1 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I first discovered Leonard Cohen, like most people, through 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: a song Hallelujah, a beautiful and complex song with a 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: ton of verses. But I grew to love him after 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: discovering his early albums, full of nylon string guitars and 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: songs much more succinct than Hallelujah. The Leonard never got 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: quite the amount of attention that his peers did, Like 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, he was every bit the 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: poet they are. Cohen died in twenty sixteen, less than 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: a month after the release of his last album. It 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: was a project recorded in his modest duplex in the 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: mid Wiltshire neighborhood of Los Angeles. Leonard made the album 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: with his son, Adam Cohen. It wasn't meant to be 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: his last work, but it felt like a fitting end 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: until this turned up. While morning his father's death, Adam 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: took some of the poetry Lenard had recorded and set 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: it to music, And now, very unexpectedly, we have a 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: brand new album from Leonard co called Thanks for the Dance. 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here. You can 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: on our playlist, which you can find a link to 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: in the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: All right. Enjoyed the episode. Rick Reuben knew Leonard Cohen 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: for about a decade before it is passing. Afterwards, Leonard's 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: son Adam reached out to Rick wanted to tell him 27 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: a story about his father, the one you're about to hear. 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: When's the last time we saw each other? I was 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: trying to remember. It feels like so long, ill go 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: all of it. I was trying to remember. I mean, 31 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: I know the feeling that I was left with in 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: that story that my dad always used to tell about you, 33 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: and you became the brunt of a of almost like 34 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: a punchline. But now the whole thing's dissipated into a 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: general tapestry and feeling of you know, I guess a mix, 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: a cocktail, a blend of maybe inaccuracies and feelings mixed together. 37 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: But I want to try to summon if it's appropriate, Yes, 38 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: the story about you. Hey, tell me the story as 39 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: you remember it. It has something to do with his 40 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: general feeling about himself not being a stallion in the 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: race of show business. And by that I mean he 42 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: would refer to other guys he came up with, whether 43 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: it's Christopherson or Bayez or Janie or Dylan or all 44 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: the cats that are coming up in his era as 45 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: knowing what to do. He would say, these guys know 46 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: what to do. All I've ever known is that a 47 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: black in a page. You would say, that's where you 48 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: have to understand that context before it. Rick Rubin enters 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: into the conversation. So then then the question is two 50 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: guys sitting at a table and some music industry related 51 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: question emerges, and he says, I don't know, Adam. I 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: mean they are like we should ask Rick, you know, 53 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: like Rick Rubin would know this, And so very quickly 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: that morphs into any question that we have ask Rick, 55 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: ask Rick. You know, I come to him with a 56 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: genuine question, Dad, you know, what should I do about 57 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: this if it's music related? And then it turns a 58 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: new punchline. He said, you know, Adam, you know what 59 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: I'm about to say, ask Rick Rubin, And of course 60 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: you know I hadn't met you know, It's so funny. 61 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: I get and as I said, I didn't know any 62 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: of this till you told me this after your dad passed. Yeah, 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: And so I felt like I had to track you 64 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: down on the off chance he was right. You know, 65 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: I have to ask Rick, and I have subsequently asked 66 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: you on many occasions, and you've proven right every time. Wow. 67 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: So thank you pretty good in my pleasure. It's an 68 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: amazing story. It makes me laugh every time to tell 69 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: me about the new your dad's newest project. I know 70 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: it's not incredible, it's so cool. I suppose that the 71 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: most gratifying part, other than the fact that it wasn't 72 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: a humiliating disaster, and the fact that it's resonant and 73 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: that I think it's beautiful and people are responding to 74 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: it so favorably, I think the headline is the person 75 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: after person who hears it. One of the most gratifying 76 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: things that is said of it time and time again 77 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: is that they feel like, oh my god, Leonard Cohen 78 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: is is still here. He's speaking to us still and 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: with this message in tow with this beautiful offering and 80 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: this command of language, this inimitable gift that he's always had, 81 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: still having it. Of course, I could go into detail 82 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: because I have to tell me about the specifics of 83 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the making of it, like how did it how did 84 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: the idea come start? From the beginning, Well, the first 85 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: thing that happened was my old man passed away, and 86 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: I live about seven hundred and fifty meters down the 87 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: same street where you visited. And I'm left with this 88 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: notion that one of the ways in which I can 89 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: visit with him so palpably as opposed to so many 90 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: other people who lose a parent or someone. I've got 91 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: all these recordings and they are the sum of his 92 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: being in many instances. They are this some of what 93 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: he practiced to be in this world, and they are 94 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: literally his words, his voice, and recordings. And at one 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: point I had of desperation and a tiny pinch of courage. 96 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: I dared to open up two sessions in my backyard 97 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: and I just wanted to sit with him. I missed him, 98 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and it was a way of of conversing, of remaining 99 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: in dialogue with the guy. That was the beginning. And 100 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: then something really unexpected and magical happened. A record is 101 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: not a fete complete, you know. Even good songs do 102 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: not result in good recordings. Even in your hands. It 103 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if the artist and the song and the 104 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: producer and the musicians. It is not a guarantee of 105 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: any anything. And so the fact that that a record 106 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: actually emerged, that's finished, and that's resonant, and that's emotional, 107 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: and that's truthful, it's not in my hands. I don't 108 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: have the qualifications to do that. It emerged and it's 109 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: it's out of our control. Yeah, And so I have 110 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: two strikes against me for this record in terms of 111 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: my actual true participation. You know, One is that I 112 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: neither have great and esteemed credentials. And two, this wasn't 113 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: my record. You know, I wasn't trying to make my choices. 114 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: I was trying to at all times because of this 115 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: conversation that I was in, I say, like, Dad, would 116 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: do you like this? Is this what you would do? 117 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: Is this truthful? And so it eliminated this tragic layer 118 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: that we often impose on ourselves of doubt. It was 119 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: I don't have to consult myself. All I have to 120 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: do is consult him. He was very clear about what 121 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: he didn't didn't like. And that's the great advantage that 122 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: I had over people who are like you for example, 123 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: I knew what he hated, of course, you know, you 124 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: know what's interesting. Never thought about this before. But for 125 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: any other artist this would be a more difficult process. 126 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: But because Leonard's music always essentially started with the poetry 127 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,119 Speaker 1: and that was the basis of the greatness of the songs, 128 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: the heavy lifting was already done. So this is the 129 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: best example of being able to make something really truthful 130 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: to him, where the participation that he already did really 131 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: is the key. Yeah, I was thinking that on the 132 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: drive up here. Know, there's a there's a song called 133 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: the Goal, which is it's literally no more than a 134 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: minute long. And his reading, which had no music, it 135 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: was just a reading. His reading sounds like a Thesbian 136 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: from the other side of the world. The command of language, 137 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: the cinematic transport of quality. And then to end, you know, 138 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: by saying, and no one to follow, nothing to teach 139 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: except that the goal falls short of the reach. So beautiful, amazing, 140 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: it's amazing. I wholeheartedly agree. It's so wonderful that that exists, 141 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: and it's so true. What a truthful position that he had. 142 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: I can see him sitting in his little fedor and 143 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: in his suit, staring at his window, returning a neighbor's 144 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: smile with that sense of defeat. But at the same time, 145 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: the word defeat to people has this binary quality. To 146 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: most people, it's measured against winning, for example. But to him, 147 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: it was part of this thesis that he had that 148 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: his whole life was about, which is brokenness, broken hallelujah, 149 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: the crack and everything, the whole notion that defeat and 150 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: imperfection and brokenness was the fabric of the experience. And 151 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: then instead of just you know, having a plaintiff assertion 152 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: that the real generosity was to write about it in 153 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: a way that you hadn't considered with generosity, with voluptuousness, 154 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: with inventiveness, and then you know, you could, on top 155 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: of it said, it's to a melody, you know, like 156 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: a like what nicotine is in a cigarette, Like it's 157 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: a nicotine delivery system. He was giving you, like a 158 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: transcendent delivery system. That's what he was trying to do. 159 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: Every time he would hate that I said that, But 160 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: that's what I think he was trying to do. What 161 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: was it like growing up with him, I'm trying to 162 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: spend with him in through childhood. Yeah, I don't know 163 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: that that's a question that I can answer in a 164 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: complete manner, you know. I mean the immediate answer is 165 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, because I've only had that, so I 166 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: have nothing else to measure it against. That it was 167 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: incredible now that he's gone, and that I consult him 168 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: more as a man than a parent, and I see 169 00:11:54,080 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: him as a as a lifetime of choices, fantastic, altruistic, amazing, bizarre, eccentric, 170 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: devoted religious seeker like choices, I find him ever more remarkable. 171 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: And the fact that he was able to, you know, 172 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: remain in his children's lives despite it not really being 173 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: an appetite of his at the beginning. But for me, 174 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: there was this torture of what he called the family business. 175 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: Now he could call it the family business, and he 176 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: would say all the Cohen boys and the family business, 177 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: and you know, but if I dared say the family business, 178 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, he would say, like, what do you mean 179 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: family business? You know, you're you know. It was it 180 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: was this endless geyser of support and understanding. I mean, 181 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: he would lean over my he would lean over my 182 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: notebook and give me suggestions. He would, you know, he 183 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: would say, this is what you got to do. You know, 184 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: although you gotta ask Rick because I don't know. But 185 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: and at the same time, you know, I remember I 186 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: when in Instagram came around and I my handle was 187 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: his commander Cohen and he found out about it. So 188 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: you're stealing my identity, I said, Dad, what are you 189 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: talking about? You know, like you were saying it laughingly? 190 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: That's the thing. No, you know, he was. He was like, 191 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: for example, there wasn't there was an article in which, 192 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, I had said like kind of something like, look, 193 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: there's no one like Leonard Cohen, but I'm like a 194 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: certainly on the mainland, but I'm the closest thing to it, 195 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: if you know, we're talking about way off shore, distant 196 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: little you know, distant little eyelets. And he said, what 197 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: are you talking about? Your the closest thing to Leonard Cohen? 198 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: You know, this is the kind of I don't know. 199 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: I don't know whether he was as irritated as the 200 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: tone indicated, but again it was also accompanied by this, 201 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, Dad, I quit, I don't want to be 202 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: your producer. This is ridiculous, said Dad. He says, Adam, 203 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: where are you going? I can't do this without you, 204 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: you know. So there was this wonderful and constant contradiction. 205 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: You know, like I referred to his music one time 206 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: in a magazine as mytho romantic, and I thought, oh 207 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: my god, this is so perfect. It really is mytho romantic. 208 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the idea that that woman is 209 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: God and God is woman, and and and you know, 210 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: the be the the cathedral that his words are echoing 211 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: in of, and that he built stone by stone, word 212 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: by word. And he says, he says, remind me to 213 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: reduce your uh to a couple of words, kid, you know, 214 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: and I'm like, Dad, what are you talking about it? 215 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, mytho romantic. It's good. And then you know, 216 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: two Sabbath dinners later, he's like my son who coined 217 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: the term mytho romantic, putting his arm around me. This 218 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: is this is crazy and exactly. And of course none 219 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: of it was malicious, and I didn't. I never felt 220 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: like it was in an episode of succession where I 221 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: was gonna, you know, like he was gonna try to 222 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: kill me. But given the modesty, it goes back to 223 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: your original question, which was, like, what was it like 224 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: living with him? He was so modest, he was so 225 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: down on earth, I mean, this is a guy who 226 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: lived in a an apartment and I drove a nineteen 227 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: eighty four Nissan Pathfinder whose battery need to be jumped 228 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: every morning, you know. I mean, yes, he did go 229 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: through a five thousand dollar can of caviar, you know, 230 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: and in the same afternoon, and he did have a 231 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: propensity for Hebrew national kosher salami. But it was this 232 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: elegant old world man who I think the reason I 233 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: stumbled in answering you earlier was because it provoked such 234 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: a feeling. And the feeling is this, he had so 235 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: many distinguishing characteristics that I wished I could find in 236 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: myself that it was never oppressive, but it was unachievable, 237 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: unachievable for most anybody, for sure. But he liked you, though, 238 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: and often said things of that nature about you. To 239 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: me incredible, Yeah, but you know what I mean. I mean, 240 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about a kind of larger than lifeness. And 241 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: at the same time, he was this little jew who 242 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: wrote the Bible, you know. Yeah, can you talk a 243 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: little bit about his spirituality? Not in a way he 244 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: would approve of as you saw it your perspective. I 245 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: think he was a seeker. I think he just had 246 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: an appetite. You know, if I was to two cent 247 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: psychoanalyze him, i'd i'd say, a guy who loses his 248 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: father at the age of nine years old is always 249 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: looking for something, and in this case it was the 250 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: archetypal man, the source of strength and wisdom. And although 251 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: he found pillars of that strength and wisdom within certain 252 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: segments of Judaism, he also found it in Christianity and 253 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: Catherine Tata and in several masters that he followed along 254 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: the way, and in wine, and in women, and in 255 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: song and in listen. He met my mother while he 256 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: was in scientology for a brief moment with el Ron Hubbard, 257 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean, anything, anything goes if it's got a little 258 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: bit of a buzz speed, absinthe, medical marijuana, whatever. Yeah. 259 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: I remember him always offering absinthe whenever I would see him. Yeah, 260 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 1: he liked I Yeah, he loved it and didn't have 261 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: to be with a substance. He just loved to let 262 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: go of that fascining, that oppressive fascinating that we that 263 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: we do almost involuntarily to the center of ourselves, which 264 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: is not even a very pleasant place to be. Remember 265 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: asking him if he if he read any of the 266 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: newer poets, and he said that he only reads spiritual texts. Now, 267 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: he doesn't look at anything. He's not interested in anything 268 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: beyond spiritual texts. That was interesting. Yeah, I didn't follow 269 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: too closely what he was reading other than what he 270 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: would tell me, and there was a I think he's again, 271 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: these are all admissions that I'm having trouble making, because 272 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, I sort of feel like he would say, 273 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: Jesus Adam, you're incorrigible. I mean, I don't demystify me. 274 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: I've spent my whole life putting veils up. But I 275 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: think he had forfeited reading for the irresistible ease of 276 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: online publications of lectures online. And I know that he 277 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: was following some pretty wacky folks, you know, from from 278 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: rabbis and seeks to Hindu gurus, and you know, he 279 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: was deep, deep into listening to people speaking. Yeah, he 280 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: invited me to see Rabbi Findley with him several times. 281 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: I've still have not yet done it. Still, let's go, 282 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: let's go, let's go one of these days. He's He's 283 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: a beautiful, robust, interesting, charismatic character. Ex marine from Irish 284 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: descent who became incredibly versed and and all things Jewish, 285 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: but with a with a really modern and moderate bent. 286 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: Very cool that after the break will debut a song 287 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: from Lennon Cohen's new album, Thanks for the Dance. We're 288 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: back with Adam Cohen. Should we talk a little bit 289 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: about the the album before this one, the last one 290 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: he was present for. Well, that was beautiful for me, 291 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 1: and not just because the record turned out beautifully and 292 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: all that my father passed away only three weeks after 293 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: it came out. He did get to, you know, when 294 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: he played it for you came over to the house, 295 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: or when he played it for people whose opinion he 296 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: was seeking, or with whom he just wanted to share 297 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: the music, and then eventually the world that that a 298 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: collect you know, this is where it's He was such 299 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: an unset, intimental guy that I almost feel like I'm trespassing. 300 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: But for me, it was sentimental to be summoned to 301 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: work with my father in whose footsteps I tried with 302 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: clumsiness to follow, to go from basically glorified coffee boy, 303 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, in the basement of the building, to ending 304 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: up in the penthouse making boardroom decisions with the boss 305 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: except the Boss was in a medical chair, you know, 306 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: in his living room in mid Wilshire. To to actually 307 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: having this resonant music, to to wrestling with the Master 308 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: and and not getting creamed. And in fact, you know, 309 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: when another thing that when you came up in conversation, 310 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, and and and pardon me for the oversimplified, 311 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: but when when he would say, you know, Rick or 312 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: or Don Was or Dan Lan, they want they want 313 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: me to go back, They want me to they want 314 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: me to literally regress to making you know, an old 315 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen album with just nylon string guitars and stuff like. 316 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, you know, like I'm 317 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: not a museum piece. I'm not even particularly nostalgic. But 318 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: of course I believe that you were right, and and 319 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: that that desire for Leonard Cohen to tickle that and 320 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: evoke that sense that we have in our mind's eye 321 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: of what Leonard Cohen is not just not just spiritually, 322 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: not just lyrically, but also sonically in terms of the 323 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: architecture that accompanies him was such a strong desire. And 324 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: when he finally was weak enough to relent and allow 325 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: that just for a second, especially with this his son 326 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: to have that nylon string guitar come back to quiet 327 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: the background vocals and excavate enough space for him in 328 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: the verses so that the narratorship was unchallenged and they 329 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: could go back to that other union that he had created, 330 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: which is at Yin and Yang, where he has this 331 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: masculine baritone narrator narratorship and then there's this incredible generous 332 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: complicitness from the female backgrounds. So there's this union and 333 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: this is an architecture that he helped excavate, so to 334 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: restore that. But at the end of his life, with 335 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: that gravity, with that somberness, with that sharpness, with that 336 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: courage to go into the darkness and come back with 337 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: a little, a little parcel of truth that he had, 338 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: it was incredibly outifying, you know, and touching for me. 339 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: And you mentioned his medical chair. When I came to 340 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: visit him, he literally looked like a king in the throne. 341 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. He was so elegantly dressed as always, yes, 342 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: but so beautiful and sitting in this grand chair in 343 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: this small space. Yeah, it really took my breath away. 344 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: Every time I visited him, it was always, it was 345 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: always thrilling for me, but maybe even more so than 346 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 1: and none of us. I mean, I certainly didn't know 347 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: that he was going anytime soon, because we were already 348 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: talking about what he was going to do next. It's 349 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: like he already told me he was excited. He was 350 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: writing for the next album, which is which is now happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, 351 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: he was living you know. I often said to my 352 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: friend here Michael again mixed and recorded both that record 353 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: and this one. You know, I said, like, you know, 354 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: he's staying alive for this. This is the only thing 355 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: he's living for. And often, unfortunately that statement was made, 356 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: or that declaration was was uttered when we were going nowhere, 357 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: and it just felt like he was stalling. And it 358 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: was like, Dad, we get it. When you finished this record, 359 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna let go, But only when you 360 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: finished the work. He was a pit bull at the 361 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: sleeve of this mission, whether it was blackening pages or 362 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: finishing a lyric and then refinishing it, you know. But 363 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: it was this indelible and very clear sense that he 364 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: was living for the work. That's all he was living, 365 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: and that was that was why when he played me 366 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: the new finished work, The first thing I said was, so, 367 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: what's the next song going to be? Like? What the 368 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: you know, have you started on the next album? Yet 369 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: knowing that he needed that, Yeah, and knowing that we 370 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: want to hear that it's good for everybody. Did he 371 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: did he do that thing that he did he sometimes 372 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: we do almost like a magician with a card trick. 373 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: Did he dispense on you lyrics that he was working on? Yeah? 374 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: Wasn't that just magical? Yeah? I mean one of the 375 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: things I missed the most is, you know, dropping by 376 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 1: and having him without a tell a prompter. I mean, 377 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about a man who is literally swimming in 378 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: Tom's and Tom's and Tom's of not just words, but 379 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: like heavy con dentse and delicious language, and for him 380 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: to pull him out, you know, and it doesn't matter 381 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: whether it's pulling out Blake or Shakespeare or his own work, 382 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the lucidity and the sharpness right to the end. But 383 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: then to hear the deliciousness of a concoction that he was, 384 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: you know, in the in the throes of you know, 385 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: wasn't that it? Isn't that just a delicious number? Believably 386 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: unbelievably thrilling and I'm sure over the years there were 387 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: many that you got to hear that maybe never came 388 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: to Well, you know, it's funny you say that, because 389 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: on this record I had to beg him. I said, Dad, 390 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: you know that song Puppets, just just speak it. I 391 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: know you, I've known you are not co signing. You 392 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: don't believe that there's music that exists for this, or 393 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: Night of Santiago, or there's several others where I said, 394 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: just just read it, read it to a to a metronome. Yes, 395 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: we'll figure that out later, but don't not speak this 396 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: into a microphone. Yes, And that's how delicious some of 397 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: those moments were. You know, Yeah, there's some unfortunately I 398 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: didn't get. In fact, the last song on this album, 399 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: it's called Listen to the Hummingbird. And we were done 400 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: with a record and Michael and I were in Berlin 401 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: at a festival called People Festival, which is organized by 402 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: justin Vernon, Bonniver and the Desners from the National and 403 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: Bonnie Beer's music was We were sharing a studio and 404 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: they were We had a shared wall and all of 405 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: these incredible moving evocketive sonics were coming through the wall 406 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: and instead of hating him and resenting him for interrupting 407 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: what would otherwise have been our session. We were inspired 408 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: and and we said our so oh my goodness. The 409 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: very last time this man spoke in public, he impromptu 410 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: did what we're talking about. He said, hey, do you 411 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: want to hear something I'm working on? And he read 412 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: into a fifty eight in a halligen lit conference room 413 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: a press event, he read out loud this poem, and 414 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: we remember it. Contacted, Sony said, is there any way 415 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: you could locate that one moment in that Prince conference, 416 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: turn it into a wave file, send it to us, 417 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: and with this stuff coming through the shared wall, we 418 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: compose this, uh, this track. Yeah, it's such a pleasure 419 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: hearing him speak. It was delicious. Yeah, Yeah, I miss it, 420 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: I really, I really miss it. You know. On the 421 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: last the last album was that recorded with his band. 422 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: Nothing was recorded with his band. No with the sort 423 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: of sonic defining characteristic of the last record. Not this 424 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: new one was a men's choir that's also on this 425 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: on this album. In fact, on this album there's a 426 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: song called Puppets, where it boldly starts with German puppets, 427 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: burnt the Jews, Jewish puppets did not choose. I mean, 428 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: this is an arresting and bold beginning to any lyric 429 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: that arguably should maybe not even be in a song. 430 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: But that men's choir, the Jewish men's choir, and this 431 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: Berlin based German choir are both on the song, and 432 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: they're both singing, let's listen to that. That's pretty it's 433 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: a pretty wacky one. Okay. He seems to be saying, 434 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: we're all puppets, Yes, sir. Yeah. He was studying with 435 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: this guy called Balsakar in India where he would he 436 00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: would go after Roshi, his zen teacher, passed away, and 437 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: the thesis of Balsakar, which he was really taken by 438 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: at the end and became his sort of central spiritual backbone, 439 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: was there is no doer. There is no doer whatsoever. 440 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: It's a kind of fatalistic, but without the oppressiveness of 441 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: the word fatalist, This idea that it's all written by 442 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: some program. So puppets for sure, but even but even 443 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: smaller than puppets. You know, he would often say, you 444 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: can read every word on the page, you just can't 445 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: change any of them in the script of your life. 446 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: And also speaks to the resignment in the lyric that 447 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: you quoted earlier of waving to the neighbor, and yeah, 448 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: the resignation of I sit in my chair, I look 449 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: at the street. The neighbor returns my smile of defeat. 450 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: I move with the leaves, I shine with the chrome. 451 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm almost alive. I'm almost at home. Yeah. And also 452 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: it relates to the we were talking about in the 453 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: in the in the making of art process, the fact 454 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: that it's out of our control. It all, it's it's all, 455 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: it's all one thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Again, 456 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: I go back to being infuriated by his contradictions. I 457 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: just have another another story again. You know. I finished 458 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 1: a record at one point, and I met him at 459 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: Starbucks on will Sharon Lebrea, and I had this big 460 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: declaration to him for which I was, I think, seeking 461 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: validation and maybe even a compliment. I said, Dad. Once 462 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: we were sat with coffees in the sun, I said, Dad, 463 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm scrapping the entire record. I'm gonna start over. 464 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: And I thought he would put his hand on my 465 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: shoulder and say, like my son, you know, like the 466 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: Kipling poem, you know, he says, what an amateur move. 467 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: He says to me, I said, Dad, what are you 468 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: talking about? He says? He says, it's show business man. 469 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: It's not how you feel about the work. It's about 470 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 1: how you make us feel about the work. Has nothing 471 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: to do with all truistic you know, like that the 472 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: writing is that, yes, you know, like be truthful while 473 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: you're writing, seek, you know, to be stirred by the muses. 474 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: But once you're recording, I mean that isn't that is 475 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: an act of pandering you have You have to go 476 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: the whole hog, he says. You think I mean it 477 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: every night when I'm on my knees singing Hallelujah. You 478 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: think Mick means it every night when he's singing. You know, 479 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: I can't get no, he says, in like, the true 480 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: generosity is to not care whether you do or don't 481 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: mean it, you know. And then I'm thinking, like, wait 482 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: a minute, that whole I've been in the studio with 483 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: you now, and I see how many times you have 484 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: trashed and begun again and not accepted and stalled, and 485 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: so wait a minute, you know again, these infuriating, diametrically 486 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: opposed and battling notions. Remember that Michael, publish your parish, 487 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: publish your parish. He said. He just kept on repeating that, 488 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: get off the get off the pot. I'd say, well, 489 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: what about you, dad, You know, like twelve years to 490 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: finish a song. You know, I'd say, oh, yeah, well 491 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: I was getting it right. I think he was telling 492 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: you what he wanted to tell himself. I also think 493 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: that they're is a is it. I'm not much of 494 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: a sports fan, but it's a there's a there's a 495 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: thing that boxers say to each other. They say, there's 496 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: levels to this. You know, just because Ali can do 497 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you can. Just because Floyd Mayweather can 498 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: do it, doesn't mean you can. And I don't mean 499 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: to suggest that he was as callous and conceded as 500 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: to imply that that as clearly as I'm indicating, but 501 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: I think he was saying, look, when you're writing psalms 502 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: of King David like I am, you know you can 503 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: afford to take your time. I don't think he's saying that, okay, 504 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: I know. I don't think thank you for assuaging my concern. No, no, no, 505 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: I think he's saying he's telling you what he needs 506 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: to hear. That's what I think was happening. He was 507 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: giving you his best advice that he was not able 508 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: to take for himself. I don't know, Rick, I don't. 509 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: That doesn't resonate as true, and I'm not I think 510 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: you might be too close. Yeah, it might be too close. 511 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: I don't feel like myself bucking you know, or or 512 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: tangling antlers with you, because that's that's I don't have 513 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: the stature to win it that there's no winning. There's 514 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: no by the way, there's no competition but sharing ideas. 515 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: But I do, But I do believe that that's not true. 516 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. I myself, I don't believe 517 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: in the idea of all things equal. And in fact, 518 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: I believe that you know what, the definition of the 519 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: word miracle is a breach in the law of nature. Yes, 520 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: he was a breach in the law of nature. Yes, 521 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: he can allow himself exception. That's what he was. And 522 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: to go to another sort of analogous for the sisterhood 523 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: of that idea would be the words scarcity. You know, 524 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: the idea that that something is is something's value is 525 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 1: directly measured by how little of it there is. And 526 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: he was not a prolific man, and unlike Dylan, who 527 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: was you know, who just spat them out. You know, 528 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: he was chiseling at marble, and he would always refer 529 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: to himself as slow, but it was never disparagingly. Yes, 530 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: there was a methodical conscious. There was a notion from 531 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: a young man. If you go back to his journals, 532 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: and which I have, unfortunately you know, or fortunately had 533 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,479 Speaker 1: to do. I'm so buried in all things learned going 534 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,959 Speaker 1: these days. But there was this sense that he had 535 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: this mandate from Geez dash d to go into the darkness, 536 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: and we don't all have that. That would be that 537 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: would be presumptuous and arrogant. Do you do you think 538 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: he included himself in the puppets in the song that 539 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: we just absolutely yes, okay, yes, yes, you're but but 540 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: again there's puppet mountains and there's puppet mole hills, yes, okay, okay, 541 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: we have yes, Okay, yes, yes, I'm not I'm not 542 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: thinking that he thought less of himself in any way, 543 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: and I'm not thinking that, and I'm I will tell you, 544 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: I don't think he looked down on your work versus 545 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: his work. I don't believe that. Well, that would be crazy, Rick, 546 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: I don't believe that. I just don't believe that I 547 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: promised that on the drive home. I'll think more about this, Yeah, 548 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: because I think for as, I think he clearly knew 549 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: he was great, but he also saw all of the downsides. 550 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: I don't think that he saw anything as perfect. No, so, 551 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 1: and I'm that's why I'm thinking. I don't think he 552 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: thought about things by rank. I don't think, but I 553 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, No, I in general I got that 554 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: from it. Yeah, Well, he wasn't in the position of 555 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: he was one of the least judgmental characters I've ever met. 556 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: So for that I agree. But understanding things place and resonance, 557 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: and understanding that some things were whispers and some things 558 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: were seismic tremors. For example, he would say, I'm not 559 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: one of the big guys, but I do understand that 560 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: I have you know, I think he would say, my 561 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 1: little toe in the door jam of the annals of history. Yes, 562 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: and so this was a sense of modesty, but a 563 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: sense of place. Yes, I think it's realistic. You know, 564 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: he was realistic. But boy, the exception that he was 565 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: that as his contemporary aged out or are aging out 566 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: that their offerings, their little wild bouquets that they're still holding, 567 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: have less and less pertinence and have more and more 568 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: of that sense of like being a nostalgia act, and 569 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: that he as opposed to them, remained so vital. And 570 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: it was I think it was because he was really 571 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: clawing his way up, you know, with his deteriorating, little 572 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: frail body, even clawing his way and really speaking from 573 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: the rank at which he found himself. Yes, you know 574 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: he was. Really. He wasn't trying to say baby, baby, baby. 575 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: He was trying to say, we kill the flame, if 576 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: that's what you want, my lord. You know he was, 577 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: he was really, he wasn't revisiting anything. That's why he 578 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: took offense to some notions that he'd go backwards. You know, 579 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: he was trying to remain vital. Yeah. I don't think 580 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: I ever got to explain it well to him, but 581 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: my version of him going backwards tell me so I 582 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: can tell him later. Okay, had more to do with 583 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,919 Speaker 1: his songwriting changed in a way that became more punchline 584 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: based over time, and his earlier songs didn't have that, 585 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: And I missed the songs without the punchlines and that 586 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: would have been my one request, if to think about 587 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: writing songs that didn't rely on the punchline, because I 588 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: think once he fell into that, I think it made 589 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: it easier to write the songs for him. It was 590 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: a it was an organizing principle that made the having 591 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: that structure was easier to work work towards. Yeah, he 592 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: would refer to it as you would often talk about 593 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: Arthur Miller and how the plays got short and shorter, 594 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: but the impact didn't. And you know how his life 595 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 1: energy was different and anything that allowed for the juice 596 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: to keep flowing was was more vital than anything. So 597 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, however you got there, you just got to 598 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: keep on getting there. So I do also see the economy. 599 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: But you know, the funny thing is what error are 600 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 1: you speaking? Of Course, his earlier work had this kind 601 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: of languid, you know, such deep voluptuousness, and then you know, 602 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: by the time even he was doing Hallelujah, that was 603 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: a lot more terse, a lot more economic. And then 604 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: by the time he was doing There's a Crack and everything, 605 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: that's how the light gets and that he had found 606 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: that voice that he remained with to the end. In otherwids. 607 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't a forfeiture of poetry, but it was an economy. 608 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: I love your term punchline, because he did look for them, 609 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: I know, but never succumbing to what he would call 610 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: slogan earring. He would he would always want it. He 611 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: would try to raise above, rise above slogans. Yes, you know, 612 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: and he would always say to me, you know, like 613 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: I take the inner life really seriously. Yes, And I 614 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: think that's why it resonates so much to us, because 615 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: you know, this man is not slogan earring. He is 616 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: tapping into something. He's mining where you dare not go 617 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: for sure. How many albums did he make I don't gosh, 618 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 1: I don't know in total, at twelve, thirteen, fourteen. And 619 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: that's interesting too, because if we were to compare him 620 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: to any of his contemporaries, there were fewer, much fewer, 621 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,839 Speaker 1: oh yeah, much much much fewer. Yeah, you know, one 622 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: probably one fifth, yes, yes, yeah. That reminds me of 623 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: the I think it's the Cummings quote. It says every 624 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: artist has an embarrassingly slim cartridge of good work. I 625 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: think he was very aware of that and kind of 626 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,320 Speaker 1: eschewed some of the pitfalls of what my friend reminded 627 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: me here of publisher Parish. You know, he almost did 628 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: perish a few times waiting to publish. But the good 629 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: thing is that he emerged with these diamonds and his 630 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: gems coming up after the break, one more gem from 631 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen and his son Adam. We're back with more. 632 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: Rick Ruman's conversation with Adam Cohen. Okay, it happens to 633 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: the heart. Is is the Alma Mata. It's the thing 634 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: he was obsessively working on. If you came over, there 635 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: would be no pads and scraps of paper everywhere, and 636 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: it was the thing he was the most consumed with. 637 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: We didn't get it, he didn't get it on you 638 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: want it Darker, and he kept on working on it. 639 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: And it was one of the first songs, one of 640 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: the first two songs that uh we pulled up when 641 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: we were in my backyard. And it does sort of 642 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: surmise the perch from which he was looking at life, 643 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: the strange modesty and yet captain hood of his own 644 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: life that he was claiming. I guess we could play 645 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: that one. Still incredible, beautiful. I'm so glad you made it. 646 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm so glad we did it. I can't believe he's 647 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 1: he's still speaking to us. Yeah, it's so beautiful. Lenda 648 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: Cohen's new album, Thinks for the Dances out everywhere on 649 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: November twenty seven. And check out a list of some 650 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: of our favorite Lennon Cohen's songs by visiting Broken Record 651 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 1: podcasts dot com, subscribing to our playlist for this episode, 652 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: and when the album's out, we'll put it up there 653 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: for you too. You can also sign up for a 654 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: behind the scenes newsletter, Why You're There. Broken Record is 655 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: produced with help from Jason Gambrell and Miil Lobell. Our 656 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: theme music is by the great Kenny Beats. Stay tuned 657 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: for next week's episode with Norah Jones. I'm justin Richmond. 658 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.