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Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: boge bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything, Yanny, I gotta hit you with a

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Speaker 1: marriage advice question. All right, I'm not looking for marriage twice,

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Speaker 1: but dude was asking you know, You're like, explain your

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Speaker 1: your one to ten deal that I started, I that

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Speaker 1: I appropriated. Oh I stole it. I think from Dr

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Speaker 1: Wayne Dwyer Dire Dwyer. It's like a self help kind

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Speaker 1: of author, your self help man. My dad is so

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Speaker 1: he's He's passed along a lot of books to me, Dire.

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Speaker 1: Why am I has it slipping my mind? Nobody can

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Speaker 1: help me out here, Wayne Dire, I know, Dwayne you

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Speaker 1: recently passed away. That's Dwight Dwight. Yeah, no relation anyways,

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Speaker 1: Uh it was for him. I guess you could. Um Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Wayne Dyer, I was right. It's like a life hack

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Speaker 1: kind of a thing. Almost can you can you start

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Speaker 1: over and not say that word? But that's popular these

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Speaker 1: days and people know what I'm saying. That's what I

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Speaker 1: was hoping. We could do it without it, But I

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Speaker 1: can do it anyways. I've been doing it for I

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Speaker 1: don't know ten years, but it's a way to um

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Speaker 1: get through uh small petty arguments that maybe at the

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Speaker 1: time don't seem smaller petty with your spouse or loved one,

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Speaker 1: to get through him efficiently and move on, which he

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Speaker 1: then realized that it was probably a petty argument, and um,

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Speaker 1: it's better just to have it behind you. But the

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Speaker 1: way you do it is if you find yourself in

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Speaker 1: this situation where you're arguing about how that's the example

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Speaker 1: would be how to load the dish washer, and you're

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Speaker 1: arguing about it, and someone realized this, man, it would

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Speaker 1: be a great time to execute the one to tend

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Speaker 1: um what would you call it, like device to get

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Speaker 1: through this argument to basically you just say, all right,

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Speaker 1: how important it is to you? And at that moment

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Speaker 1: both people throw out a number one to ten, one

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Speaker 1: being I don't get ship at all, but I load

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Speaker 1: the dishwaher like that I think about it. I really

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Speaker 1: don't care. Yeah, ten being like this is so important

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Speaker 1: to me that if we don't load the dishwasher right,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be up tonight in three o'clock in the

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Speaker 1: morning thinking about it. And so everybody throws a number

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Speaker 1: out and whoever has the higher number, you just go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's obviously more important to you than it is to me.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it your way and you move on. I

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Speaker 1: found that it works because I've once I asked myself

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Speaker 1: the question realized I was arguing about twos and threes.

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Speaker 1: And I also had to work to my advantage where

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Speaker 1: I was adamant about something and my wife threw a

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Speaker 1: two or three or whatever, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, for me, it's like a nine, and

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Speaker 1: I won and she backed out and she's never brought

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Speaker 1: it up again. But you have to be fair. You

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Speaker 1: can't always be throwing out eights and nines. Well, this

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Speaker 1: dude that rolled in, he shot the biggest meal deer

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Speaker 1: of his life with his little boy. Okay, with his

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Speaker 1: little boy, and he's like, yeah, I'm putting it right

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Speaker 1: in the living room with my other ones. And she's like, uh, okay,

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Speaker 1: he already had some up and he's gonna add it.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole long story about what's there not there

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Speaker 1: and all that, but just the gist of it is

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Speaker 1: he wants it there. She's like, uh um. So they

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Speaker 1: do the trick that they that you taught them, and

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Speaker 1: she throws an eleven. But then he's like, hey, so

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Speaker 1: and so he's throwing eleven back. So at that point

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Speaker 1: you're just in a regular fight. Yeah, I just know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's gloves off. Obviously, just go back to like sleeping

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Speaker 1: on the couch and you can combine this with your

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Speaker 1: hand holding trick. Yeah, we haven't talked about that on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I feel like I'm just getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of marriage advice out of out of this whole deal.

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Speaker 1: This is Miles Nulty talking. Not this, No, this is

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Speaker 1: Miles Nulti talking. Not that I'm aware of. But I

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Speaker 1: have been called Nick my entire life because yeah, dude,

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you what, man, Prince of Tides the book,

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Speaker 1: He's not in the book, he's in the movie. Of course,

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Speaker 1: there's some good hunting effiicient stuff in Prince of Tides, man.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the the Nicknolty thing was fine in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: but then when you had the whole d u I

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Speaker 1: thing that was posted all over you know, social media

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Speaker 1: and the Internet, that that didn't go so well. Pull

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Speaker 1: a cork. I didn't know that. Yeah, he got arrested

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Speaker 1: in his h It was it was a big story.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a while ago. But Nick Nolty

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Speaker 1: used to be cool. He's not anymore. My kids are

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Speaker 1: watching a movie the air night on a movie night. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And he was voicing a dog, voicing a like old

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Speaker 1: wise dog. Uh. Where were we? Oh, there's an irregular fight.

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Speaker 1: But the trick, this is my dad's trick when when

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Speaker 1: one is fighting with their spouse. He likes to do it.

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Speaker 1: And he would do this, Yeah, he likes to do

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Speaker 1: it where you hold hands. You have to hold hands

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Speaker 1: and fight, which changes the fight. It does reach across

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Speaker 1: the table and hold hands and then be like I'm

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Speaker 1: hanging up that son of a bitch and deer right

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Speaker 1: or however you're gonna go about it. The thing we

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Speaker 1: were talking there day, Kal and Joanni, you were in

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Speaker 1: on this about whether it's okay or not okay to

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Speaker 1: name you're shooting irons or your bow or whatever. And

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Speaker 1: I was saying, I don't, but I had my halib.

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Speaker 1: It rod was called the widow Maker, and but I

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Speaker 1: didn't name it that, but it just came with the

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Speaker 1: name which I used. The man that named it dubbed

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Speaker 1: at the widow Maker, and this guy looked it up

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Speaker 1: and he's saying, you know, there's various things, are there?

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Speaker 1: Some people refer to a particular type of vary. Hense

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Speaker 1: Bong hit as a widow maker. He found there's a

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Speaker 1: disturbing sexual practice called the widow maker, which I'm not

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Speaker 1: privy due. But he says, what he thinks you're getting at.

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Speaker 1: I was saying, it means that you're gonna catch I

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Speaker 1: thought it meant you're gonna catch Maile Hallibate thereby widowing yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I can see I can there other interpretations. I

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Speaker 1: know that sting. So you're you're yeah. He gets into

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Speaker 1: this deal. Uh, you gotta introduce yourself. We're gonna get

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Speaker 1: to you real big. But he said, what it means

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Speaker 1: is you're gonna like the rod so much that you're

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Speaker 1: it will effectively widow your spouse because you'll be fishing

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Speaker 1: so often. UM. Got an email from a guy. This

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Speaker 1: is interesting. He was zapped on the ankle as a kid.

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Speaker 1: He was in Custer State Park in South Dakota, got

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Speaker 1: zapped on the ankle by a prairie rattlesnake. UM. Within seconds,

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Speaker 1: he was temporarily paralyzed and the weirdest thing. He says,

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Speaker 1: he was left with nothing but his sense of hearing

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Speaker 1: whoa whoa, yea almost lost his life. And there's this

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Speaker 1: whole other story about the the dude that helped him out,

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Speaker 1: and in the way that he felt that the state

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Speaker 1: part sort of didn't didn't didn't seem to want the

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Speaker 1: news to get out. I don't know, but but I

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Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting story. UM got some We

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Speaker 1: got hate mail. I never I don't talk a whole

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Speaker 1: lot about hate man. We got an interesting hate mail

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Speaker 1: from a guy who was piste, but he's pissed by

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Speaker 1: handful things. He's pissed that we wear forty dollar underwear,

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Speaker 1: which I don't understand because I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: I I know, like I didn't know how much my

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Speaker 1: underwear cost. My underwear costs nine dollars. I'm not to

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Speaker 1: look mine up. I have what's called a very casile

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Speaker 1: which is a problem in your scroll, and it feels

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Speaker 1: a lot better if I wear I don't wear tidy

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Speaker 1: whities that wear black tidy Whitey's three for twenty seven dollars.

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Speaker 1: Chet referring to the first light Boxers yeaheal problem. So

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Speaker 1: he's pinning on me. If I did I would just

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Speaker 1: tell him because I'm gonna get some more of the

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Speaker 1: things that he's mad about. But that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things he's mad about. Expensive underwear. Yeah, I think you're

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Speaker 1: unfortunately you're just looking at those as underwear. They functioned

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Speaker 1: just fine a shorts on the occasion. Um, I've liked

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Speaker 1: them alone many times. And uh, you know, for plane

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Speaker 1: travel all the way up through riding a horse and

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Speaker 1: mountain biking and all that stuff. Um, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't stink so bad. Yeah, And you can wear the

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Speaker 1: same things for six seven days and and I do regularly.

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Speaker 1: So but that's his great. Yeah, here's the weird thing

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Speaker 1: about this dude. He he says he's he's drinking beer

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Speaker 1: at c Tech and acknowledges that he's probably had too many.

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Speaker 1: How much does an airport beer? So I don't get

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Speaker 1: it Like That's that's where this guy's letter becomes really funny,

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Speaker 1: because another main gripe of his is that he doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel that non residents should be able to apply for

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Speaker 1: He's mad that we talk about and have friends who

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Speaker 1: and that we apply for nonresident big game tax, especially

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Speaker 1: for like limited draw stuff. He thinks that this is

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Speaker 1: bad because a lot of people can't afford that stuff

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Speaker 1: and you apparently he feels it only a taxpayer, like

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Speaker 1: you should have to pay taxes in a state, two

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Speaker 1: hunting the state if it's for limited draw stuff. But

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Speaker 1: again he's talking about like the working man. But again

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Speaker 1: you're buying too many airport beers. I always feel them

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Speaker 1: with people. It's like if you honestly can't afford if

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Speaker 1: you're alive in America today and have a vehicle in

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Speaker 1: the house, I could come in and analyze your budget

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Speaker 1: and find the money for you to do an out

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Speaker 1: of state tag. I have often said, like myself personally,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that I write off as unaffordable,

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Speaker 1: but if I looked at my yearly beer budget, the

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Speaker 1: money is more than likely right there. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: honest could drink it for a year. I was conversing

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Speaker 1: with his wife about this, Well, I haven't yet, how

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Speaker 1: do you? I was, actually, this is yeah, I'm in

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Speaker 1: the midst he haven't done it yet. That's right, Uh,

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Speaker 1: next year in can say that, But it's your intention

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Speaker 1: right now to take a year off of booze. It

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Speaker 1: is as I look to get back into it. He's

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Speaker 1: looking to get out of it, and his wife was

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Speaker 1: observing to me, um, just the observation of of not

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Speaker 1: having to buy all that beer, and she said, this

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Speaker 1: kid can do whatever. This guy like think about it

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Speaker 1: actually like impacts the bottom line. Yeah, well boxers and

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Speaker 1: I P A s are not cheap. So and then

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Speaker 1: he was also mad. Yeah, he talks about how I

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Speaker 1: have a d h D and I mean narcissist. UM

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Speaker 1: guy wrote in something funny. He was saying that we

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Speaker 1: were talking about button box, like do button bucks ever

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Speaker 1: shed their buttons? And and a lot of people wrote

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Speaker 1: it in fact, like send pictures and stuff. This guy

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Speaker 1: tells this funny story where he him and his old

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Speaker 1: man killed the button buck once and it shed it's

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Speaker 1: buttons in their vehicle as they're handling it, so he

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Speaker 1: saves them. He hears us talk on the podcast about

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Speaker 1: whether button bucks ever shed the hardened piece, goes to

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Speaker 1: get his to take a photo of him, can't find him,

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Speaker 1: asked his wife, have you seen my two little things?

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Speaker 1: She says, I didn't what the hell those were? And

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Speaker 1: I threw him out. So he's bummed about that. UM

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Speaker 1: emails coming in lately about Janice not getting the respect

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Speaker 1: he deserves and not being properly appreciated. And someone wrote

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Speaker 1: in the best I can tell, this is a poem

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Speaker 1: about honest. Have you seen this? Does it say he's

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Speaker 1: not getting respect from no? I feel like I assume

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Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, he feels the honest doesn't

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Speaker 1: get the appreciation he deserves. In fact, the guy that

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Speaker 1: wrote the big hate mail about me having a d

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Speaker 1: h D and stuffering from narcissism, he also said something

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Speaker 1: like you gotta have all those people around you to

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Speaker 1: save you from bears. So he's not again he's referring

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Speaker 1: to he's referring to be honest. Uh Now, I hold

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Speaker 1: the creation of Sam McGhee and the shooting of Dan

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Speaker 1: McGrew as sort of like epinnacle of American poetry. Me too,

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Speaker 1: Like there's no better poem ever been written. So with

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Speaker 1: that as the here here's I'll read a little bit. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's long, more imperturbable than a stoic philosopher, more patient

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Speaker 1: than job as, brave as a lion, a sharp eyed

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Speaker 1: as a mountain eagle. Women at dorm, critters fear him

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Speaker 1: in action? How like an angel? Yeah? Like this in action?

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Speaker 1: How how oh in appreciation, In apprehension, how like a god?

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Speaker 1: He goes on. Another guy wrote in talking about how

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Speaker 1: bad I feel lucky just to be sitting next to

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Speaker 1: But then another guy writes in about how bad you honest?

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Speaker 1: Is it math? Well, the poem didn't say anthing about maskills,

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Speaker 1: I mean math, how bad? Remember were talking about in

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Speaker 1: Ohio if you shoot a buck, and it's like how

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Speaker 1: Ohio rates the penalties for poaching, and that if you

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Speaker 1: shoot a trophy class animal, they want to make it

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Speaker 1: a lot worse for you than if you shot a

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Speaker 1: forkey and they have this formula. Do you still have

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Speaker 1: the formula on you? I'd be able to find it quickly.

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Speaker 1: You made it. You you use it. You made a

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Speaker 1: mistake in a term, in a term you used in

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Speaker 1: a man and a teacher, a calculus teacher wrote in

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Speaker 1: about it. You said, okay, so you take the gross score.

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Speaker 1: Here's the formula. You already have it. Yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: realized to have in front of me. You take the

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Speaker 1: gross Boone and Crockett's score of an animal, and just

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Speaker 1: real quick, remind people how you determine the like what

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Speaker 1: are the measurements when you when we talk about this

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Speaker 1: U there's a whole bunch of measurements, but it's basically

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Speaker 1: the lengths of both main beams depending on how many

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Speaker 1: places you can get it. There's mass measurements that go

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Speaker 1: around the main beams, and then the length of the

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Speaker 1: times as well as the inside spread. It wouldn't be mass. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: circumference measurements and in the length of all the times.

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Speaker 1: You had this all up, and there's a couple different

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Speaker 1: systems for doing this, right. Is there total overlap between

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Speaker 1: Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young or is there

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Speaker 1: a difference the scoring systems. I'm pretty sure it's total.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the same. Yeah, I think it's as

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Speaker 1: far as methodology of But then the sci is a

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Speaker 1: different is My brother is a proponent of. He wants

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Speaker 1: to establish a system which might be in use somewhere.

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Speaker 1: He thinks that there's only one measurement. It should only

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Speaker 1: be water displacement. I've heard that. I've got a friend

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Speaker 1: in Idaho is a really serious shed hunter, and he's

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Speaker 1: found the sheds off the same crazy Buck for like

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Speaker 1: the last five years straight, both sides. It's awesome. He's

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Speaker 1: just got a stack of them. But it wouldn't score

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Speaker 1: anything on either Sei or Boone and Crockett because it's

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Speaker 1: just they look like moose anglers that stick forward. It's

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Speaker 1: just so massive and palmated. But it's not long and

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Speaker 1: it's not wide. But he was telling me about the

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Speaker 1: water displacement and how it would do very well. Be like,

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Speaker 1: that's his view. His perspective is if it's big, it's

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Speaker 1: just big. Dip it in the water. How much water

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Speaker 1: does it displace? And there you see who's the biggest

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Speaker 1: that if he drew a giant club, you could potentially anyhow.

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Speaker 1: Uh So you score up the deer and then you

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Speaker 1: take one off the score. So let's say he's a

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Speaker 1: real whopper, and I think they only start at one.

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Speaker 1: So in that case, you acts a hundred, so you

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Speaker 1: square then times that by a buck sixty five and

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Speaker 1: you create the and that's what the finest. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this guy killed this big whopper white tail,

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Speaker 1: and the fine was twenty seven thousand dollars. You have

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Speaker 1: a thousand bucks for the add ons. Uh you increduckly,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even catch this. You described it as exponential,

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Speaker 1: that it grows exponentially. Apparently, Well so I used the

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Speaker 1: term exponential when something is being squared. It's not exponential.

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Speaker 1: That function is quadratic quad radical. So he had his

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Speaker 1: uh calculus kids make a calculator for us so we

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Speaker 1: could like type in any number and to do it.

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Speaker 1: And he said he also made a calculator that if

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Speaker 1: you use Janice's method, if you use the honest method

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Speaker 1: and got away from a quadratic system and went to

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Speaker 1: an exponential system, uh, a one buck would okay. He

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Speaker 1: he made an exponential system and and rated it so

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Speaker 1: that the one buck scores the same on the quadratic

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Speaker 1: and the exponential. And then he ran, what would happen

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Speaker 1: if you killed a real whopper, a two fifty inch

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Speaker 1: white tail, if it was exponential, Hi, you would have

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Speaker 1: a one point three million dollars five. With the quadratic system,

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Speaker 1: your two white tail would get you a thirty seven

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Speaker 1: thousand dollar fine. How much familiarity, uh, you guys have

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Speaker 1: with North Dakota? Got some kN from North Dakota. It's

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Speaker 1: about it. You don't hunt it? No hunted, damn close.

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Speaker 1: I'm hunted looking over into it. I got Northern Pike

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Speaker 1: on bluegilld jigs over there one time that was pretty exciting,

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Speaker 1: just throwing out nothing but a jig head and popping

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Speaker 1: it back and I was catching like hammer handle. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's a bill there right now in the North Dakota

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Speaker 1: Senate State Senate to make it that I'm approached the

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Speaker 1: wrong way right now in North Dakota, you a landowner

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Speaker 1: needs to actually post his land no trespassing. Like if

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Speaker 1: you're in North Dakota and you see private land that

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Speaker 1: isn't posted, you can go on it. And I guess

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Speaker 1: oftentimes there will be like large properties and someone might

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Speaker 1: post along the roads or whatever, but you can oftentimes

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Speaker 1: find um landowners who don't bother to post it, and

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Speaker 1: it's just understood that you can hunt it or in

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Speaker 1: people that try to post it don't do the thorough

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Speaker 1: enough job, I guess, and people find, you know, find

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Speaker 1: place where it didn't he wasn't a posted according to law,

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Speaker 1: and then therefore you're allowed to access it. And there's

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Speaker 1: a bill in the North Dakota Senate to change the

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Speaker 1: law so that becomes an automatically posted state, meaning the

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Speaker 1: landowner has no obligation like tell you you can't go

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Speaker 1: on it. Just understood if it's private, you can't go

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Speaker 1: on it without permission. I can see both sides of

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Speaker 1: that one. Uh um. Another interesting thing from a guy.

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Speaker 1: He was hunting in Oregon and got a bad hit

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Speaker 1: on a bowl. He said he took a longish, longish shot.

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Speaker 1: At what point does the shot become longish? I suppose

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Speaker 1: if you start question that would be very long if

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Speaker 1: you start questioning. I don't know if he felt those

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Speaker 1: longest in hindsight, or if he felt those longish when

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Speaker 1: he was going to pull layer back. He takes longest shot,

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Speaker 1: uses the wrong pin, it's high, squaring the shoulder, gets

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Speaker 1: a couple of inches of penetration. Uh. On a whim.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to an Oregon An Oregon hunter Facebook

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Speaker 1: page and describes his uh insert broadhead combo. He says, Hey,

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Speaker 1: if anyone hunting this year we're to encounter this, let

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Speaker 1: me know. Ten days later, guy sends him a photo

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Speaker 1: telling him he was six inches high of his broad

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00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 1: head and this bowl. This guy shot this bull twelve

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Speaker 1: miles due north of where he hit it in a

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Speaker 1: different unit. Wow, it crossed? Is it Grand Rond or no? Wrong?

344
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,360
Speaker 1: It is ron ron ron across the Grand Round River

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Speaker 1: twelve miles away ten days later, scared it pretty bad,

346
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Speaker 1: or he's just all doing elk type stuff, or he's like,

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Speaker 1: I am out of here. Man on the upper end

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Speaker 1: of that's just that giant plateau be kind of easy walking,

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Speaker 1: but twelve miles in between the plateaus is pretty rugged. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Up on top top by like the big the big

351
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: gorge there is amazing Yeah, like down uh Joseph Canyon

352
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Speaker 1: and all that stuff is un unbelievable good for more.

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Speaker 1: Lots of people rolled in. We're talking about can you

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Speaker 1: really slip on banana peels? Lots of people rolled in

355
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: about slipping on banana peels, first hand accounts of people

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Speaker 1: slipping on banana peals. One guy feels it's such a

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00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: problem that banana peles should be banned. He says, He's like,

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Speaker 1: if I'll say this, like if lawn dart still are illegal,

359
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 1: you should not be allowed to have banana peels. That's

360
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: really interesting because if you get an upgrade in uh,

361
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Speaker 1: your flying service of choice, typically the snack basket includes bananas,

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Speaker 1: So I mean, but lower class people are not permitted

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Speaker 1: to have bananas. They might be irresponsible with the bananas

364
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 1: are the most eaten fruit in the world. We were

365
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 1: doing kids trivia last night. Back in two thousand seventeen,

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Speaker 1: Dude Massachusetts, an angler Massachusetts catches a four hundred pound

367
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Speaker 1: blue fin tuna fifteen days after the season ends. It's

368
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Speaker 1: like a ten thollar fish. Decides to keep the fish,

369
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Speaker 1: but it's hard to like hide a four pound tuna.

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00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: The words spreads around the boat, Doc, But this fella

371
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Speaker 1: is running around with a tuna. At some point he

372
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Speaker 1: gets scared and he can't get it in his truck,

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Speaker 1: but he ties it to his truck and drags it

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Speaker 1: out into the woods. Okay, he gets a federal fine

375
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Speaker 1: of fifteen thousand dollars for killing this tuna. Then just

376
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Speaker 1: now the in the in uh, you know, putting Alton

377
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: the wounds. His local municipality doubles around and hits him

378
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: for another thousand and fines for littering and disposing of

379
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: waste from a vehicle. They're like, and so you didn't

380
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: learn your lesson, we will now find you an additional

381
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: one dollars for charges related to you dragging a blue

382
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: fin tuna out into the woods. That is very interesting.

383
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: I think that's totally fine for I'm not criticizing I

384
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: think that fine should be higher considering the value of

385
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: those fish and that fishery and the waste that should

386
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: be k for a white tail. And here you have

387
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: like here you have like a fairly written species, like

388
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: a fairly depleted species. Yeah, and it wasn't if we

389
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: we've fold around that article about that bluefin the first

390
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: bluefin in the season for a million bucks. Over a

391
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: million bucks. Yes, just made the Japanese fish markets because

392
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: they had the right at content anything. Yeah, and it

393
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: was the first absolute dude got a million for a

394
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: blue fin, well over a million if I remember correct. Yeah,

395
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: and this guy like owns a like a chain of

396
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: sushi restaurants over there and is known to be a

397
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: big guy with fat wallet. I believe it was the story.

398
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: But sure that wasn't the first one. No go for

399
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,239
Speaker 1: over a million, No, no ship, And I knew they

400
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: were like extremely valuable. But I want to know blue

401
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: fin tuna goes for three million at first twenty nineteen

402
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: sale at Tokyo market, how many pounds with the fish?

403
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: Because I know that they'll go like I was talking

404
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: to a guy that sold some blue fins over the

405
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 1: year and over the years, and you take it down right,

406
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: away and they pull a plug out of that thing,

407
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: and I don't know what they do, but they're very

408
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: interested in fat and I'm sure a host of other

409
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: color fat and all that. And you either got gold

410
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: or you don't have gold. Yeah, and he says it's

411
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: hard to tell, like he couldn't tell. What are they?

412
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: Damn sure? No. I was just watching that documentary Guo

413
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: Dreams of Sushi. Very good. But oh man, it was

414
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: amazing to see them go to the fish market and

415
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: the guy's like, you know, to an aside, he's like,

416
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: I wish there was some actual tuna here, and there's

417
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: like a warehouse full of these big, giant, beautiful looking

418
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: tuna and there's just it was all garbage to him. Yeah,

419
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: and it's amazing. Cut him down to where they can

420
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: like stack them like cordwould, right, um, the cores Andani

421
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: used that learned that the cores. Yeah, this guy was

422
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: this blue fin tune that they found out in the

423
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: woods was missing. They had its head cut where to

424
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: leave the collar on. Yeah, the core. I mean when

425
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: you just I'm dying to know what was going through

426
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: the psychological burden on this man from where he's like Nope,

427
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: screw it, I'm hauling into the woods. I'm keeping it

428
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: on the boat. I'm not turning it back or was

429
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: it like bleeding from the gills And he was just like, man,

430
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: why would I throw this thing back to the sharks? Well,

431
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 1: that's the difference between dumping it out. That's like you

432
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: call in fish and game or you just caught the

433
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: line once you realize what you got. Yeah, but I

434
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: just wonder if there's something that made him be like, Okay,

435
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: screw kick the doors open and haul this thing on.

436
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm keeping it because then and it's not his boat apparently,

437
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: because I'm sure they would have dinged his It could

438
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: have taken his damn boat. I don't know what. I

439
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: don't know if they did that to poach those bear cubs. Man,

440
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: they got their boat taken away, and I think the

441
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: truck they used to pull the boat. Yes, is that

442
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: state by state though, whether or not they can confiscate

443
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: gear for poaching, I don't know. I don't I don't

444
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: mean don't know, but yeah, that guy had to have

445
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: just been a mess. Then, like all that compounds by

446
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: the time you get back to the dock and you're like, oh, man,

447
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: I'll just let that damn fish go. Yeah, and then

448
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: to waste it. Yeah. Oh that's sacrilegious. Man, that's weird.

449
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: That's kind of the weird part of them. Who you know,

450
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: you have the ones had to hang out with the

451
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: guy like is at some point he even abandoned the

452
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: idea that he's just gonna stake it out and put

453
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: it in a bunch of freezers. Yeah, and that's why

454
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, make that jack that fine up even further.

455
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're if you're wrestling, he's like, he's

456
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: clearly wrestling with this idea and yet chooses to do

457
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: a series of worse and worse actions. It's like, you

458
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: had a lot of opportunities to right this wrong. I

459
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: get it. But we used to break all kinds of

460
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: rules and we were little. Yeah, I don't know if

461
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: he's little. I was gonna say, I doubt this is

462
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: a kid we're talking about. I don't think this is

463
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: like a sixteen year old yesterday fishing when the sheriff

464
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: pulled up. All right, we're fishing. The county sheriff pulls up,

465
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: and I'm able to Now now I'll being where I'm

466
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: at now in life. I'm able to walk up to

467
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: the window and lean on the window and be like,

468
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: how do you boys? In the old days, if we

469
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: weren't doing something wrong at the moment, we were nervous

470
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: about what we had just been doing wrong last week,

471
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: pitchfork and salmon out from behind some beaver dam or oh,

472
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: A little part of me was still like what, I like,

473
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: where's my lights? Where's what am I do? I have

474
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: barbs on my hooks, so that doesn't matter. Here to

475
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: be drinking. Yeah, yeah, when you like you see a

476
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: copy turn the radio down. Yeah, I'm like old enough

477
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: now where I'm just like, what's up? Guy? Well, they

478
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: came up and I haven't done I haven't done anything

479
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: wrong even lately. The thing that threw me off was like,

480
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna get out and talk to you boy. Yeah,

481
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: off too. I'm like, you know what, get out and

482
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: talk to me because I haven't done anything bad in

483
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah, I'm pretty I haven't found any

484
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: salmon in the damp drainage ditch, saying shot up with

485
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: a shotgun. Hypothetically. I grabbed my license yesterday morning in

486
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: preparation for going out on the ice and actually opened

487
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: it up, double checked the expiration date. Yeah, I got it.

488
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: We're we're coming up on the expiration here. Because when

489
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: the first year I lived in Montana, I had a

490
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: game board and I was fishing downtown Missoula at the

491
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: Hollywood Holding right in front of double Tree. I saw

492
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: a game Ward and watching me with binoculars. Hollywood hole. Yeah,

493
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: because everybody's looking at you game Ward and watching me.

494
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: We been from with binoculars, like peeking around the building.

495
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, what the what's what's he doing?

496
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, you know, I left my

497
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: fishing bag in the truck. That's where my license is.

498
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: I reeled up when I saw him do that, walked

499
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: right up to him and said, hey, saw you looking

500
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: at me? Figure you want to check my license? Uh,

501
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: it's it's in my bag in the car. I needed

502
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: to grab that bag because I needed to change flies. Anyway.

503
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, great, no problem, I walk walk with you,

504
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: walks over there with me. I grabbed my bag, give

505
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: him the license. We're just shooting the ship, being real

506
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: friendly and everything, and he hands me the license back

507
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: and as I reached for it, he pulls it back

508
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: and goes, oh, wait, this is this expired last week

509
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: and writes me a hundred and thirty dollar ticket my

510
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: first year, first year living in Montana. And I was like,

511
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, there's a there's a

512
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: there's a fly shop two blocks from here. I will

513
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: literally dog there and renew my license. He's like, sorry,

514
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: flexibility here, Yeah, because he was giving you some flexibility

515
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: for not having your license on you. Yeah, he'd already

516
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: like yeah, but but but I approached him too, so

517
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: I felt I felt like, I don't know. I was

518
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: also yeah, absolutely he was in the right there and yeah,

519
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: I can see it both ways, man, Yeah, but I was,

520
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: I was just I was just maybe he really annoyed

521
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: by it. I wouldn't play it in court. Did you win?

522
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: They reduced it to the minimum fine, which was sixty

523
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: do that was worth your time? But to circle back

524
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: to the guy with the tuna, I just have to

525
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: I hope he at least took the belly meat out

526
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: of that thing, because that that bluefin belly meat is

527
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: like the most just like the buffalo. I could find

528
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: out because there's a picture of them. They had to

529
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: call in a record. They called in a record lifted

530
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: up by the tail. The picture of it sitting on

531
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: had to call it Bob's towing to come down and

532
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: get that tuned carcass. They brought it to a garden.

533
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: They brought it to a local farm to fertilize it.

534
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: Old school did day he did? They say, if he

535
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: knew that the quota was filled when he when he

536
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: put it in the boat. I don't know. I don't know.

537
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember reading that. I think you

538
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: want to bring up something, man, like what was I

539
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: going to bring up? We're talking about. I don't feel

540
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: nervous about by law enforcement people anymore. Which is good.

541
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: It's in the good shotgunning salmon bad kind and well

542
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: when they make a bunch of wrong turns, here's the

543
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: thing is, if it makes so many wrong turns that

544
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: they're in some farmers drainage ditch, we would take liberties

545
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: with them, because you're like, well, you're gonna like run

546
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: into another salmon and spawn on the gravel at this point,

547
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: like you're up Bob weirs and drainage, you know, like

548
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: you've you know, I don't know if the other salmon

549
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: want you in this? In the throwing in with him?

550
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: Here comment did the man know that the quota was filled.

551
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: I feel like you lose any opportunity for argument when

552
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: you're stashing ship in the woods, no doubt by the time.

553
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm just wondering what you know again his Yeah,

554
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: I mean too, I'm dying. Yeah, federal. Did I say federal? Federal? Yeah?

555
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: I mean, for all we know, we could be really

556
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: churching this up. And the guys like, listen, boys, I

557
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: had a lot of Budweiser's those couple of days. You

558
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: wish I could think of what I was gonna talk about.

559
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: It was like a tied to this deal, tied to

560
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: this deal, and I was going to talk about it,

561
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: see the a D h D deal. That like narcissistic

562
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: a d D deal. Now, if I forgot something that

563
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: was gonna talk about how great I was, that would

564
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: back that dude up. I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be like, oh,

565
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, I was gonna say, is I've, you know,

566
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: very strapping? Um uh, one last thing I want to

567
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: bring up, and we're gonna talk about what we're here

568
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: to talk about. We got couple of three things. Um.

569
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: This guy is talking about how he used to hunt

570
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: scrolls and his grandpa and his grandpa they hunt scrolls

571
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: with dogs, and when it in his grandpa kept a

572
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: kit with him which was a fire making kit and

573
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: a coffee can, a tin coffee can. So when the

574
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: squirrel would hole up in a hollow tree, Grandpa would

575
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: get a fire burned in his coffee can and then

576
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: set the coffee can in there to thereby smoke the

577
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: squirrel out. And if I remember right, like, I feel

578
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: like when we were little kids, we would you know,

579
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: those smoke bombs, you get it? Fourth of July. I

580
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: feel like we do something similar with that, like sticks

581
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: in my head. But you're saying one time he's out

582
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: there with grandpa and Grandpa forgets his can, gets a fire,

583
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: ripping no can and uh starts himself with fortrest fire. Yeez,

584
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: did you get that squirst fire? Heard of it today?

585
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: I hunted the web today with old bench made and

586
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: chose the wrong answer when I was gonna just kick

587
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: out my coals or should I use the rest of

588
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: my water to douse my fire. It's like a choice

589
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: I had to make and benchmates hunt the web realistic game,

590
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: and Uh, I decided just to shuffle the coal out

591
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: because I was hunting in the Pacific Northwest and say,

592
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: nothing can fire here, And sure enough I walk away

593
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: and next thing I know, game over, forest fire giant.

594
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: So I gotta go to clarify. He didn't Okay, he

595
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: didn't start a forest fire. He burnt the whole damn

596
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: tree down. But then the fire did spread, okay, on

597
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: the lines of Pacific Northwest and fires and bad decision making.

598
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: Our good buddy Jeff Lander all uh primitive outfitting his

599
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: buddies that are floating floating a moose river um for

600
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: years and years and years. One of them dies, they

601
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,479
Speaker 1: bury his ashes underneath this prominent tree on the bank

602
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: of the river. Um. One of these years, they'd invite

603
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: Jeff to come down with them um and they they

604
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: this tree is prominent because they've called in a bunch

605
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: of moose in this same spot and it's nice and

606
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: you know, breaks all that BC drizzle and uh, they're

607
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: kind of having a peaceful moment. They're and they're they're

608
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: calling moose and Jeff has everybody's sandwiches and tinfoil and

609
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: he starts a little fire there at the base of

610
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: the tree. Swiches heat the sandwiches, they eat their lunch,

611
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: move on down the river. Somebody makes the comment of like, oh,

612
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: you're sure that fires out. The next day, Jeff has

613
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: burned down the sacred tree, so to speak, with the

614
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: ashes with the ashes under it, because he decided to

615
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: shuffle the coals instead of because he's he's in a

616
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: really wet place and it's just nothing matters, doesn't doesn't

617
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: burn by that. Yeah, that's pretty sad. Well, it kind

618
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: of gives that sacred spot even better. Story does one more?

619
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 1: One more quickie? Now, one more quickie? No, um seth

620
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: if you said anything yet? Just about the the cops

621
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: getting another vehicle? Oh yeah, uh did you tell people

622
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: about how about your ill fated one hunt of a lifetime? Oh? Um?

623
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: Drew a bison tag in Montana this year for Gardner

624
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: and talk about that. How did you feel about three

625
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: areas and three areas West Yellowstone there's Gardener and then

626
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: there's the absorka back country unit. It's like West Entrance,

627
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: North Entrance and then the back country unit. And um,

628
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: were you excited to draw that? Tex? Super excited. I

629
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: was excited. Everyone was excited. Gave them all kinds federal bullets.

630
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: Was gonna um the first year I put in for

631
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: it and drew it. UM had big plans. We talk

632
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: about what needs to happen. So the bison spend most

633
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: of their life in Yellowstone part and in the wintertime,

634
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: when the weather gets real nasty, they migrate out of

635
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: the park to find better grass. Um. You know, there's

636
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: they migrate out because there's some some animals stay in

637
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: the park. This is from what I gather from talking

638
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: with game wardens and stuff. They stay in the park.

639
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Some animals stay in the park. Um, but there's too

640
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: much pressure for you know, the park to handle that

641
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: many bikes and over the winter, so they move back.

642
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: And they're they're predisposed of roman and UM. So they

643
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: usually push out of the park. You know, the season

644
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: closes February. By that time, they're usually you know, having

645
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 1: all sorts of trouble with them and gardener and um

646
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: getting into people's backyards and destroying stuff. Well, this year,

647
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: the weather or it was pretty mild, not much snow

648
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: down there, and they didn't decided to leave the park. Yeah,

649
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: we're up in that neck of the woods yesterday and

650
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: it was like no snow. Yeah, so my bison tag

651
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: that I don't know if I say it's once in

652
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: a lifetime tag because you definitely draw it again. Yeah,

653
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: but that means different things. There's like once in a lifetime,

654
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: like the expression yeah, and then there are once in

655
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: a life once. So once in a lifetime Montana for

656
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: this tag would be like an expression right, meaning like

657
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: it's not it's not like an Idaho moose tag. Right,

658
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: that's once literally in a lifetime. If you are a

659
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: successful yes, really yeah that before that's right, draw the tag.

660
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: Got tags your opportunity. If you fill the tag, that

661
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: is your one star. What's the weight period? Apologies to

662
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: the guy who thinks you should only be able to

663
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: hunt in the state where you live, Like you can't,

664
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: let go to your own les and then go out

665
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: do you a little hunt with your uncle? That's like

666
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: no way, Um how many years if you don't, I

667
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: want to say, it's seven so long? Wait so they

668
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: never Yeah. When I talked to a game warden, no

669
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: state now he used the term state hunters because there

670
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: are tribal hunters, like a lot of the tribes exercise

671
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: treaty rights or exercise right no, come and shoot some.

672
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: I went down there one time, uh and watched the

673
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 1: nez purse shoot five of them. I think our buddy

674
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: ed Garcia, I think it was just last fall, last winter,

675
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: he was down there. He's got a cabin somewhere down there,

676
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: was driving through and saw a bunch of hunters getting

677
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: after it, and there was so many and they were

678
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: having like problems like getting all the meat out and everything,

679
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: and there's gut piles everywhere. And he went down there

680
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: and he harvested ribs and hearts and livers, all kinds

681
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: of stuff so much he's like, oh, you want a heart,

682
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: buffalo heart on the way way home and he stopped

683
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: buying dropping. I've heard of people doing that down there

684
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: in the gut piles. Well, there's none of that this year. Yeah,

685
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: not one tag holder, not one state tagle. I guess

686
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 1: a handful of tribal hunters got some early. Not one

687
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: state tag holder. Yeah, it's just not the year. He

688
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: said numbers were low in the park. Yeah, because they'll fluctuate,

689
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, like three thousand seven numbers were low in

690
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: the park, which means the pressure for grazing isn't there.

691
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: So did you gotta wait seven years now to try again?

692
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure I used to put

693
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: in for it, then I quit putting in for it

694
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: just because it just gets a little crazy. But I

695
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna start again. I'm not gonna let that

696
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: scare me off. No, I'm gonna put in for it again.

697
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: But the snow dance wasn't the year for it. Nonresident

698
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 1: where to snag that tag out for underneath? You don't

699
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: tell that guy and that don't tell the guy who's

700
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 1: all drunk at the sea tag bar on the Wyoming's

701
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: Like I blew all my money on nine dollar beers, bro,

702
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: I can't do that hunt Wyoming side that opportunity to

703
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: pursue that buffalo for a bull. I think it is

704
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: like over three grand now, Yeah, they tacked their prices

705
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: up last year. Oh the tag if you draw the

706
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: tag is three grand. Yeah. As a non resident, now

707
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: you're resident price. Uh. There's typically a pretty vast discrepancy

708
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: between your resident and nonresident prices. When anybody like to

709
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: venture a guess as to why, because they don't pay

710
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: taxes in the state. Because states raise a held lot

711
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: of money. Uh, and they fund a large portion of

712
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: their fishing game operations through the sale of non resident

713
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 1: grossly inflated price to tags maybe, and all those resident folks,

714
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: of which all of a sort of beneficiary of our

715
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: tag bryces seldom get raised. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a subsidy. Yeah,

716
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: you hunt, you hunt deer for thirty bucks, and another

717
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: guy hunts deer for six hundred bucks, and therein you

718
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: can fund a lot of wildlife work. Yes, yeah, I

719
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: do feel for this guy, though in the fact that

720
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: I have definitely been the guy doing a lot of

721
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: bitching about all the nonresident folks out of state license

722
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: plates and stuff. And oh yeah, I feel it. I

723
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: feel it. I would, I would, you know what. Sure,

724
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: Montana f w P raised something on the order of

725
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: twenty one million dollars last year on nonresident license fees.

726
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: It was like the second highest in the country, I believe.

727
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: You know what happens in the trapping world. There's like

728
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: a reciprocity thing in the trapping world where, for instance, um,

729
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: if a lot of states because because fur bears are

730
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: more like a commodity, management like a commodity, a lot

731
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: of states will prohibit nonresident fur trappers from trapping in

732
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: their state. And there's a reciprocity system where, um, if

733
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: you live in a no go state. If you live

734
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: in a if you're if you're like a trapper from

735
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: a state where your state doesn't allow non residents to

736
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: trap beaver, other states will reciprocate and not allow you. So,

737
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: for instance, in Montana, you cannot trap fur bears. No,

738
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: a nonresident cannot trap fur bears in Montana. So a

739
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: Montana person is not allowed to go over into Wyoming, Idaho,

740
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: wherever and trap someone from another state. Yeah, your state

741
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: won't let our people come. We're not gonna let your

742
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: people come. You get into a little tip for tat.

743
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: A guy wrote in like how come how come people

744
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: don't talk like why is Washington not a popular hunting

745
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: state for non residents? Like one of the things that

746
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: we start. Yeah, there's a bunch of reasons. Um, they're

747
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: extremely conservative of tag allocation. Uh, it's it's expensive just

748
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: to apply and a turn of points in Washington and

749
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: now it's three thirty dollars just for the application fee

750
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: for each one. So for like my moose coach sheep,

751
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: I guys just don't do anymore because be a thousand

752
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: bucks just down the drain, nonrefundable, nonrefundable. So some ste

753
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty dollar application fee. Some states will really

754
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: stick it to you, like to even get in is

755
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: gonna cost you. Alaska's smart, and I should say you're smart.

756
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: Their strategy is to sucker you in the applications. Not bad.

757
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: We got to buy a base license and you get

758
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: paid his fees and then you draw and you get

759
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: all excited and a zap you hard on the tag.

760
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: But then you get people who draw and can't afford

761
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: the tag, and it probably screws you up on allocations

762
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: a little bit. So some states want to be like

763
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: is he good for it or not? Sending all your money,

764
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: demonstrate that you're good for it, so that when we

765
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: give you the thing, we get our money and it

766
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: doesn't like you can wait and then later decide to

767
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: buy it or not buy it, and then we have

768
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: a better sense of who's like ready to roll. Yeah, Wyoming. Um,

769
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: you know mountain goat is a species and the bison

770
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: as well, where you can't accrue points for those, um,

771
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: But that's all the cash up front, just like if

772
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: you were to put in for any of the other

773
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: species and not and go for like the thin chance

774
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: that you might get drawn, um without the points you

775
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: throw all your all your cash up front. But yeah,

776
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: that's two thousand bucks for a goat. If you're putting

777
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 1: in for a by his sending a bowl bison too,

778
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: you're at like five grand in Wyoming. Yeah, what did

779
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: your take cost you? Bucks? It's one thousand, two undred

780
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: fifty for non rays. Once you a good pivot I do,

781
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: speaking Wyoming, you like that? That's what we learned to

782
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: call it. We just call it a segue of it.

783
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: Someone's saying it's like a pivot Larry Keene, Larry Keene

784
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: pivots uh Larry Bird for that matter. Yeah, yeah, nice? Um,

785
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: real quick, real quick issue too, real quick? Is you

786
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: know you guys are all for me? With our friend

787
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: Ben long Very when we talked about what we're gonna

788
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: talk about, when I touched on at one time touched

789
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: on what we're gonna talk about, and he emailed me

790
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: warning me not to talk about So I don't want

791
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: to talk about it because it scared me off. So

792
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: Sam Londran is gonna talk about it because I was

793
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: too intimidated. I was too intimidated to talk about it

794
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: because this is like this is like the forbidden subject.

795
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: Well that's not very narcissistic of you. Oh, if what

796
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: would I do? What would have? It will be a

797
00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: better and more narciss You know who narcissist was, Yeah, Narcissah.

798
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: You know what his story was. He found that little

799
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: looking pond, right, and what happened to him? Would just

800
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: stare at his reflection in a pond, But something bad

801
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: happened to him eventually, right, and he drowned in the

802
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: pond or something like that. He died by by by

803
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: being so obsessed with his own reflection that was his downfall.

804
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: Talk about how Narcissis died. What's his name, Narcissus, Narcissus?

805
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how he died, how he passed away?

806
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: Resting r I p rip. Yeah, he found a little

807
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: pond with a clear surface, and he liked to look

808
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: at his reflection and to be clear, this is Greek mythology. Yeah,

809
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,439
Speaker 1: because he's sitting there looking so much, and he didn't

810
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: want to disturb that perfect surface. He got thirsty. Oh,

811
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: I didn't disturb his didn't want to disturb that perfect reflection.

812
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: It's a painful death, especially the painting. He looks like

813
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: he's got his face about six inches away from the water.

814
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: That's a good story. And we're talking about not long

815
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: ago about the Greeks. Is there's a um uh, there's

816
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: this principle it's um xenia z e n i A.

817
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: I think has to do with the guest host bond.

818
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,240
Speaker 1: Like it's like somehow related to the relationship of a

819
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: flower and its pollinator. I've heard of this. I was

820
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 1: gonna name one of my daughters. Only had one named

821
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 1: after my mother, but if I had more, I wanted

822
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: to name one zena um. But yeah, it has to

823
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: do with the guest host bond, like meaning like it's

824
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: you host someone. Like let's say, uh, let's say my

825
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: father hosted your father in his home, you would owe

826
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: me still, like it's that strong the guest host bond

827
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: is that strong? What culture does that drive from? I

828
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: learned it when we were reading the Ilian in the Odyssey,

829
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: and that because it was Troy you had to do

830
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: with like you remember how the dude that you remember

831
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: how Killes kills Hector. Achilles kills Hector and drags his

832
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: body all over to damn place and Hector's dad pri

833
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: Um maybe remember Hector's dad. Hector's dad comes to beg

834
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: Achilles let me have my boy's body back and stopped

835
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: disgracing his body. And it's like all these other things

836
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: that went on with how he guilted him into it,

837
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 1: but part of it had to do with with achilles father.

838
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 1: Um was once the guest of like pri ums father,

839
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 1: and so he was somehow through this. Some some people

840
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: like there's an explanation that because of that, he's like, Okay,

841
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 1: I'll give you your boy's body back, and I'll stop

842
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: dragging it behind my chariot and making a total mess

843
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 1: out of it. Zena uh whelming in the in the

844
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: thing that one dacent speak about. It's there's a Supreme

845
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: Court case there. I want to explain to people, the

846
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: damn Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Court case. Well, now

847
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: you got me all nervous about about opening my mouth

848
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: about it, and you know which I've definitely felt throughout

849
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: the reporting on this. Do you want to know how

850
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: he You want to know the metaphor he used. I

851
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 1: used it the other night. He said it's a deep

852
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: cold river and you will get in over your waiters. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

853
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: it certainly felt that way. But it's also been a

854
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: it's been a fascinating experience diving deep into this. But

855
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: what we're talking about is the Supreme Court case horrariv. E. Wyoming,

856
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: which was heard by the United States Supreme Court on

857
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: January eight. And they haven't decided yet. No, they haven't

858
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: decided yet. Most folks anticipate a ruling coming out this

859
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: summer or this fall. But you don't really know what

860
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. This isn't funny how it takes along. Yeah,

861
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: it takes up a lot of research issues, I'm guessing. Yeah.

862
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,479
Speaker 1: And the alleged crime here happened, uh five years ago?

863
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: Lay it out? Laid out all right? What happened? Sam's

864
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: now getting he's up to his n You ordered some

865
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: hate mail to me yesterday about this, So now I'm

866
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: all nervous because Sam, right, Sam wrights. Well, let's clarify.

867
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: Sam writes an article about this, which can be found

868
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: at the mediator dot com. What's the article called. It's

869
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: called her Air of Yoming inside the elk hunting case

870
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. Uh. And he's already gotten a

871
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 1: hate mail, ye yep. But you know, I mean, it's

872
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: more people airing their biases towards us um than than

873
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: hate per se. Yeah, this was like, to be fair

874
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: to the one I'm talking about, it wasn't hate mail.

875
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: It was like being like, hey, man, here's some stuff

876
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: that you might not know. I learned. I learned a

877
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: couple of things I shouldn't. That was a bad you

878
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: know what? Me saying that it was a shitty thing

879
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: to say because it was not hate mail. It was

880
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: like being like, hey, I think you missed. You're off

881
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: the mark. He was a total dick about it, but

882
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,919
Speaker 1: he also he was, he was, he was, He wasn't. No.

883
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: He started by saying he was sorely disappointed, which is

884
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's

885
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: my mom, Like, well, I'm not I'm not mad, I'm

886
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,959
Speaker 1: just disappointed. It's amazing that people something so are really

887
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,439
Speaker 1: disappointed really easily. We got a piece of hate mail

888
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: one time because because just out to half, we use

889
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: the term like to instead of using something to be

890
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: like you're running it, you're like running whatever tripod and

891
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: a guy took the time to write about how bad

892
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: that is, so that people are like ready to be

893
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,240
Speaker 1: not happy. Yeah, they're they're, they're, they're they're they're trying

894
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: to find any small flaw within it. And you know,

895
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: I worked on this for three weeks, and I'm sure

896
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: there are are elements missing, but I you know, obviously,

897
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: my my goal as a journalist here was to put

898
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: forward the most complete, inaccurate version I could, And I

899
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: tried to write something that would walk the line of

900
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 1: like explaining this without you know, pissing off people based

901
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: on their preconceived notions of it. So I tried to

902
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: play fair. It's it's it's highly racially charged. So let's

903
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: let's back up a little bit and talk about what happened.

904
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: So there's this guy, Cleaven Herrera, who used to be

905
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: a game warden for the Crow Tribe of southeastern Montana

906
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: UM and with two fronts, with a couple of friends, Uh,

907
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: they followed a herd of elk off of the Crow

908
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: reservation across the state line into Wyoming the Big Horn

909
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: National Forest, where they killed three elk that they packed out. Uh.

910
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: The game warden who ultimately found who ultimately tracked down

911
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: this case and um brought them to to justice, if

912
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: you will, found a fourth bowl that was untouched. But

913
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: they all claimed that that was that must have been

914
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: from something else, or that he's lying or something like that. UM,

915
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: and how how did the Is it worth getting into

916
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: how the warden tracked down. I think it is worth

917
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: getting into, uh because I found that to be I

918
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 1: found that to be a fascinating element of this um.

919
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: So this this game, this warden who testified before the

920
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: before the court in Wyoming, UM, and I read through

921
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: all of that. So he was finding a lot of

922
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: poaching cases in this area. He referenced a friend of

923
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: his who's a shed hunter spending a bunch of time

924
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: up there, and this guy alone, who's not law enforcement,

925
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: reported twelve elk poaching cases in this area that year. Partly,

926
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: Buscher like like, there's one whereas a big bull um

927
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: with missing just its head and its backstraps. Um, And yeah,

928
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: I've got a I've got a quote, um it sounds

929
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: like good hunt zone. Yeah yeah, And he's like, yeah,

930
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 1: he's getting on. Then this warden said, I was getting

931
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: pretty desperate. I mean, you know, the public and trust

932
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: of game warden to enforce the game laws. The way

933
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: the vehicles were coming going, it was obvious to me

934
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: there was a possibility it was members of the Crow

935
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: tribe who response from some of this um. But the

936
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: way he actually the way he actually got to these

937
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 1: particular guys, and it sounds like they're you know, there's

938
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: probably different groups of people in the Crow tribe is

939
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: large with a large reservation. But the way you got

940
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: to these particular people, and Herrera in particular, was Herrera

941
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: sent an email to Wyoming Fishing Game asking to discuss

942
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: poaching incidents in this very area, and that was forwarded

943
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: onto this game warden, Dustin Sharma, who then reached back

944
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: out to Herrera and said, heck, yeah, I love to

945
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,959
Speaker 1: talk about that. We're having We're getting her asses kicked

946
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: out there, basically, So they met up UH on a

947
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: back road near the state line in this area and

948
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: and talked about what what their two departments could do

949
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: to collaborate UH and to try to say all this problem.

950
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: But he walked away with kind of a fishy feeling

951
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: about that meeting. So that was he, he Herrera, who

952
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: whose name carries the Supreme Court case. Yes, he reached out.

953
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: I didn't realize this even like alright, I realized, I

954
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: didn't realize the implication of it. Yeah, he initiated contact,

955
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: he did. I could I could pull up that email

956
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: if you if you wanted to see it and even

957
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: reading it and talking with you about I missed that fact. Yeah,

958
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: he sent that email. I knew there's a conversation, but

959
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's how it was initiated. Yeah,

960
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: and he voluntarily went to meet up with Dustin Sharma

961
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: at the state line. They went up and looked at

962
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: the carcass of a spike bowl that had been poached

963
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: in that area, but Shorma walked away feeling uncomfortable with

964
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: the meeting. Um. Here's here's another quote from his testimony.

965
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: He was interested in knowing who I suspected was responsible

966
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: for these poaching incidents. He was curious as to the

967
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: capabilities of our forensic laboratory and Laramie. On the way home,

968
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: I was kind of, don't know, maybe excited that I'd

969
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: be able to solve some of these cases. But by

970
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: the same token, it bothered me some of the conversations

971
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: that we had. I started thinking like I was maybe

972
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: being taken advantage of I guess. Um. So he got

973
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: home and googled Claven Herrera and found his Facebook, but

974
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: also found his postings on a brag board website called

975
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: monster mule E's dot com is it fair to call

976
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: that a bragboard. That's what a lot of other folks

977
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: have called it. But I, yeah, you know, I haven't

978
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 1: really just dude swapping info man whatever. We no, no, no,

979
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: that's part within those forms. A lot of times they'll

980
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: be sections where you swap info. But then there's also

981
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: like a thread or an arizone where all it is

982
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: It's like, I wasn't trying to preference. That's just kind

983
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: of shorthand yeah, no, no, I got you know what

984
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: I mean. But yeah, I just would hate to take

985
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: like a thing like that where people are you know,

986
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: sharing like legitimate infolture, like to look it's like like

987
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: to show pictures of I don't know, were we all

988
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: like to do that? And I guess Instagram has become

989
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: a bragboard, brag board or forum website. But uh found

990
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: a post there that Herrera had made called Goodyear on

991
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: the Crow Reservation, and there was photos of these three

992
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: elk in question, also a pronghorn and a mule deer

993
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: that other folks he knew had killed. Um but Sharma

994
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: saw looked closely at the background of the photos and

995
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: felt like they looked like they were in Wyoming. He

996
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: felt like he recognized the topography, the vegetation. UM. Obviously

997
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: he knows this area very well UH and talked about

998
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: that at length in his testimony about how familiar he

999
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: is with the landscape. UM. He said, just based on

1000
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: the limited topography and vegetation I could see from the photographs,

1001
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: I kind of had a hunch where it was at.

1002
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:54,919
Speaker 1: But I wanted to confer with some people who knew

1003
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: the area a lot better than I did. So we

1004
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: talked to some folks. He talked to that guy who

1005
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: reported all the all the poaching incidents UM. And then

1006
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: this is many months later after the snow had cleared

1007
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: because they weren't able to get up into that into

1008
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: that area in May. So this UH, the that shooting

1009
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: and the conversation between Sharma and Herrara happened in January

1010
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: and May Uh Shurma went in there with a wildlife

1011
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: investigator and print outs of these photos and they basically

1012
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: walked to the kill sites and found all the carcasses.

1013
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: He talked a lot about UM finding like the frozen

1014
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: ball of of like cud if you will, UM that

1015
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: apparently doesn't doesn't get taken by by predators when they're

1016
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: when they scavenge interrupt you real quick. Go ahead, talk

1017
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: about that seth with your special buffalo tag that you

1018
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: didn't fill. Um. So this is fascinating and they send

1019
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: you all this information when draws tagging, one of the

1020
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: rules that they want you to follow is if you

1021
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: kill one, you have to cut open the stomach. You

1022
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: cut open the stomach and spread the contents out, because

1023
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: think about it, when mug has been hunting in the area.

1024
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: Later other people go, you have this big bloated stomach,

1025
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: I mean, grizzlies and self eventually eat it. But then

1026
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: you got like that. You know, it just winds up.

1027
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: So they want you to cut it because when you

1028
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: cut it and emptied out, it's like a really small thing.

1029
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: I feel like it's aesthetics. There's no other explanation. Yeah,

1030
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: it's gonna be aesthetics because everything else is gonna mop

1031
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: up all the soft tissue, ravens, whatever gets into it quick. Yeah,

1032
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean a predator or a scavenger rather is gonna

1033
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: come tear that stomach. Oh bears, It just leaves it

1034
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: looking like someone dumped out a bag of long clipping.

1035
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But I mean there's no other explanation besides,

1036
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: like just the way it looks, because there is a

1037
01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: lot of non hunting recreator overlap, and that's like the

1038
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: size of a wheelbar. Yeah, that stomach is like you

1039
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: couldn't even fit it in most wheelbear. That's also a

1040
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: sensitive topic around there, shooting buffalo, and there are a

1041
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: lot of folks who are up in arms about that.

1042
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: And the whole organization built around a whole organization, so

1043
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: I can kind of understand why they want to worry

1044
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: about the optics of that. Ye, all right, go on.

1045
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: They did some cut analysis. They but they were able

1046
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: to take photos that matched the photo print outs they

1047
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: had brought with them, um by identifying specific like unique

1048
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: knots on trees and burn marks and branch configurations and

1049
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: and and took GPS way points at the same time

1050
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: finding all these all these kill sites were um they said,

1051
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 1: within the space of about a football field, and they

1052
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: were all a mile away from the Montana border. Um

1053
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: so he and they they so they found those three

1054
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: butchered elk um, which in Herrera's defense, sounds like they

1055
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: were well, they were well taken care of. They'd taken

1056
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: all the meat. But they did find a fourth bowl

1057
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 1: that had been untouched and so yes, but it's main

1058
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: so that so it's it's it's unclear uh, whether that

1059
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: was from Herrera or his group or somebody else, or

1060
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: if it died of natural causes. They couldn't tell what

1061
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: that bold died from. I don't remember exactly. Um. There,

1062
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of chatter about this. I think

1063
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: it's something we should discuss, like ch That's why I'm

1064
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: letting you say, because you've looked into it more. I've

1065
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: heard a lot of chatter and I heard some like

1066
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,919
Speaker 1: surprising things that that I don't know if they're true

1067
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, And you know, I've had very little

1068
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: conversation with Claven Herrera, but I have tried to get

1069
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: in touch with him several times. And I asked him

1070
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: specifically about that. Um. That was the first thing I

1071
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: asked him, in fact, because it's a you know, it's

1072
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: a big accusation to level at a hunter and um.

1073
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: But I also figured that was something that would you know,

1074
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: maybe get him to respond to me instead of a

1075
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: softball question. Uh. And he told me, he, um, he

1076
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't even dignify it with a response. That's how like

1077
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: you know, he felt very highly insulted by the accusation. UM.

1078
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: But anyway, Uh, that's what the game warden from Wyoming

1079
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: said they found. UM. So they put together this evidence UM,

1080
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: the GPS way points, the photographic UM matches, and he

1081
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: confronted Herrera on the cro reservation UM in September and

1082
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: cited him for two misdemeanors, obviously the hunting out of

1083
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: season without a license, but also being accessory to other

1084
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: people doing so. Uh. For the two folks they a UM,

1085
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: they possessed or they seized the heads of the elk.

1086
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: All three elk had already been eaten by that point. Um.

1087
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: And Uh, those three folks went to court. Uh they

1088
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: were pressured very hard by the State of Wyoming Uh

1089
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: to plead guilty, to plead out. The state of Wyoming

1090
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: was seeking some thirty thousand dollars in fines and was gonna,

1091
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: you know, come after them really hard with like, you know,

1092
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: removal of hunting privileges and certain things. The two other

1093
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: guys UM who's names are escaping me right now, Uh

1094
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 1: did plead guilty UM for a lighter fine, yes, Uh,

1095
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: And somewhere in the neighborhood of eight thousand UM and

1096
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: probation and not hunting in Wyoming for three years UM.

1097
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of this stuff is Uh.

1098
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: I feel like people who know this case are just

1099
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: taking notes about what I'm getting wrong here, and I'd

1100
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: like to, Uh, I'd like to, you know, kind of

1101
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 1: address that briefly by saying that a lot of these

1102
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: case files are sealed because it's an active, active litigation

1103
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,919
Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court. Nobody wants to talk about this.

1104
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: Like the guy who sent us that that pissy note

1105
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: um yesterday. Uh, he was privy to seal the information.

1106
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: He was very he was privy to seal the information,

1107
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: and uh ended his his letter um with a long

1108
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: disclaimer about how we could not reproduce this, we could

1109
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: not use his name, that it was not the official

1110
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: opinion of anybody or anything. Uh. And that's the That's

1111
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: what I've run up against a lot in this court case, um,

1112
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: because you know what happened. Yeah, And they tell me

1113
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: some other part of it, and I would say, well, man,

1114
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: how where can I go see that? And they'd say,

1115
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: you can't. It's not part of public so it's hard

1116
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: to Yeah, And and what I'm what I'm talking about

1117
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: here this testimony what I extracted by by skimming through

1118
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy pages of court transcription from the

1119
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: from the testimony. But anyway, um, the the court in

1120
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: Wyoming um did A issued a pre trial decision saying

1121
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: that these men could not use a treaty right argument

1122
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: within this within this case. So they and you don't

1123
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: need to explain to you. But I just don't understand

1124
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: the court system enough to understand that. I don't either,

1125
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: Steve and so, and it seems it's it seems odd.

1126
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: It seems odd to me. Let you understood it better.

1127
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: I do. I do too. And I imagine this podcast

1128
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: will get a lot of people reaching out and maybe

1129
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 1: somebody we can actually quote about it. Um And and

1130
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: I loved dr talk to anybody about this. And I'm

1131
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: sorry if I pissed anybody off. I want to point

1132
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,479
Speaker 1: out I think you're doing a great job. Okay, thanks,

1133
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: I appreciate that you're trying really hard, because here's the thing.

1134
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: It's not like we're airing someone's dirty laundry. This is

1135
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 1: being heard by the Supreme Court. Yeah, and as we'll

1136
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,760
Speaker 1: get to this could is something that could have significant

1137
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to say major could have significant tangible ramifications.

1138
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: It could and it couldn't. You couldn't, it couldn't. So

1139
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 1: so if you hit some points here, Sam, where you like,

1140
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: during your investigation here tracking down UM leads, have you

1141
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: hit some points where you're like, I'm just this is

1142
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,679
Speaker 1: pointless to go forward. Yes, So I wanted to walk

1143
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: away from this so badly. I I got to the

1144
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: point where I was like, man, I really wish I

1145
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 1: hadn't opened my mouth about this story, because it got

1146
01:08:57,840 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: to it got to the point where it was it

1147
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: was very difficult to proceed and to really know, to

1148
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: be able to parse it because everybody, everybody's got vested

1149
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: interest here and there. There's so many different, strange, like

1150
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: competing UH sympathies. Most of the mainstream news coverage you

1151
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,600
Speaker 1: see on here is about this is oh nasty, Wyoming

1152
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: is just being mean to those natives that they promised

1153
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 1: this too, and now they're reneging on these treaty rights,

1154
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: all these hundreds this hundred fifty years later. UM. But

1155
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 1: then on the other side of it, UH, you know

1156
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 1: is some some pretty uh I feel like overblown UM

1157
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: rhetoric about what would happen UH I think both extremes absolutely,

1158
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: and so that that's what I was seeking to accomplish

1159
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: with this story, is to is to make something that

1160
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 1: people could read all the way through that you know,

1161
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 1: I was aware of those extremes but didn't buy into them.

1162
01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: And I think, honestly, most of the fee back I've

1163
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: been getting about this was Hunters saying Hunters were angry

1164
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: at us for not condemning her era M and I

1165
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: that's just not my role as a journalist. Like, I

1166
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 1: kept myself out of this as much as I possibly could.

1167
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: Obviously you can't completely eliminate bias, but I wasn't willing to.

1168
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't willing to say that you know he but

1169
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 1: you haven't. But you haven't even gotten to the part

1170
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 1: that the court cares about. Yeah, okay, so yeah, the

1171
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: part that the court cares all circumspects. But yeah, well yeah,

1172
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: so so that's how we got caught. The went went

1173
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 1: to trial, it was found guilty. The the jury agreed

1174
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: with the prosecution. That uh, and so he argued because

1175
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: he couldn't make the treaty right argument in court, he

1176
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: argued that he didn't know he was in Wyoming, and

1177
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: that is the kind of return to what side tractice, Yeah,

1178
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: like some legal professional needs to explain to me how

1179
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: you can how in a court they can it can

1180
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: be dictated to you. What I don't get it. Like

1181
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: let's say you kill someone and you're like, you're like,

1182
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: but those self defense bro or I'm gonna act like

1183
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,680
Speaker 1: those self defense whatever, and they say you can't say that.

1184
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: I don't understand that. But I don't understand Okay, Okay,

1185
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 1: So I think I think I think part of this

1186
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 1: in gosh, I wish, I wish I understood this center,

1187
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 1: but part of it is is an issue, a thing

1188
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 1: called issue preclusion. So I think I think that's what

1189
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 1: perhaps where where this pre trial is decision derives from,

1190
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 1: because Wyoming is saying that because this issue has already

1191
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: been litigated in in high court decisions that I'm about

1192
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: to discuss, because this issue has already been been litigated,

1193
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:51,840
Speaker 1: you can't relitigate that issue, yes, So so what go ahead?

1194
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 1: He's saying he didn't know he was in the state

1195
01:11:54,600 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: of Wyoming, but he wasn't like the list of charges

1196
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: brought against him didn't include hunting without a license. Yeah,

1197
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: I did, it did he would have been legal he

1198
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: would have been, it wouldn't have been Wyoming's issue. And

1199
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,919
Speaker 1: the Crow reservation, I don't believe the Crow tribe issues

1200
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: deer or elk hunting licenses because it's treated as a

1201
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: as an inalienable right. You're allowed to go shoot deer

1202
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: and elk as a Crow tribe member on the reservation

1203
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 1: kind of whenever you want. Collateral estopple is your issue preclusion? Yeah,

1204
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 1: issue preclusion is is by and large what's being argued,

1205
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 1: um by Wyoming in the Supreme Court. That's correct me

1206
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But isn't there also something that hinges

1207
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 1: upon the definition of occupied land? Yes, oh yeah, but

1208
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: that we haven't got that. But but you know, now

1209
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,679
Speaker 1: I'm feeling it on how you cannot like let's say,

1210
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: let's say we've live in some fictitious world in which um,

1211
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: some Supreme Court decide hides that that self defense is

1212
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: not a justifiable self defense isn't justifiable for murder. So

1213
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 1: then later I'm like, I get murdered. I'm like, well,

1214
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that it was self defense, and they say, no,

1215
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: you're not, because it's been decided that that isn't a defense.

1216
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 1: So I could see some version go on. Yeah, I'm

1217
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 1: feeling better now. Yeah. So Wyoming is pointing to two

1218
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:28,719
Speaker 1: separate court cases. Um in eighteen ninety six Supreme Court

1219
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 1: ruling called Ward v. Racehorse, I'll back up because you're

1220
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: not you're not there yet. I'm you're right, You're tight,

1221
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: You're you're right, You're right. He's convicted and appeals Yes,

1222
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: and uh. The appeal obviously has made it to the

1223
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court. And what is his what is

1224
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 1: his appeal? His appeal to forbidden appeal? Correct. His appeal

1225
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: is that the eighteen sixty eight second Treaty of Fort

1226
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: Laramie included Lane Whidge that the Crow tribe when the

1227
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 1: Crow tribe exceeded some thirty million acres of Montana, Wyoming,

1228
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: North and South Dakota to the United States and were

1229
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 1: allotted there I think eight million acre reservation, they retained

1230
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: the right to hunt on the unoccupied lands of the

1231
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: United States, so long as game may be found there.

1232
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: On some wishy washy words. Yeah, yeah, but no, not

1233
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 1: words I wishy washy word right, what is it unclaimed

1234
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: or unoccupied? Unoccupied, unoccupied lands of the United States, so

1235
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:47,559
Speaker 1: long as game may be found there on. So the

1236
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 1: state of Wyoming became a state shortly after that in

1237
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: eight and in eight six the Shoshoni Bannock tribe UM

1238
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:04,800
Speaker 1: tried to assert a similar hunting right with similar language,

1239
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 1: I think the same language actually unoccupied lands of the

1240
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: United States UM, asserting off reservation tribal hunting rights in Wyoming.

1241
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court said that, Um, when the state

1242
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 1: of Wyoming entered the Union, they did so on the

1243
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: same footing as all other states, the equal footing doctrine.

1244
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty ubiquitous, UM. And that that equal footing

1245
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 1: includes sovereignty over the natural resources within that state. So

1246
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: word vy Racehorse said that the the Shoshone Bannocks tribal

1247
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: hunting rights were extinguished by Wyoming's statehood, like they became

1248
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 1: not unoccupied. Yes, that that land became occupied when Wyoming

1249
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 1: became a state. It was it was unoccupied territory prior

1250
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: to that, then it became a state. So that's that's

1251
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:06,600
Speaker 1: your definition right there of what is occupied. Yes, and

1252
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 1: that's being tested, yes, and and that's and there's there's

1253
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:17,200
Speaker 1: another layer to that, UM. There was another Uh, there's

1254
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 1: another decision from the Tenth Circuit Court in so just

1255
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 1: shy of A hundred years later UM in a case

1256
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: called Crow Tribe of Indians Versus Repsis, which is a

1257
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 1: very similar case to this, it was a Crow tribal

1258
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: member who killed an elk out of season without a

1259
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: license in the Big Horn National Forest. That did not

1260
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 1: go to the Supreme Court UH. That ended at the

1261
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 1: at the Tent Circuit court. But the Tent Circuit asserted

1262
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: that the creation of the Big Horn National Forest resulted

1263
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 1: in the occupation of the land. The Big Horn National

1264
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 1: Forest was designated in seven it's one of the oldest

1265
01:16:55,160 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: protected areas UM in the country. So there's those two

1266
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: those two cases. But shortly thereafter after the Repsist decision UH,

1267
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court heard a case called Minnesota the mill

1268
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 1: Locks Band of Chipwah Indians UM and the curt The

1269
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 1: Court maintained in that decision that the Millocks tribe main

1270
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:28,640
Speaker 1: did maintain hunting and fishing rights on the lands they

1271
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 1: had seated under a similar treaty agreement UM. But they

1272
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: did not reverse either the Racehorse or the Repsist decision.

1273
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 1: So now there's these three conflicting precedents that the Supreme

1274
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 1: Court is is is wrestling with yeah, because I'd have

1275
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: to challenge, like, is the U S territory of Guam

1276
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:58,639
Speaker 1: technically unoccupied because it's not incorporated as a state, well,

1277
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 1: and you could show up and hunt a tribal member,

1278
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: go hunt Guam. The oral arguments in the Supreme Court, Uh, yeah,

1279
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. The Supreme Court

1280
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: UM wrestled with this in the in the oral oral arguments,

1281
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: and they're I mean they're they're throwing jokes back and

1282
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 1: forth about like how the hell do we decide what

1283
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:23,040
Speaker 1: unoccupied land is? They asked, let's see, three lawyers, attorneys

1284
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: spoke before the Supreme Court UM, one representing her Era,

1285
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 1: one representing the United States, who is intervening on behalf

1286
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: of Herrera in this case, so they're siding with the

1287
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:36,200
Speaker 1: Crow tribe, and then the the attorney for Wyoming. Uh.

1288
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 1: And they asked all of them, what, how do how

1289
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 1: do we what's what's unoccupied land? How do we decide that?

1290
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: I asked the wildlife professional about this. UM. I don't

1291
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 1: want to tell who because I didn't talked to about

1292
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 1: how I was going to use this perspective, but I

1293
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: was asking, like when when people were drawing up these treaties.

1294
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,479
Speaker 1: I was expressing some surprise about using language it would

1295
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: be so confounding to later generations, and he said that

1296
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 1: confounding gets it. He said that that probably wasn't the

1297
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 1: word that mattered to them because at the time when

1298
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 1: they were doing this, because I think the assumption was

1299
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 1: that the game would be exhausted. Yes, yes, they didn't

1300
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:23,599
Speaker 1: view it wasn't normal. Was picturing that we'd still have

1301
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 1: the resources, and it was like they were watching it

1302
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: vanish as long as they're go ahead, Well, it was exhausted.

1303
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 1: And and that's and that's an interesting argument that hasn't

1304
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 1: been made, but has been suggested to me that elk

1305
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:42,600
Speaker 1: were extirpated from the Big Horn Mountains. So so the

1306
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 1: tree language not only says the unoccupied lance part, but

1307
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 1: so long as game may be found there on. So

1308
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 1: the state of Wyoming also could make the argument that

1309
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 1: because at one point game could not be found there

1310
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: on in the Big Horn National Forest in the state

1311
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 1: of Wyoming brought them back as well as bringing elk

1312
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 1: back to the Crow Reservation, that you know that the

1313
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 1: treaty right right was extinguished because of that. That's not

1314
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: the argument they made. But it's when they perhaps could

1315
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 1: have that. Yeah, and and and I've I've heard that too,

1316
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: that uh, the negotiators, if you will, for the United

1317
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 1: States at the time, we're thinking that that, well, we're

1318
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 1: we're we're damn far down the road of getting rid

1319
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:32,479
Speaker 1: of all the bison and elk and everything, and they're

1320
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 1: probably not gonna last a whole lot longer. So what

1321
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 1: what what value validity does this have? This, this truck,

1322
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 1: this right will will go away just because they won't

1323
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: have anything left to shoot not too long. It seems

1324
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: that the money is betting on Wyoming losing. Like we

1325
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 1: don't know how much they'll lose or how bad they'll lose,

1326
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 1: but the money seems to be betting on that Wyoming

1327
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 1: will lose. Yes, Yes, that's that's a that's my if

1328
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 1: I to read the tea leaves, and there's two, there's

1329
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 1: two competing wisdoms here, one competing one one wisdom. One

1330
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 1: idea is that this will mean that the whole system

1331
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:18,760
Speaker 1: that we've built around assessing wildlife populations, making a determination

1332
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,639
Speaker 1: about harvestable quotas and being able to enforce that, like,

1333
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 1: all of that's gone. Now. If I'm just saying that

1334
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: that the two look radical competing with that that is

1335
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,080
Speaker 1: the given the radicals here, Yeah, the radical sides and

1336
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:36,599
Speaker 1: and and we'll getting on what might be the thing.

1337
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:38,920
Speaker 1: But like you, you wouldn't need to you, you don't

1338
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:42,720
Speaker 1: need to look far to find someone who could say, well,

1339
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: what this could mean was is that tribal members can

1340
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:51,519
Speaker 1: go out onto any national forest, any blm land. I've

1341
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 1: even heard national park and shoot whatever you want, whenever

1342
01:21:57,680 --> 01:21:59,720
Speaker 1: you want, whenever you want unoccupied land. And it will

1343
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 1: make land and will make wildlife management very difficult because

1344
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 1: we won't have enforcement systems in quotas and and bag

1345
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:08,880
Speaker 1: limits and seasons and all that. That's that's one thing.

1346
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 1: Another thing is that, um, this is nothing new. Other

1347
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 1: states have been in this situation. There's states that work

1348
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 1: in cooperation, most states, and it wasn't and it wasn't

1349
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 1: wildlife armageddon, and there's no reason to think that it

1350
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: will be here. Those are like right. I haven't been

1351
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 1: able to confirm this, but I've heard a couple of

1352
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: times that Wyoming is the only state that does not

1353
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: allow any form of off reservation treaty hunting every other apparently,

1354
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:45,040
Speaker 1: I cannot confirm this but I have heard that every

1355
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: other state in the West there exists some form. I mean,

1356
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 1: we were just talking about it. In the case of

1357
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 1: the Gardener bison hunt that's off reservation treaty hunting. Yeah,

1358
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,639
Speaker 1: and there I think and and man I could be off.

1359
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: But in there, I feel like it just has to

1360
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,720
Speaker 1: be that the tribe actually, like the tribe doing the

1361
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 1: bison hunting, but they're doing it in cooperation. They're like,

1362
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 1: there's like quote as they went place, it's like historic

1363
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 1: use patterns. So it can't be that like that. I

1364
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:18,759
Speaker 1: don't think that that someone from um, like a seminole. Perhaps,

1365
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:20,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, I could be wrong with us. I

1366
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 1: don't think a seminole could come out and make a

1367
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 1: claim that they're gonna shoot buffalo on the border of

1368
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 1: Also National Park. I think it has to be a

1369
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,599
Speaker 1: group that has some sort of historic youth handing. Now

1370
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 1: the Nez Purse, who I went there. As we all know,

1371
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: when the yes net Purse were during the Netz perse War,

1372
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:43,040
Speaker 1: Um they traveled through Yellowstone, so it was like they

1373
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 1: had an awareness of the area they were able to

1374
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 1: navigate through there. They had historically gone out and hunted

1375
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 1: on the plains because like our our people, if they

1376
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:54,719
Speaker 1: didn't know about it and didn't know how to travel

1377
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 1: through there, they wouldn't have gone through there in eighteen

1378
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:58,560
Speaker 1: seventy seven. So we had a historic there was a

1379
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:03,679
Speaker 1: historic use. Yes, and in many tribes have petitioned based

1380
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 1: on historic use and in treaty language successfully and in

1381
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:13,760
Speaker 1: very very recently too. Um. Two uh, restore those those

1382
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: hunting rights based on historic use. Um. So what didn't

1383
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 1: we hit? What didn't we hit? Well, yeah, okay, so

1384
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,320
Speaker 1: we we didn't. We didn't quite we didn't quite wrap

1385
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: that wrap that up about what what would happen. So yeah,

1386
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 1: there's people who are saying, well, yes, if the Supreme Court,

1387
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, rules in favor of Herrera, then all of

1388
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 1: a sudden, there will be tribal members in every national

1389
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 1: forest in the West, shooting whatever they want, whenever they want.

1390
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,200
Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be extreme. I would be that that's

1391
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 1: just not gonna happen. Well, the matter is that's not

1392
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 1: gonna happen. You don't know because there could be some

1393
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 1: huge sweeping like now and then the court will have

1394
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:57,880
Speaker 1: like some huge sweeping thing that causes a lot of Yes,

1395
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 1: but that there overturned a lot. The doctrine of conservation

1396
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 1: necessity is in everyone's minds here, and that is a

1397
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 1: a well established UM precedent. That's that basically prevents courts

1398
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 1: from issuing decisions that would have drastic negative consequences for

1399
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,479
Speaker 1: wildlife populations. This is this is this is something that

1400
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:28,519
Speaker 1: dates back a long ways and UM the Supreme Court

1401
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:32,480
Speaker 1: is is highly aware of The Supreme Court is unlikely

1402
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 1: to completely solve this issue. Uh They they typically, I

1403
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 1: mean the Supreme Court deals and high minded ideals, if

1404
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: you will, so they what I would guess they would

1405
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 1: do is issue a test for occupancy. Two. I imagine

1406
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 1: they will say that there are unoccupied lands in Wyoming still.

1407
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 1: But what that means that they may remand to a

1408
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 1: lower quarter or they may issue some form like what

1409
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 1: what I think about? Here is another case I'm familiar with,

1410
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, the current litigation surrounding the Clean Water Act.

1411
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:19,679
Speaker 1: Uh So that the the issue there is like what

1412
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 1: what what are connected waterways? Like? What are you allowed

1413
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 1: to pollute? What are you not allowed to pollute? And UM,

1414
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 1: what they're basing a lot of the revision of that

1415
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 1: Clean Water Act rulemaking is on UM significant nexus or

1416
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 1: is it is it navigable or you know how water

1417
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 1: flows from one place to the other. That's what the

1418
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 1: Supreme Court likes to do, is like, here's a test.

1419
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,240
Speaker 1: This is how you go down and you go figure

1420
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:49,320
Speaker 1: it out. And so they'll probably remand to the tent

1421
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 1: circuit or whoever it is um based on this, and

1422
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 1: I've heard some I've heard some suggestions that it's hundred

1423
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: and fifty yards from a road and two hundred yards

1424
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 1: from a campground in in a national forest and on

1425
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 1: on public land or so so they they may issue

1426
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 1: some some like these are unoccupied lands, but the conservation,

1427
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: the doctrine of conservation necessity will likely lead them or

1428
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:21,799
Speaker 1: the lower court they were manned to too effectively force

1429
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:28,599
Speaker 1: Wyoming and the Crow tribe to come to the table

1430
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 1: and and say, okay, you do have the Crow tribal

1431
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 1: members do have this right to hunt these unoccupied lands,

1432
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 1: whatever they may be, and put it to Wyoming to

1433
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:42,360
Speaker 1: accommodate them. Yeah, exactly, Wyoming will have to accommodate them.

1434
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 1: And and in the story I have an example of

1435
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:51,519
Speaker 1: how how that um went down with a tribe in Colorado. UM.

1436
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:54,799
Speaker 1: And so you know, one guy I talked to UH

1437
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 1: for this for this story he gets. He gives the

1438
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: example of UM, so say there's hundred ELK tags for

1439
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 1: that unit currently. He if he's looking at the crystal

1440
01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 1: ball or t leaves or whatever, he's saying, like, you

1441
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 1: know currently, and you know these these are numbers out

1442
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 1: of thin air. But he's like, so if you currently

1443
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 1: have eighty licenses, of those licenses going to residents and

1444
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:22,680
Speaker 1: twenty going to non residents, after whatever may happen, if

1445
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:26,320
Speaker 1: they rule in favor of Herrera, then you'd have sixty

1446
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 1: of those licenses going to residents, ten going to non residents,

1447
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 1: in like thirty going to crow tribe members. So that

1448
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:40,680
Speaker 1: that's that's how that's how significant reduction of available tags. Yeah, yeah,

1449
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:42,400
Speaker 1: you know that's what you just brought up. Something that's

1450
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:44,519
Speaker 1: interesting with the guy that this idea of, like should

1451
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: you be able to do nonresident hunting is um Most

1452
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:50,680
Speaker 1: states also put a cap. Most states limit like an

1453
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,000
Speaker 1: available resource for only ten percent of the resources can

1454
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 1: go to non residents. Yeah, and Wyoming does all sorts

1455
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:57,280
Speaker 1: of crazy stuff like that, like you can't hunt in

1456
01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:00,519
Speaker 1: the wilderness areas and nonresident that without not a guide,

1457
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 1: which I believe is unconstitutional. But I asked the governor

1458
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: there about that. He didn't want to discuss it. I

1459
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 1: would imagine that's unfair rule. How do you justify that?

1460
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 1: He goes, I don't need to justify it to you.

1461
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:16,640
Speaker 1: I spent out it was it was a joking. He

1462
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 1: didn't really. I mean it was we're formally joking around,

1463
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 1: uh my buddies over there on the Idaho side. That

1464
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 1: That's kind of what they always come back to is like, listen,

1465
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:33,920
Speaker 1: you may have more pressure in your area, but the

1466
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 1: number of nonresident hunters doesn't change. It's like, for the

1467
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 1: last X amount of years it's been this much, it's capped. Yeah,

1468
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's never above ten percent. And he's like, yeah,

1469
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that you're seeing more pressure in year zone. Well,

1470
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:58,519
Speaker 1: Colorado Archery ELK, it is not capped. There's over the

1471
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 1: counter tags all over damn state. Oh really that's cap

1472
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 1: That's interesting because he feels like you will see Brody.

1473
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: Brody is predicting that you will see the end of that. Yeah,

1474
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:13,639
Speaker 1: it will become capped. I I thought that they I guess,

1475
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:17,000
Speaker 1: not right. Not happening to move at that direction. But

1476
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 1: they're doing some stuff this year. But they didn't. They

1477
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,200
Speaker 1: didn't cap like the OTC tags. They didn't do any Idaho.

1478
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:28,680
Speaker 1: Every non resident purchase goes against that quota. So it

1479
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're buying all the way up in

1480
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:37,600
Speaker 1: the Panhandle, uh, you know, unit one or all the

1481
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:42,240
Speaker 1: way on the complete opposite side of Hell's Canyon. Um,

1482
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,799
Speaker 1: it all comes out of a nonresident pool, can I

1483
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 1: I know I got us off on that, but I

1484
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 1: get us back. What are we missing? Sam? I feel

1485
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:54,560
Speaker 1: like we've covered it, so we gotta wait now, we

1486
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:56,720
Speaker 1: gotta we gotta wait. But yeah, you know, I mean

1487
01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 1: too if you had to one to tenant, one to

1488
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:04,840
Speaker 1: tenant on this is like one to tenant, um Like

1489
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:07,320
Speaker 1: this is like, oh my god, this is gonna change

1490
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 1: life as we know it. Being a ten one will

1491
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 1: be that there's no not even a blip. You'll never

1492
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: really you could live your whole life and never knew

1493
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 1: this happened. Um, where are you putting it? Putting into?

1494
01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. I wish you'd ask me that an

1495
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 1: hour ago, and I could have thought about a little bit.

1496
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:24,599
Speaker 1: But I'd say a three or four for three or four, Yeah,

1497
01:31:24,640 --> 01:31:27,479
Speaker 1: I mean and and so and and everybody like with

1498
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:29,439
Speaker 1: with this piece of everybody wanted to put like big

1499
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: implications in the in the headline and and major changes coming.

1500
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 1: And I just I was uncomfortable with that because I

1501
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:41,920
Speaker 1: because because of the content doctrine of conservation necessity, we

1502
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 1: don't have unregulated hunting in the United States by and large.

1503
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 1: You know this will this will ultimately fit into some

1504
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:57,720
Speaker 1: form of game management system. Will people in Wyoming lose opportunity?

1505
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 1: That's that's possible. I don't think that's yeah, quite possible. Um,

1506
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:07,160
Speaker 1: But uh, you know something something that um Herrera's lawyer

1507
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,800
Speaker 1: keeps harping on whenever I've talked to her is that

1508
01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: elk are over objective in that unit and that Wyoming

1509
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: apparently can't get rid of enough elk tags. And so

1510
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:23,960
Speaker 1: what's interesting about this, and we talked about this, and

1511
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:27,800
Speaker 1: you talked about it too, is that none of this

1512
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:32,400
Speaker 1: matters to the court. The Supreme Court doesn't care like

1513
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 1: about the elk objective. They don't care if you took

1514
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,599
Speaker 1: all the meat, none of the meat. It doesn't matter

1515
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 1: if you shot a hundred of them. Yeah, it doesn't

1516
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:44,240
Speaker 1: matter if you tortured them they're talking about ceremonials, talking

1517
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 1: about like three or four words. They're talking about issue

1518
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 1: preclusion and unoccupied lands. They're not that's all they're making

1519
01:32:51,080 --> 01:32:52,960
Speaker 1: Like was this ethical? And it's like there, it's like

1520
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:55,400
Speaker 1: they're looking at something very clean. All of the stuff

1521
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:57,800
Speaker 1: we're getting into, all the preluders like Germane. It's like,

1522
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:01,559
Speaker 1: is someone who's living under this treaty that was made

1523
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,600
Speaker 1: with the federal government, what is the definition of a

1524
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 1: term that was using your treaty? Yeah, and so and

1525
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 1: so that whole story I took I took people through

1526
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 1: is like and that that's what everybody points to, is I.

1527
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 1: It's like, oh man, he just he's felt so guilty.

1528
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:17,080
Speaker 1: He felt he really feels like poaching. Even someone on

1529
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,960
Speaker 1: staff was like, while he was poaching, let's just say

1530
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:22,519
Speaker 1: it was poaching. That's not, that's not, that's not, that's

1531
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:24,479
Speaker 1: not what's a foot here that that's not what the

1532
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:29,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court does. More than likely, I would expect that

1533
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:32,400
Speaker 1: whatever the Supreme Court decides, there will be another ruling

1534
01:33:32,439 --> 01:33:34,760
Speaker 1: by a lower court case that will decide if he

1535
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:36,720
Speaker 1: was poaching or not, and he will gets slapped with

1536
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: a fine for that. You don't think so. No, if

1537
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 1: he wins, he's not going to get a If he

1538
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:44,800
Speaker 1: wins the Supreme Court case, he's not going to get

1539
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 1: fined by the state. Right, Well, you know who knows.

1540
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:51,320
Speaker 1: Let's let' let's let's revisit this after Yeah, let's bring

1541
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 1: a lawyer in here. But yeah, so I I really,

1542
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 1: I really think that you know, it will affect hunters

1543
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:03,000
Speaker 1: in Wyoming, UM by some measure, But I don't think

1544
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,640
Speaker 1: it blows up the North America in the auto of

1545
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 1: wildlife conservation like some people are asserting. That's your prediction,

1546
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:11,240
Speaker 1: that's my prediction. We'll return to it. Okay, Yeah, I'm

1547
01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 1: gonna I'm hooked now. I can't help but continue to

1548
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: follow this. So, uh, it's it's gonna be. It's gonna

1549
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:19,160
Speaker 1: be quite a while until this is resolved, so we'll

1550
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 1: have plenty more opportunities. I don't have a good segue

1551
01:34:22,400 --> 01:34:27,120
Speaker 1: for what's coming. Net. Do you have a pivot? No? Well, yeah,

1552
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 1: I think a pivot that's just like you just start

1553
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: talking about something different, right, No, pivot's kind of like

1554
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: a segue. You could just jump. I like how you're

1555
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:38,200
Speaker 1: wearing a jump my dad. My dad calls My dad

1556
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:40,760
Speaker 1: calls it changing gears without hitting it, without stepping on

1557
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: the clutch. I'm not clutching, and he loves to do that.

1558
01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:47,200
Speaker 1: He just changes changes topics on the drop of the happen.

1559
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 1: I forgot to clutch there. Sorry, because the theme, the

1560
01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 1: theme here, one of the themes here is um uh

1561
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, I'm working this out. One of

1562
01:34:56,720 --> 01:34:59,719
Speaker 1: the themes that we're talking about. We're talking with writers

1563
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:05,120
Speaker 1: and uh and writing. We're talking about writing. They can

1564
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:07,519
Speaker 1: be found at the meat Eator dot com. And I'm

1565
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 1: pivoting too, Miles Nick Nolton's kid, Miles, you never sent

1566
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:17,800
Speaker 1: me any good you know, birthday, yes, or anything. That's

1567
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 1: what I was always hoping. Yeah, I mean he could

1568
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: have afforded some some good ship. I never got anything.

1569
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 1: You gotta do a paternity claim, Like, well, how else

1570
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:30,360
Speaker 1: would I have the same name? Uh, lay out your deal.

1571
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:34,559
Speaker 1: So the story that we're talking about comes from I

1572
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 1: mean this kind of kicked around in my head when

1573
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: I was ice fishing not too long ago, and we

1574
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:41,840
Speaker 1: were we were having a good day and we were

1575
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 1: pulling a whole lot of perch through the ice and

1576
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,559
Speaker 1: just kind of take them off the hook, and we

1577
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 1: had probably three inches of standing water on the ice

1578
01:35:50,439 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 1: in the hut at that time, and I could just

1579
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:57,719
Speaker 1: hear these dozens of perch splashing around beneath us, not

1580
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,839
Speaker 1: not really dying, just kind of gasping and half freezing.

1581
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:05,559
Speaker 1: And it got me thinking about how, particularly as hunters,

1582
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:08,200
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about ethical killing. Yeah, like, you'd

1583
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:09,639
Speaker 1: never have a half a live deer in the back

1584
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:11,720
Speaker 1: of your truck. No, No, well I hadn't. My old

1585
01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:14,080
Speaker 1: man was it was accident, it was a road kill.

1586
01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:15,760
Speaker 1: He didn't. He didn't do it, and someone else did it.

1587
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:17,720
Speaker 1: You never drag a half a live deer and like

1588
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:19,800
Speaker 1: have it kicking behind me. That that's fine. Yeah, I'm

1589
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:22,240
Speaker 1: not worried about that. That That sounds pretty dangerous too. I

1590
01:36:22,240 --> 01:36:24,840
Speaker 1: mean there is that aspect, but that's beyond but that's

1591
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: not what that's not the point here. Beyond danger. Yes,

1592
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: So it got me thinking about how we we talk

1593
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 1: a lot about ethical killing, and we judge people who kill,

1594
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:38,960
Speaker 1: how we determined to be unethically as hunters, but no

1595
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: one seems to give a shit about fish. My sister

1596
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 1: in law, you're okay, your sister in law teaser for it,

1597
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 1: for it and she made her job to dispatch fish,

1598
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 1: and we ridicule her for it. But we don't have

1599
01:36:53,240 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: live squirrels bouncing around in our game bags. That would

1600
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 1: be barbaric. And and if you wound the bird bird

1601
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:03,360
Speaker 1: hunting and it's still flopping, what do you do? Kill

1602
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 1: it immediately? Immediately, immediately? And if you don't, you're a

1603
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:09,640
Speaker 1: bad person, right, I mean by all of like the

1604
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:14,160
Speaker 1: collective consciousness assessment, fish like tough shit, We just let

1605
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:16,439
Speaker 1: him go? Why is it? And this is my question,

1606
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:18,559
Speaker 1: this is what I started thinking about, is why why

1607
01:37:18,600 --> 01:37:22,880
Speaker 1: do we not care about fish? It's I think it's like, well,

1608
01:37:22,920 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's just like a person,

1609
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:29,200
Speaker 1: what the amount of credit you give them? High you've

1610
01:37:29,240 --> 01:37:32,599
Speaker 1: talked about before. But so after you and I talked

1611
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 1: about this, Steve, I went and did a deep dive

1612
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 1: into some of the literature, like the actual research literature

1613
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: on this and the dark web, Yes, the dark web?

1614
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that what we're calling the truth about

1615
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:54,840
Speaker 1: the truth about whatever. It's a real answer and and

1616
01:37:55,160 --> 01:38:00,720
Speaker 1: believe it or not, like in certain biology circles or

1617
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 1: certain certain uh corners of academia, right now, there is

1618
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:09,360
Speaker 1: a lively debate about how much pain fish feel and

1619
01:38:09,400 --> 01:38:12,200
Speaker 1: whether or not they do feel pain. And this they're

1620
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,200
Speaker 1: like these sort of these two camps that are lobbying

1621
01:38:15,320 --> 01:38:18,240
Speaker 1: articles back and forth in different journals. They keep referencing

1622
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:21,320
Speaker 1: the same each other and and going back and forth

1623
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:27,280
Speaker 1: convinced fish do feel pain or convinced the argument for

1624
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:32,479
Speaker 1: why fish can't feel pain. And it seems to me

1625
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:34,640
Speaker 1: that all of this, like I learned, I learned a

1626
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:36,800
Speaker 1: lot of vocabulary while I was doing this. I figured

1627
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:40,479
Speaker 1: you guys would would appreciate vocabulary. So one being, um,

1628
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:44,880
Speaker 1: the things that cause pain into two critters are referred

1629
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: to as noxious stimuli. Got it. Yep, I'm liking that one. Yep.

1630
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: And the beginning for a band, Yeah, would like it's

1631
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:57,639
Speaker 1: real hard metal. Yeah, very like death metal. Knocks at

1632
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 1: a lot of like feedback and they sing like death metal.

1633
01:39:03,439 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 1: Well that that's that's a great segue into your lead.

1634
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:08,840
Speaker 1: It is. But I'm I've got more like I've got

1635
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:12,280
Speaker 1: I've got these the goes on right like you got.

1636
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm not a stimuli. I'm just saying your vana. I

1637
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:17,040
Speaker 1: know I do cover that in the article. We do

1638
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:19,320
Speaker 1: get into you know, I do believe there's but there's

1639
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:22,120
Speaker 1: possibly like the reason at least our generation doesn't think

1640
01:39:22,120 --> 01:39:25,240
Speaker 1: that that's cool. The torture fish is because of Kurt Cobain.

1641
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 1: We can completely blame him for his his lyrics that

1642
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 1: you know it's okay to eat fish because they don't

1643
01:39:30,040 --> 01:39:32,720
Speaker 1: have any feelings. But I don't buy that. Cobain said

1644
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 1: that he did Underneath the Bridge. Yeah, I never did

1645
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:39,320
Speaker 1: like that band. I mean nothing to do with that.

1646
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:42,559
Speaker 1: It's like, well, you're from that area. I couldn't help it.

1647
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 1: I still I don't. I don't don't consider him like

1648
01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:47,960
Speaker 1: a solid source on on fish. You don't go there

1649
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 1: for your theology. I don't. I don't. There were people

1650
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:56,560
Speaker 1: in my class bawling the day Cobain killed himself, or

1651
01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:58,400
Speaker 1: the day of the news came out that he had killed.

1652
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,120
Speaker 1: I'm not about being I'm not gonna like act like

1653
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm sad when someone passes away. I'm not. I'm not

1654
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:06,600
Speaker 1: sitting up sorry. I'm not gonna act like I'm not

1655
01:40:06,640 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 1: gonna stay like. That's not I means said the opposite.

1656
01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:13,600
Speaker 1: I went, I'm saying like meat digging, and I just

1657
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 1: don't like the music as bearing out my feelings about

1658
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:21,040
Speaker 1: one's passage, especially someone has a child. Yes, I'm gonna

1659
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:24,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pivot this back to to where the noxious

1660
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 1: stimulator things that could hurt something. The the behavior of

1661
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:33,160
Speaker 1: responding to noxious stimuli without being conscious of it or

1662
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 1: is known as no seception or nazi semption. I'm not

1663
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 1: totally sure. And and where this really hinges is the

1664
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: difference between having the subjective experience of pain, which is

1665
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: known or subjective experiences are known as quality just more

1666
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 1: more thrown out there. But there's a subjective experience of

1667
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:58,440
Speaker 1: pain versus sort of the unconscious response to a noxious stimulus.

1668
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 1: And the best analogy that I was able to find

1669
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:05,479
Speaker 1: was that, like when you put your hand down on

1670
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:11,439
Speaker 1: a hot burner, your body jerks your hand away before

1671
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: you experience pain, And so those two neurological experiences are different,

1672
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:20,879
Speaker 1: like that the processes in the brain are very different

1673
01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:24,959
Speaker 1: between having what they would call a nose defensive behavior

1674
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,519
Speaker 1: pulling your hand away, and then having the subjective experience

1675
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:31,920
Speaker 1: of having pain. And so where these two camps of

1676
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 1: researchers seem to differ is do fish have the physiological

1677
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:41,640
Speaker 1: capability of getting to that pain experience? And some say

1678
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: they dunes, some say they don't. So there there's still

1679
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: debate between these two camps of biologists as to whether

1680
01:41:47,320 --> 01:41:51,800
Speaker 1: or not fish are just reacting to not just stimuli,

1681
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:54,760
Speaker 1: or they're actually have or they have the capacity to

1682
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 1: both react to it and feel it as a pain experience,

1683
01:41:57,400 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 1: if the quality or the subjective experience is similar to

1684
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:04,519
Speaker 1: ourselves and higher primates. And so there's there, you know,

1685
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 1: if you look at it in terms of the evolutionary

1686
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:10,759
Speaker 1: tree of vertebrates, fish are about as far from primates

1687
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:12,479
Speaker 1: as you can get. And there are a lot of

1688
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:15,479
Speaker 1: differences in the way that we're put together. And these

1689
01:42:15,479 --> 01:42:18,640
Speaker 1: two camps of researchers are essentially arguing over something that

1690
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 1: right now is unknowable. What is the internal experience of fish?

1691
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:25,719
Speaker 1: And point unknowable it is? And and they both seem

1692
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,880
Speaker 1: to me, And I'm sure we're gonna get mail from

1693
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:29,720
Speaker 1: folks who are researching to no more than I do.

1694
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:32,559
Speaker 1: It seems to me that they're working from predetermined notions.

1695
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:35,360
Speaker 1: One camp be in like it is we since we

1696
01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 1: can't know the possibility of subjecting these critters to pain

1697
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:43,920
Speaker 1: that's not unnecessary, is is atrocious, and we should therefore

1698
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 1: make sure we're not doing it, and the other camp

1699
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:49,479
Speaker 1: saying the value to humans of our the way that

1700
01:42:49,479 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 1: we're doing things like the way that we fish, the

1701
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:53,799
Speaker 1: way that we farm, the way that we do testing

1702
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: on fish is so high that we can't assume that

1703
01:42:56,600 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 1: they're having the pain experience. And so they both are

1704
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 1: working from their their preconceived notions of value and trying

1705
01:43:03,040 --> 01:43:05,760
Speaker 1: to prove something that at this point is unknowable. Where

1706
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:10,640
Speaker 1: are you add it? I mean, I'm stuck on the

1707
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:14,920
Speaker 1: unknowable part, and I have I love fishing and I'm

1708
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:18,599
Speaker 1: not gonna stop fishing. And I think that fish experience stress.

1709
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:20,680
Speaker 1: There's no question they experience stress. You can, you can,

1710
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:23,160
Speaker 1: there is is there no question that fish experience stress.

1711
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 1: That part is is no question they experienced stress. They

1712
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,320
Speaker 1: have stress hormones. They there are a lot of studies

1713
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 1: that demonstrate that they avoid noxious stimuli right, and that

1714
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 1: they different fish more than others. By the way, trout

1715
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 1: do not avoid noxious stimuli because they're not as smart

1716
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:41,839
Speaker 1: as say goldfish. Different story though. The other thing I found,

1717
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:44,600
Speaker 1: but that's why the can catch them so good. I

1718
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 1: still think I still from when going back to the

1719
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:52,559
Speaker 1: initial story, I don't think there's any reason to unnecessarily

1720
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 1: subject fish to stress if you're just gonna kill him anyway.

1721
01:43:56,360 --> 01:44:01,880
Speaker 1: So you're now stopping, you're stopping. Okay, let me put

1722
01:44:01,880 --> 01:44:05,000
Speaker 1: it this way. Let's say you're fishing bluegills. It's hot,

1723
01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: and you're throwing them in a bucket because they stay

1724
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 1: alive in the bucket, they do. And you keep adding

1725
01:44:10,240 --> 01:44:14,080
Speaker 1: water because you're live well alive because it's hot out

1726
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:16,160
Speaker 1: you don't happen to have a whole bunch of ice

1727
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:18,360
Speaker 1: and packing them on ice and whatnot. Do you think

1728
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:22,240
Speaker 1: that's bad? He damn sure is not wanting to be

1729
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:25,479
Speaker 1: in that bucket. Yeah, I mean, I I think that.

1730
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 1: I think that. I'm not I'm not condemning live wells.

1731
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna come. I'm not gonna go with that

1732
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:34,920
Speaker 1: about buckets. I mean, do you make an argument the

1733
01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:38,280
Speaker 1: bucket alive well, pretty damn so properly managed. I think

1734
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,040
Speaker 1: those are pretty dmpn similar, I think. And I think

1735
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:42,320
Speaker 1: that in that case, if you're playing to harvest that

1736
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:44,439
Speaker 1: fish and it's a question of spoiling the meat and

1737
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:47,360
Speaker 1: wasting the critter, I'm gonna say keep it in the

1738
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:50,680
Speaker 1: keeping the bucket and keep alive, but then dispatch it

1739
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:53,160
Speaker 1: quickly when you remove it from there. Here's the thing

1740
01:44:53,240 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 1: that makes us interesting too. And you talk about this,

1741
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:59,400
Speaker 1: you talk about killing fish. When you were a commercial fisherman,

1742
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:01,200
Speaker 1: I was. I was. I was a guide that was

1743
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:03,400
Speaker 1: a recreation guide, but we were harvesting a lot of

1744
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:05,120
Speaker 1: I was gotten up in Alaska. I got it up

1745
01:45:05,120 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 1: in Alaska for years, and we harvested a lot of

1746
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:10,200
Speaker 1: salmon for our clients, and we essentially became fish processors.

1747
01:45:10,680 --> 01:45:14,519
Speaker 1: Best practices, yeah, was to get them in as quickly

1748
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:16,840
Speaker 1: as possible, whack them right at the base of the

1749
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 1: skull until you get the twitch, and then bleed them

1750
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: out and get that meat off the bone. I did.

1751
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 1: I I commercial fish in Alaska for a long time,

1752
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 1: and we would haul in tens of thousands of sam

1753
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:34,360
Speaker 1: at the same time into our hold of refrigerated seawater

1754
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:37,719
Speaker 1: that's exactly thirty four degrees and so, and they would

1755
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:40,639
Speaker 1: freeze to death over the span of about an hour

1756
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:44,320
Speaker 1: they'd be swimming around in there. So that seems much

1757
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:46,720
Speaker 1: less humane than what you were doing. Yeah, and and

1758
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:48,960
Speaker 1: that like to to that point. That's one of the

1759
01:45:49,280 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 1: issues going on with the researchers are talking about right

1760
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:55,880
Speaker 1: the way that we harvest fish commercially, if they experienced pain, Like,

1761
01:45:56,040 --> 01:45:57,800
Speaker 1: we have all these things in place for livestock, in

1762
01:45:57,840 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: the way that you can kill livestock too, so that

1763
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:02,479
Speaker 1: it is as humane as possible, even like blind Yeah,

1764
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 1: like blind alleys, you can't they can't see the one

1765
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: in front of it. Yeah, and they don't see like

1766
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 1: in a normal situation. I guess they they're not even

1767
01:46:10,479 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 1: watching the one in front of it get hit. And

1768
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:14,760
Speaker 1: that's a neat quality issue as much as a that's

1769
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 1: what That's what I's getting out the commercial practices is

1770
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:20,920
Speaker 1: it winds up being that Um, people who are like

1771
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:23,640
Speaker 1: just concerned with since they're just concerned without it's like

1772
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: a reductive thing. People who are concerned with quality of flesh. Um.

1773
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know about your case. I think people are

1774
01:46:31,280 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 1: concerned with the quality fresh process real quick. Yeah. But

1775
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,599
Speaker 1: Sam's case is slightly different too, because we're talking about

1776
01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:43,040
Speaker 1: he's talking about humane ethical kill and this is a

1777
01:46:43,120 --> 01:46:46,400
Speaker 1: question of do fish feel pain? Well, this is both

1778
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,000
Speaker 1: And that's the difficulty of this of this debate is

1779
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 1: because we're trying to apply science to a philosophical issue.

1780
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:55,680
Speaker 1: The reason that we know this is possible though, or

1781
01:46:55,800 --> 01:47:01,639
Speaker 1: it's a relatable thing is congenital in sensitivity to pain

1782
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:08,640
Speaker 1: or SIP genital and sensitivity genital um, which is the

1783
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:13,400
Speaker 1: human version of you have never felt pain, nor are

1784
01:47:13,479 --> 01:47:20,000
Speaker 1: you capable of feeling physical pain. So by knowing about that,

1785
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:23,320
Speaker 1: we do know that it is at least possible to say, well,

1786
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:29,680
Speaker 1: these fish or what whatever you want to discuss this on,

1787
01:47:30,760 --> 01:47:33,400
Speaker 1: it is possible that they could very well not feel

1788
01:47:33,439 --> 01:47:37,920
Speaker 1: pain because we do have an established case. Um, I

1789
01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:41,640
Speaker 1: know that these critters damn sure don't want to die. No,

1790
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 1: that's why. That's why. Yeah, I don't don't really have

1791
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:49,360
Speaker 1: any to add. My sister in law changed my my

1792
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:51,559
Speaker 1: My sister in law made me feel slightly sensitive to

1793
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,760
Speaker 1: it because she doesn't like it, and that that was

1794
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 1: the base of your We're out fishing catfish, she don't

1795
01:47:59,040 --> 01:48:01,679
Speaker 1: like them laying by. I'm about we're going all around,

1796
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:05,519
Speaker 1: she won't even fish. Should just take a flame knife

1797
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:09,640
Speaker 1: and kill all the catfish. I would say this. I

1798
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:11,800
Speaker 1: would say this. I think that the point for me

1799
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:14,160
Speaker 1: in all of this is that we we talk about

1800
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:17,080
Speaker 1: trying to be at least conscious of the way that

1801
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:18,960
Speaker 1: we kill things, we're gonna harvest somewhere to eat them.

1802
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:20,880
Speaker 1: And I think that we should apply that to fish

1803
01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:24,479
Speaker 1: as much as we do anything else. And and because

1804
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,320
Speaker 1: because it's unknowable, take steps to you know, I'm not

1805
01:48:27,360 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: saying don't go out and kill fish, because I'm not

1806
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:32,680
Speaker 1: gonna stop doing that, but to to do it in

1807
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:36,080
Speaker 1: a way that like if to not unnecessarily draw out

1808
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 1: that process, because this was not hard to just whack

1809
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:40,760
Speaker 1: him over the back of the head. And they're done

1810
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:43,080
Speaker 1: the same way, like if you kill your ducks to

1811
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:45,160
Speaker 1: someone say like I don't, I think you should when

1812
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:46,800
Speaker 1: you run up to a duck, you should make sure

1813
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:50,559
Speaker 1: it's dead. That's not by extension saying you shouldn't hunt ducks. No, yeah,

1814
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 1: we've just accepted that. That's like a normal practice. Have

1815
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:56,240
Speaker 1: you guys seen the videos of the Messiah when they

1816
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,160
Speaker 1: had decided to kill you know, they're nomadic hurds and

1817
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 1: when they had decide I had to kill one of

1818
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:08,759
Speaker 1: their beeves. Um, like, it's quite the slaughter process because

1819
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 1: like everybody's around petting this. I would assume a steer um.

1820
01:49:17,120 --> 01:49:19,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what age class they select, but that

1821
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 1: would suggest that they cast right. That would suggest that

1822
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:24,599
Speaker 1: they cast right if it's a steer. But and I'm

1823
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 1: putting a lot of western uh yeah. But they're around

1824
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:36,720
Speaker 1: like petting this uh beef and uh I had and

1825
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:40,080
Speaker 1: from what outside looking in, making it seem very special.

1826
01:49:40,520 --> 01:49:43,519
Speaker 1: And then somebody just pops a real quick hole and

1827
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:49,160
Speaker 1: it's jugular vein and uh they continue to sit there

1828
01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:53,759
Speaker 1: and and pet it and eventually it just like weekends

1829
01:49:53,800 --> 01:50:00,680
Speaker 1: and goes to sleep. There's a apocalypse now now they

1830
01:50:00,680 --> 01:50:10,160
Speaker 1: do it. No, no, but that seems like killing them

1831
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:15,760
Speaker 1: softly approach. I think. I think the the quick kill

1832
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:22,680
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, quickly dispatching our our game is

1833
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 1: something that's very caught up in the uh you know,

1834
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 1: the fair chase ethic that's developed around sport hunting in

1835
01:50:31,080 --> 01:50:36,439
Speaker 1: the United States over the last hundred years. Because I

1836
01:50:36,439 --> 01:50:40,240
Speaker 1: imagine the market hunters of old didn't care so much

1837
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:42,960
Speaker 1: about it. I'm guessing not guys who were out killing,

1838
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:47,719
Speaker 1: you know, dozens and dozens of deer bison every day

1839
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:52,200
Speaker 1: probably weren't overly bothered by the you know, how long

1840
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 1: it took for them to die. They were, but for

1841
01:50:56,240 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 1: other reasons. But someone who ran four their bison off

1842
01:51:01,520 --> 01:51:05,360
Speaker 1: cliff right. Yeah, probably wasn't top of mind to go

1843
01:51:05,479 --> 01:51:07,000
Speaker 1: and make sure I mean that that was like a

1844
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 1: maiming exercise. It was like, probably not top of mind

1845
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:12,240
Speaker 1: to make sure everyone was humanely dispatched real quick. No.

1846
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:14,599
Speaker 1: But I mean, this is this is something that has grown,

1847
01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 1: as you know, I feel like concurrently with the fair

1848
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,760
Speaker 1: chase ethic, and I think it's a positive notion. I

1849
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:24,880
Speaker 1: think it's tied to a lot of other Western ideals

1850
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:28,759
Speaker 1: and even anthropomorphism, the growth of that in our culture.

1851
01:51:29,040 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 1: So it's it's fascinating to me. And just dealing with

1852
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:34,320
Speaker 1: the working on this piece with Miles, it's it's really

1853
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:37,800
Speaker 1: made me introspective about it. Now. I sort of feel

1854
01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:42,120
Speaker 1: bad for letting tens of thousands of pink salmon, uh

1855
01:51:42,280 --> 01:51:44,679
Speaker 1: you know, die over the band of a couple hours.

1856
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:48,240
Speaker 1: And it's it's really made me think about this and

1857
01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:51,559
Speaker 1: every every fish I've caught since then. I've just it's

1858
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 1: not too hard to take a filet knife and stab

1859
01:51:54,479 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 1: it right behind the eye and make them dead quickly. Man,

1860
01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:01,479
Speaker 1: those boys and gone are good at it. They kill him,

1861
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:06,760
Speaker 1: they do because all their fish bite. Yeah, they around

1862
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:08,439
Speaker 1: the bottle of the boat. They'll take a chunk out

1863
01:52:08,439 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 1: of your leg. Man, they got it down pat. They

1864
01:52:11,560 --> 01:52:13,840
Speaker 1: hit it like it's like they take that knife and

1865
01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 1: they'll they'll stand the fish up, belly down, thin up,

1866
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:21,280
Speaker 1: and they hit the sweet spot with that tip of

1867
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:24,760
Speaker 1: that knife that fishes. It's a good practice. Sometimes. My

1868
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:26,880
Speaker 1: dad almost lost a toe to a dungeon s crab

1869
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:29,080
Speaker 1: that was wandering around at the bottom of the boat.

1870
01:52:29,479 --> 01:52:33,280
Speaker 1: But you know, some folks again for the meat, the

1871
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:36,439
Speaker 1: consistency of meat that they're looking for. It's like you

1872
01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:41,400
Speaker 1: want to leave that heart pumping pop a gil so

1873
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,519
Speaker 1: it's bleeding out. That doesn't sound very good. And then

1874
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:51,760
Speaker 1: there's that may practice miles about that. That's that that

1875
01:52:51,840 --> 01:52:54,760
Speaker 1: can't be a good a good way to go. That's

1876
01:52:54,760 --> 01:52:57,720
Speaker 1: where that's where the man. Once you e k G

1877
01:52:57,880 --> 01:53:02,640
Speaker 1: may something. It's dead dead dead dead dead, Yeah, the

1878
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:09,200
Speaker 1: dead dead. Explain what that is e k G. Man Um. Basically,

1879
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 1: you start at the tail um and there's a lot

1880
01:53:12,040 --> 01:53:15,439
Speaker 1: to do with like getting the fish cold um, but

1881
01:53:15,479 --> 01:53:20,439
Speaker 1: it's still alive. Um. You cut the tail open. It

1882
01:53:20,439 --> 01:53:22,679
Speaker 1: hasn't been bonked on the head or nothing. It hasn't

1883
01:53:22,680 --> 01:53:25,760
Speaker 1: been bonked on the head. Yeah, you peel the tail back.

1884
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:28,519
Speaker 1: You take a metal rod and you running up the

1885
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: spinal column to the base of the brain. And what

1886
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:37,760
Speaker 1: that does is it uh prevents the fish going uh

1887
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 1: for going through riga moartas changes change us the way. Yeah,

1888
01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:44,839
Speaker 1: we had a guy right in all about this changes

1889
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,479
Speaker 1: the way to say, like there's like when you slaughter cattle.

1890
01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:52,479
Speaker 1: Have you ever watching the slaughter cattle and a slaughter facility?

1891
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:57,559
Speaker 1: Not personally, so I think this is the right sequence.

1892
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:01,639
Speaker 1: The hit with a captive bolt gun, hoist it up,

1893
01:54:02,479 --> 01:54:07,000
Speaker 1: cut it, electrocute it, electrify it. And that has to

1894
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:12,000
Speaker 1: do with yeah, it has to do with like neat

1895
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:15,439
Speaker 1: quality issues. But it just melts. There's no like like

1896
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:18,559
Speaker 1: changes the way. It's like seized up. And and we're

1897
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:20,759
Speaker 1: the first time I went to Guyana, they killed turtles

1898
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:23,120
Speaker 1: that way. Cut the head off the turtle and take

1899
01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:25,280
Speaker 1: a long skewer. Did they go out caught in the jungle,

1900
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,240
Speaker 1: Take a long skewer and run it down the turtle spine,

1901
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: down the center of the spine. Because normally if you

1902
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:32,720
Speaker 1: kill a snap and turl, you can't clean it for

1903
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 1: an hour or two. You clean that turtle the second

1904
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 1: you cut its head off because once you e K G.

1905
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 1: Made it, I'm using verb form up. Once you did

1906
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:44,760
Speaker 1: that to it, you could lift this leg up and

1907
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:47,600
Speaker 1: drop it and the leg just falls flat dead. There's

1908
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 1: no nerve like, there's no like nerve contraction. It just melts.

1909
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 1: That's fascinating telling you what, man, And it has to

1910
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 1: do with like like sushi, and you know the applications.

1911
01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm not even totally checked out. I need to tell

1912
01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:06,240
Speaker 1: again this is somebody reading about it right now. But

1913
01:55:06,280 --> 01:55:08,879
Speaker 1: it was interesting on the fish thing because if at

1914
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 1: any point in time a thousand years ago, um, somebody

1915
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:21,200
Speaker 1: truly thought fish had pain experiencing that, I think it'd

1916
01:55:21,200 --> 01:55:23,360
Speaker 1: take a real tough son of a bit should be like, listen, man,

1917
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 1: I know it's really gonna hurt, but I'm gonna run

1918
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: this metal route up your spine. If you're quick about it. Yeah,

1919
01:55:32,480 --> 01:55:37,160
Speaker 1: you know what's dead. It's going to be dead, real dead. Yes,

1920
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:40,760
Speaker 1: if I did that to you, just like jelly, no

1921
01:55:40,880 --> 01:55:43,960
Speaker 1: bringing you back. But I think I think the point

1922
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:46,400
Speaker 1: here that s important is that like, is it possible

1923
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:52,080
Speaker 1: that that we are anthropomorphizing all the game as it's

1924
01:55:52,160 --> 01:55:54,960
Speaker 1: very possible, But I also think that that's there's there's

1925
01:55:55,120 --> 01:55:57,800
Speaker 1: a validity to that, to it to to take best

1926
01:55:57,800 --> 01:56:02,879
Speaker 1: practices that we can to tomize the potential of suffering,

1927
01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:05,360
Speaker 1: whether because we do not know, like, at least from

1928
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:07,040
Speaker 1: the research that I was reading, we do not know.

1929
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:10,480
Speaker 1: You're not ruining You're not like ruining the meat. No,

1930
01:56:11,240 --> 01:56:15,120
Speaker 1: you're not. It's like it's not costing you anything. And

1931
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:18,160
Speaker 1: if it's only a ten percent chance that it's diminishing suffering,

1932
01:56:18,160 --> 01:56:21,440
Speaker 1: why not exactly? And from a oral standpoint, it's just

1933
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,320
Speaker 1: better ground to stand on. Yeah, I feel like we

1934
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:27,000
Speaker 1: can feel better about ourselves as hunters and anglers if

1935
01:56:27,040 --> 01:56:29,520
Speaker 1: we have a higher degree of respect for the animal

1936
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: in its life. And I feel like, you know, in

1937
01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:35,600
Speaker 1: the day and age we live in, having you know,

1938
01:56:35,720 --> 01:56:40,840
Speaker 1: a positive public perception of our practices is as is

1939
01:56:41,000 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 1: very important that we consider these things. In fact, just

1940
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:46,800
Speaker 1: the very fact that we consider them. I think it's beneficial.

1941
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 1: Was the name of your article, Miles, Uh, it's it's

1942
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:56,040
Speaker 1: it's currently being decided because it hasn't come out yet.

1943
01:56:56,440 --> 01:56:58,400
Speaker 1: It will be coming out next week, so we we

1944
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 1: the draft hoppy is finished, But you go with a

1945
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 1: clever one or just one that lays it right. Out.

1946
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure yet. Like I've got two different options

1947
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 1: right now, so I'm I'm I mean, the obvious one

1948
01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:12,280
Speaker 1: is do fish feel pain? I've seen that or that exactly.

1949
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:16,880
Speaker 1: That undersells it, man, I know, I think you should

1950
01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:19,520
Speaker 1: call it um. It's working on ethical right now. It's

1951
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: ethical fish killing. It's sort of the working title. But

1952
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:23,720
Speaker 1: I think that's lame and I want to get more interesting.

1953
01:57:25,480 --> 01:57:27,440
Speaker 1: I don't have a good title. I'm working on it.

1954
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:30,040
Speaker 1: I was trying to get to a one fish to

1955
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:33,520
Speaker 1: fish red fish. Oh yeah, that's a type of situation.

1956
01:57:33,640 --> 01:57:36,760
Speaker 1: I was trying to go with fish. I was trying

1957
01:57:36,760 --> 01:57:39,839
Speaker 1: to go with a play on Nirvana or Kurt Cobain.

1958
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:43,240
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's another lyric we get to extract there.

1959
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 1: There was there was one of those in the spirit

1960
01:57:46,960 --> 01:57:52,360
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, de fish, real quick? What's wrong? Honest? Well,

1961
01:57:52,400 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 1: I just want to say something. I've been listening to

1962
01:57:54,120 --> 01:57:55,760
Speaker 1: you guys talk for like ten minutes. I was gon

1963
01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:01,000
Speaker 1: and uh, I just feeling It's fun because last night

1964
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:03,160
Speaker 1: my wife and now we're talking about just like how

1965
01:58:03,360 --> 01:58:06,240
Speaker 1: much does an animals suffer? We're like the kids were

1966
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,480
Speaker 1: somehow the HSUS came into it. And we're trying to

1967
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:13,040
Speaker 1: explain to kids like species versus individual animals, and we

1968
01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:17,120
Speaker 1: got talking about suffering whatever until like we actually are

1969
01:58:17,200 --> 01:58:20,920
Speaker 1: able to say, yes, this is the experience the animal hats.

1970
01:58:21,360 --> 01:58:23,840
Speaker 1: We can't really even use a term and apply the

1971
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:27,360
Speaker 1: term suffering to them because you just don't know. And

1972
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, look at how individuals are different. You might

1973
01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:32,520
Speaker 1: suffer when we're out there in Alaska in the rain

1974
01:58:32,640 --> 01:58:35,560
Speaker 1: and it's shitty and you have a suffering sensation. I

1975
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:38,760
Speaker 1: might not. I might relish that, and and and and

1976
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:41,200
Speaker 1: and do well in it, right, and so like it's

1977
01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:44,160
Speaker 1: and it's we bring up these things were like we're like, oh, well,

1978
01:58:44,360 --> 01:58:46,760
Speaker 1: we feel better about it, and sure we do, but

1979
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:50,400
Speaker 1: it's like this made up fantasy really that like it's

1980
01:58:50,400 --> 01:58:53,520
Speaker 1: in our own heads that we now feel better about

1981
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:55,240
Speaker 1: this thing that we're doing where we really don't have

1982
01:58:56,640 --> 01:58:59,440
Speaker 1: like there's just no basis to it because we don't know.

1983
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 1: You could say in the experience. You can say the

1984
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:06,760
Speaker 1: same thing though about all fair chase philosophy. Totally no,

1985
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: And I agree, like it's something that we've made up

1986
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:11,840
Speaker 1: and we decided that those are the rules that we're

1987
01:59:11,840 --> 01:59:14,040
Speaker 1: going to play by. Yeah, well, that that's what ethics is.

1988
01:59:15,840 --> 01:59:20,520
Speaker 1: An animal rights ethicist that I spoke with, the guy

1989
01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 1: that's interviewed in the Stars in This Guy documentary, he

1990
01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:27,760
Speaker 1: one of the things he tries not try it out.

1991
01:59:27,760 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things you explained to me

1992
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:30,920
Speaker 1: is he's like, look at the way are like the

1993
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:35,680
Speaker 1: way the country handles human rights. All we recognize that

1994
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 1: all people have rights. It's not we don't base out

1995
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:43,760
Speaker 1: your rights like an American's rights recognized by the government.

1996
01:59:43,920 --> 01:59:45,960
Speaker 1: We don't go like, oh yeah, but you're not that smart,

1997
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:51,320
Speaker 1: so you don't have them, or um, you know, you're

1998
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:54,400
Speaker 1: handicapped in some way, so you don't have them. It's

1999
01:59:54,440 --> 01:59:56,720
Speaker 1: just that we extend them. We agree on these ideas

2000
01:59:56,760 --> 02:00:00,120
Speaker 1: that all people are created equal have these things. And

2001
02:00:00,200 --> 02:00:04,760
Speaker 1: so that's what makes him uncomfortable with this idea. Well,

2002
02:00:04,840 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it too dear, um, but I would

2003
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:11,560
Speaker 1: do it to a fish. But he does a better,

2004
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:14,320
Speaker 1: far better job of articulating this than I do. But

2005
02:00:14,520 --> 02:00:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm kind of doing like such a bad job. I

2006
02:00:15,960 --> 02:00:18,680
Speaker 1: almost regret bringing it up. But you get the point. No, no, absolutely,

2007
02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:22,080
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned him because his segment in

2008
02:00:22,120 --> 02:00:25,080
Speaker 1: that film absolutely informed by thinking on this. I thought

2009
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:28,680
Speaker 1: I thought that was a super interesting inclusion to the

2010
02:00:29,040 --> 02:00:31,960
Speaker 1: your discussion of hunting. Yeah, he's a good dude, like

2011
02:00:31,960 --> 02:00:37,280
Speaker 1: an interesting well spoken um looks the part of a philosopher.

2012
02:00:38,080 --> 02:00:41,160
Speaker 1: He's an interesting guy. Oh that the human hierarchy of

2013
02:00:41,320 --> 02:00:47,560
Speaker 1: animals is something that I find really terrible. It's you. You,

2014
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:49,520
Speaker 1: you'd get a lot of advantage out of that. You know.

2015
02:00:51,200 --> 02:00:56,000
Speaker 1: Do I get a personally know what he's saying? You do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, sure,

2016
02:00:56,040 --> 02:01:00,000
Speaker 1: I know what. I know what you've been eating. Um

2017
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 1: all right, seth, sorry, um, just so we don't have

2018
02:01:02,640 --> 02:01:05,200
Speaker 1: to deal with it next time we podcast E K G. May.

2019
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:07,920
Speaker 1: I just did a quick search, read three quick different articles.

2020
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:11,280
Speaker 1: And they do because the main purpose is to do

2021
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:14,160
Speaker 1: it quickly to end up with a better quality flesh.

2022
02:01:14,440 --> 02:01:16,880
Speaker 1: And so there's a spike driven usually right, that's right

2023
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:22,000
Speaker 1: to kill it and then the process of bleeding and

2024
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,320
Speaker 1: severing the spinal Helen Choe Helen Show and her boyfriend

2025
02:01:25,760 --> 02:01:31,200
Speaker 1: do it, and they have a special spike. That's right.

2026
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:33,200
Speaker 1: I forgot all about it. He's got a special spike

2027
02:01:33,280 --> 02:01:36,280
Speaker 1: and a special wire and he takes the special spike

2028
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:38,160
Speaker 1: and puts it in a special place in the fish's

2029
02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 1: head and then runs the wire up. That's exactly right.

2030
02:01:42,080 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 1: I would think he's got like a little special driver

2031
02:01:44,120 --> 02:01:48,520
Speaker 1: for a spike. This is very particular about the placement

2032
02:01:48,560 --> 02:01:50,560
Speaker 1: of said spike. Now that I think about it, I'm

2033
02:01:50,560 --> 02:01:53,240
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. The picture here looks very

2034
02:01:53,280 --> 02:01:56,520
Speaker 1: much like were you fishing with us out there? We

2035
02:01:57,840 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 1: had the fish raw? Was it especially good? It's good, man,

2036
02:02:02,840 --> 02:02:04,600
Speaker 1: we had a lot of it. It's a bummer when

2037
02:02:04,600 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: you get back to the dock and most of your

2038
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:11,360
Speaker 1: fishes are eating up. Yeah, living in the moment um

2039
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:19,600
Speaker 1: anything else, Yeah, no, seth bad. You'd be a bison hunter,

2040
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 1: I know. And you could have gone down and tried

2041
02:02:22,160 --> 02:02:26,160
Speaker 1: to implore them to extend the season. Yeah. I tried.

2042
02:02:26,280 --> 02:02:29,520
Speaker 1: I know I tried that. But no word of it,

2043
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:32,680
Speaker 1: not not that I've heard of yet. I feel like,

2044
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:35,080
Speaker 1: if it was gonna happen, what happened, right, Yeah, I

2045
02:02:35,120 --> 02:02:41,440
Speaker 1: think so, Sam. Final thoughts concluders, you know, I'm talked out. Really,

2046
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 1: you got water coming in over your waiters, bro. No,

2047
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:47,920
Speaker 1: I think it's good. I'll stay. I'll keep my feet

2048
02:02:47,960 --> 02:02:49,360
Speaker 1: on the bottom. You did a great job, man, I

2049
02:02:49,360 --> 02:02:51,720
Speaker 1: don't want to do it. Someone had to do it. Yeah.

2050
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:53,320
Speaker 1: I felt I felt like it was I felt like

2051
02:02:53,600 --> 02:02:57,280
Speaker 1: it was something you know, in the space we exist

2052
02:02:57,320 --> 02:03:00,400
Speaker 1: in as the company that we are, I felt like

2053
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:02,720
Speaker 1: somebody had to talk about it, and I I didn't

2054
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:04,840
Speaker 1: want to put that on anyone else, So I decided

2055
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:06,480
Speaker 1: to do it myself. And it was. It's been. It's

2056
02:03:06,480 --> 02:03:10,360
Speaker 1: been a fascinating, a fascinating process, and uh, I hope

2057
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 1: people understand that trying my best to to give you

2058
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:16,800
Speaker 1: the most accurate version of the truth and I'm not

2059
02:03:16,840 --> 02:03:20,440
Speaker 1: trying to preference it either way, will continue to be fascinating.

2060
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:24,760
Speaker 1: It will continue to be fascinating. Miles Maulty, I'm gonna

2061
02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:27,160
Speaker 1: echo the praise that you've given Sam. I think you

2062
02:03:27,160 --> 02:03:28,720
Speaker 1: did a really good job of that piece. I think

2063
02:03:28,760 --> 02:03:31,080
Speaker 1: that's a really hard one to do, and I'm glad

2064
02:03:31,080 --> 02:03:34,240
Speaker 1: it didn't fall to me. You grad to find about

2065
02:03:34,320 --> 02:03:38,600
Speaker 1: flopping perch that that one. I feel like I can

2066
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 1: get my head around and I will piss off a

2067
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:45,160
Speaker 1: lot fewer people. Yeah, you never know, though, You'll always

2068
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:48,320
Speaker 1: find someone to get mad. I'm good at pissing people off.

2069
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:53,880
Speaker 1: I've done that my whole career. Okay, do you want

2070
02:03:53,920 --> 02:03:58,160
Speaker 1: me to clarify my hierarchy of animals statement? I was,

2071
02:03:59,040 --> 02:04:03,160
Speaker 1: it's I is just excluding the human animal from that equation.

2072
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:05,960
Speaker 1: Oh I thought you're talking about position at the top

2073
02:04:06,000 --> 02:04:09,080
Speaker 1: of the higherarchy. No, no, it just it really bothers

2074
02:04:09,080 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 1: me where it's like, well, yeah, but that one special

2075
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, it goes in the charismatic Magafana argument that

2076
02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:18,000
Speaker 1: we always talk about. It just drives me crazy that

2077
02:04:18,080 --> 02:04:22,200
Speaker 1: people are so disconnected from what food is, so disconnected

2078
02:04:22,280 --> 02:04:26,880
Speaker 1: from the animals, yet they feel like glue trapping mice

2079
02:04:26,920 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 1: and ship like that. Yeah, slapping the glue trapping mice

2080
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:36,120
Speaker 1: and getting worked up because some guys eating deer somewhere.

2081
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:40,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, But I mean we play we play into

2082
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:44,200
Speaker 1: that too on some level. I mean, most hunters get

2083
02:04:44,240 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 1: weird about, you know, when to eat a monkey, Oh yeah,

2084
02:04:48,600 --> 02:04:51,280
Speaker 1: or dog? Yeah, dude, I'm telling you what. Everyone bleeds

2085
02:04:51,280 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 1: in the hierarchy. Yeah, I put monkeys on the thing. Well.

2086
02:04:55,200 --> 02:04:57,280
Speaker 1: I remember when we were at the fish shack years

2087
02:04:57,280 --> 02:05:02,960
Speaker 1: ago and your oldest boy was challenging the hierarchy. He

2088
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:08,600
Speaker 1: was scooping up all these little eels and hermit crabs

2089
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:10,800
Speaker 1: and stuff, and he'd get them all situated in bucket,

2090
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:13,400
Speaker 1: and he'd have like little caves and stuff for him,

2091
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: and then every morning everything could just be belly up

2092
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:20,000
Speaker 1: in that bucket, you know. And uh, that kind of

2093
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:24,080
Speaker 1: everybody kind of got together and I was like, all right, um,

2094
02:05:24,240 --> 02:05:27,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be good at the end of the day.

2095
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:32,200
Speaker 1: At the end of the day. But he flipped about

2096
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:37,640
Speaker 1: se cucumbers cucumbers. So his hierarchy is that like fish, eels,

2097
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 1: crabs or gunnals gunnalfish just look like an eel that

2098
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:47,480
Speaker 1: somehow the lowly c cucumber like dassn't be touched, but

2099
02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:55,560
Speaker 1: he will suffocate innumerable other creatures and artificial like aquarium settings.

2100
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:59,240
Speaker 1: Perhaps the least cute and at least like least human

2101
02:06:00,400 --> 02:06:03,480
Speaker 1: being there is a c cucumber just doesn't look like anything.

2102
02:06:03,520 --> 02:06:05,720
Speaker 1: It looks like something that has a doctor in his mind.

2103
02:06:05,720 --> 02:06:07,880
Speaker 1: It was like, how could you hurt such a thing?

2104
02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:10,720
Speaker 1: I need to go and dump out all the dead

2105
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:14,640
Speaker 1: stuff from my bucket. I'll tell you he's not he's

2106
02:06:14,640 --> 02:06:18,520
Speaker 1: not interesting. Putting a perch back. No, no, no, he

2107
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:22,120
Speaker 1: was upset with me yesterday. He doesn't like that kind

2108
02:06:22,160 --> 02:06:25,920
Speaker 1: of stuff at all. I got no concluders. Did ever

2109
02:06:26,000 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 1: get a concluder in You're good except for you good

2110
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:32,560
Speaker 1: almost no, I'm spent alright, guys. Thanks