WEBVTT - The Crisis in Girls’ Sports with Lauren Fleshman and Linda Flanagan 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.996 Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glable. Here, we're back with another conversation 0:00:26.276 --> 0:00:30.676 from our Revisionist History Live series on Mastery. This took 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:33.636 place at the ninety second Street Y in New York. 0:00:34.516 --> 0:00:37.316 As many of you know, I'm a pretty serious runner, 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:41.236 and like most competitive runners, I was most running crazy 0:00:41.236 --> 0:00:44.156 when I was a kid. I started at thirteen, ran 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:47.156 through high school and a little in college. It was 0:00:47.196 --> 0:00:50.276 the single most fun thing I did growing up. Sports 0:00:50.396 --> 0:00:54.916 were my refuge from the craziness of adolescence. But one 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:57.156 of the things that has become clear in recent years 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:00.436 is that youth sports are no longer the oasis they 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:04.716 used to be. That something very troubling is happening. Higher pressure, 0:01:04.796 --> 0:01:08.756 abusive coaches, over involved parents, and it's worse for girls, 0:01:09.276 --> 0:01:14.036 eating disorders, distorted body images. So I asked two people 0:01:14.036 --> 0:01:16.356 to come and talk about all this with me and 0:01:16.476 --> 0:01:22.236 figure out some answers. Lauren Fleshman and Linda Flanagan, both athletes, 0:01:22.556 --> 0:01:26.476 coaches and parents who've thought a lot about this problem, 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:28.956 and by the way, who happened to have the same initials. 0:01:29.476 --> 0:01:32.196 So just to be clear, this is Linda. 0:01:32.796 --> 0:01:37.636 That's strangely, when many parents don't step in, they raise 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:40.356 hell when you know their child is put in right field. 0:01:40.876 --> 0:01:45.356 But if there's like just a lot of nastiness and 0:01:45.396 --> 0:01:47.996 a terrible team culture, they're quiet. 0:01:48.556 --> 0:01:51.796 Linda Flanagan, author of Take Back the Game, How money 0:01:51.796 --> 0:01:55.116 and mania are ruining kids sports and why it matters. 0:01:55.876 --> 0:01:57.796 And here is Lauren. 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:01.276 Truly like my sport experience always felt like it was mine. 0:02:02.356 --> 0:02:06.356 Lauren Fleshman, world class runner, author of Good for a Girl, 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:10.716 A Woman Running in a man's world. Linda and Lauren 0:02:10.996 --> 0:02:14.076 gave me exactly what I wanted. I won't say we 0:02:14.236 --> 0:02:17.396 fixed kid sports, but I do see a future worth 0:02:17.436 --> 0:02:17.996 believing in. 0:02:19.036 --> 0:02:19.676 Take a listen. 0:02:25.396 --> 0:02:29.036 For those of you who don't know, Laura was one 0:02:29.036 --> 0:02:33.476 of the great distance runners of her generation. She is 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:36.956 an entrepreneur and now she's a writer. Now she's written 0:02:36.956 --> 0:02:42.396 this wonderful book. Linda, also accomplished runner. Has done a 0:02:42.476 --> 0:02:44.996 number of things, interesting things over the course of your career, 0:02:45.356 --> 0:02:48.756 but of relevance to this evening, you coach for many 0:02:48.796 --> 0:02:52.836 years at the high school level, and it's really out 0:02:52.876 --> 0:02:55.836 of those experiences that you came to write your book, 0:02:55.956 --> 0:02:59.636 Take Back the Game. And I am interested in the 0:02:59.716 --> 0:03:01.596 two of you for a number of reasons. But I'm 0:03:01.596 --> 0:03:05.436 also a runner, not nearly as accomplished as either of you. 0:03:06.196 --> 0:03:09.036 In fact, I thought that we could all go for 0:03:09.316 --> 0:03:12.956 run this afternoon, and I asked, So I asked first, 0:03:12.996 --> 0:03:14.716 So I said, let's go for run, say, and so 0:03:15.236 --> 0:03:18.596 Linda says, well, I'm not running with Lauren. She's world class, 0:03:19.156 --> 0:03:21.556 so you flake. And then I said, all right, I'll 0:03:21.596 --> 0:03:24.876 go running with Lauren. And then Lauren says, no, I'm 0:03:24.916 --> 0:03:26.716 not going right, I'm gonna go for a runner early 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:29.316 in the day. And I think, what happened to Krug 0:03:29.316 --> 0:03:31.956 and found wrong? Lauren, you looked at my strata. You said, 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:37.116 he's so slow. Why would I waste a good running day? 0:03:37.716 --> 0:03:38.516 So I ran alone. 0:03:38.756 --> 0:03:41.956 So I said, you should have gone in the morning 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:42.236 with me. 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.236 So I'll get over that though. I so both of 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:53.156 you have written books about the crisis in youth sports. 0:03:54.076 --> 0:03:57.636 We said girls sports, and I think probably we should. 0:03:57.876 --> 0:04:00.876 We're going to talk probably more about girls than boys 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:02.996 in this because I think both of you would agree 0:04:03.036 --> 0:04:06.836 that problems are more acute with girls. And just to 0:04:06.876 --> 0:04:12.076 set things up, I wanted to I'm going to just describe. 0:04:11.556 --> 0:04:13.636 The manner in which this conversation is going to take place. 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:16.116 Because we want to play a little game, the Martian game, 0:04:16.356 --> 0:04:19.516 and the Martian game is that. Imagine there's a Martian 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:25.636 who doesn't know anything about America, American culture, sports in America, nothing, 0:04:25.956 --> 0:04:29.156 just a Martian in one of those balloons, and all 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:32.676 he's been given is your two books. So he reads 0:04:32.716 --> 0:04:34.996 your two books and he reaches a series of He 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:37.916 has no context, he has no inhibitions, he's not worried 0:04:37.916 --> 0:04:41.556 about asking. So I am the Martian, and I'm going 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:45.796 to ask a series of questions, unconstrained by any kind 0:04:45.836 --> 0:04:50.716 of you know, other ideological positions of mine, previous experiences. 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:54.716 I'm just drawing what might seem like extreme conclusions from 0:04:55.236 --> 0:04:57.596 both of your books, and I want you to respond 0:04:57.636 --> 0:04:58.876 to these conclusions. 0:04:59.076 --> 0:05:01.476 Okay, okay, right. 0:05:02.956 --> 0:05:07.796 The martians first statement is the Martians says, huh, should 0:05:07.876 --> 0:05:11.516 we ban men from ever coaching women? 0:05:11.556 --> 0:05:11.796 Again? 0:05:15.916 --> 0:05:21.676 It might not be a bad idea. Tell me why, Well, 0:05:23.516 --> 0:05:25.756 there are too many men coaching women. For one thing, 0:05:26.756 --> 0:05:31.556 women need women and girls need female role models in 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:35.556 leadership positions. Everyone thinks of sports as that's where you 0:05:35.636 --> 0:05:38.636 learn how to be a leader. And yet you know, 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:44.156 very few girls are actually coached by women and even 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.756 at the collegiate level it's about forty two. High school 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.716 level it's in the twenties, and in youth sports is 0:05:50.796 --> 0:05:54.596 twenty five percent. So let's get more women in there 0:05:54.676 --> 0:05:58.556 so that young girls and teenagers can see that women 0:05:58.596 --> 0:05:59.396 can be leaders too. 0:06:02.076 --> 0:06:05.196 Lauren, do you have thoughts on the Martians band? 0:06:07.476 --> 0:06:09.116 Well, I like these points. 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:13.316 I agree, and running only seventeen percent of the coaches 0:06:13.356 --> 0:06:16.596 and runninger women, which I was really surprised, even lower 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:21.676 than the average. I would say, let's not ban them 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:27.556 until we've given them a chance to fill the giant 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:30.316 gap of knowledge that we all are living with when 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:31.636 it comes to female. 0:06:31.316 --> 0:06:37.996 Bodies and how they develop and how they operate. Let's 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:39.076 let them. 0:06:39.396 --> 0:06:41.036 Let's give them a chance to learn. Let's see how 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.516 many of them want to and the ones that want 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:44.476 to and are willing. 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:44.996 To, and we'll do the work. 0:06:45.036 --> 0:06:47.316 Let's let them stay and then let's do all the 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:49.756 stuff that Flinda's talking about enlightened. 0:06:51.676 --> 0:06:54.436 I was struck in reading your book, Laurin, by a 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:57.156 big chunk of your book is It is a very 0:06:57.436 --> 0:07:03.516 powerful and insightful explanation of the difference in the physiological 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:07.596 trajectories of young women and young men, and you make this, 0:07:07.796 --> 0:07:10.356 you would talk about your time at Stanford to the 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:14.556 young man, are a man or a boar? Whatever they 0:07:14.556 --> 0:07:19.836 are between of college age is at their physical peak. 0:07:20.316 --> 0:07:24.556 They get better almost automatically every year. They're full of 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:28.756 all the every positive hormone own demand, and whereas the 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:33.276 women are going through a much more complicated process. And 0:07:33.596 --> 0:07:36.236 the reason the Martian asks that question is that Martian says, 0:07:36.556 --> 0:07:39.756 how can a man ever fully understand what. 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:43.396 A young woman is going through if he's never gone 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:44.076 through it himself. 0:07:45.156 --> 0:07:48.716 Well, I would say to the Martian, we can't apply 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.396 that logic to the problems of the world, or else 0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:54.316 the problems would only be able to be solved by 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:58.556 people who've had an identical experience. And the problems are 0:07:58.996 --> 0:08:02.876 big enough that we need everyone involved. And I don't 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:07.316 think there's anything that mysterious about the female body that 0:08:08.436 --> 0:08:10.796 anybody couldn't learn if they wanted to. 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:14.476 It's just what we've Yeah, but we've. 0:08:14.356 --> 0:08:18.196 Been added for years and years and years now. And 0:08:18.796 --> 0:08:22.276 you know, just reading that your book and that little 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:26.596 section it's not in, you know, there's we have an 0:08:26.596 --> 0:08:31.276 overwhelming we have a largely male group of coaches, and 0:08:31.356 --> 0:08:33.396 yet we still have. We have a persistence of these 0:08:33.476 --> 0:08:36.076 kinds of problems, and I'm wondering whether as the first 0:08:36.076 --> 0:08:40.956 step in solving the problem is to is to replace 0:08:42.076 --> 0:08:45.116 them with people who maybe have a better chance of understanding. 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:49.916 Yeah, well, with women coaches, you have a higher likelihood 0:08:49.916 --> 0:08:53.636 that they've gone through something similar. But you also have 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:57.316 plenty of female coaches perpetuating the same harm that their 0:08:57.316 --> 0:09:01.436 male coaches you know, passed down to them and repeat 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:05.076 the culture. And so there's there's the knowledge is needed 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:07.436 by female coaches too. I get a lot of messages 0:09:07.476 --> 0:09:10.436 of people who've read the book women men who are like, Wow, 0:09:10.476 --> 0:09:11.996 I didn't know any of this stuff. I feel really 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:14.356 bad now. I've been coaching for ten years, fifteen years. 0:09:14.556 --> 0:09:16.116 I wish I could go back and have some different 0:09:16.116 --> 0:09:19.076 conversations with my athletes than I had. There was no 0:09:19.836 --> 0:09:22.676 understanding of why the women were making the decisions they 0:09:22.676 --> 0:09:26.436 were making, why they were breaking their bodies were breaking 0:09:26.516 --> 0:09:30.836 down at higher rates than our male peers. And I mean, 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:33.356 we don't study female bodies enough. We don't have enough 0:09:33.396 --> 0:09:35.476 research on femal bodies. So I can't really like blame 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:39.076 coaches for not knowing these things. Plus we sexualize most 0:09:39.116 --> 0:09:41.796 of the things that are specifically female, you know, or 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:45.956 we make them dirty, like the menstrual cycle has this 0:09:46.156 --> 0:09:49.436 reputation for being something you can't talk about without using euphemisms. 0:09:49.516 --> 0:09:51.996 Breasts are sexualized as soon as you're twelve and a 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:53.796 half and get them, so it makes it hard to 0:09:53.796 --> 0:09:56.796 talk about our bodies and hard to talk about our 0:09:56.836 --> 0:09:59.316 bodies with ground ups, especially. 0:10:00.116 --> 0:10:03.796 Linda, what did your athlete you coach for many, many years? 0:10:04.916 --> 0:10:07.356 What did your athletes get from you as a woman 0:10:07.476 --> 0:10:09.916 that they couldn't have gotten from a man? Or is 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:11.076 that or do you think that there. 0:10:11.036 --> 0:10:11.436 Was no. 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:16.516 I don't think that they got something from me that 0:10:16.556 --> 0:10:19.236 they couldn't get from a man. In fact, there's a 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:21.036 man out here in the audience who I coached with, 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:23.836 who is a fabulous coach and role model for me, 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:31.236 who was very sensitive to the girls, you know, feelings 0:10:31.316 --> 0:10:36.756 and wishes and dreams. So I don't. The more I 0:10:36.756 --> 0:10:38.196 think about it, I have to I have to go 0:10:38.236 --> 0:10:40.636 back and tell the Martian that we should not We 0:10:40.676 --> 0:10:43.436 don't need to ban male coaches, but we should be 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:48.316 educating them along with women coaches, who, as Lauren points out, 0:10:48.476 --> 0:10:51.516 are also guilty of a lot of the nonsense that 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:53.636 we're reading about. I mean, you look at the Harvard 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.476 ice hockey coach. I mean, every week there's another story 0:10:56.516 --> 0:11:01.036 about some egregious behavior on the part of a you know, 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:05.516 professional coach, and there are oftentimes women too. 0:11:05.916 --> 0:11:12.996 Yeah, well, what about this though? The second thing. 0:11:14.676 --> 0:11:17.756 That I took from reading both of your books, was 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:22.396 particularly from Lawrence, was this notion, this idea that I 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:24.916 talked about Bray briefly before, about that you spent a 0:11:24.956 --> 0:11:27.356 lot of time on the book that the trajectory of 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:30.156 young men and women is different, and that many women 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:33.156 have this kind of in their late teens early twenties, 0:11:33.436 --> 0:11:36.556 have a kind of performance plateau, and so they observe 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:39.476 the men getting better and better efforts every year, many 0:11:39.556 --> 0:11:41.676 of them hit a period of a couple of years 0:11:41.996 --> 0:11:44.196 where their times are not getting better, in some cases 0:11:44.236 --> 0:11:47.156 are going backwards, and that triggers all kinds of. 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:51.956 What is that does? How do you deal with that issue? 0:11:52.236 --> 0:11:55.596 I mean, is it is it? Is there a case 0:11:55.596 --> 0:12:00.636 to be made for some somehow separating out the cultures 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:02.556 of male and female running it out with that age? 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:03.676 So there isn't this. 0:12:03.636 --> 0:12:06.396 Kind of of the women looking at the men and 0:12:06.436 --> 0:12:07.836 thinking they should be doing the same. 0:12:08.396 --> 0:12:10.916 I think that it's fine to have different experiences. You 0:12:10.996 --> 0:12:14.156 just need the different experiences normalized from day one. Like 0:12:14.196 --> 0:12:17.356 when the coaches are having their conversations with parents and students, 0:12:17.716 --> 0:12:20.036 that's the time to lay out, hey, we have a 0:12:20.036 --> 0:12:22.876 cross country team or track team or basketball team, and 0:12:22.916 --> 0:12:25.756 we are working with thirteen to eighteen year olds, for example, 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:29.116 and female bodies are going to be going through something 0:12:29.156 --> 0:12:30.876 that looks more like this, which is like, if you 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:32.796 just look at all the data on performance, really doesn't 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:36.276 matter what the sport is. By age sixteen seventeen, female 0:12:36.556 --> 0:12:39.636 gains performance gains on average or like one to one 0:12:39.636 --> 0:12:40.716 and a half percent. 0:12:40.836 --> 0:12:43.876 Whereas their male counterparts are they go like this, do 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:45.796 do do do do? And the female athletes go like 0:12:45.956 --> 0:12:46.956 EWW like this. 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:50.516 But we haven't been telling them during that stage of 0:12:50.596 --> 0:12:53.436 life that hey, this is temporary. This is like a 0:12:53.436 --> 0:12:56.676 blip in your long term progression, and your prime is 0:12:56.716 --> 0:12:58.436 in your mid to late twenties and beyond. 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:00.076 So really we just need. 0:12:59.916 --> 0:13:04.636 To Every coach of an adolescent female person should should 0:13:04.636 --> 0:13:06.276 be telling them, hey, this is going to be part 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:08.596 of your normal progression. More than likely you're going to 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:10.756 have a plateau or even a short term dip. I 0:13:10.796 --> 0:13:14.796 will be coaching you through that experience as teammates. You're 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:17.516 going to be navigating this with your teammates. Some of 0:13:17.556 --> 0:13:19.036 you will be on this part of the curve, some 0:13:19.076 --> 0:13:20.916 will you be on this, will be on this. So 0:13:21.036 --> 0:13:24.036 part of team culture needs to be supporting each other 0:13:24.116 --> 0:13:27.236 through that rocky road from day one and not looking 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:28.076 at it as a bad thing. 0:13:28.116 --> 0:13:29.276 It's just a different path. 0:13:29.316 --> 0:13:32.556 Like, is there going to be feelings of disappointment, sure, 0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:34.596 you know, and we can make space for that without 0:13:34.916 --> 0:13:37.396 pathologizing it. And that's what we've been doing, is because 0:13:37.396 --> 0:13:41.196 we don't recognize that females have this performance wave instead 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.636 of this performance line when they hit the plateau. 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:46.756 I mean there's parents who have been like. 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:49.196 I sent my kid to a sports psychologist because I 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:51.596 thought they just didn't care enough anymore, or I sent 0:13:51.636 --> 0:13:53.716 them to a dietician because I thought that they were 0:13:54.276 --> 0:13:58.036 their nutrition was sloppy. I'm like, that's just puberty. You 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:02.756 just pathologized puberty, you know, Yeah. 0:14:02.756 --> 0:14:05.316 But see the trouble. I totally agree with you, And 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:10.396 yet I think that implies that you coaches have room 0:14:10.596 --> 0:14:14.516 for the time and that athletes are patient and that 0:14:14.556 --> 0:14:17.996 their parents are patient, and at least in my experience 0:14:18.076 --> 0:14:21.396 with high school parents, of course, many were wonderful. I 0:14:21.436 --> 0:14:23.516 love them. I always have to say that you said it, 0:14:23.556 --> 0:14:29.596 good job. But there's this this drive to achieve and 0:14:29.636 --> 0:14:32.796 to get results right away, you know, there's not and 0:14:32.876 --> 0:14:37.476 if they're plateauing or getting worse than again, like what's 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:40.676 the problem here? And so it is about coaching education, it. 0:14:40.676 --> 0:14:43.196 Is, and it's also there's some things we can't change. 0:14:43.356 --> 0:14:45.276 I mean, sport as we know it was built around 0:14:45.316 --> 0:14:48.156 the male body, so high school sports. We invest a 0:14:48.156 --> 0:14:50.076 ton of money in high school sports and college sports, 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:53.316 and that's ages thirteen to twenty two. That's a great 0:14:53.436 --> 0:14:56.676 time to be a male in sport, right, And that's 0:14:56.716 --> 0:15:00.676 why they're I'm guessing, so integrated into our education systems. 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:04.236 It's like a and why scholarships are given out based on. 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:06.356 Who's the best seventeen or eighteen year old. 0:15:06.876 --> 0:15:09.716 That's a better predictor for a male body person than 0:15:09.716 --> 0:15:12.196 a female body person of what your future potential is. 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:16.156 But the scholarships and that whole system was created long 0:15:16.196 --> 0:15:20.756 before female athletes were like up in there asking. 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:22.116 For their share of the scholarship pie. 0:15:22.516 --> 0:15:24.876 But now there's no getting around the fact that seventeen 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:26.956 and eighteen year olds are the ones getting offered the 0:15:26.996 --> 0:15:29.996 scholarships or not. And so that adds this enormous pressure 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:34.876 right during development, right during your puberty experiences of change, 0:15:35.196 --> 0:15:37.636 where you're like, Okay, you're telling me to accept this 0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:42.916 temporary state of plateau. But there's a lot on the line, 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:47.956 hundreds of thousands of dollars of scholarship and opportunity. And 0:15:48.116 --> 0:15:51.756 if I just restrict my diet, if I fight puberty, 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:55.796 if I try to aim for this body that I've 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:58.676 been told is the ideal performance body, now, then I 0:15:58.676 --> 0:16:02.116 can give myself a chance to have those opportunities. 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:03.436 But then you pay the price later. 0:16:04.316 --> 0:16:07.796 Well, this brings us to the Martian's second point, which 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:11.436 is one that Linda raises explicitly in her book, which 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.076 when I came to that part of Europe, I was like, Amen, 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:18.596 I'm with you on this as both as Malcolm and 0:16:18.676 --> 0:16:24.436 as the Martian. That is it time to pull the 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:30.796 plug on athletic scholarships and preferences. You know, if you're Lord, 0:16:30.876 --> 0:16:35.676 you're describing this kind of the level of pressure that 0:16:36.436 --> 0:16:39.396 is brought to bear on the seventeen year old girl 0:16:39.516 --> 0:16:42.996 at a time in her development when you can't make, 0:16:44.276 --> 0:16:47.196 you know, a kind of reasonable prediction about where. So 0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:50.596 this whole we have this whole system in place that's 0:16:50.636 --> 0:16:53.876 being driven by the enormous cost of college education, by 0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:56.356 the expectations that come with scholarships. What if we just 0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:57.636 ended them. 0:16:57.996 --> 0:17:00.596 I'm all for it, And of course, you know, many 0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:03.276 of the kids going through it now would be like, 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:05.996 but wait, that's not fair. I'm you know, that's just 0:17:05.996 --> 0:17:10.076 what we've been counting on. But you know it would 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:14.116 just if there were no admissions advantage and no athletic 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:19.796 scholarship of any kind available to college kids, then it 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:24.396 would it would completely change the way we provide sports 0:17:24.396 --> 0:17:28.156 to kids now because there wouldn't be this race, pardon 0:17:28.236 --> 0:17:32.516 the pun, you know, to achieve by thirteen, because you 0:17:32.596 --> 0:17:37.596 might all disappear. And also, you know, I love sports 0:17:37.636 --> 0:17:41.596 and I'm a runner, and I think they're wonderful. But 0:17:42.156 --> 0:17:45.676 it's not clear to me why a high school athlete 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:50.156 should get get an advantage over someone who plays the 0:17:50.196 --> 0:17:52.756 obo or who's an a choir, Like, why aren't there 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:57.316 special dispensations for them? They don't aren't entitled to special 0:17:57.396 --> 0:18:02.716 scholarships or admissions advantages or streamline admissions process. So I 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:04.556 think it's it would be more fair. I think it 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:07.756 would also be impossible to claud back, or at least 0:18:07.876 --> 0:18:08.516 very difficult. 0:18:09.116 --> 0:18:11.556 I love that part of your book though, because I've 0:18:11.596 --> 0:18:13.876 often thought, man, if we could just get rid of 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:18.996 the scholarships, it would release so much pressure on athletes, 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:20.076 especially girls. 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:22.436 I think that the pressures would just go way down. 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:25.476 We'd be way more likely to allow development and change 0:18:25.476 --> 0:18:28.676 to happen on its timeline. But reading your book, I 0:18:28.716 --> 0:18:30.276 was like, oh my gosh, there's this whole other side 0:18:30.316 --> 0:18:32.516 of it, the whole big business of youth sports that's 0:18:32.556 --> 0:18:36.356 also driven entirely towards that same aim. And as someone 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:37.636 who has a nine year old and a five year 0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:39.556 old and i'd like them to participate in sports, I 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:41.316 don't want to be a part of that mania. 0:18:41.356 --> 0:18:42.036 I don't want to be. 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:46.116 Having to travel for hours every weekend to give my 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:50.676 kids this the top top performance opportunity. I want the 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:53.676 kind of sports that you describe in your book as 0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:55.836 an ideal, and so I am for getting rid of 0:18:55.876 --> 0:18:59.756 athletic scholarships. But what had prevented me in the past, 0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:02.516 was what would we replace it with? And in your 0:19:02.516 --> 0:19:05.636 book you also provide some really great ideas like that 0:19:05.676 --> 0:19:08.036 there are other models, and I think sometimes we like 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:11.476 lack of imaginations helpful to see other ways people are 0:19:11.516 --> 0:19:14.236 doing it. And I can't remember the one that you described, 0:19:14.236 --> 0:19:15.116 and you could talk about it. 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:18.596 I mean, what that would be. No, Well, certainly in 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:21.036 Europe they don't do youth sports like we do it 0:19:21.076 --> 0:19:25.036 at all, so you know, there's no school based sports, 0:19:25.076 --> 0:19:29.596 it's the after school. It's community based sports. So that 0:19:29.716 --> 0:19:32.916 also sets up the whole the college level. And when 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:37.356 when I was running in England, you know there was 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:39.996 there were no teams. It was there were teams, but 0:19:40.076 --> 0:19:43.156 it was completely alien to the way we do it here, 0:19:43.316 --> 0:19:45.996 and there was no coach. It was like student led, right, 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:49.476 totally student led. It was probably comparable to intramurals here, 0:19:49.956 --> 0:19:53.916 and it was very serious and organic, and I don't 0:19:53.916 --> 0:19:57.676 see why that's not you know, replicable here. And I 0:19:57.676 --> 0:20:03.436 think at the college level. You know, another possible suggestion 0:20:03.556 --> 0:20:05.356 I had, which will never happen, is well, how about 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:11.716 if we just abolished college sports as if? But but I 0:20:11.756 --> 0:20:14.876 say that, but why not club and intramural. I mean, 0:20:14.916 --> 0:20:16.836 it's not saying kids can't. 0:20:16.876 --> 0:20:17.596 Why not about it? 0:20:17.636 --> 0:20:21.676 You're talking about intercollegiate sports. 0:20:21.156 --> 0:20:25.636 Like, yeah, well, what's ironic about this is in research 0:20:25.676 --> 0:20:29.876 for my book, what women had in sports was club 0:20:29.876 --> 0:20:35.396 and intermural before Title nine. But there was a huge discrepancy. 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:38.276 Obviously there was no scholarships for us, but there were for. 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:39.556 Men in the n C Double A. 0:20:39.676 --> 0:20:43.876 There was more media, all these things that come with 0:20:44.596 --> 0:20:48.276 that infrastructure from men's sports. We wanted it too, when 0:20:48.596 --> 0:20:51.956 maybe all along we wanted equality, but maybe they should 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:53.596 have followed our lead. 0:20:55.716 --> 0:20:56.876 Maybe we were onto something. 0:20:57.036 --> 0:20:59.356 Well, when Title nine happened, there was a discussion for 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:01.916 the first couple of years about will we fold into 0:21:01.916 --> 0:21:04.076 the existing men's programs or will we run our own 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:07.636 show here, Like we've guaranteed we have that the schools 0:21:07.716 --> 0:21:10.356 need to provide the opportunities, don't necessarily have to run 0:21:10.356 --> 0:21:12.436 it exactly like the NC DOBLEA, And it took a 0:21:12.436 --> 0:21:15.076 little bit before the decision was made to join. 0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:17.996 The NC Double A. And like essentially one of the 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:21.556 arguments in my book is that we should be recreating. 0:21:20.956 --> 0:21:24.596 Sports with female bodies at the center so that they 0:21:24.596 --> 0:21:26.916 can have an equal chance to thrive in the sports system, 0:21:27.076 --> 0:21:29.356 and that we kind of need to take it back 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:32.156 and be able to do that, because giving people the 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:34.556 same thing the exact same way isn't going. 0:21:34.436 --> 0:21:38.996 To get you the same results, right. 0:21:38.596 --> 0:21:40.956 So how can we level the proverbial playing field and 0:21:41.036 --> 0:21:55.956 youth sports that's after the break. I mean, one of 0:21:55.956 --> 0:22:00.676 the things that's along these lines that I've often wondered 0:22:00.676 --> 0:22:04.236 about it is whether there's an inherent contradiction between designing 0:22:04.276 --> 0:22:10.276 sports programs for the for the fiftile and designing them 0:22:10.276 --> 0:22:13.596 for the ninety fifth percentile, and that maybe those two 0:22:13.596 --> 0:22:17.396 things are in some sense incompatible. So if we do 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:24.556 away with high pressure intercollegiate sports and scholarships and things, 0:22:25.276 --> 0:22:28.756 maybe we produce fewer Maybe we don't, but maybe this 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:32.196 chance we produce fewer world class runners she's running as 0:22:32.236 --> 0:22:35.916 an example, But maybe we also produce way more people 0:22:35.916 --> 0:22:38.356 who are happy and contented and run their whole lives, 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:42.956 and maybe we get fewer you know, two twenty five 0:22:42.996 --> 0:22:47.356 marathoners and more two fifty marathoners. I mean, I would 0:22:47.356 --> 0:22:49.836 be happy with that, but you know, a lot there 0:22:49.836 --> 0:22:52.716 are some people in the kind of elite sports community 0:22:52.716 --> 0:22:54.116 who consider that a tragedy. 0:22:54.796 --> 0:22:58.396 Well, so few kids, not enough kids participating in sports now, 0:22:58.436 --> 0:23:00.836 and I think if we can move the model to 0:23:00.956 --> 0:23:04.356 try to get more participation. I mean, there was just 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:07.276 an article on the paper yesterday about the income gap 0:23:07.356 --> 0:23:12.676 between the wealthy, wealthy families, you know, earning over one 0:23:12.716 --> 0:23:15.876 hundred thousand dollars, seventy percent of those kids play sports, 0:23:16.596 --> 0:23:19.916 and in families earning twenty five thousand dollars in less 0:23:20.116 --> 0:23:22.796 thirty one percent play sports. So I think this is 0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:27.796 part of the same conversation that the way we have 0:23:28.676 --> 0:23:32.996 developed the youth sports system, with its high cost and 0:23:34.756 --> 0:23:40.396 just relentlessness, has pushed more kids out so that there 0:23:40.436 --> 0:23:43.436 are fewer kids, you know, gaining any advantages. 0:23:44.156 --> 0:23:46.716 Cross country is one of the ones that I think 0:23:46.756 --> 0:23:51.556 has the least access problems, considering that they generally don't 0:23:51.556 --> 0:23:54.876 have cuts, and you don't have to have been in 0:23:54.916 --> 0:23:58.396 the youth sports high performance pipeline to join a team, 0:23:59.116 --> 0:24:01.516 and often you benefit if you haven't. I mean, I 0:24:01.556 --> 0:24:04.356 certainly like when I started as a ninth grader running, 0:24:04.396 --> 0:24:05.916 there had been plenty of people in my town had 0:24:05.956 --> 0:24:07.196 been running a long time. 0:24:07.276 --> 0:24:08.796 And you were not at a disadvantage. 0:24:08.796 --> 0:24:10.636 I was not at all at a disadvantage of anything. 0:24:10.636 --> 0:24:12.116 I felt like I was at an advantage. 0:24:12.156 --> 0:24:14.876 That's how it was framed to me, because you were fresh, yeah, 0:24:14.876 --> 0:24:16.796 and you have plenty of years ahead. It's just like 0:24:16.876 --> 0:24:19.756 making you know, like recognizing this timeline. But with my 0:24:19.836 --> 0:24:23.276 kid interested in soccer, I think I spent five hundred 0:24:23.316 --> 0:24:25.476 dollars for a spring soccer. 0:24:25.716 --> 0:24:27.196 Experience for the kid. 0:24:27.676 --> 0:24:30.276 He's not even leaving town, you know, so I don't 0:24:30.316 --> 0:24:31.276 really understand. 0:24:33.036 --> 0:24:34.116 He's had one practice. 0:24:34.156 --> 0:24:37.396 He's nine, Like, I don't understand how anyone how people 0:24:37.396 --> 0:24:40.036 are affording this and continuing to do this. 0:24:40.076 --> 0:24:42.076 Well, if I can just point out that in my town, 0:24:42.236 --> 0:24:46.076 we have a Junior pre Academy for U fours, which 0:24:46.116 --> 0:24:51.676 is three year olds. What well, it's a junior pre 0:24:51.716 --> 0:24:55.676 academy because then there's also the pre Academy, which is 0:24:55.716 --> 0:24:55.956 for you. 0:24:56.076 --> 0:24:57.676 Five like pre k. 0:24:58.236 --> 0:25:00.396 Yes, But so by the time, you know, there's a 0:25:00.716 --> 0:25:04.196 junior peer academy, pre academy, then there's academy and futures, 0:25:04.236 --> 0:25:06.436 and then there's travel by the like they've been playing 0:25:06.476 --> 0:25:08.396 for six years and they're nine years old, you know, 0:25:09.236 --> 0:25:12.036 and at each one it's you know, five hundred dollars 0:25:12.156 --> 0:25:14.116 or more, which isn't you know what the problem we 0:25:14.116 --> 0:25:16.716 were talking about with the money and I don't know 0:25:16.756 --> 0:25:17.356 how you do that? 0:25:18.036 --> 0:25:21.836 No, the way, So, the biggest obstacle, and you mentioned this, Linda, 0:25:22.076 --> 0:25:24.436 and I would like you to be more blunt about 0:25:24.476 --> 0:25:27.916 this because you're being two. The biggest obstacle to the 0:25:28.036 --> 0:25:31.676 kind of de escalation of youth. 0:25:31.516 --> 0:25:33.196 Sports is the parents. 0:25:33.596 --> 0:25:38.276 Oh yeah, so, and I'm reminded, you know, anyone who 0:25:38.356 --> 0:25:42.356 has to deal with parent My brother was a elementary 0:25:42.356 --> 0:25:44.836 school principal. He's now retired, so I can now say 0:25:44.836 --> 0:25:47.716 this about him. And he loved his job and loved 0:25:47.716 --> 0:25:51.516 the kids. It's just the parents that were and he, 0:25:52.516 --> 0:25:56.596 you know, fifty percent I think of his anxiety and 0:25:56.876 --> 0:25:58.916 came from parents, not from kids. 0:25:59.236 --> 0:26:00.876 He was prepared for the kids. He wasn't prepared. 0:26:01.236 --> 0:26:05.076 And he also had this is very tangential, had this 0:26:05.196 --> 0:26:08.396 hilarious riff about how the parent the teachers that the 0:26:08.476 --> 0:26:11.036 parents think the best teachers are always the worst teachers. 0:26:11.756 --> 0:26:13.836 So he was like, not only are they paying the ass, 0:26:14.036 --> 0:26:16.796 they don't know who the good teachers are. It's like 0:26:16.836 --> 0:26:19.596 there's something so but I want to so Martian says, 0:26:19.916 --> 0:26:24.196 why don't we ban parents from Jati, Well, you can 0:26:24.316 --> 0:26:25.156 we give them one. 0:26:26.076 --> 0:26:27.996 They can go to one media or one of them. 0:26:28.356 --> 0:26:29.996 That's it. They got to kick one and then they're done. 0:26:30.396 --> 0:26:32.676 Okay, Well here's a good model. Is actually the way 0:26:32.716 --> 0:26:37.236 boarding schools do is because they parents don't go to 0:26:37.316 --> 0:26:41.836 those because in those sports programs, from what I understand, 0:26:42.356 --> 0:26:44.956 do pretty well and the kids it's pretty healthy between 0:26:45.196 --> 0:26:48.156 with the coaches and the players because the parents aren't, 0:26:48.556 --> 0:26:52.796 you know, standing at the chain link fence observing. But 0:26:53.756 --> 0:26:57.116 you know, in the absence of that, I think definitely 0:26:57.156 --> 0:27:00.156 restricting the parents is a good idea. And again I 0:27:00.196 --> 0:27:01.836 would like to say I had a lot of wonderful 0:27:01.876 --> 0:27:05.556 parents my mom, but they're handful or not great. 0:27:06.076 --> 0:27:07.956 Well, the stuff that you were talking about in your 0:27:07.956 --> 0:27:13.436 book about how as parents we get sucked into our 0:27:13.516 --> 0:27:18.476 achievement as parents is shown in our kids' accomplishments, and 0:27:18.516 --> 0:27:23.116 that that's a relatively new phenomenon generationally and my parents. 0:27:23.156 --> 0:27:25.636 My high school coach just retired after thirty years, and 0:27:25.836 --> 0:27:28.196 at his retirement party, he again he told me this 0:27:28.316 --> 0:27:28.716 all the time. 0:27:28.716 --> 0:27:29.876 He's like, your parents were. 0:27:29.716 --> 0:27:33.396 My favorite parents of all the parents in the thirty years, 0:27:33.796 --> 0:27:36.796 because they showed up to the first meeting. They came 0:27:36.876 --> 0:27:42.036 to like three to five events perfect. They never once screamed, 0:27:42.756 --> 0:27:45.956 you know, and they never told him how to do 0:27:45.996 --> 0:27:48.756 his job. They showed up enough, like you say in 0:27:48.796 --> 0:27:51.076 your book, to get to know the person who's spending 0:27:51.276 --> 0:27:54.116 crazy amounts of time with your kid. That's important. Get 0:27:54.156 --> 0:27:55.636 to know them a little bit, and then get out 0:27:55.636 --> 0:27:59.596 of the way. And truly, like my sport experience always 0:27:59.596 --> 0:28:03.436 felt like it was mine and that agency, that autonomy 0:28:04.276 --> 0:28:06.196 kind of leaved me to the sport in a way 0:28:06.236 --> 0:28:08.436 that I think got me through the ups and downs 0:28:08.436 --> 0:28:11.996 a lot better. And like they, I don't know, I 0:28:12.076 --> 0:28:15.116 just I'm like, I was so grateful for my parental experience, 0:28:15.516 --> 0:28:19.276 and then wanting to your book was very affirming and like, oh, okay, 0:28:19.276 --> 0:28:20.236 they were actually. 0:28:20.076 --> 0:28:22.596 Doing a good job. So well, I mean, I try 0:28:22.636 --> 0:28:22.916 to do it. 0:28:22.916 --> 0:28:24.596 Like how you turned out as a runner. I mean, 0:28:24.836 --> 0:28:28.116 you're the fantastic runner, and obviously you know they were 0:28:28.196 --> 0:28:30.396 doing something right by just stepping back. 0:28:31.156 --> 0:28:34.916 My dad came to in my entire running curtain high 0:28:34.956 --> 0:28:41.996 school one event, and he immediately volunteered to help with 0:28:42.036 --> 0:28:45.476 the long jump, so he was raking the hit and 0:28:45.556 --> 0:28:48.396 as I was, I will say a modesty that I won. 0:28:48.516 --> 0:28:51.116 This was the Terror Championships I won that day. And 0:28:51.156 --> 0:28:54.156 as I'm rounding the final bend on my way to victory, 0:28:54.596 --> 0:28:56.756 I look into the infield and I see my dad. 0:28:57.116 --> 0:28:59.956 He's raking and then he raises the rake and he 0:28:59.956 --> 0:29:03.836 goes go. Malcolm rakes the dad. That was the extent 0:29:03.876 --> 0:29:05.156 of his involvement and I love that. 0:29:05.956 --> 0:29:10.036 But to your point, the thing about them being involved 0:29:10.156 --> 0:29:13.796 is that it allows you to also frame your successes 0:29:13.836 --> 0:29:16.436 and failures the way you want to frame them, because 0:29:16.436 --> 0:29:18.196 the parental frame is very different. 0:29:18.996 --> 0:29:21.396 They're much more they're they're far. 0:29:21.276 --> 0:29:24.196 More sensitive, I think in some ways to set backs 0:29:24.236 --> 0:29:27.076 to they don't understand the context in which you're operating, 0:29:27.116 --> 0:29:31.876 the social network that that you're you're competing in. 0:29:32.396 --> 0:29:35.316 You know what has really struck me and both as 0:29:35.356 --> 0:29:36.916 a coach and since when I've talked to a lot 0:29:36.916 --> 0:29:40.316 of parents is just how anxious they are. It's all 0:29:40.316 --> 0:29:43.396 this anxiety about how their kids are going to turn out, 0:29:43.796 --> 0:29:46.316 which I get, you know, that's what happens when you're 0:29:46.356 --> 0:29:51.756 a parent, but somehow it's it's played out in sports. 0:29:51.996 --> 0:29:54.436 It's also played out in school. But because sports are 0:29:54.476 --> 0:29:59.076 so visible, I think you know, your your value as 0:29:59.116 --> 0:30:02.956 a parent is so easily measured by how well your 0:30:03.036 --> 0:30:06.396 child does. And you know, I just I've been over 0:30:06.636 --> 0:30:11.036 overwhelmingly impressed by how anxious parents are about it. And 0:30:11.036 --> 0:30:14.516 that's why they're freaking out and you know, complaining and 0:30:14.556 --> 0:30:18.836 shrieking and you know, trying to get you fired because 0:30:19.676 --> 0:30:22.476 you know you're not doing enough for your child to 0:30:22.516 --> 0:30:24.436 get that child to the next level. 0:30:24.516 --> 0:30:29.716 Did that did dealing with parents? How much of an 0:30:29.716 --> 0:30:35.316 obstacle is that for people? For coaches continuing to coach, 0:30:35.876 --> 0:30:40.916 deciding to enter coaching, is that constraining our supply? 0:30:41.076 --> 0:30:43.236 Well, I have an important stat here to share as 0:30:43.276 --> 0:30:47.316 we were discussing this is accurate too. Fifty eight percent 0:30:47.396 --> 0:30:50.636 of coaches the per surveyed about five years ago, and 0:30:50.636 --> 0:30:52.956 I'm sure it's gotten worse, said they've thought about quitting 0:30:53.036 --> 0:30:58.316 because of parents. Two thirds of coaches set in a 0:30:58.356 --> 0:31:01.076 more recent survey said parents are always criticizing their child, 0:31:01.156 --> 0:31:06.276 they're criticizing their officials. I mean, coaches are really down 0:31:06.316 --> 0:31:10.476 on parents right now. And it's well, it's interestingly enough 0:31:10.516 --> 0:31:13.716 in this Aspen Institute survey that the parents are like, 0:31:13.796 --> 0:31:16.676 we love our coaches, So there's kind of this weird 0:31:17.316 --> 0:31:21.836 disconnect there. But coaches are really down on parents. 0:31:21.636 --> 0:31:21.716 And. 0:31:23.276 --> 0:31:27.356 This is unfair, and I think I so many parents 0:31:27.516 --> 0:31:31.676 are trying to do the right thing and don't want 0:31:31.676 --> 0:31:33.436 to be that parent. I've heard that so many times. 0:31:33.476 --> 0:31:39.316 I don't want to be that parent. But can you 0:31:39.356 --> 0:31:43.996 do more? Mile repeats, you know, But I would like 0:31:43.996 --> 0:31:46.076 to say though, that there is a time when they 0:31:46.116 --> 0:31:51.476 should interject, when they should be you know, not complaining, 0:31:51.596 --> 0:31:53.876 but raising talking to the coach or talking to the 0:31:53.916 --> 0:31:57.316 athletic director. And that's when there's some funny business going on. 0:31:58.036 --> 0:32:01.556 And you know, more the kids, the higher the level 0:32:01.596 --> 0:32:04.156 of athlete the child is, the more elite, the more 0:32:04.236 --> 0:32:07.276 likely they are to be emotionally abused and physically abused. 0:32:07.716 --> 0:32:12.116 And I think that's strangely when many parents don't step in. 0:32:12.716 --> 0:32:15.196 They raise hell when you know their child is put 0:32:15.236 --> 0:32:19.236 in right field. But if there's like just a lot 0:32:19.276 --> 0:32:23.916 of nastiness and a terrible team culture, they're quiet as 0:32:23.996 --> 0:32:25.756 long as the team is doing well. 0:32:26.796 --> 0:32:30.196 And that's it's intimidating, I imagine, you know, because you're 0:32:30.276 --> 0:32:32.756 like dealing with an expert, you would we tend to 0:32:32.836 --> 0:32:37.356 assume that they they have a method that's vetted, or 0:32:37.356 --> 0:32:39.316 they wouldn't have gotten to where they are well. 0:32:39.316 --> 0:32:43.156 And if they're successful in particular, yes, But meanwhile, there's 0:32:43.196 --> 0:32:46.676 a lot of tolerance of the terrible things that we 0:32:46.676 --> 0:32:49.596 shouldn't be tolerating just because the coach has a great reputation. 0:32:49.836 --> 0:32:51.996 Yeah, yeah, that's true. 0:32:52.116 --> 0:32:56.876 No, you talk quite movingly and honestly about your own 0:32:56.876 --> 0:32:59.076 father in your book, some of the best parts of 0:32:59.076 --> 0:33:02.756 the book. And in the beginning of the book, I thought, 0:33:04.396 --> 0:33:07.356 I thought your father, your father came across as a 0:33:07.476 --> 0:33:12.076 much less sympathetic figure than he does by the And 0:33:11.956 --> 0:33:14.716 and I'm wondering, how do you judge you're the elite 0:33:14.796 --> 0:33:18.196 runner here, how do you judge your own parents? Do 0:33:18.236 --> 0:33:20.836 you think your father's. 0:33:22.596 --> 0:33:23.996 Role in your life. 0:33:23.916 --> 0:33:26.036 Helped you as a runner, was neutral or hurts she 0:33:26.036 --> 0:33:26.596 as a runner? 0:33:27.516 --> 0:33:29.916 I think that overall he was a really positive force. 0:33:30.516 --> 0:33:32.476 He was an alcoholic for people who haven't read the book, 0:33:32.556 --> 0:33:35.156 and he worked really long hours as a prop maker, 0:33:35.716 --> 0:33:38.116 and when he got home there was about a ninety 0:33:38.156 --> 0:33:42.556 minute window where I could catch him sober before he 0:33:42.596 --> 0:33:44.676 would have too many drinks, where I didn't know what 0:33:44.836 --> 0:33:47.316 kind of dat I was going to get. And so 0:33:47.636 --> 0:33:51.756 I developed this habit of trying to really get his 0:33:51.836 --> 0:33:55.356 attention through excellence during those ninety minutes, because he really 0:33:55.356 --> 0:33:59.836 loved excellence, excellence in everything, music, sports, you know, culture, 0:33:59.876 --> 0:34:02.196 Like he just it lit him up to see people 0:34:02.276 --> 0:34:06.236 at their peak doing something incredible. So I wanted to 0:34:06.556 --> 0:34:08.836 have his light on me in that way. So from 0:34:08.836 --> 0:34:11.356 that respect, I can't even really blame him for that. 0:34:11.356 --> 0:34:14.076 That's just one of those childhood things where a dynamic emerges. 0:34:14.476 --> 0:34:17.996 The alcoholism was not ideal. Definitely would have preferred that 0:34:18.076 --> 0:34:22.516 not to be there, but then gosh, throughout my career 0:34:22.596 --> 0:34:26.636 he was, so he just had It was a constant positive, 0:34:27.756 --> 0:34:30.276 like I always knew I'd be loved and matter what. 0:34:30.196 --> 0:34:31.476 The result was when I came home. 0:34:32.276 --> 0:34:34.636 So even though I like desperately wanted to please him 0:34:34.676 --> 0:34:37.476 and be excellent for him, he never was, Like, he 0:34:37.556 --> 0:34:39.236 never came down on me when I failed. 0:34:40.156 --> 0:34:40.716 So from that. 0:34:40.716 --> 0:34:43.636 Perspective, I just I would like to be that kind 0:34:43.636 --> 0:34:44.876 of parent for my kids. 0:34:46.236 --> 0:34:47.636 Wait, the Martian has another question. 0:34:47.836 --> 0:34:49.276 Yes, Martian, this. 0:34:49.196 --> 0:34:49.636 Is the mark. 0:34:49.756 --> 0:34:59.876 This is the martians most trivial, frivolous privilege suggestion, although 0:34:59.916 --> 0:35:06.796 maybe not. The Martian says, wonders why given the all 0:35:06.836 --> 0:35:13.636 of the body issues that aflict girls in sports, why 0:35:14.036 --> 0:35:16.676 female runners wear bun huggers and crop. 0:35:16.476 --> 0:35:21.396 Tops, Well, very easy question to answer for the Martian. 0:35:21.396 --> 0:35:25.356 It's because our culture feels that female bodies are there 0:35:25.396 --> 0:35:32.076 to be viewed, objectified, commented on, and in order to 0:35:32.516 --> 0:35:35.396 do that, they need to be wearing less fabric and 0:35:35.436 --> 0:35:41.196 tighter fitting fabric. And that is how female athletes got 0:35:41.236 --> 0:35:44.076 their start. Post title nine. Was a movement to make 0:35:45.276 --> 0:35:47.596 really this is true, to make up for the fact 0:35:47.796 --> 0:35:52.436 that people would need to be watching inferior performances, and so. 0:35:52.916 --> 0:35:54.636 They needed to be a visual spectacle. 0:35:54.796 --> 0:35:59.116 And that's where the uniform differences came from, and gender 0:35:59.156 --> 0:36:02.756 specific clothing and sport, which, of course women will say 0:36:02.756 --> 0:36:04.876 they wanted. They didn't want to be wearing like a 0:36:04.956 --> 0:36:07.836 men's extra large hoodie necessarily all the time. They wanted 0:36:07.836 --> 0:36:11.276 things that fit and performed, But it took this esthetic 0:36:11.316 --> 0:36:13.596 angle that was yeah, so that's why. 0:36:13.916 --> 0:36:16.556 I because I was looking I read your book, and 0:36:16.596 --> 0:36:22.636 then I was looking at pictures of h I think 0:36:22.636 --> 0:36:24.676 it was not I think some cross country team. I 0:36:24.716 --> 0:36:26.836 forgot which women's cross country team, and all of a 0:36:26.876 --> 0:36:28.596 sudden I was aware of the fact that here are 0:36:29.076 --> 0:36:33.036 Here were five young women, all of whom had six packs, 0:36:33.796 --> 0:36:37.316 all of whom had not a stitch of fat on them, 0:36:37.636 --> 0:36:42.196 all of whom looked shiny and healthy. And I was like, Jesus, 0:36:42.196 --> 0:36:45.596 that's a high bar for somebody who is not an 0:36:45.636 --> 0:36:49.516 elite Division one runner or someone if I was an 0:36:49.836 --> 0:36:53.636 eleven twelve year old girl thinking about running in high 0:36:53.636 --> 0:36:56.076 school and and I go on line and I see 0:36:56.076 --> 0:36:59.596 that picture, That's what I'm Can we at least just 0:36:59.636 --> 0:37:01.676 wear a T shirt and a bear a bag of 0:37:01.716 --> 0:37:04.156 shorts and just make it just that little bit easier 0:37:04.196 --> 0:37:06.196 on that eleven year old who wants to join in. 0:37:06.356 --> 0:37:10.236 Yeah, well, the thing is that probably only well, I 0:37:10.276 --> 0:37:12.876 don't think a six pack is necessary for high performance 0:37:13.116 --> 0:37:17.156 at all. And there is a fixation with looking the 0:37:17.196 --> 0:37:20.756 part more than being the part, and the uniform creates 0:37:20.756 --> 0:37:22.596 that dynamic. I mean that played a huge part in 0:37:22.636 --> 0:37:25.036 my life. Throughout my whole career. It was like, Okay, 0:37:25.076 --> 0:37:26.956 my workouts are good, but like, what do I look 0:37:27.036 --> 0:37:29.796 like in my uniform? I don't look race ready, so 0:37:29.876 --> 0:37:31.916 I'm not race ready. Or the scale doesn't say I'm 0:37:31.996 --> 0:37:34.116 race ready, so I'm not race ready. Ors like those 0:37:34.116 --> 0:37:38.156 are not the most important indicators, not even close. And like, 0:37:38.196 --> 0:37:41.756 we have these concepts of race weight that are created 0:37:41.796 --> 0:37:45.956 and perpetuated by men, primarily who have way less monthly 0:37:45.996 --> 0:37:51.756 fluctuation hormonally, and they are being applied to female athletes 0:37:51.836 --> 0:37:53.876 as if we can somehow have a magic number on 0:37:53.916 --> 0:37:56.396 a scale that if we can stay this number, we 0:37:56.436 --> 0:37:59.716 will perform optimally based on physics formulas. 0:38:00.236 --> 0:38:01.916 But that's not how our bodies work. 0:38:02.356 --> 0:38:05.756 And then it creates this very narrow band that you 0:38:05.796 --> 0:38:08.476 have to try to exist in and achieve in order 0:38:08.516 --> 0:38:13.196 to be vsed as elite. And I mean I watched 0:38:13.196 --> 0:38:16.236 it happen on my teams where women who didn't look 0:38:16.356 --> 0:38:20.676 like that were shamed, you know, made to feel like 0:38:20.756 --> 0:38:24.556 they weren't committed enough just because they didn't have the 0:38:24.596 --> 0:38:27.356 six pack, didn't really matter how fast they were running. 0:38:27.956 --> 0:38:30.756 That's your college team. Yeah, because in our town, the 0:38:30.876 --> 0:38:33.036 high school girls wear all those uniforms. 0:38:33.116 --> 0:38:33.316 Yeah. 0:38:33.316 --> 0:38:34.476 I just think that's terrible. 0:38:35.116 --> 0:38:38.956 I just think that there's not a performance advantage or 0:38:38.996 --> 0:38:40.676 the or the men and boys would do it. 0:38:41.236 --> 0:38:45.116 Yeah, So it's just at the school you at the 0:38:45.156 --> 0:38:46.796 school you coached at. 0:38:47.156 --> 0:38:50.676 So you were coaching girls cross country, did they wear. 0:38:50.956 --> 0:38:53.076 Oh no, there's no way I would have let them. 0:38:53.596 --> 0:38:54.716 Oh, you put your foot down. 0:38:55.476 --> 0:39:00.676 The one of my favorite images of Des Linden when 0:39:00.676 --> 0:39:02.076 she won the Boston Marathon. 0:39:02.356 --> 0:39:04.716 She's wearing those baggy shorts for some reason. 0:39:04.796 --> 0:39:07.316 It's just the whole thing is so fantastic and badass 0:39:07.356 --> 0:39:10.476 and like, I just really so, it's much It's almost 0:39:10.716 --> 0:39:15.196 it's much more powerful emotionally to watch her because she's 0:39:15.236 --> 0:39:18.636 not pretending to be or wearing that uniform. 0:39:18.876 --> 0:39:19.876 She's just sort of being her. 0:39:20.316 --> 0:39:22.156 Yeah, she's just wearing the things she wants to wear. 0:39:22.236 --> 0:39:24.996 Wasn't she also wearing basically a parachute of a running jacket. 0:39:26.236 --> 0:39:32.276 I feel she was learning a jacket. Wow, Yeah, there 0:39:32.316 --> 0:39:32.676 was a time. 0:39:32.716 --> 0:39:34.596 For those of you don't, Des Linden is. 0:39:34.516 --> 0:39:39.636 A very very very very good American marathoner who won 0:39:40.276 --> 0:39:42.356 the year. There was a year that the Boston Marathon 0:39:42.596 --> 0:39:46.236 took place in a gale and the only way anyone 0:39:46.276 --> 0:39:49.436 you could win. I mean it was so nuts that, like, 0:39:49.596 --> 0:39:51.116 the only way you could win is if you were 0:39:51.116 --> 0:39:57.116 the single toughest, most badass and DEAs Linden just sailed through. 0:39:57.276 --> 0:39:57.876 I can't. 0:39:58.276 --> 0:40:01.356 I likely wept the last three miles of that watching 0:40:01.396 --> 0:40:03.036 on TV, I was like, I could not believe how 0:40:03.076 --> 0:40:03.716 emotional it was. 0:40:03.836 --> 0:40:07.036 She broke an incredibly long drought in the event for 0:40:07.076 --> 0:40:07.836 American winner. 0:40:07.876 --> 0:40:12.236 And yeah, and her book's coming out in like a week. 0:40:12.276 --> 0:40:13.156 I think that's right. 0:40:13.636 --> 0:40:16.716 We should do it again with day Yeah, definitely, maybe. 0:40:16.476 --> 0:40:17.316 She'll be running with me. 0:40:17.396 --> 0:40:23.716 I'm like, when we returned, we don't find me a 0:40:23.796 --> 0:40:26.676 running partner, but we do settle on a grand solution 0:40:27.076 --> 0:40:38.356 to fix youth sports once and for all. 0:40:38.516 --> 0:40:42.276 Oh the Martian wonders. So here's the It's really me, 0:40:42.396 --> 0:40:44.436 not the Marshal on this one. 0:40:45.116 --> 0:40:50.516 You know, I ran competitively in high school and stopped 0:40:50.716 --> 0:40:52.356 for thirty five years. 0:40:52.676 --> 0:40:53.596 Let's started again. 0:40:54.636 --> 0:40:58.956 And I stopped because although I was very successful as 0:40:58.956 --> 0:41:03.116 a runner, the pressure I was thirteen and fourteen and 0:41:03.196 --> 0:41:07.436 fifteen and I found the pressure of racing it grew 0:41:07.556 --> 0:41:11.276 unbearable and I just couldn't do it anymore. And I've 0:41:11.516 --> 0:41:16.956 often and I lost track of how much joy I 0:41:17.036 --> 0:41:21.036 found in running, and got consumed by the fact that 0:41:21.076 --> 0:41:23.076 the only measure of me as a runner was whether 0:41:23.116 --> 0:41:25.356 I could win a race, and that like, and I 0:41:26.676 --> 0:41:29.116 lost out on thirty five years of pleasure as a 0:41:29.156 --> 0:41:31.076 result of this is too bad. 0:41:31.396 --> 0:41:32.636 And now I'm wondering. 0:41:35.036 --> 0:41:38.796 Should we should we since we're banning stuff, lots of stuff, 0:41:39.636 --> 0:41:42.796 should we be should we be banning kind of serious 0:41:42.836 --> 0:41:48.076 competition until I don't know, fifteen or sixteen or something. 0:41:48.236 --> 0:41:52.316 Should we push out the Is there any reason why 0:41:52.356 --> 0:41:53.916 thirteen year old should be competing at. 0:41:53.876 --> 0:41:54.556 The national level? 0:41:54.836 --> 0:41:57.036 No? In my view, Well, you know, I was at 0:41:57.036 --> 0:42:00.596 the Millrose Games about six weeks ago and noticed that 0:42:00.636 --> 0:42:03.516 they had a race for the fastest eight year old 0:42:03.596 --> 0:42:06.036 in the world, and they had these, you know, these 0:42:06.516 --> 0:42:11.076 tiny children lined up and they you know, from different countries. 0:42:11.116 --> 0:42:13.916 I don't know where they came from, but they all 0:42:13.996 --> 0:42:18.516 ran like the same time, like ridiculously fast. And this 0:42:18.556 --> 0:42:20.876 is one you know we're talking about before you mentioned 0:42:20.956 --> 0:42:24.076 various models for doing things we don't need to do 0:42:24.156 --> 0:42:28.276 the national championships at age thirteen and twelve, Like maybe 0:42:29.156 --> 0:42:31.476 in a lot of sports around this country, there are 0:42:31.516 --> 0:42:38.036 these ridiculous championships of like little children, and there's just 0:42:38.396 --> 0:42:41.556 there's no reason for that. And the country that doesn't 0:42:41.556 --> 0:42:45.676 do this is Norway and they have incredibly robust participation 0:42:46.276 --> 0:42:49.436 and then like great success with their athletes after So 0:42:49.756 --> 0:42:53.356 I would tell the Martian. Let's let's forget the championships. 0:42:53.716 --> 0:42:55.116 You know what I was before fifteen? 0:42:55.196 --> 0:42:57.476 Say I did this, I did this recently and I 0:42:57.476 --> 0:42:59.396 can't remember what it was. Fifteen year olds with sixteen 0:42:59.436 --> 0:43:03.876 year olds. Someone made a list of the top English 0:43:04.196 --> 0:43:10.396 sixteen year old male milers, the enemy runners over the 0:43:10.476 --> 0:43:14.036 last thirty years somewhat years, and the question raised was 0:43:14.076 --> 0:43:18.116 how many of them went on to be world class 0:43:18.396 --> 0:43:22.356 adult milers, And the answer was such a small number 0:43:22.356 --> 0:43:25.516 that it was like, You're like, wait, what so if 0:43:25.516 --> 0:43:28.356 we're doing sports at that age, because we're trying to 0:43:28.556 --> 0:43:33.076 identify people who will be talented as adult athletes, it's 0:43:33.156 --> 0:43:35.076 just about the worst predictor of imagine, Yeah. 0:43:34.876 --> 0:43:35.516 It's not working. 0:43:36.276 --> 0:43:38.036 When I was just thinking in this story, like the 0:43:38.076 --> 0:43:40.716 reason why we have the National Championships is for the 0:43:40.756 --> 0:43:43.916 adults exactly, and for the sponsors and the people want 0:43:43.956 --> 0:43:46.916 to make money hosting it and getting the. 0:43:46.876 --> 0:43:49.676 TV rights and all that stuff. It's like, show me 0:43:49.716 --> 0:43:50.436 the eight year. 0:43:50.276 --> 0:43:52.276 Old who's like, you know, I want to raise the 0:43:52.276 --> 0:43:55.836 best eight year olds in the world, Mom, can you. 0:43:55.756 --> 0:43:57.676 Look that upes that exists? Right? 0:43:57.836 --> 0:44:04.196 You know, hold on, let's go to some questions for 0:44:04.316 --> 0:44:07.396 Linda how do you as a coach solve the problem 0:44:07.996 --> 0:44:12.356 that you're more likely to favor the gifted. 0:44:11.996 --> 0:44:15.236 Ones than the not so gifted ones. Is that a problem? 0:44:15.316 --> 0:44:17.916 Well, I don't know exactly. I mean, I think you 0:44:17.916 --> 0:44:19.876 have to be aware of the fact that you may have, 0:44:20.676 --> 0:44:22.996 you know, favorites, And I mean, I would say it's 0:44:22.996 --> 0:44:25.636 more about favoritism because sometimes the best one is not 0:44:25.676 --> 0:44:30.836 your favorite. So I think it's just takes awareness on 0:44:30.916 --> 0:44:33.316 the part of the coach to recognize that it's not 0:44:33.316 --> 0:44:38.116 building the team to to focus solely on the best girls. 0:44:38.276 --> 0:44:39.196 Yeah, I mean it's hard. 0:44:39.196 --> 0:44:42.316 I mean, Lauren, if I was your high school coach, 0:44:42.436 --> 0:44:43.676 I would be famous. 0:44:43.916 --> 0:44:46.476 Right, I don't know, do you know my high school coach? 0:44:48.356 --> 0:44:50.316 I mean, I know. 0:44:50.396 --> 0:44:54.236 My point is that there's a natural the kind of 0:44:54.276 --> 0:44:59.156 the success of the athlete invariably reflects back in ways 0:44:59.156 --> 0:45:01.556 that it's not always something that's. 0:45:01.396 --> 0:45:04.396 Not always The story didn't make the book, but and 0:45:04.396 --> 0:45:05.876 I'm still a little bit upset about it. 0:45:05.916 --> 0:45:06.636 No, I'm just kidding. 0:45:07.476 --> 0:45:11.436 But my high school coach, he by the time my 0:45:11.476 --> 0:45:13.796 senior year came around, he was getting really swept up 0:45:14.116 --> 0:45:17.596 in the accolades and how it reflected on him. And 0:45:18.316 --> 0:45:20.996 there was some indoor meet that I really we never 0:45:21.036 --> 0:45:23.876 focused on from southern California, like, indoor track is not 0:45:24.156 --> 0:45:26.316 really a thing, but there is this one place that 0:45:26.356 --> 0:45:27.796 you can do it with a wooden track, and so 0:45:27.916 --> 0:45:28.796 we would go and. 0:45:28.716 --> 0:45:30.876 Sort of have a relay every year there. 0:45:30.956 --> 0:45:32.916 But he's like, no, you're gonna run the invitational mile 0:45:33.036 --> 0:45:35.716 and the Invitational two mile. These used to be prestigious 0:45:35.756 --> 0:45:38.076 races twenty five years ago. 0:45:37.836 --> 0:45:40.356 I want to coach someone who wins these races. 0:45:40.916 --> 0:45:42.836 And so we were training over Christmas break for the 0:45:42.876 --> 0:45:45.516 first time ever, like doing these hard workouts in a 0:45:45.556 --> 0:45:47.516 time of year when normally we're just going on fun runs. 0:45:47.556 --> 0:45:49.956 I was not enjoying myself. I was feeling tired from 0:45:49.996 --> 0:45:52.116 the cross country season. And when we got there, I 0:45:52.196 --> 0:45:54.556 ran the first race, did terribly and I was like, 0:45:54.596 --> 0:45:56.436 I don't want to do the second race, and he's like, no, 0:45:56.436 --> 0:45:57.876 you need to do the second race. This is a 0:45:57.916 --> 0:46:00.396 big opportunity. Is like pushing me to do it. And 0:46:00.436 --> 0:46:03.516 I was like, Coach, I'm not your racehorse. And he 0:46:03.596 --> 0:46:05.836 loves telling that story to people who'll start bust out laughing. 0:46:05.836 --> 0:46:06.916 He's like, can you believe that? 0:46:07.196 --> 0:46:09.516 Can you believe she said that to me and then 0:46:09.676 --> 0:46:11.716 but then he apologized in the car later he was 0:46:11.716 --> 0:46:14.396 like it was he actually said, he's like, I was 0:46:14.436 --> 0:46:15.316 getting swept up. 0:46:15.596 --> 0:46:16.516 I was making out me. 0:46:16.716 --> 0:46:19.556 I wanted that, and you never wanted it, and I 0:46:19.636 --> 0:46:21.876 just wasn't listening to you when you were trying. 0:46:21.596 --> 0:46:26.316 To tell me. So it's real. It's a rare pressure, man, 0:46:26.636 --> 0:46:27.476 that's a rare coach. 0:46:28.596 --> 0:46:30.156 So we had a whole series of things we wanted 0:46:30.196 --> 0:46:33.996 to ban. Oh yes, can we So we wanted to 0:46:33.996 --> 0:46:36.116 ban bun huggers and crop. 0:46:35.916 --> 0:46:39.556 Tops around there? What's it man? Around there? I think. 0:46:44.476 --> 0:46:45.956 Parents were banned parents. 0:46:46.236 --> 0:46:49.916 We're banning a competition before fifteen fifteen. 0:46:50.036 --> 0:46:51.356 I think it's a reasonable. 0:46:51.796 --> 0:46:53.596 Realized Christians are okay, just not. 0:46:54.196 --> 0:46:56.796 My running crew was over effectively at fifteen, so you've 0:46:56.876 --> 0:46:58.636 just erased me from. 0:46:59.476 --> 0:47:00.636 I Now I have nothing. 0:47:01.316 --> 0:47:03.276 You know, the amount of mileage I've gotten out over 0:47:03.316 --> 0:47:05.236 the years over my running exploits at the age of 0:47:05.316 --> 0:47:07.476 fourteen is considerable. 0:47:08.116 --> 0:47:11.236 That's now gone. Anyways, I'm fine. I'll take it on 0:47:11.276 --> 0:47:12.876 the champion of the team. 0:47:13.116 --> 0:47:15.676 What's your favorite band of all the bands? If you 0:47:15.676 --> 0:47:17.156 could only do one of those, we can bend the 0:47:17.156 --> 0:47:22.636 parent the Championships, the bun Huggers, and oh and the 0:47:22.636 --> 0:47:23.596 college scholarships. 0:47:24.156 --> 0:47:25.516 I know, my favorite band. 0:47:26.876 --> 0:47:29.596 College scholarships is my favorite band mine. I think it 0:47:29.636 --> 0:47:32.116 would downstream solve a lot of the other problems. They 0:47:32.116 --> 0:47:36.716 could basically neutralize parents most of them. 0:47:36.956 --> 0:47:43.396 Just that expression is so fantastic. Neutralized three parents up 0:47:43.436 --> 0:47:46.636 on stage talking about the virtues of neutralizing people in 0:47:46.636 --> 0:47:47.236 our position. 0:47:49.116 --> 0:47:51.516 Yeah, and then there'd be less motivation to host the 0:47:51.596 --> 0:47:53.196 eight year old World Championships. 0:47:53.436 --> 0:47:57.636 Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well here's a good question. 0:47:57.956 --> 0:47:59.996 Does a change in women's girls' sports need to start 0:47:59.996 --> 0:48:02.436 at the grassroots level or we'll have to or are 0:48:02.436 --> 0:48:05.876 we talking something has to happen top down? Can there 0:48:05.916 --> 0:48:08.196 be a can we have a revolution that can change this? 0:48:08.996 --> 0:48:10.876 Or or or do we not? 0:48:11.236 --> 0:48:13.796 Is someone that you talk about it kind of you 0:48:13.836 --> 0:48:17.116 want a czar? You want you wanted Michelle Obama to 0:48:17.196 --> 0:48:17.796 kind of step in. 0:48:17.996 --> 0:48:19.116 Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. 0:48:19.476 --> 0:48:22.956 She's so many people have so many czar jobs for her. Yeah, 0:48:23.356 --> 0:48:28.476 it's like Michelle not like basically every intactical problem America has, 0:48:28.716 --> 0:48:31.996 we think oo, William, Michelle. 0:48:35.276 --> 0:48:36.756 I think it has to be both. I know that's 0:48:36.756 --> 0:48:38.796 a bit of a cop out, but Okay, let's start 0:48:38.796 --> 0:48:42.476 with the top though. If we ban the scholarships, that 0:48:42.636 --> 0:48:44.716 is going to have this trickle down effect and it's 0:48:44.716 --> 0:48:47.316 going to you know, permeate all the way down. That 0:48:47.356 --> 0:48:50.836 addresses the larger issues with you sports more than you 0:48:50.876 --> 0:48:54.956 know the ones the specific to girl problems. But I 0:48:54.996 --> 0:48:58.076 think it would transform the whole the whole game. 0:48:58.756 --> 0:49:00.556 And then a similar high level thing I think would 0:49:00.596 --> 0:49:05.276 be mandatory coaching education for anyone working with female bodied athletes. 0:49:05.796 --> 0:49:07.916 I think there's I can't think of a single reason 0:49:07.956 --> 0:49:10.356 why we wouldn't do that with the giant gap and 0:49:10.436 --> 0:49:13.316 knowledge we have. And then everyone, of course should buy 0:49:13.316 --> 0:49:15.996 our books because that'll be the grassroots thing that'll create 0:49:16.116 --> 0:49:19.396 like our own me too moment where you know, I'm 0:49:19.436 --> 0:49:20.316 not standing for. 0:49:20.236 --> 0:49:24.276 It on the on the grassroots thing the thing and 0:49:24.956 --> 0:49:27.156 both of you would have way more knowledge about this 0:49:27.236 --> 0:49:30.916 than me. But am I being overly optimistic if I 0:49:31.076 --> 0:49:34.716 say that this the change is going to happen when 0:49:34.756 --> 0:49:39.916 the girls themselves stand up and just say this is nuts. 0:49:39.996 --> 0:49:40.476 It's like. 0:49:42.236 --> 0:49:44.236 If you're the coach of that team and you observe 0:49:44.316 --> 0:49:49.796 that there are someone's disappeared and no one's really talking 0:49:49.836 --> 0:49:53.996 about why someone's on her third or fourth unexplainable stress fracture, 0:49:54.076 --> 0:49:57.156 someone's beliemic someone and then the person who wins the 0:49:57.236 --> 0:49:59.716 race from the other team is so scarily thin that 0:49:59.756 --> 0:50:00.636 you're worried about her. 0:50:00.716 --> 0:50:03.516 Yeah, well, you can normalize anything, just going to say 0:50:03.676 --> 0:50:06.316 in the culture, right, and so yeah, I think, but 0:50:06.356 --> 0:50:07.956 I don't think that it's fair to put it on 0:50:07.996 --> 0:50:08.476 the girls. 0:50:08.636 --> 0:50:11.396 I think that I really think parents, you know, parents 0:50:11.436 --> 0:50:13.916 don't have enough to do if they want to get involved. 0:50:13.996 --> 0:50:17.396 This is how you should get involved, which is like, yeah, like, 0:50:17.556 --> 0:50:21.476 don't stand for it. Can you talk about that about 0:50:21.516 --> 0:50:24.036 stepping in, not being afraid to be the parent that says, no, 0:50:24.276 --> 0:50:26.836 I'm not going to do the extra thing. 0:50:27.476 --> 0:50:30.956 Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's funny. In my book, 0:50:30.996 --> 0:50:33.236 I was trying to kind of both understand where parents 0:50:33.236 --> 0:50:38.276 are coming from and also be, you know, offer a critique. 0:50:38.316 --> 0:50:42.076 And I think that it is important that parents recognize 0:50:42.076 --> 0:50:44.836 they have agency that they don't have to go along 0:50:44.876 --> 0:50:48.956 with everything that you know, that extra strength and conditioning 0:50:48.996 --> 0:50:55.036 training or you know, weight workout that might be helpful. 0:50:55.076 --> 0:50:58.636 The supplemental training like the soccer club in my town 0:50:58.636 --> 0:51:01.636 that offers six year olds that they can say no 0:51:01.756 --> 0:51:03.316 to that. It's okay to say no to that. 0:51:04.196 --> 0:51:06.156 And from just the other day, when I drop my 0:51:06.236 --> 0:51:08.796 kid off at the five hundred dollars Spring Soccer Experience 0:51:10.756 --> 0:51:13.636 at practice, I'm very annoyed. 0:51:13.876 --> 0:51:16.436 Wait till you hear this part. I was like, see you, Jude. 0:51:16.636 --> 0:51:18.996 And then one of the parents that I know is 0:51:19.036 --> 0:51:20.716 a parent of another kid in the class, and she's like, 0:51:20.796 --> 0:51:25.156 you're not staying. God, So it makes it tough to 0:51:25.276 --> 0:51:27.236 you know, we're giving each other pressure. 0:51:28.396 --> 0:51:29.636 We're staying at a practice. 0:51:29.796 --> 0:51:31.796 Yeah, I wasn't going to stay and watch the practice. 0:51:32.036 --> 0:51:34.436 God, God, this is what I have to look forward to. 0:51:35.236 --> 0:51:39.716 Wait where someone is waving frantically at me from off stage. 0:51:39.876 --> 0:51:42.916 But I so we got to end soon. But I 0:51:42.996 --> 0:51:47.316 wanted to fill the runners out there. I wanted to 0:51:47.356 --> 0:51:50.116 get to toss them a bone. And someone asked this 0:51:50.236 --> 0:51:53.156 question of you, Lawrence. Since you're you're a you're running. 0:51:53.356 --> 0:51:54.756 It's so rare that we get to hang out with 0:51:54.796 --> 0:51:58.516 like it's fun. But I'm still bitter about not getting 0:51:58.516 --> 0:51:59.196 to go running with you. 0:51:59.276 --> 0:52:01.796 But because you know what, I'll tell you why I 0:52:01.836 --> 0:52:02.356 was looking for. 0:52:04.116 --> 0:52:04.796 It's not too late. 0:52:04.836 --> 0:52:07.916 What are you doing this? This is the thing. 0:52:08.956 --> 0:52:11.756 The those of us who are just kind of every 0:52:11.796 --> 0:52:15.316 day runners when we run with people who are at 0:52:15.316 --> 0:52:15.836 your level. 0:52:16.196 --> 0:52:18.676 You guys, Floatt, and. 0:52:18.596 --> 0:52:21.036 We're running and you look over and you're just sh 0:52:22.436 --> 0:52:25.396 and it's like magic. It's like watching a magician do 0:52:25.516 --> 0:52:28.876 a trick, right, And you're like, oh my god, you're 0:52:28.876 --> 0:52:30.756 not even you're not breathing. 0:52:30.396 --> 0:52:33.636 And not like you're just you're touching the ground and 0:52:33.676 --> 0:52:34.996 you're like, how is this happening? 0:52:35.396 --> 0:52:39.196 That sounds like you're an intellectually curious person. Most people 0:52:39.316 --> 0:52:40.516 are like I'd like, I'm like, do you want to 0:52:40.596 --> 0:52:42.876 run with me? They're like, oh no, no, no, I 0:52:42.916 --> 0:52:44.596 would never do that. I'm like, I promise I'll run 0:52:44.636 --> 0:52:45.956 the pace you want to run, and they're. 0:52:45.836 --> 0:52:47.036 Just like, no, definitely, right. 0:52:47.156 --> 0:52:48.796 Well, the question this is really for the two of you, 0:52:48.836 --> 0:52:51.316 and then we really do have to stop. What did 0:52:51.356 --> 0:52:56.716 you guys like the most about parathon training? And you start, 0:52:56.756 --> 0:52:58.316 and then we'll let laurd boy. 0:52:58.276 --> 0:53:00.036 It's a thousand years ago that I ran. 0:53:02.036 --> 0:53:03.876 If I had one two forty nine, I would have 0:53:03.916 --> 0:53:08.156 a T shirt that said, all right, so like willia 0:53:08.196 --> 0:53:08.836 own horn here? 0:53:09.236 --> 0:53:09.436 Yeah? 0:53:09.436 --> 0:53:13.836 And in super shoes, I'd be like two thirty. 0:53:12.876 --> 0:53:17.396 Right, Oh, you're right. You know, I had a great 0:53:17.396 --> 0:53:22.316 group to train with, and the training is the fun part, 0:53:24.276 --> 0:53:28.236 not always, but it's the camaraderie that I got in 0:53:28.276 --> 0:53:31.196 the marathon training and you're out there a long time. 0:53:31.916 --> 0:53:34.716 So for those, you know, the training runs were kind 0:53:34.756 --> 0:53:37.036 of fun to do too, you know, when they weren't miserable. 0:53:39.556 --> 0:53:42.236 I didn't have a group, but I did get to 0:53:43.196 --> 0:53:46.596 have my professional coach, Mark Roland at organ Track Club Elite. 0:53:46.916 --> 0:53:47.836 I had always had him in. 0:53:47.836 --> 0:53:50.236 A group setting and I was the only one doing 0:53:50.236 --> 0:53:52.276 a marathon and that's normally the time year I did 0:53:52.276 --> 0:53:54.516 in New York when track and field athletes are taking 0:53:54.516 --> 0:53:56.916 a break, and so I had him to myself and 0:53:56.956 --> 0:53:59.636 he would ride his bike alongside me and we got 0:53:59.676 --> 0:54:02.356 to have all these really nice chats, and like, I 0:54:02.476 --> 0:54:04.756 just loved that was the last year we worked together, 0:54:04.956 --> 0:54:05.316 so to. 0:54:05.316 --> 0:54:08.116 Have that, I have a lot of fond memories from that. 0:54:08.556 --> 0:54:08.956 Yeah. 0:54:09.156 --> 0:54:11.676 I think that's a lovely way to end because it's 0:54:11.716 --> 0:54:14.756 a reminder we've been talking about what's wrong with running. 0:54:15.276 --> 0:54:17.196 And the thing that I always try and tell young 0:54:17.236 --> 0:54:20.476 people when I try to get them to become runners, 0:54:20.596 --> 0:54:24.316 is that this thing, the camaraderie stuff is something that 0:54:24.516 --> 0:54:27.556 is just magical, Like going on a long run with 0:54:27.596 --> 0:54:30.356 a group of people who you are friends with, are 0:54:30.356 --> 0:54:32.716 close to, and you've worked out with before. There's there's 0:54:32.756 --> 0:54:34.836 something there that you'll never find anywhere else. 0:54:34.876 --> 0:54:39.276 It's yeah, and I think that that love, like that's 0:54:39.316 --> 0:54:41.876 what drove our books. It's like when you know that 0:54:42.196 --> 0:54:45.076 you have something worth fighting for and protecting, and we 0:54:45.116 --> 0:54:48.276 really just want to remove a lot of the garbage 0:54:48.316 --> 0:54:50.676 that's getting in the way of that, right. 0:54:51.076 --> 0:54:54.236 Yeah, Well, thank you so much to the two of you, 0:54:54.956 --> 0:54:58.436 and thank you to all of you, and go get 0:54:58.516 --> 0:55:06.836 you go buy your books and get them some. This 0:55:06.956 --> 0:55:10.156 episode of Revisionist History was produced by Sam and Giesto 0:55:10.196 --> 0:55:14.356 with Kiara Powell, Bendadapfh Haffrey, and Jacob Smith. Fact checking 0:55:14.396 --> 0:55:19.436 by Kishell Williams and Tally Emlin. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. 0:55:19.676 --> 0:55:23.516 Original scoring by Luis Qira, mastering by Sarah Bruguier, and 0:55:23.636 --> 0:55:27.476 engineering by Nina Lawrence. Special thanks to the ninety second 0:55:27.516 --> 0:55:31.556 Street Why crew and my panel of potential running partners 0:55:32.156 --> 0:55:34.956 Lauren Fleishman and Linda Flanagan. 0:55:35.996 --> 0:55:36.876 I'm Malcolm Glappa.