1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Welcome. They could happen here a podcast about things falling 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: apart and sort of how you can put them back together. 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: This is again another mostly Things fall Apart episode. UM 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Here with Me is Garrison. Hello, Hello, and joining us 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: today to talk about well, a pretty wide range of things, 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: but about the drug war in Mexico, about primorialitaries, and 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: I guess also I guess about the Narco state. Is 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: Alex Vinia, who is an a socially professor of history 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: at Arizona stat University and has written several very very 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: good articles that I've read recently. Um, Alex, how are 11 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: you doing doing great? Thank you so much for having 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: me on. Yeah, thank you, thank you for joining us. UM. 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: So I wanted to start by talking about an article 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: that you has come out fairly recently. Uh, that is 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: about essentially the transition particularly in Guerrero from I guess 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: the sort of sixties seventies dirty war in Mexico two 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: the drug war, and I guess I wanted to start 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: from because I don't I don't think it's a issue 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: that's particularly well known. UM. I want to, I guess, 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: start with sort of an overview of how we got 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: into the sort of dirty war in Mexico in the sixties, 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: because I think I don't know, like I think if anyone, 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: if people know stuff about this, it tends to be 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: the very dramatic sort of like massacre in eight, but 25 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: it's been it went on for longer than that, and 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: as a sort of deeper history. So can you bring 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: us into that, Yeah, for sure. So I'll start off 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: by saying that generally, if when most people think about 29 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: dirty wars and and and Cold War Latin America, Mexico 30 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: is probably the last country that they think of having one, right, Like, 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: there's a certain exceptionalism that Mexico has enjoyed until relatively 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: recent and relatively recently um amongst academics and especially historians 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: right where we're in the last ten twenty years, we 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: started to uncover Mexico's own version of a dirty war 35 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: that we are more familiar with in other places like Chile, Argentina, Brazil, etcetera. Um, 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: Mexico's dirty war though, and and if people know a 37 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: little bit about this period, like as you mentioned, right, 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: they know about the infamous student massacre of the local 39 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: in October two nine eight. But you know, my my 40 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: research focuses on on this the southern state of Guerrero. 41 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: It's on the Pacific coast. It's made famous by the 42 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: resort city of Akapunco. And I wrote a book in 43 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: twenty four published a book in fourteen that really traced 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: the emergence of armed resistance in the state of Guerrero 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: during the nineteen sixties and seventies. And that was my 46 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: entrance into this idea of of a Mexican dirty war, 47 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: of the Mexican state practicing systematic state terrorism against political 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: dissidents and in my case, armed guerrilla dissidents who enjoyed 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: a backing of dozens of rural communities, um and even 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: urban poor working class neighborhoods in places that in the 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: late sixties and in early nineteen seventies. That's a very 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: regional story, right. That's another thing that kind of distinguishes 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: the Mexican Dirty War from from other Latin American cases 54 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: is that the dirty War was localized to a few 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: major cities and then to two very specific locales in 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: the countryside, garret all being the most bloody theater um. 57 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: The way that these girla movements emerged, they really began 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: as these popular, civic minded social movements in the late 59 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: fifties early nineteen sixties, and and they protested things like 60 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: political authoritarianism and economic injustice, but they did so essentially 61 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: within the confines of the Mexican Constitution. They followed the law. Um. 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: You know, Mexico has the the you know that that 63 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: the characteristic in Latin America of having the first great 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: social revolution of the twentieth century. Um, you do have 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: a post revolutionary government that emerges from the nineteen nineteen 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: revolution that has to pay list service to the radical traditions, 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: to the revolutionary traditions that came out of that that 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: that movement, and for that reason, the Mexican Constitution that 69 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen seventeen in its time, was the 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: most radical social democratic even constitution in the Western hemisphere. UM. 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: And you know, peasant communities compassing the communities in the 72 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: state of believed the letter of the law. So when 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: they started to protest, you know, an authoritarian state governors, um, 74 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: a police violence, army violence, economic injustice. In the sixties, 75 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: they followed the rules and they followed the laws, and 76 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: each time that they did so, they experienced pretty horrific 77 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: instances of both state violence exercised by the military and 78 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: the police, but also everyday forms of violence practiced by 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, gun slingers who were working for landed elites. 80 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: And that then radicalized some of the social movements into 81 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: two separate guerilla movements that were led by rural communist 82 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: school teachers and not ask and US movement in particular 83 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: the Party of a Poor. They ended up creating a 84 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: guerilla force of about the high estimates about three hundred fighters. 85 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: A more realistic estimate is somewhere from one fifty two hundred. 86 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: But the key is that in coastal Guerrero and then 87 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: some of the mountains mountain communities of the Garrido, they 88 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: obtain a lot, a pretty substantial amount of popular support, 89 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: which then leads the Mexican government that had been you know, 90 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: ruled by the p r I, and it was ruled 91 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: in Mexico, was ruled by the p r I for 92 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: like eight years. Uh, they sent in the military and 93 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: they waged this pretty horrific counter insurgency that that did 94 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: things like disappear people, torture rate um. You know, they 95 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: raised entire communities. Um. And that's generally what's known as 96 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: the Dirty War. In Mexico. It's rural theater. Its main 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: rural theater was in a place like Garrido, where you 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: we think there was almost a thousand disappearances from nineteen 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: sixty nine up until the early nineteen eighties. Yeah, And 100 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: one of the things that they interested me a lot 101 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: sort of reading through this was that it's sort of 102 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: weird for insurgency, and that you get aspects of both 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: kind of the kind of like classical seventies urban guerrilla movement, 104 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: but it's also it's very much a real movement you have, 105 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, I mean like one of one of the 106 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: stories you're telling this is about like a group of 107 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: group of people who did one of the you know, 108 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: like the classic urban seventies thing, which is that you 109 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: know they did they did a bank robbery, and then 110 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: two the people get tortured and the royal guerrilla sort 111 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: of get hunted down. And I was I was wondering 112 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: about the dynamics of this because it seems like like 113 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: there there's it seems like you have these groups that 114 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: are kind of unusually moving back and forward between like 115 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: having bases and cities and having bases in these rural areas. Yeah, 116 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: that's one of the So usually when when when folks 117 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: think about these these guerrilla movements and in the sixties 118 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: and seventies, they think of them primarily as as a 119 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: as a you know, very fairly typical rural guerrilla movements 120 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: as you just described. But it these two movements, one 121 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: led by as the Party of the Poor, the other 122 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: one by Hanaro Baska is the A C N R. 123 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: From the very onset, they tried to connect the rule 124 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: to the city um, whether it was cities in in 125 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: Guerrero like um the resort city of Acapulco, particularly working 126 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: class neighborhoods on the outside of the city, or the 127 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: state capital in chief an single which housed the state university. Right, 128 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: so both of these movements made pretty substantial inroads into 129 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: that community and then also into Mexico City. So they 130 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: tried Their idea was not necessarily to start as a 131 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: strictly as a strictly rural movement, but their idea was 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: always to expand because I think to the cities, and 133 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: I think quite rightly they they perceived that what the 134 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: Mexican state was going to do to them was trying 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: to corral them in the state of Guerrero and prevent 136 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: them from logistically and politically expanding beyond that. And in 137 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: the end they were That's exactly what happened, um, And 138 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: that's how these movements were ruthlessly crushed. That and it 139 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: took lot of terror to to separate these armed movements 140 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: from their popular base of support. But a lot of 141 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: this has to do with the fact that both Vaskis 142 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: and Kanas were school teachers and they were involved in 143 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: union movements that were national in scope. Um, they were 144 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: in moved, they were in you know, Luss was in 145 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: the next communist party, right, so he had extensive urban 146 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: experiences and networks throughout the country. So their perspective was 147 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: always to connect the rule to the urban, particularly because 148 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: Mexico by the seventies was a rapidly urbanizing country, right, 149 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: it was going it becomes for the first time and 150 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: assists well first time, it's his post colonial history. It 151 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: becomes primarily an urban country. So um, So they tried 152 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: these really interesting experiments to try to connect the two theaters. 153 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: But as you as you mentioned, right, they did that 154 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: typical nineteen seventies thing of a robbing banks and their 155 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: terminology was expropriation, right, Um. But that that then exposed 156 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: them to police actions and and any time any of 157 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: their militants were captured, they were immediately tortured. Information you 158 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: know that they were in terror gained horrifically and that 159 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: and from intel was used to to hunt down their 160 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: their their their comrades up in the mountains. And I 161 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: think that that's a good place to move towards sort 162 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: of the other side of this, which is partially the 163 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: Mexican state response. But the part, the part of it 164 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: that was really interesting to me was about how, you know, 165 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: so so part part part, part of what these groups 166 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: are fighting are these sort of very very local, like 167 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: sort of landed elites, and I wonder if you could 168 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how these sort of local 169 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: elites merger, are able to merge with and sort of 170 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: like co opt in a lot of ways that the 171 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: military units that are deployed. Yeah, that's one of the 172 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: biggest So let me see how I can answer this question, 173 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: because there's there's so what I what I tried to 174 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: do in this article, and it's part of my broader 175 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: ongoing research, is to kind of connect the violence, the 176 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: state violence of the Mexican Dirty War as it as 177 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: as it happens and get around the seventies with with 178 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: with anything else is happening simultaneously, which is like the 179 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: so called drug war and the exponentially increasing cultivation of 180 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: drugs in a place like Garretto, particularly marijuana and then 181 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: opium poppies that are used to produce heroin. UM. So 182 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: what I try to do in the article that that 183 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: you're referencing is kind of to show there's a longer 184 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: history and Guerrero of of how power is exercise at 185 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: the local level, and how some of these local landed 186 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: elites are able to weather the nineteen ten Mexican Revolution, 187 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: They're able to weather the grain and reform efforts that 188 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: that occurred in nineteen thirties and forties UM. And and 189 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: really these these families. One of the things that that 190 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: captures my attention of of Guerrero is that, uh, how 191 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: you can tell who's in power by just by almost 192 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: by looking at their last name, because there's this remarkable 193 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: continuity in the state of who has managed to exercise 194 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: power at the local level political, social, economic power UM 195 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: for decades now for generations UM. And you can track 196 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: how power works by looking at families and in what 197 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I do in this article is to look at a 198 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: couple of landed elite families that had managed to stay 199 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: in power for decades um. So there's certain at Landed. 200 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: In this article, I focus on one municipality called which 201 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: is in the hot Lands region of Guerrero um During 202 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, probably from about two thousand and eight to 203 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, it was in the top three in 204 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: Mexico for opium and heroin production, so it becomes this 205 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: massive drug producing region. So I go back in time 206 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: and I kind of trace like who was in power 207 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,479 Speaker 1: in this region, who owned land, who owned the resources 208 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: throughout the twentieth century, and how they were responsible for 209 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: essentially creating this little narco fiefdom as it currently exists, 210 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: and trying to figure out which families were involved. So 211 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have these families that have 212 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: been in power from like the nineteen twenties and thirties 213 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: and they're still exercising power. And then when we get 214 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies and you have this this horrific 215 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: dirty war, this counterinsurgency that the state in the military 216 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: waging against communities and Guerrero. That opens up new possibilities 217 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: for new families to come in and to allie themselves 218 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: with locally stationed UH military units and they work together 219 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: to wipe out guerillas and guerilla supporters at the end. 220 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: At the same time, they start to you know, kind 221 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: of dip their toe into this this world of narcotics production, 222 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: because really in Mexico in the nineteen seven especially by 223 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen seventies, it becomes a number one prior 224 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: of of marijuana and heroin to the United States. UM. 225 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: And this is part of just a broader global history 226 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: of narcotics. Right there's US lad drug interdiction efforts in 227 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: places like Turkey, Afghanistan and in the in Southeast Asia, 228 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: and efforts to suppress the drug drug production there creates 229 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: this you know what, what what people usually refer to 230 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: as a balloon effect. UH, it just displaces the drug 231 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: production somewhere else because the demand in the US is 232 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: still there. And that because in that creates in Mexico 233 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: the number one provider of narcotics by the mid nineteen seventies, 234 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: and that then has an impact locally in the place 235 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: of Guerrero, which is again simultaneously experiencing a grill insurgency, 236 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: a dirty war and then also that ramping up of 237 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: drug production. One of the most interesting parts of this 238 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: that I didn't know about was about how I mean 239 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: they're like how how explicitly because I've read a lot 240 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: of while not a lot, but I've I've read about 241 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: a lot of how, particularly like after like when when 242 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: the sort of after sort of the various up people 243 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand six in Mexico with the Wahaka uprising, 244 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: with the Zapatuita is making a bunch of moves and 245 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: the Cupter presidential election, about how you get the drug war? 246 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: Is this sort of like military solution to these electis movements. 247 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,239 Speaker 1: But I was interested in how, I mean, incredibly explicit 248 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: they are about this, Like the antiquerrilla operations are, like 249 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: they don't call them antic rilla operations. They talk about 250 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: like bandits and like they they they're they're explicitly like 251 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, this is an anti narco operation, even 252 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: though you know they're going and massacurring like essentially peasants 253 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: and occasionally guerillas, but just a bunch of just random 254 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: like capusinos. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's a great quote 255 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: that I got from for in this article. Um you know, 256 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: this is wonderful researcher in Mexico. Carlos Flordes was a 257 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: really good book on kind of like the failed state 258 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: in Mexico and drugs and military And in that steady 259 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: he managed to interview a military participant in the dirty 260 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: War in the nineteen seventies. And he has this great 261 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: quote that I included in this essay which he says, 262 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: this military guy says, basically, look, with the marijuana growers, 263 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: we had no problem, we had no beef. But with 264 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: the guerillas, we had to fuck them up. And for me, 265 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: like that, that direct quote kind of encapsulates like what 266 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: the drug war in Mexico has been historically and in 267 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: his current form, Like and this is something that I 268 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: learned from people like sociologists and journalists Don Paley, right, 269 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: like the war on drugs, the war on poor people, 270 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: um and and it becomes in the nineteen seventies, it 271 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: becomes a really useful cover for the type of horrific 272 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: violence that the state is practicing in a place like Guerrero, 273 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: against these popularly supported guerilla insurgencies so publicly and to 274 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: the international audience and to its own domestic national audience, 275 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: and the Mexican state is saying, look, we're not waging 276 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: a dirty war, We're not waging a counter insurgency. We're 277 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: fighting a war against cattle wrestlers, against cattle thieves, and 278 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: against criminals, against drug dealers, um. When in reality they're 279 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: waging a war against poor people who are supporting these 280 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: different guerrilla insurgencies led by these rural communist school teachers. UM. 281 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: So it's and that's in the rural theater, right. It's 282 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: it's really interesting when you think about how the Mexican 283 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: state in the seventies will criminalize urban guerrilla movements. You know, 284 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: Mexico had like thirty eight guerilla movements in the nineteen 285 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies. That's just like people don't really recognize that, right, 286 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: like thirty eight to forty different rural and urban guerilla organizations. 287 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: The big urban one that managed to create i don't know, 288 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: ten to twelve different uh focals or folks uh polside 289 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: um was the LEA, the Communist League of the September UM. 290 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: They became such a big threat in the urban theater 291 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: that the Mexican president devoted his nineteen seventy four State 292 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: of the Union, basically the Mexican version of the State 293 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: of Union. He devoted a pretty good chunk of it 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: to these quote unquote terrorists, right, So for the urban guerillas, 295 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: he referred to them as terrorists, and then he does 296 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: this thing where he says, you know, most of these 297 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: terrorists are unpatriotic. They I'm gonna paraphrase some of his language, 298 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: they reveal high indices of homosexuality, of like just basically 299 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: mothering them to the point that they're seen as like 300 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: the most despicable other in Mexico, in Mexican society, and 301 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: that then opens them up to getting wiped out, um, 302 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: which is fulfills a similar function as calling the rural 303 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: guerillas nothing more than cattle wrestlers, cattle thieves, and narcos. Right. 304 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: So it's all this counterinsurgency like discursive strategy that that 305 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: justifies the elimination of these people. But at bottom, these 306 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: are just wars against The drug war is a war 307 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: against poor people, and and you see that to this day, 308 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: you see that, you know, most one of the things 309 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: that really animates my research about the history of drug 310 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: wars in Mexico is that I really want to push 311 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: back against you know, journalistic treatments that that will say, Look, 312 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: Mexico's war on drugs began in two thousand and six 313 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: when President Felipe Leon wait, you know, launched the military 314 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: against the different drug trafficking organizations. And you know historians, 315 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: um like like myself will work on this. We're like, wait, no, 316 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Mexico has had a series of drug wars right that 317 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: the There's a historian Alec Dawson who talks about has 318 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: a really excellent book on Payote, and he talks about 319 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: how the war on drugs begins in like the colonial era, 320 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: right in terms of how the Spanish colonial state criminalized 321 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: uh indigenous consumption of drugs like payote for for their 322 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: own ritualistic cultural practices. Um. The nineteen seventies is another 323 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: moment where you have a form of drug war that 324 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: the Mexican state exercises. But from my perspective, it's just 325 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: it's almost like a cover as a way to wage 326 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: war against political dissidence and an armed guerrilla challenges to 327 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: its rule in Mexico. Yeah, and I think that's a 328 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: that's an important way of looking at it also as 329 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: just a way to understand why you know, like if 330 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: if you're looking at it from the inspective of like 331 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: a policy makers, like, oh, well, we spent all the 332 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: time during the War on drugs, like why are there 333 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: more drugs? And it's like, well, yeah, because I mean, 334 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: the point isn't really about like I mean, I think, Okay, 335 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: I want to make a caviat here, which is like, 336 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: it's not like there's such a thing as like a 337 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: quote unquote good war on drugs that you could wage 338 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: like there, there's no, there isn't a version of this 339 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: that's like, oh no, if if if we actually just 340 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: try to like focusing on stopping these people, it would work. 341 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: But it's like no. But simultaneously, yeah, it's that the 342 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: goal isn't really about like it's not about drugs, it's 343 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: just about killing poor people. And I said, yeah, I 344 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: think that that's that's a good way of framing it. 345 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: And I think also it's an interesting way of looking 346 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: at why you start to see these sort of supposedly 347 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: like anti narco units just immediately start doing like getting 348 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: to the trade. Yeah yeah, well, I mean because they're 349 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: like their position to make a ton of money off 350 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, Like it's yeah, they're not dumb. Yeah, yeah, 351 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: And I think I don't know, this is an interesting 352 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: question about like the structure of the state here too, 353 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: because you know, look like in Chicago, this is another 354 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: like this is the thing that happens all the time 355 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: is yeah, you get these you get these antidrug units 356 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: that are you know, incredibly specialized. They get a bunch 357 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: of money, and then they immediately trying to round start 358 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: and start like just do like just to enter into 359 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: the drug trade. And so it was one of the 360 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: other things. Yeah, I was just been interested in this 361 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: just about there's there's seems to be these these very 362 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: these these very interesting sort of alliances between paramilitaries, cartels, 363 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: the police and the military that open up and I 364 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: this this know, this is an incredibly broad like it's 365 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: a question you can like you know, devote academic disciplines too. 366 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: But I was wondering how you look at the states 367 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: in the context in a context like this, because yeah, 368 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: I mean in a context where you know, it's not 369 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: the state doesn't really have monopoly on violence, right, Yeah, 370 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: I know that's a that's a huge question. And there's 371 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: how you I mean, essentially the question is like what 372 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: is the state. Yeah, that question always terrorizes me. And 373 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: how you answer that question then leads has consequences to 374 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: how we think about things like the drug war or 375 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, violence in Mexico or a variety of different things. Right. 376 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: But so what I what I do in this article 377 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: is uncle is to just simply look at what the 378 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: state looks like at the local level, right, Um, particularly 379 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: like it's repressive apparatus is and what you see in 380 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: a place like because yeah, you see kind of like 381 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: it's a multi ski tailor issue, right where you have 382 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: generations of conflicts over land and land tenure and who 383 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: gets to control rural markets, who gets to control access 384 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: to rural markets and rural production. Right, So there's already 385 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: like a built in structure that's exploitative, that has somehow 386 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: managed to weather a big social revolution and a grand 387 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: reform effort. And on top of that, then in the 388 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, you get uh, you know, industrialized narcotics 389 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: production placed on top of this pre existing structure. Right, 390 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: So it's should be no, it's almost like no surprise 391 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: then that you know, the gun slingers that used to 392 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: work for landed elagues will now serves not just gun 393 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: slingers for land of elages who are terrorizing can casinos. 394 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: But now they're also going to work with like local 395 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: narcotic uh you know, narco farmers, drug farmers and and traffickers. 396 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: And then at the same time they're going to do 397 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: their best to co opt to buy off you know, 398 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: military units that are stationed at the local level, police 399 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: units that are stationed at the local level, local judges, 400 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: local magistrates, local political officials, and and it it creates 401 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: a very um dense network at the local level of 402 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: people who are working together to maintain power but at 403 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: the same time make sure that this really profitable political 404 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: economy of narcotics is going to thrive. And this is 405 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: at the very local level, right, So in some in 406 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: some ways, those local interests of the quote unquote the 407 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: state are will conflict with the state in Mexico City 408 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: and how to resolve those tensions and becomes a big deal. 409 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: So that the guy that the military participant that I 410 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: referenced earlier, he was he was actually sent in from 411 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: outside of Gereo into GEO to wage counterinsurgency. And you know, 412 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: he talks in this book about how they didn't know 413 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: what to do when they see their soldier comrades, you know, 414 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: obviously collaborating with local naruticles, even though the over this 415 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: guy and his unit have been sent in to wipe 416 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: out the nauticles. So what ends up happening is that 417 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: the goal is never to eradicate the from a national level, 418 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: from a state national level, the goal is never to 419 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: eradicate the drug trade in Mexican in the sixties, seventies, 420 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: and eighties. The goal is to rationalize it. The goal 421 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: is to control it, and and the goal is for 422 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: the state to be able to maintain power over it. 423 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: And this is leads us to what you know, some 424 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: scholars were referred to as a plasa system, right, that 425 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: that that different narcotic organ traffic organizations will control different 426 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: parts of Mexico, but the overall power, you know, they 427 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: have to kick back to is our different state officials. Um. 428 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: And that there's a recent book, really great book by 429 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: Ben Smith called The Dope that just came out, really 430 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: like the first really good English language big history of 431 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: of the Mexican drug trade. And and he essentially he 432 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: says that like the Mexican state is a racket. It's 433 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: a racket, and it's ensuring that this drug trade exists, 434 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: and it's centralized and it's rationalized in the sixties, seven 435 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: these and eighties, um. But by the nineties it starts 436 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: to lose control as the state itself is neoliberalized and 437 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: becomes smaller and its capacity to control these different groups 438 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: becomes uh weekend. So so that's like the big national level, right, 439 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: and then we think that takes us to the scale 440 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: of the international which is a whole another thing. But 441 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: at the very local level, what does this look like. 442 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: It looks like if you're a drug farmer, right, because 443 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: another thing into is that these drug farmers are like 444 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: small scale right there. They're small scale. They have a 445 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: little bit of autonomy, but they're small scale. But they're 446 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: selling their product to these traffickers. And these are the 447 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: traffickers usually that will have connections to local landed families, 448 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: who have connections to military, to police, to politicians, um. 449 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: That will ensure that this economy will will have will 450 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: continue to thrive in a in a profitable way by 451 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: the late seventies. Way, and this is something else I 452 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: think that I need a little bit more research on. 453 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: But you see it happen elsewhere in Mexico, and especially 454 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: in the northwest, in the place like which is usually 455 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: seen as the cradle of the Mexican drug trade. But 456 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: I think in the late seventies, both in and the 457 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: Dirty War and and the and the sending of the 458 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: military and mass in a place like Gereto, it not 459 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: only takes out armed resistance to the Mexican state, but 460 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: it will also take out small scale narco traffickers who 461 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: don't want to play. They don't like the rules that 462 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: the Mexican state is imposing upon them in order to 463 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: make money and traffic drugs. Um So, I've seen a 464 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: couple of documents where, um, you know, secret police, spy 465 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: agent documents where they say, okay, yes, you know these 466 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: these campesinos who are accused of being guerillas. Yes, we 467 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: are disappearing them. But apparently some small scale drug traffickers 468 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: are also being disappeared because they're not they don't want 469 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: to go along with the rules being imposed by the 470 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: Mexican military. And that's something that you see in in 471 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: Sinaloa in the late seventies, when something called Operation Condor 472 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: gets launched and you get thousands of troops and federal 473 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: police who go up there, and instead of eradicating the 474 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: drug trade and getting rid of these different traffickers, what 475 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: they do is they centralize it, they rationalize it, um, 476 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: they make it more efficient. I mean that actually it's 477 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: so it's in in a counterintuitive way, it's just state 478 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: violence that actually leads to the formation of things that 479 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: we think about as cartels and not the other way around, right, 480 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: because the very trade begins within the confines of the 481 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: Mexican State. And a part two of this interview, we're 482 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: gonna drill deeper into that question and look at how 483 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: the state's attempt to get in on the drug trade 484 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: created the cartels and how they sort of lost control 485 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: of them, leading to an incredible increase in peramilitary violence 486 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: and death and destruction. And on that happy note, this 487 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: has been it could Happen here Join us again tomorrow 488 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: for that and in the meantime, stay safe and don't die. 489 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: If you want to find us, we're at Happened Here 490 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: pot on Twitter, Instagram. You can also find other work 491 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: that we do at cools on media on Twitter. If 492 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: for some reason you can, you want to continue venturing 493 00:26:53,080 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: onto the house sides. Good Bye. Could Happen Here is 494 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 495 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 496 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 497 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 498 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, updated monthly at 499 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.