WEBVTT - Are computer viruses alive? 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.080 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.640 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Taglas. Hey, Julie, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.560 have you ever had a computer virus? And and and 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.000 have you ever wanted to keep it and raise it 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.239 that I haven't got it right next to me? Actually, 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.520 oh yeah, it's so sweet. Yeah. You really go to 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.520 love them after a while. Yeah, yeah, I mean their 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.479 appetite is voracious. Yeah, and occasionally get out of hand 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.919 and they throw a lot of like naked photos up 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:38.839 on your desktop. But you know that's just that's they're 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.159 just acting out. They just want attention, you know exactly. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.720 They're just I'm they're being creative, and you just have 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.559 to say, you go forward and in one day you'll 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.800 be independent and you won't be so nuts and get 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.680 me fired exactly. Yeah. Of course, there always comes at 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:53.479 time where you're trying to explain your pet virus to 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.960 somebody and they're like, whoa that we can't have a 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.240 pet computer virus. That's not even alive, that's not a thing, 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.680 that's not a creature. And you say, what what do 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.760 you mean? This? This is my companion, right yeah. Um, 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.560 and it's usually like the I t people that are like, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.680 it's totally not alive. Let me take it away, let 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:11.920 me let me squash it like a bug right here 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.840 in front of you. And you're like, whoa nor get 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.680 the way it is right right. It's just I can't 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.240 tell you how many jobs I've lost as a results 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.080 of that. But someone's got someone out there has to 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.880 understand how computer visors might be alive. I don't know. Yes, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.040 it's actually a very interesting area of study. Thus the 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:31.640 reason that we're going to talk about it for an 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.360 entire podcast, um um, because you you look at this thing, uh, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.240 and it's uh, it's doing a lot of tasks and 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.600 it's carrying out a lot of functions that when you 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.520 when you look at some of the various criteria for life, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.400 it kind of adds up it kind of it kind 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.080 of can you can make a compelling case exactly? I mean, 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.560 it's not an accident that it's called a virus, right, 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.680 because if you look at a biological virus, it's basically 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.960 a germ that can only replicate itself inside living cells 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:04.040 of organisms. Right, So there's certainly uh similarities with a 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.080 computer virus which spreads from one computer to another computer 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.600 using executable code. Right like, so in my mind, this 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.120 is very much like an S A T question, Like 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.440 viruses to living cells as malicious code is to executable 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.560 files like boom, there it is, right yeah, And just 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.440 to take everyone back, the word virus itself is from 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:30.720 the Latin for poison, so yeah, just throw that in there. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.520 But so so, yeah, let's look at normal viruses organic 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:40.240 viruses first, um, biological viral infections. These are spread by 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.160 a virus which is a small shell containing a containing 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:47.400 genetic material, and it injects its contents into a larger 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.320 organism cell. Then the cell is basically converted into a 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.560 biological factory, right like, it's just pushing all its cells 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.200 out right right and injected its DNA and it's trying 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.440 to explode outward. Yeah, and it's just you know, it's 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.400 carrying off the basic function of all life, you know, replicate, replicate. 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.640 But yeah, and then that's what you're saying is basically 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.120 the key word is that it wants to replicate, it 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.040 wants to reproduce. It must go forward. And so then 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.840 of course you've got the computer code, which you know, um, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:20.160 it is self replicating, and before computers were outfitted with modems, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.680 viruses were pretty rare. So that's why we are now 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.640 so very aware of it because it can spread through 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:30.160 a network, um the internets or old school style floppy disk. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.560 Oh yeah, it's it's kind of interesting when you compare 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.320 it to UM, to the rise of organic viruses and 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.800 human communities. UM. You know, at one point when when 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.440 humans were saying living out on their own, uh, they 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.360 were exposed to a certain number of viruses within these communities. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.320 Then they start raising animals, domesticating animals they were living 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.520 in close proximity. Then to animals with other various illnesses 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.960 and viruses that can potentially be picked up by humans 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.000 and adapt for the for human hosts. And then you 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.680 have cities coming together, and then suddenly you have a 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.840 large number of people living in UM in close proximity 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.800 to one another with their animals, and it just ups 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.280 the anti even more. So you can compare that to 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.719 the just the the continuing evolution and inter connectivity of 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.640 our our our internet and our our our communications network. 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.440 So it's just as as we grow and grow more 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.360 and more con connected than the potential for viruses to 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.359 just spread like wildfire becomes admits, which actually has like 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:35.640 crazy interesting implications for us. Um if you consider that 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.920 as a model, right, because right now we're like, oh yeah, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.839 computer viruses, they are paining so on and so forth. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:46.000 But um, but they actually down the road might have 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.760 some ramifications on how we live and the sort of 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.760 technology we use. But but first, just to get back 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.840 to that question about whether or not they're alive, because 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.800 I really do think this is central to to what 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.800 we're talking about. Stephen Hawking actually said that um come 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.160 viruses fit standard definitions of living systems even though they 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.040 have no metabolism of their own. So the computer virus 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.920 exploits the metabolism of the host computer in effects, and 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.960 it becomes a parasite. Uh. And to quote him, this 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.279 parasitic existence is a key characteristic of biological viruses, as 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:21.040 is its ability to replicate only inside the cells of 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.320 a living host. So there you have it, Stephen Hawking saying, Hey, look, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.440 I'm not saying this is alive so much, but I'm 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.719 saying that you know, if you if you look at 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.200 a biological virus, which is you know, questionable whether or 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.960 not it's alive. Yeah, there's so much that's that they 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.320 have in common here. Yeah. Yeah, organic viruses are are 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.400 kind of a gray area at times for some people. Um. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.760 For starters, viruses lack most of the internal structure and 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.520 machinery which characterizes many definitions of life. And that's the 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.000 thing that you can find various definitions of life and 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:54.520 you can sort of pick and choose the one that 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.560 best um fits your you know whatever you're trying to argue, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.440 Like you want to make an argument that a flame 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.960 is a lie, then you can sort of find the 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.560 right list and skew it. And uh, it's kind of 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:09.400 an interesting thought thought project. What is it to be alive? Yeah? Um, 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.200 and it's great if you're a firebug too, because you 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.479 can be like like my children, I must raise them 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.680 um at the factory across the street. But that's a 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:21.719 whole paramaniac discussion. Well that's that's another podcast. But yeah, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.560 they like many of the the inner machinery. UM that 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.479 that that is often associated with life, the biosynthetic machinery 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.720 that is necessary for reproduction. Uh. In in order for 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.560 a virus to replicate, it must again infect that host cell. Right, 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.640 if you look at the counterpoint by Richard Dawkins, who says, Okay, yes, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.719 I agree with Stephen talking to the point that it's 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:46.279 it's uh if it's system definition of system of life. However, 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:52.080 both um bacterial virus and computer virus, they what they 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.120 both lack is some sort of monicum of independence or 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.360 independence thoughts. So I think for for him, you know, 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.960 it's the niggle in question of what is it to 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.120 be alive? And is the process that you're independent and autonomous? 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.080 And again this is a gray area because I mean, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.400 you've got computer viruses and biological viruses mutating on their 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.880 own um and taking over their hosts. And yes, it's 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.760 the same sort of code that's replicated over and over again, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:22.880 but there are certain things that are happening to make 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:29.080 this organism or this code actually act independently in some circumstances. 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.400 Of course, this is a if and then proposition, right, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.400 particularly for for algorithm in a computer virus. And and 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.800 again that code we're talking about typically two four thousand 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.440 bytes based on the source I was looking at UM 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.200 that I don't know if that's that may have swollen 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.360 in recent years, but but they're not big, You're not 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.680 There's not like a gig computer virus out there. UM. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.840 That would be more of it, like the host as 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:01.440 opposed to the parasite. UM. I I really enjoyed reading 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.560 um about about some of this from an article by 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.720 Eugene Spafford, a k A staff or I hope the staff. Yeah, huge, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.000 huge staff at Purdue University. Uh. And he uh he 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.080 he has an interesting essay UH that's available online if 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.920 you search for it where he lays out like a 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.960 number of different criteria for life, including self reproduction, metabolism 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.840 which we just discussed, functional interactions with environment, interdependence of parts, 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:38.599 stability under changes in the environment, evolution and growth or expansion. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:40.960 So and just just to go through a few of 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.680 these real quick that except for metabolism, which we already discussed. UM. First, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:52.000 you have functional interactions with the viruses environment. Viruses perform 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.320 examinations of their host environments as part as their activities. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:01.080 You have interdependence of virus parts. Uh. And living organisms 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.800 cannot be divided generally without destroying them, or they can 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:07.600 only be divided to a point. You know, It's like 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.760 you can you may be able to cut the limb 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.920 off of a starfish and have to starfish but you 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.800 can't put it in the food process there and expect 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.120 miraculous things to happen, you know, unless you have a 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.800 great recipe. But the same is true of computer viruses. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.960 You take that that code and you break it up. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:28.319 You just have some segments of code. Um virus stability 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.800 under changes. Computer viruses run on different machines, you know, 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.880 So you put it out there and uh and it 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.120 and it will be you know, designed to tackle like 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.960 this version of Windows. In this version of Windows um 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.439 uh and uh. Many of these are able to also 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.000 compromise and in some cases defeat anti virus and copy 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.760 protection mechanisms. So they're out there surviving in different environments, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.840 dealing with different defense systems or predators. However you want 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.120 to frame them. And I think that really interesting thing 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.520 about that is that they can assess their environment and 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.760 they can say this is a dangerous environment for me, 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.640 How am I supposed to react to this? Or this 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.120 is um, this environment is great for me, Yeah, this 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.600 environment is great. Let's let's uh, let me do my 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.719 thing here. Yeah, let me buy a couch and an 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.920 automan and stick it in here and live here for 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:22.400 a while. This presentation is brought to you by Intel 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:29.439 sponsors of tomorrow. And of course the most obvious one 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.440 is uh that the ability to to reproduce, you know, 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.480 to self reproduction. The code that defines the virus is 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:41.360 a template and used by the virus to replicate itself. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.319 And it's very similar to DNA molecules um in organic life. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.560 So um, you can again, you can make a compelling argument. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.080 But but the staff, if I'm allot to calling that, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.240 yeah huge, makes another interesting analogy that I love, and 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.160 that's the one of the Xerox machine. All right. He 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.760 points out that that even though a computer virus boasts 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:09.520 a partially automated ability to reproduce, the virus itself is 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.520 not the agent of reproduction. Okay, the computer is this 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.319 and and the example of these Zerox machine is this. Um, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.120 if viruses are alive, then the blueprints or a Xerox 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.360 machine are alive, because if an outside party takes those blueprints, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.199 they can build a Xerox machine, and then they can 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.720 slide the blueprints through the Xerox machine and make a 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.360 copy but the blue but but then can you look 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.280 at the blueprints and say, this blueprint can make a 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.320 copy of itself because it contains the information to make 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.319 a machine that can be used to make a copy 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.200 of itself, right, because outside of it, it's it's a mission, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.400 so to speak, it can't think independently, right, which is 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.480 what it normally all boils down to. Right. But I still, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.280 I mean, I get totally get that. But then I 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:57.360 think about something like stuck snet and how incredibly complex 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.680 that viruses. And again, yes, it's got a certain mission 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.479 and it's not going to deviate outside of the parameters 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.280 of um the code that have been written. But to me, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.720 it's it's a maybe just ushers in a new era 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.959 of what we think of as viruses, and maybe we 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.600 should discuss stexnet just a little bit um. But this, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.000 of course is the um worm computer virus that spies 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.480 on and reprograms industrial systems. So basically it can futs 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.440 with the programmable logic controller and then hide those changes. 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.240 So and then this of course happened in Iran and 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.800 on the nuclear facility there. They had a bunch of 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.040 things going wrong, and eventually they think it was discovered 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:45.319 that this specific virus was going in and actually changing 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.080 the I believe it was the speed of some of 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.320 the rotors so it was messing up the machinery and 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.280 basically it was slowing down their ability to enrich uranium. Okay, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.120 so what does that mean to us? I mean that that, 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:02.720 first of all, that's I guess what you would call 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.560 uh computer virus warfare in a sense, right, I mean, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:14.839 obviously someone created this really sophisticated virus, goes in and 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.559 yah and messes with things, throws a wrench into the machinery, 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.600 but in the in in a more subtle way, right right. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.360 And let me also back up to and say that 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:27.000 the reason they think that this um was meant specifically 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.440 for this facility is because if you look at the 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.680 instances of infection of this virus, six of them occurred 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:37.679 in Iran, and it is tarted towards these these systems. UM. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.960 But I think the problem is is that stex net 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.680 could be used as a blueprint to sabotage machines that 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:47.400 are critical to US power plants, electrical grids, and other infrastructures. 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.600 So that's why it's kind of a scary virus. It's 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.760 not just a hey here's some here's a nikky picture 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.000 you know, popping up. Yeah, it's it compares it's very 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:00.360 comparable to the the the use of biological and chemical happens. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.440 You create something that is you know, deployable against your enemy. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.720 You've you well with biological and chemical you do create 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.000 something that can be used against yourself. And uh and 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.880 uh and and certainly many of these viruses there's not 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.480 a whole lot of adaptation and an alteration that would 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.600 have to take place for it to be you know, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.440 a weapon that could be used against U S systems 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.240 and an infrastructure. So yeah, and actually we haven't heard 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.920 a whole lot of biological warfare lately. I think that 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.280 was largely a big, you know, post not eleven concern, 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.200 although I think it's a huge concern still. Um. But 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.080 yet to use your analogy, I mean, you've got the 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.440 think about the small pox infected blankets. Um. Now, okay, 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.960 that was something that was crushing um and it was 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.760 awful and it spread like rapid fire. But now we've 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.400 mapped the genome, we have the ability in theory to 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:52.000 actually create a biological virus that could wipe out certain 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.119 ethnicities we wanted to. So again, here's here's the parallels 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.320 between them. That's that's um at the very core, sort 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.520 of a simple structure, but the way that it can 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:07.960 be deployed is really complex and sophisticated. Oh and just 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.560 to just to throw it back to word origins and 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.520 terminology origins, the term computer virus that first showed up 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:21.120 in a science fiction novel two when Harley was won 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.320 by David Gerald j that's g E R R O 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.240 L D. And uh. The actual the first actual computer 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.200 virus to hit the scene didn't come around until so yeah, 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.720 and again it didn't. It hasn't really become so much 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.040 of a problem until and on the last decade or 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.240 so when people were regularly using modems. So before that 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.480 you'd have to spread it by floppy disk, right, Yeah, 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.840 Like I can't imagine. I mean, I haven't looked up 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.400 the headlines and done the research, but I can't imagine 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.960 computer viruses made you know, top headlines much back in 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.400 the old days. But nowadays it's really, you know, not 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.960 that uncommon. Particularly the HAAD virus comes around, it's gonna 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.240 it's going to show up, yeah, you know, in Google 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:08.440 and in various ways right outware malware that's what they 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.560 call in the street. Um, But I mean, it really 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.960 is interesting to again to look at those sort of 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.800 similarities between biological warfare and computer virus warfare and what 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.320 that points to in the future. Yeah, and then also 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.240 the you know, our laptops are our gadgets. They become 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.280 an increasingly huge part of our lives. They really become 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.600 extensions of ourselves, you know. So it's you get the 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.640 virus in a way, it's it's not you know, it's 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.160 not threatening your body, but it's threatening this device that 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.520 allows you to communicate with a vast number of people. 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:43.800 Like in the old days, if you caught a virus 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.160 and it kept you from talking to your mom, it 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.200 meant that it was, you know, somehow in in inhibiting 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.960 your ability to speak. But you can conceivably get a 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.480 get a virus now, and it's like, oh, I can't 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.600 you skype anymore. I can't talk to my mom until 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.600 I get a cure for this. Well, and this is 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.080 the crazy thing too. I mean, you could take this 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.600 one step further and look at the guy who uh 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.200 and sorted the r f I D chip into his hand, 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.080 Dr Mark Gasson from the University of Reading. He and 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:09.720 he did this on purpose. It was a proof of 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.399 concept thing. He was contaminating this r f I D 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.960 chip and then you know, putting it under his skin. Um. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:18.720 And of course he was using an actually for a 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.320 purpose other than that. It was access to his building, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.199 and it also identified himself to his cell phone or 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.399 to his modbile and then he went on like a 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:33.120 day a blind date with a really scheezy PC. Right. Well, yes, okay, 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.600 yes he doesn't talk about that a lot though, But 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.879 what he does talk about, um, is that because he 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.159 gave himself this virus essentially in this r f I 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.520 D chip, that he could then pass that virus onto 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.000 all the technology that associated with him. So some people 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.240 were calling him a scaremonger. You know, this is a 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:56.160 could happen, might happen situation, But he was basically saying, well, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.440 look at Pacemaker's UM, look at other implants bringing him plants, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.359 all the other technology, cochlear implants that we have available 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:10.160 to us. Cochlear. What's the cochlear it's an inner ear. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Yeah. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.840 I was thinking of the tailbone for some reason, the 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.280 coss cossacks. I'm like, why, why would have someone have 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.639 an electronic implant on the cossacks would be kind of awesome, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.160 like an electronic vestigial tail doesn't my vestigial tail implant. Yeah, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.359 it kind of turns it into an antenna. Maybe. Yeah. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.080 I guess if you had subcutaneous horns and you just 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.880 wanted to, you know, make it like sort of fresh 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.240 for you can do the tail. Cool, we're putting it 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.400 out there. Yeah, I mean why not? Um, But anyway, 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.880 that is that's the huge concern is that we could 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.080 then with all our all our sort of cyborg like 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:49.480 technology coming on board, be able to transfer computer viruses 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.320 to one another, which is really trippy. Yeah, and certainly, yeah, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:55.959 this is the you see this idea to show up 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.280 in some science fiction, especially when you when you see 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.800 the lines blurred. Uh well a lot of science fiction. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:02.720 I guess when when when the lines are become blurred 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:08.280 between organic life and technology technological life, and you know, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:10.639 certainly you know, well I'm not even go into all 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.400 the variations, but you know, it's like you get into 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.600 a situation where where we're like entering a computer environment 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.960 or or or the human mind it's digitized, or just 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.560 just look at like any tin headlines, um um, you know, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.640 science headlines on the net and and think to yourself, oh, 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.399 what how would how how my computer viruses mess this 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.400 innovation up? When you know, if it's something talking about 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.119 oh they're using devices to see into people's dreams or 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:41.160 you know or whatever, there's I know, the possibilities are endless, right, 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.280 I mean I was even thinking about the podcast that 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.560 we did about the ways that we could modify ourselves, 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.040 and we talked about the exo skeleton and how something 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.280 like that could become infected. Of course, again people would 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.600 say this is scaremongering because it hasn't happened. But you know, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.480 there is r f I D chip and yes it 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.440 doesn't it doesn't X a Cutney code, right because it 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.959 just scans. But whatever is scanning that could have some 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:10.000 sort of UM security problem with it and and could 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.640 be UM infected. Right, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.640 not trying to raise the hackles here. I'm not trying 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.639 to get nuts. But I think it's pretty amazing. But 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.639 the really interesting thing is it's you know, viruses that 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.200 occur naturally, that's just a product of evolution, things evolving 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.840 and filling various niches out there. Uh two do what 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.560 organic or any kind of animal needs to do. But 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.280 but but human Uh computer viruses are man made. They 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.439 are created things. So it's it's like there's something in 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.720 us that just could not resist. We we had to. 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.600 You know, conceivably, we could have this this like pure 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.399 technological world and the Internet would just be flawless. There 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.639 would be there would be no viruses, there would be 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.080 no um, you know, virus scans popping up on your computer. 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.080 But we we just we just couldn't do it. We 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.919 just can't have nice things. We have to have to 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.480 create something that can that can can mess up the 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.159 other dude's computer and potentially mess up our own or 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.760 passing on our flaws. That's what you're saying. Yeah, it's 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.680 interesting that a lot of people will say that viruses 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.800 are just sloppy code. When you come down and in 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.760 sloppy code, I guess in not protecting it um systems 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.359 from viruses. Oh so it's like saying that it wouldn't 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:28.480 be a problem if the systems were more Yeah, um, 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.679 but I do. I think that's really interesting that you 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:35.240 say that, because, Um, Susan Blackmore and someone we've talked 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.440 about before. She's a memeticist and she's also a parasychologist. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.960 But in the skeptics camp. Does she have pink hair, blue, blue, yellow? 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.720 It depends on the day. Yeah. Yeah, she's kind of 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.200 got a wonderful rainbow of air. Because I've been looking 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.120 at our articles and then suddenly, like pictures were showing 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.560 up in Google Search, you know, the little Google image 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.480 search bar, and I'm like, whoa is that her? It 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.200 makes sense. She's she's into a lot of really cool areas. Yeah, yeah, she's. 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.679 She's a very interesting, um woman. And she actually if 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:04.520 you get our website, I think you'll probably see the 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.920 most recent picture of her hair. But other than her hair, um, 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.720 she's she's done some really um interesting research into this, 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.320 into memeticism, and and just to talk about this to 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.760 quick overview, a meme is basically just an idea that's 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:24.280 getting perpetuated, much like code or virus and um to 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.000 go back to like like l O L cat, like 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.439