WEBVTT - Episode 10 - Unanswered Questions 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:13.480 BBC Studios. Hey everyone, it's Maggie. The usual warning before 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.120 we dive in. As you all know by now, this 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.599 is a series that deals with adult themes, and this 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.320 bonus episode of Hands Tied will include references to violence 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:26.920 and sex. So with that warning in mind, I'm really 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.920 excited to introduce my colleague and friend, the producer of 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:32.720 the series, Maggie Latham. 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.800 Hi Maggie, Hi Maggie, how are you. I'm good. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.279 Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:40.600 I really appreciate it. 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:42.599 It's great to catch up with you. And here's all 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:43.400 the latest. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:52.200 So yeah to Maggie's there's American Maggie and then British Maggie. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.880 And you know, we spend a lot of time immersing 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.080 ourselves in the story and also getting a glimpse into 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.760 Lizz's world and what she's been through. But now that 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.960 we find ourselves at the end, there are still things 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.759 that we can't stop thinking about. Things people told us, 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.280 details we could only touch on, and conversations that didn't 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.240 make it into the series. You know, Maggie, I know 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.040 you had a lot of conversations with people and sometimes 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.880 it just doesn't work out for a variety of reasons. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.800 They either don't want to talk or scheduling doesn't work out. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.040 But Maggie, you actually talked to one of the cops 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.800 at the heart of the story, right, Yeah. 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.679 I did. I tried to speak to him through the 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.120 Paris County Sheriff's Office press office, because Sogeant Dusa is 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.800 still employed. He's still working there, and they said, oh, yeah, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.040 we'll reach out to him, and then one evening he 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.520 wrung me up and we had a sort of forty 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.040 minute chat. He didn't want to be interviewed on microphone, 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.480 which is a real shame, but what he told me 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.520 during that phone call was really really interesting. 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.640 Before we get into the like nitty gritty of everything 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.920 you talked about, just remind us who is sergeant do 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:05.280 you say? 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:12.639 Yeah? So, he and Detective Carousel were the lead detectives. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:17.440 They were bodies, They knew each other since childhood, and 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.720 they both ended up working for Harris County Homicide Unit. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.919 And before I spoke to him, I've done quite a 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.680 lot of research into the case, and one of the 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.760 stories that came up was that he nearly died after 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:37.320 being goreed by a bull on his farm, and he 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.400 was sort of did make light of it and joked about, 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.960 you know, all the near death experiences he had had 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.320 as a cop, but actually the nearest he got to 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.919 death was on his own farm. But yeah, it was 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.160 a really sort of severe injury, and think he was 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:57.040 really he was lucky to survive. So, you know, he 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:02.800 was a veteran detective, and he was quite open about 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.639 talking about the case, and we had quite a long 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.080 phone call about it, and I was really hoping that 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.160 he would agree to an interview. But after the phone call, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:11.760 he didn't want to do anything else. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.040 If you remember, like what were his versions of events 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:16.519 that night. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.560 Well, to be fair to him, he hadn't kind of 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.000 restudied the file or gone back through his notes or 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.880 anything like that, so he was kind of talking off 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.000 the top of his head. But I mean, he was 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:33.560 in absolutely no doubt that Sandra was guilty. He hadn't 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.400 kind of thought back over the years or maybe she 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.280 didn't do it, or this little thing has been niggling 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:40.800 away in the back of my head. There was nothing 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:45.000 like that at all. He had a very sort of 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:51.160 clear characterization of Jim and Sandy that Jim was sort 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.960 of ambitious, He was really healthy. He was. I don't 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:57.800 know if you remember this, but we came across this 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.760 a few times, that Jim was really into his health, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:06.800 reducing his diet, he liked to go jogging, and he 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:11.280 was really fit. But according to Duce Sandy, he said, 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.360 this is his words, had let herself go. As we know, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.200 she had a lot of health conditions, but the trouble 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.320 had been building up in their marriage, this is what 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.480 Dusau was saying, and Jim had chosen their thirty second 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:30.240 wedding anniversary to basically talk about their future, that he 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.240 was planning to leave her or have a break, and 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.719 that she knew that this was coming. She knew that 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.880 it was on the cards, So the murder wasn't necessarily 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.640 spur of the moment thing because she was sort of 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:47.680 prepared for it. So that's what he said, which was 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.200 surprising to me because having been through all the court transcripts, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.840 people that were closest to the Melgars gave evidence in 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.400 courtant there wasn't one single person that said anything about 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.680 their marriage being unhappy. But I think what Dousay was 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.240 saying is that nobody really knows what goes on in 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.599 a relationship other than the two people involved. That was 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.000 the sort of tenre of what he was saying. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.160 Yeah, I find that narrative so interesting, and I wonder 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.000 if you know, part of what kind of makes people 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.520 interested in this case too, is just how the crime 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.640 scene was found. You know, it was a romantic evening, 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.560 their wedding anniversary. There was still that strawberry and the 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.560 tub of cream on the side of the jacuzzi, And 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.600 it seems to me that in a lot of the narratives, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.479 and I think in this series we talked a lot 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:44.640 about the power of storytelling and how the prosecution story 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:49.120 and sort of do Say story too, created this narrative 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:54.040 of there was this sort of like sexual undertone to things, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:54.880 and that. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.240 I thought that was really interesting that the police found 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.479 sex toys under the pillow in the bedroom. Unsergeant du 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.080 Say's theory was that, you know, he kind of painted 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.839 Sandy's a bit of a sex siren, that she'd kind 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.920 of lured Jim into this promise of sex, got him 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:15.679 naked and was doing this seductive dance, so to speak, 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.560 and then she sort of slushed his throat from behind, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.760 and that was again played out in the trial. So 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.720 that's what he repeated that that's what he thought what happened. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.520 Yeah, it was very much in the trial, which I 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:30.799 think is a perfect segue for us to start talking 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.919 about the jury. And as you know better than anyone else, Maggie, 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.480 we tried really hard to speak to the twelve jurors 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.080 who were on the case, you know, but there were 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:45.760 a lot of wrong numbers, unanswered calls, messages ignored. But 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.800 actually one of the people who we reached out to 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.680 just got back in touch with us, and yeah, I 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:57.960 talked to him yesterday. Oh yeah, he thinks that they 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.560 came to the right verdict. But the the first thing 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.040 he said to me is that he really wanted to 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.720 believe that Sandy was innocent, and then when the actual 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.440 deliberation happened, he didn't want to give any sort of sentence. 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:13.880 He wanted to see if there was any way that 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.720 there could be a mistrial. Like he felt really really 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:22.080 bad putting a number to a prison sentence. You know. 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.600 I asked what the most compelling evidence for him was, 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.360 and you know, he thought the most suspect thing was 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.840 the jacuzzie and the jacuzzi water. That picture was really 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.000 really laser focus for him, where he didn't think that 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.080 if people were sitting in a bathtub that the water 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.080 would be that clear, if they were in the tub 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.960 for that long, if they, you know, did all of 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.360 the activities that they mentioned in that night, to him, 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.640 wouldn't the bath water be dirty? When this juror was 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.840 looking at the photo while it was presented in court, 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.040 to him it felt suspect. I believe the picture that 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.360 he's talking about could be the picture that we see 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.800 where we see the clear bathwater and then at the 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.240 bottom there's a knife. And you know, we didn't talk 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.280 for super long because he was like en route to 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.400 another job, and so I was talking to him while 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.000 he was in the car. But the main thing also 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.360 that he said, which I know we cover in the story, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.000 is that he wonders if he would have changed his 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.840 mind if Sandy took the stand. Yeah, but you know, 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:26.720 then in the same breath, he was like, but that 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.000 could also go the opposite way, because when the prosecution 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.199 grilled her like it could have made her seem even 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.480 more suspect. So he was like, it's an impossible decision 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.840 to make. And I think the juror Aaron Day said 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.760 this too when I spoke to him, but I think 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.280 it's a case that really stays with them. He thinks 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.480 about it all the time, and he said that his 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.960 girlfriend really loves true crime TV shows, and he says, 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.040 sometimes this case comes up and he has to kind of, 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:56.760 you know, relive it. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.640 Yeah, And I suppose from Julie's point of vie, it's interesting, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.520 isn't it that they would think that would it have 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.880 made a difference if Sandy had taken the stand. But 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.160 I think looking at, you know, the police interview that 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.520 we watched them listen to multiple times, and one of 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.560 her friends said this to me, she was I think 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.559 it was Tommy said she was so worried about how 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.720 she would come across. She's shy, and she doesn't come 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.760 across as a kind of warm person, especially in that 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:29.400 really high stakes, intense period that you know when you're 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.760 on the stand. So I don't know if that would 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.079 have helped. Yeah, I really don't know that. 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.480 I mean, it's you'll drive yourself mad speculating. And I 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.600 know Max Screst, Sandy's defense attorney, thinks about that all 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.280 the time and it really weighs on him. But I 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.280 think it kind of goes back to what I was 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.679 talking about with Amanda is we do have these preconceived 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.400 notions of how we expect people to act in stressful situations, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.000 especially women. In a lot of ways, we expect them 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.520 to be crying in a certain way, to be showing 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.840 grief in a certain way, and I think we kind 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.120 of see that narrative of when people don't fit into 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:13.520 what we believe is accurate presentation of grief, of guilt, 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.319 of shame, then we start to develop different ideas on 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.520 what that could be, and that that could, as you 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.800 were saying, could have happened with sandyas people could read into, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.640 you know, her shyness as something else, or it's impossible 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.000 to know what would have happened. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.160 Yeah, totally, did you ever I was really keen to 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:35.800 speak to a woman. I mean, I don't know if 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.800 it would necessarily make any difference, but I just I'd 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.480 really like to have a take from female Jura because 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.959 I just wonder if obviously it was a unanimous verdict, 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.520 but I just wonder if that if their thoughts over 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.120 the years would have changed at all, or you know, yeah, 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:54.760 that it had any other thoughts. 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.680 It's a great question, and unfortunately, the only people who 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.280 picked up or called me back. Were men. Yeah, But 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.040 it's a really interesting question, and I think that perspective 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:11.480 would have been really interesting to hear. But in every 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.600 person I've talked to, I do hear that they did 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.079 feel like it was a very serious thing that they 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.880 were deciding, depending on how you feel about the verdict 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.360 that they reached. I did feel that each one of 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.560 them they understood that this was a person's life, They 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.720 understood that this was a person's family, but you know, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.080 they made the decision based on the evidence that they 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:40.400 thought was most likely. So we're going to take a 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.720 quick break after which we're going to talk about something 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.000 that was really central to both Jim and Sandy's lives and, 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.360 according to her defense team, one of the reasons why 0:11:49.440 --> 0:12:04.920 she's in prison now. So another really huge part of 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:06.840 the story that we didn't really get to talk a 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.720 whole lot about, but it was another thing that was 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.719 used throughout the trial was Sandy and Jim's religion. They 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.200 were both Jehovah's witnesses. For me, when we first started, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.920 the only thing I really knew about Jehovah's witnesses that 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:26.040 they prophetized from door to door and that they don't 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:32.560 celebrate holidays, Christmas, Birthdays, Halloween. So I'd love to just 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.800 have a really top level understanding of the core beliefs 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.360 for a Jehovah's witness. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.360 Well, Jehovah's witnesses. They believe in God, that God is 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.199 called Jehovah, and they follow the teachings of the Bible. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.000 They believe that we're living in the end of days 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.479 and that only a chosen few will be resurrected. So basically, 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.559 death is not the end. Death is like a deep 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.280 sleep awaiting resurrection. And this was relevant in the trial. 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.679 How did how did Jim and Sandy become Jehovah's witnesses 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.720 because neither Jim or Sandy were brought up in that religion, right. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:15.800 No, that's right. They converted through cold call. They were interested, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.440 they were both open to it, and they were adults 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:20.320 when they converted. 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.080 So when you say cold call, it was literally someone 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:24.040 knocking on their door. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.400 Yeah, yeah, just like we've probably all had the Jehovah's 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.520 witness knocking on our door. But yeah, Sandy and Jim 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.680 went door to door evangelizing, just like other Jehovah's witnesses. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.880 But I think that when Sandy got ill, she couldn't 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.439 do it anymore, so she sort of didn't didn't go, 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:43.360 but Jim carried on. 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.320 And do you know how you know, being a part 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.360 of the Jehovah's Witnesses, how that played a day to 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.520 day role in the Melgar's life. 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.280 Yeah. I think religion was a really big part of 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:01.320 their lives from what I think it was. Diana, Sandy's cousin, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.320 told me that because she lived with them for a 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.360 bit and went to some Bible study classes with them. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.000 But all their friends were Jehovah's Witnesses. They went to 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:15.559 Bible study classes quite often, several times a week. Jim 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.840 was an elder in the congregation, which is a basically 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.080 a sort of you know, one of the sort of 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:27.240 mature people that would help sort out problems within that congregation. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.200 So he was had quite a lot of status within 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.440 the church. Yeah, I think. I mean Sandy and Tammy, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.440 who we interviewed, both met at church. I'm not sure 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.600 all Sandy's friends were members of congregation. I'm sure she 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.440 did have I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.200 sure that Tammy had friends outside that. But they were 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.360 really really involved and went to lots of parties and celebrations. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.000 There were lots of photo shown in court of celebration 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.600 days that they went to with their friends from the church. 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:00.920 Yeah. 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.160 I think it was really central to their life. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.080 And just a reminder, Tammy is Sandy's friend who saw 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.360 her right after the interrogation. She was the one who 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.600 was listening to the news report and then realized that 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.480 that was Sandy's, that she knew them, and she really 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.560 stuck by Sandy throughout that whole process. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.520 Yeah, and still goes to see her, still goes to 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:25.600 see her in prison. Yeah. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:30.000 Yeah, So how was their religion used in the court case. 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.600 It's interesting actually remembering what Tammy said because she said 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:41.000 religion it was totally irrelevant to what happened to Jim's death, 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:46.960 but it became an important part of the narrative built 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:52.160 by the prosecution to other Sandy. Well, that's definitely what 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.280 the Innocence Project of Texas would say. So, one of 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.360 Sandy's close friends was put on the stand as a witness, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.800 and the prosecution asked her lots of questions about being 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.520 a Jehovah's witness and basically just sort of bullet pointed 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.960 all these things that Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in that. 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.680 Lots of other people, do you know Christmas? You don't 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.720 believe in Christmas, you don't believe in birthdays, you don't 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.400 believe in Easter. So I think the well, definitely, the 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.120 defense's point was A it wasn't relevant, and B it 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.160 was used to make samdy seem unsympathetic to portray as 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:37.200 an unsympathetic, different, other type of person to the jury. 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.800 So she's different to ask, therefore she's guilty. 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.640 So I just want to read this one quote from 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.160 Colleen Barnett's closing remarks, who was the prosecution attorney in 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.160 the court case, and she said, I didn't really realize 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.000 the depth of the religious issue because I didn't know 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.560 that much about Jehovah's witnesses, and I didn't know that 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.200 Jehovah witnesses didn't allow you to divorce. You cannot divorce 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.400 unless someone is cheating, and it's very clear that Jamie 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.280 was not that guy. If I get divorced, I get 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.480 ostracized and I can't talk with my friends. But if 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.000 I kill him and nobody finds out, I'm not ostracized 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.359 and he's just asleep. It's really interesting that she says 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.200 this last thing of he's just asleep, right, because that 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.400 does directly play into some of the things that we've 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.840 learned about Jehovah's witnesses and their beliefs, right. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:33.120 Yeah, So this whole question of divorce is really interesting. 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.719 And I think that according to the written word of 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.359 Jehovah's Witnesses and what it says on the website, because 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.840 I did go back to them and check about this, 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.160 and they said that the only scriptural grounds for divorce 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.840 is sexual immorality. The Bible encourages marriage mates to stay 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:57.200 together even under less than ideal circumstances. Nevertheless, in extreme 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.840 situations such as extreme physical vs. Islands, some Christians have 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.720 decided to separate from a marriage mate. But it's that 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.920 what it says on paper. And actually that doesn't mean 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.680 that you'd actually murder your spouse instead. 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:16.360 Yeah, And I mean, you know, you talked to both 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.280 Liz and Tammy, and what did they say, as you know, 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.080 Tammy's still are practicing Jehovah's Witnesses, and Liz was. 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.399 Yeah, Tommy said, she knows people who are divorced. She 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.800 knows people who were in the religion who divorced. So 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.239 people don't stay together through thick and thin, or just 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.160 in cases of extreme physical abuse. So that's the reality 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:38.200 is a bit different. 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.199 Always, is what she said. The reality is always different 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:46.480 for so many things. Yeah, you know, this was one 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.880 thing that when I was writing to Sandy that I 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.119 was curious to hear if if she's still practicing, she 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.239 still is a Jehovah's witness, And she did tell me 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.200 that it is something that gives her strength while she's 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.560 in prison. I know Liz said the same thing, that 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.480 her faith is something that does keep her going. And 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.960 you know you talked to Tammy about this too. 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.560 Yeah, so I talked to Tummy about Sandy's faith and 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:11.639 this is what she told me. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.000 I do believe that Sandy would say her faith is 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.280 what's keeping her going in prison. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:18.520 She is. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.399 I know for a fact that if anyone has a 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.240 Bible question, they'll say, oh, I don't know, go ask 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:25.199 miss Sandy. She'll know. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:32.040 So Also, Tummy said that after Jim died, her and 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.800 Sandy would talk about it a lot, and obviously Sandy was, 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.680 from Tommy's point of view, really really distraught. But one 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.760 thing that gave a comfort was knowing that she would 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.160 see Jim again in the resurrection, knowing that that wasn't 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:48.119 the end, and that aspect of her faith really really 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.000 helped her. 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.360 We're going to take another quick break and when we're back, 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.480 Maggie and I are going to talk about the defenses 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:11.200 theory on what happened that night and December welcome back. 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:13.920 So far, we've heard quite a bit about the prosecution's 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.040 argument and what the jury made of it, but I 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.560 also want to talk to you about what Sandy's legal 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.960 team believe happened that Jim was killed and a home 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.760 invasion gone wrong. Now, Maggie, I know you've done a 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.120 ton of research into this, more than we could possibly 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.840 fit into the series, and I'm sure you know everyone 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.760 who's listening already knows. But what's a home invasion? 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.399 Yeah, we don't have this phrase in the UK, so 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:43.960 it was a new one on me. But it's basically 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.200 a robbery in a house when people are at home. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.960 So there's people in the house. What do you call 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.880 them burglaries? Well, there's no specific word because a burglary 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.600 could be an empty house. Yeah, we haven't got a 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:57.120 word for that. 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.680 So interesting, but I'm curious to hear little bit about 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.280 some of the people that you talked to who were 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.040 on the ground during this time. 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.800 Yeah, I mean, I started off by going through all 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.399 the archive of the Houston Chronicle, which is like the 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.880 big regional paper, all the old stories that they covered 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:19.520 at the time of the just the amount of home invasions. 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:24.560 There were so many headlines about people dying in home invasions, 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:29.280 people being shot in home invasions, home invasion gangs targeting 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:35.520 residents who kept cash at home. There was just stacks 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:40.359 of them. And through that I found Mike Glenn, who 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.800 is a veteran reporter. He worked on the Houston Chronicle 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.280 for twenty years. He's now the Pentagon reporter for the 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.800 Washington Times, and he was in Houston when Jim was murdered. 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.440 And what he told me was really illuminating. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.040 Yeah, let's hear a little bit of your conversation with 0:21:58.160 --> 0:21:59.159 Mike Glenn, the reporter. 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.600 I mean, it's a rough town. It has murders and 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.600 crime and break ins, and there are lots of guns 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.240 in the city. It's a rough town. It can be. 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.120 Yeah, So it kept you very busy as a crime reporter. 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.080 I mean, and really that's all I did, you know, 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.240 for almost twenty years is covering crime, and you know, 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.040 there was so much of it that you would just 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:26.240 go from scene to scene to scene. People would ask 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.359 me how many like dead bodies quote unquote have you 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:31.879 seen on the job, And I said, I stopped counting. 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.280 I really, I have no idea how many murder scenes 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.280 or murder victims I've seen. I mean murder victims, car fatalities, 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:39.920 that sort of thing. 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:41.480 So how did it work? 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:41.639 Then? 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:43.600 Do you do you get tipped off by the police. 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.439 Did you listen to police radio and then turn up 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:46.320 at the house. 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.040 A lot of police radio. I'd multiple scanners. I had 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.680 scanners in my car, I had scanners in my office, 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:56.080 and I would hear something going on and I would, 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.040 you know, jump in my car and rush down. That 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.960 was my mindset. You know, you get there first, and 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:05.119 you get there as fast as you can because that's 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.639 where most of the information comes in the first moments 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.560