1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: BBC Studios. Hey everyone, it's Maggie. The usual warning before 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: we dive in. As you all know by now, this 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: is a series that deals with adult themes, and this 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: bonus episode of Hands Tied will include references to violence 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: and sex. So with that warning in mind, I'm really 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: excited to introduce my colleague and friend, the producer of 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: the series, Maggie Latham. 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: Hi Maggie, Hi Maggie, how are you. I'm good. 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 2: It's great to catch up with you. And here's all 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: the latest. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: So yeah to Maggie's there's American Maggie and then British Maggie. 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: And you know, we spend a lot of time immersing 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: ourselves in the story and also getting a glimpse into 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Lizz's world and what she's been through. But now that 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: we find ourselves at the end, there are still things 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: that we can't stop thinking about. Things people told us, 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: details we could only touch on, and conversations that didn't 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: make it into the series. You know, Maggie, I know 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: you had a lot of conversations with people and sometimes 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: it just doesn't work out for a variety of reasons. 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: They either don't want to talk or scheduling doesn't work out. 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: But Maggie, you actually talked to one of the cops 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: at the heart of the story, right, Yeah. 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: I did. I tried to speak to him through the 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: Paris County Sheriff's Office press office, because Sogeant Dusa is 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: still employed. He's still working there, and they said, oh, yeah, 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: we'll reach out to him, and then one evening he 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: wrung me up and we had a sort of forty 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: minute chat. He didn't want to be interviewed on microphone, 32 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: which is a real shame, but what he told me 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: during that phone call was really really interesting. 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Before we get into the like nitty gritty of everything 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: you talked about, just remind us who is sergeant do 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: you say? 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: Yeah? So, he and Detective Carousel were the lead detectives. 38 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: They were bodies, They knew each other since childhood, and 39 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: they both ended up working for Harris County Homicide Unit. 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: And before I spoke to him, I've done quite a 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 2: lot of research into the case, and one of the 42 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: stories that came up was that he nearly died after 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: being goreed by a bull on his farm, and he 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: was sort of did make light of it and joked about, 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: you know, all the near death experiences he had had 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: as a cop, but actually the nearest he got to 47 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: death was on his own farm. But yeah, it was 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: a really sort of severe injury, and think he was 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: really he was lucky to survive. So, you know, he 50 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: was a veteran detective, and he was quite open about 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 2: talking about the case, and we had quite a long 52 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: phone call about it, and I was really hoping that 53 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: he would agree to an interview. But after the phone call, 54 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: he didn't want to do anything else. 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: If you remember, like what were his versions of events 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: that night. 57 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: Well, to be fair to him, he hadn't kind of 58 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: restudied the file or gone back through his notes or 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: anything like that, so he was kind of talking off 60 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: the top of his head. But I mean, he was 61 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: in absolutely no doubt that Sandra was guilty. He hadn't 62 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: kind of thought back over the years or maybe she 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: didn't do it, or this little thing has been niggling 64 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: away in the back of my head. There was nothing 65 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: like that at all. He had a very sort of 66 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: clear characterization of Jim and Sandy that Jim was sort 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: of ambitious, He was really healthy. He was. I don't 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: know if you remember this, but we came across this 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: a few times, that Jim was really into his health, 70 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: reducing his diet, he liked to go jogging, and he 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: was really fit. But according to Duce Sandy, he said, 72 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: this is his words, had let herself go. As we know, 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: she had a lot of health conditions, but the trouble 74 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: had been building up in their marriage, this is what 75 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: Dusau was saying, and Jim had chosen their thirty second 76 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: wedding anniversary to basically talk about their future, that he 77 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: was planning to leave her or have a break, and 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: that she knew that this was coming. She knew that 79 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: it was on the cards, So the murder wasn't necessarily 80 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: spur of the moment thing because she was sort of 81 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: prepared for it. So that's what he said, which was 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: surprising to me because having been through all the court transcripts, 83 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: people that were closest to the Melgars gave evidence in 84 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: courtant there wasn't one single person that said anything about 85 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: their marriage being unhappy. But I think what Dousay was 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: saying is that nobody really knows what goes on in 87 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: a relationship other than the two people involved. That was 88 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: the sort of tenre of what he was saying. 89 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that narrative so interesting, and I wonder 90 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: if you know, part of what kind of makes people 91 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: interested in this case too, is just how the crime 92 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: scene was found. You know, it was a romantic evening, 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: their wedding anniversary. There was still that strawberry and the 94 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: tub of cream on the side of the jacuzzi, And 95 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: it seems to me that in a lot of the narratives, 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: and I think in this series we talked a lot 97 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: about the power of storytelling and how the prosecution story 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: and sort of do Say story too, created this narrative 99 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: of there was this sort of like sexual undertone to things, 100 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: and that. 101 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting that the police found 102 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: sex toys under the pillow in the bedroom. Unsergeant du 103 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: Say's theory was that, you know, he kind of painted 104 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: Sandy's a bit of a sex siren, that she'd kind 105 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: of lured Jim into this promise of sex, got him 106 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 2: naked and was doing this seductive dance, so to speak, 107 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: and then she sort of slushed his throat from behind, 108 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: and that was again played out in the trial. So 109 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 2: that's what he repeated that that's what he thought what happened. 110 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very much in the trial, which I 111 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: think is a perfect segue for us to start talking 112 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: about the jury. And as you know better than anyone else, Maggie, 113 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: we tried really hard to speak to the twelve jurors 114 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: who were on the case, you know, but there were 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: a lot of wrong numbers, unanswered calls, messages ignored. But 116 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: actually one of the people who we reached out to 117 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: just got back in touch with us, and yeah, I 118 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: talked to him yesterday. Oh yeah, he thinks that they 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: came to the right verdict. But the the first thing 120 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: he said to me is that he really wanted to 121 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: believe that Sandy was innocent, and then when the actual 122 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: deliberation happened, he didn't want to give any sort of sentence. 123 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: He wanted to see if there was any way that 124 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: there could be a mistrial. Like he felt really really 125 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: bad putting a number to a prison sentence. You know. 126 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: I asked what the most compelling evidence for him was, 127 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: and you know, he thought the most suspect thing was 128 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: the jacuzzie and the jacuzzi water. That picture was really 129 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: really laser focus for him, where he didn't think that 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: if people were sitting in a bathtub that the water 131 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: would be that clear, if they were in the tub 132 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: for that long, if they, you know, did all of 133 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: the activities that they mentioned in that night, to him, 134 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't the bath water be dirty? When this juror was 135 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: looking at the photo while it was presented in court, 136 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: to him it felt suspect. I believe the picture that 137 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: he's talking about could be the picture that we see 138 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: where we see the clear bathwater and then at the 139 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: bottom there's a knife. And you know, we didn't talk 140 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: for super long because he was like en route to 141 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: another job, and so I was talking to him while 142 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: he was in the car. But the main thing also 143 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: that he said, which I know we cover in the story, 144 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: is that he wonders if he would have changed his 145 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: mind if Sandy took the stand. Yeah, but you know, 146 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: then in the same breath, he was like, but that 147 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: could also go the opposite way, because when the prosecution 148 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: grilled her like it could have made her seem even 149 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: more suspect. So he was like, it's an impossible decision 150 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: to make. And I think the juror Aaron Day said 151 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: this too when I spoke to him, but I think 152 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: it's a case that really stays with them. He thinks 153 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: about it all the time, and he said that his 154 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: girlfriend really loves true crime TV shows, and he says, 155 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: sometimes this case comes up and he has to kind of, 156 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: you know, relive it. 157 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I suppose from Julie's point of vie, it's interesting, 158 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: isn't it that they would think that would it have 159 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: made a difference if Sandy had taken the stand. But 160 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: I think looking at, you know, the police interview that 161 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: we watched them listen to multiple times, and one of 162 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: her friends said this to me, she was I think 163 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: it was Tommy said she was so worried about how 164 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: she would come across. She's shy, and she doesn't come 165 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: across as a kind of warm person, especially in that 166 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: really high stakes, intense period that you know when you're 167 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: on the stand. So I don't know if that would 168 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 2: have helped. Yeah, I really don't know that. 169 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's you'll drive yourself mad speculating. And I 170 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: know Max Screst, Sandy's defense attorney, thinks about that all 171 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: the time and it really weighs on him. But I 172 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: think it kind of goes back to what I was 173 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: talking about with Amanda is we do have these preconceived 174 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: notions of how we expect people to act in stressful situations, 175 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: especially women. In a lot of ways, we expect them 176 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: to be crying in a certain way, to be showing 177 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: grief in a certain way, and I think we kind 178 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: of see that narrative of when people don't fit into 179 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: what we believe is accurate presentation of grief, of guilt, 180 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: of shame, then we start to develop different ideas on 181 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: what that could be, and that that could, as you 182 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: were saying, could have happened with sandyas people could read into, 183 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, her shyness as something else, or it's impossible 184 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: to know what would have happened. 185 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, did you ever I was really keen to 186 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: speak to a woman. I mean, I don't know if 187 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: it would necessarily make any difference, but I just I'd 188 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: really like to have a take from female Jura because 189 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 2: I just wonder if obviously it was a unanimous verdict, 190 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: but I just wonder if that if their thoughts over 191 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: the years would have changed at all, or you know, yeah, 192 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: that it had any other thoughts. 193 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: It's a great question, and unfortunately, the only people who 194 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: picked up or called me back. Were men. Yeah, But 195 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting question, and I think that perspective 196 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: would have been really interesting to hear. But in every 197 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: person I've talked to, I do hear that they did 198 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: feel like it was a very serious thing that they 199 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: were deciding, depending on how you feel about the verdict 200 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: that they reached. I did feel that each one of 201 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: them they understood that this was a person's life, They 202 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: understood that this was a person's family, but you know, 203 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: they made the decision based on the evidence that they 204 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: thought was most likely. So we're going to take a 205 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: quick break after which we're going to talk about something 206 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: that was really central to both Jim and Sandy's lives and, 207 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: according to her defense team, one of the reasons why 208 00:11:49,440 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: she's in prison now. So another really huge part of 209 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: the story that we didn't really get to talk a 210 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: whole lot about, but it was another thing that was 211 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: used throughout the trial was Sandy and Jim's religion. They 212 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: were both Jehovah's witnesses. For me, when we first started, 213 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the only thing I really knew about Jehovah's witnesses that 214 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: they prophetized from door to door and that they don't 215 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: celebrate holidays, Christmas, Birthdays, Halloween. So I'd love to just 216 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: have a really top level understanding of the core beliefs 217 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: for a Jehovah's witness. 218 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: Well, Jehovah's witnesses. They believe in God, that God is 219 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: called Jehovah, and they follow the teachings of the Bible. 220 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: They believe that we're living in the end of days 221 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,479 Speaker 2: and that only a chosen few will be resurrected. So basically, 222 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 2: death is not the end. Death is like a deep 223 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: sleep awaiting resurrection. And this was relevant in the trial. 224 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: How did how did Jim and Sandy become Jehovah's witnesses 225 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: because neither Jim or Sandy were brought up in that religion, right. 226 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: No, that's right. They converted through cold call. They were interested, 227 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: they were both open to it, and they were adults 228 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 2: when they converted. 229 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: So when you say cold call, it was literally someone 230 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: knocking on their door. 231 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just like we've probably all had the Jehovah's 232 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: witness knocking on our door. But yeah, Sandy and Jim 233 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: went door to door evangelizing, just like other Jehovah's witnesses. 234 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: But I think that when Sandy got ill, she couldn't 235 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 2: do it anymore, so she sort of didn't didn't go, 236 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: but Jim carried on. 237 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: And do you know how you know, being a part 238 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: of the Jehovah's Witnesses, how that played a day to 239 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: day role in the Melgar's life. 240 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think religion was a really big part of 241 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: their lives from what I think it was. Diana, Sandy's cousin, 242 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 2: told me that because she lived with them for a 243 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: bit and went to some Bible study classes with them. 244 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: But all their friends were Jehovah's Witnesses. They went to 245 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: Bible study classes quite often, several times a week. Jim 246 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: was an elder in the congregation, which is a basically 247 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: a sort of you know, one of the sort of 248 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: mature people that would help sort out problems within that congregation. 249 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: So he was had quite a lot of status within 250 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: the church. Yeah, I think. I mean Sandy and Tammy, 251 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: who we interviewed, both met at church. I'm not sure 252 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: all Sandy's friends were members of congregation. I'm sure she 253 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: did have I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty 254 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: sure that Tammy had friends outside that. But they were 255 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: really really involved and went to lots of parties and celebrations. 256 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: There were lots of photo shown in court of celebration 257 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: days that they went to with their friends from the church. 258 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 259 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: I think it was really central to their life. 260 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: And just a reminder, Tammy is Sandy's friend who saw 261 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: her right after the interrogation. She was the one who 262 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: was listening to the news report and then realized that 263 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: that was Sandy's, that she knew them, and she really 264 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: stuck by Sandy throughout that whole process. 265 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and still goes to see her, still goes to 266 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: see her in prison. Yeah. 267 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So how was their religion used in the court case. 268 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: It's interesting actually remembering what Tammy said because she said 269 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: religion it was totally irrelevant to what happened to Jim's death, 270 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: but it became an important part of the narrative built 271 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: by the prosecution to other Sandy. Well, that's definitely what 272 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: the Innocence Project of Texas would say. So, one of 273 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: Sandy's close friends was put on the stand as a witness, 274 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: and the prosecution asked her lots of questions about being 275 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: a Jehovah's witness and basically just sort of bullet pointed 276 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: all these things that Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in that. 277 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: Lots of other people, do you know Christmas? You don't 278 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: believe in Christmas, you don't believe in birthdays, you don't 279 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: believe in Easter. So I think the well, definitely, the 280 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: defense's point was A it wasn't relevant, and B it 281 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: was used to make samdy seem unsympathetic to portray as 282 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: an unsympathetic, different, other type of person to the jury. 283 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: So she's different to ask, therefore she's guilty. 284 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: So I just want to read this one quote from 285 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: Colleen Barnett's closing remarks, who was the prosecution attorney in 286 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: the court case, and she said, I didn't really realize 287 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: the depth of the religious issue because I didn't know 288 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: that much about Jehovah's witnesses, and I didn't know that 289 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: Jehovah witnesses didn't allow you to divorce. You cannot divorce 290 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: unless someone is cheating, and it's very clear that Jamie 291 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: was not that guy. If I get divorced, I get 292 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: ostracized and I can't talk with my friends. But if 293 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: I kill him and nobody finds out, I'm not ostracized 294 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: and he's just asleep. It's really interesting that she says 295 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: this last thing of he's just asleep, right, because that 296 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: does directly play into some of the things that we've 297 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: learned about Jehovah's witnesses and their beliefs, right. 298 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this whole question of divorce is really interesting. 299 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 2: And I think that according to the written word of 300 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witnesses and what it says on the website, because 301 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: I did go back to them and check about this, 302 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: and they said that the only scriptural grounds for divorce 303 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: is sexual immorality. The Bible encourages marriage mates to stay 304 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 2: together even under less than ideal circumstances. Nevertheless, in extreme 305 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: situations such as extreme physical vs. Islands, some Christians have 306 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: decided to separate from a marriage mate. But it's that 307 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: what it says on paper. And actually that doesn't mean 308 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: that you'd actually murder your spouse instead. 309 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, you know, you talked to both 310 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: Liz and Tammy, and what did they say, as you know, 311 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: Tammy's still are practicing Jehovah's Witnesses, and Liz was. 312 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Tommy said, she knows people who are divorced. She 313 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: knows people who were in the religion who divorced. So 314 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 2: people don't stay together through thick and thin, or just 315 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: in cases of extreme physical abuse. So that's the reality 316 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: is a bit different. 317 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: Always, is what she said. The reality is always different 318 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: for so many things. Yeah, you know, this was one 319 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: thing that when I was writing to Sandy that I 320 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: was curious to hear if if she's still practicing, she 321 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,239 Speaker 1: still is a Jehovah's witness, And she did tell me 322 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: that it is something that gives her strength while she's 323 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: in prison. I know Liz said the same thing, that 324 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: her faith is something that does keep her going. And 325 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: you know you talked to Tammy about this too. 326 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I talked to Tummy about Sandy's faith and 327 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: this is what she told me. 328 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 4: I do believe that Sandy would say her faith is 329 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 4: what's keeping her going in prison. 330 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: She is. 331 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 4: I know for a fact that if anyone has a 332 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: Bible question, they'll say, oh, I don't know, go ask 333 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 4: miss Sandy. She'll know. 334 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: So Also, Tummy said that after Jim died, her and 335 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: Sandy would talk about it a lot, and obviously Sandy was, 336 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: from Tommy's point of view, really really distraught. But one 337 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: thing that gave a comfort was knowing that she would 338 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: see Jim again in the resurrection, knowing that that wasn't 339 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: the end, and that aspect of her faith really really 340 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: helped her. 341 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: We're going to take another quick break and when we're back, 342 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: Maggie and I are going to talk about the defenses 343 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: theory on what happened that night and December welcome back. 344 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: So far, we've heard quite a bit about the prosecution's 345 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: argument and what the jury made of it, but I 346 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: also want to talk to you about what Sandy's legal 347 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: team believe happened that Jim was killed and a home 348 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: invasion gone wrong. Now, Maggie, I know you've done a 349 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: ton of research into this, more than we could possibly 350 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: fit into the series, and I'm sure you know everyone 351 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: who's listening already knows. But what's a home invasion? 352 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have this phrase in the UK, so 353 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: it was a new one on me. But it's basically 354 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: a robbery in a house when people are at home. 355 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: So there's people in the house. What do you call 356 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: them burglaries? Well, there's no specific word because a burglary 357 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: could be an empty house. Yeah, we haven't got a 358 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 2: word for that. 359 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: So interesting, but I'm curious to hear little bit about 360 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: some of the people that you talked to who were 361 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: on the ground during this time. 362 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I started off by going through all 363 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: the archive of the Houston Chronicle, which is like the 364 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: big regional paper, all the old stories that they covered 365 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: at the time of the just the amount of home invasions. 366 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: There were so many headlines about people dying in home invasions, 367 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: people being shot in home invasions, home invasion gangs targeting 368 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: residents who kept cash at home. There was just stacks 369 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: of them. And through that I found Mike Glenn, who 370 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: is a veteran reporter. He worked on the Houston Chronicle 371 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: for twenty years. He's now the Pentagon reporter for the 372 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: Washington Times, and he was in Houston when Jim was murdered. 373 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: And what he told me was really illuminating. 374 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's hear a little bit of your conversation with 375 00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: Mike Glenn, the reporter. 376 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a rough town. It has murders and 377 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: crime and break ins, and there are lots of guns 378 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 3: in the city. It's a rough town. It can be. 379 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it kept you very busy as a crime reporter. 380 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 3: I mean, and really that's all I did, you know, 381 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: for almost twenty years is covering crime, and you know, 382 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 3: there was so much of it that you would just 383 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 3: go from scene to scene to scene. People would ask 384 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: me how many like dead bodies quote unquote have you 385 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 3: seen on the job, And I said, I stopped counting. 386 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: I really, I have no idea how many murder scenes 387 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 3: or murder victims I've seen. I mean murder victims, car fatalities, 388 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. 389 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: So how did it work? 390 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 4: Then? 391 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: Do you do you get tipped off by the police. 392 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 2: Did you listen to police radio and then turn up 393 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: at the house. 394 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: A lot of police radio. I'd multiple scanners. I had 395 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 3: scanners in my car, I had scanners in my office, 396 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 3: and I would hear something going on and I would, 397 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: you know, jump in my car and rush down. That 398 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 3: was my mindset. You know, you get there first, and 399 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 3: you get there as fast as you can because that's 400 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 3: where most of the information comes in the first moments 401 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: of the scene. Because as you know, I don't know 402 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 3: if it's the same in the UK, but you know 403 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 3: in US television news, especially the local variety, you know, 404 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: if it bleeds, it leads. 405 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: So what can he tell you about the violent home invasions. 406 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that really shocks me is that 407 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 2: he said these crimes were just so run of the mill, 408 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: so normal, that he didn't even bother turning up with them. 409 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: I mean, he was the crime reporter, but he was 410 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 2: overwhelmed with the amounts of crime, so he couldn't report 411 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: on all of them. 412 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: In Houston, with my experience of violent home invasions were 413 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 3: pretty common events. And then unless there was something some 414 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 3: other variable involved, if somebody was murdered during it, or 415 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: if it was in a particularly upscale neighborhood, very rare, 416 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 3: that's really the only way that would really peauk my interest. 417 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 3: It's not that I, you know, disregarded, is the fact 418 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 3: that I had so many other events on my plate 419 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 3: that I had to deal with. The thing in Houston 420 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: is that in my experience, that's only my experience, so 421 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: I can't even say if it's absolute, But by my experience, 422 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 3: most home invasions there was usually some kind of connection 423 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 3: with the victim or somehow or they were involved in 424 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 3: drug trafficking. A lot of the home divisions I covered 425 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 3: were drug traffickers because they would try to go there 426 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: to rob a drug dealer. That happened a lot. You 427 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: kick the door down, rob a drug dealer. It was 428 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: very rare when these home invasions where the victim was 429 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 3: some kind of completely anonymous, you know, citizen who had 430 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: no connection at all. 431 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: Did he cover the Belgar's case at all. 432 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: No, So again, you know, like you said, there was 433 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 2: so common that that would have just been another kind 434 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: of run of the mill home invasion from his point 435 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: of view, So he didn't cover it. But from what 436 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: he told me, it clearly didn't fit into the usual 437 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: home invasion pattern that was rife in Houston at the time, 438 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: because home invasions didn't normally involve knives. 439 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 3: I've been on a couple of stabbing crimes, and that 440 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 3: was usually because that was a weapon of opportunity at 441 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 3: the sign. You know, somebody picks up a steak knife 442 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 3: from the cutlery drawer and goes at it. But if 443 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 3: you're a respectable criminal in Houston and you want to 444 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 3: break in, you use a gun or multiple guns. They 445 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 3: really they don't want to kill anybody because in Texas 446 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 3: that turns it into a death penalty case. So they 447 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 3: would tie these people up quite often as long as 448 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 3: they weren't struggling. In my experience, the invaders were looking 449 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 3: to grab the drugs and the money, not so much 450 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 3: to leave a bunch of bodies around. 451 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: Just going deeper into the same issue. That's when I 452 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: found out about this task force that had been set up. 453 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: So it was because the home invasion problem was so 454 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 2: big in Houston at the time, a special task force 455 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: was set up with a lot of different partners, So 456 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: Houston PD were involved, federal agencies were involved. But I 457 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: found the guy that led that task force. He's called 458 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: Ron Oliver, who's a retired ATF special agent that's the 459 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and his intelligence 460 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: told him that it was a group of Colombian immigrants 461 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: who were sort of behind these violent home invasions. He 462 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: told me that they were often in the country illegally 463 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: and carried fake IDs, and he worked to try and 464 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 2: crack the crews that were carrying out the invasions, get 465 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: them quickly through the court system, and then deport them. 466 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: So that was the sort of strategy behind it. There 467 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: were other crews, other gangs. He didn't actually call them gangs, 468 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: he called them cruise that were not Colombians, but that 469 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: was his particular target. So here was Ron Oliver chasing 470 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: these Colombian gangs. And Liz had read independently about a 471 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: home invasion that happened in the residential area very similar 472 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 2: to the one that her mum and dad lived in, 473 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: and it was led by a Colombian woman and there 474 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: was a photo fit image of her in the paper, 475 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: and when she showed it to Sandy, she said, Sandy 476 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 2: was like, oh, this looks a bit like the woman 477 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: that she remembers sort of catching a glimpse of just 478 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: before she was tied up. So, you know, Liz thought 479 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: there might be a link with the Colombian home invasion 480 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: gangs and thinking that maybe they were behind what happened 481 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: to her parents. But when I talked to Ron Oliver, 482 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: he again said there were some similar patterns. 483 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 3: You know. 484 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: Again, they targeted people who had cash, but it was 485 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: very rare for them to use knives. They didn't start people. 486 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 2: They generally shot people, and they were pretty sophisticated. They 487 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: often target a particular household and watched them for several days, 488 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: knew when people were coming and going, that kind of thing. 489 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: So it seems to me like, yes, it was a 490 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: rampant problem during this time. Yes, there were homes that 491 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: were targeted, and there was one ring that was more 492 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: violent than the other. But still, to these two people 493 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: who you talk to, not everything lined up or didn't 494 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: fit the patterns for what happened in the Malgar's case. 495 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: Is that right, Yeah, I mean there were a lot 496 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: of patterns that did fit. So for example, the fact 497 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: that there wasn't any break in. They would often rush 498 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: the door using a ruse like a fake delivery, or 499 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: they used a woman to knock on the door, so 500 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: that was you know, there were no signs of a 501 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 2: break in at the Melgars, which made police think that 502 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: it couldn't have been a home invasion. But that just 503 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: isn't the case because in a lot of these other 504 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: home invasions there weren't there wasn't a sign of a 505 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: break in. It was very common for them to tie 506 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: people up. They used robe ties, telephone cords, zip ties. 507 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: Sometimes they came equipped, but other times they used what 508 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: was to hand. They would take pillar cases off the 509 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: bed to load up the stolen goods. They were after cash, firearms, jewelry. 510 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: Remember that in the Mailgars, there was that green and 511 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 2: black backpack which was actually lizes from the childhood. 512 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: The bag that had the Xbox in it, right. 513 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it had twenty items of 514 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: Sandy's jewelry as well that was found in the garage, 515 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: So you know, could that have been another similarity? Was 516 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: that of another parallel But they always had guns, that's 517 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: the thing that Ron Oliver said. They would pistol whip people, 518 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: they would threaten them at gunpoint, and people were shot 519 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: and killed. He doesn't remember any stabbings at all. Stabbing 520 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: is a really of intimate, visceral thing that can go wrong, 521 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: so it's not really the type of thing that a 522 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: professional gang would do. Yeah, that's what he said. 523 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I think that this is the 524 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: hard thing about stories like this is we may never 525 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: know exactly what happened. And this is exactly why we 526 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: dive in and talk to experts and talk to our 527 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: sorts of different people on it. 528 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: But as we heard last week, you know, this case 529 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: is not set in stone. Things are moving all the time. 530 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: Things are changing. I mean, for Liz it's incredibly slow, 531 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: but things are changing. For example, the DNA with the 532 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: hair could be quite significant. 533 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they are allowed to test the DNA that are 534 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: to test the hairs that we're found in Jim's hand. 535 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, And what really strikes me about that is it 536 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: was Liz that brought that to the attention of the 537 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: Innocence Project when we were on the phone on that 538 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: conference call with them. They had sort of looked, I mean, 539 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: not through any fault of theirs, but they'd overlooked the 540 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: hair just because the case is so complex and it's 541 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: gone back over so many years. But Liz, with her 542 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: sort of very clever brain, remembered the hair. She remembers 543 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: the details, and the Innocence Project of Texas and Sandy 544 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: is so lucky to have Liz. She's the one that's 545 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: been across it from day one and she's still there. Yeah. 546 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: I actually forgot about that, I mean, and that that 547 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: is where like, Liz is such an incredible investigator and 548 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: has really combed through this entire case, and I can 549 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: only imagine what an asset she is to the Innocence Project, 550 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: where she knows it in and out. 551 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: She is her mother's strongest advocate, isn't she. 552 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, she is for sure. So in kind of wrapping 553 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: up this conversation is there anything that you'd like to share, 554 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: any final thoughts on working with a story or. 555 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you just can never imagine being in the 556 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: situation that Liz is in, you know, losing your mother 557 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: and your father in those sort of circumstances and having 558 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: to pick up the pieces of your life and try 559 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: and carry on after that. It's just so difficult to imagine. 560 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,239 Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah, very well said, I think that that 561 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: is exactly true, and it's just a shame that, you know, 562 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: she never got to fully grieve both her mom and 563 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: her dad, and she just has to fight every single 564 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: day and continues to fight. 565 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, now I was working with you, Maggie, Yeah, you too, Thank. 566 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: You, Thank you so much, Thank you so much for 567 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: doing this. It was really great. 568 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. 569 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,239 Speaker 1: It made me feel like we were on our like 570 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: constant phone calls just figuring out this story. So it 571 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: was good to relive that with you. 572 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. 573 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: As I said in the last episode, will continue to 574 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: follow away that happens, so please stay subscribed and I'll 575 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: bring you any updates when I can. But I want 576 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: to end the series with a thought from Liz. We 577 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: caught up with her recently and she told us she's 578 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: thinking about moving back to the US, to California one day, 579 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: to a house big enough to have relatives stay and 580 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: big enough to have Sandy live with her and her 581 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: family when she gets out of prison. Thank you again 582 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: for listening to the series. I'm Maggie Robinson Catz signing 583 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: off you've been listening to Hands Tied. I'm Maggie Robinson 584 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: cats And the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design and 585 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: mix is by Tom Brignoll. Our script consultant is Emma 586 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Bautang and 587 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: Mabel Finnegan Wright. And our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. 588 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw 589 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: at iHeart. The Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and 590 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent.