parish. You know, he almost did
Speaker 1: perish a few times waiting to publish. But the good
Speaker 1: thing is that he emerged with these diamonds and his
Speaker 1: gems coming up after the break, one more gem from
Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen and his son Adam. We're back with more.
Speaker 1: Rick Ruman's conversation with Adam Cohen. Okay, it happens to
Speaker 1: the heart. Is is the Alma Mata. It's the thing
Speaker 1: he was obsessively working on. If you came over, there
Speaker 1: would be no pads and scraps of paper everywhere, and
Speaker 1: it was the thing he was the most consumed with.
Speaker 1: We didn't get it, he didn't get it on you
Speaker 1: want it Darker, and he kept on working on it.
Speaker 1: And it was one of the first songs, one of
Speaker 1: the first two songs that uh we pulled up when
Speaker 1: we were in my backyard. And it does sort of
Speaker 1: surmise the perch from which he was looking at life,
Speaker 1: the strange modesty and yet captain hood of his own
Speaker 1: life that he was claiming. I guess we could play
Speaker 1: that one. Still incredible, beautiful. I'm so glad you made it.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we did it. I can't believe he's
Speaker 1: he's still speaking to us. Yeah, it's so beautiful. Lenda
Speaker 1: Cohen's new album, Thinks for the Dances out everywhere on
Speaker 1: November twenty seven. And check out a list of some
Speaker 1: of our favorite Lennon Cohen's songs by visiting Broken Record
Speaker 1: podcasts dot com, subscribing to our playlist for this episode,
Speaker 1: and when the album's out, we'll put it up there
Speaker 1: for you too. You can also sign up for a
Speaker 1: behind the scenes newsletter, Why You're There. Broken Record is
Speaker 1: produced with help from Jason Gambrell and Miil Lobell. Our
Speaker 1: theme music is by the great Kenny Beats. Stay tuned
Speaker 1: for next week's episode with Norah Jones. I'm justin Richmond.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.