WEBVTT - Puzzle Rush 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:27.076 --> 0:00:30.516 It's eight o'clock in the morning on a Saturday, a 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:37.276 little chili deep in downtown Manhattan. Streets are empty. I'm 0:00:37.316 --> 0:00:41.076 standing on the sidewalk with my assistant, Camille Baptista. 0:00:41.476 --> 0:00:44.756 First of all, Camille needs no did you did you 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:45.596 sleep well last night? 0:00:45.916 --> 0:00:49.676 I did sleep well. Yes, I did not, really I could. 0:00:49.556 --> 0:00:50.356 Almost know sleep. 0:00:50.356 --> 0:00:53.116 And I had a nightmare about the l SAT that 0:00:53.276 --> 0:00:55.516 I left before him so over. I had an exam 0:00:55.596 --> 0:00:57.716 nightmare from high school, essentially a high. 0:00:57.556 --> 0:00:59.476 School See you left before it was over. 0:01:01.596 --> 0:01:04.436 I had a nightmare about the l SAT that I 0:01:04.516 --> 0:01:08.276 walked out before the test was over. Oh but my 0:01:08.476 --> 0:01:23.156 nightmare was just beginning. This is Malcolm Gladwell. I'm back 0:01:23.396 --> 0:01:27.636 with season four of Revisionist History, my podcast about things 0:01:27.676 --> 0:01:40.476 overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is about what happened when 0:01:40.516 --> 0:01:44.676 Camille and I took the law school admissions test. We 0:01:44.756 --> 0:01:48.356 had three number two pencils each, a small pack of Kleenex, 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:51.876 a package of trail Mix, all in clear plastic bags. 0:01:52.396 --> 0:01:55.596 We lined up outside Pacey University with hundreds of other 0:01:55.636 --> 0:02:00.996 nervous people clutching clear plastic bags. Everyone wanted someday to 0:02:01.036 --> 0:02:05.596 become lawyers except us. We were there in the name 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:06.196 of science. 0:02:09.796 --> 0:02:10.316 We had to go. 0:02:10.716 --> 0:02:15.836 Yeah, it's all been very traumatic and stressful, but I 0:02:15.876 --> 0:02:17.356 wanted to get one last thing. I would like to 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:20.436 get your handicap on your chances of beating Just tell 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:21.516 me what you think your chances. 0:02:21.356 --> 0:02:25.556 Of beating me are my chances as a Your mom, 0:02:25.596 --> 0:02:27.516 I would point out, was quite confident you would win. 0:02:28.516 --> 0:02:31.476 My mom is confident in me no matter what, which 0:02:31.516 --> 0:02:35.396 is very nice, but you know, maybe unrealistic. Uh, you know, 0:02:35.596 --> 0:02:39.756 I don't know. Fifty to fifty, Camille, I really am. 0:02:40.116 --> 0:02:42.636 I told you I am twenty four. 0:02:43.196 --> 0:02:45.636 Okay, I can't even I won't even tell you how 0:02:45.756 --> 0:02:47.956 I am. But it's it is a It is a 0:02:48.036 --> 0:02:49.796 large multiple of your age, I know. 0:02:49.836 --> 0:02:51.596 But I don't think it has I don't think it 0:02:51.596 --> 0:02:52.956 has to do with age. I think it has to 0:02:52.956 --> 0:02:57.476 do with reading ability. And you read non stop twenty 0:02:57.516 --> 0:02:58.236 four hours a day. 0:02:58.356 --> 0:03:01.516 I've been an intellectual. I've been in cognitive cline for 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:06.556 thirty years. It's all going to be exposed. All right, 0:03:06.636 --> 0:03:13.036 we're off, We're going to go. I got the idea 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:16.316 of taking the l SAT from a man named William Henderson. 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:19.516 I read a paper that he wrote. It was on 0:03:19.596 --> 0:03:23.316 my favorite website SSRN, which is where academics from around 0:03:23.356 --> 0:03:26.356 the world post their papers and they get ranked. If 0:03:26.356 --> 0:03:29.316 you're a regular listener to this podcast, you'll know how 0:03:29.436 --> 0:03:36.076 genius I think SSRN is. Anyway, this paper was called 0:03:36.596 --> 0:03:41.356 the l SAT Law School Exams and Meritocracy, The Surprising 0:03:41.436 --> 0:03:46.836 and under Theorized role of test taking Speed. Anything with 0:03:46.956 --> 0:03:50.276 the words surprising and under theorized in the title, of course, 0:03:50.636 --> 0:03:53.516 is going to be catnet for me. So I read it, 0:03:54.276 --> 0:03:58.836 then I read it again. Then I had to meet him. 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:02.076 So just a little bit of a background here. I 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:04.276 didn't go to law schoolto was thirty five, and so 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:07.996 I had had a whole career before then. 0:04:08.356 --> 0:04:11.476 Why what were you doing before you became a lawyer. 0:04:12.036 --> 0:04:15.036 I was a firefighter paramedic. I was a union rep 0:04:15.196 --> 0:04:18.916 for a suburban Cleveland fire department. I did that for 0:04:19.556 --> 0:04:21.956 nine years and as a kid, people, and remember, I'm 0:04:21.996 --> 0:04:24.356 kidding as I went to law school because of those 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:25.916 bastard management attorneys. 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:29.276 Henderson goes to law school. After that, he gets a 0:04:29.276 --> 0:04:32.196 clerkship with a judge and one day he's in a 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:34.876 shower and a thought occurs to him. What was the 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:40.276 aha in a shower? The specific aha was what. 0:04:39.076 --> 0:04:43.796 Was my God? The two most time pressure things I've 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:46.636 ever done in my life is taking the LSAT and 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:48.396 these damn law school exams. 0:04:48.716 --> 0:04:51.876 He had been a firefighter paramedic, he had raced to 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:54.276 the streets of Cleveland to save people on the brink 0:04:54.316 --> 0:04:57.556 of death. And then most time pressure he'd ever felt 0:04:57.836 --> 0:04:59.756 was taking the l set to get into law school 0:04:59.836 --> 0:05:01.836 and then taking the exams once he got there. 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:06.236 I can remember taking Cass Sunstein's Elements exam my first 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:08.036 year of law school is a two hour exam. 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:11.916 Stein used to teach at the University of Chicago, which 0:05:11.956 --> 0:05:14.876 is where Henderson went to law school. He's a genius. 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:17.316 He asked the kind of questions that you can spend 0:05:17.356 --> 0:05:22.436 months years thinking about. But his exam two hours. That's 0:05:22.476 --> 0:05:23.236 all you got. 0:05:23.476 --> 0:05:26.956 The proctor said time, and everybody dropped their pencils and 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:30.956 there was this huge ug you know, everybody was like 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:33.876 groaning that they didn't get more time to keep on 0:05:33.956 --> 0:05:36.996 working on Cass Sunstein's Element exam. It's like, you know, 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:39.676 ninety people who all dropped their pencil and they're all, 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:43.156 you know, exclaiming the desire for more time. That was 0:05:43.196 --> 0:05:44.356 a memorable experience. 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:48.196 Now, I'm sure this is obvious to you, particularly if 0:05:48.196 --> 0:05:51.276 you're an American. You've been tested a thousand times in 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:55.796 your life, SAT ACT, GRE on and on, and every 0:05:55.836 --> 0:05:58.996 one of those standardized tests doesn't just test whether you 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.236 can answer the question correctly. They test how quickly you 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:05.636 can answer the question correctly. But I'm a Canadian. I've 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:08.836 never taken a standardized test in my life, and as 0:06:08.836 --> 0:06:11.716 an hour I have to say the whole system seems 0:06:11.756 --> 0:06:16.796 really weird. Why is quicker better? The L set is 0:06:16.876 --> 0:06:20.916 Exhibit A. It's the single most important thing that determines 0:06:21.156 --> 0:06:23.836 where you go to law school. Nothing else comes close. 0:06:24.276 --> 0:06:26.716 And what is it? It's around one hundred and twenty 0:06:26.756 --> 0:06:33.156 five questions, divided among five sections analytical reasoning, reading, comprehension, 0:06:33.596 --> 0:06:37.796 two sections on dissecting an argument, and one experimental section. 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:41.836 Everything's multiple choice. You mark your answers with a pencil 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:45.316 by filling in little bubbles on an answer sheet like 0:06:45.356 --> 0:06:49.236 an IBM punch card. A perfect score is one eighty, 0:06:49.636 --> 0:06:52.436 and if you're a super go getter, you cannot score 0:06:52.516 --> 0:06:55.676 below one seventy five because then you can't get into 0:06:55.676 --> 0:06:58.036 Harvard and if you can't get into Harvard, you're never 0:06:58.076 --> 0:06:59.836 going to get an offer from a big law firm 0:07:00.036 --> 0:07:04.516 or get a Supreme Court clerkship. Your life is over everything. 0:07:04.796 --> 0:07:08.996 The country club, the BMW, the multiple cases of two thousand, 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:14.876 Chateau Lafitte, Rothschild, it hinges on those five sections, And 0:07:14.996 --> 0:07:16.916 how long do you get to spend on each of 0:07:16.916 --> 0:07:21.876 those five sections? Thirty five minutes, not forty, not fifty, 0:07:22.276 --> 0:07:25.556 not fifty five. And if you finish up one section early, 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:27.636 you don't get to add that time to the next section. 0:07:28.396 --> 0:07:31.436 When we decide who is smart enough to be a lawyer, 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:38.356 we use a stopwatch. So that was William Henderson's question. 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:41.556 What does putting that thirty five minute time limit on 0:07:41.596 --> 0:07:46.156 a cognitive test like the LSAT do? So I said 0:07:46.196 --> 0:07:51.436 to Camille, let's find out, And because we're both super competitive, 0:07:51.676 --> 0:07:55.716 the whole thing got very involved. The first thing I 0:07:55.756 --> 0:07:58.876 would like to do is to understand on a very 0:07:58.996 --> 0:08:03.996 very granular level, what time pressure means for the way 0:08:04.036 --> 0:08:07.716 people take the test, the strategies they use, the kinds 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:12.556 of mistakes they may specific Everyone told me that there 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:14.236 was no way I could do well on the l 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:17.676 set without getting some coaching. So I went to one 0:08:17.676 --> 0:08:21.516 of the top new educational technology startups in America, a 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:25.676 company in New York called Noodle, started by John Katzman, 0:08:25.996 --> 0:08:28.516 who before this was one of the founders of the 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:32.796 famous Princeton Review test prep company. I sat down with 0:08:32.876 --> 0:08:35.676 Katsman and two of his top people in a big 0:08:35.796 --> 0:08:40.276 loft building on Union Square in Manhattan. Katzman, Fritz Stewart 0:08:40.476 --> 0:08:41.676 and Dan Edmonds. 0:08:42.116 --> 0:08:43.476 No, but I am very. 0:08:45.116 --> 0:08:47.316 Very anxious not to lose to Camille. 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:50.236 So I thought he was she born in the US 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:51.196 or in the UK. 0:08:51.356 --> 0:08:53.916 Oh, she's went to a fancy school, like this serious, 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:59.116 seriously intelligent woman. But I'm saying US or UK, we US. 0:08:58.956 --> 0:08:59.556 Okay, you have. 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:06.556 Oh great, I'm too old and I'm from the wrong country. 0:09:07.236 --> 0:09:10.956 It was not an encouraging start. I've done things under 0:09:10.996 --> 0:09:15.036 time pressure before. Of course. I've written newspaper stories on deadline, 0:09:15.196 --> 0:09:18.156 I wrote exams in college. In those cases, though, the 0:09:18.236 --> 0:09:21.476 task required me to be me only with a sense 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:24.276 of urgency. But the first thing the Noodle guys told 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:27.396 me was the l set didn't require me to be me. 0:09:28.036 --> 0:09:30.036 It required me to be someone else. 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:33.436 A lot of it is about helping people understand. They 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:35.476 don't get to do this at a comfortable speed. 0:09:35.836 --> 0:09:37.396 It's Dan Edmonds right. 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:39.796 In order to finish these sections, you have to do 0:09:39.836 --> 0:09:42.876 it at a speed that's a little uncomfortable, which means 0:09:42.956 --> 0:09:47.436 you have to hone your instincts by the test rules, 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:48.876 not by your rules. 0:09:49.676 --> 0:09:52.116 What does it mean to read it at an uncomfortable speed? 0:09:54.436 --> 0:09:54.756 For me? 0:09:54.996 --> 0:09:58.556 It means that if there's something like in a reading 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:01.156 comprehension passage, if I hit a paragraph that I don't 0:10:01.196 --> 0:10:03.236 fully understand, I don't get to go back and reread it. 0:10:03.716 --> 0:10:05.236 I just kind of have to accept the parts that 0:10:05.236 --> 0:10:06.316 I understand and move on. 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:10.836 The noodle guys approach the l set like pathologists approach 0:10:11.036 --> 0:10:11.636 a cadaver. 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:14.476 For me, I'm like, Eh, all right, I didn't get that, 0:10:14.636 --> 0:10:16.916 But if a question asks about it, I will go back. 0:10:16.916 --> 0:10:19.156 But it doesn't bother me as long as I understand 0:10:19.156 --> 0:10:21.636 the topic, sentence of the paragraph, and the overall thrust 0:10:21.676 --> 0:10:24.036 of the author's argument. If I miss a few details 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:27.356 here and there, or even a chunk of the argument, 0:10:27.596 --> 0:10:30.596 I'm like, all right, fine, who cares, I'll go dig 0:10:30.636 --> 0:10:31.876 it out exactly when I need to. 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:35.756 Wait. It's okay to miss a chunk of the argument. 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:39.436 So I don't even aim for a level of what 0:10:39.476 --> 0:10:43.036 we would normally call comprehension, and my first read I 0:10:43.076 --> 0:10:46.556 am out to process the information, not understand it. I 0:10:46.556 --> 0:10:48.836 don't get any points for understanding it. I get points 0:10:48.836 --> 0:10:50.036 for bubbling in the right question. 0:10:50.636 --> 0:10:52.156 I imagine that when you read, there are lots of 0:10:52.156 --> 0:10:54.356 moments where you sort of oh, that's an interesting point, 0:10:54.356 --> 0:10:56.036 and you sort of pause and you think, and you 0:10:56.636 --> 0:10:59.116 let your mind meander a little bit. There's no meander 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:01.916 time on the alf set, there's no digression time. 0:11:02.436 --> 0:11:06.196 Meander and digression are my whole m. That's what I 0:11:06.316 --> 0:11:08.716 do for a living. What do you think this podcast 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:13.716 comes from? So then John Katzman gave me a sample question. 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.476 What I would have you do is read this, and 0:11:17.516 --> 0:11:21.676 then for each of these questions, tell me the two 0:11:21.796 --> 0:11:27.316 stupidest answers, too stupidest, okay, the two answer choices that 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:28.316 you know are wrong. 0:11:28.676 --> 0:11:29.796 WHOA, this is what? 0:11:30.436 --> 0:11:31.036 That's what I'm saying. 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:33.156 You can't read this on a podcast, No, No, I can't. 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:37.356 The passage with six hundred words it seemed longer. I've 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:40.196 just been told that I don't need to understand it. 0:11:40.796 --> 0:11:43.476 I don't need to comprehend it. It's okay if I 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:46.076 miss chunks of it. In other words, I'm supposed to 0:11:46.076 --> 0:11:48.876 read it without reading it. And as I sit there 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:51.796 puzzling about this, the three of them debate right in 0:11:51.836 --> 0:11:54.636 front of me. How long this reading without reading should take. 0:11:55.156 --> 0:11:59.236 John said a minute, Fritz said three tops, Dan said 0:11:59.356 --> 0:12:02.236 it depends on the person who's reading. The only thing 0:12:02.276 --> 0:12:04.716 they all agreed on was that I had to hurry. 0:12:04.676 --> 0:12:07.596 Fly and get the bones of the argument. 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:12.436 Now feel free to spend the time on the question itself. 0:12:12.836 --> 0:12:16.236 And again, all you're trying to do is tell me 0:12:16.276 --> 0:12:17.916 the two worst answers. 0:12:17.956 --> 0:12:20.276 Two worst answers, What do you tell me? I'm on 0:12:20.316 --> 0:12:20.876 your structure. 0:12:21.596 --> 0:12:25.676 Just so, this is on page one two right, already 0:12:26.036 --> 0:12:26.236 got it? 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:26.596 Okay? 0:12:26.796 --> 0:12:29.276 I read it out loud because I thought maybe that 0:12:29.316 --> 0:12:33.796 would help researcher. People who participate in opinion surveys often 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:37.116 give answers they believe the opinion surveyor wants to hear, 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:40.356 and for this reason that some opinion surveys do not 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:43.996 reflect the actual views of those being surveyed. However, in 0:12:44.076 --> 0:12:46.756 well constructed surveys, the questions are worded so as to 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:50.836 provide respondence with no indication of which answers the surveyor 0:12:50.956 --> 0:12:55.836 might expect after the passage. There were multiple sets of 0:12:55.916 --> 0:12:58.836 questions to test my understanding of what I had just 0:12:58.876 --> 0:13:01.556 not read. There were pages of them. So if a 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:05.716 survey is well constructed, survey responders desire to meet surveyor's 0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:10.596 expectations has no effect on the survey's results. The reasoning 0:13:10.636 --> 0:13:14.436 in the researcher's argument is questionable in that the argument 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:19.036 overlooks the possibility that they must say A and B 0:13:19.396 --> 0:13:20.996 are uh. 0:13:23.316 --> 0:13:25.756 Just across map and move on to the actions. 0:13:25.916 --> 0:13:27.836 Okay, those are the worst. 0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:29.836 Not They're wrong, They're the worst answers. 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:31.876 The clock is ticking. 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:38.036 Well, this is such a brutal passage, shine cruel, Jesus bananas. 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:39.476 What am I aunt? Time wise? 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:43.876 This is what they meant when they talked about uncomfortable reading. 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:47.796 I was being forced into a kind of altered, frenzied state. 0:13:48.476 --> 0:13:51.596 The word they used was breathless. You should be a 0:13:51.596 --> 0:13:55.436 little breathless, they said. I was breathless. I kept asking 0:13:55.956 --> 0:13:59.076 how much time has passed? They tell me my heart 0:13:59.116 --> 0:14:01.636 would accelerate. I started to panic. 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:07.116 Okay, okay, I have no idea what I did great 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:10.956 timing on that seven minute twenty. 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:13.996 So this section is how long minutes? 0:14:14.116 --> 0:14:15.996 Thirty five minutes, thirty five, thirty five. 0:14:15.796 --> 0:14:18.756 Minutes And we just did one, two, three, four, five, 0:14:20.076 --> 0:14:23.956 six seven questions you would have had, say, ten minutes. 0:14:25.276 --> 0:14:27.516 Yeah, but I haven't picked any right answers yet. 0:14:28.036 --> 0:14:30.716 But you've done all the harder And that was four 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:33.356 and a half oh seven and a half seven seven twenty. 0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:35.196 So you're tight. 0:14:36.236 --> 0:14:42.276 Oh man, you're not toast. Oh I'm toast. We did 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:45.236 another question. I was convinced the answer was B. 0:14:46.436 --> 0:14:46.836 It was C. 0:14:47.916 --> 0:14:52.356 I could feel Harvard slipping away. Great, thank you. Will 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:54.796 you guys think my aunts are of a beating Camille? 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:59.876 Do you want the honest answer? I think you're in 0:14:59.916 --> 0:15:03.036 real trouble, buddy. 0:15:06.316 --> 0:15:08.436 On the day of the l SAT, I sat in 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:11.356 a little class in one of those fixed half desks 0:15:11.356 --> 0:15:13.756 that I last had in grade school. We got our 0:15:13.836 --> 0:15:17.596 test packets. I raced through reading comprehension with time to 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:21.276 spare sections two and three. I was right up against 0:15:21.276 --> 0:15:27.476 the deadline. Then came analytical reasoning logic games, and I 0:15:27.556 --> 0:15:29.916 looked at the questions and what I had to figure 0:15:29.956 --> 0:15:33.076 out and realized that there was just no way I 0:15:33.116 --> 0:15:36.156 was going to finish in thirty five minutes. I needed 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:39.196 to slow down, and I wasn't allowed to slow down. 0:15:40.316 --> 0:15:43.236 I glanced behind me and there was Camille with like 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:47.556 a death stare in her eyes, ruthlessly dispatching question after question. 0:15:49.196 --> 0:15:51.476 Then I looked around some more and saw all these 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:55.556 kids half my age, beavering away full of purpose, because 0:15:55.596 --> 0:15:59.116 all you Americans, apparently except as Gospel, this idea that 0:15:59.156 --> 0:16:01.356 the smart person is not the person who gets the 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:04.476 right answer. The smart person is the person who gets 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:15.676 the right answer the quickest. Mercifully, it ended at one thirty. 0:16:16.036 --> 0:16:20.156 Camille and I stumbled outside into the sunshine, clutching our 0:16:20.156 --> 0:16:25.036 plastic baggies. Our producer, Jacob Smith was waiting. We had 0:16:25.476 --> 0:16:27.356 no idea some people wanted to be lawyers. 0:16:27.556 --> 0:16:28.676 First of all, that was a shock. 0:16:30.836 --> 0:16:34.396 Camille cheated because she she packed my We had to 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:37.436 have these plastic bags. She packed packed my plastic bag 0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:39.396 for me. But she gave herself like apples and like 0:16:39.436 --> 0:16:41.316 really really lutritious snacks. 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:44.636 And I got bags, which is the same thing. 0:16:45.476 --> 0:16:46.516 So you had fresh fruit. 0:16:46.556 --> 0:16:50.476 And Malcolm I did Malcolm on Trao Mix from CBS. 0:16:50.836 --> 0:16:55.276 But but but who sharpened all your pencils, Malcolm, and 0:16:55.596 --> 0:16:58.676 packed your little tissues in case your nose runs. 0:16:58.676 --> 0:17:01.956 Right now, after both taking it, who like, what's your 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:02.516 honest opinion? 0:17:02.556 --> 0:17:03.356 How do you think did better? 0:17:04.676 --> 0:17:04.836 Oh? 0:17:04.876 --> 0:17:05.916 I think it, Camille didn't. 0:17:07.076 --> 0:17:10.036 I was I did so poorly. I was fine, and 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:12.956 I got really cocky and then I hit the logic 0:17:12.996 --> 0:17:15.956 games and basically I think I got zero right. I 0:17:15.956 --> 0:17:18.196 had no idea what to do. I sat there and 0:17:18.276 --> 0:17:20.716 I was like in a state of complete panic. I 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:23.836 have I was untested until this moment. Now I have 0:17:23.916 --> 0:17:27.716 been tested. America has taken its measure of me, and 0:17:27.796 --> 0:17:33.276 I'm it's pretty it's pretty humbling experience. Why do Americans 0:17:33.356 --> 0:17:37.156 do this to themselves? Do they play scrabble with a stopwatch? 0:17:37.796 --> 0:17:40.916 In literature class? Do they get extra points for reading 0:17:40.996 --> 0:17:44.996 Tolstoi's War and Piece Overnight? Is there an oscar that 0:17:45.076 --> 0:17:46.876 goes out every year to the movie that got shot 0:17:46.916 --> 0:17:56.876 the quickest? I really don't get it. Okay, time to 0:17:56.996 --> 0:17:59.436 meander and digress. 0:17:59.956 --> 0:18:01.996 I became a grand master at fifteen, so I think 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:04.076 I became an im right after I turned thirteen. And 0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:06.596 I was a grand master at fifteen, so yeah, yeah, 0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:08.796 that was very very good at the time. 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:13.716 That's Hikaru Nakamura grew up in Westchester County, outside New 0:18:13.756 --> 0:18:16.556 York City. He's in his early thirties, although he looks 0:18:16.636 --> 0:18:19.676 about half that age. He's one of the best chess 0:18:19.676 --> 0:18:22.636 players in the world. How much chess were you playing 0:18:22.676 --> 0:18:23.236 as a kid? 0:18:23.836 --> 0:18:26.516 Pretty much all the time, so I was playing at 0:18:26.516 --> 0:18:29.036 the Marshall at least I would say two or three 0:18:29.076 --> 0:18:31.036 days every single week, and then I would also be 0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:33.956 playing blitz on the internet chess club. I would say 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:36.636 at least five to six hours every single day. 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:40.556 Years ago, I met Magnus Carlson, who is the greatest 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:43.036 chess player in the world, and I asked him how 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:45.676 much he used a chess board versus how much he 0:18:45.836 --> 0:18:50.156 just worked through chess positions in his mind, and he said, oh, 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:53.516 I've practiced mostly in my mind. In fact, I'm working 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:57.756 on an opening right now. Nakamura is a little like that. 0:18:58.396 --> 0:19:02.476 He's incredibly gracious and humble, but even when he's giving 0:19:02.556 --> 0:19:05.436 you what seems like his full attention, you get the 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:07.996 feeling that there's a whole separate part of his brain 0:19:08.316 --> 0:19:10.436 breaking down. A bus be Fisher match from the early 0:19:10.516 --> 0:19:14.556 nineteen seventies. The first thing I did after my disaster 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:17.796 with the l set was call up Hikaru, but I 0:19:17.796 --> 0:19:20.676 didn't want to talk to him about chess. I wanted 0:19:20.676 --> 0:19:23.796 to talk to him about time. So my first question 0:19:24.116 --> 0:19:28.316 about this would be what would happen within reason if 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:30.876 there was no clock? How does the way that you 0:19:30.916 --> 0:19:33.236 approach a game of chess change if I remove the 0:19:33.236 --> 0:19:34.436 time constrained entirely? 0:19:34.756 --> 0:19:37.756 All right, So if you remove time entirely from the 0:19:37.796 --> 0:19:42.196 game of Chuss, every game of trust would be drawn 0:19:42.356 --> 0:19:45.476 because without time, if you have an nast amount of 0:19:45.476 --> 0:19:47.636 time to think about any given move. If I could 0:19:47.676 --> 0:19:50.556 think for thirty minutes on every single move, I do 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:52.316 not think I would ever lose a game of trust 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:54.516 to a human. To a computer, I would still lose, 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:58.036 but to human even Magnus. Yeah, if I had an 0:19:58.036 --> 0:19:59.676 half hour for every move, I don't think I would 0:19:59.676 --> 0:20:00.596 ever lose to Magnus. 0:20:00.836 --> 0:20:04.036 This is why chess games have a time limit. Otherwise 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:06.676 it's not a game. Tournaments would go on for months 0:20:06.876 --> 0:20:09.436 and everyone would end up tied for first. It would 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:12.516 be like Little League. Everyone would get a participation trophy. 0:20:13.596 --> 0:20:16.796 So there's classical chess, which is the kind play of 0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:20.876 the World Championships. Classical allots ninety minutes for the first 0:20:20.916 --> 0:20:23.916 forty moves, then thirty minutes for the rest of the game. 0:20:24.276 --> 0:20:28.836 Winning at classical chess involves calculation, working through many possible 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:33.196 scenarios before deciding on a move. Then there's blitz chess. 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:36.556 That's what Hikara was playing for five or six hours 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:39.916 a day growing up. In blitz, each player gets five 0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:41.276 minutes for the whole game. 0:20:41.876 --> 0:20:44.316 When you play blitz chess, it very much becomes about 0:20:44.356 --> 0:20:47.636 finding moves that look good, that are not blunders, that 0:20:47.676 --> 0:20:49.956 you can play almost instantly, where you use a couple 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:51.516 of seconds. 0:20:51.516 --> 0:20:53.356 In classical how many moves would you go deep? 0:20:53.676 --> 0:20:56.036 It normally would be about five to six moves in 0:20:56.116 --> 0:20:58.396 about three or four branches. 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:02.516 It's a fantastically complex mental exercise. 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:04.676 Yes, very much. I mean it's probably at least I 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:08.116 would say, close to one hundred different different permutations of 0:21:08.276 --> 0:21:10.316 moves or a sequence. Is that you're looking at for 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:11.196 every single move? 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:15.556 Yeah? Yeah. In blitz we've truncated that process. 0:21:15.876 --> 0:21:16.116 Right. 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:21.276 Everything about Blitz and classical is the same same pieces, 0:21:21.476 --> 0:21:26.116 same board, same players, same choreographed openings, but the time 0:21:26.156 --> 0:21:29.196 limits are different and what happens when you tinker with 0:21:29.236 --> 0:21:32.836 the time limit, you get a completely different set of results. 0:21:33.796 --> 0:21:37.716 A classical chess, Magnus Carlson is number one, he's also 0:21:37.836 --> 0:21:41.636 number one a blitz because he's a genius. Hikaru right 0:21:41.676 --> 0:21:45.596 now is eleventh in the classical rankings. But it blitz, 0:21:45.956 --> 0:21:49.516 he's number two in the world. Why because he's really 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:52.956 really good at the rapid pattern recognition that's necessary for blitz, 0:21:53.156 --> 0:21:56.156 and he's not quite as good at the complex calculation 0:21:56.476 --> 0:22:00.996 that's necessary for classical. Now, who's an example, a good 0:22:01.036 --> 0:22:03.116 example of the opposite. 0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:07.836 Uh Fabiano Fabiano Karjuana is actually he's probably the best example. 0:22:07.876 --> 0:22:10.596 I can't even think of anyone else who is that 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:13.196 much better at classical chess than they are at blitz 0:22:13.236 --> 0:22:13.556 and wrap. 0:22:13.636 --> 0:22:15.476 Why do you think he's not good at blitz and rappit? 0:22:16.636 --> 0:22:21.316 I think I think with Fabiano he's it's the other way. 0:22:21.356 --> 0:22:24.876 He's very very good at calculations, so when he gets positions, 0:22:24.876 --> 0:22:28.796 he's very good at calculating and understanding what the possibilities 0:22:28.796 --> 0:22:32.756 are with with more time, whereas when he doesn't have 0:22:32.796 --> 0:22:35.676