1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Talking Politics. I'm your host, Si Cup. What 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: a wild week it's been. I mean I don't remember 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: a week that hasn't been wild, but this one's been 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: particularly wild. 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: Let's go through it. 6 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: We started off on Easter Sunday with President Trump posting 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: the following profane message on. 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: His truth social for all the world to see. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: Tuesday will be power plant Day and bridge Day, all 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: wrapped up in one. 11 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: In Iran. 12 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: There will be nothing like it. Open the fucking straight, 13 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. 14 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: Just watch Praise be to Allah. 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: That's a real That's a real thing that the President 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: of the United States posted on his social media. Now, 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: there's so much in that post that's alarming, obviously, but 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: promising to commit war crimes, you know, isn't something that 19 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: presidents usually just come out and say before they do them. Well, 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: if that wasn't bad enough, on Monday, he threatened to 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: run again, sounding very much like a cross between a 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: Sith lord and Andrew dice Clay. He wrote, a whole 23 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: I don't want that to happen, but it probably will. 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: However, now that we have complete and total regime change 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: where different, smarter and less radicalized minds prevail, maybe something 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: revolutionarily wonderful can happen. 28 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: Who knows what the fuck? 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: He gave it Ron an eight pm deadline on Tuesday 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: night to open the straight or else, and then about 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: two hours before that deadline, Trump announces he's reached a 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: quote double sided ceasefire with Iran, which I guess is 33 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: his way of saying both parties will adhere to it, which, yep, 34 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: that's understood. That's what a ceasefire is, two parties agreeing 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: to stop shooting for a time being. But like whenever 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: he talks about war, it's always it always sounds like 37 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: he just discovered a new war or a new word 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: or a new concept, Like someone just told him there's 39 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: this thing called a ceasefire and we can ask for one, 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, do both. 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 2: Sides agree to it? So it's like double sided cool. 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: Yes, a double sided seasfire anyway, With plans to wipe 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: out an entire civilization on hold for now, Trump said 44 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: he's agreed to suspend the bombing in attacks on Iran 45 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: for a period of two weeks. 46 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: He wrote the. 47 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: Reason for doing so is that we have already met 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: and exceeded all military objectives and are very far along 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: with a definitive agreement concerning long term peace with Iran 50 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: and peace in the Middle East. This isn't relevant, but 51 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: I'd like you to know that Trump capitalized the first 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: letter of the words agreement and long term for no 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: apparent reason. 54 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: I just find that amusing. 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: So with peace and victory declared, I guess we can 56 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: all breathe a huge sigh of relief and move on 57 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: with our lives, knowing that this excursion was a huge success. 58 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: The world's a safer place. America got what it wanted. 59 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: Right well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: but not exactly. The so called double sided ceasefire that 61 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: Trump bought into so just a bluff by Iran. 62 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 2: He bought into it. 63 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: It lasted mere hours, Iran's Levon oil refinery was hit, 64 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: and a word on whether that was Israel or US, 65 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: of course, just silence. Iran has continued to strike Gulf 66 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: Arab states including Kuwait, Bahrain, Uae, Israel is intensified strikes 67 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: and Lebanon, with Israel and JD Vans both saying Lebanon 68 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: and Hezbala weren't. 69 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: Included in the ceasefire. 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: Our supposed Pakistani mediator disagrees with that. 71 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: It's such a mess and we don't even know who 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: to believe. 73 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: Traffic in the Strait remained negligible, with reports that Iran 74 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: briefly opened the Strait of Hormuz as directed by President Trump, 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: and then closed it in response to Israeli strikes. Oil 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: and gas prices have come down, but still remain significantly 77 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: higher than they were before the war. We've retrieved none, 78 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: none of the one thousand pounds of enriched uranium that 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: was supposedly obliterated by US in our strikes last year. 80 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: It's still under twenty feet of rubble waiting, I guess 81 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: for Iranians to dig it up and then start, you know, 82 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: enriching it again. 83 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: There's been no regime change. 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: The same guys are running it today that we're running 85 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: it a month ago. So, in other words, other than 86 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: degrading Iran's military somewhat, we've accomplished nothing, well, nothing good anyway. 87 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: Here's what we have accomplished. Global energy prices are up, 88 00:04:58,560 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: our allies are rattled. 89 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: The Gulf States are. 90 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: Being bombed, Iran sees no point in taking Trump seriously 91 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: or doing what he says, because they don't respect him 92 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: at all. And the president of the United States has 93 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: already committed a war crime just by threatening to commit 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: a war crime. 95 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 2: So I'm sure you're asking the same question that I am. 96 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: What are Republicans doing in response to Trump's illegal and 97 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: ill advised war. What are they doing about his messing 98 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: with the markets, his threats to leave NATO, his threats 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: to commit war crimes, his failure to get anything meaningful 100 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: out of a war that's already seen US casualties. What 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: are they doing about his decision to ignore the issues 102 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: that matter most to voters, like lowering inflation and the 103 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: cost of goods. What are you doing about his obvious 104 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: signs of cognitive failure. I'm so glad you asked nothing. Nothing, 105 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: not a thing. They're not doing one thing about it. 106 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: Nothing. 107 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: Of the fifty three Republicans currently in the Senate and 108 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: the two hundred and nineteen Republicans currently in the House, 109 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: guess how many have come out to condemn Trump's threat 110 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: to end to civilization? Four four, that's it, four Republicans 111 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: in all of Congress. 112 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: Both houses had. 113 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: The courage to say what should be obvious and easy, 114 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: which is that the president of the United States shouldn't 115 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 1: be threatening to end to civilization. 116 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: There are more obvious and easy. 117 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: Things to say, like the President of the United States 118 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to get us out of a war 119 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: that he started. And President of the United States is 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: an incompetent fool, and the President of the United States 121 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: went to war to distract us from this terrible economy, 122 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: and the Epstein files. You could also say all of 123 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: those things very easily because they're obvious. 124 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: But no, they're totally silent. 125 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: Goose stepping along as Trump self destructs and tries to 126 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: take America down with him. What profiles encourage from this crowd, Right, 127 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: the guy is a lame duck, Like, how hard would 128 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: it be to say, it's time to take our country back, 129 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: it's time to do our jobs again, it's time to 130 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: reign in this obviously compromised president who's threatening nuclear war. 131 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: Shouldn't be hard and yet nothing silence, cowardice. 132 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: No Democrats for their part, well, they're weighing their options 133 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: and being in the minority, none. 134 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: Are particularly good or feasible. 135 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: Talking about impeachment hearings, and that would be a purely 136 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: political exercise, and. 137 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: Trust me, one that Maga is dying for. 138 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: They'd love to be back on defense, where they and 139 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Trump can play poor put upon victims again. They would 140 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: love the distraction and time suck that impeachment would create. 141 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: They'd love the news media to focus on something other 142 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: than Trump's abject failures. They are hoping for impeachment Democrats 143 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: should be wary of that. What about the twenty fifth 144 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: Amendment that allows for the involuntary removal of a president 145 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: during his term sort of And we're going to get 146 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: into the details of that with my next guest after 147 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: the break. But twenty fifth Amendment is tough too, because 148 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: the process requires the vice president and a majority of 149 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: the cabinet to declare the president unfit, and then Congress 150 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: needs to confirm the removal with two thirds of a 151 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: vote if the president disputes it. Now, considering jd. Vance 152 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: has abandoned everything he once stood for and I mean everything, 153 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: just to lick Trump's boots, I doubt we're going to 154 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: get jd Vance to turn on the president. And considering 155 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: Trump's acting ag Todd Blanche said that he'd thank the 156 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: President and tell him I love you, sir. If he 157 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: were fired. I don't think you're going to get this 158 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: cabinet to turn on him either. So what can the 159 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: legislative branch do? 160 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: Well. 161 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: It isn't as sexy as impeachment or the twenty fifth Amendment, 162 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: but it's something if Republicans suddenly to wake up to 163 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: their sworn oaths and duties as lawmakers. First, they should 164 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: vote down Trump's ask for two hundred billion dollars in 165 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: supplemental appropriations to fund continued war operations. They should put 166 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: conditions on future funding, like no boots on the ground 167 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: or nuclear threats, whatever they deem necessary. They should invoke 168 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: the War Powers Resolution and for so withdrawal of troops 169 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 1: if we get to that point, and they can and 170 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: should pass new laws restricting the first use of nuclear 171 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: weapons without a congressional mandate. They could also hold people 172 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: like Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth accountable with public hearings 173 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: to find out once and for all, and on the record, 174 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: what our mission is in Iran, what was our reason 175 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: for going in? Like get on the record, because we've 176 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: hat Telsea Gabbert d and I on the record saying 177 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: there was no intel of an. 178 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: Imminent threat from Iran. That's on the she's under oath. 179 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: Now, either you believe her, which means you have to 180 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: believe that Trump's justification for this war was a lie, 181 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: or you believe she is lying and therefore hiding intel 182 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: from us. Neither is a good scenario. Again, these things 183 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: aren't sexy, but this is what we've got, and I 184 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: think this is where we are. The good news is 185 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: if there is any that it's a Trump and his 186 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: war are so unpopular they're dragging Republicans down with them, 187 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: which will make mid terms quite the reckoning. And that's 188 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: where you come in. You just got to vote. 189 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: You just got to vote, like this might be. I 190 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: know we say this, I know I say this. 191 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: I have been guilty of saying these are the most 192 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: important mid terms of your lifetime. 193 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: I think I've said that before. But like we're on 194 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: the brink of nuclear war. 195 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: You guys like these are the most important midterms of 196 00:10:58,600 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: your lifetime. 197 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: I don't know how the stakes could be any higher. 198 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: As President's out of control, we Republicans in Congress are 199 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: not being the check on him that they are supposed 200 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: to be. We need everyone to go out and vote. 201 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: Midterms are going to be bad, and if Republicans were smart, 202 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: they'd start speaking up right about now about. 203 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: It saving themselves, saving their their. 204 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: Majority or what's left of it come midterms. Okay, when 205 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: we come back, we'll go a little deeper on the 206 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: twenty fifth Amendment with the author of a new book 207 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: on the subject, Don't Go Anywhere. 208 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: Welcome back. 209 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: Joining me now is Rebecca Lubau. She's CEO and founder 210 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: of Luba's Strategies. She's worked in government and in the 211 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: nonprofit sector. She's author of the new book Keeping a 212 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: Finger on the Button, Presidential Continuity and the Nuclear Age. 213 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: Welcome doctor Lubau. 214 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 4: Thank you great to be here with you. 215 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this book is so timely as we're 216 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: engaging with a nuclear threshold state like Leke Iran, as 217 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: our president is threatening to wipe out a civilization off 218 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: the planet, which many took to mean nuclear strikes, but 219 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: also as we're hearing more and more about the twenty 220 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: fifth Amendment being invoked, and you deal with the twenty 221 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: fifth Amendment quite a bit in your book, So I want. 222 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: To start there. Take us back a little bit. 223 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: What led to the ratification of the twenty fifth Amendment 224 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: in the first place. 225 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: Great, so it was about one hundred and seventy nine 226 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 3: years since the Constitution before the ratification of the twenty 227 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 3: fifth Amendment, and basically Article two, Section one provides for 228 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: the vice president taking over for the president should the 229 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: president die in office, but that left. 230 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 4: The vice presidency vacant. 231 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: There were no provisions for if a president was left 232 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: enabled and could not assume the powers and duties at 233 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: the office. There was no line of succession past the 234 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 3: vice president. So all of these were debated from time 235 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 3: to time throughout history until the ratification. In fact, there 236 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 3: were eight unplanned presidential successions and sixteen unplanned you know, 237 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: vice presidential vacancies. And then there was activity in earnest 238 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 3: really around the time of the dropping of the bomb. 239 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 3: So there was originally that was like seventeen ninety two 240 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: provided for some legislative succession after the vice president, so 241 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 3: this Speaker and the Senate President pro tempop would step 242 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 3: into that role. Then eighteen eighty six there was some activity. 243 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: It changed the order of success became just a cabinet 244 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: line of succession, so they skipped over the speaker and 245 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 3: the Senate President pro tem and then and then you 246 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: really see you know, nineteen forty five is the dropping 247 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: in the bomb. Nineteen forty seven, you see with Truman 248 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 3: the Presidential Succession Act, and Truman had a great relationship 249 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 3: with House Speaker Rayburn, so in part for that reason 250 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: and in part because he felt that executive succession was undemocratic, 251 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 3: because these cabinet officials were not elected by the charity 252 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 3: of the populous. So he put in place, you know, 253 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: the Presidential Succession Act of nineteen forty seven put in 254 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: place this executive line of succession. And then you see 255 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 3: Eisenhower and Nixon had a letter agreement. Kennedy and Johnson 256 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 3: also did the same, and then Kennedy was assassinated. 257 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: So in this the wake of the Kennedy. 258 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: Assassination and this period of great anxiety around nuclear their warfare, 259 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: that's when you see this activity really pick up. And 260 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: so February tenth, nineteen forty seven, after much debate, and 261 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: then of course three quarters of states have to ratify 262 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: you see, finally and amendments that addresses these issues, although 263 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: it left us with some holes and gaps, some purposeful 264 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 3: that my book keeping a finger on the button towards 265 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: the and I suggest some ways in which we can 266 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: build some of these gaps. 267 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to ask you about the gaps, 268 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: but before I do, you also say that multiple administrations 269 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: amplified that anxiety of the nation. Was that was that 270 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: intentional or was that just how they maneuvered through the time. 271 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. So, and it's a lot about the rhetoric of 272 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 4: the president. 273 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 3: You see this in particular, you know, during the colds 274 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: War and you know other things. 275 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 4: Is that that take place? 276 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: In fact, I listened to your podcast on Artemis too 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: and really great and nineteen fifty seven's Buttnick for example. 278 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 3: Finally there was this this method to deliver bombs. So 279 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: not only did the Soviets develop the bomb quite quicker 280 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: than American scientists thought they would, but now this this 281 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: what was science fiction became reality. Right, there was this 282 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: ability to deliver these nuclear missiles. So you see, you know, 283 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: the rhetoric change, and and you also see politicians preparing 284 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: for both continuity the president and and then you know 285 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: the civil preparedness, continuity of government and continuity of you know, society. 286 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 4: And then that's also echoed in culture. 287 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: Right, So do you think like without. 288 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: The advent of nuclear energy, would we not get the 289 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: twenty fifth Amendment? 290 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 3: You know, that's that's an interesting because it does seem 291 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: like Kennedy's assassination and this you know, now that we're 292 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 3: in this modern era of globalization, the speed, time and 293 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 3: pace of communications has increased. So I think it was 294 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: the proximate and prime cause. But a really important reason 295 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: was this nuclear anxiety. And so I've examined unline archives. 296 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 3: I was fortunate to talk with the author of the amendment, 297 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: US Senator birch By before he passed, and he said, 298 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 3: I said, you know, Senator, was nuclear anxiety on like 299 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 3: in the back of your mind, you know, early on 300 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 3: in my research process. And he said it was impossible 301 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: for it not to be on the forefront rather back 302 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: of his mind, And so I would dug into the archives. 303 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: I was fortunate to have access the US Senate Historians. 304 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 3: Archives, and you can see throughout congressional debate in both 305 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: houses and in the States, how this fear of a 306 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: nuclear armageddon pushed the process forward. 307 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: So interesting. 308 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: So you mentioned there are gaps in this amendment just 309 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: relevant for today. 310 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: Talk about what some of those gaps are. 311 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the first one is I think perhaps most 312 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: relevant is inability. What constitutes inability, and that hasn't been decided. 313 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 3: So usually when like the I think we're up to 314 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: eighty five the congressional members who are calling for the 315 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 3: twenty fifth Amendment right now, but when they're calling for 316 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: the twenty fifth Amendment, they're usually calling for Section four 317 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: of the amendment. And so really the twenty fifth Amendment 318 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: allows for the president to decide that he's enabled and 319 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 3: then take back the responsibilities, the powers and duties when 320 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: he decides he's able. 321 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 4: The section four says, well, if he's in a. 322 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 3: Position of inability and he can't make that call, then 323 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: the vice president and a majority of cabinet or a 324 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 3: body that Congress so provides designates by law will. 325 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 4: Make that decision. 326 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: So the Congress has not designated a body, which I 327 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 3: think they should do, and that body should be composed 328 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: of experts that are nonpartisan, impartial and there yeah, and 329 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: that don't owe their positions of power to the president 330 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: like the vice president and the cabinet do, right, right, 331 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 3: So that's the first issue is what constitutes inability. 332 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: So that part inability that has never gone up to 333 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: a court level that adjudicated or delineated codified exactly what 334 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: that means. 335 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: That hasn't done that yet. 336 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: No, And there's been a number of you know, commissions 337 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: and studies and fat former President Carter was on a 338 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: commission to determine and you know what would comprise this body? 339 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 3: You know what type of medical experts? Who gets to decide? 340 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: Does the president shoose, does Congress get to choose members? 341 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: Does it include maybe psychiatrists? And for example, to you know, 342 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 3: determine to make this determination and then you know, this 343 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 3: body would be more likely than the president and the 344 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 3: majority of the cabinet to suggest invoking Section four. 345 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 4: And I think it would probably still be up to 346 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 4: the vice. 347 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 3: President because all of the mechanisms of the twenty fifth 348 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: Amendment revolve around the vice president. 349 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: Right, So for all the folks, and we talked about 350 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: this a little bit before the break, for all the 351 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: folks talking about invoking the twenty fifth Amendment, just in 352 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: today's political landscape, with what we know about JD Vance 353 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: for example, for what we know about this cabinet. We've 354 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: all seen a cabinet meeting where they go around obsequiously, 355 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: you know, praising the president. Does it impossible that the 356 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: vice president and a majority of the cabinet would vote 357 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: to invoke this. 358 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: In short, no, And I did study this in periods 359 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 3: of high nuclear tensions during the Cold War. And for example, 360 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: if you look at Reagan and the assassination attempts in 361 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: March in nineteen eighty one, you know, his lung was 362 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: punctured and he you know, he made a show and 363 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 3: he sort of stumbled into the hospital and then you know, 364 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 3: he was joking and things like that. 365 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 4: But that was exactly. 366 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: When if he was going to be knocked out with anesthesia. 367 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: That's exactly a situation in which the framers of the 368 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 3: twenty fifth Amendment thought that it should be invoked, whether 369 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 3: my president and the cabinet, if he was already enables 370 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 3: or if he knew that he was going into surgery and. 371 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 4: You know, should invoke it. 372 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 3: So it shows these these patterns where you know that 373 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 3: it's not going to be invoked because the individuals around 374 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: the president are concerned about their power, and the president 375 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 3: himself is concerned about his imagery. Because the thought with 376 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 3: Reagan was he might recover from this punctured lung, but 377 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: he wouldn't recover from the imagery of appearing week and 378 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: an Aga and yeah, so that is so it's very 379 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 3: unlikely that Section four would be invoked successfully. 380 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I can't believe I'm asking this question, 381 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: but it is relevant what what happens to the nuclear 382 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: codes during this period of transition, if that were ever 383 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: to happen. 384 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's interesting because, as you know, the president 385 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: has someone who follows him with this nuclear football, and 386 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: the nucletar football itself is really interesting because in some 387 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 3: ways is the only physical manifestation of the nation's head 388 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 3: of stage right, because King Charles, for example, as the 389 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: orb and the scepter and the crown and all the 390 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 3: president as head of statelely has is this. 391 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: Nuclear football and the codes. 392 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: And during the Reagan assassination attempt right after that, you know, 393 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: the codes were in a soup pocket, you know, kept 394 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 3: by the. 395 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 4: FBI as evidence. 396 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 3: They weren't even with you know, the president at the time, 397 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 3: and so it was it's just really, you know, importance 398 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: is such an important, you know, like topic though we 399 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 3: haven't really considered. And after January, during January sixth, during 400 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 3: the insurrection of the Capitol, when the mob was sort 401 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: of looking for Vice President Pence, they got within about 402 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: one hundred feet of him and his nuclear football, and 403 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: he just escaped down a different card. 404 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 4: So and you know, had they gotten hold of them, 405 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: they probably couldn't have done much with it. 406 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 3: But you know there's really you know, terrorist groups and 407 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: things would have paid for that information to try to 408 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 3: figure out how it worked. 409 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 4: So really really scary. But and and of course. 410 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: One of the other things I suggest in the book 411 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 3: is that we really need to take a look at 412 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: the president and the fact that he is the sole 413 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 3: authority over nuclear weapons. 414 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, especially this president, right, this president has in many 415 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: ways become sort of the test case for so much 416 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: of what's in the Constitution and why it's in the 417 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: constitution for a president like this who wants to test 418 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: it constantly and really doesn't have. 419 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: A ton of affection. 420 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: For its legitimacy, and it's and it's supremacy. So it's 421 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: really interesting. And I can't think of more like high 422 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: stakes than nuclear war at this time. 423 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, And and so that's why I mean, 424 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: I think people are thinking the fact that he threatens 425 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 3: the end of civilization, which implies potentially the use of 426 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: a nuclear weapon, and the fact that the chances of 427 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 3: him using a nuclear weapon are not zero. 428 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: That on zero should. 429 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 3: Make I think everyone around the globe concerned and hopefully 430 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: make policymakers focus on this issue and act. 431 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 4: But the thing with the. 432 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 3: Twenty fifth Amendment and these eighty five members of Congress 433 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 3: that are so far that are calling for it, is 434 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 3: that the twenty fifth Amendment was never designed to remove 435 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 3: a president permanently. So it was designed to address these 436 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: issues of inability, but it wasn't designed to be used 437 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 3: for political disagreements, policy disagreements, or even you know what 438 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 3: might be unfitness or even like some people say, well 439 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: his presidential temperament, right, he's rash, and so it wasn't 440 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: designed to be used in any of these cases. 441 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: So that kind of makes it sound like a pipe 442 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: dream for those of those people who are wishing that 443 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: would happen. 444 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think, well two thoughts on that. 445 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 3: I think impeachment is actually more plausible, and it requires 446 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: seventy more votes in the House the twenty fifth Amendment 447 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 3: than impeachment. 448 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the lower threshold exactly. 449 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 3: And my other thought is something I suggest it's actually 450 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: a constitutional law scholar Brian Calls, who originally suggested it, 451 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 3: but that perhaps taking a flexible view of the twenty 452 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: fifth Amendment and the Constitution in cases of irreparable catastrophe. 453 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: So something like this where the president has this finger 454 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 3: on the nuclear button and is about to press it, 455 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 3: that perhaps at that point the twenty fifth Amendment could 456 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 3: be invoked, even though perhaps he's not enabled, just so 457 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: that his head, he'd like cooler heads would prevail. He 458 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: would be temporarily removed, you know, his hot head could 459 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: cool off, and then you know, at then perhaps you know, 460 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 3: he could regain the presidency, because again it was not 461 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: the twenty at the moment wasn't designed for permanent removal. 462 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: Whereas oh, yeah, it's so interesting. 463 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: The book is keeping a finger on the button, presidential 464 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: continuity and the nuclear age. Doctor Rebecca Lubou, thanks so 465 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: much for joining us. This was really interesting. And before 466 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: I before I let you go, we like to end 467 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: with an exit poll of three questions of varying degrees 468 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: of seriousness. So my first question to you is what's 469 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: your favorite movie about presidential power? 470 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 3: That's interesting and I do address you know, this anxiety 471 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 3: in culture culture, yeah, around nuclear weapons, and so I 472 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 3: do trace some that by film books. Yeah, movies song TV, 473 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 3: and I would think that relevant to the topic that 474 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 3: the nineteen sixty four is Stanley Kubrick movie Doctor Strangelove 475 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 3: or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the 476 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: Bomb is the quintessential movie on their topic, right, So 477 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: that's the one where it insane. US General orders a strike, 478 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: orders a strike on Moscow, and so the US President, 479 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 3: in order to avoid additional retaliation by the Soviets, offers 480 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 3: to strike New York with a nuclear missile. 481 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 4: Not that it's on the National. 482 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: Registry, you know, the Film Registry and the Library of Congress, 483 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: I think speaks to its enduring cultural significance. 484 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. I you know, as a kid, 485 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: I was really captivated by war games. Yeah, that's a 486 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: good one. 487 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: And then later in life, Some of All Fears is 488 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: a really really good movie about how bad things could 489 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: go because of miscommunication and bad actors and the messiness 490 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: of those moments. 491 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: So there's some some a bunch of really good ones. Second, 492 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: who's a policy person. 493 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: That you really like on this topic for our listeners 494 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: to go and find besides yourself? 495 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think maybe Ted lu right, he has the 496 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen restricting first use of NIKO the Weapons Act 497 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: that was reintroduced you know, in every Congress from least 498 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 3: from one hundred and sixteenth to the one hundred and nineteenth. 499 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: Jamie Congressman right, and Jamie Raskin too, he's more than one. 500 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: The second time with Speaker Nancy Pelosi at the time, 501 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 3: introduced one on inability and creating a medical body. 502 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 4: So I would like to see that. 503 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: They're on the forefront of this. Yeah, okay. 504 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: And finally, how do we ensure that our democracy continues? 505 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 4: Wow? 506 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: Well, I think we've been talking about how to ensure 507 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: that human kind and continue. 508 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 4: So I think that that's first and foremost. 509 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: Yes, But also our democracy, I believe is also imperiled. 510 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 4: And I think you know, it's if. 511 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: The people lead, eventually the leaders will follow. 512 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 4: You've you've heard that saying, so. 513 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: You know, continue to you know, reach out to your 514 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: legislators and and your vote is your voice, so keep 515 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: keep voting. 516 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in it. 517 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: We're in an election year, guys, you're going to get 518 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: your chance just a few months. 519 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: Get out there. Okay. 520 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to uh doctor Rebecca Lubou and 521 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: thank you for joining. 522 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. 523 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as 524 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: part of the Reason Choice Network. 525 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: If you want more, check out the other. 526 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill, and Native Land Pod. 527 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: For Off the Cup, I'm your host, SI Cup editing 528 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: and sound designed by Derek Clements. 529 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: Our executive producer are me A se cop Lauren Hanson, 530 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: and Lindsay Hoffman. 531 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. 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