1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Today we're dropping a bonus episode of Under Yazoo Clay. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: The response to this series has been overwhelming, so as 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: a way of saying thank you to all our listeners, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: we wanted to check back in with some of the 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: people we interviewed back in April of twenty twenty four 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: to see how the last year has treated them. One 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: of those is descendant Noah Saderstrom, the artist who told 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: his great grandfather's story in one hundred and eighty three 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: different canvasses. As it happens, Noah was the sort of 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: entry point for this whole series. Back in twenty twenty three, 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: I met up with Betsy Bradley, the director of the 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: Mississippi Museum of Art. I'd just released a podcast that 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: was about a skeleton in my own family's closet, so 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: to speak, and she wanted to know if I'd be 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: interested in talking to Noah. I was. I'd heard about 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: the Old Asylum. I knew that thousands of unmarked graves 17 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: have been discovered on its grounds and that the University 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: of Mississipi Medical Center was at a crossroads for how 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: to deal with them. In the words of the Southern 20 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: scholar mab Secrest, it had that Southern Gothic aura. I 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: was instantly fascinated. But as Noah and I started talking, 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: I realized that what grabbed me the most about his 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: story weren't the details of doctor Smith's life and this 24 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: mysterious old Asylum. It was Noah and how, one hundred 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: years after doctor Smith entered the Old Asylum, that trauma 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: continued to shape Noah and his family. As we met 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: with other descendants, I saw the same thing. Relatives they'd 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: never met and in some cases, like Wayne Lee, knew 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: almost nothing about, were still present telling them how to 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: interact with the world, how to view themselves. But I 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: also saw something else, a certain catharsis that comes with 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: finally looking straight at that big thing that everyone had 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: tried to hide. We talked to Noah in April about 34 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: what happens when, as he originally put it, the genie 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: is let out of the bottle. How the reception to 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: his exhibition last year has changed how he thinks about 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: his great grandfather, but also his own struggles with mental health. 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: Oh and in the meantime, Noah's also come across even 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: more of his great grandfather's medical records, records that show 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't just Noah trying to uncover the truth. I'm 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: Larison Campbell and this is under yazuklay. 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: You mentioned it talks about your family's contact with him. 43 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 4: So my grandmother, Margaret never spoke of him. She was 45 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 4: the oldest, and then she had two younger sisters and 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 4: the youngest brother. It's said that the youngest brother had 47 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 4: gone to him as he was being shipped off to 48 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 4: World War two and sat down with him and was 49 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: told not to come back, and that he wanted everybody 50 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 4: to consider him dead, and that he told Ethel, his wife, 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 4: that no one should come see him. That was in 52 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 4: the forties and there was no contact beyond that. 53 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 5: Yet. 54 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 4: Here's a letter from my grandmother's younger sister, Mary Jane, 55 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 4: who I loved. She died in the eighties, I think, 56 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 4: but she was a good like sitting at the table 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 4: smoking cigarettes and gossiping sort of, you know, great aunt. 58 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 4: And so she is writing here to the director of 59 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 4: social services at Whitfield in like nineteen sixty seven. Dear 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 4: mischefs she was the social services woman. 61 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: Can you help me? 62 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 4: Forty two years ago, David Lawson Smith was committed to 63 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 4: the asylum through the years when I would wonder about him, 64 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 4: my family said it would be upsetting to him and 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 4: to me to try to see him. When I'm married, 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 4: my husband said the same thing. But I've reached the 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 4: age when I must know whether or not he is 68 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 4: still alive. If he is no longer living, is it 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: possible to find out where he would be if he 70 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 4: is still living? Is there anything I could do to 71 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 4: make life more comfortable for him? I know nothing of 72 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 4: the type or degree of insanity that my father has. 73 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 4: I don't know whether it could be inherited. In fact, 74 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 4: I know nothing of my father except that he is 75 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 4: there and that my mother loved him. But I have 76 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 4: been filled with many questions for many years. I would 77 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 4: very much appreciate it if you can help me with 78 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 4: some of the answers. Sincerely, yours, Mary Jane Hornsby. 79 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: That's a wonderful letter. 80 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 3: It's heartbreak. 81 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: It's heartbreak. 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 4: It tells you so much, Yeah, tells you so much. 83 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: You know, she had no information, she didn't know why 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 4: he was there. People only said it'd be upsetting for 85 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 4: him and you if you tried to figure this out. 86 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: And so that's what I inherited. 87 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 4: So the director of Social Services wrote her immediately back, 88 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 4: and so this is in nineteen sixty seven that they 89 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 4: were writing, Dear Missus Hornsby. 90 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 3: Mister David L. 91 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: Smith was admitted to this hospital on January twenty eighth, 92 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: nineteen twenty five, and lived here until he died on 93 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 4: March seventh, nineteen sixty five, so he had died just 94 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 4: two years before that that letter was sent. His correspondent 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 4: was given as missus Minnie Jane Smith, Vicksburg, Misissippi. And 96 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: when he died we tried to contact her that was 97 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 4: his mother, and were told that she was in a 98 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 4: nursing home in New Orleans. Since we were unable to 99 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 4: contact any relative, no one was notified of his death, 100 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 4: and he was buried here at the hospital. For many 101 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 4: years he lived on Cottage five, which we called the 102 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 4: re Educational Building. He got a long fine there and 103 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 4: worked in the out print shop regularly, and according to 104 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 4: his record, did excellent work and was excellent physical condition. 105 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 4: I'm sure that one does wonder about one's parents, and 106 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 4: it is difficult to know what to do, and instances 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 4: like this, many attitudes have changed. But I think your 108 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 4: family's attitude is certainly one that is true in most 109 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 4: families at the time in which your father was here. 110 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 4: If I can be of any further help to you 111 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 4: at any time, please let me hear from you. 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: What a way to put that. It's very gentle, but 113 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: it's also saying that's how perhaps an old fashioned attitude. 114 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's how it is. It was. 115 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 4: It was very reassuring, and so we've always wondered, like 116 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: how my mother didn't know. They didn't know that he 117 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 4: had died until two years after he had died. So 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 4: it's not that they just got a letter from the 119 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 4: asylum saying that he had just died or from Whitfield 120 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: saying that he had died. They got a letter in 121 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: response to Mary Jane's and there was also another letter 122 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 4: that I can actually just paraphrase. But their younger sister, Helen, 123 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 4: also wrote to Whitfield to the medical Records office, but 124 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: her letter was completely different and said, I know that 125 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 4: my father was there, I don't have his birth or 126 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 4: his death date, and I want to join the Revolutionary 127 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 4: Dames Club or something, and they require proof of his 128 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 4: birth and death. Can you just provide that for me? 129 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 4: And that was the only time she ever reached out 130 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 4: as far as I know, grandmother never reached out, but 131 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 4: I could be wrong about that, you know, with you like. 132 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: Your own story obviously that I think resonated with a 133 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: lot of people because it really was one of the 134 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: few contemporary accounts of like mental illness and issues like 135 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: with mental health that we had in the whole show, right, 136 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: and so like, when it comes to your story and 137 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: putting that out there, have you found yourself having more 138 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: conversations about it since then? 139 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it it comes up. I wouldn't say regularly, 140 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 4: but when it comes up, it's like the door is open. 141 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 4: It's been so it's been so strange, you know, this 142 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 4: this story it started so apparently suddenly and eclipsed everything 143 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 4: for me. You know, like the year before I finished 144 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 4: this project, I had already been working on the project 145 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 4: for eight years or something, and I still didn't think 146 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 4: that it was about me in any kind of a way. 147 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 4: It didn't occur to me that my experience of mental 148 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 4: disorder could be funding this entire obsession with the mental 149 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 4: illness of my great grandfather, which seems like a very 150 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 4: dense kind of blind spot in retrospect. But you know, 151 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 4: it's amazing what the brain can do to guard ourselves 152 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: against ourselves if we feel like we have to. 153 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: I guess so. 154 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 4: At the very beginning, I was living in Glasgow in 155 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 4: like two thousand and two thousand and one. I was 156 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 4: in a marriage that was falling apart. I was broke, 157 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 4: living in literally one room a basement flat with bars 158 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 4: on the window in Glasgow, pretty depressing. And I was 159 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 4: painting for like twelve hours a day, and I thought 160 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 4: in my you know, I was in grad school and 161 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 4: I thought I was just being very focused. But when 162 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 4: life started to kind of crumble around me and I 163 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 4: was painting twelve hours a day and not taking care 164 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 4: of myself, it was a very short step from painting 165 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 4: all day to just walking around Glasgow all day, and 166 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 4: I found myself just completely lost and walking around smoking 167 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 4: cigarettes up alleys, down streets all day long. I was 168 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 4: walking down an alley in Glasgow and it was it 169 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 4: was late one night, and I remember there being an 170 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 4: open door and hearing a bunch of voices inside and 171 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 4: me just walking into this place and it turned out 172 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 4: to be like a Pentecostal congregation in there, and I 173 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 4: just went in and sat down and they were doing 174 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 4: some sort of like vocal chanting where it was just 175 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 4: like it was like their voices were just like flowing down, 176 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 4: like this waterfall of voices. And then I remember leaving 177 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 4: and going back to my flat and going to sleep, 178 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 4: and then waking up a couple hours later in the 179 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: midst of what I now know to be a depersonalization. 180 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 4: I woke up into it and it was a nightmare. 181 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: I felt like it was revealed to me the truth 182 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: was that I didn't exist, and that all of my memories, 183 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 4: even though I remembered them, they weren't grounded in any reality. 184 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 4: It was just like Wild West movie set storefronts, you know, 185 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 4: like I could keep up with conversations about things that 186 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 4: had happened, but they weren't actually connected to real life events. 187 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 4: It didn't matter that that didn't make sense. 188 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: My version of it. 189 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 4: What my brain was telling me was absolute truth, and 190 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: it was just a matter of time, in my view, 191 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 4: until other people realized it and I would be institutionalized. 192 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 4: And that was the only way through that I could 193 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 4: come up with. I didn't feel suicidal, and there was 194 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 4: no way to end it. If I had known when 195 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 4: I started to have symptoms of delusions, this sudden onset 196 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: of dissociation. Depersonalization can be like a hallmark of schizophrenia. 197 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 4: And I was exactly the right age for onset of schizophrenia. 198 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 4: I was like twenty four or twenty six or whatever. 199 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 4: And certainly if I had known that history, there would 200 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 4: have been a lot more testing done to make sure 201 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 4: that it wasn't. 202 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: That's not what we're looking at. 203 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: But my fear of institutionalization was really rate and has 204 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 4: always been, though I guess not really anymore. You know, 205 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 4: this whole process has kind of like lifted all that. 206 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 4: It was just a very bizarre, a very bizarre time. 207 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: It was a time out of time. 208 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: And it's not like it just ended, you know, it didn't. 209 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: It never ended. 210 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 4: It just that was maybe the time of the most 211 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 4: concentrated dissociative episode. I didn't know how I was supposed 212 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 4: to walk. I didn't know what my the cadence of 213 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 4: my voice was supposed to be. I heartily recognized myself 214 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: in the mirror. I mean, it was nothing. There was 215 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 4: nowhere for my thoughts to go because nothing that I 216 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 4: I thought of were trustworthy to me, and my memories 217 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 4: weren't trustworthy. It's like you wake up from a nightmare 218 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 4: and somebody's like, well, what's it about, And You're like, 219 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 4: there was this rug but and it doesn't sound frightening, 220 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: but it was just deeply terrifying. Depersonalization is a really 221 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: strange thing because there are no real outward manifestations of it. 222 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 4: I still had the person that I presented to the world, 223 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 4: but on the inside there was nothing, which is just 224 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 4: it's chilling. There was nothing at all. I kind of 225 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 4: decided that maybe it doesn't matter if my memories are real. 226 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 4: You know, what difference does it make, you know, if 227 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 4: I'm real or not. Maybe that's the case for everyone. 228 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: And I just kind of wake up the next day and, 229 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 4: you know, keep pretending that my memories are real. And 230 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 4: then I just did that four years and tried to 231 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 4: not think about it. But in trying to not think 232 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 4: about it, I also never spoke about it. I didn't 233 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 4: even think about it to myself, not because I was 234 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 4: ashamed of of it, but because I was afraid of it, 235 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: you know. And then I think about the letters that 236 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 4: the letter that Mary Jane wrote to Whitfield. Increasingly it 237 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 4: feels like all of doctor Smith's family wasn't thought they 238 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,239 Speaker 4: were ashamed he was in there, but they were afraid, 239 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 4: you know, they were afraid of what would happen if 240 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 4: they made contact with them. They were afraid for him 241 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 4: and for them, and they were afraid that they had it, 242 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 4: whatever it was. They were afraid of all of it. 243 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: And when I was I had finally kind of cleared 244 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 4: the dangerous part of the dissociative episode. The only way 245 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: I could move on in life was to pretend that 246 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: it hadn't happened, and pretend that my memories were real, 247 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 4: pretend that I had an identity, pretend that my life existed. 248 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: And so I did. That's what I did. 249 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 4: Years after that is when I was staying at my 250 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 4: folks place and they had all of our family photograph albums, 251 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 4: and that's when I started painting from the family snapshots. 252 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: Of my own childhood. 253 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 4: Now, as I'm looking and thinking and painting and looking 254 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 4: and thinking and painting the photographs from my own childhood, 255 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 4: I could feel the heat of the seat belt clicking, 256 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 4: I could feel the smell the magnolia's or whatever, like 257 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 4: it was a sensory thing. And in that way, my 258 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 4: memories started to fill back out within myself, and I 259 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 4: started to not only remember things, but but but know 260 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 4: that those memories were rooted in actual lived experience, and 261 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 4: so I painted hundreds of those and that pulled me 262 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: out of it. I mean, that was me pulling a 263 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 4: rope to get back out of that pit. 264 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 6: You know. 265 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 4: There I'm my own suffering, my experience of suffering, and 266 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: I'm painting doctor Smith's suffering and my famili's and it 267 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 4: and letting it all out, you know, instead of trying 268 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 4: to keep it all suppressed and in myself, and and 269 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 4: the find that maybe it's not really suffering, it's just 270 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 4: how you know, complex it is to be alive. I mean, 271 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 4: everybody's complicated, you know. And I wound up with a 272 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 4: lot more compassion for doctor Smith and for his doctors, 273 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 4: and for Ethel and her children and her parents and myself. 274 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: We also spoke with Kimberly Jackson. Kimberly's great grandmother, Zenny, 275 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: you'll remember, died in the asylum. And one of the 276 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: things I found so touching about her story was Zenny's 277 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: Family's commitment to making sure she wasn't forgotten, and that's continued. 278 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: In fact, just the weekend before we spoke, Kimberly was 279 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: with her cousins hearing even more about Zenny. 280 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 7: So actually, my family, part of my family got together 281 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 7: this past Saturday. One of my cousins said that she 282 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 7: was told that my great grandmother may have suffered from 283 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 7: postpartum depression. So each brother seems to have had their 284 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 7: own story, you know, so to speak about what happened. 285 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 7: She had four children, three boys and a girl. My 286 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 7: grandmother was the girl was a daughter, so she had 287 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 7: her though she had her though kind of I guess 288 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 7: the people would say late because there was six years 289 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 7: in between her and her youngest brother, so possibly possibly 290 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 7: she had postpart on and then by the time my 291 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 7: grandmother came along, you know, it just progressively got worse 292 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 7: after each pregnancy. That's what my cousin told me. And 293 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 7: it doesn't sound too far off, honestly, too far fetched either, 294 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 7: that that could have possibly happened to her. 295 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: So who all have you shared the information about Zenny? 296 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 7: Wefth everybody as far asan my family, except for those 297 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 7: two who were really closer, because those would have been heard. 298 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 7: That's what her niece and nephew were great niece and 299 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 7: nephew actually, so aside from those two, yeah, all the 300 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 7: cousins I've grew up, I've grown up with. Yeah, everybody knows. 301 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: What is the What have people's reactions been like? Sort 302 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: of the range of reactions that you've gotten. 303 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 7: So initially it was like what really, you know, you 304 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 7: found awhere, you know, because nobody knew where she was. 305 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 7: This is the mystery that was Zenia has really opened up, 306 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 7: Like we are aesthetic. We didn't know what happened to her. 307 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 7: We didn't. We had no idea where she was. You know, 308 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 7: we kind of knew, but we didn't really know. This 309 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 7: was that you and MC do you know how many 310 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 7: of us have actually had to go to UMMC for appointments. 311 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 7: I've even been there. I was a patient. There had 312 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 7: no idea. So yeah, this has been great. I mean, 313 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 7: I hate what happened to her, but I'm glad we 314 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 7: found her. 315 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: That's really incredible. I love that, And I love this 316 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 2: idea that the whole family is ecstatic because it really 317 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: like and you had talked about this before when we spoke, 318 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: but this idea that like she really was still a 319 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: huge part her presence was a part of your family. 320 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 7: Still we never forgot her. Of course, Grandma av you, 321 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 7: which is out my grandmother's stepmother played a huge role 322 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 7: in our family. She really stepped in and was a 323 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 7: true mother grandmother to my grandma, her siblings, my mother, 324 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 7: her siblings, her cousins. She really was that person. She 325 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 7: did get to meet a few great grands you know, 326 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 7: which was awesome, But she really did. But we never 327 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 7: my grandmother wouldn't let us forget whose Inny it was 328 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 7: now that her siblings never let them forget who she was. 329 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 7: We all knew who she was and what she meant 330 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 7: to them. That was just this huge question mark. 331 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: So have you any further about what you want to 332 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: do with all this new family knowledge that you have, 333 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: or what your family is going to do with this 334 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: new information about Zenny. 335 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 7: As of right now, we haven't really talked about what 336 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 7: to do with the with the information. However, I know 337 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 7: just want people to be helped and just want people 338 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 7: to know that the if something is going on with 339 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 7: your loved one, just try to persevere and get them 340 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 7: to help the best way that you can, considering that's 341 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 7: what my great grandfather did in the nineteen twenties. I 342 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 7: just don't want anybody to stop. And there are some 343 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 7: there are a lot of roadblocks in getting your people help, 344 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 7: and then sometimes you can get your people help, and 345 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 7: then they don't want to stick with the you know, 346 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 7: with the program or with the prescription or with you know, 347 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 7: it's just a lot. I just don't want people to 348 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 7: give up. Just pray and keep going and reach out 349 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 7: if there are If there are resources, reach out for 350 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 7: those resources, ask for help because more than likely somebody's 351 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 7: gonna help you if they can. But also don't don't 352 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 7: don't take care of yourself as well, because it's a journey. 353 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 7: It's important as we are taking care of our loved 354 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 7: ones that we also take care of ourselves. That's the 355 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 7: main thing I think about. My great grandfather then had 356 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 7: to come home and look after four kids with the 357 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 7: help of community because at first, you know, like I said, 358 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 7: it was he was still married to her and he 359 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 7: did not remarry until my grandmother was ten or eleven, 360 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 7: if I'm not mistaken, eleven. So you know, he raised 361 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 7: his kids with the help of family and community. And 362 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 7: that's what I hope that people have family and community 363 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 7: as they are on this journey. If not family by blood, 364 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 7: then family by mud, just community. I just hope that 365 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 7: they have someone to help, I really do. 366 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: I've never heard that expression before, but I love that. 367 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 7: Well, you know, families are not necessarily you know, your 368 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 7: blood relatives. It would be awesome, though, I guess, to 369 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 7: put it on paper so that they can be widely shared. 370 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 7: I don't know how much more could be shared than 371 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 7: what to shared now, but you know, I just don't 372 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 7: want it to be lost. And I'm going to her reunion. Actually, 373 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 7: her family reunion is going to be this summer in June, 374 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 7: and maybe I can find anybody else that has some info, 375 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 7: especially the brother who told my great grandfather when are 376 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 7: you bringing home? His family's going to be there, so 377 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 7: I'm hoping maybe they can give me some info that 378 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 7: maybe he shared with them, or maybe that was passed 379 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 7: down to them. We'll see, but anyway, I'm going. I'm 380 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 7: looking forward to it. I'm wanting to go and share 381 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 7: whatever I can with them about what happened was in there, 382 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 7: just so that they'll know and she'll just be a 383 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 7: part of you know, family lord so to speak. She 384 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 7: may already be and I just don't know it, but 385 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 7: I just want to share that that, hey, she has 386 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 7: been found. What we're going to do next, I don't know, 387 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 7: but hopefully it'll help somebody, if it has assisted anyone, 388 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 7: encouraged anyone to hey, try to find what happened to 389 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 7: your lost loved ones, relatives, because you know, some people 390 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 7: are just lost out here. You know, some people are 391 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 7: missing and they don't have a clue. If if nothing else, 392 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 7: I'm hoping that that even gives them hope that your 393 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 7: people will come home, you will find out what happened 394 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 7: to them, Get them, get get some get your peace people. 395 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 7: The helped son, daughter, uncle, brother, sister, the help that 396 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 7: they need mom and dad, the help that they need 397 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 7: with their mental health issues, just whatever. I just hope 398 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 7: someone has been encouraged. 399 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: The largest art museum in the state, the Mississippi Museum 400 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: of Art connects Mississippi to the world and the power 401 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: of art to the power of community. Located in downtown Jackson, 402 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: the museum's permanent collection is free to the public. National 403 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: and international exhibitions rotate throughout the year, allowing visitors to 404 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: experience works from around the world. The gardens at Expansive 405 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: Lawn at the Mississippi Museum of Art are home to 406 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: art installations and a variety of events for all ages. 407 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: Plan your visit today at MS Museumart dot org. That's 408 00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: MS Museum Art dot org. In the year since we 409 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: first spoke with Lida Gibson, she's moved on from working 410 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: directly with the Asylum Hill Project. She's now director of 411 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: the Museum of Medical History at UMMC. But you'd be 412 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: hard pressed to find someone who knows more about the 413 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: Asylum than Lida. And I was curious to hear where 414 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: the descendant community stands now. So I think the thing 415 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: that you know, obviously the listeners of this like really 416 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: responded to, was you know the descendants themselves. So have 417 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: you connected with more descendants since you and I since we. 418 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 5: All last spoke, Well, we have connected with more descendants 419 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 5: we have had, especially after Noah's show. It's been such 420 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 5: a great way to tell people about this project, a 421 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 5: little more about how complicated the stories are, and we're 422 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 5: hoping we're spurring more discussions about again about mental health. 423 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 5: Currently sometimes it's easier to look at these stories through 424 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 5: a historical lens instead of in our own neighborhoods. Right 425 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 5: now as we're on our way to work and so 426 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 5: what we hope to do is really, you know, just 427 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 5: get these conversations going in a more comfortable way about 428 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 5: mental health and about treatment options, you know, one hundred 429 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 5: years ago in treatment options now. So yes, it has 430 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 5: spurred a lot more conversation about it. And I do 431 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 5: run into people and they say, oh, what do you do. 432 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 5: And of course I'm director of the Museum of Medical 433 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 5: History now, but I always mentioned that I'm also still 434 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 5: involved with the Asylum Hill project, and people have heard 435 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 5: about it. Whereas you know, five years ago people might 436 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 5: have said, what are you talking about? 437 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 8: So I do think we're getting a lot more exposure. 438 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: That's really cool. 439 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 9: How many descendants total do you think total come out 440 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 9: of the Yeah, just to date since Asylum Hill got 441 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 9: up and running. 442 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 5: So, as you know, and as I may have pointed 443 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 5: out before, you know, many people who are interested in 444 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 5: genealogy are older. 445 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 8: So we have had some people who've just sort of disappeared. 446 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 5: I did see the obituary for one of our key 447 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 5: descendants a few weeks ago. So we've had people who 448 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 5: have you know, sort of dropped off the list, are 449 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 5: no longer active, and then we've had people added. But 450 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 5: if we're looking at totals, I would say two hundred 451 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 5: and twenty five probably, and our list is our active 452 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 5: list is pretty well maintained at about one hundred and 453 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 5: sixty or so. 454 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: That's incredible. That is a ton of stories. 455 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 8: Oh, it's so many stories. 456 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 5: And so the the other thing, I mean, we're almost 457 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 5: We're up to almost Jennifer and her crew are up 458 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 5: to almost seven hundred exhumations. 459 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 8: The weather this. 460 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 5: Fall and spring has been problematic. It's you know, it 461 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 5: has you. 462 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 8: Know, when it rains. It's one thing. 463 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 5: If it rains a week and then it doesn't rain 464 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 5: for another three weeks. It's another challenge when it rains 465 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 5: one day and then it dries out for two days, 466 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 5: and then it rains again the third day. It's just 467 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 5: I mean, the rain has been difficult. But despite that, 468 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 5: they have gotten a lot done. They have also found 469 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 5: some things that are helping us really narrow the time 470 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 5: frame in certain parts of the cemetery, which will be 471 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 5: very useful eventually in possibly identifying some of these remains, 472 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 5: which will be really exciting. 473 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about the things 474 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: that they found. 475 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 8: Well, it's. 476 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 5: The thing that has helped them date the bearurials more 477 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 5: than anything is the nails that have remained from the coffins. 478 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 5: And then there have been a few burials that have 479 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 5: had coins sort of stacked where a pocket might have been, 480 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 5: and so you know, in looking at those coins, we 481 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 5: had to clean them up first, and Mississippi Department of 482 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 5: Archives in History has been very gracious in helping them 483 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 5: get those cleaned up so we could see what was 484 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 5: on them. But those dates help us narrow as well. 485 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 5: So when these things sort of coincide, and that's really good. 486 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 5: There was a pair of shoes and there's a scholar 487 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 5: at Mississippi State who was able to help us narrow 488 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 5: down the time frame that those shoes would have been made. 489 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 8: Now that means they couldn't have been worn before. 490 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 5: That, but then they could have been who knows, they 491 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 5: could have been worn for you know, fifty. 492 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 8: Years after that. 493 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 5: So these little clues will eventually help us put together 494 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 5: enough information in one spot to narrow things in the 495 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 5: way that we would like to. Unfortunately, as you know, 496 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 5: because of the as you clay, different parts of the 497 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 5: cemetery have better preservation than other parts of the cemetery. 498 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 5: So the remains in certain parts, the bones, the shoes, 499 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 5: things like that are in better shape than certain parts 500 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 5: of the cemetery than others. Right now they are in 501 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 5: a spot where almost nothing is preserved. So that has 502 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 5: been just a challenge and sort of you know, discouraging 503 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 5: for the crew. But they will get finished with that 504 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 5: at some point and move to another section, and we 505 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 5: hope that there will be more that remain in the 506 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 5: burials when they move on. 507 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 8: To another spot. 508 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you think somewhere in some archives they would 509 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: have a cemetery, a planned they would have had, you know, 510 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: something like that. 511 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 5: I don't know, and I am sure they probably did, 512 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 5: but you know, the records that remain, the patient records 513 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 5: that remain are not even complete. 514 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 8: And again I keep hoping. 515 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 5: I go to estate sales, I go to flea markets 516 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 5: and one and I always look in the boxes. They're 517 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 5: just full of old papers, and I think, could this 518 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 5: possibly be something from the Old Asylum. 519 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: Have you ever had luck? 520 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: No? 521 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 8: Not yet. 522 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: Have you been able to learn anything new about the 523 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: Old Asylum since we last spoke? 524 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 8: Wow? 525 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 5: That, you know, I think I learned something new every day. 526 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 5: I certainly learned something new from Jennifer every day. Because 527 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 5: if they're not out in the field doing their archaeological work, 528 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 5: their inside cleaning the remains and cleaning any other artifacts 529 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 5: that were in the burials. 530 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 8: This is not something new that. 531 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 5: I've learned, but this is another thing that I sort 532 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 5: of took part in with doctor Mack and doctor Didlake. 533 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 5: There was a record somewhere that represented a concern among 534 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 5: the asylum staff that a patient was going to be 535 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 5: that an overweight patient was not going to be able 536 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 5: to be transported up to the cemetery in the coffins 537 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 5: that they built. And part of the issue was that 538 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 5: the coffins on the bottom didn't have. 539 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 8: A solid piece of wood. 540 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 5: It was two pieces of wood that were sort of 541 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 5: joined in the middle, and so you would think it 542 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 5: would be pretty easy for anybody really to kind of 543 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 5: fall through the bottom. So Jennifer decided to do an 544 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 5: experiment and doctor Didlake, who of course is a retired 545 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 5: surgeon and director of the Center for Bioethics and Medical 546 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 5: Humanities here, is also a very good woodworker, and so 547 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 5: he built a coffin that we believe was very similar 548 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 5: to what would have been used at the asylum, and 549 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 5: then we got bags of sand and poured them in. 550 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 5: I say we, I was not doing the heavy lifting. 551 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 5: I was just there taking pictures and so they we 552 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 5: all put the sand in and got up to two 553 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 5: hundred and fifty pounds and it did not break. Let 554 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 5: me see if there's anything else, Cole Lee. 555 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 8: I know, Oh, yes, okay, there is something else. 556 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 5: So a physician here in Mississippi who is also a 557 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 5: historian and is a medical historian in his own run. 558 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 5: It's something he does in his spare time, donated a 559 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 5: collection to us of various things he has he has 560 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 5: bought or collected over the years having to do with 561 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 5: medicine Mississippi. And one of them was an etching of 562 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 5: the Old Asylum from eighteen sixty eight, and it was 563 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 5: an image I had never seen before, and we are incredibly. 564 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 8: Grateful to have that. I mean, it's an original etching. 565 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: That's really cool. 566 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 8: It's very small. 567 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 9: Can you see anything in there that you haven't been 568 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 9: able to see any you know? 569 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 5: I think the thing that surprised me is that all 570 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 5: of the images that we have of the Old Asylum 571 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 5: show it after things were added to it, especially in 572 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 5: the front, so it had, you know, the wings on 573 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 5: both sides, and this particular eighteen sixty eight etching only 574 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 5: has two wings, which of course the wings didn't get 575 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 5: added until the first wing didn't get added until eighteen 576 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 5: seventy two, So I've never seen that image like that, 577 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 5: and it just sort of like, of course, that's logical. 578 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 5: I should have been envisioning it that way in my head, 579 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 5: but I just had. I just had always envisioned it 580 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 5: as it was when it closed down in nineteen thirty five. 581 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 8: I will mention this that might. 582 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 5: Be interesting to y'all. Wayne Wayne came and visited because 583 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 5: we got to the spot where he believed that his 584 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 5: grandfather was and I won't go any further than that, 585 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 5: but it was. 586 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 8: It was a good visit and we all left. 587 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 5: He left very satisfied, as did we about the resolution. 588 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 2: Wait what you you can't go any further line up. 589 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 8: I feel like it's Wayne's to. 590 00:37:53,600 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: Tell, So obviously we had to talk to Wayne Lee. 591 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: When we spoke to him last he already had his 592 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: grandfather's medical records. What became of his grandfather within the 593 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: walls of the asylum, it was no longer a mystery, 594 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: But there was another part of the story that needed resolution, 595 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: the location of his grandfather's grave, and Wayne A Gravedowser, 596 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: believed he'd located it. 597 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 10: About a month ago I received a message from doctor Jennifer, 598 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 10: the archaeologist, and she said that they were getting ready 599 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 10: to do the excavating were my grandfather where I had 600 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 10: placed across about five years ago, where I felt like 601 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 10: he was located. And I had told them that when 602 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 10: they got to that point to call me. 603 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 6: I would like to be there. And so I went and. 604 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 10: I was very rest with their professionalism. There were about 605 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 10: ten archaeologists working in the mud, laying on their bellies, 606 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 10: on their knees. I mean, they really go through everything 607 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 10: with like a fine toothcomb brush. I was very impressed 608 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 10: with them and very respectful to me. What had been 609 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 10: raining a lot, and so everything was muddy. You could 610 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 10: barely walk, you could barely stand up. Everything the ground 611 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 10: was uneven. 612 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 6: I'll say this. 613 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 10: The dowsing that day. I did some dowsing that day, 614 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,959 Speaker 10: but it just didn't seem right. It was very hard 615 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 10: to even stand up. And when we got to the location, 616 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 10: nothing seemed to. 617 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 6: Be quite right. I can't explain why that is. But 618 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 6: when after they spent all the time and. 619 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 10: The bodies are so decomposed, I mean all you see mostly. 620 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 6: Is a shadow of a body almost. 621 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 10: It's It's like you can see where a bone was, 622 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 10: and if you were reached in to try to pick 623 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 10: it up. 624 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 6: It would just kind of crumble, just like dirt. 625 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 10: And they found some things, but the sad part was 626 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 10: that they said that there was no DNA to be found, 627 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 10: and so they couldn't, you know, guarantee that that was him. 628 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 10: The one thing that didn't really match very well was 629 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 10: in the location. The archaeologist said she really didn't think 630 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 10: that he was in the right location that he would 631 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 10: that he would have been buried there. They they've kind 632 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 10: of found certain things that kind of clued them in 633 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 10: as to what year it might have been or what decade. 634 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 10: So nothing seemed to be quite right. Like I said, 635 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 10: I can't really explain that other than it just didn't 636 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 10: seem quite right. Afterwards, I asked the archaeologist if she 637 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,320 Speaker 10: thought that was my grandfather, what's your gut feelings. She said, 638 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 10: I don't think it is. And my gut feeling was 639 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 10: that too, and I do I do appreciate doctor Max's 640 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 10: opinion and. 641 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 6: Her gut feeling. 642 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 10: In talking to her, she said, you know the sad 643 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 10: thing about her jobs, she said, I don't work with exacts. 644 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 10: She said a lot of times, I don't have closure 645 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 10: because I can always look back and say, well, you 646 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 10: could have been this, or it could have been that. 647 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 10: But the other thing was that team was so dedicated. 648 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 10: I was really impressed with you know, they spent hours 649 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 10: out there in the mud and you know, just to 650 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 10: find almost nothing. 651 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 6: And so it's just kind of the end of that. 652 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 10: I'm okay with it because I feel like I've done 653 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 10: everything that I could do to to show respect. 654 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 6: From my grandfather and all the others that were buried there. 655 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 10: I wish that there had been better records KEP, but 656 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 10: you know, I think they are doing everything they can 657 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 10: right now to be professional and to handle things correctly. 658 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 6: I've been asked, will you go back. 659 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 10: Yes, I'm going to go back because I think it's 660 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 10: going to take another six, seven, maybe ten years to 661 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 10: complete the project, and I just want to make sure 662 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 10: that it's completed. One other thing that has happened in 663 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 10: just the last few days, you know, my cousin Billy 664 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 10: had said one of the headstones from back in the seventies, 665 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,720 Speaker 10: and after talking to Billy and talking to Elida and 666 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 10: talking to doctor Mac, he returned to headstone just a 667 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 10: couple of days ago, and so so Billy won't have 668 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 10: that at his home anymore. He'll be back at the hospital. 669 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 2: How did he feel about that? Did you talk to 670 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 2: him about it? 671 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:28,439 Speaker 6: Yeah? I thought I had to persuade him to give 672 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 6: up the headstone. 673 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 10: You know, he's carried it around since the seventies and 674 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 10: he wanted to be sure that it was not going 675 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 10: to be just dumped again, you know. So I took 676 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 10: a little persuading, but he gave it up and he 677 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:42,879 Speaker 10: felt good about it. 678 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting the way you are talking. 679 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: You know, not you were. 680 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 9: Down there a few weeks ago when they got to 681 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 9: the site where you thought your grandfather was. Now you've 682 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 9: now you're going to go back and see Timothy or 683 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 9: Reardan and his head stone's new new sort of place. 684 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 9: I mean, are you really do you have you sort 685 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 9: of become a part of this community. 686 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 10: Well, I feel like I feel like I'm almost family 687 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 10: with Lida and doctor Mack. 688 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 6: They're really good people. I'm really impressed with them. 689 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: This history has really become you know, you said it 690 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: was really your brother's mission that you took on, but 691 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: it's really become a large part of your is that 692 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: accurate to say that it's become a big part of 693 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 1: your life. 694 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 6: Yeah, it really has. 695 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 10: And not just that, with the dowsing in general. I'd 696 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 10: heard about it, but I didn't really know anything about it. 697 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 6: It was all new to me. 698 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 10: It was just so odd how it all came together 699 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 10: that right before I well, while I was, you know, 700 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 10: trying to find my grandfather, and that's when I received 701 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 10: the gifts and started using it. But you know, after 702 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:11,879 Speaker 10: they removed the cross, and after they and they said 703 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 10: they had to remove it. I mean, it was there 704 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 10: for about three or four years, but when they removed it, 705 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 10: they were cutting trees down and they had heavy equipment 706 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 10: coming in and moving dirt and stuff. So they transformed 707 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,720 Speaker 10: that whole heel, and after that, it just never seemed 708 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 10: the same. When I would go back and do some dowsing, 709 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 10: it just never seemed the same. And so I mean, 710 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 10: they guarantee me that they put that they pinpointed exactly 711 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 10: where I'd had the cross, and I believe that, but 712 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 10: it never seemed quite the same. That was just because 713 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 10: it had changed so much. They took out all the trees. 714 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 10: The equipment would take off the top two to three 715 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 10: feet of soil, and so they would have large mounds 716 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 10: of soil and they would have a stretch of land 717 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 10: there that the top two to three feet had been 718 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 10: removed and most of the people were buried I say four 719 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 10: to five feet, and so that way they only had 720 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,399 Speaker 10: to go down another foot or so before they got 721 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 10: to the remains. But the landscape had changed so much 722 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 10: you couldn't you really couldn't. 723 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 6: Just you couldn't make heads or tails of it dowsing it. 724 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 6: And I've told you guys this before. 725 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 10: I wholeheartedly believe in it. 726 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 6: It works. 727 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 10: I've done it over and over and over again where 728 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 10: I have found people in cemeteries that I didn't know 729 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 10: where they were, and so it's proven to me. 730 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 6: But if I'm not concentrating. 731 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 10: If for whatever reason, God doesn't want me to be 732 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 10: able to, if he doesn't want it to work that day, 733 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 10: then it doesn't work. And when I do doubting for people, 734 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 10: I tell him that I said, if God wants it 735 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 10: to work, then it'll work. If he doesn't, or if 736 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 10: I'm not paying attention, if I'm not focused, then it doesn't. 737 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 10: And that day it just didn't see it just didn't 738 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,240 Speaker 10: seem right. But I'm okay. I'm okay with it because 739 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 10: it probably no matter where he's buried in that field, 740 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 10: if that was him or not him. There's no DNA 741 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 10: because he's been buried for so long, and because of 742 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 10: the Yazoo clay, there was very little of anything left. 743 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,280 Speaker 2: How are you feeling about things now? 744 00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 6: Well, I feel like. 745 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 10: I feel like I've done everything I could do, but 746 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 10: I do wanna see them complete the project. And I'm 747 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 10: glad that I did what I did with placing the 748 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 10: cross there, cause I think that drew attention to the 749 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 10: project and maybe there was one more thing that might've 750 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 10: nudged them a little bit to. 751 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 6: Keep going forward with this mission. 752 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 10: That was my sole purpose for doing it, was to 753 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,799 Speaker 10: find him, but also to keep them moving forward. You know, 754 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,839 Speaker 10: I I really wanted to find my grandfather. I really 755 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 10: wanted to if I had some remains, take them back 756 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:46,399 Speaker 10: to Kentucky and have them remains placed with his wife. 757 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 6: And his children. But you know, I believe in God, 758 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 6: and I believe in heaven, and I believe that's where 759 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 6: he is. 760 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 10: So he's already with him anyway, and he's with my brother, 761 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 10: and so I guess what I was wanting to do 762 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 10: with the remains. It's not that important to me now. 763 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,319 Speaker 10: I did everything I could do, and I don't feel 764 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 10: like there's anything else I can do, and so I'm 765 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 10: just satisfied with myself and. 766 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 6: We'll just go on. 767 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: About a week after I spoke to Wayne, he texted 768 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,879 Speaker 1: me a photo of himself and his cousin Bill Lee 769 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 1: at the new site of Timothy o'rierdon's headstone, and he 770 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: had something else to share another text, which I'll read here. 771 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: We asked doctor Mac if we could do an experiment 772 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,760 Speaker 1: in the lab where all the remains are located. Billy 773 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: is also a dowser, and separately with her present, we 774 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,879 Speaker 1: asked if my grandfather was in the lab or if 775 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: he's still buried at the cemetery. Without knowing the other's conclusion, 776 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,360 Speaker 1: we got the same answers. He's not in the lab 777 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,919 Speaker 1: and is still buried in the cemetery. Doctor Max said 778 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: she'll let me know when she thinks she's in the 779 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: area where the ones that were buried after nineteen hundred are. 780 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: I don't know why things are taking this turn of events, 781 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,320 Speaker 1: but it looks like it may not be over. 782 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 2: Wayne's right of course, if. 783 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: There's one thing this asylum and its patients have taught us, 784 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,360 Speaker 1: it's that as long as someone's listening, this story's never over. 785 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: Under Yazoo Clay is executive produced by the Mississippi Museum 786 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: of Art in partnership with pod People. It's hosted by 787 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: me Laris and Campbell and written and produced by Rebecca 788 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: Shassan and myself with help from Angela Yee and Amy Machado, 789 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 1: with editing and sound design by Morgan Fous and Erica Wong, 790 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,400 Speaker 1: and thanks to Blue Dot Sessions for music. Special thanks 791 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: to Betsy Bradley at the mississipp Museum of Art, as 792 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 1: well as Leida Gibson at the Center for Bioethics and 793 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: Medical Humanities at the University of Mississippi Medical Center. Visit 794 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: Jackson and Jay and Deny Stein.