WEBVTT - Just B Dating: PART 1 - THE Attachment Expert, Dr. Sarah Hensley 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.120 Nice to meet you, very nice to meet you. I'm 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.079 a pretty big fan, so, oh, thank you. You're like 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.000 the holy Grail of women entrepreneurs. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.040 Oh well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. So 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.560 I found you on social media. And you do sort 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:32.720 of like these therapy snippets on relationships in the car 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.120 and you have a practice, you have patients. I do. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:38.280 I have clients. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.000 I'm a relationship coach and I've been running my practice 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.240 now for about four years. So it's been a real 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.559 blessing and a real joy. I was in academia before that. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.840 I was the director of a clinical psychology program at 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.040 a university, and so I did that for a number 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.240 of years and taught in psychology. So what is your training. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.720 My training is in social psychology. So a lot of 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.160 people are not familiar with that because it is a 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.160 smaller part of the discipline. So about thirty three percent 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.400 of the discipline is clinical psychology and they deal with, 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.480 you know, severe mental illness, and then we have the 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.400 rest of us who are specialized in different areas of psychology. 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.720 So social psychology is just really the study of human interaction. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.520 So I am basically a researcher in human behavior expert 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.240 in romantic relationships, So I study relationships from kind of 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.120 a scientific point of view, and then I went into coaching, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.960 which is just fundamentally kind of a different avenue than therapy. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.160 It's really focused on the science and then results, you know, 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.319 and being very prescriptive and results oriented, versus kind of 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:43.679 like processing and discovery, which is a lot more of 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:44.640 what therapy is about. 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.720 Okay, So my question is, so you talk a lot 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:55.680 about attachment, attachment disorder, all the different attachment styles, and 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.440 I think we're in the era of like a designing 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:06.400 certain labels to people that you're in a relationship with. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.600 Because for the first time ever, I heard someone talk 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:17.480 about personality types in order to find matches, like and 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.160 there's this personality test that I thought was amazing online 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.120 that I took, my friends took that was spot on. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.480 I was the protagonist, shocking someone else. I knew the 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.640 woman who runs my company is the commander, which was 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.600 perfect and like, but the description is really amazing, and 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.840 this is going to sound like it's belittling the rest 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.840 of this. But I also do now look at someone's 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.800 astrological sign. I don't live in this anymore than I 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.280 live in what you talk about, which is attachment styles. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.919 But I do think there's something to all of it. Actually, 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.680 I think there's something to the personality types. I think 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.600 there's something to the attachment styles, and I do think 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.079 there's something to the astrological signs, for example, and then 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.680 the love languages, like all these things. So let's just 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:05.960 talk about all these things and how someone could sort 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.320 of boil this down because, for example, let's say you're 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.480 let's say you want to lose weight, and you're going 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.080 to be like, I'm going to do the eat right 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:14.640 for your type, your blood type, and to get my 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.520 blood taken because someone said that, but someone else said macrobiotic, 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.280 but someone else said carb and keto and look, so 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.440 it's like hard to know how to be educated and 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.240 then also not be debilitated by trying to figure out 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.320 all these things that also could freak someone else out. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.640 Sure, absolutely, I completely understand where you're coming from, and 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.200 I definitely agree with you. And I think from my 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.960 point of view as a scientist, I think the place 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:39.640 that I like to look is just going to the 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.080 science and seeing how credible it is and seeing how 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.560 long the theory has been around, how much you know, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.720 validity and reliability you know, comes with whatever assessment you're 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.400 you're taking. And the thing that I love about attachment 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.560 theory is that it's been around since nineteen fifty eight, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.520 and so far nobody's been able to falsify that theory, 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.440 and so we have so much evidence that has built 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.000 since that time time that attachment style is very predictive 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.240 of people's behavior inside of relationships. And so when we're 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.720 taking an assessment or where we're putting a label on something, 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.160 my first instinct is to just go, Okay, well, what's 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:12.560 the scientific evidence behind it? 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:12.760 Right? 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:14.360 Is this something that somebody just kind of like made 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.680 up and it sounded good and it was clickbait on 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.240 the internet, or is this something that has validity to it. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.200 And so we do have a lot of really great 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.280 measurements out there for things like personality and attachment, and 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.240 differentiating between those things I think as a lay person 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.599 is hard because attachment really functions at the level of behavior, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.720 whereas personality is more ingrained into who you are. And 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.280 so we have, you know, somebody who has say attachment 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.600 wounds that's triggered by a lot of their external environment, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.200 whereas personality characteristics are inherent to the person and might 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.680 be displayed across different situations, right where attachment's really just 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.320 going to show up inside of the romantic relationships. So 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.520 I think for everybody out there on social media, you're 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.719 definitely getting hit with so many things at once, and 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:03.839 it is hard to differentiate between, you know, what's really 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.520 valid and what's just kind of maybe some kind of 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.160 something that's going around TikTok right now, that's that's popular. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.640 Well, it makes sense that you are saying a personality 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.560 test could talk about where you're gonna be like in business, 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.200 or what you're going to be like in friendships or 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.240 different situation, or if you go away on a reality 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:23.680 show or something, what you're going to be like in 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.960 that group. But an attachment style is going to present 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:32.880 itself based on intimacy and communication and connectivity. So you're 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:37.280 going to see that arise there. That's that's definitely interesting, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.400 and so how much you know there's the one that 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.599 it seems like you talk about the most is dismissive 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.919 avoidant because it seems to be a problematic one that 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.400 people are bumping up against. And to back this up, 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.200 years ago, it was actually Cia this musical artist who 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.200 brought up attachment theory to me, and I didn't even 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.800 know what she was talking about. And I understood it 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.919 to be the way you attached with your parents, and 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.159 it could be as young as being a toddler, but 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.839 it could be older based, and it doesn't have to 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.800 mean you had a dysfunctional childhood by most people's standards. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.720 You could have a life like mine, which is dysfunctional 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.440 by everyone's standards. But you could be a person where 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:18.680 your parents were together for fifty years, but they're very 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.440 cold and there was no feeling and they never really 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.280 gave you any kind of love, and you felt like 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.240 you had to sort of there were conditions to everything, 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.520 and so that can sort of translate into modern day. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.080 There could be many different shapes and sizes to this. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.320 Yes, absolutely, you hit the nail on the head completely. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.640 A lot of the clients that I have, honestly don't 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.800 recognize their own attachment trauma, so especially dismissive avoidance. A 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.840 lot of the neglect that they experience looked very benevolent. 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.360 So it might have been like a mom being like, oh, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.320 you're fine, calm down, you don't. 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:52.000 Need to be so upset. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.520 You know that mom was very well meaning to just 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.800 try to gain some emotional control with her child, but 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.839 essentially she's also passing along the message, hey, your emotions 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.080 are not welcome here, and the display of emotions when 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.520 you have big emotion inside of you. 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:06.800 Isn't like a good thing to do. 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.320 So when that's repeated over and over and over again 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.080 in those small benign or benevolent looking ways, it can 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.680 cause someone to suppress emotion over time and to really 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.600 internalize things and to cope with things within themselves or 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.160 even dissociate from things, which is really what happens with 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.240 the dismissive avoidant. They suppress all of their emotions, and 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.760 because they're not in touch with their own emotional experience, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.120 they get very overwhelmed by other people's emotional experiences, which 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:45.200 is a real block to intimacy. 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.840 I think what you're saying is that someone is just trained. 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.320 It's like a dog that's trained to do the same 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.720 thing every time, and it's very hard to untrain a dog. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.520 So this is a person who's trained that there's a 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:04.520 siren that goes off when intimacy or connectivity happens, and 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.960 they literally dismiss and avoid where It might seem good 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:09.760 in the beginning because there are no stakes, but as 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.880 the stakes get higher, they dismiss and avoid. And you 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.360 talk about that a lot because that is very difficult 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.480 to intervene in and retrain. And so what does that mean? 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.320 You just give that dog back to the breeder? Like, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.400 how do you Because I've been in relationships with people 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.160 like this and you kind of do want to give 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:27.600 that dog back to the breeder, But what do you 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.440 say to that person, like that poor person who can 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:31.280 help themselves? 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.839 Yeah, the DA is just it's they're so hard because 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:39.040 their major wound is around effectiveness, which is essentially brought 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.880 up by criticism or even just perceived criticism. They don't 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:43.720 actually have to be being criticized, they just have to 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.760 perceive that they're being criticized. And so if you come 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:47.120 to them and you're like, hey, I think you have 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:52.240 this dismissive avoidant attachment, immediately they're going to feel defective, criticized, 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.920 and that is attached to so much internal shame, and 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.360 then they go into their suppression and their avoidance right 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.640 to cope with that internal shame. So they're not going 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.880 to age with you, and those kinds of conversations around 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.000 personal growth and development. For them, that's insanely triggering, and 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.400 then they use their old tactics of just suppressing and avoiding, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.400 and so it's hard to actually even engage them in 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.040 conversations about hey, I think we you know, you might 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.120 benefit from understanding this about yourself, or that our relationship 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.360 could benefit from you understanding this about yourselves. From what 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.120 I have experienced, the best way to be able to 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.320 talk to a dismissible avoidant about the need for them 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.640 to maybe explore emotional development is, hey, you know, I 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.000 came across this really cool science about attachment, and I 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:34.560 think I know what my attachment style is. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.440 I'm interested to see if you know what it is. 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:37.800 And so they kind of see it as like a 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.000 little bit almost of like a game of discovery, and 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.400 that's when they go, oh, I think I'm a dismissible avoidant. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.200 And then we usually have two roads. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:46.840 We have somebody that kind of has a light bulb 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.400 moment and they go, oh, well, I really want to 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.400 be with you and so maybe this is something I 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.480 need to work on, which is usually people with more 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.880 mild dismissible avoidance. And then we have the more severe 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:58.600 people who are like, well, you know what I am? 0:09:58.880 --> 0:09:59.600 I am who I am. 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.000 That's like famous tagline for the da as I am 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.240 who I am, and you can lend me like this 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:04.160 or not or leave. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.280 Oh I've heard the middle. I haven't heard that. I've 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.280 heard the well, I've heard the middle, because they go 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.800 highs and lows. These people go low and then they 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.400 think they can change it. But the next day it's 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.520 a new day and that's over. And I've also I 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.679 think this is the if this was a sign, I 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.839 would call this the biggest gas lighting sign. This is 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.560 a gas lighting sign because again they want to avoid 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.560 and if they dump something on you, you can avoid 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.360 doing it. If it's on you, they don't have to 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.440 do it. So this is literally a dog I would 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.720 give back to the breeder. But if you're married to 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.400 this person, how do you cope with this? And then 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:39.880 we can get into the other styles too. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.920 The only thing I have ever seen work for dismissive 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.760 avoidance is really strong boundaries, because they have really strong 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.800 boundaries around their behavior, their time, what they're willing to give, 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.320 and so inherently they might push back against it, and 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.360 on the surface they're like Ooh, I'm not getting my way. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.839 But deep down at that subconscious level, which is really 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:58.959 driving the ship, they're like, man, I respect that, right, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:00.920 like I respect people who can say no, I'm not 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.360 giving that or I'm not doing that right. So they 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.880 kind of view people who self abandon and who are 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.440 a needy as weak. Yes. And so when you hold 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.000 a really strong boundary with the DA and they realize 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.200 I don't get access to this person unless I give 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.360 a B and C or meet their needs, that sense 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.359 of loss can be what causes them to stop suppressing 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.520 so much, because the pain of the loss can't be 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.440 suppressed to the degree that they need it to be 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:27.480 in order for them to sort of move on and 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.640 get over it. So if they really love somebody and 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.960 that person throws up some really strong boundaries, oftentimes that 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.880 is what it takes for them to come out of 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.840 their avoidance, start being able to access the feelings that 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.320 they have for their partner, and make some decisions that 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.920 they're going to honor the boundaries of their partner and 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:46.640 making some strides towards change. 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.640 So let's talk about the other styles I mine. Is 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.640 is there an anxious avoidant? What is the anxious anxiousness. 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.400 So there's a lot of terms that have been used 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:02.840 for what moderns fearful avoidance. Yeah, and it's been called 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.760 in the past anxious avoidance or disorganized attachment. So those 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.600 people have both an anxious side to their attachment and 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.600 an avoidance side to their attachment. Yes, me, odd's what 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.520 I was too, And you know I have. I've worked 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.640 really obviously, worked really hard on it, but you know, 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.320 it never completely goes away. It's more of a learning 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.520 to be aware, to catch, to correct, to make sure 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.280 that you're sort of always on top of it. There's 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.040 no like triggers completely going away for the rest of 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.800 your life. There are going to always be those trigger 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.200 moments and you have to be able to learn to 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.360 identify and cope with them. But for fearful avoidance, they 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.240 really have wounds around betrayal because there was some dysfunction 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.880 in their childhood. They usually had one or more parents 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.480 that had enough problems going on where they looked at 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.719 their parent and they were like, yeah, you can't love 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.120 me in a way that feels good to me, Like 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:52.000 you have X, y Z other problems issues deficits going on. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.640 So we usually see this in parents that maybe have 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.800 a substance abuse disorder, or parents that have a mental illness, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.960 or parents that you know, go through a really awful 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.760 divorce when their child is younger, or you know, something 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.760 of that effect. We have parents that are highly consumed 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.560 with some other issue that's causing them to behave in 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.080 an emotionally dysfunctional way, and the child witnesses that, even 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.400 if it's not directed towards the child, oftentimes they're witnessing 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.480 it in the marital relationship of their parents, and so 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.880 they really imprint this idea that love is unsafe, love 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.600 is hurtful, people will betray you if you get close 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.680 to them, and so ultimately they sort of develop this 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.960 very disorganized strategy of trying to get intimacy where their 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.760 need for connection is really strong, but it's always sort 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.960 of competing with their desire to avoiding. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.520 Which one is that that's anxious attached. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.640 That's the fearful avoidance, that's like the modern term for it. 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.480 But what about the disorganized one? 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:46.440 So that's the same. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.600 So there's oh, fear several different terms attached to it 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.640 over the years, and I think the most probably the 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.679 most up to date term is fearful avoidance, but a 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.080 lot of peop use those older terms and so it 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:57.960 can get confusing. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.920 Okay, so fearful avoidant. So for me, it's sort of 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.280 like a zero sum game. So I'm like in and 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.680 I'm connected, but if I sense any sort of danger, 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.840 I'm fully out. Yeah, that's sort of it. I feel 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.400 safe until I don't, and that's like not a gray 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.760 and the healthiest way is But that's actually you can 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.120 intervene in that because I've gotten to a point over 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.520 Just like learning, there are things that dating people on 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.800 here have told or psychologists have told that you learn 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.200 that you can like mix into the recipes. So, for example, 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.400 there are a couple of things that I believe and 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.480 have learned. So one is that men are equally as 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.040 insecure as us, and I think that women don't really 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.840 believe that. So if you believe that a man is 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.720 equally as insecure, you'll then go respond to something or 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.640 come reach out to someone that you normally wouldn't, thinking 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.280 that there has to be some version of it, Like 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.160 they reach out, you reach out back, they reach out, 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.880 you reach out back. You do a little extra because 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.359 you're someone said to you that they're just as insecure. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.960 And I said on a previous podcast that you know, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.760 it's been a man's world for so long, for generations, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.120 that it's not going to be a crash diet of 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.920 us all of a sudden, just like believing that it's 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.040 both a man and a woman's world, even though we 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.400 see proof of that. So the dynamic comes up in dating, 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:34.880 not even about fearful avoidant or any of this stuff, 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.400 just in normal dating every day we believe that the 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.680 men are holding the cards, short of like boobs and 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.720 like you know, holding out for them, Like that's just 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.480 sort of basic. I just mean, like we believe that 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.880 men are holding the cards. So therefore, even if a 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.120 man is not that attractive, we believe we should give 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.520 them a cookie for doing something so basic because we 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.520 are not we don't have an equilibrium with that. So therefore, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.600 if someone doesn't respond to you, you want to basically 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.760 say in some subtle way, fuck off, like not responding 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.040 like you'd have respond I'm insecure, I'm going to go retreat. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:09.720 Yeah. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.120 Absolutely, And I think there's a real dynamic where in 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.440 this culture too, we kind of view men as being 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.880 like the ones that have all the power, and that 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.840 have the power to destroy their relationship as well. Right so, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.320 because they do hold all the cards. And I think 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.440 there is some truth to that, because if more men 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.240 tend to be dismissive avoidant and dismissive avoidance act as 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.400 dictators and relationships, they do. They dictate when you talk, 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.560 how much you talk, what you talk about, what the 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.120 intimacy is, you know, how much quality time you have. 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.800 They dictate all of it in a relationship. And eighty 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.000 five percent of dismissive avoidance are men, right so, and 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:45.640 a man. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.360 A dismissive avoidant with money is a lethal combination because 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.359 I had. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.200 It because a very well off dismissive avoidance, and it 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.960 was a nightmare because they they because he who makes 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:56.840 the goal makes the rules. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.360 And this is why I tell women to begin with, 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.520 just to make money work, you put it in a 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.880 hole and not even use it, but you have it there, 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.720 and you know you have it there because it affects emotion. 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.119 So a man who's a dismissive avoidant who has money 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.240 is he's running the program. He who makes the gold 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.879 makes the rules. And then you are just abiding by 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.320 feeling powerless emotionally and financially but he then doesn't respect 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.960 that you neither have money nor control. So it's a 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.560 very strange Goldilocks imbalance. 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.760 It is, you're very right, and so we have somebody 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:29.919 who's acting as an emotional dictator and then who can 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.119 act as a kind of a financial dictator as well. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.120 And I have had clients who are married to these 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.160 people and you know, they maybe they've been a stay 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.360 at home mom for fifteen years, right, But then they 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.919 discover then they're in this like loveless marriage where they 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.600 get absolutely nothing back. And they got to go with 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.680 the program, right, and they got to go with the program. 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.520 And then as soon as they push back and say, hey, 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.959 this isn't working for me. I mean, the dismissive avoidance 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.800 is going to dismiss an avoid and they've had years 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:54.199 and years and years of that, they get fed up. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.080 They try to go get a divorce and then I mean, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:58.840 I don't have to tell you how that process works. 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.400 If you don't have any money, you can't get anywhere, right, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.600 And so then they they're really scared of losing custody 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:06.200 of their kids. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:07.720 They're really scared. 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.600 The man has control now emotionally and financially. 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:11.960 You know, because the family court system is all about 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.920 who can outspend you, know, who can you can keep 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.480 it going for literally ever I've been through fugual Well. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:18.760 They can emotionally outspend you. 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.040 Also, absolutely they can wear you down completely with their 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.840 inability to compromise, with their inability to see what's in 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.159 the really truly the best interest of both parties in 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.480 the situation. It really dismissible avoidance, thrive on control, and 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.159 that comes from and it's not in the same way 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.560 a narcissist does. It's definitely different from narcissism. So I 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.600 always try to tell people this isn't das aren't necessarily narcissists. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.760 They can be, but not all das are narcissists. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.600 Many are very deeply insecure, deeply insecure, and and their 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.320 insecurity though is not only unrecognized by them, yes, it's 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.879 recognized by most of society. What they look like on 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.639 the outside are very stoic people, people that really have 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.359 their stuff together, people operate based on logic and you know, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:00.680 have all of theirs in a row. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:01.560 And that is true of them. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.360 I mean, most of the DA's that I encounter are 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.000 very successful people. And then they come to me, and 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.240 they're like, I've been successful in every ever, every area 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.080 of my life except with my wife, and I don't 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:11.640 know what I'm doing. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.800 And those are then amenable to change. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.000 But in situations where you know, a woman has been 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.439 through this for fifteen twenty years and she's tired of 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.400 living in a loveless marriage and she wants to get 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.479 out their deep desire to have control, which comes from 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.400 being pushed into hyper independence too soon for their development, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.040 where they had to have control in order to survive 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.479 because they were tasked with doing things developmentally that they 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.840