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Speaker 1: Quody doors, but Joseph's gotten more. The old adage once

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Speaker 1: bitten twice shy holds a different meaning when you consider

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Speaker 1: that most of the time, as a death investigator, you

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Speaker 1: get one shot at what you're doing. You can make

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Speaker 1: decisions over the course of your career that not only

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Speaker 1: have a certain cringe factor to them relative to the

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Speaker 1: decisions that you made as a death investigator, but can

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Speaker 1: impact family members and even local citizenry based upon that

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Speaker 1: choice that you made as a government official moving forward.

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Speaker 1: That will change the dynamic the landscape of how people

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Speaker 1: view not only your office, but death investigation overall. Some

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Speaker 1: of these decisions remain with us, and like everybody out there,

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Speaker 1: I have a couple over the course of my history

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Speaker 1: that have in fact haunted me and still haunt me

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Speaker 1: to this day. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.

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Speaker 2: All right, So right out of the box, if you're

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Speaker 2: going to tell me, Joe that there is something that

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Speaker 2: haunts you to this day that happened while you were

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Speaker 2: in the course of your job, you have something like

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Speaker 2: that even now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, still to this day, and it was it's

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Speaker 1: kind of one of these I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: can actually call it an anomaly, but i'd say that

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Speaker 1: it is. And if you want me to run it

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Speaker 1: down to I'll run it down to you very briefly.

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Speaker 3: Here and it's actually now I need you run it

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Speaker 3: down for me. It's not a one, it's a need.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. I got a call to a

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Speaker 1: private residence. This is when I was still working in

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Speaker 1: New Orleans. And I can't recall if I've told the

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Speaker 1: story before, but it doesn't matter. Well, I'll tell it

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Speaker 1: for the purposes of kind of illustrating what we're about today.

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Speaker 1: I got a call, and this was very early on

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Speaker 1: in my career. I was young and did not have

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience, and had a guy that had

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Speaker 1: drowned in his swimming pool. Now, it's a weird thing

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans down there because everything's below sea level.

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Speaker 1: I would say that you have more above ground pools

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Speaker 1: than you do below ground pools because we're below selete

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Speaker 1: sea level. But this was a rather large in ground

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Speaker 1: pool where I had a gentlemen that lived next door

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Speaker 1: to the owner of the pool. This fellow crossed over

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Speaker 1: into his neighbor's backyard and jumped off into the deep

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Speaker 1: end and drown himself. Okay, now here's kind of where

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Speaker 1: one of the problems arises. This gentleman that decided to

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Speaker 1: take his life was an Orthodox Jew, and you don't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of Orthodox Jews in the Deep South.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, if you go to New York and

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Speaker 1: go the Diamond District, you can walk around town. You'll see,

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Speaker 1: you know, you'll you'll see people that are in that lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: that dress in a very particular way. Well, this gentleman,

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Speaker 1: you know, he had the ringlets.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He always wore a yamica and see I think he

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Speaker 1: was involved, uh in the antique business in New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: And there's if you've ever been to the French Quarter,

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Speaker 1: there's a street everybody thinks about Bourbon Street. There's a

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Speaker 1: street called Royal Street. And Royal Street has antique shops

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Speaker 1: that are renowned worldwide. You have European antiques on the street,

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Speaker 1: and of course they're valued more so than they're probably worse,

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Speaker 1: but their face fascinating walking. And I think that that

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Speaker 1: was his business, if I remember correctly. But he was

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Speaker 1: having trouble in business and he went to great links

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Speaker 1: in order to facilitate his death. Obviously, I don't if

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Speaker 1: I remember correctly, didn't own a firearm. And he was

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Speaker 1: wearing a heavy black overcoat, okay, which in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: and I'll never forget. This was in the late spring,

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Speaker 1: which is brutally hot in New Orleans. He took five

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Speaker 1: pound plates from bench press that he had in his

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Speaker 1: garage and put multiple of these in the deep pockets

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Speaker 1: on the outside of his trench coat and went fully

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Speaker 1: closed and jumped into the deep end of the pool

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Speaker 1: and drowned, facilitated his own death. Didn't leave a note

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. Well, as time went by, we

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Speaker 1: finished the investigation, the family obviously showed up and they said,

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Speaker 1: where what are you going to do with the body?

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Speaker 1: Was there, you know, a vehicle here from the corner,

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Speaker 1: And We're like, well, we're going to go back. We autopsy,

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Speaker 1: you know, suicides, that's what we do. Because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: here to witness it. You don't have a doctor that's

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Speaker 1: going to sign a death certificate. It's actually going to

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Speaker 1: fall to us as the corner We are, in fact

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Speaker 1: the certifier of death. And so that's what we do.

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Speaker 1: And with that task upon us, we have to examine

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Speaker 1: the body and they raised forty kinds of hell over.

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Speaker 1: They got their attorneys involved. We did take the remains

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Speaker 1: back to the shop. And since he was Orthodox, and

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Speaker 1: many people are not aware of this, they have a

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Speaker 1: kind of this indwelling principle. And I'm probably gonna get

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Speaker 1: this wrong, but you have to be buried by sundown,

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Speaker 1: and many people don't realize that, and it's it's a

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Speaker 1: big deal, you know, particularly in the Orthodox community. Well,

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Speaker 1: we really served the pot because we were holding him,

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Speaker 1: this was in the morning. We were holding him, you know,

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Speaker 1: over over a long night, and we had I know,

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Speaker 1: it was an own slaught of attorneys. There had to

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Speaker 1: be three, and I get it, you know, I've been

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Speaker 1: involved in cases where I would have one or two,

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Speaker 1: but this was three. And we wound up, to our

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Speaker 1: great shame releasing his body the next morning directly to

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Speaker 1: the to the funeral home of the family's choice. And

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Speaker 1: never even drew blood on this guy, period. We never

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Speaker 1: even took his clothing off. I think we may have

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Speaker 1: snapped some photos and he was buried. Six months go

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Speaker 1: by and we get sued. I have to go in

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Speaker 1: and give a deposition. The pathologist has to go in

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Speaker 1: and give a deposition. That was on call. The corner

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Speaker 1: had to go in and get a deposition. And the

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Speaker 1: big question in the deposition is why didn't you do

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Speaker 1: your job? You know, you have the force of law

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Speaker 1: behind you, and it was the family that rote the lawsuit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, that's the shocking thing about it. If you

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Speaker 1: don't know. Right now, I'm staring into Dave's eyes and

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Speaker 1: he has a look of shock, and so yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so when I say once bitten, twice shy, I would

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Speaker 1: rather let's see the adage of dying on this hill

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily apropos. But I will I will fight

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Speaker 1: tooth and nail to do everything that I have to

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Speaker 1: do in order to not just look out for the family,

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Speaker 1: but the continuity of an investigation. So I appreciate and

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Speaker 1: I respect your religious views perhaps and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: try to honor them as best we can. However, you

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Speaker 1: have to look at this very much more broadly. First off,

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Speaker 1: no one witnessed this. They found him at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the pool. He was in financial trouble, and there

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Speaker 1: was some indication per the police that there was some

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Speaker 1: sketchy events that surrounded his business practice. And you take

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Speaker 1: all that in total and you think, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the guy's fully clothed, he puts plates, five pound plates

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Speaker 1: into the pockets of his overcoat. I don't know about you, David.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I could break the surface in a

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Speaker 1: ten foot pool with all of that hanging off of me,

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Speaker 1: soaking wet, trying to drag myself up to the top.

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Speaker 1: So how did Yeah, it is, so how do we

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Speaker 1: know that somebody didn't stick something in his pockets and

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Speaker 1: push him off into the pool. It's just a you know,

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Speaker 1: and I know that many naysayers would probably say, well,

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Speaker 1: what are the odds that that would happen. Well, there

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Speaker 1: are odds and things like that have happened. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's the thing about medical legal death investigation, Dave. You

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Speaker 1: truly get one shot at at what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: or or where you can determine the course of the future.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like stepping up to the plate in baseball,

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Speaker 1: where you're trying to prove yourself and you get one

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Speaker 1: shot against a really premier picture. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: adhere to the basic understanding of what you've learned as

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Speaker 1: a batter, uh, you're going to run into problems and

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Speaker 1: we know these we know these problems because they've happened

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Speaker 1: elsewhere and from a variety of sources. It can either

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Speaker 1: be families that decide that they don't want to note

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Speaker 1: and look, all I have to do is point at

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Speaker 1: Tammy Davell. Remember her she got carried across state lines

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Speaker 1: and buried in Utah as opposed to there having been

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Speaker 1: an autopsy and David that wound up being a homicide.

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Speaker 1: So you can see where this can get train wrecked

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Speaker 1: really really quickly. And you really ask these questions, who

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Speaker 1: who makes these decisions, Who's going to make these decisions

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Speaker 1: about that terminal diagnosis, who's going to have the authority

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Speaker 1: to sign off on the terminal diagnosis? Because even if

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Speaker 1: you have somebody that say, for instance, things appear to

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Speaker 1: be natural, if you don't have an attending physician, and

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Speaker 1: for those for our friends that don't know when anytime

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Speaker 1: you're involved with a corner of medical examiner and you

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Speaker 1: have somebody that dies and there what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: and this is an actual industry term called unattended death,

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Speaker 1: and unattended can mean a lot of things. That can

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Speaker 1: mean there was no one with them than they when

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Speaker 1: they died or it has been used to say they

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Speaker 1: didn't have a physician. Well, guess who the de facto

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Speaker 1: physician is at that point in time. It's a certifier

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Speaker 1: of death. It's going to be the corner slash medical examiner.

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Speaker 1: And so that individual has to make a decision as

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Speaker 1: to what the cause and manner of death is going

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Speaker 1: to be. And if you do not do it, at

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Speaker 1: minimum an external examination where you take the clothes off,

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Speaker 1: photograph the body, draw vitreous fluid out of the eye,

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Speaker 1: draw urine directly out of the bladder, which you can

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Speaker 1: do externally, draw heart blood directly from the a order,

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Speaker 1: which you can do externally, and you submit all of that.

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Speaker 1: At least you have that baseline, and you do a

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Speaker 1: total body examination externally and you do X ray. But

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Speaker 1: sometimes that doesn't even get you know, Dave, I've actually

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Speaker 1: worked with corners over the course of my career, and

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Speaker 1: this is one of my biggest, biggest things. I never

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Speaker 1: like to bury bodies with bullets in them. And you

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Speaker 1: will have people that will work suicides, and somebody will

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Speaker 1: self inflict a gunshot wound or shoot, you know, to

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Speaker 1: the head or to the chest, and the projectile want

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Speaker 1: to exit, and they will bury that body with a

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Speaker 1: bullet in the body. And I think that that is egregious,

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Speaker 1: absolutely egregious, because you're talking about a real traumatic event.

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Speaker 1: And I can't tell you how many times I've given

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Speaker 1: talks or have been places where somebody would say, well,

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Speaker 1: it's obviously a suicide, why do you need to do

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Speaker 1: an autopsy? Or they died in a car accident, why

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Speaker 1: do you need to do an autopsy? Well, car accidents

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Speaker 1: become many times vehicula homicide or negligent homicide. Suicides sometimes

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Speaker 1: turn out to not be suicides. They turn out to

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Speaker 1: be something else, or in the case of Tammy Davell,

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Speaker 1: sometimes things that appear to be natural turn out to

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Speaker 1: be wholly something else, and in her case, homicide. So

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Speaker 1: you're left with this big question that winds up going unanswered.

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Speaker 1: And guess what, once you place that body in the ground,

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Speaker 1: or once you place God help you, that body into

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Speaker 1: a crematory, all of the evidence is gone. Dave Of

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Speaker 1: of course, my career now in academia, which, believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, my hair is as gray as yours. I've

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Speaker 1: been I've been in academia now as long as I

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Speaker 1: was a death investigator. I'm twenty years on so as

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Speaker 1: a as a professor, and I have kids that have

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Speaker 1: come up to me year after year and they will say,

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Speaker 1: Professor Morgan, tell me what you did. Tell me how

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Speaker 1: do I do for a living? What you did? And

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Speaker 1: the first thing I always tell them is, think about

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Speaker 1: doing something else. Go be fingerprinted at analysts, Go be

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Speaker 1: a DNA person. That's a really cool job. Man. But still,

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Speaker 1: you know, they get that, they get that twinge and

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Speaker 1: they want to become a death investigator. Or they'll say,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back home in my little rural

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Speaker 1: county and run for corner. I want to be a

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Speaker 1: corner full time and know they don't get paid a

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Speaker 1: lot of money for that. And no, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to be a physician, Sarily, you know a corner.

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Speaker 3: Can I ask her about this? Go?

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Speaker 1: Yes, sure, all right.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know this until a friend of mine ran

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Speaker 2: for corner in a county and I thought, I like him.

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Speaker 2: He's a nice enough fella, but I wouldn't let him,

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Speaker 2: you know, put a band aid on a kid. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's not a medical mind. And anyway, he ran for

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Speaker 2: corner and I for the life, and we couldn't figure

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Speaker 2: out why. I still to this day don't know why

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Speaker 2: he did, because they not qualified at all, no medical training,

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Speaker 2: no medical background.

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Speaker 3: He just ran for the office because he could.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, that's not even a real thing, but

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Speaker 2: it is. In some areas, people don't have to have

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Speaker 2: any kind of background at all to serve. Please tell

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Speaker 2: me there's a difference between what we call a corner

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Speaker 2: and a medical examiner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, semantics, there's.

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Speaker 1: A different No, No, it's not semantics, And there's a

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Speaker 1: real there. There is a definitive line with corners and

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Speaker 1: you and listen, I'm not I'm not detegrating in any way. Corners.

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Speaker 1: I love corners. I've got a lot of friends that

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Speaker 1: are corners. However, the standard for a corner in most

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Speaker 1: locations is completely different than that of a medical examiner.

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Speaker 1: And just to briefly break it down, I think we've

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Speaker 1: done a previous episode on it, but we do have

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Speaker 1: form and function relative to this episode because something has

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Speaker 1: occurred in the news that we need to discuss with

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Speaker 1: corners as kind of a refresher. Dependent upon the state

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Speaker 1: that you're in, there's little or no educational requirements some states.

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Speaker 1: There are some states that still only require ged to

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Speaker 1: run for the office, and you can't be a felon okay,

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Speaker 1: thank god. Wow, And you have to be a resident

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Speaker 1: of the county for a prescribed amount of time. You

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Speaker 1: have to be above a certain age. Most places it's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it's like twenty six or something.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a valid state driver's license, and

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Speaker 1: then dependent upon the state, you may or may not

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Speaker 1: go to what referred to as a corner academy. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've taught at corners academies all over the country, and

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Speaker 1: I've taught at police academies. I teach death investigations still

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Speaker 1: to this day at police academies, just to give young

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Speaker 1: cops a taste of what we do in the medical

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Speaker 1: legal world, trying to understand manner and cause of death

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Speaker 1: and how we id bodies and recognizing certain trauma. However,

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Speaker 1: you know, police go through a rather lengthy police academy,

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Speaker 1: you know, and just to become kind of a baseline

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Speaker 1: law enforcement practitioner, and that doesn't necessarily exist with corners.

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Speaker 1: So it's going to be hit or miss relative to

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Speaker 1: the state that you're in as to what the training

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Speaker 1: requirement is going to be and what your capabilities are. Now. Look,

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Speaker 1: I have had corners that I have come across that

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Speaker 1: are probably some of the finest death investigators I've ever encountered,

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Speaker 1: people that have these really solid medical legal backgrounds. They

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Speaker 1: may have been nurses, by the way. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: I think that nurses probably make the best medical legal

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Speaker 1: death investigators anywhere. In my recent hospitalization, I was talking

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Speaker 1: to three young nurses that came into the room, by

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Speaker 1: the way, and Kim had to remind me of this

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Speaker 1: because I was on so many narcotics. She said, all

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Speaker 1: three of these young nurses came into the room and

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Speaker 1: they wanted to talk to you, but you were on

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Speaker 1: medication and they all listen to bodybacks. Oh wow, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I know. And the only thing I remember

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Speaker 1: telling them is, nurses make the best death investigators because

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Speaker 1: you're all naturally nosy people. Wow, that is the truth.

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Speaker 1: The thing is about it.

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Speaker 2: Now, I understand why you have the red cap and jacket.

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Speaker 2: In case Kim walks in, You're just Santa the white

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Speaker 2: white hair.

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Speaker 3: They're just sitting in my lap. We're talking Christmas presents.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 1: You know, nurses they have to ask questions all the

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Speaker 1: time and listen, they deal with trauma obviously all you

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Speaker 1: got to do is walk into any emergency room, but

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Speaker 1: you know the time, they deal with natural deaths day.

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Speaker 1: That's what they're dealing with in hospitals. Whether they work

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Speaker 1: in a private doctor's office or whether they work on

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Speaker 1: a med search floor and surgery or wherever it is,

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Speaker 1: they're primarily dealing with natural disease pathology. And that's what

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Speaker 1: makes them such great medical legal death investigators. And for me,

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Speaker 1: if I have somebody that has that inquisitive mind, has

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Speaker 1: a baseline of medical knowledge, you can train them with

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Speaker 1: all of the forensic ins and outs, you know what

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Speaker 1: trace evidence and fingerprints and all that other stuff that

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Speaker 1: we do, and even even blood examination at the scene,

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Speaker 1: the dynamics of blood flow and all of that that

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Speaker 1: can be trained. But it's really hard to find somebody

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Speaker 1: a clinician that you know is going to show up

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Speaker 1: and are a layperson's going to show up and has

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Speaker 1: that clinical background. Paramedics great make great medical legal death

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Speaker 1: investigators as well. So with that said, here's here's something

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Speaker 1: that I want to throw out at you, and this

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Speaker 1: has to do with what we're talking about today. Out

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Speaker 1: of all of these practices that I've kind of mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and what happens relative to a death investigator and what

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Speaker 1: you need to show up. I can tell you what

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Speaker 1: you did not, Dave have on your BINGO card. You

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Speaker 1: didn't have lawyer.

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Speaker 3: No, I didn't have any of those.

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Speaker 2: I've learned way too much today that I wish I

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Speaker 2: didn't know. There's things I'm not going to be able

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Speaker 2: to forget that I really like to that are actually

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Speaker 2: legal in this country that I'm gonna be honest, if

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Speaker 2: it was a third world nation where they still had,

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Speaker 2: you know, a doctor feel good living in a cave

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Speaker 2: that passes, I would expect it from them, not us.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Well, as it turns out, you know, we've got a

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Speaker 1: case and this kind of caught my eye, and it's

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Speaker 1: involved in a gentleman who I believe is like fifty

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Speaker 1: six years old.

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Speaker 2: Dave, Yes, fifty six. His name, his name is Pete.

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Speaker 2: That's what his family calls It's not his real name.

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Speaker 2: His real name is like Pedco, ped pedtoe, pe dt o,

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Speaker 2: oh okay, not pedro pedtoe.

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Speaker 3: And he never went by that. They called him Pete.

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Speaker 3: But when you got a name like Pete.

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Speaker 2: And you live in Omaha, Nebraska. You're fifty six years old.

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Speaker 2: You're talking to your sister on the phone, planning a

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Speaker 2: road trip to Arkansas.

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Speaker 3: That you do every year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to go visit family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and everything's fine, you know, everything's fine. And then

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Speaker 2: in less than a week, going from Sunday to Monday,

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Speaker 2: I mean, in a seven day period of time, to

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Speaker 2: go from that to being wheeled out on a gurney,

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Speaker 2: something's not right, Joe. You don't just drop dead of

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Speaker 2: natural causes at fifty six like that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think, well, well, let me pauseh you because yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are a number of people over the years,

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Speaker 1: and I've worked them, where people will have these certain

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Speaker 1: cardiac events. But he's he's on the upper end of

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Speaker 1: that area where you're starting to get a little bit

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Speaker 1: beyond that, and then you would expect somebody to have

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Speaker 1: an m I. But I'm sorry, a mile cardial infarction.

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Speaker 1: It's a fancy it's a fancy term for a heart attack.

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Speaker 1: Heart attack is not something that physicians use unless they're

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Speaker 1: talking to families. They'll say, well, yeah, he had a

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Speaker 1: heart attack, and that way they're not going to have

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Speaker 1: to go down the road and explain all of the

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Speaker 1: clinical stuff. They'll talk about how he had a blockage

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Speaker 1: and part of the heart muscle died, which is what

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Speaker 1: an infarcted area in the heart is. But you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: we don't even we don't have that to make a

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Speaker 1: diagnosis with this with Pete. Okay, we because the corner

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Speaker 1: in Nebraska, who by law, is not merely a corner

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Speaker 1: there county attorney. Now it comes down this law is

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting because you can have a prosecuting attorney,

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Speaker 1: you have county attorney, and county attorneys many times are

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Speaker 1: for folks that don't know and you've never worked in government.

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Speaker 1: The county gets sued all the time. So the county

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Speaker 1: actually has legal representation and they become a de facto coroner,

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Speaker 1: or it's not de facto, they actually are the corner.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like a major Well, first off, it's

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Speaker 1: a huge conflict of interest because you you begin to

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Speaker 1: think about you think about the awesomeness of is that

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Speaker 1: actually good word you're talking about, Joe, Well, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about death, yes, and being a.

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Speaker 3: Rule that it's look, you don't like somebody. Hey, that's

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Speaker 3: not a natural depth.

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Speaker 2: I think Dave mac somehow put air in that guy's

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Speaker 2: blood pain.

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Speaker 1: H yeah, I mean yeah no. And and so you're

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Speaker 1: with no training or little or no training. And what's

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00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: amazing about this office is that now we're talking in

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Speaker 1: the greater Omaha area. You were thinking, Omaha is, you know,

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Speaker 1: has a lot of deaths, they have homicides, you know,

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Speaker 1: as as any larger city would. But you begin to

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Speaker 1: think about this and you think, so, how does this work.

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Speaker 1: You're the corner and you're going to certify death. You're

395
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Speaker 1: going to list, You're gonna list manner and cause death

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Speaker 1: and make a scientific determination relative to that, and it

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Speaker 1: extends out. It's it's amazing some of the numbers that

398
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: were kind of floated out. They are way beyond the

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Speaker 1: national average relative to the number of autopsies that this

400
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: autopsy that this office involves itself in. And then as

401
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: you move westward in Nebraska, you're going to you're gonna

402
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: get down to like I think it's like one percent

403
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: in some of these counties where autopsies are never performed,

404
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: and that means that you have a lot of bodies

405
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: that with the depth disposition, not deposition disposition of the

406
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: bodies where you're making pretty broad assumption scientifically about what

407
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: was the manner and cause of death. And listen with

408
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: with Pete. You know, he's found days later, he's deceased

409
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Speaker 1: in his home and is found dead there and the

410
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: family has no answers whatsoever. And the family even asked,

411
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Speaker 1: they said, are you going to do an autopsy?

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Speaker 2: No?

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00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: Well, can we at least have a private autopsy done,

414
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: which means that you got and you hire a uh

415
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist or a hospital pathologist, which would generally happen,

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00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: and you would pay for it. And sometimes the cost

417
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: of these things is it's rather steep. You know. I've

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Speaker 1: seen private autopsies, and again a lot of it depends

419
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Speaker 1: upon how involved they are. I've seen them be upwards

420
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: a couple of thousand bucks. I've seen them, you know,

421
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: in the fourteen hundred dollars range. A lot of it

422
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Speaker 1: is dependent upon where you are, the access, what access

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Speaker 1: do you have to a pathologist, and if they're willing

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00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: to do it. Hospital pathologists, contrary to what people think,

425
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 1: don't like to do autopsies. You know, they examine tissue

426
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: that comes in from surgery. Autopsies, they're trained to do them.

427
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Speaker 1: But it ain't their bag most of the time, you know,

428
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Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like a forensic pathologist who

429
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: spends their life, you know, in the autopsy suite, doing

430
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Speaker 1: autopsy after autopsy, and that's how they build up these

431
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Speaker 1: huge numbers. I mean me alone, I'm you know, I'm

432
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: just this guy. And I participated and over seven thousand autopsies.

433
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: I was physically there in the room as autopsies are

434
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: being done, and you know, around them, assisting, taking notes,

435
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: doing all the stuff that you do associated with autopsies.

436
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: I was like working in a factory, or It's almost

437
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: like you expect to have a car come by the

438
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: needs its doors put on.

439
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: You put the doors on, check the heart.

440
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: But the way they checked that exactly. I've walked into

441
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: an autopsy suite early in the morning and had bodies

442
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: lined up literally. I can remember being a State Medical

443
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: Examiner's office in Georgia and I was assigned out there

444
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: for eight very eight or nine very very very long

445
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: months and walking in and having I know that I

446
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: know there were a couple of days we did twenty

447
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: autopsies in one day, and those are all in varying

448
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: degrees of trauma severity, or complications relative to natural deaths,

449
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: and so it requires a key eye, it requires somebody.

450
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: Now you have the county attorney slash DA that's actually

451
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: the person who is the certifier of death. And let's

452
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: just couple that with the idea that if you are

453
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: if you are a let's just say you're a prosecutor.

454
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: Think about this just for a second. You're the prosecutor

455
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: and you're also in charge of the examination or certifying

456
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: to death because obviously the attorney is not going to

457
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: do the attorney slash corner is not going to do

458
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: the autopsy. You're going to have a pathologist's that's hired

459
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: by them to do it. But the pathologists yet they're

460
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: going to sign off on it. But it's going to

461
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: be up to the corner what the manner and cause

462
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: of death is. Do you see? I mean? And I

463
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: think most people can can appreciate what a conflict that is.

464
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: That's like if you go to well, we were talking

465
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: about Tammy just a moment ago to Tammy Davell. I

466
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: talked about her like she's on a first name basis.

467
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I got to know her over those

468
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: years and we were covering the case. But you know,

469
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: with Utah, thank god they went from Idaho to Utah

470
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: because Utah has a state medical examiner. There are no corners, Okay, so.

471
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: There's just one guy that's over all of it or.

472
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they'll have it broken down in districts. Utah

473
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: is a big place. Yeah, you know, so they might

474
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: have satellite like down in Saint George's maybe in Utah.

475
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: And then of course you got Salt Lake City in

476
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: a variety of places, and they're going to have people

477
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: that do the autopsies there. They're board certified forensic pathologists.

478
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: You go to New Mexico, for instance, which is a

479
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: fine example. They are a state Medical Examiner's office, no corners,

480
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: and the State Medical Examiner's Office is actually managed by

481
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: the State Health Apartment. And that makes sense. I mean,

482
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: it truly makes sense because most of the deaths that

483
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: you're going to certify are going to be naturally. You

484
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: go to Oklahoma. You know, Oklahoma is a non corner state.

485
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: You know it has it has you know, it has

486
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: a state medical examiner. But you go north to go

487
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: to Kansas. You hit Kansas, Well, buddy, Kansas is a

488
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: corner state. Nebraska is corner state. South Dakota corner state.

489
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: North Dakota is a corner state, Montana corner state, Wyoming,

490
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: corner state, Colorado corner state. So you can go down

491
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: the list. Then you get to these kind of anomalous

492
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: places like California, and people go on and on about

493
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: how progressive California is and all these sort of things.

494
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: Did you know in a lot of places in California,

495
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the corner and the sheriff are one and the same. Yeah,

496
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: So you think about that, You think about that, and

497
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: how bizarre that is. So you know, back to Pete

498
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: in Nebraska, you're thinking, well, that's that's not that's not surprising,

499
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: you know when you put it into that context, you know,

500
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: and listen, this is nothing new under the sun day,

501
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was. I might get this

502
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: day wrong. Prior to the Civil War. This is how

503
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: far back this goes. Did you know the state of

504
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: Maryland they first had a statue that was written up

505
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: and it's the first time they had corners. They no

506
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: longer have corner in Maryland. They have state Medical Examiner.

507
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: Matter of fact, I think that's where doctor Zumwalt was

508
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: and he was one of the finest, finest forensic minds anywhere.

509
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: But anyway, back in eighteen sixty they saw the need

510
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: back then to say, you know what, we need to

511
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: bring a physician in to consult. Wow, all right, that's

512
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: all idea. That's eighteen sixty, Dave once the year I

513
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: lose track. It's twenty twenty five, twenty twenty five. We're

514
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: in George jetson time.

515
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: Now.

516
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: You know, we're supposed to have flying cars and we

517
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: still have these weird amalgams and you you know, you

518
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: go all around the corner of the states and things

519
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: are so kind of out of why you go to

520
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: Texas and the justice of the pieces the corner, you know,

521
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: and so you have all of these oddities. Now certain

522
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: things have evolved. You know, Tennessee, for instance, has gotten

523
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: rid of corners. You know, the corner is this final

524
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: this final person, you know, is the final ruler.

525
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: Uh.

526
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, look at what we're dealing with with Ellen

527
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: Greenberg right now. Okay, But because you know, with with Ellen,

528
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: they had they had stated that I think in one

529
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: of the early rulings in this case that listen, state

530
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: can't tell the medical examiner how to rule.

531
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: Okay, they cannot compel him to change his.

532
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: Decase they cannot come. No, this is not a law

533
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: enforcement entity. It's a separate entity there, okay. And you

534
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: are dealing with the Philly Medical Exam which is interesting

535
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: because Pennsylvania is one of those states that has both

536
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: medical examiners and corners. It's a weird, so you'll you'll

537
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: get these kind of weird, weird mixtures that are all

538
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: over the place. You know, you got to You go

539
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: to Ohio, for instance, Cuyahoga County. I think that's Cleveland,

540
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. They have a medical examiner. But

541
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: you can go other places and I have corners. You

542
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: go to New York again, a state that's so so progressive, right, Well,

543
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: they have the OCME in New York City, but there's

544
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: there's a hell of a lot more to New York

545
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: than just Manhattan, and you know New York City itself,

546
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: they've got corners all over the state. But you go

547
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: to Virginia, and Virginia the state medical Examiner system. They

548
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: no longer have corners there, so it's kind of hit

549
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: or miss. And with Pete's family and Nebraska, you sit

550
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: there and you think, well, what's left for him? What's

551
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: left for him, where do they go? And of course,

552
00:33:47,520 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: unfortunately for them, they don't have too many choices. There's

553
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: a term that kids use nowadays. My college students have

554
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: used it for a number of years. I don't feel

555
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: comfortable because I'm not quite hip enough to do it,

556
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: but I like the term, and it says, I'll hauler

557
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: back up and with with Pete Chapel in in Omaha.

558
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: That's what he was. That's what he was known for, Dave.

559
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: He he had a catchphrase where he would say, I'll

560
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: holler at you later, and he was known for this.

561
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: He was He was beloved by his family members who

562
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: cared deeply for him. He lived. He lived in public

563
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: housing called the Underwood Tower there in Omaha. And here's

564
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: what's interesting, uh Dave Uh. Pete was found dead on

565
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: a welfare check back on July of the third of

566
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and the police report notice I didn't

567
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: say corner report. The police report stated that there was

568
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: enough foul play and the police report stated that he

569
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: died of natural causes. Now, I don't know about you,

570
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: but the question I would have is what qualifies a

571
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: police officer to say that an individual died of natural

572
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: causes sounds to me like any corner that you have

573
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: you can just kind of, you know, throw that out

574
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: the window. You don't need a corner, You'll just call

575
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: You'll call the local constabulary, local cops that have just

576
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: come out of the academy or whatever the case might be,

577
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: and have them make the ruling. I mean, because that's

578
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: what it comes down to, and there is a high

579
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: there is. I guess maybe as far as probability goes,

580
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: there's a chance that maybe Pete died of natural causes.

581
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: How soon after he entered that apartment did he in

582
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: fact pass away? But you know, Pete's death is horrific

583
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: relative to the family because these things, at least in

584
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: my estimation, will never be put to rest. There are

585
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: critical moments that we come across in forensics death investigation

586
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: where we have to be brave enough to make a

587
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: decision to sally forth into maybe the protests of a

588
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: family or getting past what's inconvenient for you. I look

589
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: back and I reflect upon that young man all those

590
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: years ago, when I pull that man out of the

591
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: bottom of that pool, and I think that if I

592
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: had had the intestinal fortitude at that moment in time

593
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: and had stood full face against the family and be

594
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: as respectful as I could and said no, we're gonna

595
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: go ahead and do an autopsy. Six months later, I

596
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been deposed along with everybody else that was

597
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: involved in the case. In the office. Sometimes you just

598
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: have to go with science and make a strong decision

599
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: and make sure that you're trained up in the right

600
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: way so that when it comes down to it, you

601
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: can do the most important thing of all, and that's

602
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: provide answers to not just the family, but the general public.

603
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks