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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show

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Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any views

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Speaker 1: expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners, There's been a

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Speaker 1: book sitting on my shelf for a few years, Blitzed

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Speaker 1: Drugs in the Third Reich, by a German award winning

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Speaker 1: novelist and screenwriter and journalist named Norman Older. It also

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Speaker 1: happens to be the book which I think more listeners

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Speaker 1: of Psychoactive have suggested I do an episode on than

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Speaker 1: any other. So we got in touch with Norman Olho

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Speaker 1: lives in Berlin and asked him if he'd come on

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Speaker 1: and talk about a book and so we can learn

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Speaker 1: more about the remarkable story and history of the use

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Speaker 1: of stimulants, speed and other drugs by the German military

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Speaker 1: and other militaries, and also about Hitler and his personal

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Speaker 1: use of these drugs. So Norman, thank you ever so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me on Psychoactive. Thank you for having

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Speaker 1: me on your podcast. I'm very happy to talk about

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Speaker 1: this subject. So let's just get started, I mean, before

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Speaker 1: we launched into what's going to happen during World War

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Speaker 1: Two with the battle between the Axis and the Allies,

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Speaker 1: between Germany and its allies and and Britain, the UK

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Speaker 1: and eventually the Soviet Union. But let's set the context

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Speaker 1: for this. And there's a sense of you know, vym

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Speaker 1: Our Germany of the period of Germany before Hitler comes

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Speaker 1: to power ninety three as being a fairly decadent period, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know in Berlin. So if you could just set

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Speaker 1: the stage for us about the nature of drug use

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Speaker 1: before Hitler comes to power and how the Nazis approached that. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: the puled Wima Republic which started in nineteen eighteen after

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Speaker 1: Germany lost the First World War and ended in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty three when the Nazis took power, so it lasted

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Speaker 1: for about fifteen years. During that period, apparently there was

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Speaker 1: quite a liberal approach to the usage of drugs. There

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Speaker 1: were drug laws in place, but they were not enforced.

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Speaker 1: There was no drug police in Germany, and Berlin became

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Speaker 1: famous for basically it's drug culture. It was very cheap

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Speaker 1: to acquire drugs. You could get a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: in the pharmacies, but there was also a huge black market.

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Speaker 1: There was a big drug tourism coming into place, kind

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Speaker 1: of like now. People from all over the world traveled

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Speaker 1: to Berlin to go to the famous clubs and take drugs.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of similar in the twenties. This also

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Speaker 1: had to do with Lost War. Many german Men were

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Speaker 1: addicted to morphine. They got morphine legally from the state

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Speaker 1: and then they became addicted to it, and then they

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Speaker 1: used heroin, for example, which was still a legal product

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Speaker 1: manufactured by the company Baia, which also manufacturers still today aspirin.

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Speaker 1: So heron and aspirin were their main success product. So

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Speaker 1: themar Republic was, I guess uh, a free and liberal

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Speaker 1: and a bit of a crazy time. And imagine cocaine

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Speaker 1: plays quite a role in those days as well. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's the ultimate party drug. It's popular, widely available, right,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, apparently cocaine was quite on vogue at the time,

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Speaker 1: you could buy it in restaurants from the waiters. There

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Speaker 1: were movies made about cocaine, and cocaine wasn't so ostracized

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Speaker 1: as it is I think rightly so today, but at

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Speaker 1: the time it was considered to be like a like

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Speaker 1: a high society drug. Also, Sigmund Freud developed psychoanalysis on cocaine,

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Speaker 1: So using cocaine with kind of chic and maybe it

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Speaker 1: would expand your mind, which I think it doesn't. But

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Speaker 1: you know, cocaine was everywhere, I suppose in Berlin, in

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Speaker 1: certain circles. And the Nazis hated this liberal approach to

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Speaker 1: drugs because they propagated a clean Germany, a Germany without

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Speaker 1: any poisons. And this was for them a holistic approach.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the poisons could be racial, it could be

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Speaker 1: racist that they thought were poisonous, that these could be

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Speaker 1: substances that they thought were poisonous. So um an anti

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Speaker 1: drug policy was in in in in an important part

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Speaker 1: of the whole Nazi approach to policy making from the

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Speaker 1: top in a way. I mean, Hitler himself is a teetotaler, right,

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Speaker 1: doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, He's vegetarian, so part of his

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Speaker 1: whole thing. I mean, on the one hand, there's his

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Speaker 1: you know, infamous and horrific anti Semitism in mind comp

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Speaker 1: and all of this. But there's another part of him,

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Speaker 1: which is this kind of body purest which seems to

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Speaker 1: you know, permeate some of the Nazi way of thinking

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Speaker 1: about this right well not. The ideology was heavily into

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Speaker 1: physical fitness, and that's why it was also an anti

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Speaker 1: alcohol movement in a way, even though a lot of

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Speaker 1: Nazis were drinking and never stopped drinking. But Hitler portrayed

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Speaker 1: himself as this health freak in a way that would

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Speaker 1: not put any poisons into his body. And he expanded

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Speaker 1: this view into the idea of the body of a people.

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Speaker 1: So the whole German people basically have one body. So

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Speaker 1: you are not free to you know, poison your own body,

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Speaker 1: because your body is part of a bigger body. Everyone

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Speaker 1: is supposed to. This was called the health dictatorship. Everyone's

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Speaker 1: supposed to live healthily, otherwise you'd endanger others ideas which

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Speaker 1: actually are still popular today in in in completely different scenarios.

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Speaker 1: But the Nazis were very much into this authoritarian approach

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Speaker 1: to health and what to do to stay healthy, and

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Speaker 1: Hitler was the shining example, and he really was not

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Speaker 1: using any toxins until you know, much later, So in

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Speaker 1: the beginning he was also the shining example in his

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Speaker 1: own movement, because his own movement were basically all you know,

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Speaker 1: when they first marched in Munich in Nree to take

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Speaker 1: over power ten years before they managed to do so

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Speaker 1: in the whole of Germany, they were all drunk. They

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Speaker 1: were basically drinking the whole night in the Bavarian beer horn.

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Speaker 1: In the morning they thought, now we're going to take

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Speaker 1: over power, which miserably failed, and maybe that was one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why he does it from now on. Also,

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Speaker 1: there will be no more drinking you know, rains and

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Speaker 1: obviously no no other drugs. We have to be always

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Speaker 1: you know, clear and clean and fit. M I mean,

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Speaker 1: to some extent the anti alcohol thing. There was his

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Speaker 1: broader sort of temperance movement in the Western world, where

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Speaker 1: the US and parts of Scandinavy of Russia Canada actually

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Speaker 1: went to some measure of alcohol prohibition and are broader temperance.

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Speaker 1: Germany was not unique in this regard or the Nazis

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Speaker 1: or Hitler even I mean, the anti alcohol thing was

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Speaker 1: somewhat you know, consistent. But what was more distinctive right

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Speaker 1: about Hitler was that in his focus on targeting the

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Speaker 1: Jews and blaming the Jews for everything, right, he equated

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Speaker 1: I think this is in your book. He equated Jews

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Speaker 1: with pathogens and bacteria and poison, and they became equated

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Speaker 1: in some form with bad drugs. Right. And then when

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Speaker 1: the persecution begins after Hitler becomes to power in thirty three,

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Speaker 1: it's Jews, it's gypsies what aren aw called roma, and

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Speaker 1: it's drug users I guess, homosexuals and others who become

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Speaker 1: part of the sort of broader demonized classes who are

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Speaker 1: brain plained for bringing down the bringing down the country.

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Speaker 1: Well that's exactly true. Um, you I have nothing to add, actually, okay,

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Speaker 1: you just put it very very well. Well, let me

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Speaker 1: shift to the other theme that's going on. Right. So

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Speaker 1: you have this kind of drug culture in Weimar Germany,

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Speaker 1: and then Hitler come into power in thirty three and

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Speaker 1: a very strong anti drug thing mixed in with anti

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Speaker 1: Semitism and anti other quote unquote deviant minorities. But you

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Speaker 1: also have Germany which is this sort of industrial and

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Speaker 1: also chemical powerhouse, Right, you have some of the leading

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutical firms in the world, right, I think Mark which

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Speaker 1: we all know about today, and Bear which you mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: but also Tembler and Burringer. And Germany is the workshop

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Speaker 1: of the world, you write in your book. You know,

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Speaker 1: made in Germany is a guarantee of quality, especially for drugs.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a little more about that pioneering role

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Speaker 1: in global influence of the German pharmaceutical industry in the

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Speaker 1: late nineteenth and into the twentieth century. Well, yeah, as

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Speaker 1: you just said, this started already in the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: Germany was um the biggest industry in Europe already, but

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Speaker 1: it didn't have any colonies unlike France or Britain. And

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Speaker 1: the need to consume stimulants, which for example, drove the

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Speaker 1: British Empire into importing tea just to have this tea

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Speaker 1: time at around four or five pm, which gives you

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Speaker 1: like another boost or kick. Germany had to, you know,

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Speaker 1: look for other ways to find stimulants. So what they

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Speaker 1: did was to produce them pharmaceutically, and the late nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century became very good time for German pharmaceutical industries because

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Speaker 1: he didn't need a lot of raw materials. It basically

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Speaker 1: needed brain power to develop medicines. So, as mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: heroin and aspirin were actually discovered within the same company

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Speaker 1: and within the time span of ten days by the

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Speaker 1: same chemist. So there was a lot of innovation going

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Speaker 1: on in the pharmaceutical industry in German. Bear puts out

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Speaker 1: aspen for a headache and heroin it could seemed thoroughly

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Speaker 1: in a pill form as a cost the present, right,

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Speaker 1: So they're pioneering in that area. Yeah, they were quite

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Speaker 1: confident that heron would be a big seller, which it

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Speaker 1: was in the beginning, and until people understood that it

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Speaker 1: actually forms an addiction. The beginning, they weren't even concerned

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Speaker 1: with this. They even suggested to give heroin to babies

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Speaker 1: who cannot sleep. It only makes sense because heron apparently

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Speaker 1: makes you, you know, relaxed and makes you fall asleep.

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Speaker 1: But it was a bit of a problem for the

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Speaker 1: Nazis because on the one hand, they didn't want people

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Speaker 1: to use those drugs anymore. On the other hand, they

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Speaker 1: wanted to boost the German pharmaceutical industry because they dependent

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Speaker 1: on a working German economy. And we can see how

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Speaker 1: they solved this dilemma for example, with the Temla company

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Speaker 1: in Berlin, because they manufactured methamphetamine for the first time

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six, came onto the market in night,

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Speaker 1: and the Nazis simply said that this is not a drug.

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Speaker 1: It's was totally illegal. So Temla could you know, make

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Speaker 1: a huge profit from it. Yeah, I think you wrote

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Speaker 1: there that they actually launched a major advertising campaign based

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Speaker 1: upon Coca Cola's advertising campaign. Well, they thought that they

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Speaker 1: had developed something similar to Coca Cola, but better. I

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Speaker 1: mean the tastes, you know, there's no taste to it.

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Speaker 1: It's just a pill. But it had a very refreshing

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Speaker 1: effect on the consumers back in the days. And people

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Speaker 1: back then didn't know, you know, they were like, we

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Speaker 1: drink coffee all the time, or tea or very refined

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Speaker 1: you know, tease, and we basically stimulate ourselves in the

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Speaker 1: Western societies all the time. But in Germany and the

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Speaker 1: thirties was a new thing. So there was suddenly this

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Speaker 1: pill on the market which you took. It was pure

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Speaker 1: meThe and phetomine. It was manufactured by a Berlin company,

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Speaker 1: so there was a quality product. It was not high dosage.

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Speaker 1: It was three milligrams, but still you could feel like

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Speaker 1: you take a pill, you feel like a slow so

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Speaker 1: you feel it coming on slowly and then you have

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Speaker 1: like a boost your more targative, which was good at

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Speaker 1: the time because you were Germany was just a capitalist country,

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Speaker 1: so people were competing against each other, companies were competing

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Speaker 1: with each other, so having this little booster of methemphetamine

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Speaker 1: was considered to be very beneficial, and other countries didn't

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Speaker 1: have this, so the German economy used the methemphetamine to

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Speaker 1: produce more and be ahead in the race of the

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Speaker 1: nations in Europe in the late thirties. Well, you also

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Speaker 1: write about how you know I mean first when the

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Speaker 1: campaign was launched by the manufacturer Tembler, they also directed

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Speaker 1: the campaign at m d s and the doctors, suggesting

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Speaker 1: they try it themselves, not unlike you saw it happen

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Speaker 1: with oxycontent and Perdue Farm and other pharmaceutical companies in

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Speaker 1: the US twenty I years ago, and I think they

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Speaker 1: promoted it, which is oftentimes the case with any new

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Speaker 1: drug as both the substitute for other things like alcoholic

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Speaker 1: cocainet even opioids, and as a cure for addiction to

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Speaker 1: those substances, right, and there was a broader kind of

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Speaker 1: sexual connotation that helps sex and energy and performance and

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Speaker 1: work and and all this sort of stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess in a way, you know, no society, or

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Speaker 1: almost no society is going to be really drug free,

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Speaker 1: free of all psychoactive drugs. To almost every society finds

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Speaker 1: ways that are for the forbidden ones, and then the

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Speaker 1: ones which are the sanctioned ones, the ones which are

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Speaker 1: authorized or permitted. And for Germany, it sounds like the

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Speaker 1: meth amphetamine, which I think marketed as pervitin, becomes that

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Speaker 1: drug in the late nineteen thirties, you know, that's exactly true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it became very interesting even to the regime

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Speaker 1: when um, someone who worked for the German army, professor

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Speaker 1: called Ranca, realized that it decreases your need to sleep,

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Speaker 1: and then he's he started, um, he started testing it

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Speaker 1: on medical officers to find out whether this drug might

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Speaker 1: actually be useful for the German army. And then matthan

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Speaker 1: pheedom in, which before was making the German civilians civil

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Speaker 1: society more productive, suddenly became a drug that the military

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Speaker 1: took an interest in. M hmm. So you're describe in

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Speaker 1: your book. You know this fellow Auto Rank who is

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Speaker 1: the head of the Research Institute of Defense Physiology, and

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Speaker 1: he's introducing it while at the same time using it

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Speaker 1: and at the same time having certain qualms. And then

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Speaker 1: you've sort of present his antagonist, Leo Conti, the health

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Speaker 1: fear of the Reich right, who has you know, doesn't

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Speaker 1: not formal authority over the military, but he's got the

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Speaker 1: authority to regulator banned drugs for the broader society. So

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Speaker 1: talk about some of that conflict and tensions within the

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Speaker 1: military between these guys, and more broadly about whether or

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Speaker 1: not to allow the use of meth amphetamine among the soldiers.

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Speaker 1: No one thought that pevatine could have any side efactor,

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Speaker 1: that there were any problems connected with pevteen. So also

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Speaker 1: Ranka had no, we didn't have any second thoughts. He

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Speaker 1: just read studies that decreases the need to sleep, and

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Speaker 1: then he made um tests with medical officers and he realized, yes,

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Speaker 1: they can stay awake for longer periods. So he got

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Speaker 1: in touch with the surgeon general, the Nazi surgeon General,

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Speaker 1: suggesting that it should be a regular drug for the

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Speaker 1: for the German military, which it became in April nineteen forty,

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Speaker 1: just before Germany attacked France, it was integrated and dished

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Speaker 1: out to all the medical officers. They received a so

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Speaker 1: called stimulant Decree which Ranko wrote, which described how many

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Speaker 1: pills each soldier should take in the battle situation. And

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Speaker 1: German military made good experiences with this drug. The German

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Speaker 1: soldiers were very successful in the in these early campaigns

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Speaker 1: in the West, and before that also in Poland were

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Speaker 1: also matthem Phetamine was already used, but not officially yet.

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Speaker 1: So for our listeners, they may they may not know

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Speaker 1: the history of World War two all that. Well, the

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Speaker 1: invasion of Poland in late nineteen thirty nine precipitates the

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Speaker 1: beginning of World War two. I mean, the US has

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Speaker 1: it entered for a couple more years until late forty

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Speaker 1: one when we're attacked by the Japanese. But that's when Britain,

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Speaker 1: France and the others enter. And you're saying that in

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Speaker 1: that invasion the Poland by the Germans in late thirty nine,

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Speaker 1: you're already seeing pervtin not amphetamine being used widely, but

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Speaker 1: not with the official or specified encouragement of the senior

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Speaker 1: military leadership. Is that right? Well, Ranco wanted it to

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Speaker 1: be an official drug already in August nine, one month

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Speaker 1: before the attack on Poland, but his supervisor basically didn't

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Speaker 1: understand what he was talking about. A drug that's supposed

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Speaker 1: to help on the battlefield, that was very new and

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Speaker 1: advanced thinking that wasn't understood yet. But because pervyteen was

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Speaker 1: quite popular, what was quite known in Germany, many soldiers

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Speaker 1: just carried it in their pockets and when they were

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Speaker 1: in the field in Poland, there's you know, there's many

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Speaker 1: letters where they right back even to their parents saying

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Speaker 1: send me more pavyteen I needed for my job here

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Speaker 1: in the military. So Ranca also, you know, looked at these,

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Speaker 1: he looked at how how did it work in Poland?

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Speaker 1: And if he found out that it worked very well

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Speaker 1: for the German army, And so what you're suggesting also

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Speaker 1: if young soldiers are writing home, dear mom and dad,

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Speaker 1: can you send me more of this meth amphetamine? At

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Speaker 1: that point between ninete it was very culturally accepted, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was nobody saw much of a problem

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Speaker 1: with it. No, no one saw a problem with it.

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Speaker 1: It was basically like Coca cola. So why why would

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Speaker 1: there be a problem. Whether you just go to the shop,

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Speaker 1: which in that case was a drug store and you

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Speaker 1: buy pavty and you take it and you're happy and

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Speaker 1: in a better mood. And if your soldier, you can

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Speaker 1: fight better because you have less fear when you're in

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Speaker 1: mathem fhetamine. You're not afraid to go into dangerous situations.

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Speaker 1: You have more you know, zest somehow, or more enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: to fight other people, which is, you know, not a

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Speaker 1: normal thing, you know, to fight other people. So it's

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Speaker 1: better to be on drugs, I suppose, at least on mathemphetamine.

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Speaker 1: So i'm I saw this and he read all these reports.

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Speaker 1: He asked a lot of officers to send them reports.

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Speaker 1: How was mathemphetamine used in the campaign against poland didn't work?

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Speaker 1: Did increase the morale of the troops and mostly the

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Speaker 1: feedback was positive. So he he again went to a

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Speaker 1: supervisor before the French campaign and said, we have to

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Speaker 1: make this drug official because then we could use it

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Speaker 1: more efficient and this was done so when Germany attacked

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Speaker 1: France on May ten, nineteen thirty five million doses of

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Speaker 1: methamphetamine were given out and it enabled the German soldiers

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Speaker 1: to fulfill what Hitler had ordered of the German troops

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Speaker 1: which was too advance, very fast, advanced in a speedy way.

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Speaker 1: That's why it was called the blitz Click the speedy war,

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Speaker 1: and reached the French border city of Sudant within three

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Speaker 1: days and three nights without stopping, without sleeping. This was

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Speaker 1: a new tactic too, basically not sleep. This was no

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Speaker 1: one had ever no army in the world had ever

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Speaker 1: done this too, to march for three days and three nights,

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Speaker 1: because no human being can stay awake for three days

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Speaker 1: and three nights without an artificial stimulant, but with methamphetamine

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Speaker 1: is actually possible. So the German army used this no

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Speaker 1: longer time window of being able to be active to

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Speaker 1: overrun the enemies which had to go to sleep. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, when RANKI gets interested in this, his

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Speaker 1: initial interest, right is to find the drug encounters fatigue

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Speaker 1: and exhaustion, which is seen as the number one enemy

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Speaker 1: of sort of military efficiency both in the air and

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Speaker 1: on the ground. Tank pilots, infantry, you know, fighter pilots, bombers,

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Speaker 1: you name it. And so that's the focus. And presumably

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Speaker 1: until that point soldiers had relied on coffee. Right in caffeine.

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Speaker 1: I don't think have caffeine pills. Back then, they had

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Speaker 1: relied nicotine is a bit of a stimulant. So obviously

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Speaker 1: soldiers had used other stimulants. It's just that none of

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Speaker 1: them seemed to compare to nothing amphetamine. Well, using stimulants

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Speaker 1: is as old as you know, fighting a war. But

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Speaker 1: as you said, there was never an effective and strong

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Speaker 1: drug like methemphetamine. You just cannot compare smoking a cigarette

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Speaker 1: or drinking alcohol to taking a high dosage of methamphetamine

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Speaker 1: which releases all of your dopamine in the brain immediately

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Speaker 1: and you just totally wired for a few hours. So

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Speaker 1: this was a new type of stimulant, a much much

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Speaker 1: more potent type of stimulant, which then gave the Germans

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Speaker 1: an edge in these speedy campaigns. Yeah, you say in

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Speaker 1: the book, and I apologize for my pronunciation of the

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Speaker 1: German which I don't know, but that the German army,

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Speaker 1: the Vermont, was thus the first army in the world

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Speaker 1: to rely on a chemical drug, and that the Germans

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Speaker 1: gained more territory in one hundred hours during that list

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Speaker 1: Greek you know, west toward the Atlantic Ocean than they

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Speaker 1: had in four years of World War One. So it

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Speaker 1: was really I mean it sounds like that that campaign,

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Speaker 1: that short campaign last thing with some weeks or a month.

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Speaker 1: You know, we just had this absolutely stunning impact and

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Speaker 1: in terms of having the Germans feel, my god, we

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Speaker 1: are on top of the world, nobody can stop us,

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Speaker 1: and of creating a sense of fear and intimidation among

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Speaker 1: the French and the British and the Belgians and everybody

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Speaker 1: else going my god, what has happened. We had more troops,

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Speaker 1: we had more tanks, we had more planes, and now

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Frances signing his surrender and Belgian

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Speaker 1: and surrender, and the Brits are fling back home. And

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Speaker 1: you're basically claim you make and I think which professional

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Speaker 1: historians have you know, generally backed you up on this.

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Speaker 1: You know that you make a powerful case that this

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Speaker 1: could not have been possible without the use of that

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Speaker 1: the amphetomy. Well, it's important to understand that simply feeding

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Speaker 1: soldiers them phetamine doesn't automatically turn them into victorious soldiers.

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Speaker 1: Um the strategy that the Germans had, which was to

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Speaker 1: go through the Adenne Mountains and not attack from the

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Speaker 1: north of Belgium, where Germany for example, had attacked in

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Speaker 1: World War One. This was actually decisive because that enabled

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Speaker 1: the Germans to be faster in France than the defending

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Speaker 1: French and Belgian armies, which were you know, expecting the

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Speaker 1: Germans to attack in Belgium. But this fast move, this

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Speaker 1: thrust through the Adenne Mountains, it was only possible because

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Speaker 1: of methamphetamine. So it was the combination of the strategy

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Speaker 1: with the drug that was so successful. Umm. Yeah. Much

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Speaker 1: of the credits given, I guess to two particular generals,

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Speaker 1: Guderian and then probably the one German general that many

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Speaker 1: Americans have heard of, Rammel. I mean, they just drive

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Speaker 1: ahead NonStop, They and their troops driven to some extent

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Speaker 1: by methi amphetamine. Hitler himself back home in Berlin is

387
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Speaker 1: stunned by all of this. Darion and Ramel suggests that

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Speaker 1: the tanks would be the avant garde of the campaign.

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Speaker 1: So the tanks would be in the forefront of the

390
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Speaker 1: of the front. You know, they would be not backing

391
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Speaker 1: up the artillery like it was done in World War One,

392
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Speaker 1: but they would have a completely different role this world,

393
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Speaker 1: was to storm ahead and surprise the enemy. So this

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Speaker 1: was actually the genius way of using tanks, and for example,

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Speaker 1: the Americans have used the tanks in the similar fashion

396
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Speaker 1: when they attacked Iraq. So this but this was a

397
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Speaker 1: new way of using tanks. And I studied the distribution

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00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: of the methemphetamine and I found, for example, that Rommel's

399
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: tank division was using huge amounts of methamphetamine, and Romel

400
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: also was a methamphetamine lover, so they just they would

401
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: just you know, high on meth basically the whole time,

402
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: storming ahead, doing things that no one had ever done

403
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Speaker 1: on the battlefield, not waiting for other units to come

404
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: and back them up, and then slowly moved together. They

405
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: were just moving ahead, but still connected to the air force.

406
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: So that the other very important tactical advantage the Germans

407
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: had was to be able to link the Luftwaffer and

408
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: the tank troops. So you had the storming tanks on

409
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Speaker 1: the ground and the Luftwaffer in the air kind of

410
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, backing them up and making sure that their

411
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Speaker 1: path is clear. And also the Luftwaffe was using huge

412
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Speaker 1: amounts of pavteen, so the pilots could actually be more

413
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Speaker 1: alert in the air for more hours. So these you know,

414
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Speaker 1: pavoteen crazed pilots and pavoten driven tanks on the ground

415
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: made this unbeatable their market phenomenon, at least in the

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Speaker 1: so called blitz Creek. We'll be talking more after we

417
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Speaker 1: hear this add So, I'm trying to get a understanding

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Speaker 1: of what were the directives and understanding about how methamphetamine

419
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: should be used, because if you start using it on

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Speaker 1: a routine basis, or you start taking the amphetamine many

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00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: hours before you're even going into combat, or you start

422
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: increasing doses or you're developing tolerance, you can see all

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Speaker 1: the ways in which this drug can you know, turn out,

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Speaker 1: where the downsides can you know, turn against you, and

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00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: where all the negative consequences of amphetamine use that are

426
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: widely known around the world today begin to emerge. And so,

427
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: I mean, did you have a sense of German leadership

428
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Speaker 1: trying to get more discipline and rigorous about when and

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00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: how fighter pilots, long distance pilots, tank commanders, tanking, you know,

430
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: infantry should use the drug or is it always just

431
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: kind of given out with a kind of you know,

432
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: take two before combat type of message on it. I mean,

433
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: in the beginning, the only regulation was the Stimulant Decree,

434
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: which said to take two pills I think it was

435
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: two hours before the beginning of combat and then take

436
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: like another one if you feel the need for it.

437
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It gave some intervals for the

438
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: for the doctors to use it, and apparently these these

439
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: intervals were were good because it was successful. But the

440
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: more that science knew about the drug, obviously the more

441
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: there was talking about side effects, because we know today

442
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: there are side effects. So this became known. But it

443
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: took a while. I mean the drug came onto the

444
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: market and thirty age it was used massively in the

445
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: French campaign and forty and in forty one. This starts

446
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: popping up. Actually already in the fall of there was

447
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: this Leo Conti that you mentioned before, the the health

448
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: purer of the Reich. You found out that it builds

449
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: up tolerance and that addiction will come, and that it

450
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: has negative side effects, et cetera. So Leo County warrant.

451
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: The German military said, maybe in a blitz campaign this

452
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: might work, but in a in a longer military conflict

453
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: in Germany entered along a military conflict in the summer

454
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: of night forty one, when it attacked the Soviet Union,

455
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: it might actually be of disadvantage because it wears people,

456
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: wears them out if they used too much. They need

457
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: to increase the dosage. People become depressed when they don't

458
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: have to drug anymore. So County became the enemy of Pevty.

459
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: He tried to stop it, and there's interesting correspondence between

460
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: him and the Virmat's surgeon general claiming that the MT

461
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: is doing whatever the MMA wants to do. Because County

462
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: was was a minister, the secretary secretary of health basically,

463
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: so he was responsed, well, not for the army, not

464
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: for the military, but for you know, the normal civil

465
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: German society. So the army said whatever, you know, decided

466
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: we don't, We don't really care. We make our own

467
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: we make up our own rules. And the RMAT was

468
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: so drunk by these early victories that they thought, you know,

469
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: we have such a wonderful pill in our hand. Why

470
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: would we, you know, listen to some some secretary of

471
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: health who tells us that maybe this would be dangerous.

472
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: But if it turns out that when in fact, you know,

473
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: Hitler decides to invade the Soviet Union in June forty one,

474
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: Operation Barbarossa that turns into a war of attrition, and

475
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: that's the place where pervatin that's amphetamine, is actually probably

476
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: going to do more harm than good. Right. The attack

477
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: on the Soviet Jinia was also planned as a speed war,

478
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: as a blitz creek, because that was basically the only

479
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: strategy that Germany had was to surprise the enemy and

480
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: overrun the enemy within a very short period of time.

481
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: Because basically Germany was economically not able to beat the

482
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: whole world and beat every country. It's it's it's a

483
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: ridiculous idea. It only was able to do these surprise

484
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: attacks and the Soviet the attack on the Civiet Union

485
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: was also a surprise attack. So Hitler basically that the thought,

486
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, when when no one expects us to do

487
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: such a thing, we're going to do it. And hundreds

488
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: of millions of pills of heavyteen were dished out, and

489
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: it actually helped. In the beginning, I mean the first

490
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: three months of the campaign, Germany was almost able to

491
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: destroy the Soviet Union. They were very close to taking Moscow,

492
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: but they just didn't manage to do it. And then

493
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: when the Red Army was able to recuperate from the

494
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: early losses, the Red Army was able to recuperate and

495
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: to you know, throw new battalions into the into the battles,

496
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: and then it became a long drawn out war and

497
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: basically Germany was not able, would never have been able

498
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: to sustain in that war and win that when that

499
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: war and Pevytin basically but didn't play a role anymore.

500
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: I talked to one medical officer which I could interview

501
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: from my book, who was obviously an old gentleman. When

502
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: I met him, he remembered quite well when he was

503
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: in staling Grad and he gave out pevyteen still in Stalingrad,

504
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: and he said to me that he knew that this

505
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: was not turned around the battle or even the war,

506
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: but at the time, you know that the soldiers were

507
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: hungry and exhausted from years of fighting. So pevyteen gave

508
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: them like a little extra energy. But then you know

509
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: it was paid again with a higher price because after

510
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: the war off it was even worse than before. So

511
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: pevyteen in the long run didn't help the German They

512
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: probably had negative effects, but even without those negative effects,

513
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: the German army would not have had a chance to

514
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: achieve what the leadership wanted them to achieve. Once you

515
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: get past the initial pushing to the Soviet Union in

516
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: four the one. It's hard to point a major campaigns

517
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: where the use of methamphetamine made a significant difference. No,

518
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: I think the significance kind of decreased after forty one,

519
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: because then it became a long drawn out war and

520
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: the speed really helps short term in the long drawn

521
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: out or even the alcohol is better, like the Red

522
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: Army always used vodka. You can drink vodka over years,

523
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: and obviously you might become an alcoholic, but it's it's

524
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: not the same as becoming a speedhead and needing to

525
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: use methamphetamine the whole time. M So after forty one,

526
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: probably the methymphetamine was not decisive anymore. You know, it's

527
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: interesting I was reading while after I read your book,

528
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: I was reading some other articles and scanning through some

529
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: other books about the use of stimulants during war and

530
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: both in your book and also you know, you point

531
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: out that after this happens the British. You know, firstly

532
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: they do these propaganda films that the only reason the

533
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: Germans beat us is because they had these you know,

534
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: hyper drugs that were helping them do what they do.

535
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: But then the British start doing all their own sorts

536
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: of controlled experiments, I think to an even greater degree

537
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: than the German scientists had, and they're trying to figure

538
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: out is this about just reducing fatigue and exhaustion. Is

539
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: it about making people smarter, faster reflexes? Is it about morale?

540
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: Is it about losing fear? And you can see all

541
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: these debates among these different scientists in the UK and

542
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: the US. The US develops benz adrina for another form

543
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: of amphetamine somewhat similar to than meth amphetamine, to the

544
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: perfect ten, and they start using it, right, I mean

545
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: in the battle in North Africa, right, you know, Rammel's

546
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: gone down to North Africa and now the British Senator

547
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: General Montgomery, and he orders lots of benzadrine amphetamine for

548
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: his troops. He sees it as building morale and giving confidence.

549
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: The US starts using these We know the Japanese we're

550
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: going big time to the use of these drugs as well,

551
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: so they clearly it clearly begins to play a role

552
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: for all the militaries. But what we also comes out

553
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: in your book is that once you get past forty two,

554
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: and especially as you get towards forty four and forty five.

555
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: As things are increasingly turning against the Germans, against Hitler,

556
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: against the access powers, you see people pushing not just

557
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: for more pervatent, but you describe more and more using

558
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: drug combinations, in particular a form of oxy code on

559
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: that the Germans had created called you could all Right,

560
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: which had been invented I think back around the days

561
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: of World War One had become very popular and essentially

562
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: relying increasingly on speedballs and such. So it seems that

563
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: as things are getting worse and worse um for the

564
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: German army, they're relying on an ever greater array of

565
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: substances to try to deal with the prospects of defeat. Yeah,

566
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: they even came to trying to develop so called wonder

567
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: drug because I was always talking about wonder weapons that

568
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: they had up his sleeve, and to use some of

569
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: these wonder weapons, new types of drugs were actually needed.

570
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: Because one of his wonder weapons were the mini submarines,

571
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: which he thought Germany would produce in mass amounts. They

572
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: were met by one or two people, and when Germany

573
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: had lost all its big U boats, um, these small

574
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: mini submarines were still in the water trying to approach

575
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: the Allied warships and then took these are like one

576
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: or two person submarines with torpedoes attached. Basically there were many.

577
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: Even then, you could sneak up to a big ship

578
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: and and try to torpedo it. And for these missions,

579
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: they were looking for a drug that would keep soldiers

580
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: awake for five to seven days, which was even impossible

581
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: with methamphetamine, so they tried to drug combinations. They combined cocaine, methamphetamine,

582
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: you could all the oxycodon into a peal, which they

583
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: called D nine Drug nine, and it just chose how

584
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: desperate the German war effort became. I mean, it were

585
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: essentially almost Kamakazi efforts, right, and then you were taking

586
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: teenage soldiers, filling them with some combination of cocaine at

587
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: the amphetamine and oxy codon, putting him into these little

588
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: cubes where they could barely move around, and sending that

589
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: on missions from which probably the majority would never return. Right.

590
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: You know, the Germans officially never had suicide missions, but

591
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: these these missions literally became suicide missions because not many

592
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: of these young guys ever returned. The drugs itself that

593
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: they had to take was so horrendous that they were

594
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 1: lost control, they lost orientation, they didn't know anymore where

595
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: they were going, and then they were just you know,

596
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: destroyed by Western ships. So, Nora, I want to turn

597
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: now in the last part of this discussion to Adolf

598
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: Hitler and especially his relationship with a fascinating doctor named

599
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: Theodore Morrell, who was a specialist and dermatological and sexually

600
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: transmitted diseases, a pioneer and item in is, but also

601
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: a bit of a quack, and he becomes this absolutely

602
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: pivotal relationship for Adolf Hitler. And I think part of

603
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: what your book did was to uncover evidence of the

604
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: extent and depth of this relationship, both interpersonal and pharmacological,

605
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: that no historian had fully appreciated before. So tell us

606
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: something about that. No right historians have never really looked

607
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: at the role that Dio Morrell played, even though his

608
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: role is very interesting because my research showed that Morrell

609
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: spent more time with it than anybody else and had

610
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: quite a great influence on him. They were very close,

611
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: they were friends, and they basically spent every day together.

612
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: Um they first met in nineteen thirties six spaghetti dinner

613
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: in Munich, where Morrell was invited by Hoffmann, who was

614
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: the photographer of Hitler. Off One had been a patient

615
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: of Morrel. He had contracted a sexually transmitted disease and

616
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: Morrele cured him. So half One was very happy and

617
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: he said, you have to meet my friend, and his

618
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: friend was Hitler. So Morrel was sitting there at the

619
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: dinner totally nervous, and Hitler had stomach problems always, he

620
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: had problems with this digestion, and a Moral, who was

621
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: not only into vitamins but also into probiotics, which was

622
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: kind of new or very new at the time, suggested

623
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: that Hitler would take a probiotic to help him with

624
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: his digestion. And Hitler did this and it actually helped him.

625
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: So he thought, this Morale is a is a great doctor.

626
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: He achieved what no other doctor has achieved before. And

627
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: he appointed Morrel as his personal physician n six and

628
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: from that moment on the two men became almost symbiotic,

629
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: saying English maybe ah. So from forty one Hitler followed

630
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: Moral's suggestions to use a lot of vitamins and probiotics,

631
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: and he was very healthy actually, even though the mode

632
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: of application was a bit strange, perhaps because morel believed

633
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: in injecting things. He said it's much faster than taking

634
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: a medicine orally. Also, Hitler had his digestive problems, so

635
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: also injecting was better for him, and Hitler became used

636
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: to receiving his daily injection, and the injection had usually

637
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: a cocktail of vitamins and blue cothes and maybe some

638
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: other probiotic and things that would boost Hitler's health. And

639
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: this worked quite well until one when he was in

640
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: the heat of this campaign against the Soviet Union in

641
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: August ninety one, he became ill for the first time

642
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: him since Morrell was his doctor. He had the century

643
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: which came with a high temperature and flu types symptoms.

644
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: He felt very weak and he couldn't go to the

645
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: military briefing, and he said to Morele, you have to

646
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: give me something else, because he was Hitler was very

647
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: much concerned with the general's acting on their own terms.

648
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: If he wouldn't show up at the briefing, just like

649
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: they did in the French campaign when they were just

650
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: storming ahead, and he didn't understand anymore what was actually

651
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: happening on the battlefield, so he ordered Morel to give

652
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: him something stronger than just vitamins and morele for the

653
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: first time gave him an opioid, and Hitler, who had

654
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: developed his taste for strong acting injections, suddenly received an

655
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: injection that was much more powerful than anything he had

656
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: experienced before. And then he more and more asks morel

657
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: to give him stronger stuff, stronger than just vitamins and

658
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: morale being I guess you could call him an opportunist.

659
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: He was also very He's much, very much. He was

660
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: scared of his patient, patient A he called Hitler Adolf

661
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: a number one patients, so he basically did was what

662
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: his patient wanted. Hitler developed this term of immediate recoveries.

663
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: So whenever Hitler after one felt a bit weak or

664
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: insecure or tired, and he had to make big decisions

665
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: which he always had to make in the war. Every

666
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: day had to make more, you know, big decisions. So

667
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: he said to Morrella, need you know, stronger and stronger medications.

668
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: And Morrell basically delivered him these stronger medications and never

669
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: try to protect his patient from becoming addicted or you know,

670
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: using too many medicines. It sounds like, you know, every

671
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: day is different in terms of what Morrel's giving Hill, right,

672
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: he's playing around, not just with stimulants and opioids and

673
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: other psychoactive chemicals, but he's also using steroids and hormones.

674
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: He's designing things, he's invent think things. I mean, basically,

675
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: Hitler is the guinea pig who he has to find

676
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: a way to please day in, day out, and he

677
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: gets caught almost in a catch twenty two where he's

678
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: giving things that are making Hitler feel better but ultimately

679
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: resulting in his long term decline in his health. But

680
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: if he says no to Hitler, it endangers his relationship,

681
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: if not potentially his well being in life. I mean,

682
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: he really gets himself caught up into an impossible situation.

683
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, it was very difficult. He also

684
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: complained a lot to his wife's He's saying, this is

685
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,919
Speaker 1: the most difficult patient you could imagine, And I think

686
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: that's probably true because Nitla always thought he knows everything better,

687
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: and he was kind of an amateur, a fan of medicine,

688
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: so he's very interested in different developments, and so he

689
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: was encouraging Morrel to develop these hormonal concoctions. For example,

690
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: Morrell at one point at the monopoly on all the

691
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: organs of all slaughtered animals in all of the slaughter

692
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: houses of the Ukraine, which was a big deal because

693
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: the Ukraine is a big country and there were big

694
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: modern slaughter houses. And Morel got all the glands and

695
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: all the organs and the blood and everything was separated

696
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: during the slaughtering process and shipped to Morrel's company, which

697
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: was based in occupied Czechoslovakia. And then he made these

698
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: um these concoctions or like a pig's liver extract. And

699
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: and when he made a new concoction, he first tested

700
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: it on Hitler, and Hitler wanted to be the guinea pig.

701
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, tested on me. And even though Hitler

702
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: is a vegetarian, he's taking all of these things that

703
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: are coming from animal parts, knowing what you think, or

704
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: not knowingly. Well, he he got concerned with this fact

705
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: and he actually asked Morrell, can I Can I technically

706
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: still be called a vegetarian? And Morel said yes, if

707
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: you don't eat it, but if you actually get it intravenously,

708
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: it was still a vegetarian, which is very strange, you know.

709
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: But Hitler was fine with this argument, with this reasoning,

710
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: and so Hitler actually consumed, you know, very intense animal products,

711
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: and these animal products were not really tested on it,

712
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, anyone else except him, and if he liked it,

713
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: then these products were legalized for the German population, also

714
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: for the German army, because he does if it's good

715
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: for me, it's good for the German people. So basically

716
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: bypassing any type of bypassing any type of drug leglatory

717
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: process that the German state would have had in place

718
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: for the the German state had very strict you know,

719
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: they had very strict regulations. So it was basically impossible

720
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: after three to put a new product on the market

721
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: because you know, he had to go through test phases

722
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: and these test phase this couldn't be set up anymore

723
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: because it was a total war situation. Morrell complained to it,

724
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: like I said, I cannot put my new beautiful inventions

725
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: on the market. And that's when Hitler said, okay, just

726
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: we bypassed that. You just give it to me if

727
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: I like it, and make a decree a few decree,

728
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: and then it's going to be on the market. This

729
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: was totally ridiculous way to to go ahead, but that's

730
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: how it went ahead. And you know this, this is

731
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: how the whole dictatorship went ahead. You know, Hitler was

732
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: just deciding everything and obviously making many bad decisions. That

733
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: that's why Germany, you know, catastrophically lost this war, because

734
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: it was just one man thinking. Do you describe all

735
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: these instances of his you know, telling Dr Morrell, give

736
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: me something, I need something. I have a big meeting

737
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: with the general staff or with my ministers or whatever,

738
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: and you've got to get me up. And then he

739
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: so he takes these things that make him feel kind

740
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: of empowered and bold in the same way that prevoc

741
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: perfect and had with the soldiers a few years ago,

742
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: and obviously influencing the decision making he's doing, and I

743
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: guess creating an ever greater laylevel of delusion about what

744
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: his armed forces could achieve. What I spoke at length

745
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: with Hans moms And, who was the leading historian on

746
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: national socialism, and he thought that I somehow provided an

747
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: answer to what historians have labeled as the delusion of Hitler,

748
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: or how Hitler moreanma is removed from reality. And the

749
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: drugs play quite an interesting part in this, because he

750
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: created this artificial world that was you know, going through

751
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 1: his blood. I mean, he was he he made sure

752
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: that he would feel good and that he would think

753
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: that he's ahead of everyone and always has, you know,

754
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: the right correct decisions. But this was basically a drug

755
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: delusion or a delusion in general, and he used drugs

756
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: to you know, to keep this tunnel vision and to

757
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: keep this delusion and by removing himself more and more

758
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: from reality. Obviously, this had catastrophic effects for the German

759
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: military because the generals were actually quite you know, they

760
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: were very smart, they were trained, they were educated. They

761
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: wanted to discuss the situation among themselves that make suggestions

762
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 1: how to react to the situation on the battlefield, you know,

763
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: what to do. But then there was this totally crazy

764
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 1: hitler who just said no, no, no, you don't know anything.

765
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: We'll do it like this, and he was micromanaging everything

766
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: and he just he basically ran the whole thing against

767
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: the wall. Let's take a break here and go to

768
00:47:46,680 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: an ad you know, you talk about that. By forty two, also,

769
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: what's happening as his decision making declines. But he's also

770
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: rarely giving those incredibly charismatic speeches he used to give

771
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: in the twenties and nineteen thirties, and that those speeches

772
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: were on the one hand, and sort of intoxicant for him.

773
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: I mean, they gave him this little I can relate

774
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: to that as somebody who gave you know, hundreds, if

775
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: not thousands of speeches. Doing that gives a kind of rush,

776
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: a high. And for Hitler doing it, this extraordinary thing.

777
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 1: There must have been that, and all of a sudden

778
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: he's more and more, you know, isolated. We sometimes talk

779
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: about the role of drugs, set and setting in the

780
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: issue of psychoactive drugs. It is not just the drug

781
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: that has the impact, but it's the set and setting.

782
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: And you describe him basically, you know, hunkering down in

783
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: a place called the Wolf's Layer, essentially a large bunker

784
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: complex I think in eastern Germany more or less for

785
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: three years from the summer of forty one to forty four.

786
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: So he's kind of isolated. He's meeting with his senior commanders,

787
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: but he's not out there talking to the crowds. He's

788
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: not getting that sort of feedback. Drugs are playing every

789
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: greater role. And then in his own delusion, he sort

790
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: of sees himself and this is your description of the book,

791
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: as himself almost offering himself to the German people as

792
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: they're intoxican, don't use psychoactive drugs. I am not the ideology.

793
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: I am the national intoxicant. I mean, what you describe

794
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: is a man just undergoing this, you know, sustained three

795
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: year and then intensifying in the last year of the war,

796
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: you know, decline and ever greater delusion, and generals being

797
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: in fear of having to you know, even go in

798
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: and see him. And Hitler is just being delusional. Yeah,

799
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: I call us the bunker mentality in my book. I

800
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: had also had a love for real bunkers, for concrete,

801
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: so he put like seven meter thick wall concrete walls

802
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 1: around him. And he also put these pharmacological walls around

803
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: him so no one could touch him. Especially the opioid Coda,

804
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: which now as markets oxicontin became his favorite drug because

805
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: once he was high on it could he felt invincible,

806
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: He felt good, He thought he could think clearly. He

807
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: basically never came back into reality at a certain point

808
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: in time. He never came down and like spoke to

809
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: someone and asked him what's really going what's really happening here?

810
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: That he was He was never in that state of

811
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: mind anymore. And and this greatly differentiated um the dictatorship

812
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: from for example, that the British establishment where people were

813
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: the American establishment war establishment, where people were rationally discussing

814
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: what's the best way to go ahead. There was never

815
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: this pooling of you know, different you know, perceptions and

816
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: in opinions. In Germany, it was just this one man

817
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: deciding everything in this one man, you know, becoming more

818
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: and more delusional and and and removed from reality. Well,

819
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: it seemed in a way also both Stalin and Hitler

820
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: essentially extraordinarily powerful sociopath um and making unilateral decisions and

821
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: killing and executing people and all that sort of stuff.

822
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: But but Stalin, so far as we know, was not

823
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: under the influence of powerful psychoactive drugs and growing drug

824
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: dependency and the way that Hitler was. I mean, you

825
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: also described in ninety three. You know, he tells Mussolini

826
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 1: to come see him. The Allies have already attacked Italy,

827
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 1: Rome's being bond. Mussolini comes to see Hitler, and Dr Morrell,

828
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: you report in the book, has just given Hitler another

829
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: injection to get him up for the meeting of Newssolini

830
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: and Hitler just talks NonStop for three hours, right, mussolinial

831
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: Duce doesn't even get a word in edgewise and concludes

832
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: with some disastrous you know, military edict. I mean it's

833
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: almost a comic. I mean it's a very sick and

834
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: sad comedy, but parts of it almost sound that way.

835
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: And starting as you mentioned, never used drugs. He was

836
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: always uh, even though he was you know, mass murderer,

837
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: but he was still you know, rationally made these decisions.

838
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: He would very rationally approach the military theater, so he

839
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: would let his generals do their job basically where Hitler would.

840
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 1: He was not able to let anyone, you know, take

841
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: any responsibility and make any big decision. That's where many generals,

842
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: especially became more and more frustrated with Hitler and didn't

843
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,399
Speaker 1: want to go into the briefings anymore because they knew

844
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: that they couldn't even they couldn't speak their mind. You

845
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: know that. You also talked about all of the people

846
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: and Hitler's revenue turning to Dr Morrel for their own medication.

847
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: Industrialist senior you know, Nazi official, senior military officials, even ambassadors,

848
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: some of them actually go to morale. You describe saying

849
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: I got a meeting with Hitler coming up. Give me

850
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: something to steal me for the meeting that's coming up. Um.

851
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 1: And then of course Goring, who was the second most

852
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: powerful person in the third right right, the head of

853
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: the war economy, the head of the Luftwaffe, Hitler's designated

854
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: number two. He'd a morphine addict for decades, which had

855
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: not kept him from becoming enormously successful for a long time,

856
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: but it sounds like in the last years of the

857
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: war he kind of falls apart as well. Yeah, I

858
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: mean this is not just a phenomenon of of Hitler

859
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: becoming removed from reality. I think the generals of the

860
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: Wehrmacht were still very rationally operating individuals, but higher echelon

861
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: of the Nazi Party it was quite mad, actually. I mean,

862
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: if you look at these types of personalities, characters that

863
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:38,760
Speaker 1: were in the highest power places, Good and Gobbles, Himmler, woman,

864
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: they were very strange people and and and and I

865
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: mean the pressure also around them was incredible, and they

866
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: were using quite a lot of drugs, all of them

867
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: except Himler. Himler was doing two hours of yoga each

868
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: morning in his office, but the other ones were basically

869
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: also living in the make belief World governess was using

870
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: heroin and morphine. Girling was a morphine addict. At one point,

871
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:16,240
Speaker 1: it became almost essential to become a patient of morale

872
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: if you wanted to stay close to Hitler, because if

873
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: you would not become a patient of morale, Hitler wouldlready

874
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: see this as you might even be an enemy because

875
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: you're not, you know, doing the same thing that that

876
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: he would do. You don't, you wouldn't trust the doctor

877
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: that he trusted. So it became also very political what

878
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: Morrel did, and he became extremely busy actually as as

879
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: the doctor of most of the higher Nazis. Right. But

880
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 1: then there's this final chapter right July twentieth is the

881
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: failed assassination attempt by Claus found Stauffenberg and his allies

882
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 1: where they land up getting a bomb into a meeting

883
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: with Hitler, who is severely wounded. Um and other other

884
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: senior staff are killed, but Hitler survives and a new

885
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: doctor I know the name, Geesing, Gysing Geesing, who's an

886
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: e NC in your nose and throws doctor comes into

887
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: the scene and he's somebody I mean, it's common in

888
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: those days to use cocaine uh, you know, he was

889
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,959
Speaker 1: not unique in using cocaine for dealing with ear nose

890
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: and throat troubles. It was a very common form of

891
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: medication in those days and quite effective for most people. Um.

892
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: But a kind of battle breaks out between Geezing and

893
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: Morrel over who is going to be Hitler's doctor. Well,

894
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: when Gezing applied cocaine to his Hitless nostrils, he realized

895
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:49,760
Speaker 1: quickly that Hitler appreciated the drug, not like a normal

896
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: patient who would maybe say, oh, I'm happy I don't

897
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: have such pain anymore, but Hitler immediately wanted more, and

898
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: he was actually craving for the psychoactive effect of the drug.

899
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: Keising realized this, um, and he realized more and more,

900
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: you know, he realized that Hitler is it was like

901
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: a drug connoisseur, and he likes to take drugs every day.

902
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: And then Keissing became skeptical morel because Morrel would never

903
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,439
Speaker 1: really say what he gave Hitler, so there was no

904
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: open communication between the doctors. So Keezing became very suspicious

905
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,959
Speaker 1: about Morale's behavior and was actually went to Himler said,

906
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: maybe it's not good what what Morrel is doing. And

907
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: at the time, Hitler had become so inefficient as a

908
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: war leader that there were you know, hopes within the

909
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: higher the highest ecologen of the party to remove Hitlin

910
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: and have a new leader. So they Himmler, who was

911
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: part of that group for a while. You thought, if

912
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: we removed Morel, then we cut off Hitler from his

913
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: drug supply, that would weaken Hitler and we can actually

914
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: get rid of Hitler and and and start a new

915
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: phase of the dictatorship um. So there was actually a

916
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: so called I call it the doctor's war between Geazing

917
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: and Morale. But in the end hit the one the

918
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: doctor's war and fired Geazing, and because he was still,

919
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, the leader, all the other basically went quiet,

920
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: and Morel's rain um continued. And at this point, I mean,

921
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: Morrel is giving Hitler everything in the kitchen sink, right,

922
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: I mean steroids, And this is ultimately I guess, giving

923
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,479
Speaker 1: speedballs that are combining cocaine or amphetamine with you could

924
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: all the oxy code own maybe even barbiturous. I mean,

925
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: Hitler is in a place where these the stuff that

926
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: Morrel is giving him is on the one hand, more

927
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: and more accelerating his death. Yet on the other hand,

928
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: giving him these little bursts of energy so that he

929
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: can still attempt to perform. We described also is that

930
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: in his last year is basically Morrel becomes Hitler's most

931
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: frequent companion, somebody he describes as his best friend. And

932
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: Morrel essentially becomes a de facto prisoner of Hitler, basically

933
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: forbidden to go away, to leave, to see his family,

934
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: to anything, so that he can be available four seven.

935
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: And it's kind of this little dance of decline while

936
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: Morrel's giving Hitler the drugs to sustain his megalomania and

937
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: avoid accepting the realities of the what's happening on the

938
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: battlefield all around him. Absolutely, I mean, Morrel tried to

939
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: remove himself at a certain point in time even from

940
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: his duties and wanted his assistant doctor from his old

941
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: Berlin practice to come and take over the job. But

942
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: it was just wouldn't let that happen because he said,

943
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if your assistant can give injections like

944
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: you can. Because Morrell was supposed, you know, he was

945
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: known to give the painless injection, which was not so

946
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: easy at the time with the thick needles they had

947
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: back then. Um so moral was had no idea how

948
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: to ever get out of his job again, and he

949
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: actually stayed with Hitler um almost until the very end.

950
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,959
Speaker 1: You describe Hitler just looking totally broken, like his vain

951
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: shot track marks on his arm, and you make the

952
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: point that the attempted assassin Stelfenberg. You say Stelfenberg hadn't

953
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: killed him, but he had indirectly turned him into a

954
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: drug addict. So it might be possible to say that

955
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: Hitler was not truly addicted to drugs until just a

956
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: few years before his death at the end of April,

957
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: but by the end he was essentially a hopeless polly

958
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: substance addict. Yeah, I men, It's interesting to look at

959
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 1: what happened in the bunker in the last months of

960
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: Hitless Rain, when Hitler's health was so destroyed by all

961
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: these drugs that it became more and more in cape

962
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: couple of you making the decisions that had to be

963
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: made because this was the end phase of the war,

964
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: and Hitler became more and more this ruling wreck who

965
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: was just craving for the next fix, and then Morel's

966
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: certain point in time decided not to give him the

967
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: drug anymore. Especially the oikoldal suddenly stopped giving oiko do

968
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: even though he had given it on regular in an

969
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: irregular rhythm before. So it's interesting to speculate because Morrell

970
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: didn't write down why he didn't give the opioid anymore.

971
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: Why Morrel did that, So either Morrell didn't have the

972
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: drug anymore. He decided that he has to save Hitler

973
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: from from from his addiction by putting him called Turkey.

974
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: But it certainly turned Hitler into, you know, even more

975
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: of a wreck, because suddenly he didn't have the drug anymore,

976
01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: and he couldn't function anymore whatsoever. Mhm, And I guess

977
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: those last days of his life. He lashes out at

978
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: Morrel and fires him, and Morrell's even afraid he's going

979
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: to have him executed, and I was having lots of

980
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,439
Speaker 1: other people executed at that point. Yeah, he fires him.

981
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: In late April nineteen Goebbels had told him that Morrel

982
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: had basically made him addicted to opioids, which Hitler must

983
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: have known himself, because Hitler, as crazy as he was

984
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: and as evil as he was, he still must have

985
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: noticed that he developed a dependency on his doctor. But

986
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,439
Speaker 1: I think he suppressed his knowledge and Goebbels basically laid

987
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 1: it out before him. He said, you have become addicted

988
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: to opioids, and this is Morrel's fault, and that's why

989
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: you're in such a bad shape right now. So Hitler

990
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: actually says these words to Morele. You have been giving

991
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: me opiods the whole time. Get out of the bunker.

992
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: I don't ever want to see you again. And Morrel's

993
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: totally crushed and he thinks now that the Nazis will

994
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: hunt him down, make him responsible for destroying Hitler, which

995
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: in a way he did. I mean, he really, he

996
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: really contributed without wanting to do that, but he contributed

997
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: a big, you know, part of Hitler's you know decline.

998
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: So Morel flees to the south of Bavaria where he

999
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: has a small research lab and just kind of waits,

1000
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, for the ass killing squad to knock on

1001
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 1: his door and and and put a bullet in his head.

1002
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: But this never happens. Jeremany loses the war, and then

1003
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: in mid May n Morrel, still in the southern Bavarian village,

1004
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: is tracked down by US military and interrogated and then

1005
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: investigated for possible war crimes, which then he he was

1006
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: not because the Americans found out that what what did

1007
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: Morrel do? It basically poisoned Hitler didn't commit any war crimes.

1008
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: The only crime in a way that he committed was,

1009
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, give drugs to Hitler, which is not it

1010
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: was not a crime in a way. It was certain

1011
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: very interesting behavior, which explains you know, some things about

1012
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: Hitlas rise and especially about Hitlas fall. M hm. Well,

1013
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, let's just conclude then with a few reflections

1014
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: on this. And you know, before I do, I should

1015
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: just you know, reveal to you in the audience, you know,

1016
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: my own sort of personal connection to all of this,

1017
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: which was that, you know, I come from a Jewish family.

1018
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: My dad was born in Berlin in nineteen twenty eight

1019
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: and grew up there with his family until they were

1020
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: able to flee in nineteen thirty nine, just before the

1021
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: outbreak of World War Two, and so he was five

1022
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: when Hitler came to power. His father, the one I'm

1023
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 1: named after, Eric Nodelmann, you know, had fought for Germany

1024
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: in the First World War, had received the Iron Cross,

1025
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: and then in nineteen forty was living in France, and

1026
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: my grandparents had got and divorced and has picked up,

1027
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: sent to the French you know, detention camps, drawn cee

1028
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: and others, and then ultimately sent to al Wits where

1029
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: he's killed. So, you know, for me, there's a kind

1030
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: of personal connection to this. And lastly, when people asked

1031
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: me why I voted my life to, you know, working

1032
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: to end the drug war in the US and around

1033
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: the world, I mean, what I say is that it

1034
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: was my consciousness of the persecution of the Jews and

1035
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: of the nature of Jewish history and especially the Holocaust,

1036
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, that sensitized me to things that resembled that

1037
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: sort of behavior in contemporary society. The war on drugs,

1038
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: although it did not approach the magnitude or evil of

1039
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: the Holocaust or some of the other greatest you know

1040
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: genocides that you know in history, that in fact, in

1041
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: many ways it did resemble those sorts of horrific campaigns

1042
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: that dehumanized people for one reason or another, and that

1043
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: employed in mass incarceration and massive police forces and all

1044
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: of this sort of stuff. So I'm just sharing that

1045
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: with you and with the audience. Um, but it's it's

1046
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: why reading your book was a you know, somewhat emotional

1047
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: engagement for me. As well. And the but for a

1048
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: question with Hitler, if Hitler had never met Dr Morrell,

1049
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: would he have been a healthier person? Would he have

1050
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: made it through the forty one and the way he

1051
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: did which he gave Morrell credit. I think I cannot

1052
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: imagine Hitler ever not having a tunnel vision and being

1053
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 1: a very closed minded racists person, completely convinced of his

1054
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: own right wing, right populist ideas. So Morrel was in

1055
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: a way perfect for him. I mean without Morele, maybe

1056
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: he would have crashed before, but I don't think he

1057
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: would ever have become more flexible in his thinking and

1058
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: in his decision making. That's why maybe the argument that

1059
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: Morrell ultimately destroyed Hitler is not really correct, because Hitler

1060
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: ultimately destroyed himself, and Morele just gave him the tools

1061
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: to actually be you know, quite active for a long time.

1062
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean really bloody years of the war where nine four,

1063
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 1: nine five, when so many people died unnecessary deaths, and

1064
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: this was due to Hitler's you know stamina in a way,

1065
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: even after the bomb attack against him, he was in

1066
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: July where he was still going for almost another year.

1067
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: I would say morals medication actually did not help the world,

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01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: but actually helped Hitler to keep running for quite a

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01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: long time and commit incredible atrocity. So normally before we conclude, um,

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01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: so what are you working on these days? Well, I

1071
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: got very interested in trying to find out how, you know,

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01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: drugs have an influence on you know, history and historical processes.

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01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: And then I looked at a certain drug that was

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01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: developed or found um in three, which was LSD, and

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01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 1: I decided to look at the very early years of

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01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: LSD to figure out how it was developed, why it

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01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: was not, why it did not become a normal medicine,

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01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: and what actually went wrong with LSD and how can

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01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: LSD um maybe be used nowadays. So this is, uh,

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01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: this is a new book, especially basically a book about

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01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: America and how American history was u shaped by this

1082
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: incredibly potent substance that suddenly was available norm and that

1083
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: sounds fascinating. I mean, obviously there's a whole post World

1084
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: War two history of the c I and others with

1085
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: their MK ultra, you know, investigations in giving LSD and

1086
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: other types of psychedelics to all sorts of people to

1087
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: see what types of possible uses they could have. An

1088
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: interrogating prisoners or motivating soldiers and all this sort of stuff.

1089
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: So I very much look forward to that book, and

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01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you ever so much for

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01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: joining me on Psychoactive. Sure, thank you. If you're enjoying Psychoactive,

1092
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: please tell your friends about it, or you can write

1093
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

1094
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If

1095
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas,

1096
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three

1097
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: seven seven nine six that's eight three three psycho zero,

1098
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot

1099
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You

1100
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 1: can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive

1101
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,879
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.

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01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noham

1103
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:55,719
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,

1104
01:08:55,920 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovsky from Protozoa picture Is,

1105
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and

1106
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 1: me Ethan Edelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and

1107
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 1: a special thanks to a bio sef Bianca Grimshaw and

1108
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 1: Robert Deep. Next week, we'll be talking about all things

1109
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:30,480
Speaker 1: ayahuasca with one of the world's leading experts, Brazilian anthropologist

1110
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 1: Dr Bia Lobat. I got really, yeah, dedicated, and I

1111
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: just wanted to drink it and talk about it and

1112
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: think about it and talk to people. And naturally I

1113
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 1: became an anthropologist studying Ayahuaska because I was so interested,

1114
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 1: and I just decided that I wanted to go to

1115
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: the Amazon and visit the sources and go directly to

1116
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: the fields. And for me it has been like my

1117
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 1: main ally and friend. But I think that's you know,

1118
01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: we have to be careful with those kinds of things

1119
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: because there isn't such a thing. You know. This is

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01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: the one or the best, I mean, this is the

1121
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: one for me, or this is the one that now

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01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: serves me better. And this is a friend, this is

1123
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: an allyed, this is a teacher, This is a kindred

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01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: spirit that I am aligned with. Subscribe to Psycoactive now

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01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.