Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff
Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Taglas. Hey, Julie,
Speaker 1: have you ever had a computer virus? And and and
Speaker 1: have you ever wanted to keep it and raise it
Speaker 1: that I haven't got it right next to me? Actually,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it's so sweet. Yeah. You really go to
Speaker 1: love them after a while. Yeah, yeah, I mean their
Speaker 1: appetite is voracious. Yeah, and occasionally get out of hand
Speaker 1: and they throw a lot of like naked photos up
Speaker 1: on your desktop. But you know that's just that's they're
Speaker 1: just acting out. They just want attention, you know exactly.
Speaker 1: They're just I'm they're being creative, and you just have
Speaker 1: to say, you go forward and in one day you'll
Speaker 1: be independent and you won't be so nuts and get
Speaker 1: me fired exactly. Yeah. Of course, there always comes at
Speaker 1: time where you're trying to explain your pet virus to
Speaker 1: somebody and they're like, whoa that we can't have a
Speaker 1: pet computer virus. That's not even alive, that's not a thing,
Speaker 1: that's not a creature. And you say, what what do
Speaker 1: you mean? This? This is my companion, right yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's usually like the I t people that are like,
Speaker 1: it's totally not alive. Let me take it away, let
Speaker 1: me let me squash it like a bug right here
Speaker 1: in front of you. And you're like, whoa nor get
Speaker 1: the way it is right right. It's just I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how many jobs I've lost as a results
Speaker 1: of that. But someone's got someone out there has to
Speaker 1: understand how computer visors might be alive. I don't know. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's actually a very interesting area of study. Thus the
Speaker 1: reason that we're going to talk about it for an
Speaker 1: entire podcast, um um, because you you look at this thing, uh,
Speaker 1: and it's uh, it's doing a lot of tasks and
Speaker 1: it's carrying out a lot of functions that when you
Speaker 1: when you look at some of the various criteria for life,
Speaker 1: it kind of adds up it kind of it kind
Speaker 1: of can you can make a compelling case exactly? I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not an accident that it's called a virus, right,
Speaker 1: because if you look at a biological virus, it's basically
Speaker 1: a germ that can only replicate itself inside living cells
Speaker 1: of organisms. Right, So there's certainly uh similarities with a
Speaker 1: computer virus which spreads from one computer to another computer
Speaker 1: using executable code. Right like, so in my mind, this
Speaker 1: is very much like an S A T question, Like
Speaker 1: viruses to living cells as malicious code is to executable
Speaker 1: files like boom, there it is, right yeah, And just
Speaker 1: to take everyone back, the word virus itself is from
Speaker 1: the Latin for poison, so yeah, just throw that in there.
Speaker 1: But so so, yeah, let's look at normal viruses organic
Speaker 1: viruses first, um, biological viral infections. These are spread by
Speaker 1: a virus which is a small shell containing a containing
Speaker 1: genetic material, and it injects its contents into a larger
Speaker 1: organism cell. Then the cell is basically converted into a
Speaker 1: biological factory, right like, it's just pushing all its cells
Speaker 1: out right right and injected its DNA and it's trying
Speaker 1: to explode outward. Yeah, and it's just you know, it's
Speaker 1: carrying off the basic function of all life, you know, replicate, replicate.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then that's what you're saying is basically
Speaker 1: the key word is that it wants to replicate, it
Speaker 1: wants to reproduce. It must go forward. And so then
Speaker 1: of course you've got the computer code, which you know, um,
Speaker 1: it is self replicating, and before computers were outfitted with modems,
Speaker 1: viruses were pretty rare. So that's why we are now
Speaker 1: so very aware of it because it can spread through
Speaker 1: a network, um the internets or old school style floppy disk.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's kind of interesting when you compare
Speaker 1: it to UM, to the rise of organic viruses and
Speaker 1: human communities. UM. You know, at one point when when
Speaker 1: humans were saying living out on their own, uh, they
Speaker 1: were exposed to a certain number of viruses within these communities.
Speaker 1: Then they start raising animals, domesticating animals they were living
Speaker 1: in close proximity. Then to animals with other various illnesses
Speaker 1: and viruses that can potentially be picked up by humans
Speaker 1: and adapt for the for human hosts. And then you
Speaker 1: have cities coming together, and then suddenly you have a
Speaker 1: large number of people living in UM in close proximity
Speaker 1: to one another with their animals, and it just ups
Speaker 1: the anti even more. So you can compare that to
Speaker 1: the just the the continuing evolution and inter connectivity of
Speaker 1: our our our internet and our our our communications network.
Speaker 1: So it's just as as we grow and grow more
Speaker 1: and more con connected than the potential for viruses to
Speaker 1: just spread like wildfire becomes admits, which actually has like
Speaker 1: crazy interesting implications for us. Um if you consider that
Speaker 1: as a model, right, because right now we're like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: computer viruses, they are paining so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: But um, but they actually down the road might have
Speaker 1: some ramifications on how we live and the sort of
Speaker 1: technology we use. But but first, just to get back
Speaker 1: to that question about whether or not they're alive, because
Speaker 1: I really do think this is central to to what
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Stephen Hawking actually said that um come
Speaker 1: viruses fit standard definitions of living systems even though they
Speaker 1: have no metabolism of their own. So the computer virus
Speaker 1: exploits the metabolism of the host computer in effects, and
Speaker 1: it becomes a parasite. Uh. And to quote him, this
Speaker 1: parasitic existence is a key characteristic of biological viruses, as
Speaker 1: is its ability to replicate only inside the cells of
Speaker 1: a living host. So there you have it, Stephen Hawking saying, Hey, look,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is alive so much, but I'm
Speaker 1: saying that you know, if you if you look at
Speaker 1: a biological virus, which is you know, questionable whether or
Speaker 1: not it's alive. Yeah, there's so much that's that they
Speaker 1: have in common here. Yeah. Yeah, organic viruses are are
Speaker 1: kind of a gray area at times for some people. Um.
Speaker 1: For starters, viruses lack most of the internal structure and
Speaker 1: machinery which characterizes many definitions of life. And that's the
Speaker 1: thing that you can find various definitions of life and
Speaker 1: you can sort of pick and choose the one that
Speaker 1: best um fits your you know whatever you're trying to argue,
Speaker 1: Like you want to make an argument that a flame
Speaker 1: is a lie, then you can sort of find the
Speaker 1: right list and skew it. And uh, it's kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting thought thought project. What is it to be alive? Yeah? Um,
Speaker 1: and it's great if you're a firebug too, because you
Speaker 1: can be like like my children, I must raise them
Speaker 1: um at the factory across the street. But that's a
Speaker 1: whole paramaniac discussion. Well that's that's another podcast. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they like many of the the inner machinery. UM that
Speaker 1: that that is often associated with life, the biosynthetic machinery
Speaker 1: that is necessary for reproduction. Uh. In in order for
Speaker 1: a virus to replicate, it must again infect that host cell. Right,
Speaker 1: if you look at the counterpoint by Richard Dawkins, who says, Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: I agree with Stephen talking to the point that it's
Speaker 1: it's uh if it's system definition of system of life. However,
Speaker 1: both um bacterial virus and computer virus, they what they
Speaker 1: both lack is some sort of monicum of independence or
Speaker 1: independence thoughts. So I think for for him, you know,
Speaker 1: it's the niggle in question of what is it to
Speaker 1: be alive? And is the process that you're independent and autonomous?
Speaker 1: And again this is a gray area because I mean,
Speaker 1: you've got computer viruses and biological viruses mutating on their
Speaker 1: own um and taking over their hosts. And yes, it's
Speaker 1: the same sort of code that's replicated over and over again,
Speaker 1: but there are certain things that are happening to make
Speaker 1: this organism or this code actually act independently in some circumstances.
Speaker 1: Of course, this is a if and then proposition, right,
Speaker 1: particularly for for algorithm in a computer virus. And and
Speaker 1: again that code we're talking about typically two four thousand
Speaker 1: bytes based on the source I was looking at UM
Speaker 1: that I don't know if that's that may have swollen
Speaker 1: in recent years, but but they're not big, You're not
Speaker 1: There's not like a gig computer virus out there. UM.
Speaker 1: That would be more of it, like the host as
Speaker 1: opposed to the parasite. UM. I I really enjoyed reading
Speaker 1: um about about some of this from an article by
Speaker 1: Eugene Spafford, a k A staff or I hope the staff. Yeah, huge,
Speaker 1: huge staff at Purdue University. Uh. And he uh he
Speaker 1: he has an interesting essay UH that's available online if
Speaker 1: you search for it where he lays out like a
Speaker 1: number of different criteria for life, including self reproduction, metabolism
Speaker 1: which we just discussed, functional interactions with environment, interdependence of parts,
Speaker 1: stability under changes in the environment, evolution and growth or expansion.
Speaker 1: So and just just to go through a few of
Speaker 1: these real quick that except for metabolism, which we already discussed. UM. First,
Speaker 1: you have functional interactions with the viruses environment. Viruses perform
Speaker 1: examinations of their host environments as part as their activities.
Speaker 1: You have interdependence of virus parts. Uh. And living organisms
Speaker 1: cannot be divided generally without destroying them, or they can
Speaker 1: only be divided to a point. You know, It's like
Speaker 1: you can you may be able to cut the limb
Speaker 1: off of a starfish and have to starfish but you
Speaker 1: can't put it in the food process there and expect
Speaker 1: miraculous things to happen, you know, unless you have a
Speaker 1: great recipe. But the same is true of computer viruses.
Speaker 1: You take that that code and you break it up.
Speaker 1: You just have some segments of code. Um virus stability
Speaker 1: under changes. Computer viruses run on different machines, you know,
Speaker 1: So you put it out there and uh and it
Speaker 1: and it will be you know, designed to tackle like
Speaker 1: this version of Windows. In this version of Windows um
Speaker 1: uh and uh. Many of these are able to also
Speaker 1: compromise and in some cases defeat anti virus and copy
Speaker 1: protection mechanisms. So they're out there surviving in different environments,
Speaker 1: dealing with different defense systems or predators. However you want
Speaker 1: to frame them. And I think that really interesting thing
Speaker 1: about that is that they can assess their environment and
Speaker 1: they can say this is a dangerous environment for me,
Speaker 1: How am I supposed to react to this? Or this
Speaker 1: is um, this environment is great for me, Yeah, this
Speaker 1: environment is great. Let's let's uh, let me do my
Speaker 1: thing here. Yeah, let me buy a couch and an
Speaker 1: automan and stick it in here and live here for
Speaker 1: a while. This presentation is brought to you by Intel
Speaker 1: sponsors of tomorrow. And of course the most obvious one
Speaker 1: is uh that the ability to to reproduce, you know,
Speaker 1: to self reproduction. The code that defines the virus is
Speaker 1: a template and used by the virus to replicate itself.
Speaker 1: And it's very similar to DNA molecules um in organic life.
Speaker 1: So um, you can again, you can make a compelling argument.
Speaker 1: But but the staff, if I'm allot to calling that,
Speaker 1: yeah huge, makes another interesting analogy that I love, and
Speaker 1: that's the one of the Xerox machine. All right. He
Speaker 1: points out that that even though a computer virus boasts
Speaker 1: a partially automated ability to reproduce, the virus itself is
Speaker 1: not the agent of reproduction. Okay, the computer is this
Speaker 1: and and the example of these Zerox machine is this. Um,
Speaker 1: if viruses are alive, then the blueprints or a Xerox
Speaker 1: machine are alive, because if an outside party takes those blueprints,
Speaker 1: they can build a Xerox machine, and then they can
Speaker 1: slide the blueprints through the Xerox machine and make a
Speaker 1: copy but the blue but but then can you look
Speaker 1: at the blueprints and say, this blueprint can make a
Speaker 1: copy of itself because it contains the information to make
Speaker 1: a machine that can be used to make a copy
Speaker 1: of itself, right, because outside of it, it's it's a mission,
Speaker 1: so to speak, it can't think independently, right, which is
Speaker 1: what it normally all boils down to. Right. But I still,
Speaker 1: I mean, I get totally get that. But then I
Speaker 1: think about something like stuck snet and how incredibly complex
Speaker 1: that viruses. And again, yes, it's got a certain mission
Speaker 1: and it's not going to deviate outside of the parameters
Speaker 1: of um the code that have been written. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's it's a maybe just ushers in a new era
Speaker 1: of what we think of as viruses, and maybe we
Speaker 1: should discuss stexnet just a little bit um. But this,
Speaker 1: of course is the um worm computer virus that spies
Speaker 1: on and reprograms industrial systems. So basically it can futs
Speaker 1: with the programmable logic controller and then hide those changes.
Speaker 1: So and then this of course happened in Iran and
Speaker 1: on the nuclear facility there. They had a bunch of
Speaker 1: things going wrong, and eventually they think it was discovered
Speaker 1: that this specific virus was going in and actually changing
Speaker 1: the I believe it was the speed of some of
Speaker 1: the rotors so it was messing up the machinery and
Speaker 1: basically it was slowing down their ability to enrich uranium. Okay,
Speaker 1: so what does that mean to us? I mean that that,
Speaker 1: first of all, that's I guess what you would call
Speaker 1: uh computer virus warfare in a sense, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously someone created this really sophisticated virus, goes in and
Speaker 1: yah and messes with things, throws a wrench into the machinery,
Speaker 1: but in the in in a more subtle way, right right.
Speaker 1: And let me also back up to and say that
Speaker 1: the reason they think that this um was meant specifically
Speaker 1: for this facility is because if you look at the
Speaker 1: instances of infection of this virus, six of them occurred
Speaker 1: in Iran, and it is tarted towards these these systems. UM.
Speaker 1: But I think the problem is is that stex net
Speaker 1: could be used as a blueprint to sabotage machines that
Speaker 1: are critical to US power plants, electrical grids, and other infrastructures.
Speaker 1: So that's why it's kind of a scary virus. It's
Speaker 1: not just a hey here's some here's a nikky picture
Speaker 1: you know, popping up. Yeah, it's it compares it's very
Speaker 1: comparable to the the the use of biological and chemical happens.
Speaker 1: You create something that is you know, deployable against your enemy.
Speaker 1: You've you well with biological and chemical you do create
Speaker 1: something that can be used against yourself. And uh and
Speaker 1: uh and and certainly many of these viruses there's not
Speaker 1: a whole lot of adaptation and an alteration that would
Speaker 1: have to take place for it to be you know,
Speaker 1: a weapon that could be used against U S systems
Speaker 1: and an infrastructure. So yeah, and actually we haven't heard
Speaker 1: a whole lot of biological warfare lately. I think that
Speaker 1: was largely a big, you know, post not eleven concern,
Speaker 1: although I think it's a huge concern still. Um. But
Speaker 1: yet to use your analogy, I mean, you've got the
Speaker 1: think about the small pox infected blankets. Um. Now, okay,
Speaker 1: that was something that was crushing um and it was
Speaker 1: awful and it spread like rapid fire. But now we've
Speaker 1: mapped the genome, we have the ability in theory to
Speaker 1: actually create a biological virus that could wipe out certain
Speaker 1: ethnicities we wanted to. So again, here's here's the parallels
Speaker 1: between them. That's that's um at the very core, sort
Speaker 1: of a simple structure, but the way that it can
Speaker 1: be deployed is really complex and sophisticated. Oh and just
Speaker 1: to just to throw it back to word origins and
Speaker 1: terminology origins, the term computer virus that first showed up
Speaker 1: in a science fiction novel two when Harley was won
Speaker 1: by David Gerald j that's g E R R O
Speaker 1: L D. And uh. The actual the first actual computer
Speaker 1: virus to hit the scene didn't come around until so yeah,
Speaker 1: and again it didn't. It hasn't really become so much
Speaker 1: of a problem until and on the last decade or
Speaker 1: so when people were regularly using modems. So before that
Speaker 1: you'd have to spread it by floppy disk, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I can't imagine. I mean, I haven't looked up
Speaker 1: the headlines and done the research, but I can't imagine
Speaker 1: computer viruses made you know, top headlines much back in
Speaker 1: the old days. But nowadays it's really, you know, not
Speaker 1: that uncommon. Particularly the HAAD virus comes around, it's gonna
Speaker 1: it's going to show up, yeah, you know, in Google
Speaker 1: and in various ways right outware malware that's what they
Speaker 1: call in the street. Um, But I mean, it really
Speaker 1: is interesting to again to look at those sort of
Speaker 1: similarities between biological warfare and computer virus warfare and what
Speaker 1: that points to in the future. Yeah, and then also
Speaker 1: the you know, our laptops are our gadgets. They become
Speaker 1: an increasingly huge part of our lives. They really become
Speaker 1: extensions of ourselves, you know. So it's you get the
Speaker 1: virus in a way, it's it's not you know, it's
Speaker 1: not threatening your body, but it's threatening this device that
Speaker 1: allows you to communicate with a vast number of people.
Speaker 1: Like in the old days, if you caught a virus
Speaker 1: and it kept you from talking to your mom, it
Speaker 1: meant that it was, you know, somehow in in inhibiting
Speaker 1: your ability to speak. But you can conceivably get a
Speaker 1: get a virus now, and it's like, oh, I can't
Speaker 1: you skype anymore. I can't talk to my mom until
Speaker 1: I get a cure for this. Well, and this is
Speaker 1: the crazy thing too. I mean, you could take this
Speaker 1: one step further and look at the guy who uh
Speaker 1: and sorted the r f I D chip into his hand,
Speaker 1: Dr Mark Gasson from the University of Reading. He and
Speaker 1: he did this on purpose. It was a proof of
Speaker 1: concept thing. He was contaminating this r f I D
Speaker 1: chip and then you know, putting it under his skin. Um.
Speaker 1: And of course he was using an actually for a
Speaker 1: purpose other than that. It was access to his building,
Speaker 1: and it also identified himself to his cell phone or
Speaker 1: to his modbile and then he went on like a
Speaker 1: day a blind date with a really scheezy PC. Right. Well, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: yes he doesn't talk about that a lot though, But
Speaker 1: what he does talk about, um, is that because he
Speaker 1: gave himself this virus essentially in this r f I
Speaker 1: D chip, that he could then pass that virus onto
Speaker 1: all the technology that associated with him. So some people
Speaker 1: were calling him a scaremonger. You know, this is a
Speaker 1: could happen, might happen situation, But he was basically saying, well,
Speaker 1: look at Pacemaker's UM, look at other implants bringing him plants,
Speaker 1: all the other technology, cochlear implants that we have available
Speaker 1: to us. Cochlear. What's the cochlear it's an inner ear. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was thinking of the tailbone for some reason, the
Speaker 1: coss cossacks. I'm like, why, why would have someone have
Speaker 1: an electronic implant on the cossacks would be kind of awesome,
Speaker 1: like an electronic vestigial tail doesn't my vestigial tail implant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of turns it into an antenna. Maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess if you had subcutaneous horns and you just
Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, make it like sort of fresh
Speaker 1: for you can do the tail. Cool, we're putting it
Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, I mean why not? Um, But anyway,
Speaker 1: that is that's the huge concern is that we could
Speaker 1: then with all our all our sort of cyborg like
Speaker 1: technology coming on board, be able to transfer computer viruses
Speaker 1: to one another, which is really trippy. Yeah, and certainly, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the you see this idea to show up
Speaker 1: in some science fiction, especially when you when you see
Speaker 1: the lines blurred. Uh well a lot of science fiction.
Speaker 1: I guess when when when the lines are become blurred
Speaker 1: between organic life and technology technological life, and you know,
Speaker 1: certainly you know, well I'm not even go into all
Speaker 1: the variations, but you know, it's like you get into
Speaker 1: a situation where where we're like entering a computer environment
Speaker 1: or or or the human mind it's digitized, or just
Speaker 1: just look at like any tin headlines, um um, you know,
Speaker 1: science headlines on the net and and think to yourself, oh,
Speaker 1: what how would how how my computer viruses mess this
Speaker 1: innovation up? When you know, if it's something talking about
Speaker 1: oh they're using devices to see into people's dreams or
Speaker 1: you know or whatever, there's I know, the possibilities are endless, right,
Speaker 1: I mean I was even thinking about the podcast that
Speaker 1: we did about the ways that we could modify ourselves,
Speaker 1: and we talked about the exo skeleton and how something
Speaker 1: like that could become infected. Of course, again people would
Speaker 1: say this is scaremongering because it hasn't happened. But you know,
Speaker 1: there is r f I D chip and yes it
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't X a Cutney code, right because it
Speaker 1: just scans. But whatever is scanning that could have some
Speaker 1: sort of UM security problem with it and and could
Speaker 1: be UM infected. Right, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to raise the hackles here. I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to get nuts. But I think it's pretty amazing. But
Speaker 1: the really interesting thing is it's you know, viruses that
Speaker 1: occur naturally, that's just a product of evolution, things evolving
Speaker 1: and filling various niches out there. Uh two do what
Speaker 1: organic or any kind of animal needs to do. But
Speaker 1: but but human Uh computer viruses are man made. They
Speaker 1: are created things. So it's it's like there's something in
Speaker 1: us that just could not resist. We we had to.
Speaker 1: You know, conceivably, we could have this this like pure
Speaker 1: technological world and the Internet would just be flawless. There
Speaker 1: would be there would be no viruses, there would be
Speaker 1: no um, you know, virus scans popping up on your computer.
Speaker 1: But we we just we just couldn't do it. We
Speaker 1: just can't have nice things. We have to have to
Speaker 1: create something that can that can can mess up the
Speaker 1: other dude's computer and potentially mess up our own or
Speaker 1: passing on our flaws. That's what you're saying. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: interesting that a lot of people will say that viruses
Speaker 1: are just sloppy code. When you come down and in
Speaker 1: sloppy code, I guess in not protecting it um systems
Speaker 1: from viruses. Oh so it's like saying that it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a problem if the systems were more Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but I do. I think that's really interesting that you
Speaker 1: say that, because, Um, Susan Blackmore and someone we've talked
Speaker 1: about before. She's a memeticist and she's also a parasychologist.
Speaker 1: But in the skeptics camp. Does she have pink hair, blue, blue, yellow?
Speaker 1: It depends on the day. Yeah. Yeah, she's kind of
Speaker 1: got a wonderful rainbow of air. Because I've been looking
Speaker 1: at our articles and then suddenly, like pictures were showing
Speaker 1: up in Google Search, you know, the little Google image
Speaker 1: search bar, and I'm like, whoa is that her? It
Speaker 1: makes sense. She's she's into a lot of really cool areas. Yeah, yeah, she's.
Speaker 1: She's a very interesting, um woman. And she actually if
Speaker 1: you get our website, I think you'll probably see the
Speaker 1: most recent picture of her hair. But other than her hair, um,
Speaker 1: she's she's done some really um interesting research into this,
Speaker 1: into memeticism, and and just to talk about this to
Speaker 1: quick overview, a meme is basically just an idea that's
Speaker 1: getting perpetuated, much like code or virus and um to
Speaker 1: go back to like like l O L cat, like
Speaker 1: any like let the internet, any of these ideas that
Speaker 1: suddenly like everybody just starts running with it and doing
Speaker 1: it until it becomes so annoying you don't want to
Speaker 1: even go on the internet anymore. Exactly. She's basically she
Speaker 1: took Richard Dawkins idea of the selfish gene basically, and
Speaker 1: and sort of ran with and said that language and
Speaker 1: communication is information that's copied with variation and selection. So
Speaker 1: a mom and as an idea that's self perpetuating and
Speaker 1: essentially it takes ideas and moves them in a viral fashion,
Speaker 1: so that none of that is a surprise to me?
Speaker 1: Is it to you? I mean that makes perfect sense
Speaker 1: to me. Um. So she all says this is based
Speaker 1: on universal Darwinism, that that algorithm that he sort of
Speaker 1: accidentally came up with, which was you know, if you've
Speaker 1: got variation, if you've got selection, um, if you've got replication,
Speaker 1: which is also heredity, then you will have some sort
Speaker 1: of um basically evolution, or you'll have design that came
Speaker 1: out of chaos that was independent of any sort of
Speaker 1: thought or mind behind it, which is really interesting. So
Speaker 1: she takes this idea one step further though by saying
Speaker 1: that we're not just these gene machines that are replicating
Speaker 1: ourselves um and mem machines that are are replicating our
Speaker 1: thoughts or ideas, but we're also tem or team machines,
Speaker 1: which is technology means basically, So what she means is
Speaker 1: that we're we are perpetuating technology and that we are
Speaker 1: the hosts. Oh, so this gets into the whole like
Speaker 1: what does technognology want? That it's an extension of ourselves,
Speaker 1: and that that ultimately like we're we're facilitating the technological
Speaker 1: evolution exactly. I mean she she goes on to say,
Speaker 1: actually that we we think we have a choice in
Speaker 1: the matter, that it's us who decided to perpetuate the internet, um,
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. So not the virus,
Speaker 1: the computer virus is not only virus, but technology itself
Speaker 1: is potentially the virus. Yeah, exactly, exactly, So she said,
Speaker 1: when we're basically the host and they're just writing on
Speaker 1: our backs until they can begin self replicating themselves, and
Speaker 1: then of course I'm sure they'll shed us. Um, but
Speaker 1: until you've got to go to the moon first? Who
Speaker 1: got to go to Mars first? Who got to leave
Speaker 1: the solar system first? Machines they've been they've been working
Speaker 1: us for decades, and she says to like, our brain
Speaker 1: is actually evolving for them, the way that our brain
Speaker 1: is processing information. I Mean, some people will say that
Speaker 1: the brain is just a computer, but of course that's um,
Speaker 1: that's that's sort of not a correct analogy. But certainly
Speaker 1: we get to the more we live with computers, the
Speaker 1: more we want to think the mind as a computer.
Speaker 1: And right, it gets into that hole. And then it
Speaker 1: was like, I think it also gets in the whole argument.
Speaker 1: Like you know, in a previous episode we talked about
Speaker 1: the interconnectivity between the brain and the gut and how
Speaker 1: you are more than just a brain, you are also
Speaker 1: this entire body. Um. But we want to apply the
Speaker 1: computer model to it and say we are a brain
Speaker 1: and the rest is just hardware. Right, So right, we
Speaker 1: want to say, right we we uh, we like the
Speaker 1: the computer model. We want to become the computer model.
Speaker 1: And the computer model has told us this from the
Speaker 1: get go. Well you want to become us, I think.
Speaker 1: But it really is a very interesting argument that she makes,
Speaker 1: and she talks about cyborg technology in the different ways
Speaker 1: that we are trying to mesh our humanity with technology.
Speaker 1: So there you go. Yeah, that's I mean, my mind
Speaker 1: is blown a little just talking about it. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it always, of course, it leads me back to the
Speaker 1: all roads lead to the technological singularity. Right the day
Speaker 1: wind computers take that light speed jump become bigger than us, um.
Speaker 1: More more confident than us and just completely skyrocket following
Speaker 1: Morph's law and just just evolving in a rapid rate
Speaker 1: until they're just machine God's right, leaving us in the dust. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but potentially still loving us. A god can can love
Speaker 1: even his or her creators, right, So, but I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I love. I really do like your benevolent
Speaker 1: version of it. I'm going to stick to that. It
Speaker 1: makes me feel better. Well, we'll see or we won't see. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll see. I don't know. No, no, no, somebody
Speaker 1: will see. What do we have on the books here? Oh?
Speaker 1: We have some listener mail, do we not? We do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just been pointed out to me. I hadn't really
Speaker 1: noticed that there's a there's an awesome robot noise that
Speaker 1: happens with the podcast whenever we do listen to mail.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, which which sounds to me like it makes
Speaker 1: me think of like Maximilian the Red Robots from the
Speaker 1: Black Hole, like coming in, given us, given us the
Speaker 1: listener mail, given us the listener male thumbs up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think it's actually setting closer to you. I
Speaker 1: think guess where the robot left it. Let's see. Shall
Speaker 1: we start with this one. Um, this is from John
Speaker 1: and his subject climb was coffee beans from animals. Oh yes, uh,
Speaker 1: this is which we discussed and um the animal junkie.
Speaker 1: That's right, and he says on the Addicted Animal Junkies
Speaker 1: podcast released today, you tube speak of excreted slash fecal
Speaker 1: coffee beans, Julie said goats, and Lamb says cats do
Speaker 1: the dirty work. It is actually palm civit cats, which
Speaker 1: are not cats and not monkeys as some stories call them,
Speaker 1: although another coffee is made from for mosen rock monkey vombit.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, well that was that's the most confusing explanation
Speaker 1: of all. I have no idea what the animal is now, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. And that's it's funny because I always thought
Speaker 1: the Civic cat was a cat that was indigenous to Africa.
Speaker 1: I could be wrong on that, but in my association
Speaker 1: with the Civic cat is that they used the uh
Speaker 1: anal glands um or some of the tissue or something
Speaker 1: from it in Chanel number five. Okay, yeah, to give
Speaker 1: it sort of the funky bass name. I suppose. Well
Speaker 1: that's great. Yeah, so there you go. But thank you
Speaker 1: Jones that that's we're gonna have to check into the
Speaker 1: monkey vomits have a tough life. They're just constantly eating
Speaker 1: coffee for us and dying for our Chanel number five,
Speaker 1: or at least undergoing some perhaps unpleasant tinkering in their
Speaker 1: anal glands. Yeah, it's possible. And this is from mo
Speaker 1: on on our Facebook page and it says Kope lou
Speaker 1: walk is made from coffee berries that have been partially
Speaker 1: digested by wild tree cats. I think J. D. Samuel
Speaker 1: was talking about the legend of the first discovery of coffee.
Speaker 1: The story goes a goat herder in Ethiopia saw his
Speaker 1: goats eat the berries and the uh started going bonkers,
Speaker 1: so he took the beans to some monks who made
Speaker 1: it into stew. Hooray for coffee. All right, cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought that the goats were involved with this. Go
Speaker 1: to the original caffeine freaks, right Coffee Flavor Earth Yeah yeah. Well. Hey,
Speaker 1: if you want to find out more though about the
Speaker 1: viruses and computer viruses, you should definitely come to the
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works website and you can put virus or
Speaker 1: computer virus in the search bar and you will get
Speaker 1: all sorts of interesting results. We have a number of
Speaker 1: articles that deal with these very related topics and also
Speaker 1: through technological singularity in there. Jonathan Strickland wrote an excellent
Speaker 1: article about that. So if you're still a little foggy
Speaker 1: about what it is or what it what it means, uh,
Speaker 1: that's a great article read. Remember you can always find
Speaker 1: us on Facebook or Twitter. We are blow the Mind
Speaker 1: on both of those, and you can always old school
Speaker 1: drop us a line at blow the Mind at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands
Speaker 1: of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. To
Speaker 1: learn more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon
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Speaker 1: on iTunes, m