WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 226 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:02.880 Alz Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.720 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.440 The past few weeks, my social media feeds have been 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.239 more apocalyptic than usual, Oddly enough, not due to the 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.440 escalating war with Ron, the shell shocked economy, or oil prices, 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.360 but because of a wave of posts and news articles 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:49.559 proclaiming impending doom for trans people in the United States. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.800 Attacks on trans writes are obviously not new and have 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.560 steadily risen the past ten years, but this recent collection 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:01.160 of worrying claims are especially grim or out right genocidel. 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:06.040 Justice month, I've seen viral posts citing online articles saying 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.840 that ICE is going to round up and quote unquote 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.039 disappear trans people, that the FDA is making a quote 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.840 unquote registry of trans women, and that an adult trans 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:22.240 healthcare ban is imminent. Welcome to It Could Happen Here? 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.039 A show about things falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis. For 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.160 this episode, I'd like to emphasize the could in it 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:30.240 could happen here. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:31.200 It's not. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.000 It will definitely happen here, and there's nothing you can 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.200 do to stop it. These panic inducing claims and the 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.720 articles they're sourced from are referring to real things or 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.280 movements happening in either right wing activism or anti trans 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.400 policy and legislation, but are framed in a way to 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:56.680 maximize catastrophe rather than actually understanding what's happening at the 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.680 moment and what we can do about it. To unchecked panic, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.840 clickbait reduces the process of staying informed to being in 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.680 a state of constant doom and feeling hopeless against an 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.560 unstoppable enemy. Or it makes someone completely check out and 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.360 not believe anything they see online even if there is 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.240 a real pressing threat, both of which cloud our ability 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.560 to assess and respond to very real threats. For the 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.360 book of this episode, I'm going to focus on an 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.000 article that claims ICE is now permitted to detain anyone 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.080 for quote unquote looking trans. This reporting and the online 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.400 discussion around It is a microcosmatic example of how we 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.520 understand both the Trump administration's attacks on trans people and 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.680 how and why ICE operates as an agency. This story 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.520 can be traced to a sub stack post with the 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.160 headline trump administration opens the door for ICE to target 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:58.000 anyone suspected of being trans. The sub headline continues by 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.919 reading quote, under a new rule, the State Department will 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.200 be able to revoke trans people's visas over quote unquote misrepresentation. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.320 It'll give ICE grounds to suspect all trans people of 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.760 being in the US illegally unquote. The information contained in 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.240 this headline is the furthest many people will engage with 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.840 the content of this article. Combining that headline with preconceived 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.880 notions about how ICE functions under the second Trump administration 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.919 makes us a very frightening claim. So what evidence does 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.680 the subset article include to support this claim? Earlier this month, 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.760 the State Department updated its policy for the Diversity Immigrant 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.680 Visa program, also known as the Green Card Lottery. The 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.720 new rules require that applicants upload a scan of their 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:48.400 foreign passports, biographic and signature page to cut down on 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:54.520 fraudulent diversity visa program entries. The policy update also changed 0:03:54.560 --> 0:04:01.080 the gender entry to sex on application forms policy will update. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.360 The State Department wrote, the marker reflected in the sex 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.880 field on any visa application, including the entry form, should 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.120 match the applicants' biological sex at birth, even if that 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.640 differs from the sex listed on the applicants foreign passport 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.040 or other identifying documentation. 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:18.919 Quote. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.200 The substack article claims this could force a quote mismatch 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.599 between trans people's applications and their passports, something it can 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.440 then use to declare their applications fraudulent and disqualify them 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.760 entirely on quote. The first half of that sentence is true. 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.920 A mismatch may occur between the gender listed on foreign 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.040 documents and the sex the US government wants you to 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.520 list on a visa application, but it is simply not 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:51.440 the case that this mismatch will inevitably result in an 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:56.000 application being deemed fraudulent and then denied the kind of 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.960 fraud this rule change is trying to combat by requiring 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.400 a passport scan is not unique to trans people, according 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:07.400 to Melita Picasso, staff attorney for the ACLUS LGBTQ and 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.479 HIV Rights Project. Picasso said in an email that the 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.920 new rule quote seems to more directly target fraudulent activities 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.960 involving third parties basically entering the lottery on behalf of 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.160 individuals without their knowledge and consent, and then extorting them 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.520 for large amounts of money if they are selected. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:25.520 Unquote. 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.719 The stipulation requiring an applicant to list their biological sex 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.960 at birth on forms has actually already been State Department 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.479 policy for both immigrant and non immigrant visa applications for 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.760 over a year, effectively since Trump's executive order mandating the 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.320 those government officially recognized two biological sexes which are determined 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.680 at birth, and that quote government issued identity documents, including visas, 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.520 and all forms that require an individuals sex, shall accurately 0:05:54.560 --> 0:06:00.440 reflect an individual's immutable biological classification as either mail or email. 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:01.159 Quote. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.560 There's just no basis for the claim that a mismatch 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.919 between the gender listed on a foreign document and the 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:13.279 sex marked on application forms will itself quote unquote disqualify 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:17.880 someone from receiving a visa. ACLU staff attorney Melita Picasso 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.640 told me that the new policy itself recognizes this could 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.720 cause discrepancies, and that she doesn't see a quote new 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.480 or heightened risk of being accused of fraud or wilful 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.400 misrepresentation if a transgender person follows the instructions by listing 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.360 their sex assigned at birth on the application, even if 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.320 they also file a per certificate that has been updated 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.160 to reflect their gender identity. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:42.279 Quote. 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.800 The State Department has been aware for a while that 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.160 this kind of policy will create these kinds of mismatches. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.799 A February twenty twenty five State Department memo reads, quote, 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.920 there may be instances when a consular officer becomes aware 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.919 that the sex listed on the foreign passport may not 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.280 be the applicants sex as defined in the executive order. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.080 In such cases, the adjudicator should confirm the applicant sex 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.159 as defined in the executive order, indicate that sex on 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.560 the visa, and add a case note documenting any discrepancy 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.120 between the passport and the visa to prevent issues at 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.240 the port of entry unquote. Later, in April of twenty 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:25.480 twenty five, the United States Citizenship Immigration Services officially updated 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:30.480 their policy on requiring quote unquote biological sex on immigration applications. 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.920 The policy also states that quote USCIS does not deny 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.000 any immigration benefits solely based on a failure to properly 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.760 indicate that benefit requesters sex unquote. Acale U staff attorney 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.920 Milita Picasso told me that USCIS officials have quote unquote 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.200 a lot of discretion and that the policy says that 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.440 failure to list biological sex quote will cause delays in 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.840 processing the application while USCIS tries to verify your sex 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:06.560 assigned at birth unquote. Now, the State Department has said 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.880 there are grounds to deny these applications for trans people 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:15.120 if they make a quote willful affirmative material act of 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:20.040 misrepresentation by misrepresenting their quote unquote biological sex at birth 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.200 in application forms or to a consular officer to gain 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:29.520 entry to the United States under false pretenses. Legally qualifying 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.120 as willful mess representation is a relatively high bar, and 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.800 this language was specifically written with the intent to restrict 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:42.200 trans athletes from entering the country to play sports. The 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.600 sort of misrepresentation the State Department is talking about is 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.080 if a trans woman quote unquote misrepresents her birth sex 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.840 to procure a visa or admission into the United States 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.839 for the purpose of competing in a women's sports competition. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.800 This same sports relo, dated February twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.719 also states quote, if there is a discrepancy either in 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:10.040 the applicants documents or in electronic constantly records, or if 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.000 other evidence casts reasonable doubt on the applicant sex, you 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.200 should refuse the case under two two one G and 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.240 request additional evidence to demonstrate sex at birth. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:19.800 Quote. 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.479 Section two two one G of the Immigration and Nationality 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:28.120 Act is a temporary visa refusal pending further documents or 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.880 information provided by the applicant. For an athlete visa, the 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.800 bar is very high and the burden is on the 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.840 applicant to prove they have the special un rare qualities 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.880 required to be eligible for a visa. But the substat 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.920 article doesn't just claim that being trans could disqualify you 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.960 from receiving a visa. The article escalates its claims, stating 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.400 that trans people who already have a valid visa could 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.640 have it revoked and be deported for misrepresenting their sex 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.200 in the past, citing US law that if if an 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.120 alien is found to have obtained a visa quote by 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.400 fraud or wilfully misrepresenting a material fact, they are ineligible 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.360 to be in the United States. The article also refers 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.040 to a section of the Foreign Affairs manual, which includes 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.240 providing quote a fake birth certificate in support of an 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:23.960 immigrant visa application as misrepresenting a material fact unquote. The 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.480 article goes on to assert that the Trump administration could 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:30.920 refuse to recognize trans people's amended birth certificates from foreign 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.760 countries and essentially consider them quote unquote fake, thus making 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:40.199 their visa eligible to be revoked by quote unquote misrepresenting 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.760 a material fact. The author of the substack links to 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.040 another one of her own articles on a new policy 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.320 regarding the issuing of US passports with sex markers reflecting 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.080 biological sex at birth. The passport policy instructs the state 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.040 parmer employees to check birth certificates for signs of being amended, 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.360 and if they are amended, request more documents that list 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.439 sex at the time of birth, such as medical records, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:09.040 hospital records, or early school records. ACLA staff attorney Picasto 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:14.200 says that this does not mean entire amended birth certificates 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.800 or quote unquote fake for the purposes of establishing fraud 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:22.360 or willful misrepresentation, which is again a high bar, and 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.600 that Trump administration has never argued this as such. 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:27.000 Quote. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.440 I think it's dangerous to even suggest that illegally obtained 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.520 and valid birth certificate could be viewed as quote unquote 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.560 fake without a much clearer statement from the federal government 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.720 to that effect. Picasto advised in Trump's recent travel bands, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:45.880 they have specifically mentioned the availability of fabricated birth certificates 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.720 in certain countries. And this whole claim about trans people's 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:55.360 visas being revoked because of applications of misrepresentation is contradicted 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.640 by the State Department, which said last year quote currently 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.560 valid US visas issue du prior to the effective date 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.440 of this guidance bearing a sex that differs from the 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.280 visl holders sex as defined in Executive Order will remain 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.440 valid through its expiration date. The visa holder does not 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.280 need to apply for a new visa with an amended 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:19.680 sex marker until the current visa expires. So the first 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.200 half of this article covers what I argue are gross 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.600 misrepresentations of State Department visa policy. The second half of 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:32.479 the article speculates on how this misrepresentation could be enforced 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.720 by ICE in it Supreme Court ruling last year, just 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.360 as Kavanaugh wrote that ICE could detain people based on 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.160 a combination of factors such as working a certain kind 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.840 of job, ethnicity, and speaking Spanish or talking with an accent. 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.000 Kavanaugh said that ICE can detain someone for questioning quote 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.760 if they have a reasonable suspicion based on specific articulable facts, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.520 that the person being questioned is an alien illegally in 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.720 the United States. The author of this substacked article argued 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:06.520 that Kavanaugh's concurrence quote unquote effectively permitted ICE to use 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.520 the fact that someone looks trans as the quote specific 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.760 articulable fact, allowing its officers to question, harassed, detain, and 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:19.480 even deport both citizens and non citizens as long as 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.520 it has a reason to claim that being trans makes 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.679 a person more likely to be in the US illegally unquote, 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.760 with this substacker adding that because of State Department policy 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.959 requiring applicants to list biological sex at birth on forms quote, 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.559 ICE now have the enforcement rationale to assert that trans 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.400 people are more likely than says people to have misrepresented 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.240 themselves during the visa process and therefore are more likely 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:51.640 to have entered the country unlawfully unquote. This assertion from 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.600 this substacker rests on the idea that looking trans makes 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.920 someone more likely to be in the US illegally. This 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.240 idea is not supported by any immigration policy memo or 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.120 guideline that also assumes that the justification for a Kavanaugh 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.240 stop is the same as the legal process of removal, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:17.160 which it is not. This idea was invented by the 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.320 author of this article, It's not based on any enforcement 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.120 directive from ICE, and misrepresents what the State Department means 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:29.720 by intentionally misrepresenting biological sex in the visa application process. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.480 Discrepancies in gender markers across government documents is not itself 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.760 grounds for detention or deportation. In fact, it's federal policy 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.440 to create such discrepancies. Furthermore, dealing with potential discrepancies between 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.920 gender markers on foreign documents and the Trump Admin's insistence 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.760 on only using biological sex at birth on federal documents 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.600 is handled by State Department consular officers and USCIS employees, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.520 not ICE Enforcement and Removal operations officers who work under 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.480 an entire different agency. But the main thing that makes 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.280 me believe that ICE will not suddenly start targeting people 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:12.119 for being trans is that this State department policy requiring 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.920 sex at birth on visa applications isn't actually new. It's 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.680 existed in some form since February twenty twenty five for 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.040 both immigrant and non immigrant visas. The only recent change 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.240 is that the Green card lottery rules have been updated 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:32.080 to use this same language. Quote. Nothing about this new 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.680 rule makes it more or less likely that ICE will 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.760 be free to scrutinize trans people's documents and detain those 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:43.840 whose documents show any inconsistencies unquote, affirmed a CLUS staff 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.920 attorney Melita Picasso put plainly, state department restrictions on stating 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.479 assigned sex at birth on Green card or visa applications 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.960 does not give ICE any new justification to roam around 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.160 disappearing random people who quote unquote to look trans. But 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.520 it could make border crossings more risky for non citizens, 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.280 and visa applications harder to navigate and subject to delays. 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.280 This policy from the State Department is bad, but turning 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.560 that into saying that ICE is now going to round 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.720 up trans people and vcode them doesn't understand how this 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.080 will actually affect immigrant trans people or trans people currently 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:27.440 in federal custody. 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:28.920 Side note. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.440 Vcoding refers to this systematic enabling of sexual abuse towards 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.440 incarcerated transfomen to please mail prisoners. Near the end of 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.800 the substack article, the author suggests that transpeople in Kansas 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.800 could be at extra risk of getting detained by ICE 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.520 because of a new law invalidating driver's license and birth 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:51.560 certificates with amended gender markers, possibly leaving some US citizens 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:56.040 temporarily unable to prove citizenship with a valid birth certificate. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.640 This new law is certainly dangerous, and any attempt to 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.040 strip a people's legal ID is very worrying and carries 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.880 potential for abuse. In the case of Kansas, already having 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.720 a passport would be really ideal. Otherwise, a hospital birth 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.280 certificate or early school records can theoretically be used to 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:18.320 help prove citizenship, and it is worth saying that a 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:22.840 citizen temporarily losing documentation does not put them at the 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.040 same level of marginalized risk as an undocumented immigrant. The 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.359 new Kansas law does direct the Office of Idle Statistics 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.240 to quote reissue birth certificates when necessary to correct this 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:40.520 sex identification unquote. Similarly, DMVs were instructed to reissue a 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.280 quote unquote corrected license once the invalidated one was turned in. 0:17:46.160 --> 0:18:00.240 We'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back, who 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.959 it could happen here. The unsubstantiated claims made in that 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:10.560 substack article went viral across multiple social media platforms like TikTok, 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:15.320 Blue Sky, and Twitter, bolstering further speculation. Social media posts 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.600 further extrapolated the potential harm facing trans people by ICE 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.160 agents beyond the claims made in the article by saying 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.119 that ICE will now deport or disappear trans citizens. Anyone 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.600 who tried to push back on the legitimacy of those 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.320 claims were labeled dangerous or fence for trying to quote 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:38.720 unquote downplay the threat posed by ICE. Assertions of new 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.880 pressing danger in this back and forth discourse largely took 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:47.640 three forms. One saying that because ICE is already doing 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.040 X bad thing, that means they could also start doing 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.040 this new bad thing. Two people asserting that ICE is 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.840 in fact actually already doing this, and three arguments based 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:04.560 on distrust of the government and ICE's general lack of legality. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.800 Much of the discussion emerged from the genuine belief that 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.920 ICE has been granted new power or has been quote 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.400 unquote authorized to detain someone for looking trans, that Trump 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.560 has quote unquote opened the door for ICE to start 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.720 profiling trans people, that, like the Streame Court's ruling last year, 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:28.159 profiling has been essentially greenlit for trans people, or that 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.800 checking the consistency of gender markers has been added to 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.960 ICE's quote unquote jurisdiction. And to be one hundred percent clear, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.720 there's not been any new ICE memo or policy related 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.880 to transpeople, gender markers, or documentation being in their jurisdiction. 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.160 State department policy on requiring biological sex on applications has 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.439 existed for over a year. The real danger posed by 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.560 this policy is that more trans immigrants could have their 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.320 visas delayed or, in extreme cases, denied. People may need 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:07.880 help navigating this increasingly confusing application process. Still, people have 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:12.760 tried to assert that ICE's intentional targeting and profiling of 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:17.919 people for being trans was quote unquote already happening. In 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.720 the past year, ICE has detained transpeople. It's hard to 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.199 get exact numbers on this because ICE stopped collecting detention 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.360 data for trans people last year to comply with Trump's 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.720 anti trans executive orders, though we do know of attempts 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.800 to deport transpeople from news reporting. Last August, ICE detained 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.520 a transwoman who over stated a visa by six years, 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.040 and in November, a transwoman who lost her lawful permanent 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.600 residence status in twenty twenty three after pleading guilty to 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.240 a felony was quote unquote inadvertently deported to Mexico despite 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.520 a court order specifically barring her from being sent to Mexico. 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.320 We have no evidence that these women were targeted for 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:02.000 removal on the basis of being trans, but what happened 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.119 to them is still horrific. As of now, there has 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:09.200 been no reporting on people being targeted for detention based 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:14.280 on looking trans, because the government has not actually argued 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:19.480 that being trans itself qualifies as reasonable suspicion of illegal presence. 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.760 When I voiced skepticism about the claims sourced from this 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:28.160 substack article, people responded to me saying that even if 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.200 this has yet to happen, one could argue that ICE 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.640 still could expand their operations to include profiling and targeting 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.960 trans people for detention, since they're already profiling and rounding 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.040 up quote unquote random brown people. After all, this podcast 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.920 is called it could Happen here, and ICE has detained 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.640 both citizens and legal immigrants and sent them to quote 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:53.400 unquote camps. Though this show is called it could happen here. 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:59.120 That doesn't mean we should spread unsubstantiated doom spiraling, disconnected 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.840 from the material reality of real policies, advancing a fascist project. 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.879 The Trump administration has been very clear and open about 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.480 targeting groups of people flooding through our southern border. That 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.159 is who ICE is designed to target, and they have 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:18.000 policy directing them to do so and new permission from 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.720 the Supreme Court. It is true that ICE has temporarily 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.239 detained US citizens when looking for people they suspect our 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.400 undocumented immigrants. This has been for two reasons. US citizens 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.320 accused of interfering with ICE activity while protesting, or because 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.360 ICE suspects US citizens may be undocumented based on factors 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.720 like skin tone, occupation, or speaking a foreign language, usually Spanish. 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.679 This second group of people then must demonstrate proof of 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:49.080 citizenship or if they are immigrants, they're legal status. The 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.160 period they're detained is supposed to be relatively short, usually 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.680 a few hours, though in extreme cases that's stretched into 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.760 multiple days. When I posted about this online, someone sent 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:05.160 me a Wikipedia article claiming it proved that ICE has 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:11.040 deported one hundred and seventy US citizens during Trump's second term. 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:15.199 The article actually said one hundred and seventy citizens have 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.199 been detained since Trump took office. Again, there have been 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:23.800 a few reported instances of US born citizens being deported. 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:28.560 These are citizen children who are deported with immigrant parents 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:33.199 to avoid child separation, though many many children do end 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.160 up being separated from their parents when their parents are deported. 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:41.040 The last argument that people fall back on is simply 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.440 that ICE is a completely lawless agency and it can 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.280 do whatever it wants, including going after trans people. After all, 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:52.480 ICE has murdered US citizens on camera in broad daylight, 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.280 but it's important to remember that happened for a reason. 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:01.560 Those weren't random acts. ICE and CBP murdered people protesting 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:05.879 ICE rates targeting their immigrant neighbors. Federal agents killed people 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:10.400 because the protesting was an inconvenience and there was use 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.760 of force policy and training directing them to do so. 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:17.439 For decades, CBP agents have killed people at the border 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.199 and gotten away with it. The Trump administration may not 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.439 care about the law, but this analysis is not based 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:28.840 on any assumptions about legality. It's based on the administration's 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:33.040 own stated goals, which they've been very open about, and 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:37.000 the policies and practices currently in effect, none of which 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:40.680 relate to ICE targeting people for quote unquote looking trans. 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.120 From what we know, the Kavanaugh stops framework have never 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.640 been used to target trans people for being trans as 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.800 the reasonable suspicion of being illegally in the country, and 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.840 there's been no changing guidelines saying that being trans can 0:24:55.880 --> 0:25:00.720 be the basis for said stops. Asserting otherwise is simply false. 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:05.760 Insisting that because of State Department application policy, ICE will 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:10.159 now randomly arrest transpeople is conflating two very different things. 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:15.119 This isn't about the potential legality of ICE targeting transpeople. 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.879 I'm simply saying there is no such directive instructing ICE 0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:24.600 to do that. Asserting that the Trump administration is completely 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:29.240 one hundred percent unbounded by law also ignores the fact 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:32.959 that federal and immigration courts are still in active terrain 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:37.280 of battle. While the administration has repeatedly ignored courts and 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.320 judges orders. People have also been successfully released from ICE 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:45.399 custody by filing habeas corpus petitions. It's not that I 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:49.080 believe in the personal integrity of ICE agents, far from it. 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.320 But this concept of ICE as this vague fascist desk 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.160 squad that will go after any group the Trump administration hates. 0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:01.840 Turns ICE into this abstract idea rather than a single 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:06.239 material agency with concrete motivations and limits that leaves a 0:26:06.320 --> 0:26:09.880 wake of destruction in the course of achieving their purpose. 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:15.760 ICE does raids where there's high concentrations of immigrant workers. 0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:20.520 The targeting isn't actually random. ICE is going after undocumented 0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:24.640 immigrant workers, sometimes using skin and language as a rough 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:30.159 proxy to do document checks. To assert the inevitability of 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:34.520 ICE going after trans people, people invoke comparisons to the Nazis, 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:37.720 and as rhetorically useful as it is to equate ICE 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.399 to a modern version of the Gestapo. This is not 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:45.439 Germany in the nineteen thirties. ICE is a contemporary version, 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:49.919 but the current world is different. The chronically online doomer 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:53.720 may retort, but once ICE is done with immigrants, then 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:56.040 they will go after trans people. After all, what's the 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.240 purpose of increasing ICE is staffing and funding or building 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.600 a network of tension camps across the country, if not 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:08.080 to use them against the undesirables. There's about fifteen million 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:12.240 undocumented immigrants in the United States and about three million 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:16.840 trans people. That's five times as many undocumented immigrants than 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:20.879 trans people. Last year, ICE reached a record high number 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:26.240 of deportations, over six hundred thousand. This number still leaves 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:30.560 millions and millions of undocumented immigrants. ICE will never be 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:34.920 quote unquote done with immigrants. This logic again reduces ICE 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:38.520 to this vague, abstract evil and fails to consider the 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.760 purpose of ICE and why it currently operates as it does. 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:47.320 So what motivates ICE? Do Individual ICE agents share the 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:51.040 same motivations as the agency itself or the people directing it. 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.800 Individual agents certainly could be motivated by racism, political ideology, 0:27:55.920 --> 0:28:00.320 a paycheck, or a combination thereof, but the motivating forts 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:04.080 across the entire agency cannot solely be based on ethnicity itself, 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:06.919 or else you wouldn't see as many Hispanic ICE and 0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:11.240 CBP agents. People tend to think of hate as a 0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:15.600 vague causal force itself, rather than it being the result 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:21.959 of complex societal factors shaped by material forces like the economy, jobs, 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:26.160 in security, and housing shortages. These material forces are often 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:31.280 expressed as racial or ethnic prejudice, but the underlying motivation 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:34.920 of ICE as an agency and by extension, DHS, still 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:39.920 rests on material forces, not racial hatred as an abstract ideal. 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.200 Rank and file employees could have entirely different motivations compared 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:45.840 to some of those at the top of the agency 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:48.520 or the agency as a whole, and people in charge 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:52.000 of the agency may themselves even be confused as to 0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:57.719 the material motivations that underline the existence of immigration enforcement agencies. 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:01.440 But this lack of alignment is a weakness in the 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:05.600 agency and DHS more broadly, as demonstrated by the fallout 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:09.600 of Operation Metro Surge in Minneapolis, which left ICE and 0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:14.920 DHS in a compromised state. So why does ICE exist? 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:19.720 What material role does it fulfill? It seeks to stabilize 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:24.480 the social order by targeting surplus populations, and what's the 0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:27.360 most efficient way to do that by going after the 0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:31.120 most marginalized populations with the least amount of legal and 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:36.880 economic protections, which are undocumented immigrants. This operation maybe sold 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.160 to the public, and indeed it's enforcers by marketing it 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:43.520 in the language of race and crime categories, which are 0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:46.680 often equated, But underneath that, it's still an attempt to 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:51.960 solve problems caused by material economic forces. In reality, this 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:57.120 material motivation establishes a certain direction of impact, as well 0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:02.280 as material limits like budget, personnel, and balancing between public 0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:07.360 approval and public opposition. So with that in mind, does 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:11.960 it make sense to claim that Immigration and Customs Enforcement 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:16.600 is going to conduct the targeted mass detention of trans 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:18.040 people as a class? 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:19.680 Signs point to know. 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:22.240 It's not that I disagree with the idea that trans 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:25.560 people are under threat from the government, but they're under 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:29.480 a different threat than that of undocumented immigrants or people 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:34.040 detained by ICE based on profiling. Obviously, trans immigrants have 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:39.000 an overlapping threat vector. As such, migrant support should remain 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:42.680 focused on things like ICE Watch, rapid response networks, and 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:46.720 providing immigrants legal resources, including to trans immigrants who madeed 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:50.400 assistance navigating the visa process, and working to get people 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:54.760 out of ICE detention. The latter is especially important considering 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:58.360 Trump's executive order forcing transwomen in federal custody to be 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.680 detained with men and Trump administration's plan to end federal 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:07.520 prison rape protections for trans people. But most people engaged 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:11.280 in this discourse genuinely don't understand how state department policy 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:14.960 on visa applications will actually affect trans immigrants and what 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:18.680 we can then do to support trans immigrants, But this 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:24.000 whole discourse takes the focus away from the people most 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.360 at risk of ICE, which are still undocumented immigrant workers. 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:32.440 Lilith in Seattle with a one hundred and fifty thousand 0:31:32.520 --> 0:31:35.880 dollars a year tech job is not at high risk 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:40.080 of being detained by ICE. Believing otherwise prohibits people who 0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:42.760 are actually safe and secure from using their wealth and 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:45.400 status to support others who do not have the same 0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:49.600 safety provided by wealth or status, whether they're transgender and 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:54.560 immigrant or both. Misleading articles in the larger panic driven 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:59.440 information economy encourages people with financial or legal security to 0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:03.160 be scared into paralysis because they believe that any amount 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.000 of opposition to the government will result in being disappeared 0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:09.760 to a concentration camp. This justifies a retreat from the 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:13.200 world by framing it as safety, allowing one to focus 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:17.840 on maximizing their own power and wealth to achieve security. 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.840 Retreating solely into the rule of the victim achieves a 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:26.120 sort of emotional catharsis, but this also alienates you from 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:29.840 the world and ends up doing propaganda for the enemy. 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:32.840 In this discourse, there's a tendency to make the enemy 0:32:32.840 --> 0:32:36.960 out to be an unstoppable monster, which further justifies in 0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:40.080 action because it doesn't allow you to understand the limits 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:44.840 of the enemy, whether logistical or ideological, and resigns us 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:49.640 to power before an omnipotent all powerful evil. ICE operations 0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:54.200 are an expensive, unpopular, destabilizing thing. We must keep an 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:58.280 eye on the fragility of power, as that informs us 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.760 on how to fight it. When removed from action in 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:05.440 the real world, people have no way to confront truth. 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:09.520 It is a frightening time to be transgender. On top 0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:12.080 of what feels like never ending attacks on healthcare and 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:15.160 our ability to exist in public life. You now see 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:19.720 news stories about a US state invalidating people's IDs, at 0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:22.560 the same time as viral social media posts claim ICE 0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:25.760 has been given new authority to detain transpeople and deport 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:30.080 immigrants for having the wrong gender marker. Various attacks on 0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:34.360 trans rites separated through time, could be viewed as a coherent, 0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:40.320 centralized strategy towards a singular, horrific end, but they also 0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:44.840 may be in fact disparate, often petty attempts at cruelty, 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:52.280 intending to demoralize transpeople and make translife prohibitively difficult. The 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:55.080 way Red states and the Trump admin are trying to 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:59.760 eliminate transgenderism, as Michael Knowles would say, is to simply 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:04.880 make it incredibly difficult to socially and medically transition, like 0:34:04.920 --> 0:34:09.279 by not recognizing gender on government documents, be excluded from 0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:13.520 public bathrooms, and continuing efforts to restrict healthcare. Will do 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:28.080 one more break and return for a final segment. The 0:34:28.160 --> 0:34:32.360 state of catastrophic fear I've been talking about is maintained 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:37.600 by a near constant wave of articles with panic inducing headlines, 0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:42.399 which fuel social media posts that further escalate and abstract 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.600 claims maiden headlines to a Nazi Germany esque level of 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:51.480 potential danger facing trans people. One such impending danger circulating 0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:55.200 online this month is the claim that the FDA is 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:59.919 making a registry of trans women and moving to crimin 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:04.600 diy estrogen. This claim originated from an article in a 0:35:04.600 --> 0:35:09.800 trans news outlet published March twelfth, reporting that anti trans 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:13.600 lobbying groups sent a petition to the FDA to create 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:16.680 a registry of transwomen who take estrogen and restrict the 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:21.240 use of feminizing HRT, which if implemented, could quote fast 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:27.320 track a pathway to criminalizing estrogen use. Importantly, this citizens 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:32.000 petition is not US law or proposed government legislation, nor 0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:36.000 is it FDA policy or regulation. It was written by 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:39.800 an anti transactivist coalition and sent to the FDA over 0:35:39.960 --> 0:35:43.840 three months ago in December of twenty twenty five. The 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:47.480 petition requests quote unquote immediate action by establishing a new 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.720 docket for the public to officially comment on the safety 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:54.880 and effectiveness of estrogen in gender transitions, and to schedule 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.160 a public hearing on the subject. That is mainly what 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.760 the petition is for, though it doesn't make further recommendations 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.920 following the conclusion of a public hearing. These recommendations include 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:09.800 adding a warning label to estrogen, conducting a safety review, 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.920 having clinicians report adverse effects to the FDA, and requiring 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:17.920 the drug manufacturers quote establish a patient registry as a 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:21.360 part of a risk evaluation and mitigation study to capture 0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:25.719 real world safety data unquote, and that is the registry 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:30.440 mentioned in this panic headline. This article, or more accurately 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:34.880 distorted versions of its claims, went viral across trans Twitter, 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:38.480 with tens of thousands of likes and hundreds of thousands 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:42.239 of quote unquote views, but the article received strong pushback 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:46.560 on Blue Sky for being quote unquote sensationalist and inflammatory. 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:50.880 The outlet that originally published the story later updated the article, 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:55.120 clarifying that the FDA receives hundreds of petitions a year, 0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:58.319 and even if implemented, they can take years to go 0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:03.640 into effect. Twenty thirteen, only six point six percent of 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:07.839 FDA citizen petitions were approved and resulted in new regulation. 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.760 A study from twenty sixteen found that, on average, quote, 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:15.480 these petitions require two point eighty five years for a 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:20.040 final agency decision, and many decisions remain pending ten to 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:25.960 thirteen years after their initial submission unquote. This FDA petition 0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:28.840 story was not the only article this month theorizing about 0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:33.640 a trans registry or adult HRT restrictions. In mid March, 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:37.760 multiple LGBTQ news outlets reported that Republican lawmakers in Tennessee 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:41.640 advanced a bill that would quote unquote create a public 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:45.200 list of trans residents in the state. The bill in 0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:50.319 question mandates insurance companies also covered d transition, and would 0:37:50.360 --> 0:37:54.439 require that care providers submit statistics on gender affirming care 0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:58.080 to the Tennessee Department of Health, which must quote not 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:03.800 contain individually identify information defined in HIPPA unquote. The Tennessee 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:05.799 Department of Health would then use that information to make 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:11.160 a publicly available statistics report. But online accounts are spreading 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:14.200 this story as if Tennessee is making a quote unquote 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:19.320 sex offender style public registry with the names and locations 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:22.520 of all trans people in this state. A bill like 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:25.960 this could potentially be used for harm, and it may 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:29.680 face court challenges for possibly violating parts of HIPPA by 0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:33.560 collecting data on county of residents and procedure dates. But 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:37.360 the reporting on the bill and the viral reaction online 0:38:37.760 --> 0:38:40.680 make it out to be something completely different. There's no 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:44.680 reason to believe this bill would create a publicly accessible 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:49.840 registry or list identifying trans people by name in this state. 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.400 The bill has not yet passed the state Senate, and 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:55.960 it may not in its current form. Right now, it's 0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:59.880 unclear what exact form the collected data will take with 0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:03.120 in a statistics report and what level of anonymizing data 0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:06.480 aggregation will be employed. This is something to keep an 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:08.520 eye on if the bill does pass and the state 0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:12.360 Department of Health drafts guidelines for the mandatory statistics reporting, 0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:17.239 But the way it's being reported is incredibly misleading. Interestingly, 0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:21.600 the source for this public list claim is the same 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:26.239 substec outlet that created the false story about ICE now 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:30.600 being able to detain people for looking trans. Also earlier 0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:34.960 this month, multiple LGBTQ news outlets reported that the Fourth 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:40.880 Circuit Court approved state bans on gender affirming healthcare for adults. 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.320 On March tenth, a Republican appointed three judge panel of 0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:48.319 the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that states can 0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:53.920 prohibit gender affirming surgery from being covered by Medicaid. The 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:58.080 ruling affirmed ban on Medicaid coverage for quote sex change 0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:01.520 surgeries in West Virginia, with the panel arguing it doesn't 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:05.279 discriminate against trans people because it applies to specific procedures, 0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:10.120 not specific individuals. This is certainly bad news for trans 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:14.480 people in West Virginia on Medicaid, but reporting that this 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.920 decision could soon result in trans people losing healthcare in 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:22.680 other states or nationally is misleading and removes key context. 0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:27.440 This is not a total ban on these procedures. It's 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:31.880 a ban on state Medicaid coverage of these surgical procedures. 0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:34.920 The ruling is not a ban on other forms of 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.680 gender affirming healthcare. Like HRT, nor does it threaten the 0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:41.360 hospital's ability to receive Medicare and Medicaid funds for providing 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:45.080 gender affirming healthcare, like the Trump administration has threatened so 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:49.719 far unsuccessfully. Still people postulated on how this ruling could 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:54.400 be laying the legal groundwork to eliminate adult transgender healthcare, 0:40:55.400 --> 0:40:58.520 but trans journalist to David Forbes noted that this ruling 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:02.200 will likely be appealed to wider Fourth Circuit, which has 0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:06.800 recently ruled in the opposite direction of this three panel ruling. 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:11.480 What paniced assertions of an impending total ban on trans 0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:15.280 healthcare tends to overlook is that going from a state 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:19.479 ban on Medicaid coverage for surgery straight to an all 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:23.880 ages ban on gender affirming healthcare skips a lot of steps, 0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:29.719 and those steps are crucially important. The panic, clickbait induced 0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:35.440 doomer mindset treats every horrific potentiality as an inevitable eventuality. 0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:40.040 This undermines our ability to accurately assess risk and effectively 0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:44.879 dedicate resources to oppose what are pressing threats. So what 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:48.560 purpose does this sort of posting serve and why are 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:52.200 people so primed to believe it? These panic driven claims 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:54.520 rest on the very real fact that trans people are 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:59.080 facing present danger. Oftentimes, people boosting these panic stories are 0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:03.680 genuinely trying to help inform their own community of potential harm. 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.440 In the case of that ICE story, it was based 0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:09.319 on the assumption that there was a legitimate recent rule 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:12.800 change enabling iceo target people under suspicion of being trans. 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:15.719 It makes sense that people would want to raise the 0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:19.440 alarm about ICE gaining new powers. But acel U staff 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:23.280 attorney Melita Picasso cautioned, quote, we are supporting our community 0:42:23.280 --> 0:42:26.880 by trying to warn people, but these warnings need to 0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:31.680 be clear and accurate, otherwise we end up inadvertently contributing 0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:36.320 to the chaos and fear unquote. Other times, these panic 0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:40.560 stories are spread with the hope of scaring allies into 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:44.719 caring about the ongoing attacks on trans people. Perhaps this 0:42:44.840 --> 0:42:48.000 is successful in some cases, I don't know. But as 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:52.200 a side effect, this strategy deals significant damage to the 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:56.000 people it's trying to protect. Forecasting doom twenty four to 0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:59.799 seven can drive people into hopeless despair and push them 0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:03.080 away way from strategies to fight against the current attacks 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:07.280 on trans rights. Panic driven agit prop could also contribute 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:11.399 to a girl who Cried Wolf scenario where allies start 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:15.400 to discount concerns about certain attacks on transrights due to 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:20.960 previous unsubstantiated viral claims. Though many people spreading these claims 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:24.480 may have genuinely good intentions, the people creating these claims 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:30.120 may develop certain material incentives. Traditional mainstream journalism has failed 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:33.440 to question the massive government overreach into the lives of transpeople, 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:36.880 and in some cases helped manufacture consent for the stripping 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:39.879 away of trans rights. This state of affairs has made 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:42.960 trans people lose faith in the big outlets, leading to 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:46.320 small upstart outlets filling in the information gaps in trans 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:51.280 news coverage, but without any institutional backing. Independent news sites 0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:54.200 and sub stack style blogs have to build an audience 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:59.080 to generate traction and stay operating. It turns out thousands 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:03.640 of people constantly freaking out creates high social media engagement, 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.280 and this creates a loop where trans panic fearmongering boosts 0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:13.120 social media engagement, which further encourages more irresponsible clickbait framing. 0:44:13.840 --> 0:44:17.520 Those who are successful may slowly develop a new class position, 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:22.239 which then needs to be maintained. Financial incentives may even 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:24.880 pressure journalists who have done good work in the past 0:44:25.600 --> 0:44:29.400 to fall back on panic driven engagement bait to attract 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:34.160 new traffic. This isn't exclusive to trans outlets either. Following 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:37.160 the assassination of Charlie kirk Ken, Klippenstein reported on his 0:44:37.200 --> 0:44:41.520 substack that the FBI was about to quote designate transgender 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:48.759 people as violent extremists. His report contained no new, verifiable information. 0:44:49.400 --> 0:44:53.239 The core evidence was an unnamed quote unquote senior official 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:57.480 who told the Clippenstein he quote unquote feels like trans 0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:03.239 people could be labeled nihilist via extremists. Clippenstein has previously 0:45:03.280 --> 0:45:07.680 misunderstood the nihilist violent extremism label. The term actually predates 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:10.640 the second Trump administration and refers to groups like seven 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:14.920 sixty four Child's extortion rings and communities like the school 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:20.239 shooter fandom TCC. Hours before Clippenstein's report was published, the 0:45:20.280 --> 0:45:24.160 Heritage Foundation and the Oversight Project publicly released a petition 0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:29.560 calling for a new classification of extremism called trans ideology 0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:34.560 inspired violent extremism, to categorize attacks they believed are motivated 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:39.840 by transgender ideology. The petition memo denied that all trans 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:43.680 people and their allies would be designated domestic terrorists. Under 0:45:43.680 --> 0:45:48.279 this label, only those who quote, encourage, promote, condone, take 0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:53.160 or insight unlawful violent action or threats based on this 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:58.400 ideology unquote. The Heritage petition also runs contrary to Clippenstein's 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:02.319 report by advocating against the use of the nihilist violent 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:08.760 extremism label to describe transgender motivated violence. A Heritage petition 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:13.359 to establish a new category of extremism is different from 0:46:13.360 --> 0:46:16.840 an unnamed official who feels like trans people as a 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:20.759 whole could be labeled as nihilist violent extremists, and it's 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:26.120 important to understand that distinction. That was last September. It's 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:29.200 now half a year later, and neither of these things 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.440 has come to fruition. The closest we got was in 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:36.600 late September, following Trump's Antifa Terrorism executive Order with the 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:42.040 National Security Presidential Memorandum Number seven, which listed quote extremism 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:47.120 on migration, race, and gender as common recurrent motivations and 0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:51.920 indica of violent and terroristic activities under the umbrella of 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:57.640 self described anti fascism unquote, among many other threads animating 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:03.480 violent conduct. Regardless of that, people online interpreted both Clippenstein's 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:08.359 report and the Heritage petition as meaning the FBI classified 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:13.160 the entire class of trans people as domestic terrorists. Social 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:18.240 media both amplifies and distorts already misleading claims, turning news 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:21.719 into a massive game of telephone, and the siloing of 0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:26.320 certain users and platforms makes countering this misinformation incredibly difficult. 0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:30.640 The social media economy carries certain incentives for the producers 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:34.480 of panic bait that could be attention, status, and money, 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.000 but the consumers of panic also stand to gain something 0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:43.279 catharsis justification for their actions or lack thereof, as well 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:48.600 as attention from fellow consumers. These clickbait panic pieces explode 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:51.640 around trans Twitter, which is still quite active, consisting of 0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:56.160 sex workers, gamers, TTT style posters, and zoomers who think 0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.440 Blue Sky is crunch and liberal. Some of these panic stories, 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:02.120 like the FDA A registry, don't do very well on 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.840 Blue Sky because that's where a lot of trans journalists 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:08.799 who do actual journalism are, but those journalists are not 0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:12.640 active on Twitter and TikTok, making it harder to counter 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:17.439 our misinformation on those platforms. Countering trans paniclick bait also 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:21.480 suffers from algorithmic suppression because it doesn't get people as 0:48:21.560 --> 0:48:25.080 riled up. A wave of emotionally charged doom posting is 0:48:25.120 --> 0:48:29.680 boosted much farther than a calm and calculated rebuttal. The 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:32.960 biggest TikTok about ICE detaining people under suspicion of being 0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:37.600 trans has one point two million views. The biggest TikTok 0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:41.280 fact checking this claim has two hundred and ninety thousand views. 0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:46.640 So much of social media politics is emotional manipulation based 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:51.160 on anger, fear, or catharsis. Posting about perceived danger is 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:54.520 essentially viewed as a form of activism, and if someone 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.320 casts a doubt on what's seen as an existential threat, 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:03.440 that person becomes emotionally equated with the enemy. Panic produces helplessness, 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:08.600 but helplessness can actually be cathartic for the individual. It's 0:49:08.680 --> 0:49:12.839 not helpful for people currently in the most danger. So 0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:15.359 then what is there to do in terms of the 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:19.280 trans panic information economy. Don't be afraid to openly question 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:22.879 the legitimacy of certain reporting due to fear of backlash 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:26.400 from the community. If it's good reporting, it should be 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:29.279 able to stand up to scrutiny. So when you see 0:49:29.320 --> 0:49:32.759 a new story that triggers an emotional response. Stop a 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:36.480 moment before clicking share and find out where this claim 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:40.120 is coming from. A reliable journalistic outlet, an independent publication. 0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:43.400 What other reporting has this publication done? Has it been accurate? 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:46.080 Who is the reporter? Are you familiar with their reporting? 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:48.920 What else have they reported on? Is it speculative? Are 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:52.399 there logical jumps without supporting evidence? Again, I'm not trying 0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:55.640 to minimize the danger coming from a tax on trans people. 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.400 Quite the contrary, the right is continuing to take away 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:03.279 trans rights and these threats should be treated seriously. But 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:06.400 when trying to counter these real attacks, one must be 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:10.680 cautious about looking so far ahead into this speculative future 0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:13.600 that it takes the focus away from the clear and 0:50:13.680 --> 0:50:17.719 present harms. This isn't about trusting the government, It's about 0:50:17.840 --> 0:50:21.400 understanding the world in order to change it. See you 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:25.040 on the other side. You can find a text version 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:29.600 of this episode on the Shatterzone substack, with hyper links 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:33.719 available for many of the terms or reporting referenced. 0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:48.880 Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me James, 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.760 and I'm very lucky to be joined by Marianne today. 0:50:52.040 --> 0:50:57.000 He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan diaspora, writer, photographer, 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:01.840 and we're gonna talk today and at about our shared 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:06.040 frustration with the left in this country talking about Venezuelan people, 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.000 but not to Venezuelan people. So thanks for. 0:51:08.040 --> 0:51:10.160 Joining me tonight, Thank you for having me. 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:13.560 Yeah, this is something that we've been trying to put 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:15.279 together for a while, and I'm really glad that we're 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:17.960 finally doing it. So I guess if I can just 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:21.400 frame this discussion, We've spoken about this extensively, so like 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:24.840 I'm sure we won't need much much prompting. I do 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:28.600 not understand how people arrive at a position of identifying 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:30.719 as being leftists if they don't love and care about 0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:33.520 other people, And if you love and care about other people, 0:51:33.560 --> 0:51:36.719 then you should listen to them. And I am appalled 0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:42.359 at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:46.160 voices for the most part, where people will talk to 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:48.600 Venezuelan's at all in the US press. It's far too 0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:52.319 often people in the diaspora who are talking to the 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:57.920 right wing of media and highlighting what are sometimes recent 0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:02.600 objections to Madulas, sometimes which are completely insane. But it's 0:52:03.239 --> 0:52:05.080 a complete failing of us on the left to not 0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:08.240 talk to people from Venezuela. Maybe you could just share 0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:12.359 with us, like how it's been since January. To see 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:14.279 it offered it as a binary right. You can either 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:16.920 exist on the Maduro and people can live in poverty 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:23.120 and suffer, or you can watch your country get bombed 0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:27.360 and choose like mcm like and none of this is happening. 0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:29.640 Was asking you what you would like, Can you like 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:30.719 share how that's been. 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.960 Oh my god, it's been. It's been a wild ride. 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:39.920 I mean, there's a lot of different emotions going on, 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:43.000 which is one of the things that I think a 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:47.480 lot of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah, 0:52:47.560 --> 0:52:49.399 just a lot of emotions. I mean I remember when 0:52:49.400 --> 0:52:54.560 it first happened. I immediately messaged my family back home, 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:59.840 So my brother, my mom, my, my grandparents. My family 0:52:59.880 --> 0:53:03.399 is from Karaka, so they were all right. They were 0:53:03.400 --> 0:53:05.120 just saying, you know, it's calm where where we are, 0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:09.399 it's fine. But yeah, the immediate thing was concerned. Then 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:13.319 obviously I couldn't sleep that night because of everything that 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:16.160 was going on. I live in Europe, so by that 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:18.560 time it was like, I don't know, it was like 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:21.560 five in the morning or something eight in the morning. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:24.239 I don't remember it was. It's all just a blur 0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:27.719 to me now, but I remember I was just like 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:32.600 on my phone seeing the updates like every minute, trying 0:53:32.640 --> 0:53:35.799 to contact my friends who did live in Karakas, and 0:53:35.840 --> 0:53:39.160 they were just saying, yeah, like we hear bombs. We 0:53:39.200 --> 0:53:42.040 don't know what's going on. And then eventually, like some 0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:46.799 people started saying that they bomb liked some strategic military 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:51.000 basis or like in Paracio Mira Flores, which is the 0:53:51.160 --> 0:53:55.280 presidential house, and so everyone was like all over the place, 0:53:55.480 --> 0:53:59.319 and then we got all this information that they took 0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:00.480 Maduro whatever. 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:05.920 And then at that point it was just like Okay, concern, worry. 0:54:06.080 --> 0:54:11.920 Confusion, and then joy because not because the place was 0:54:12.000 --> 0:54:16.840 bombed by Americans, but because this guy was like taken 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:18.760 away who he deserves. 0:54:18.400 --> 0:54:20.120 Worse than prison, to be honest. 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:25.200 But then concern again because what are the Americans gonna 0:54:25.239 --> 0:54:29.040 do now? So it was just a lot of different 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:32.920 things going on, Like I think a lot of people, 0:54:33.280 --> 0:54:39.000 including myself, were just like paralyzed by all these different emotions, 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:43.640 like joy because again, this guy who has done horrible 0:54:43.719 --> 0:54:47.120 things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his 0:54:47.280 --> 0:54:51.120 crime somewhere, but at the same time fear because of 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:52.480 what is going to happen next. 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:54.960 I mean, we're not dumb, we know what the US 0:54:55.680 --> 0:54:56.680 is capable of. 0:54:57.360 --> 0:54:59.840 So it was a little bit of both of those 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:04.560 feelings after we knew what had happened. And ever since 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:10.240 then it has been just a struggle because of course 0:55:10.280 --> 0:55:13.680 there's a lot of misinformation going out there. It's been 0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:19.080 frustrating because I see many of my people's voices being 0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:22.480 silenced by people on the left. And then also you 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.160 have a lot of people on the right like appropriating 0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:30.560 our narrative to like push their own pro American propaganda whatever. 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:34.400 So it's kind of just like everyone's trying to like 0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:38.680 appropriate or steal their own narrative and suffering for their 0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:41.239 own gain, and the left and the right are doing 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:44.759 both like equally. Yeah, So it has been kind of 0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:49.719 frustrating because I mean every time I even just try 0:55:49.719 --> 0:55:53.200 to leave a comment on Instagram or say something, I'm 0:55:53.320 --> 0:55:59.360 called a fascist like Trump supporters, Cia Masade agent whatever. 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:04.920 And you know, it's frustrating to see so many people 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:08.080 because most of the people I follow are like leftists, right, 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:11.560 But I've unfollowed like seventy percent of the people I 0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:14.960 used to follow because they started posting like Promaduro stuff 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:17.800 and talking about how he was so great whatever. 0:56:18.120 --> 0:56:20.719 And you know, it has been very. 0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:25.040 Defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to go 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:29.360 to nobody supporting us, because again, one side just wants 0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:32.920 to rob us from our resources and steal a narrative 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:35.959 to like push their own agenda. But then the other 0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:39.399 side is like completely denying or calling us like all 0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:44.359 these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right, So 0:56:44.400 --> 0:56:50.160 it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah, 0:56:50.200 --> 0:56:52.960 it has been a lot, to the point where I think, 0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:54.799 I mean, do I even have a place in the 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:57.719 world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it 0:56:57.760 --> 0:57:03.200 has been very difficult, right yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:03.960 Very disheartening. 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:08.480 But then yeah, like if that's why I told you about. 0:57:08.200 --> 0:57:10.920 The baseball thing recently, it was. 0:57:11.000 --> 0:57:14.520 Kind of like the positive thing, like a because one 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:16.920 of the good things about that game is that people 0:57:16.960 --> 0:57:20.960 were finally like getting to know us and how we're 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:24.480 actually good people, and that was kind of like a 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:28.720 pick me up after how horrible life has been since 0:57:28.840 --> 0:57:34.040 January third, So yeah. 0:57:33.080 --> 0:57:37.200 Yeah, yeah, like people obviously like undervalue sport. I think 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:40.600 they do. I wrote a book about sport and anti fascism, 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:43.000 so I'm kind of predisposed to this disposition. But like, 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:47.200 these moments of joy are really important, and like the 0:57:47.400 --> 0:57:49.360 God knows, the world tries to rob us of joy 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:51.800 at the moment, so that we should embrace them and 0:57:51.960 --> 0:57:55.120 enjoy them and not feel like we had We are 0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:57.760 like obliged to be sad because of all the sadness 0:57:57.760 --> 0:58:01.480 in our worlds. Yeah, I think something you said that 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.480 like struck home with me. Are two things I guess 0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:09.400 let's address the first one. It is fundamentally a colonial 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:15.160 impulse to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:18.360 of speaking for themselves, so you must speak for them, 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:22.560 right Like. That is something that I have seen, not 0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:26.800 just now, but for years about Venezuela, right Like, it 0:58:26.920 --> 0:58:30.760 must have been really frustrating to see this kind of 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:38.360 campiss tendency to literally steal like the voice of Venezuelan 0:58:38.400 --> 0:58:39.800 people to speak on their behalf. 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:43.520 Yeah, that's nothing new though, I mean I remember when 0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:46.120 I was in college it was kind of the same. 0:58:46.200 --> 0:58:48.560 Like there were I think it was like twenty seventeen. 0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:52.280 There were some protests and people were saying all sorts 0:58:52.280 --> 0:58:56.200 of things, and I remember losing a lot of my 0:58:56.320 --> 0:58:59.360 friends in college because of that, because I was saying, like, 0:58:59.600 --> 0:59:02.800 you know, it's more complicated than that, like you know, 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:06.120 actually people do dislike this person for this, this and 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:10.200 this reason. And yeah, I remember losing a lot of 0:59:10.240 --> 0:59:13.840 friends because of that. Maybe not a mental breakdown, because 0:59:13.840 --> 0:59:16.080 it was just like a right. 0:59:16.840 --> 0:59:17.120 Yeah. 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:19.720 I remember even at one point I went to like 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:22.760 a cafe. It was one of these like calfes where 0:59:22.880 --> 0:59:25.600 people right on the walls and it said like fuck Venezuelan, 0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:29.160 and I was just like, what a fucking dystopia am 0:59:29.240 --> 0:59:31.720 I living in? And I also used to work at 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:35.680 a front desk and this guy somehow found out that 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:39.600 I was Venezuelan and he started saying like, oh, Madulu's 0:59:39.640 --> 0:59:42.880 the best, like whatever, and my boss had to come 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:45.040 in and like take the guy away because he was 0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:47.000 just being really like rowdy. 0:59:47.160 --> 0:59:50.200 Right, So yeah, it's calm. 0:59:50.760 --> 0:59:54.560 Yeah, in fact, us like when we introduce ourselves, like 0:59:54.600 --> 0:59:57.480 we don't say that we're Venezuelan and immediately just because 0:59:57.920 --> 0:59:59.680 it can be dangerous at times. 1:00:00.560 --> 1:00:04.640 So yeah, especially now we have this combination of like 1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:08.080 we we've discussed this, but like on the on the right, 1:00:08.200 --> 1:00:11.160 venez will and people are all perceived to be fucking 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:15.040 members of trend Ragua now and then yeah, it's that 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:17.360 or you line up behind the regime. And even when 1:00:17.880 --> 1:00:20.200 those two things like are not as distinct as people 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:22.840 you know sometimes in their imagination see them, or that 1:00:22.880 --> 1:00:24.720 they're also not as joint as other people in their 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:28.800 imagination see them. Yeah, it doesn't give you a place 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.200 to express your identity, right, you just have to fit 1:00:31.240 --> 1:00:35.040 into someone else's box. Yeah, something else you said really 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:38.640 struck me, Like there seems to be and again it's 1:00:38.680 --> 1:00:41.440 like it's not distinct from the colonial impulse, right, I 1:00:41.480 --> 1:00:44.320 think about the uplift civilized and Christianized, or the white 1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:48.480 man's burden or these like notions of people who were 1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:52.000 subject to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of, 1:00:52.720 --> 1:00:54.720 and like, what are the things I see? It is 1:00:54.840 --> 1:00:57.400 like the idea that Venezuelan people are not aware of 1:00:57.600 --> 1:01:02.640 United States imperialism. I lived with Chilean's in Caracas in 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:06.640 like the first decade of this century, right, Like people 1:01:06.720 --> 1:01:09.760 were very extremely fucking aware, Like I live with people 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:13.440 who have been tortured because of because of United States imperialism. 1:01:13.520 --> 1:01:16.120 They've played me to have our records and then told 1:01:16.160 --> 1:01:19.360 me how they chopped his hands off, right, Like, Yeah, 1:01:19.520 --> 1:01:21.680 you're a person on the left. You have an understanding 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:24.560 of the world and world politics, and you've studied and traveled, 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:27.280 But like, there is a cultural understanding of this right 1:01:27.320 --> 1:01:30.200 which does not require one to attend university. Can you 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:34.240 explain how people because people are weighing on the one hand, 1:01:34.280 --> 1:01:38.240 we have this malorda regime which is killing people, which 1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:42.200 has imprisoning people, and which is acting as a fundamental 1:01:42.280 --> 1:01:45.000 constrain on our autonomy. And on the other hand, we 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:47.520 have the Americans dropping bombs and we know what the 1:01:47.560 --> 1:01:50.640 Americans have done, Yeah to this part of the world. 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:52.840 If you could just talk on that little bit, explain 1:01:52.920 --> 1:01:54.800 how people live with that balance. 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:58.440 I think it's a combination of multiple things. 1:01:58.560 --> 1:02:02.520 So first, I mean, for many years, the government horribly 1:02:02.560 --> 1:02:06.080 mismanaged the country and then blamed the US for everything 1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:09.000 that went wrong. I mean, there were moments in which 1:02:09.040 --> 1:02:12.200 we knew and had proof that these problems were coming 1:02:12.280 --> 1:02:15.880 directly from the regime's actions, and yet so many times 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.320 they simply lied about it and said that it was 1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:21.400 the US's fault, to the point where many of us were, 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:25.280 you know, simply desensitized to the idea of US intervention. 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:27.520 It's a case of the boy who cried a wolf, 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:30.920 but in this case, it was the dictator who cried intervention. 1:02:31.480 --> 1:02:31.680 Yeah. 1:02:32.240 --> 1:02:35.360 Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every 1:02:35.440 --> 1:02:39.960 cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:43.680 to the people. Our resources have been going to other 1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:47.160 country let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple, 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:51.320 and yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a 1:02:51.360 --> 1:02:55.000 single cent of that. So at this point, we're used 1:02:55.000 --> 1:02:58.120 to being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:01.640 when people in the US say, hey, the US only 1:03:01.680 --> 1:03:04.840 wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:08.200 to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we 1:03:08.280 --> 1:03:11.800 have already been living through that very same thing for decades, 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:16.640 and many believe that our material reality won't be affected 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:21.360 just because now it's someone else stealing out resources. If anything, 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:24.680 people are willing to see if these new guys, aka 1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:29.280 the US, might do things differently now, whether that's right 1:03:29.360 --> 1:03:33.520 or not, what it really speaks to I think is 1:03:34.200 --> 1:03:37.600 I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate. 1:03:38.360 --> 1:03:41.880 Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about 1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:44.440 to get so much worse or so bad or whatever, 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:48.800 they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten. 1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:52.480 I mean, I remember going to school during like the 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:56.640 worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal 1:03:56.960 --> 1:04:00.120 dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image 1:04:00.240 --> 1:04:04.160 I still have nightmares with. And I mean for a time, 1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.960 I remember someone I knew dying or being killed every 1:04:08.040 --> 1:04:08.880 single week. 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:13.160 The abuse and the torture we've endured at the hands 1:04:13.200 --> 1:04:13.960 of this regime. 1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:17.240 I mean, anyone can google, like what's going on in 1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:21.600 places like Ellinikoire or La Pumba or any of the 1:04:21.680 --> 1:04:25.760 other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience 1:04:26.080 --> 1:04:32.640 mock in real executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals, rape, 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:36.240 being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of 1:04:36.320 --> 1:04:40.560 medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.160 desperate for a change, any change. And the fact is 1:04:44.240 --> 1:04:47.600 that the global campus left ors me and my friends 1:04:47.640 --> 1:04:51.160 have begun calling them the imperial Left, has done nothing 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:55.800 for us they've given us no sustainable solution, and if anything, 1:04:56.160 --> 1:04:59.280 have completely sided with our pressors. So you know, if 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:03.000 Trump and says I recognize this regime is bad and 1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:05.560 I'm going to do something about it, people are going 1:05:05.600 --> 1:05:08.960 to take that. And this is what is so frustrating 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:13.080 to me is that many of these leftists will go 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:17.800 ahead and then criticize Venezuelans for siding with their enemies. 1:05:17.880 --> 1:05:21.640 But what they don't see is that they have sided 1:05:21.680 --> 1:05:25.520 with ours, and at the end, all that does is 1:05:25.600 --> 1:05:29.920 make life even harder for us. We've gone so desperate 1:05:30.080 --> 1:05:33.320 that we've run directly into the hands of vultures because 1:05:33.960 --> 1:05:37.400 they're the only hands that we've been given. I personally 1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:40.040 don't love what the US is doing to our country, 1:05:40.080 --> 1:05:44.280 but I mean I understand why many Venezuelans have reacted 1:05:44.560 --> 1:05:47.200 the way that they have, and this is how I 1:05:47.240 --> 1:05:51.520 can best explain it to those who don't understand it. 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:52.040 It's sad. 1:05:52.360 --> 1:05:55.160 I know, it's very sad, and it's hard for people 1:05:55.200 --> 1:05:57.800 who haven't lived through this to wrap their heads around 1:05:58.360 --> 1:06:02.720 this level of despair. But it's the simple truth, and 1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:05.880 it's a hard truth that I think many leftists need 1:06:05.960 --> 1:06:09.000 to hear and understand. And I say that as someone 1:06:09.040 --> 1:06:12.000 who is also saddened by this, because I want to 1:06:12.040 --> 1:06:15.360 see a more left leaning future, especially for my country. 1:06:15.400 --> 1:06:18.640 But I don't think it can happen if people don't 1:06:18.680 --> 1:06:21.520 start accepting realities like these. 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:34.240 The other thing that gets collapsed a lot, I think, 1:06:34.360 --> 1:06:37.920 is a Venezuelan opposition, right. Like it is always amusing 1:06:37.960 --> 1:06:41.000 to see, Like I myself, I'm not a communist, right 1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:45.440 I'm not a state communist anyway. And I've seen like 1:06:45.440 --> 1:06:48.680 the Venezuelan Communist Party and the Communist youth of Venezuela, 1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:52.840 Like they'll put out a thing being like, we support opposition, 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:56.160 and then you'll see people being like, oh, no, we're communists, 1:06:56.200 --> 1:06:58.960 but like like American communists who don't speak Spanish, Yeah, 1:06:59.000 --> 1:07:02.480 like I engaged with them. It's it's very funny to 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:06.640 see that, like in their mind all opposition in Venezuela 1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:10.240 is of the right wing, like MTM, yeah, tendency right, Like, 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:14.320 there are many very valid reasons where people on the 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:17.160 left will be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel 1:07:17.160 --> 1:07:20.000 particularly isolating to be of the left and at the 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:23.560 same time have this constant assumption that to be in 1:07:23.560 --> 1:07:24.960 an opposition you have to be of the right. 1:07:25.440 --> 1:07:29.520 It feels isolating when it comes to dealing with non Venezuelans, 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:32.560 But when it comes dealing with Venezuelans, not really. I 1:07:32.560 --> 1:07:36.280 mean pretty much all of my friends, I mean as 1:07:36.320 --> 1:07:40.760 a queer artist, like most of my friends are also 1:07:40.960 --> 1:07:44.480 like pretty left leaning. Yeah, you have different kinds of 1:07:44.520 --> 1:07:47.800 people on the left, right, But but yeah, like when 1:07:47.840 --> 1:07:51.200 it comes to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating 1:07:51.200 --> 1:07:55.080 at all because precisely we already know what's going on. 1:07:55.520 --> 1:07:58.720 You know, we know that the that the opposition isn't 1:07:58.840 --> 1:07:59.200 just like. 1:07:59.160 --> 1:08:01.480 A right wing saying yeah, I don't know. 1:08:01.520 --> 1:08:05.880 It doesn't feel isolating because we know the political diversity 1:08:05.920 --> 1:08:08.080 that exists, right, Yeah, and so you just kind of 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:10.200 have to find your tribe and it exists. 1:08:10.240 --> 1:08:10.920 Again, we're a. 1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:14.480 Country where people have all different sorts of opinions, and 1:08:14.520 --> 1:08:18.799 so you know, between my Venezuela and friends, it seems 1:08:18.880 --> 1:08:21.719 pretty what's the opposite of isolating. 1:08:21.320 --> 1:08:22.920 Yeah, like inclusive, I guess. 1:08:24.080 --> 1:08:25.360 Yeah. 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:28.519 When it's dealing with my non Venezuelan friends, that's when 1:08:28.520 --> 1:08:34.200 it gets isolating because there's just not an understanding, Like 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:37.639 they just don't seem to understand. No matter how much 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:40.400 I try to break it down to them or how 1:08:40.479 --> 1:08:42.280 much I try to explain to them. I have been 1:08:42.320 --> 1:08:46.520 successful and many of my good friends who are like leftists, 1:08:46.520 --> 1:08:50.439 most of them are anarchists. But when I do try 1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:54.000 to explain it to them, they do seem to understand 1:08:54.080 --> 1:08:56.439 because they know who I am and they know that 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:58.240 I'm not like, you know, bullshitting them. 1:08:58.600 --> 1:09:00.559 But yeah, but again that doesn't mean. 1:09:00.600 --> 1:09:03.519 Like I told you earlier, I have lost many, many friends, 1:09:04.080 --> 1:09:07.479 and you know, have had to unfollow many people like 1:09:07.920 --> 1:09:10.880 I don't feel welcome in all, like leftists or even 1:09:10.960 --> 1:09:16.479 queer spaces sometimes because of what I think, which is, 1:09:16.640 --> 1:09:20.360 you know, a free Venezuela isn't just free from imperialism 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:21.840 but also free from dictatorship. 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:22.559 It's free from both. 1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:25.400 Yeah, yeah, right, I shouldn't be controversial. 1:09:25.840 --> 1:09:29.960 But that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like, 1:09:30.200 --> 1:09:33.600 they completely agree because it's similar to me. But my 1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:37.599 non Venezuelan friends or ex friends, as I should say, 1:09:38.160 --> 1:09:39.960 they just don't understand that at all. 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:43.040 So it's always interesting. Like you know, I spent a 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:45.840 good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the 1:09:45.920 --> 1:09:48.360 United States, so have recently arrived in the United States, 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:53.000 and it's funny to see how people represent their operation 1:09:53.360 --> 1:09:56.000 to Maduro, like because at first I'll be like, oh, 1:09:56.040 --> 1:09:58.160 it's guys an American, so they're like, oh, it'd be great. 1:09:58.200 --> 1:10:00.360 The Americans came to liberate ats and like, you know, 1:10:00.360 --> 1:10:03.479 what a wonderful country. And then like, once people begin 1:10:03.520 --> 1:10:05.880 to feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more, 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:08.439 everybody knows we don't have it all figure out either. 1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:11.960 Everybody knows the history right like, and then people, yes, 1:10:12.080 --> 1:10:15.439 of course have a wide and varied range of things 1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:17.960 that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:21.519 are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship yeah and 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:22.200 stay violent. 1:10:22.920 --> 1:10:23.360 Yeah no. 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:26.800 And I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:30.919 thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because 1:10:31.040 --> 1:10:35.240 I may have differences with other people who may be 1:10:35.439 --> 1:10:39.679 moderates or right wing or whatever, but we've all united 1:10:40.160 --> 1:10:43.280 against this like bigger evil. And I think that's something 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:46.720 that I wish actually the US could learn about, right 1:10:46.800 --> 1:10:51.920 putting their differences aside to actually like tackle that bigger evil. 1:10:52.320 --> 1:10:54.519 I think that's something that US should learn about us. 1:10:54.520 --> 1:10:57.599 How we've been able to do that. How you know, 1:10:57.800 --> 1:10:59.800 we can all say, you know, we may not agree 1:10:59.880 --> 1:11:02.519 on on how certain things are done, but we all 1:11:02.600 --> 1:11:06.559 agree on what needs to be done, which is you know, 1:11:06.840 --> 1:11:10.600 like getting rid of this regime, right, So yeah, I 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:14.360 mean it's it's actually pretty pretty cool. And although it's 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:17.240 not always easy because again, like you have, like in 1:11:17.280 --> 1:11:20.120 any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on, 1:11:20.800 --> 1:11:24.479 it is really nice to see everyone united for one 1:11:24.560 --> 1:11:27.920 thing and one reason and that's really the important thing. 1:11:28.600 --> 1:11:31.840 So so you know, I wish other countries could maybe 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:33.360 learn a little bit about that too. 1:11:34.200 --> 1:11:38.639 Yeah, left in this country could learn a lot from 1:11:38.680 --> 1:11:44.720 the way that, like a vast variety of left organizations 1:11:44.720 --> 1:11:48.479 in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are 1:11:49.080 --> 1:11:51.800 more centrist, so straight up on the right, Yeah, to 1:11:51.840 --> 1:11:56.320 achieve at least one goal, with the understanding that they 1:11:56.360 --> 1:12:00.000 still retain disagreements that are pro found. 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:02.320 Other things exactly. 1:12:02.600 --> 1:12:04.320 That's something we can learn a lot from. And like, 1:12:04.560 --> 1:12:07.680 I'm always kind of in awe of the capacity for 1:12:07.800 --> 1:12:12.000 solidarity that I see, especially from Venezuelan people, like and 1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:14.920 I think it comes from in part, like decades of 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:18.920 dictatorship and earn of hardship more generally, right, But like 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:23.840 the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it 1:12:23.920 --> 1:12:26.760 together rather than for each person to get their own 1:12:26.960 --> 1:12:31.600 and sort of leave the rest behind. Yeah, it's remarkable, genuinely, 1:12:31.680 --> 1:12:35.559 like seeing again, like a lot of my experience, I 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:39.759 have not been in Karrakas for probably fifteen years, maybe longer. 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:42.880 It's seeing people in the diaspora and migrants, but like 1:12:42.960 --> 1:12:46.840 people who have grown so used to the state ironically 1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:50.120 failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:54.120 got used to just obtaining them and from each other. Like, 1:12:54.200 --> 1:12:57.120 even if those people are not anarchists, they are probably 1:12:57.240 --> 1:12:59.519 doing more mutual aid than people who spend a lot 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:02.360 of their time being anarchists on the internet. Yeah, Like 1:13:02.400 --> 1:13:05.439 that's a beautiful thing that we should be in aura 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:09.200 of rather than invalidating. It's so many people on the 1:13:09.280 --> 1:13:09.680 left e. 1:13:10.600 --> 1:13:13.439 And I think that's something that really starts with our 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:18.760 own crisis, because I remember at the height of the famine, right, 1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:24.559 I mean I'm speaking maybe like twenty thirteen fourteen around time, 1:13:25.080 --> 1:13:28.559 because by twenty seventeen, when there was like another big 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:31.919 like famine going on, I was not in Venezuela actually, 1:13:32.439 --> 1:13:34.640 but I remember when that was happening, like it was 1:13:34.760 --> 1:13:37.680 very common, Like, hey, so in my backyard we had 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:40.600 plant takes and our neighbor had avocado, so you we 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:45.520 would like exchange things somebody needed anything, like if somebody's 1:13:45.560 --> 1:13:48.759 grandmother needed like this medication that can only be found 1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:51.599 in like this one place in Karakas, like. But then 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:54.400 I didn't have gas, but maybe like my cousin had 1:13:54.560 --> 1:13:57.559 gas so that we could drive to Karakas like. So 1:13:57.640 --> 1:14:00.920 that's kind of how it worked back there, Like we 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:04.280 had that solidarity towards each other, and I think obviously 1:14:04.280 --> 1:14:06.640 if we go abroad, we're going to continue showing that 1:14:06.760 --> 1:14:10.040 same Yeah, I like that same attitude because it's just 1:14:10.120 --> 1:14:12.240 like part of who we are. 1:14:12.600 --> 1:14:15.200 I guess, yeah, it just seems to be very much 1:14:15.240 --> 1:14:18.240 like part of the character of community. It's even like 1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:21.240 when I was there, you know, a decade before that, 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:23.840 quite a decade maybe sometime before that. It's funny, I 1:14:23.880 --> 1:14:26.080 went to this place where they're having like a revolution 1:14:26.200 --> 1:14:29.800 which was extremely grounded in state power, and came out 1:14:29.800 --> 1:14:32.880 realizing that the state is not the vehicle for human 1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:36.639 liberation and the other people are just I just find this, 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:39.200 this impulse on the left to invalidate and and like 1:14:39.240 --> 1:14:44.120 therefore refuse to learn from Venezuelan people so frustrating. It's 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:47.840 like a mile phrase. But like what can people do? 1:14:48.000 --> 1:14:48.160 Right? 1:14:48.200 --> 1:14:51.800 Like, We're in a situation now where we have like 1:14:52.520 --> 1:14:55.400 Maduro without Maduda rail, but we have Delsa doing like 1:14:55.520 --> 1:14:57.599 tweeting how much he likes Donald Trump all the time. 1:14:58.160 --> 1:15:01.040 We are the worst of all possible outcomes. Really, right, 1:15:01.120 --> 1:15:04.439 we still have this apparatus for repression. But at the 1:15:04.479 --> 1:15:08.320 same time, the US is basically engaged in a colonial 1:15:08.360 --> 1:15:11.040 relationship of extraction of resources and anything else it wants 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:14.360 from Venezuela. Like, how can people better be in solidarity 1:15:14.720 --> 1:15:17.720 instead of like trying to force you all into one 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:20.559 box or another box. Yeah, if we assume most of 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:24.639 our audiences in Europe or the United States, right, and they, yeah, 1:15:24.680 --> 1:15:27.720 there haven't been big Like we're in solidarity with the 1:15:27.800 --> 1:15:31.920 Venezuelan anarchists or even the Venezuelan socialist or communists who 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:34.400 are opposed to Maduro to DELTI Now. 1:15:34.680 --> 1:15:39.160 For non Venezuelans, I think the key thing is to 1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:44.920 speak about this from a complete perspective. The whole perspective, 1:15:45.320 --> 1:15:48.480 because what's the issue. And I can tell you personally. 1:15:48.560 --> 1:15:53.760 Sometimes I see, I don't know, like anti imperialists, you know, 1:15:54.000 --> 1:15:56.439 US get out of ven Azula protests, and I would 1:15:56.520 --> 1:15:59.240 love to join because I want the US out of 1:15:59.240 --> 1:15:59.919 my country. 1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:02.680 But then I see them with pro Maduro. 1:16:02.439 --> 1:16:07.879 Signs or just like free Maduro or you know, talking 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:11.120 positively about the regime, and then I'm like, ugh, actually, 1:16:11.240 --> 1:16:14.439 I'm not going to participate in that. So you know, 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:19.160 you're actively excluding Venezuelan voices by doing these kinds of 1:16:20.000 --> 1:16:22.880 unilateral thing. And what do I mean by unilateral? So 1:16:24.040 --> 1:16:30.240 I understand that many let's say Western non Venezuelans are 1:16:30.520 --> 1:16:34.160 speaking and looking at things from their own perspective, which 1:16:34.200 --> 1:16:35.599 is Trump is a bad guy. 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:37.559 He's not going to do anything positive. 1:16:37.840 --> 1:16:40.479 We know the history of the US, and so they 1:16:40.520 --> 1:16:44.320 are from their own perspective. They see what they're bad 1:16:44.360 --> 1:16:49.160 guy is doing, right right from the Venezuelan perspective, we 1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:53.120 also see what our bad guy is doing. Like we're 1:16:53.160 --> 1:16:56.519 speaking up about this particular bad guy more than what 1:16:56.600 --> 1:16:57.520 we are about. 1:16:57.240 --> 1:16:59.040 Trump, the other bad guy. 1:17:00.000 --> 1:17:03.559 It's kind of like we have two different perspectives here 1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:09.880 and both are looking at their own right, And so 1:17:10.560 --> 1:17:17.000 the issue here is that those two perspectives are not combined, right. 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:19.640 So I would say the first thing you need to 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:23.920 understand is that you know, I understand why you're looking 1:17:23.960 --> 1:17:27.080 at things from your own perspective, but you also have 1:17:27.200 --> 1:17:32.120 to include Venezuelan perspectives in your activism in order for 1:17:32.160 --> 1:17:36.559 them to actually be productive towards the Venezuelan people, right, 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:40.479 Because when you say, you know Fremaduro and you know 1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:44.800 us get out of Venezuela, you're still not addressing the 1:17:44.840 --> 1:17:48.760 necessities of the Venezuelan people, right, which is we need 1:17:48.800 --> 1:17:50.960 to get out of the regime. Sure, like one of 1:17:50.960 --> 1:17:53.720 those necessities is the US getting the fuck out of there, 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:57.560 but you're not addressing the main issue. 1:17:57.160 --> 1:17:59.480 That has plagued us for the past thirty years. 1:17:59.840 --> 1:17:59.960 Right. 1:18:01.000 --> 1:18:03.760 So when you're not doing that, and that's a dangerous 1:18:03.800 --> 1:18:07.720 thing about you know, conversations like that of Venezuela or 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:11.840 Cuba or even Iran as well. When you speak about 1:18:11.960 --> 1:18:17.080 things from one specific perspective, when you omit one side, 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:20.080 you're making it seem like the other side is better, 1:18:20.800 --> 1:18:24.719 when it should be abundantly clear that both the US 1:18:24.840 --> 1:18:29.040 and Maduda need to be out in order for Venezuela 1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:33.320 to actually be free. Right, So I think it's key, 1:18:33.479 --> 1:18:37.599 it is very necessary that when we have these like 1:18:37.680 --> 1:18:41.559 free Venezuela protests, it's not just about the US, but 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:46.840 it's also protesting the Madula regime, right because otherwise what 1:18:46.880 --> 1:18:49.719 you're going to do is you're going to exclude many 1:18:49.760 --> 1:18:52.840 people who also want the US to back off from 1:18:52.920 --> 1:18:54.080 your own protests. 1:18:54.320 --> 1:18:54.519 Right. 1:18:54.760 --> 1:18:57.160 And if you know it's it gets even. 1:18:57.000 --> 1:19:01.640 Worse because I've seen Venezuelan activists actually getting you know, 1:19:01.800 --> 1:19:07.000 pushed out of conversations on Venezuela because they're talking about 1:19:07.160 --> 1:19:09.479 you know what I'm telling you right now, right, so 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:12.439 they're talking about what the regime has done and maybe 1:19:12.479 --> 1:19:15.519 focusing on the regime well, also mentioning that the US 1:19:15.520 --> 1:19:18.400 should like, you know, they know US history, but they're 1:19:18.439 --> 1:19:22.080 focusing on the Venezuelan perspective because it's a Venezuelan that's 1:19:22.080 --> 1:19:24.840 what you want to bring into the conversation, right, Like 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:28.240 non Venezuelans can go ahead and out of that you know, 1:19:28.320 --> 1:19:32.000 anti peerless part of the conversation or you know, perspective 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:34.439 to the conversation. But they do need to make space 1:19:34.479 --> 1:19:36.640 for the Venezuelans who also need to speak out of 1:19:36.640 --> 1:19:39.040 the regime, right, So it needs to be a combination 1:19:39.160 --> 1:19:42.400 of both, and in your advocacy you have to include 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:46.080 both at the same time always because again, if you 1:19:46.120 --> 1:19:50.160 don't speak about one, then you're sort of like portraying 1:19:50.160 --> 1:19:53.679 the other one is like the good side, right, And 1:19:53.800 --> 1:19:57.120 what that does is that continues to isolate Venezuelan's I mean, 1:19:57.160 --> 1:19:59.680 including myself, Like I said, I can't even go to 1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:03.240 free and as well protest because I'm never going to be, 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:06.040 you know, next to somebody chanting free ma duro. 1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:06.960 Yeah. 1:20:07.000 --> 1:20:11.000 So that's like the key thing that the leftist, like 1:20:11.000 --> 1:20:13.040 non Venezuelan leftists need to understand. 1:20:13.479 --> 1:20:17.640 Yeah, I think a lot about how people on the 1:20:17.760 --> 1:20:22.640 left for some reason, and this is particularly odd with 1:20:23.120 --> 1:20:25.320 the fact that we have lived through a genocide in 1:20:25.360 --> 1:20:29.280 Gaza for two and a half years, the people seem 1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.640 to only be able to understand solidarity with states and 1:20:32.760 --> 1:20:36.240 not with people. And we have the Palestinians right, a 1:20:36.280 --> 1:20:44.320 stateless nation. People seem to understand that there to an 1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:47.839 extent right, albeit that for many people like Palatinians, statehood 1:20:47.880 --> 1:20:50.880 is a solution to the problem. It just seems to 1:20:50.920 --> 1:20:54.280 be such a condemnation of the organizing or much of 1:20:54.320 --> 1:20:57.960 the left that people cannot and this is my general 1:20:57.960 --> 1:21:00.479 frustration with the world, well one of them. They can't 1:21:00.479 --> 1:21:03.640 think outside of the state model. They cannot conceive of 1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:08.240 an alternative that does not already exist. Yeah, even though 1:21:08.280 --> 1:21:11.720 there are movements outside of the state right, like a 1:21:11.880 --> 1:21:15.400 Kurdish struggling in the north Easyria for example, it's one, 1:21:15.479 --> 1:21:18.639 but like I don't know, like we should be able 1:21:18.680 --> 1:21:21.720 to dream of a better world or a beautiful life, 1:21:21.920 --> 1:21:24.720 and it seems like so many people have forgotten that 1:21:24.720 --> 1:21:26.920 that's what being on the left is about. And they 1:21:26.960 --> 1:21:32.440 identify as revolutionaries, but they're extremely reactionary in their politics 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:36.879 and their goals. Like, yeah, it must be so strange 1:21:36.920 --> 1:21:39.280 to come from. I don't know how old you were. 1:21:39.320 --> 1:21:42.280 When do you remember like very early Chevismo. 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:45.519 I remember parts of it is like a memory. 1:21:45.560 --> 1:21:48.400 So I was born in ninety seven, So okay, early 1:21:48.520 --> 1:21:51.599 Chevismo was like a fever dream. 1:21:52.400 --> 1:21:55.080 I remember, you know, during like the. 1:21:56.160 --> 1:21:59.080 And all that, and yeah, I would like go outside 1:21:59.120 --> 1:22:01.240 of like my apartment and it's like like go to 1:22:01.280 --> 1:22:03.559 my window, Like we used to live in a building 1:22:04.000 --> 1:22:06.360 and we would like take out pots in like cast 1:22:06.479 --> 1:22:09.800 roles and start basing and everyone, and then that was 1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:11.680 like my favorite part of the day because I, as 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:14.200 a kid, didn't really understand that it was a protest, 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:15.880 but I loved banging on things. 1:22:15.880 --> 1:22:18.679 So I remember that. I remember like my. 1:22:18.760 --> 1:22:22.240 Parents not being able to find certain things that maybe 1:22:22.240 --> 1:22:27.080 in the past they could find. I remember like at 1:22:27.080 --> 1:22:29.400 some points, like not being able to go to school 1:22:29.400 --> 1:22:33.120 because like there was something happening. It's like you're reallyving 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:36.080 his own thing. But I remember thinking, I hope there's 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:38.040 another cool so that I don't have to go to 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:45.599 school tomorrow. Yeah, that's kind of like what I remember 1:22:45.640 --> 1:22:48.760 of early Chevismore. I also remember as well, sort of 1:22:48.760 --> 1:22:52.040 seeing the division, and that to me is like the biggest, 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:57.360 most impactful memory, right, the division that existed so on 1:22:57.600 --> 1:23:02.200 my family. I remember, just for context, like part of 1:23:02.200 --> 1:23:05.280 my family, half of my family is like middle class 1:23:05.720 --> 1:23:08.440 and the other half of my family was working class, 1:23:08.479 --> 1:23:12.240 like you know, brown working class from the coasts, right, 1:23:12.920 --> 1:23:16.120 so shout out to Okuma. So you know, it was 1:23:16.160 --> 1:23:21.080 like different realities, different necessities, And I remember both sides 1:23:21.120 --> 1:23:24.360 of the family arguing a lot, Like there was a 1:23:24.439 --> 1:23:27.400 lot of division, very similar to what's going on in 1:23:27.439 --> 1:23:30.960 the US right now in terms of division, right, yeah, 1:23:31.240 --> 1:23:34.439 where there were like heated arguments, people did not speak 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:37.880 to each other, people hated each other because of you know, 1:23:38.040 --> 1:23:40.240 like part of my family was Cha Vista, the other 1:23:40.320 --> 1:23:42.400 part was opposition or whatever. 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:44.280 It was. 1:23:44.600 --> 1:23:46.839 That was one of the biggest things that I remember, 1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:50.080 was like half of my family hating the other half 1:23:50.160 --> 1:23:53.280 of my family because they had different backgrounds and different 1:23:53.320 --> 1:23:57.880 political stances. So so yeah, that was a big thing, 1:23:57.920 --> 1:24:01.880 as well as the fanaticism right existed, especially yeh list 1:24:01.920 --> 1:24:05.280 does I mean remember my grandmother had like a poster 1:24:05.360 --> 1:24:09.080 of Chavis and like like a figurines and she dyed 1:24:09.160 --> 1:24:13.200 her hair red because she supported the regime whatever. So 1:24:13.200 --> 1:24:15.559 so that's one of the things I remember the most, 1:24:15.640 --> 1:24:19.839 is my family, both sides like hating each other because 1:24:19.840 --> 1:24:24.080 of it is And it's something that I'm seeing in 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:27.639 the US right now a lot, and I think it's 1:24:27.680 --> 1:24:29.679 operating in a very similar fashion. 1:24:30.160 --> 1:24:32.720 Yeah, it does seem to be. And like, did your 1:24:32.720 --> 1:24:35.640 family reconcile at some point, Oh, do you still have 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:37.080 people who are like die hard? 1:24:38.000 --> 1:24:38.200 No? 1:24:38.520 --> 1:24:42.280 So, for example, my grandmother that I told you about, Yeah, 1:24:42.439 --> 1:24:45.280 she says that she's still Chavista but she's not Malis. 1:24:45.600 --> 1:24:45.800 Yeah. 1:24:45.840 --> 1:24:47.120 Yeah, I've had this done too. 1:24:47.240 --> 1:24:47.479 Yeah. 1:24:47.560 --> 1:24:48.120 Yeah. 1:24:48.600 --> 1:24:51.600 It's just like, you know, she supports like what the 1:24:51.680 --> 1:24:56.920 revolution initially meant, but like she doesn't support Maduro, right yeah. 1:24:57.240 --> 1:25:01.120 Or for example, like her husband, my grandfather, he's just like, 1:25:01.160 --> 1:25:04.040 you know, this revolution was all bullshit. We thought that 1:25:04.160 --> 1:25:06.120 this was going to be good, but they ended up 1:25:06.160 --> 1:25:10.120 being absolute traders, like you know, they ended up not 1:25:10.240 --> 1:25:13.960 doing what they promised to do, right, So it was 1:25:14.000 --> 1:25:18.160 all just disappointment. And the other side of my family 1:25:18.280 --> 1:25:22.080 is just like chill, I don't know, like. 1:25:23.280 --> 1:25:24.759 They were just never chevy stuff. 1:25:24.960 --> 1:25:28.439 So that's kind of you are like strong environmentalists, so 1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:31.040 that's why they kind of hated Chavis because they were 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:34.320 also doing some crazy shit in the Amazons. So it's 1:25:34.400 --> 1:25:38.439 kind of like they do all get along much better, right, 1:25:38.680 --> 1:25:41.040 So that's good, Yeah, I guess because like once I 1:25:41.200 --> 1:25:43.760 realized that actually this guy was not that good, right, 1:25:44.080 --> 1:25:46.920 But that particular side of my family that was Chevistad 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:49.280 that's how they think right now. Or it's like either 1:25:49.439 --> 1:25:53.160 it was disappointment or that perspective of you know, I 1:25:53.160 --> 1:25:55.040 support Chavis but not Maduo. 1:25:54.960 --> 1:25:56.760 I've heard that from a lot of people, right, like 1:25:56.960 --> 1:26:00.360 what Javis wanted to make Venezuela better for us, and 1:26:00.479 --> 1:26:02.479 like if we just look at the shit he said, Yeah, 1:26:02.520 --> 1:26:03.960 I want people to have enough to eat, I want 1:26:04.000 --> 1:26:05.519 them to have education, I want them to be able 1:26:05.560 --> 1:26:07.080 to go to the hospital. I want them to have 1:26:07.160 --> 1:26:10.120 safe houses. Like I want all those things too. They 1:26:10.160 --> 1:26:14.000 didn't get those things. But like I've heard a lot 1:26:14.080 --> 1:26:17.519 of people say that, like, oh, yeah, we wanted it too, 1:26:17.560 --> 1:26:20.000 so we supported it, but it wasn't We didn't get that. 1:26:20.560 --> 1:26:26.000 We got prisons and cops exactly. And like that stance 1:26:26.120 --> 1:26:30.800 seems to be entirely absent in any discussion of Venezuela, 1:26:30.920 --> 1:26:35.280 which is it's so common, like you just don't hear 1:26:35.400 --> 1:26:38.320 the like it's not like a left critique from other 1:26:38.400 --> 1:26:41.320 left stances. It's a left critique from the same place 1:26:41.720 --> 1:26:44.439 that chav Is more claimed to come from. And it's 1:26:44.479 --> 1:26:48.479 completely absent in our discourse. And like I can't, well, 1:26:48.520 --> 1:26:52.000 it's because we don't talk to people from Venezuela. But yeah, yes, 1:26:52.120 --> 1:26:55.160 it's extremely frustrating, and I think like there's a lot 1:26:55.479 --> 1:27:00.240 that the United States can learn because we're already seeing 1:27:00.520 --> 1:27:03.559 large numbers of people being like, oh, yeah, I've voted 1:27:03.600 --> 1:27:07.880 for Trump one, two, three times, and now something has 1:27:08.520 --> 1:27:12.439 alienated them, right, whether it's mass deportations, whether it's a 1:27:12.520 --> 1:27:16.040 war with a run, whether it's the economy being shit, 1:27:16.160 --> 1:27:20.479 whatever it is, Like, we need to learn how to 1:27:22.360 --> 1:27:29.240 allow people to change their minds or like to get better, 1:27:29.400 --> 1:27:32.720 like the vendants, where in opposition wouldn't be what it 1:27:32.880 --> 1:27:34.920 was if they said anybody who supported chabb As at 1:27:34.920 --> 1:27:38.320 any point can fuck off, we don't want you, right, Like, yeah, 1:27:38.960 --> 1:27:42.040 it's it wouldn't work, It wouldn't function. And I think 1:27:42.200 --> 1:27:44.600 if we would listen to people, there's so much that 1:27:44.640 --> 1:27:47.719 we could learn from that, but we seem so locked 1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:49.960 in on talking down to them instead. 1:27:49.600 --> 1:27:52.639 That yeah, I mean exactly, That's what I mean by 1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:55.720 like it reminds me of that like division. You know, 1:27:55.840 --> 1:27:58.280 it's almost like rap, right, Like people are foaming at 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:02.200 the mouth. That's kind of like the level of division 1:28:02.200 --> 1:28:04.720 that I remember growing up. And to be honest, a 1:28:04.760 --> 1:28:07.639 lot of what's going on in the US is eerily 1:28:07.720 --> 1:28:10.439 similar to what I grew up seeing. I think both 1:28:10.479 --> 1:28:14.960 Trump and Chavas are very similar kinds of people. And 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:17.800 you know, I used to live in the US. Now 1:28:17.840 --> 1:28:19.679 I live in Europe, but that's one of the reasons 1:28:19.680 --> 1:28:23.479 I decided to leave, because I saw many similarities to 1:28:23.560 --> 1:28:26.040 what happened in my country, and I decided to just 1:28:26.640 --> 1:28:31.400 Skidadle as soon as like, because I sort of knew 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:32.320 where it was all going. 1:28:32.360 --> 1:28:33.360 But I knew where it was all. 1:28:33.280 --> 1:28:47.280 Going because of what I already lived through. There was 1:28:47.360 --> 1:28:49.559 actually one more thing that I'm thinking about it that 1:28:49.680 --> 1:28:50.719 it didn't get a chance. 1:28:50.760 --> 1:28:55.200 But you mentioned Palestine. I think it's really. 1:28:54.960 --> 1:28:59.600 Interesting because the school that I went to, actually, Venezuela 1:28:59.640 --> 1:29:03.760 has really big population of Middle Eastern people, among them Palestinians. 1:29:03.920 --> 1:29:07.479 There was a Palestine club in my hometown and I 1:29:07.560 --> 1:29:12.880 remember during was it like twenty twelve, twenty fourteen, Again 1:29:12.960 --> 1:29:18.160 this was years ago, but twenty twelve maybe twenty fourteen, 1:29:18.320 --> 1:29:21.160 At some point there were protests la Huadimbus if you 1:29:21.200 --> 1:29:26.960 know them, during Lazwuardimbas. There were protests for Venezuela whatever. 1:29:27.320 --> 1:29:29.719 And I remember that I had. 1:29:29.680 --> 1:29:35.760 Many Palestinian, like Palestinian Venezuelan classmates, and they were protesting both, right, 1:29:36.120 --> 1:29:39.320 So they had Palestinian flags and they had Venezuelan flags, 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:43.439 and they were protesting for both peoples. So you know, 1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:46.879 that's like an example whenever people say like try to divide, 1:29:46.920 --> 1:29:50.240 and you know sayy like oh, like the Maludu is 1:29:50.280 --> 1:29:52.880 like pro Palestine whatever. I think of my friends in 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:57.880 school where they were like, no, actually, we're Palestinian Venezuelans 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:01.000 and we don't like what's going on in either place. 1:30:01.720 --> 1:30:06.679 So because we do have a very big Middle Eastern population, again, 1:30:06.800 --> 1:30:11.479 many Palestinians, many Lebanese people who are not unaware of 1:30:11.560 --> 1:30:13.840 what has been going on in the Middle East, right, 1:30:14.200 --> 1:30:16.800 So that's also something to be added to the conversation, 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:19.720 is you know when we talk about these things like 1:30:19.760 --> 1:30:23.479 they're not isolated, and precisely because we're not isolated, that's 1:30:23.479 --> 1:30:25.680 why we should, like you said, like be more in 1:30:25.680 --> 1:30:27.200 support of the people rather. 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:27.719 Than the states. 1:30:27.920 --> 1:30:28.080 Right. 1:30:28.160 --> 1:30:28.400 Yeah. 1:30:28.880 --> 1:30:31.800 I wanted to bring up like that little bit of 1:30:31.920 --> 1:30:34.559 like that little memory that I had because I just 1:30:34.640 --> 1:30:37.000 remember the image of it, of my friends doing that. 1:30:37.200 --> 1:30:41.120 So yeah, it's very similar in a sense, I guess to, like, 1:30:41.160 --> 1:30:43.759 I think a lot about how the Assad regime used 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:47.479 Palestinian people, right, like it would constantly talk about fucking 1:30:47.479 --> 1:30:50.720 solidarity with Palestine, and it had all these tanks and 1:30:50.800 --> 1:30:53.960 all these guns and all these planes and bombs, and 1:30:54.000 --> 1:30:56.160 it turned them all on its certain people. Niah. It 1:30:56.200 --> 1:31:00.720 didn't use its state power to liberate Palestine, it would 1:31:00.760 --> 1:31:03.200 have been destroyed by the idea of the data, I imagine, 1:31:03.240 --> 1:31:05.720 but it used it to stake powered to kill its 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:09.679 own people. Yeah, it is so frustrating that we saw 1:31:09.760 --> 1:31:14.320 that happen and the world still allows people to tokenize 1:31:14.320 --> 1:31:17.479 the Palestinian people right and to use them as a 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:21.600 shield definitely against the oppression of their own people. I 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:24.519 think a lot of people will be thinking or listening 1:31:24.560 --> 1:31:28.360 and being like, well, I haven't really heard from Venezuelan voices, 1:31:28.479 --> 1:31:32.599 or I mean they might not know any people from Venezuela. 1:31:32.840 --> 1:31:36.320 Where can people do more to listen if they want 1:31:36.360 --> 1:31:39.880 to as they approach this issue in so much as 1:31:39.880 --> 1:31:41.759 people are still approaching it because half the US media's 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:43.360 forgotten about Venezuela already. 1:31:43.760 --> 1:31:47.160 Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on, for sure. 1:31:47.600 --> 1:31:48.120 Yeah, but. 1:31:49.560 --> 1:31:51.960 I want to say, like, this might be a little 1:31:51.960 --> 1:31:54.479 bit annoying, but learn Spanish, right, if you're going to 1:31:54.520 --> 1:31:56.639 ask it for a specific group of people, at least 1:31:56.720 --> 1:31:59.439 learn the language you know so that you actually know 1:31:59.479 --> 1:32:03.120 what people talking about. Right, not everybody speaks English. Not 1:32:03.160 --> 1:32:06.160 everybody's gonna speak your language. So if you're actually gonna 1:32:06.479 --> 1:32:10.040 take advocacy for Venezuelas seriously, then you should learn the 1:32:10.120 --> 1:32:14.320 language straight up so that you it's easier for you 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:18.080 to get into these conversations. See what local activists are saying, 1:32:18.240 --> 1:32:21.679 see what the news are saying, like see even what 1:32:21.720 --> 1:32:22.960 our leaders are saying. 1:32:23.120 --> 1:32:25.719 Right. So I think that's one of the first things. 1:32:26.160 --> 1:32:29.000 I think. Another thing, I mean, there are. 1:32:28.840 --> 1:32:33.479 Some like English language Instagram accounts who are like posting things, yeah, 1:32:33.560 --> 1:32:38.200 but I think the biggest thing is to be for 1:32:38.400 --> 1:32:38.960 the people. 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:41.040 And what do I mean by that? 1:32:41.479 --> 1:32:44.080 Everyone wants to claim that they are for the people, 1:32:44.120 --> 1:32:45.560 but very few people. 1:32:45.360 --> 1:32:47.479 Actually are for the people, right. 1:32:48.120 --> 1:32:52.479 So what happens is they might hear like, I don't know, 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:56.920 a Venezuela in person saying, oh thank you USA for 1:32:57.080 --> 1:33:00.920 taking out maluro do whatever you want want whatever. They 1:33:01.000 --> 1:33:04.880 might hear like the typical magrasolanos, you know, and you 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:08.240 might hear all of these perspectives that are really coming 1:33:08.280 --> 1:33:11.519 from not a place of them being fascist or whatever, 1:33:11.560 --> 1:33:14.280 but coming from a trauma. So I think that if 1:33:14.280 --> 1:33:17.000 you want to inform yourself. You need to develop the 1:33:17.680 --> 1:33:20.920 ability to think critically about what's going on and be 1:33:21.000 --> 1:33:24.400 able to understand who are these people and why do 1:33:24.439 --> 1:33:28.440 they have this perspective? Right, So they have this perspective 1:33:29.320 --> 1:33:32.080 not because they were slave owners back in Venezuela, not 1:33:32.200 --> 1:33:35.720 because they're white, some of them are not white. It's 1:33:35.760 --> 1:33:41.320 not because they are like pro fascism or they necessarily 1:33:41.360 --> 1:33:44.400 love the US, right, but it's coming from a place 1:33:44.439 --> 1:33:45.320 of trauma. 1:33:45.360 --> 1:33:47.160 And why do they have that trauma? 1:33:47.200 --> 1:33:50.080 Well, they have that trauma because all of the abuses 1:33:50.120 --> 1:33:53.360 that were committed, like to the Venezuelan people, were on 1:33:53.439 --> 1:33:58.240 behalf of this quote unquote socialism, right, So yeah, they 1:33:58.240 --> 1:34:01.360 were committed in the name of of the left whatever. 1:34:01.720 --> 1:34:04.080 So that's why all of a sudden they claim to 1:34:04.120 --> 1:34:06.599 be very right wing, although if you speak to them, 1:34:06.680 --> 1:34:08.080 you might ask them, well, what do you want to 1:34:08.080 --> 1:34:10.360 see in your country and you're like, well, this doesn't 1:34:10.360 --> 1:34:13.160 sound very pro capitalism to me. But I guess the 1:34:13.160 --> 1:34:18.040 ability to understand these people instead of calling them like 1:34:18.160 --> 1:34:22.960 CIA agents, fascists, like they're stupid, they're idiots, don't listen 1:34:23.040 --> 1:34:27.519 to them. The diasporas just full of like massad agents whatever, 1:34:27.560 --> 1:34:29.519 you want to call them, right, like I've seen every 1:34:29.520 --> 1:34:31.880 athol in the book, like any excuse in the book, like. 1:34:31.840 --> 1:34:33.080 To not listen to these people. 1:34:33.240 --> 1:34:35.920 Yeah, but I think this is to listen to these 1:34:35.960 --> 1:34:40.040 people and try to understand and again think critically. Okay, well, 1:34:40.240 --> 1:34:44.160 I understand that maybe what they are saying is not 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:48.840 necessarily great, because I also understand that the US has 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:50.840 done this, this and this, and that they are coming 1:34:50.880 --> 1:34:53.000 from a place of trauma that perhaps they do know 1:34:53.560 --> 1:34:56.599 what the US is history. But again, they're just desperate. 1:34:56.920 --> 1:34:59.240 But let's get to the bottom of this. What is 1:34:59.280 --> 1:35:03.639 their root con the crisis in Venezuela. Right, So why 1:35:03.640 --> 1:35:06.240 do they have all these like crazy ideas? 1:35:06.479 --> 1:35:07.920 Why are they so crazy? 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:12.559 So because of everything that they've endured in Venezuela. So 1:35:12.840 --> 1:35:15.880 don't try to focus on like the shallow part of 1:35:15.920 --> 1:35:17.680 it all, like try to go to the deeper end 1:35:18.160 --> 1:35:21.320 and that way you will truly understand what is going on. 1:35:22.040 --> 1:35:22.240 Right. 1:35:23.080 --> 1:35:25.840 Not to ignore these people or just like dismiss them 1:35:25.920 --> 1:35:29.559 as a B or C or like a CIA fascist whatever. 1:35:29.880 --> 1:35:30.880 They're not fascists. 1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:33.719 They're just people who are traumatized, and it's really important 1:35:33.720 --> 1:35:37.759 for you to understand their trauma in order to address 1:35:37.800 --> 1:35:40.840 the issues that actually concern them and to actually have 1:35:40.960 --> 1:35:44.400 communication with these people and include them in your advocacy, 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:46.960 and who knows, maybe you'll be able to convert some 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:50.439 to your side to right, which I think that's been 1:35:50.439 --> 1:35:53.080 one of the most critical mistakes that many people on 1:35:53.120 --> 1:35:56.240 the left have made, is that, you know, we have 1:35:56.760 --> 1:35:59.519 all these Venezuelans who again claim to be right wing. 1:35:59.560 --> 1:36:02.160 And to a second, why say they claim to be 1:36:02.840 --> 1:36:05.280 but they claim to be right wing, And again it's 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:09.120 not just because of the mad Madula and Chavist regime. 1:36:09.320 --> 1:36:11.680 It's not just because all of the abuses committed to 1:36:11.680 --> 1:36:13.600 them were in the name of socialism, but it is 1:36:13.640 --> 1:36:17.959 also because the international left has reacted so negatively towards 1:36:18.160 --> 1:36:22.840 our cause that you know, many Venezuelans decided to say, hey, 1:36:22.880 --> 1:36:25.760 you know what, I'm right wing or I'm moderate, or 1:36:25.840 --> 1:36:28.599 you know what, I love the US now because all 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:32.200 the people who are anti West are pro the regime 1:36:32.240 --> 1:36:35.280 that is killing my people, right right, So what's that 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:37.920 What that is doing is like actually pushing these people 1:36:38.000 --> 1:36:41.680 even further when you call you know, these like. 1:36:41.640 --> 1:36:43.200 Magaslos, because. 1:36:44.520 --> 1:36:47.599 When you call them like Ashist or whatever, or Cia, 1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:50.720 you're just pushing them even further, and at the end 1:36:50.760 --> 1:36:52.760 that sucks like for us because then we're going to 1:36:52.800 --> 1:36:54.800 be the ones We're going to be politically confused, and 1:36:54.920 --> 1:36:57.400 god knows that's going to lead us to some crazy places. 1:36:57.479 --> 1:36:57.759 Right. 1:36:58.400 --> 1:37:01.520 So I think the first thing is actually having empathy 1:37:01.640 --> 1:37:06.439 towards people and using your ability to think critically and 1:37:06.520 --> 1:37:11.360 hearing people out who maybe you were told not to 1:37:11.439 --> 1:37:15.479 listen to and thinking, Okay, well, I don't agree with 1:37:15.600 --> 1:37:18.559 what you're saying on the surface, but I understand what 1:37:18.640 --> 1:37:22.240 your roote concern is. Therefore, I think we should talk 1:37:22.280 --> 1:37:25.200 about this and I can understand that in order to 1:37:25.280 --> 1:37:28.400 inform myself what is truly happening to these people that 1:37:28.479 --> 1:37:31.920 are making them believe these crazy things like Trump has 1:37:32.200 --> 1:37:33.320 fave us, right. 1:37:33.479 --> 1:37:35.960 Yeah, I think that's like really important to remember that 1:37:36.040 --> 1:37:38.559 you might come across from Venezuela and who might be 1:37:38.640 --> 1:37:41.519 advocating for oh, someone from Iran or someone from one 1:37:41.520 --> 1:37:45.520 of these other places you might be like advocating for intervention. Yeah, 1:37:45.560 --> 1:37:48.120 and like it's ever really important not to be like, Okay, 1:37:48.160 --> 1:37:50.320 this person goes in the mag of box for me, 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:53.720 because like there are Venezuelan people who are going to 1:37:53.760 --> 1:37:56.200 go in that box, right, But like, we have a 1:37:56.200 --> 1:37:58.200 good deal of people who like they're obviously not going 1:37:58.240 --> 1:38:01.520 to be opposed to migration in they themselves some migrants exactly. 1:38:01.920 --> 1:38:04.920 That doesn't always apply. There's the famous video of the 1:38:04.920 --> 1:38:08.639 Turkish guy complaining about migrants as he enters the United States. 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:11.280 Like, oh, yeah, I mean, of course, I guess you're 1:38:11.280 --> 1:38:11.680 trying to. 1:38:11.600 --> 1:38:14.479 Say, yeah, yeah, Like there are people whose views on 1:38:14.560 --> 1:38:16.200 like the world and the way it should be might 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:19.599 not be that different from yours, and like we only 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:22.080 find out by engaging with each other in good faith 1:38:22.720 --> 1:38:25.840 and like as people, not as tropes. Yeah, which I 1:38:25.840 --> 1:38:27.519 think is in a huge part of the problem. I 1:38:27.520 --> 1:38:32.599 do think the language barrier is an issue. So many 1:38:32.880 --> 1:38:35.560 people on the left want to talk about places but 1:38:35.800 --> 1:38:38.400 not talk to the people and can't. Yeah, and then 1:38:38.760 --> 1:38:43.599 we only see a small subset of discourse translated into English. 1:38:43.680 --> 1:38:45.400 I mean that's kind of what I mean by like, 1:38:45.520 --> 1:38:47.760 you know, everyone wants to be for the people, but 1:38:48.000 --> 1:38:50.400 very few people actually are because being for the people 1:38:50.479 --> 1:38:53.040 takes a lot of effort, because you need to learn languages, 1:38:53.280 --> 1:38:55.320 you need to visit places, you need to talk to 1:38:55.400 --> 1:38:58.320 people who you might on the surface disagree with you 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:00.320 might have to think about what they tell you in 1:39:00.439 --> 1:39:03.960 order to come to a conclusion yourself about what's actually 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:06.240 going on and how you can actually support these people 1:39:06.520 --> 1:39:10.040 while not compromising your own beliefs and your own knowledge 1:39:10.040 --> 1:39:13.759 and experiences. Right, So that takes much work. So that's 1:39:13.960 --> 1:39:16.800 what I meant by that, Like very few, yeah, for 1:39:16.920 --> 1:39:19.559 the people in that sense where they engage and actually 1:39:19.600 --> 1:39:22.680 go and try to talk to us. And I think 1:39:22.680 --> 1:39:25.759 that's the best way of being informed of any issue, 1:39:25.840 --> 1:39:27.240 is just talking to the people. 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:30.559 But it takes a lot of work. It takes a 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:31.240 lot of work. 1:39:31.479 --> 1:39:35.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's what solidarity is like, it's 1:39:35.560 --> 1:39:37.840 putting in the work to take care of each other exactly. 1:39:38.080 --> 1:39:41.559 It's been a failure of the non campus left that 1:39:41.600 --> 1:39:44.320 we have not done more. We have not reached out 1:39:44.360 --> 1:39:47.280 to more people in Venezuela, that we've not used our platforms, 1:39:47.320 --> 1:39:50.639 so we've not shared their voices, that we haven't done 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:54.400 more to push back on this idea that like the 1:39:54.439 --> 1:39:58.840 only options to Venezuela are neoliberal neo imperialism, or maybe 1:39:58.840 --> 1:40:02.480 neoliberal so is what we do anymore, but American imperialism 1:40:02.880 --> 1:40:07.640 or like this anti imperialism of idiots? Is there anything 1:40:08.040 --> 1:40:10.759 you'd like to plug? Do you like people to find 1:40:10.800 --> 1:40:14.080 you on the internet or some other stuff you'd like 1:40:14.120 --> 1:40:16.800 to direct people to. Maybe they can call you a 1:40:16.920 --> 1:40:18.479 mossad or cia or whatever. 1:40:19.040 --> 1:40:22.160 Yeah, you can find me on my Instagram account. 1:40:22.360 --> 1:40:27.320 It's E dot M dot A r I n Okay, 1:40:27.439 --> 1:40:31.559 so just like my name deconstructing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 1:40:31.560 --> 1:40:32.759 can send it to you later. 1:40:33.280 --> 1:40:34.040 Yeah. Yeah. 1:40:34.200 --> 1:40:37.040 Trying to think of like what else to say, but 1:40:37.479 --> 1:40:40.120 I mean, yeah, like going back a little bit, I 1:40:40.200 --> 1:40:42.760 just wanted to clarify this because I brought up a 1:40:42.800 --> 1:40:47.360 few times. But what I was saying, you know, like 1:40:47.720 --> 1:40:51.240 looking at is Maga solanos and what I mean by 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:54.040 like their quote unquote right or not actually right wing, 1:40:54.280 --> 1:40:56.719 like if you speak to them. And there's a really 1:40:56.760 --> 1:41:00.000 good video that the Sky made but it's in Spanish 1:41:00.120 --> 1:41:04.280 talking about this. But what I mean is many people 1:41:05.000 --> 1:41:09.280 who are magasolanos. You ask them what do you want 1:41:09.600 --> 1:41:13.719 to see in Venezuela, And what they want is affordable housing, 1:41:13.960 --> 1:41:19.599 affordable healthcare, clean water, proper environmental policies. They don't want 1:41:19.760 --> 1:41:23.320 any more abuses committed to the indigenous communities, particular those 1:41:23.320 --> 1:41:26.880 in the Araco Minerooco. So you ask these people what 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:29.800 they want, and this is what they want, right, So 1:41:30.080 --> 1:41:32.360 when they just say that they're right wing, they say 1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:35.280 that they're right wing simply because they are traumatized from, 1:41:35.600 --> 1:41:39.559 you know, this apparently socialist regime which was anything but 1:41:40.120 --> 1:41:43.240 and people on the left sort of, you know, just 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:48.080 supporting that regime and isolating them and treating them like 1:41:48.200 --> 1:41:51.679 absolute crap. So they're traumatized by both of those things, 1:41:52.000 --> 1:41:54.320 and that's why they claim to be in this position. 1:41:54.640 --> 1:41:57.000 But if you actually talk to them, that is not 1:41:57.120 --> 1:42:00.559 the case. Keep that in mind, because it's funny to 1:42:00.640 --> 1:42:05.920 me when many people say, oh, you guys just believe propaganda. 1:42:06.080 --> 1:42:08.800 That's why you're pro Trump, and that's why your right wing, 1:42:09.080 --> 1:42:13.240 because you consumed the CIA propaganda. You guys are blinded 1:42:13.240 --> 1:42:15.840 by propaganda, when in reality. 1:42:15.320 --> 1:42:17.600 What that doing is that is taking away. 1:42:17.680 --> 1:42:20.920 The accountability that many on the left should maybe you know, 1:42:21.520 --> 1:42:27.280 maybe think about, because it hasn't just been CIA propaganda, like, 1:42:27.400 --> 1:42:31.599 it's also just leftists acting like assholes, Like that's something 1:42:31.680 --> 1:42:34.519 that has also pushed many Venezuelans away from the left. 1:42:35.560 --> 1:42:39.160 It's not just the CIA spreading propaganda it's also that 1:42:39.240 --> 1:42:43.320 the Left has acted horribly with Venezuelans, and that has 1:42:43.360 --> 1:42:46.080 also pushed people away. And I think if we're able 1:42:46.120 --> 1:42:48.639 to solve that issue, If I think if the Left 1:42:48.800 --> 1:42:51.840 is able to see Venezuelans as human beings and to 1:42:51.880 --> 1:42:55.200 have a different approach, such as you know, with you 1:42:55.240 --> 1:42:58.040 know what we've talked about earlier, I think we're going 1:42:58.080 --> 1:43:00.920 to be able to have a better conversation and have 1:43:00.960 --> 1:43:05.240 a better relationship between these two communities and actually get 1:43:05.240 --> 1:43:06.200 somewhere productive. 1:43:06.520 --> 1:43:08.559 But I just wanted to bring that up because I am. 1:43:08.520 --> 1:43:12.520 So tired of seeing people saying it's all CIA propaganda 1:43:12.800 --> 1:43:16.479 and not really thinking, well, actually, we have also done 1:43:16.520 --> 1:43:20.200 some pretty bad things and that's why these people kind 1:43:20.240 --> 1:43:24.040 of have taken a dislike to us. So yeah, I 1:43:24.200 --> 1:43:27.920 think I think that's pretty much it. Like, in conclusion, 1:43:28.040 --> 1:43:32.320 just here hear us out. We're human, and we're not 1:43:32.439 --> 1:43:37.800 the perfect victims. We're not a monolith. We were human. Yes, 1:43:37.960 --> 1:43:41.679 so we should be spoken to as humans and thought 1:43:41.720 --> 1:43:46.439 about as humans, not as some chess piece in this 1:43:46.560 --> 1:43:52.200 political game. Just include us into the conversation, I think 1:43:52.280 --> 1:43:55.360 is the most important thing anyone listening to this should 1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:56.559 take away. 1:43:57.040 --> 1:43:58.960 Yeah, I think it's a really good place. Thank you 1:43:59.000 --> 1:44:01.439 so much for sharing some of that time with us. 1:44:01.800 --> 1:44:04.639 No, thank you so much for giving me the space 1:44:04.680 --> 1:44:09.120 to talk. I mean, it's very necessary, as you might imagine, 1:44:09.439 --> 1:44:13.120 for our voices to be heard and be put out there. 1:44:13.680 --> 1:44:17.599 Because I'm lucky enough to be multi lingual, I try 1:44:17.640 --> 1:44:20.720 to do my best and speak in other languages so 1:44:20.760 --> 1:44:24.400 other people understand what's going on in our minds and 1:44:24.439 --> 1:44:28.639 in our communities. So I am very grateful that you're 1:44:28.680 --> 1:44:31.920 able to have me here and to actually listen. It's 1:44:31.920 --> 1:44:36.240 not something many people do, so I really do valuate great. 1:44:36.720 --> 1:44:38.120 Thank you, great. 1:44:54.160 --> 1:44:56.280 Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. 1:44:56.640 --> 1:44:59.120 I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger, and I'm joined today 1:44:59.120 --> 1:45:01.280 by a very special Michael Edison Hayden. 1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:03.639 Hi, how's it going, Thanks for being here. 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:06.360 You may know Mike from his work as an investigative 1:45:06.400 --> 1:45:09.320 journalist and an expert on far right extremism. He currently 1:45:09.320 --> 1:45:12.320 co hosts Posting Through It, a weekly news podcast with 1:45:12.360 --> 1:45:14.920 fellow veteran of the far right beat, Jared Holt. But 1:45:14.960 --> 1:45:18.120 today we're talking about his new book, Strange People on 1:45:18.160 --> 1:45:21.439 the Hill, How Extremism tore apart a small American town. 1:45:22.280 --> 1:45:25.040 It comes out April seventh, twenty twenty six, but you 1:45:25.080 --> 1:45:26.880 can go ahead and pre order it now anywhere you 1:45:26.920 --> 1:45:28.960 buy books, and make sure you ask for it at 1:45:28.960 --> 1:45:31.840 your local library and your local independent bookstore. 1:45:32.320 --> 1:45:34.519 Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I'm excited to 1:45:34.560 --> 1:45:35.160 talk about this. 1:45:35.439 --> 1:45:37.599 Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. 1:45:37.640 --> 1:45:39.640 I was worried that I wasn't gonna have time to 1:45:39.840 --> 1:45:41.760 read the whole book. I mean, you talk about this 1:45:41.800 --> 1:45:43.799 a lot in the book, right, the stresses of covering 1:45:43.840 --> 1:45:46.040 this beat. But I sat down to read it and 1:45:46.080 --> 1:45:48.320 I read it in one sitting. It is very compelling. Wow, 1:45:49.200 --> 1:45:52.160 But it's not the book I thought it was, you know. 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:54.880 So when your publicists sent this to me, I thought, oh, phenomenal. 1:45:55.400 --> 1:45:57.799 This is a book about Peter Brimlow and the racism 1:45:57.840 --> 1:45:59.519 Castle in West Virginia. I would love to read a 1:45:59.560 --> 1:46:01.559 book about Peter Brimlow and the races in Castle. 1:46:01.880 --> 1:46:03.960 And it's not really is it? 1:46:04.000 --> 1:46:08.320 Like the Brimlows are the strange people on the hill 1:46:08.400 --> 1:46:10.320 and they sort of stay on the hill. 1:46:10.439 --> 1:46:10.559 Right. 1:46:10.600 --> 1:46:12.840 You have a couple of encounters with them in the book, 1:46:12.880 --> 1:46:15.040 But for the most part, it's a book about the town. 1:46:16.000 --> 1:46:18.439 Yeah, yeah, it's about the town. And I'm glad that 1:46:18.560 --> 1:46:21.280 you mentioned that. I really didn't want to write a 1:46:21.320 --> 1:46:28.639 book that was about these villains that have been, you know, 1:46:28.680 --> 1:46:31.680 populating our culture for the last ten plus years that 1:46:31.840 --> 1:46:35.800 just seem to get unlimited traction on social media. There's 1:46:35.800 --> 1:46:39.360 nothing wrong with talking about them, and there's nothing certainly 1:46:39.360 --> 1:46:41.120 reporting on them, because I did my share of that, 1:46:41.880 --> 1:46:43.360 you know, day in and day out when I was 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:46.480 with SBLC, for instance. I think that all that is important, 1:46:46.520 --> 1:46:48.840 and there's different ways to do it and do it effectively. 1:46:48.960 --> 1:46:52.320 But I think for a book, I wanted to focus 1:46:52.439 --> 1:46:57.320 more on what these people and this culture that is 1:46:57.640 --> 1:47:00.599 surrounding them is doing to every people. 1:47:01.520 --> 1:47:01.720 Yeah. 1:47:01.720 --> 1:47:04.240 I was just I was so startled by what it 1:47:04.320 --> 1:47:07.240 wasn't and then so engrossed by what it was. But 1:47:07.320 --> 1:47:09.599 just quickly for the listeners, tell us what the book 1:47:09.640 --> 1:47:12.120 is not about. Tell us who Peter Brimlow is and 1:47:12.240 --> 1:47:14.120 v dare and how they ended up with a castle. 1:47:14.600 --> 1:47:18.400 Yeah, well it's not totally without him. I mean we 1:47:18.439 --> 1:47:20.640 do get a bit of information about it. Yeah, we 1:47:20.640 --> 1:47:24.759 meet him. Peter kind of came up as a financial reporter. 1:47:25.560 --> 1:47:28.840 That's the short way of understanding, you know, how he 1:47:28.920 --> 1:47:35.280 became America's most influential white nationalist. That's what SPOC labeled him, 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:39.519 which has covered obviously in the book. And he became 1:47:39.560 --> 1:47:44.519 obsessed with immigration, and in particular heart Seller, which brought 1:47:44.560 --> 1:47:49.479 in tons of people from the developing world. My mother 1:47:49.840 --> 1:47:53.400 came to the country in sixty eight, for example, that 1:47:53.560 --> 1:47:56.760 was like a you know, three years after Heartseller, and 1:47:57.560 --> 1:48:01.240 I wouldn't have been born if not married a white guy, 1:48:01.360 --> 1:48:04.559 and etcetera, etcetera. She came from Egypt. So he became 1:48:04.600 --> 1:48:07.800 obsessed with this and kind of in the way that 1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:10.080 I know, you know a lot about these the way 1:48:10.160 --> 1:48:13.599 some of these minds work, Molly, but in the way 1:48:13.600 --> 1:48:16.200 that some people get obsessed with environmentalism, and then they 1:48:16.400 --> 1:48:19.960 kind of expand that concern to sort of say, well, 1:48:19.960 --> 1:48:22.240 there's too many people, right, there's too many people. There's 1:48:22.280 --> 1:48:24.880 too many people. Well there's too many brown people. That's 1:48:24.920 --> 1:48:27.280 what's destroying the environment. And then they become you know, 1:48:27.280 --> 1:48:30.080 sort of white nationalists minded or anti grand immigrant minded. 1:48:30.560 --> 1:48:32.479 In Briml's case, I really think it was like a 1:48:32.479 --> 1:48:35.120 financial thing, just like this is putting all these different 1:48:35.160 --> 1:48:38.160 strains and whatever, and then it became the financial became 1:48:38.240 --> 1:48:41.960 less of a concern, and the actual anti immigrant thing 1:48:42.000 --> 1:48:44.920 became bigger and bigger for him. In nineteen ninety five, 1:48:46.080 --> 1:48:49.479 he publishes Alienation, which is a book that was actually 1:48:49.560 --> 1:48:53.800 praised by people like David Frum, you know, the very 1:48:53.840 --> 1:48:56.479 same guy who's high hatting about Trump every day. It 1:48:56.560 --> 1:48:59.120 was considered socially acceptable, and then over time I think 1:48:59.160 --> 1:49:02.840 people realize that the book had a very racist undercurrent, 1:49:03.320 --> 1:49:06.479 and it became beloved by Nazis, white nationalists, etc. 1:49:07.760 --> 1:49:09.639 I think if people like David Frum had been honest 1:49:09.640 --> 1:49:11.799 with themselves, it was there all along. 1:49:11.840 --> 1:49:13.440 It was not a subtle undercurrent. 1:49:13.640 --> 1:49:16.880 Fun A side about David From which is that I 1:49:16.920 --> 1:49:20.919 did put it in the investigation into Stephen Miller's private emails. 1:49:21.520 --> 1:49:25.360 Miller shared posts by From on more than one occasion 1:49:25.400 --> 1:49:27.960 about like sort of anti Islam posts, which I think 1:49:28.040 --> 1:49:28.559 is interesting. 1:49:28.960 --> 1:49:31.160 And I think what these people disagree most about is 1:49:31.200 --> 1:49:33.280 how loud you're supposed to say the quiet part. 1:49:33.600 --> 1:49:37.040 Yeah, No, I really do think that that's true. So, 1:49:37.280 --> 1:49:41.040 you know, when Peter became more of a contentious figure, 1:49:41.600 --> 1:49:45.479 he founded Videir, which is a nonprofit that lasted for 1:49:45.520 --> 1:49:47.120 about quarter century. 1:49:47.880 --> 1:49:50.040 Recently died recently double that's. 1:49:49.920 --> 1:49:52.280 Covered in the book. It dies over the course of 1:49:52.280 --> 1:49:57.000 the narrative, and it was hugely influential, usually influential and 1:49:57.160 --> 1:50:02.160 changing the GOP. And at the time when W. Bush 1:50:02.439 --> 1:50:06.160 was president, Brimlow was railing against the GOP to change, 1:50:06.160 --> 1:50:10.080 to move in this nativist direction, and eventually they listen 1:50:10.160 --> 1:50:10.639 to him. 1:50:11.040 --> 1:50:13.880 And so the book sort of starts with, you know, 1:50:14.400 --> 1:50:17.839 twenty nineteen, right, and Peter and his wife, Lydia Brimlow 1:50:17.920 --> 1:50:21.360 have purchased this gigantic castle in the small town of 1:50:21.360 --> 1:50:22.759 Berkeley Springs, West Virginia. 1:50:22.880 --> 1:50:23.040 Right. 1:50:23.640 --> 1:50:25.920 I guess it's not shake It's a medium sized castle. 1:50:26.120 --> 1:50:29.160 I don't know what the scale for castles is. And 1:50:29.200 --> 1:50:31.840 so you become interested in their purchase of this castle, 1:50:31.840 --> 1:50:33.519 and you go to this town and you meet the 1:50:33.560 --> 1:50:36.920 people of Berkeley Springs, the people who are indifferent to 1:50:36.960 --> 1:50:39.519 their presence, the people who are organizing against their presence. 1:50:40.120 --> 1:50:43.479 And it's this really sort of engrossing story of just 1:50:44.000 --> 1:50:47.360 small town drama, this interpersonal drama of these like small 1:50:47.400 --> 1:50:48.360 business owners. 1:50:49.320 --> 1:50:50.160 And the castle is. 1:50:50.120 --> 1:50:53.200 Always there in the background, right, the strange people are 1:50:53.280 --> 1:50:56.000 up on the hill. But it's a story about this 1:50:56.200 --> 1:50:57.480 small town struggle. 1:50:58.080 --> 1:51:00.960 Yeah, I think we should just talk about the castle 1:51:01.000 --> 1:51:04.040 real quick, because it's beautiful, and I think that's a 1:51:04.120 --> 1:51:06.599 key thing. I hope when you read it you were like, oh, 1:51:06.640 --> 1:51:08.840 I want to go to Berkeley Springs now, which is 1:51:08.880 --> 1:51:11.000 I've had more than one person who read the book. 1:51:10.760 --> 1:51:12.720 Tell me that I'm going to wait till they leave. 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:17.000 I've also heard that too, But you know, I know 1:51:17.040 --> 1:51:20.880 the people who are there who despise the Brimlows and 1:51:20.880 --> 1:51:24.280 their ideology, and I wanted to make sure that they 1:51:24.560 --> 1:51:26.599 didn't feel let down by the book, that they felt 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:28.760 like at least honored to a degree because I really 1:51:28.840 --> 1:51:30.760 want them to be able to recover their business. Their 1:51:30.800 --> 1:51:33.720 business have suffered since Brimlows took over. But just a 1:51:33.800 --> 1:51:37.040 quick thing on this castle. It is absolutely beautiful. It 1:51:37.120 --> 1:51:39.920 should be like a national park or something. It has 1:51:39.960 --> 1:51:43.439 that feel. It was built in eighteen eighty by a 1:51:43.479 --> 1:51:47.320 guy named Samuel Taylor Suit who made it for a 1:51:47.640 --> 1:51:52.200 very very young young girl. I think she's like seventeen 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:52.960 or something like that. 1:51:53.160 --> 1:51:55.799 It's fitting that Brimlow bought it for his much younger wife. 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:58.800 Yes, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot of like spiritual 1:51:59.080 --> 1:52:01.679 kind of woo woo stuff in Berkeley Springs, and there's 1:52:01.680 --> 1:52:04.200 a lot of you know, superstition, and a lot of 1:52:04.200 --> 1:52:06.519 people really think that they are carrying on like some 1:52:06.520 --> 1:52:10.080 sort of ghost like thing would carry over from this relationship. 1:52:10.600 --> 1:52:13.519 But he made the castle for her, and he died 1:52:14.200 --> 1:52:17.360 and she took over and went bankrupt, and there was 1:52:17.400 --> 1:52:20.200 also allegedly a murder or something like that took place there. 1:52:20.360 --> 1:52:23.000 And then there's like this kind of turnover from people 1:52:23.600 --> 1:52:26.960 one generation of the next trying to keep the castle going. 1:52:27.040 --> 1:52:29.720 It's always more expensive than it's worth. It's beautiful, it 1:52:29.760 --> 1:52:33.599 overlooks the entire town. The town is tiny, gorgeous, looks 1:52:33.600 --> 1:52:35.519 like a great place to go on vacation. And if 1:52:35.520 --> 1:52:39.040 you imagine, like for Berkeley Springs, the Empire State Building, 1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:43.200 Statue of Liberty Times Square rolled into one, that's what 1:52:43.240 --> 1:52:45.400 the castle is. It's so tiny, and this is the 1:52:45.400 --> 1:52:48.000 main landmark. This is the thing that everybody goes to 1:52:48.080 --> 1:52:49.839 and they go hiking around there and all this stuff. 1:52:49.880 --> 1:52:53.280 So this is a tourist town that attracts a lot 1:52:53.320 --> 1:52:57.560 of LGBQ people from places like Washington, d C. Baltimore, 1:52:57.760 --> 1:53:01.000 a lot of liberals and all of a sudden you 1:53:01.080 --> 1:53:05.400 have this again SPOC labeled white nationalist, anti immigrant, nativist, 1:53:05.479 --> 1:53:09.240 whatever you want to call them. Couple buys this castle, right, 1:53:09.360 --> 1:53:11.400 they decide to buy it. And the way they found 1:53:11.439 --> 1:53:15.439 it is because Lydia Brimlow, who is thirty seven years 1:53:15.479 --> 1:53:19.559 younger than Peter herself and started with him and when 1:53:19.560 --> 1:53:22.600 she was twenty or something like that and he was 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:23.839 nearly sixty. 1:53:24.439 --> 1:53:27.479 Right, she was an intern at the Heritage Foundation when 1:53:27.479 --> 1:53:27.920 they met. 1:53:28.120 --> 1:53:33.599 Intriguing, Yeah, Heritage and it's interesting, weird in any case, 1:53:34.160 --> 1:53:37.479 she finds it on Zillow. And you remember this period 1:53:37.560 --> 1:53:42.040 very well, I know, But in twenty eighteen or so, 1:53:42.560 --> 1:53:47.320 it became very very difficult for these folks to stage events, right. 1:53:47.680 --> 1:53:51.559 For you know, for unknown reasons, not because they kept 1:53:51.640 --> 1:53:52.120 killing people. 1:53:52.560 --> 1:53:55.400 I don't want to like derail this podcast by bringing 1:53:55.479 --> 1:53:59.640 up Jason Kessler, but Jason Kessler, who we both know 1:53:59.720 --> 1:54:02.559 very well well, who is who secured the permit for 1:54:02.600 --> 1:54:05.519 the Unite the Right event, who has been at different 1:54:05.520 --> 1:54:07.479 times obsessed with both of us, I think were like 1:54:07.760 --> 1:54:11.320 in his top in his top ap all list, Jason 1:54:11.640 --> 1:54:14.760 you know, was readily associated with VIDIA because of his 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:16.920 contributions to the site and people knew that, and that 1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:18.519 may put even more pressure because the're like, well, this 1:54:18.600 --> 1:54:22.160 Charlottesville guy, right, they unite the right guy is Assai. 1:54:22.479 --> 1:54:25.320 So VIDIA couldn't stage any events. They were very worried 1:54:25.320 --> 1:54:29.400 about counter demonstrators. I think that the counter demonstrators from 1:54:29.479 --> 1:54:32.520 that first Maga era really put the fear of God 1:54:32.520 --> 1:54:34.320 into some of these people. They didn't they were they 1:54:34.320 --> 1:54:38.440 were scared shitless of anti racist, anti fascists, and all 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:40.320 of a sudden, you got a castle on Zilo a 1:54:40.360 --> 1:54:44.600 million point four and it's got stone walls all over it, 1:54:45.040 --> 1:54:48.120 and hey, we can hold our conferences here. And so 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:50.520 that's how they got it. They ended up getting it 1:54:50.560 --> 1:54:54.640 for that reason And what happens to the town afterwards is, 1:54:55.560 --> 1:54:58.520 I think is a minor tragedy in our culture that 1:54:58.520 --> 1:54:59.920 hasn't been paid attention to enough. 1:55:00.160 --> 1:55:02.480 Yeah, it is this sort of microcosm of what happened 1:55:02.520 --> 1:55:05.160 to America, right, Like, we don't all have a racism 1:55:05.240 --> 1:55:07.600 castle in our town, but sort of the way this 1:55:07.800 --> 1:55:12.400 castle bears down on this little town kind of mirrors 1:55:12.400 --> 1:55:16.200 the way the influx of these extreme right wing ideas 1:55:16.240 --> 1:55:19.480 into the GOP, into the administration that governs all of 1:55:19.520 --> 1:55:22.360 us kind of is bearing down on us. 1:55:22.680 --> 1:55:24.960 Yeah, it's very smart. I think that's true. I think 1:55:24.960 --> 1:55:28.600 that is one of the reasons that the story spoke 1:55:28.680 --> 1:55:30.160 to me so much that I wanted to pursue it 1:55:30.200 --> 1:55:32.879 for so long. Is it really felt like what everybody 1:55:32.920 --> 1:55:36.080 was going through in the town and readers will learn this. 1:55:36.360 --> 1:55:40.640 Imagine business owners who are catering to many liberals there 1:55:40.760 --> 1:55:45.000 and stuck in Morgan County, which is seventy five percent 1:55:45.080 --> 1:55:50.120 Trump and ninety percent white, and they're panicking because they 1:55:50.160 --> 1:55:52.080 need to keep people going in. The press goes a 1:55:52.080 --> 1:55:54.800 long way in Berkeley Springs, so it's a little place. 1:55:55.240 --> 1:55:57.480 They don't know how to push back. Someone buys private property. 1:55:57.480 --> 1:55:59.800 What can you do? But they start to organize and 1:55:59.840 --> 1:56:02.960 try to figure out a way to urge Brimlow to 1:56:03.040 --> 1:56:05.240 leave or to make it so difficult for him that 1:56:05.280 --> 1:56:09.800 he leaves. And yes, it is absolutely a symbolism for 1:56:09.840 --> 1:56:12.760 what everybody's going through. And there are people all over 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:17.800 the country in places red states where you might find 1:56:17.880 --> 1:56:22.560 people who you wouldn't expect kind of protesting against TESLA 1:56:22.760 --> 1:56:25.000 or something like that. And it could be kind of corny, 1:56:25.080 --> 1:56:27.839 these type of people who like corny online and easily ignored. 1:56:28.320 --> 1:56:31.080 They're all over the country feeling that exact dread that 1:56:31.160 --> 1:56:34.120 you're talking about, where something very like above them is 1:56:34.160 --> 1:56:38.200 bearing down and pushing values that don't align with theirs. 1:56:38.960 --> 1:56:41.920 Right, it's such a specific story about Berkeley Springs, but 1:56:41.960 --> 1:56:44.600 at the same time, this could be almost any talent. 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:44.880 You know. 1:56:45.560 --> 1:56:47.920 I'm sure you followed the story of what happened in Enid, 1:56:47.920 --> 1:56:50.000 Oklahoma when the identity of europe a guy got on 1:56:50.000 --> 1:56:53.600 their city council and it was this very local, small 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:58.480 town struggle with these very specific local personalities butting heads. 1:56:58.480 --> 1:57:00.920 But the story's playing out in small towns all over 1:57:00.960 --> 1:57:04.480 America because everyone has, you know, if not a racism castle, 1:57:04.520 --> 1:57:07.800 everyone has a local racist who's making life hard for everyone. 1:57:08.040 --> 1:57:10.720 Yeah, I mean they're sending right now, to use claviculars 1:57:10.760 --> 1:57:14.480 phrase the Yeah, I mean think about North Idaho, for example. 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:17.200 I don't get a story for them, for about from 1:57:17.240 --> 1:57:21.200 other Jones, and you know they they have a long 1:57:21.280 --> 1:57:27.600 history with white supremacy, and it's certainly dead red far 1:57:27.720 --> 1:57:32.040 right part of the country. But you have like anti 1:57:32.080 --> 1:57:37.560 Semites like Dave Riley, it's right, Rebecca Hargraves and those 1:57:37.800 --> 1:57:42.840 people encroaching on their everyday politics. Right, they're trying to 1:57:43.000 --> 1:57:46.360 change the politics. They're trying to integrate themselves, you know, 1:57:46.440 --> 1:57:49.800 coming from outside basically to take over, right. 1:57:49.800 --> 1:57:51.600 I mean it's the same thing, is what happened in 1:57:51.600 --> 1:57:55.000 West Virginia, is that these white supremacists are moving to 1:57:55.200 --> 1:57:57.880 these places because they have a perception about what it 1:57:57.920 --> 1:57:59.600 will be like when they get there, that oh, everyone 1:57:59.640 --> 1:58:02.320 who's will agree with me because they're mostly white. 1:58:02.440 --> 1:58:04.000 That's why Dave Riley moved Idaho. 1:58:04.440 --> 1:58:09.000 Yeah, when Peter Brimlow first moved to the Castle, he 1:58:09.640 --> 1:58:11.480 would repeatedly I think he would do it when people 1:58:11.600 --> 1:58:14.240 reach out for comment and be like, you know, Morgan 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:17.600 County is seventy five percent voted for Trump. It's ninety 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:21.080 percent white. It's you who have the problem, not us. 1:58:21.320 --> 1:58:23.920 And if you're looking for a more optimistic thing here, 1:58:24.240 --> 1:58:26.680 I've gotten good reviews for the reviews that I've gotten, 1:58:26.720 --> 1:58:30.800 but they keep using like disturbing, like this is so scary. 1:58:31.080 --> 1:58:33.160 Like I think for us it's not as much because 1:58:33.200 --> 1:58:36.120 we've been living in it for in a more intimate way. Right. 1:58:36.160 --> 1:58:40.839 I found it encouraging, Yes, because because you met these people. 1:58:40.680 --> 1:58:43.640 Who were doing their best in this, like bizarre, fucked 1:58:43.720 --> 1:58:46.120 up situation, like they didn't ask for a weird old 1:58:46.160 --> 1:58:47.440 British Nazi to buy. 1:58:47.280 --> 1:58:48.600 The castle exactly. 1:58:48.720 --> 1:58:50.720 They're doing their best, and I think that's beautiful. 1:58:50.840 --> 1:58:53.480 I think I think if you try to tune out 1:58:53.680 --> 1:58:56.600 the reality that we're all going through right now and 1:58:56.760 --> 1:59:00.560 just focus on, you know, your own private world old 1:59:01.000 --> 1:59:04.200 it can be scary because you're letting in Peter Brimlow 1:59:04.240 --> 1:59:05.880 and your chair head while you read the book and 1:59:05.920 --> 1:59:08.800 you're you're you're seeing neighbors kind of turning on one another, 1:59:09.680 --> 1:59:12.400 and you're seeing me go through a mental health crisis 1:59:12.440 --> 1:59:14.400 to the book. I mean, there's these are things that 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:18.320 for for a normy that maybe a little bit you know, 1:59:18.360 --> 1:59:20.440 you may like the book, but you may be final 1:59:20.440 --> 1:59:22.400 little disturbing. But for people like us who have kind 1:59:22.400 --> 1:59:25.760 of really been through stuff in this and seeing it 1:59:25.880 --> 1:59:29.120 up close on a regular basis, Look, what I like 1:59:29.120 --> 1:59:31.280 about the book is it's it's rare to like say, 1:59:31.440 --> 1:59:33.520 I'm going to praise some white people here, but like 1:59:34.280 --> 1:59:37.480 it's white people saying that they don't want to be 1:59:37.600 --> 1:59:42.280 represented by these values, right, And I think that for me, 1:59:42.360 --> 1:59:45.280 as somebody who comes on outsider, I like, look, so 1:59:45.400 --> 1:59:48.200 normal in New York. I'm just I'm just swarthy, but 1:59:48.240 --> 1:59:51.680 they are there there. I look like Osama bin Laden 1:59:51.680 --> 1:59:52.160 and uh. 1:59:53.880 --> 1:59:56.400 Environment, I don't think you pass as white as you 1:59:56.440 --> 1:59:57.040 do in New York. 1:59:57.440 --> 1:59:59.720 It's very different. Yeah, And I say, like, you know, 2:00:00.120 --> 2:00:02.840 you see them, I mean they they have a choice 2:00:02.880 --> 2:00:05.680 to just kind of say like, actually, yeah, we're you know, 2:00:06.520 --> 2:00:09.960 Peter Brimlow is standing up for my rights. He's standing 2:00:10.000 --> 2:00:12.720 up for me. He's speaking for me. But a lot 2:00:12.720 --> 2:00:14.240 of people are not saying a. 2:00:14.200 --> 2:00:16.839 Guy who thinks a twenty eight hundred dollars political donation 2:00:17.040 --> 2:00:20.400 is a small amount, that's not the average West Virginian's 2:00:20.400 --> 2:00:21.400 idea of a small amount. 2:00:21.520 --> 2:00:24.120 Yes, that is a good thing to pull out. Yes, 2:00:24.720 --> 2:00:28.240 you know. The other thing is the people who ultimately 2:00:28.240 --> 2:00:32.880 in the book tend to defend Brimlow or align with him, 2:00:32.880 --> 2:00:39.880 because basically the town is becomes completely divided, maybe irrevocably, 2:00:39.920 --> 2:00:42.400 so hopefully they'll come together one day. And it's still 2:00:42.480 --> 2:00:45.160 I think the tensions are still quite bad. Yeah, it's 2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:47.840 still happening. Even though Fidier dies at the end, the 2:00:47.840 --> 2:00:50.320 Brimo still live there. The people who do it are 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:54.040 not like, yes, we believe full throated in the Great 2:00:54.080 --> 2:00:58.840 Replacement conspiracy theory. We think that the Great Replacement that like, 2:00:59.120 --> 2:01:02.640 you know that thinking about more extreme things that Brimlow 2:01:02.640 --> 2:01:03.080 has said. 2:01:03.520 --> 2:01:06.960 No, they're just people who see a nice white man 2:01:07.000 --> 2:01:09.360 and his nice white wife and they were nice to me. 2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:11.760 And I don't understand why you're making life so hard. 2:01:12.080 --> 2:01:18.040 Yeah, I mean, Vidier has published apology about mass shooters' intentions. 2:01:17.680 --> 2:01:21.080 Basically right, But so many of these these brimloa defenders 2:01:21.080 --> 2:01:23.520 are just they're not saying what he said is okay, 2:01:23.600 --> 2:01:25.720 or I believe what he said. They're saying he was 2:01:25.800 --> 2:01:27.520 nice to me. Why are you making such a big 2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:28.120 deal out of this? 2:01:28.440 --> 2:01:30.880 Yeah, I will clarify that. But they haven't said, yes, 2:01:31.000 --> 2:01:34.160 mass shootings are good. They have condemned that, but they've 2:01:34.160 --> 2:01:36.840 also said that like this writing makes sense, right, and 2:01:36.880 --> 2:01:41.680 they're like when during the Tops Supermarket shooting in Buffalo 2:01:41.760 --> 2:01:43.800 in twenty twenty two, that's something I highlight in the book, 2:01:44.040 --> 2:01:48.280 Vder publishes something that's like actually, like, look look how 2:01:48.320 --> 2:01:51.920 the Great Replacement has changed Buffalo. That was their response 2:01:52.480 --> 2:01:55.800 to ten black people getting shot. 2:01:56.280 --> 2:01:56.440 Right. 2:01:56.480 --> 2:01:58.480 So Peter Bridle is very litigious, so we do have 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:01.200 to be very specific here in say, Peter Bremlow did 2:02:01.200 --> 2:02:03.320 not say it is good that Peyton Dendron shot up 2:02:03.320 --> 2:02:07.040 that supermarket. What he did say is if the Great 2:02:07.040 --> 2:02:08.440 Replacement weren't happening. 2:02:08.560 --> 2:02:12.320 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's look, and I think that 2:02:12.640 --> 2:02:14.760 going back to the people in the town, I don't 2:02:14.800 --> 2:02:17.840 think that they at every point be like that is good, 2:02:18.160 --> 2:02:20.960 that what he's saying here is good, the Great Replacements, 2:02:21.040 --> 2:02:25.600 I'm fully on board with it. What they buy into 2:02:26.040 --> 2:02:31.600 is this profound friend enemy distinction that now hovers over 2:02:31.680 --> 2:02:36.000 our entire country, right where it's just sort of people 2:02:36.000 --> 2:02:40.240 who are friends of Maga and Trump are on one side, 2:02:40.760 --> 2:02:42.560 and then anybody who's at is my enemy. 2:02:43.880 --> 2:02:46.960 And these more extreme talking points are sort of creeping 2:02:47.040 --> 2:02:49.320 into that space and they're not stopping it. 2:02:49.640 --> 2:02:49.840 You know. 2:02:50.000 --> 2:02:52.280 Of course it's two sided. Of course, there's like that 2:02:52.280 --> 2:02:56.120 that comes from the liberal left or wherever you want 2:02:56.160 --> 2:02:58.320 to whatever you want to call it. But I think 2:02:58.880 --> 2:03:01.080 in the case of the Bremlas, it's not the specifics. 2:03:01.120 --> 2:03:04.040 I remember asking one guy in the book whose name 2:03:04.080 --> 2:03:07.240 is Charlie Currier, and he owns a you know, a 2:03:07.280 --> 2:03:12.120 sort of a craft's shop at the corner of Berkeley 2:03:12.120 --> 2:03:14.600 Springs Park, and it's right next to another main character 2:03:14.640 --> 2:03:17.160 of the book, Trey Johansson, who is you know, kind 2:03:17.200 --> 2:03:21.839 of almost the most important person. And I asked Charlie. 2:03:21.960 --> 2:03:25.600 I was like, you know, so you met the Brimlows, 2:03:25.840 --> 2:03:28.000 you hung out with them. What was that like for 2:03:28.080 --> 2:03:29.760 Christmas and stuff like that? And I was like, well, 2:03:29.800 --> 2:03:32.280 how do you feel about the great replacement stuff? How 2:03:32.280 --> 2:03:34.600 do you feel about like the stuff he writes? And 2:03:34.600 --> 2:03:36.720 what he said was he's a writer. He's a writer 2:03:37.120 --> 2:03:39.560 like you. He's a journalist just like you. He's the 2:03:39.600 --> 2:03:43.320 same as you. There's no difference. And he was very defensive. 2:03:43.520 --> 2:03:46.640 Yis you know, I think that framing is very useful 2:03:46.680 --> 2:03:49.840 for understanding why we can't seem to snap out of 2:03:49.880 --> 2:03:53.879 this current condition that we're in. When you're inside that bubble, 2:03:54.680 --> 2:03:56.600 that's the logic that works. It's like, this is the 2:03:56.640 --> 2:03:59.360 guy on our side. You know, we're defending the guy 2:03:59.400 --> 2:04:02.560 on our side. Right, that's a psychosis that kind of 2:04:02.600 --> 2:04:04.919 overshadows the entire narrative. 2:04:15.840 --> 2:04:19.280 Right, So this story in this town plays out against 2:04:19.320 --> 2:04:22.640 the backdrop of the wider world. Right, So you know, 2:04:22.680 --> 2:04:26.320 your first visit to Berkeley Springs was right as COVID 2:04:26.360 --> 2:04:28.040 is starting, right, it's the last time you left your 2:04:28.040 --> 2:04:29.560 New York apartment before lockdown. 2:04:29.680 --> 2:04:30.960 You're in Berkeley Springs. 2:04:30.960 --> 2:04:33.960 And as the story progresses, we see the twenty twenty uprising, 2:04:34.000 --> 2:04:36.480 and there's like a little BLM rally in this tiny town. 2:04:36.560 --> 2:04:39.360 And then there's j six, and there's October seventh. There's 2:04:39.400 --> 2:04:42.800 the twenty twenty four presidential campaign, and these big events 2:04:42.800 --> 2:04:45.400 in the world, and then there's these smaller events in 2:04:45.440 --> 2:04:49.160 the town, but interwoven with this sort of personal memoir, 2:04:49.280 --> 2:04:51.360 right that the world is in turmoil and so is 2:04:51.400 --> 2:04:54.839 your life. Yeah, and all these threads sort of weaved together. 2:04:55.880 --> 2:04:59.080 Yeah, that's true regarding the events in the world and 2:04:59.120 --> 2:05:01.280 in the town. I'm glad you brought that up. One 2:05:01.280 --> 2:05:02.560 thing I wanted to do with the book that I 2:05:02.600 --> 2:05:06.560 don't see done enough is just to understand that, like 2:05:06.760 --> 2:05:09.680 everything that we see, all these like viral trends and 2:05:09.720 --> 2:05:15.240 all this stuff filters down into everyday life. And I 2:05:15.240 --> 2:05:20.400 think when news is breaking or trends are happening, we 2:05:20.480 --> 2:05:22.600 only look at the news and the trends like that, 2:05:22.640 --> 2:05:25.280 and we rarely look at the impacts on our neighborhood. 2:05:25.440 --> 2:05:28.360 Whereas you know, if you do a movie that's said 2:05:28.400 --> 2:05:30.920 in the eighties, you will see like the event a 2:05:30.960 --> 2:05:32.960 little bit more about like at the kitchen table, what 2:05:33.040 --> 2:05:36.000 the family is going through as something happens nationally, right 2:05:36.720 --> 2:05:39.080 or so and so's it's almost like we need time 2:05:39.120 --> 2:05:42.000 to process. But this has a very clear time period, 2:05:42.000 --> 2:05:45.840 which is the period right before COVID to the twenty 2:05:45.880 --> 2:05:48.960 twenty four election, and it's enough in the past now 2:05:48.960 --> 2:05:50.680 that I think we can look at how these things 2:05:50.720 --> 2:05:54.880 affected regular people in this in this town, because every 2:05:54.880 --> 2:05:58.080 time you're seeing viral videos about black Lives matter, that's 2:05:58.080 --> 2:05:59.920 impacting the way people act there. So you may get 2:05:59.920 --> 2:06:02.000 a like five white people go stand on a street 2:06:02.000 --> 2:06:05.120 corner there with some signs after George Floyd's death, and 2:06:05.160 --> 2:06:07.280 that's like a huge deal in that town because it's 2:06:07.320 --> 2:06:09.320 like people are shocked by it or they want to 2:06:09.720 --> 2:06:11.840 they want to they want to harass those people after that. 2:06:12.480 --> 2:06:14.600 So that was one factor. And as yeah, and as 2:06:14.680 --> 2:06:18.480 for as for myself, it also overlaps like probably the 2:06:18.520 --> 2:06:21.920 darkest time in my life. And that's not totally unrelated 2:06:22.000 --> 2:06:26.280 to Berkeley Springs in the sense that, like, you know, 2:06:26.600 --> 2:06:29.080 stuff at SPLC was like really really bad at the 2:06:29.080 --> 2:06:31.400 beginning of the book. Then they're not there in the 2:06:31.440 --> 2:06:36.800 second half, and my mental health was was just not 2:06:36.960 --> 2:06:39.240 in a great place. I had spent, as you know, 2:06:39.960 --> 2:06:42.160 a lot of time with these guys, and I know 2:06:42.240 --> 2:06:45.680 you personally have dealt with a lot of threats and really, 2:06:46.280 --> 2:06:49.040 I mean as a woman, I mean you're dealing with 2:06:49.640 --> 2:06:51.880 I imagine it's even scarier because. 2:06:52.240 --> 2:06:56.040 It's grosser anyway, is yeah, that's grosser for sure. 2:06:56.080 --> 2:06:58.000 And I mean you're dealing with I mean, I can't 2:06:58.000 --> 2:07:00.680 even imagine the mentality of someone of the who are 2:07:00.840 --> 2:07:03.360 messaging you and what their their private lives are like. 2:07:03.440 --> 2:07:06.480 So yeah, so yeah, I mean I had gone through 2:07:06.520 --> 2:07:09.280 it for a while on my end. One example that is, 2:07:09.320 --> 2:07:12.960 in twenty twenty one, I took my son to the 2:07:13.160 --> 2:07:17.000 batting cage and afterwards we went to seven eleven and 2:07:17.040 --> 2:07:20.000 I got a call from a number in North Carolina 2:07:20.200 --> 2:07:22.600 and then it was an FBI agent and he's like, hey, 2:07:22.720 --> 2:07:24.680 I just want to you know, as a courtesy, you 2:07:24.680 --> 2:07:26.400 want to let you know that we have somebody who's 2:07:26.520 --> 2:07:31.880 like talking about assassinating you, and you know, do you 2:07:31.880 --> 2:07:32.880 have any questions? 2:07:33.880 --> 2:07:34.000 Is that? 2:07:34.400 --> 2:07:34.600 Yeah? 2:07:34.720 --> 2:07:36.840 I was like I do, but like my eight year 2:07:36.880 --> 2:07:39.440 old is like slurping on a you know, a cherry 2:07:39.480 --> 2:07:40.840 slurpee in the back seat. 2:07:41.040 --> 2:07:42.880 That duty to warn thing is kind of a double 2:07:42.960 --> 2:07:45.560 edged sword, right, because they do have this legal obligation 2:07:45.720 --> 2:07:48.200 to inform you that there's a credible threat on your life, 2:07:48.600 --> 2:07:50.600 but like they're not going to give you enough information 2:07:50.680 --> 2:07:52.920 to make you feel empowered by knowing this information. 2:07:52.960 --> 2:07:54.480 So it's like maybe I would rather just not know. 2:07:55.000 --> 2:07:55.240 Yeah. 2:07:55.360 --> 2:07:56.920 Oh, it was like, literally, if there's something I can 2:07:56.960 --> 2:07:58.960 do to mitigate this, can I just not know? 2:07:59.280 --> 2:08:01.080 Yeah? It was hard. It was hard. That is I 2:08:01.080 --> 2:08:03.600 think one of the things that the normy person would 2:08:03.600 --> 2:08:06.280 find deeply disturbing in the book. But like, yeah, I 2:08:06.280 --> 2:08:07.720 was dealing with that stuff all the time. I would 2:08:07.760 --> 2:08:11.680 get like, you know, I'd get people sending me photos 2:08:11.680 --> 2:08:14.920 of Alan Berg's shooting in the driveway. I don't know 2:08:14.960 --> 2:08:16.680 if you're familiar with that, but like he was the 2:08:16.720 --> 2:08:19.560 talk radio host who was killed by the numbers of the. 2:08:19.640 --> 2:08:21.000 Order, killed by David Lane. 2:08:21.400 --> 2:08:24.320 Yeah, and I would get that all the time. I 2:08:24.440 --> 2:08:26.400 must spent like months of just getting that from like 2:08:26.480 --> 2:08:28.200 random numbers and all this stuff. 2:08:28.400 --> 2:08:30.560 Sometimes, like a group of guys will get very into 2:08:30.640 --> 2:08:33.000 a particular image, and I can imagine the kind of 2:08:33.040 --> 2:08:36.520 guy that is very into the image of Alan Berg's corpse. 2:08:36.800 --> 2:08:37.800 And it's not a nice guy. 2:08:37.920 --> 2:08:40.600 I mean, it's it's taboo. It has like a pornographic 2:08:40.840 --> 2:08:41.680 quality to it. 2:08:41.720 --> 2:08:44.200 But it harkens to a very specific era of the movement, 2:08:44.200 --> 2:08:47.520 like I can imagine there's a particular man who gravitates 2:08:47.560 --> 2:08:48.800 towards that specifically. 2:08:49.240 --> 2:08:53.400 Yeah, and I mean, like I remember getting threatened by Bowers, 2:08:53.880 --> 2:08:55.880 the guy who shot up like because I was on 2:08:55.920 --> 2:08:57.760 GAB all the time, as you know, to a fault, 2:08:58.040 --> 2:09:01.000 I think, but like you know, I got a lot 2:09:01.040 --> 2:09:04.000 of stories out of it and sources. But yeah, because 2:09:04.000 --> 2:09:05.480 I was always dealing with those guys, and I was 2:09:05.480 --> 2:09:08.320 always posting on air and you know, trying to stir 2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:10.200 things up and see what it could shake loose for 2:09:10.240 --> 2:09:13.640 a story. And yeah, Bowers was just some kind of 2:09:13.640 --> 2:09:17.720 idle thing. And so when the Tree of Life shooting happened, 2:09:17.720 --> 2:09:20.720 when he went out and said, you know, screw your optics, 2:09:20.720 --> 2:09:25.280 I'm going in right right, yeah, and I was like, 2:09:25.360 --> 2:09:28.600 I know this guy, that one dingo he So this 2:09:28.720 --> 2:09:32.240 was this was very traumatic for me. I've been holding 2:09:32.520 --> 2:09:35.200 pretty firm on this. I had a lot of manic 2:09:35.280 --> 2:09:38.120 tendencies in the sense of like I could just work constantly, 2:09:38.200 --> 2:09:40.280 and you just work around the clock, work late at night, 2:09:40.320 --> 2:09:44.440 constantly doing investigative reporting. And I was on a mission 2:09:44.480 --> 2:09:48.040 because I was so angry about what had happened. You know, 2:09:48.240 --> 2:09:50.440 you're the right, That's what that really triggered me. I 2:09:50.480 --> 2:09:52.680 had before then, I had been really open to pursuing 2:09:52.840 --> 2:09:56.440 at as a crime reporter or on climate change. These 2:09:56.440 --> 2:09:58.160 were the kind of things that were like I had 2:09:58.400 --> 2:10:02.320 written features of previously. But it was it was after 2:10:02.360 --> 2:10:03.840 you night the ride, I got folks, and I really 2:10:04.000 --> 2:10:06.160 was like, I'm going to put all my abilities into 2:10:06.240 --> 2:10:10.240 trying to create trouble for these guys, and you did. 2:10:10.880 --> 2:10:11.560 Yeah, I did. 2:10:11.960 --> 2:10:17.320 And then when they pushed back, I guess I wasn't 2:10:17.360 --> 2:10:20.120 mentally prepared for how scary it could be, and it 2:10:20.240 --> 2:10:21.919 was lots of stuff. Then I went through a separation 2:10:22.320 --> 2:10:26.360 with my wife, which is fine, we're great friends, you know, 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:29.240 but that was like another factor. And then also the 2:10:29.320 --> 2:10:33.240 SBLC thing, which we can talk about, but the main 2:10:33.280 --> 2:10:35.320 thing is that I reached a breaking point. I was 2:10:35.560 --> 2:10:38.680 I was happened to be in Berkeley Springs with some 2:10:38.800 --> 2:10:42.440 of the sources from the book when I had to 2:10:42.480 --> 2:10:45.040 go home and go to a syche ward and I 2:10:45.120 --> 2:10:48.880 went for three weeks and I got diagnosed with bipolar there, 2:10:48.880 --> 2:10:50.600 which was a very useful diagnosis. 2:10:50.880 --> 2:10:53.600 It makes it makes a big difference because especially it's bipolar. 2:10:53.640 --> 2:10:55.920 If you're just taking an eight depressants, like you're gonna 2:10:55.920 --> 2:10:56.640 be up shit creek. 2:10:56.720 --> 2:10:58.560 Oh yeah, well, the anti sup press is really screwed 2:10:58.600 --> 2:11:00.760 up my stomach and also made me like even more 2:11:00.800 --> 2:11:01.920 manic and stuff like that. 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:05.200 But the book is is a very frank, very very honest, 2:11:05.320 --> 2:11:08.800 very personal and maybe this is why people found the 2:11:08.800 --> 2:11:11.560 book to be, you know, disturbing, because it is a 2:11:11.680 --> 2:11:15.320 very frank discussion of what it means to be the 2:11:15.320 --> 2:11:17.440 person who is for so many years in the thick 2:11:17.480 --> 2:11:20.720 of it, you know, not doing sort of objective detached reporting, 2:11:20.760 --> 2:11:22.720 but getting in there and mixing it up with these 2:11:22.720 --> 2:11:25.480 guys like really, you know, skin in the game, committed 2:11:25.480 --> 2:11:29.120 to the cause, doing investigative journalism in these spaces, and 2:11:29.600 --> 2:11:32.200 I mean, I think we both are guilty of this. 2:11:32.240 --> 2:11:35.600 Over the years on this beat, there is this tendency 2:11:35.640 --> 2:11:37.960 to sort of you know, exchange war stories like oh, 2:11:38.000 --> 2:11:39.160 you know, I got this terrible threat. 2:11:39.160 --> 2:11:40.040 I got this terrible threat. 2:11:40.080 --> 2:11:42.840 You laugh it off, and it's like, you know, it's 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:46.520 this sort of fact of life that you brush off, 2:11:46.560 --> 2:11:48.320 and you know, everyone says, oh, you're so brave, I 2:11:48.320 --> 2:11:49.680 could never do that, and you say, oh, it's not 2:11:49.680 --> 2:11:50.120 a big deal. 2:11:50.160 --> 2:11:51.080 I deal with it all the time. 2:11:51.240 --> 2:11:52.760 Yeah, they say that for sure. 2:11:52.960 --> 2:11:55.240 But then you go home and it is a big deal. 2:11:55.360 --> 2:11:58.920 And people are not is honest about that as they 2:11:58.920 --> 2:12:00.720 could be. I mean, in part because admitting that it 2:12:00.800 --> 2:12:03.600 hurts you makes them double down. If they know they 2:12:03.600 --> 2:12:05.400 got you, they're going to keep digging in that spot. 2:12:05.440 --> 2:12:08.080 But like we don't talk enough about the fact that 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:10.960 this destroys us. Yeah, for sure, it's a very honest. 2:12:11.040 --> 2:12:13.840 Look at what happens when you bought him out on that. 2:12:14.120 --> 2:12:16.720 And it's so much worse than just threats. I mean, 2:12:16.800 --> 2:12:20.760 you're constantly concerned that somebody is going to use law 2:12:20.800 --> 2:12:22.360 fair against you and try to. 2:12:22.400 --> 2:12:24.400 Hurt your family and you have children. 2:12:24.480 --> 2:12:28.680 Yeah, of course, you know, and I am extremely anal 2:12:28.840 --> 2:12:33.600 about legal stuff, Like I'm just like hyper like I 2:12:33.640 --> 2:12:36.040 don't you know, I don't play games I like And 2:12:36.120 --> 2:12:40.160 so that's just an example. It's like we published when 2:12:40.160 --> 2:12:42.480 I was with s BOC. We published the identity of 2:12:42.480 --> 2:12:44.880 Matt Gebert, who is the state department official. I remember 2:12:44.920 --> 2:12:45.160 that guy. 2:12:45.520 --> 2:12:46.840 I was actually going to bring him up. 2:12:46.880 --> 2:12:48.920 I was going to bring up Matt Gibert in terms 2:12:49.000 --> 2:12:51.720 of the number of guys who've moved to West Virginia 2:12:51.760 --> 2:12:53.000 because they think it's only white. 2:12:53.080 --> 2:12:54.840 Yeah, we'll get there in a second. But I just say, 2:12:54.920 --> 2:12:58.000 like before I published that story, even though I'd been 2:12:58.040 --> 2:13:00.320 through a million lawyers and like every I mean, we 2:13:00.400 --> 2:13:02.120 just went through everything and stuff like that. I bought 2:13:02.120 --> 2:13:04.360 a pack of cigarettes, which I never do, you know, 2:13:04.360 --> 2:13:06.200 I don't want to get into my stomach thing too deeply. 2:13:06.240 --> 2:13:08.600 But it was not working. It was not working it 2:13:08.720 --> 2:13:11.640 all that day. It was August seventh, twenty nineteen, and 2:13:11.720 --> 2:13:16.160 I was like, literally I was I was clammy. I 2:13:16.240 --> 2:13:19.480 was sweating. I had never seen his face. He kept 2:13:19.520 --> 2:13:21.960 all of his pictures offline. But I had the goods. 2:13:22.000 --> 2:13:23.760 I knew I had everything. But yet at the same 2:13:23.760 --> 2:13:25.720 this is one doubt. It's like, what if it's not 2:13:25.880 --> 2:13:29.240 him because I don't have the face match forget threats. 2:13:29.640 --> 2:13:33.240 That level of stress of just you know, it's just 2:13:33.280 --> 2:13:35.720 like I checked everything, right, I like you think think 2:13:35.760 --> 2:13:37.760 about the you're trying to leave the house for a 2:13:37.800 --> 2:13:39.720 long trip or something like that, and it's like you 2:13:39.760 --> 2:13:41.840 know that thought, Oh yeah, like did I leave the 2:13:41.880 --> 2:13:44.360 gas stove on when I was you know, when I 2:13:44.400 --> 2:13:47.240 was boiling something for my kids or whatever? Like that's 2:13:47.280 --> 2:13:48.640 the way it feels, right. It's like a sort of 2:13:48.720 --> 2:13:51.760 you like you memorize the entire investigative feature and you're 2:13:51.800 --> 2:13:54.320 like going through it and there's like, oh, oh, you 2:13:54.360 --> 2:13:56.040 know that was that right? Did I check that? And 2:13:56.040 --> 2:13:56.800 I'm like, yes, I did. 2:13:57.280 --> 2:13:58.200 Oh, I know, I know that. 2:13:58.360 --> 2:14:00.520 I know that feeling exacty drives my husband crazy when 2:14:00.560 --> 2:14:02.680 I say things like I'd rather get shot than be 2:14:02.720 --> 2:14:03.440 wrong in public. 2:14:03.800 --> 2:14:06.720 Yeah, no, it's true, it's true. Like I don't I 2:14:06.760 --> 2:14:08.880 don't want to. Yeah, you don't want to be wrong. 2:14:09.120 --> 2:14:10.720 And also you don't want to give these people a 2:14:10.800 --> 2:14:14.880 chance for anything. And you mentioned Brimlow is very litigious. 2:14:14.560 --> 2:14:15.840 Not usually very successfully. 2:14:15.960 --> 2:14:19.480 No, no ease. But that doesn't matter, No, it doesn't matter. Yeah, 2:14:19.480 --> 2:14:21.360 but it's stressful to report on him because of that 2:14:21.400 --> 2:14:23.480 because he just he will use it as a tactic 2:14:23.520 --> 2:14:25.920 and stuff like that. And I gave I also gave 2:14:25.920 --> 2:14:28.480 the Brimlos I should point out many, many opportunities to 2:14:28.520 --> 2:14:32.040 talk to me and more detail about everything, and they 2:14:32.160 --> 2:14:32.800 didn't want to. 2:14:33.120 --> 2:14:35.400 But you do speak to him several times in the book, Yeah, 2:14:35.440 --> 2:14:37.880 I do, I do much to his displeasure. 2:14:38.120 --> 2:14:39.720 Well, I was just to say like, yeah, I mean 2:14:39.880 --> 2:14:43.200 all that really led up to me going to the 2:14:43.200 --> 2:14:46.800 psych word and that and the SBOC thing, which is 2:14:47.400 --> 2:14:50.480 basically my relationship with SBLC is like I was probably 2:14:50.520 --> 2:14:53.320 the most well known person there apology because I've had 2:14:53.320 --> 2:14:56.120 a social media presence and I was doing a lot 2:14:56.160 --> 2:14:58.000 of spokespersonal work, So I was like on TV a 2:14:58.000 --> 2:14:58.960 bunch and stuff like that. 2:14:59.160 --> 2:15:01.680 So whenever someone's at the organization, they're going to take 2:15:01.680 --> 2:15:02.200 it out on you. 2:15:02.600 --> 2:15:05.360 Yeah, And really, for a good part of the early 2:15:05.440 --> 2:15:08.120 years there after Heidi left, we didn't even have a 2:15:08.280 --> 2:15:12.160 director of the intelligence project, so you know, I would 2:15:12.160 --> 2:15:15.440 just get thrown into a lot of TV radio stuff 2:15:15.480 --> 2:15:18.480 like that. And you know, they treated me great. I 2:15:18.480 --> 2:15:21.040 mean they had got my pay raise multiple times and 2:15:21.120 --> 2:15:24.920 promoted and stuff like that, and I kept breaking investigative stories. 2:15:24.960 --> 2:15:28.400 And then when we started to have problems where were 2:15:28.480 --> 2:15:31.360 they started to limit our ability to publish stories. They 2:15:31.400 --> 2:15:34.640 really became very risk averse. 2:15:34.800 --> 2:15:37.160 Which is so contrary to my image of what this 2:15:37.280 --> 2:15:42.240 institution is for. Yeah, both like functionally and morally. Yeah, 2:15:42.800 --> 2:15:45.520 as a senior investigative reporter at the Southern Poverty Los Center, 2:15:45.840 --> 2:15:47.960 you didn't have mental health coverage. You couldn't see a 2:15:47.960 --> 2:15:52.760 real therapist. Yeah, that's horrific. That's a human rights abuse 2:15:53.080 --> 2:15:54.800 to make you look at gabble. They had not get 2:15:54.840 --> 2:15:55.560 you with therapists. 2:15:56.120 --> 2:15:58.840 They were giving us like the app stuff, which is 2:15:58.880 --> 2:15:59.680 not going to cut it. 2:16:00.320 --> 2:16:01.960 You need like a five hundred dollars an hour. 2:16:02.040 --> 2:16:04.720 Yeah, New York analyst was a psychiatrist, you know in 2:16:04.800 --> 2:16:06.200 some okay, like you know, somebody good. 2:16:06.280 --> 2:16:07.400 But they should be covering that. 2:16:07.720 --> 2:16:10.360 Yeah, no they were not. And there's just a whole 2:16:10.360 --> 2:16:12.520 bunch of stuff. There were a bunch of safety issues, 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:16.200 no doubt, anna case, my dear colleagues, still my colleague, 2:16:16.200 --> 2:16:18.440 even though I'm not there anymore. You know, she went 2:16:18.520 --> 2:16:21.400 to go callver Ameron and Tennessee and like a bunch 2:16:21.440 --> 2:16:23.680 of proud boys like basically chased her down. 2:16:24.160 --> 2:16:24.400 Right. 2:16:24.680 --> 2:16:27.080 There was no security plan. There was a woman named 2:16:27.120 --> 2:16:30.160 Susan Cork was the Intelligence project director at that time, 2:16:30.200 --> 2:16:32.240 and she was just you know, how to lunch. She 2:16:32.360 --> 2:16:34.600 just didn't do anything. As far as I could tell. 2:16:34.440 --> 2:16:36.120 Things like what happened to Hannah, Like stuff like that 2:16:36.120 --> 2:16:38.200 happens to me. I expect that I'm out there by myself. 2:16:38.320 --> 2:16:39.000 I have no plan. 2:16:39.160 --> 2:16:40.400 It's just me. I have no plan. 2:16:41.200 --> 2:16:43.840 It was so startling to me to hear that, like 2:16:44.280 --> 2:16:46.280 Hannah is out there operating without a net too. 2:16:47.240 --> 2:16:48.640 There was no plan for her safety. 2:16:48.959 --> 2:16:51.360 Yeah, there was nothing. And so one of the first 2:16:51.400 --> 2:16:55.320 things I did was I helped Shepherd a grievance about this, 2:16:55.879 --> 2:16:59.560 and it was effective because I think that got Cork 2:16:59.600 --> 2:17:03.440 put on like a performance of improvement plan. And then 2:17:03.600 --> 2:17:06.760 after that everything changed at work. I went from betting 2:17:06.800 --> 2:17:11.760 the favored person to being repeatedly at target of what 2:17:11.800 --> 2:17:14.320 did you do? Why did you do this? Like it 2:17:14.360 --> 2:17:17.040 was really, I mean to add on the already stressful 2:17:17.200 --> 2:17:20.760 situation that I was in. It was just like your 2:17:20.800 --> 2:17:23.280 tone in a meeting. And then there was the thing 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:25.680 about that was there was like a verbal warning or 2:17:25.720 --> 2:17:28.160 something that was they actually bothered to write out, which 2:17:28.200 --> 2:17:29.959 was quite stupid. If you're doing a verbal warning, you 2:17:29.959 --> 2:17:33.400 shouldn't put it in print. And sure enough we found 2:17:33.520 --> 2:17:36.680 in there that like all the dialogue that was in 2:17:36.720 --> 2:17:38.520 there was completely fabricated and made. 2:17:38.440 --> 2:17:39.879 Up, and so for the listener. 2:17:39.959 --> 2:17:41.800 So discussed in the book a little bit is the 2:17:41.840 --> 2:17:43.800 fact that at the Southern Poverty Lossenter was engaging in 2:17:43.879 --> 2:17:47.280 union investing. Yes, that's right, so you know you were 2:17:47.280 --> 2:17:50.480 dealing with retaliation for union activity in the workplace. 2:17:50.120 --> 2:17:53.880 Retaliation for union activity. It was really bad. It happened 2:17:54.080 --> 2:17:57.039 a second time after that when I was covering the 2:17:57.080 --> 2:18:02.480 trial Doug Mackie character we can save for another day, 2:18:02.480 --> 2:18:05.360 for another day, and it was really bad, and the 2:18:05.400 --> 2:18:08.000 stress was really getting to me, and I had a 2:18:08.040 --> 2:18:10.879 panic attack which I've never had before while I was 2:18:10.879 --> 2:18:14.560 in the shower. And I told them about that, And 2:18:15.120 --> 2:18:17.039 Susan Cork and the person above her, his name is 2:18:17.040 --> 2:18:19.440 and Beeson. I told him about that. And then they 2:18:19.520 --> 2:18:24.320 responded by turning around and disciplining me again, almost like 2:18:24.400 --> 2:18:26.800 to say, like we've got them on the ropes now, 2:18:27.520 --> 2:18:30.080 let's really like make them quit. 2:18:30.000 --> 2:18:31.119 Say eighty a violation. 2:18:31.640 --> 2:18:34.240 Yeah, And every time we do this, we'd summon the 2:18:34.320 --> 2:18:36.000 union and we'd make it as hairy for them as 2:18:36.040 --> 2:18:38.840 possible to do what they're doing. But there's limits to 2:18:38.879 --> 2:18:41.400 what you can do. Really, when they want to try 2:18:41.400 --> 2:18:43.200 to do these sort of things. They pushed it as 2:18:43.240 --> 2:18:45.560 far as they wanted to go, which is after the 2:18:45.560 --> 2:18:48.440 summer of twenty twenty three there was a Hamas attack 2:18:48.480 --> 2:18:52.680 on Israel, and you know, I have Arabs in my family. 2:18:52.720 --> 2:18:56.400 I have my on my mother's side, including Palestinians. You know, 2:18:56.480 --> 2:18:59.640 I was distraught about this whole situation. It was adding 2:18:59.640 --> 2:19:03.280 another thing on top of it, and watching the retaliation, 2:19:03.400 --> 2:19:08.840 which became a genocide very quickly, did not improve my mood. Obviously. 2:19:08.879 --> 2:19:13.600 It was very stressful to see that stuff. And Hannah 2:19:13.600 --> 2:19:17.200 invited me to sign a thing about you know, it 2:19:17.320 --> 2:19:21.800 was just sort of like asking writers to sign on 2:19:22.080 --> 2:19:25.160 Israel's and apartheid state, you know, calling for a ceasefire. 2:19:25.080 --> 2:19:27.199 Writers for the seasfire. Yeah, I remember, and. 2:19:28.520 --> 2:19:32.199 Free Beacon familiar with that wonderful politician. 2:19:32.680 --> 2:19:34.960 It still comes up in the first few pages of 2:19:35.000 --> 2:19:35.800 your Google results. 2:19:35.840 --> 2:19:37.720 Thank you for noting. Yeah, I know, but this the. 2:19:37.680 --> 2:19:38.680 Book should push it back. 2:19:38.760 --> 2:19:42.800 The book Free Beacon like came out with this thing 2:19:42.840 --> 2:19:47.480 and it was like SPLC spokesperson, you know, blames Israel 2:19:47.560 --> 2:19:49.199 for Hamas violence or something. 2:19:49.040 --> 2:19:52.120 Like that, and just that the audacity to accuse you 2:19:52.120 --> 2:19:56.160 of anti Semitism for signing this letter, you know, supporting 2:19:56.160 --> 2:19:58.760 a ceasefire. I've read that letter. It's it's it's not 2:19:58.800 --> 2:20:01.840 an anti Semitic letter. It's is calling it what it 2:20:01.959 --> 2:20:04.080 is and just asking for a cea spire, right, and 2:20:04.160 --> 2:20:07.720 you have spent a decade writing about anti Semitic violence. 2:20:08.120 --> 2:20:10.600 Well, there's there's tons of there's there's tons of anti 2:20:10.680 --> 2:20:13.840 Zionist Jews on there. I mean, there's probably more than 2:20:13.879 --> 2:20:17.840 anything else. But you know, when this, when this came out, 2:20:18.200 --> 2:20:21.640 I was really pissed. Obviously it had a racist undertone. 2:20:21.640 --> 2:20:23.640 I mean, Hannah was mentioned, but it was mostly about me. 2:20:23.720 --> 2:20:25.959 And then there instead of a picture of me, they 2:20:26.040 --> 2:20:28.680 used they used like one of those pictures of Moss 2:20:28.680 --> 2:20:31.080 looking like Cobra from G I. Joe and with like 2:20:31.120 --> 2:20:32.280 a rocket launcher and. 2:20:32.680 --> 2:20:35.160 Right, implying that you, as as a man of Arab descent, 2:20:35.440 --> 2:20:36.800 are an anti Semitic terrorist. 2:20:36.879 --> 2:20:38.680 Yeah, basically, and and good faith stuff. 2:20:38.680 --> 2:20:41.560 Adding to I would say, this is also complex because 2:20:41.920 --> 2:20:44.920 you know, my family basically fled because of threats from 2:20:44.959 --> 2:20:47.879 Islamic terrorism, right, so this is even more like, you know, 2:20:48.040 --> 2:20:50.880 to align me with that necessarily is not my not ideal, 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:53.360 even though I'm in like, you know, I'm sure I 2:20:53.400 --> 2:20:56.280 have a very more more nuanced idea of what hellas 2:20:56.360 --> 2:20:58.760 is than that author. The point is, it's just, I mean, 2:20:58.760 --> 2:21:00.880 it's just basically to do that and then rather than 2:21:01.040 --> 2:21:05.280 SBOC like cares so much about social justice and racism. 2:21:05.040 --> 2:21:07.879 Rather than seize the opportunity to differentiate themselves from the 2:21:07.879 --> 2:21:11.400 psychosis that the ADL has descended into, as you know, 2:21:11.680 --> 2:21:14.560 because those two organizations sort of exist in the same space, 2:21:14.560 --> 2:21:17.080 they're often used in the same sentence, and the ADL 2:21:17.120 --> 2:21:18.840 has really lost a lot of credibility in the last 2:21:18.840 --> 2:21:19.280 few years. 2:21:19.360 --> 2:21:21.760 I don't think they have any credibility because of those. 2:21:21.840 --> 2:21:26.000 So instead of differentiating themselves from that, they chose to 2:21:26.040 --> 2:21:26.640 discipline you. 2:21:27.160 --> 2:21:29.320 Yeah, they did. And it was that was when I, 2:21:29.600 --> 2:21:33.080 like I said, mental health was like all the factors 2:21:33.400 --> 2:21:36.879 that we've just discussed mentioned And then I was happened 2:21:36.879 --> 2:21:40.200 to be in Berkeley Springs when I reached a point 2:21:40.240 --> 2:21:43.280 where I was like, you know, I was suicidal and 2:21:44.160 --> 2:21:46.800 trigger warning for people. I apologize, but that's the truth, 2:21:47.240 --> 2:21:49.520 and came back and had to spend the sort of 2:21:49.600 --> 2:21:54.440 Christmas break period there where I lost you know, they 2:21:54.520 --> 2:21:57.840 ultimately terminated me. It was a Title seven violation in 2:21:57.920 --> 2:22:02.320 terms of discrimination to what happened effort. And then when 2:22:02.320 --> 2:22:05.360 people found out what happened, the union started to write 2:22:05.360 --> 2:22:08.160 things to you know, to management. There was all this 2:22:08.240 --> 2:22:11.080 internal dialogue happening while I was in a psych word 2:22:11.120 --> 2:22:15.840 with like no access to anything, and almost everybody in 2:22:15.959 --> 2:22:21.439 my line of managers was pushed out and given buyouts 2:22:21.440 --> 2:22:24.760 allegedly Quirk this woman and Beeson and now the CEO is. 2:22:24.760 --> 2:22:27.160 They exposed themselves to some serious liability there. 2:22:27.360 --> 2:22:30.240 Yeah, they got off easy in many ways. Yeah, they 2:22:30.280 --> 2:22:34.120 disposed of me, but I threatened suit with a lawyer, 2:22:34.879 --> 2:22:38.320 wonderful lawyer who she was great Jewish woman from New 2:22:38.400 --> 2:22:42.760 York and as tough as nails. And yeah, I mean 2:22:42.800 --> 2:22:44.800 I got a good settlement out of it, which is, 2:22:44.920 --> 2:22:46.720 you know, I would have preferred just to be able 2:22:46.760 --> 2:22:47.959 to just continue doing my job. 2:22:48.000 --> 2:22:49.920 Though it's heartbreaking to remember that. 2:22:50.000 --> 2:22:53.960 You know, even these progressive nonprofits that are fighting for 2:22:54.000 --> 2:22:56.280 what we believe, they're using you up and spitting you 2:22:56.280 --> 2:22:58.840 out to Yeah, oh sure they're doing union busting. They're 2:22:58.920 --> 2:23:02.000 firing you for having a mental crisis. They're opposed to 2:23:02.040 --> 2:23:04.960 you exercising your free speech off the clock, the kinds 2:23:05.000 --> 2:23:06.920 of things you just you don't want to see from 2:23:06.959 --> 2:23:08.400 an organization like the SPLC. 2:23:08.640 --> 2:23:12.400 Yeah, they had to retract my termination and assign into 2:23:12.440 --> 2:23:15.439 a layoff. And then you know, I had to retract 2:23:16.320 --> 2:23:20.080 labor claims I had made, which would have gone nowhere 2:23:20.080 --> 2:23:23.280 as soon as the Trump administration took over. Anyway, that's heartbreaking, 2:23:24.560 --> 2:23:28.240 which I saw coming in twenty twenty four to a degree. 2:23:28.440 --> 2:23:31.400 So yeah, like that happened. And then bringing it back 2:23:31.400 --> 2:23:34.199 to Berkeley Springs, I was told not to go anywhere, 2:23:34.240 --> 2:23:35.680 but I needed to keep working on the book. So 2:23:35.680 --> 2:23:38.120 it was like a week after I got out of 2:23:38.160 --> 2:23:40.320 the hospital, I came back down there, and then the 2:23:40.320 --> 2:23:44.960 folks who I had been working with since twenty twenty 2:23:45.000 --> 2:23:47.160 when the Brimlas first arrived, they kind of took me 2:23:47.240 --> 2:23:49.360 in and nursed me back to health. So that's why 2:23:49.480 --> 2:23:53.320 it's I feel like unified in the narrative, and we're 2:23:53.360 --> 2:23:55.840 able to explore what happened to me psychologically, and what 2:23:55.879 --> 2:23:58.680 happened is and them psychologically as this other stuff is happening. 2:24:09.840 --> 2:24:11.760 See, I guess I understand why some of the reviewers 2:24:11.760 --> 2:24:14.039 call it disturbing, but that sort of full circle that 2:24:14.120 --> 2:24:15.800 sort of personal closure. 2:24:15.920 --> 2:24:16.120 You know. 2:24:16.160 --> 2:24:19.640 Obviously things weren't ideal, right, you lost your job, but 2:24:19.959 --> 2:24:22.120 I don't know, things came full circle and the people 2:24:22.120 --> 2:24:25.080 that you went there to write about took care of you, 2:24:25.200 --> 2:24:27.000 and you, I don't know, you all. 2:24:26.920 --> 2:24:29.440 Continue along your way as the world falls apart. 2:24:29.520 --> 2:24:31.200 I don't think that they come all cross as like 2:24:31.280 --> 2:24:34.480 perfect either. I mean, like that's what I'm really hopeful for. No. 2:24:34.680 --> 2:24:36.600 I mean they're all complicated people. 2:24:36.840 --> 2:24:38.880 You know. I wanted to avoid like the sort of 2:24:39.120 --> 2:24:42.680 wishy washy utopian like I'm an ally you know, and 2:24:44.000 --> 2:24:46.200 it's like, yeah, actually the people who are allies have 2:24:46.240 --> 2:24:49.080 all kinds of issue that marital problems. Maybe some of 2:24:49.080 --> 2:24:51.360 them are like behave badly in one thing or whatever, 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:54.600 all people trying to live. It's really a question of 2:24:55.280 --> 2:25:01.080 what this particular ideology that has been foisted upon us 2:25:01.959 --> 2:25:07.120 very rapidly by the likes of Steve Bannon and Brimlow 2:25:07.160 --> 2:25:10.560 and others. Right, it was a collective push to take 2:25:10.840 --> 2:25:15.760 the existing right wing mom star and set it in 2:25:15.760 --> 2:25:18.640 this direction. What this is doing to us. 2:25:18.920 --> 2:25:21.880 It's a very intimate look at what that is like 2:25:22.000 --> 2:25:24.840 for individual people. You know, we were all experiencing having 2:25:25.480 --> 2:25:28.119 right wing violence foisted upon us from above. But this 2:25:28.160 --> 2:25:31.160 is I don't know, there were these like small moments 2:25:31.200 --> 2:25:33.760 of like physical intimacy, like when you're you're at the 2:25:33.760 --> 2:25:36.440 castle for the party and you know you and Peter 2:25:36.520 --> 2:25:39.600 Brimlow are exchanging like this lighthearted moment, and you reach 2:25:39.640 --> 2:25:41.760 out and you put your hand on his shoulder. Instinctively, 2:25:42.120 --> 2:25:44.080 when you're sharing laughter with someone, you put out, you 2:25:44.080 --> 2:25:46.160 put your hand on his shoulder and like, you know, 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:48.400 recoiled immediately and didn't know why you had done that. 2:25:48.480 --> 2:25:50.840 But this like tiny moment of physical intimacy that you 2:25:50.879 --> 2:25:54.920 know this was a person, or the transgender mushroom farmer 2:25:54.959 --> 2:25:58.280 Lisa Marie who sought out Lydia Brimlow at church and 2:25:58.320 --> 2:26:00.800 shook her hand during the Right of Peace, Like I 2:26:00.800 --> 2:26:02.160 would have loved to have seen that. 2:26:02.680 --> 2:26:05.120 She's so cool, by the way, you should have her 2:26:05.160 --> 2:26:08.080 on She's awesome, she sounds amazing. 2:26:08.520 --> 2:26:10.200 I would love to meet Lisa Marie. 2:26:10.800 --> 2:26:13.320 Well, I'll tell you about her in a second. But yeah, 2:26:13.360 --> 2:26:15.480 I mean, yeah, I mean Brimlo is behaving in a 2:26:15.600 --> 2:26:18.160 very I mean he has like an infuncular kind of 2:26:18.320 --> 2:26:21.240 vibe like in person when he's not angry with you. 2:26:21.959 --> 2:26:25.879 And I'm sure that for people who know him in 2:26:25.920 --> 2:26:29.199 a friendly way in the movement that he's he's fun. 2:26:29.240 --> 2:26:32.240 You know, he likes to drink room temperature Vanka. 2:26:32.360 --> 2:26:34.959 He is always just talking like this, so he sounds 2:26:35.000 --> 2:26:38.480 like he's always had her for your drinks. Probably he 2:26:38.520 --> 2:26:42.160 has that British way of just some kind of dry 2:26:42.240 --> 2:26:45.200 remark about things going to pot. Like, you know, I'm 2:26:45.200 --> 2:26:48.480 sure it's fun for people who know him, and you know, 2:26:48.480 --> 2:26:51.800 you're in that space and any kind of party thing 2:26:51.920 --> 2:26:54.039 or whatever you can let go for a second. And 2:26:54.080 --> 2:26:57.280 for a second I felt not that, like I felt like, oh, 2:26:57.400 --> 2:26:59.360 this is my friend or any It is more than I'm. 2:26:59.240 --> 2:27:02.240 Just talking exactly. You know, people really bristle it that 2:27:02.280 --> 2:27:04.880 you know, you're humanizing him. Well, yeah, because he's human. 2:27:05.000 --> 2:27:08.560 Humanizing doesn't mean excusing or you know, coming to appreciate 2:27:08.600 --> 2:27:09.000 it anyway. 2:27:09.000 --> 2:27:10.720 It just means like he's human. 2:27:10.840 --> 2:27:12.640 So for most of the book, the strange people on 2:27:12.680 --> 2:27:15.959 the hill are removed on the hill, but when you 2:27:16.080 --> 2:27:20.640 encounter them, there is this very human intimacy to these encounters. 2:27:21.040 --> 2:27:24.400 And not only that, everybody has a rough go in 2:27:24.400 --> 2:27:26.720 this book, including that getting. 2:27:26.520 --> 2:27:28.240 Raked over the coals by Letitia James. 2:27:28.560 --> 2:27:30.720 Well, over the course of this that there if you 2:27:30.760 --> 2:27:33.959 follow their their arc and their arcs throughout the book, 2:27:34.280 --> 2:27:38.680 but one particular arc, it starts with them really thinking 2:27:38.720 --> 2:27:40.680 they've got it, like this is like this like high 2:27:40.720 --> 2:27:43.920 point of Vider's existence. They have a castle. They have 2:27:43.959 --> 2:27:48.040 a home base that they can use in perpetuity after 2:27:48.120 --> 2:27:51.280 Brimla leaves, the movement can flourish and grow. This is 2:27:51.360 --> 2:27:52.959 like this is it. They got a castle. 2:27:53.160 --> 2:27:54.960 I mean, it would be the perfect place for white 2:27:55.040 --> 2:27:57.440 nationalists meet up. They haven't really used it that way 2:27:57.520 --> 2:27:59.879 that much, like every now and again, but like this, 2:28:00.000 --> 2:28:00.280 this is. 2:28:00.240 --> 2:28:02.959 The best situation they've ever had, Like they're great. And 2:28:02.959 --> 2:28:05.760 they've also just coming off of getting a whole bunch 2:28:05.800 --> 2:28:08.600 of dark money donations from two people we don't know 2:28:08.640 --> 2:28:10.560 who they are, but it's like, you know, four point 2:28:10.680 --> 2:28:15.760 five mil in like one year through donors Trust, and 2:28:16.520 --> 2:28:19.800 they're writing really high. And then by the end from 2:28:19.840 --> 2:28:22.720 the Letitia James investigation, it had not turned into a 2:28:22.800 --> 2:28:25.480 lawsuit yet by that point, under the pressure of that 2:28:26.000 --> 2:28:28.720 and just under the pressure of just everybody around them, 2:28:28.840 --> 2:28:31.560 you know, not wanting them to be there, they decided 2:28:31.600 --> 2:28:35.959 to dial down VideA altogether, and it still exists in 2:28:36.000 --> 2:28:39.000 the sense of like the Twitter accounts still exists, and 2:28:39.240 --> 2:28:43.200 Brimo is still writing on substack. Some of it is 2:28:43.240 --> 2:28:46.080 a legal thing to try to, you know, get them 2:28:46.120 --> 2:28:49.280 out of the way of Letitia James. But you know 2:28:49.480 --> 2:28:51.760 they're really broken down. I mean, the videos that they 2:28:51.920 --> 2:28:55.720 published about their closing, I mean, it's just a laundry 2:28:55.720 --> 2:28:59.040 list of things that add up to a defeat. I 2:28:59.040 --> 2:29:01.000 don't think they would disagree with that that they felt 2:29:01.040 --> 2:29:03.760 defeated by the end. And the people who were in 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:05.840 the town, who are so nice and sweet and wonderful 2:29:05.840 --> 2:29:08.760 and all this, they're laughing as you would right as 2:29:08.760 --> 2:29:11.120 everyone talked about like when Trump dies and everybody's like, oh, 2:29:11.120 --> 2:29:12.800 I'm going to do this when Trump dies and all 2:29:12.800 --> 2:29:15.959 that stuff. Right, it's just liberation from that thing. But 2:29:16.240 --> 2:29:18.920 ultimately it's a really like if you just look at 2:29:18.920 --> 2:29:21.520 the Brimlows, it is, you know, it is a brutal 2:29:21.600 --> 2:29:23.039 fall by the end of the book. 2:29:23.440 --> 2:29:25.840 Yeah, I mean ten years ago they were poised to 2:29:25.920 --> 2:29:29.480 be on top of the world and their ideas remain ascendant, 2:29:29.600 --> 2:29:33.240 but he himself has really fallen. Now he just has 2:29:33.280 --> 2:29:35.680 the flooded basement of his little racism castle. 2:29:35.840 --> 2:29:38.720 Well, there's no there's no solidarity on their side. I just, 2:29:38.879 --> 2:29:40.480 oh god, that's what I saying. 2:29:40.560 --> 2:29:42.280 Oh, that's one thing they will never happen. 2:29:42.320 --> 2:29:43.119 I mean, you get. 2:29:43.000 --> 2:29:47.920 Somebody who annoys me, who is a sort of anti fascist, 2:29:47.959 --> 2:29:49.920 anti racist, who like annoys the shit out of me, 2:29:50.000 --> 2:29:52.880 but they they wind up like, you know, being targeted 2:29:53.280 --> 2:29:55.439 by somebody. I'm like, okay, well. 2:29:55.280 --> 2:29:56.720 You're not going to gloat about their downfall. 2:29:57.000 --> 2:29:58.640 But not only that, but it's like now it's time 2:29:58.680 --> 2:30:01.600 to like, you know, support them. You know, that's the 2:30:01.600 --> 2:30:02.240 way I feel. 2:30:02.400 --> 2:30:03.880 And they just don't do that. They don't do that 2:30:03.959 --> 2:30:05.720 for each other. They hate each other. 2:30:06.280 --> 2:30:09.840 They're always malignant narcissists because it's always about cloying to 2:30:09.879 --> 2:30:12.480 the top, right, it's always trying to get power over 2:30:12.520 --> 2:30:13.039 other people. 2:30:13.080 --> 2:30:14.800 I mean, everybody wants to be the crab at the 2:30:14.800 --> 2:30:17.280 top of the bucket, but you're still crabbing a goddamn bucket. 2:30:17.720 --> 2:30:20.880 There's two strains of maga. I know, mega is a 2:30:20.959 --> 2:30:24.120 very broad term, and like one of them is really 2:30:24.160 --> 2:30:30.359 this kind of grift focused, kind of cryptoweb three aligned aspect. 2:30:30.440 --> 2:30:33.160 We're just AI and this and like a small number 2:30:33.200 --> 2:30:35.199 of people, like fifteen percent will go hoard a bunch 2:30:35.240 --> 2:30:40.000 of like fake coins or whatever things polymarket, like odds 2:30:40.080 --> 2:30:42.879 or whatever. They're all hoarding information to kind of beat 2:30:42.879 --> 2:30:47.000 people in polymarket. And then the suckers they you know whatever, 2:30:47.040 --> 2:30:48.560 the o the rest of it, the bigger percentage of 2:30:48.600 --> 2:30:52.480 seventy five percent followers, they're taking their money and that's MAGA. 2:30:53.240 --> 2:30:54.560 That's a big part of bag. And then the other 2:30:54.600 --> 2:30:58.560 part is less concerned with money, although money is a 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:03.240 part of it. Is just ascending and pushing down from 2:31:03.280 --> 2:31:05.480 a power power space, right, Like you just like to 2:31:06.080 --> 2:31:08.520 be in a place where they can have power over 2:31:08.600 --> 2:31:12.800 other people, and usually other people being designated by not 2:31:12.920 --> 2:31:15.200 looking like them or not behaving like them, or not 2:31:15.280 --> 2:31:20.039 having the same kind of boyfriend's girlfriends whatever than them. 2:31:20.280 --> 2:31:22.000 It's like, I mean, I couldn't be happier that Peter 2:31:22.080 --> 2:31:24.879 Brimlow is going to end his career on the bottom 2:31:24.879 --> 2:31:26.200 of the heap he was trying to climb. 2:31:26.320 --> 2:31:28.560 Yeah, you know, yeah, and they'll be the I guarantee you, 2:31:28.640 --> 2:31:32.560 they'll be more of an effort from us to define 2:31:32.560 --> 2:31:35.600 his legacy than from them, because they don't care. 2:31:35.840 --> 2:31:38.160 They don't care, No they they will, they'll use you 2:31:38.240 --> 2:31:38.879 up and forget you. 2:31:39.000 --> 2:31:41.160 Yeah, they don't care. We will. We will spend more 2:31:41.160 --> 2:31:43.520 time on him than so we. I mean, we're talking 2:31:43.520 --> 2:31:45.800 about him right now. We have I have a host 2:31:45.840 --> 2:31:48.240 of podcast where we talk about these guys all the time, right, 2:31:48.280 --> 2:31:50.360 so it's a gro always bringing up new guys. I 2:31:50.360 --> 2:31:52.760 think we're doing a We're doing a full BIOEP on 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:55.640 Steven Miller soon. You know, they don't do that. They 2:31:55.640 --> 2:31:58.000 don't care, They're not like, here's the reason Steven's great. 2:31:58.120 --> 2:32:00.960 Like no, I mean, Jason Kessel disappeared from the internet 2:32:01.000 --> 2:32:02.800 a year ago and they don't talk about him anymore. 2:32:02.920 --> 2:32:04.960 Oh, it's like he never existed. 2:32:05.360 --> 2:32:07.520 Yeah, I mean, but you know what, I hope he 2:32:07.600 --> 2:32:10.480 stays off that, you know what I mean. I try 2:32:10.480 --> 2:32:14.480 to find some forgiveness in my heart. You know, maybe 2:32:14.480 --> 2:32:17.160 it's the Catholic upbringing, whatever, but I try to find 2:32:17.360 --> 2:32:20.280 some even though he literally who knows what he did 2:32:20.320 --> 2:32:22.760 that was related to threats I received because he wrote 2:32:22.800 --> 2:32:23.480 stuff about me. 2:32:23.720 --> 2:32:25.680 I mean, I think that that series he put on 2:32:25.840 --> 2:32:28.360 vdare that included information about you and your family certainly 2:32:28.360 --> 2:32:28.760 didn't help. 2:32:28.840 --> 2:32:33.000 Yeah, for sure. But you know, if he stays offline 2:32:33.040 --> 2:32:35.760 and he stays like this, Like I hope that he's 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:37.000 getting some help. 2:32:37.240 --> 2:32:39.480 That's all anyone ever asked. I mean, that's all I 2:32:39.560 --> 2:32:42.879 was ever asking for from these guys. I'm not even 2:32:42.920 --> 2:32:44.480 holding out hope that you change your heart. 2:32:44.560 --> 2:32:47.160 I just want you to stop doing stuff. 2:32:46.879 --> 2:32:49.600 About it, yes, I mean, just stop trying to make 2:32:49.640 --> 2:32:50.320 everything worse. 2:32:50.520 --> 2:32:53.959 Yes, yeah. Really, Like I mean, but if he's out 2:32:53.959 --> 2:32:56.320 there and he's like, I'm just gonna, like, you know, 2:32:56.879 --> 2:32:59.080 keep it quiet. And I have a hard time imagining 2:32:59.120 --> 2:33:02.879 that guy like any kind of change of heart. But 2:33:03.640 --> 2:33:06.600 it would be great if he just stayed, just stayed 2:33:06.600 --> 2:33:10.720 at everything and just lived his life. And you know, privately, 2:33:10.879 --> 2:33:15.000 I would I would feel some tiny crumb of respect for. 2:33:14.959 --> 2:33:19.120 That God willing, God willing, and maybe, uh maybe Peter 2:33:19.200 --> 2:33:22.240 Brimlo will log off forever eventually too. 2:33:22.720 --> 2:33:27.640 Well, yeah, I mean based upon the age that that's yeah. 2:33:27.560 --> 2:33:29.760 Well he's gonna he's going to do it, permanent log 2:33:29.800 --> 2:33:32.000 off eventually, permanent. 2:33:31.640 --> 2:33:35.240 Log off eventually. I've heard all kinds of gossip about 2:33:35.720 --> 2:33:40.800 from people in Berkeley Springs that Lydia really doesn't want 2:33:40.840 --> 2:33:44.040 to be associated with the white nationalist movement and really 2:33:44.040 --> 2:33:47.480 doesn't want us to be associated with the movement in general, 2:33:47.640 --> 2:33:49.200 just if you want to give it another term that 2:33:49.240 --> 2:33:51.400 they might use, like dissid and write or whatever. She's 2:33:52.200 --> 2:33:54.240 I think, I don't know this for a fact that 2:33:54.320 --> 2:33:57.200 she would never tell me directly. Think about Lydia Bremlo. 2:33:57.720 --> 2:34:01.960 You're twenty years old. It's very rich. White husband comes 2:34:02.000 --> 2:34:06.440 by his old for you. He's like fifty seven, and 2:34:07.360 --> 2:34:10.520 he's recently lost his wife Brimola lost his first wife 2:34:10.879 --> 2:34:15.200 to cancer. And you're in the kind of heritage seeing 2:34:15.240 --> 2:34:17.560 your kind of conservative yourself and. 2:34:17.480 --> 2:34:19.000 This guy conservative. 2:34:19.240 --> 2:34:20.440 This is this is. 2:34:20.360 --> 2:34:24.200 Happening around a time in which alien nation is still 2:34:24.480 --> 2:34:25.760 kind of acceptable. 2:34:25.840 --> 2:34:27.440 I mean, at least in the heritage front set. 2:34:27.480 --> 2:34:30.199 Sure, yeah, on the right it was kind of acceptable. 2:34:30.520 --> 2:34:33.080 But even you know, even if it's acceptable, the worst 2:34:33.120 --> 2:34:34.720 you could say about it. He's kind of a bad boy, 2:34:34.920 --> 2:34:36.760 like a bad you know, he's got right so it's 2:34:36.760 --> 2:34:39.280 sort of like, ooh, edgy, he's like an edgy bad boy, 2:34:39.879 --> 2:34:44.040 and you kind of get indoctrinated into the movement that way, 2:34:44.560 --> 2:34:47.640 and you're in a marriage like I don't know, Like 2:34:47.720 --> 2:34:50.120 when I was like twenty something, I don't know, I 2:34:50.160 --> 2:34:52.240 didn't know what the hell was going on. So you're 2:34:52.280 --> 2:34:56.119 in this marriage with this dude, and you have kids now, 2:34:56.440 --> 2:34:59.640 and you've seen the other side of it, the hell 2:34:59.680 --> 2:35:03.160 of it up close all the time, people shutting down 2:35:03.200 --> 2:35:05.680 the website. People there were hackers. There's all kinds of 2:35:05.680 --> 2:35:08.280 things that they're dealing with constantly. Everyone is telling you, 2:35:08.640 --> 2:35:11.800 everyone other than people in the movement are finding ways. 2:35:11.840 --> 2:35:13.640 Whenever they get a chance to speak to you, they're 2:35:13.680 --> 2:35:17.520 telling you, you know, go fuck yourself. We hate this, right, 2:35:17.760 --> 2:35:19.640 we hate you. We don't like this stuff. 2:35:19.680 --> 2:35:20.720 It's got to be discouraging. 2:35:20.959 --> 2:35:22.959 I mean for years and then now all of a sudden, 2:35:23.000 --> 2:35:25.440 you're turning forty and you've got kids and you're looking 2:35:25.480 --> 2:35:29.000 at this. I mean, I personally would want to like 2:35:29.120 --> 2:35:31.120 just get as far away from it as possible. I mean, 2:35:31.120 --> 2:35:33.879 it just seems like it's just a depressing just you know. 2:35:34.720 --> 2:35:37.200 Yeah, like I said, that's all I want for these 2:35:37.200 --> 2:35:39.360 people is that they stop doing harm in the world. 2:35:39.560 --> 2:35:41.280 And you know, if they have a change of heart, 2:35:41.320 --> 2:35:44.959 that's wonderful. Don't tell us about it. Yeah, just just 2:35:45.000 --> 2:35:47.720 log off, Just go be normal, Go get a real job, 2:35:48.000 --> 2:35:51.280 stop being a Nazi. Just just go just go be 2:35:51.320 --> 2:35:52.000 a guy in the world. 2:35:52.160 --> 2:35:55.039 Yeah, I would really like that. I think they're kind 2:35:55.040 --> 2:35:59.160 of entering now a sort of post Nazi phase. 2:36:00.600 --> 2:36:01.920 I mean, because they don't they don't have to be 2:36:02.000 --> 2:36:04.520 edgy anymore. They're the mainstream Republican politics. 2:36:04.520 --> 2:36:06.400 Now you can be just you can just be a 2:36:06.440 --> 2:36:08.080 gracist Nazi at all the time. And that's why it's 2:36:08.080 --> 2:36:10.720 starting to mutate into like these like whole looks maxing 2:36:10.760 --> 2:36:13.400 and like you know, which is like in cell but 2:36:13.600 --> 2:36:17.800 like we're not insuls anymore, we hammer our face whatever, 2:36:18.080 --> 2:36:21.600 you know. I just think that they're now so they 2:36:21.800 --> 2:36:23.680 think they're such part of the culture, and it would 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:26.840 be it'll be very interesting for me to see if 2:36:26.840 --> 2:36:29.600 there is a huge change after this, if we see 2:36:29.879 --> 2:36:32.160 sort of the Trump regime kind of fall, have a 2:36:32.200 --> 2:36:34.840 really hard fall, and some of this really starts to 2:36:34.920 --> 2:36:38.160 break up. What will happen and when people like look 2:36:38.200 --> 2:36:40.080 back at some of the stuff that's happening over the 2:36:40.080 --> 2:36:42.960 past like a few years, even as there's been this 2:36:43.400 --> 2:36:46.320 tremendous explosion. If you look at the time from when 2:36:46.360 --> 2:36:49.039 the book ended, which is again on the election day, 2:36:49.120 --> 2:36:51.920 the day after the election, I'm twenty twenty four, I mean. 2:36:51.920 --> 2:36:53.039 What a moment to end things. 2:36:53.120 --> 2:36:55.360 Yeah, but if you look at that from there to now, 2:36:55.920 --> 2:36:58.400 you see like that was almost like an endpoint before 2:36:58.400 --> 2:37:01.080 this new culture that we're in now, where you have 2:37:01.120 --> 2:37:06.000 the shootings in Minneapolis and it's just the outright violence, 2:37:06.040 --> 2:37:10.240 the blown up boats, all this stuff. I'm very curious 2:37:10.560 --> 2:37:13.440 to see our culture, if our culture can heal a 2:37:13.480 --> 2:37:16.920 little bit, how this stuff will be viewed. Yeah. 2:37:16.959 --> 2:37:19.360 I mean, it is, like you said, it ends before 2:37:19.400 --> 2:37:22.160 the story is over. But I think, you know, as 2:37:22.240 --> 2:37:25.400 a portrait of that four year period in that town, 2:37:26.680 --> 2:37:29.520 I mean, it's fascinating. It is I think applicable to 2:37:29.560 --> 2:37:31.879 the world outside of Berkeley Springs, but it is a 2:37:32.000 --> 2:37:35.840 very intimate look at what it means for a weird, 2:37:35.879 --> 2:37:38.800 old racist blogger to move into the castle that looms 2:37:38.800 --> 2:37:43.280 above your coffee shop. Absolutely, I don't want to keep 2:37:43.280 --> 2:37:45.240 you forever, but I just want to remind the listener 2:37:45.360 --> 2:37:47.760 Strange People on the Hill, how extremism tore a part 2:37:47.800 --> 2:37:51.720 of small American town by Michael Edison Hayden comes out April. 2:37:51.840 --> 2:37:54.320 Seventh, Yeah, April seventh, April seventh. 2:37:54.360 --> 2:37:56.640 You can pre order it now wherever books are sold, 2:37:56.760 --> 2:37:58.360 or you could just go to a bookstore on April 2:37:58.440 --> 2:38:00.480 seventh and pick a copy up. I'm going to go 2:38:00.520 --> 2:38:02.959 ahead and contact my local anarchist bookstore to make sure 2:38:03.000 --> 2:38:04.640 they have an order in for it, and I recommend 2:38:04.680 --> 2:38:05.080 you do the. 2:38:05.000 --> 2:38:06.520 Same anarchist bookstore. 2:38:06.560 --> 2:38:10.240 Better don't buy it on Amazon. I mean you can, 2:38:10.360 --> 2:38:10.800 but don't. 2:38:10.920 --> 2:38:14.080 Yeah, and tell your local library that you want them 2:38:14.120 --> 2:38:16.080 to buy a copy, because that matters too, and that 2:38:16.120 --> 2:38:18.560 gets this book into more people's hands, because not everybody 2:38:18.600 --> 2:38:20.959 can afford to buy a book. So yeah, requested at 2:38:21.000 --> 2:38:23.560 your local independent bookstore and your library if you can. 2:38:23.959 --> 2:38:26.840 Yeah. I heard from friends that like at random places 2:38:26.879 --> 2:38:29.360 in Illinois and whatever that they can find the book 2:38:30.000 --> 2:38:31.800 at their local library. They we'll be able to get it. 2:38:31.840 --> 2:38:35.200 So that's great. Please ask for it and yeah, and 2:38:35.560 --> 2:38:37.800 enjoy it. I think it'll have. My hope is it 2:38:37.840 --> 2:38:40.320 has long tail. There's some word of mouth about the era. 2:38:41.000 --> 2:38:44.039 So something to read, something to read not just now, 2:38:44.080 --> 2:38:45.840 but also in the future. Yeah. 2:38:45.840 --> 2:38:48.920 It is a fascinating picture of a particular moment in 2:38:48.959 --> 2:38:52.039 time that has broader lessons I think. 2:38:52.600 --> 2:38:54.520 But my thanks so much for coming on. Where can 2:38:54.520 --> 2:38:55.640 people find you online? 2:38:55.760 --> 2:38:58.560 Thank you? You're even cooler in person. 2:38:58.800 --> 2:39:00.000 I just don't thank you. 2:39:00.040 --> 2:39:02.400 Where can find me online? I'm in Blue Sky? What 2:39:02.720 --> 2:39:04.840 the hell is? What's I hate? The Blue Sky handles? 2:39:05.160 --> 2:39:07.000 That was the one thing that you know, people complain 2:39:07.040 --> 2:39:08.720 about Blue Sky and it's like for me, it's like, 2:39:08.720 --> 2:39:10.840 what do you even want? Dude, Like, you know, all 2:39:10.879 --> 2:39:13.880 this stuff is so bad, right, like, what do you 2:39:13.959 --> 2:39:17.040 even want? It's Michael E. Hayden dot b s K 2:39:17.440 --> 2:39:21.640 Y dot social s O C I A L. I'm 2:39:21.680 --> 2:39:25.080 still technically on Twitter at Michael E. Hayden, where I've 2:39:25.080 --> 2:39:27.520 always been. You know, when I was writing the book 2:39:27.560 --> 2:39:29.400 and I was recovering from the mental health thing, I 2:39:29.480 --> 2:39:32.039 wasn't online at all for all twenty twenty four and 2:39:32.120 --> 2:39:36.760 so my nice that greatered my my ex engagement. In 2:39:36.800 --> 2:39:38.640 any case, I don't like being on there too much 2:39:38.760 --> 2:39:40.560 just for anything other than research. 2:39:40.800 --> 2:39:42.920 And people can find you every week on posting through 2:39:43.120 --> 2:39:43.520 Jared Hall. 2:39:43.720 --> 2:39:47.360 Oh that's true. Yeah, just you know, just do that. 2:39:47.480 --> 2:39:49.680 You can listen to us talk about all kinds of things. 2:39:49.680 --> 2:39:53.640 We're talking about cospital, We're talking about the ai fruits 2:39:53.879 --> 2:39:57.480 that we keep finding on our on our feeds now, 2:39:58.400 --> 2:39:59.400 all kinds of topics. 2:40:00.080 --> 2:40:01.000 Fruits. 2:40:02.120 --> 2:40:05.320 Oh, Mike, thank you so much and again by the book. 2:40:05.600 --> 2:40:06.400 You're gonna love it. 2:40:06.680 --> 2:40:08.480 Thanks Molly, thanks so much. 2:40:08.600 --> 2:40:09.560 By book. 2:40:22.959 --> 2:40:26.080 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and this is it could 2:40:26.160 --> 2:40:30.800 happen Here a podcast about well what's happening. And on 2:40:30.840 --> 2:40:33.440 March thirtieth, twenty twenty six, which is the day that 2:40:33.520 --> 2:40:36.240 I started sitting down to write the episode that you're 2:40:36.280 --> 2:40:39.560 listening to right now, Reuter's published an article announcing the 2:40:39.640 --> 2:40:43.000 arrival of another twenty five hundred United States Marines in 2:40:43.040 --> 2:40:47.000 the Middle East as the Trump administration quote considers options 2:40:47.080 --> 2:40:51.600 for Iran operations. As you all know, Operation Epic Fury. 2:40:52.320 --> 2:40:54.320 It's not that I call it, but its name was 2:40:54.400 --> 2:40:57.000 launched a little over a month ago, with the administration 2:40:57.120 --> 2:41:01.320 insists and expected duration of four to six weeks, and 2:41:01.360 --> 2:41:04.280 we're coming up to the end of that timeline. Trump 2:41:04.280 --> 2:41:07.400 announced the day I record this March thirty first, that 2:41:07.480 --> 2:41:11.400 he's expecting combat operations to end in two weeks or less. 2:41:11.840 --> 2:41:15.360 So we'll see what happens tomorrow. They're supposed to be 2:41:15.480 --> 2:41:18.520 a speech by the President on Iran, so we'll know 2:41:18.680 --> 2:41:23.080 more then, But relevant reporting indicates the Trump administration is 2:41:23.120 --> 2:41:26.160 at least seriously weighing the feasibility of sending marines in 2:41:26.280 --> 2:41:29.879 to take and hold Iranian territory, namely Karg Island and 2:41:29.920 --> 2:41:33.120 potentially other islands in the Strait of Hormos, most of 2:41:33.160 --> 2:41:36.520 which are inhabited and all of which are heavily defended. 2:41:37.040 --> 2:41:39.240 If they go through with this, we might be about 2:41:39.280 --> 2:41:41.720 to watch in real time one of the most consequential 2:41:41.760 --> 2:41:45.520 disasters in military history, a modern day Gallipoli, in which 2:41:45.600 --> 2:41:49.920 hundreds or thousands of American soldiers and billions in materiel 2:41:50.240 --> 2:41:54.280 get chewed up in an unsustainable and unwinnable war of attrition. 2:41:55.040 --> 2:41:57.520 There's no real way for the average American to know 2:41:57.560 --> 2:42:01.320 what kind of stockpile our military maintains the most advanced munitions. 2:42:01.400 --> 2:42:04.800 We're talking precision guided missiles like the Tomahawk cruise missile, 2:42:05.120 --> 2:42:08.600 but also the interceptor missiles used by our various missile batteries. 2:42:09.240 --> 2:42:12.600 Estimates suggests the US has already expended about one thousand 2:42:12.640 --> 2:42:15.520 Tomahawks in a month of combat operations, which would be 2:42:15.640 --> 2:42:19.000 around a third, maybe a little less, of the total stockpile. 2:42:19.560 --> 2:42:22.000 That doesn't sound so bad until you realize that our 2:42:22.040 --> 2:42:25.600 present stockpile of Tomahawks was built up over more than 2:42:25.600 --> 2:42:28.879 a decade We're only capable of making about one hundred 2:42:28.920 --> 2:42:31.640 and fifty a year at present levels, which means our 2:42:31.640 --> 2:42:35.080 military already burned through around seven years worth of these things, 2:42:35.520 --> 2:42:37.720 maybe more, because in twenty twenty five, the US to 2:42:37.800 --> 2:42:41.800 finish budget included something like fifty six Tomahawks, even though 2:42:41.840 --> 2:42:45.440 our largely ineffectual war against the Houthis had already depleted 2:42:45.440 --> 2:42:48.400 the stockpile. This is a story that you'll hear over 2:42:48.480 --> 2:42:51.240 and over again in this episode. The US military is 2:42:51.280 --> 2:42:54.760 actually quite bad at knowing and asking for what it 2:42:54.800 --> 2:42:57.959 will need, and even worse at predicting accurately what it's 2:42:58.000 --> 2:43:01.520 going to need in the immediate future. Each Tomahawk costs 2:43:01.520 --> 2:43:04.360 them around three point six million dollars to produce, and 2:43:04.400 --> 2:43:07.600 these are the only long range offensive weapons mounted by 2:43:07.600 --> 2:43:12.440 our naval destroyers. Per a source interviewed by Military Watch magazine, quote, 2:43:12.560 --> 2:43:17.160 without intervention, the Pentagon may be left out of ammunition. Now, 2:43:17.440 --> 2:43:20.400 Tomahawks aren't the only things the US military is low on. 2:43:20.720 --> 2:43:24.160 For that same article, inventories of anti ballistic missiles and 2:43:24.280 --> 2:43:27.280 GBU fifty seven bunker buster bombs are estimated to have 2:43:27.320 --> 2:43:31.440 been almost totally spent, while being significantly more costly to replace. 2:43:32.360 --> 2:43:34.840 We just don't have granular data on the size of 2:43:34.959 --> 2:43:38.840 US interceptor missile stockpiles or supply of stuff like Patriot missiles, 2:43:39.120 --> 2:43:41.480 but we do have a pretty good understanding of how 2:43:41.520 --> 2:43:44.800 badly our regional allies have depleted their stockpiles of these 2:43:44.800 --> 2:43:48.320 defensive tools. Bahrain is estimated to have expended eighty seven 2:43:48.320 --> 2:43:51.360 percent of their Patriot missiles, the UAE and Kuwait are 2:43:51.440 --> 2:43:54.600 up to seventy five percent, and Qatar is at like 2:43:54.760 --> 2:43:58.680 forty percent. Experts estimate that Iran has gone through or 2:43:58.760 --> 2:44:02.800 lost via airstrike roughly a third of their ballistic missile stockpile. 2:44:03.520 --> 2:44:06.840 This may or may not be accurate, and if it's inaccurate, 2:44:06.879 --> 2:44:09.440 it may or may not be inaccurate in either direction. 2:44:10.080 --> 2:44:13.760 Our intel and Israel's intel is often very spotty when 2:44:13.800 --> 2:44:16.520 it comes to stuff like this. A good illustration of 2:44:16.520 --> 2:44:19.199 this would be the fact that on March twentieth, Iran 2:44:19.280 --> 2:44:23.080 fired two ICBMs at Diego Garcia, an island in the 2:44:23.080 --> 2:44:26.240 Indian Ocean that hosts a joint US UK air and 2:44:26.360 --> 2:44:30.040 naval base. Neither missile did any damage, but that wasn't 2:44:30.080 --> 2:44:32.840 really the point. The launch of these missiles was a 2:44:32.920 --> 2:44:36.480 message from the Iranian regime to the US one. Previously, 2:44:36.680 --> 2:44:39.760 Iran had limited itself to only striking targets within twelve 2:44:39.840 --> 2:44:42.840 hundred and forty miles of its own borders with ballistic missiles. 2:44:43.120 --> 2:44:47.000 Diego Garcia is roughly twenty three hundred miles away. Many 2:44:47.160 --> 2:44:50.360 US analysts had treated for years twelve hundred and forty 2:44:50.360 --> 2:44:53.520 miles as if it represented an actual hard limit on 2:44:53.560 --> 2:44:57.120 Iran's striking capability based on what their missiles could reach, 2:44:57.280 --> 2:44:59.400 as opposed to what it really was, which is a 2:44:59.400 --> 2:45:02.560 political decision made by Iranian leaders to limit the scope 2:45:02.560 --> 2:45:06.800 of conflicts. When the Trump administration launched an unprovoked series 2:45:06.800 --> 2:45:09.520 of joint strikes on Iran, killing a supreme leader in 2:45:09.600 --> 2:45:13.480 many senior officials, we violated one of the unstated agreements 2:45:13.520 --> 2:45:17.039 that had held for over decades of conflict. The president's 2:45:17.080 --> 2:45:20.199 supporters and major hawks on Iran argued that these self 2:45:20.240 --> 2:45:23.920 imposed limits were allowing Iran's leadership to support terrorism abroad 2:45:24.000 --> 2:45:28.360 with impunity. The strike on Diego Garcia proved that military 2:45:28.400 --> 2:45:30.960 analysts had been wrong about the top range of Iran's 2:45:30.959 --> 2:45:33.720 best ballistic missiles, but it also served as a statement 2:45:33.879 --> 2:45:36.720 from Iran's new leaders. You've taken the gloves off and 2:45:36.760 --> 2:45:40.359 thrown out the rule book. Now we have two. Hudson 2:45:40.400 --> 2:45:44.320 Institute's senior fellow, Khan Kosopoglu, published an analysis that made 2:45:44.360 --> 2:45:45.879 this same basic argument. 2:45:46.080 --> 2:45:46.600 Quote. 2:45:46.680 --> 2:45:49.879 A strike profile extending into the Indian Ocean demonstrates not 2:45:50.000 --> 2:45:54.439 merely extended range, but Iran's deliberate abandonment of strategic ambiguity. 2:45:54.600 --> 2:45:57.560 Iran is no longer signaling restraint. It is signaling reach, 2:45:57.640 --> 2:46:01.320 and doing so under live war fighting conditions. It also 2:46:01.520 --> 2:46:05.760 more subtly signaled something else. US planners didn't know as 2:46:05.840 --> 2:46:09.000 much as they thought they did about Iran's capabilities. This 2:46:09.040 --> 2:46:12.119 has been evident since the war began, despite Trump's claims 2:46:12.120 --> 2:46:16.039 to have totally annihilated Iran's offensive capability. On March twenty seventh, 2:46:16.080 --> 2:46:18.920 a combined missile and drone attack at Prince Sultan Air 2:46:18.920 --> 2:46:22.480 Base in Saudi Arabia injuring more than ten US soldiers, 2:46:22.640 --> 2:46:27.080 too seriously in damaging several aircraft. One of these, which 2:46:27.120 --> 2:46:29.800 we have pictures of, was an E three a wax 2:46:30.000 --> 2:46:33.040 aka the planes with those huge radar dishes on top, 2:46:33.480 --> 2:46:36.280 and at least one a Wax was destroyed. The Air 2:46:36.280 --> 2:46:39.160 Force only has sixteen of these, and only about half 2:46:39.240 --> 2:46:42.440 our mission capable at any given time. The Army also 2:46:42.480 --> 2:46:44.959 maintains a fleet of E three's. I found an article 2:46:44.959 --> 2:46:47.520 in Air and Space Forces Magazine by Chris Gordon and 2:46:47.560 --> 2:46:50.680 Stephen Lassi, who interviewed Heather Penny. She's a former F 2:46:50.720 --> 2:46:53.440 sixteen pilot and current director of the Air Force Academy's 2:46:53.480 --> 2:46:57.760 Institute for Aerospace Studies. Penny said, quote, the loss of 2:46:57.760 --> 2:47:00.879 this E three is incredibly problematic and how crucial these 2:47:00.879 --> 2:47:05.880 battle managers are to everything from airspace deconfliction, aircraft deconfliction, targeting, 2:47:05.920 --> 2:47:08.640 and providing other lethal effects that the entire force needs 2:47:08.640 --> 2:47:13.280 for the battlespace. E threes provide an irreplaceable service on 2:47:13.360 --> 2:47:16.360 the battlefield. They act as both airborne radar stations and 2:47:16.440 --> 2:47:19.560 air traffic control towers, spotting threats up to two hundred 2:47:19.560 --> 2:47:22.640 and fifty miles away, and providing crucial early warning to 2:47:22.680 --> 2:47:28.080 forces in combat about incoming threats, particularly missiles and drones, drones, 2:47:28.080 --> 2:47:31.440 really about anything else. In other words, the E three 2:47:31.560 --> 2:47:34.680 is really really useful if you're say, planning to have 2:47:34.760 --> 2:47:37.680 troops land on islands in a narrow strait surrounded by 2:47:37.680 --> 2:47:41.200 hostile forces who can shoot at you from the mainland. Now, 2:47:41.320 --> 2:47:45.360 the A wax themselves aren't technically irreplaceable, but they aren't 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:49.119 easy to replace, especially on short notice. Each one costs 2:47:49.160 --> 2:47:51.640 between seven hundred million and a billion dollars, and we 2:47:51.680 --> 2:47:54.800 don't like, we don't like make them anymore. A wax 2:47:54.840 --> 2:47:57.800 are old. The average age of our remaining fleet is 2:47:57.920 --> 2:48:01.760 forty five per irrelevant article colin Task and Purpose magazine. 2:48:01.959 --> 2:48:04.720 Nobody makes spare parts for the E three's TF thirty 2:48:04.720 --> 2:48:07.600 three engines anymore, which takes a toll on maintenance. In 2:48:07.640 --> 2:48:10.000 twenty twenty two, General Mark Kelly, then the head of 2:48:10.040 --> 2:48:13.320 Air Combat Command, told reporters we basically have thirty one 2:48:13.360 --> 2:48:16.400 airplanes in hospice care, the most expensive care there is, 2:48:16.560 --> 2:48:18.760 and we need to get into the maternity business and 2:48:18.840 --> 2:48:22.480 out of hospices. That's a weird metaphor for a plane 2:48:22.520 --> 2:48:25.160 designed to help you fight wars, but we'll move past 2:48:25.200 --> 2:48:40.000 that and into some ads and we're back. So when 2:48:40.000 --> 2:48:42.400 we left off, I'd mentioned how in twenty twenty two, 2:48:42.440 --> 2:48:44.960 Mark Kelly, then the head of Air Combat Command, was like, 2:48:45.600 --> 2:48:47.920 we've only got about thirty one of these A wax 2:48:47.920 --> 2:48:49.880 and they're at hospice care, and we need to like 2:48:50.120 --> 2:48:53.440 make some new a wax that are modern and aren't 2:48:53.440 --> 2:48:57.879 falling apart, and have engines being produced. Unfortunately for our military, 2:48:57.959 --> 2:48:59.080 but fortunately for. 2:48:59.600 --> 2:49:00.640 Not our military. 2:49:00.959 --> 2:49:04.520 The Pentagon voted against getting into the maternity business last year. 2:49:05.040 --> 2:49:08.160 The E seven Wedgetail, which is in service currently in 2:49:08.200 --> 2:49:10.959 the Royal Australian Air Force, was meant to replace the 2:49:11.000 --> 2:49:13.440 E three's for the US Air Force, and the first 2:49:13.440 --> 2:49:15.760 of twenty six new craft were supposed to arrive from 2:49:15.800 --> 2:49:18.800 Boeing in twenty twenty seven, but the project was killed 2:49:18.879 --> 2:49:22.640 last summer. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth argued it was quote 2:49:22.800 --> 2:49:26.760 sort of late, more expensive and gold plated. Plus Pete 2:49:26.800 --> 2:49:30.320 warned it might not survive a war with China. Heg 2:49:30.400 --> 2:49:33.439 Seth's plan was to just have the military use satellites 2:49:33.480 --> 2:49:36.000 for all their airborne tracking needs, and if we had 2:49:36.040 --> 2:49:38.040 to have, you know, a plane doing some of that, 2:49:38.120 --> 2:49:40.920 we could just have Navy E two D Hawkeyes as 2:49:40.959 --> 2:49:44.280 a temporary replacement. Now, most of my listeners are not 2:49:44.360 --> 2:49:46.800 Air Force generals, and either of them I but I've 2:49:46.800 --> 2:49:50.360 read stuff guys who know that kind of thing have written, 2:49:50.480 --> 2:49:53.240 and I'll tell you this it's a bad fucking idea, 2:49:53.360 --> 2:49:55.720 or it's widely agreed by the experts to be a 2:49:55.760 --> 2:49:59.080 bad fucking idea. For one thing, the E seven, which 2:49:59.120 --> 2:50:01.320 is what we would have been replacing our E threes with, 2:50:01.480 --> 2:50:04.720 has already proven itself in combat. The AUSSI sent Theirs 2:50:04.760 --> 2:50:06.959 over to a rock during the fighting against ISIS, and 2:50:07.000 --> 2:50:09.640 per task and purpose it quote was so reliable that 2:50:09.680 --> 2:50:12.280 whenever American F twenty two fighters were in theater, the 2:50:12.360 --> 2:50:15.440 US Air Force asked the AUSSIS to support the US jets. 2:50:16.440 --> 2:50:19.600 Sixteen retired US Air Force four star generals took the 2:50:19.680 --> 2:50:22.560 unprecedented step of writing a letter to Congress and begging 2:50:22.640 --> 2:50:26.360 them to reverse Exseth's decision. They're reasoning why boils down 2:50:26.360 --> 2:50:30.120 to this, satellites aren't ready to track airborne targets, and 2:50:30.160 --> 2:50:33.840 the Hawkeye is too small for the job. Congress ultimately 2:50:33.879 --> 2:50:36.760 reversed course, but it's uncertain when, if ever new E 2:50:36.959 --> 2:50:40.280 seven's will arrive, certainly not in time for whatever the 2:50:40.280 --> 2:50:43.480 Trump administration is going to do next. In the meantime, 2:50:43.720 --> 2:50:46.920 the Air Force is down roughly ten percent or more 2:50:47.120 --> 2:50:50.040 of its functional fleet of a wax, and we don't 2:50:50.040 --> 2:50:53.080 even have boots on the ground anywhere. Now, what I 2:50:53.120 --> 2:50:55.640 think happened here, What I think is behind all of 2:50:55.640 --> 2:50:58.520 these bad decisions, and this is not something I can verify. 2:50:58.600 --> 2:51:01.760 This is opinion is that a waks aren't sexy. They're 2:51:01.800 --> 2:51:04.800 not like a cool weapon system. They don't kill people directly. 2:51:04.879 --> 2:51:09.440 They facilitate other soldiers and sailors and airmen from killing 2:51:09.720 --> 2:51:13.520 people using other weapons systems. But you can't threaten somebody 2:51:13.560 --> 2:51:16.320 with just an a whack. They're not like scary, and 2:51:16.440 --> 2:51:19.000 you can't show one blowing something up on the news 2:51:19.160 --> 2:51:21.240 because they don't do that. So I don't think it 2:51:21.280 --> 2:51:24.080 was a priority for Hegseth or anyone else in his administration, 2:51:24.440 --> 2:51:28.160 because they're all fucking twelve year olds. Previous administrations and 2:51:28.520 --> 2:51:30.560 let me be fair here, it's not like they were 2:51:30.600 --> 2:51:33.200 any more forward thinking. Had kind of looked at our 2:51:33.240 --> 2:51:35.879 aging fleet and said, eh, good enough, it's not like 2:51:35.879 --> 2:51:38.760 anyone we're fighting as a better alternative, Right, who cares. 2:51:39.760 --> 2:51:41.520 It's the same kind of story we just heard with 2:51:41.560 --> 2:51:45.040 the Tomawks. Right, what the military was already doing was 2:51:45.040 --> 2:51:47.080 good enough to scrape by in the conflicts it was 2:51:47.120 --> 2:51:50.480 already fighting, and nobody involved in starting the next conflict 2:51:50.760 --> 2:51:53.320 was interested in making sure that the military was prepared 2:51:53.360 --> 2:51:57.440 ahead of time. Now, I recognize all this talk about 2:51:57.440 --> 2:52:00.640 failures to produce war material in sufficient quantity may make 2:52:00.640 --> 2:52:03.040 it sound like I'm complaining that our air force isn't 2:52:03.080 --> 2:52:06.160 buying enough weaponry and that I'm urging us to spend 2:52:06.160 --> 2:52:08.440 more money producing arms and ammunitions, And that is not 2:52:08.560 --> 2:52:11.480 my intent. I want exactly the opposite. What I'm trying 2:52:11.520 --> 2:52:14.760 to do is to highlight how utterly unprepared our administration 2:52:15.040 --> 2:52:18.040 is for the conflict they started, and how that failure 2:52:18.080 --> 2:52:21.879 to prepare has made a major military disaster for US forces, 2:52:21.920 --> 2:52:26.360 not just foreseeable, but likely if the administration makes the 2:52:26.440 --> 2:52:29.280 decision to send in ground forces or in some other 2:52:29.360 --> 2:52:34.520 way significantly escalate the pace of our operations against Iran. Now, 2:52:34.560 --> 2:52:37.160 the mainstream media has done an okay job of reporting 2:52:37.160 --> 2:52:39.760 on the ammunition shortages that I've discussed, But what I 2:52:39.800 --> 2:52:41.720 don't think has been a hammered at home enough is 2:52:41.760 --> 2:52:45.120 that both are expenditure of advanced ammunitions and the loss 2:52:45.280 --> 2:52:49.000 of multiple aircraft due to Iranian strikes are a kind 2:52:49.000 --> 2:52:52.600 of attrition, and they are really serious kind of attrition. Now, 2:52:52.680 --> 2:52:54.600 you may be more familiar with a term attrition as 2:52:54.640 --> 2:52:57.320 it applies to human casualties in a war or battle, 2:52:57.720 --> 2:53:01.039 but to an extent, the attrition of interceptor missiles and 2:53:01.080 --> 2:53:04.160 hard to replace special purpose vehicles like a wax does 2:53:04.160 --> 2:53:06.720 a lot more to damage US war fighting capability than 2:53:06.800 --> 2:53:09.959 human losses. A good example of this came in March 2:53:10.040 --> 2:53:14.240 sixth of this year, after Ronstruck and PERCNN apparently destroyed 2:53:14.280 --> 2:53:17.279 the radar system for a THAD missile battery in Jordan. 2:53:17.920 --> 2:53:21.800 BAD stands for Terminal high Altitude Area Defense. These are 2:53:21.840 --> 2:53:26.320 our absolute best, most effective anti missile defense systems. Each 2:53:26.400 --> 2:53:29.240 battery costs more than a billion dollars, and each missile 2:53:29.240 --> 2:53:33.080 a fire costs like twelve point six million dollars. These 2:53:33.120 --> 2:53:36.360 are part of why you don't have healthcare. Now we 2:53:36.480 --> 2:53:39.400 know another series of strikes in the UAE quote hit 2:53:39.480 --> 2:53:43.280 buildings housing similar radar systems to the THAD battery in Jordan. 2:53:43.480 --> 2:53:46.400 It's unclear if these were damaged or how badly they 2:53:46.480 --> 2:53:49.080 might have been damaged, and it's going to remain unclear 2:53:49.120 --> 2:53:52.640 because the workings of these systems are extremely classified. As 2:53:52.640 --> 2:53:55.360 of twenty twenty five, the United States Z ownes and operates 2:53:55.400 --> 2:53:58.760 a grand total of eight THAD batteries, so at least 2:53:58.840 --> 2:54:01.800 one of eight is now out of commission and two 2:54:01.800 --> 2:54:05.520 more may have suffered some degree of damage A month 2:54:05.680 --> 2:54:08.320 into this conflict. That is not the kind of attrition 2:54:08.640 --> 2:54:11.360 you want to see prior to actually putting boots on 2:54:11.400 --> 2:54:15.560 the ground. Now, US military spokespeople will point out, whenever asked, 2:54:15.640 --> 2:54:18.160 that the vast majority of Iranian missiles and drones are 2:54:18.200 --> 2:54:21.000 being intercepted, and that Iran is currently firing few of 2:54:21.000 --> 2:54:23.440 these munitions than they did at the outbreak of hostilities. 2:54:23.760 --> 2:54:25.680 And what you're supposed to conclude from that is that 2:54:25.720 --> 2:54:28.480 they're running out because we are doing a better job 2:54:28.520 --> 2:54:31.440 of attritting them than they are doing of atreating us. 2:54:31.480 --> 2:54:35.320 And I can't tell you who's actually coming off worse 2:54:35.320 --> 2:54:38.680 in this fight. I certainly don't have good insight into 2:54:38.680 --> 2:54:41.920 the levels of Iran stockpiles of the weapons systems that 2:54:42.000 --> 2:54:45.160 they're using. However, there is reason to doubt that the 2:54:45.280 --> 2:54:47.800 United States is coming off the better in this conflict. 2:54:48.240 --> 2:54:50.959 Ari Cicirel is an analyst for the Jewish Institute for 2:54:51.040 --> 2:54:54.199 National Security of America or JENSA, and he told Fox 2:54:54.240 --> 2:54:57.520 News quote, overall high missile and drone interception rates have 2:54:57.520 --> 2:54:59.760 been important, but only tell part of the story. A 2:55:00.000 --> 2:55:01.879 On came into this war with a deliberate plan to 2:55:01.879 --> 2:55:05.320 dismantle the architecture that makes those strikes possible. It has 2:55:05.360 --> 2:55:08.920 struck energy infrastructure to upset markets and used cluster munitions 2:55:08.959 --> 2:55:12.879 to achieve higher hit rates. Because we simply lack good 2:55:12.959 --> 2:55:15.800 data on this stuff, I can't tell you perfectly how 2:55:15.800 --> 2:55:18.039 our rate of interceptions has changed from day one to 2:55:18.080 --> 2:55:20.480 day thirty, but there is evidence in a few different 2:55:20.480 --> 2:55:23.720 places that in late March, the rate of successful drone 2:55:23.720 --> 2:55:26.640 attacks on our regional allies like the UAE increased. In 2:55:26.640 --> 2:55:30.160 other words, more drones were getting through or being launched. 2:55:30.160 --> 2:55:33.359 But I think getting through is the more supported conclusion, 2:55:33.640 --> 2:55:36.480 and they're getting through because our defenses have gotten or 2:55:36.560 --> 2:55:40.000 the defenses of our allies have gotten less effective. The 2:55:40.080 --> 2:55:43.480 Genser report also notes that Israeli officials have stopped intercepting 2:55:43.560 --> 2:55:47.359 some cluster munition attacks in order to preserve ammunition, basically 2:55:47.680 --> 2:55:51.080 not shooting down the cluster munitions that don't look like 2:55:51.120 --> 2:55:54.199 they're going to hit anything or anyone, because they don't 2:55:54.200 --> 2:55:57.320 have the ammunition to stop everything. Now, I don't doubt 2:55:57.360 --> 2:56:00.480 that iron is also feeling somewhat pinched, and the munition department. 2:56:00.480 --> 2:56:02.800 It would be kind of weird if they weren't both 2:56:02.840 --> 2:56:04.640 due to how many they fired and how many have 2:56:04.640 --> 2:56:07.280 been destroyed via air strikes. But the question isn't are 2:56:07.280 --> 2:56:10.600 they suffering attrition too? It's are they better able to 2:56:10.600 --> 2:56:13.040 maintain the rate of attrition they're suffering than we are? 2:56:13.360 --> 2:56:15.840 And while I can't answer that question in absolute terms, 2:56:16.400 --> 2:56:20.280 I think the answer is probably yes. Iran's ballistic missiles 2:56:20.440 --> 2:56:24.400 generally cost a few hundred thousand dollars each that interceptor 2:56:24.440 --> 2:56:28.080 missiles cost, as I said, around thirteen million dollars. Shaheed 2:56:28.160 --> 2:56:31.200 drones cost like thirty thousand dollars to make and are 2:56:31.240 --> 2:56:34.200 often stopped by munitions that cost millions to make and 2:56:34.280 --> 2:56:37.200 are hard to replace. It's also worth noting that the 2:56:37.280 --> 2:56:39.800 reduction in the total number of missiles fired by Iran 2:56:40.240 --> 2:56:42.880 is not just due to the fact that they run 2:56:42.920 --> 2:56:46.080 through some of their stockpileots at least partly a strategic decision, 2:56:46.360 --> 2:56:49.680 as even Fox News admits quote. Iran has adapted its 2:56:49.720 --> 2:56:53.280 tactics accordingly, shifting from large barrages to smaller, more frequent 2:56:53.320 --> 2:56:57.800 attacks designed to maintain constant pressure. While gradually draining defensive resources. 2:56:57.959 --> 2:57:01.040 These persistent salvos, even if limited in so, force defenders 2:57:01.040 --> 2:57:04.760 to remain on high alert and continue expending interceptors, accelerating 2:57:04.760 --> 2:57:08.879 the depletion of already finite stockpiles. Now, there's an important 2:57:08.879 --> 2:57:12.480 point made towards the end of that paragraph. Persistent attacks 2:57:12.600 --> 2:57:16.080 forced defenders to remain on high alert. This is true, 2:57:16.360 --> 2:57:20.240 and it also brings us to another underdiscussed aspect of attrition, 2:57:20.800 --> 2:57:24.720 the energy and time of the soldiers our administration expects 2:57:24.720 --> 2:57:27.360 to fight this war for them, And we'll talk about 2:57:27.400 --> 2:57:47.280 that after another brace of ads. 2:57:40.400 --> 2:57:41.080 And we're back. 2:57:42.000 --> 2:57:44.520 Too often, people who want to wargame out how the 2:57:44.640 --> 2:57:47.440 US will perform in a given conflict just focus on 2:57:47.480 --> 2:57:51.240 the theoretical capabilities of the vehicles and weapons systems we own. 2:57:51.560 --> 2:57:54.160 And in its class aircraft carrier has this many planes 2:57:54.160 --> 2:57:56.360 and so it can unleash this amount of firepower on 2:57:56.400 --> 2:57:58.560 a target and this amount of time. And that's a 2:57:58.600 --> 2:58:02.040 bad way to predict combat performance because it ignores the 2:58:02.120 --> 2:58:06.200 human element. The USS Gerald R Ford a Gerald R 2:58:06.240 --> 2:58:10.520 Ford class aircraft carrier is what's commonly known as a supercarrier. 2:58:10.760 --> 2:58:13.360 It can travel for twenty five years before its nuclear 2:58:13.360 --> 2:58:15.680 reactors need refueling, and it has a complement of more 2:58:15.680 --> 2:58:17.880 than forty five hundred men and women. It is a 2:58:18.000 --> 2:58:20.720 small city at sea, and I've talked in the past 2:58:20.760 --> 2:58:23.840 about how hard these things are to actually sink. During 2:58:23.879 --> 2:58:26.320 the Ford's deployment to fight the Hoothies, there were viral 2:58:26.440 --> 2:58:30.320 rumors stoked by AIMS information that it had been seriously 2:58:30.440 --> 2:58:33.840 damaged or even destroyed by a Hoothy ballistic missile strike. 2:58:34.240 --> 2:58:36.720 Now I pointed out at the time that this was fanciful. 2:58:36.959 --> 2:58:39.640 The defense systems on a boat like this cost billions 2:58:39.680 --> 2:58:43.879 and provide excellent, proven protection against most missiles, drones, and aircraft. 2:58:43.959 --> 2:58:47.440 It's likely to encounter. The entire naval battlegroup it travels 2:58:47.520 --> 2:58:51.400 with exists to protect and enhance the carrier's capabilities, and 2:58:51.480 --> 2:58:53.440 even if it were stripped of all those things, these 2:58:53.440 --> 2:58:56.640 boats are just so damn tough to fucking sink. In 2:58:56.680 --> 2:58:58.959 two thousand and five, the US Navy conducted a live 2:58:59.040 --> 2:59:02.600 fire test to sink retired Kitty Hawk class supercarrier. Per 2:59:02.640 --> 2:59:05.360 an article in Forbes, the carrier endured nearly a month 2:59:05.400 --> 2:59:08.640 of intense weaponized testing and was finally scuttled via internal 2:59:08.680 --> 2:59:11.360 explosive charges. It should be added that the warship had 2:59:11.400 --> 2:59:13.760 been decommissioned nearly a decade earlier and was in poor 2:59:13.840 --> 2:59:17.000 material condition. There were also no damage control efforts to 2:59:17.040 --> 2:59:20.840 save the ship. In February of this year, just days 2:59:20.879 --> 2:59:24.280 before his own death, Iran's former Supreme Leader Iatola ali 2:59:24.360 --> 2:59:28.000 Hameni threatened the US carriers operating in the Persian Gulf 2:59:28.040 --> 2:59:31.560 in a post on Twitter because it's fucking twenty twenty 2:59:31.600 --> 2:59:35.240 six quote the Americans constantly say that they've sent a 2:59:35.240 --> 2:59:37.920 warship towards Iran. Of course, a warship is a dangerous 2:59:37.920 --> 2:59:41.240 piece of military hardware. However, more dangerous than that warship 2:59:41.280 --> 2:59:43.879 is the weapon that can send that warship to the bottom. 2:59:43.560 --> 2:59:44.080 Of the sea. 2:59:45.160 --> 2:59:47.720 Now kind of unclear exactly what he was talking about. 2:59:47.800 --> 2:59:50.119 Maybe it's some sort of secret weapon that the Iranians 2:59:50.160 --> 2:59:52.200 have that we don't know about, But we do know 2:59:52.240 --> 2:59:55.240 that Iranian negotiators are currently talking with the People's Republic 2:59:55.240 --> 2:59:59.039 of China about purchasing CM three H two supersonic missiles. 2:59:59.320 --> 3:00:02.120 These were developed by Chinese military planners to fly low 3:00:02.160 --> 3:00:04.920 and fast, avoiding most of the layered defenses a boat 3:00:05.080 --> 3:00:08.320 like the Ford and joys their carrier killer missiles, or 3:00:08.360 --> 3:00:11.640 at least that's the idea. Beijing also has a line 3:00:11.680 --> 3:00:15.000 of land based carrier killer missiles, because if you think 3:00:15.040 --> 3:00:17.279 you might wind up in a war with the United States, 3:00:17.360 --> 3:00:20.119 it probably booves you to think about how you would 3:00:20.200 --> 3:00:24.280 kill an aircraft carrier. Now, again, Iran doesn't have any 3:00:24.320 --> 3:00:27.920 of these weapons systems yet, at least not to our knowledge. 3:00:28.360 --> 3:00:31.119 But this war of choice by the United States didn't 3:00:31.120 --> 3:00:34.400 come as a complete surprise. The Iranian military and the 3:00:34.400 --> 3:00:37.800 Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps have been preparing to fight this 3:00:37.879 --> 3:00:41.280 war for quite some time. Those preparations have included the 3:00:41.280 --> 3:00:44.959 construction of multiple fake aircraft carriers, which their forces have 3:00:45.040 --> 3:00:48.640 sunk in a variety of wargames exercises. The most recent 3:00:48.680 --> 3:00:52.640 of these occurred in twenty twenty. The Prophet Muhammed fourteen 3:00:52.760 --> 3:00:55.040 exercise was meant to prepare for an attack on a 3:00:55.080 --> 3:00:58.360 Nimitz class carrier, and ironically, Iran made it too easy 3:00:58.400 --> 3:01:00.400 to sink, which caused it to go down while it 3:01:00.440 --> 3:01:03.560 was being towed in an inconvenient location that temporarily blocked 3:01:03.600 --> 3:01:05.920 a canal. And that should act as a warning that 3:01:06.320 --> 3:01:09.840 just as American military planners and analysts fuck up constantly, 3:01:10.120 --> 3:01:13.279 so two to their Iranian counterparts, and we shouldn't assume 3:01:13.360 --> 3:01:16.000 our guys are a bunch of hegseth looking chuckle fucks. 3:01:16.080 --> 3:01:19.959 While Iran's Pentagon equivalent is staffed entirely by hard eyed professionals. 3:01:20.440 --> 3:01:23.959 Every military has dipshit officers and has to deal with 3:01:24.080 --> 3:01:26.960 bad calls made by people with political power that function 3:01:27.160 --> 3:01:30.040 up for everyone. What you should take from this, though, 3:01:30.120 --> 3:01:32.840 is that Iran is a country with a large, comparatively 3:01:32.920 --> 3:01:37.320 well funded and prepared military. They regularly invent and sell 3:01:37.360 --> 3:01:40.360 weapons systems that are utilized around the world, and they've 3:01:40.360 --> 3:01:44.000 been obsessively planning to kill an aircraft carrier for years 3:01:44.440 --> 3:01:46.080 and now that doesn't mean they're going to sink one. 3:01:46.160 --> 3:01:48.720 In fact, I still think that's pretty close to impossible, 3:01:48.720 --> 3:01:51.440 at least with the technology we know they have. But 3:01:51.520 --> 3:01:54.519 they don't need to sink one to render it inoperable. 3:01:55.040 --> 3:01:57.160 Just hitting the top of it could be enough to 3:01:57.200 --> 3:01:59.879 do serious damage that would render it combat and capable 3:02:00.120 --> 3:02:02.280 for an extended period of time. And to back me 3:02:02.360 --> 3:02:05.320 up on that point, a few weeks ago, while it 3:02:05.440 --> 3:02:09.160 was actively engaged in combat operations against Iranian forces, a 3:02:09.200 --> 3:02:12.640 fire started on board the Jerry Ford. It began in 3:02:12.720 --> 3:02:15.680 the laundry room, or at least in an area related 3:02:15.760 --> 3:02:18.800 to the vast laundry system that a vehicle like this 3:02:19.040 --> 3:02:23.359 has kind of a little unclear exactly what happened. According 3:02:23.400 --> 3:02:25.560 to the New York Times, though the fire alone took 3:02:25.760 --> 3:02:29.760 thirty hours to put out. Now, the Navy disputes this, 3:02:30.360 --> 3:02:32.520 that the ship was burning for more than a day, 3:02:33.040 --> 3:02:35.959 but they provided no reason anyone should actually trust them. 3:02:35.959 --> 3:02:39.080 Here I found an article published in the National Interest 3:02:39.120 --> 3:02:42.680 by Peter Soussio. He writes that quote the fire caused 3:02:42.680 --> 3:02:45.560 far greater damage than was initially reported, with one sailor 3:02:45.640 --> 3:02:48.600 medically evacuated from the ship and two hundred more treated 3:02:48.640 --> 3:02:52.000 for smoke inhalation. I'm not surprised that the Navy wanted 3:02:52.000 --> 3:02:54.280 to hide the extent of the damage its biggest warship 3:02:54.360 --> 3:02:57.440 suffered due to a laundry fire. But this reinforces how 3:02:57.560 --> 3:03:00.960 unreliable the Navy is as an ongoing source in these matters. 3:03:01.280 --> 3:03:05.240 Soussio notes, quote, there remained conflicting accounts of the fire 3:03:05.280 --> 3:03:08.199 in the media, and the Pentagon seemingly attempted to downplay 3:03:08.200 --> 3:03:10.840 the severity of the fire in the immediate aftermath, leading 3:03:10.840 --> 3:03:14.520 to later confusion. What we do know is that the Ford, 3:03:14.680 --> 3:03:17.400 a small city on the sea, lost all ability to 3:03:17.480 --> 3:03:21.200 launder clothing, betting, and anything else. This caused an immediate 3:03:21.280 --> 3:03:24.520 hygiene issue aboard and a logistic nightmare for the Navy, 3:03:24.760 --> 3:03:27.959 which had to fly in clean clothing at terrific expense. 3:03:28.520 --> 3:03:31.080 Saying a supercarrier was taken out of commission by a 3:03:31.200 --> 3:03:34.440 laundry fire sounds silly, but you can't keep a town 3:03:34.520 --> 3:03:37.640 of forty five hundred people going if no one can 3:03:37.680 --> 3:03:41.160 do the laundry. The fire seems to have also done 3:03:41.240 --> 3:03:44.480 extensive damage to crew living quarters, which forced a thousand 3:03:44.520 --> 3:03:47.280 mattresses to be flown in while the crew slept. Well, 3:03:47.840 --> 3:03:50.640 wherever they were sleeping, it wasn't in their bunks. Now 3:03:50.640 --> 3:03:53.480 we don't know how the fire started again, but unconfirmed 3:03:53.520 --> 3:03:57.920 reports have blamed sabotage by members of the Gerald Ford's crew. 3:03:58.720 --> 3:04:00.440 I can't tell you if this is true were not, 3:04:00.640 --> 3:04:02.720 but if it is, it would not be the first 3:04:02.720 --> 3:04:06.480 time something like this happened. In twenty twelve, a civilian 3:04:06.560 --> 3:04:09.840 contractor started a fire aboard the USS Miami and attacked 3:04:09.879 --> 3:04:13.240 submarine because he wanted to leave work early. The fire 3:04:13.320 --> 3:04:15.640 cost four hundred million dollars in damage and led to 3:04:15.640 --> 3:04:19.080 the vessel being decommissioned. Two years later, the contractor was 3:04:19.120 --> 3:04:23.400 sentenced to seventeen years in prison. Nabal sabotage was an 3:04:23.400 --> 3:04:25.880 even bigger business during the latter stages of the war 3:04:25.920 --> 3:04:29.560 in Vietnam. In December of nineteen seventy two, Jeffrey Allison, 3:04:29.640 --> 3:04:32.160 a nineteen year old sailor from Oakland, was sentenced to 3:04:32.200 --> 3:04:34.480 five years in prison for lighting a fire aboard an 3:04:34.480 --> 3:04:38.840 aircraft carrier, the USS Forestall that same year, a sailor 3:04:38.879 --> 3:04:42.520 aboard the USS Ranger, another supercarrier, delayed its deployment to 3:04:42.560 --> 3:04:45.360 the Pacific by three months by allegedly sticking a paint 3:04:45.400 --> 3:04:49.080 scraper in the main reduction gear, which disabled an engine. 3:04:49.280 --> 3:04:52.279 Per an article in the Alameda Post, the Navy's official 3:04:52.360 --> 3:04:55.120 history of the Ranger confirms that sabotage was becoming more 3:04:55.160 --> 3:04:59.160 popular as the war in Vietnam became more unpopular. Sabotage 3:04:59.280 --> 3:05:03.039 happens every all day. A crewman serving aboard another carrier 3:05:03.080 --> 3:05:07.160 based in Alameda, the Oriskany, was quoted as saying, now 3:05:07.160 --> 3:05:10.360 these sailors, the folks sabotaging their own warships in the 3:05:10.400 --> 3:05:12.879 later stages of the Vietnam War were part of the 3:05:12.920 --> 3:05:16.959 so called SOS movement, a protest campaign launched and sustained 3:05:17.080 --> 3:05:20.000 entirely by sailors angry at being forced to participate in 3:05:20.040 --> 3:05:23.119 the war against Vietnam. The movement gained its name from 3:05:23.120 --> 3:05:26.080 an active protest in nineteen seventy one, when forty sailors 3:05:26.120 --> 3:05:28.520 stood on the flight deck of their returning aircraft carrier 3:05:28.560 --> 3:05:32.920 and spelled out SOS with their bodies again. I don't 3:05:32.959 --> 3:05:36.119 know if sabotage caused the fire on the Gerald Ford, 3:05:36.160 --> 3:05:38.280 and neither it is anyone else, but there are good 3:05:38.360 --> 3:05:41.600 reasons to believe it did. As Senator Mark Warner, vice 3:05:41.720 --> 3:05:44.320 chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in late March, 3:05:44.520 --> 3:05:46.320 the Ford and its crew have been pushed to the 3:05:46.320 --> 3:05:50.040 brink after nearly a year at sea normal deployment for 3:05:50.120 --> 3:05:53.280 sailors on before it is like six months. Come April, 3:05:53.360 --> 3:05:56.039 it will break the record for the longest post Vietnam 3:05:56.120 --> 3:05:59.720 carrier deployment two hundred and ninety four days. Crew members 3:05:59.760 --> 3:06:02.440 have been told their deployment will likely be extended to May, 3:06:02.640 --> 3:06:04.400 at which point they'll have been at sea for an 3:06:04.520 --> 3:06:05.240 entire year. 3:06:05.920 --> 3:06:06.120 Now. 3:06:06.120 --> 3:06:08.680 I don't want to really expect anyone to pour out 3:06:08.680 --> 3:06:11.039 their sympathy for sailors on a warship that has helped 3:06:11.040 --> 3:06:13.440 to kill a minimum of fifteen hundred Iranians so far, 3:06:13.520 --> 3:06:16.280 including two hundred children. But you don't need to feel 3:06:16.320 --> 3:06:18.520 bad for all the lost birthdays and weddings and missed 3:06:18.520 --> 3:06:22.080 funerals to understand the deleterious effect that this has on morale. 3:06:22.520 --> 3:06:26.000 Fighting spirit has adjust a buzzword. When soldiers are exhausted 3:06:26.040 --> 3:06:28.560 and pissed off, they're likely to fuck things up. And 3:06:28.600 --> 3:06:31.920 I'm not just talking about grand acts of sabotage when 3:06:31.920 --> 3:06:34.320 it was still off the coast of Venezuela earlier. In 3:06:34.360 --> 3:06:37.720 this deployment, the Ford suffered massive recurrent issues with its 3:06:37.720 --> 3:06:40.240 plumbing system, which was ripped off a design used in 3:06:40.280 --> 3:06:43.840 cruise ships and works very badly. I can't exaggerate how 3:06:43.920 --> 3:06:46.440 bad the sewage systems on the Ford work. They are 3:06:46.480 --> 3:06:50.720 broken fucking constantly, and per the Alameda Post, some crew 3:06:50.720 --> 3:06:54.360 members may be intentionally exacerbating problems with defective toilets aboard 3:06:54.360 --> 3:06:56.879 the ship by flushing t shirts and other objects, as 3:06:56.920 --> 3:06:59.760 documented in an email from the ship's engineering department, obtained 3:06:59.760 --> 3:07:03.320 by ebr our sewage system is being mistreated and destroyed 3:07:03.320 --> 3:07:06.240 by sailors on a daily basis. That March twenty twenty 3:07:06.240 --> 3:07:09.320 five email stated, my whole maintenance technicians are currently working 3:07:09.400 --> 3:07:11.360 nineteen hours a day right now to keep up with 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:15.200 the demand. It's a lot of flushed shirts. Now, what 3:07:15.240 --> 3:07:17.720 I'm building to is that there's a perfectly good chance 3:07:17.760 --> 3:07:20.119 this fire didn't even start as an act of sabotage, 3:07:20.360 --> 3:07:24.000 but because somebody fucked up, maybe because they were exhausted, 3:07:24.240 --> 3:07:26.800 maybe because they've just been running the machines too long. 3:07:26.840 --> 3:07:29.920 The laundry is always going all this thing's underway, and 3:07:30.000 --> 3:07:32.400 if it's going for months longer, the normal shit like 3:07:32.480 --> 3:07:34.640 lint is going to build up. In fact, I want 3:07:34.680 --> 3:07:36.840 to read a quote from that article in the National Interest. 3:07:37.360 --> 3:07:39.680 If the ducks haven't been cleaned out properly, it is 3:07:39.760 --> 3:07:43.120 easy for small lint particles to catch fire, potentially leading 3:07:43.120 --> 3:07:45.960 to a larger blaze, not unlike a house fire caused 3:07:46.000 --> 3:07:50.199 by lint build up. So again, this fire was certainly 3:07:50.200 --> 3:07:53.040 not enough to sink the gerald Ford. It didn't destroy it, 3:07:53.360 --> 3:07:56.280 but it did enough damage that it became combat and 3:07:56.360 --> 3:08:00.560 effective or at least you could argue that's the case. 3:08:00.920 --> 3:08:03.920 You know, obviously we replace it with a different carrier group. 3:08:04.200 --> 3:08:07.400 There's not just not a carrier now, but the ford 3:08:07.600 --> 3:08:11.040 was not originally scheduled to leave, and left as a 3:08:11.080 --> 3:08:14.840 result of the fire in order to undergo repairs. That 3:08:14.920 --> 3:08:17.920 gets it something very important, very relevant to the question 3:08:17.959 --> 3:08:21.080 of how a higher intensity war, one involving ground troops 3:08:21.080 --> 3:08:23.920 against Iran would go, because while Iran may or may 3:08:23.959 --> 3:08:25.920 not be able to sync a carrier, they certainly have 3:08:26.000 --> 3:08:28.880 the tools to potentially hit one, starting a fire or 3:08:28.920 --> 3:08:32.360 just damaging the deck badly enough to render it combat ineffective. 3:08:33.160 --> 3:08:36.400 And if these deployment cycles keep getting extended, if sailors 3:08:36.400 --> 3:08:38.920 are kept at a high operational tempo for days or 3:08:38.959 --> 3:08:42.119 weeks or months at a time, people will start fucking up. 3:08:42.200 --> 3:08:44.360 And some of those fuck ups have a chance, as 3:08:44.360 --> 3:08:48.480 we've already seen, to remove the ship from being combat capable, 3:08:48.560 --> 3:08:51.400 or to remove other ships from being combat capable. 3:08:51.760 --> 3:08:52.640 If you're talking from. 3:08:52.600 --> 3:08:55.840 Perspective US marines trying to hold onto an island surrounded 3:08:55.879 --> 3:08:59.480 by enemies, this is a really scary thing. The fact 3:08:59.480 --> 3:09:02.760 that your source of air support might not be able 3:09:02.800 --> 3:09:06.000 to function because somebody fucks up or sabotages it, there's 3:09:06.040 --> 3:09:09.520 a fire, it gets hit. You know, these boats are 3:09:09.560 --> 3:09:12.360 not sinkable, but in certain ways they're a lot more 3:09:12.440 --> 3:09:15.640 fragile than people are used to thinking of them as being. 3:09:16.000 --> 3:09:19.000 Aircraft carriers have been gods of the sea for so long. 3:09:19.560 --> 3:09:22.040 I think it really is something people ought to pay 3:09:22.080 --> 3:09:25.760 attention to. The fact that this simple laundry fire took 3:09:25.840 --> 3:09:30.039 the Jerry Ford out of the theater matters. The longer 3:09:30.040 --> 3:09:31.840 the US keeps fighting, and the longer we keep our 3:09:31.840 --> 3:09:35.400 ships deployed chasing Donald Trump's dreams, the higher the odds 3:09:35.440 --> 3:09:38.600 that something else goes wrong. Yet, whether it's just exhausted 3:09:38.640 --> 3:09:42.280 soldiers screwing up, angry sailors sabotaging things to protest an 3:09:42.360 --> 3:09:46.000 unpopular war, or a damned lucky shot, the Pentagon is 3:09:46.040 --> 3:09:49.720 continuing to roll those dice every day, and I guess 3:09:49.760 --> 3:09:52.039 we'll see what happens next. That's all I've got for 3:09:52.120 --> 3:09:55.960 you right now, everybody. Hopefully we're not invading the islands 3:09:55.959 --> 3:09:58.000 with ground troops by the time this episode comes out, 3:09:58.080 --> 3:09:58.640 but we might be. 3:10:14.280 --> 3:10:17.640 This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly 3:10:17.680 --> 3:10:20.680 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 3:10:20.680 --> 3:10:22.720 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today 3:10:22.720 --> 3:10:26.160 and joined by Mia Wong and James Stout. This episode, 3:10:26.200 --> 3:10:28.959 we are covering the week of March twenty fifth to 3:10:29.120 --> 3:10:30.439 April first. 3:10:30.600 --> 3:10:33.280 And so we're all gonna do silly things that aren't 3:10:33.320 --> 3:10:36.000 really news. No, we're not going to do it when 3:10:36.400 --> 3:10:37.840 I love it when outlets do that. 3:10:38.200 --> 3:10:40.520 This comes out Friday. This comes out Friday, it's over. 3:10:40.680 --> 3:10:41.320 It's done. 3:10:42.000 --> 3:10:44.720 Normal Fish of April Day. For all those French people 3:10:44.720 --> 3:10:45.800 out there now. 3:10:45.840 --> 3:10:49.080 With the midterm elections rapidly approaching, I know everyone's going 3:10:49.160 --> 3:10:52.000 to get tired of election news, but there is some 3:10:52.160 --> 3:10:55.720 very impertant voting that needs to happen in these next 3:10:55.920 --> 3:11:01.000 few weeks because it could happen here. Show called Behind 3:11:01.000 --> 3:11:06.520 the Bastards and James's excellent series Migrating to America have 3:11:06.640 --> 3:11:11.840 been nominated for Webby Awards. You know the Emmys. Yeah, 3:11:11.879 --> 3:11:15.400 they're like those, except they're for the Internet. But they're 3:11:15.480 --> 3:11:17.000 just as serious. 3:11:17.400 --> 3:11:18.000 More serious. 3:11:18.000 --> 3:11:20.320 Some people are saying, the Internet's obviously is more real 3:11:20.360 --> 3:11:21.000 than television. 3:11:21.080 --> 3:11:22.520 No one watches TV anymore. 3:11:22.640 --> 3:11:26.240 Yeah, it's like the Emmy's people who want boom is people. 3:11:25.959 --> 3:11:29.760 Are saying, so this is This is obviously very exciting 3:11:30.280 --> 3:11:36.600 and voting lasts until April sixteenth. There will be links 3:11:36.680 --> 3:11:41.720 in the show notes to vote for the three nominations 3:11:41.879 --> 3:11:45.120 that we have here at Coolson Media. Migrating to America 3:11:45.160 --> 3:11:51.199 is nominated for the Limited Series and Specials Podcast Documentary category. 3:11:51.680 --> 3:11:56.400 Find the Bastards is the podcast features for experimental and Innovation, 3:11:57.160 --> 3:12:00.520 and it Could Happen Here is also nominated under the 3:12:00.600 --> 3:12:04.880 Limited Series category under News and Politics. It's kind of 3:12:04.920 --> 3:12:08.359 confusing to navigate the website because there's just so many categories, 3:12:08.440 --> 3:12:11.200 but those three links will be there below and we 3:12:11.280 --> 3:12:13.840 will continue to be talking about what is arguably the 3:12:13.840 --> 3:12:17.440 most important election of our lifetimes in these next few weeks. 3:12:17.640 --> 3:12:21.480 Yeah, Pokemon, go to those links and vote for us. 3:12:21.920 --> 3:12:24.240 Even if you see that you know we might be ahead, 3:12:24.280 --> 3:12:27.160 stay in line, you cannot leave. We will not let 3:12:27.600 --> 3:12:31.720 trump Land by ms now come on steal our spot 3:12:31.840 --> 3:12:34.600 as number one. So stop the steal. Do not let 3:12:34.720 --> 3:12:39.400 trump Land win. Vote it could happen here April sixteenth, 3:12:39.480 --> 3:12:41.080 up until the sixteenth mm hmm. 3:12:41.840 --> 3:12:45.199 Very often vote early, ft off, vote with your spvery 3:12:45.280 --> 3:12:45.960 man address. 3:12:46.200 --> 3:12:49.000 Look, vote vote very, really, vote often. The great slogan 3:12:49.120 --> 3:12:51.600 of my of my home state of Illinois. 3:12:53.000 --> 3:12:57.040 Everyone take this liberal direct action very seriously. Let's start 3:12:57.040 --> 3:13:00.879 with some actual news. Getting serious here. Christy Nome's husband 3:13:00.959 --> 3:13:03.520 was outed as what I'm gonna call a sissy cross 3:13:03.600 --> 3:13:08.680 dresser with an interest in quote unquote bimbofication. Gnome as 3:13:08.720 --> 3:13:13.480 governor signed a joint state letter attacking trans writes there's 3:13:13.560 --> 3:13:18.000 so much gendered angst among these conservatives, projection, etc. 3:13:18.280 --> 3:13:18.680 Et cetera. 3:13:19.360 --> 3:13:23.280 Representatives for Nome released a statement after this news dropped, 3:13:23.360 --> 3:13:29.080 quote Missnome, which is interesting. Quote Missnome is devastated. The 3:13:29.120 --> 3:13:33.400 family was blindsided by this, and they ask for privacy 3:13:33.400 --> 3:13:34.560 and prayers at this time. 3:13:35.000 --> 3:13:35.440 Yeah cool. 3:13:35.520 --> 3:13:37.080 I think I think we need to we need to 3:13:37.160 --> 3:13:39.480 expand the right to arm bears to the right to 3:13:39.560 --> 3:13:42.640 arm dogs. This is my final statement on this matter. 3:13:43.680 --> 3:13:47.440 Yeah, it's not a great month for the Nomes after 3:13:47.520 --> 3:13:51.720 she joined this Shield of America's task force, which so 3:13:51.840 --> 3:13:53.840 far has existed for less than a month and already 3:13:53.840 --> 3:13:55.280 bombed the wrong country once. 3:13:56.360 --> 3:13:57.520 Jesus Christ. 3:13:58.160 --> 3:14:00.000 Yeah. 3:14:00.200 --> 3:14:04.480 In other important news, four hundred and thirteen thousand, seven 3:14:04.560 --> 3:14:09.400 hundred and ninety three KitKat bars were stolen in transit 3:14:09.520 --> 3:14:10.879 from Italy to Poland. 3:14:11.040 --> 3:14:14.040 Okay, when you get that statistic, is that four hundred 3:14:14.040 --> 3:14:16.680 and thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety three four finger 3:14:16.760 --> 3:14:21.320 bars or is that one hundred thousand and you're counting 3:14:21.360 --> 3:14:22.840 each finger separately. 3:14:23.400 --> 3:14:26.560 No, it's each packaged bar, including some of the new 3:14:26.640 --> 3:14:29.840 limited edition Formula one and Chunky bars. 3:14:30.400 --> 3:14:32.280 Oh that's been a thing in the UK for like 3:14:32.360 --> 3:14:34.640 twenty years, KitKat. 3:14:34.800 --> 3:14:37.360 This is a new version. This is a new version, 3:14:37.440 --> 3:14:40.160 according to a press release from KitKat. Okay, So if 3:14:40.160 --> 3:14:42.120 you want to argue with KitKat. 3:14:42.040 --> 3:14:45.400 I think what you're seeing is is called cool Britannia. 3:14:45.480 --> 3:14:48.119 It's a phenomenon by which British culture is slowly taken 3:14:48.120 --> 3:14:48.760 over the world. 3:14:50.640 --> 3:14:55.160 This is twelve tons of KitKat bars that were stolen. 3:14:55.520 --> 3:14:59.280 Their whereabouts are currently unknown. An on duty Secret Service 3:14:59.320 --> 3:15:02.480 agent assigned to Biden shot himself while at the Philadelphia 3:15:02.520 --> 3:15:05.400 airport last week. Look, the lines are bad, but come on, 3:15:05.600 --> 3:15:09.800 it's not that bad. This was a negligick discharge while 3:15:09.800 --> 3:15:12.120 the agent was traveling through the airport in an unmarked car. 3:15:12.360 --> 3:15:13.800 Jill Biden was not in the immediate area at the 3:15:13.840 --> 3:15:14.520 time of the shooting. 3:15:15.440 --> 3:15:19.720 Last weekend, Trump signed an executive order to start paying 3:15:19.800 --> 3:15:23.400 TSA agents. As the Senate and House failed to agree 3:15:23.400 --> 3:15:26.600 on a DHS funding bill, Congress has adjourned for two 3:15:26.680 --> 3:15:29.800 weeks as the shutdown continues to set new records for 3:15:29.879 --> 3:15:34.520 the longest in any federal agency's history. Quick update here, 3:15:35.000 --> 3:15:38.920 literally as we were recording, House Republicans caved and agreed 3:15:39.000 --> 3:15:43.760 to the Senate bill to fund DHS except for ICE 3:15:43.879 --> 3:15:47.680 and CBP, which Republicans will be trying to fund later 3:15:48.120 --> 3:15:52.120 in a reconciliation bill. But as of Wednesday afternoon, it 3:15:52.160 --> 3:15:55.520 looks like Congress has finally reached a funding package for 3:15:55.560 --> 3:15:59.840 the rest of DHS. Politico has reported that acting ICE 3:16:00.000 --> 3:16:04.039 director Todd Lyons has been hospitalized at least twice for 3:16:04.280 --> 3:16:07.920 stress related issues. Oh my god, while working to implement 3:16:08.000 --> 3:16:09.880 Trump's immigration policy. 3:16:11.760 --> 3:16:14.720 I think it's specifically like because they're shouting him for 3:16:14.760 --> 3:16:16.279 not hitting the targets. 3:16:15.879 --> 3:16:19.960 Right, because Stephen Miller has been calling lions yelling at him, 3:16:20.000 --> 3:16:22.439 quote unquote, yelling about not hitting. 3:16:22.200 --> 3:16:23.279 Certain immigration targets. 3:16:23.320 --> 3:16:27.240 Yes, and Trump has yet to endorse, still still yet 3:16:27.240 --> 3:16:29.520 to endorse anyone in the Texas run off. Between John 3:16:29.560 --> 3:16:33.120 Cornyn and Ken Paxton. Early reports indicated Trump would back 3:16:33.200 --> 3:16:36.840 corn In the incumbent, but recently Paxton has been seen 3:16:36.959 --> 3:16:39.959 meeting with Trump at Mora Lago and what have been 3:16:40.000 --> 3:16:42.199 reported as quote unquote positive meetings. 3:16:42.800 --> 3:16:46.000 A Russian oil tanker has dogged in Cuba after the 3:16:46.080 --> 3:16:48.879 United States allowed it to break the blockade on the island. 3:16:49.120 --> 3:16:51.560 As we reported last week, it's been a massive shortage 3:16:51.840 --> 3:16:54.760 of oil in Cuba. This will alleviate that slightly. 3:16:55.000 --> 3:16:55.720 Yeah. 3:16:55.800 --> 3:16:59.600 A US marine, probably former US marine now if not 3:16:59.720 --> 3:17:02.440 very shortly to be former US marine, has been charged 3:17:02.520 --> 3:17:06.320 with federal offensive after allegedly selling millions of rounds of ammunition, 3:17:06.480 --> 3:17:12.000 including one which isn't normally available for civilian purchase, and 3:17:12.520 --> 3:17:20.039 javelins in Arizona. Javelin, yeah, yeah, just for those those 3:17:20.080 --> 3:17:21.959 who are not familiar javelin, I'm not talking about like 3:17:22.000 --> 3:17:25.560 a spear here, I'm talking about a guided anti tank missile. 3:17:26.000 --> 3:17:26.840 Oh shit. 3:17:27.879 --> 3:17:31.760 Yeah. Who was he trying to sell it to? 3:17:32.879 --> 3:17:36.600 So he selled them to two people who acted as brokers, 3:17:36.959 --> 3:17:40.000 are two unindicted co conspirators, and then they sold them 3:17:40.040 --> 3:17:42.880 to other people and an undercover agent was able to 3:17:42.959 --> 3:17:47.119 purchase some of The ammunition guy's name is Andrew paul 3:17:47.120 --> 3:17:50.280 A Marius. He was indicted by grand jury this week. 3:17:50.800 --> 3:17:53.840 He was an ammunition tech at Pendleton, but he brought 3:17:53.879 --> 3:17:58.039 them to Arizona to sell. And at this time about 3:17:58.040 --> 3:18:03.200 two million rounds are are not recovered. Great, it's not 3:18:03.280 --> 3:18:06.080 clear if they are still javelins in circulation. Basically what 3:18:06.520 --> 3:18:08.040 they don't know where the javelins are. 3:18:08.879 --> 3:18:09.720 They lost. 3:18:10.400 --> 3:18:13.840 They recovered a javelin, they don't know if they recovered all. 3:18:13.720 --> 3:18:18.400 The java So potentially there are just anti tank rockets 3:18:18.440 --> 3:18:18.920 out there. 3:18:19.360 --> 3:18:22.320 Wait a minute, Wait a minute, they're with the Kitkats. 3:18:22.400 --> 3:18:24.040 That's it's a joint operation. 3:18:25.160 --> 3:18:28.000 Maybe that's how they stop that large Kitcat truck they hit, 3:18:28.160 --> 3:18:32.200 hit the vehicle with javelt in the Yeah, it's one 3:18:32.200 --> 3:18:34.400 of those growth operations. You know, you get one javelin, 3:18:34.760 --> 3:18:38.360 you strike a KitKat vehicle, you sell the Kitcats. Now 3:18:38.400 --> 3:18:41.640 you got two javelins. You hit the mars bar vehicle. Right, 3:18:41.720 --> 3:18:43.080 this is capitalism in action. 3:18:43.400 --> 3:18:43.640 Hmm. 3:18:44.600 --> 3:18:47.640 And then let's let's return to Arizona where normal things happen. 3:18:48.040 --> 3:18:51.760 Also in Arizona, a grand jury has indicted a man 3:18:52.480 --> 3:18:56.920 for material support for a foreign terrorist organization after he 3:18:57.000 --> 3:19:00.400 allegedly sold weapons that he intended to provide to the 3:19:00.520 --> 3:19:06.200 CJND and CDs Cartel Halis gonoeve Hen Rathion and cart Lissinola, 3:19:06.360 --> 3:19:10.240 so two of the larger Mexican cartels. Right, these are 3:19:10.280 --> 3:19:12.440 two groups that were listed as ftos by the Trump 3:19:12.440 --> 3:19:16.440 administration very early on last year. Lawrence Gray, sixty five 3:19:16.920 --> 3:19:20.480 was a federal firearms licensee. He owned a shop called 3:19:20.560 --> 3:19:24.080 Grips by Larry. He sold fancy grips for nineteen elevens. 3:19:24.480 --> 3:19:27.880 He was already facing a raft of weapons charges after 3:19:28.000 --> 3:19:32.400 selling a fifty caliber barrett A semi auto belfed and 3:19:32.520 --> 3:19:35.440 of course a thirty eight Super nineteen eleven pistol to 3:19:35.600 --> 3:19:40.560 a confidential informant. The thirty eight Super nineteen eleven pistol Well, 3:19:40.560 --> 3:19:43.040 the reason I say, of course, is because any time 3:19:43.200 --> 3:19:47.400 people get busted for illegal weapons sales in the Southwest, 3:19:47.920 --> 3:19:49.760 there always seems to be a thirty eight Super nineteen 3:19:49.760 --> 3:19:52.240 eleven involved. That they're very much like a status gun 3:19:52.720 --> 3:19:56.160 in organized crime in Mexico because certain calibers are less 3:19:56.160 --> 3:19:58.800 available there, thirty eight Super is pretty most like uniquely 3:19:59.160 --> 3:20:02.160 associated with with that market. Like it always seems that 3:20:02.200 --> 3:20:05.120 that pops up in busts and he was selling fancy grips, 3:20:05.680 --> 3:20:08.640 some of which had symbology, which sometimes is used by 3:20:08.760 --> 3:20:12.440 organized crime groups in Mexico. Anyway, this is the first 3:20:12.640 --> 3:20:16.000 time I've seen a material support for terrorism charge for 3:20:16.120 --> 3:20:18.800 one of these cartels who were recently designated as ftos, 3:20:19.200 --> 3:20:22.840 so that was interesting to me. Finally, Israel has passed 3:20:22.879 --> 3:20:26.080 a law allowing the death penalty for murder that it 3:20:26.240 --> 3:20:28.840 uses a phrase quote with the intent of rejecting the 3:20:28.920 --> 3:20:32.960 existence of the state of Israel. It appears to be 3:20:33.240 --> 3:20:35.119 a binary system of punishment. 3:20:35.200 --> 3:20:35.320 Right. 3:20:35.400 --> 3:20:37.440 It seems that the death penalty is only going to 3:20:37.520 --> 3:20:41.160 pertain to Palestinian people here. Yeah, it's worth noting that 3:20:41.160 --> 3:20:43.800 the Palestinians the West Bank tried in military courts and 3:20:44.000 --> 3:20:48.959 they face a very high conviction rate. Often people will admit, 3:20:49.959 --> 3:20:51.560 I think we can safety say that they admit under 3:20:51.600 --> 3:20:55.320 duress in conditions it would not generally be considered applicable 3:20:55.400 --> 3:20:56.080 with justice. 3:20:56.600 --> 3:20:56.760 Right. 3:20:57.440 --> 3:21:00.480 This is I mean, this is the cinepart egal system 3:21:00.520 --> 3:21:03.080 on top of everything else. Right, Israel previously haven't had 3:21:03.120 --> 3:21:05.880 the death penalty other than for certain war crimes, which 3:21:05.959 --> 3:21:08.840 is in and of itself quite amusing. Given the stuff 3:21:08.879 --> 3:21:11.720 we will talk about later in this very episode. 3:21:12.360 --> 3:21:17.240 One of the really bleak things about this is, oh, God, Benvier, 3:21:17.720 --> 3:21:21.879 who's been who's the Minister of National Security, the unbelievably 3:21:22.680 --> 3:21:26.160 unhinged right winger who's been campaigning for this law, has 3:21:26.320 --> 3:21:29.600 been going around with a bunch of parliamentary factions wearing 3:21:29.720 --> 3:21:33.040 yellow noose pins. Yeah, this is their thing and in 3:21:33.120 --> 3:21:36.520 support of this. So it's really truly cannot be clearer 3:21:36.640 --> 3:21:37.520 what this is about. 3:21:38.080 --> 3:21:41.840 Yeah, No, that's there, like their version of the market, 3:21:42.040 --> 3:21:44.160 I guess, like their branding of their movement is this 3:21:44.800 --> 3:21:45.600 noos pin. 3:21:46.040 --> 3:21:48.680 Yeah, well it's it's. It's, it's it's it's specifically, it's 3:21:48.720 --> 3:21:51.400 the thing that they've replaced the like the ribbon they 3:21:51.440 --> 3:21:53.640 were wearing for the hostages has now just been replaced 3:21:53.959 --> 3:21:59.920 with the noose with the nows. Yeah, where Jesus Christ. 3:22:00.959 --> 3:22:02.879 There's one more little thing I'd like to mention. 3:22:03.440 --> 3:22:06.160 There was a Daily Mail article that went viral only 3:22:06.240 --> 3:22:11.280 the best news coming from the Daily Mail that carried 3:22:11.320 --> 3:22:14.160 the headline quote bullet used to kill Charlie Kirk did 3:22:14.280 --> 3:22:18.480 not match rifle allegedly used by suspect Tyler Robinson. 3:22:18.760 --> 3:22:20.480 God, so. 3:22:22.000 --> 3:22:26.640 This article is reporting on emotion filed by the defense, 3:22:27.080 --> 3:22:30.960 characterizing findings that are still yet to be fully resolved 3:22:31.200 --> 3:22:36.600 from the ATF. This does not mean that a different 3:22:36.760 --> 3:22:39.720 gun was used. What it means is that the ATF 3:22:40.240 --> 3:22:46.000 was maybe unable to positively match the bullet fragments to 3:22:46.280 --> 3:22:48.360 the gun, Which does not mean that this was a 3:22:48.680 --> 3:22:52.000 negative match. This did not come from that gun, but 3:22:52.080 --> 3:22:55.400 that the fragments could not be positively linked to the 3:22:55.520 --> 3:22:59.320 gun against his emotion filed by the defense doing what 3:22:59.520 --> 3:23:01.920 they need to do, which is legally defend this man like. 3:23:01.959 --> 3:23:05.080 That is that is their job, and that is that 3:23:05.280 --> 3:23:06.080 is what they are doing. 3:23:06.720 --> 3:23:11.080 The characterization of this motion by the Daily Mail is 3:23:11.640 --> 3:23:16.200 designed to drive clickbait, and it's being used to encourage 3:23:16.280 --> 3:23:20.080 this sort of conspiracy around the charliekirk shooting, that there 3:23:20.200 --> 3:23:24.560 was this like other currently unknown shooter possibives foreign ties. 3:23:25.080 --> 3:23:27.360 That's it's a very very popular thing right now on 3:23:27.440 --> 3:23:27.920 the internet. 3:23:28.160 --> 3:23:30.440 The Grassy Mall theory of Charlie kirkshit. 3:23:30.560 --> 3:23:34.240 Yes, that basically like a MASAD agent was hiding somewhere 3:23:34.280 --> 3:23:38.400 and Tyler Robinson is a patsy. Tyler Robinson obviously innocent 3:23:38.480 --> 3:23:40.840 until proven guilty. This is going to get settled in court. 3:23:41.240 --> 3:23:44.680 But the characterization of the early findings by the ATF 3:23:45.080 --> 3:23:47.560 through the Daily Mail was a bit misleading. 3:23:48.080 --> 3:23:49.360 Yeah, they daily fail. 3:23:49.920 --> 3:23:51.440 And also I think it's worth mentioning that like this 3:23:51.640 --> 3:23:56.160 kind of bullet matching stuff is just as a forensic science, 3:23:56.200 --> 3:23:57.480 and this is true of a lot of the sort 3:23:57.520 --> 3:24:01.680 of forensic sciences that are used in used in courts. 3:24:01.800 --> 3:24:04.600 Like I think Robert has talked on Behind the Bastard's 3:24:04.600 --> 3:24:07.320 about like a bunch of like the fire pattern stuff. 3:24:07.440 --> 3:24:09.200 This is kind of in the same category as that, 3:24:09.360 --> 3:24:13.200 in that it's not very good even to begin with. 3:24:14.000 --> 3:24:17.959 And so what we have here is a bad mischaracterization 3:24:18.280 --> 3:24:22.960 of a report of like an incomplete analysis from a 3:24:23.120 --> 3:24:28.160 not very good piece of forensic technology that's being used 3:24:28.160 --> 3:24:29.720 to do conspiracy because it makes money. 3:24:30.240 --> 3:24:33.040 Yeah, we will certainly follow this case as it actually 3:24:33.160 --> 3:24:34.959 riches trial, as there will. 3:24:34.879 --> 3:24:37.039 Be many interesting things that come out through the course 3:24:37.080 --> 3:24:37.560 of that trial. 3:24:38.320 --> 3:24:42.240 All right, So let's begin by talking about immigration with this. 3:24:43.040 --> 3:24:45.160 Brad Land more or less broke this right on his 3:24:45.240 --> 3:24:48.280 social media accounts. The United States Department of Justice, via 3:24:48.320 --> 3:24:51.320 the United States Attorneys obviously New York has admitted that 3:24:51.400 --> 3:24:54.920 it was misguided by ICE attorneys in asserting that they 3:24:55.040 --> 3:24:59.240 could detain migrants in immigration court. There was a memo 3:24:59.400 --> 3:25:02.880 right and guidance memo that they relied on. The memo 3:25:03.040 --> 3:25:06.200 they now say should have applied to other courts, but 3:25:06.480 --> 3:25:10.359 not to the Executive Office of Immigration Review. The declaration 3:25:10.480 --> 3:25:12.920 came in New York court suit filed by the ACLU 3:25:13.040 --> 3:25:16.680 on behalf of advocacy groups which had challenged at courthouse arrests. 3:25:16.920 --> 3:25:18.920 That's been happening for about a year hours I'm sure 3:25:18.920 --> 3:25:21.560 most people are aware. In the filing, the USDOJ said 3:25:21.680 --> 3:25:24.440 quote this error, however, was not caused by a lack 3:25:24.520 --> 3:25:27.960 of diligence and care by the undersigned attorneys. The undersigned 3:25:28.080 --> 3:25:30.560 was specifically informed by ICE that the twenty twenty five 3:25:30.640 --> 3:25:34.320 ICE guidance applied to immigration courthouse arrests. In addition, we 3:25:34.480 --> 3:25:37.960 discussed and obtained the approval of assigned ICE Council before 3:25:38.040 --> 3:25:41.360 filing every brief in this case and making any oral 3:25:41.440 --> 3:25:45.000 representations to the Court and the plaintiffs. We also transmitted 3:25:45.040 --> 3:25:48.119 copies of the Court's orders, transcript to the September second, 3:25:48.200 --> 3:25:51.840 twenty twenty five oral argument and plaintiff's filings to ICE 3:25:51.920 --> 3:25:55.240 Council throughout its litigation. Based on our discussions with ICE today, 3:25:55.440 --> 3:25:58.800 this regrettable error appears to have occurred because of agency 3:25:58.920 --> 3:26:01.520 attorney error. Is what you've got. There is a US 3:26:01.560 --> 3:26:05.320 attorney basically saying, like, not my fault, ICE attorney's fault. 3:26:06.240 --> 3:26:12.640 Relatively unusual statement. Right, Like, obviously we've seen them attempts 3:26:12.680 --> 3:26:14.960 to kind of split the executive branch before in these 3:26:15.040 --> 3:26:18.080 legal filings. Right, we saw, we saw this happen in 3:26:18.160 --> 3:26:21.320 some of those cases in Minnesota, and then the judge 3:26:21.600 --> 3:26:22.200 rejected that. 3:26:22.480 --> 3:26:22.600 Right. 3:26:23.000 --> 3:26:26.000 The ACLU, in a letter of response, noted the wide 3:26:26.080 --> 3:26:29.200 reaching consequences here, and it's asked for fourteen days to 3:26:29.280 --> 3:26:31.520 consider what to do next and file in motion. The 3:26:31.640 --> 3:26:34.600 memo in question. Right, this ICE guidance memo said the 3:26:34.720 --> 3:26:37.880 quote civil immigration enforcement actions in or near court houses 3:26:37.959 --> 3:26:40.440 when they have credible information that leads them to believe 3:26:40.840 --> 3:26:45.120 the targeted aliens alien brackets s IS or will be 3:26:45.320 --> 3:26:48.920 present in a specific location. It said those were permissible. 3:26:49.280 --> 3:26:49.400 Right. 3:26:49.920 --> 3:26:51.720 DHS, however, has said that there will not be a 3:26:51.800 --> 3:26:55.640 change in their policy going forward. It's unlikely that they 3:26:55.800 --> 3:26:59.360 will stop until they are told by a court to 3:26:59.480 --> 3:27:03.480 do so. Right. So what it seems here is that 3:27:03.680 --> 3:27:09.920 the Ice attorney has for some reason reconsidered, perhaps because 3:27:10.360 --> 3:27:12.840 of this ongoing case in New York, what they had 3:27:12.920 --> 3:27:16.320 said there, and now attempted to walk back something that 3:27:16.360 --> 3:27:19.080 they have been doing for a year. This will not 3:27:19.280 --> 3:27:21.840 change the fact that people who have probably been arrested 3:27:21.879 --> 3:27:23.760 in those courthouses. I have no doubt many of them 3:27:23.800 --> 3:27:27.120 have already been deported from the United States. Right, many 3:27:27.200 --> 3:27:29.320 more of them will have suffered material damage if they 3:27:29.360 --> 3:27:31.879 have not been deported, because they will have been detained 3:27:31.920 --> 3:27:35.760 in horrific conditions. Right, We've seen more photos today from 3:27:35.800 --> 3:27:38.560 inside immigration attention. Immigrated detention has always been horrific. It 3:27:38.600 --> 3:27:41.480 continues to be horrific. We can't make those people whole 3:27:41.520 --> 3:27:44.520 again in a meaningful way. But what it means going forward, 3:27:44.879 --> 3:27:48.640 we will keep reporting on another deportation story. I want 3:27:48.680 --> 3:27:53.280 to talk about a deportation flight on Monday landed in Mianma. 3:27:53.840 --> 3:27:55.920 The flight also stopped in Thailand, and it is the 3:27:56.080 --> 3:27:59.200 fifth such deportation flight that I'm aware of. I know 3:27:59.360 --> 3:28:02.920 of two that were announced. These have not been previously reported, 3:28:03.600 --> 3:28:05.680 but in March of twenty twenty five, while at the 3:28:05.720 --> 3:28:10.000 time was a state administration council. The Banmar minitary dictatorship 3:28:10.080 --> 3:28:11.840 is going through the process of changing its clothes and 3:28:11.879 --> 3:28:14.280 pretending to be a civilian government right now, that doesn't 3:28:14.320 --> 3:28:16.680 matter for this story. In the second of March twenty 3:28:16.720 --> 3:28:19.840 twenty five, the illegitimate government of Myanmar announced that it 3:28:19.920 --> 3:28:24.000 had received two individual deporties, one on each flight. In 3:28:24.120 --> 3:28:26.920 April and May of that year, they received more. So 3:28:27.600 --> 3:28:30.520 we now believe that twenty two people had been deported 3:28:31.000 --> 3:28:33.960 up to this Monday, and more people, it appears from 3:28:34.000 --> 3:28:37.920 this flight, have been deported on Monday. The last deportation 3:28:38.040 --> 3:28:41.080 flight resulted in the deporties being detained and tortured by 3:28:41.240 --> 3:28:45.240 Miaan Mar's brutal military intelligence. The flight was a bordered 3:28:45.280 --> 3:28:48.680 jet owned by Journey Aviation and it returned via Sydney 3:28:48.760 --> 3:28:51.200 to the United States of America. The United States has 3:28:51.200 --> 3:28:53.680 been trying to counsel the temporary Protective status for Burmese 3:28:53.720 --> 3:28:56.480 people for some time, but even with a TPS, it's 3:28:56.520 --> 3:28:58.720 worth noting that people some people have been convicted of 3:28:58.800 --> 3:29:03.199 crimes and the exceptions can still be deported, The Hunter 3:29:03.480 --> 3:29:05.959 said in a press release last year. Quote the MEMMA 3:29:06.040 --> 3:29:09.000 government is cooperating with the relevant US federal entities in 3:29:09.160 --> 3:29:12.959 verifying and accepting deportees to Mianma. This and some other 3:29:13.040 --> 3:29:15.600 things a Trump administration have done. They've tried to characterize 3:29:15.640 --> 3:29:17.840 it a de facto recognition of their right to rule 3:29:17.920 --> 3:29:22.440 the country. Yeah, very clearly, the reason that they're talking 3:29:22.520 --> 3:29:25.480 about these deportations is because they're flexing that. Hey, the 3:29:25.560 --> 3:29:30.160 US government is talking to us downstream effectory ed. I 3:29:30.200 --> 3:29:32.440 think the world is largely not taking that seriously, but 3:29:32.520 --> 3:29:35.680 nonetheless they are using that, whether it's for external or 3:29:35.720 --> 3:29:38.840 internal signaling. The last time has happened according to Miama. 3:29:38.920 --> 3:29:41.440 Now the deporties were taken straight to the on Tarpi 3:29:41.600 --> 3:29:46.960 Interrogation Center, and last time it was mostly ethnically Karenne 3:29:47.040 --> 3:29:49.280 or Chin people. So these are not people. It's a 3:29:49.360 --> 3:29:53.720 majority ethnicity, right, The majority ethnicity. The ethnicity that comprises 3:29:53.800 --> 3:29:56.040 most of the armed forces is or certainly most of 3:29:56.080 --> 3:29:58.000 the high ranks of the armed forces are Bama people. 3:29:58.480 --> 3:30:00.480 If people want to listen to more about me and 3:30:00.600 --> 3:30:03.000 my Robert and I have made two very extensive series 3:30:03.040 --> 3:30:07.640 about that, we will link to. Talking of torture, here 3:30:07.920 --> 3:30:11.240 are some advertisements which are like torture for your ears. 3:30:23.640 --> 3:30:25.560 Some people actually like torture. 3:30:26.520 --> 3:30:29.800 Just to clarify Garrison, I don't think this is the 3:30:29.879 --> 3:30:30.720 kind that people like. 3:30:31.440 --> 3:30:34.920 Some people might like those ads. There is a huge 3:30:34.959 --> 3:30:38.960 industry of watching vintage advertising on YouTube, just like like 3:30:39.160 --> 3:30:40.720 edits together of like old ads. 3:30:40.920 --> 3:30:42.240 People love that stuff. 3:30:42.680 --> 3:30:44.840 Weird, weird nostalgic capitalism. 3:30:44.959 --> 3:30:45.160 Brain. 3:30:45.520 --> 3:30:46.960 It is funny to look at the old ads. When 3:30:46.959 --> 3:30:49.480 I was doing my archival research, I'd find like nineteen 3:30:49.480 --> 3:30:51.440 twenties and nineteen thirties ads and you're like, oh, what 3:30:51.560 --> 3:30:54.320 you're selling is drugs, but so. 3:30:54.480 --> 3:30:55.879 True, so true. 3:30:57.080 --> 3:31:00.680 Yeah, it's like the two kinds of early eineteen hundreds 3:31:00.720 --> 3:31:03.560 ads are drugs and you should buy this because it 3:31:03.600 --> 3:31:04.640 has a swastika on it. 3:31:05.520 --> 3:31:08.359 So yeah, yeah, it's just like some form of racism 3:31:08.400 --> 3:31:08.880 in marketing. 3:31:09.040 --> 3:31:12.280 Well, what's favored racist in like nineteen oh five? I 3:31:12.360 --> 3:31:13.280 mean kind of yeah. 3:31:13.720 --> 3:31:15.760 And guys, it's a Buddhist simple original. Guys. 3:31:15.800 --> 3:31:16.240 It's fine. 3:31:17.080 --> 3:31:22.840 Let's return to our name's sake and discuss two executive orders. 3:31:23.720 --> 3:31:27.320 As the voting restriction bill dubbed the Save America Act, 3:31:27.760 --> 3:31:30.760 continues to stall in Congress, Trump has attempted to take 3:31:30.800 --> 3:31:33.480 matters into his own hands by signing a new executive 3:31:33.600 --> 3:31:39.080 order quote ensuring Citizenship of Verification and Integrity in federal elections. 3:31:39.959 --> 3:31:44.760 This order directs DHS, USCIS and the Social Security Administration 3:31:45.160 --> 3:31:50.280 to create a quote state citizenship list of individuals confirmed 3:31:50.360 --> 3:31:53.800 to be United States citizens who will be above the 3:31:53.879 --> 3:31:56.480 age of eighteen at the time of an upcoming federal 3:31:56.520 --> 3:31:59.920 election and who maintain a residence in the subject state. 3:32:01.640 --> 3:32:03.920 And this citizenship list will then be used to compare 3:32:04.080 --> 3:32:08.720 to state voter rules. The list will be derived from 3:32:08.800 --> 3:32:13.520 quote Federal citizenship and Naturalization records, Social Security Administration records, 3:32:13.920 --> 3:32:19.720 the DHS Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements data, and other 3:32:20.080 --> 3:32:24.920 relevant federal databases. Unquote James, do you want to talk 3:32:25.040 --> 3:32:28.120 about this idea of having like a list of citizens, 3:32:28.520 --> 3:32:30.879 because this is I think something we've we've mentioned before. 3:32:31.040 --> 3:32:34.160 How there to this point hasn't really been like a 3:32:34.320 --> 3:32:37.119 single list of US citizens. 3:32:37.400 --> 3:32:40.640 Yeah, because you can obtain United States citizenships through a 3:32:40.720 --> 3:32:43.840 number of means, right, Yeah, So these would exist in 3:32:43.920 --> 3:32:48.480 different agencies, and generally there has been like a hostility, 3:32:48.720 --> 3:32:51.880 a well founded like hostility to to this kind of 3:32:52.560 --> 3:32:56.039 overarching government like in out list, right, not least because 3:32:56.560 --> 3:32:59.879 they will screw it up monumentally. 3:33:00.120 --> 3:33:03.560 Have devastating consequences that affect not just your ability to vote, but, 3:33:04.120 --> 3:33:07.240 as we have seen through the past year of ice enforcement, 3:33:07.480 --> 3:33:09.560 your ability to remain in the United States. 3:33:10.120 --> 3:33:14.480 Yeah, yeah, and just every part of everyday life. Right, Yeah, 3:33:15.240 --> 3:33:16.440 not at least to add that, like one of the 3:33:17.000 --> 3:33:19.400 one of the ways you can obtain United States citizenship 3:33:19.480 --> 3:33:22.520 is through being in a enrolled tribal citizen. I don't 3:33:22.560 --> 3:33:25.840 know if that consulting tribal citizenship worlds don't. 3:33:26.040 --> 3:33:29.439 There was nothing about that in the order. I legitimately 3:33:29.520 --> 3:33:31.840 do not think the people who are pushing this understand 3:33:31.879 --> 3:33:34.480 that that's a thing. Yeah, they don't think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:33:34.600 --> 3:33:36.400 that's not It's not a group of people who they 3:33:36.440 --> 3:33:36.840 care about. 3:33:36.879 --> 3:33:37.000 Right. 3:33:37.480 --> 3:33:42.199 Earlier today, during the Supreme Court oral arguments on birthright citizenship, 3:33:42.240 --> 3:33:44.400 which which Trump attended for ninety minutes and then and 3:33:44.480 --> 3:33:46.800 then left because he wasn't happy with the way it 3:33:47.000 --> 3:33:51.040 was going, Gorsich asked the Seasons Solicitor General if he 3:33:51.080 --> 3:33:55.760 thinks Native Americans are birthright citizens under their test, to 3:33:55.840 --> 3:34:00.320 which these listener general replied, I think so, and then 3:34:00.400 --> 3:34:02.000 said I'll have to think that. 3:34:02.240 --> 3:34:05.880 Through Oh my fucking god. 3:34:06.560 --> 3:34:09.480 He later indicated that they probably would. But this just 3:34:09.520 --> 3:34:11.360 shows that they aren't really like thinking about all these 3:34:11.400 --> 3:34:13.920 sorts of things. It's not necessarily like, in that case, 3:34:14.240 --> 3:34:18.600 trying to be intentionally harmful. It shows just that they're 3:34:18.680 --> 3:34:20.200 they're not even like thinking of these sorts of things 3:34:20.240 --> 3:34:25.400 that could have really really devastating effects if implemented. Yeah, yeah, 3:34:25.440 --> 3:34:27.480 which is like an odd part of the Trump administration 3:34:27.600 --> 3:34:30.440 has like not everything bad they're doing is necessarily has 3:34:31.040 --> 3:34:37.160 every single specific implementation pathway in mind. Yeah, but when 3:34:37.240 --> 3:34:40.840 implemented is like still is still devastating to people's lives. 3:34:41.200 --> 3:34:42.880 I want to say one thing about the birth lay 3:34:42.920 --> 3:34:47.720 clazenship thing. Josh Chafitz, who's a professor of law at 3:34:47.800 --> 3:34:51.840 Georgetown Law Law on Politics, had a very good point 3:34:51.879 --> 3:34:53.680 about this, which I think is worth making, which is, like, 3:34:53.800 --> 3:34:57.040 part of what's going on here is that the trumpministration 3:34:57.160 --> 3:34:59.720 is trying to carve out like a specific thing called 3:34:59.720 --> 3:35:01.760 birth right citizenship. That's like a thing that you get 3:35:01.800 --> 3:35:04.840 if you have two immigrant parents. But birtht right citizenship 3:35:04.920 --> 3:35:08.160 is a citizenship that every single person in the US has. Yeah, 3:35:08.200 --> 3:35:11.400 it's everyone's there's No, there's no distinction. There's not like 3:35:11.480 --> 3:35:13.840 a different kind of citizenship you get if you have 3:35:13.959 --> 3:35:17.080 two immigrant parents versus if you have like parents that 3:35:17.160 --> 3:35:20.280 were like born in the US. Right, Like it's all 3:35:20.680 --> 3:35:22.840 one thing. Every single person in the United States has 3:35:22.920 --> 3:35:24.720 the same kind of citizenship. But the moment you start 3:35:24.800 --> 3:35:28.760 trying to like hack apart different people citizenship, right, you 3:35:28.840 --> 3:35:31.360 try to you try to like you know, like like 3:35:31.600 --> 3:35:34.880 make there be like classes of of how you're a 3:35:34.959 --> 3:35:38.120 citizen through like this whole birthright citizenship complaint that they're 3:35:38.200 --> 3:35:40.920 doing right, and to be like, oh, well, just these 3:35:40.959 --> 3:35:44.800 people who were like born to immigrants are birthright citizens right. 3:35:44.959 --> 3:35:47.000 That's one of the ways you start getting into these 3:35:47.040 --> 3:35:50.160 like fucking hideous issues of like okay, are people with 3:35:50.280 --> 3:35:53.640 tribal membership like you know, residencies like citizens right. It's 3:35:53.680 --> 3:35:55.120 like all of the stuff is like downstream with this 3:35:55.160 --> 3:35:58.280 effect to like cut citizenship of parts that needs to 3:35:58.400 --> 3:36:01.720 just be resisted, like from the fundamental thing of there 3:36:01.800 --> 3:36:04.119 is not a different category of people called the big 3:36:04.160 --> 3:36:06.360 birthrates citizens. That's every single person in the US. 3:36:06.480 --> 3:36:09.080 Yeah, unless they naturalized, right, Unless you're a naturalized citizen. 3:36:09.160 --> 3:36:11.720 Yeah, And what's naturalized? Yeah? Yeah, and even then you're 3:36:11.760 --> 3:36:12.720 still just a citizen. 3:36:13.280 --> 3:36:14.880 Then you become a citizen. You just go into the 3:36:14.879 --> 3:36:15.520 citizen bucket. 3:36:15.520 --> 3:36:17.240 There's one. Then you are now citizen. 3:36:17.400 --> 3:36:17.560 Yeah. 3:36:17.720 --> 3:36:20.760 Yeah, and the moment you cut that apart, like it's terrible, 3:36:20.920 --> 3:36:21.680 terrible things happen. 3:36:22.000 --> 3:36:25.280 Yeah, twenty twenty four and made the episode as Robert 3:36:25.360 --> 3:36:28.240 and Sophie in which we discuss potential at tax on 3:36:28.400 --> 3:36:31.720 citizenship and potential ways of Trump, and we get into 3:36:31.760 --> 3:36:34.480 the birth right citizenship and the we get into where 3:36:34.520 --> 3:36:36.720 it comes from and the fact that this is not 3:36:37.240 --> 3:36:39.480 an issue about which there has been legal debate. You 3:36:39.560 --> 3:36:42.000 will now see articles being like the debate about birth 3:36:42.080 --> 3:36:44.320 right citizenship. That is, people pulling things out of their 3:36:44.400 --> 3:36:47.120 ass to create two sides on an issue which has 3:36:47.160 --> 3:36:51.920 been settled for quite literally decades, if not centuries. No, yeah, 3:36:52.120 --> 3:36:53.720 I will probably try and do something else on birth 3:36:53.800 --> 3:36:56.040 right citizenship. The reason I haven't done a lot is 3:36:56.080 --> 3:36:58.720 because there isn't a great deal to say. Yeah, like, 3:36:59.080 --> 3:37:01.360 birth right citizenship is a thing in the United States. 3:37:01.400 --> 3:37:02.520 It has been a thing in the United States for 3:37:02.560 --> 3:37:03.240 a very long time. 3:37:03.360 --> 3:37:05.480 It's just in the Constitution just says that. 3:37:05.959 --> 3:37:08.240 It just says that, yeah, there are some people who 3:37:08.240 --> 3:37:12.000 want to take it away, and it's specifically like we 3:37:12.120 --> 3:37:14.800 did that after we ended chattel slavery, right like for 3:37:14.920 --> 3:37:17.480 a very good reason. Yeah, and pushing back on the 3:37:17.560 --> 3:37:20.600 things we did after we ended chattel slavery is is 3:37:20.720 --> 3:37:23.640 bad actually, But yeah, I will maybe I'll do another 3:37:23.680 --> 3:37:25.200 episode because I know we've picked up a lot of 3:37:25.240 --> 3:37:26.280 new listeners since then. 3:37:27.040 --> 3:37:27.200 Now. 3:37:27.320 --> 3:37:32.520 Trump's new executive Order on citizens a verification for elections 3:37:33.160 --> 3:37:36.280 also states, quote, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish 3:37:36.320 --> 3:37:41.280 procedures to allow individuals to access their individual records, as 3:37:41.320 --> 3:37:44.959 well as to update or correct them in advance of elections. 3:37:45.440 --> 3:37:45.880 Unquote. 3:37:46.360 --> 3:37:48.560 Unclear how this is going to work, if it even 3:37:48.760 --> 3:37:51.640 is gonna work. It's still not clear that this executive 3:37:51.720 --> 3:37:54.840 order will actually be implemented as written because of potential 3:37:54.959 --> 3:37:59.080 constitutional violations. But you know, this would be in an 3:37:59.120 --> 3:38:03.280 attempt to add some of the pretty big issues that 3:38:03.560 --> 3:38:05.520 we're saying about. Someone may be a citizen and not 3:38:05.640 --> 3:38:08.000 show up as a citizen in these databases for a 3:38:08.120 --> 3:38:10.560 number of reasons, whether it's because they were naturalized or 3:38:10.840 --> 3:38:14.560 even in some cases where granted citizenship through one of 3:38:14.720 --> 3:38:20.280 their parents after being in the sole legal custody of 3:38:20.520 --> 3:38:24.400 that parent who is a US citizen before this individual 3:38:24.959 --> 3:38:27.520 is eighteen. This is called the Childhood Citizenship Act of 3:38:27.560 --> 3:38:31.800 two thousand, which makes a permanent resident become a citizen 3:38:32.080 --> 3:38:36.360 if they're living with a US citizen parent and things 3:38:36.440 --> 3:38:40.600 like that. Citizenship kind of rolls over from permanent residency 3:38:40.959 --> 3:38:44.440 without ever actually having to become naturalized, and getting that 3:38:44.600 --> 3:38:47.720 added to any kind of database doesn't really happen by itself. 3:38:47.760 --> 3:38:49.720 You have to then apply for proof of citizenship like 3:38:49.760 --> 3:38:53.760 a passport or a certificate. So there's all these sorts 3:38:53.760 --> 3:38:56.120 of weird instances where someone is a citizen, but it 3:38:56.160 --> 3:38:58.400 may not show up in these sorts of records, including 3:38:58.480 --> 3:38:59.560 social security records. 3:39:00.560 --> 3:39:03.240 I should just clarify that not all tribal members are 3:39:03.280 --> 3:39:07.120 necessarily US citizens, but tribal membership document can sometimes be used, 3:39:07.280 --> 3:39:09.200 like Garrison was saying, right, as a way to prove 3:39:09.320 --> 3:39:12.680 United States citizenship. Just more than one hundred years now 3:39:13.000 --> 3:39:15.440 since the Indian Citizenship Act of nineteen twenty four, right, 3:39:16.040 --> 3:39:19.520 there may still be people alive today who were made 3:39:19.600 --> 3:39:23.119 citizens by that act, but would not have any particular 3:39:23.200 --> 3:39:25.039 documentation that's personal to them. 3:39:24.920 --> 3:39:28.560 To show that the Executive order also writes that the 3:39:28.600 --> 3:39:32.840 Attorney General will investigate and prosecute state officials, local officials, individuals, 3:39:33.480 --> 3:39:36.400 and public or private entities who issue federal ballots to 3:39:36.520 --> 3:39:40.000 individuals not eligible to vote, or aid an a bet 3:39:40.120 --> 3:39:43.600 the printing, production, shipment, or distribution of ballots to those 3:39:44.000 --> 3:39:45.119 ineligible to vote. 3:39:45.640 --> 3:39:47.120 That's what we call a chilling effect. 3:39:47.800 --> 3:39:51.200 The second half of the order takes on vote by 3:39:51.240 --> 3:39:54.720 mail by instructing the Postmaster General to initiate a proposed 3:39:55.000 --> 3:39:59.199 rule making that requires states to submit lists of voters 3:39:59.320 --> 3:40:02.440 who will be provided mail in or absencee ballots at 3:40:02.520 --> 3:40:05.640 least sixty days before an election, and that the USPS 3:40:06.040 --> 3:40:09.440 shall not transmit any ballots for anyone not on this 3:40:09.720 --> 3:40:13.080 state citizenship list. Now, all of this is intended to 3:40:13.200 --> 3:40:16.640 take effect before the midterm elections, with the DHS instructed 3:40:16.680 --> 3:40:20.680 to establish the infrastructure necessary to compile, maintain, and transmit 3:40:21.080 --> 3:40:24.840 the state citizenship list within ninety days. Though this executive 3:40:24.920 --> 3:40:27.360 order may very well be blocked by courts for being 3:40:27.440 --> 3:40:31.280 an unconstitutional breach of presidential power, the followut of this 3:40:31.320 --> 3:40:34.199 will be determined in the next few weeks as states 3:40:34.440 --> 3:40:39.360 and legal entities prepare lawsuits. Let's talk about one other 3:40:39.400 --> 3:40:43.320 executive order. On Tuesday, a federal judge ruled that a 3:40:43.440 --> 3:40:47.760 key section of the executive order quote ending taxpayer subsitization 3:40:48.000 --> 3:40:53.279 of biased media, is unconstitutional. In this order, Trump instructed 3:40:53.280 --> 3:40:56.160 all federal agencies to cut funding to PBS and NPR. 3:40:56.760 --> 3:40:59.520 The judge in this case wrote that the President can 3:40:59.640 --> 3:41:03.520 credits reporting from such outlets and fund programs that promote 3:41:03.560 --> 3:41:07.440 specific perspectives and impose limits on federal grants, but under 3:41:07.440 --> 3:41:09.880 the First Amendment, the government cannot use the power of 3:41:09.959 --> 3:41:14.520 the purse to quote, punish or suppress disfavored expression by others, 3:41:15.240 --> 3:41:18.760 writing that both the Supreme Court and the DC Circuit 3:41:18.840 --> 3:41:22.360 Court have repeatedly observed that one quote may not deny 3:41:22.520 --> 3:41:25.519 a benefit to a person on the basis that infringes 3:41:25.600 --> 3:41:28.400 his constitutionally protected freedom of speech, even if he has 3:41:28.480 --> 3:41:32.440 no entitlement to that benefit unquote. The judge rights that 3:41:32.520 --> 3:41:35.680 the executive order quote does not define or regulate the 3:41:35.840 --> 3:41:39.160 content of government speech or ensure compliance with the federal program, 3:41:39.320 --> 3:41:42.960 nor does it set neutral and germane criteria that apply 3:41:43.120 --> 3:41:45.640 to all applicants for a federal grant program. Instead, it 3:41:45.680 --> 3:41:47.760 singles out to two speakers and on the basis of 3:41:47.879 --> 3:41:51.960 their speech bars them from all federally funded programs. It 3:41:52.080 --> 3:41:54.400 does so, moreover, without regard to whether the federal funds 3:41:54.440 --> 3:41:57.240 are used to pay for the nationwide interconnection systems, which 3:41:57.280 --> 3:42:00.680 serve as the technological backbone of public radio and NIME television, 3:42:01.000 --> 3:42:03.680 to provide safety and security for journalists working in war zones, 3:42:03.800 --> 3:42:06.280 to support the Emergency Broadcast system, or to produce or 3:42:06.280 --> 3:42:11.160 distribute music, children's or other educational programming or documentaries unquote. Now, 3:42:11.280 --> 3:42:14.640 besides setting a good legal precedent, this ruling won't have 3:42:14.920 --> 3:42:18.880 much in terms of immediate effects because the Corporation for 3:42:19.040 --> 3:42:23.320 Public Broadcasting was dissolved last month after being defunded by 3:42:23.400 --> 3:42:27.800 the Republican controlled Congress. That's not being reversed, but this 3:42:28.000 --> 3:42:31.440 ruling could make it less difficult for PBS and NPR 3:42:31.520 --> 3:42:34.600 to receive money in the future, either from Congress or 3:42:35.040 --> 3:42:36.400 some federal agencies. 3:42:37.040 --> 3:42:38.600 What's that sound, Oh? 3:42:38.720 --> 3:42:42.480 No, someone desecrating the legacy of the Clash by singing 3:42:42.560 --> 3:42:44.640 there were a song with different lyrics. 3:42:58.400 --> 3:42:59.320 Rights. 3:43:01.040 --> 3:43:03.920 Seriously, though I'm still angry to. 3:43:04.040 --> 3:43:06.800 Be a fair to buy entrance music, the Clash desecrated 3:43:06.840 --> 3:43:09.400 themselves by making that song. 3:43:10.280 --> 3:43:13.119 Yeah, with the moment they released that song. Yeah, Joe 3:43:13.200 --> 3:43:15.920 Strammer cried when they played that song during Desert Storm, 3:43:16.120 --> 3:43:19.000 and if he was alive today he would be crying again. 3:43:19.720 --> 3:43:24.039 Yeah. So, okay, we actually do have tariff news, which 3:43:24.080 --> 3:43:27.080 the first tariff news in a while. But when we 3:43:27.160 --> 3:43:30.320 last spoke about the Supreme Court nullifying the Liberation Day 3:43:30.400 --> 3:43:32.879 terroriffs and a significant chunk of the tariffs that Trump 3:43:32.959 --> 3:43:36.000 had been putting into effect, we said that there wasn't 3:43:36.120 --> 3:43:40.560 a plan really to get tariff free funds out and 3:43:40.600 --> 3:43:43.320 that it really hadn't been addressed other than by dissenting 3:43:43.520 --> 3:43:47.160 Supreme Court members. We are sort of starting to see 3:43:47.200 --> 3:43:49.920 what that looks like after a series of rulings from 3:43:50.040 --> 3:43:56.160 trade courts. Right now, it is a fiasco. So the 3:43:56.240 --> 3:44:00.199 government has set up a portal through which you can 3:44:01.040 --> 3:44:04.320 get relief now after it was sort of after it 3:44:04.400 --> 3:44:06.800 was sort of forced to by the courts. The implementation 3:44:06.920 --> 3:44:09.600 of this has been delayed several times because the government 3:44:09.680 --> 3:44:13.119 didn't have time to actually get it out. A bunch 3:44:13.200 --> 3:44:17.400 of the portal is not built yet. The government is 3:44:17.480 --> 3:44:19.680 claiming that it is going to take more time to 3:44:19.879 --> 3:44:22.240 build a whole bunch of it. Yeah, I bet now 3:44:22.440 --> 3:44:26.400 This is a catastrophe because they're they're dealing with about 3:44:26.400 --> 3:44:28.320 one hundred and a bit over one hundred and sixty 3:44:28.360 --> 3:44:31.280 six billion dollars of tariff money. But they have to 3:44:31.320 --> 3:44:32.440 pay back plus interest. 3:44:32.879 --> 3:44:34.200 It's interest, that's funny. 3:44:34.400 --> 3:44:36.040 Yeah, plus interest. This is the whole thing. 3:44:36.160 --> 3:44:37.760 Right, they have to do interest on all of this, 3:44:38.000 --> 3:44:38.920 which is a nightmare. 3:44:39.080 --> 3:44:41.520 It's the interest of crewing while they bungle setting up 3:44:41.560 --> 3:44:42.800 this quest based site or whatever. 3:44:43.080 --> 3:44:46.640 Yeah, it's still going every second. The interesting thing is 3:44:46.720 --> 3:44:49.480 ticking on this. So I'm going to quote here from 3:44:49.520 --> 3:44:53.640 Bloomberg Brandon Lord, executive director of the Trade Program's Directory 3:44:53.640 --> 3:44:55.280 of the Customers Agency, who are the people who are 3:44:55.280 --> 3:44:57.640 sort of running all this is also part of why 3:44:57.640 --> 3:45:01.680 it's such a disaster because there's like seventeen different agencies 3:45:01.760 --> 3:45:05.040 that are like working on this, right, So some of 3:45:05.080 --> 3:45:08.120 it's like the Trade Program Director, like at the Customs Agency, 3:45:08.200 --> 3:45:11.520 but there's also just there's different parts of the Customs 3:45:11.600 --> 3:45:14.840 and Customs and Border Patrol that's dealing with all of 3:45:14.920 --> 3:45:18.600 this stuff. Quote wrote that more than twenty six thousand 3:45:18.760 --> 3:45:22.040 importers who paid one hundred and twenty billion dollars in 3:45:22.080 --> 3:45:25.640 the challenge terrorists were registered to receive electronic refunds. So far, 3:45:26.800 --> 3:45:29.280 the government has said that payments could take up to 3:45:29.480 --> 3:45:31.760 forty five days to review. I would bet that it 3:45:31.840 --> 3:45:35.279 takes longer than that, because again, the portal hasn't been written, 3:45:35.400 --> 3:45:39.119 hasn't been like made yet. But partnerspate are still being built. 3:45:39.360 --> 3:45:41.680 I'm sure those doge guys are on. I'm sure the 3:45:41.920 --> 3:45:45.120 veriest thing up running in no time. I'm sure they 3:45:45.320 --> 3:45:48.680 vibe code their way to a perfectly functioning portal. It's 3:45:48.720 --> 3:45:50.840 gonna be so good. And and again I kind of 3:45:50.879 --> 3:45:53.480 beside how much fatastrophe this is. The government has said 3:45:53.640 --> 3:45:57.320 in court that they're portals set up for two thirds 3:45:57.360 --> 3:46:00.240 of the Mouney, Right, there's still another third that they're like, yeah, 3:46:00.240 --> 3:46:02.520 I don't know, we're working on it. Who knows when 3:46:02.560 --> 3:46:05.959 it's gonna happen. So there's just again like a third 3:46:06.000 --> 3:46:08.760 of the hundred sixty six billion dollars that they don't 3:46:08.760 --> 3:46:13.840 even plan to refund. Amazing. Now, now this is not 3:46:14.160 --> 3:46:17.680 even the messiest part of this, right. There's a very 3:46:17.680 --> 3:46:21.199 good piece in the conversation from Peter R. Krabb, who's 3:46:21.200 --> 3:46:25.199 the professor of finance and economics at Northwestern Nazarene and University, 3:46:25.360 --> 3:46:28.760 and also Alison and Graham Larson, who's assistant professor of 3:46:28.800 --> 3:46:32.040 criminal Justice at the same university, and they point out 3:46:32.320 --> 3:46:35.360 that it's not actually as simple as okay, you have 3:46:35.520 --> 3:46:38.040 a you have a item on your balance sheet that 3:46:38.200 --> 3:46:42.240 is the tariff payments for these companies because for example, 3:46:42.680 --> 3:46:44.600 you know, okay, so if you were doing like FedEx, 3:46:44.640 --> 3:46:46.959 for example, they use right, FedEx has like a number 3:46:47.640 --> 3:46:49.400 right because they just they passed the cost directly on 3:46:49.480 --> 3:46:53.840 to the consumers. However, Costco didn't do that. Costco shifted 3:46:53.879 --> 3:46:56.960 the cost around internally. So it's actually very complicated for 3:46:57.000 --> 3:46:59.880 them to figure out how much money they like be 3:47:00.080 --> 3:47:01.640 paid on these terrafts because it was spread a bunch 3:47:01.680 --> 3:47:03.400 of around a whole bunch of stuff. They also like 3:47:03.600 --> 3:47:07.520 changed the way that they were structuring deliveries and stuff internally, 3:47:08.080 --> 3:47:10.280 and there were so there are a whole bunch of 3:47:10.440 --> 3:47:14.560 different lawsuits from these companies to try to get their 3:47:14.600 --> 3:47:16.640 tariff money back because a lot of these were going 3:47:16.680 --> 3:47:19.880 on before the actual formal refund process was started. So 3:47:20.040 --> 3:47:22.840 this is like this is another rolling catastrophe. There's also 3:47:23.000 --> 3:47:26.520 consumer lawsuits of consumers people who bought shit who want 3:47:26.560 --> 3:47:28.320 refunds for the teriffs because they were forced to pay 3:47:28.400 --> 3:47:31.879 the costs of it. Now, because this is the United 3:47:31.920 --> 3:47:35.480 States of America, there's another layer of this, which is 3:47:35.560 --> 3:47:37.800 there are a whole bunch of companies where there are 3:47:37.800 --> 3:47:41.320 there are these investment firms who have come in and said, hey, 3:47:41.800 --> 3:47:44.280 we will buy the rights to your tariff money for 3:47:44.360 --> 3:47:47.080 a fraction of the money, and we will guarantee that 3:47:47.160 --> 3:47:49.440 you get this money now, and then we will pay 3:47:49.480 --> 3:47:51.960 ourselves with the tariff money that we got back. So 3:47:52.080 --> 3:47:54.640 now you have investment firms who are buying up pools 3:47:54.840 --> 3:47:59.040 of this tariff money. And I bet, from spending a 3:47:59.080 --> 3:48:01.160 bunch of time last week week in the trenches of 3:48:01.200 --> 3:48:03.959 the two thousand and eight financial collapse, Molly, I bet 3:48:04.240 --> 3:48:07.800 they're gonna start selling securities fixed off of these pools 3:48:07.840 --> 3:48:10.840 of tariff money. So this, oh my head ache. This 3:48:11.000 --> 3:48:11.959 is great. 3:48:12.879 --> 3:48:14.119 What's what I gotta say? 3:48:14.120 --> 3:48:20.520 I'm on the tariffy on? Oh, it's so good. 3:48:20.760 --> 3:48:23.720 Well, I'm just excited to receive my refund from all 3:48:23.760 --> 3:48:26.560 of the Jay fashion I ordered from Japan, which I'm 3:48:26.600 --> 3:48:29.280 sure I'll be personally receiving thanks to this. 3:48:29.480 --> 3:48:31.560 Hey, you know, here's here's the thing. Here's the thing. 3:48:31.840 --> 3:48:36.119 The one truly beautiful part of the US legal system 3:48:36.879 --> 3:48:40.120 is that you can sue someone for twenty dollars of damages. 3:48:40.760 --> 3:48:43.720 That number has never been changed. It is the one 3:48:44.360 --> 3:48:47.880 truly beautiful part of the United States of America is 3:48:48.000 --> 3:48:51.640 that you, Garrison David almost certainly could sue the government 3:48:51.680 --> 3:48:55.000 for that money. That's funny. Yeah, I'm not doing that 3:48:55.080 --> 3:48:56.680 shit too, which work. 3:48:56.920 --> 3:49:00.640 No, So the gofundmeling for garrisons comes to you, lawyer. 3:49:00.959 --> 3:49:04.360 If someone takes a forty dollars bill from you, you 3:49:04.480 --> 3:49:07.960 can go fucking see them in court. It's beautiful. 3:49:09.560 --> 3:49:14.880 Just tag Garrison at I write okaybsky dot app yeah, 3:49:15.280 --> 3:49:17.680 and they just say, Hi, I am a constitutional lawyer. 3:49:17.720 --> 3:49:19.960 I would like to represent you in court. Read the 3:49:20.040 --> 3:49:21.040 twenty dollars thank you? 3:49:21.200 --> 3:49:21.320 Yes. 3:49:21.440 --> 3:49:22.880 Oh and by the way, by the way, the one 3:49:23.040 --> 3:49:24.960 last thing I want to notice, on a somewhat serious note, 3:49:25.040 --> 3:49:29.600 is that this entire catastrophe is just for one specific 3:49:29.720 --> 3:49:32.600 set of authority that Trump was using to put tariffs 3:49:32.600 --> 3:49:34.240 into place. There are a whole bunch of other ones 3:49:34.280 --> 3:49:37.160 that he's been doing now that will also get challenged, 3:49:37.200 --> 3:49:39.480 that will have their own refund processes where we will 3:49:39.560 --> 3:49:40.240 go through this. 3:49:40.600 --> 3:49:43.560 Entire mess again with different things. 3:49:43.800 --> 3:49:47.480 So it's great, great things happening for international trade as 3:49:47.760 --> 3:49:51.640 we Yeah, increase the price of fucking oil to like 3:49:51.880 --> 3:49:55.800 two hundred dollars a barrel, and I don't know, finally 3:49:55.840 --> 3:50:00.760 get our Calvin and Hobbes eight dollar gasoline. It's great. Well, 3:50:01.000 --> 3:50:02.080 long live the cycler. 3:50:02.640 --> 3:50:02.800 Yeah. 3:50:02.840 --> 3:50:05.760 The national price of gathleen is now at four bucks, 3:50:05.840 --> 3:50:06.280 I think. 3:50:06.480 --> 3:50:09.200 And that's why they call him the affordability President. 3:50:09.400 --> 3:50:09.760 Uh huh. 3:50:09.960 --> 3:50:12.280 Yes, anyone checks on the egg prices though, because that's 3:50:13.000 --> 3:50:13.840 how we do things now. 3:50:14.280 --> 3:50:17.240 Expensive a shit, expensive shit James, Yeah. 3:50:17.440 --> 3:50:18.400 Yeah, not cheap. 3:50:19.520 --> 3:50:24.320 Let me divert new listeners to are a famous Chickens 3:50:24.440 --> 3:50:29.080 episode circa twenty twenty three and which we can learn 3:50:29.120 --> 3:50:44.760 more about keeping poultry at home. Talking of catastrophes, I 3:50:44.800 --> 3:50:48.400 would like to continue to talk about the war on Iran. 3:50:49.160 --> 3:50:52.400 The President truthed this week that he was prepared to 3:50:52.560 --> 3:50:56.440 attack desalination and power plants in Iran if the state 3:50:56.520 --> 3:51:00.800 did not comply with his demands. Jesus in his truth, 3:51:00.920 --> 3:51:04.600 he said, I will skip remarking on capitalization, as is 3:51:04.640 --> 3:51:06.280 our house style, because as well as these would take 3:51:06.320 --> 3:51:08.560 half an hour. The United States of America is in 3:51:08.720 --> 3:51:11.760 serious discussions with a new and more reasonable regime to 3:51:11.960 --> 3:51:15.320 end our military operations in Iran. Great progress has been made, 3:51:15.560 --> 3:51:18.480 but if for any reason a deal that's not shortly reached, 3:51:18.720 --> 3:51:21.080 which it probably will be, and if the Hormu Strait 3:51:21.200 --> 3:51:24.160 is not immediately open for business, we will conclude a 3:51:24.240 --> 3:51:27.200 lovely stay in Iran by blowing up and completely obliterating 3:51:27.320 --> 3:51:31.800 all of their electric generating plants, oil wells, and Khag Island. 3:51:32.360 --> 3:51:38.640 Probably all this is sick desalinization plants, which we have 3:51:38.800 --> 3:51:42.000 purposely not yet touched. This will be a retribution for 3:51:42.080 --> 3:51:44.560 our many soldiers and for others that Iran has butchered 3:51:44.600 --> 3:51:47.720 and killed over the old regime's forty seven year reign 3:51:47.800 --> 3:51:50.840 of terror. Thank you for your attention to this matter, 3:51:51.080 --> 3:51:55.480 President Donald J. Trump, as a reporter NBC pointed out, 3:51:55.560 --> 3:51:58.320 targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime. 3:51:58.360 --> 3:52:02.680 Under international law, Striking civilian infrastructure like that is generally prohibited. 3:52:03.160 --> 3:52:06.040 Why is the President threatening what would amount to potentially 3:52:06.120 --> 3:52:08.640 a war crime with the US military. How do you 3:52:08.680 --> 3:52:11.480 square that with the administration repeatedly saying that the US. 3:52:11.320 --> 3:52:14.440 Does not target civilian look the President has made it 3:52:14.560 --> 3:52:17.240 quite clear to the Iranian regime at this moment in time, 3:52:17.360 --> 3:52:20.280 as evidenced by the statement that you just read, that 3:52:20.440 --> 3:52:23.040 their best move is to make a deal or else. 3:52:23.080 --> 3:52:27.640 The United States Armed Forces has capabilities beyond their wildest imagination, 3:52:27.800 --> 3:52:31.000 and the President is not afraid to use them. That's 3:52:31.040 --> 3:52:33.560 not what I said, Garrett, And you're saying the word 3:52:33.640 --> 3:52:36.720 potential for a reason, because I'm sure sure some experts 3:52:36.840 --> 3:52:39.240 are telling you that in your ear to try to 3:52:39.320 --> 3:52:41.960 ask me that question. Of course, this administration in the 3:52:42.040 --> 3:52:45.320 United States Armed Forces will always act within the confines 3:52:45.360 --> 3:52:48.800 of the law. But with respect to achieving the full 3:52:48.840 --> 3:52:51.320 objectives of Operation Epic Fury, President Trump is going to 3:52:51.400 --> 3:52:55.160 move forward unabated, and he expects the Iranian regime to 3:52:55.200 --> 3:52:56.360 make a deal with the administration. 3:52:57.280 --> 3:52:59.880 It should be noted Iran has said that it is 3:53:00.200 --> 3:53:03.880 not negotiating directly with the United States then negotiating through 3:53:03.880 --> 3:53:08.480 a third party. What is largely missing from this discussion 3:53:09.440 --> 3:53:13.120 is that Israel has been doing this stuff already. Obviously, 3:53:13.440 --> 3:53:15.880 Israel has not limited its war crimes to its bombing 3:53:15.920 --> 3:53:18.160 of Iran. Right it has been on a war crimes 3:53:18.160 --> 3:53:20.560 freeze for several years, and that is an extension of 3:53:20.640 --> 3:53:22.480 a war crime speed that he has been arguably on 3:53:22.600 --> 3:53:26.520 for several decades. Israel attack to desalinate some plant on 3:53:26.600 --> 3:53:30.640 the seventh of March, very briefly, the Israeli press attempted 3:53:30.640 --> 3:53:33.680 to report that the UAE had done this. The UAE 3:53:33.960 --> 3:53:36.880 had to issue a statement essentially saying like, we would 3:53:36.920 --> 3:53:39.600 never attack the people of Iran, while we disagree with 3:53:40.120 --> 3:53:42.880 the state of Iran, while that you've been like outwhoked 3:53:42.920 --> 3:53:46.320 by the UAE, but them saying like it's no way 3:53:46.360 --> 3:53:48.800 to attack the Iranian regime to force Iranian people to 3:53:48.880 --> 3:53:51.320 die for lack of water is a perfectly reasonable and 3:53:51.560 --> 3:53:52.160 just statement. 3:53:52.320 --> 3:53:52.480 Right. 3:53:53.040 --> 3:53:56.120 Officially, both the IDF and the US government have denied 3:53:56.160 --> 3:54:00.000 this strike, but the combination of like several factors include 3:54:00.040 --> 3:54:03.600 duding this incredibly rapid disinformation campaign strongly point to this 3:54:03.680 --> 3:54:05.040 being an id F joint Yeah. 3:54:05.080 --> 3:54:08.480 Also who else, like what what are you too? Bobbed it? 3:54:08.720 --> 3:54:11.960 Like what are you what are you going to do career? 3:54:13.000 --> 3:54:13.240 Lately? 3:54:13.720 --> 3:54:17.840 Yeah, there have been there have been attempt to several 3:54:17.880 --> 3:54:20.360 attempts over the last month to to to suggest that 3:54:20.440 --> 3:54:22.680 like other golf states have done things when when they're 3:54:22.680 --> 3:54:27.680 politically inconvenient. This, as far as I'm concerned, very very 3:54:27.920 --> 3:54:31.080 likely to be an IDF situation. This point is something 3:54:31.120 --> 3:54:33.400 that we've talked about for more than a month now, 3:54:33.920 --> 3:54:35.320 but I just want to make it really clear that 3:54:35.400 --> 3:54:39.600 the US and Israel very clearly have very different goals 3:54:40.000 --> 3:54:43.560 in it run. I think that sometimes we see this 3:54:45.240 --> 3:54:47.400 this very puerile analysis has taken hold on the left 3:54:47.440 --> 3:54:49.600 in the United States right, which suggests that Israel is 3:54:49.720 --> 3:54:52.120 entirely driving the bus here, that they cajoled the United 3:54:52.160 --> 3:54:54.320 States into doing this war, and they're telling the United 3:54:54.360 --> 3:54:57.000 States what to do, when and where and how. I 3:54:57.080 --> 3:55:00.160 think that's a very juvenile way of understanding this. In 3:55:00.200 --> 3:55:03.160 the United States have wanted war with Iran for decades. 3:55:03.800 --> 3:55:06.680 Trump talked about it in his first term. Trump also 3:55:06.840 --> 3:55:11.080 still clearly Harbor's resentment for Obama quote unquote getting bin 3:55:11.200 --> 3:55:16.200 Laden and wants a sort of similar commander in chief win. 3:55:17.120 --> 3:55:21.920 His confidence was significantly bolstered after the Venezuela operation, and 3:55:22.040 --> 3:55:24.760 he thought he could affect a regime change here quickly 3:55:25.120 --> 3:55:27.440 and then extract tribute from a client's day, as he 3:55:27.480 --> 3:55:30.720 appears to be doing from Delca and Venezuela now. This 3:55:30.960 --> 3:55:34.840 has not worked so far in Iran. Israel, on the 3:55:34.960 --> 3:55:38.160 other hand, has continued with his own campaign, which is 3:55:38.200 --> 3:55:40.600 an extension of what we have seen it doing in Gaza, 3:55:40.680 --> 3:55:43.000 what we are seeing it doing in Lebanon, which seems 3:55:43.040 --> 3:55:47.120 to be to cripple any state in the region, any 3:55:47.880 --> 3:55:50.360 population in the region that opposed it. Right, but it 3:55:50.480 --> 3:55:52.800 genuinely seems that its goal here is to leave itself 3:55:52.880 --> 3:55:56.720 sort of the only functioning quality in the region and 3:55:56.840 --> 3:56:01.160 to destroy any other armed actor with very little concern 3:56:01.520 --> 3:56:04.600 for the loss of innocent life. The United States in 3:56:04.640 --> 3:56:08.960 the last week has lost significant aviation resources after Iranian 3:56:09.040 --> 3:56:12.520 ballistic missiles struck and air based into Saudi Arabia. They 3:56:12.640 --> 3:56:16.440 damaged at least one E three A wax aircraft and 3:56:16.560 --> 3:56:18.880 then a handful of KT one thirty five air to 3:56:18.960 --> 3:56:22.840 wear refueling aircraft. This is not in a significant loss. 3:56:22.840 --> 3:56:25.480 This is half a billion dollars of aviation wiped out 3:56:25.960 --> 3:56:28.400 in a single strike. And these are not aeroplanes that 3:56:28.480 --> 3:56:30.480 the United States has a large number of. 3:56:30.720 --> 3:56:30.840 Right. 3:56:31.280 --> 3:56:35.320 Iran also hit aquated tanker this week, A drone seed 3:56:35.360 --> 3:56:36.840 to have hit it off the coast of Dubai. It 3:56:36.920 --> 3:56:39.840 caught fire. There was potential for an oil spill, but 3:56:39.920 --> 3:56:41.560 what I'm seeing at the time where accordingly this is 3:56:41.760 --> 3:56:45.840 has not been once so far, Yeah, exactly. I mean 3:56:46.000 --> 3:56:50.120 every war is an ecological disaster, but this one could 3:56:50.200 --> 3:56:52.760 re a particularly remarkable one. And then I just do 3:56:52.840 --> 3:56:55.960 briefly want to mention the economic impacts. Of course, it 3:56:56.000 --> 3:56:57.560 will be very hard to be living on this planet 3:56:57.640 --> 3:57:01.120 right now and not noticee economic impacts. But the Republic 3:57:01.160 --> 3:57:03.760 of the Marshall Islands has declared a state of emergency 3:57:03.800 --> 3:57:07.480 and begun fuel rationing that they're strictly limiting the use 3:57:07.520 --> 3:57:10.880 of government vehicles. I have reached out to the government 3:57:10.920 --> 3:57:15.000 to presidency. You can hear my reporting from Republic of 3:57:15.000 --> 3:57:17.040 the Martial Islands, including the interview with the then president 3:57:17.080 --> 3:57:20.280 in twenty twenty three. That's another series that we've made 3:57:20.320 --> 3:57:22.520 here on it could happen here that I'm going to 3:57:22.560 --> 3:57:24.120 see if we can get someone from the RMI on 3:57:24.200 --> 3:57:27.360 for an interview, because I think some of these small 3:57:27.400 --> 3:57:29.520 island nations right where everything has to be shipped in 3:57:30.080 --> 3:57:35.040 the cost of fuel can make things extremely difficult for 3:57:35.160 --> 3:57:37.040 people just trying to eke out an existence there in 3:57:37.080 --> 3:57:40.320 a place that the United States nuked despite never raising 3:57:40.400 --> 3:57:42.280 the word and anger against us. 3:57:43.200 --> 3:57:46.320 Finally, our last few stories this episode starting with a 3:57:46.520 --> 3:57:52.040 Tale of Two Bombing Plots American classic Truly the American 3:57:52.080 --> 3:57:54.880 tradition that just won't die. My brother and sister have 3:57:54.960 --> 3:57:59.040 been indicted after allegedly planting and improvised exposit device outside 3:57:59.080 --> 3:58:04.520 of McDill Air Force Space in Tampa, Florida, on March tenth, 3:58:05.000 --> 3:58:09.360 before fleeing to China two days later. After planting the bomb, 3:58:09.600 --> 3:58:12.480 the brother allegedly alerted officials by calling nine to one 3:58:12.480 --> 3:58:16.200 to one, but the explosive went undiscovered for nearly a week. 3:58:16.600 --> 3:58:17.520 It did not detonate. 3:58:18.040 --> 3:58:18.200 Huh. 3:58:18.800 --> 3:58:21.840 The sister was arrested after returning from China, and she's 3:58:21.920 --> 3:58:25.160 charged with evidence tampering and being an accessory after the fact. 3:58:25.760 --> 3:58:28.400 Prosecutors alleged that she helped clean and sell the car 3:58:28.880 --> 3:58:33.560 used to plant the bomb and asked chat GPT how 3:58:33.640 --> 3:58:37.480 to obtain a Chinese visa and transfer properties in her 3:58:37.520 --> 3:58:40.480 brother's name, and searched for Chinese schools for her brother 3:58:40.560 --> 3:58:44.960 to attend. Her brother is still suspected to be in China. 3:58:45.520 --> 3:58:48.960 Look, I am stunned that these people didn't accidentally blow 3:58:49.040 --> 3:58:49.600 themselves up. 3:58:49.960 --> 3:58:52.240 Well, The reason why is because it's actually very hard 3:58:52.280 --> 3:58:52.880 to build a bob. 3:58:53.120 --> 3:58:55.000 Yeah, oh yeah, I guess, I guess we'll because when 3:58:55.000 --> 3:58:57.080 you're trying to build a bomb, there's three outcomes, right, 3:58:57.360 --> 3:59:01.480 there's one you failed to build a bomb. You either 3:59:01.600 --> 3:59:03.160 succeed to build a bomb, or fail to build a 3:59:03.160 --> 3:59:05.440 bomb and it blows you up, or you successully build 3:59:05.440 --> 3:59:08.800 a bomb and cecily building a bomb is like that hard, 3:59:09.400 --> 3:59:13.960 and it's you're pretty likely to blow yourself up or 3:59:14.680 --> 3:59:17.520 fail to build a bomb. So I guess, I guess 3:59:17.560 --> 3:59:19.680 I never got to the threshold a bomb building where 3:59:19.680 --> 3:59:22.200 it would blow themselves up because they just didn't produce 3:59:22.280 --> 3:59:23.840 it viable device. 3:59:24.520 --> 3:59:30.320 In this next bombing plot, the suspect did actually construct 3:59:30.400 --> 3:59:32.640 what could be considered a bomb. Oh good Lord, that 3:59:33.200 --> 3:59:35.840 could have been used in what's being reported on as 3:59:35.960 --> 3:59:40.800 an assassination plot. Last Thursday, a New Jersey man, Alexander 3:59:41.080 --> 3:59:44.320 Heifler was arrested as a part of a plot to 3:59:44.480 --> 3:59:49.440 firebomb the home of pro Palestinian activists Ner Dean Kiswani 3:59:50.200 --> 3:59:53.880 Jesus Christ. Alexander Hiffler is a member of the JDL 3:59:54.360 --> 3:59:58.960 six one three Brotherhood, a new offshoot of the terrorist group, 3:59:59.120 --> 4:00:03.160 the Jewish Fence League, which has been active at Palestine 4:00:03.200 --> 4:00:06.840 protests in New York the past few years. This is 4:00:06.960 --> 4:00:11.040 a Zionist extremist group that has been designated in the 4:00:11.080 --> 4:00:15.960 past by the FBI as extremist group. According to the 4:00:16.040 --> 4:00:19.480 criminal complaint, Heifler was in a group video call with 4:00:19.600 --> 4:00:23.040 an undercover officer last February in which he asked about 4:00:23.040 --> 4:00:26.400 receiving training quote for how to use the instruments that 4:00:26.520 --> 4:00:30.400 were not knives, guns, or crossbows for quote unquote self defense. 4:00:30.960 --> 4:00:36.560 That's an odd, odd phrasing in the complaint, cross not okay, 4:00:36.960 --> 4:00:41.520 things that aren't those things okay, great things happening here, 4:00:41.920 --> 4:00:44.800 and Heifler later specifically mentioned that he was looking for 4:00:44.960 --> 4:00:47.040 somewhere to throw molotovs. 4:00:47.400 --> 4:00:47.800 Oh boy. 4:00:48.360 --> 4:00:53.520 The undercover sent Heifler a message via an encrypted messaging application, stating, Hey, 4:00:53.920 --> 4:00:57.920 let's talk about that in person. Don't say that on here. 4:00:58.400 --> 4:01:02.960 Heifler responded, don't use the M word. Copy that the 4:01:03.120 --> 4:01:08.600 M word, apparently being molotov. Incredible operational security happening year. 4:01:09.120 --> 4:01:11.360 The next day, the two met in person. Heifler told 4:01:11.400 --> 4:01:13.760 the undercover that molotovs were easy to make and they 4:01:13.800 --> 4:01:17.440 discussed targeting the home of pro Palestinian activist Nerden Kiswani. 4:01:18.160 --> 4:01:21.840 Heifler talked about needing to obtain fake license plates and 4:01:22.160 --> 4:01:24.960 told the undercover that he had an escape plan to 4:01:25.080 --> 4:01:28.840 flee the country. At the end of April, Mayor Zoramumdani 4:01:29.000 --> 4:01:34.200 clarified online that Heifler intended to flee to Israel. Great 4:01:34.560 --> 4:01:37.320 to quote Heifler in their criminal complaint quote, I'm thinking, like, 4:01:37.560 --> 4:01:41.200 if we wanted to go after Kiswani, we have Kiswani's address, 4:01:41.640 --> 4:01:44.120 so it's like that that would be easier if you'd 4:01:44.160 --> 4:01:47.400 be more comfortable with that. Drive down to Kiswani's home, 4:01:47.680 --> 4:01:51.000 middle of April, no IDs, no phones, in and out 4:01:51.320 --> 4:01:55.240 unquote Great. A few weeks later they met up again 4:01:55.480 --> 4:01:59.680 and drove to Kiswani's home to conduct surveillance. Hifler told 4:01:59.680 --> 4:02:01.520 the under cover that he had done tests with a 4:02:01.600 --> 4:02:04.760 molotov and a DNA kit from a pharmacy, and because 4:02:04.800 --> 4:02:07.120 his DNA showed up on the test, they should wear 4:02:07.240 --> 4:02:10.600 gloves during the attack. A real genius at work. 4:02:11.160 --> 4:02:12.760 Oh my god. 4:02:13.200 --> 4:02:16.080 The plan was to build twelve molotovs and throw several 4:02:16.160 --> 4:02:19.760 at the home and two at cars parked outside. Heifler 4:02:19.880 --> 4:02:22.680 mentioned having an address they could hide out before he 4:02:22.760 --> 4:02:27.200 would then flee to Israel. On March twenty sixth, they 4:02:27.280 --> 4:02:30.320 met at Heifler's home to start making the molotovs, and 4:02:30.480 --> 4:02:34.520 after the assembly, law enforcement searched the home and Heifler 4:02:34.640 --> 4:02:37.280 was arrested and has since been charged with unlawful possession 4:02:37.360 --> 4:02:41.640 and making of a destructive device. Great stuff. I very 4:02:41.720 --> 4:02:43.000 glad they didn't pull this off. 4:02:43.400 --> 4:02:46.640 And also, Jesus Christ, you know something like this. 4:02:46.760 --> 4:02:49.480 It is interesting that this was a joint with the FBI, 4:02:50.040 --> 4:02:53.120 that the current FBI was was doing like a sort 4:02:53.160 --> 4:02:57.320 of sting operation like this with the Jewish Defense League. 4:02:57.600 --> 4:02:58.240 Is interesting. 4:02:58.560 --> 4:03:00.760 That is that is something that I think people may 4:03:00.840 --> 4:03:06.160 not have expected. The undercover was part of the furthering 4:03:06.240 --> 4:03:07.760 of this plan in some ways. 4:03:07.880 --> 4:03:08.440 I don't know. 4:03:08.880 --> 4:03:11.080 We don't know if this guy would have done this 4:03:11.240 --> 4:03:15.600 exact attack if not planned with the undercover. But this 4:03:15.720 --> 4:03:19.520 guy was very very clearly willing and able to hurt 4:03:19.640 --> 4:03:23.840 and possibly kill this pro Palestinian activist, a very prominent 4:03:23.920 --> 4:03:27.920 one at that. Lastly, let's talk about Pink News and 4:03:28.200 --> 4:03:30.160 the Idaho bathroom bill. 4:03:30.560 --> 4:03:31.960 Oh my fucking god, yeah. 4:03:32.080 --> 4:03:34.520 So. Earlier this week, I released an episode and an 4:03:34.640 --> 4:03:38.760 accompanying article online on what I've dubbed the trans panic 4:03:38.840 --> 4:03:42.080 clickbait economy. My reporting goes through a series of misleading 4:03:42.160 --> 4:03:44.400 viral claims about the attacks on trans people from the 4:03:44.400 --> 4:03:47.920 Trump administration and Red States that have been recently flooding 4:03:48.080 --> 4:03:51.080 the zone and overwhelming the senses with an endless stream 4:03:51.120 --> 4:03:55.440 of forecast to doom. These viral claims are usually based 4:03:55.520 --> 4:03:59.480 on some irresponsible reporting designed to drive in an engagement 4:03:59.600 --> 4:04:02.160 rather than inform about the very real dangerous trans people 4:04:02.200 --> 4:04:05.920 are facing. This kind of clickbait treats every horrific potentiality 4:04:06.280 --> 4:04:11.400 as an inevitable eventuality, undermining our capacity to accurately assess 4:04:11.520 --> 4:04:15.840 risk and effectively dedicate resources to oppose pressing threats. One 4:04:15.880 --> 4:04:19.760 of the key outlets profiting from the panic clickbait economy 4:04:19.840 --> 4:04:24.120 right now has been Pink News in LGBTQ news outlet, 4:04:24.360 --> 4:04:27.280 which we learned last month is pivoting to a quote 4:04:27.360 --> 4:04:30.000 unquote reporter free newsroom. 4:04:30.440 --> 4:04:33.160 Incredible and just We're one of the most Aurelian things 4:04:33.160 --> 4:04:37.160 I've ever heard. Just holy fuck, just just on a 4:04:37.280 --> 4:04:41.520 base level of like, just oh, my reporter free newsgroup. 4:04:43.480 --> 4:04:45.280 Because of this change, one of the one of the 4:04:45.360 --> 4:04:49.040 journalists there, I've already quit, with four others possibly being 4:04:49.120 --> 4:04:53.520 laid off shortly. The sort of editorial department of pink 4:04:53.640 --> 4:04:56.120 News is now being taken over by their social media 4:04:56.240 --> 4:04:59.320 content creation wing and some of like the editorial staff, 4:04:59.360 --> 4:05:04.160 which are repackaging press releases and stealing the work of 4:05:04.320 --> 4:05:07.560 other journalists, including some other journalists who may be engaging 4:05:07.920 --> 4:05:10.920 in this sort of misleading reporting attempting to drive their 4:05:10.920 --> 4:05:13.240 own engagement. Then pink News is using that framing to 4:05:13.320 --> 4:05:15.400 drive their own engagement. That's why this sort of panic 4:05:15.480 --> 4:05:19.160 economy is a whole economy. It feeds on itself. 4:05:19.800 --> 4:05:19.920 Now. 4:05:20.040 --> 4:05:23.360 On March thirtieth, pink News published an article that went 4:05:23.480 --> 4:05:27.680 viral online that claimed Kentucky was quote to pass a 4:05:27.760 --> 4:05:31.800 bill that would declare trans people mentally ill unquote, as 4:05:31.880 --> 4:05:35.400 well as prohibiting trans people from teaching in schools. But 4:05:36.200 --> 4:05:39.840 a report from an actual Kentucky based journalist named Olivia 4:05:39.920 --> 4:05:44.080 Croft for the outlet Queer Kentucky clarified that no such 4:05:44.200 --> 4:05:47.600 bill was going to pass. The push for a bill 4:05:47.720 --> 4:05:51.000 declaring trans people as mentally ill was by a single 4:05:51.120 --> 4:05:55.080 Republican state senator named Gex Williams Jesus Christ. 4:05:55.640 --> 4:05:57.280 So yeah, pause there. 4:05:58.160 --> 4:06:03.160 Williams and Gex could not even accomplish the first step 4:06:03.360 --> 4:06:07.440 in the legislative process, getting the Senate committee assignment for 4:06:07.640 --> 4:06:11.280 this prospective bill. Gex then tried to turn his failed 4:06:11.360 --> 4:06:14.440 bill into a floor amendment slapped onto a separate bill 4:06:14.480 --> 4:06:17.640 that was expected to pass, but such an amendment still 4:06:17.760 --> 4:06:21.400 requires a vote on approval separate from the vote to 4:06:21.520 --> 4:06:24.720 pass the bill itself. Olivia Croth reported that this amendment 4:06:24.760 --> 4:06:28.000 does not have such support from other legislators and that 4:06:28.200 --> 4:06:31.760 GEX was expected to withdraw his amendment for breaking Senate 4:06:31.840 --> 4:06:35.680 rules on piggybacking failed bills onto different bills as an amendment. 4:06:36.120 --> 4:06:38.760 And even if this amendment somehow got through, the bill 4:06:38.800 --> 4:06:40.680 would then need to be sent back to the state 4:06:40.760 --> 4:06:43.160 House for approval and would spark a huge fight that 4:06:43.320 --> 4:06:46.400 the legislature does not have time for because the legislative 4:06:46.440 --> 4:06:51.160 season is now wrapping up. So after this article from 4:06:51.200 --> 4:06:54.280 pink news was fact checked by this really good journalist 4:06:54.320 --> 4:06:58.400 doing doing important reporting in Kentucky, pink News then deleted 4:06:58.480 --> 4:07:01.000 this article and the viral posts plugging it. 4:07:01.520 --> 4:07:03.040 But any corrections to. 4:07:03.160 --> 4:07:06.720 This false story do not spread nearly as far as 4:07:06.800 --> 4:07:10.640 the initial panic inducing claim. And like that's crucial here 4:07:10.720 --> 4:07:13.360 because the night that this article went out on pink News, 4:07:13.560 --> 4:07:17.760 literally my entire feed was full of dozens and dozens 4:07:17.840 --> 4:07:21.000 and dozens people all quote tweeting this pink News story 4:07:21.440 --> 4:07:23.560 and the fact check and the fact that pink news 4:07:23.640 --> 4:07:26.040 deleted this is not going to get spread in that 4:07:26.160 --> 4:07:29.280 same way now. Misleading stories like this distract from the 4:07:29.480 --> 4:07:32.360 very real attacks Republicans are waging in red states. Yeah, 4:07:32.800 --> 4:07:36.840 one of which one of a few was on Monday, 4:07:37.040 --> 4:07:39.480 the governor of Idaho signed a new bill into law 4:07:39.520 --> 4:07:43.320 that criminalizes trans people using the bathroom that matches their gender, 4:07:44.000 --> 4:07:49.520 including bathrooms in private businesses. A first defense would be 4:07:49.520 --> 4:07:52.280 a misdemeanor with punishable by up to a year in prison. 4:07:52.840 --> 4:07:55.640 Second offense within five years would be a felony, punishable 4:07:55.640 --> 4:07:57.640 by up to five years in prison. And this would 4:07:57.640 --> 4:08:01.120 be prison housed based on quote unquote biological sex at birth, 4:08:01.240 --> 4:08:04.880 which leads to abuse of trans inmates. This is the 4:08:05.000 --> 4:08:07.840 most extreme bathroom bill that this nation has seen so far, 4:08:08.280 --> 4:08:10.680 the most restrictive affecting private businesses. 4:08:11.000 --> 4:08:14.440 And this is sort of very very intense criminal punishment. Yeah, 4:08:14.600 --> 4:08:17.280 and It's also worth noting in ways there are very 4:08:17.320 --> 4:08:19.800 ple trans people are also just criminalized at an extremely 4:08:19.880 --> 4:08:23.760 high rate, and these felony charges would count for Idaho's 4:08:23.760 --> 4:08:28.920 three strikes law, which is a fucking nightmare. This and 4:08:29.000 --> 4:08:33.480 we also got the Supreme Court ruling on Tuesday which 4:08:33.880 --> 4:08:38.720 applies a significantly stricter level of scrutiny to any like 4:08:38.920 --> 4:08:42.440 ban on conversion therapy, which is probably going to end 4:08:42.520 --> 4:08:45.760 up killing a whole bunch of conversion therapy bans across 4:08:45.800 --> 4:08:47.640 the country, which, by the way, eight to one ruling, 4:08:47.920 --> 4:08:52.320 so a bunch of liberal justices also fucking agreed with this. Yeah, 4:08:52.360 --> 4:08:54.120 I like that shit is like actually happening. And then 4:08:54.160 --> 4:08:57.640 meanwhile we have this like haddock slop bullshit that people 4:08:57.680 --> 4:09:01.200 are using to get money, and it's incredibly frustrated. 4:09:01.800 --> 4:09:04.280 Yeah, it makes it harder to actually evaluate the news 4:09:04.360 --> 4:09:08.360 as it's happening and trust certain news from certain sources, 4:09:09.240 --> 4:09:11.000 because we all know that these attacks are real, Like, 4:09:11.040 --> 4:09:13.440 there are real attacks going on that are really bad, 4:09:13.720 --> 4:09:15.480 but we do need to focus on the ones that 4:09:15.640 --> 4:09:18.800 actually are real. As opposed to a single state senator's 4:09:18.840 --> 4:09:21.200 amendment to a bill which is never going to pass, 4:09:21.880 --> 4:09:25.120 taking up all of the oxygen one night. Meanwhile, literally 4:09:25.200 --> 4:09:27.800 that same day, a bill like this Idaho bathroom bill 4:09:27.880 --> 4:09:29.120 is being signed by the governor. 4:09:29.400 --> 4:09:29.600 Yeah. 4:09:30.240 --> 4:09:32.840 Well, on that note, I think that does it for 4:09:33.000 --> 4:09:34.840 us here at it could happen here. 4:09:35.160 --> 4:09:37.760 Put a transgirl on your couch, I guess, especially also 4:09:37.880 --> 4:09:41.480 now trans people from Idaho who are going to be 4:09:41.600 --> 4:09:46.920 fleeing and presumably believe very large numbers and great and good. 4:09:47.880 --> 4:09:49.400 We reported the news. 4:09:50.120 --> 4:09:51.080 We reported the news. 4:09:57.400 --> 4:10:00.520 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 4:10:00.640 --> 4:10:02.480 from now until the heat death of the universe. 4:10:03.280 --> 4:10:05.760 It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4:10:05.960 --> 4:10:08.960 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4:10:09.080 --> 4:10:12.600 foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 4:10:12.720 --> 4:10:15.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4:10:16.040 --> 4:10:17.960 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, 4:10:18.000 --> 4:10:19.800 listed directly in episode descriptions. 4:10:20.200 --> 4:10:20.960 Thanks for listening.