1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:25,996 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glable. Here, we're back with another conversation 3 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:30,676 Speaker 2: from our Revisionist History Live series on Mastery. This took 4 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 2: place at the ninety second Street Y in New York. 5 00:00:34,516 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 2: As many of you know, I'm a pretty serious runner, 6 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:41,236 Speaker 2: and like most competitive runners, I was most running crazy 7 00:00:41,236 --> 00:00:44,156 Speaker 2: when I was a kid. I started at thirteen, ran 8 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:47,156 Speaker 2: through high school and a little in college. It was 9 00:00:47,196 --> 00:00:50,276 Speaker 2: the single most fun thing I did growing up. Sports 10 00:00:50,396 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 2: were my refuge from the craziness of adolescence. But one 11 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:57,156 Speaker 2: of the things that has become clear in recent years 12 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:00,436 Speaker 2: is that youth sports are no longer the oasis they 13 00:01:00,516 --> 00:01:04,716 Speaker 2: used to be. That something very troubling is happening. Higher pressure, 14 00:01:04,796 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 2: abusive coaches, over involved parents, and it's worse for girls, 15 00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 2: eating disorders, distorted body images. So I asked two people 16 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 2: to come and talk about all this with me and 17 00:01:16,476 --> 00:01:22,236 Speaker 2: figure out some answers. Lauren Fleshman and Linda Flanagan, both athletes, 18 00:01:22,556 --> 00:01:26,476 Speaker 2: coaches and parents who've thought a lot about this problem, 19 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:28,956 Speaker 2: and by the way, who happened to have the same initials. 20 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,196 Speaker 2: So just to be clear, this is Linda. 21 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:37,636 Speaker 3: That's strangely, when many parents don't step in, they raise 22 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:40,356 Speaker 3: hell when you know their child is put in right field. 23 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 3: But if there's like just a lot of nastiness and 24 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 3: a terrible team culture, they're quiet. 25 00:01:48,556 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 2: Linda Flanagan, author of Take Back the Game, How money 26 00:01:51,796 --> 00:01:55,116 Speaker 2: and mania are ruining kids sports and why it matters. 27 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 2: And here is Lauren. 28 00:01:58,236 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 4: Truly like my sport experience always felt like it was mine. 29 00:02:02,356 --> 00:02:06,356 Speaker 2: Lauren Fleshman, world class runner, author of Good for a Girl, 30 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 2: A Woman Running in a man's world. Linda and Lauren 31 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 2: gave me exactly what I wanted. I won't say we 32 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:17,396 Speaker 2: fixed kid sports, but I do see a future worth 33 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 2: believing in. 34 00:02:19,036 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 1: Take a listen. 35 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 2: For those of you who don't know, Laura was one 36 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 2: of the great distance runners of her generation. She is 37 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 2: an entrepreneur and now she's a writer. Now she's written 38 00:02:36,956 --> 00:02:42,396 Speaker 2: this wonderful book. Linda, also accomplished runner. Has done a 39 00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 2: number of things, interesting things over the course of your career, 40 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:48,756 Speaker 2: but of relevance to this evening, you coach for many 41 00:02:48,796 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 2: years at the high school level, and it's really out 42 00:02:52,876 --> 00:02:55,836 Speaker 2: of those experiences that you came to write your book, 43 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 2: Take Back the Game. And I am interested in the 44 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 2: two of you for a number of reasons. But I'm 45 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:05,436 Speaker 2: also a runner, not nearly as accomplished as either of you. 46 00:03:06,196 --> 00:03:09,036 Speaker 2: In fact, I thought that we could all go for 47 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 2: run this afternoon, and I asked, So I asked first, 48 00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 2: So I said, let's go for run, say, and so 49 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:18,596 Speaker 2: Linda says, well, I'm not running with Lauren. She's world class, 50 00:03:19,156 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 2: so you flake. And then I said, all right, I'll 51 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:24,876 Speaker 2: go running with Lauren. And then Lauren says, no, I'm 52 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 2: not going right, I'm gonna go for a runner early 53 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 2: in the day. And I think, what happened to Krug 54 00:03:29,316 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 2: and found wrong? Lauren, you looked at my strata. You said, 55 00:03:33,036 --> 00:03:37,116 Speaker 2: he's so slow. Why would I waste a good running day? 56 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:38,516 Speaker 1: So I ran alone. 57 00:03:38,756 --> 00:03:41,956 Speaker 4: So I said, you should have gone in the morning 58 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:42,236 Speaker 4: with me. 59 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,236 Speaker 2: So I'll get over that though. I so both of 60 00:03:48,276 --> 00:03:53,156 Speaker 2: you have written books about the crisis in youth sports. 61 00:03:54,076 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 2: We said girls sports, and I think probably we should. 62 00:03:57,876 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 2: We're going to talk probably more about girls than boys 63 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 2: in this because I think both of you would agree 64 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 2: that problems are more acute with girls. And just to 65 00:04:06,876 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 2: set things up, I wanted to I'm going to just describe. 66 00:04:11,556 --> 00:04:13,636 Speaker 1: The manner in which this conversation is going to take place. 67 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 2: Because we want to play a little game, the Martian game, 68 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:19,516 Speaker 2: and the Martian game is that. Imagine there's a Martian 69 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:25,636 Speaker 2: who doesn't know anything about America, American culture, sports in America, nothing, 70 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 2: just a Martian in one of those balloons, and all 71 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: he's been given is your two books. So he reads 72 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:34,996 Speaker 2: your two books and he reaches a series of He 73 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 2: has no context, he has no inhibitions, he's not worried 74 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 2: about asking. So I am the Martian, and I'm going 75 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:45,796 Speaker 2: to ask a series of questions, unconstrained by any kind 76 00:04:45,836 --> 00:04:50,716 Speaker 2: of you know, other ideological positions of mine, previous experiences. 77 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 2: I'm just drawing what might seem like extreme conclusions from 78 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:57,596 Speaker 2: both of your books, and I want you to respond 79 00:04:57,636 --> 00:04:58,876 Speaker 2: to these conclusions. 80 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, right. 81 00:05:02,956 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 2: The martians first statement is the Martians says, huh, should 82 00:05:07,876 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 2: we ban men from ever coaching women? 83 00:05:11,556 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 1: Again? 84 00:05:15,916 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 3: It might not be a bad idea. Tell me why, Well, 85 00:05:23,516 --> 00:05:25,756 Speaker 3: there are too many men coaching women. For one thing, 86 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 3: women need women and girls need female role models in 87 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 3: leadership positions. Everyone thinks of sports as that's where you 88 00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 3: learn how to be a leader. And yet you know, 89 00:05:40,436 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 3: very few girls are actually coached by women and even 90 00:05:44,196 --> 00:05:47,756 Speaker 3: at the collegiate level it's about forty two. High school 91 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:50,716 Speaker 3: level it's in the twenties, and in youth sports is 92 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 3: twenty five percent. So let's get more women in there 93 00:05:54,676 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 3: so that young girls and teenagers can see that women 94 00:05:58,596 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 3: can be leaders too. 95 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: Lauren, do you have thoughts on the Martians band? 96 00:06:07,476 --> 00:06:09,116 Speaker 4: Well, I like these points. 97 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:13,316 Speaker 5: I agree, and running only seventeen percent of the coaches 98 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 5: and runninger women, which I was really surprised, even lower 99 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 5: than the average. I would say, let's not ban them 100 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:27,556 Speaker 5: until we've given them a chance to fill the giant 101 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:30,316 Speaker 5: gap of knowledge that we all are living with when 102 00:06:30,316 --> 00:06:31,636 Speaker 5: it comes to female. 103 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 4: Bodies and how they develop and how they operate. Let's 104 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:39,076 Speaker 4: let them. 105 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 5: Let's give them a chance to learn. Let's see how 106 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 5: many of them want to and the ones that want 107 00:06:43,516 --> 00:06:44,476 Speaker 5: to and are willing. 108 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:44,996 Speaker 4: To, and we'll do the work. 109 00:06:45,036 --> 00:06:47,316 Speaker 5: Let's let them stay and then let's do all the 110 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:49,756 Speaker 5: stuff that Flinda's talking about enlightened. 111 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:54,436 Speaker 2: I was struck in reading your book, Laurin, by a 112 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:57,156 Speaker 2: big chunk of your book is It is a very 113 00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:03,516 Speaker 2: powerful and insightful explanation of the difference in the physiological 114 00:07:03,596 --> 00:07:07,596 Speaker 2: trajectories of young women and young men, and you make this, 115 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 2: you would talk about your time at Stanford to the 116 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 2: young man, are a man or a boar? Whatever they 117 00:07:14,556 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 2: are between of college age is at their physical peak. 118 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:24,556 Speaker 2: They get better almost automatically every year. They're full of 119 00:07:24,596 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 2: all the every positive hormone own demand, and whereas the 120 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:33,276 Speaker 2: women are going through a much more complicated process. And 121 00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 2: the reason the Martian asks that question is that Martian says, 122 00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 2: how can a man ever fully understand what. 123 00:07:39,756 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 1: A young woman is going through if he's never gone 124 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: through it himself. 125 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:48,716 Speaker 5: Well, I would say to the Martian, we can't apply 126 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,396 Speaker 5: that logic to the problems of the world, or else 127 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 5: the problems would only be able to be solved by 128 00:07:54,316 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 5: people who've had an identical experience. And the problems are 129 00:07:58,996 --> 00:08:02,876 Speaker 5: big enough that we need everyone involved. And I don't 130 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 5: think there's anything that mysterious about the female body that 131 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:10,796 Speaker 5: anybody couldn't learn if they wanted to. 132 00:08:12,316 --> 00:08:14,476 Speaker 4: It's just what we've Yeah, but we've. 133 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:18,196 Speaker 2: Been added for years and years and years now. And 134 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:22,276 Speaker 2: you know, just reading that your book and that little 135 00:08:22,916 --> 00:08:26,596 Speaker 2: section it's not in, you know, there's we have an 136 00:08:26,596 --> 00:08:31,276 Speaker 2: overwhelming we have a largely male group of coaches, and 137 00:08:31,356 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 2: yet we still have. We have a persistence of these 138 00:08:33,476 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 2: kinds of problems, and I'm wondering whether as the first 139 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 2: step in solving the problem is to is to replace 140 00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 2: them with people who maybe have a better chance of understanding. 141 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, with women coaches, you have a higher likelihood 142 00:08:49,916 --> 00:08:53,636 Speaker 5: that they've gone through something similar. But you also have 143 00:08:53,716 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 5: plenty of female coaches perpetuating the same harm that their 144 00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:01,436 Speaker 5: male coaches you know, passed down to them and repeat 145 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 5: the culture. And so there's there's the knowledge is needed 146 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:07,436 Speaker 5: by female coaches too. I get a lot of messages 147 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 5: of people who've read the book women men who are like, Wow, 148 00:09:10,476 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 5: I didn't know any of this stuff. I feel really 149 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:14,356 Speaker 5: bad now. I've been coaching for ten years, fifteen years. 150 00:09:14,556 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 5: I wish I could go back and have some different 151 00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 5: conversations with my athletes than I had. There was no 152 00:09:19,836 --> 00:09:22,676 Speaker 5: understanding of why the women were making the decisions they 153 00:09:22,676 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 5: were making, why they were breaking their bodies were breaking 154 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 5: down at higher rates than our male peers. And I mean, 155 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 5: we don't study female bodies enough. We don't have enough 156 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:35,476 Speaker 5: research on femal bodies. So I can't really like blame 157 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:39,076 Speaker 5: coaches for not knowing these things. Plus we sexualize most 158 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 5: of the things that are specifically female, you know, or 159 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:45,956 Speaker 5: we make them dirty, like the menstrual cycle has this 160 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:49,436 Speaker 5: reputation for being something you can't talk about without using euphemisms. 161 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:51,996 Speaker 5: Breasts are sexualized as soon as you're twelve and a 162 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:53,796 Speaker 5: half and get them, so it makes it hard to 163 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 5: talk about our bodies and hard to talk about our 164 00:09:56,836 --> 00:09:59,316 Speaker 5: bodies with ground ups, especially. 165 00:10:00,116 --> 00:10:03,796 Speaker 2: Linda, what did your athlete you coach for many, many years? 166 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:07,356 Speaker 2: What did your athletes get from you as a woman 167 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:09,916 Speaker 2: that they couldn't have gotten from a man? Or is 168 00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 2: that or do you think that there. 169 00:10:11,036 --> 00:10:11,436 Speaker 1: Was no. 170 00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:16,516 Speaker 3: I don't think that they got something from me that 171 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 3: they couldn't get from a man. In fact, there's a 172 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:21,036 Speaker 3: man out here in the audience who I coached with, 173 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 3: who is a fabulous coach and role model for me, 174 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 3: who was very sensitive to the girls, you know, feelings 175 00:10:31,316 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 3: and wishes and dreams. So I don't. The more I 176 00:10:36,756 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 3: think about it, I have to I have to go 177 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:40,636 Speaker 3: back and tell the Martian that we should not We 178 00:10:40,676 --> 00:10:43,436 Speaker 3: don't need to ban male coaches, but we should be 179 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 3: educating them along with women coaches, who, as Lauren points out, 180 00:10:48,476 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 3: are also guilty of a lot of the nonsense that 181 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 3: we're reading about. I mean, you look at the Harvard 182 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 3: ice hockey coach. I mean, every week there's another story 183 00:10:56,516 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 3: about some egregious behavior on the part of a you know, 184 00:11:02,476 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 3: professional coach, and there are oftentimes women too. 185 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:12,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what about this though? The second thing. 186 00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 2: That I took from reading both of your books, was 187 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 2: particularly from Lawrence, was this notion, this idea that I 188 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 2: talked about Bray briefly before, about that you spent a 189 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 2: lot of time on the book that the trajectory of 190 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 2: young men and women is different, and that many women 191 00:11:30,236 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 2: have this kind of in their late teens early twenties, 192 00:11:33,436 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 2: have a kind of performance plateau, and so they observe 193 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:39,476 Speaker 2: the men getting better and better efforts every year, many 194 00:11:39,556 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 2: of them hit a period of a couple of years 195 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:44,196 Speaker 2: where their times are not getting better, in some cases 196 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:47,156 Speaker 2: are going backwards, and that triggers all kinds of. 197 00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:51,956 Speaker 1: What is that does? How do you deal with that issue? 198 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 2: I mean, is it is it? Is there a case 199 00:11:55,596 --> 00:12:00,636 Speaker 2: to be made for some somehow separating out the cultures 200 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 2: of male and female running it out with that age? 201 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 1: So there isn't this. 202 00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 2: Kind of of the women looking at the men and 203 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 2: thinking they should be doing the same. 204 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:10,916 Speaker 5: I think that it's fine to have different experiences. You 205 00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:14,156 Speaker 5: just need the different experiences normalized from day one. Like 206 00:12:14,196 --> 00:12:17,356 Speaker 5: when the coaches are having their conversations with parents and students, 207 00:12:17,716 --> 00:12:20,036 Speaker 5: that's the time to lay out, hey, we have a 208 00:12:20,036 --> 00:12:22,876 Speaker 5: cross country team or track team or basketball team, and 209 00:12:22,916 --> 00:12:25,756 Speaker 5: we are working with thirteen to eighteen year olds, for example, 210 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 5: and female bodies are going to be going through something 211 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 5: that looks more like this, which is like, if you 212 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:32,796 Speaker 5: just look at all the data on performance, really doesn't 213 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:36,276 Speaker 5: matter what the sport is. By age sixteen seventeen, female 214 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:39,636 Speaker 5: gains performance gains on average or like one to one 215 00:12:39,636 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 5: and a half percent. 216 00:12:40,836 --> 00:12:43,876 Speaker 4: Whereas their male counterparts are they go like this, do 217 00:12:43,876 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 4: do do do do? And the female athletes go like 218 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 4: EWW like this. 219 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:50,516 Speaker 5: But we haven't been telling them during that stage of 220 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 5: life that hey, this is temporary. This is like a 221 00:12:53,436 --> 00:12:56,676 Speaker 5: blip in your long term progression, and your prime is 222 00:12:56,716 --> 00:12:58,436 Speaker 5: in your mid to late twenties and beyond. 223 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 4: So really we just need. 224 00:12:59,916 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 5: To Every coach of an adolescent female person should should 225 00:13:04,636 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 5: be telling them, hey, this is going to be part 226 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 5: of your normal progression. More than likely you're going to 227 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 5: have a plateau or even a short term dip. I 228 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:14,796 Speaker 5: will be coaching you through that experience as teammates. You're 229 00:13:14,796 --> 00:13:17,516 Speaker 5: going to be navigating this with your teammates. Some of 230 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:19,036 Speaker 5: you will be on this part of the curve, some 231 00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:20,916 Speaker 5: will you be on this, will be on this. So 232 00:13:21,036 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 5: part of team culture needs to be supporting each other 233 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 5: through that rocky road from day one and not looking 234 00:13:27,236 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 5: at it as a bad thing. 235 00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 4: It's just a different path. 236 00:13:29,316 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 5: Like, is there going to be feelings of disappointment, sure, 237 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:34,596 Speaker 5: you know, and we can make space for that without 238 00:13:34,916 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 5: pathologizing it. And that's what we've been doing, is because 239 00:13:37,396 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 5: we don't recognize that females have this performance wave instead 240 00:13:41,236 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 5: of this performance line when they hit the plateau. 241 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 4: I mean there's parents who have been like. 242 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 5: I sent my kid to a sports psychologist because I 243 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 5: thought they just didn't care enough anymore, or I sent 244 00:13:51,636 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 5: them to a dietician because I thought that they were 245 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:58,036 Speaker 5: their nutrition was sloppy. I'm like, that's just puberty. You 246 00:13:58,236 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 5: just pathologized puberty, you know, Yeah. 247 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 3: But see the trouble. I totally agree with you, And 248 00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:10,396 Speaker 3: yet I think that implies that you coaches have room 249 00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:14,516 Speaker 3: for the time and that athletes are patient and that 250 00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 3: their parents are patient, and at least in my experience 251 00:14:18,076 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 3: with high school parents, of course, many were wonderful. I 252 00:14:21,436 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 3: love them. I always have to say that you said it, 253 00:14:23,556 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 3: good job. But there's this this drive to achieve and 254 00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:32,796 Speaker 3: to get results right away, you know, there's not and 255 00:14:32,876 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 3: if they're plateauing or getting worse than again, like what's 256 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:40,676 Speaker 3: the problem here? And so it is about coaching education, it. 257 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 4: Is, and it's also there's some things we can't change. 258 00:14:43,356 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 5: I mean, sport as we know it was built around 259 00:14:45,316 --> 00:14:48,156 Speaker 5: the male body, so high school sports. We invest a 260 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 5: ton of money in high school sports and college sports, 261 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 5: and that's ages thirteen to twenty two. That's a great 262 00:14:53,436 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 5: time to be a male in sport, right, And that's 263 00:14:56,716 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 5: why they're I'm guessing, so integrated into our education systems. 264 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 5: It's like a and why scholarships are given out based on. 265 00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:06,356 Speaker 4: Who's the best seventeen or eighteen year old. 266 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:09,716 Speaker 5: That's a better predictor for a male body person than 267 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 5: a female body person of what your future potential is. 268 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 5: But the scholarships and that whole system was created long 269 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:20,756 Speaker 5: before female athletes were like up in there asking. 270 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 4: For their share of the scholarship pie. 271 00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:24,876 Speaker 5: But now there's no getting around the fact that seventeen 272 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 5: and eighteen year olds are the ones getting offered the 273 00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:29,996 Speaker 5: scholarships or not. And so that adds this enormous pressure 274 00:15:30,116 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 5: right during development, right during your puberty experiences of change, 275 00:15:35,196 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 5: where you're like, Okay, you're telling me to accept this 276 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:42,916 Speaker 5: temporary state of plateau. But there's a lot on the line, 277 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 5: hundreds of thousands of dollars of scholarship and opportunity. And 278 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 5: if I just restrict my diet, if I fight puberty, 279 00:15:51,876 --> 00:15:55,796 Speaker 5: if I try to aim for this body that I've 280 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 5: been told is the ideal performance body, now, then I 281 00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:02,116 Speaker 5: can give myself a chance to have those opportunities. 282 00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 4: But then you pay the price later. 283 00:16:04,316 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 2: Well, this brings us to the Martian's second point, which 284 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 2: is one that Linda raises explicitly in her book, which 285 00:16:12,396 --> 00:16:15,076 Speaker 2: when I came to that part of Europe, I was like, Amen, 286 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 2: I'm with you on this as both as Malcolm and 287 00:16:18,676 --> 00:16:24,436 Speaker 2: as the Martian. That is it time to pull the 288 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:30,796 Speaker 2: plug on athletic scholarships and preferences. You know, if you're Lord, 289 00:16:30,876 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 2: you're describing this kind of the level of pressure that 290 00:16:36,436 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 2: is brought to bear on the seventeen year old girl 291 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:42,996 Speaker 2: at a time in her development when you can't make, 292 00:16:44,276 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 2: you know, a kind of reasonable prediction about where. So 293 00:16:47,796 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 2: this whole we have this whole system in place that's 294 00:16:50,636 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 2: being driven by the enormous cost of college education, by 295 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,356 Speaker 2: the expectations that come with scholarships. What if we just 296 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 2: ended them. 297 00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 3: I'm all for it, And of course, you know, many 298 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,276 Speaker 3: of the kids going through it now would be like, 299 00:17:03,276 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 3: but wait, that's not fair. I'm you know, that's just 300 00:17:05,996 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 3: what we've been counting on. But you know it would 301 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 3: just if there were no admissions advantage and no athletic 302 00:17:14,196 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 3: scholarship of any kind available to college kids, then it 303 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 3: would it would completely change the way we provide sports 304 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:28,156 Speaker 3: to kids now because there wouldn't be this race, pardon 305 00:17:28,236 --> 00:17:32,516 Speaker 3: the pun, you know, to achieve by thirteen, because you 306 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 3: might all disappear. And also, you know, I love sports 307 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 3: and I'm a runner, and I think they're wonderful. But 308 00:17:42,156 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 3: it's not clear to me why a high school athlete 309 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:50,156 Speaker 3: should get get an advantage over someone who plays the 310 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:52,756 Speaker 3: obo or who's an a choir, Like, why aren't there 311 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 3: special dispensations for them? They don't aren't entitled to special 312 00:17:57,396 --> 00:18:02,716 Speaker 3: scholarships or admissions advantages or streamline admissions process. So I 313 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 3: think it's it would be more fair. I think it 314 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:07,756 Speaker 3: would also be impossible to claud back, or at least 315 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:08,516 Speaker 3: very difficult. 316 00:18:09,116 --> 00:18:11,556 Speaker 5: I love that part of your book though, because I've 317 00:18:11,596 --> 00:18:13,876 Speaker 5: often thought, man, if we could just get rid of 318 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 5: the scholarships, it would release so much pressure on athletes, 319 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:20,076 Speaker 5: especially girls. 320 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 4: I think that the pressures would just go way down. 321 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,476 Speaker 5: We'd be way more likely to allow development and change 322 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 5: to happen on its timeline. But reading your book, I 323 00:18:28,716 --> 00:18:30,276 Speaker 5: was like, oh my gosh, there's this whole other side 324 00:18:30,316 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 5: of it, the whole big business of youth sports that's 325 00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:36,356 Speaker 5: also driven entirely towards that same aim. And as someone 326 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 5: who has a nine year old and a five year 327 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 5: old and i'd like them to participate in sports, I 328 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 5: don't want to be a part of that mania. 329 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:42,036 Speaker 4: I don't want to be. 330 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 5: Having to travel for hours every weekend to give my 331 00:18:46,276 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 5: kids this the top top performance opportunity. I want the 332 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:53,676 Speaker 5: kind of sports that you describe in your book as 333 00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 5: an ideal, and so I am for getting rid of 334 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:59,756 Speaker 5: athletic scholarships. But what had prevented me in the past, 335 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:02,516 Speaker 5: was what would we replace it with? And in your 336 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:05,636 Speaker 5: book you also provide some really great ideas like that 337 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 5: there are other models, and I think sometimes we like 338 00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 5: lack of imaginations helpful to see other ways people are 339 00:19:11,516 --> 00:19:14,236 Speaker 5: doing it. And I can't remember the one that you described, 340 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:15,116 Speaker 5: and you could talk about it. 341 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,596 Speaker 3: I mean, what that would be. No, Well, certainly in 342 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 3: Europe they don't do youth sports like we do it 343 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 3: at all, so you know, there's no school based sports, 344 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:29,596 Speaker 3: it's the after school. It's community based sports. So that 345 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:32,916 Speaker 3: also sets up the whole the college level. And when 346 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:37,356 Speaker 3: when I was running in England, you know there was 347 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 3: there were no teams. It was there were teams, but 348 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:43,156 Speaker 3: it was completely alien to the way we do it here, 349 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 3: and there was no coach. It was like student led, right, 350 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,476 Speaker 3: totally student led. It was probably comparable to intramurals here, 351 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:53,916 Speaker 3: and it was very serious and organic, and I don't 352 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:57,676 Speaker 3: see why that's not you know, replicable here. And I 353 00:19:57,676 --> 00:20:03,436 Speaker 3: think at the college level. You know, another possible suggestion 354 00:20:03,556 --> 00:20:05,356 Speaker 3: I had, which will never happen, is well, how about 355 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 3: if we just abolished college sports as if? But but I 356 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:14,876 Speaker 3: say that, but why not club and intramural. I mean, 357 00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 3: it's not saying kids can't. 358 00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:17,596 Speaker 1: Why not about it? 359 00:20:17,636 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 2: You're talking about intercollegiate sports. 360 00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:25,636 Speaker 5: Like, yeah, well, what's ironic about this is in research 361 00:20:25,676 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 5: for my book, what women had in sports was club 362 00:20:29,876 --> 00:20:35,396 Speaker 5: and intermural before Title nine. But there was a huge discrepancy. 363 00:20:35,396 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 5: Obviously there was no scholarships for us, but there were for. 364 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:39,556 Speaker 4: Men in the n C Double A. 365 00:20:39,676 --> 00:20:43,876 Speaker 5: There was more media, all these things that come with 366 00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:48,276 Speaker 5: that infrastructure from men's sports. We wanted it too, when 367 00:20:48,596 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 5: maybe all along we wanted equality, but maybe they should 368 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 5: have followed our lead. 369 00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 4: Maybe we were onto something. 370 00:20:57,036 --> 00:20:59,356 Speaker 5: Well, when Title nine happened, there was a discussion for 371 00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 5: the first couple of years about will we fold into 372 00:21:01,916 --> 00:21:04,076 Speaker 5: the existing men's programs or will we run our own 373 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 5: show here, Like we've guaranteed we have that the schools 374 00:21:07,716 --> 00:21:10,356 Speaker 5: need to provide the opportunities, don't necessarily have to run 375 00:21:10,356 --> 00:21:12,436 Speaker 5: it exactly like the NC DOBLEA, And it took a 376 00:21:12,436 --> 00:21:15,076 Speaker 5: little bit before the decision was made to join. 377 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 4: The NC Double A. And like essentially one of the 378 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 4: arguments in my book is that we should be recreating. 379 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,596 Speaker 5: Sports with female bodies at the center so that they 380 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 5: can have an equal chance to thrive in the sports system, 381 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:29,356 Speaker 5: and that we kind of need to take it back 382 00:21:29,716 --> 00:21:32,156 Speaker 5: and be able to do that, because giving people the 383 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:34,556 Speaker 5: same thing the exact same way isn't going. 384 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:38,996 Speaker 4: To get you the same results, right. 385 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 2: So how can we level the proverbial playing field and 386 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 2: youth sports that's after the break. I mean, one of 387 00:21:55,956 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 2: the things that's along these lines that I've often wondered 388 00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:04,236 Speaker 2: about it is whether there's an inherent contradiction between designing 389 00:22:04,276 --> 00:22:10,276 Speaker 2: sports programs for the for the fiftile and designing them 390 00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 2: for the ninety fifth percentile, and that maybe those two 391 00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:17,396 Speaker 2: things are in some sense incompatible. So if we do 392 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 2: away with high pressure intercollegiate sports and scholarships and things, 393 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 2: maybe we produce fewer Maybe we don't, but maybe this 394 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 2: chance we produce fewer world class runners she's running as 395 00:22:32,236 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 2: an example, But maybe we also produce way more people 396 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 2: who are happy and contented and run their whole lives, 397 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 2: and maybe we get fewer you know, two twenty five 398 00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:47,356 Speaker 2: marathoners and more two fifty marathoners. I mean, I would 399 00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:49,836 Speaker 2: be happy with that, but you know, a lot there 400 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 2: are some people in the kind of elite sports community 401 00:22:52,716 --> 00:22:54,116 Speaker 2: who consider that a tragedy. 402 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:58,396 Speaker 3: Well, so few kids, not enough kids participating in sports now, 403 00:22:58,436 --> 00:23:00,836 Speaker 3: and I think if we can move the model to 404 00:23:00,956 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 3: try to get more participation. I mean, there was just 405 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 3: an article on the paper yesterday about the income gap 406 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 3: between the wealthy, wealthy families, you know, earning over one 407 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:15,876 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars, seventy percent of those kids play sports, 408 00:23:16,596 --> 00:23:19,916 Speaker 3: and in families earning twenty five thousand dollars in less 409 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:22,796 Speaker 3: thirty one percent play sports. So I think this is 410 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 3: part of the same conversation that the way we have 411 00:23:28,676 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 3: developed the youth sports system, with its high cost and 412 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 3: just relentlessness, has pushed more kids out so that there 413 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:43,436 Speaker 3: are fewer kids, you know, gaining any advantages. 414 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 5: Cross country is one of the ones that I think 415 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 5: has the least access problems, considering that they generally don't 416 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 5: have cuts, and you don't have to have been in 417 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:58,396 Speaker 5: the youth sports high performance pipeline to join a team, 418 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 5: and often you benefit if you haven't. I mean, I 419 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 5: certainly like when I started as a ninth grader running, 420 00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:05,916 Speaker 5: there had been plenty of people in my town had 421 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 5: been running a long time. 422 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 3: And you were not at a disadvantage. 423 00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 4: I was not at all at a disadvantage of anything. 424 00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:12,116 Speaker 4: I felt like I was at an advantage. 425 00:24:12,156 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 5: That's how it was framed to me, because you were fresh, yeah, 426 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:16,796 Speaker 5: and you have plenty of years ahead. It's just like 427 00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 5: making you know, like recognizing this timeline. But with my 428 00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:23,276 Speaker 5: kid interested in soccer, I think I spent five hundred 429 00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:25,476 Speaker 5: dollars for a spring soccer. 430 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:27,196 Speaker 4: Experience for the kid. 431 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 5: He's not even leaving town, you know, so I don't 432 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:31,276 Speaker 5: really understand. 433 00:24:33,036 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 4: He's had one practice. 434 00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:37,396 Speaker 5: He's nine, Like, I don't understand how anyone how people 435 00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 5: are affording this and continuing to do this. 436 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 3: Well, if I can just point out that in my town, 437 00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 3: we have a Junior pre Academy for U fours, which 438 00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:51,676 Speaker 3: is three year olds. What well, it's a junior pre 439 00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 3: academy because then there's also the pre Academy, which is 440 00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 3: for you. 441 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 4: Five like pre k. 442 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,396 Speaker 3: Yes, But so by the time, you know, there's a 443 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,196 Speaker 3: junior peer academy, pre academy, then there's academy and futures, 444 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:06,436 Speaker 3: and then there's travel by the like they've been playing 445 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:08,396 Speaker 3: for six years and they're nine years old, you know, 446 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:12,036 Speaker 3: and at each one it's you know, five hundred dollars 447 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 3: or more, which isn't you know what the problem we 448 00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 3: were talking about with the money and I don't know 449 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:17,356 Speaker 3: how you do that? 450 00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:21,836 Speaker 2: No, the way, So, the biggest obstacle, and you mentioned this, Linda, 451 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 2: and I would like you to be more blunt about 452 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,916 Speaker 2: this because you're being two. The biggest obstacle to the 453 00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 2: kind of de escalation of youth. 454 00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:33,196 Speaker 1: Sports is the parents. 455 00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:38,276 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so, and I'm reminded, you know, anyone who 456 00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 2: has to deal with parent My brother was a elementary 457 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:44,836 Speaker 2: school principal. He's now retired, so I can now say 458 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: this about him. And he loved his job and loved 459 00:25:47,716 --> 00:25:51,516 Speaker 2: the kids. It's just the parents that were and he, 460 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 2: you know, fifty percent I think of his anxiety and 461 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 2: came from parents, not from kids. 462 00:25:59,236 --> 00:26:00,876 Speaker 1: He was prepared for the kids. He wasn't prepared. 463 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:05,076 Speaker 2: And he also had this is very tangential, had this 464 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 2: hilarious riff about how the parent the teachers that the 465 00:26:08,476 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 2: parents think the best teachers are always the worst teachers. 466 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:13,836 Speaker 2: So he was like, not only are they paying the ass, 467 00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 2: they don't know who the good teachers are. It's like 468 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 2: there's something so but I want to so Martian says, 469 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 2: why don't we ban parents from Jati, Well, you can 470 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:25,156 Speaker 2: we give them one. 471 00:26:26,076 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: They can go to one media or one of them. 472 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 1: That's it. They got to kick one and then they're done. 473 00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:32,676 Speaker 3: Okay, Well here's a good model. Is actually the way 474 00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:37,236 Speaker 3: boarding schools do is because they parents don't go to 475 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:41,836 Speaker 3: those because in those sports programs, from what I understand, 476 00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 3: do pretty well and the kids it's pretty healthy between 477 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 3: with the coaches and the players because the parents aren't, 478 00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 3: you know, standing at the chain link fence observing. But 479 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:57,116 Speaker 3: you know, in the absence of that, I think definitely 480 00:26:57,156 --> 00:27:00,156 Speaker 3: restricting the parents is a good idea. And again I 481 00:27:00,196 --> 00:27:01,836 Speaker 3: would like to say I had a lot of wonderful 482 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 3: parents my mom, but they're handful or not great. 483 00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:07,956 Speaker 5: Well, the stuff that you were talking about in your 484 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:13,436 Speaker 5: book about how as parents we get sucked into our 485 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 5: achievement as parents is shown in our kids' accomplishments, and 486 00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:23,116 Speaker 5: that that's a relatively new phenomenon generationally and my parents. 487 00:27:23,156 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 5: My high school coach just retired after thirty years, and 488 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 5: at his retirement party, he again he told me this 489 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:28,716 Speaker 5: all the time. 490 00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 4: He's like, your parents were. 491 00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 5: My favorite parents of all the parents in the thirty years, 492 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 5: because they showed up to the first meeting. They came 493 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 5: to like three to five events perfect. They never once screamed, 494 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:45,956 Speaker 5: you know, and they never told him how to do 495 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 5: his job. They showed up enough, like you say in 496 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 5: your book, to get to know the person who's spending 497 00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 5: crazy amounts of time with your kid. That's important. Get 498 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:55,636 Speaker 5: to know them a little bit, and then get out 499 00:27:55,636 --> 00:27:59,596 Speaker 5: of the way. And truly, like my sport experience always 500 00:27:59,596 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 5: felt like it was mine and that agency, that autonomy 501 00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:06,196 Speaker 5: kind of leaved me to the sport in a way 502 00:28:06,236 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 5: that I think got me through the ups and downs 503 00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 5: a lot better. And like they, I don't know, I 504 00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:15,116 Speaker 5: just I'm like, I was so grateful for my parental experience, 505 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 5: and then wanting to your book was very affirming and like, oh, okay, 506 00:28:19,276 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 5: they were actually. 507 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 4: Doing a good job. So well, I mean, I try 508 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 4: to do it. 509 00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 3: Like how you turned out as a runner. I mean, 510 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:28,116 Speaker 3: you're the fantastic runner, and obviously you know they were 511 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 3: doing something right by just stepping back. 512 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 2: My dad came to in my entire running curtain high 513 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 2: school one event, and he immediately volunteered to help with 514 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:45,476 Speaker 2: the long jump, so he was raking the hit and 515 00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:48,396 Speaker 2: as I was, I will say a modesty that I won. 516 00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:51,116 Speaker 2: This was the Terror Championships I won that day. And 517 00:28:51,156 --> 00:28:54,156 Speaker 2: as I'm rounding the final bend on my way to victory, 518 00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 2: I look into the infield and I see my dad. 519 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:59,956 Speaker 1: He's raking and then he raises the rake and he 520 00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:03,836 Speaker 1: goes go. Malcolm rakes the dad. That was the extent 521 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: of his involvement and I love that. 522 00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 2: But to your point, the thing about them being involved 523 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 2: is that it allows you to also frame your successes 524 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 2: and failures the way you want to frame them, because 525 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:18,196 Speaker 2: the parental frame is very different. 526 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 1: They're much more they're they're far. 527 00:29:21,276 --> 00:29:24,196 Speaker 2: More sensitive, I think in some ways to set backs 528 00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:27,076 Speaker 2: to they don't understand the context in which you're operating, 529 00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:31,876 Speaker 2: the social network that that you're you're competing in. 530 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:35,316 Speaker 3: You know what has really struck me and both as 531 00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 3: a coach and since when I've talked to a lot 532 00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 3: of parents is just how anxious they are. It's all 533 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:43,396 Speaker 3: this anxiety about how their kids are going to turn out, 534 00:29:43,796 --> 00:29:46,316 Speaker 3: which I get, you know, that's what happens when you're 535 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:51,756 Speaker 3: a parent, but somehow it's it's played out in sports. 536 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:54,436 Speaker 3: It's also played out in school. But because sports are 537 00:29:54,476 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 3: so visible, I think you know, your your value as 538 00:29:59,116 --> 00:30:02,956 Speaker 3: a parent is so easily measured by how well your 539 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 3: child does. And you know, I just I've been over 540 00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 3: overwhelmingly impressed by how anxious parents are about it. And 541 00:30:11,036 --> 00:30:14,516 Speaker 3: that's why they're freaking out and you know, complaining and 542 00:30:14,556 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 3: shrieking and you know, trying to get you fired because 543 00:30:19,676 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 3: you know you're not doing enough for your child to 544 00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:24,436 Speaker 3: get that child to the next level. 545 00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 2: Did that did dealing with parents? How much of an 546 00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:35,316 Speaker 2: obstacle is that for people? For coaches continuing to coach, 547 00:30:35,876 --> 00:30:40,916 Speaker 2: deciding to enter coaching, is that constraining our supply? 548 00:30:41,076 --> 00:30:43,236 Speaker 3: Well, I have an important stat here to share as 549 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 3: we were discussing this is accurate too. Fifty eight percent 550 00:30:47,396 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 3: of coaches the per surveyed about five years ago, and 551 00:30:50,636 --> 00:30:52,956 Speaker 3: I'm sure it's gotten worse, said they've thought about quitting 552 00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:58,316 Speaker 3: because of parents. Two thirds of coaches set in a 553 00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 3: more recent survey said parents are always criticizing their child, 554 00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 3: they're criticizing their officials. I mean, coaches are really down 555 00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:10,476 Speaker 3: on parents right now. And it's well, it's interestingly enough 556 00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:13,716 Speaker 3: in this Aspen Institute survey that the parents are like, 557 00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:16,676 Speaker 3: we love our coaches, So there's kind of this weird 558 00:31:17,316 --> 00:31:21,836 Speaker 3: disconnect there. But coaches are really down on parents. 559 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 5: And. 560 00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:27,356 Speaker 3: This is unfair, and I think I so many parents 561 00:31:27,516 --> 00:31:31,676 Speaker 3: are trying to do the right thing and don't want 562 00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:33,436 Speaker 3: to be that parent. I've heard that so many times. 563 00:31:33,476 --> 00:31:39,316 Speaker 3: I don't want to be that parent. But can you 564 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:43,996 Speaker 3: do more? Mile repeats, you know, But I would like 565 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 3: to say though, that there is a time when they 566 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 3: should interject, when they should be you know, not complaining, 567 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:53,876 Speaker 3: but raising talking to the coach or talking to the 568 00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:57,316 Speaker 3: athletic director. And that's when there's some funny business going on. 569 00:31:58,036 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 3: And you know, more the kids, the higher the level 570 00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 3: of athlete the child is, the more elite, the more 571 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:07,276 Speaker 3: likely they are to be emotionally abused and physically abused. 572 00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:12,116 Speaker 3: And I think that's strangely when many parents don't step in. 573 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 3: They raise hell when you know their child is put 574 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:19,236 Speaker 3: in right field. But if there's like just a lot 575 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 3: of nastiness and a terrible team culture, they're quiet as 576 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 3: long as the team is doing well. 577 00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:30,196 Speaker 5: And that's it's intimidating, I imagine, you know, because you're 578 00:32:30,276 --> 00:32:32,756 Speaker 5: like dealing with an expert, you would we tend to 579 00:32:32,836 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 5: assume that they they have a method that's vetted, or 580 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 5: they wouldn't have gotten to where they are well. 581 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:43,156 Speaker 3: And if they're successful in particular, yes, But meanwhile, there's 582 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 3: a lot of tolerance of the terrible things that we 583 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:49,596 Speaker 3: shouldn't be tolerating just because the coach has a great reputation. 584 00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's true. 585 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 2: No, you talk quite movingly and honestly about your own 586 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:59,076 Speaker 2: father in your book, some of the best parts of 587 00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:02,756 Speaker 2: the book. And in the beginning of the book, I thought, 588 00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:07,356 Speaker 2: I thought your father, your father came across as a 589 00:33:07,476 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 2: much less sympathetic figure than he does by the And 590 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:14,716 Speaker 2: and I'm wondering, how do you judge you're the elite 591 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:18,196 Speaker 2: runner here, how do you judge your own parents? Do 592 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 2: you think your father's. 593 00:33:22,596 --> 00:33:23,996 Speaker 1: Role in your life. 594 00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:26,036 Speaker 2: Helped you as a runner, was neutral or hurts she 595 00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:26,596 Speaker 2: as a runner? 596 00:33:27,516 --> 00:33:29,916 Speaker 4: I think that overall he was a really positive force. 597 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:32,476 Speaker 5: He was an alcoholic for people who haven't read the book, 598 00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:35,156 Speaker 5: and he worked really long hours as a prop maker, 599 00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:38,116 Speaker 5: and when he got home there was about a ninety 600 00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 5: minute window where I could catch him sober before he 601 00:33:42,596 --> 00:33:44,676 Speaker 5: would have too many drinks, where I didn't know what 602 00:33:44,836 --> 00:33:47,316 Speaker 5: kind of dat I was going to get. And so 603 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:51,756 Speaker 5: I developed this habit of trying to really get his 604 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:55,356 Speaker 5: attention through excellence during those ninety minutes, because he really 605 00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:59,836 Speaker 5: loved excellence, excellence in everything, music, sports, you know, culture, 606 00:33:59,876 --> 00:34:02,196 Speaker 5: Like he just it lit him up to see people 607 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:06,236 Speaker 5: at their peak doing something incredible. So I wanted to 608 00:34:06,556 --> 00:34:08,836 Speaker 5: have his light on me in that way. So from 609 00:34:08,836 --> 00:34:11,356 Speaker 5: that respect, I can't even really blame him for that. 610 00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:14,076 Speaker 5: That's just one of those childhood things where a dynamic emerges. 611 00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:17,996 Speaker 5: The alcoholism was not ideal. Definitely would have preferred that 612 00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:22,516 Speaker 5: not to be there, but then gosh, throughout my career 613 00:34:22,596 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 5: he was, so he just had It was a constant positive, 614 00:34:27,756 --> 00:34:30,276 Speaker 5: like I always knew I'd be loved and matter what. 615 00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:31,476 Speaker 4: The result was when I came home. 616 00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 5: So even though I like desperately wanted to please him 617 00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 5: and be excellent for him, he never was, Like, he 618 00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:39,236 Speaker 5: never came down on me when I failed. 619 00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:40,716 Speaker 4: So from that. 620 00:34:40,716 --> 00:34:43,636 Speaker 5: Perspective, I just I would like to be that kind 621 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:44,876 Speaker 5: of parent for my kids. 622 00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:47,636 Speaker 1: Wait, the Martian has another question. 623 00:34:47,836 --> 00:34:49,276 Speaker 4: Yes, Martian, this. 624 00:34:49,196 --> 00:34:49,636 Speaker 1: Is the mark. 625 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:59,876 Speaker 2: This is the martians most trivial, frivolous privilege suggestion, although 626 00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:06,796 Speaker 2: maybe not. The Martian says, wonders why given the all 627 00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:13,636 Speaker 2: of the body issues that aflict girls in sports, why 628 00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:16,676 Speaker 2: female runners wear bun huggers and crop. 629 00:35:16,476 --> 00:35:21,396 Speaker 4: Tops, Well, very easy question to answer for the Martian. 630 00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:25,356 Speaker 5: It's because our culture feels that female bodies are there 631 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:32,076 Speaker 5: to be viewed, objectified, commented on, and in order to 632 00:35:32,516 --> 00:35:35,396 Speaker 5: do that, they need to be wearing less fabric and 633 00:35:35,436 --> 00:35:41,196 Speaker 5: tighter fitting fabric. And that is how female athletes got 634 00:35:41,236 --> 00:35:44,076 Speaker 5: their start. Post title nine. Was a movement to make 635 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:47,596 Speaker 5: really this is true, to make up for the fact 636 00:35:47,796 --> 00:35:52,436 Speaker 5: that people would need to be watching inferior performances, and so. 637 00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:54,636 Speaker 4: They needed to be a visual spectacle. 638 00:35:54,796 --> 00:35:59,116 Speaker 5: And that's where the uniform differences came from, and gender 639 00:35:59,156 --> 00:36:02,756 Speaker 5: specific clothing and sport, which, of course women will say 640 00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:04,876 Speaker 5: they wanted. They didn't want to be wearing like a 641 00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:07,836 Speaker 5: men's extra large hoodie necessarily all the time. They wanted 642 00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:11,276 Speaker 5: things that fit and performed, But it took this esthetic 643 00:36:11,316 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 5: angle that was yeah, so that's why. 644 00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:16,556 Speaker 2: I because I was looking I read your book, and 645 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:22,636 Speaker 2: then I was looking at pictures of h I think 646 00:36:22,636 --> 00:36:24,676 Speaker 2: it was not I think some cross country team. I 647 00:36:24,716 --> 00:36:26,836 Speaker 2: forgot which women's cross country team, and all of a 648 00:36:26,876 --> 00:36:28,596 Speaker 2: sudden I was aware of the fact that here are 649 00:36:29,076 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 2: Here were five young women, all of whom had six packs, 650 00:36:33,796 --> 00:36:37,316 Speaker 2: all of whom had not a stitch of fat on them, 651 00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:42,196 Speaker 2: all of whom looked shiny and healthy. And I was like, Jesus, 652 00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:45,596 Speaker 2: that's a high bar for somebody who is not an 653 00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 2: elite Division one runner or someone if I was an 654 00:36:49,836 --> 00:36:53,636 Speaker 2: eleven twelve year old girl thinking about running in high 655 00:36:53,636 --> 00:36:56,076 Speaker 2: school and and I go on line and I see 656 00:36:56,076 --> 00:36:59,596 Speaker 2: that picture, That's what I'm Can we at least just 657 00:36:59,636 --> 00:37:01,676 Speaker 2: wear a T shirt and a bear a bag of 658 00:37:01,716 --> 00:37:04,156 Speaker 2: shorts and just make it just that little bit easier 659 00:37:04,196 --> 00:37:06,196 Speaker 2: on that eleven year old who wants to join in. 660 00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:10,236 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, the thing is that probably only well, I 661 00:37:10,276 --> 00:37:12,876 Speaker 5: don't think a six pack is necessary for high performance 662 00:37:13,116 --> 00:37:17,156 Speaker 5: at all. And there is a fixation with looking the 663 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:20,756 Speaker 5: part more than being the part, and the uniform creates 664 00:37:20,756 --> 00:37:22,596 Speaker 5: that dynamic. I mean that played a huge part in 665 00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:25,036 Speaker 5: my life. Throughout my whole career. It was like, Okay, 666 00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:26,956 Speaker 5: my workouts are good, but like, what do I look 667 00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:29,796 Speaker 5: like in my uniform? I don't look race ready, so 668 00:37:29,876 --> 00:37:31,916 Speaker 5: I'm not race ready. Or the scale doesn't say I'm 669 00:37:31,996 --> 00:37:34,116 Speaker 5: race ready, so I'm not race ready. Ors like those 670 00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:38,156 Speaker 5: are not the most important indicators, not even close. And like, 671 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:41,756 Speaker 5: we have these concepts of race weight that are created 672 00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:45,956 Speaker 5: and perpetuated by men, primarily who have way less monthly 673 00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:51,756 Speaker 5: fluctuation hormonally, and they are being applied to female athletes 674 00:37:51,836 --> 00:37:53,876 Speaker 5: as if we can somehow have a magic number on 675 00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:56,396 Speaker 5: a scale that if we can stay this number, we 676 00:37:56,436 --> 00:37:59,716 Speaker 5: will perform optimally based on physics formulas. 677 00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:01,916 Speaker 4: But that's not how our bodies work. 678 00:38:02,356 --> 00:38:05,756 Speaker 5: And then it creates this very narrow band that you 679 00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:08,476 Speaker 5: have to try to exist in and achieve in order 680 00:38:08,516 --> 00:38:13,196 Speaker 5: to be vsed as elite. And I mean I watched 681 00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:16,236 Speaker 5: it happen on my teams where women who didn't look 682 00:38:16,356 --> 00:38:20,676 Speaker 5: like that were shamed, you know, made to feel like 683 00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:24,556 Speaker 5: they weren't committed enough just because they didn't have the 684 00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:27,356 Speaker 5: six pack, didn't really matter how fast they were running. 685 00:38:27,956 --> 00:38:30,756 Speaker 3: That's your college team. Yeah, because in our town, the 686 00:38:30,876 --> 00:38:33,036 Speaker 3: high school girls wear all those uniforms. 687 00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 4: Yeah. 688 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 3: I just think that's terrible. 689 00:38:35,116 --> 00:38:38,956 Speaker 5: I just think that there's not a performance advantage or 690 00:38:38,996 --> 00:38:40,676 Speaker 5: the or the men and boys would do it. 691 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:45,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's just at the school you at the 692 00:38:45,156 --> 00:38:46,796 Speaker 2: school you coached at. 693 00:38:47,156 --> 00:38:50,676 Speaker 1: So you were coaching girls cross country, did they wear. 694 00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:53,076 Speaker 3: Oh no, there's no way I would have let them. 695 00:38:53,596 --> 00:38:54,716 Speaker 1: Oh, you put your foot down. 696 00:38:55,476 --> 00:39:00,676 Speaker 2: The one of my favorite images of Des Linden when 697 00:39:00,676 --> 00:39:02,076 Speaker 2: she won the Boston Marathon. 698 00:39:02,356 --> 00:39:04,716 Speaker 1: She's wearing those baggy shorts for some reason. 699 00:39:04,796 --> 00:39:07,316 Speaker 2: It's just the whole thing is so fantastic and badass 700 00:39:07,356 --> 00:39:10,476 Speaker 2: and like, I just really so, it's much It's almost 701 00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:15,196 Speaker 2: it's much more powerful emotionally to watch her because she's 702 00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:18,636 Speaker 2: not pretending to be or wearing that uniform. 703 00:39:18,876 --> 00:39:19,876 Speaker 1: She's just sort of being her. 704 00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:22,156 Speaker 4: Yeah, she's just wearing the things she wants to wear. 705 00:39:22,236 --> 00:39:24,996 Speaker 4: Wasn't she also wearing basically a parachute of a running jacket. 706 00:39:26,236 --> 00:39:32,276 Speaker 4: I feel she was learning a jacket. Wow, Yeah, there 707 00:39:32,316 --> 00:39:32,676 Speaker 4: was a time. 708 00:39:32,716 --> 00:39:34,596 Speaker 1: For those of you don't, Des Linden is. 709 00:39:34,516 --> 00:39:39,636 Speaker 2: A very very very very good American marathoner who won 710 00:39:40,276 --> 00:39:42,356 Speaker 2: the year. There was a year that the Boston Marathon 711 00:39:42,596 --> 00:39:46,236 Speaker 2: took place in a gale and the only way anyone 712 00:39:46,276 --> 00:39:49,436 Speaker 2: you could win. I mean it was so nuts that, like, 713 00:39:49,596 --> 00:39:51,116 Speaker 2: the only way you could win is if you were 714 00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:57,116 Speaker 2: the single toughest, most badass and DEAs Linden just sailed through. 715 00:39:57,276 --> 00:39:57,876 Speaker 1: I can't. 716 00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:01,356 Speaker 2: I likely wept the last three miles of that watching 717 00:40:01,396 --> 00:40:03,036 Speaker 2: on TV, I was like, I could not believe how 718 00:40:03,076 --> 00:40:03,716 Speaker 2: emotional it was. 719 00:40:03,836 --> 00:40:07,036 Speaker 5: She broke an incredibly long drought in the event for 720 00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 5: American winner. 721 00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:12,236 Speaker 4: And yeah, and her book's coming out in like a week. 722 00:40:12,276 --> 00:40:13,156 Speaker 1: I think that's right. 723 00:40:13,636 --> 00:40:16,716 Speaker 4: We should do it again with day Yeah, definitely, maybe. 724 00:40:16,476 --> 00:40:17,316 Speaker 1: She'll be running with me. 725 00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:23,716 Speaker 2: I'm like, when we returned, we don't find me a 726 00:40:23,796 --> 00:40:26,676 Speaker 2: running partner, but we do settle on a grand solution 727 00:40:27,076 --> 00:40:38,356 Speaker 2: to fix youth sports once and for all. 728 00:40:38,516 --> 00:40:42,276 Speaker 1: Oh the Martian wonders. So here's the It's really me, 729 00:40:42,396 --> 00:40:44,436 Speaker 1: not the Marshal on this one. 730 00:40:45,116 --> 00:40:50,516 Speaker 2: You know, I ran competitively in high school and stopped 731 00:40:50,716 --> 00:40:52,356 Speaker 2: for thirty five years. 732 00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:53,596 Speaker 1: Let's started again. 733 00:40:54,636 --> 00:40:58,956 Speaker 2: And I stopped because although I was very successful as 734 00:40:58,956 --> 00:41:03,116 Speaker 2: a runner, the pressure I was thirteen and fourteen and 735 00:41:03,196 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 2: fifteen and I found the pressure of racing it grew 736 00:41:07,556 --> 00:41:11,276 Speaker 2: unbearable and I just couldn't do it anymore. And I've 737 00:41:11,516 --> 00:41:16,956 Speaker 2: often and I lost track of how much joy I 738 00:41:17,036 --> 00:41:21,036 Speaker 2: found in running, and got consumed by the fact that 739 00:41:21,076 --> 00:41:23,076 Speaker 2: the only measure of me as a runner was whether 740 00:41:23,116 --> 00:41:25,356 Speaker 2: I could win a race, and that like, and I 741 00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:29,116 Speaker 2: lost out on thirty five years of pleasure as a 742 00:41:29,156 --> 00:41:31,076 Speaker 2: result of this is too bad. 743 00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:32,636 Speaker 1: And now I'm wondering. 744 00:41:35,036 --> 00:41:38,796 Speaker 2: Should we should we since we're banning stuff, lots of stuff, 745 00:41:39,636 --> 00:41:42,796 Speaker 2: should we be should we be banning kind of serious 746 00:41:42,836 --> 00:41:48,076 Speaker 2: competition until I don't know, fifteen or sixteen or something. 747 00:41:48,236 --> 00:41:52,316 Speaker 2: Should we push out the Is there any reason why 748 00:41:52,356 --> 00:41:53,916 Speaker 2: thirteen year old should be competing at. 749 00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:54,556 Speaker 1: The national level? 750 00:41:54,836 --> 00:41:57,036 Speaker 3: No? In my view, Well, you know, I was at 751 00:41:57,036 --> 00:42:00,596 Speaker 3: the Millrose Games about six weeks ago and noticed that 752 00:42:00,636 --> 00:42:03,516 Speaker 3: they had a race for the fastest eight year old 753 00:42:03,596 --> 00:42:06,036 Speaker 3: in the world, and they had these, you know, these 754 00:42:06,516 --> 00:42:11,076 Speaker 3: tiny children lined up and they you know, from different countries. 755 00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:13,916 Speaker 3: I don't know where they came from, but they all 756 00:42:13,996 --> 00:42:18,516 Speaker 3: ran like the same time, like ridiculously fast. And this 757 00:42:18,556 --> 00:42:20,876 Speaker 3: is one you know we're talking about before you mentioned 758 00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:24,076 Speaker 3: various models for doing things we don't need to do 759 00:42:24,156 --> 00:42:28,276 Speaker 3: the national championships at age thirteen and twelve, Like maybe 760 00:42:29,156 --> 00:42:31,476 Speaker 3: in a lot of sports around this country, there are 761 00:42:31,516 --> 00:42:38,036 Speaker 3: these ridiculous championships of like little children, and there's just 762 00:42:38,396 --> 00:42:41,556 Speaker 3: there's no reason for that. And the country that doesn't 763 00:42:41,556 --> 00:42:45,676 Speaker 3: do this is Norway and they have incredibly robust participation 764 00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:49,436 Speaker 3: and then like great success with their athletes after So 765 00:42:49,756 --> 00:42:53,356 Speaker 3: I would tell the Martian. Let's let's forget the championships. 766 00:42:53,716 --> 00:42:55,116 Speaker 3: You know what I was before fifteen? 767 00:42:55,196 --> 00:42:57,476 Speaker 2: Say I did this, I did this recently and I 768 00:42:57,476 --> 00:42:59,396 Speaker 2: can't remember what it was. Fifteen year olds with sixteen 769 00:42:59,436 --> 00:43:03,876 Speaker 2: year olds. Someone made a list of the top English 770 00:43:04,196 --> 00:43:10,396 Speaker 2: sixteen year old male milers, the enemy runners over the 771 00:43:10,476 --> 00:43:14,036 Speaker 2: last thirty years somewhat years, and the question raised was 772 00:43:14,076 --> 00:43:18,116 Speaker 2: how many of them went on to be world class 773 00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:22,356 Speaker 2: adult milers, And the answer was such a small number 774 00:43:22,356 --> 00:43:25,516 Speaker 2: that it was like, You're like, wait, what so if 775 00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:28,356 Speaker 2: we're doing sports at that age, because we're trying to 776 00:43:28,556 --> 00:43:33,076 Speaker 2: identify people who will be talented as adult athletes, it's 777 00:43:33,156 --> 00:43:35,076 Speaker 2: just about the worst predictor of imagine, Yeah. 778 00:43:34,876 --> 00:43:35,516 Speaker 4: It's not working. 779 00:43:36,276 --> 00:43:38,036 Speaker 5: When I was just thinking in this story, like the 780 00:43:38,076 --> 00:43:40,716 Speaker 5: reason why we have the National Championships is for the 781 00:43:40,756 --> 00:43:43,916 Speaker 5: adults exactly, and for the sponsors and the people want 782 00:43:43,956 --> 00:43:46,916 Speaker 5: to make money hosting it and getting the. 783 00:43:46,876 --> 00:43:49,676 Speaker 4: TV rights and all that stuff. It's like, show me 784 00:43:49,716 --> 00:43:50,436 Speaker 4: the eight year. 785 00:43:50,276 --> 00:43:52,276 Speaker 5: Old who's like, you know, I want to raise the 786 00:43:52,276 --> 00:43:55,836 Speaker 5: best eight year olds in the world, Mom, can you. 787 00:43:55,756 --> 00:43:57,676 Speaker 4: Look that upes that exists? Right? 788 00:43:57,836 --> 00:44:04,196 Speaker 2: You know, hold on, let's go to some questions for 789 00:44:04,316 --> 00:44:07,396 Speaker 2: Linda how do you as a coach solve the problem 790 00:44:07,996 --> 00:44:12,356 Speaker 2: that you're more likely to favor the gifted. 791 00:44:11,996 --> 00:44:15,236 Speaker 1: Ones than the not so gifted ones. Is that a problem? 792 00:44:15,316 --> 00:44:17,916 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know exactly. I mean, I think you 793 00:44:17,916 --> 00:44:19,876 Speaker 3: have to be aware of the fact that you may have, 794 00:44:20,676 --> 00:44:22,996 Speaker 3: you know, favorites, And I mean, I would say it's 795 00:44:22,996 --> 00:44:25,636 Speaker 3: more about favoritism because sometimes the best one is not 796 00:44:25,676 --> 00:44:30,836 Speaker 3: your favorite. So I think it's just takes awareness on 797 00:44:30,916 --> 00:44:33,316 Speaker 3: the part of the coach to recognize that it's not 798 00:44:33,316 --> 00:44:38,116 Speaker 3: building the team to to focus solely on the best girls. 799 00:44:38,276 --> 00:44:39,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's hard. 800 00:44:39,196 --> 00:44:42,316 Speaker 2: I mean, Lauren, if I was your high school coach, 801 00:44:42,436 --> 00:44:43,676 Speaker 2: I would be famous. 802 00:44:43,916 --> 00:44:46,476 Speaker 4: Right, I don't know, do you know my high school coach? 803 00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:50,316 Speaker 1: I mean, I know. 804 00:44:50,396 --> 00:44:54,236 Speaker 2: My point is that there's a natural the kind of 805 00:44:54,276 --> 00:44:59,156 Speaker 2: the success of the athlete invariably reflects back in ways 806 00:44:59,156 --> 00:45:01,556 Speaker 2: that it's not always something that's. 807 00:45:01,396 --> 00:45:04,396 Speaker 5: Not always The story didn't make the book, but and 808 00:45:04,396 --> 00:45:05,876 Speaker 5: I'm still a little bit upset about it. 809 00:45:05,916 --> 00:45:06,636 Speaker 4: No, I'm just kidding. 810 00:45:07,476 --> 00:45:11,436 Speaker 5: But my high school coach, he by the time my 811 00:45:11,476 --> 00:45:13,796 Speaker 5: senior year came around, he was getting really swept up 812 00:45:14,116 --> 00:45:17,596 Speaker 5: in the accolades and how it reflected on him. And 813 00:45:18,316 --> 00:45:20,996 Speaker 5: there was some indoor meet that I really we never 814 00:45:21,036 --> 00:45:23,876 Speaker 5: focused on from southern California, like, indoor track is not 815 00:45:24,156 --> 00:45:26,316 Speaker 5: really a thing, but there is this one place that 816 00:45:26,356 --> 00:45:27,796 Speaker 5: you can do it with a wooden track, and so 817 00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:28,796 Speaker 5: we would go and. 818 00:45:28,716 --> 00:45:30,876 Speaker 4: Sort of have a relay every year there. 819 00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:32,916 Speaker 5: But he's like, no, you're gonna run the invitational mile 820 00:45:33,036 --> 00:45:35,716 Speaker 5: and the Invitational two mile. These used to be prestigious 821 00:45:35,756 --> 00:45:38,076 Speaker 5: races twenty five years ago. 822 00:45:37,836 --> 00:45:40,356 Speaker 4: I want to coach someone who wins these races. 823 00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:42,836 Speaker 5: And so we were training over Christmas break for the 824 00:45:42,876 --> 00:45:45,516 Speaker 5: first time ever, like doing these hard workouts in a 825 00:45:45,556 --> 00:45:47,516 Speaker 5: time of year when normally we're just going on fun runs. 826 00:45:47,556 --> 00:45:49,956 Speaker 5: I was not enjoying myself. I was feeling tired from 827 00:45:49,996 --> 00:45:52,116 Speaker 5: the cross country season. And when we got there, I 828 00:45:52,196 --> 00:45:54,556 Speaker 5: ran the first race, did terribly and I was like, 829 00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:56,436 Speaker 5: I don't want to do the second race, and he's like, no, 830 00:45:56,436 --> 00:45:57,876 Speaker 5: you need to do the second race. This is a 831 00:45:57,916 --> 00:46:00,396 Speaker 5: big opportunity. Is like pushing me to do it. And 832 00:46:00,436 --> 00:46:03,516 Speaker 5: I was like, Coach, I'm not your racehorse. And he 833 00:46:03,596 --> 00:46:05,836 Speaker 5: loves telling that story to people who'll start bust out laughing. 834 00:46:05,836 --> 00:46:06,916 Speaker 4: He's like, can you believe that? 835 00:46:07,196 --> 00:46:09,516 Speaker 5: Can you believe she said that to me and then 836 00:46:09,676 --> 00:46:11,716 Speaker 5: but then he apologized in the car later he was 837 00:46:11,716 --> 00:46:14,396 Speaker 5: like it was he actually said, he's like, I was 838 00:46:14,436 --> 00:46:15,316 Speaker 5: getting swept up. 839 00:46:15,596 --> 00:46:16,516 Speaker 4: I was making out me. 840 00:46:16,716 --> 00:46:19,556 Speaker 5: I wanted that, and you never wanted it, and I 841 00:46:19,636 --> 00:46:21,876 Speaker 5: just wasn't listening to you when you were trying. 842 00:46:21,596 --> 00:46:26,316 Speaker 4: To tell me. So it's real. It's a rare pressure, man, 843 00:46:26,636 --> 00:46:27,476 Speaker 4: that's a rare coach. 844 00:46:28,596 --> 00:46:30,156 Speaker 2: So we had a whole series of things we wanted 845 00:46:30,196 --> 00:46:33,996 Speaker 2: to ban. Oh yes, can we So we wanted to 846 00:46:33,996 --> 00:46:36,116 Speaker 2: ban bun huggers and crop. 847 00:46:35,916 --> 00:46:39,556 Speaker 4: Tops around there? What's it man? Around there? I think. 848 00:46:44,476 --> 00:46:45,956 Speaker 1: Parents were banned parents. 849 00:46:46,236 --> 00:46:49,916 Speaker 2: We're banning a competition before fifteen fifteen. 850 00:46:50,036 --> 00:46:51,356 Speaker 1: I think it's a reasonable. 851 00:46:51,796 --> 00:46:53,596 Speaker 3: Realized Christians are okay, just not. 852 00:46:54,196 --> 00:46:56,796 Speaker 2: My running crew was over effectively at fifteen, so you've 853 00:46:56,876 --> 00:46:58,636 Speaker 2: just erased me from. 854 00:46:59,476 --> 00:47:00,636 Speaker 1: I Now I have nothing. 855 00:47:01,316 --> 00:47:03,276 Speaker 2: You know, the amount of mileage I've gotten out over 856 00:47:03,316 --> 00:47:05,236 Speaker 2: the years over my running exploits at the age of 857 00:47:05,316 --> 00:47:07,476 Speaker 2: fourteen is considerable. 858 00:47:08,116 --> 00:47:11,236 Speaker 1: That's now gone. Anyways, I'm fine. I'll take it on 859 00:47:11,276 --> 00:47:12,876 Speaker 1: the champion of the team. 860 00:47:13,116 --> 00:47:15,676 Speaker 2: What's your favorite band of all the bands? If you 861 00:47:15,676 --> 00:47:17,156 Speaker 2: could only do one of those, we can bend the 862 00:47:17,156 --> 00:47:22,636 Speaker 2: parent the Championships, the bun Huggers, and oh and the 863 00:47:22,636 --> 00:47:23,596 Speaker 2: college scholarships. 864 00:47:24,156 --> 00:47:25,516 Speaker 1: I know, my favorite band. 865 00:47:26,876 --> 00:47:29,596 Speaker 5: College scholarships is my favorite band mine. I think it 866 00:47:29,636 --> 00:47:32,116 Speaker 5: would downstream solve a lot of the other problems. They 867 00:47:32,116 --> 00:47:36,716 Speaker 5: could basically neutralize parents most of them. 868 00:47:36,956 --> 00:47:43,396 Speaker 2: Just that expression is so fantastic. Neutralized three parents up 869 00:47:43,436 --> 00:47:46,636 Speaker 2: on stage talking about the virtues of neutralizing people in 870 00:47:46,636 --> 00:47:47,236 Speaker 2: our position. 871 00:47:49,116 --> 00:47:51,516 Speaker 5: Yeah, and then there'd be less motivation to host the 872 00:47:51,596 --> 00:47:53,196 Speaker 5: eight year old World Championships. 873 00:47:53,436 --> 00:47:57,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well here's a good question. 874 00:47:57,956 --> 00:47:59,996 Speaker 2: Does a change in women's girls' sports need to start 875 00:47:59,996 --> 00:48:02,436 Speaker 2: at the grassroots level or we'll have to or are 876 00:48:02,436 --> 00:48:05,876 Speaker 2: we talking something has to happen top down? Can there 877 00:48:05,916 --> 00:48:08,196 Speaker 2: be a can we have a revolution that can change this? 878 00:48:08,996 --> 00:48:10,876 Speaker 1: Or or or do we not? 879 00:48:11,236 --> 00:48:13,796 Speaker 2: Is someone that you talk about it kind of you 880 00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:17,116 Speaker 2: want a czar? You want you wanted Michelle Obama to 881 00:48:17,196 --> 00:48:17,796 Speaker 2: kind of step in. 882 00:48:17,996 --> 00:48:19,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. 883 00:48:19,476 --> 00:48:22,956 Speaker 2: She's so many people have so many czar jobs for her. Yeah, 884 00:48:23,356 --> 00:48:28,476 Speaker 2: it's like Michelle not like basically every intactical problem America has, 885 00:48:28,716 --> 00:48:31,996 Speaker 2: we think oo, William, Michelle. 886 00:48:35,276 --> 00:48:36,756 Speaker 3: I think it has to be both. I know that's 887 00:48:36,756 --> 00:48:38,796 Speaker 3: a bit of a cop out, but Okay, let's start 888 00:48:38,796 --> 00:48:42,476 Speaker 3: with the top though. If we ban the scholarships, that 889 00:48:42,636 --> 00:48:44,716 Speaker 3: is going to have this trickle down effect and it's 890 00:48:44,716 --> 00:48:47,316 Speaker 3: going to you know, permeate all the way down. That 891 00:48:47,356 --> 00:48:50,836 Speaker 3: addresses the larger issues with you sports more than you 892 00:48:50,876 --> 00:48:54,956 Speaker 3: know the ones the specific to girl problems. But I 893 00:48:54,996 --> 00:48:58,076 Speaker 3: think it would transform the whole the whole game. 894 00:48:58,756 --> 00:49:00,556 Speaker 5: And then a similar high level thing I think would 895 00:49:00,596 --> 00:49:05,276 Speaker 5: be mandatory coaching education for anyone working with female bodied athletes. 896 00:49:05,796 --> 00:49:07,916 Speaker 5: I think there's I can't think of a single reason 897 00:49:07,956 --> 00:49:10,356 Speaker 5: why we wouldn't do that with the giant gap and 898 00:49:10,436 --> 00:49:13,316 Speaker 5: knowledge we have. And then everyone, of course should buy 899 00:49:13,316 --> 00:49:15,996 Speaker 5: our books because that'll be the grassroots thing that'll create 900 00:49:16,116 --> 00:49:19,396 Speaker 5: like our own me too moment where you know, I'm 901 00:49:19,436 --> 00:49:20,316 Speaker 5: not standing for. 902 00:49:20,236 --> 00:49:24,276 Speaker 2: It on the on the grassroots thing the thing and 903 00:49:24,956 --> 00:49:27,156 Speaker 2: both of you would have way more knowledge about this 904 00:49:27,236 --> 00:49:30,916 Speaker 2: than me. But am I being overly optimistic if I 905 00:49:31,076 --> 00:49:34,716 Speaker 2: say that this the change is going to happen when 906 00:49:34,756 --> 00:49:39,916 Speaker 2: the girls themselves stand up and just say this is nuts. 907 00:49:39,996 --> 00:49:40,476 Speaker 1: It's like. 908 00:49:42,236 --> 00:49:44,236 Speaker 2: If you're the coach of that team and you observe 909 00:49:44,316 --> 00:49:49,796 Speaker 2: that there are someone's disappeared and no one's really talking 910 00:49:49,836 --> 00:49:53,996 Speaker 2: about why someone's on her third or fourth unexplainable stress fracture, 911 00:49:54,076 --> 00:49:57,156 Speaker 2: someone's beliemic someone and then the person who wins the 912 00:49:57,236 --> 00:49:59,716 Speaker 2: race from the other team is so scarily thin that 913 00:49:59,756 --> 00:50:00,636 Speaker 2: you're worried about her. 914 00:50:00,716 --> 00:50:03,516 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you can normalize anything, just going to say 915 00:50:03,676 --> 00:50:06,316 Speaker 5: in the culture, right, and so yeah, I think, but 916 00:50:06,356 --> 00:50:07,956 Speaker 5: I don't think that it's fair to put it on 917 00:50:07,996 --> 00:50:08,476 Speaker 5: the girls. 918 00:50:08,636 --> 00:50:11,396 Speaker 4: I think that I really think parents, you know, parents 919 00:50:11,436 --> 00:50:13,916 Speaker 4: don't have enough to do if they want to get involved. 920 00:50:13,996 --> 00:50:17,396 Speaker 5: This is how you should get involved, which is like, yeah, like, 921 00:50:17,556 --> 00:50:21,476 Speaker 5: don't stand for it. Can you talk about that about 922 00:50:21,516 --> 00:50:24,036 Speaker 5: stepping in, not being afraid to be the parent that says, no, 923 00:50:24,276 --> 00:50:26,836 Speaker 5: I'm not going to do the extra thing. 924 00:50:27,476 --> 00:50:30,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's funny. In my book, 925 00:50:30,996 --> 00:50:33,236 Speaker 3: I was trying to kind of both understand where parents 926 00:50:33,236 --> 00:50:38,276 Speaker 3: are coming from and also be, you know, offer a critique. 927 00:50:38,316 --> 00:50:42,076 Speaker 3: And I think that it is important that parents recognize 928 00:50:42,076 --> 00:50:44,836 Speaker 3: they have agency that they don't have to go along 929 00:50:44,876 --> 00:50:48,956 Speaker 3: with everything that you know, that extra strength and conditioning 930 00:50:48,996 --> 00:50:55,036 Speaker 3: training or you know, weight workout that might be helpful. 931 00:50:55,076 --> 00:50:58,636 Speaker 3: The supplemental training like the soccer club in my town 932 00:50:58,636 --> 00:51:01,636 Speaker 3: that offers six year olds that they can say no 933 00:51:01,756 --> 00:51:03,316 Speaker 3: to that. It's okay to say no to that. 934 00:51:04,196 --> 00:51:06,156 Speaker 5: And from just the other day, when I drop my 935 00:51:06,236 --> 00:51:08,796 Speaker 5: kid off at the five hundred dollars Spring Soccer Experience 936 00:51:10,756 --> 00:51:13,636 Speaker 5: at practice, I'm very annoyed. 937 00:51:13,876 --> 00:51:16,436 Speaker 4: Wait till you hear this part. I was like, see you, Jude. 938 00:51:16,636 --> 00:51:18,996 Speaker 5: And then one of the parents that I know is 939 00:51:19,036 --> 00:51:20,716 Speaker 5: a parent of another kid in the class, and she's like, 940 00:51:20,796 --> 00:51:25,156 Speaker 5: you're not staying. God, So it makes it tough to 941 00:51:25,276 --> 00:51:27,236 Speaker 5: you know, we're giving each other pressure. 942 00:51:28,396 --> 00:51:29,636 Speaker 3: We're staying at a practice. 943 00:51:29,796 --> 00:51:31,796 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wasn't going to stay and watch the practice. 944 00:51:32,036 --> 00:51:34,436 Speaker 1: God, God, this is what I have to look forward to. 945 00:51:35,236 --> 00:51:39,716 Speaker 2: Wait where someone is waving frantically at me from off stage. 946 00:51:39,876 --> 00:51:42,916 Speaker 2: But I so we got to end soon. But I 947 00:51:42,996 --> 00:51:47,316 Speaker 2: wanted to fill the runners out there. I wanted to 948 00:51:47,356 --> 00:51:50,116 Speaker 2: get to toss them a bone. And someone asked this 949 00:51:50,236 --> 00:51:53,156 Speaker 2: question of you, Lawrence. Since you're you're a you're running. 950 00:51:53,356 --> 00:51:54,756 Speaker 2: It's so rare that we get to hang out with 951 00:51:54,796 --> 00:51:58,516 Speaker 2: like it's fun. But I'm still bitter about not getting 952 00:51:58,516 --> 00:51:59,196 Speaker 2: to go running with you. 953 00:51:59,276 --> 00:52:01,796 Speaker 1: But because you know what, I'll tell you why I 954 00:52:01,836 --> 00:52:02,356 Speaker 1: was looking for. 955 00:52:04,116 --> 00:52:04,796 Speaker 4: It's not too late. 956 00:52:04,836 --> 00:52:07,916 Speaker 1: What are you doing this? This is the thing. 957 00:52:08,956 --> 00:52:11,756 Speaker 2: The those of us who are just kind of every 958 00:52:11,796 --> 00:52:15,316 Speaker 2: day runners when we run with people who are at 959 00:52:15,316 --> 00:52:15,836 Speaker 2: your level. 960 00:52:16,196 --> 00:52:18,676 Speaker 1: You guys, Floatt, and. 961 00:52:18,596 --> 00:52:21,036 Speaker 2: We're running and you look over and you're just sh 962 00:52:22,436 --> 00:52:25,396 Speaker 2: and it's like magic. It's like watching a magician do 963 00:52:25,516 --> 00:52:28,876 Speaker 2: a trick, right, And you're like, oh my god, you're 964 00:52:28,876 --> 00:52:30,756 Speaker 2: not even you're not breathing. 965 00:52:30,396 --> 00:52:33,636 Speaker 1: And not like you're just you're touching the ground and 966 00:52:33,676 --> 00:52:34,996 Speaker 1: you're like, how is this happening? 967 00:52:35,396 --> 00:52:39,196 Speaker 5: That sounds like you're an intellectually curious person. Most people 968 00:52:39,316 --> 00:52:40,516 Speaker 5: are like I'd like, I'm like, do you want to 969 00:52:40,596 --> 00:52:42,876 Speaker 5: run with me? They're like, oh no, no, no, I 970 00:52:42,916 --> 00:52:44,596 Speaker 5: would never do that. I'm like, I promise I'll run 971 00:52:44,636 --> 00:52:45,956 Speaker 5: the pace you want to run, and they're. 972 00:52:45,836 --> 00:52:47,036 Speaker 4: Just like, no, definitely, right. 973 00:52:47,156 --> 00:52:48,796 Speaker 2: Well, the question this is really for the two of you, 974 00:52:48,836 --> 00:52:51,316 Speaker 2: and then we really do have to stop. What did 975 00:52:51,356 --> 00:52:56,716 Speaker 2: you guys like the most about parathon training? And you start, 976 00:52:56,756 --> 00:52:58,316 Speaker 2: and then we'll let laurd boy. 977 00:52:58,276 --> 00:53:00,036 Speaker 3: It's a thousand years ago that I ran. 978 00:53:02,036 --> 00:53:03,876 Speaker 2: If I had one two forty nine, I would have 979 00:53:03,916 --> 00:53:08,156 Speaker 2: a T shirt that said, all right, so like willia 980 00:53:08,196 --> 00:53:08,836 Speaker 2: own horn here? 981 00:53:09,236 --> 00:53:09,436 Speaker 4: Yeah? 982 00:53:09,436 --> 00:53:13,836 Speaker 5: And in super shoes, I'd be like two thirty. 983 00:53:12,876 --> 00:53:17,396 Speaker 3: Right, Oh, you're right. You know, I had a great 984 00:53:17,396 --> 00:53:22,316 Speaker 3: group to train with, and the training is the fun part, 985 00:53:24,276 --> 00:53:28,236 Speaker 3: not always, but it's the camaraderie that I got in 986 00:53:28,276 --> 00:53:31,196 Speaker 3: the marathon training and you're out there a long time. 987 00:53:31,916 --> 00:53:34,716 Speaker 3: So for those, you know, the training runs were kind 988 00:53:34,756 --> 00:53:37,036 Speaker 3: of fun to do too, you know, when they weren't miserable. 989 00:53:39,556 --> 00:53:42,236 Speaker 5: I didn't have a group, but I did get to 990 00:53:43,196 --> 00:53:46,596 Speaker 5: have my professional coach, Mark Roland at organ Track Club Elite. 991 00:53:46,916 --> 00:53:47,836 Speaker 4: I had always had him in. 992 00:53:47,836 --> 00:53:50,236 Speaker 5: A group setting and I was the only one doing 993 00:53:50,236 --> 00:53:52,276 Speaker 5: a marathon and that's normally the time year I did 994 00:53:52,276 --> 00:53:54,516 Speaker 5: in New York when track and field athletes are taking 995 00:53:54,516 --> 00:53:56,916 Speaker 5: a break, and so I had him to myself and 996 00:53:56,956 --> 00:53:59,636 Speaker 5: he would ride his bike alongside me and we got 997 00:53:59,676 --> 00:54:02,356 Speaker 5: to have all these really nice chats, and like, I 998 00:54:02,476 --> 00:54:04,756 Speaker 5: just loved that was the last year we worked together, 999 00:54:04,956 --> 00:54:05,316 Speaker 5: so to. 1000 00:54:05,316 --> 00:54:08,116 Speaker 4: Have that, I have a lot of fond memories from that. 1001 00:54:08,556 --> 00:54:08,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1002 00:54:09,156 --> 00:54:11,676 Speaker 2: I think that's a lovely way to end because it's 1003 00:54:11,716 --> 00:54:14,756 Speaker 2: a reminder we've been talking about what's wrong with running. 1004 00:54:15,276 --> 00:54:17,196 Speaker 2: And the thing that I always try and tell young 1005 00:54:17,236 --> 00:54:20,476 Speaker 2: people when I try to get them to become runners, 1006 00:54:20,596 --> 00:54:24,316 Speaker 2: is that this thing, the camaraderie stuff is something that 1007 00:54:24,516 --> 00:54:27,556 Speaker 2: is just magical, Like going on a long run with 1008 00:54:27,596 --> 00:54:30,356 Speaker 2: a group of people who you are friends with, are 1009 00:54:30,356 --> 00:54:32,716 Speaker 2: close to, and you've worked out with before. There's there's 1010 00:54:32,756 --> 00:54:34,836 Speaker 2: something there that you'll never find anywhere else. 1011 00:54:34,876 --> 00:54:39,276 Speaker 5: It's yeah, and I think that that love, like that's 1012 00:54:39,316 --> 00:54:41,876 Speaker 5: what drove our books. It's like when you know that 1013 00:54:42,196 --> 00:54:45,076 Speaker 5: you have something worth fighting for and protecting, and we 1014 00:54:45,116 --> 00:54:48,276 Speaker 5: really just want to remove a lot of the garbage 1015 00:54:48,316 --> 00:54:50,676 Speaker 5: that's getting in the way of that, right. 1016 00:54:51,076 --> 00:54:54,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you so much to the two of you, 1017 00:54:54,956 --> 00:54:58,436 Speaker 2: and thank you to all of you, and go get 1018 00:54:58,516 --> 00:55:06,836 Speaker 2: you go buy your books and get them some. This 1019 00:55:06,956 --> 00:55:10,156 Speaker 2: episode of Revisionist History was produced by Sam and Giesto 1020 00:55:10,196 --> 00:55:14,356 Speaker 2: with Kiara Powell, Bendadapfh Haffrey, and Jacob Smith. Fact checking 1021 00:55:14,396 --> 00:55:19,436 Speaker 2: by Kishell Williams and Tally Emlin. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. 1022 00:55:19,676 --> 00:55:23,516 Speaker 2: Original scoring by Luis Qira, mastering by Sarah Bruguier, and 1023 00:55:23,636 --> 00:55:27,476 Speaker 2: engineering by Nina Lawrence. Special thanks to the ninety second 1024 00:55:27,516 --> 00:55:31,556 Speaker 2: Street Why crew and my panel of potential running partners 1025 00:55:32,156 --> 00:55:34,956 Speaker 2: Lauren Fleishman and Linda Flanagan. 1026 00:55:35,996 --> 00:55:36,876 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glappa.