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Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about war. Israel has

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Speaker 1: declared war for the first time since nineteen seventy three

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Speaker 1: after the slaughter of at least thirteen hundred people at

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Speaker 1: the hands of Hamas terrorists. What will this war look like?

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Speaker 1: Will it become a regional war? What does it mean

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Speaker 1: when country is like Qatar or housing Hamas leadership? What

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Speaker 1: do we do with them? There's a lot of different

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Speaker 1: angles to this story, a lot of different angles to

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Speaker 1: this ongoing war. We're going to get into all of them.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get in all of them with a

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Speaker 1: man by the name of John W. Miller. He is

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Speaker 1: a retired United States Navy Vice admiral who last served

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Speaker 1: as commander of the US Naval Forces Central Command, US

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Speaker 1: Fifth Fleet in Bahran. He spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East. He knows the players, he knows

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Speaker 1: who to look out for. We're going to get his

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Speaker 1: take on all of it, So stay tuned for Vice

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Speaker 1: Admiral John Miller. Well, Vice Admiral, it's great to have

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Speaker 1: you on the show. Show. Not only are you an

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Speaker 1: expert in this, but you're also my friend's dads. We've

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Speaker 1: known each other and so I appreciate you making the time, Sara,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate your service to the country.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Lisa. Great to be with you.

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Speaker 1: You know, Vice Adaml you look at these calls from

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Speaker 1: Moss for a Global Day of Jahad. We're recording this

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Speaker 1: on a Friday. This will be out on the following Monday.

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Speaker 1: We've had open borders for over two years. What is

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Speaker 1: the likelihood of terror cells operating in the United States?

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Speaker 2: Now it's assured we have terror cells operating in the

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Speaker 2: United States. You cannot let millions of people across the

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Speaker 2: border that are completely unvetted that get into the country

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Speaker 2: much easier than you and I can get back into

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Speaker 2: our own country with our own passport at an airport,

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Speaker 2: and not expect that there's going to be the farious

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Speaker 2: characters entering the United States and planning or doing the

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Speaker 2: farious things.

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Speaker 1: Extremely concerning, particularly when we look at the streets around

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Speaker 1: the Western world and you look at these huge pro

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Speaker 1: Palestinian which is really pro Hamas, pro Jahad, pro terrorism

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Speaker 1: rallies that we're we're seeing around the world. It's concerning

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Speaker 1: about who we've let in. You know, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you look at the moves that Russia made with Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: You look at around you know, being behind this, and

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Speaker 1: what's happening in the Middle East, and it sort of

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Speaker 1: begs the question, is the United States still a superpower?

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Speaker 2: I think it's an excellent question and one that all

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Speaker 2: of us should be a little bit introspective about in

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Speaker 2: terms of what role the United States is going to

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Speaker 2: play in the immediate future and what role it's going

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Speaker 2: to play in the world in the long term. But clearly,

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Speaker 2: when we look at deterrent activities that the US has

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Speaker 2: been involved in over the last let's say two or

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Speaker 2: three years, we didn't deter Russia from invading Ukraine. We

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Speaker 2: didn't deter Hamas from invading Israel. It's entirely likely that

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Speaker 2: we're not going to deter given the current track record,

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Speaker 2: Taiwan China from invading Taiwan. And so if you define

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Speaker 2: as superpower, as a global power that can influence world

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Speaker 2: events and to make sure that world events that are

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Speaker 2: not in the common interest of the global community don't happen,

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Speaker 2: then we're challenged to call ourselves a superpower because Russia

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to think we are, Hamas does not seem

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Speaker 2: to think we are, and China likely doesn't think we are,

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Speaker 2: and so you can't call yourself a superpower if no

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Speaker 2: one else thinks.

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Speaker 1: You are, you know, And I think there's probably, you know,

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Speaker 1: a debate to be had about what that role looks like,

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Speaker 1: what deterrens, you know, looks like. I think, to Trump's credit,

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Speaker 1: he opened my eyes and the fact that you know,

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Speaker 1: you can be strong and with less intervention, you know,

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Speaker 1: And so I think that, but you have to be strong.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of where we are now, is we

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Speaker 1: don't have that strength in the White House from this administration.

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Speaker 1: You know, we know that Auron, China, and Russia have

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Speaker 1: grown closer under the administration. You know, it's been reported

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Speaker 1: about Iran's involvement. We know that HAMAS would not exist

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Speaker 1: without Iran. There's also been reports that Russia has hosted

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Speaker 1: HAMAS leaders in recent months, in recent years. What knowledge

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Speaker 1: do you think Russia or China had about these attacks?

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Speaker 2: It's an excellent question. It's really hard to know. And

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Speaker 2: what I would tell you that I suspect without actually knowing,

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Speaker 2: is that China had little or no knowledge of what

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Speaker 2: is happening and the attacks that HAMAS is planning. But

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Speaker 2: I think the Russian has had a much better idea

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Speaker 2: of it, because they're much more involved from a political

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Speaker 2: and military standpoint in the Gulf than China is. China

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Speaker 2: is just sort of starting to spread their wings militarily.

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Speaker 2: They're there diplomatically, but not deeply engaged and not necessarily

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Speaker 2: engaged with adversaries or potential adversaries. But Russia is there,

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Speaker 2: and they've been there ever since the Obama administration, when

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Speaker 2: we opened up Syria back to the Russians in a

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Speaker 2: way that hadn't been the case since the Cold War.

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Speaker 2: And so they're there militarily, they're fighting on the ground

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Speaker 2: in Syria, they're influencing events that are happening in Lebanon,

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Speaker 2: they're influencing events clearly that are happening on the Gaza Strip.

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Speaker 2: So I think the Russians have more fingerprints on this

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Speaker 2: certainly than the Chinese do. And it's something for us

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Speaker 2: to continue to watch because there's a confluence, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: of an alliance between the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians,

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Speaker 2: perhaps some other bad actors, including the North Koreans. We

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Speaker 2: should not discount that and discount the long term ramifications

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Speaker 2: of such an alliance. And we're seeing that play out.

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Speaker 2: I think in what's happening today in.

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Speaker 1: Israel, would it be fair to say that China is

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Speaker 1: okay with what it you know, Russia is doing with

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Speaker 1: Ukraine and you know, bringing us into what's going on

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Speaker 1: in Europe, and that you know, China is okay with

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Speaker 1: US now being involved in what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East and being pulled into that in the sense

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Speaker 1: of it it weakens or hand, it distracts US, and

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Speaker 1: it gives them a better opportunity to then take Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: Would would that be a fair statement to make?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely a fair statement, And I think it's

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Speaker 2: it's fair to say that China is okay or happy

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Speaker 2: with any activity that involves the United States on the

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Speaker 2: global stage, as this particular event does, or as the

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Speaker 2: war in Ukraine does, because it distracts US, it takes

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Speaker 2: resources from us. It is something that Americans are concerned

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Speaker 2: about and continue to be concerned about. All of those

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Speaker 2: are distractions to the American people, to the American government.

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Speaker 2: Chinese are happy with that because it allows them more

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Speaker 2: freedom of maneuver, not only in Taiwan, but especially in Taiwan.

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Speaker 2: But of course throughout the entire Western Pacific because we're

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Speaker 2: paying attention someplace else. And certainly, if you look at

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Speaker 2: the conversations that are taking place in the Foreign Policy

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Speaker 2: Room in Washington this week, it has nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with China or Taiwan. It has everything to do with

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Speaker 2: what's happening in Israel between the Israelis and this terrorist

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Speaker 2: organization AMAS. So the Chinese find that to be most useful.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, I think the Russians also find

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Speaker 2: it useful because this distracts, this activity, distracts from the

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Speaker 2: conflict that's going on in the Ukraine, and we're having

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Speaker 2: a rather fruitless discussion about whether we can support the Ukrainians,

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Speaker 2: or whether we can support these Israelis, or how in

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Speaker 2: the world could we support both. Clearly we can support both,

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Speaker 2: and so that's a very specious argument that we shouldn't

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Speaker 2: even be having, and there shouldn't be any doubt that

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Speaker 2: we need to support both the Ukrainians and the Israelis.

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Speaker 1: Although in fairness, I think the people making that argument,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we depleted our military arsenal and we're pretty much,

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Speaker 1: you know, poor, were broke, so I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: are we even capable do we have the resources to

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Speaker 1: fight a multi front war, I think is the concern.

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Speaker 1: I personally, I respect your opinion, but I think that

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Speaker 1: is a fair you know. And then I also think

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Speaker 1: with Ukraine it's slightly different in the sense of, you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at the eastern part of Ukraine and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the people living there consider themselves Russia, because

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Speaker 1: Ukraine's been a country for a less amount of time

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Speaker 1: that I've been alive. And then you also look at

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know, Russia is four times the population,

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Speaker 1: four times the military personnel as Ukraine is, Like, is

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Speaker 1: the war even winnable? You know? So what's the end goal?

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Speaker 1: What are we supporting? Especially if Russia just inevitably walks

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Speaker 1: away with the territory that can say themselves Russian. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm personally on the side of I

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Speaker 1: find that just a little bit more questionable, particularly the

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Speaker 1: fact that the country has a history of corruption, and

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Speaker 1: our own president has a history of corruption. With that country,

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Speaker 1: We've given them a lot of money with very little oversight.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, you know, I really really you know,

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Speaker 1: you know more about this. I really respect your opinion,

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Speaker 1: but I do have some concerns there. If I'm being

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Speaker 1: perfectly honest.

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Speaker 2: You bring up some really valid points about Ukraine. It

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Speaker 2: is not the shining beacon on the hill of democracy,

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Speaker 2: has never been. Its history goes back a little longer

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Speaker 2: than you do, because it goes back to you know,

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Speaker 2: the eight hundreds or somewhere in that time frame when

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Speaker 2: Kiev was first founded. So the Ukraine national identity has

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Speaker 2: a little bit more legs to it. I think you

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Speaker 2: give it credit for that. Said, you're right, like a

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Speaker 2: lot of countries.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of independence as a country, it's been

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Speaker 1: what thirty thirty years I believe thirty eight, so you know, maybe.

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Speaker 2: Let's call it ninety six if we want to be

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Speaker 2: This is when the US, the UK, the Russians, and

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Speaker 2: the Ukrainians made an agreement that we would all help

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Speaker 2: respect the Ukrainian borders and exchange for that, the Ukrainians

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Speaker 2: agreed that they would turn over the nuclear weapons, of

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Speaker 2: which they had about thirty five hundred, and they turned

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Speaker 2: them over. So that was a good thing. What concerns

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Speaker 2: me about Ukraine is not many of the things you

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Speaker 2: talked about. They're all concerning. I don't want to discount

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Speaker 2: that in any way, there's corruption in the country. The

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Speaker 2: eastern part of the country largely identifies as ethnically Russian.

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Speaker 2: That's certainly the case. But what we have is an

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Speaker 2: established border, established and recognized by the UN, by Russia,

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Speaker 2: by the United States, United Kingdom, and by the Ukrainians,

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Speaker 2: and a permanent member of the National Security Council invaded

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Speaker 2: that country. And Ukraine is also a member of the

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Speaker 2: United Nations, and so we should all be concerned by that,

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Speaker 2: just on principle. I don't want to move off the

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Speaker 2: very important discussion that we were having concerning Israel and Hamas,

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Speaker 2: because that's it's really important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, Wady. I mean at bottom line is I

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Speaker 1: think every country has a right to defend its own borders.

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Speaker 1: So you fully respect Ukraine's desire to do that, their

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Speaker 1: will to do that, and the intention behind that. You know,

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Speaker 1: every country deserves that. It's just you know, the question

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Speaker 1: I think where there's a lot of argument and is well,

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Speaker 1: what does a rule look like in that. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick commercial break. More in the war in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East. Let's get back to Israel. You know, when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about Ukraine Russia, we're talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of more traditional war. How does it change war

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Speaker 1: when we are talking about Hamas, who are you know terrorists?

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're savages. They don't adhere to international law,

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Speaker 1: they don't adhere to the rules of war. In Israel's

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Speaker 1: response to Hamas, how does that change war?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure it changed war any differently than our

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Speaker 2: view of war was changed on nine to eleven, where

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Speaker 2: we as a country we didn't expect attacks from inside

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Speaker 2: the country with our own airliners. What we've seen from

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Speaker 2: Hamas is that same sort of disregard for human life,

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Speaker 2: a disregard for the laws of armed conflict, disregard for

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Speaker 2: how nation states go to war with other nation states

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Speaker 2: in terms of being able to settle their disagreements. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know that we've learned a lot more. We

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Speaker 2: just learned it in a much more personal way where

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Speaker 2: you have these terrorists and there's no other way to

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Speaker 2: describe them from Hamas leaving the borders of the Gaza

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Speaker 2: Strip and going into Israel and slaughtering innocent men, women

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Speaker 2: and children. And imagine what kind of person does it

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Speaker 2: take to be able to behead a baby. So they

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Speaker 2: personalize this in a way that I think is the

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Speaker 2: real learning lesson for us to have that kind of

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Speaker 2: evil exist, where young men can go across the border,

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Speaker 2: kidnap women, kidnap babies, kidnap children, slaughter them, slaughter entire families,

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Speaker 2: burn them in their beds, or shoot them in their beds.

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Speaker 2: That's what we've learned is there's a level of evil

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Speaker 2: here that really is unprecedented with the exception of Isis.

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Speaker 2: And so if you look at the evolution of terrorists

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Speaker 2: over the last years of the twenty first century, we

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Speaker 2: went from nine to eleven, which was heinous in its

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Speaker 2: own sense, to things that are much worse where Isis

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Speaker 2: is putting people in cages and dropping them in water.

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Speaker 2: And now we have what we've seen from Hamas. That

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Speaker 2: kind of evil. You don't negotiate with it. You don't

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Speaker 2: discuss things with them, You don't sit around a negotiating

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Speaker 2: table and come to terms. You either stamp out that

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Speaker 2: evil or your perish from it. You know.

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Speaker 1: So Israel has declared war for the first time since

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. What do you think this war will

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Speaker 1: look like?

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Speaker 2: It's going to take some time. But when we talk

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Speaker 2: about what takes time, on the Israeli timescale versus what

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Speaker 2: takes time on our own timescale. You know, we were

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan for a couple of decades. We were in

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Speaker 2: Iraq for a very long time, well over a decade.

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Speaker 2: I think the Israelis, when you look at the history

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Speaker 2: of the wars that they've fought over the last since

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Speaker 2: they become a modern country, they're all relatively short wars.

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Speaker 2: I think the Israelis think, And when I talk to

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Speaker 2: my friends in Israel, this is what I'm hearing. This

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Speaker 2: war is going to take not days and weeks, it's

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Speaker 2: going to take months, and it's going to be very difficult.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be brutal on both sides. The people

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Speaker 2: that are going to pay the price are the people,

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Speaker 2: just like the people that have already paid the price,

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Speaker 2: so Israeli civilians. If you look at the Gaza Strip,

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Speaker 2: it's not very big. It has over two million people

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Speaker 2: in it. And so when the government that's in charge

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Speaker 2: in Gaza, which is a terrorist organization, you know, they

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Speaker 2: use their people to defend their weapons, and the Israelis

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Speaker 2: use their weapons to defend their people. That's the big difference.

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Speaker 2: So it's going to be a very difficult fight. But

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Speaker 2: I think it's going to take a couple of months. Uh,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be a lot of bad publicity on

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Speaker 2: the side of the Israelis because they will prevail in

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Speaker 2: this fight. There's no doubt about that in my mind,

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Speaker 2: because that's how they continue to exist. But the price

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Speaker 2: that's going to be paid for Israeli freedom in their

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Speaker 2: own country, it comes at the cost of its people.

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Speaker 2: It's soldiers, and it comes at the cost of the

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Speaker 2: people that live in Gaza.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, you know, they're they're fighting a real war,

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Speaker 1: but they're also going to be faced with sort of

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Speaker 1: a propaganda war that is being waged against them because

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Speaker 1: as you pointed out, you know, they use humans, they

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Speaker 1: use their own people as human shields. They're using these

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Speaker 1: hostages as human shields. You know, they store its weapons

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Speaker 1: and hospitals, mosques and schools for that reason. So that's

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Speaker 1: going to be challenging, you know for them. Do do

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Speaker 1: you think that changes the way Israel fights this war

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Speaker 1: or do you think they're just just need to do

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Speaker 1: obviously what's best for their for their country in the

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Speaker 1: survival of Israel.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it informs the way that Israel fights

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Speaker 2: this war because they have to manage the perceptions of

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Speaker 2: the conflict, which is a difficult thing to do, especially

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Speaker 2: considering the circumstances that they find themselves in. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's something that it's essential that they do because

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Speaker 2: one of the challenges that Israeli defense forces face, the

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Speaker 2: IDF faces is they don't want to be fighting this

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Speaker 2: particular conflict that they're already involved in down south in

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Speaker 2: Gaza or on the border of Gaza, and at the

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Speaker 2: same time having to fight another fight up in northern

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Speaker 2: Israel with Lebanese Isbela because I think AMAS, the intelligence

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Speaker 2: estimates put their rocket arsenal in about thirty thousand rockets

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Speaker 2: as well has about five times that many rockets and missiles,

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Speaker 2: and so the Israelis don't want that conflict to expand

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Speaker 2: to there. They don't want it to expand with the

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Speaker 2: border that they have with Syria in any way, because

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Speaker 2: that becomes much more difficult for them to manage. And

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Speaker 2: so when they find themselves in this position where they

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Speaker 2: know they have to respond, well over a thousand I

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Speaker 2: think it's over twelve hundred Israelis have already been killed

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Speaker 2: in the conflict. They have to defend themselves they have

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Speaker 2: to defend their border, but they have to do it

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Speaker 2: in a very smart way, in a way that doesn't

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Speaker 2: allow Lebanese Azbela, it doesn't allow the Syrians the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to jump into this conflict as well.

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Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: you know, you understand these different players involved in all this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, will this be a regional war? And which countries,

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Speaker 1: which groups, which terrorist groups should we keep an eye on.

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Speaker 2: Well, we should be very helpful that it's not going

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Speaker 2: to be a more regional war, that it's not going

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Speaker 2: to expand. But if it does, and it could, and

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Speaker 2: so the jury remains out on that, it'll be out

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Speaker 2: on that for several weeks I think before we have

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Speaker 2: a good idea. It very well could be at least

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Speaker 2: that the plan is Hamasco's first, as Balla goes second,

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Speaker 2: and it's better coordinated than it appears at this particular time.

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Speaker 2: But that's not known and it's not necessarily a given.

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Speaker 2: But if it expands, it expands all around Israel. So

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Speaker 2: it expands at a minimum to Lebanon, the northern border levities,

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Speaker 2: is Bola with their one hundred and fifty thousand missiles

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Speaker 2: and rockets, it expands into Syria, these are more raids

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Speaker 2: I think that we would see into the land that

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Speaker 2: marks the border between Syria and Lebanon. And what I

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Speaker 2: don't think is likely to happen is that it will

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Speaker 2: expand to actual golf Arab states and so or Arab states.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think the Egyptian has become involved. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that anybody in the CCC, in the Persian,

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Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the Emirates, the Gutaris, I don't think

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Speaker 2: they become involved in the fight against the Israelis. I

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Speaker 2: don't see that happening. But Israel can find themselves fighting

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Speaker 2: a war against non state actors when you think about it,

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Speaker 2: on three sides at the same time, and there are

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Speaker 2: non state actors that have significant military capability. So that's

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Speaker 2: where I see the potential expansion happening. And it's up

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Speaker 2: to the Israelis to operate in a way that that

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Speaker 2: that helps the rest of the world manage that. It's

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Speaker 2: especially up to countries like the United States the United

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Speaker 2: Kingdom to be able to damp down the tensions in

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Speaker 2: the in the conflict and to and to limit it

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Speaker 2: to the area that it's in today or if it expands,

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Speaker 2: to limit that expansion.

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Speaker 1: Quick commercial break, stay with us. Well, one thing that

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Speaker 1: made me nervous, you know, and mentioning Hasbala is you

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Speaker 1: know I was reporting on this over the weekend when

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Speaker 1: I was working for Foxes doing some co hosts. Well,

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Speaker 1: you were on with us. But in reading the Well

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Speaker 1: Street Journal article about Iran's environment or involvement, it had

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Speaker 1: mentioned that part of this was four of a Ron

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Speaker 1: backed terrorist groups that were all part of the training

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Speaker 1: for this, which would then imply that to your point,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just to Moss that was training for this,

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Speaker 1: it was Hasbala and to you know, so that I

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Speaker 1: think that, uh, that's been the back of my mind

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Speaker 1: of just you know, being concerned that of the potent

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Speaker 1: just turning into regional war, because it seemed that perhaps

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Speaker 1: that's what they were planning for, given the reporting.

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Speaker 2: Given that Iran, which as you know, is the largest

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Speaker 2: world state sponsor of terrorism, is interested in the farious

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Speaker 2: activity that destabilizes the region, Given the fact that the

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Speaker 2: Iranian regime has on many many occasions publicly talked about

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Speaker 2: their desire to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

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Speaker 2: There's no doubt that Iran has involved in this Wall

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Speaker 2: Street Journal article that I think you're referencing, lays out

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Speaker 2: in good detail with great sources and not anonymous sources,

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Speaker 2: actual people that talk about the things that Iran did

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Speaker 2: to help Hamas prepare for this particular attack. There's no

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Speaker 2: doubt that there are Iranian footprints and fingerprints all over

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Speaker 2: this operation that Hamas is conducting. That's true, not just

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Speaker 2: for this particular operation between Hamas and the Israelis. It's

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Speaker 2: true up in Hisbola. Hisbola is a wholly owned subsidiary

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Speaker 2: of the regime in Iran. It's true in Yemen, it's

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Speaker 2: true in Syria. It's true to a lesser extent in

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Speaker 2: countries like Bahrain and Kuwait, where the Iranians are actively

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Speaker 2: supporting terrorist groups that are not friendly to the governments there. So,

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Speaker 2: if there's a malign activity happening in the Arabian Golf region,

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Speaker 2: it's supported in some way or another by the regime

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Speaker 2: in Iran. And so if we want to have a

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Speaker 2: more stable, peaceful Arabian Golf region, then we have to

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Speaker 2: do something about the continuous malign activity that the Iranians

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Speaker 2: are involved in.

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Speaker 1: You know, as you lay that out, and you know,

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Speaker 1: talk about the extensive reporting of the Wall Street Journal

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Speaker 1: and also just you know, the common sense of US

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Speaker 1: all knowing even at a base level, Iran's involvement being

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Speaker 1: the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism. Why then, do

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Speaker 1: you think this administration continues to downplay the possibility of

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Speaker 1: Iran's involvement. Is it just this continued appeasement that we've seen,

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Speaker 1: or is it strategy or why? Why do you think

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Speaker 1: they are just denying what seems to be common sense.

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Speaker 2: The activity that the US government has been engaged in.

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Speaker 2: And then this goes back all the way to the seventies,

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Speaker 2: and it was an idea that we don't have to

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Speaker 2: be friends and partners with just the air of the States.

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Speaker 2: We don't have to be friends and partners with just

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Speaker 2: the Persians, meaning Iran. We can be friends with both.

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Speaker 2: And that was an idea that was practiced in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen six companies. The only foreign country in the world

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Speaker 2: that we sold fourteen to fourteen's two was Iran. But

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Speaker 2: we had a good relationship with Iran, or we're trying

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Speaker 2: to develop a good relationship right up until the time

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Speaker 2: that they seized our embassy, and they seized all of

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Speaker 2: our people in the embassy and held them hostage for

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Speaker 2: four and forty four days. So the experiment, if you will,

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Speaker 2: that we're going to be friends with everybody in the

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Speaker 2: golf is a failed experiment. It failed in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: it failed during the Obama administration, it's failing today. And

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Speaker 2: why is it failing today? Why did it fail during

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Speaker 2: the Obama administration? Because there's nobody in Iran that wants

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Speaker 2: to be an ally or a partner or negotiate with

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Speaker 2: the United States in any sort of meaningful or fair way.

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Speaker 2: So we need to give up this idea. And I

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Speaker 2: remember hearing back when I was living in the region

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Speaker 2: as the fifth Leak commander oftentimes we shouldn't pick sides,

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Speaker 2: and thinking to myself, well, we already have all of

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Speaker 2: our military bases on the golf Arab side, and the

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Speaker 2: enemy that we're trying to protect the golf Arab States

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Speaker 2: from and global commerce and global security and regional security

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Speaker 2: from is on the other side of the golf. It's Iran.

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Speaker 2: And so it fluxes me why we would still be

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Speaker 2: interested in trying to come to some sort of an

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Speaker 2: accommodation with the Iranians when it's clear they're not interested

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Speaker 2: in the least bid in coming to an accommodation with us.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting to me is you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: under the previous administration, Trump spearheaded the Abraham Accords, which

433
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: you know is striving for Middle East or peace in

434
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: the Middle East, and you know, normalizing Arab Israel relationships.

435
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: And we know that Saudi Arabia was working on normalizing

436
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: relationships with Israel. But since the attack, since Israel was attacked,

437
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: terrorist attacks and killing their slaughtering their people in the

438
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: most horrific ways, Saudi Arabia has blamed Israel, Katar has

439
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: blamed Israel. So I mean, can relationships between Arab nations

440
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: and Israel be normalized?

441
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: I think the normalization process is going to go on.

442
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: The Abraham Accords were a great step in that regard.

443
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: They're every bit as important, if perhaps not more important,

444
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: than the Camp David Accords. I think we ought to

445
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: continue down the path of normalization. We supported the Saudis

446
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: in this particular case, in the Israelis have to agree

447
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: amongst themselves to support it. Obviously it's sidetracked currently based

448
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: on what's going on now. But I don't think we should.

449
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: We should give up that hope because that's better for

450
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: stability in the region, and we already see that today.

451
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: There's much more economic activity between non Abraham Accord signatories

452
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 2: and Israel than there has ever been before. So even

453
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: countries like Gutar or Saudi Arabia, or the Emirates or

454
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: the Kuwaitis who haven't signed that accord are are much

455
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 2: more inclined to be able to do business with the Israelis,

456
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: as you know, than they have been in the past.

457
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: That's really important because that economic interchange helps tie them

458
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 2: together and increase the stability of the region overall. Now,

459
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think we need to

460
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: continue to keep in mind is that these normalization activities

461
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: are quite difficult for the for the states on both sides,

462
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: for the Israelis, and for the air of States to

463
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: come to. But I think they're important that we continue

464
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: to do that because what we haven't done in and

465
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: all of these accords thus far. So if you look

466
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: at the Abraham Accords, you look at the agreement that

467
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: was just signed a couple of weeks ago between the

468
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: Bahrainis and the United States about mutual defense. If you

469
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: look at the framework for the Saudi Israeli normalization, none

470
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: of those addressed the Palestinian issue. That issue needs to

471
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: be addressed. And I don't know if the timing of

472
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: this attack by Hamas, I don't know how much the

473
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: impending at least what we all thought was impending Saudi

474
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: Israeli normalization, how much effect that had on their timing.

475
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: But clearly the issue of how to deal with Palestine

476
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: and the Palestinian people in particular, that needs to be addressed.

477
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: And at some point during these normalization processes, both the

478
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: Israelis and the Palestinians and the Gulf Arab States need

479
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 2: to understand we need to sit down and figure out

480
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: out how to solve this problem. And that's that hasn't

481
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 2: been done yet.

482
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Why do you think then Saudi Arabia immediately turned around

483
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: and blamed Israel, or you know, Katar immediately turned around

484
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: and blamed Israel. Is that more for their people or

485
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: you know what, like what you know obviously not a

486
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: very trustworthy partner.

487
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: Those are messages for the street, right and that's those

488
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: are the things that you say that help calm down

489
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: the street from this this potential crisis that could easily

490
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: spread outside of the immediate confines is Israel and Palestine,

491
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: and so I don't I don't give a lot of

492
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: credence to their comments. What I give more credence to. Frankly,

493
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: you know, the Qutaris are actively involved in trying to

494
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: release the hostages that are held in in the Gaza strip.

495
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I think a number of countries, including the Saudis and

496
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: the Bahrainis, are interested in trying to negotiate off ramps

497
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: to this conflict. Difficult work given the fact that neither

498
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: the Israelis nor Hamas seem necessarily interested in off ramps

499
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: at this point. But it's a good time to start

500
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: building those off ramps so that when it becomes obvious

501
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: that countries should take them Israelis or the terrorist group Amas,

502
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: that they have the ability to take them. So I

503
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: think that's all kind of the normal way of how

504
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: things go and diplomatic relations in the twenty first century,

505
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: in late twentieth century, so nothing new there.

506
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: Got to take a quick break more with Vice Admiral

507
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: John Miller on the other side, you know, a realistic

508
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: sense that sometimes we have to deal with evil people

509
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: it's you know, dealing with the less evil of the evil,

510
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of what serves or interest. But

511
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: then we see countries like Guitar who are housing Hamas leadership.

512
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: So even if you know, maybe they're trying to spearhead

513
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: some of these things or help us in some way,

514
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: they're still housing terrorist leadership who just waged probably you know,

515
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: some of the most disgusting things we've ever heard of

516
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: our entire lives against Israel, and yet they are fine

517
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: with housing Hama's leadership in their country. So it's like,

518
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: what do we do about that?

519
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. I was in Israel a

520
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: couple of years ago and I asked a member of

521
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: the IDF, the Qatari si about a billion dollars a

522
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: year to the Palestinians, so about half to the Gaza

523
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: Strip five hundred million, the other half goes to the

524
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: West Bank. I said, what do you think about that?

525
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: And his response was, well, without that aid, the conditions

526
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: in the Gaza Strip, Because we were standing outside a

527
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: tunnel built by Hamas that was in Israel, that had

528
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: come from the Gaza Strip. He said, without that aid,

529
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: the people in Gaza couldn't survive. And so the Israelis

530
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: actually manage that money. And so how do you deal

531
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: with the people or help the people that are in

532
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: Gaza without going through Hamas. So I think having Hamas

533
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: terrorists living in Doha is a problem for the Qataris.

534
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: But they're not there because the Qataris aren't necessarily in

535
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: agreement with the costs. They're there because this is how

536
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: they get aid to the two million people that live

537
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: in Gaza, most of whom don't really enjoy living under

538
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: this yoke of Hamas leadership that is terrorist based and

539
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: puts all of them at risk every day for their

540
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: perceived costs. And so that's something to deal with. It's

541
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: a little bit like, you know, kind of gets a

542
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: lot of criticism because they have or had, I think

543
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: they still do, an office for the Taliban in Doha.

544
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: The United States asked them to stand up that office.

545
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: That was that was the route that we used to

546
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: be able to deal with with the Taliban in a

547
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: diplomatic sense. So those things seem unsavory, Uh, they're they're

548
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: not things that we really want to hear about or discuss, uh.

549
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: But in some cases that's how you actually preserve peace

550
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: and save lives and Uh, I do think the guitarists

551
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: have a problem continuing to support Hamas given the sense

552
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 2: of slaughter that they've they've conducted in Uh, in southern Israel.

553
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: They'll have to work that you had mentioned the Palestinians,

554
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: I do, you know, you know, we're already kind of

555
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: seeing you know, like the media publications include the death

556
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: toll and and Gaza, and you know, there's obviously you know,

557
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: refugee crisis, but like the Palestinians voted Hamas into power

558
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: and in two thousand and six, I mean there's public

559
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: polling previously, I think even after the I can't remember,

560
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: I was twenty twenty one after that brief I think

561
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: it was eleven day war right between Israel and Hamas,

562
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: and then public polling after that the majority of Palestinians

563
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: had supported Hamas. After that, I mean, how much daylight

564
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: is there between terrorists and the people who support them,

565
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: you know one? And then you know two, you know,

566
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: look at Egypt closes its border to Gaza, not wanting

567
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: to let these people in. It's like, well, if they're

568
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: so peaceful, why is that?

569
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: You know?

570
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: And then we also look at all these videos of

571
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: Palestinian children being taught to kill Jews in that scenario,

572
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: I don't really know how much I would want to

573
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: be in a room with even a teenager in Gaza harboring,

574
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of hatred and being taught that. So,

575
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: like when we talk about the Palestinians, is it fair

576
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: to also raise the point that there might not be

577
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: as much daylight between the people of Palestine and Hamas,

578
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: who they voted into power in Gaza.

579
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: I think you bring up a great point, And what

580
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: that point really is is if you're a Palestinian, whether

581
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: you're living in Gaza or you're living on the West Bank,

582
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: and you get an opportunity to participate in an election,

583
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 2: and the election candidates are Hamas in the West Bank,

584
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: that's where they're headquartered. You've got the Palestinian Authority headquartered

585
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: in the West Bank, and you realize that one of

586
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: my choices is a terrorist organization, but they're already here

587
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: in Gaza with me and running things, including schools and

588
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: hospitals and everything that's important to my daily life. And

589
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: the other choice is a corrupt government. Makmoudibass Is in

590
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: his tenth or eleventh or twelfth year of a four

591
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: year term in the Palestini Authority. They're completely corrupt aid

592
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: that we give them. We recently release the maid to

593
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian people living in the West

594
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: Bank aren't going to see a penny of that. That

595
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: all goes to corruption. It goes to Budhabas and to

596
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: his guys. So when you have two really poor choices,

597
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: how do you choose? You know, you choose at the

598
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: very baseline level of what's going to keep you alive

599
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: and allow your family to eat and have shelter. And

600
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 2: so one of the things when we finally sit down

601
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: and decide we're going to address the Palestinian issue is

602
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: the Palestinian people, whether they live in the West Bank

603
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: or they live on the Gaza Strip, they desire a

604
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: government that's worthy of them and they don't have that today,

605
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: and so they're not even capable of establishing that today.

606
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: So the rest of the world needs to help them

607
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: establish a kind of government that will have the needs

608
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: of the people in mind. And there's no reason why

609
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 2: Palestinians can't live on the Gaza sh trip. They can't,

610
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: you know, they can live in the West Bank and

611
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 2: get along with the Israelis. You know, there are tens

612
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: of thousands of people that live in Gaza that cross

613
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: the border to work pre conflict. Every day, there's tens

614
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: of thousands of people that leave the West Bank and

615
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: go into Israel to work. There's no reason they can't

616
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: all get along, and the Israelis are especially interested in

617
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 2: making sure they do get along, because that's how they

618
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: preserve their their peace and their stability. But there's no

619
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: Palestinian leadership today that's capable of doing that, and that's

620
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 2: really what the Palestinian people need.

621
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: But there's also been reports that in part those work

622
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: permits that they gave to the Palestinians that might have

623
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: also been a part of the planning and getting some

624
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: of this information and this you know, tactical information back

625
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: over the Moss. There's been some reports and concerns that

626
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: that is part of some of the intelligence breakdown. And

627
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: then also like you watch some of these videos of

628
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, little kids throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers or

629
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: talking about stabbing Jews, and I mean it's very clear

630
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: that there is a generational hate that is being passed

631
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: down in some of these places, you know, and so

632
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: it's I don't know if I'm not fully convinced that

633
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: there could be a two state solution or that, you know,

634
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm not fully convinced that the people Palestine would be

635
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: able to coexist in a peaceful way with the Israelis.

636
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: I just, you know, I just I think sometimes like

637
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: the generational hate that is being brought down is uh,

638
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: you know, or the belief in Jahad is like maybe

639
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: a little too difficult to break, you know, but I

640
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: don't know it's And then also like why won't Egypt

641
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: then open its borders to these you know, peaceful quote

642
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: untouquote people.

643
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: You bring up a great point, and I don't disagree

644
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: with it at all. I mean the toxic atmosphere if

645
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: you look at what the children in Gaza, for example,

646
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: are being taught. You know, if you have five Jews

647
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: and four bullets and you shoot four Jews, how many

648
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: Jews do you have left? That's sort of hateful. I mean,

649
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: you know, that's the way they're going to teach mathematics

650
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 2: to their to the youngsters. There's a there's a lot

651
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: of hate and uh propaganda to overcome. It can be done.

652
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: It doesn't happen right away. It will take time, because

653
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: to your point, this generational hate, which is not in

654
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: its first generation, it's in a third or fourth. It's

655
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: going to have to be overcome, and it's going to

656
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: be difficult work. But until that work is is is undertaken,

657
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: and and and until that work begins, we're just going

658
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: to continue to have the kind of environment that we

659
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: have right now, and that environment over time is not

660
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: sustainable for the region, and it's not healthy for anybody

661
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 2: in the region on either side of the conflict.

662
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: Will this become a world war?

663
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: I don't see that this expands beyond the region. I

664
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: hope and I think that it won't expand and beyond

665
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 2: non state actors in the region. But it's decisive, divisive enough,

666
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: and difficult enough that I think it's hard to predict

667
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: where it goes. And we see all across the world

668
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 2: there are rallies being held in support of the Palestinians.

669
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: To a lesser extent, I'm sad to say, there are

670
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: rallies being held on behalf of the Israelis and the

671
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: Jewish people. So there's an anti Semitism bent to this

672
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: that's very unfortunate. But I don't see Russia I mean,

673
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: if we're going to have a world war, then the

674
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: United States and Russia and China all have to get

675
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 2: in on that. I don't see this being a focal

676
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: point for that, but I do see that it's going

677
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: to be a difficult time ahead and the people that

678
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: live in the region are going to suffer from it,

679
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: and they will have concer quince. Is that spread across

680
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: the entire globe.

681
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: It is China the smartest of all in this and

682
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: watching you know, we've obviously become a weaker nation. You know,

683
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: the Russians are entangled in what's going on in Ukraine,

684
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: the Iranians. Is China sort of how much is China

685
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: benefit I've benefited, I guess under the Biden administration and

686
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: with all of this.

687
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: We have overseas bases in the Middle East. We have

688
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: one it's a fifth Leet headquarters in Bahrain, but we

689
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 2: also have agreements where we use bases in other Golf

690
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: are of States air bases and Cutter air bases in

691
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: the Emirates, Army bases in Kuwait. We have bases in Europe.

692
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: We have bases in the Western Pacific. Most of these

693
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 2: bases we've had since the end of World War Two.

694
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: The Chinese have one overseas base. It's in Djibouti in

695
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: the Horn of Africa, and what they're building is the

696
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: Belton Road. So they're building economic ties, either by land

697
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: or by sea, across the globe, and with that they're

698
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: building influence. So they've had a different approach to it.

699
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: And I think given the circumstances by which we got

700
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: into World War two, the US and the rest of

701
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: the free world, the winners of the Second World War,

702
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: built a world order that seemed to make sense and

703
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: built infrastructure across the globe to support that. The Chinese

704
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 2: see a different world order when we should be mindful

705
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 2: of that and understanding that. They don't see the dollar

706
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: as the mechanism by which we trade oil throughout the world.

707
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: They don't see the un conventional the loss of the

708
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: sea to be the way by which we conduct commerce

709
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: via the maritime environment around the world. They want it

710
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 2: all their way, which means they own the whole South

711
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: China Sea. It's not just out twelve miles from the

712
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: country or from their island. It's the whole shebang, and

713
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: there is you know, they're the keeper keepers of the rules,

714
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 2: so are they smart about this. I don't know I'm

715
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: ready to say that, but they're thoughtful about it, and

716
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: they have a different viewpoint than we do in the

717
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: United States. They have a different viewpoint than the free

718
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: world has, and they have a different viewpoint than most

719
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: of the world has, because we wouldn't all want to

720
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: live in a world orders that's run lock, stock and

721
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: burrow by the Chinese. But that's where they're trying to go.

722
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: You know, you look at the intelligence failures that took

723
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: place in hamas being able to carry out this attack.

724
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: Does that concern you at all? When Israel is now

725
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: waging this war in terms do that? Are they a

726
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: weaker standpoint than people might have originally thought. How capable

727
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: of military does Israel have?

728
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: Well, they have an enormously capable military, and I would

729
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 2: have told you ten days ago they have an enormously

730
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: capable intelligence apparatus. Say they got surprised here, and you know,

731
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 2: by definition that's a failure of intelligence. Excuse me. So

732
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: what matters is what they do next and how do

733
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: they realize how do they understand? Okay, where did we

734
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 2: go wrong? I think the early thinking is they relied

735
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: more on electronic intelligence less on human intelligence than they

736
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: have in the past, and Hamas was able to understand that,

737
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: figure it out and using you know, travel to places

738
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 2: like Turkey to have meetings, using messengers, you know, somebody

739
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 2: that gets on a motor scooter and takes a message

740
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: from one unit to another unit without any electronic transmission.

741
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 2: I think we're going to find and the Israelis are

742
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: going to find that's what caused the intelligence failure that

743
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: resulted in a successful attack by any measure, just like

744
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: we learned after nine to eleven. The Israelis will learn

745
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: from this and they'll be better off for it at

746
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: the end of the day, but difficult times ahead to

747
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: get to that point.

748
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess you could ask the same

749
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: question of you know, how do we miss nine to eleven? Right? So,

750
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, right now obviously the focus is just praying

751
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: for Israel and being victorious and you know, fighting these

752
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: terrorists who deserve nothing but death and talking about war.

753
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: What's you know so sad is you know, you look

754
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: at a lot of these you know, young men who

755
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: a lot of reservists being called up, who are are

756
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: then going to you know, I think we all have

757
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: a lot of friends and no people who have family

758
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: who you know, are part of the now you know,

759
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: going to be go fighting this war on behalf of Israel.

760
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: And so it's you know, I think sometimes and a

761
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: lot of this discussion there's you know, you were in

762
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: the military or advice admiral. You know, it's like I

763
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that there's

764
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: a lot of young men and women who are are

765
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: going to go and potentially lay down their life for

766
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 1: freedom and the freedom of Israel. And I it's really

767
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't be lost in the conversation either.

768
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: No, it shouldn't be And there's going to be more sacrifice,

769
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: a lot more sacrifice on the part of the Israeli people,

770
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: and we should now forget that. But every time I

771
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: get an opportunity to go visit Israel, I'm encouraged by

772
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: the commitment of the young people. And they have compulsory

773
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: military service or compulsory service of some kind, and many

774
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 2: of those folks end up in the military. They don't

775
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: see that as a burden. They see that as an honor,

776
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: and many of them, sadly are going to pay the

777
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: ultimate price for their sacrifice for the freedom for the

778
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: defense of Israel. We can't underscore the importance of their

779
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 2: sacrifice in any way, but I have every confidence that

780
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: every single Israeli soldier is going to do his or

781
00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: her duty.

782
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to leave us with before

783
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: we go?

784
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: I think the main point I would like to leave

785
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: is whether or not you feel like the Palestinian people

786
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 2: deserve a different reality than what they have today. It's

787
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: important to separate Palestinians from Hamas, it's important to separate

788
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: Palestinians on the West Bank from the Palestinian authority. So

789
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 2: there's a there's a lot of good Palestinians in the

790
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 2: world that are really poorly led, and so we want

791
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: to do what we can to make sure that at

792
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: the end of this particular fight there's a political outcome

793
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: that's different for the Palestinian people, that they're better led,

794
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: they're well led, and that's how you ultimately reduce the tensions,

795
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: reduce the conflicts over the long term. Now, there's a

796
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: military victory that needs to be done, and needs to

797
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: be one first, and I'm confident that the Israeli Defense

798
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: Forces will be able to do that. But support for

799
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: Palestine or the Palestinian cause or the Palestinian idea is

800
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: not the same as support for Hamas or Fatah or

801
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: any other terrorist organization that exists somewhere in today's Palestine.

802
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 1: Well, Sir, I always learned so much from you. Appreciate

803
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: you taking giving us so much of your time and

804
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: walking through all this. I really do appreciate it. Thank

805
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: you for your service to country, and then appreciate you

806
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: coming on. I really do.

807
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: Thanks Lisa, thank you so much for having me.

808
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: That was a vice Admiral John Miller. We appreciate him

809
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: taking the time to join the show, learn a lot

810
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: fro him and give us a lot of time, So

811
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. Well to thank you guys at home

812
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: every Monday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week.

813
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: When do I think John Cassio and my producer for

814
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: putting the show together. Until next time.