WEBVTT - Ep. 158: Noxious Stimuli 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.319 boge bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:25.560 can't predict anything, Yanny, I gotta hit you with a 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.000 marriage advice question. All right, I'm not looking for marriage twice, 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:34.080 but dude was asking you know, You're like, explain your 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.720 your one to ten deal that I started, I that 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:42.040 I appropriated. Oh I stole it. I think from Dr 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:47.720 Wayne Dwyer Dire Dwyer. It's like a self help kind 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:51.159 of author, your self help man. My dad is so 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.040 he's He's passed along a lot of books to me, Dire. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.120 Why am I has it slipping my mind? Nobody can 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.120 help me out here, Wayne Dire, I know, Dwayne you 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:06.440 recently passed away. That's Dwight Dwight. Yeah, no relation anyways, 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.760 Uh it was for him. I guess you could. Um Yeah, 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.640 Wayne Dyer, I was right. It's like a life hack 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.119 kind of a thing. Almost can you can you start 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.680 over and not say that word? But that's popular these 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.480 days and people know what I'm saying. That's what I 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.000 was hoping. We could do it without it, But I 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:30.120 can do it anyways. I've been doing it for I 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:34.000 don't know ten years, but it's a way to um 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.440 get through uh small petty arguments that maybe at the 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.800 time don't seem smaller petty with your spouse or loved one, 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.320 to get through him efficiently and move on, which he 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.080 then realized that it was probably a petty argument, and um, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.000 it's better just to have it behind you. But the 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:52.720 way you do it is if you find yourself in 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.440 this situation where you're arguing about how that's the example 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.160 would be how to load the dish washer, and you're 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.200 arguing about it, and someone realized this, man, it would 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.680 be a great time to execute the one to tend 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:10.800 um what would you call it, like device to get 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.760 through this argument to basically you just say, all right, 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:16.720 how important it is to you? And at that moment 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.359 both people throw out a number one to ten, one 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.840 being I don't get ship at all, but I load 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.320 the dishwaher like that I think about it. I really 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.880 don't care. Yeah, ten being like this is so important 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:28.960 to me that if we don't load the dishwasher right, 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.280 I'm gonna be up tonight in three o'clock in the 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.000 morning thinking about it. And so everybody throws a number 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.440 out and whoever has the higher number, you just go, Okay, 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.560 it's obviously more important to you than it is to me. 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:41.840 Let's do it your way and you move on. I 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.280 found that it works because I've once I asked myself 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.840 the question realized I was arguing about twos and threes. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.799 And I also had to work to my advantage where 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.120 I was adamant about something and my wife threw a 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.919 two or three or whatever, and I was like, well, 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.200 you know what, for me, it's like a nine, and 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.440 I won and she backed out and she's never brought 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.560 it up again. But you have to be fair. You 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.200 can't always be throwing out eights and nines. Well, this 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.160 dude that rolled in, he shot the biggest meal deer 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.840 of his life with his little boy. Okay, with his 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.280 little boy, and he's like, yeah, I'm putting it right 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:24.320 in the living room with my other ones. And she's like, uh, okay, 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.480 he already had some up and he's gonna add it. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.520 There's a whole long story about what's there not there 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:30.400 and all that, but just the gist of it is 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:36.120 he wants it there. She's like, uh um. So they 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.800 do the trick that they that you taught them, and 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:45.840 she throws an eleven. But then he's like, hey, so 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:50.120 and so he's throwing eleven back. So at that point 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.640 you're just in a regular fight. Yeah, I just know. Yeah, 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.640 that's gloves off. Obviously, just go back to like sleeping 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.800 on the couch and you can combine this with your 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:03.160 hand holding trick. Yeah, we haven't talked about that on 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.920 the podcast. I feel like I'm just getting a lot 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:07.720 of marriage advice out of out of this whole deal. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.120 This is Miles Nulty talking. Not this, No, this is 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.280 Miles Nulti talking. Not that I'm aware of. But I 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.480 have been called Nick my entire life because yeah, dude, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.119 I'm telling you what, man, Prince of Tides the book, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.119 He's not in the book, he's in the movie. Of course, 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.040 there's some good hunting effiicient stuff in Prince of Tides, man. 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.320 I mean, the the Nicknolty thing was fine in the eighties, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:32.880 but then when you had the whole d u I 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.200 thing that was posted all over you know, social media 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.200 and the Internet, that that didn't go so well. Pull 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:41.560 a cork. I didn't know that. Yeah, he got arrested 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.960 in his h It was it was a big story. 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.160 It was. It was a while ago. But Nick Nolty 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.000 used to be cool. He's not anymore. My kids are 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.720 watching a movie the air night on a movie night. Uh. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:55.080 And he was voicing a dog, voicing a like old 0:04:55.080 --> 0:05:00.360 wise dog. Uh. Where were we? Oh, there's an irregular fight. 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.680 But the trick, this is my dad's trick when when 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.200 one is fighting with their spouse. He likes to do it. 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:10.040 And he would do this, Yeah, he likes to do 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.440 it where you hold hands. You have to hold hands 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:18.479 and fight, which changes the fight. It does reach across 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.520 the table and hold hands and then be like I'm 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.240 hanging up that son of a bitch and deer right 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.479 or however you're gonna go about it. The thing we 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.320 were talking there day, Kal and Joanni, you were in 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.599 on this about whether it's okay or not okay to 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:39.320 name you're shooting irons or your bow or whatever. And 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.279 I was saying, I don't, but I had my halib. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.640 It rod was called the widow Maker, and but I 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.159 didn't name it that, but it just came with the 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.960 name which I used. The man that named it dubbed 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.400 at the widow Maker, and this guy looked it up 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.200 and he's saying, you know, there's various things, are there? 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.320 Some people refer to a particular type of vary. Hense 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.599 Bong hit as a widow maker. He found there's a 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.159 disturbing sexual practice called the widow maker, which I'm not 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.880 privy due. But he says, what he thinks you're getting at. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.839 I was saying, it means that you're gonna catch I 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:19.600 thought it meant you're gonna catch Maile Hallibate thereby widowing yeah, 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:25.159 And I can see I can there other interpretations. I 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:32.240 know that sting. So you're you're yeah. He gets into 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:37.240 this deal. Uh, you gotta introduce yourself. We're gonna get 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.320 to you real big. But he said, what it means 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.040 is you're gonna like the rod so much that you're 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.800 it will effectively widow your spouse because you'll be fishing 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.359 so often. UM. Got an email from a guy. This 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.680 is interesting. He was zapped on the ankle as a kid. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.279 He was in Custer State Park in South Dakota, got 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:04.560 zapped on the ankle by a prairie rattlesnake. UM. Within seconds, 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.440 he was temporarily paralyzed and the weirdest thing. He says, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.080 he was left with nothing but his sense of hearing 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:17.480 whoa whoa, yea almost lost his life. And there's this 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.880 whole other story about the the dude that helped him out, 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.400 and in the way that he felt that the state 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.080 part sort of didn't didn't didn't seem to want the 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:29.840 news to get out. I don't know, but but I 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.200 thought it was an interesting story. UM got some We 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:34.760 got hate mail. I never I don't talk a whole 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.400 lot about hate man. We got an interesting hate mail 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:41.280 from a guy who was piste, but he's pissed by 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.560 handful things. He's pissed that we wear forty dollar underwear, 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.080 which I don't understand because I don't know how much 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.080 I I know, like I didn't know how much my 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.840 underwear cost. My underwear costs nine dollars. I'm not to 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:54.880 look mine up. I have what's called a very casile 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.120 which is a problem in your scroll, and it feels 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.640 a lot better if I wear I don't wear tidy 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:08.120 whities that wear black tidy Whitey's three for twenty seven dollars. 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:16.880 Chet referring to the first light Boxers yeaheal problem. So 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.880 he's pinning on me. If I did I would just 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.960 tell him because I'm gonna get some more of the 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.000 things that he's mad about. But that's one of the 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.880 things he's mad about. Expensive underwear. Yeah, I think you're 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.600 unfortunately you're just looking at those as underwear. They functioned 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.760 just fine a shorts on the occasion. Um, I've liked 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:42.280 them alone many times. And uh, you know, for plane 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.040 travel all the way up through riding a horse and 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.400 mountain biking and all that stuff. Um, you know, you 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.200 don't stink so bad. Yeah, And you can wear the 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.520 same things for six seven days and and I do regularly. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.280 So but that's his great. Yeah, here's the weird thing 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:04.080 about this dude. He he says he's he's drinking beer 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.720 at c Tech and acknowledges that he's probably had too many. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.800 How much does an airport beer? So I don't get 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.800 it Like That's that's where this guy's letter becomes really funny, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.480 because another main gripe of his is that he doesn't 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.960 feel that non residents should be able to apply for 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.679 He's mad that we talk about and have friends who 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:35.200 and that we apply for nonresident big game tax, especially 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.360 for like limited draw stuff. He thinks that this is 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.520 bad because a lot of people can't afford that stuff 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.040 and you apparently he feels it only a taxpayer, like 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.719 you should have to pay taxes in a state, two 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.280 hunting the state if it's for limited draw stuff. But 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.520 again he's talking about like the working man. But again 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.760 you're buying too many airport beers. I always feel them 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.120 with people. It's like if you honestly can't afford if 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.240 you're alive in America today and have a vehicle in 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.800 the house, I could come in and analyze your budget 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:09.679 and find the money for you to do an out 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:15.160 of state tag. I have often said, like myself personally, 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.480 there's a lot of things that I write off as unaffordable, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.000 but if I looked at my yearly beer budget, the 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.400 money is more than likely right there. You know, you're 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.800 honest could drink it for a year. I was conversing 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.600 with his wife about this, Well, I haven't yet, how 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.719 do you? I was, actually, this is yeah, I'm in 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:39.280 the midst he haven't done it yet. That's right, Uh, 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.360 next year in can say that, But it's your intention 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.800 right now to take a year off of booze. It 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:46.800 is as I look to get back into it. He's 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.880 looking to get out of it, and his wife was 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.840 observing to me, um, just the observation of of not 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.120 having to buy all that beer, and she said, this 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.480 kid can do whatever. This guy like think about it 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:10.720 actually like impacts the bottom line. Yeah, well boxers and 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.720 I P A s are not cheap. So and then 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.000 he was also mad. Yeah, he talks about how I 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.040 have a d h D and I mean narcissist. UM 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.599 guy wrote in something funny. He was saying that we 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.920 were talking about button box, like do button bucks ever 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.680 shed their buttons? And and a lot of people wrote 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.679 it in fact, like send pictures and stuff. This guy 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.880 tells this funny story where he him and his old 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.800 man killed the button buck once and it shed it's 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.520 buttons in their vehicle as they're handling it, so he 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.240 saves them. He hears us talk on the podcast about 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.520 whether button bucks ever shed the hardened piece, goes to 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.679 get his to take a photo of him, can't find him, 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.760 asked his wife, have you seen my two little things? 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.959 She says, I didn't what the hell those were? And 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.800 I threw him out. So he's bummed about that. UM 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:11.760 emails coming in lately about Janice not getting the respect 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.680 he deserves and not being properly appreciated. And someone wrote 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.240 in the best I can tell, this is a poem 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.800 about honest. Have you seen this? Does it say he's 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.640 not getting respect from no? I feel like I assume 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.360 it's like, I don't know, he feels the honest doesn't 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.440 get the appreciation he deserves. In fact, the guy that 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.200 wrote the big hate mail about me having a d 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.400 h D and stuffering from narcissism, he also said something 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.839 like you gotta have all those people around you to 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:50.600 save you from bears. So he's not again he's referring 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.880 to he's referring to be honest. Uh Now, I hold 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.800 the creation of Sam McGhee and the shooting of Dan 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.400 McGrew as sort of like epinnacle of American poetry. Me too, 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.840 Like there's no better poem ever been written. So with 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.439 that as the here here's I'll read a little bit. Oh, 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:16.840 it's long, more imperturbable than a stoic philosopher, more patient 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.680 than job as, brave as a lion, a sharp eyed 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.319 as a mountain eagle. Women at dorm, critters fear him 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:31.320 in action? How like an angel? Yeah? Like this in action? 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:39.080 How how oh in appreciation, In apprehension, how like a god? 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.360 He goes on. Another guy wrote in talking about how 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.599 bad I feel lucky just to be sitting next to 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.280 But then another guy writes in about how bad you honest? 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.520 Is it math? Well, the poem didn't say anthing about maskills, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:58.040 I mean math, how bad? Remember were talking about in 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.800 Ohio if you shoot a buck, and it's like how 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.800 Ohio rates the penalties for poaching, and that if you 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.640 shoot a trophy class animal, they want to make it 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:10.480 a lot worse for you than if you shot a 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:15.040 forkey and they have this formula. Do you still have 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.560 the formula on you? I'd be able to find it quickly. 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.400 You made it. You you use it. You made a 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.760 mistake in a term, in a term you used in 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.560 a man and a teacher, a calculus teacher wrote in 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:32.920 about it. You said, okay, so you take the gross score. 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.320 Here's the formula. You already have it. Yeah, I just 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:36.960 realized to have in front of me. You take the 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.200 gross Boone and Crockett's score of an animal, and just 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.240 real quick, remind people how you determine the like what 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.240 are the measurements when you when we talk about this 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.960 U there's a whole bunch of measurements, but it's basically 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.680 the lengths of both main beams depending on how many 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.840 places you can get it. There's mass measurements that go 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:56.800 around the main beams, and then the length of the 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:02.960 times as well as the inside spread. It wouldn't be mass. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:08.120 circumference measurements and in the length of all the times. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.280 You had this all up, and there's a couple different 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.520 systems for doing this, right. Is there total overlap between 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.160 Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young or is there 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.760 a difference the scoring systems. I'm pretty sure it's total. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.720 I think it's the same. Yeah, I think it's as 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.520 far as methodology of But then the sci is a 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.040 different is My brother is a proponent of. He wants 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.800 to establish a system which might be in use somewhere. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.360 He thinks that there's only one measurement. It should only 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.320 be water displacement. I've heard that. I've got a friend 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.680 in Idaho is a really serious shed hunter, and he's 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:46.200 found the sheds off the same crazy Buck for like 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.920 the last five years straight, both sides. It's awesome. He's 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.360 just got a stack of them. But it wouldn't score 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.400 anything on either Sei or Boone and Crockett because it's 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.840 just they look like moose anglers that stick forward. It's 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.640 just so massive and palmated. But it's not long and 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.280 it's not wide. But he was telling me about the 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.480 water displacement and how it would do very well. Be like, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.960 that's his view. His perspective is if it's big, it's 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.840 just big. Dip it in the water. How much water 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.040 does it displace? And there you see who's the biggest 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.120 that if he drew a giant club, you could potentially anyhow. 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.920 Uh So you score up the deer and then you 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:27.840 take one off the score. So let's say he's a 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.280 real whopper, and I think they only start at one. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:39.120 So in that case, you acts a hundred, so you 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:45.200 square then times that by a buck sixty five and 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.360 you create the and that's what the finest. So we're 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.440 talking about this guy killed this big whopper white tail, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.960 and the fine was twenty seven thousand dollars. You have 0:16:56.040 --> 0:17:00.320 a thousand bucks for the add ons. Uh you increduckly, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.840 I didn't even catch this. You described it as exponential, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.680 that it grows exponentially. Apparently, Well so I used the 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:14.639 term exponential when something is being squared. It's not exponential. 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:20.800 That function is quadratic quad radical. So he had his 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.600 uh calculus kids make a calculator for us so we 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.600 could like type in any number and to do it. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.880 And he said he also made a calculator that if 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.679 you use Janice's method, if you use the honest method 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.280 and got away from a quadratic system and went to 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:48.320 an exponential system, uh, a one buck would okay. He 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.760 he made an exponential system and and rated it so 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.480 that the one buck scores the same on the quadratic 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.520 and the exponential. And then he ran, what would happen 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.520 if you killed a real whopper, a two fifty inch 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.520 white tail, if it was exponential, Hi, you would have 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:12.920 a one point three million dollars five. With the quadratic system, 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.439 your two white tail would get you a thirty seven 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:21.760 thousand dollar fine. How much familiarity, uh, you guys have 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.480 with North Dakota? Got some kN from North Dakota. It's 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.080 about it. You don't hunt it? No hunted, damn close. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.040 I'm hunted looking over into it. I got Northern Pike 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.000 on bluegilld jigs over there one time that was pretty exciting, 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.320 just throwing out nothing but a jig head and popping 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:46.920 it back and I was catching like hammer handle. Uh. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.679 There's a bill there right now in the North Dakota 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.320 Senate State Senate to make it that I'm approached the 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:59.000 wrong way right now in North Dakota, you a landowner 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.919 needs to actually post his land no trespassing. Like if 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.960 you're in North Dakota and you see private land that 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:11.720 isn't posted, you can go on it. And I guess 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.880 oftentimes there will be like large properties and someone might 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.600 post along the roads or whatever, but you can oftentimes 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.199 find um landowners who don't bother to post it, and 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.920 it's just understood that you can hunt it or in 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:29.200 people that try to post it don't do the thorough 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:34.240 enough job, I guess, and people find, you know, find 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.840 place where it didn't he wasn't a posted according to law, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.320 and then therefore you're allowed to access it. And there's 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.760 a bill in the North Dakota Senate to change the 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:47.440 law so that becomes an automatically posted state, meaning the 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.639 landowner has no obligation like tell you you can't go 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.720 on it. Just understood if it's private, you can't go 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.399 on it without permission. I can see both sides of 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:02.640 that one. Uh um. Another interesting thing from a guy. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:08.840 He was hunting in Oregon and got a bad hit 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.720 on a bowl. He said he took a longish, longish shot. 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.440 At what point does the shot become longish? I suppose 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.600 if you start question that would be very long if 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.040 you start questioning. I don't know if he felt those 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.959 longest in hindsight, or if he felt those longish when 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:34.560 he was going to pull layer back. He takes longest shot, 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:42.600 uses the wrong pin, it's high, squaring the shoulder, gets 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.600 a couple of inches of penetration. Uh. On a whim. 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.240 He goes on to an Oregon An Oregon hunter Facebook 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:58.680 page and describes his uh insert broadhead combo. He says, Hey, 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.520 if anyone hunting this year we're to encounter this, let 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.199 me know. Ten days later, guy sends him a photo 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:13.119 telling him he was six inches high of his broad 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:17.480 head and this bowl. This guy shot this bull twelve 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:22.359 miles due north of where he hit it in a 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:29.720 different unit. Wow, it crossed? Is it Grand Rond or no? Wrong? 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:35.360 It is ron ron ron across the Grand Round River 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.520 twelve miles away ten days later, scared it pretty bad, 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.639 or he's just all doing elk type stuff, or he's like, 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.000 I am out of here. Man on the upper end 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.000 of that's just that giant plateau be kind of easy walking, 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:57.800 but twelve miles in between the plateaus is pretty rugged. Yeah. 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.440 Up on top top by like the big the big 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.400 gorge there is amazing Yeah, like down uh Joseph Canyon 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:12.320 and all that stuff is un unbelievable good for more. 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:15.480 Lots of people rolled in. We're talking about can you 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.000 really slip on banana peels? Lots of people rolled in 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.240 about slipping on banana peels, first hand accounts of people 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.439 slipping on banana peals. One guy feels it's such a 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:33.119 problem that banana peles should be banned. He says, He's like, 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.840 if I'll say this, like if lawn dart still are illegal, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.360 you should not be allowed to have banana peels. That's 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.960 really interesting because if you get an upgrade in uh, 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:48.879 your flying service of choice, typically the snack basket includes bananas, 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.680 So I mean, but lower class people are not permitted 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:58.000 to have bananas. They might be irresponsible with the bananas 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:03.679 are the most eaten fruit in the world. We were 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:08.360 doing kids trivia last night. Back in two thousand seventeen, 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:14.360 Dude Massachusetts, an angler Massachusetts catches a four hundred pound 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:19.360 blue fin tuna fifteen days after the season ends. It's 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.680 like a ten thollar fish. Decides to keep the fish, 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.560 but it's hard to like hide a four pound tuna. 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:30.359 The words spreads around the boat, Doc, But this fella 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:34.280 is running around with a tuna. At some point he 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:36.879 gets scared and he can't get it in his truck, 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:42.080 but he ties it to his truck and drags it 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:47.919 out into the woods. Okay, he gets a federal fine 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:54.760 of fifteen thousand dollars for killing this tuna. Then just 0:23:54.880 --> 0:24:00.320 now the in the in uh, you know, putting Alton 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:05.159 the wounds. His local municipality doubles around and hits him 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:10.600 for another thousand and fines for littering and disposing of 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.760 waste from a vehicle. They're like, and so you didn't 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:16.960 learn your lesson, we will now find you an additional 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:21.040 one dollars for charges related to you dragging a blue 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:25.560 fin tuna out into the woods. That is very interesting. 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:30.240 I think that's totally fine for I'm not criticizing I 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:32.800 think that fine should be higher considering the value of 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.320 those fish and that fishery and the waste that should 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:41.880 be k for a white tail. And here you have 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.399 like here you have like a fairly written species, like 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.760 a fairly depleted species. Yeah, and it wasn't if we 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:52.080 we've fold around that article about that bluefin the first 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:55.000 bluefin in the season for a million bucks. Over a 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:59.359 million bucks. Yes, just made the Japanese fish markets because 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.119 they had the right at content anything. Yeah, and it 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:06.480 was the first absolute dude got a million for a 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.160 blue fin, well over a million if I remember correct. Yeah, 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:12.119 and this guy like owns a like a chain of 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:15.760 sushi restaurants over there and is known to be a 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:20.440 big guy with fat wallet. I believe it was the story. 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.600 But sure that wasn't the first one. No go for 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:25.239 over a million, No, no ship, And I knew they 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.399 were like extremely valuable. But I want to know blue 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:32.200 fin tuna goes for three million at first twenty nineteen 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:34.480 sale at Tokyo market, how many pounds with the fish? 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:38.120 Because I know that they'll go like I was talking 0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:39.960 to a guy that sold some blue fins over the 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:42.360 year and over the years, and you take it down right, 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:45.680 away and they pull a plug out of that thing, 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:47.680 and I don't know what they do, but they're very 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:51.400 interested in fat and I'm sure a host of other 0:25:51.440 --> 0:25:54.000 color fat and all that. And you either got gold 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.080 or you don't have gold. Yeah, and he says it's 0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:59.240 hard to tell, like he couldn't tell. What are they? 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.480 Damn sure? No. I was just watching that documentary Guo 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:06.199 Dreams of Sushi. Very good. But oh man, it was 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:07.879 amazing to see them go to the fish market and 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:10.000 the guy's like, you know, to an aside, he's like, 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:12.680 I wish there was some actual tuna here, and there's 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:16.119 like a warehouse full of these big, giant, beautiful looking 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:19.480 tuna and there's just it was all garbage to him. Yeah, 0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:22.159 and it's amazing. Cut him down to where they can 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:26.360 like stack them like cordwould, right, um, the cores Andani 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:29.159 used that learned that the cores. Yeah, this guy was 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:31.399 this blue fin tune that they found out in the 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:33.080 woods was missing. They had its head cut where to 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:37.000 leave the collar on. Yeah, the core. I mean when 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:39.280 you just I'm dying to know what was going through 0:26:39.320 --> 0:26:44.359 the psychological burden on this man from where he's like Nope, 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:47.680 screw it, I'm hauling into the woods. I'm keeping it 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:52.240 on the boat. I'm not turning it back or was 0:26:52.280 --> 0:26:54.840 it like bleeding from the gills And he was just like, man, 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:57.720 why would I throw this thing back to the sharks? Well, 0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:00.239 that's the difference between dumping it out. That's like you 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:04.159 call in fish and game or you just caught the 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:08.639 line once you realize what you got. Yeah, but I 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.600 just wonder if there's something that made him be like, Okay, 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:13.879 screw kick the doors open and haul this thing on. 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:18.200 I'm keeping it because then and it's not his boat apparently, 0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:22.520 because I'm sure they would have dinged his It could 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:24.399 have taken his damn boat. I don't know what. I 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:27.439 don't know if they did that to poach those bear cubs. Man, 0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:29.240 they got their boat taken away, and I think the 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.919 truck they used to pull the boat. Yes, is that 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:34.359 state by state though, whether or not they can confiscate 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:36.320 gear for poaching, I don't know. I don't I don't 0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:39.359 mean don't know, but yeah, that guy had to have 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:42.199 just been a mess. Then, like all that compounds by 0:27:42.200 --> 0:27:44.760 the time you get back to the dock and you're like, oh, man, 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:48.360 I'll just let that damn fish go. Yeah, and then 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:54.760 to waste it. Yeah. Oh that's sacrilegious. Man, that's weird. 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:57.919 That's kind of the weird part of them. Who you know, 0:27:57.960 --> 0:27:59.240 you have the ones had to hang out with the 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:01.520 guy like is at some point he even abandoned the 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:03.320 idea that he's just gonna stake it out and put 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:05.280 it in a bunch of freezers. Yeah, and that's why 0:28:05.320 --> 0:28:08.320 I'm like, make that jack that fine up even further. 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.840 I mean, if you're if you're wrestling, he's like, he's 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:15.040 clearly wrestling with this idea and yet chooses to do 0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:18.639 a series of worse and worse actions. It's like, you 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:22.800 had a lot of opportunities to right this wrong. I 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:24.159 get it. But we used to break all kinds of 0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.720 rules and we were little. Yeah, I don't know if 0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:28.280 he's little. I was gonna say, I doubt this is 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:29.760 a kid we're talking about. I don't think this is 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:33.159 like a sixteen year old yesterday fishing when the sheriff 0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:37.720 pulled up. All right, we're fishing. The county sheriff pulls up, 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:39.880 and I'm able to Now now I'll being where I'm 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.520 at now in life. I'm able to walk up to 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:44.800 the window and lean on the window and be like, 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:48.760 how do you boys? In the old days, if we 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:51.520 weren't doing something wrong at the moment, we were nervous 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.640 about what we had just been doing wrong last week, 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.800 pitchfork and salmon out from behind some beaver dam or oh, 0:28:57.840 --> 0:29:01.080 A little part of me was still like what, I like, 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:03.000 where's my lights? Where's what am I do? I have 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:05.880 barbs on my hooks, so that doesn't matter. Here to 0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:08.800 be drinking. Yeah, yeah, when you like you see a 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.200 copy turn the radio down. Yeah, I'm like old enough 0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:14.560 now where I'm just like, what's up? Guy? Well, they 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:17.560 came up and I haven't done I haven't done anything 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:19.959 wrong even lately. The thing that threw me off was like, 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:22.600 we're gonna get out and talk to you boy. Yeah, 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:24.280 off too. I'm like, you know what, get out and 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:27.440 talk to me because I haven't done anything bad in 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:30.160 a long time. Yeah, I'm pretty I haven't found any 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:32.680 salmon in the damp drainage ditch, saying shot up with 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:39.040 a shotgun. Hypothetically. I grabbed my license yesterday morning in 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:42.719 preparation for going out on the ice and actually opened 0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:47.160 it up, double checked the expiration date. Yeah, I got it. 0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:51.560 We're we're coming up on the expiration here. Because when 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:54.600 the first year I lived in Montana, I had a 0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:58.120 game board and I was fishing downtown Missoula at the 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:00.840 Hollywood Holding right in front of double Tree. I saw 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:04.120 a game Ward and watching me with binoculars. Hollywood hole. Yeah, 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:07.960 because everybody's looking at you game Ward and watching me. 0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:11.040 We been from with binoculars, like peeking around the building. 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:13.560 And I was like, what the what's what's he doing? 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:15.840 And I was like, oh, you know, I left my 0:30:15.960 --> 0:30:17.840 fishing bag in the truck. That's where my license is. 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:19.800 I reeled up when I saw him do that, walked 0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:21.840 right up to him and said, hey, saw you looking 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:24.280 at me? Figure you want to check my license? Uh, 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:26.560 it's it's in my bag in the car. I needed 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.000 to grab that bag because I needed to change flies. Anyway. 0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:31.400 He's like, oh, great, no problem, I walk walk with you, 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:34.400 walks over there with me. I grabbed my bag, give 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:36.520 him the license. We're just shooting the ship, being real 0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:39.880 friendly and everything, and he hands me the license back 0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:42.600 and as I reached for it, he pulls it back 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:46.040 and goes, oh, wait, this is this expired last week 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:50.600 and writes me a hundred and thirty dollar ticket my 0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:53.840 first year, first year living in Montana. And I was like, 0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:55.760 I was like, I was like, there's a there's a 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.080 there's a fly shop two blocks from here. I will 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:03.479 literally dog there and renew my license. He's like, sorry, 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:07.480 flexibility here, Yeah, because he was giving you some flexibility 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.280 for not having your license on you. Yeah, he'd already 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:13.600 like yeah, but but but I approached him too, so 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:15.720 I felt I felt like, I don't know. I was 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.920 also yeah, absolutely he was in the right there and yeah, 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:21.040 I can see it both ways, man, Yeah, but I was, 0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:23.360 I was just I was just maybe he really annoyed 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:26.120 by it. I wouldn't play it in court. Did you win? 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.280 They reduced it to the minimum fine, which was sixty 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:33.080 do that was worth your time? But to circle back 0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:34.400 to the guy with the tuna, I just have to 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.280 I hope he at least took the belly meat out 0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:38.640 of that thing, because that that bluefin belly meat is 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:41.920 like the most just like the buffalo. I could find 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:43.600 out because there's a picture of them. They had to 0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:46.440 call in a record. They called in a record lifted 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.160 up by the tail. The picture of it sitting on 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:51.760 had to call it Bob's towing to come down and 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:54.680 get that tuned carcass. They brought it to a garden. 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:57.160 They brought it to a local farm to fertilize it. 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.080 Old school did day he did? They say, if he 0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:03.480 knew that the quota was filled when he when he 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:06.880 put it in the boat. I don't know. I don't know. 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:09.840 I don't I don't remember reading that. I think you 0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:12.120 want to bring up something, man, like what was I 0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:14.720 going to bring up? We're talking about. I don't feel 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:17.600 nervous about by law enforcement people anymore. Which is good. 0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:23.080 It's in the good shotgunning salmon bad kind and well 0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:25.120 when they make a bunch of wrong turns, here's the 0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:27.640 thing is, if it makes so many wrong turns that 0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:31.720 they're in some farmers drainage ditch, we would take liberties 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:33.720 with them, because you're like, well, you're gonna like run 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.360 into another salmon and spawn on the gravel at this point, 0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:42.719 like you're up Bob weirs and drainage, you know, like 0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:44.960 you've you know, I don't know if the other salmon 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:47.800 want you in this? In the throwing in with him? 0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:51.840 Here comment did the man know that the quota was filled. 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:55.520 I feel like you lose any opportunity for argument when 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.959 you're stashing ship in the woods, no doubt by the time. 0:32:58.000 --> 0:33:01.320 Oh no, I'm just wondering what you know again his Yeah, 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:06.120 I mean too, I'm dying. Yeah, federal. Did I say federal? Federal? Yeah? 0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:08.200 I mean, for all we know, we could be really 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:10.520 churching this up. And the guys like, listen, boys, I 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:14.200 had a lot of Budweiser's those couple of days. You 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:16.080 wish I could think of what I was gonna talk about. 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:21.240 It was like a tied to this deal, tied to 0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:23.320 this deal, and I was going to talk about it, 0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:26.880 see the a D h D deal. That like narcissistic 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:30.160 a d D deal. Now, if I forgot something that 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.400 was gonna talk about how great I was, that would 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.520 back that dude up. I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be like, oh, 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.960 I don't know, I was gonna say, is I've, you know, 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:45.160 very strapping? Um uh, one last thing I want to 0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:46.600 bring up, and we're gonna talk about what we're here 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.200 to talk about. We got couple of three things. Um. 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:51.160 This guy is talking about how he used to hunt 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.360 scrolls and his grandpa and his grandpa they hunt scrolls 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:58.720 with dogs, and when it in his grandpa kept a 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:02.480 kit with him which was a fire making kit and 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:06.120 a coffee can, a tin coffee can. So when the 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:09.719 squirrel would hole up in a hollow tree, Grandpa would 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.160 get a fire burned in his coffee can and then 0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:15.920 set the coffee can in there to thereby smoke the 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:19.919 squirrel out. And if I remember right, like, I feel 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:21.520 like when we were little kids, we would you know, 0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:23.279 those smoke bombs, you get it? Fourth of July. I 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:25.480 feel like we do something similar with that, like sticks 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.239 in my head. But you're saying one time he's out 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:32.000 there with grandpa and Grandpa forgets his can, gets a fire, 0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:39.880 ripping no can and uh starts himself with fortrest fire. Yeez, 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:42.080 did you get that squirst fire? Heard of it today? 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:46.160 I hunted the web today with old bench made and 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:49.319 chose the wrong answer when I was gonna just kick 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:51.120 out my coals or should I use the rest of 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.360 my water to douse my fire. It's like a choice 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:57.200 I had to make and benchmates hunt the web realistic game, 0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:00.120 and Uh, I decided just to shuffle the coal out 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:02.040 because I was hunting in the Pacific Northwest and say, 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:06.640 nothing can fire here, And sure enough I walk away 0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:11.240 and next thing I know, game over, forest fire giant. 0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:13.360 So I gotta go to clarify. He didn't Okay, he 0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:15.400 didn't start a forest fire. He burnt the whole damn 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:20.759 tree down. But then the fire did spread, okay, on 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:24.520 the lines of Pacific Northwest and fires and bad decision making. 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:29.319 Our good buddy Jeff Lander all uh primitive outfitting his 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:34.600 buddies that are floating floating a moose river um for 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:37.399 years and years and years. One of them dies, they 0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:40.479 bury his ashes underneath this prominent tree on the bank 0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:45.040 of the river. Um. One of these years, they'd invite 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:50.239 Jeff to come down with them um and they they 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:52.960 this tree is prominent because they've called in a bunch 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:56.000 of moose in this same spot and it's nice and 0:35:56.440 --> 0:36:00.759 you know, breaks all that BC drizzle and uh, they're 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:04.000 kind of having a peaceful moment. They're and they're they're 0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:09.239 calling moose and Jeff has everybody's sandwiches and tinfoil and 0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:11.000 he starts a little fire there at the base of 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:16.840 the tree. Swiches heat the sandwiches, they eat their lunch, 0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:20.200 move on down the river. Somebody makes the comment of like, oh, 0:36:20.200 --> 0:36:24.239 you're sure that fires out. The next day, Jeff has 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:30.120 burned down the sacred tree, so to speak, with the 0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:34.759 ashes with the ashes under it, because he decided to 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.520 shuffle the coals instead of because he's he's in a 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.600 really wet place and it's just nothing matters, doesn't doesn't 0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:47.799 burn by that. Yeah, that's pretty sad. Well, it kind 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.759 of gives that sacred spot even better. Story does one more? 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:58.479 One more quickie? Now, one more quickie? No, um seth 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:04.400 if you said anything yet? Just about the the cops 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:07.680 getting another vehicle? Oh yeah, uh did you tell people 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:14.840 about how about your ill fated one hunt of a lifetime? Oh? Um? 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.320 Drew a bison tag in Montana this year for Gardner 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:22.040 and talk about that. How did you feel about three 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:26.839 areas and three areas West Yellowstone there's Gardener and then 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:30.840 there's the absorka back country unit. It's like West Entrance, 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:34.320 North Entrance and then the back country unit. And um, 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:37.279 were you excited to draw that? Tex? Super excited. I 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:42.840 was excited. Everyone was excited. Gave them all kinds federal bullets. 0:37:43.360 --> 0:37:45.799 Was gonna um the first year I put in for 0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:52.359 it and drew it. UM had big plans. We talk 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:57.120 about what needs to happen. So the bison spend most 0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:02.640 of their life in Yellowstone part and in the wintertime, 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:08.200 when the weather gets real nasty, they migrate out of 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:14.480 the park to find better grass. Um. You know, there's 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:18.840 they migrate out because there's some some animals stay in 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:22.280 the park. This is from what I gather from talking 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:24.960 with game wardens and stuff. They stay in the park. 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.600 Some animals stay in the park. Um, but there's too 0:38:28.719 --> 0:38:31.960 much pressure for you know, the park to handle that 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:34.719 many bikes and over the winter, so they move back. 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:43.359 And they're they're predisposed of roman and UM. So they 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:46.240 usually push out of the park. You know, the season 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:50.200 closes February. By that time, they're usually you know, having 0:38:50.239 --> 0:38:53.760 all sorts of trouble with them and gardener and um 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:58.520 getting into people's backyards and destroying stuff. Well, this year, 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:03.240 the weather or it was pretty mild, not much snow 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:09.480 down there, and they didn't decided to leave the park. Yeah, 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:11.080 we're up in that neck of the woods yesterday and 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:17.920 it was like no snow. Yeah, so my bison tag 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:20.640 that I don't know if I say it's once in 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:23.359 a lifetime tag because you definitely draw it again. Yeah, 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:25.640 but that means different things. There's like once in a lifetime, 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:29.040 like the expression yeah, and then there are once in 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:33.160 a life once. So once in a lifetime Montana for 0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:36.239 this tag would be like an expression right, meaning like 0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:40.200 it's not it's not like an Idaho moose tag. Right, 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:43.160 that's once literally in a lifetime. If you are a 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:47.640 successful yes, really yeah that before that's right, draw the tag. 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.719 Got tags your opportunity. If you fill the tag, that 0:39:50.760 --> 0:39:53.360 is your one star. What's the weight period? Apologies to 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:54.520 the guy who thinks you should only be able to 0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:59.120 hunt in the state where you live, Like you can't, 0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:01.600 let go to your own les and then go out 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:03.640 do you a little hunt with your uncle? That's like 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:08.279 no way, Um how many years if you don't, I 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:11.839 want to say, it's seven so long? Wait so they 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.399 never Yeah. When I talked to a game warden, no 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:18.200 state now he used the term state hunters because there 0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:21.360 are tribal hunters, like a lot of the tribes exercise 0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:25.120 treaty rights or exercise right no, come and shoot some. 0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:28.319 I went down there one time, uh and watched the 0:40:28.400 --> 0:40:34.240 nez purse shoot five of them. I think our buddy 0:40:34.320 --> 0:40:37.839 ed Garcia, I think it was just last fall, last winter, 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:40.759 he was down there. He's got a cabin somewhere down there, 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:44.840 was driving through and saw a bunch of hunters getting 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:47.440 after it, and there was so many and they were 0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:51.240 having like problems like getting all the meat out and everything, 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.080 and there's gut piles everywhere. And he went down there 0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:59.120 and he harvested ribs and hearts and livers, all kinds 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:01.200 of stuff so much he's like, oh, you want a heart, 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:03.240 buffalo heart on the way way home and he stopped 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:05.799 buying dropping. I've heard of people doing that down there 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:09.880 in the gut piles. Well, there's none of that this year. Yeah, 0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:13.759 not one tag holder, not one state tagle. I guess 0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:17.439 a handful of tribal hunters got some early. Not one 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:21.480 state tag holder. Yeah, it's just not the year. He 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:25.800 said numbers were low in the park. Yeah, because they'll fluctuate, 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:29.400 you know, like three thousand seven numbers were low in 0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:33.120 the park, which means the pressure for grazing isn't there. 0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:37.040 So did you gotta wait seven years now to try again? 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:40.759 I don't know. I'm not sure I used to put 0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:44.640 in for it, then I quit putting in for it 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.440 just because it just gets a little crazy. But I 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.480 think I'm gonna start again. I'm not gonna let that 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:51.920 scare me off. No, I'm gonna put in for it again. 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:58.000 But the snow dance wasn't the year for it. Nonresident 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.959 where to snag that tag out for underneath? You don't 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:02.839 tell that guy and that don't tell the guy who's 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.919 all drunk at the sea tag bar on the Wyoming's 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:08.239 Like I blew all my money on nine dollar beers, bro, 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:12.640 I can't do that hunt Wyoming side that opportunity to 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:16.800 pursue that buffalo for a bull. I think it is 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:21.960 like over three grand now, Yeah, they tacked their prices 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:24.120 up last year. Oh the tag if you draw the 0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:26.759 tag is three grand. Yeah. As a non resident, now 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:32.520 you're resident price. Uh. There's typically a pretty vast discrepancy 0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:36.080 between your resident and nonresident prices. When anybody like to 0:42:36.200 --> 0:42:39.719 venture a guess as to why, because they don't pay 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:43.799 taxes in the state. Because states raise a held lot 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:47.719 of money. Uh, and they fund a large portion of 0:42:47.760 --> 0:42:51.000 their fishing game operations through the sale of non resident 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:58.720 grossly inflated price to tags maybe, and all those resident folks, 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:01.920 of which all of a sort of beneficiary of our 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:09.800 tag bryces seldom get raised. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a subsidy. Yeah, 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:12.840 you hunt, you hunt deer for thirty bucks, and another 0:43:12.840 --> 0:43:16.120 guy hunts deer for six hundred bucks, and therein you 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:19.840 can fund a lot of wildlife work. Yes, yeah, I 0:43:20.200 --> 0:43:22.200 do feel for this guy, though in the fact that 0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:24.360 I have definitely been the guy doing a lot of 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:28.840 bitching about all the nonresident folks out of state license 0:43:28.920 --> 0:43:32.160 plates and stuff. And oh yeah, I feel it. I 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.000 feel it. I would, I would, you know what. Sure, 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.120 Montana f w P raised something on the order of 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:41.320 twenty one million dollars last year on nonresident license fees. 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:44.880 It was like the second highest in the country, I believe. 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:48.120 You know what happens in the trapping world. There's like 0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:53.360 a reciprocity thing in the trapping world where, for instance, um, 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:57.839 if a lot of states because because fur bears are 0:43:57.840 --> 0:44:01.000 more like a commodity, management like a commodity, a lot 0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:07.239 of states will prohibit nonresident fur trappers from trapping in 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:12.200 their state. And there's a reciprocity system where, um, if 0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:14.359 you live in a no go state. If you live 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:16.319 in a if you're if you're like a trapper from 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:18.680 a state where your state doesn't allow non residents to 0:44:18.719 --> 0:44:23.279 trap beaver, other states will reciprocate and not allow you. So, 0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:27.200 for instance, in Montana, you cannot trap fur bears. No, 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:30.719 a nonresident cannot trap fur bears in Montana. So a 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:34.480 Montana person is not allowed to go over into Wyoming, Idaho, 0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:39.120 wherever and trap someone from another state. Yeah, your state 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.879 won't let our people come. We're not gonna let your 0:44:41.920 --> 0:44:46.640 people come. You get into a little tip for tat. 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:48.640 A guy wrote in like how come how come people 0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:51.080 don't talk like why is Washington not a popular hunting 0:44:51.080 --> 0:44:53.520 state for non residents? Like one of the things that 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:57.360 we start. Yeah, there's a bunch of reasons. Um, they're 0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:02.000 extremely conservative of tag allocation. Uh, it's it's expensive just 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:05.000 to apply and a turn of points in Washington and 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.400 now it's three thirty dollars just for the application fee 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.279 for each one. So for like my moose coach sheep, 0:45:11.320 --> 0:45:13.200 I guys just don't do anymore because be a thousand 0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:18.719 bucks just down the drain, nonrefundable, nonrefundable. So some ste 0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:22.200 hundred and thirty dollar application fee. Some states will really 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:24.000 stick it to you, like to even get in is 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:26.839 gonna cost you. Alaska's smart, and I should say you're smart. 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:31.560 Their strategy is to sucker you in the applications. Not bad. 0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:33.640 We got to buy a base license and you get 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:35.880 paid his fees and then you draw and you get 0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:39.600 all excited and a zap you hard on the tag. 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:44.640 But then you get people who draw and can't afford 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:47.080 the tag, and it probably screws you up on allocations 0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:48.920 a little bit. So some states want to be like 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:51.200 is he good for it or not? Sending all your money, 0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:53.400 demonstrate that you're good for it, so that when we 0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:55.560 give you the thing, we get our money and it 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:57.719 doesn't like you can wait and then later decide to 0:45:57.840 --> 0:45:59.200 buy it or not buy it, and then we have 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:04.440 a better sense of who's like ready to roll. Yeah, Wyoming. Um, 0:46:04.520 --> 0:46:08.720 you know mountain goat is a species and the bison 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:13.600 as well, where you can't accrue points for those, um, 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:17.279 But that's all the cash up front, just like if 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:18.640 you were to put in for any of the other 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:22.400 species and not and go for like the thin chance 0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:26.320 that you might get drawn, um without the points you 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.080 throw all your all your cash up front. But yeah, 0:46:30.120 --> 0:46:33.440 that's two thousand bucks for a goat. If you're putting 0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:36.439 in for a by his sending a bowl bison too, 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:40.880 you're at like five grand in Wyoming. Yeah, what did 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:45.000 your take cost you? Bucks? It's one thousand, two undred 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:50.319 fifty for non rays. Once you a good pivot I do, 0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:55.880 speaking Wyoming, you like that? That's what we learned to 0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:57.239 call it. We just call it a segue of it. 0:46:57.280 --> 0:47:01.240 Someone's saying it's like a pivot Larry Keene, Larry Keene 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:09.840 pivots uh Larry Bird for that matter. Yeah, yeah, nice? Um, 0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:15.279 real quick, real quick issue too, real quick? Is you 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.799 know you guys are all for me? With our friend 0:47:17.800 --> 0:47:20.759 Ben long Very when we talked about what we're gonna 0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:23.600 talk about, when I touched on at one time touched 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:29.440 on what we're gonna talk about, and he emailed me 0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:34.080 warning me not to talk about So I don't want 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:37.160 to talk about it because it scared me off. So 0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:40.799 Sam Londran is gonna talk about it because I was 0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:44.640 too intimidated. I was too intimidated to talk about it 0:47:44.840 --> 0:47:47.280 because this is like this is like the forbidden subject. 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:52.840 Well that's not very narcissistic of you. Oh, if what 0:47:52.880 --> 0:47:54.319 would I do? What would have? It will be a 0:47:54.320 --> 0:48:01.719 better and more narciss You know who narcissist was, Yeah, Narcissah. 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:04.920 You know what his story was. He found that little 0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:09.120 looking pond, right, and what happened to him? Would just 0:48:09.160 --> 0:48:11.600 stare at his reflection in a pond, But something bad 0:48:11.640 --> 0:48:13.400 happened to him eventually, right, and he drowned in the 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:16.920 pond or something like that. He died by by by 0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:19.280 being so obsessed with his own reflection that was his downfall. 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:23.680 Talk about how Narcissis died. What's his name, Narcissus, Narcissus? 0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:26.520 Can you talk about how he died, how he passed away? 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:31.360 Resting r I p rip. Yeah, he found a little 0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:33.279 pond with a clear surface, and he liked to look 0:48:33.320 --> 0:48:39.640 at his reflection and to be clear, this is Greek mythology. Yeah, 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:42.439 because he's sitting there looking so much, and he didn't 0:48:42.440 --> 0:48:48.040 want to disturb that perfect surface. He got thirsty. Oh, 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:51.719 I didn't disturb his didn't want to disturb that perfect reflection. 0:48:53.239 --> 0:48:56.880 It's a painful death, especially the painting. He looks like 0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:59.080 he's got his face about six inches away from the water. 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:01.759 That's a good story. And we're talking about not long 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:07.680 ago about the Greeks. Is there's a um uh, there's 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:13.560 this principle it's um xenia z e n i A. 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:16.880 I think has to do with the guest host bond. 0:49:18.840 --> 0:49:22.240 Like it's like somehow related to the relationship of a 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:25.120 flower and its pollinator. I've heard of this. I was 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.879 gonna name one of my daughters. Only had one named 0:49:27.960 --> 0:49:30.359 after my mother, but if I had more, I wanted 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:35.520 to name one zena um. But yeah, it has to 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:37.680 do with the guest host bond, like meaning like it's 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:42.440 you host someone. Like let's say, uh, let's say my 0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:48.040 father hosted your father in his home, you would owe 0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:53.200 me still, like it's that strong the guest host bond 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:57.200 is that strong? What culture does that drive from? I 0:49:57.280 --> 0:49:59.480 learned it when we were reading the Ilian in the Odyssey, 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:02.920 and that because it was Troy you had to do 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:06.000 with like you remember how the dude that you remember 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:12.560 how Killes kills Hector. Achilles kills Hector and drags his 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:18.160 body all over to damn place and Hector's dad pri 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:23.279 Um maybe remember Hector's dad. Hector's dad comes to beg 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:26.920 Achilles let me have my boy's body back and stopped 0:50:26.920 --> 0:50:29.600 disgracing his body. And it's like all these other things 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.920 that went on with how he guilted him into it, 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:35.800 but part of it had to do with with achilles father. 0:50:37.920 --> 0:50:41.800 Um was once the guest of like pri ums father, 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:45.280 and so he was somehow through this. Some some people 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:48.280 like there's an explanation that because of that, he's like, Okay, 0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:50.919 I'll give you your boy's body back, and I'll stop 0:50:51.000 --> 0:50:52.919 dragging it behind my chariot and making a total mess 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:58.839 out of it. Zena uh whelming in the in the 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:02.840 thing that one dacent speak about. It's there's a Supreme 0:51:02.840 --> 0:51:05.200 Court case there. I want to explain to people, the 0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:09.279 damn Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Court case. Well, now 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:12.080 you got me all nervous about about opening my mouth 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:15.360 about it, and you know which I've definitely felt throughout 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:16.920 the reporting on this. Do you want to know how 0:51:16.960 --> 0:51:19.759 he You want to know the metaphor he used. I 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:22.720 used it the other night. He said it's a deep 0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:30.239 cold river and you will get in over your waiters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:32.040 it certainly felt that way. But it's also been a 0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:35.640 it's been a fascinating experience diving deep into this. But 0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:38.759 what we're talking about is the Supreme Court case horrariv. E. Wyoming, 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:41.840 which was heard by the United States Supreme Court on 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:44.600 January eight. And they haven't decided yet. No, they haven't 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:48.279 decided yet. Most folks anticipate a ruling coming out this 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:50.200 summer or this fall. But you don't really know what 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:53.399 the Supreme Court. This isn't funny how it takes along. Yeah, 0:51:53.440 --> 0:51:56.279 it takes up a lot of research issues, I'm guessing. Yeah. 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.479 And the alleged crime here happened, uh five years ago? 0:51:59.680 --> 0:52:03.400 Lay it out? Laid out all right? What happened? Sam's 0:52:03.440 --> 0:52:09.319 now getting he's up to his n You ordered some 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:11.920 hate mail to me yesterday about this, So now I'm 0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:14.600 all nervous because Sam, right, Sam wrights. Well, let's clarify. 0:52:14.760 --> 0:52:16.960 Sam writes an article about this, which can be found 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:18.960 at the mediator dot com. What's the article called. It's 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:21.520 called her Air of Yoming inside the elk hunting case 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:24.719 before the Supreme Court. Uh. And he's already gotten a 0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:28.879 hate mail, ye yep. But you know, I mean, it's 0:52:28.920 --> 0:52:33.600 more people airing their biases towards us um than than 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:37.120 hate per se. Yeah, this was like, to be fair 0:52:37.120 --> 0:52:39.239 to the one I'm talking about, it wasn't hate mail. 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.960 It was like being like, hey, man, here's some stuff 0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:43.960 that you might not know. I learned. I learned a 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:46.640 couple of things I shouldn't. That was a bad you 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:48.319 know what? Me saying that it was a shitty thing 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:49.880 to say because it was not hate mail. It was 0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:53.080 like being like, hey, I think you missed. You're off 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:55.160 the mark. He was a total dick about it, but 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:58.919 he also he was, he was, he was, He wasn't. No. 0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:02.279 He started by saying he was sorely disappointed, which is 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:04.879 I feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's 0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:08.120 my mom, Like, well, I'm not I'm not mad, I'm 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:13.959 just disappointed. It's amazing that people something so are really 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:16.439 disappointed really easily. We got a piece of hate mail 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.359 one time because because just out to half, we use 0:53:19.400 --> 0:53:21.880 the term like to instead of using something to be 0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:25.960 like you're running it, you're like running whatever tripod and 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:28.120 a guy took the time to write about how bad 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:31.440 that is, so that people are like ready to be 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:34.240 not happy. Yeah, they're they're, they're, they're they're they're trying 0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:37.960 to find any small flaw within it. And you know, 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:40.359 I worked on this for three weeks, and I'm sure 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.799 there are are elements missing, but I you know, obviously, 0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:46.279 my my goal as a journalist here was to put 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:50.200 forward the most complete, inaccurate version I could, And I 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:52.719 tried to write something that would walk the line of 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:56.320 like explaining this without you know, pissing off people based 0:53:56.320 --> 0:53:59.759 on their preconceived notions of it. So I tried to 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:05.520 play fair. It's it's it's highly racially charged. So let's 0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:07.840 let's back up a little bit and talk about what happened. 0:54:08.040 --> 0:54:10.440 So there's this guy, Cleaven Herrera, who used to be 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.440 a game warden for the Crow Tribe of southeastern Montana 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:17.840 UM and with two fronts, with a couple of friends, Uh, 0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:20.120 they followed a herd of elk off of the Crow 0:54:20.160 --> 0:54:24.560 reservation across the state line into Wyoming the Big Horn 0:54:24.640 --> 0:54:29.000 National Forest, where they killed three elk that they packed out. Uh. 0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:33.960 The game warden who ultimately found who ultimately tracked down 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:37.440 this case and um brought them to to justice, if 0:54:37.480 --> 0:54:40.520 you will, found a fourth bowl that was untouched. But 0:54:41.440 --> 0:54:43.799 they all claimed that that was that must have been 0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:47.759 from something else, or that he's lying or something like that. UM, 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.080 and how how did the Is it worth getting into 0:54:50.120 --> 0:54:52.600 how the warden tracked down. I think it is worth 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:54.680 getting into, uh because I found that to be I 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:57.840 found that to be a fascinating element of this um. 0:54:57.920 --> 0:55:04.040 So this this game, this warden who testified before the 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:07.920 before the court in Wyoming, UM, and I read through 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.640 all of that. So he was finding a lot of 0:55:10.680 --> 0:55:14.719 poaching cases in this area. He referenced a friend of 0:55:14.840 --> 0:55:17.640 his who's a shed hunter spending a bunch of time 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:20.480 up there, and this guy alone, who's not law enforcement, 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:26.200 reported twelve elk poaching cases in this area that year. Partly, 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:30.440 Buscher like like, there's one whereas a big bull um 0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:36.600 with missing just its head and its backstraps. Um, And yeah, 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:39.920 I've got a I've got a quote, um it sounds 0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:44.279 like good hunt zone. Yeah yeah, And he's like, yeah, 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:48.800 he's getting on. Then this warden said, I was getting 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:51.080 pretty desperate. I mean, you know, the public and trust 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:54.799 of game warden to enforce the game laws. The way 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:56.920 the vehicles were coming going, it was obvious to me 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.040 there was a possibility it was members of the Crow 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:02.239 tribe who response from some of this um. But the 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:04.480 way he actually the way he actually got to these 0:56:04.520 --> 0:56:07.359 particular guys, and it sounds like they're you know, there's 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:10.440 probably different groups of people in the Crow tribe is 0:56:10.560 --> 0:56:14.000 large with a large reservation. But the way you got 0:56:14.040 --> 0:56:18.480 to these particular people, and Herrera in particular, was Herrera 0:56:19.239 --> 0:56:24.600 sent an email to Wyoming Fishing Game asking to discuss 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:30.160 poaching incidents in this very area, and that was forwarded 0:56:30.239 --> 0:56:36.000 onto this game warden, Dustin Sharma, who then reached back 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:39.040 out to Herrera and said, heck, yeah, I love to 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:41.959 talk about that. We're having We're getting her asses kicked 0:56:41.960 --> 0:56:47.920 out there, basically, So they met up UH on a 0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:53.080 back road near the state line in this area and 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:56.400 and talked about what what their two departments could do 0:56:56.560 --> 0:57:01.360 to collaborate UH and to try to say all this problem. 0:57:01.400 --> 0:57:03.480 But he walked away with kind of a fishy feeling 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:08.160 about that meeting. So that was he, he Herrera, who 0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:11.719 whose name carries the Supreme Court case. Yes, he reached out. 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:14.920 I didn't realize this even like alright, I realized, I 0:57:14.920 --> 0:57:17.800 didn't realize the implication of it. Yeah, he initiated contact, 0:57:18.000 --> 0:57:20.000 he did. I could I could pull up that email 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:23.120 if you if you wanted to see it and even 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:25.200 reading it and talking with you about I missed that fact. Yeah, 0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:27.520 he sent that email. I knew there's a conversation, but 0:57:27.520 --> 0:57:29.160 I don't know that that's how it was initiated. Yeah, 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:32.920 and he voluntarily went to meet up with Dustin Sharma 0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:36.200 at the state line. They went up and looked at 0:57:36.200 --> 0:57:39.360 the carcass of a spike bowl that had been poached 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:44.240 in that area, but Shorma walked away feeling uncomfortable with 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:48.640 the meeting. Um. Here's here's another quote from his testimony. 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:51.400 He was interested in knowing who I suspected was responsible 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:54.000 for these poaching incidents. He was curious as to the 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:58.560 capabilities of our forensic laboratory and Laramie. On the way home, 0:57:58.840 --> 0:58:01.800 I was kind of, don't know, maybe excited that I'd 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:03.960 be able to solve some of these cases. But by 0:58:03.960 --> 0:58:06.480 the same token, it bothered me some of the conversations 0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:09.600 that we had. I started thinking like I was maybe 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:13.480 being taken advantage of I guess. Um. So he got 0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:19.040 home and googled Claven Herrera and found his Facebook, but 0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:22.760 also found his postings on a brag board website called 0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:25.920 monster mule E's dot com is it fair to call 0:58:25.960 --> 0:58:28.760 that a bragboard. That's what a lot of other folks 0:58:28.760 --> 0:58:32.640 have called it. But I, yeah, you know, I haven't 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:36.640 really just dude swapping info man whatever. We no, no, no, 0:58:36.720 --> 0:58:40.000 that's part within those forms. A lot of times they'll 0:58:40.040 --> 0:58:42.880 be sections where you swap info. But then there's also 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:46.040 like a thread or an arizone where all it is 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:49.600 It's like, I wasn't trying to preference. That's just kind 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:52.040 of shorthand yeah, no, no, I got you know what 0:58:52.120 --> 0:58:54.080 I mean. But yeah, I just would hate to take 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.200 like a thing like that where people are you know, 0:58:56.320 --> 0:59:00.280 sharing like legitimate infolture, like to look it's like like 0:59:00.320 --> 0:59:03.040 to show pictures of I don't know, were we all 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:04.760 like to do that? And I guess Instagram has become 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:09.960 a bragboard, brag board or forum website. But uh found 0:59:09.960 --> 0:59:12.520 a post there that Herrera had made called Goodyear on 0:59:12.560 --> 0:59:16.680 the Crow Reservation, and there was photos of these three 0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:21.080 elk in question, also a pronghorn and a mule deer 0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:25.760 that other folks he knew had killed. Um but Sharma 0:59:26.040 --> 0:59:28.760 saw looked closely at the background of the photos and 0:59:28.800 --> 0:59:32.120 felt like they looked like they were in Wyoming. He 0:59:32.160 --> 0:59:37.960 felt like he recognized the topography, the vegetation. UM. Obviously 0:59:38.000 --> 0:59:41.560 he knows this area very well UH and talked about 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:44.280 that at length in his testimony about how familiar he 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:48.360 is with the landscape. UM. He said, just based on 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:51.360 the limited topography and vegetation I could see from the photographs, 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:52.840 I kind of had a hunch where it was at. 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:54.919 But I wanted to confer with some people who knew 0:59:54.960 --> 0:59:56.920 the area a lot better than I did. So we 0:59:57.000 --> 0:59:58.800 talked to some folks. He talked to that guy who 0:59:58.920 --> 1:00:05.200 reported all the all the poaching incidents UM. And then 1:00:06.000 --> 1:00:10.000 this is many months later after the snow had cleared 1:00:10.080 --> 1:00:12.280 because they weren't able to get up into that into 1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:16.880 that area in May. So this UH, the that shooting 1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:21.280 and the conversation between Sharma and Herrara happened in January 1:00:21.360 --> 1:00:26.160 and May Uh Shurma went in there with a wildlife 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:31.400 investigator and print outs of these photos and they basically 1:00:32.120 --> 1:00:36.160 walked to the kill sites and found all the carcasses. 1:00:37.360 --> 1:00:42.960 He talked a lot about UM finding like the frozen 1:00:43.040 --> 1:00:46.560 ball of of like cud if you will, UM that 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:51.160 apparently doesn't doesn't get taken by by predators when they're 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:54.480 when they scavenge interrupt you real quick. Go ahead, talk 1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:56.720 about that seth with your special buffalo tag that you 1:00:56.760 --> 1:01:02.080 didn't fill. Um. So this is fascinating and they send 1:01:02.120 --> 1:01:04.280 you all this information when draws tagging, one of the 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.120 rules that they want you to follow is if you 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:10.240 kill one, you have to cut open the stomach. You 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:14.240 cut open the stomach and spread the contents out, because 1:01:14.240 --> 1:01:16.840 think about it, when mug has been hunting in the area. 1:01:19.400 --> 1:01:22.960 Later other people go, you have this big bloated stomach, 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:25.160 I mean, grizzlies and self eventually eat it. But then 1:01:25.160 --> 1:01:26.920 you got like that. You know, it just winds up. 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:28.320 So they want you to cut it because when you 1:01:28.320 --> 1:01:30.200 cut it and emptied out, it's like a really small thing. 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:33.200 I feel like it's aesthetics. There's no other explanation. Yeah, 1:01:33.520 --> 1:01:36.760 it's gonna be aesthetics because everything else is gonna mop 1:01:36.840 --> 1:01:40.800 up all the soft tissue, ravens, whatever gets into it quick. Yeah, 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:44.840 I mean a predator or a scavenger rather is gonna 1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:47.760 come tear that stomach. Oh bears, It just leaves it 1:01:47.800 --> 1:01:49.800 looking like someone dumped out a bag of long clipping. 1:01:49.920 --> 1:01:52.800 Yeah exactly. But I mean there's no other explanation besides, 1:01:52.840 --> 1:01:56.040 like just the way it looks, because there is a 1:01:56.080 --> 1:02:01.960 lot of non hunting recreator overlap, and that's like the 1:02:02.000 --> 1:02:04.800 size of a wheelbar. Yeah, that stomach is like you 1:02:04.840 --> 1:02:07.800 couldn't even fit it in most wheelbear. That's also a 1:02:07.840 --> 1:02:10.800 sensitive topic around there, shooting buffalo, and there are a 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:12.640 lot of folks who are up in arms about that. 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:16.560 And the whole organization built around a whole organization, so 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:18.280 I can kind of understand why they want to worry 1:02:18.280 --> 1:02:20.720 about the optics of that. Ye, all right, go on. 1:02:22.200 --> 1:02:26.880 They did some cut analysis. They but they were able 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:32.600 to take photos that matched the photo print outs they 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:37.440 had brought with them, um by identifying specific like unique 1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:43.000 knots on trees and burn marks and branch configurations and 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:46.200 and and took GPS way points at the same time 1:02:46.240 --> 1:02:49.240 finding all these all these kill sites were um they said, 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:52.000 within the space of about a football field, and they 1:02:52.000 --> 1:02:58.760 were all a mile away from the Montana border. Um 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:01.560 so he and they they so they found those three 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.760 butchered elk um, which in Herrera's defense, sounds like they 1:03:06.800 --> 1:03:09.800 were well, they were well taken care of. They'd taken 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:12.200 all the meat. But they did find a fourth bowl 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:16.440 that had been untouched and so yes, but it's main 1:03:16.600 --> 1:03:21.720 so that so it's it's it's unclear uh, whether that 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:27.040 was from Herrera or his group or somebody else, or 1:03:27.080 --> 1:03:30.840 if it died of natural causes. They couldn't tell what 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:36.080 that bold died from. I don't remember exactly. Um. There, 1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:38.400 there's there's a lot of chatter about this. I think 1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:42.080 it's something we should discuss, like ch That's why I'm 1:03:42.120 --> 1:03:44.760 letting you say, because you've looked into it more. I've 1:03:44.800 --> 1:03:46.720 heard a lot of chatter and I heard some like 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:49.919 surprising things that that I don't know if they're true 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:52.920 or not. Yeah, And you know, I've had very little 1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:56.400 conversation with Claven Herrera, but I have tried to get 1:03:56.440 --> 1:03:58.720 in touch with him several times. And I asked him 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:01.840 specifically about that. Um. That was the first thing I 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:04.560 asked him, in fact, because it's a you know, it's 1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:08.640 a big accusation to level at a hunter and um. 1:04:08.680 --> 1:04:11.360 But I also figured that was something that would you know, 1:04:11.640 --> 1:04:13.760 maybe get him to respond to me instead of a 1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:17.000 softball question. Uh. And he told me, he, um, he 1:04:17.040 --> 1:04:20.040 wouldn't even dignify it with a response. That's how like 1:04:20.120 --> 1:04:26.720 you know, he felt very highly insulted by the accusation. UM. 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:31.880 But anyway, Uh, that's what the game warden from Wyoming 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:37.480 said they found. UM. So they put together this evidence UM, 1:04:37.680 --> 1:04:42.760 the GPS way points, the photographic UM matches, and he 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:49.240 confronted Herrera on the cro reservation UM in September and 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:53.400 cited him for two misdemeanors, obviously the hunting out of 1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:56.480 season without a license, but also being accessory to other 1:04:56.520 --> 1:05:00.640 people doing so. Uh. For the two folks they a UM, 1:05:01.680 --> 1:05:06.280 they possessed or they seized the heads of the elk. 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:12.320 All three elk had already been eaten by that point. Um. 1:05:12.440 --> 1:05:17.640 And Uh, those three folks went to court. Uh they 1:05:19.040 --> 1:05:22.280 were pressured very hard by the State of Wyoming Uh 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:26.600 to plead guilty, to plead out. The state of Wyoming 1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:30.840 was seeking some thirty thousand dollars in fines and was gonna, 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:32.720 you know, come after them really hard with like, you know, 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:36.480 removal of hunting privileges and certain things. The two other 1:05:36.560 --> 1:05:41.520 guys UM who's names are escaping me right now, Uh 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:47.240 did plead guilty UM for a lighter fine, yes, Uh, 1:05:47.280 --> 1:05:51.360 And somewhere in the neighborhood of eight thousand UM and 1:05:51.440 --> 1:05:56.360 probation and not hunting in Wyoming for three years UM. 1:05:56.480 --> 1:05:59.960 A lot of a lot of this stuff is Uh. 1:05:59.840 --> 1:06:02.840 I feel like people who know this case are just 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:06.040 taking notes about what I'm getting wrong here, and I'd 1:06:06.080 --> 1:06:07.960 like to, Uh, I'd like to, you know, kind of 1:06:07.960 --> 1:06:10.560 address that briefly by saying that a lot of these 1:06:10.560 --> 1:06:14.640 case files are sealed because it's an active, active litigation 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:17.919 before the Supreme Court. Nobody wants to talk about this. 1:06:18.320 --> 1:06:20.880 Like the guy who sent us that that pissy note 1:06:21.160 --> 1:06:25.480 um yesterday. Uh, he was privy to seal the information. 1:06:25.480 --> 1:06:27.560 He was very he was privy to seal the information, 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:33.320 and uh ended his his letter um with a long 1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:36.240 disclaimer about how we could not reproduce this, we could 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:39.800 not use his name, that it was not the official 1:06:39.800 --> 1:06:42.960 opinion of anybody or anything. Uh. And that's the That's 1:06:42.960 --> 1:06:46.480 what I've run up against a lot in this court case, um, 1:06:46.520 --> 1:06:52.880 because you know what happened. Yeah, And they tell me 1:06:52.960 --> 1:06:55.880 some other part of it, and I would say, well, man, 1:06:55.960 --> 1:06:58.880 how where can I go see that? And they'd say, 1:06:58.920 --> 1:07:00.840 you can't. It's not part of public so it's hard 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:03.480 to Yeah, And and what I'm what I'm talking about 1:07:03.520 --> 1:07:07.840 here this testimony what I extracted by by skimming through 1:07:07.880 --> 1:07:12.560 two hundred and seventy pages of court transcription from the 1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:17.360 from the testimony. But anyway, um, the the court in 1:07:17.440 --> 1:07:22.640 Wyoming um did A issued a pre trial decision saying 1:07:22.760 --> 1:07:28.520 that these men could not use a treaty right argument 1:07:29.240 --> 1:07:34.240 within this within this case. So they and you don't 1:07:34.240 --> 1:07:36.440 need to explain to you. But I just don't understand 1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:39.880 the court system enough to understand that. I don't either, 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:45.800 Steve and so, and it seems it's it seems odd. 1:07:46.680 --> 1:07:50.320 It seems odd to me. Let you understood it better. 1:07:50.400 --> 1:07:53.320 I do. I do too. And I imagine this podcast 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:55.560 will get a lot of people reaching out and maybe 1:07:55.560 --> 1:07:58.560 somebody we can actually quote about it. Um And and 1:07:58.600 --> 1:08:02.480 I loved dr talk to anybody about this. And I'm 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:05.840 sorry if I pissed anybody off. I want to point 1:08:05.840 --> 1:08:08.479 out I think you're doing a great job. Okay, thanks, 1:08:08.480 --> 1:08:11.720 I appreciate that you're trying really hard, because here's the thing. 1:08:11.840 --> 1:08:14.680 It's not like we're airing someone's dirty laundry. This is 1:08:14.720 --> 1:08:18.599 being heard by the Supreme Court. Yeah, and as we'll 1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:22.760 get to this could is something that could have significant 1:08:22.800 --> 1:08:27.920 I don't want to say major could have significant tangible ramifications. 1:08:28.320 --> 1:08:32.160 It could and it couldn't. You couldn't, it couldn't. So 1:08:32.160 --> 1:08:34.680 so if you hit some points here, Sam, where you like, 1:08:34.920 --> 1:08:42.439 during your investigation here tracking down UM leads, have you 1:08:42.520 --> 1:08:46.400 hit some points where you're like, I'm just this is 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:49.679 pointless to go forward. Yes, So I wanted to walk 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:52.960 away from this so badly. I I got to the 1:08:52.960 --> 1:08:54.720 point where I was like, man, I really wish I 1:08:54.720 --> 1:08:57.840 hadn't opened my mouth about this story, because it got 1:08:57.840 --> 1:08:59.200 to it got to the point where it was it 1:08:59.240 --> 1:09:02.760 was very difficult to proceed and to really know, to 1:09:02.800 --> 1:09:06.280 be able to parse it because everybody, everybody's got vested 1:09:06.320 --> 1:09:10.680 interest here and there. There's so many different, strange, like 1:09:10.800 --> 1:09:15.920 competing UH sympathies. Most of the mainstream news coverage you 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:19.600 see on here is about this is oh nasty, Wyoming 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:24.320 is just being mean to those natives that they promised 1:09:24.400 --> 1:09:27.080 this too, and now they're reneging on these treaty rights, 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:31.000 all these hundreds this hundred fifty years later. UM. But 1:09:31.040 --> 1:09:33.640 then on the other side of it, UH, you know 1:09:33.880 --> 1:09:39.280 is some some pretty uh I feel like overblown UM 1:09:39.520 --> 1:09:46.080 rhetoric about what would happen UH I think both extremes absolutely, 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:48.280 and so that that's what I was seeking to accomplish 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:50.640 with this story, is to is to make something that 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:53.360 people could read all the way through that you know, 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:57.320 I was aware of those extremes but didn't buy into them. 1:09:57.320 --> 1:10:00.479 And I think, honestly, most of the fee back I've 1:10:00.479 --> 1:10:06.400 been getting about this was Hunters saying Hunters were angry 1:10:06.400 --> 1:10:12.400 at us for not condemning her era M and I 1:10:12.479 --> 1:10:15.080 that's just not my role as a journalist. Like, I 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:17.599 kept myself out of this as much as I possibly could. 1:10:17.600 --> 1:10:21.360 Obviously you can't completely eliminate bias, but I wasn't willing to. 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:23.560 I wasn't willing to say that you know he but 1:10:23.640 --> 1:10:25.639 you haven't. But you haven't even gotten to the part 1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:28.280 that the court cares about. Yeah, okay, so yeah, the 1:10:28.280 --> 1:10:31.519 part that the court cares all circumspects. But yeah, well yeah, 1:10:31.560 --> 1:10:34.840 so so that's how we got caught. The went went 1:10:34.880 --> 1:10:40.200 to trial, it was found guilty. The the jury agreed 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.479 with the prosecution. That uh, and so he argued because 1:10:43.520 --> 1:10:46.519 he couldn't make the treaty right argument in court, he 1:10:46.760 --> 1:10:50.360 argued that he didn't know he was in Wyoming, and 1:10:50.600 --> 1:10:55.760 that is the kind of return to what side tractice, Yeah, 1:10:56.560 --> 1:11:00.360 like some legal professional needs to explain to me how 1:11:00.520 --> 1:11:04.920 you can how in a court they can it can 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:08.320 be dictated to you. What I don't get it. Like 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:10.479 let's say you kill someone and you're like, you're like, 1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:13.160 but those self defense bro or I'm gonna act like 1:11:13.200 --> 1:11:15.680 those self defense whatever, and they say you can't say that. 1:11:16.200 --> 1:11:18.559 I don't understand that. But I don't understand Okay, Okay, 1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:20.200 So I think I think I think part of this 1:11:20.280 --> 1:11:22.960 in gosh, I wish, I wish I understood this center, 1:11:23.040 --> 1:11:25.040 but part of it is is an issue, a thing 1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:28.400 called issue preclusion. So I think I think that's what 1:11:28.760 --> 1:11:33.080 perhaps where where this pre trial is decision derives from, 1:11:33.120 --> 1:11:37.479 because Wyoming is saying that because this issue has already 1:11:37.520 --> 1:11:41.280 been litigated in in high court decisions that I'm about 1:11:41.320 --> 1:11:45.160 to discuss, because this issue has already been been litigated, 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:51.840 you can't relitigate that issue, yes, So so what go ahead? 1:11:52.720 --> 1:11:54.599 He's saying he didn't know he was in the state 1:11:54.600 --> 1:12:00.479 of Wyoming, but he wasn't like the list of charges 1:12:00.520 --> 1:12:04.960 brought against him didn't include hunting without a license. Yeah, 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.840 I did, it did he would have been legal he 1:12:08.880 --> 1:12:11.400 would have been, it wouldn't have been Wyoming's issue. And 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:14.919 the Crow reservation, I don't believe the Crow tribe issues 1:12:15.000 --> 1:12:19.479 deer or elk hunting licenses because it's treated as a 1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:23.320 as an inalienable right. You're allowed to go shoot deer 1:12:23.320 --> 1:12:25.720 and elk as a Crow tribe member on the reservation 1:12:25.880 --> 1:12:33.200 kind of whenever you want. Collateral estopple is your issue preclusion? Yeah, 1:12:33.479 --> 1:12:37.040 issue preclusion is is by and large what's being argued, 1:12:37.320 --> 1:12:40.439 um by Wyoming in the Supreme Court. That's correct me 1:12:40.439 --> 1:12:43.040 if I'm wrong. But isn't there also something that hinges 1:12:43.080 --> 1:12:45.519 upon the definition of occupied land? Yes, oh yeah, but 1:12:45.520 --> 1:12:48.559 that we haven't got that. But but you know, now 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:52.679 I'm feeling it on how you cannot like let's say, 1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:58.040 let's say we've live in some fictitious world in which um, 1:12:58.200 --> 1:13:03.360 some Supreme Court decide hides that that self defense is 1:13:03.360 --> 1:13:08.000 not a justifiable self defense isn't justifiable for murder. So 1:13:08.040 --> 1:13:10.000 then later I'm like, I get murdered. I'm like, well, 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:13.680 I'm gonna say that it was self defense, and they say, no, 1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:17.280 you're not, because it's been decided that that isn't a defense. 1:13:17.320 --> 1:13:19.720 So I could see some version go on. Yeah, I'm 1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:23.679 feeling better now. Yeah. So Wyoming is pointing to two 1:13:23.680 --> 1:13:28.719 separate court cases. Um in eighteen ninety six Supreme Court 1:13:28.800 --> 1:13:32.479 ruling called Ward v. Racehorse, I'll back up because you're 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:37.000 not you're not there yet. I'm you're right, You're tight, 1:13:37.520 --> 1:13:43.320 You're you're right, You're right. He's convicted and appeals Yes, 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:46.880 and uh. The appeal obviously has made it to the 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.439 United States Supreme Court. And what is his what is 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:54.360 his appeal? His appeal to forbidden appeal? Correct. His appeal 1:13:54.640 --> 1:13:58.240 is that the eighteen sixty eight second Treaty of Fort 1:13:58.360 --> 1:14:02.519 Laramie included Lane Whidge that the Crow tribe when the 1:14:02.520 --> 1:14:07.040 Crow tribe exceeded some thirty million acres of Montana, Wyoming, 1:14:07.960 --> 1:14:10.960 North and South Dakota to the United States and were 1:14:11.120 --> 1:14:18.200 allotted there I think eight million acre reservation, they retained 1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:20.840 the right to hunt on the unoccupied lands of the 1:14:20.920 --> 1:14:24.360 United States, so long as game may be found there. 1:14:24.400 --> 1:14:33.720 On some wishy washy words. Yeah, yeah, but no, not 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:38.719 words I wishy washy word right, what is it unclaimed 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:43.320 or unoccupied? Unoccupied, unoccupied lands of the United States, so 1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:47.559 long as game may be found there on. So the 1:14:47.600 --> 1:14:51.720 state of Wyoming became a state shortly after that in 1:14:51.760 --> 1:14:59.160 eight and in eight six the Shoshoni Bannock tribe UM 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:04.800 tried to assert a similar hunting right with similar language, 1:15:05.200 --> 1:15:07.920 I think the same language actually unoccupied lands of the 1:15:08.000 --> 1:15:14.760 United States UM, asserting off reservation tribal hunting rights in Wyoming. 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:19.840 And the Supreme Court said that, Um, when the state 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:24.040 of Wyoming entered the Union, they did so on the 1:15:24.080 --> 1:15:27.360 same footing as all other states, the equal footing doctrine. 1:15:27.360 --> 1:15:32.000 That's that's pretty ubiquitous, UM. And that that equal footing 1:15:32.000 --> 1:15:36.200 includes sovereignty over the natural resources within that state. So 1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:42.960 word vy Racehorse said that the the Shoshone Bannocks tribal 1:15:43.000 --> 1:15:49.200 hunting rights were extinguished by Wyoming's statehood, like they became 1:15:49.560 --> 1:15:55.080 not unoccupied. Yes, that that land became occupied when Wyoming 1:15:55.680 --> 1:15:59.360 became a state. It was it was unoccupied territory prior 1:15:59.400 --> 1:16:02.280 to that, then it became a state. So that's that's 1:16:02.280 --> 1:16:06.600 your definition right there of what is occupied. Yes, and 1:16:06.640 --> 1:16:10.240 that's being tested, yes, and and that's and there's there's 1:16:10.280 --> 1:16:17.200 another layer to that, UM. There was another Uh, there's 1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:23.360 another decision from the Tenth Circuit Court in so just 1:16:23.479 --> 1:16:26.800 shy of A hundred years later UM in a case 1:16:26.840 --> 1:16:30.400 called Crow Tribe of Indians Versus Repsis, which is a 1:16:31.200 --> 1:16:34.000 very similar case to this, it was a Crow tribal 1:16:34.040 --> 1:16:36.559 member who killed an elk out of season without a 1:16:36.600 --> 1:16:39.280 license in the Big Horn National Forest. That did not 1:16:39.320 --> 1:16:41.920 go to the Supreme Court UH. That ended at the 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:45.800 at the Tent Circuit court. But the Tent Circuit asserted 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:48.960 that the creation of the Big Horn National Forest resulted 1:16:49.000 --> 1:16:51.679 in the occupation of the land. The Big Horn National 1:16:51.720 --> 1:16:55.160 Forest was designated in seven it's one of the oldest 1:16:55.160 --> 1:17:00.960 protected areas UM in the country. So there's those two 1:17:01.840 --> 1:17:10.280 those two cases. But shortly thereafter after the Repsist decision UH, 1:17:10.400 --> 1:17:14.320 the Supreme Court heard a case called Minnesota the mill 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:18.680 Locks Band of Chipwah Indians UM and the curt The 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:26.240 Court maintained in that decision that the Millocks tribe main 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:28.640 did maintain hunting and fishing rights on the lands they 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:33.720 had seated under a similar treaty agreement UM. But they 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:38.800 did not reverse either the Racehorse or the Repsist decision. 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:45.519 So now there's these three conflicting precedents that the Supreme 1:17:45.520 --> 1:17:48.720 Court is is is wrestling with yeah, because I'd have 1:17:48.760 --> 1:17:52.760 to challenge, like, is the U S territory of Guam 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:58.639 technically unoccupied because it's not incorporated as a state, well, 1:17:58.680 --> 1:18:00.679 and you could show up and hunt a tribal member, 1:18:00.840 --> 1:18:04.840 go hunt Guam. The oral arguments in the Supreme Court, Uh, yeah, 1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:08.759 I don't know. I don't think so. The Supreme Court 1:18:08.920 --> 1:18:12.240 UM wrestled with this in the in the oral oral arguments, 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:14.240 and they're I mean they're they're throwing jokes back and 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.800 forth about like how the hell do we decide what 1:18:17.040 --> 1:18:23.040 unoccupied land is? They asked, let's see, three lawyers, attorneys 1:18:23.040 --> 1:18:26.439 spoke before the Supreme Court UM, one representing her Era, 1:18:26.520 --> 1:18:29.559 one representing the United States, who is intervening on behalf 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:32.479 of Herrera in this case, so they're siding with the 1:18:32.479 --> 1:18:36.200 Crow tribe, and then the the attorney for Wyoming. Uh. 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:38.599 And they asked all of them, what, how do how 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:41.400 do we what's what's unoccupied land? How do we decide that? 1:18:43.280 --> 1:18:47.920 I asked the wildlife professional about this. UM. I don't 1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:50.679 want to tell who because I didn't talked to about 1:18:50.680 --> 1:18:53.200 how I was going to use this perspective, but I 1:18:53.240 --> 1:18:56.880 was asking, like when when people were drawing up these treaties. 1:18:57.080 --> 1:19:01.479 I was expressing some surprise about using language it would 1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:04.720 be so confounding to later generations, and he said that 1:19:05.280 --> 1:19:09.559 confounding gets it. He said that that probably wasn't the 1:19:09.560 --> 1:19:12.800 word that mattered to them because at the time when 1:19:12.800 --> 1:19:15.800 they were doing this, because I think the assumption was 1:19:15.840 --> 1:19:20.280 that the game would be exhausted. Yes, yes, they didn't 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:23.599 view it wasn't normal. Was picturing that we'd still have 1:19:24.320 --> 1:19:26.640 the resources, and it was like they were watching it 1:19:26.760 --> 1:19:32.280 vanish as long as they're go ahead, Well, it was exhausted. 1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:35.719 And and that's and that's an interesting argument that hasn't 1:19:35.720 --> 1:19:38.360 been made, but has been suggested to me that elk 1:19:38.479 --> 1:19:42.600 were extirpated from the Big Horn Mountains. So so the 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:45.720 tree language not only says the unoccupied lance part, but 1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:48.920 so long as game may be found there on. So 1:19:49.320 --> 1:19:52.120 the state of Wyoming also could make the argument that 1:19:52.240 --> 1:19:56.719 because at one point game could not be found there 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:59.840 on in the Big Horn National Forest in the state 1:19:59.880 --> 1:20:03.280 of Wyoming brought them back as well as bringing elk 1:20:03.320 --> 1:20:07.320 back to the Crow Reservation, that you know that the 1:20:07.360 --> 1:20:10.160 treaty right right was extinguished because of that. That's not 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:13.040 the argument they made. But it's when they perhaps could 1:20:13.080 --> 1:20:16.599 have that. Yeah, and and and I've I've heard that too, 1:20:16.640 --> 1:20:22.120 that uh, the negotiators, if you will, for the United 1:20:22.160 --> 1:20:25.800 States at the time, we're thinking that that, well, we're 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:30.320 we're we're damn far down the road of getting rid 1:20:30.360 --> 1:20:32.479 of all the bison and elk and everything, and they're 1:20:32.520 --> 1:20:35.960 probably not gonna last a whole lot longer. So what 1:20:35.960 --> 1:20:39.320 what what value validity does this have? This, this truck, 1:20:39.439 --> 1:20:42.360 this right will will go away just because they won't 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:46.160 have anything left to shoot not too long. It seems 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:51.040 that the money is betting on Wyoming losing. Like we 1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:53.439 don't know how much they'll lose or how bad they'll lose, 1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:55.160 but the money seems to be betting on that Wyoming 1:20:55.160 --> 1:20:59.840 will lose. Yes, Yes, that's that's a that's my if 1:20:59.840 --> 1:21:01.960 I to read the tea leaves, and there's two, there's 1:21:01.960 --> 1:21:06.800 two competing wisdoms here, one competing one one wisdom. One 1:21:06.840 --> 1:21:12.160 idea is that this will mean that the whole system 1:21:12.200 --> 1:21:18.760 that we've built around assessing wildlife populations, making a determination 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:22.639 about harvestable quotas and being able to enforce that, like, 1:21:22.680 --> 1:21:26.320 all of that's gone. Now. If I'm just saying that 1:21:26.400 --> 1:21:29.479 that the two look radical competing with that that is 1:21:29.520 --> 1:21:33.080 the given the radicals here, Yeah, the radical sides and 1:21:33.080 --> 1:21:36.599 and and we'll getting on what might be the thing. 1:21:36.640 --> 1:21:38.920 But like you, you wouldn't need to you, you don't 1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:42.720 need to look far to find someone who could say, well, 1:21:42.760 --> 1:21:47.439 what this could mean was is that tribal members can 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:51.519 go out onto any national forest, any blm land. I've 1:21:51.560 --> 1:21:57.639 even heard national park and shoot whatever you want, whenever 1:21:57.680 --> 1:21:59.720 you want, whenever you want unoccupied land. And it will 1:21:59.720 --> 1:22:02.280 make land and will make wildlife management very difficult because 1:22:02.280 --> 1:22:05.920 we won't have enforcement systems in quotas and and bag 1:22:06.040 --> 1:22:08.880 limits and seasons and all that. That's that's one thing. 1:22:09.320 --> 1:22:14.439 Another thing is that, um, this is nothing new. Other 1:22:14.479 --> 1:22:17.400 states have been in this situation. There's states that work 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:23.760 in cooperation, most states, and it wasn't and it wasn't 1:22:23.800 --> 1:22:26.479 wildlife armageddon, and there's no reason to think that it 1:22:26.520 --> 1:22:29.200 will be here. Those are like right. I haven't been 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:31.760 able to confirm this, but I've heard a couple of 1:22:31.800 --> 1:22:34.840 times that Wyoming is the only state that does not 1:22:34.960 --> 1:22:41.320 allow any form of off reservation treaty hunting every other apparently, 1:22:42.120 --> 1:22:45.040 I cannot confirm this but I have heard that every 1:22:45.080 --> 1:22:48.519 other state in the West there exists some form. I mean, 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:50.439 we were just talking about it. In the case of 1:22:50.479 --> 1:22:55.559 the Gardener bison hunt that's off reservation treaty hunting. Yeah, 1:22:55.920 --> 1:22:58.639 and there I think and and man I could be off. 1:22:59.120 --> 1:23:00.960 But in there, I feel like it just has to 1:23:01.040 --> 1:23:03.720 be that the tribe actually, like the tribe doing the 1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:06.200 bison hunting, but they're doing it in cooperation. They're like, 1:23:06.200 --> 1:23:10.479 there's like quote as they went place, it's like historic 1:23:10.640 --> 1:23:14.000 use patterns. So it can't be that like that. I 1:23:14.000 --> 1:23:18.759 don't think that that someone from um, like a seminole. Perhaps, 1:23:18.880 --> 1:23:20.600 I don't know, I could be wrong with us. I 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:23.960 don't think a seminole could come out and make a 1:23:24.000 --> 1:23:28.040 claim that they're gonna shoot buffalo on the border of 1:23:28.120 --> 1:23:30.320 Also National Park. I think it has to be a 1:23:30.439 --> 1:23:33.599 group that has some sort of historic youth handing. Now 1:23:33.640 --> 1:23:36.559 the Nez Purse, who I went there. As we all know, 1:23:36.800 --> 1:23:39.240 when the yes net Purse were during the Netz perse War, 1:23:40.120 --> 1:23:43.040 Um they traveled through Yellowstone, so it was like they 1:23:43.040 --> 1:23:45.519 had an awareness of the area they were able to 1:23:45.640 --> 1:23:48.840 navigate through there. They had historically gone out and hunted 1:23:48.880 --> 1:23:52.439 on the plains because like our our people, if they 1:23:52.439 --> 1:23:54.719 didn't know about it and didn't know how to travel 1:23:54.720 --> 1:23:56.639 through there, they wouldn't have gone through there in eighteen 1:23:56.680 --> 1:23:58.560 seventy seven. So we had a historic there was a 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:03.679 historic use. Yes, and in many tribes have petitioned based 1:24:03.720 --> 1:24:07.400 on historic use and in treaty language successfully and in 1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:13.760 very very recently too. Um. Two uh, restore those those 1:24:13.840 --> 1:24:18.920 hunting rights based on historic use. Um. So what didn't 1:24:18.920 --> 1:24:22.760 we hit? What didn't we hit? Well, yeah, okay, so 1:24:22.880 --> 1:24:25.320 we we didn't. We didn't quite we didn't quite wrap 1:24:25.439 --> 1:24:27.880 that wrap that up about what what would happen. So yeah, 1:24:27.920 --> 1:24:31.000 there's people who are saying, well, yes, if the Supreme Court, 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:35.160 you know, rules in favor of Herrera, then all of 1:24:35.240 --> 1:24:39.559 a sudden, there will be tribal members in every national 1:24:39.600 --> 1:24:43.479 forest in the West, shooting whatever they want, whenever they want. 1:24:44.200 --> 1:24:47.200 I'd be I'd be extreme. I would be that that's 1:24:47.200 --> 1:24:49.320 just not gonna happen. Well, the matter is that's not 1:24:49.360 --> 1:24:51.080 gonna happen. You don't know because there could be some 1:24:51.240 --> 1:24:54.000 huge sweeping like now and then the court will have 1:24:54.040 --> 1:24:57.880 like some huge sweeping thing that causes a lot of Yes, 1:24:58.120 --> 1:25:01.400 but that there overturned a lot. The doctrine of conservation 1:25:01.479 --> 1:25:05.200 necessity is in everyone's minds here, and that is a 1:25:05.600 --> 1:25:13.000 a well established UM precedent. That's that basically prevents courts 1:25:13.360 --> 1:25:20.120 from issuing decisions that would have drastic negative consequences for 1:25:20.320 --> 1:25:23.479 wildlife populations. This is this is this is something that 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:28.519 dates back a long ways and UM the Supreme Court 1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:32.480 is is highly aware of The Supreme Court is unlikely 1:25:32.760 --> 1:25:38.439 to completely solve this issue. Uh They they typically, I 1:25:38.439 --> 1:25:43.280 mean the Supreme Court deals and high minded ideals, if 1:25:43.320 --> 1:25:48.160 you will, so they what I would guess they would 1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:53.400 do is issue a test for occupancy. Two. I imagine 1:25:53.400 --> 1:25:59.559 they will say that there are unoccupied lands in Wyoming still. 1:26:01.000 --> 1:26:04.800 But what that means that they may remand to a 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:07.920 lower quarter or they may issue some form like what 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:11.200 what I think about? Here is another case I'm familiar with, 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:14.160 you know, the current litigation surrounding the Clean Water Act. 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:19.679 Uh So that the the issue there is like what 1:26:19.680 --> 1:26:23.040 what what are connected waterways? Like? What are you allowed 1:26:23.080 --> 1:26:26.240 to pollute? What are you not allowed to pollute? And UM, 1:26:26.280 --> 1:26:28.960 what they're basing a lot of the revision of that 1:26:29.000 --> 1:26:35.200 Clean Water Act rulemaking is on UM significant nexus or 1:26:35.800 --> 1:26:39.080 is it is it navigable or you know how water 1:26:39.160 --> 1:26:40.720 flows from one place to the other. That's what the 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:43.280 Supreme Court likes to do, is like, here's a test. 1:26:43.760 --> 1:26:46.240 This is how you go down and you go figure 1:26:46.280 --> 1:26:49.320 it out. And so they'll probably remand to the tent 1:26:49.439 --> 1:26:53.120 circuit or whoever it is um based on this, and 1:26:53.160 --> 1:26:56.400 I've heard some I've heard some suggestions that it's hundred 1:26:56.439 --> 1:26:59.240 and fifty yards from a road and two hundred yards 1:26:59.240 --> 1:27:03.200 from a campground in in a national forest and on 1:27:03.200 --> 1:27:07.040 on public land or so so they they may issue 1:27:07.120 --> 1:27:11.840 some some like these are unoccupied lands, but the conservation, 1:27:11.960 --> 1:27:17.400 the doctrine of conservation necessity will likely lead them or 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:21.799 the lower court they were manned to too effectively force 1:27:22.760 --> 1:27:28.599 Wyoming and the Crow tribe to come to the table 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:33.080 and and say, okay, you do have the Crow tribal 1:27:33.120 --> 1:27:36.920 members do have this right to hunt these unoccupied lands, 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:39.240 whatever they may be, and put it to Wyoming to 1:27:39.240 --> 1:27:42.360 accommodate them. Yeah, exactly, Wyoming will have to accommodate them. 1:27:42.400 --> 1:27:44.400 And and in the story I have an example of 1:27:44.439 --> 1:27:51.519 how how that um went down with a tribe in Colorado. UM. 1:27:51.560 --> 1:27:54.799 And so you know, one guy I talked to UH 1:27:54.840 --> 1:27:58.040 for this for this story he gets. He gives the 1:27:58.240 --> 1:28:01.920 example of UM, so say there's hundred ELK tags for 1:28:02.040 --> 1:28:06.400 that unit currently. He if he's looking at the crystal 1:28:06.439 --> 1:28:09.080 ball or t leaves or whatever, he's saying, like, you 1:28:09.080 --> 1:28:12.200 know currently, and you know these these are numbers out 1:28:12.200 --> 1:28:13.880 of thin air. But he's like, so if you currently 1:28:13.920 --> 1:28:16.640 have eighty licenses, of those licenses going to residents and 1:28:16.640 --> 1:28:22.680 twenty going to non residents, after whatever may happen, if 1:28:22.680 --> 1:28:26.320 they rule in favor of Herrera, then you'd have sixty 1:28:26.320 --> 1:28:30.320 of those licenses going to residents, ten going to non residents, 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:35.200 in like thirty going to crow tribe members. So that 1:28:35.400 --> 1:28:40.680 that's that's how that's how significant reduction of available tags. Yeah, yeah, 1:28:40.960 --> 1:28:42.400 you know that's what you just brought up. Something that's 1:28:42.400 --> 1:28:44.519 interesting with the guy that this idea of, like should 1:28:44.560 --> 1:28:47.559 you be able to do nonresident hunting is um Most 1:28:47.560 --> 1:28:50.680 states also put a cap. Most states limit like an 1:28:50.720 --> 1:28:53.000 available resource for only ten percent of the resources can 1:28:53.040 --> 1:28:55.439 go to non residents. Yeah, and Wyoming does all sorts 1:28:55.479 --> 1:28:57.280 of crazy stuff like that, like you can't hunt in 1:28:57.280 --> 1:29:00.519 the wilderness areas and nonresident that without not a guide, 1:29:00.600 --> 1:29:05.240 which I believe is unconstitutional. But I asked the governor 1:29:05.280 --> 1:29:08.000 there about that. He didn't want to discuss it. I 1:29:08.040 --> 1:29:11.000 would imagine that's unfair rule. How do you justify that? 1:29:11.040 --> 1:29:12.479 He goes, I don't need to justify it to you. 1:29:14.600 --> 1:29:16.640 I spent out it was it was a joking. He 1:29:16.680 --> 1:29:20.240 didn't really. I mean it was we're formally joking around, 1:29:20.560 --> 1:29:24.000 uh my buddies over there on the Idaho side. That 1:29:24.000 --> 1:29:28.280 That's kind of what they always come back to is like, listen, 1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:33.920 you may have more pressure in your area, but the 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:39.360 number of nonresident hunters doesn't change. It's like, for the 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:43.519 last X amount of years it's been this much, it's capped. Yeah, 1:29:43.640 --> 1:29:49.840 It's like it's it's never above ten percent. And he's like, yeah, 1:29:49.920 --> 1:29:53.439 I don't doubt that you're seeing more pressure in year zone. Well, 1:29:54.200 --> 1:29:58.519 Colorado Archery ELK, it is not capped. There's over the 1:29:58.600 --> 1:30:03.200 counter tags all over damn state. Oh really that's cap 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:06.960 That's interesting because he feels like you will see Brody. 1:30:07.080 --> 1:30:09.920 Brody is predicting that you will see the end of that. Yeah, 1:30:10.080 --> 1:30:13.639 it will become capped. I I thought that they I guess, 1:30:13.680 --> 1:30:17.000 not right. Not happening to move at that direction. But 1:30:17.320 --> 1:30:19.400 they're doing some stuff this year. But they didn't. They 1:30:19.400 --> 1:30:23.200 didn't cap like the OTC tags. They didn't do any Idaho. 1:30:23.439 --> 1:30:28.680 Every non resident purchase goes against that quota. So it 1:30:28.720 --> 1:30:32.320 doesn't matter if you're buying all the way up in 1:30:32.320 --> 1:30:37.600 the Panhandle, uh, you know, unit one or all the 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:42.240 way on the complete opposite side of Hell's Canyon. Um, 1:30:42.360 --> 1:30:45.799 it all comes out of a nonresident pool, can I 1:30:45.800 --> 1:30:47.160 I know I got us off on that, but I 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:51.040 get us back. What are we missing? Sam? I feel 1:30:51.040 --> 1:30:54.560 like we've covered it, so we gotta wait now, we 1:30:54.680 --> 1:30:56.720 gotta we gotta wait. But yeah, you know, I mean 1:30:56.760 --> 1:30:59.200 too if you had to one to tenant, one to 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:04.840 tenant on this is like one to tenant, um Like 1:31:04.920 --> 1:31:07.320 this is like, oh my god, this is gonna change 1:31:07.360 --> 1:31:10.040 life as we know it. Being a ten one will 1:31:10.080 --> 1:31:11.840 be that there's no not even a blip. You'll never 1:31:11.840 --> 1:31:13.280 really you could live your whole life and never knew 1:31:13.320 --> 1:31:18.240 this happened. Um, where are you putting it? Putting into? 1:31:18.400 --> 1:31:20.200 Yeah it is. I wish you'd ask me that an 1:31:20.240 --> 1:31:22.000 hour ago, and I could have thought about a little bit. 1:31:22.080 --> 1:31:24.599 But I'd say a three or four for three or four, Yeah, 1:31:24.640 --> 1:31:27.479 I mean and and so and and everybody like with 1:31:27.479 --> 1:31:29.439 with this piece of everybody wanted to put like big 1:31:29.479 --> 1:31:34.120 implications in the in the headline and and major changes coming. 1:31:34.160 --> 1:31:37.840 And I just I was uncomfortable with that because I 1:31:38.760 --> 1:31:41.920 because because of the content doctrine of conservation necessity, we 1:31:42.000 --> 1:31:47.000 don't have unregulated hunting in the United States by and large. 1:31:47.439 --> 1:31:53.439 You know this will this will ultimately fit into some 1:31:53.520 --> 1:31:57.720 form of game management system. Will people in Wyoming lose opportunity? 1:31:58.120 --> 1:32:03.160 That's that's possible. I don't think that's yeah, quite possible. Um, 1:32:03.200 --> 1:32:07.160 But uh, you know something something that um Herrera's lawyer 1:32:08.080 --> 1:32:10.800 keeps harping on whenever I've talked to her is that 1:32:10.920 --> 1:32:16.960 elk are over objective in that unit and that Wyoming 1:32:17.000 --> 1:32:20.960 apparently can't get rid of enough elk tags. And so 1:32:21.439 --> 1:32:23.960 what's interesting about this, and we talked about this, and 1:32:24.000 --> 1:32:27.800 you talked about it too, is that none of this 1:32:29.640 --> 1:32:32.400 matters to the court. The Supreme Court doesn't care like 1:32:32.479 --> 1:32:35.080 about the elk objective. They don't care if you took 1:32:35.120 --> 1:32:37.599 all the meat, none of the meat. It doesn't matter 1:32:37.640 --> 1:32:40.240 if you shot a hundred of them. Yeah, it doesn't 1:32:40.280 --> 1:32:44.240 matter if you tortured them they're talking about ceremonials, talking 1:32:44.240 --> 1:32:46.800 about like three or four words. They're talking about issue 1:32:46.800 --> 1:32:50.960 preclusion and unoccupied lands. They're not that's all they're making 1:32:51.080 --> 1:32:52.960 Like was this ethical? And it's like there, it's like 1:32:53.000 --> 1:32:55.400 they're looking at something very clean. All of the stuff 1:32:55.400 --> 1:32:57.800 we're getting into, all the preluders like Germane. It's like, 1:32:58.560 --> 1:33:01.559 is someone who's living under this treaty that was made 1:33:01.560 --> 1:33:04.600 with the federal government, what is the definition of a 1:33:04.680 --> 1:33:07.200 term that was using your treaty? Yeah, and so and 1:33:07.240 --> 1:33:09.240 so that whole story I took I took people through 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:11.519 is like and that that's what everybody points to, is I. 1:33:11.680 --> 1:33:13.880 It's like, oh man, he just he's felt so guilty. 1:33:13.880 --> 1:33:17.080 He felt he really feels like poaching. Even someone on 1:33:17.160 --> 1:33:18.960 staff was like, while he was poaching, let's just say 1:33:18.960 --> 1:33:22.519 it was poaching. That's not, that's not, that's not, that's 1:33:22.520 --> 1:33:24.479 not what's a foot here that that's not what the 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:29.000 Supreme Court does. More than likely, I would expect that 1:33:29.240 --> 1:33:32.400 whatever the Supreme Court decides, there will be another ruling 1:33:32.439 --> 1:33:34.760 by a lower court case that will decide if he 1:33:34.840 --> 1:33:36.720 was poaching or not, and he will gets slapped with 1:33:37.280 --> 1:33:39.960 a fine for that. You don't think so. No, if 1:33:39.960 --> 1:33:43.080 he wins, he's not going to get a If he 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:44.800 wins the Supreme Court case, he's not going to get 1:33:44.800 --> 1:33:49.040 fined by the state. Right, Well, you know who knows. 1:33:49.120 --> 1:33:51.320 Let's let' let's let's revisit this after Yeah, let's bring 1:33:51.360 --> 1:33:54.960 a lawyer in here. But yeah, so I I really, 1:33:55.000 --> 1:33:58.800 I really think that you know, it will affect hunters 1:33:59.000 --> 1:34:03.000 in Wyoming, UM by some measure, But I don't think 1:34:03.040 --> 1:34:05.640 it blows up the North America in the auto of 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:08.400 wildlife conservation like some people are asserting. That's your prediction, 1:34:08.479 --> 1:34:11.240 that's my prediction. We'll return to it. Okay, Yeah, I'm 1:34:11.240 --> 1:34:14.479 gonna I'm hooked now. I can't help but continue to 1:34:14.520 --> 1:34:17.320 follow this. So, uh, it's it's gonna be. It's gonna 1:34:17.320 --> 1:34:19.160 be quite a while until this is resolved, so we'll 1:34:19.160 --> 1:34:22.360 have plenty more opportunities. I don't have a good segue 1:34:22.400 --> 1:34:27.120 for what's coming. Net. Do you have a pivot? No? Well, yeah, 1:34:27.120 --> 1:34:28.840 I think a pivot that's just like you just start 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:32.680 talking about something different, right, No, pivot's kind of like 1:34:32.720 --> 1:34:35.320 a segue. You could just jump. I like how you're 1:34:35.320 --> 1:34:38.200 wearing a jump my dad. My dad calls My dad 1:34:38.280 --> 1:34:40.760 calls it changing gears without hitting it, without stepping on 1:34:40.800 --> 1:34:43.120 the clutch. I'm not clutching, and he loves to do that. 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:47.200 He just changes changes topics on the drop of the happen. 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:50.479 I forgot to clutch there. Sorry, because the theme, the 1:34:50.479 --> 1:34:53.519 theme here, one of the themes here is um uh 1:34:53.600 --> 1:34:56.680 we're talking about here, I'm working this out. One of 1:34:56.720 --> 1:34:59.719 the themes that we're talking about. We're talking with writers 1:35:00.600 --> 1:35:05.120 and uh and writing. We're talking about writing. They can 1:35:05.120 --> 1:35:07.519 be found at the meat Eator dot com. And I'm 1:35:07.560 --> 1:35:15.000 pivoting too, Miles Nick Nolton's kid, Miles, you never sent 1:35:15.080 --> 1:35:17.800 me any good you know, birthday, yes, or anything. That's 1:35:17.840 --> 1:35:20.200 what I was always hoping. Yeah, I mean he could 1:35:20.200 --> 1:35:22.479 have afforded some some good ship. I never got anything. 1:35:22.640 --> 1:35:25.280 You gotta do a paternity claim, Like, well, how else 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:30.360 would I have the same name? Uh, lay out your deal. 1:35:31.960 --> 1:35:34.559 So the story that we're talking about comes from I 1:35:34.560 --> 1:35:36.320 mean this kind of kicked around in my head when 1:35:36.320 --> 1:35:40.120 I was ice fishing not too long ago, and we 1:35:39.880 --> 1:35:41.840 were we were having a good day and we were 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:45.080 pulling a whole lot of perch through the ice and 1:35:45.439 --> 1:35:47.559 just kind of take them off the hook, and we 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:50.280 had probably three inches of standing water on the ice 1:35:50.439 --> 1:35:52.479 in the hut at that time, and I could just 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:57.719 hear these dozens of perch splashing around beneath us, not 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:00.839 not really dying, just kind of gasping and half freezing. 1:36:01.640 --> 1:36:05.559 And it got me thinking about how, particularly as hunters, 1:36:05.560 --> 1:36:08.200 we talk a lot about ethical killing. Yeah, like, you'd 1:36:08.240 --> 1:36:09.639 never have a half a live deer in the back 1:36:09.640 --> 1:36:11.720 of your truck. No, No, well I hadn't. My old 1:36:11.720 --> 1:36:14.080 man was it was accident, it was a road kill. 1:36:14.120 --> 1:36:15.760 He didn't. He didn't do it, and someone else did it. 1:36:15.960 --> 1:36:17.720 You never drag a half a live deer and like 1:36:17.760 --> 1:36:19.800 have it kicking behind me. That that's fine. Yeah, I'm 1:36:19.800 --> 1:36:22.240 not worried about that. That That sounds pretty dangerous too. I 1:36:22.240 --> 1:36:24.840 mean there is that aspect, but that's beyond but that's 1:36:24.880 --> 1:36:28.040 not what that's not the point here. Beyond danger. Yes, 1:36:29.000 --> 1:36:31.559 So it got me thinking about how we we talk 1:36:31.600 --> 1:36:34.960 a lot about ethical killing, and we judge people who kill, 1:36:35.040 --> 1:36:38.960 how we determined to be unethically as hunters, but no 1:36:38.960 --> 1:36:41.120 one seems to give a shit about fish. My sister 1:36:41.160 --> 1:36:44.360 in law, you're okay, your sister in law teaser for it, 1:36:44.960 --> 1:36:49.080 for it and she made her job to dispatch fish, 1:36:49.120 --> 1:36:53.120 and we ridicule her for it. But we don't have 1:36:53.240 --> 1:36:58.120 live squirrels bouncing around in our game bags. That would 1:36:58.120 --> 1:37:00.720 be barbaric. And and if you wound the bird bird 1:37:00.800 --> 1:37:03.360 hunting and it's still flopping, what do you do? Kill 1:37:03.400 --> 1:37:07.200 it immediately? Immediately, immediately? And if you don't, you're a 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:09.640 bad person, right, I mean by all of like the 1:37:09.680 --> 1:37:14.160 collective consciousness assessment, fish like tough shit, We just let 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:16.439 him go? Why is it? And this is my question, 1:37:16.479 --> 1:37:18.559 this is what I started thinking about, is why why 1:37:18.600 --> 1:37:22.880 do we not care about fish? It's I think it's like, well, 1:37:22.920 --> 1:37:25.160 I don't know. I think it's just like a person, 1:37:25.240 --> 1:37:29.200 what the amount of credit you give them? High you've 1:37:29.240 --> 1:37:32.599 talked about before. But so after you and I talked 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:35.120 about this, Steve, I went and did a deep dive 1:37:35.439 --> 1:37:39.200 into some of the literature, like the actual research literature 1:37:39.240 --> 1:37:44.000 on this and the dark web, Yes, the dark web? 1:37:44.080 --> 1:37:48.280 Is that? Is that what we're calling the truth about 1:37:49.360 --> 1:37:54.840 the truth about whatever. It's a real answer and and 1:37:55.160 --> 1:38:00.720 believe it or not, like in certain biology circles or 1:38:00.800 --> 1:38:04.439 certain certain uh corners of academia, right now, there is 1:38:04.479 --> 1:38:09.360 a lively debate about how much pain fish feel and 1:38:09.400 --> 1:38:12.200 whether or not they do feel pain. And this they're 1:38:12.320 --> 1:38:15.200 like these sort of these two camps that are lobbying 1:38:15.320 --> 1:38:18.240 articles back and forth in different journals. They keep referencing 1:38:18.280 --> 1:38:21.320 the same each other and and going back and forth 1:38:22.280 --> 1:38:27.280 convinced fish do feel pain or convinced the argument for 1:38:27.360 --> 1:38:32.479 why fish can't feel pain. And it seems to me 1:38:32.560 --> 1:38:34.640 that all of this, like I learned, I learned a 1:38:34.640 --> 1:38:36.800 lot of vocabulary while I was doing this. I figured 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:40.479 you guys would would appreciate vocabulary. So one being, um, 1:38:41.400 --> 1:38:44.880 the things that cause pain into two critters are referred 1:38:44.880 --> 1:38:49.120 to as noxious stimuli. Got it. Yep, I'm liking that one. Yep. 1:38:49.600 --> 1:38:53.360 And the beginning for a band, Yeah, would like it's 1:38:53.479 --> 1:38:57.639 real hard metal. Yeah, very like death metal. Knocks at 1:38:57.760 --> 1:39:03.240 a lot of like feedback and they sing like death metal. 1:39:03.439 --> 1:39:06.080 Well that that's that's a great segue into your lead. 1:39:06.640 --> 1:39:08.840 It is. But I'm I've got more like I've got 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:12.280 I've got these the goes on right like you got. 1:39:12.280 --> 1:39:15.040 I'm not a stimuli. I'm just saying your vana. I 1:39:15.080 --> 1:39:17.040 know I do cover that in the article. We do 1:39:17.120 --> 1:39:19.320 get into you know, I do believe there's but there's 1:39:19.320 --> 1:39:22.120 possibly like the reason at least our generation doesn't think 1:39:22.120 --> 1:39:25.240 that that's cool. The torture fish is because of Kurt Cobain. 1:39:25.479 --> 1:39:28.160 We can completely blame him for his his lyrics that 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:30.000 you know it's okay to eat fish because they don't 1:39:30.040 --> 1:39:32.720 have any feelings. But I don't buy that. Cobain said 1:39:32.720 --> 1:39:36.920 that he did Underneath the Bridge. Yeah, I never did 1:39:36.960 --> 1:39:39.320 like that band. I mean nothing to do with that. 1:39:39.360 --> 1:39:42.559 It's like, well, you're from that area. I couldn't help it. 1:39:42.680 --> 1:39:44.360 I still I don't. I don't don't consider him like 1:39:44.360 --> 1:39:47.960 a solid source on on fish. You don't go there 1:39:47.960 --> 1:39:50.200 for your theology. I don't. I don't. There were people 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:56.560 in my class bawling the day Cobain killed himself, or 1:39:56.600 --> 1:39:58.400 the day of the news came out that he had killed. 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:01.120 I'm not about being I'm not gonna like act like 1:40:01.160 --> 1:40:04.400 I'm sad when someone passes away. I'm not. I'm not 1:40:04.560 --> 1:40:06.600 sitting up sorry. I'm not gonna act like I'm not 1:40:06.640 --> 1:40:09.439 gonna stay like. That's not I means said the opposite. 1:40:09.439 --> 1:40:13.600 I went, I'm saying like meat digging, and I just 1:40:13.640 --> 1:40:16.200 don't like the music as bearing out my feelings about 1:40:16.280 --> 1:40:21.040 one's passage, especially someone has a child. Yes, I'm gonna 1:40:21.040 --> 1:40:24.799 I'm gonna pivot this back to to where the noxious 1:40:24.800 --> 1:40:28.760 stimulator things that could hurt something. The the behavior of 1:40:28.880 --> 1:40:33.160 responding to noxious stimuli without being conscious of it or 1:40:33.479 --> 1:40:36.280 is known as no seception or nazi semption. I'm not 1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:41.439 totally sure. And and where this really hinges is the 1:40:41.439 --> 1:40:45.960 difference between having the subjective experience of pain, which is 1:40:46.080 --> 1:40:50.240 known or subjective experiences are known as quality just more 1:40:50.320 --> 1:40:52.680 more thrown out there. But there's a subjective experience of 1:40:52.720 --> 1:40:58.440 pain versus sort of the unconscious response to a noxious stimulus. 1:40:58.880 --> 1:41:02.400 And the best analogy that I was able to find 1:41:02.920 --> 1:41:05.479 was that, like when you put your hand down on 1:41:05.520 --> 1:41:11.439 a hot burner, your body jerks your hand away before 1:41:11.560 --> 1:41:17.800 you experience pain, And so those two neurological experiences are different, 1:41:17.840 --> 1:41:20.879 like that the processes in the brain are very different 1:41:21.040 --> 1:41:24.959 between having what they would call a nose defensive behavior 1:41:24.960 --> 1:41:28.519 pulling your hand away, and then having the subjective experience 1:41:28.640 --> 1:41:31.920 of having pain. And so where these two camps of 1:41:32.200 --> 1:41:35.600 researchers seem to differ is do fish have the physiological 1:41:35.640 --> 1:41:41.640 capability of getting to that pain experience? And some say 1:41:41.680 --> 1:41:44.200 they dunes, some say they don't. So there there's still 1:41:44.400 --> 1:41:47.200 debate between these two camps of biologists as to whether 1:41:47.320 --> 1:41:51.800 or not fish are just reacting to not just stimuli, 1:41:52.439 --> 1:41:54.760 or they're actually have or they have the capacity to 1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:57.160 both react to it and feel it as a pain experience, 1:41:57.400 --> 1:42:00.960 if the quality or the subjective experience is similar to 1:42:01.640 --> 1:42:04.519 ourselves and higher primates. And so there's there, you know, 1:42:04.600 --> 1:42:07.320 if you look at it in terms of the evolutionary 1:42:07.680 --> 1:42:10.759 tree of vertebrates, fish are about as far from primates 1:42:10.760 --> 1:42:12.479 as you can get. And there are a lot of 1:42:12.479 --> 1:42:15.479 differences in the way that we're put together. And these 1:42:15.479 --> 1:42:18.640 two camps of researchers are essentially arguing over something that 1:42:18.760 --> 1:42:22.120 right now is unknowable. What is the internal experience of fish? 1:42:22.640 --> 1:42:25.719 And point unknowable it is? And and they both seem 1:42:25.800 --> 1:42:27.880 to me, And I'm sure we're gonna get mail from 1:42:27.960 --> 1:42:29.720 folks who are researching to no more than I do. 1:42:29.880 --> 1:42:32.559 It seems to me that they're working from predetermined notions. 1:42:32.600 --> 1:42:35.360 One camp be in like it is we since we 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:40.320 can't know the possibility of subjecting these critters to pain 1:42:40.400 --> 1:42:43.920 that's not unnecessary, is is atrocious, and we should therefore 1:42:44.240 --> 1:42:46.120 make sure we're not doing it, and the other camp 1:42:46.200 --> 1:42:49.479 saying the value to humans of our the way that 1:42:49.479 --> 1:42:51.160 we're doing things like the way that we fish, the 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:53.799 way that we farm, the way that we do testing 1:42:53.880 --> 1:42:56.599 on fish is so high that we can't assume that 1:42:56.600 --> 1:42:59.000 they're having the pain experience. And so they both are 1:42:59.040 --> 1:43:03.040 working from their their preconceived notions of value and trying 1:43:03.040 --> 1:43:05.760 to prove something that at this point is unknowable. Where 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:10.640 are you add it? I mean, I'm stuck on the 1:43:10.680 --> 1:43:14.920 unknowable part, and I have I love fishing and I'm 1:43:14.920 --> 1:43:18.599 not gonna stop fishing. And I think that fish experience stress. 1:43:18.720 --> 1:43:20.680 There's no question they experience stress. You can, you can, 1:43:20.800 --> 1:43:23.160 there is is there no question that fish experience stress. 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:25.559 That part is is no question they experienced stress. They 1:43:25.560 --> 1:43:28.320 have stress hormones. They there are a lot of studies 1:43:28.320 --> 1:43:31.280 that demonstrate that they avoid noxious stimuli right, and that 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:35.080 they different fish more than others. By the way, trout 1:43:35.560 --> 1:43:38.479 do not avoid noxious stimuli because they're not as smart 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:41.839 as say goldfish. Different story though. The other thing I found, 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:44.600 but that's why the can catch them so good. I 1:43:44.960 --> 1:43:48.360 still think I still from when going back to the 1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:52.559 initial story, I don't think there's any reason to unnecessarily 1:43:53.560 --> 1:43:56.360 subject fish to stress if you're just gonna kill him anyway. 1:43:56.360 --> 1:44:01.880 So you're now stopping, you're stopping. Okay, let me put 1:44:01.880 --> 1:44:05.000 it this way. Let's say you're fishing bluegills. It's hot, 1:44:06.360 --> 1:44:08.479 and you're throwing them in a bucket because they stay 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:10.240 alive in the bucket, they do. And you keep adding 1:44:10.240 --> 1:44:14.080 water because you're live well alive because it's hot out 1:44:14.800 --> 1:44:16.160 you don't happen to have a whole bunch of ice 1:44:16.200 --> 1:44:18.360 and packing them on ice and whatnot. Do you think 1:44:18.439 --> 1:44:22.240 that's bad? He damn sure is not wanting to be 1:44:22.280 --> 1:44:25.479 in that bucket. Yeah, I mean, I I think that. 1:44:27.560 --> 1:44:29.960 I think that. I'm not I'm not condemning live wells. 1:44:30.120 --> 1:44:31.600 I'm not gonna come. I'm not gonna go with that 1:44:31.760 --> 1:44:34.920 about buckets. I mean, do you make an argument the 1:44:34.920 --> 1:44:38.280 bucket alive well, pretty damn so properly managed. I think 1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:40.040 those are pretty dmpn similar, I think. And I think 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:42.320 that in that case, if you're playing to harvest that 1:44:42.320 --> 1:44:44.439 fish and it's a question of spoiling the meat and 1:44:44.479 --> 1:44:47.360 wasting the critter, I'm gonna say keep it in the 1:44:47.600 --> 1:44:50.680 keeping the bucket and keep alive, but then dispatch it 1:44:50.760 --> 1:44:53.160 quickly when you remove it from there. Here's the thing 1:44:53.240 --> 1:44:56.040 that makes us interesting too. And you talk about this, 1:44:56.240 --> 1:44:59.400 you talk about killing fish. When you were a commercial fisherman, 1:45:00.000 --> 1:45:01.200 I was. I was. I was a guide that was 1:45:01.240 --> 1:45:03.400 a recreation guide, but we were harvesting a lot of 1:45:03.560 --> 1:45:05.120 I was gotten up in Alaska. I got it up 1:45:05.120 --> 1:45:07.160 in Alaska for years, and we harvested a lot of 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:10.200 salmon for our clients, and we essentially became fish processors. 1:45:10.680 --> 1:45:14.519 Best practices, yeah, was to get them in as quickly 1:45:14.520 --> 1:45:16.840 as possible, whack them right at the base of the 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:20.960 skull until you get the twitch, and then bleed them 1:45:20.960 --> 1:45:25.880 out and get that meat off the bone. I did. 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:28.200 I I commercial fish in Alaska for a long time, 1:45:28.240 --> 1:45:30.880 and we would haul in tens of thousands of sam 1:45:30.920 --> 1:45:34.360 at the same time into our hold of refrigerated seawater 1:45:34.960 --> 1:45:37.719 that's exactly thirty four degrees and so, and they would 1:45:37.920 --> 1:45:40.639 freeze to death over the span of about an hour 1:45:41.240 --> 1:45:44.320 they'd be swimming around in there. So that seems much 1:45:44.400 --> 1:45:46.720 less humane than what you were doing. Yeah, and and 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:48.960 that like to to that point. That's one of the 1:45:49.280 --> 1:45:51.720 issues going on with the researchers are talking about right 1:45:51.720 --> 1:45:55.880 the way that we harvest fish commercially, if they experienced pain, Like, 1:45:56.040 --> 1:45:57.800 we have all these things in place for livestock, in 1:45:57.840 --> 1:45:59.439 the way that you can kill livestock too, so that 1:45:59.439 --> 1:46:02.479 it is as humane as possible, even like blind Yeah, 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:04.760 like blind alleys, you can't they can't see the one 1:46:04.760 --> 1:46:07.400 in front of it. Yeah, and they don't see like 1:46:07.960 --> 1:46:10.479 in a normal situation. I guess they they're not even 1:46:10.479 --> 1:46:12.280 watching the one in front of it get hit. And 1:46:12.280 --> 1:46:14.760 that's a neat quality issue as much as a that's 1:46:14.760 --> 1:46:17.680 what That's what I's getting out the commercial practices is 1:46:17.720 --> 1:46:20.920 it winds up being that Um, people who are like 1:46:21.000 --> 1:46:23.640 just concerned with since they're just concerned without it's like 1:46:23.680 --> 1:46:29.280 a reductive thing. People who are concerned with quality of flesh. Um. 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:31.280 I didn't know about your case. I think people are 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:34.479 concerned with the quality fresh process real quick. Yeah. But 1:46:34.640 --> 1:46:37.599 Sam's case is slightly different too, because we're talking about 1:46:38.040 --> 1:46:43.040 he's talking about humane ethical kill and this is a 1:46:43.120 --> 1:46:46.400 question of do fish feel pain? Well, this is both 1:46:46.439 --> 1:46:49.000 And that's the difficulty of this of this debate is 1:46:49.000 --> 1:46:52.880 because we're trying to apply science to a philosophical issue. 1:46:53.040 --> 1:46:55.680 The reason that we know this is possible though, or 1:46:55.800 --> 1:47:01.639 it's a relatable thing is congenital in sensitivity to pain 1:47:01.960 --> 1:47:08.640 or SIP genital and sensitivity genital um, which is the 1:47:08.720 --> 1:47:13.400 human version of you have never felt pain, nor are 1:47:13.479 --> 1:47:20.000 you capable of feeling physical pain. So by knowing about that, 1:47:20.080 --> 1:47:23.320 we do know that it is at least possible to say, well, 1:47:24.720 --> 1:47:29.680 these fish or what whatever you want to discuss this on, 1:47:30.760 --> 1:47:33.400 it is possible that they could very well not feel 1:47:33.439 --> 1:47:37.920 pain because we do have an established case. Um, I 1:47:38.000 --> 1:47:41.640 know that these critters damn sure don't want to die. No, 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:46.200 that's why. That's why. Yeah, I don't don't really have 1:47:46.240 --> 1:47:49.360 any to add. My sister in law changed my my 1:47:49.479 --> 1:47:51.559 My sister in law made me feel slightly sensitive to 1:47:51.600 --> 1:47:55.760 it because she doesn't like it, and that that was 1:47:55.800 --> 1:47:59.040 the base of your We're out fishing catfish, she don't 1:47:59.040 --> 1:48:01.679 like them laying by. I'm about we're going all around, 1:48:02.240 --> 1:48:05.519 she won't even fish. Should just take a flame knife 1:48:05.520 --> 1:48:09.640 and kill all the catfish. I would say this. I 1:48:09.640 --> 1:48:11.800 would say this. I think that the point for me 1:48:12.120 --> 1:48:14.160 in all of this is that we we talk about 1:48:14.240 --> 1:48:17.080 trying to be at least conscious of the way that 1:48:17.120 --> 1:48:18.960 we kill things, we're gonna harvest somewhere to eat them. 1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:20.880 And I think that we should apply that to fish 1:48:20.920 --> 1:48:24.479 as much as we do anything else. And and because 1:48:24.520 --> 1:48:27.320 because it's unknowable, take steps to you know, I'm not 1:48:27.360 --> 1:48:29.160 saying don't go out and kill fish, because I'm not 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:32.680 gonna stop doing that, but to to do it in 1:48:32.720 --> 1:48:36.080 a way that like if to not unnecessarily draw out 1:48:36.160 --> 1:48:38.760 that process, because this was not hard to just whack 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:40.760 him over the back of the head. And they're done 1:48:40.800 --> 1:48:43.080 the same way, like if you kill your ducks to 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:45.160 someone say like I don't, I think you should when 1:48:45.160 --> 1:48:46.800 you run up to a duck, you should make sure 1:48:46.800 --> 1:48:50.559 it's dead. That's not by extension saying you shouldn't hunt ducks. No, yeah, 1:48:50.640 --> 1:48:53.200 we've just accepted that. That's like a normal practice. Have 1:48:53.280 --> 1:48:56.240 you guys seen the videos of the Messiah when they 1:48:56.280 --> 1:48:59.160 had decided to kill you know, they're nomadic hurds and 1:48:59.320 --> 1:49:01.800 when they had decide I had to kill one of 1:49:01.800 --> 1:49:08.759 their beeves. Um, like, it's quite the slaughter process because 1:49:10.560 --> 1:49:16.880 like everybody's around petting this. I would assume a steer um. 1:49:17.120 --> 1:49:19.760 I'm not sure what age class they select, but that 1:49:19.760 --> 1:49:22.479 would suggest that they cast right. That would suggest that 1:49:22.520 --> 1:49:24.599 they cast right if it's a steer. But and I'm 1:49:24.600 --> 1:49:30.360 putting a lot of western uh yeah. But they're around 1:49:30.400 --> 1:49:36.720 like petting this uh beef and uh I had and 1:49:37.000 --> 1:49:40.080 from what outside looking in, making it seem very special. 1:49:40.520 --> 1:49:43.519 And then somebody just pops a real quick hole and 1:49:43.560 --> 1:49:49.160 it's jugular vein and uh they continue to sit there 1:49:49.200 --> 1:49:53.759 and and pet it and eventually it just like weekends 1:49:53.800 --> 1:50:00.680 and goes to sleep. There's a apocalypse now now they 1:50:00.680 --> 1:50:10.160 do it. No, no, but that seems like killing them 1:50:10.200 --> 1:50:15.760 softly approach. I think. I think the the quick kill 1:50:17.880 --> 1:50:22.680 and uh, you know, quickly dispatching our our game is 1:50:22.720 --> 1:50:27.519 something that's very caught up in the uh you know, 1:50:27.560 --> 1:50:31.760 the fair chase ethic that's developed around sport hunting in 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:36.439 the United States over the last hundred years. Because I 1:50:36.439 --> 1:50:40.240 imagine the market hunters of old didn't care so much 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:42.960 about it. I'm guessing not guys who were out killing, 1:50:43.240 --> 1:50:47.719 you know, dozens and dozens of deer bison every day 1:50:47.760 --> 1:50:52.200 probably weren't overly bothered by the you know, how long 1:50:52.240 --> 1:50:56.160 it took for them to die. They were, but for 1:50:56.240 --> 1:51:01.400 other reasons. But someone who ran four their bison off 1:51:01.520 --> 1:51:05.360 cliff right. Yeah, probably wasn't top of mind to go 1:51:05.479 --> 1:51:07.000 and make sure I mean that that was like a 1:51:07.080 --> 1:51:09.559 maiming exercise. It was like, probably not top of mind 1:51:09.600 --> 1:51:12.240 to make sure everyone was humanely dispatched real quick. No. 1:51:12.479 --> 1:51:14.599 But I mean, this is this is something that has grown, 1:51:14.680 --> 1:51:17.120 as you know, I feel like concurrently with the fair 1:51:17.200 --> 1:51:20.760 chase ethic, and I think it's a positive notion. I 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:24.880 think it's tied to a lot of other Western ideals 1:51:24.920 --> 1:51:28.759 and even anthropomorphism, the growth of that in our culture. 1:51:29.040 --> 1:51:31.680 So it's it's fascinating to me. And just dealing with 1:51:31.680 --> 1:51:34.320 the working on this piece with Miles, it's it's really 1:51:34.320 --> 1:51:37.800 made me introspective about it. Now. I sort of feel 1:51:37.840 --> 1:51:42.120 bad for letting tens of thousands of pink salmon, uh 1:51:42.280 --> 1:51:44.679 you know, die over the band of a couple hours. 1:51:44.680 --> 1:51:48.240 And it's it's really made me think about this and 1:51:48.439 --> 1:51:51.559 every every fish I've caught since then. I've just it's 1:51:51.600 --> 1:51:54.439 not too hard to take a filet knife and stab 1:51:54.479 --> 1:51:58.400 it right behind the eye and make them dead quickly. Man, 1:51:58.439 --> 1:52:01.479 those boys and gone are good at it. They kill him, 1:52:02.000 --> 1:52:06.760 they do because all their fish bite. Yeah, they around 1:52:06.800 --> 1:52:08.439 the bottle of the boat. They'll take a chunk out 1:52:08.439 --> 1:52:11.479 of your leg. Man, they got it down pat. They 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:13.840 hit it like it's like they take that knife and 1:52:13.880 --> 1:52:17.840 they'll they'll stand the fish up, belly down, thin up, 1:52:19.200 --> 1:52:21.280 and they hit the sweet spot with that tip of 1:52:21.280 --> 1:52:24.760 that knife that fishes. It's a good practice. Sometimes. My 1:52:24.840 --> 1:52:26.880 dad almost lost a toe to a dungeon s crab 1:52:26.960 --> 1:52:29.080 that was wandering around at the bottom of the boat. 1:52:29.479 --> 1:52:33.280 But you know, some folks again for the meat, the 1:52:33.320 --> 1:52:36.439 consistency of meat that they're looking for. It's like you 1:52:36.479 --> 1:52:41.400 want to leave that heart pumping pop a gil so 1:52:42.160 --> 1:52:45.519 it's bleeding out. That doesn't sound very good. And then 1:52:45.560 --> 1:52:51.760 there's that may practice miles about that. That's that that 1:52:51.840 --> 1:52:54.760 can't be a good a good way to go. That's 1:52:54.760 --> 1:52:57.720 where that's where the man. Once you e k G 1:52:57.880 --> 1:53:02.640 may something. It's dead dead dead dead dead, Yeah, the 1:53:02.760 --> 1:53:09.200 dead dead. Explain what that is e k G. Man Um. Basically, 1:53:09.240 --> 1:53:11.960 you start at the tail um and there's a lot 1:53:12.040 --> 1:53:15.439 to do with like getting the fish cold um, but 1:53:15.479 --> 1:53:20.439 it's still alive. Um. You cut the tail open. It 1:53:20.439 --> 1:53:22.679 hasn't been bonked on the head or nothing. It hasn't 1:53:22.680 --> 1:53:25.760 been bonked on the head. Yeah, you peel the tail back. 1:53:25.800 --> 1:53:28.519 You take a metal rod and you running up the 1:53:28.560 --> 1:53:32.519 spinal column to the base of the brain. And what 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:37.760 that does is it uh prevents the fish going uh 1:53:37.920 --> 1:53:41.920 for going through riga moartas changes change us the way. Yeah, 1:53:42.200 --> 1:53:44.839 we had a guy right in all about this changes 1:53:44.880 --> 1:53:48.479 the way to say, like there's like when you slaughter cattle. 1:53:48.520 --> 1:53:52.479 Have you ever watching the slaughter cattle and a slaughter facility? 1:53:52.800 --> 1:53:57.559 Not personally, so I think this is the right sequence. 1:53:57.680 --> 1:54:01.639 The hit with a captive bolt gun, hoist it up, 1:54:02.479 --> 1:54:07.000 cut it, electrocute it, electrify it. And that has to 1:54:07.080 --> 1:54:12.000 do with yeah, it has to do with like neat 1:54:12.080 --> 1:54:15.439 quality issues. But it just melts. There's no like like 1:54:15.520 --> 1:54:18.559 changes the way. It's like seized up. And and we're 1:54:18.880 --> 1:54:20.759 the first time I went to Guyana, they killed turtles 1:54:20.800 --> 1:54:23.120 that way. Cut the head off the turtle and take 1:54:23.160 --> 1:54:25.280 a long skewer. Did they go out caught in the jungle, 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:28.240 Take a long skewer and run it down the turtle spine, 1:54:28.880 --> 1:54:31.200 down the center of the spine. Because normally if you 1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:32.720 kill a snap and turl, you can't clean it for 1:54:32.760 --> 1:54:35.440 an hour or two. You clean that turtle the second 1:54:35.440 --> 1:54:37.680 you cut its head off because once you e K G. 1:54:37.880 --> 1:54:42.000 Made it, I'm using verb form up. Once you did 1:54:42.040 --> 1:54:44.760 that to it, you could lift this leg up and 1:54:44.840 --> 1:54:47.600 drop it and the leg just falls flat dead. There's 1:54:47.640 --> 1:54:51.360 no nerve like, there's no like nerve contraction. It just melts. 1:54:54.760 --> 1:54:57.400 That's fascinating telling you what, man, And it has to 1:54:57.400 --> 1:55:02.160 do with like like sushi, and you know the applications. 1:55:02.160 --> 1:55:03.680 I'm not even totally checked out. I need to tell 1:55:03.720 --> 1:55:06.240 again this is somebody reading about it right now. But 1:55:06.280 --> 1:55:08.879 it was interesting on the fish thing because if at 1:55:08.920 --> 1:55:15.600 any point in time a thousand years ago, um, somebody 1:55:15.640 --> 1:55:21.200 truly thought fish had pain experiencing that, I think it'd 1:55:21.200 --> 1:55:23.360 take a real tough son of a bit should be like, listen, man, 1:55:23.440 --> 1:55:25.840 I know it's really gonna hurt, but I'm gonna run 1:55:25.840 --> 1:55:32.160 this metal route up your spine. If you're quick about it. Yeah, 1:55:32.480 --> 1:55:37.160 you know what's dead. It's going to be dead, real dead. Yes, 1:55:37.240 --> 1:55:40.760 if I did that to you, just like jelly, no 1:55:40.880 --> 1:55:43.960 bringing you back. But I think I think the point 1:55:44.000 --> 1:55:46.400 here that s important is that like, is it possible 1:55:46.400 --> 1:55:52.080 that that we are anthropomorphizing all the game as it's 1:55:52.160 --> 1:55:54.960 very possible, But I also think that that's there's there's 1:55:55.120 --> 1:55:57.800 a validity to that, to it to to take best 1:55:57.800 --> 1:56:02.879 practices that we can to tomize the potential of suffering, 1:56:02.920 --> 1:56:05.360 whether because we do not know, like, at least from 1:56:05.440 --> 1:56:07.040 the research that I was reading, we do not know. 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:10.480 You're not ruining You're not like ruining the meat. No, 1:56:11.240 --> 1:56:15.120 you're not. It's like it's not costing you anything. And 1:56:15.120 --> 1:56:18.160 if it's only a ten percent chance that it's diminishing suffering, 1:56:18.160 --> 1:56:21.440 why not exactly? And from a oral standpoint, it's just 1:56:21.680 --> 1:56:24.320 better ground to stand on. Yeah, I feel like we 1:56:24.320 --> 1:56:27.000 can feel better about ourselves as hunters and anglers if 1:56:27.040 --> 1:56:29.520 we have a higher degree of respect for the animal 1:56:29.560 --> 1:56:31.800 in its life. And I feel like, you know, in 1:56:31.840 --> 1:56:35.600 the day and age we live in, having you know, 1:56:35.720 --> 1:56:40.840 a positive public perception of our practices is as is 1:56:41.000 --> 1:56:44.320 very important that we consider these things. In fact, just 1:56:44.360 --> 1:56:46.800 the very fact that we consider them. I think it's beneficial. 1:56:47.040 --> 1:56:50.560 Was the name of your article, Miles, Uh, it's it's 1:56:50.600 --> 1:56:56.040 it's currently being decided because it hasn't come out yet. 1:56:56.440 --> 1:56:58.400 It will be coming out next week, so we we 1:56:59.200 --> 1:57:01.400 the draft hoppy is finished, But you go with a 1:57:01.480 --> 1:57:03.240 clever one or just one that lays it right. Out. 1:57:03.280 --> 1:57:05.200 I'm not sure yet. Like I've got two different options 1:57:05.280 --> 1:57:08.200 right now, so I'm I'm I mean, the obvious one 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:12.280 is do fish feel pain? I've seen that or that exactly. 1:57:14.000 --> 1:57:16.880 That undersells it, man, I know, I think you should 1:57:16.880 --> 1:57:19.520 call it um. It's working on ethical right now. It's 1:57:19.560 --> 1:57:21.920 ethical fish killing. It's sort of the working title. But 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:23.720 I think that's lame and I want to get more interesting. 1:57:25.480 --> 1:57:27.440 I don't have a good title. I'm working on it. 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:30.040 I was trying to get to a one fish to 1:57:30.360 --> 1:57:33.520 fish red fish. Oh yeah, that's a type of situation. 1:57:33.640 --> 1:57:36.760 I was trying to go with fish. I was trying 1:57:36.760 --> 1:57:39.839 to go with a play on Nirvana or Kurt Cobain. 1:57:40.680 --> 1:57:43.240 I wonder if there's another lyric we get to extract there. 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:46.840 There was there was one of those in the spirit 1:57:46.960 --> 1:57:52.360 maybe yeah, de fish, real quick? What's wrong? Honest? Well, 1:57:52.400 --> 1:57:54.120 I just want to say something. I've been listening to 1:57:54.120 --> 1:57:55.760 you guys talk for like ten minutes. I was gon 1:57:56.880 --> 1:58:01.000 and uh, I just feeling It's fun because last night 1:58:01.160 --> 1:58:03.160 my wife and now we're talking about just like how 1:58:03.360 --> 1:58:06.240 much does an animals suffer? We're like the kids were 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:09.480 somehow the HSUS came into it. And we're trying to 1:58:09.520 --> 1:58:13.040 explain to kids like species versus individual animals, and we 1:58:13.120 --> 1:58:17.120 got talking about suffering whatever until like we actually are 1:58:17.200 --> 1:58:20.920 able to say, yes, this is the experience the animal hats. 1:58:21.360 --> 1:58:23.840 We can't really even use a term and apply the 1:58:24.000 --> 1:58:27.360 term suffering to them because you just don't know. And 1:58:27.400 --> 1:58:29.760 I mean, look at how individuals are different. You might 1:58:29.840 --> 1:58:32.520 suffer when we're out there in Alaska in the rain 1:58:32.640 --> 1:58:35.560 and it's shitty and you have a suffering sensation. I 1:58:35.680 --> 1:58:38.760 might not. I might relish that, and and and and 1:58:38.760 --> 1:58:41.200 and do well in it, right, and so like it's 1:58:41.560 --> 1:58:44.160 and it's we bring up these things were like we're like, oh, well, 1:58:44.360 --> 1:58:46.760 we feel better about it, and sure we do, but 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:50.400 it's like this made up fantasy really that like it's 1:58:50.400 --> 1:58:53.520 in our own heads that we now feel better about 1:58:53.520 --> 1:58:55.240 this thing that we're doing where we really don't have 1:58:56.640 --> 1:58:59.440 like there's just no basis to it because we don't know. 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:01.720 You could say in the experience. You can say the 1:59:01.760 --> 1:59:06.760 same thing though about all fair chase philosophy. Totally no, 1:59:06.920 --> 1:59:09.440 And I agree, like it's something that we've made up 1:59:09.680 --> 1:59:11.840 and we decided that those are the rules that we're 1:59:11.840 --> 1:59:14.040 going to play by. Yeah, well, that that's what ethics is. 1:59:15.840 --> 1:59:20.520 An animal rights ethicist that I spoke with, the guy 1:59:20.560 --> 1:59:23.160 that's interviewed in the Stars in This Guy documentary, he 1:59:25.440 --> 1:59:27.760 one of the things he tries not try it out. 1:59:27.760 --> 1:59:29.120 I mean, one of the things you explained to me 1:59:29.400 --> 1:59:30.920 is he's like, look at the way are like the 1:59:30.960 --> 1:59:35.680 way the country handles human rights. All we recognize that 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:39.520 all people have rights. It's not we don't base out 1:59:39.600 --> 1:59:43.760 your rights like an American's rights recognized by the government. 1:59:43.920 --> 1:59:45.960 We don't go like, oh yeah, but you're not that smart, 1:59:46.080 --> 1:59:51.320 so you don't have them, or um, you know, you're 1:59:51.360 --> 1:59:54.400 handicapped in some way, so you don't have them. It's 1:59:54.440 --> 1:59:56.720 just that we extend them. We agree on these ideas 1:59:56.760 --> 2:00:00.120 that all people are created equal have these things. And 2:00:00.200 --> 2:00:04.760 so that's what makes him uncomfortable with this idea. Well, 2:00:04.840 --> 2:00:09.480 I wouldn't do it too dear, um, but I would 2:00:09.520 --> 2:00:11.560 do it to a fish. But he does a better, 2:00:11.960 --> 2:00:14.320 far better job of articulating this than I do. But 2:00:14.520 --> 2:00:15.960 I'm kind of doing like such a bad job. I 2:00:15.960 --> 2:00:18.680 almost regret bringing it up. But you get the point. No, no, absolutely, 2:00:18.720 --> 2:00:22.080 And I'm glad you mentioned him because his segment in 2:00:22.120 --> 2:00:25.080 that film absolutely informed by thinking on this. I thought 2:00:25.160 --> 2:00:28.680 I thought that was a super interesting inclusion to the 2:00:29.040 --> 2:00:31.960 your discussion of hunting. Yeah, he's a good dude, like 2:00:31.960 --> 2:00:37.280 an interesting well spoken um looks the part of a philosopher. 2:00:38.080 --> 2:00:41.160 He's an interesting guy. Oh that the human hierarchy of 2:00:41.320 --> 2:00:47.560 animals is something that I find really terrible. It's you. You, 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:49.520 you'd get a lot of advantage out of that. You know. 2:00:51.200 --> 2:00:56.000 Do I get a personally know what he's saying? You do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, sure, 2:00:56.040 --> 2:01:00.000 I know what. I know what you've been eating. Um 2:01:00.000 --> 2:01:02.640 all right, seth, sorry, um, just so we don't have 2:01:02.640 --> 2:01:05.200 to deal with it next time we podcast E K G. May. 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:07.920 I just did a quick search, read three quick different articles. 2:01:08.120 --> 2:01:11.280 And they do because the main purpose is to do 2:01:11.320 --> 2:01:14.160 it quickly to end up with a better quality flesh. 2:01:14.440 --> 2:01:16.880 And so there's a spike driven usually right, that's right 2:01:17.720 --> 2:01:22.000 to kill it and then the process of bleeding and 2:01:22.240 --> 2:01:25.320 severing the spinal Helen Choe Helen Show and her boyfriend 2:01:25.760 --> 2:01:31.200 do it, and they have a special spike. That's right. 2:01:31.240 --> 2:01:33.200 I forgot all about it. He's got a special spike 2:01:33.280 --> 2:01:36.280 and a special wire and he takes the special spike 2:01:36.400 --> 2:01:38.160 and puts it in a special place in the fish's 2:01:38.160 --> 2:01:41.040 head and then runs the wire up. That's exactly right. 2:01:42.080 --> 2:01:44.000 I would think he's got like a little special driver 2:01:44.120 --> 2:01:48.520 for a spike. This is very particular about the placement 2:01:48.560 --> 2:01:50.560 of said spike. Now that I think about it, I'm 2:01:50.560 --> 2:01:53.240 glad you brought that up. The picture here looks very 2:01:53.280 --> 2:01:56.520 much like were you fishing with us out there? We 2:01:57.840 --> 2:02:02.800 had the fish raw? Was it especially good? It's good, man, 2:02:02.840 --> 2:02:04.600 we had a lot of it. It's a bummer when 2:02:04.600 --> 2:02:05.760 you get back to the dock and most of your 2:02:05.800 --> 2:02:11.360 fishes are eating up. Yeah, living in the moment um 2:02:11.520 --> 2:02:19.600 anything else, Yeah, no, seth bad. You'd be a bison hunter, 2:02:20.080 --> 2:02:22.120 I know. And you could have gone down and tried 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:26.160 to implore them to extend the season. Yeah. I tried. 2:02:26.280 --> 2:02:29.520 I know I tried that. But no word of it, 2:02:31.120 --> 2:02:32.680 not not that I've heard of yet. I feel like, 2:02:32.680 --> 2:02:35.080 if it was gonna happen, what happened, right, Yeah, I 2:02:35.120 --> 2:02:41.440 think so, Sam. Final thoughts concluders, you know, I'm talked out. Really, 2:02:42.200 --> 2:02:45.760 you got water coming in over your waiters, bro. No, 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:47.920 I think it's good. I'll stay. I'll keep my feet 2:02:47.960 --> 2:02:49.360 on the bottom. You did a great job, man, I 2:02:49.360 --> 2:02:51.720 don't want to do it. Someone had to do it. Yeah. 2:02:51.760 --> 2:02:53.320 I felt I felt like it was I felt like 2:02:53.600 --> 2:02:57.280 it was something you know, in the space we exist 2:02:57.320 --> 2:03:00.400 in as the company that we are, I felt like 2:03:00.440 --> 2:03:02.720 somebody had to talk about it, and I I didn't 2:03:02.720 --> 2:03:04.840 want to put that on anyone else, So I decided 2:03:04.880 --> 2:03:06.480 to do it myself. And it was. It's been. It's 2:03:06.480 --> 2:03:10.360 been a fascinating, a fascinating process, and uh, I hope 2:03:10.360 --> 2:03:14.040 people understand that trying my best to to give you 2:03:14.080 --> 2:03:16.800 the most accurate version of the truth and I'm not 2:03:16.840 --> 2:03:20.440 trying to preference it either way, will continue to be fascinating. 2:03:20.600 --> 2:03:24.760 It will continue to be fascinating. Miles Maulty, I'm gonna 2:03:24.760 --> 2:03:27.160 echo the praise that you've given Sam. I think you 2:03:27.160 --> 2:03:28.720 did a really good job of that piece. I think 2:03:28.760 --> 2:03:31.080 that's a really hard one to do, and I'm glad 2:03:31.080 --> 2:03:34.240 it didn't fall to me. You grad to find about 2:03:34.320 --> 2:03:38.600 flopping perch that that one. I feel like I can 2:03:38.640 --> 2:03:40.680 get my head around and I will piss off a 2:03:40.760 --> 2:03:45.160 lot fewer people. Yeah, you never know, though, You'll always 2:03:45.160 --> 2:03:48.320 find someone to get mad. I'm good at pissing people off. 2:03:48.960 --> 2:03:53.880 I've done that my whole career. Okay, do you want 2:03:53.920 --> 2:03:58.160 me to clarify my hierarchy of animals statement? I was, 2:03:59.040 --> 2:04:03.160 it's I is just excluding the human animal from that equation. 2:04:03.360 --> 2:04:05.960 Oh I thought you're talking about position at the top 2:04:06.000 --> 2:04:09.080 of the higherarchy. No, no, it just it really bothers 2:04:09.080 --> 2:04:12.480 me where it's like, well, yeah, but that one special 2:04:12.560 --> 2:04:15.600 you know, it goes in the charismatic Magafana argument that 2:04:15.640 --> 2:04:18.000 we always talk about. It just drives me crazy that 2:04:18.080 --> 2:04:22.200 people are so disconnected from what food is, so disconnected 2:04:22.280 --> 2:04:26.880 from the animals, yet they feel like glue trapping mice 2:04:26.920 --> 2:04:33.800 and ship like that. Yeah, slapping the glue trapping mice 2:04:33.880 --> 2:04:36.120 and getting worked up because some guys eating deer somewhere. 2:04:36.400 --> 2:04:40.000 Yeah yeah, But I mean we play we play into 2:04:40.080 --> 2:04:44.200 that too on some level. I mean, most hunters get 2:04:44.240 --> 2:04:48.400 weird about, you know, when to eat a monkey, Oh yeah, 2:04:48.600 --> 2:04:51.280 or dog? Yeah, dude, I'm telling you what. Everyone bleeds 2:04:51.280 --> 2:04:55.160 in the hierarchy. Yeah, I put monkeys on the thing. Well. 2:04:55.200 --> 2:04:57.280 I remember when we were at the fish shack years 2:04:57.280 --> 2:05:02.960 ago and your oldest boy was challenging the hierarchy. He 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:08.600 was scooping up all these little eels and hermit crabs 2:05:08.640 --> 2:05:10.800 and stuff, and he'd get them all situated in bucket, 2:05:10.840 --> 2:05:13.400 and he'd have like little caves and stuff for him, 2:05:13.440 --> 2:05:16.520 and then every morning everything could just be belly up 2:05:16.520 --> 2:05:20.000 in that bucket, you know. And uh, that kind of 2:05:20.040 --> 2:05:24.080 everybody kind of got together and I was like, all right, um, 2:05:24.240 --> 2:05:27.360 wouldn't it be good at the end of the day. 2:05:28.040 --> 2:05:32.200 At the end of the day. But he flipped about 2:05:32.560 --> 2:05:37.640 se cucumbers cucumbers. So his hierarchy is that like fish, eels, 2:05:37.760 --> 2:05:41.800 crabs or gunnals gunnalfish just look like an eel that 2:05:41.960 --> 2:05:47.480 somehow the lowly c cucumber like dassn't be touched, but 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:55.560 he will suffocate innumerable other creatures and artificial like aquarium settings. 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:59.240 Perhaps the least cute and at least like least human 2:06:00.400 --> 2:06:03.480 being there is a c cucumber just doesn't look like anything. 2:06:03.520 --> 2:06:05.720 It looks like something that has a doctor in his mind. 2:06:05.720 --> 2:06:07.880 It was like, how could you hurt such a thing? 2:06:08.840 --> 2:06:10.720 I need to go and dump out all the dead 2:06:10.760 --> 2:06:14.640 stuff from my bucket. I'll tell you he's not he's 2:06:14.640 --> 2:06:18.520 not interesting. Putting a perch back. No, no, no, he 2:06:18.600 --> 2:06:22.120 was upset with me yesterday. He doesn't like that kind 2:06:22.160 --> 2:06:25.920 of stuff at all. I got no concluders. Did ever 2:06:26.000 --> 2:06:28.560 get a concluder in You're good except for you good 2:06:28.640 --> 2:06:32.560 almost no, I'm spent alright, guys. Thanks