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Speaker 1: Alz Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: The past few weeks, my social media feeds have been

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Speaker 3: more apocalyptic than usual, Oddly enough, not due to the

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Speaker 3: escalating war with Ron, the shell shocked economy, or oil prices,

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Speaker 3: but because of a wave of posts and news articles

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Speaker 3: proclaiming impending doom for trans people in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Attacks on trans writes are obviously not new and have

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Speaker 3: steadily risen the past ten years, but this recent collection

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Speaker 3: of worrying claims are especially grim or out right genocidel.

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Speaker 3: Justice month, I've seen viral posts citing online articles saying

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Speaker 3: that ICE is going to round up and quote unquote

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Speaker 3: disappear trans people, that the FDA is making a quote

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Speaker 3: unquote registry of trans women, and that an adult trans

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Speaker 3: healthcare ban is imminent. Welcome to It Could Happen Here?

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Speaker 3: A show about things falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis. For

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Speaker 3: this episode, I'd like to emphasize the could in it

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Speaker 3: could happen here.

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Speaker 4: It's not.

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Speaker 3: It will definitely happen here, and there's nothing you can

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Speaker 3: do to stop it. These panic inducing claims and the

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Speaker 3: articles they're sourced from are referring to real things or

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Speaker 3: movements happening in either right wing activism or anti trans

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Speaker 3: policy and legislation, but are framed in a way to

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Speaker 3: maximize catastrophe rather than actually understanding what's happening at the

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Speaker 3: moment and what we can do about it. To unchecked panic,

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Speaker 3: clickbait reduces the process of staying informed to being in

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Speaker 3: a state of constant doom and feeling hopeless against an

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Speaker 3: unstoppable enemy. Or it makes someone completely check out and

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Speaker 3: not believe anything they see online even if there is

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Speaker 3: a real pressing threat, both of which cloud our ability

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Speaker 3: to assess and respond to very real threats. For the

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Speaker 3: book of this episode, I'm going to focus on an

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Speaker 3: article that claims ICE is now permitted to detain anyone

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Speaker 3: for quote unquote looking trans. This reporting and the online

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Speaker 3: discussion around It is a microcosmatic example of how we

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Speaker 3: understand both the Trump administration's attacks on trans people and

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Speaker 3: how and why ICE operates as an agency. This story

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Speaker 3: can be traced to a sub stack post with the

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Speaker 3: headline trump administration opens the door for ICE to target

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Speaker 3: anyone suspected of being trans. The sub headline continues by

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Speaker 3: reading quote, under a new rule, the State Department will

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Speaker 3: be able to revoke trans people's visas over quote unquote misrepresentation.

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Speaker 3: It'll give ICE grounds to suspect all trans people of

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Speaker 3: being in the US illegally unquote. The information contained in

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Speaker 3: this headline is the furthest many people will engage with

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Speaker 3: the content of this article. Combining that headline with preconceived

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Speaker 3: notions about how ICE functions under the second Trump administration

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Speaker 3: makes us a very frightening claim. So what evidence does

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Speaker 3: the subset article include to support this claim? Earlier this month,

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Speaker 3: the State Department updated its policy for the Diversity Immigrant

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Speaker 3: Visa program, also known as the Green Card Lottery. The

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Speaker 3: new rules require that applicants upload a scan of their

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Speaker 3: foreign passports, biographic and signature page to cut down on

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Speaker 3: fraudulent diversity visa program entries. The policy update also changed

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Speaker 3: the gender entry to sex on application forms policy will update.

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Speaker 3: The State Department wrote, the marker reflected in the sex

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Speaker 3: field on any visa application, including the entry form, should

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Speaker 3: match the applicants' biological sex at birth, even if that

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Speaker 3: differs from the sex listed on the applicants foreign passport

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Speaker 3: or other identifying documentation.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: The substack article claims this could force a quote mismatch

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Speaker 3: between trans people's applications and their passports, something it can

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Speaker 3: then use to declare their applications fraudulent and disqualify them

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Speaker 3: entirely on quote. The first half of that sentence is true.

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Speaker 3: A mismatch may occur between the gender listed on foreign

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Speaker 3: documents and the sex the US government wants you to

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Speaker 3: list on a visa application, but it is simply not

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Speaker 3: the case that this mismatch will inevitably result in an

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Speaker 3: application being deemed fraudulent and then denied the kind of

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Speaker 3: fraud this rule change is trying to combat by requiring

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Speaker 3: a passport scan is not unique to trans people, according

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Speaker 3: to Melita Picasso, staff attorney for the ACLUS LGBTQ and

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Speaker 3: HIV Rights Project. Picasso said in an email that the

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Speaker 3: new rule quote seems to more directly target fraudulent activities

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Speaker 3: involving third parties basically entering the lottery on behalf of

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Speaker 3: individuals without their knowledge and consent, and then extorting them

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Speaker 3: for large amounts of money if they are selected.

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Speaker 4: Unquote.

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Speaker 3: The stipulation requiring an applicant to list their biological sex

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Speaker 3: at birth on forms has actually already been State Department

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Speaker 3: policy for both immigrant and non immigrant visa applications for

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Speaker 3: over a year, effectively since Trump's executive order mandating the

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Speaker 3: those government officially recognized two biological sexes which are determined

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Speaker 3: at birth, and that quote government issued identity documents, including visas,

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Speaker 3: and all forms that require an individuals sex, shall accurately

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Speaker 3: reflect an individual's immutable biological classification as either mail or email.

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Speaker 5: Quote.

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Speaker 3: There's just no basis for the claim that a mismatch

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Speaker 3: between the gender listed on a foreign document and the

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Speaker 3: sex marked on application forms will itself quote unquote disqualify

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Speaker 3: someone from receiving a visa. ACLU staff attorney Melita Picasso

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Speaker 3: told me that the new policy itself recognizes this could

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Speaker 3: cause discrepancies, and that she doesn't see a quote new

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Speaker 3: or heightened risk of being accused of fraud or wilful

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Speaker 3: misrepresentation if a transgender person follows the instructions by listing

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Speaker 3: their sex assigned at birth on the application, even if

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Speaker 3: they also file a per certificate that has been updated

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Speaker 3: to reflect their gender identity.

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Speaker 1: Quote.

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Speaker 3: The State Department has been aware for a while that

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Speaker 3: this kind of policy will create these kinds of mismatches.

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Speaker 3: A February twenty twenty five State Department memo reads, quote,

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Speaker 3: there may be instances when a consular officer becomes aware

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Speaker 3: that the sex listed on the foreign passport may not

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Speaker 3: be the applicants sex as defined in the executive order.

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Speaker 3: In such cases, the adjudicator should confirm the applicant sex

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Speaker 3: as defined in the executive order, indicate that sex on

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Speaker 3: the visa, and add a case note documenting any discrepancy

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Speaker 3: between the passport and the visa to prevent issues at

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Speaker 3: the port of entry unquote. Later, in April of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, the United States Citizenship Immigration Services officially updated

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Speaker 3: their policy on requiring quote unquote biological sex on immigration applications.

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Speaker 3: The policy also states that quote USCIS does not deny

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Speaker 3: any immigration benefits solely based on a failure to properly

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Speaker 3: indicate that benefit requesters sex unquote. Acale U staff attorney

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Speaker 3: Milita Picasso told me that USCIS officials have quote unquote

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Speaker 3: a lot of discretion and that the policy says that

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Speaker 3: failure to list biological sex quote will cause delays in

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Speaker 3: processing the application while USCIS tries to verify your sex

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Speaker 3: assigned at birth unquote. Now, the State Department has said

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Speaker 3: there are grounds to deny these applications for trans people

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Speaker 3: if they make a quote willful affirmative material act of

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Speaker 3: misrepresentation by misrepresenting their quote unquote biological sex at birth

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Speaker 3: in application forms or to a consular officer to gain

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Speaker 3: entry to the United States under false pretenses. Legally qualifying

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Speaker 3: as willful mess representation is a relatively high bar, and

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Speaker 3: this language was specifically written with the intent to restrict

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Speaker 3: trans athletes from entering the country to play sports. The

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Speaker 3: sort of misrepresentation the State Department is talking about is

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Speaker 3: if a trans woman quote unquote misrepresents her birth sex

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Speaker 3: to procure a visa or admission into the United States

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Speaker 3: for the purpose of competing in a women's sports competition.

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Speaker 3: This same sports relo, dated February twenty fourth, twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: also states quote, if there is a discrepancy either in

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Speaker 3: the applicants documents or in electronic constantly records, or if

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Speaker 3: other evidence casts reasonable doubt on the applicant sex, you

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Speaker 3: should refuse the case under two two one G and

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Speaker 3: request additional evidence to demonstrate sex at birth.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: Section two two one G of the Immigration and Nationality

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Speaker 3: Act is a temporary visa refusal pending further documents or

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Speaker 3: information provided by the applicant. For an athlete visa, the

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Speaker 3: bar is very high and the burden is on the

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Speaker 3: applicant to prove they have the special un rare qualities

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Speaker 3: required to be eligible for a visa. But the substat

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Speaker 3: article doesn't just claim that being trans could disqualify you

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Speaker 3: from receiving a visa. The article escalates its claims, stating

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Speaker 3: that trans people who already have a valid visa could

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Speaker 3: have it revoked and be deported for misrepresenting their sex

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Speaker 3: in the past, citing US law that if if an

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Speaker 3: alien is found to have obtained a visa quote by

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Speaker 3: fraud or wilfully misrepresenting a material fact, they are ineligible

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Speaker 3: to be in the United States. The article also refers

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Speaker 3: to a section of the Foreign Affairs manual, which includes

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Speaker 3: providing quote a fake birth certificate in support of an

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Speaker 3: immigrant visa application as misrepresenting a material fact unquote. The

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Speaker 3: article goes on to assert that the Trump administration could

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Speaker 3: refuse to recognize trans people's amended birth certificates from foreign

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Speaker 3: countries and essentially consider them quote unquote fake, thus making

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Speaker 3: their visa eligible to be revoked by quote unquote misrepresenting

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Speaker 3: a material fact. The author of the substack links to

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Speaker 3: another one of her own articles on a new policy

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Speaker 3: regarding the issuing of US passports with sex markers reflecting

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Speaker 3: biological sex at birth. The passport policy instructs the state

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Speaker 3: parmer employees to check birth certificates for signs of being amended,

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Speaker 3: and if they are amended, request more documents that list

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Speaker 3: sex at the time of birth, such as medical records,

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Speaker 3: hospital records, or early school records. ACLA staff attorney Picasto

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Speaker 3: says that this does not mean entire amended birth certificates

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Speaker 3: or quote unquote fake for the purposes of establishing fraud

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Speaker 3: or willful misrepresentation, which is again a high bar, and

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Speaker 3: that Trump administration has never argued this as such.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: I think it's dangerous to even suggest that illegally obtained

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Speaker 3: and valid birth certificate could be viewed as quote unquote

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Speaker 3: fake without a much clearer statement from the federal government

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Speaker 3: to that effect. Picasto advised in Trump's recent travel bands,

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Speaker 3: they have specifically mentioned the availability of fabricated birth certificates

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Speaker 3: in certain countries. And this whole claim about trans people's

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Speaker 3: visas being revoked because of applications of misrepresentation is contradicted

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Speaker 3: by the State Department, which said last year quote currently

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Speaker 3: valid US visas issue du prior to the effective date

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Speaker 3: of this guidance bearing a sex that differs from the

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Speaker 3: visl holders sex as defined in Executive Order will remain

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Speaker 3: valid through its expiration date. The visa holder does not

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Speaker 3: need to apply for a new visa with an amended

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Speaker 3: sex marker until the current visa expires. So the first

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Speaker 3: half of this article covers what I argue are gross

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Speaker 3: misrepresentations of State Department visa policy. The second half of

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Speaker 3: the article speculates on how this misrepresentation could be enforced

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Speaker 3: by ICE in it Supreme Court ruling last year, just

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Speaker 3: as Kavanaugh wrote that ICE could detain people based on

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Speaker 3: a combination of factors such as working a certain kind

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Speaker 3: of job, ethnicity, and speaking Spanish or talking with an accent.

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Speaker 3: Kavanaugh said that ICE can detain someone for questioning quote

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Speaker 3: if they have a reasonable suspicion based on specific articulable facts,

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Speaker 3: that the person being questioned is an alien illegally in

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Speaker 3: the United States. The author of this substacked article argued

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Speaker 3: that Kavanaugh's concurrence quote unquote effectively permitted ICE to use

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Speaker 3: the fact that someone looks trans as the quote specific

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Speaker 3: articulable fact, allowing its officers to question, harassed, detain, and

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Speaker 3: even deport both citizens and non citizens as long as

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Speaker 3: it has a reason to claim that being trans makes

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Speaker 3: a person more likely to be in the US illegally unquote,

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Speaker 3: with this substacker adding that because of State Department policy

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Speaker 3: requiring applicants to list biological sex at birth on forms quote,

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Speaker 3: ICE now have the enforcement rationale to assert that trans

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Speaker 3: people are more likely than says people to have misrepresented

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Speaker 3: themselves during the visa process and therefore are more likely

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Speaker 3: to have entered the country unlawfully unquote. This assertion from

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Speaker 3: this substacker rests on the idea that looking trans makes

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Speaker 3: someone more likely to be in the US illegally. This

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Speaker 3: idea is not supported by any immigration policy memo or

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Speaker 3: guideline that also assumes that the justification for a Kavanaugh

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Speaker 3: stop is the same as the legal process of removal,

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Speaker 3: which it is not. This idea was invented by the

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Speaker 3: author of this article, It's not based on any enforcement

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Speaker 3: directive from ICE, and misrepresents what the State Department means

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Speaker 3: by intentionally misrepresenting biological sex in the visa application process.

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Speaker 3: Discrepancies in gender markers across government documents is not itself

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Speaker 3: grounds for detention or deportation. In fact, it's federal policy

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Speaker 3: to create such discrepancies. Furthermore, dealing with potential discrepancies between

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Speaker 3: gender markers on foreign documents and the Trump Admin's insistence

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Speaker 3: on only using biological sex at birth on federal documents

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Speaker 3: is handled by State Department consular officers and USCIS employees,

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Speaker 3: not ICE Enforcement and Removal operations officers who work under

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Speaker 3: an entire different agency. But the main thing that makes

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Speaker 3: me believe that ICE will not suddenly start targeting people

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Speaker 3: for being trans is that this State department policy requiring

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Speaker 3: sex at birth on visa applications isn't actually new. It's

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Speaker 3: existed in some form since February twenty twenty five for

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Speaker 3: both immigrant and non immigrant visas. The only recent change

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Speaker 3: is that the Green card lottery rules have been updated

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Speaker 3: to use this same language. Quote. Nothing about this new

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Speaker 3: rule makes it more or less likely that ICE will

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Speaker 3: be free to scrutinize trans people's documents and detain those

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Speaker 3: whose documents show any inconsistencies unquote, affirmed a CLUS staff

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Speaker 3: attorney Melita Picasso put plainly, state department restrictions on stating

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Speaker 3: assigned sex at birth on Green card or visa applications

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Speaker 3: does not give ICE any new justification to roam around

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Speaker 3: disappearing random people who quote unquote to look trans. But

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Speaker 3: it could make border crossings more risky for non citizens,

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Speaker 3: and visa applications harder to navigate and subject to delays.

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Speaker 3: This policy from the State Department is bad, but turning

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Speaker 3: that into saying that ICE is now going to round

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Speaker 3: up trans people and vcode them doesn't understand how this

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Speaker 3: will actually affect immigrant trans people or trans people currently

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Speaker 3: in federal custody.

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Speaker 1: Side note.

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Speaker 3: Vcoding refers to this systematic enabling of sexual abuse towards

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Speaker 3: incarcerated transfomen to please mail prisoners. Near the end of

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Speaker 3: the substack article, the author suggests that transpeople in Kansas

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Speaker 3: could be at extra risk of getting detained by ICE

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Speaker 3: because of a new law invalidating driver's license and birth

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Speaker 3: certificates with amended gender markers, possibly leaving some US citizens

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Speaker 3: temporarily unable to prove citizenship with a valid birth certificate.

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Speaker 3: This new law is certainly dangerous, and any attempt to

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Speaker 3: strip a people's legal ID is very worrying and carries

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Speaker 3: potential for abuse. In the case of Kansas, already having

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Speaker 3: a passport would be really ideal. Otherwise, a hospital birth

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Speaker 3: certificate or early school records can theoretically be used to

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Speaker 3: help prove citizenship, and it is worth saying that a

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Speaker 3: citizen temporarily losing documentation does not put them at the

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Speaker 3: same level of marginalized risk as an undocumented immigrant. The

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Speaker 3: new Kansas law does direct the Office of Idle Statistics

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Speaker 3: to quote reissue birth certificates when necessary to correct this

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Speaker 3: sex identification unquote. Similarly, DMVs were instructed to reissue a

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Speaker 3: quote unquote corrected license once the invalidated one was turned in.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back, who

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Speaker 3: it could happen here. The unsubstantiated claims made in that

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Speaker 3: substack article went viral across multiple social media platforms like TikTok,

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Speaker 3: Blue Sky, and Twitter, bolstering further speculation. Social media posts

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Speaker 3: further extrapolated the potential harm facing trans people by ICE

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Speaker 3: agents beyond the claims made in the article by saying

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Speaker 3: that ICE will now deport or disappear trans citizens. Anyone

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Speaker 3: who tried to push back on the legitimacy of those

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Speaker 3: claims were labeled dangerous or fence for trying to quote

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Speaker 3: unquote downplay the threat posed by ICE. Assertions of new

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Speaker 3: pressing danger in this back and forth discourse largely took

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Speaker 3: three forms. One saying that because ICE is already doing

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Speaker 3: X bad thing, that means they could also start doing

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Speaker 3: this new bad thing. Two people asserting that ICE is

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Speaker 3: in fact actually already doing this, and three arguments based

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Speaker 3: on distrust of the government and ICE's general lack of legality.

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Speaker 3: Much of the discussion emerged from the genuine belief that

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Speaker 3: ICE has been granted new power or has been quote

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Speaker 3: unquote authorized to detain someone for looking trans, that Trump

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Speaker 3: has quote unquote opened the door for ICE to start

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Speaker 3: profiling trans people, that, like the Streame Court's ruling last year,

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Speaker 3: profiling has been essentially greenlit for trans people, or that

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Speaker 3: checking the consistency of gender markers has been added to

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Speaker 3: ICE's quote unquote jurisdiction. And to be one hundred percent clear,

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Speaker 3: there's not been any new ICE memo or policy related

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Speaker 3: to transpeople, gender markers, or documentation being in their jurisdiction.

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Speaker 3: State department policy on requiring biological sex on applications has

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Speaker 3: existed for over a year. The real danger posed by

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Speaker 3: this policy is that more trans immigrants could have their

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Speaker 3: visas delayed or, in extreme cases, denied. People may need

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Speaker 3: help navigating this increasingly confusing application process. Still, people have

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Speaker 3: tried to assert that ICE's intentional targeting and profiling of

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Speaker 3: people for being trans was quote unquote already happening. In

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Speaker 3: the past year, ICE has detained transpeople. It's hard to

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Speaker 3: get exact numbers on this because ICE stopped collecting detention

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Speaker 3: data for trans people last year to comply with Trump's

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Speaker 3: anti trans executive orders, though we do know of attempts

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Speaker 3: to deport transpeople from news reporting. Last August, ICE detained

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Speaker 3: a transwoman who over stated a visa by six years,

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Speaker 3: and in November, a transwoman who lost her lawful permanent

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Speaker 3: residence status in twenty twenty three after pleading guilty to

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Speaker 3: a felony was quote unquote inadvertently deported to Mexico despite

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Speaker 3: a court order specifically barring her from being sent to Mexico.

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Speaker 3: We have no evidence that these women were targeted for

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Speaker 3: removal on the basis of being trans, but what happened

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Speaker 3: to them is still horrific. As of now, there has

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Speaker 3: been no reporting on people being targeted for detention based

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Speaker 3: on looking trans, because the government has not actually argued

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Speaker 3: that being trans itself qualifies as reasonable suspicion of illegal presence.

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Speaker 3: When I voiced skepticism about the claims sourced from this

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Speaker 3: substack article, people responded to me saying that even if

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Speaker 3: this has yet to happen, one could argue that ICE

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Speaker 3: still could expand their operations to include profiling and targeting

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Speaker 3: trans people for detention, since they're already profiling and rounding

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Speaker 3: up quote unquote random brown people. After all, this podcast

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Speaker 3: is called it could Happen here, and ICE has detained

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Speaker 3: both citizens and legal immigrants and sent them to quote

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Speaker 3: unquote camps. Though this show is called it could happen here.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean we should spread unsubstantiated doom spiraling, disconnected

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Speaker 3: from the material reality of real policies, advancing a fascist project.

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Speaker 3: The Trump administration has been very clear and open about

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Speaker 3: targeting groups of people flooding through our southern border. That

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Speaker 3: is who ICE is designed to target, and they have

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Speaker 3: policy directing them to do so and new permission from

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. It is true that ICE has temporarily

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Speaker 3: detained US citizens when looking for people they suspect our

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Speaker 3: undocumented immigrants. This has been for two reasons. US citizens

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Speaker 3: accused of interfering with ICE activity while protesting, or because

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Speaker 3: ICE suspects US citizens may be undocumented based on factors

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Speaker 3: like skin tone, occupation, or speaking a foreign language, usually Spanish.

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Speaker 3: This second group of people then must demonstrate proof of

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Speaker 3: citizenship or if they are immigrants, they're legal status. The

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Speaker 3: period they're detained is supposed to be relatively short, usually

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Speaker 3: a few hours, though in extreme cases that's stretched into

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Speaker 3: multiple days. When I posted about this online, someone sent

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Speaker 3: me a Wikipedia article claiming it proved that ICE has

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Speaker 3: deported one hundred and seventy US citizens during Trump's second term.

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Speaker 3: The article actually said one hundred and seventy citizens have

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Speaker 3: been detained since Trump took office. Again, there have been

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Speaker 3: a few reported instances of US born citizens being deported.

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Speaker 3: These are citizen children who are deported with immigrant parents

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Speaker 3: to avoid child separation, though many many children do end

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Speaker 3: up being separated from their parents when their parents are deported.

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Speaker 3: The last argument that people fall back on is simply

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Speaker 3: that ICE is a completely lawless agency and it can

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Speaker 3: do whatever it wants, including going after trans people. After all,

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Speaker 3: ICE has murdered US citizens on camera in broad daylight,

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Speaker 3: but it's important to remember that happened for a reason.

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Speaker 3: Those weren't random acts. ICE and CBP murdered people protesting

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Speaker 3: ICE rates targeting their immigrant neighbors. Federal agents killed people

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Speaker 3: because the protesting was an inconvenience and there was use

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Speaker 3: of force policy and training directing them to do so.

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Speaker 3: For decades, CBP agents have killed people at the border

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Speaker 3: and gotten away with it. The Trump administration may not

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Speaker 3: care about the law, but this analysis is not based

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Speaker 3: on any assumptions about legality. It's based on the administration's

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Speaker 3: own stated goals, which they've been very open about, and

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Speaker 3: the policies and practices currently in effect, none of which

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Speaker 3: relate to ICE targeting people for quote unquote looking trans.

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Speaker 3: From what we know, the Kavanaugh stops framework have never

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Speaker 3: been used to target trans people for being trans as

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Speaker 3: the reasonable suspicion of being illegally in the country, and

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Speaker 3: there's been no changing guidelines saying that being trans can

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Speaker 3: be the basis for said stops. Asserting otherwise is simply false.

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Speaker 3: Insisting that because of State Department application policy, ICE will

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Speaker 3: now randomly arrest transpeople is conflating two very different things.

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Speaker 3: This isn't about the potential legality of ICE targeting transpeople.

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Speaker 3: I'm simply saying there is no such directive instructing ICE

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Speaker 3: to do that. Asserting that the Trump administration is completely

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent unbounded by law also ignores the fact

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Speaker 3: that federal and immigration courts are still in active terrain

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Speaker 3: of battle. While the administration has repeatedly ignored courts and

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Speaker 3: judges orders. People have also been successfully released from ICE

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Speaker 3: custody by filing habeas corpus petitions. It's not that I

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Speaker 3: believe in the personal integrity of ICE agents, far from it.

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Speaker 3: But this concept of ICE as this vague fascist desk

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Speaker 3: squad that will go after any group the Trump administration hates.

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Speaker 3: Turns ICE into this abstract idea rather than a single

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Speaker 3: material agency with concrete motivations and limits that leaves a

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Speaker 3: wake of destruction in the course of achieving their purpose.

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Speaker 3: ICE does raids where there's high concentrations of immigrant workers.

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Speaker 3: The targeting isn't actually random. ICE is going after undocumented

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Speaker 3: immigrant workers, sometimes using skin and language as a rough

401
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 3: proxy to do document checks. To assert the inevitability of

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00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: ICE going after trans people, people invoke comparisons to the Nazis,

403
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 3: and as rhetorically useful as it is to equate ICE

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Speaker 3: to a modern version of the Gestapo. This is not

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Speaker 3: Germany in the nineteen thirties. ICE is a contemporary version,

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00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 3: but the current world is different. The chronically online doomer

407
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 3: may retort, but once ICE is done with immigrants, then

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00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: they will go after trans people. After all, what's the

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00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: purpose of increasing ICE is staffing and funding or building

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Speaker 3: a network of tension camps across the country, if not

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Speaker 3: to use them against the undesirables. There's about fifteen million

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Speaker 3: undocumented immigrants in the United States and about three million

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Speaker 3: trans people. That's five times as many undocumented immigrants than

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Speaker 3: trans people. Last year, ICE reached a record high number

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Speaker 3: of deportations, over six hundred thousand. This number still leaves

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Speaker 3: millions and millions of undocumented immigrants. ICE will never be

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Speaker 3: quote unquote done with immigrants. This logic again reduces ICE

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Speaker 3: to this vague, abstract evil and fails to consider the

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Speaker 3: purpose of ICE and why it currently operates as it does.

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Speaker 3: So what motivates ICE? Do Individual ICE agents share the

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00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: same motivations as the agency itself or the people directing it.

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Speaker 3: Individual agents certainly could be motivated by racism, political ideology,

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Speaker 3: a paycheck, or a combination thereof, but the motivating forts

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Speaker 3: across the entire agency cannot solely be based on ethnicity itself,

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Speaker 3: or else you wouldn't see as many Hispanic ICE and

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Speaker 3: CBP agents. People tend to think of hate as a

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00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: vague causal force itself, rather than it being the result

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00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 3: of complex societal factors shaped by material forces like the economy, jobs,

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00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: in security, and housing shortages. These material forces are often

430
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: expressed as racial or ethnic prejudice, but the underlying motivation

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Speaker 3: of ICE as an agency and by extension, DHS, still

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Speaker 3: rests on material forces, not racial hatred as an abstract ideal.

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Speaker 3: Rank and file employees could have entirely different motivations compared

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Speaker 3: to some of those at the top of the agency

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Speaker 3: or the agency as a whole, and people in charge

436
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: of the agency may themselves even be confused as to

437
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 3: the material motivations that underline the existence of immigration enforcement agencies.

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00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: But this lack of alignment is a weakness in the

439
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 3: agency and DHS more broadly, as demonstrated by the fallout

440
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: of Operation Metro Surge in Minneapolis, which left ICE and

441
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: DHS in a compromised state. So why does ICE exist?

442
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: What material role does it fulfill? It seeks to stabilize

443
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: the social order by targeting surplus populations, and what's the

444
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: most efficient way to do that by going after the

445
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: most marginalized populations with the least amount of legal and

446
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: economic protections, which are undocumented immigrants. This operation maybe sold

447
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: to the public, and indeed it's enforcers by marketing it

448
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 3: in the language of race and crime categories, which are

449
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: often equated, But underneath that, it's still an attempt to

450
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: solve problems caused by material economic forces. In reality, this

451
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: material motivation establishes a certain direction of impact, as well

452
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: as material limits like budget, personnel, and balancing between public

453
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: approval and public opposition. So with that in mind, does

454
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: it make sense to claim that Immigration and Customs Enforcement

455
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: is going to conduct the targeted mass detention of trans

456
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 3: people as a class?

457
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: Signs point to know.

458
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: It's not that I disagree with the idea that trans

459
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: people are under threat from the government, but they're under

460
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 3: a different threat than that of undocumented immigrants or people

461
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: detained by ICE based on profiling. Obviously, trans immigrants have

462
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: an overlapping threat vector. As such, migrant support should remain

463
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: focused on things like ICE Watch, rapid response networks, and

464
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: providing immigrants legal resources, including to trans immigrants who madeed

465
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 3: assistance navigating the visa process, and working to get people

466
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: out of ICE detention. The latter is especially important considering

467
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: Trump's executive order forcing transwomen in federal custody to be

468
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 3: detained with men and Trump administration's plan to end federal

469
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: prison rape protections for trans people. But most people engaged

470
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: in this discourse genuinely don't understand how state department policy

471
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 3: on visa applications will actually affect trans immigrants and what

472
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: we can then do to support trans immigrants, But this

473
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: whole discourse takes the focus away from the people most

474
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: at risk of ICE, which are still undocumented immigrant workers.

475
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 3: Lilith in Seattle with a one hundred and fifty thousand

476
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: dollars a year tech job is not at high risk

477
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: of being detained by ICE. Believing otherwise prohibits people who

478
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: are actually safe and secure from using their wealth and

479
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: status to support others who do not have the same

480
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: safety provided by wealth or status, whether they're transgender and

481
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: immigrant or both. Misleading articles in the larger panic driven

482
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: information economy encourages people with financial or legal security to

483
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: be scared into paralysis because they believe that any amount

484
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: of opposition to the government will result in being disappeared

485
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: to a concentration camp. This justifies a retreat from the

486
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: world by framing it as safety, allowing one to focus

487
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: on maximizing their own power and wealth to achieve security.

488
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: Retreating solely into the rule of the victim achieves a

489
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: sort of emotional catharsis, but this also alienates you from

490
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: the world and ends up doing propaganda for the enemy.

491
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: In this discourse, there's a tendency to make the enemy

492
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: out to be an unstoppable monster, which further justifies in

493
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: action because it doesn't allow you to understand the limits

494
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: of the enemy, whether logistical or ideological, and resigns us

495
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: to power before an omnipotent all powerful evil. ICE operations

496
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 3: are an expensive, unpopular, destabilizing thing. We must keep an

497
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: eye on the fragility of power, as that informs us

498
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 3: on how to fight it. When removed from action in

499
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: the real world, people have no way to confront truth.

500
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: It is a frightening time to be transgender. On top

501
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: of what feels like never ending attacks on healthcare and

502
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: our ability to exist in public life. You now see

503
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: news stories about a US state invalidating people's IDs, at

504
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: the same time as viral social media posts claim ICE

505
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 3: has been given new authority to detain transpeople and deport

506
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: immigrants for having the wrong gender marker. Various attacks on

507
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 3: trans rites separated through time, could be viewed as a coherent,

508
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: centralized strategy towards a singular, horrific end, but they also

509
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: may be in fact disparate, often petty attempts at cruelty,

510
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: intending to demoralize transpeople and make translife prohibitively difficult. The

511
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: way Red states and the Trump admin are trying to

512
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: eliminate transgenderism, as Michael Knowles would say, is to simply

513
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: make it incredibly difficult to socially and medically transition, like

514
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 3: by not recognizing gender on government documents, be excluded from

515
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: public bathrooms, and continuing efforts to restrict healthcare. Will do

516
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: one more break and return for a final segment. The

517
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: state of catastrophic fear I've been talking about is maintained

518
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: by a near constant wave of articles with panic inducing headlines,

519
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 3: which fuel social media posts that further escalate and abstract

520
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: claims maiden headlines to a Nazi Germany esque level of

521
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: potential danger facing trans people. One such impending danger circulating

522
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: online this month is the claim that the FDA is

523
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 3: making a registry of trans women and moving to crimin

524
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: diy estrogen. This claim originated from an article in a

525
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 3: trans news outlet published March twelfth, reporting that anti trans

526
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: lobbying groups sent a petition to the FDA to create

527
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: a registry of transwomen who take estrogen and restrict the

528
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 3: use of feminizing HRT, which if implemented, could quote fast

529
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: track a pathway to criminalizing estrogen use. Importantly, this citizens

530
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: petition is not US law or proposed government legislation, nor

531
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 3: is it FDA policy or regulation. It was written by

532
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 3: an anti transactivist coalition and sent to the FDA over

533
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 3: three months ago in December of twenty twenty five. The

534
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 3: petition requests quote unquote immediate action by establishing a new

535
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 3: docket for the public to officially comment on the safety

536
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 3: and effectiveness of estrogen in gender transitions, and to schedule

537
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: a public hearing on the subject. That is mainly what

538
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 3: the petition is for, though it doesn't make further recommendations

539
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: following the conclusion of a public hearing. These recommendations include

540
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 3: adding a warning label to estrogen, conducting a safety review,

541
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: having clinicians report adverse effects to the FDA, and requiring

542
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: the drug manufacturers quote establish a patient registry as a

543
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: part of a risk evaluation and mitigation study to capture

544
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: real world safety data unquote, and that is the registry

545
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: mentioned in this panic headline. This article, or more accurately

546
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 3: distorted versions of its claims, went viral across trans Twitter,

547
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: with tens of thousands of likes and hundreds of thousands

548
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 3: of quote unquote views, but the article received strong pushback

549
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: on Blue Sky for being quote unquote sensationalist and inflammatory.

550
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: The outlet that originally published the story later updated the article,

551
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 3: clarifying that the FDA receives hundreds of petitions a year,

552
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: and even if implemented, they can take years to go

553
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: into effect. Twenty thirteen, only six point six percent of

554
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: FDA citizen petitions were approved and resulted in new regulation.

555
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 3: A study from twenty sixteen found that, on average, quote,

556
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 3: these petitions require two point eighty five years for a

557
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: final agency decision, and many decisions remain pending ten to

558
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 3: thirteen years after their initial submission unquote. This FDA petition

559
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 3: story was not the only article this month theorizing about

560
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: a trans registry or adult HRT restrictions. In mid March,

561
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: multiple LGBTQ news outlets reported that Republican lawmakers in Tennessee

562
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: advanced a bill that would quote unquote create a public

563
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: list of trans residents in the state. The bill in

564
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: question mandates insurance companies also covered d transition, and would

565
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 3: require that care providers submit statistics on gender affirming care

566
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 3: to the Tennessee Department of Health, which must quote not

567
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 3: contain individually identify information defined in HIPPA unquote. The Tennessee

568
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: Department of Health would then use that information to make

569
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: a publicly available statistics report. But online accounts are spreading

570
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: this story as if Tennessee is making a quote unquote

571
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: sex offender style public registry with the names and locations

572
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: of all trans people in this state. A bill like

573
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 3: this could potentially be used for harm, and it may

574
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: face court challenges for possibly violating parts of HIPPA by

575
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: collecting data on county of residents and procedure dates. But

576
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: the reporting on the bill and the viral reaction online

577
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: make it out to be something completely different. There's no

578
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 3: reason to believe this bill would create a publicly accessible

579
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: registry or list identifying trans people by name in this state.

580
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: The bill has not yet passed the state Senate, and

581
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: it may not in its current form. Right now, it's

582
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: unclear what exact form the collected data will take with

583
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: in a statistics report and what level of anonymizing data

584
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: aggregation will be employed. This is something to keep an

585
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 3: eye on if the bill does pass and the state

586
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: Department of Health drafts guidelines for the mandatory statistics reporting,

587
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 3: But the way it's being reported is incredibly misleading. Interestingly,

588
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: the source for this public list claim is the same

589
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: substec outlet that created the false story about ICE now

590
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: being able to detain people for looking trans. Also earlier

591
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: this month, multiple LGBTQ news outlets reported that the Fourth

592
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: Circuit Court approved state bans on gender affirming healthcare for adults.

593
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 3: On March tenth, a Republican appointed three judge panel of

594
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 3: the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that states can

595
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: prohibit gender affirming surgery from being covered by Medicaid. The

596
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: ruling affirmed ban on Medicaid coverage for quote sex change

597
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: surgeries in West Virginia, with the panel arguing it doesn't

598
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 3: discriminate against trans people because it applies to specific procedures,

599
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: not specific individuals. This is certainly bad news for trans

600
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: people in West Virginia on Medicaid, but reporting that this

601
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: decision could soon result in trans people losing healthcare in

602
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 3: other states or nationally is misleading and removes key context.

603
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: This is not a total ban on these procedures. It's

604
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 3: a ban on state Medicaid coverage of these surgical procedures.

605
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 3: The ruling is not a ban on other forms of

606
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 3: gender affirming healthcare. Like HRT, nor does it threaten the

607
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 3: hospital's ability to receive Medicare and Medicaid funds for providing

608
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: gender affirming healthcare, like the Trump administration has threatened so

609
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 3: far unsuccessfully. Still people postulated on how this ruling could

610
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 3: be laying the legal groundwork to eliminate adult transgender healthcare,

611
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: but trans journalist to David Forbes noted that this ruling

612
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 3: will likely be appealed to wider Fourth Circuit, which has

613
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: recently ruled in the opposite direction of this three panel ruling.

614
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: What paniced assertions of an impending total ban on trans

615
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 3: healthcare tends to overlook is that going from a state

616
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,479
Speaker 3: ban on Medicaid coverage for surgery straight to an all

617
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 3: ages ban on gender affirming healthcare skips a lot of steps,

618
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: and those steps are crucially important. The panic, clickbait induced

619
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: doomer mindset treats every horrific potentiality as an inevitable eventuality.

620
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: This undermines our ability to accurately assess risk and effectively

621
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 3: dedicate resources to oppose what are pressing threats. So what

622
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 3: purpose does this sort of posting serve and why are

623
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: people so primed to believe it? These panic driven claims

624
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: rest on the very real fact that trans people are

625
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: facing present danger. Oftentimes, people boosting these panic stories are

626
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 3: genuinely trying to help inform their own community of potential harm.

627
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: In the case of that ICE story, it was based

628
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: on the assumption that there was a legitimate recent rule

629
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 3: change enabling iceo target people under suspicion of being trans.

630
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 3: It makes sense that people would want to raise the

631
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: alarm about ICE gaining new powers. But acel U staff

632
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 3: attorney Melita Picasso cautioned, quote, we are supporting our community

633
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 3: by trying to warn people, but these warnings need to

634
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 3: be clear and accurate, otherwise we end up inadvertently contributing

635
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 3: to the chaos and fear unquote. Other times, these panic

636
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: stories are spread with the hope of scaring allies into

637
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: caring about the ongoing attacks on trans people. Perhaps this

638
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 3: is successful in some cases, I don't know. But as

639
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 3: a side effect, this strategy deals significant damage to the

640
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 3: people it's trying to protect. Forecasting doom twenty four to

641
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: seven can drive people into hopeless despair and push them

642
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: away way from strategies to fight against the current attacks

643
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 3: on trans rights. Panic driven agit prop could also contribute

644
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 3: to a girl who Cried Wolf scenario where allies start

645
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: to discount concerns about certain attacks on transrights due to

646
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 3: previous unsubstantiated viral claims. Though many people spreading these claims

647
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: may have genuinely good intentions, the people creating these claims

648
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 3: may develop certain material incentives. Traditional mainstream journalism has failed

649
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: to question the massive government overreach into the lives of transpeople,

650
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 3: and in some cases helped manufacture consent for the stripping

651
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 3: away of trans rights. This state of affairs has made

652
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 3: trans people lose faith in the big outlets, leading to

653
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 3: small upstart outlets filling in the information gaps in trans

654
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 3: news coverage, but without any institutional backing. Independent news sites

655
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: and sub stack style blogs have to build an audience

656
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 3: to generate traction and stay operating. It turns out thousands

657
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: of people constantly freaking out creates high social media engagement,

658
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 3: and this creates a loop where trans panic fearmongering boosts

659
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: social media engagement, which further encourages more irresponsible clickbait framing.

660
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: Those who are successful may slowly develop a new class position,

661
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: which then needs to be maintained. Financial incentives may even

662
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: pressure journalists who have done good work in the past

663
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 3: to fall back on panic driven engagement bait to attract

664
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: new traffic. This isn't exclusive to trans outlets either. Following

665
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: the assassination of Charlie kirk Ken, Klippenstein reported on his

666
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: substack that the FBI was about to quote designate transgender

667
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 3: people as violent extremists. His report contained no new, verifiable information.

668
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 3: The core evidence was an unnamed quote unquote senior official

669
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: who told the Clippenstein he quote unquote feels like trans

670
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 3: people could be labeled nihilist via extremists. Clippenstein has previously

671
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: misunderstood the nihilist violent extremism label. The term actually predates

672
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: the second Trump administration and refers to groups like seven

673
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: sixty four Child's extortion rings and communities like the school

674
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: shooter fandom TCC. Hours before Clippenstein's report was published, the

675
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: Heritage Foundation and the Oversight Project publicly released a petition

676
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: calling for a new classification of extremism called trans ideology

677
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 3: inspired violent extremism, to categorize attacks they believed are motivated

678
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 3: by transgender ideology. The petition memo denied that all trans

679
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 3: people and their allies would be designated domestic terrorists. Under

680
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 3: this label, only those who quote, encourage, promote, condone, take

681
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 3: or insight unlawful violent action or threats based on this

682
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: ideology unquote. The Heritage petition also runs contrary to Clippenstein's

683
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 3: report by advocating against the use of the nihilist violent

684
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 3: extremism label to describe transgender motivated violence. A Heritage petition

685
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 3: to establish a new category of extremism is different from

686
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 3: an unnamed official who feels like trans people as a

687
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 3: whole could be labeled as nihilist violent extremists, and it's

688
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: important to understand that distinction. That was last September. It's

689
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: now half a year later, and neither of these things

690
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: has come to fruition. The closest we got was in

691
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: late September, following Trump's Antifa Terrorism executive Order with the

692
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: National Security Presidential Memorandum Number seven, which listed quote extremism

693
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: on migration, race, and gender as common recurrent motivations and

694
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: indica of violent and terroristic activities under the umbrella of

695
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: self described anti fascism unquote, among many other threads animating

696
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: violent conduct. Regardless of that, people online interpreted both Clippenstein's

697
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 3: report and the Heritage petition as meaning the FBI classified

698
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 3: the entire class of trans people as domestic terrorists. Social

699
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 3: media both amplifies and distorts already misleading claims, turning news

700
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: into a massive game of telephone, and the siloing of

701
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 3: certain users and platforms makes countering this misinformation incredibly difficult.

702
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: The social media economy carries certain incentives for the producers

703
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 3: of panic bait that could be attention, status, and money,

704
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: but the consumers of panic also stand to gain something

705
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 3: catharsis justification for their actions or lack thereof, as well

706
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: as attention from fellow consumers. These clickbait panic pieces explode

707
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 3: around trans Twitter, which is still quite active, consisting of

708
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: sex workers, gamers, TTT style posters, and zoomers who think

709
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 3: Blue Sky is crunch and liberal. Some of these panic stories,

710
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 3: like the FDA A registry, don't do very well on

711
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 3: Blue Sky because that's where a lot of trans journalists

712
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 3: who do actual journalism are, but those journalists are not

713
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: active on Twitter and TikTok, making it harder to counter

714
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 3: our misinformation on those platforms. Countering trans paniclick bait also

715
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: suffers from algorithmic suppression because it doesn't get people as

716
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: riled up. A wave of emotionally charged doom posting is

717
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: boosted much farther than a calm and calculated rebuttal. The

718
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 3: biggest TikTok about ICE detaining people under suspicion of being

719
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: trans has one point two million views. The biggest TikTok

720
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 3: fact checking this claim has two hundred and ninety thousand views.

721
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 3: So much of social media politics is emotional manipulation based

722
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 3: on anger, fear, or catharsis. Posting about perceived danger is

723
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: essentially viewed as a form of activism, and if someone

724
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 3: casts a doubt on what's seen as an existential threat,

725
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 3: that person becomes emotionally equated with the enemy. Panic produces helplessness,

726
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: but helplessness can actually be cathartic for the individual. It's

727
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 3: not helpful for people currently in the most danger. So

728
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 3: then what is there to do in terms of the

729
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 3: trans panic information economy. Don't be afraid to openly question

730
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 3: the legitimacy of certain reporting due to fear of backlash

731
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 3: from the community. If it's good reporting, it should be

732
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 3: able to stand up to scrutiny. So when you see

733
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 3: a new story that triggers an emotional response. Stop a

734
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 3: moment before clicking share and find out where this claim

735
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 3: is coming from. A reliable journalistic outlet, an independent publication.

736
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 3: What other reporting has this publication done? Has it been accurate?

737
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 3: Who is the reporter? Are you familiar with their reporting?

738
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: What else have they reported on? Is it speculative? Are

739
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 3: there logical jumps without supporting evidence? Again, I'm not trying

740
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: to minimize the danger coming from a tax on trans people.

741
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 3: Quite the contrary, the right is continuing to take away

742
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 3: trans rights and these threats should be treated seriously. But

743
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 3: when trying to counter these real attacks, one must be

744
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: cautious about looking so far ahead into this speculative future

745
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 3: that it takes the focus away from the clear and

746
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: present harms. This isn't about trusting the government, It's about

747
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 3: understanding the world in order to change it. See you

748
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 3: on the other side. You can find a text version

749
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 3: of this episode on the Shatterzone substack, with hyper links

750
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 3: available for many of the terms or reporting referenced.

751
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me James,

752
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: and I'm very lucky to be joined by Marianne today.

753
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan diaspora, writer, photographer,

754
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk today and at about our shared

755
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: frustration with the left in this country talking about Venezuelan people,

756
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: but not to Venezuelan people. So thanks for.

757
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 6: Joining me tonight, Thank you for having me.

758
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that we've been trying to put

759
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: together for a while, and I'm really glad that we're

760
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: finally doing it. So I guess if I can just

761
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: frame this discussion, We've spoken about this extensively, so like

762
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure we won't need much much prompting. I do

763
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: not understand how people arrive at a position of identifying

764
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: as being leftists if they don't love and care about

765
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: other people, And if you love and care about other people,

766
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: then you should listen to them. And I am appalled

767
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan

768
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: voices for the most part, where people will talk to

769
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: Venezuelan's at all in the US press. It's far too

770
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: often people in the diaspora who are talking to the

771
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: right wing of media and highlighting what are sometimes recent

772
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: objections to Madulas, sometimes which are completely insane. But it's

773
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: a complete failing of us on the left to not

774
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: talk to people from Venezuela. Maybe you could just share

775
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: with us, like how it's been since January. To see

776
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: it offered it as a binary right. You can either

777
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: exist on the Maduro and people can live in poverty

778
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: and suffer, or you can watch your country get bombed

779
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: and choose like mcm like and none of this is happening.

780
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: Was asking you what you would like, Can you like

781
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: share how that's been.

782
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 6: Oh my god, it's been. It's been a wild ride.

783
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 7: I mean, there's a lot of different emotions going on,

784
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 7: which is one of the things that I think a

785
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 7: lot of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah,

786
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 7: just a lot of emotions. I mean I remember when

787
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 7: it first happened. I immediately messaged my family back home,

788
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 7: So my brother, my mom, my, my grandparents. My family

789
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 7: is from Karaka, so they were all right. They were

790
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 7: just saying, you know, it's calm where where we are,

791
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 7: it's fine. But yeah, the immediate thing was concerned. Then

792
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 7: obviously I couldn't sleep that night because of everything that

793
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 7: was going on. I live in Europe, so by that

794
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 7: time it was like, I don't know, it was like

795
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 7: five in the morning or something eight in the morning.

796
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 7: I don't remember it was. It's all just a blur

797
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 7: to me now, but I remember I was just like

798
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 7: on my phone seeing the updates like every minute, trying

799
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 7: to contact my friends who did live in Karakas, and

800
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 7: they were just saying, yeah, like we hear bombs. We

801
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 7: don't know what's going on. And then eventually, like some

802
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 7: people started saying that they bomb liked some strategic military

803
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 7: basis or like in Paracio Mira Flores, which is the

804
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 7: presidential house, and so everyone was like all over the place,

805
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 7: and then we got all this information that they took

806
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 7: Maduro whatever.

807
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 6: And then at that point it was just like Okay, concern, worry.

808
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 7: Confusion, and then joy because not because the place was

809
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 7: bombed by Americans, but because this guy was like taken

810
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 7: away who he deserves.

811
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 6: Worse than prison, to be honest.

812
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 7: But then concern again because what are the Americans gonna

813
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 7: do now? So it was just a lot of different

814
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 7: things going on, Like I think a lot of people,

815
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 7: including myself, were just like paralyzed by all these different emotions,

816
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 7: like joy because again, this guy who has done horrible

817
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 7: things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his

818
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 7: crime somewhere, but at the same time fear because of

819
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 7: what is going to happen next.

820
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 6: I mean, we're not dumb, we know what the US

821
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 6: is capable of.

822
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 7: So it was a little bit of both of those

823
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 7: feelings after we knew what had happened. And ever since

824
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 7: then it has been just a struggle because of course

825
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 7: there's a lot of misinformation going out there. It's been

826
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 7: frustrating because I see many of my people's voices being

827
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 7: silenced by people on the left. And then also you

828
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 7: have a lot of people on the right like appropriating

829
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 7: our narrative to like push their own pro American propaganda whatever.

830
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 7: So it's kind of just like everyone's trying to like

831
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 7: appropriate or steal their own narrative and suffering for their

832
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 7: own gain, and the left and the right are doing

833
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 7: both like equally. Yeah, So it has been kind of

834
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 7: frustrating because I mean every time I even just try

835
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 7: to leave a comment on Instagram or say something, I'm

836
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 7: called a fascist like Trump supporters, Cia Masade agent whatever.

837
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 7: And you know, it's frustrating to see so many people

838
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 7: because most of the people I follow are like leftists, right,

839
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 7: But I've unfollowed like seventy percent of the people I

840
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 7: used to follow because they started posting like Promaduro stuff

841
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 7: and talking about how he was so great whatever.

842
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 6: And you know, it has been very.

843
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 7: Defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to go

844
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 7: to nobody supporting us, because again, one side just wants

845
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 7: to rob us from our resources and steal a narrative

846
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,959
Speaker 7: to like push their own agenda. But then the other

847
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 7: side is like completely denying or calling us like all

848
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 7: these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right, So

849
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 7: it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah,

850
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 7: it has been a lot, to the point where I think,

851
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 7: I mean, do I even have a place in the

852
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 7: world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it

853
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 7: has been very difficult, right yeah, yeah, yeah.

854
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 6: Very disheartening.

855
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 7: But then yeah, like if that's why I told you about.

856
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 6: The baseball thing recently, it was.

857
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 7: Kind of like the positive thing, like a because one

858
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 7: of the good things about that game is that people

859
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 7: were finally like getting to know us and how we're

860
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 7: actually good people, and that was kind of like a

861
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 7: pick me up after how horrible life has been since

862
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 7: January third, So yeah.

863
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like people obviously like undervalue sport. I think

864
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: they do. I wrote a book about sport and anti fascism,

865
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: so I'm kind of predisposed to this disposition. But like,

866
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: these moments of joy are really important, and like the

867
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: God knows, the world tries to rob us of joy

868
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: at the moment, so that we should embrace them and

869
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: enjoy them and not feel like we had We are

870
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: like obliged to be sad because of all the sadness

871
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: in our worlds. Yeah, I think something you said that

872
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: like struck home with me. Are two things I guess

873
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: let's address the first one. It is fundamentally a colonial

874
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: impulse to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable

875
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: of speaking for themselves, so you must speak for them,

876
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: right Like. That is something that I have seen, not

877
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: just now, but for years about Venezuela, right Like, it

878
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: must have been really frustrating to see this kind of

879
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: campiss tendency to literally steal like the voice of Venezuelan

880
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: people to speak on their behalf.

881
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's nothing new though, I mean I remember when

882
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 7: I was in college it was kind of the same.

883
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 7: Like there were I think it was like twenty seventeen.

884
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 7: There were some protests and people were saying all sorts

885
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 7: of things, and I remember losing a lot of my

886
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 7: friends in college because of that, because I was saying, like,

887
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 7: you know, it's more complicated than that, like you know,

888
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 7: actually people do dislike this person for this, this and

889
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 7: this reason. And yeah, I remember losing a lot of

890
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 7: friends because of that. Maybe not a mental breakdown, because

891
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 7: it was just like a right.

892
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

893
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 7: I remember even at one point I went to like

894
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 7: a cafe. It was one of these like calfes where

895
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 7: people right on the walls and it said like fuck Venezuelan,

896
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 7: and I was just like, what a fucking dystopia am

897
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 7: I living in? And I also used to work at

898
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 7: a front desk and this guy somehow found out that

899
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 7: I was Venezuelan and he started saying like, oh, Madulu's

900
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 7: the best, like whatever, and my boss had to come

901
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 7: in and like take the guy away because he was

902
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 7: just being really like rowdy.

903
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 6: Right, So yeah, it's calm.

904
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, in fact, us like when we introduce ourselves, like

905
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 7: we don't say that we're Venezuelan and immediately just because

906
00:59:57,920 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 7: it can be dangerous at times.

907
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, especially now we have this combination of like

908
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: we we've discussed this, but like on the on the right,

909
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: venez will and people are all perceived to be fucking

910
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: members of trend Ragua now and then yeah, it's that

911
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: or you line up behind the regime. And even when

912
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: those two things like are not as distinct as people

913
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: you know sometimes in their imagination see them, or that

914
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: they're also not as joint as other people in their

915
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: imagination see them. Yeah, it doesn't give you a place

916
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: to express your identity, right, you just have to fit

917
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: into someone else's box. Yeah, something else you said really

918
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: struck me, Like there seems to be and again it's

919
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 1: like it's not distinct from the colonial impulse, right, I

920
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: think about the uplift civilized and Christianized, or the white

921
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 1: man's burden or these like notions of people who were

922
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: subject to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of,

923
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: and like, what are the things I see? It is

924
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: like the idea that Venezuelan people are not aware of

925
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: United States imperialism. I lived with Chilean's in Caracas in

926
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: like the first decade of this century, right, Like people

927
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: were very extremely fucking aware, Like I live with people

928
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: who have been tortured because of because of United States imperialism.

929
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: They've played me to have our records and then told

930
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: me how they chopped his hands off, right, Like, Yeah,

931
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: you're a person on the left. You have an understanding

932
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: of the world and world politics, and you've studied and traveled,

933
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: But like, there is a cultural understanding of this right

934
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: which does not require one to attend university. Can you

935
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 1: explain how people because people are weighing on the one hand,

936
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: we have this malorda regime which is killing people, which

937
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: has imprisoning people, and which is acting as a fundamental

938
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: constrain on our autonomy. And on the other hand, we

939
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: have the Americans dropping bombs and we know what the

940
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: Americans have done, Yeah to this part of the world.

941
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: If you could just talk on that little bit, explain

942
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: how people live with that balance.

943
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 6: I think it's a combination of multiple things.

944
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 7: So first, I mean, for many years, the government horribly

945
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 7: mismanaged the country and then blamed the US for everything

946
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 7: that went wrong. I mean, there were moments in which

947
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 7: we knew and had proof that these problems were coming

948
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 7: directly from the regime's actions, and yet so many times

949
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 7: they simply lied about it and said that it was

950
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 7: the US's fault, to the point where many of us were,

951
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 7: you know, simply desensitized to the idea of US intervention.

952
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 7: It's a case of the boy who cried a wolf,

953
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 7: but in this case, it was the dictator who cried intervention.

954
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

955
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 7: Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every

956
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 7: cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except

957
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 7: to the people. Our resources have been going to other

958
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 7: country let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple,

959
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 7: and yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a

960
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 7: single cent of that. So at this point, we're used

961
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 7: to being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So

962
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 7: when people in the US say, hey, the US only

963
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 7: wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going

964
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 7: to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we

965
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 7: have already been living through that very same thing for decades,

966
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 7: and many believe that our material reality won't be affected

967
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 7: just because now it's someone else stealing out resources. If anything,

968
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 7: people are willing to see if these new guys, aka

969
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 7: the US, might do things differently now, whether that's right

970
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 7: or not, what it really speaks to I think is

971
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 7: I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate.

972
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 7: Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about

973
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 7: to get so much worse or so bad or whatever,

974
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 7: they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten.

975
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 7: I mean, I remember going to school during like the

976
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 7: worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal

977
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 7: dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image

978
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 7: I still have nightmares with. And I mean for a time,

979
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 7: I remember someone I knew dying or being killed every

980
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 7: single week.

981
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 6: The abuse and the torture we've endured at the hands

982
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 6: of this regime.

983
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 7: I mean, anyone can google, like what's going on in

984
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 7: places like Ellinikoire or La Pumba or any of the

985
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 7: other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience

986
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 7: mock in real executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals, rape,

987
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 7: being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of

988
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 7: medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly

989
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 7: desperate for a change, any change. And the fact is

990
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 7: that the global campus left ors me and my friends

991
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 7: have begun calling them the imperial Left, has done nothing

992
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 7: for us they've given us no sustainable solution, and if anything,

993
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 7: have completely sided with our pressors. So you know, if

994
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 7: Trump and says I recognize this regime is bad and

995
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 7: I'm going to do something about it, people are going

996
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 7: to take that. And this is what is so frustrating

997
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 7: to me is that many of these leftists will go

998
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 7: ahead and then criticize Venezuelans for siding with their enemies.

999
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 7: But what they don't see is that they have sided

1000
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 7: with ours, and at the end, all that does is

1001
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 7: make life even harder for us. We've gone so desperate

1002
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 7: that we've run directly into the hands of vultures because

1003
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 7: they're the only hands that we've been given. I personally

1004
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 7: don't love what the US is doing to our country,

1005
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 7: but I mean I understand why many Venezuelans have reacted

1006
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 7: the way that they have, and this is how I

1007
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 7: can best explain it to those who don't understand it.

1008
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 6: It's sad.

1009
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 7: I know, it's very sad, and it's hard for people

1010
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 7: who haven't lived through this to wrap their heads around

1011
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 7: this level of despair. But it's the simple truth, and

1012
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 7: it's a hard truth that I think many leftists need

1013
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 7: to hear and understand. And I say that as someone

1014
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 7: who is also saddened by this, because I want to

1015
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 7: see a more left leaning future, especially for my country.

1016
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 7: But I don't think it can happen if people don't

1017
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 7: start accepting realities like these.

1018
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: The other thing that gets collapsed a lot, I think,

1019
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: is a Venezuelan opposition, right. Like it is always amusing

1020
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 1: to see, Like I myself, I'm not a communist, right

1021
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: I'm not a state communist anyway. And I've seen like

1022
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: the Venezuelan Communist Party and the Communist youth of Venezuela,

1023
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: Like they'll put out a thing being like, we support opposition,

1024
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: and then you'll see people being like, oh, no, we're communists,

1025
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: but like like American communists who don't speak Spanish, Yeah,

1026
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: like I engaged with them. It's it's very funny to

1027
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 1: see that, like in their mind all opposition in Venezuela

1028
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: is of the right wing, like MTM, yeah, tendency right, Like,

1029
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: there are many very valid reasons where people on the

1030
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: left will be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel

1031
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: particularly isolating to be of the left and at the

1032
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: same time have this constant assumption that to be in

1033
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 1: an opposition you have to be of the right.

1034
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 7: It feels isolating when it comes to dealing with non Venezuelans,

1035
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 7: But when it comes dealing with Venezuelans, not really. I

1036
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 7: mean pretty much all of my friends, I mean as

1037
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 7: a queer artist, like most of my friends are also

1038
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 7: like pretty left leaning. Yeah, you have different kinds of

1039
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 7: people on the left, right, But but yeah, like when

1040
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 7: it comes to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating

1041
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 7: at all because precisely we already know what's going on.

1042
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 7: You know, we know that the that the opposition isn't

1043
01:07:58,840 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 7: just like.

1044
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 6: A right wing saying yeah, I don't know.

1045
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 7: It doesn't feel isolating because we know the political diversity

1046
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 7: that exists, right, Yeah, and so you just kind of

1047
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 7: have to find your tribe and it exists.

1048
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 6: Again, we're a.

1049
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 7: Country where people have all different sorts of opinions, and

1050
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:18,799
Speaker 7: so you know, between my Venezuela and friends, it seems

1051
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 7: pretty what's the opposite of isolating.

1052
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like inclusive, I guess.

1053
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1054
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 7: When it's dealing with my non Venezuelan friends, that's when

1055
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 7: it gets isolating because there's just not an understanding, Like

1056
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 7: they just don't seem to understand. No matter how much

1057
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 7: I try to break it down to them or how

1058
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 7: much I try to explain to them. I have been

1059
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:46,520
Speaker 7: successful and many of my good friends who are like leftists,

1060
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 7: most of them are anarchists. But when I do try

1061
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 7: to explain it to them, they do seem to understand

1062
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 7: because they know who I am and they know that

1063
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 7: I'm not like, you know, bullshitting them.

1064
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 6: But yeah, but again that doesn't mean.

1065
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 7: Like I told you earlier, I have lost many, many friends,

1066
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 7: and you know, have had to unfollow many people like

1067
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 7: I don't feel welcome in all, like leftists or even

1068
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 7: queer spaces sometimes because of what I think, which is,

1069
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 7: you know, a free Venezuela isn't just free from imperialism

1070
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 7: but also free from dictatorship.

1071
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 6: It's free from both.

1072
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, I shouldn't be controversial.

1073
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 7: But that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like,

1074
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,600
Speaker 7: they completely agree because it's similar to me. But my

1075
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 7: non Venezuelan friends or ex friends, as I should say,

1076
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 7: they just don't understand that at all.

1077
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: So it's always interesting. Like you know, I spent a

1078
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 1: good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the

1079
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: United States, so have recently arrived in the United States,

1080
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 1: and it's funny to see how people represent their operation

1081
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 1: to Maduro, like because at first I'll be like, oh,

1082
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: it's guys an American, so they're like, oh, it'd be great.

1083
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 1: The Americans came to liberate ats and like, you know,

1084
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: what a wonderful country. And then like, once people begin

1085
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more,

1086
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 1: everybody knows we don't have it all figure out either.

1087
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: Everybody knows the history right like, and then people, yes,

1088
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: of course have a wide and varied range of things

1089
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they

1090
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship yeah and

1091
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 1: stay violent.

1092
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 5: Yeah no.

1093
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 7: And I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful

1094
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,919
Speaker 7: thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because

1095
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 7: I may have differences with other people who may be

1096
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 7: moderates or right wing or whatever, but we've all united

1097
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 7: against this like bigger evil. And I think that's something

1098
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 7: that I wish actually the US could learn about, right

1099
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 7: putting their differences aside to actually like tackle that bigger evil.

1100
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 7: I think that's something that US should learn about us.

1101
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 7: How we've been able to do that. How you know,

1102
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 7: we can all say, you know, we may not agree

1103
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 7: on on how certain things are done, but we all

1104
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 7: agree on what needs to be done, which is you know,

1105
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 7: like getting rid of this regime, right, So yeah, I

1106
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 7: mean it's it's actually pretty pretty cool. And although it's

1107
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 7: not always easy because again, like you have, like in

1108
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 7: any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on,

1109
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 7: it is really nice to see everyone united for one

1110
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 7: thing and one reason and that's really the important thing.

1111
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 7: So so you know, I wish other countries could maybe

1112
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 7: learn a little bit about that too.

1113
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, left in this country could learn a lot from

1114
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: the way that, like a vast variety of left organizations

1115
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are

1116
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: more centrist, so straight up on the right, Yeah, to

1117
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: achieve at least one goal, with the understanding that they

1118
01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: still retain disagreements that are pro found.

1119
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 6: Other things exactly.

1120
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: That's something we can learn a lot from. And like,

1121
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm always kind of in awe of the capacity for

1122
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: solidarity that I see, especially from Venezuelan people, like and

1123
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: I think it comes from in part, like decades of

1124
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,920
Speaker 1: dictatorship and earn of hardship more generally, right, But like

1125
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 1: the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it

1126
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 1: together rather than for each person to get their own

1127
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 1: and sort of leave the rest behind. Yeah, it's remarkable, genuinely,

1128
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 1: like seeing again, like a lot of my experience, I

1129
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,759
Speaker 1: have not been in Karrakas for probably fifteen years, maybe longer.

1130
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 1: It's seeing people in the diaspora and migrants, but like

1131
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: people who have grown so used to the state ironically

1132
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've

1133
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 1: got used to just obtaining them and from each other. Like,

1134
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: even if those people are not anarchists, they are probably

1135
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: doing more mutual aid than people who spend a lot

1136
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 1: of their time being anarchists on the internet. Yeah, Like

1137
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful thing that we should be in aura

1138
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: of rather than invalidating. It's so many people on the

1139
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 1: left e.

1140
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 7: And I think that's something that really starts with our

1141
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 7: own crisis, because I remember at the height of the famine, right,

1142
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 7: I mean I'm speaking maybe like twenty thirteen fourteen around time,

1143
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 7: because by twenty seventeen, when there was like another big

1144
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,919
Speaker 7: like famine going on, I was not in Venezuela actually,

1145
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:34,640
Speaker 7: but I remember when that was happening, like it was

1146
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 7: very common, Like, hey, so in my backyard we had

1147
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:40,600
Speaker 7: plant takes and our neighbor had avocado, so you we

1148
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:45,520
Speaker 7: would like exchange things somebody needed anything, like if somebody's

1149
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,759
Speaker 7: grandmother needed like this medication that can only be found

1150
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:51,599
Speaker 7: in like this one place in Karakas, like. But then

1151
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 7: I didn't have gas, but maybe like my cousin had

1152
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 7: gas so that we could drive to Karakas like. So

1153
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 7: that's kind of how it worked back there, Like we

1154
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 7: had that solidarity towards each other, and I think obviously

1155
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,640
Speaker 7: if we go abroad, we're going to continue showing that

1156
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 7: same Yeah, I like that same attitude because it's just

1157
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 7: like part of who we are.

1158
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it just seems to be very much

1159
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 1: like part of the character of community. It's even like

1160
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: when I was there, you know, a decade before that,

1161
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: quite a decade maybe sometime before that. It's funny, I

1162
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 1: went to this place where they're having like a revolution

1163
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: which was extremely grounded in state power, and came out

1164
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: realizing that the state is not the vehicle for human

1165
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 1: liberation and the other people are just I just find this,

1166
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 1: this impulse on the left to invalidate and and like

1167
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: therefore refuse to learn from Venezuelan people so frustrating. It's

1168
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: like a mile phrase. But like what can people do?

1169
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 5: Right?

1170
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: Like, We're in a situation now where we have like

1171
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 1: Maduro without Maduda rail, but we have Delsa doing like

1172
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 1: tweeting how much he likes Donald Trump all the time.

1173
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: We are the worst of all possible outcomes. Really, right,

1174
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: we still have this apparatus for repression. But at the

1175
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: same time, the US is basically engaged in a colonial

1176
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: relationship of extraction of resources and anything else it wants

1177
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: from Venezuela. Like, how can people better be in solidarity

1178
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: instead of like trying to force you all into one

1179
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,559
Speaker 1: box or another box. Yeah, if we assume most of

1180
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 1: our audiences in Europe or the United States, right, and they, yeah,

1181
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: there haven't been big Like we're in solidarity with the

1182
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 1: Venezuelan anarchists or even the Venezuelan socialist or communists who

1183
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: are opposed to Maduro to DELTI Now.

1184
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 7: For non Venezuelans, I think the key thing is to

1185
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 7: speak about this from a complete perspective. The whole perspective,

1186
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,480
Speaker 7: because what's the issue. And I can tell you personally.

1187
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 7: Sometimes I see, I don't know, like anti imperialists, you know,

1188
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 7: US get out of ven Azula protests, and I would

1189
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 7: love to join because I want the US out of

1190
01:15:59,240 --> 01:15:59,919
Speaker 7: my country.

1191
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 6: But then I see them with pro Maduro.

1192
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:07,879
Speaker 7: Signs or just like free Maduro or you know, talking

1193
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 7: positively about the regime, and then I'm like, ugh, actually,

1194
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 7: I'm not going to participate in that. So you know,

1195
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:19,160
Speaker 7: you're actively excluding Venezuelan voices by doing these kinds of

1196
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 7: unilateral thing. And what do I mean by unilateral? So

1197
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 7: I understand that many let's say Western non Venezuelans are

1198
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 7: speaking and looking at things from their own perspective, which

1199
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:35,599
Speaker 7: is Trump is a bad guy.

1200
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:37,559
Speaker 6: He's not going to do anything positive.

1201
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 7: We know the history of the US, and so they

1202
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 7: are from their own perspective. They see what they're bad

1203
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 7: guy is doing, right right from the Venezuelan perspective, we

1204
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 7: also see what our bad guy is doing. Like we're

1205
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 7: speaking up about this particular bad guy more than what

1206
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:57,520
Speaker 7: we are about.

1207
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 6: Trump, the other bad guy.

1208
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 7: It's kind of like we have two different perspectives here

1209
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 7: and both are looking at their own right, And so

1210
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 7: the issue here is that those two perspectives are not combined, right.

1211
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:19,640
Speaker 7: So I would say the first thing you need to

1212
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 7: understand is that you know, I understand why you're looking

1213
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,080
Speaker 7: at things from your own perspective, but you also have

1214
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 7: to include Venezuelan perspectives in your activism in order for

1215
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 7: them to actually be productive towards the Venezuelan people, right,

1216
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 7: Because when you say, you know Fremaduro and you know

1217
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 7: us get out of Venezuela, you're still not addressing the

1218
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 7: necessities of the Venezuelan people, right, which is we need

1219
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 7: to get out of the regime. Sure, like one of

1220
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 7: those necessities is the US getting the fuck out of there,

1221
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:57,560
Speaker 7: but you're not addressing the main issue.

1222
01:17:57,160 --> 01:17:59,480
Speaker 6: That has plagued us for the past thirty years.

1223
01:17:59,840 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 5: Right.

1224
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 7: So when you're not doing that, and that's a dangerous

1225
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:07,720
Speaker 7: thing about you know, conversations like that of Venezuela or

1226
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 7: Cuba or even Iran as well. When you speak about

1227
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 7: things from one specific perspective, when you omit one side,

1228
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 7: you're making it seem like the other side is better,

1229
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,719
Speaker 7: when it should be abundantly clear that both the US

1230
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 7: and Maduda need to be out in order for Venezuela

1231
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 7: to actually be free. Right, So I think it's key,

1232
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:37,599
Speaker 7: it is very necessary that when we have these like

1233
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 7: free Venezuela protests, it's not just about the US, but

1234
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 7: it's also protesting the Madula regime, right because otherwise what

1235
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 7: you're going to do is you're going to exclude many

1236
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 7: people who also want the US to back off from

1237
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 7: your own protests.

1238
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 5: Right.

1239
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 6: And if you know it's it gets even.

1240
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:01,640
Speaker 7: Worse because I've seen Venezuelan activists actually getting you know,

1241
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 7: pushed out of conversations on Venezuela because they're talking about

1242
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 7: you know what I'm telling you right now, right, so

1243
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 7: they're talking about what the regime has done and maybe

1244
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 7: focusing on the regime well, also mentioning that the US

1245
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:18,400
Speaker 7: should like, you know, they know US history, but they're

1246
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 7: focusing on the Venezuelan perspective because it's a Venezuelan that's

1247
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 7: what you want to bring into the conversation, right, Like

1248
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 7: non Venezuelans can go ahead and out of that you know,

1249
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,000
Speaker 7: anti peerless part of the conversation or you know, perspective

1250
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 7: to the conversation. But they do need to make space

1251
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:36,640
Speaker 7: for the Venezuelans who also need to speak out of

1252
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,040
Speaker 7: the regime, right, So it needs to be a combination

1253
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 7: of both, and in your advocacy you have to include

1254
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 7: both at the same time always because again, if you

1255
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 7: don't speak about one, then you're sort of like portraying

1256
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 7: the other one is like the good side, right, And

1257
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 7: what that does is that continues to isolate Venezuelan's I mean,

1258
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,680
Speaker 7: including myself, Like I said, I can't even go to

1259
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 7: free and as well protest because I'm never going to be,

1260
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 7: you know, next to somebody chanting free ma duro.

1261
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1262
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 7: So that's like the key thing that the leftist, like

1263
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 7: non Venezuelan leftists need to understand.

1264
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot about how people on the

1265
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 1: left for some reason, and this is particularly odd with

1266
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: the fact that we have lived through a genocide in

1267
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 1: Gaza for two and a half years, the people seem

1268
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,640
Speaker 1: to only be able to understand solidarity with states and

1269
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: not with people. And we have the Palestinians right, a

1270
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 1: stateless nation. People seem to understand that there to an

1271
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,839
Speaker 1: extent right, albeit that for many people like Palatinians, statehood

1272
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 1: is a solution to the problem. It just seems to

1273
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,280
Speaker 1: be such a condemnation of the organizing or much of

1274
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 1: the left that people cannot and this is my general

1275
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 1: frustration with the world, well one of them. They can't

1276
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 1: think outside of the state model. They cannot conceive of

1277
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:08,240
Speaker 1: an alternative that does not already exist. Yeah, even though

1278
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 1: there are movements outside of the state right, like a

1279
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: Kurdish struggling in the north Easyria for example, it's one,

1280
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:18,639
Speaker 1: but like I don't know, like we should be able

1281
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: to dream of a better world or a beautiful life,

1282
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 1: and it seems like so many people have forgotten that

1283
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 1: that's what being on the left is about. And they

1284
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:32,440
Speaker 1: identify as revolutionaries, but they're extremely reactionary in their politics

1285
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:36,879
Speaker 1: and their goals. Like, yeah, it must be so strange

1286
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 1: to come from. I don't know how old you were.

1287
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 1: When do you remember like very early Chevismo.

1288
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 6: I remember parts of it is like a memory.

1289
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 7: So I was born in ninety seven, So okay, early

1290
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 7: Chevismo was like a fever dream.

1291
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 6: I remember, you know, during like the.

1292
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 7: And all that, and yeah, I would like go outside

1293
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 7: of like my apartment and it's like like go to

1294
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:03,559
Speaker 7: my window, Like we used to live in a building

1295
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 7: and we would like take out pots in like cast

1296
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 7: roles and start basing and everyone, and then that was

1297
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 7: like my favorite part of the day because I, as

1298
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 7: a kid, didn't really understand that it was a protest,

1299
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 7: but I loved banging on things.

1300
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:18,679
Speaker 6: So I remember that. I remember like my.

1301
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 7: Parents not being able to find certain things that maybe

1302
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 7: in the past they could find. I remember like at

1303
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 7: some points, like not being able to go to school

1304
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 7: because like there was something happening. It's like you're reallyving

1305
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 7: his own thing. But I remember thinking, I hope there's

1306
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 7: another cool so that I don't have to go to

1307
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:45,599
Speaker 7: school tomorrow. Yeah, that's kind of like what I remember

1308
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 7: of early Chevismore. I also remember as well, sort of

1309
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 7: seeing the division, and that to me is like the biggest,

1310
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 7: most impactful memory, right, the division that existed so on

1311
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 7: my family. I remember, just for context, like part of

1312
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 7: my family, half of my family is like middle class

1313
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:08,440
Speaker 7: and the other half of my family was working class,

1314
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:12,240
Speaker 7: like you know, brown working class from the coasts, right,

1315
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 7: so shout out to Okuma. So you know, it was

1316
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 7: like different realities, different necessities, And I remember both sides

1317
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 7: of the family arguing a lot, Like there was a

1318
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 7: lot of division, very similar to what's going on in

1319
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 7: the US right now in terms of division, right, yeah,

1320
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 7: where there were like heated arguments, people did not speak

1321
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 7: to each other, people hated each other because of you know,

1322
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 7: like part of my family was Cha Vista, the other

1323
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 7: part was opposition or whatever.

1324
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 5: It was.

1325
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:46,839
Speaker 7: That was one of the biggest things that I remember,

1326
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,080
Speaker 7: was like half of my family hating the other half

1327
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 7: of my family because they had different backgrounds and different

1328
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 7: political stances. So so yeah, that was a big thing,

1329
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:01,880
Speaker 7: as well as the fanaticism right existed, especially yeh list

1330
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 7: does I mean remember my grandmother had like a poster

1331
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 7: of Chavis and like like a figurines and she dyed

1332
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 7: her hair red because she supported the regime whatever. So

1333
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 7: so that's one of the things I remember the most,

1334
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:19,839
Speaker 7: is my family, both sides like hating each other because

1335
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 7: of it is And it's something that I'm seeing in

1336
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 7: the US right now a lot, and I think it's

1337
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:29,679
Speaker 7: operating in a very similar fashion.

1338
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem to be. And like, did your

1339
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,640
Speaker 1: family reconcile at some point, Oh, do you still have

1340
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 1: people who are like die hard?

1341
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 5: No?

1342
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 7: So, for example, my grandmother that I told you about, Yeah,

1343
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 7: she says that she's still Chavista but she's not Malis.

1344
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1345
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had this done too.

1346
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1347
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:48,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1348
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,600
Speaker 7: It's just like, you know, she supports like what the

1349
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 7: revolution initially meant, but like she doesn't support Maduro, right yeah.

1350
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 7: Or for example, like her husband, my grandfather, he's just like,

1351
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:04,040
Speaker 7: you know, this revolution was all bullshit. We thought that

1352
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:06,120
Speaker 7: this was going to be good, but they ended up

1353
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 7: being absolute traders, like you know, they ended up not

1354
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 7: doing what they promised to do, right, So it was

1355
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 7: all just disappointment. And the other side of my family

1356
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 7: is just like chill, I don't know, like.

1357
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:24,759
Speaker 6: They were just never chevy stuff.

1358
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 7: So that's kind of you are like strong environmentalists, so

1359
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 7: that's why they kind of hated Chavis because they were

1360
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 7: also doing some crazy shit in the Amazons. So it's

1361
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 7: kind of like they do all get along much better, right,

1362
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 7: So that's good, Yeah, I guess because like once I

1363
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 7: realized that actually this guy was not that good, right,

1364
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 7: But that particular side of my family that was Chevistad

1365
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 7: that's how they think right now. Or it's like either

1366
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:53,160
Speaker 7: it was disappointment or that perspective of you know, I

1367
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 7: support Chavis but not Maduo.

1368
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:56,760
Speaker 1: I've heard that from a lot of people, right, like

1369
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 1: what Javis wanted to make Venezuela better for us, and

1370
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 1: like if we just look at the shit he said, Yeah,

1371
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:03,960
Speaker 1: I want people to have enough to eat, I want

1372
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 1: them to have education, I want them to be able

1373
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,080
Speaker 1: to go to the hospital. I want them to have

1374
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: safe houses. Like I want all those things too. They

1375
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 1: didn't get those things. But like I've heard a lot

1376
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,519
Speaker 1: of people say that, like, oh, yeah, we wanted it too,

1377
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: so we supported it, but it wasn't We didn't get that.

1378
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 1: We got prisons and cops exactly. And like that stance

1379
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 1: seems to be entirely absent in any discussion of Venezuela,

1380
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 1: which is it's so common, like you just don't hear

1381
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 1: the like it's not like a left critique from other

1382
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 1: left stances. It's a left critique from the same place

1383
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 1: that chav Is more claimed to come from. And it's

1384
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 1: completely absent in our discourse. And like I can't, well,

1385
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: it's because we don't talk to people from Venezuela. But yeah, yes,

1386
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: it's extremely frustrating, and I think like there's a lot

1387
01:26:55,479 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 1: that the United States can learn because we're already seeing

1388
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:03,559
Speaker 1: large numbers of people being like, oh, yeah, I've voted

1389
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: for Trump one, two, three times, and now something has

1390
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 1: alienated them, right, whether it's mass deportations, whether it's a

1391
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 1: war with a run, whether it's the economy being shit,

1392
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 1: whatever it is, Like, we need to learn how to

1393
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 1: allow people to change their minds or like to get better,

1394
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,720
Speaker 1: like the vendants, where in opposition wouldn't be what it

1395
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 1: was if they said anybody who supported chabb As at

1396
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 1: any point can fuck off, we don't want you, right, Like, yeah,

1397
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 1: it's it wouldn't work, It wouldn't function. And I think

1398
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:44,600
Speaker 1: if we would listen to people, there's so much that

1399
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:47,719
Speaker 1: we could learn from that, but we seem so locked

1400
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: in on talking down to them instead.

1401
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:52,639
Speaker 7: That yeah, I mean exactly, That's what I mean by

1402
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 7: like it reminds me of that like division. You know,

1403
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 7: it's almost like rap, right, Like people are foaming at

1404
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:02,200
Speaker 7: the mouth. That's kind of like the level of division

1405
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:04,720
Speaker 7: that I remember growing up. And to be honest, a

1406
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 7: lot of what's going on in the US is eerily

1407
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 7: similar to what I grew up seeing. I think both

1408
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 7: Trump and Chavas are very similar kinds of people. And

1409
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:17,800
Speaker 7: you know, I used to live in the US. Now

1410
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:19,679
Speaker 7: I live in Europe, but that's one of the reasons

1411
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 7: I decided to leave, because I saw many similarities to

1412
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 7: what happened in my country, and I decided to just

1413
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 7: Skidadle as soon as like, because I sort of knew

1414
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 7: where it was all going.

1415
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 6: But I knew where it was all.

1416
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 7: Going because of what I already lived through. There was

1417
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 7: actually one more thing that I'm thinking about it that

1418
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 7: it didn't get a chance.

1419
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 6: But you mentioned Palestine. I think it's really.

1420
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:59,600
Speaker 7: Interesting because the school that I went to, actually, Venezuela

1421
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 7: has really big population of Middle Eastern people, among them Palestinians.

1422
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 7: There was a Palestine club in my hometown and I

1423
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 7: remember during was it like twenty twelve, twenty fourteen, Again

1424
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 7: this was years ago, but twenty twelve maybe twenty fourteen,

1425
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 7: At some point there were protests la Huadimbus if you

1426
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 7: know them, during Lazwuardimbas. There were protests for Venezuela whatever.

1427
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:29,719
Speaker 6: And I remember that I had.

1428
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 7: Many Palestinian, like Palestinian Venezuelan classmates, and they were protesting both, right,

1429
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:39,320
Speaker 7: So they had Palestinian flags and they had Venezuelan flags,

1430
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 7: and they were protesting for both peoples. So you know,

1431
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,879
Speaker 7: that's like an example whenever people say like try to divide,

1432
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 7: and you know sayy like oh, like the Maludu is

1433
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:52,880
Speaker 7: like pro Palestine whatever. I think of my friends in

1434
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:57,880
Speaker 7: school where they were like, no, actually, we're Palestinian Venezuelans

1435
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 7: and we don't like what's going on in either place.

1436
01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:06,679
Speaker 7: So because we do have a very big Middle Eastern population, again,

1437
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:11,479
Speaker 7: many Palestinians, many Lebanese people who are not unaware of

1438
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 7: what has been going on in the Middle East, right,

1439
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 7: So that's also something to be added to the conversation,

1440
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 7: is you know when we talk about these things like

1441
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 7: they're not isolated, and precisely because we're not isolated, that's

1442
01:30:23,479 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 7: why we should, like you said, like be more in

1443
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 7: support of the people rather.

1444
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:27,719
Speaker 6: Than the states.

1445
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 5: Right.

1446
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1447
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 7: I wanted to bring up like that little bit of

1448
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 7: like that little memory that I had because I just

1449
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 7: remember the image of it, of my friends doing that.

1450
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's very similar in a sense, I guess to, like,

1451
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 1: I think a lot about how the Assad regime used

1452
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:47,479
Speaker 1: Palestinian people, right, like it would constantly talk about fucking

1453
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:50,720
Speaker 1: solidarity with Palestine, and it had all these tanks and

1454
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 1: all these guns and all these planes and bombs, and

1455
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:56,160
Speaker 1: it turned them all on its certain people. Niah. It

1456
01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:00,720
Speaker 1: didn't use its state power to liberate Palestine, it would

1457
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: have been destroyed by the idea of the data, I imagine,

1458
01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: but it used it to stake powered to kill its

1459
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:09,679
Speaker 1: own people. Yeah, it is so frustrating that we saw

1460
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 1: that happen and the world still allows people to tokenize

1461
01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:17,479
Speaker 1: the Palestinian people right and to use them as a

1462
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 1: shield definitely against the oppression of their own people. I

1463
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: think a lot of people will be thinking or listening

1464
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 1: and being like, well, I haven't really heard from Venezuelan voices,

1465
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:32,599
Speaker 1: or I mean they might not know any people from Venezuela.

1466
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 1: Where can people do more to listen if they want

1467
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 1: to as they approach this issue in so much as

1468
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:41,759
Speaker 1: people are still approaching it because half the US media's

1469
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 1: forgotten about Venezuela already.

1470
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on, for sure.

1471
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, but.

1472
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 7: I want to say, like, this might be a little

1473
01:31:51,960 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 7: bit annoying, but learn Spanish, right, if you're going to

1474
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:56,639
Speaker 7: ask it for a specific group of people, at least

1475
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 7: learn the language you know so that you actually know

1476
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 7: what people talking about. Right, not everybody speaks English. Not

1477
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:06,160
Speaker 7: everybody's gonna speak your language. So if you're actually gonna

1478
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 7: take advocacy for Venezuelas seriously, then you should learn the

1479
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 7: language straight up so that you it's easier for you

1480
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 7: to get into these conversations. See what local activists are saying,

1481
01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:21,679
Speaker 7: see what the news are saying, like see even what

1482
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 7: our leaders are saying.

1483
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,719
Speaker 6: Right. So I think that's one of the first things.

1484
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 6: I think. Another thing, I mean, there are.

1485
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:33,479
Speaker 7: Some like English language Instagram accounts who are like posting things, yeah,

1486
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 7: but I think the biggest thing is to be for

1487
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 7: the people.

1488
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 6: And what do I mean by that?

1489
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,080
Speaker 7: Everyone wants to claim that they are for the people,

1490
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:45,560
Speaker 7: but very few people.

1491
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 6: Actually are for the people, right.

1492
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:52,479
Speaker 7: So what happens is they might hear like, I don't know,

1493
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 7: a Venezuela in person saying, oh thank you USA for

1494
01:32:57,080 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 7: taking out maluro do whatever you want want whatever. They

1495
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,880
Speaker 7: might hear like the typical magrasolanos, you know, and you

1496
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 7: might hear all of these perspectives that are really coming

1497
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 7: from not a place of them being fascist or whatever,

1498
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,280
Speaker 7: but coming from a trauma. So I think that if

1499
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 7: you want to inform yourself. You need to develop the

1500
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 7: ability to think critically about what's going on and be

1501
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:24,400
Speaker 7: able to understand who are these people and why do

1502
01:33:24,439 --> 01:33:28,440
Speaker 7: they have this perspective? Right, So they have this perspective

1503
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 7: not because they were slave owners back in Venezuela, not

1504
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 7: because they're white, some of them are not white. It's

1505
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 7: not because they are like pro fascism or they necessarily

1506
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,400
Speaker 7: love the US, right, but it's coming from a place

1507
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:45,320
Speaker 7: of trauma.

1508
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:47,160
Speaker 6: And why do they have that trauma?

1509
01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 7: Well, they have that trauma because all of the abuses

1510
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:53,360
Speaker 7: that were committed, like to the Venezuelan people, were on

1511
01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:58,240
Speaker 7: behalf of this quote unquote socialism, right, So yeah, they

1512
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 7: were committed in the name of of the left whatever.

1513
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:04,080
Speaker 7: So that's why all of a sudden they claim to

1514
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:06,599
Speaker 7: be very right wing, although if you speak to them,

1515
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 7: you might ask them, well, what do you want to

1516
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 7: see in your country and you're like, well, this doesn't

1517
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 7: sound very pro capitalism to me. But I guess the

1518
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 7: ability to understand these people instead of calling them like

1519
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:22,960
Speaker 7: CIA agents, fascists, like they're stupid, they're idiots, don't listen

1520
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 7: to them. The diasporas just full of like massad agents whatever,

1521
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,519
Speaker 7: you want to call them, right, like I've seen every

1522
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 7: athol in the book, like any excuse in the book, like.

1523
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 6: To not listen to these people.

1524
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, but I think this is to listen to these

1525
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:40,040
Speaker 7: people and try to understand and again think critically. Okay, well,

1526
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 7: I understand that maybe what they are saying is not

1527
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 7: necessarily great, because I also understand that the US has

1528
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 7: done this, this and this, and that they are coming

1529
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 7: from a place of trauma that perhaps they do know

1530
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,599
Speaker 7: what the US is history. But again, they're just desperate.

1531
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,240
Speaker 7: But let's get to the bottom of this. What is

1532
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:03,639
Speaker 7: their root con the crisis in Venezuela. Right, So why

1533
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 7: do they have all these like crazy ideas?

1534
01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 6: Why are they so crazy?

1535
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:12,559
Speaker 7: So because of everything that they've endured in Venezuela. So

1536
01:35:12,840 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 7: don't try to focus on like the shallow part of

1537
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 7: it all, like try to go to the deeper end

1538
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:21,320
Speaker 7: and that way you will truly understand what is going on.

1539
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 5: Right.

1540
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:25,840
Speaker 7: Not to ignore these people or just like dismiss them

1541
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:29,559
Speaker 7: as a B or C or like a CIA fascist whatever.

1542
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 6: They're not fascists.

1543
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,719
Speaker 7: They're just people who are traumatized, and it's really important

1544
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,759
Speaker 7: for you to understand their trauma in order to address

1545
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 7: the issues that actually concern them and to actually have

1546
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 7: communication with these people and include them in your advocacy,

1547
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,960
Speaker 7: and who knows, maybe you'll be able to convert some

1548
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 7: to your side to right, which I think that's been

1549
01:35:50,439 --> 01:35:53,080
Speaker 7: one of the most critical mistakes that many people on

1550
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:56,240
Speaker 7: the left have made, is that, you know, we have

1551
01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:59,519
Speaker 7: all these Venezuelans who again claim to be right wing.

1552
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,160
Speaker 7: And to a second, why say they claim to be

1553
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 7: but they claim to be right wing, And again it's

1554
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:09,120
Speaker 7: not just because of the mad Madula and Chavist regime.

1555
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:11,680
Speaker 7: It's not just because all of the abuses committed to

1556
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:13,600
Speaker 7: them were in the name of socialism, but it is

1557
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:17,959
Speaker 7: also because the international left has reacted so negatively towards

1558
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 7: our cause that you know, many Venezuelans decided to say, hey,

1559
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,760
Speaker 7: you know what, I'm right wing or I'm moderate, or

1560
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:28,599
Speaker 7: you know what, I love the US now because all

1561
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 7: the people who are anti West are pro the regime

1562
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 7: that is killing my people, right right, So what's that

1563
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,920
Speaker 7: What that is doing is like actually pushing these people

1564
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:41,680
Speaker 7: even further when you call you know, these like.

1565
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 6: Magaslos, because.

1566
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:47,599
Speaker 7: When you call them like Ashist or whatever, or Cia,

1567
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:50,720
Speaker 7: you're just pushing them even further, and at the end

1568
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 7: that sucks like for us because then we're going to

1569
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 7: be the ones We're going to be politically confused, and

1570
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 7: god knows that's going to lead us to some crazy places.

1571
01:36:57,479 --> 01:36:57,759
Speaker 6: Right.

1572
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:01,520
Speaker 7: So I think the first thing is actually having empathy

1573
01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:06,439
Speaker 7: towards people and using your ability to think critically and

1574
01:37:06,520 --> 01:37:11,360
Speaker 7: hearing people out who maybe you were told not to

1575
01:37:11,439 --> 01:37:15,479
Speaker 7: listen to and thinking, Okay, well, I don't agree with

1576
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:18,559
Speaker 7: what you're saying on the surface, but I understand what

1577
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 7: your roote concern is. Therefore, I think we should talk

1578
01:37:22,280 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 7: about this and I can understand that in order to

1579
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:28,400
Speaker 7: inform myself what is truly happening to these people that

1580
01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 7: are making them believe these crazy things like Trump has

1581
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 7: fave us, right.

1582
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's like really important to remember that

1583
01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:38,559
Speaker 1: you might come across from Venezuela and who might be

1584
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:41,519
Speaker 1: advocating for oh, someone from Iran or someone from one

1585
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:45,520
Speaker 1: of these other places you might be like advocating for intervention. Yeah,

1586
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 1: and like it's ever really important not to be like, Okay,

1587
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 1: this person goes in the mag of box for me,

1588
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,720
Speaker 1: because like there are Venezuelan people who are going to

1589
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 1: go in that box, right, But like, we have a

1590
01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 1: good deal of people who like they're obviously not going

1591
01:37:58,240 --> 01:38:01,520
Speaker 1: to be opposed to migration in they themselves some migrants exactly.

1592
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:04,920
Speaker 1: That doesn't always apply. There's the famous video of the

1593
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:08,639
Speaker 1: Turkish guy complaining about migrants as he enters the United States.

1594
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 6: Like, oh, yeah, I mean, of course, I guess you're

1595
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:11,680
Speaker 6: trying to.

1596
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:14,479
Speaker 1: Say, yeah, yeah, Like there are people whose views on

1597
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 1: like the world and the way it should be might

1598
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:19,599
Speaker 1: not be that different from yours, and like we only

1599
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,080
Speaker 1: find out by engaging with each other in good faith

1600
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:25,840
Speaker 1: and like as people, not as tropes. Yeah, which I

1601
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 1: think is in a huge part of the problem. I

1602
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:32,599
Speaker 1: do think the language barrier is an issue. So many

1603
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:35,560
Speaker 1: people on the left want to talk about places but

1604
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:38,400
Speaker 1: not talk to the people and can't. Yeah, and then

1605
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:43,599
Speaker 1: we only see a small subset of discourse translated into English.

1606
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 7: I mean that's kind of what I mean by like,

1607
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:47,760
Speaker 7: you know, everyone wants to be for the people, but

1608
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 7: very few people actually are because being for the people

1609
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 7: takes a lot of effort, because you need to learn languages,

1610
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:55,320
Speaker 7: you need to visit places, you need to talk to

1611
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:58,320
Speaker 7: people who you might on the surface disagree with you

1612
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:00,320
Speaker 7: might have to think about what they tell you in

1613
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:03,960
Speaker 7: order to come to a conclusion yourself about what's actually

1614
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 7: going on and how you can actually support these people

1615
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:10,040
Speaker 7: while not compromising your own beliefs and your own knowledge

1616
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:13,759
Speaker 7: and experiences. Right, So that takes much work. So that's

1617
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 7: what I meant by that, Like very few, yeah, for

1618
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:19,559
Speaker 7: the people in that sense where they engage and actually

1619
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,680
Speaker 7: go and try to talk to us. And I think

1620
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:25,759
Speaker 7: that's the best way of being informed of any issue,

1621
01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 7: is just talking to the people.

1622
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 6: But it takes a lot of work. It takes a

1623
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 6: lot of work.

1624
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's what solidarity is like, it's

1625
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,840
Speaker 1: putting in the work to take care of each other exactly.

1626
01:39:38,080 --> 01:39:41,559
Speaker 1: It's been a failure of the non campus left that

1627
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:44,320
Speaker 1: we have not done more. We have not reached out

1628
01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 1: to more people in Venezuela, that we've not used our platforms,

1629
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:50,639
Speaker 1: so we've not shared their voices, that we haven't done

1630
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 1: more to push back on this idea that like the

1631
01:39:54,439 --> 01:39:58,840
Speaker 1: only options to Venezuela are neoliberal neo imperialism, or maybe

1632
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:02,480
Speaker 1: neoliberal so is what we do anymore, but American imperialism

1633
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:07,640
Speaker 1: or like this anti imperialism of idiots? Is there anything

1634
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:10,759
Speaker 1: you'd like to plug? Do you like people to find

1635
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,080
Speaker 1: you on the internet or some other stuff you'd like

1636
01:40:14,120 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 1: to direct people to. Maybe they can call you a

1637
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:18,479
Speaker 1: mossad or cia or whatever.

1638
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:22,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can find me on my Instagram account.

1639
01:40:22,360 --> 01:40:27,320
Speaker 7: It's E dot M dot A r I n Okay,

1640
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:31,559
Speaker 7: so just like my name deconstructing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

1641
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:32,759
Speaker 7: can send it to you later.

1642
01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:34,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1643
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:37,040
Speaker 7: Trying to think of like what else to say, but

1644
01:40:37,479 --> 01:40:40,120
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, like going back a little bit, I

1645
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:42,760
Speaker 7: just wanted to clarify this because I brought up a

1646
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:47,360
Speaker 7: few times. But what I was saying, you know, like

1647
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 7: looking at is Maga solanos and what I mean by

1648
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 7: like their quote unquote right or not actually right wing,

1649
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:56,719
Speaker 7: like if you speak to them. And there's a really

1650
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:00,000
Speaker 7: good video that the Sky made but it's in Spanish

1651
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:04,280
Speaker 7: talking about this. But what I mean is many people

1652
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 7: who are magasolanos. You ask them what do you want

1653
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:13,719
Speaker 7: to see in Venezuela, And what they want is affordable housing,

1654
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:19,599
Speaker 7: affordable healthcare, clean water, proper environmental policies. They don't want

1655
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 7: any more abuses committed to the indigenous communities, particular those

1656
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 7: in the Araco Minerooco. So you ask these people what

1657
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:29,800
Speaker 7: they want, and this is what they want, right, So

1658
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:32,360
Speaker 7: when they just say that they're right wing, they say

1659
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:35,280
Speaker 7: that they're right wing simply because they are traumatized from,

1660
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:39,559
Speaker 7: you know, this apparently socialist regime which was anything but

1661
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 7: and people on the left sort of, you know, just

1662
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:48,080
Speaker 7: supporting that regime and isolating them and treating them like

1663
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:51,679
Speaker 7: absolute crap. So they're traumatized by both of those things,

1664
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 7: and that's why they claim to be in this position.

1665
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 7: But if you actually talk to them, that is not

1666
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:00,559
Speaker 7: the case. Keep that in mind, because it's funny to

1667
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:05,920
Speaker 7: me when many people say, oh, you guys just believe propaganda.

1668
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 7: That's why you're pro Trump, and that's why your right wing,

1669
01:42:09,080 --> 01:42:13,240
Speaker 7: because you consumed the CIA propaganda. You guys are blinded

1670
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:15,840
Speaker 7: by propaganda, when in reality.

1671
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 6: What that doing is that is taking away.

1672
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 7: The accountability that many on the left should maybe you know,

1673
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 7: maybe think about, because it hasn't just been CIA propaganda, like,

1674
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:31,599
Speaker 7: it's also just leftists acting like assholes, Like that's something

1675
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:34,519
Speaker 7: that has also pushed many Venezuelans away from the left.

1676
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:39,160
Speaker 7: It's not just the CIA spreading propaganda it's also that

1677
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:43,320
Speaker 7: the Left has acted horribly with Venezuelans, and that has

1678
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 7: also pushed people away. And I think if we're able

1679
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,639
Speaker 7: to solve that issue, If I think if the Left

1680
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 7: is able to see Venezuelans as human beings and to

1681
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 7: have a different approach, such as you know, with you

1682
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:58,040
Speaker 7: know what we've talked about earlier, I think we're going

1683
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 7: to be able to have a better conversation and have

1684
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 7: a better relationship between these two communities and actually get

1685
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 7: somewhere productive.

1686
01:43:06,520 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 6: But I just wanted to bring that up because I am.

1687
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:12,520
Speaker 7: So tired of seeing people saying it's all CIA propaganda

1688
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:16,479
Speaker 7: and not really thinking, well, actually, we have also done

1689
01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:20,200
Speaker 7: some pretty bad things and that's why these people kind

1690
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:24,040
Speaker 7: of have taken a dislike to us. So yeah, I

1691
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 7: think I think that's pretty much it. Like, in conclusion,

1692
01:43:28,040 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 7: just here hear us out. We're human, and we're not

1693
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 7: the perfect victims. We're not a monolith. We were human. Yes,

1694
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:41,679
Speaker 7: so we should be spoken to as humans and thought

1695
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 7: about as humans, not as some chess piece in this

1696
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 7: political game. Just include us into the conversation, I think

1697
01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:55,360
Speaker 7: is the most important thing anyone listening to this should

1698
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 7: take away.

1699
01:43:57,040 --> 01:43:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a really good place. Thank you

1700
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:01,439
Speaker 1: so much for sharing some of that time with us.

1701
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:04,639
Speaker 7: No, thank you so much for giving me the space

1702
01:44:04,680 --> 01:44:09,120
Speaker 7: to talk. I mean, it's very necessary, as you might imagine,

1703
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:13,120
Speaker 7: for our voices to be heard and be put out there.

1704
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:17,599
Speaker 7: Because I'm lucky enough to be multi lingual, I try

1705
01:44:17,640 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 7: to do my best and speak in other languages so

1706
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:24,400
Speaker 7: other people understand what's going on in our minds and

1707
01:44:24,439 --> 01:44:28,639
Speaker 7: in our communities. So I am very grateful that you're

1708
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 7: able to have me here and to actually listen. It's

1709
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 7: not something many people do, so I really do valuate great.

1710
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:38,120
Speaker 1: Thank you, great.

1711
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here.

1712
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 8: I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger, and I'm joined today

1713
01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 8: by a very special Michael Edison Hayden.

1714
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:03,639
Speaker 3: Hi, how's it going, Thanks for being here.

1715
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 8: You may know Mike from his work as an investigative

1716
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:09,320
Speaker 8: journalist and an expert on far right extremism. He currently

1717
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:12,320
Speaker 8: co hosts Posting Through It, a weekly news podcast with

1718
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 8: fellow veteran of the far right beat, Jared Holt. But

1719
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 8: today we're talking about his new book, Strange People on

1720
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,439
Speaker 8: the Hill, How Extremism tore apart a small American town.

1721
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:25,040
Speaker 8: It comes out April seventh, twenty twenty six, but you

1722
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 8: can go ahead and pre order it now anywhere you

1723
01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:28,960
Speaker 8: buy books, and make sure you ask for it at

1724
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:31,840
Speaker 8: your local library and your local independent bookstore.

1725
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:34,519
Speaker 3: Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I'm excited to

1726
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 3: talk about this.

1727
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:37,599
Speaker 5: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah.

1728
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:39,640
Speaker 8: I was worried that I wasn't gonna have time to

1729
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:41,760
Speaker 8: read the whole book. I mean, you talk about this

1730
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:43,799
Speaker 8: a lot in the book, right, the stresses of covering

1731
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 8: this beat. But I sat down to read it and

1732
01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:48,320
Speaker 8: I read it in one sitting. It is very compelling. Wow,

1733
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 8: But it's not the book I thought it was, you know.

1734
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:54,880
Speaker 8: So when your publicists sent this to me, I thought, oh, phenomenal.

1735
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:57,799
Speaker 8: This is a book about Peter Brimlow and the racism

1736
01:45:57,840 --> 01:45:59,519
Speaker 8: Castle in West Virginia. I would love to read a

1737
01:45:59,560 --> 01:46:01,559
Speaker 8: book about Peter Brimlow and the races in Castle.

1738
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:03,960
Speaker 3: And it's not really is it?

1739
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:08,320
Speaker 8: Like the Brimlows are the strange people on the hill

1740
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 8: and they sort of stay on the hill.

1741
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:10,559
Speaker 5: Right.

1742
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:12,840
Speaker 8: You have a couple of encounters with them in the book,

1743
01:46:12,880 --> 01:46:15,040
Speaker 8: But for the most part, it's a book about the town.

1744
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:18,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's about the town. And I'm glad that

1745
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,280
Speaker 5: you mentioned that. I really didn't want to write a

1746
01:46:21,320 --> 01:46:28,639
Speaker 5: book that was about these villains that have been, you know,

1747
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:31,680
Speaker 5: populating our culture for the last ten plus years that

1748
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:35,800
Speaker 5: just seem to get unlimited traction on social media. There's

1749
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:39,360
Speaker 5: nothing wrong with talking about them, and there's nothing certainly

1750
01:46:39,360 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 5: reporting on them, because I did my share of that,

1751
01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 5: you know, day in and day out when I was

1752
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:46,480
Speaker 5: with SBLC, for instance. I think that all that is important,

1753
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:48,840
Speaker 5: and there's different ways to do it and do it effectively.

1754
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:52,320
Speaker 5: But I think for a book, I wanted to focus

1755
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:57,320
Speaker 5: more on what these people and this culture that is

1756
01:46:57,640 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 5: surrounding them is doing to every people.

1757
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:01,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1758
01:47:01,720 --> 01:47:04,240
Speaker 8: I was just I was so startled by what it

1759
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:07,240
Speaker 8: wasn't and then so engrossed by what it was. But

1760
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:09,599
Speaker 8: just quickly for the listeners, tell us what the book

1761
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:12,120
Speaker 8: is not about. Tell us who Peter Brimlow is and

1762
01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:14,120
Speaker 8: v dare and how they ended up with a castle.

1763
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it's not totally without him. I mean we

1764
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:20,640
Speaker 5: do get a bit of information about it. Yeah, we

1765
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:24,759
Speaker 5: meet him. Peter kind of came up as a financial reporter.

1766
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:28,840
Speaker 5: That's the short way of understanding, you know, how he

1767
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:35,280
Speaker 5: became America's most influential white nationalist. That's what SPOC labeled him,

1768
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 5: which has covered obviously in the book. And he became

1769
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 5: obsessed with immigration, and in particular heart Seller, which brought

1770
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:49,479
Speaker 5: in tons of people from the developing world. My mother

1771
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 5: came to the country in sixty eight, for example, that

1772
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,760
Speaker 5: was like a you know, three years after Heartseller, and

1773
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,240
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have been born if not married a white guy,

1774
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 5: and etcetera, etcetera. She came from Egypt. So he became

1775
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:07,800
Speaker 5: obsessed with this and kind of in the way that

1776
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 5: I know, you know a lot about these the way

1777
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:13,599
Speaker 5: some of these minds work, Molly, but in the way

1778
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:16,200
Speaker 5: that some people get obsessed with environmentalism, and then they

1779
01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 5: kind of expand that concern to sort of say, well,

1780
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 5: there's too many people, right, there's too many people. There's

1781
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:24,880
Speaker 5: too many people. Well there's too many brown people. That's

1782
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,280
Speaker 5: what's destroying the environment. And then they become you know,

1783
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:30,080
Speaker 5: sort of white nationalists minded or anti grand immigrant minded.

1784
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:32,479
Speaker 5: In Briml's case, I really think it was like a

1785
01:48:32,479 --> 01:48:35,120
Speaker 5: financial thing, just like this is putting all these different

1786
01:48:35,160 --> 01:48:38,160
Speaker 5: strains and whatever, and then it became the financial became

1787
01:48:38,240 --> 01:48:41,960
Speaker 5: less of a concern, and the actual anti immigrant thing

1788
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:44,920
Speaker 5: became bigger and bigger for him. In nineteen ninety five,

1789
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 5: he publishes Alienation, which is a book that was actually

1790
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:53,800
Speaker 5: praised by people like David Frum, you know, the very

1791
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:56,479
Speaker 5: same guy who's high hatting about Trump every day. It

1792
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:59,120
Speaker 5: was considered socially acceptable, and then over time I think

1793
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:02,840
Speaker 5: people realize that the book had a very racist undercurrent,

1794
01:49:03,320 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 5: and it became beloved by Nazis, white nationalists, etc.

1795
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:09,639
Speaker 8: I think if people like David Frum had been honest

1796
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:11,799
Speaker 8: with themselves, it was there all along.

1797
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:13,440
Speaker 3: It was not a subtle undercurrent.

1798
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 5: Fun A side about David From which is that I

1799
01:49:16,920 --> 01:49:20,919
Speaker 5: did put it in the investigation into Stephen Miller's private emails.

1800
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:25,360
Speaker 5: Miller shared posts by From on more than one occasion

1801
01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:27,960
Speaker 5: about like sort of anti Islam posts, which I think

1802
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:28,559
Speaker 5: is interesting.

1803
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 8: And I think what these people disagree most about is

1804
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 8: how loud you're supposed to say the quiet part.

1805
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:37,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I really do think that that's true. So,

1806
01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 5: you know, when Peter became more of a contentious figure,

1807
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 5: he founded Videir, which is a nonprofit that lasted for

1808
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:47,120
Speaker 5: about quarter century.

1809
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:50,040
Speaker 3: Recently died recently double that's.

1810
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,280
Speaker 5: Covered in the book. It dies over the course of

1811
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:57,000
Speaker 5: the narrative, and it was hugely influential, usually influential and

1812
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:02,160
Speaker 5: changing the GOP. And at the time when W. Bush

1813
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:06,160
Speaker 5: was president, Brimlow was railing against the GOP to change,

1814
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 5: to move in this nativist direction, and eventually they listen

1815
01:50:10,160 --> 01:50:10,639
Speaker 5: to him.

1816
01:50:11,040 --> 01:50:13,880
Speaker 8: And so the book sort of starts with, you know,

1817
01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:17,839
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen, right, and Peter and his wife, Lydia Brimlow

1818
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:21,360
Speaker 8: have purchased this gigantic castle in the small town of

1819
01:50:21,360 --> 01:50:22,759
Speaker 8: Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.

1820
01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:23,040
Speaker 6: Right.

1821
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:25,920
Speaker 8: I guess it's not shake It's a medium sized castle.

1822
01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:29,160
Speaker 8: I don't know what the scale for castles is. And

1823
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,840
Speaker 8: so you become interested in their purchase of this castle,

1824
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 8: and you go to this town and you meet the

1825
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:36,920
Speaker 8: people of Berkeley Springs, the people who are indifferent to

1826
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:39,519
Speaker 8: their presence, the people who are organizing against their presence.

1827
01:50:40,120 --> 01:50:43,479
Speaker 8: And it's this really sort of engrossing story of just

1828
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 8: small town drama, this interpersonal drama of these like small

1829
01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:48,360
Speaker 8: business owners.

1830
01:50:49,320 --> 01:50:50,160
Speaker 3: And the castle is.

1831
01:50:50,120 --> 01:50:53,200
Speaker 8: Always there in the background, right, the strange people are

1832
01:50:53,280 --> 01:50:56,000
Speaker 8: up on the hill. But it's a story about this

1833
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:57,480
Speaker 8: small town struggle.

1834
01:50:58,080 --> 01:51:00,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we should just talk about the castle

1835
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 5: real quick, because it's beautiful, and I think that's a

1836
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:06,599
Speaker 5: key thing. I hope when you read it you were like, oh,

1837
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 5: I want to go to Berkeley Springs now, which is

1838
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:11,000
Speaker 5: I've had more than one person who read the book.

1839
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:12,720
Speaker 3: Tell me that I'm going to wait till they leave.

1840
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,000
Speaker 5: I've also heard that too, But you know, I know

1841
01:51:17,040 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 5: the people who are there who despise the Brimlows and

1842
01:51:20,880 --> 01:51:24,280
Speaker 5: their ideology, and I wanted to make sure that they

1843
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:26,599
Speaker 5: didn't feel let down by the book, that they felt

1844
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 5: like at least honored to a degree because I really

1845
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:30,760
Speaker 5: want them to be able to recover their business. Their

1846
01:51:30,800 --> 01:51:33,720
Speaker 5: business have suffered since Brimlows took over. But just a

1847
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:37,040
Speaker 5: quick thing on this castle. It is absolutely beautiful. It

1848
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 5: should be like a national park or something. It has

1849
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:43,439
Speaker 5: that feel. It was built in eighteen eighty by a

1850
01:51:43,479 --> 01:51:47,320
Speaker 5: guy named Samuel Taylor Suit who made it for a

1851
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:52,200
Speaker 5: very very young young girl. I think she's like seventeen

1852
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:52,960
Speaker 5: or something like that.

1853
01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:55,799
Speaker 3: It's fitting that Brimlow bought it for his much younger wife.

1854
01:51:55,920 --> 01:51:58,800
Speaker 5: Yes, that's true. Yeah, there's a lot of like spiritual

1855
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,679
Speaker 5: kind of woo woo stuff in Berkeley Springs, and there's

1856
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:04,200
Speaker 5: a lot of you know, superstition, and a lot of

1857
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:06,519
Speaker 5: people really think that they are carrying on like some

1858
01:52:06,520 --> 01:52:10,080
Speaker 5: sort of ghost like thing would carry over from this relationship.

1859
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:13,519
Speaker 5: But he made the castle for her, and he died

1860
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:17,360
Speaker 5: and she took over and went bankrupt, and there was

1861
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:20,200
Speaker 5: also allegedly a murder or something like that took place there.

1862
01:52:20,360 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 5: And then there's like this kind of turnover from people

1863
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:26,960
Speaker 5: one generation of the next trying to keep the castle going.

1864
01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:29,720
Speaker 5: It's always more expensive than it's worth. It's beautiful, it

1865
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:33,599
Speaker 5: overlooks the entire town. The town is tiny, gorgeous, looks

1866
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 5: like a great place to go on vacation. And if

1867
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:39,040
Speaker 5: you imagine, like for Berkeley Springs, the Empire State Building,

1868
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 5: Statue of Liberty Times Square rolled into one, that's what

1869
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 5: the castle is. It's so tiny, and this is the

1870
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,000
Speaker 5: main landmark. This is the thing that everybody goes to

1871
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:49,839
Speaker 5: and they go hiking around there and all this stuff.

1872
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:53,280
Speaker 5: So this is a tourist town that attracts a lot

1873
01:52:53,320 --> 01:52:57,560
Speaker 5: of LGBQ people from places like Washington, d C. Baltimore,

1874
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:01,000
Speaker 5: a lot of liberals and all of a sudden you

1875
01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 5: have this again SPOC labeled white nationalist, anti immigrant, nativist,

1876
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:09,240
Speaker 5: whatever you want to call them. Couple buys this castle, right,

1877
01:53:09,360 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 5: they decide to buy it. And the way they found

1878
01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:15,439
Speaker 5: it is because Lydia Brimlow, who is thirty seven years

1879
01:53:15,479 --> 01:53:19,559
Speaker 5: younger than Peter herself and started with him and when

1880
01:53:19,560 --> 01:53:22,600
Speaker 5: she was twenty or something like that and he was

1881
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:23,839
Speaker 5: nearly sixty.

1882
01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 3: Right, she was an intern at the Heritage Foundation when

1883
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 3: they met.

1884
01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:33,599
Speaker 5: Intriguing, Yeah, Heritage and it's interesting, weird in any case,

1885
01:53:34,160 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 5: she finds it on Zillow. And you remember this period

1886
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:42,040
Speaker 5: very well, I know, But in twenty eighteen or so,

1887
01:53:42,560 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 5: it became very very difficult for these folks to stage events, right.

1888
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:51,559
Speaker 8: For you know, for unknown reasons, not because they kept

1889
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:52,120
Speaker 8: killing people.

1890
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 5: I don't want to like derail this podcast by bringing

1891
01:53:55,479 --> 01:53:59,640
Speaker 5: up Jason Kessler, but Jason Kessler, who we both know

1892
01:53:59,720 --> 01:54:02,559
Speaker 5: very well well, who is who secured the permit for

1893
01:54:02,600 --> 01:54:05,519
Speaker 5: the Unite the Right event, who has been at different

1894
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:07,479
Speaker 5: times obsessed with both of us, I think were like

1895
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:11,320
Speaker 5: in his top in his top ap all list, Jason

1896
01:54:11,640 --> 01:54:14,760
Speaker 5: you know, was readily associated with VIDIA because of his

1897
01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 5: contributions to the site and people knew that, and that

1898
01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:18,519
Speaker 5: may put even more pressure because the're like, well, this

1899
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 5: Charlottesville guy, right, they unite the right guy is Assai.

1900
01:54:22,479 --> 01:54:25,320
Speaker 5: So VIDIA couldn't stage any events. They were very worried

1901
01:54:25,320 --> 01:54:29,400
Speaker 5: about counter demonstrators. I think that the counter demonstrators from

1902
01:54:29,479 --> 01:54:32,520
Speaker 5: that first Maga era really put the fear of God

1903
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:34,320
Speaker 5: into some of these people. They didn't they were they

1904
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:38,440
Speaker 5: were scared shitless of anti racist, anti fascists, and all

1905
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:40,320
Speaker 5: of a sudden, you got a castle on Zilo a

1906
01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 5: million point four and it's got stone walls all over it,

1907
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 5: and hey, we can hold our conferences here. And so

1908
01:54:48,120 --> 01:54:50,520
Speaker 5: that's how they got it. They ended up getting it

1909
01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 5: for that reason And what happens to the town afterwards is,

1910
01:54:55,560 --> 01:54:58,520
Speaker 5: I think is a minor tragedy in our culture that

1911
01:54:58,520 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 5: hasn't been paid attention to enough.

1912
01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:02,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, it is this sort of microcosm of what happened

1913
01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:05,160
Speaker 8: to America, right, Like, we don't all have a racism

1914
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:07,600
Speaker 8: castle in our town, but sort of the way this

1915
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:12,400
Speaker 8: castle bears down on this little town kind of mirrors

1916
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:16,200
Speaker 8: the way the influx of these extreme right wing ideas

1917
01:55:16,240 --> 01:55:19,480
Speaker 8: into the GOP, into the administration that governs all of

1918
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:22,360
Speaker 8: us kind of is bearing down on us.

1919
01:55:22,680 --> 01:55:24,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very smart. I think that's true. I think

1920
01:55:24,960 --> 01:55:28,600
Speaker 5: that is one of the reasons that the story spoke

1921
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:30,160
Speaker 5: to me so much that I wanted to pursue it

1922
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:32,879
Speaker 5: for so long. Is it really felt like what everybody

1923
01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 5: was going through in the town and readers will learn this.

1924
01:55:36,360 --> 01:55:40,640
Speaker 5: Imagine business owners who are catering to many liberals there

1925
01:55:40,760 --> 01:55:45,000
Speaker 5: and stuck in Morgan County, which is seventy five percent

1926
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:50,120
Speaker 5: Trump and ninety percent white, and they're panicking because they

1927
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:52,080
Speaker 5: need to keep people going in. The press goes a

1928
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:54,800
Speaker 5: long way in Berkeley Springs, so it's a little place.

1929
01:55:55,240 --> 01:55:57,480
Speaker 5: They don't know how to push back. Someone buys private property.

1930
01:55:57,480 --> 01:55:59,800
Speaker 5: What can you do? But they start to organize and

1931
01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,960
Speaker 5: try to figure out a way to urge Brimlow to

1932
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:05,240
Speaker 5: leave or to make it so difficult for him that

1933
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 5: he leaves. And yes, it is absolutely a symbolism for

1934
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:12,760
Speaker 5: what everybody's going through. And there are people all over

1935
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:17,800
Speaker 5: the country in places red states where you might find

1936
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:22,560
Speaker 5: people who you wouldn't expect kind of protesting against TESLA

1937
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 5: or something like that. And it could be kind of corny,

1938
01:56:25,080 --> 01:56:27,839
Speaker 5: these type of people who like corny online and easily ignored.

1939
01:56:28,320 --> 01:56:31,080
Speaker 5: They're all over the country feeling that exact dread that

1940
01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:34,120
Speaker 5: you're talking about, where something very like above them is

1941
01:56:34,160 --> 01:56:38,200
Speaker 5: bearing down and pushing values that don't align with theirs.

1942
01:56:38,960 --> 01:56:41,920
Speaker 8: Right, it's such a specific story about Berkeley Springs, but

1943
01:56:41,960 --> 01:56:44,600
Speaker 8: at the same time, this could be almost any talent.

1944
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:44,880
Speaker 4: You know.

1945
01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:47,920
Speaker 8: I'm sure you followed the story of what happened in Enid,

1946
01:56:47,920 --> 01:56:50,000
Speaker 8: Oklahoma when the identity of europe a guy got on

1947
01:56:50,000 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 8: their city council and it was this very local, small

1948
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:58,480
Speaker 8: town struggle with these very specific local personalities butting heads.

1949
01:56:58,480 --> 01:57:00,920
Speaker 8: But the story's playing out in small towns all over

1950
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:04,480
Speaker 8: America because everyone has, you know, if not a racism castle,

1951
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:07,800
Speaker 8: everyone has a local racist who's making life hard for everyone.

1952
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:10,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean they're sending right now, to use claviculars

1953
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:14,480
Speaker 5: phrase the Yeah, I mean think about North Idaho, for example.

1954
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:17,200
Speaker 5: I don't get a story for them, for about from

1955
01:57:17,240 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 5: other Jones, and you know they they have a long

1956
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:27,600
Speaker 5: history with white supremacy, and it's certainly dead red far

1957
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 5: right part of the country. But you have like anti

1958
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:37,560
Speaker 5: Semites like Dave Riley, it's right, Rebecca Hargraves and those

1959
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:42,840
Speaker 5: people encroaching on their everyday politics. Right, they're trying to

1960
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:46,360
Speaker 5: change the politics. They're trying to integrate themselves, you know,

1961
01:57:46,440 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 5: coming from outside basically to take over, right.

1962
01:57:49,800 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 8: I mean it's the same thing, is what happened in

1963
01:57:51,600 --> 01:57:55,000
Speaker 8: West Virginia, is that these white supremacists are moving to

1964
01:57:55,200 --> 01:57:57,880
Speaker 8: these places because they have a perception about what it

1965
01:57:57,920 --> 01:57:59,600
Speaker 8: will be like when they get there, that oh, everyone

1966
01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:02,320
Speaker 8: who's will agree with me because they're mostly white.

1967
01:58:02,440 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 3: That's why Dave Riley moved Idaho.

1968
01:58:04,440 --> 01:58:09,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, when Peter Brimlow first moved to the Castle, he

1969
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:11,480
Speaker 5: would repeatedly I think he would do it when people

1970
01:58:11,600 --> 01:58:14,240
Speaker 5: reach out for comment and be like, you know, Morgan

1971
01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:17,600
Speaker 5: County is seventy five percent voted for Trump. It's ninety

1972
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:21,080
Speaker 5: percent white. It's you who have the problem, not us.

1973
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:23,920
Speaker 5: And if you're looking for a more optimistic thing here,

1974
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:26,680
Speaker 5: I've gotten good reviews for the reviews that I've gotten,

1975
01:58:26,720 --> 01:58:30,800
Speaker 5: but they keep using like disturbing, like this is so scary.

1976
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:33,160
Speaker 5: Like I think for us it's not as much because

1977
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:36,120
Speaker 5: we've been living in it for in a more intimate way. Right.

1978
01:58:36,160 --> 01:58:40,839
Speaker 3: I found it encouraging, Yes, because because you met these people.

1979
01:58:40,680 --> 01:58:43,640
Speaker 8: Who were doing their best in this, like bizarre, fucked

1980
01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 8: up situation, like they didn't ask for a weird old

1981
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:47,440
Speaker 8: British Nazi to buy.

1982
01:58:47,280 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 5: The castle exactly.

1983
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 3: They're doing their best, and I think that's beautiful.

1984
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,480
Speaker 5: I think I think if you try to tune out

1985
01:58:53,680 --> 01:58:56,600
Speaker 5: the reality that we're all going through right now and

1986
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 5: just focus on, you know, your own private world old

1987
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:04,200
Speaker 5: it can be scary because you're letting in Peter Brimlow

1988
01:59:04,240 --> 01:59:05,880
Speaker 5: and your chair head while you read the book and

1989
01:59:05,920 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 5: you're you're you're seeing neighbors kind of turning on one another,

1990
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:12,400
Speaker 5: and you're seeing me go through a mental health crisis

1991
01:59:12,440 --> 01:59:14,400
Speaker 5: to the book. I mean, there's these are things that

1992
01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:18,320
Speaker 5: for for a normy that maybe a little bit you know,

1993
01:59:18,360 --> 01:59:20,440
Speaker 5: you may like the book, but you may be final

1994
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:22,400
Speaker 5: little disturbing. But for people like us who have kind

1995
01:59:22,400 --> 01:59:25,760
Speaker 5: of really been through stuff in this and seeing it

1996
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 5: up close on a regular basis, Look, what I like

1997
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:31,280
Speaker 5: about the book is it's it's rare to like say,

1998
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 5: I'm going to praise some white people here, but like

1999
01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:37,480
Speaker 5: it's white people saying that they don't want to be

2000
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:42,280
Speaker 5: represented by these values, right, And I think that for me,

2001
01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:45,280
Speaker 5: as somebody who comes on outsider, I like, look, so

2002
01:59:45,400 --> 01:59:48,200
Speaker 5: normal in New York. I'm just I'm just swarthy, but

2003
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:51,680
Speaker 5: they are there there. I look like Osama bin Laden

2004
01:59:51,680 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 5: and uh.

2005
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,400
Speaker 8: Environment, I don't think you pass as white as you

2006
01:59:56,440 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 8: do in New York.

2007
01:59:57,440 --> 01:59:59,720
Speaker 5: It's very different. Yeah, And I say, like, you know,

2008
02:00:00,120 --> 02:00:02,840
Speaker 5: you see them, I mean they they have a choice

2009
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:05,680
Speaker 5: to just kind of say like, actually, yeah, we're you know,

2010
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:09,960
Speaker 5: Peter Brimlow is standing up for my rights. He's standing

2011
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:12,720
Speaker 5: up for me. He's speaking for me. But a lot

2012
02:00:12,720 --> 02:00:14,240
Speaker 5: of people are not saying a.

2013
02:00:14,200 --> 02:00:16,839
Speaker 8: Guy who thinks a twenty eight hundred dollars political donation

2014
02:00:17,040 --> 02:00:20,400
Speaker 8: is a small amount, that's not the average West Virginian's

2015
02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:21,400
Speaker 8: idea of a small amount.

2016
02:00:21,520 --> 02:00:24,120
Speaker 5: Yes, that is a good thing to pull out. Yes,

2017
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:28,240
Speaker 5: you know. The other thing is the people who ultimately

2018
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:32,880
Speaker 5: in the book tend to defend Brimlow or align with him,

2019
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:39,880
Speaker 5: because basically the town is becomes completely divided, maybe irrevocably,

2020
02:00:39,920 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 5: so hopefully they'll come together one day. And it's still

2021
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,160
Speaker 5: I think the tensions are still quite bad. Yeah, it's

2022
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:47,840
Speaker 5: still happening. Even though Fidier dies at the end, the

2023
02:00:47,840 --> 02:00:50,320
Speaker 5: Brimo still live there. The people who do it are

2024
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:54,040
Speaker 5: not like, yes, we believe full throated in the Great

2025
02:00:54,080 --> 02:00:58,840
Speaker 5: Replacement conspiracy theory. We think that the Great Replacement that like,

2026
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 5: you know that thinking about more extreme things that Brimlow

2027
02:01:02,640 --> 02:01:03,080
Speaker 5: has said.

2028
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:06,960
Speaker 8: No, they're just people who see a nice white man

2029
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:09,360
Speaker 8: and his nice white wife and they were nice to me.

2030
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:11,760
Speaker 8: And I don't understand why you're making life so hard.

2031
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:18,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, Vidier has published apology about mass shooters' intentions.

2032
02:01:17,680 --> 02:01:21,080
Speaker 8: Basically right, But so many of these these brimloa defenders

2033
02:01:21,080 --> 02:01:23,520
Speaker 8: are just they're not saying what he said is okay,

2034
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:25,720
Speaker 8: or I believe what he said. They're saying he was

2035
02:01:25,800 --> 02:01:27,520
Speaker 8: nice to me. Why are you making such a big

2036
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:28,120
Speaker 8: deal out of this?

2037
02:01:28,440 --> 02:01:30,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I will clarify that. But they haven't said, yes,

2038
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:34,160
Speaker 5: mass shootings are good. They have condemned that, but they've

2039
02:01:34,160 --> 02:01:36,840
Speaker 5: also said that like this writing makes sense, right, and

2040
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:41,680
Speaker 5: they're like when during the Tops Supermarket shooting in Buffalo

2041
02:01:41,760 --> 02:01:43,800
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, that's something I highlight in the book,

2042
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:48,280
Speaker 5: Vder publishes something that's like actually, like, look look how

2043
02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:51,920
Speaker 5: the Great Replacement has changed Buffalo. That was their response

2044
02:01:52,480 --> 02:01:55,800
Speaker 5: to ten black people getting shot.

2045
02:01:56,280 --> 02:01:56,440
Speaker 4: Right.

2046
02:01:56,480 --> 02:01:58,480
Speaker 8: So Peter Bridle is very litigious, so we do have

2047
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,200
Speaker 8: to be very specific here in say, Peter Bremlow did

2048
02:02:01,200 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 8: not say it is good that Peyton Dendron shot up

2049
02:02:03,320 --> 02:02:07,040
Speaker 8: that supermarket. What he did say is if the Great

2050
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:08,440
Speaker 8: Replacement weren't happening.

2051
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:12,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's look, and I think that

2052
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:14,760
Speaker 5: going back to the people in the town, I don't

2053
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:17,840
Speaker 5: think that they at every point be like that is good,

2054
02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:20,960
Speaker 5: that what he's saying here is good, the Great Replacements,

2055
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:25,600
Speaker 5: I'm fully on board with it. What they buy into

2056
02:02:26,040 --> 02:02:31,600
Speaker 5: is this profound friend enemy distinction that now hovers over

2057
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:36,000
Speaker 5: our entire country, right where it's just sort of people

2058
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:40,240
Speaker 5: who are friends of Maga and Trump are on one side,

2059
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:42,560
Speaker 5: and then anybody who's at is my enemy.

2060
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:46,960
Speaker 3: And these more extreme talking points are sort of creeping

2061
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:49,320
Speaker 3: into that space and they're not stopping it.

2062
02:02:49,640 --> 02:02:49,840
Speaker 6: You know.

2063
02:02:50,000 --> 02:02:52,280
Speaker 5: Of course it's two sided. Of course, there's like that

2064
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:56,120
Speaker 5: that comes from the liberal left or wherever you want

2065
02:02:56,160 --> 02:02:58,320
Speaker 5: to whatever you want to call it. But I think

2066
02:02:58,880 --> 02:03:01,080
Speaker 5: in the case of the Bremlas, it's not the specifics.

2067
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 5: I remember asking one guy in the book whose name

2068
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:07,240
Speaker 5: is Charlie Currier, and he owns a you know, a

2069
02:03:07,280 --> 02:03:12,120
Speaker 5: sort of a craft's shop at the corner of Berkeley

2070
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:14,600
Speaker 5: Springs Park, and it's right next to another main character

2071
02:03:14,640 --> 02:03:17,160
Speaker 5: of the book, Trey Johansson, who is you know, kind

2072
02:03:17,200 --> 02:03:21,839
Speaker 5: of almost the most important person. And I asked Charlie.

2073
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 5: I was like, you know, so you met the Brimlows,

2074
02:03:25,840 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 5: you hung out with them. What was that like for

2075
02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:29,760
Speaker 5: Christmas and stuff like that? And I was like, well,

2076
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 5: how do you feel about the great replacement stuff? How

2077
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:34,600
Speaker 5: do you feel about like the stuff he writes? And

2078
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:36,720
Speaker 5: what he said was he's a writer. He's a writer

2079
02:03:37,120 --> 02:03:39,560
Speaker 5: like you. He's a journalist just like you. He's the

2080
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:43,320
Speaker 5: same as you. There's no difference. And he was very defensive.

2081
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:46,640
Speaker 5: Yis you know, I think that framing is very useful

2082
02:03:46,680 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 5: for understanding why we can't seem to snap out of

2083
02:03:49,880 --> 02:03:53,879
Speaker 5: this current condition that we're in. When you're inside that bubble,

2084
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:56,600
Speaker 5: that's the logic that works. It's like, this is the

2085
02:03:56,640 --> 02:03:59,360
Speaker 5: guy on our side. You know, we're defending the guy

2086
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 5: on our side. Right, that's a psychosis that kind of

2087
02:04:02,600 --> 02:04:04,919
Speaker 5: overshadows the entire narrative.

2088
02:04:15,840 --> 02:04:19,280
Speaker 8: Right, So this story in this town plays out against

2089
02:04:19,320 --> 02:04:22,640
Speaker 8: the backdrop of the wider world. Right, So you know,

2090
02:04:22,680 --> 02:04:26,320
Speaker 8: your first visit to Berkeley Springs was right as COVID

2091
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:28,040
Speaker 8: is starting, right, it's the last time you left your

2092
02:04:28,040 --> 02:04:29,560
Speaker 8: New York apartment before lockdown.

2093
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:30,960
Speaker 3: You're in Berkeley Springs.

2094
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:33,960
Speaker 8: And as the story progresses, we see the twenty twenty uprising,

2095
02:04:34,000 --> 02:04:36,480
Speaker 8: and there's like a little BLM rally in this tiny town.

2096
02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:39,360
Speaker 8: And then there's j six, and there's October seventh. There's

2097
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:42,800
Speaker 8: the twenty twenty four presidential campaign, and these big events

2098
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:45,400
Speaker 8: in the world, and then there's these smaller events in

2099
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:49,160
Speaker 8: the town, but interwoven with this sort of personal memoir,

2100
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:51,360
Speaker 8: right that the world is in turmoil and so is

2101
02:04:51,400 --> 02:04:54,839
Speaker 8: your life. Yeah, and all these threads sort of weaved together.

2102
02:04:55,880 --> 02:04:59,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true regarding the events in the world and

2103
02:04:59,120 --> 02:05:01,280
Speaker 5: in the town. I'm glad you brought that up. One

2104
02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:02,560
Speaker 5: thing I wanted to do with the book that I

2105
02:05:02,600 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 5: don't see done enough is just to understand that, like

2106
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:09,680
Speaker 5: everything that we see, all these like viral trends and

2107
02:05:09,720 --> 02:05:15,240
Speaker 5: all this stuff filters down into everyday life. And I

2108
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:20,400
Speaker 5: think when news is breaking or trends are happening, we

2109
02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:22,600
Speaker 5: only look at the news and the trends like that,

2110
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:25,280
Speaker 5: and we rarely look at the impacts on our neighborhood.

2111
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:28,360
Speaker 5: Whereas you know, if you do a movie that's said

2112
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:30,920
Speaker 5: in the eighties, you will see like the event a

2113
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:32,960
Speaker 5: little bit more about like at the kitchen table, what

2114
02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:36,000
Speaker 5: the family is going through as something happens nationally, right

2115
02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:39,080
Speaker 5: or so and so's it's almost like we need time

2116
02:05:39,120 --> 02:05:42,000
Speaker 5: to process. But this has a very clear time period,

2117
02:05:42,000 --> 02:05:45,840
Speaker 5: which is the period right before COVID to the twenty

2118
02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:48,960
Speaker 5: twenty four election, and it's enough in the past now

2119
02:05:48,960 --> 02:05:50,680
Speaker 5: that I think we can look at how these things

2120
02:05:50,720 --> 02:05:54,880
Speaker 5: affected regular people in this in this town, because every

2121
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:58,080
Speaker 5: time you're seeing viral videos about black Lives matter, that's

2122
02:05:58,080 --> 02:05:59,920
Speaker 5: impacting the way people act there. So you may get

2123
02:05:59,920 --> 02:06:02,000
Speaker 5: a like five white people go stand on a street

2124
02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:05,120
Speaker 5: corner there with some signs after George Floyd's death, and

2125
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:07,280
Speaker 5: that's like a huge deal in that town because it's

2126
02:06:07,320 --> 02:06:09,320
Speaker 5: like people are shocked by it or they want to

2127
02:06:09,720 --> 02:06:11,840
Speaker 5: they want to they want to harass those people after that.

2128
02:06:12,480 --> 02:06:14,600
Speaker 5: So that was one factor. And as yeah, and as

2129
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:18,480
Speaker 5: for as for myself, it also overlaps like probably the

2130
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:21,920
Speaker 5: darkest time in my life. And that's not totally unrelated

2131
02:06:22,000 --> 02:06:26,280
Speaker 5: to Berkeley Springs in the sense that, like, you know,

2132
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:29,080
Speaker 5: stuff at SPLC was like really really bad at the

2133
02:06:29,080 --> 02:06:31,400
Speaker 5: beginning of the book. Then they're not there in the

2134
02:06:31,440 --> 02:06:36,800
Speaker 5: second half, and my mental health was was just not

2135
02:06:36,960 --> 02:06:39,240
Speaker 5: in a great place. I had spent, as you know,

2136
02:06:39,960 --> 02:06:42,160
Speaker 5: a lot of time with these guys, and I know

2137
02:06:42,240 --> 02:06:45,680
Speaker 5: you personally have dealt with a lot of threats and really,

2138
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:49,040
Speaker 5: I mean as a woman, I mean you're dealing with

2139
02:06:49,640 --> 02:06:51,880
Speaker 5: I imagine it's even scarier because.

2140
02:06:52,240 --> 02:06:56,040
Speaker 3: It's grosser anyway, is yeah, that's grosser for sure.

2141
02:06:56,080 --> 02:06:58,000
Speaker 5: And I mean you're dealing with I mean, I can't

2142
02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:00,680
Speaker 5: even imagine the mentality of someone of the who are

2143
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:03,360
Speaker 5: messaging you and what their their private lives are like.

2144
02:07:03,440 --> 02:07:06,480
Speaker 5: So yeah, so yeah, I mean I had gone through

2145
02:07:06,520 --> 02:07:09,280
Speaker 5: it for a while on my end. One example that is,

2146
02:07:09,320 --> 02:07:12,960
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty one, I took my son to the

2147
02:07:13,160 --> 02:07:17,000
Speaker 5: batting cage and afterwards we went to seven eleven and

2148
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:20,000
Speaker 5: I got a call from a number in North Carolina

2149
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:22,600
Speaker 5: and then it was an FBI agent and he's like, hey,

2150
02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:24,680
Speaker 5: I just want to you know, as a courtesy, you

2151
02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:26,400
Speaker 5: want to let you know that we have somebody who's

2152
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:31,880
Speaker 5: like talking about assassinating you, and you know, do you

2153
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:32,880
Speaker 5: have any questions?

2154
02:07:33,880 --> 02:07:34,000
Speaker 3: Is that?

2155
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:34,600
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2156
02:07:34,720 --> 02:07:36,840
Speaker 5: I was like I do, but like my eight year

2157
02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:39,440
Speaker 5: old is like slurping on a you know, a cherry

2158
02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:40,840
Speaker 5: slurpee in the back seat.

2159
02:07:41,040 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 8: That duty to warn thing is kind of a double

2160
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:45,560
Speaker 8: edged sword, right, because they do have this legal obligation

2161
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:48,200
Speaker 8: to inform you that there's a credible threat on your life,

2162
02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:50,600
Speaker 8: but like they're not going to give you enough information

2163
02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:52,920
Speaker 8: to make you feel empowered by knowing this information.

2164
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:54,480
Speaker 3: So it's like maybe I would rather just not know.

2165
02:07:55,000 --> 02:07:55,240
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2166
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:56,920
Speaker 8: Oh, it was like, literally, if there's something I can

2167
02:07:56,960 --> 02:07:58,960
Speaker 8: do to mitigate this, can I just not know?

2168
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:01,080
Speaker 5: Yeah? It was hard. It was hard. That is I

2169
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,600
Speaker 5: think one of the things that the normy person would

2170
02:08:03,600 --> 02:08:06,280
Speaker 5: find deeply disturbing in the book. But like, yeah, I

2171
02:08:06,280 --> 02:08:07,720
Speaker 5: was dealing with that stuff all the time. I would

2172
02:08:07,760 --> 02:08:11,680
Speaker 5: get like, you know, I'd get people sending me photos

2173
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:14,920
Speaker 5: of Alan Berg's shooting in the driveway. I don't know

2174
02:08:14,960 --> 02:08:16,680
Speaker 5: if you're familiar with that, but like he was the

2175
02:08:16,720 --> 02:08:19,560
Speaker 5: talk radio host who was killed by the numbers of the.

2176
02:08:19,640 --> 02:08:21,000
Speaker 3: Order, killed by David Lane.

2177
02:08:21,400 --> 02:08:24,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I would get that all the time. I

2178
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:26,400
Speaker 5: must spent like months of just getting that from like

2179
02:08:26,480 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 5: random numbers and all this stuff.

2180
02:08:28,400 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 8: Sometimes, like a group of guys will get very into

2181
02:08:30,640 --> 02:08:33,000
Speaker 8: a particular image, and I can imagine the kind of

2182
02:08:33,040 --> 02:08:36,520
Speaker 8: guy that is very into the image of Alan Berg's corpse.

2183
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 3: And it's not a nice guy.

2184
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:40,600
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's taboo. It has like a pornographic

2185
02:08:40,840 --> 02:08:41,680
Speaker 5: quality to it.

2186
02:08:41,720 --> 02:08:44,200
Speaker 8: But it harkens to a very specific era of the movement,

2187
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:47,520
Speaker 8: like I can imagine there's a particular man who gravitates

2188
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:48,800
Speaker 8: towards that specifically.

2189
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:53,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I mean, like I remember getting threatened by Bowers,

2190
02:08:53,880 --> 02:08:55,880
Speaker 5: the guy who shot up like because I was on

2191
02:08:55,920 --> 02:08:57,760
Speaker 5: GAB all the time, as you know, to a fault,

2192
02:08:58,040 --> 02:09:01,000
Speaker 5: I think, but like you know, I got a lot

2193
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:04,000
Speaker 5: of stories out of it and sources. But yeah, because

2194
02:09:04,000 --> 02:09:05,480
Speaker 5: I was always dealing with those guys, and I was

2195
02:09:05,480 --> 02:09:08,320
Speaker 5: always posting on air and you know, trying to stir

2196
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:10,200
Speaker 5: things up and see what it could shake loose for

2197
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:13,640
Speaker 5: a story. And yeah, Bowers was just some kind of

2198
02:09:13,640 --> 02:09:17,720
Speaker 5: idle thing. And so when the Tree of Life shooting happened,

2199
02:09:17,720 --> 02:09:20,720
Speaker 5: when he went out and said, you know, screw your optics,

2200
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:25,280
Speaker 5: I'm going in right right, yeah, and I was like,

2201
02:09:25,360 --> 02:09:28,600
Speaker 5: I know this guy, that one dingo he So this

2202
02:09:28,720 --> 02:09:32,240
Speaker 5: was this was very traumatic for me. I've been holding

2203
02:09:32,520 --> 02:09:35,200
Speaker 5: pretty firm on this. I had a lot of manic

2204
02:09:35,280 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 5: tendencies in the sense of like I could just work constantly,

2205
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:40,280
Speaker 5: and you just work around the clock, work late at night,

2206
02:09:40,320 --> 02:09:44,440
Speaker 5: constantly doing investigative reporting. And I was on a mission

2207
02:09:44,480 --> 02:09:48,040
Speaker 5: because I was so angry about what had happened. You know,

2208
02:09:48,240 --> 02:09:50,440
Speaker 5: you're the right, That's what that really triggered me. I

2209
02:09:50,480 --> 02:09:52,680
Speaker 5: had before then, I had been really open to pursuing

2210
02:09:52,840 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 5: at as a crime reporter or on climate change. These

2211
02:09:56,440 --> 02:09:58,160
Speaker 5: were the kind of things that were like I had

2212
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:02,320
Speaker 5: written features of previously. But it was it was after

2213
02:10:02,360 --> 02:10:03,840
Speaker 5: you night the ride, I got folks, and I really

2214
02:10:04,000 --> 02:10:06,160
Speaker 5: was like, I'm going to put all my abilities into

2215
02:10:06,240 --> 02:10:10,240
Speaker 5: trying to create trouble for these guys, and you did.

2216
02:10:10,880 --> 02:10:11,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did.

2217
02:10:11,960 --> 02:10:17,320
Speaker 5: And then when they pushed back, I guess I wasn't

2218
02:10:17,360 --> 02:10:20,120
Speaker 5: mentally prepared for how scary it could be, and it

2219
02:10:20,240 --> 02:10:21,919
Speaker 5: was lots of stuff. Then I went through a separation

2220
02:10:22,320 --> 02:10:26,360
Speaker 5: with my wife, which is fine, we're great friends, you know,

2221
02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:29,240
Speaker 5: but that was like another factor. And then also the

2222
02:10:29,320 --> 02:10:33,240
Speaker 5: SBLC thing, which we can talk about, but the main

2223
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 5: thing is that I reached a breaking point. I was

2224
02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:38,680
Speaker 5: I was happened to be in Berkeley Springs with some

2225
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:42,440
Speaker 5: of the sources from the book when I had to

2226
02:10:42,480 --> 02:10:45,040
Speaker 5: go home and go to a syche ward and I

2227
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 5: went for three weeks and I got diagnosed with bipolar there,

2228
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:50,600
Speaker 5: which was a very useful diagnosis.

2229
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:53,600
Speaker 8: It makes it makes a big difference because especially it's bipolar.

2230
02:10:53,640 --> 02:10:55,920
Speaker 8: If you're just taking an eight depressants, like you're gonna

2231
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:56,640
Speaker 8: be up shit creek.

2232
02:10:56,720 --> 02:10:58,560
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well, the anti sup press is really screwed

2233
02:10:58,600 --> 02:11:00,760
Speaker 5: up my stomach and also made me like even more

2234
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:01,920
Speaker 5: manic and stuff like that.

2235
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:05,200
Speaker 8: But the book is is a very frank, very very honest,

2236
02:11:05,320 --> 02:11:08,800
Speaker 8: very personal and maybe this is why people found the

2237
02:11:08,800 --> 02:11:11,560
Speaker 8: book to be, you know, disturbing, because it is a

2238
02:11:11,680 --> 02:11:15,320
Speaker 8: very frank discussion of what it means to be the

2239
02:11:15,320 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 8: person who is for so many years in the thick

2240
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:20,720
Speaker 8: of it, you know, not doing sort of objective detached reporting,

2241
02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:22,720
Speaker 8: but getting in there and mixing it up with these

2242
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 8: guys like really, you know, skin in the game, committed

2243
02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 8: to the cause, doing investigative journalism in these spaces, and

2244
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:32,200
Speaker 8: I mean, I think we both are guilty of this.

2245
02:11:32,240 --> 02:11:35,600
Speaker 8: Over the years on this beat, there is this tendency

2246
02:11:35,640 --> 02:11:37,960
Speaker 8: to sort of you know, exchange war stories like oh,

2247
02:11:38,000 --> 02:11:39,160
Speaker 8: you know, I got this terrible threat.

2248
02:11:39,160 --> 02:11:40,040
Speaker 3: I got this terrible threat.

2249
02:11:40,080 --> 02:11:42,840
Speaker 8: You laugh it off, and it's like, you know, it's

2250
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 8: this sort of fact of life that you brush off,

2251
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:48,320
Speaker 8: and you know, everyone says, oh, you're so brave, I

2252
02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:49,680
Speaker 8: could never do that, and you say, oh, it's not

2253
02:11:49,680 --> 02:11:50,120
Speaker 8: a big deal.

2254
02:11:50,160 --> 02:11:51,080
Speaker 3: I deal with it all the time.

2255
02:11:51,240 --> 02:11:52,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, they say that for sure.

2256
02:11:52,960 --> 02:11:55,240
Speaker 8: But then you go home and it is a big deal.

2257
02:11:55,360 --> 02:11:58,920
Speaker 8: And people are not is honest about that as they

2258
02:11:58,920 --> 02:12:00,720
Speaker 8: could be. I mean, in part because admitting that it

2259
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:03,600
Speaker 8: hurts you makes them double down. If they know they

2260
02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:05,400
Speaker 8: got you, they're going to keep digging in that spot.

2261
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:08,080
Speaker 8: But like we don't talk enough about the fact that

2262
02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:10,960
Speaker 8: this destroys us. Yeah, for sure, it's a very honest.

2263
02:12:11,040 --> 02:12:13,840
Speaker 8: Look at what happens when you bought him out on that.

2264
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:16,720
Speaker 5: And it's so much worse than just threats. I mean,

2265
02:12:16,800 --> 02:12:20,760
Speaker 5: you're constantly concerned that somebody is going to use law

2266
02:12:20,800 --> 02:12:22,360
Speaker 5: fair against you and try to.

2267
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:24,400
Speaker 3: Hurt your family and you have children.

2268
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:28,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, you know, and I am extremely anal

2269
02:12:28,840 --> 02:12:33,600
Speaker 5: about legal stuff, Like I'm just like hyper like I

2270
02:12:33,640 --> 02:12:36,040
Speaker 5: don't you know, I don't play games I like And

2271
02:12:36,120 --> 02:12:40,160
Speaker 5: so that's just an example. It's like we published when

2272
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:42,480
Speaker 5: I was with s BOC. We published the identity of

2273
02:12:42,480 --> 02:12:44,880
Speaker 5: Matt Gebert, who is the state department official. I remember

2274
02:12:44,920 --> 02:12:45,160
Speaker 5: that guy.

2275
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:46,840
Speaker 3: I was actually going to bring him up.

2276
02:12:46,880 --> 02:12:48,920
Speaker 8: I was going to bring up Matt Gibert in terms

2277
02:12:49,000 --> 02:12:51,720
Speaker 8: of the number of guys who've moved to West Virginia

2278
02:12:51,760 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 8: because they think it's only white.

2279
02:12:53,080 --> 02:12:54,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, we'll get there in a second. But I just say,

2280
02:12:54,920 --> 02:12:58,000
Speaker 5: like before I published that story, even though I'd been

2281
02:12:58,040 --> 02:13:00,320
Speaker 5: through a million lawyers and like every I mean, we

2282
02:13:00,400 --> 02:13:02,120
Speaker 5: just went through everything and stuff like that. I bought

2283
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:04,360
Speaker 5: a pack of cigarettes, which I never do, you know,

2284
02:13:04,360 --> 02:13:06,200
Speaker 5: I don't want to get into my stomach thing too deeply.

2285
02:13:06,240 --> 02:13:08,600
Speaker 5: But it was not working. It was not working it

2286
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:11,640
Speaker 5: all that day. It was August seventh, twenty nineteen, and

2287
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:16,160
Speaker 5: I was like, literally I was I was clammy. I

2288
02:13:16,240 --> 02:13:19,480
Speaker 5: was sweating. I had never seen his face. He kept

2289
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:21,960
Speaker 5: all of his pictures offline. But I had the goods.

2290
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:23,760
Speaker 5: I knew I had everything. But yet at the same

2291
02:13:23,760 --> 02:13:25,720
Speaker 5: this is one doubt. It's like, what if it's not

2292
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:29,240
Speaker 5: him because I don't have the face match forget threats.

2293
02:13:29,640 --> 02:13:33,240
Speaker 5: That level of stress of just you know, it's just

2294
02:13:33,280 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 5: like I checked everything, right, I like you think think

2295
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:37,760
Speaker 5: about the you're trying to leave the house for a

2296
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:39,720
Speaker 5: long trip or something like that, and it's like you

2297
02:13:39,760 --> 02:13:41,840
Speaker 5: know that thought, Oh yeah, like did I leave the

2298
02:13:41,880 --> 02:13:44,360
Speaker 5: gas stove on when I was you know, when I

2299
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:47,240
Speaker 5: was boiling something for my kids or whatever? Like that's

2300
02:13:47,280 --> 02:13:48,640
Speaker 5: the way it feels, right. It's like a sort of

2301
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:51,760
Speaker 5: you like you memorize the entire investigative feature and you're

2302
02:13:51,800 --> 02:13:54,320
Speaker 5: like going through it and there's like, oh, oh, you

2303
02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:56,040
Speaker 5: know that was that right? Did I check that? And

2304
02:13:56,040 --> 02:13:56,800
Speaker 5: I'm like, yes, I did.

2305
02:13:57,280 --> 02:13:58,200
Speaker 3: Oh, I know, I know that.

2306
02:13:58,360 --> 02:14:00,520
Speaker 8: I know that feeling exacty drives my husband crazy when

2307
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:02,680
Speaker 8: I say things like I'd rather get shot than be

2308
02:14:02,720 --> 02:14:03,440
Speaker 8: wrong in public.

2309
02:14:03,800 --> 02:14:06,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's true, it's true. Like I don't I

2310
02:14:06,760 --> 02:14:08,880
Speaker 5: don't want to. Yeah, you don't want to be wrong.

2311
02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:10,720
Speaker 5: And also you don't want to give these people a

2312
02:14:10,800 --> 02:14:14,880
Speaker 5: chance for anything. And you mentioned Brimlow is very litigious.

2313
02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:15,840
Speaker 3: Not usually very successfully.

2314
02:14:15,960 --> 02:14:19,480
Speaker 5: No, no ease. But that doesn't matter, No, it doesn't matter. Yeah,

2315
02:14:19,480 --> 02:14:21,360
Speaker 5: but it's stressful to report on him because of that

2316
02:14:21,400 --> 02:14:23,480
Speaker 5: because he just he will use it as a tactic

2317
02:14:23,520 --> 02:14:25,920
Speaker 5: and stuff like that. And I gave I also gave

2318
02:14:25,920 --> 02:14:28,480
Speaker 5: the Brimlos I should point out many, many opportunities to

2319
02:14:28,520 --> 02:14:32,040
Speaker 5: talk to me and more detail about everything, and they

2320
02:14:32,160 --> 02:14:32,800
Speaker 5: didn't want to.

2321
02:14:33,120 --> 02:14:35,400
Speaker 8: But you do speak to him several times in the book, Yeah,

2322
02:14:35,440 --> 02:14:37,880
Speaker 8: I do, I do much to his displeasure.

2323
02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:39,720
Speaker 5: Well, I was just to say like, yeah, I mean

2324
02:14:39,880 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 5: all that really led up to me going to the

2325
02:14:43,200 --> 02:14:46,800
Speaker 5: psych word and that and the SBOC thing, which is

2326
02:14:47,400 --> 02:14:50,480
Speaker 5: basically my relationship with SBLC is like I was probably

2327
02:14:50,520 --> 02:14:53,320
Speaker 5: the most well known person there apology because I've had

2328
02:14:53,320 --> 02:14:56,120
Speaker 5: a social media presence and I was doing a lot

2329
02:14:56,160 --> 02:14:58,000
Speaker 5: of spokespersonal work, So I was like on TV a

2330
02:14:58,000 --> 02:14:58,960
Speaker 5: bunch and stuff like that.

2331
02:14:59,160 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 8: So whenever someone's at the organization, they're going to take

2332
02:15:01,680 --> 02:15:02,200
Speaker 8: it out on you.

2333
02:15:02,600 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, And really, for a good part of the early

2334
02:15:05,440 --> 02:15:08,120
Speaker 5: years there after Heidi left, we didn't even have a

2335
02:15:08,280 --> 02:15:12,160
Speaker 5: director of the intelligence project, so you know, I would

2336
02:15:12,160 --> 02:15:15,440
Speaker 5: just get thrown into a lot of TV radio stuff

2337
02:15:15,480 --> 02:15:18,480
Speaker 5: like that. And you know, they treated me great. I

2338
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 5: mean they had got my pay raise multiple times and

2339
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:24,920
Speaker 5: promoted and stuff like that, and I kept breaking investigative stories.

2340
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:28,400
Speaker 5: And then when we started to have problems where were

2341
02:15:28,480 --> 02:15:31,360
Speaker 5: they started to limit our ability to publish stories. They

2342
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 5: really became very risk averse.

2343
02:15:34,800 --> 02:15:37,160
Speaker 8: Which is so contrary to my image of what this

2344
02:15:37,280 --> 02:15:42,240
Speaker 8: institution is for. Yeah, both like functionally and morally. Yeah,

2345
02:15:42,800 --> 02:15:45,520
Speaker 8: as a senior investigative reporter at the Southern Poverty Los Center,

2346
02:15:45,840 --> 02:15:47,960
Speaker 8: you didn't have mental health coverage. You couldn't see a

2347
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:52,760
Speaker 8: real therapist. Yeah, that's horrific. That's a human rights abuse

2348
02:15:53,080 --> 02:15:54,800
Speaker 8: to make you look at gabble. They had not get

2349
02:15:54,840 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 8: you with therapists.

2350
02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:58,840
Speaker 5: They were giving us like the app stuff, which is

2351
02:15:58,880 --> 02:15:59,680
Speaker 5: not going to cut it.

2352
02:16:00,320 --> 02:16:01,960
Speaker 3: You need like a five hundred dollars an hour.

2353
02:16:02,040 --> 02:16:04,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, New York analyst was a psychiatrist, you know in

2354
02:16:04,800 --> 02:16:06,200
Speaker 5: some okay, like you know, somebody good.

2355
02:16:06,280 --> 02:16:07,400
Speaker 3: But they should be covering that.

2356
02:16:07,720 --> 02:16:10,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, no they were not. And there's just a whole

2357
02:16:10,360 --> 02:16:12,520
Speaker 5: bunch of stuff. There were a bunch of safety issues,

2358
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:16,200
Speaker 5: no doubt, anna case, my dear colleagues, still my colleague,

2359
02:16:16,200 --> 02:16:18,440
Speaker 5: even though I'm not there anymore. You know, she went

2360
02:16:18,520 --> 02:16:21,400
Speaker 5: to go callver Ameron and Tennessee and like a bunch

2361
02:16:21,440 --> 02:16:23,680
Speaker 5: of proud boys like basically chased her down.

2362
02:16:24,160 --> 02:16:24,400
Speaker 2: Right.

2363
02:16:24,680 --> 02:16:27,080
Speaker 5: There was no security plan. There was a woman named

2364
02:16:27,120 --> 02:16:30,160
Speaker 5: Susan Cork was the Intelligence project director at that time,

2365
02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:32,240
Speaker 5: and she was just you know, how to lunch. She

2366
02:16:32,360 --> 02:16:34,600
Speaker 5: just didn't do anything. As far as I could tell.

2367
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:36,120
Speaker 8: Things like what happened to Hannah, Like stuff like that

2368
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:38,200
Speaker 8: happens to me. I expect that I'm out there by myself.

2369
02:16:38,320 --> 02:16:39,000
Speaker 8: I have no plan.

2370
02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:40,400
Speaker 3: It's just me. I have no plan.

2371
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:43,840
Speaker 8: It was so startling to me to hear that, like

2372
02:16:44,280 --> 02:16:46,280
Speaker 8: Hannah is out there operating without a net too.

2373
02:16:47,240 --> 02:16:48,640
Speaker 3: There was no plan for her safety.

2374
02:16:48,959 --> 02:16:51,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was nothing. And so one of the first

2375
02:16:51,400 --> 02:16:55,320
Speaker 5: things I did was I helped Shepherd a grievance about this,

2376
02:16:55,879 --> 02:16:59,560
Speaker 5: and it was effective because I think that got Cork

2377
02:16:59,600 --> 02:17:03,440
Speaker 5: put on like a performance of improvement plan. And then

2378
02:17:03,600 --> 02:17:06,760
Speaker 5: after that everything changed at work. I went from betting

2379
02:17:06,800 --> 02:17:11,760
Speaker 5: the favored person to being repeatedly at target of what

2380
02:17:11,800 --> 02:17:14,320
Speaker 5: did you do? Why did you do this? Like it

2381
02:17:14,360 --> 02:17:17,040
Speaker 5: was really, I mean to add on the already stressful

2382
02:17:17,200 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 5: situation that I was in. It was just like your

2383
02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:23,280
Speaker 5: tone in a meeting. And then there was the thing

2384
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:25,680
Speaker 5: about that was there was like a verbal warning or

2385
02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:28,160
Speaker 5: something that was they actually bothered to write out, which

2386
02:17:28,200 --> 02:17:29,959
Speaker 5: was quite stupid. If you're doing a verbal warning, you

2387
02:17:29,959 --> 02:17:33,400
Speaker 5: shouldn't put it in print. And sure enough we found

2388
02:17:33,520 --> 02:17:36,680
Speaker 5: in there that like all the dialogue that was in

2389
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:38,520
Speaker 5: there was completely fabricated and made.

2390
02:17:38,440 --> 02:17:39,879
Speaker 3: Up, and so for the listener.

2391
02:17:39,959 --> 02:17:41,800
Speaker 8: So discussed in the book a little bit is the

2392
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:43,800
Speaker 8: fact that at the Southern Poverty Lossenter was engaging in

2393
02:17:43,879 --> 02:17:47,280
Speaker 8: union investing. Yes, that's right, so you know you were

2394
02:17:47,280 --> 02:17:50,480
Speaker 8: dealing with retaliation for union activity in the workplace.

2395
02:17:50,120 --> 02:17:53,880
Speaker 5: Retaliation for union activity. It was really bad. It happened

2396
02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:57,039
Speaker 5: a second time after that when I was covering the

2397
02:17:57,080 --> 02:18:02,480
Speaker 5: trial Doug Mackie character we can save for another day,

2398
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:05,360
Speaker 5: for another day, and it was really bad, and the

2399
02:18:05,400 --> 02:18:08,000
Speaker 5: stress was really getting to me, and I had a

2400
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:10,879
Speaker 5: panic attack which I've never had before while I was

2401
02:18:10,879 --> 02:18:14,560
Speaker 5: in the shower. And I told them about that, And

2402
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:17,039
Speaker 5: Susan Cork and the person above her, his name is

2403
02:18:17,040 --> 02:18:19,440
Speaker 5: and Beeson. I told him about that. And then they

2404
02:18:19,520 --> 02:18:24,320
Speaker 5: responded by turning around and disciplining me again, almost like

2405
02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:26,800
Speaker 5: to say, like we've got them on the ropes now,

2406
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:30,080
Speaker 5: let's really like make them quit.

2407
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:31,119
Speaker 3: Say eighty a violation.

2408
02:18:31,640 --> 02:18:34,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, And every time we do this, we'd summon the

2409
02:18:34,320 --> 02:18:36,000
Speaker 5: union and we'd make it as hairy for them as

2410
02:18:36,040 --> 02:18:38,840
Speaker 5: possible to do what they're doing. But there's limits to

2411
02:18:38,879 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 5: what you can do. Really, when they want to try

2412
02:18:41,400 --> 02:18:43,200
Speaker 5: to do these sort of things. They pushed it as

2413
02:18:43,240 --> 02:18:45,560
Speaker 5: far as they wanted to go, which is after the

2414
02:18:45,560 --> 02:18:48,440
Speaker 5: summer of twenty twenty three there was a Hamas attack

2415
02:18:48,480 --> 02:18:52,680
Speaker 5: on Israel, and you know, I have Arabs in my family.

2416
02:18:52,720 --> 02:18:56,400
Speaker 5: I have my on my mother's side, including Palestinians. You know,

2417
02:18:56,480 --> 02:18:59,640
Speaker 5: I was distraught about this whole situation. It was adding

2418
02:18:59,640 --> 02:19:03,280
Speaker 5: another thing on top of it, and watching the retaliation,

2419
02:19:03,400 --> 02:19:08,840
Speaker 5: which became a genocide very quickly, did not improve my mood. Obviously.

2420
02:19:08,879 --> 02:19:13,600
Speaker 5: It was very stressful to see that stuff. And Hannah

2421
02:19:13,600 --> 02:19:17,200
Speaker 5: invited me to sign a thing about you know, it

2422
02:19:17,320 --> 02:19:21,800
Speaker 5: was just sort of like asking writers to sign on

2423
02:19:22,080 --> 02:19:25,160
Speaker 5: Israel's and apartheid state, you know, calling for a ceasefire.

2424
02:19:25,080 --> 02:19:27,199
Speaker 3: Writers for the seasfire. Yeah, I remember, and.

2425
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:32,199
Speaker 5: Free Beacon familiar with that wonderful politician.

2426
02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:34,960
Speaker 8: It still comes up in the first few pages of

2427
02:19:35,000 --> 02:19:35,800
Speaker 8: your Google results.

2428
02:19:35,840 --> 02:19:37,720
Speaker 5: Thank you for noting. Yeah, I know, but this the.

2429
02:19:37,680 --> 02:19:38,680
Speaker 3: Book should push it back.

2430
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:42,800
Speaker 5: The book Free Beacon like came out with this thing

2431
02:19:42,840 --> 02:19:47,480
Speaker 5: and it was like SPLC spokesperson, you know, blames Israel

2432
02:19:47,560 --> 02:19:49,199
Speaker 5: for Hamas violence or something.

2433
02:19:49,040 --> 02:19:52,120
Speaker 8: Like that, and just that the audacity to accuse you

2434
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:56,160
Speaker 8: of anti Semitism for signing this letter, you know, supporting

2435
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:58,760
Speaker 8: a ceasefire. I've read that letter. It's it's it's not

2436
02:19:58,800 --> 02:20:01,840
Speaker 8: an anti Semitic letter. It's is calling it what it

2437
02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:04,080
Speaker 8: is and just asking for a cea spire, right, and

2438
02:20:04,160 --> 02:20:07,720
Speaker 8: you have spent a decade writing about anti Semitic violence.

2439
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:10,600
Speaker 5: Well, there's there's tons of there's there's tons of anti

2440
02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:13,840
Speaker 5: Zionist Jews on there. I mean, there's probably more than

2441
02:20:13,879 --> 02:20:17,840
Speaker 5: anything else. But you know, when this, when this came out,

2442
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:21,640
Speaker 5: I was really pissed. Obviously it had a racist undertone.

2443
02:20:21,640 --> 02:20:23,640
Speaker 5: I mean, Hannah was mentioned, but it was mostly about me.

2444
02:20:23,720 --> 02:20:25,959
Speaker 5: And then there instead of a picture of me, they

2445
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:28,680
Speaker 5: used they used like one of those pictures of Moss

2446
02:20:28,680 --> 02:20:31,080
Speaker 5: looking like Cobra from G I. Joe and with like

2447
02:20:31,120 --> 02:20:32,280
Speaker 5: a rocket launcher and.

2448
02:20:32,680 --> 02:20:35,160
Speaker 8: Right, implying that you, as as a man of Arab descent,

2449
02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:36,800
Speaker 8: are an anti Semitic terrorist.

2450
02:20:36,879 --> 02:20:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, and and good faith stuff.

2451
02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:41,560
Speaker 5: Adding to I would say, this is also complex because

2452
02:20:41,920 --> 02:20:44,920
Speaker 5: you know, my family basically fled because of threats from

2453
02:20:44,959 --> 02:20:47,879
Speaker 5: Islamic terrorism, right, so this is even more like, you know,

2454
02:20:48,040 --> 02:20:50,880
Speaker 5: to align me with that necessarily is not my not ideal,

2455
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:53,360
Speaker 5: even though I'm in like, you know, I'm sure I

2456
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:56,280
Speaker 5: have a very more more nuanced idea of what hellas

2457
02:20:56,360 --> 02:20:58,760
Speaker 5: is than that author. The point is, it's just, I mean,

2458
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:00,880
Speaker 5: it's just basically to do that and then rather than

2459
02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:05,280
Speaker 5: SBOC like cares so much about social justice and racism.

2460
02:21:05,040 --> 02:21:07,879
Speaker 8: Rather than seize the opportunity to differentiate themselves from the

2461
02:21:07,879 --> 02:21:11,400
Speaker 8: psychosis that the ADL has descended into, as you know,

2462
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,560
Speaker 8: because those two organizations sort of exist in the same space,

2463
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:17,080
Speaker 8: they're often used in the same sentence, and the ADL

2464
02:21:17,120 --> 02:21:18,840
Speaker 8: has really lost a lot of credibility in the last

2465
02:21:18,840 --> 02:21:19,280
Speaker 8: few years.

2466
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:21,760
Speaker 5: I don't think they have any credibility because of those.

2467
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:26,000
Speaker 8: So instead of differentiating themselves from that, they chose to

2468
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 8: discipline you.

2469
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:29,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, they did. And it was that was when I,

2470
02:21:29,600 --> 02:21:33,080
Speaker 5: like I said, mental health was like all the factors

2471
02:21:33,400 --> 02:21:36,879
Speaker 5: that we've just discussed mentioned And then I was happened

2472
02:21:36,879 --> 02:21:40,200
Speaker 5: to be in Berkeley Springs when I reached a point

2473
02:21:40,240 --> 02:21:43,280
Speaker 5: where I was like, you know, I was suicidal and

2474
02:21:44,160 --> 02:21:46,800
Speaker 5: trigger warning for people. I apologize, but that's the truth,

2475
02:21:47,240 --> 02:21:49,520
Speaker 5: and came back and had to spend the sort of

2476
02:21:49,600 --> 02:21:54,440
Speaker 5: Christmas break period there where I lost you know, they

2477
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:57,840
Speaker 5: ultimately terminated me. It was a Title seven violation in

2478
02:21:57,920 --> 02:22:02,320
Speaker 5: terms of discrimination to what happened effort. And then when

2479
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:05,360
Speaker 5: people found out what happened, the union started to write

2480
02:22:05,360 --> 02:22:08,160
Speaker 5: things to you know, to management. There was all this

2481
02:22:08,240 --> 02:22:11,080
Speaker 5: internal dialogue happening while I was in a psych word

2482
02:22:11,120 --> 02:22:15,840
Speaker 5: with like no access to anything, and almost everybody in

2483
02:22:15,959 --> 02:22:21,439
Speaker 5: my line of managers was pushed out and given buyouts

2484
02:22:21,440 --> 02:22:24,760
Speaker 5: allegedly Quirk this woman and Beeson and now the CEO is.

2485
02:22:24,760 --> 02:22:27,160
Speaker 3: They exposed themselves to some serious liability there.

2486
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:30,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, they got off easy in many ways. Yeah, they

2487
02:22:30,280 --> 02:22:34,120
Speaker 5: disposed of me, but I threatened suit with a lawyer,

2488
02:22:34,879 --> 02:22:38,320
Speaker 5: wonderful lawyer who she was great Jewish woman from New

2489
02:22:38,400 --> 02:22:42,760
Speaker 5: York and as tough as nails. And yeah, I mean

2490
02:22:42,800 --> 02:22:44,800
Speaker 5: I got a good settlement out of it, which is,

2491
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:46,720
Speaker 5: you know, I would have preferred just to be able

2492
02:22:46,760 --> 02:22:47,959
Speaker 5: to just continue doing my job.

2493
02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:49,920
Speaker 3: Though it's heartbreaking to remember that.

2494
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:53,960
Speaker 8: You know, even these progressive nonprofits that are fighting for

2495
02:22:54,000 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 8: what we believe, they're using you up and spitting you

2496
02:22:56,280 --> 02:22:58,840
Speaker 8: out to Yeah, oh sure they're doing union busting. They're

2497
02:22:58,920 --> 02:23:02,000
Speaker 8: firing you for having a mental crisis. They're opposed to

2498
02:23:02,040 --> 02:23:04,960
Speaker 8: you exercising your free speech off the clock, the kinds

2499
02:23:05,000 --> 02:23:06,920
Speaker 8: of things you just you don't want to see from

2500
02:23:06,959 --> 02:23:08,400
Speaker 8: an organization like the SPLC.

2501
02:23:08,640 --> 02:23:12,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, they had to retract my termination and assign into

2502
02:23:12,440 --> 02:23:15,439
Speaker 5: a layoff. And then you know, I had to retract

2503
02:23:16,320 --> 02:23:20,080
Speaker 5: labor claims I had made, which would have gone nowhere

2504
02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:23,280
Speaker 5: as soon as the Trump administration took over. Anyway, that's heartbreaking,

2505
02:23:24,560 --> 02:23:28,240
Speaker 5: which I saw coming in twenty twenty four to a degree.

2506
02:23:28,440 --> 02:23:31,400
Speaker 5: So yeah, like that happened. And then bringing it back

2507
02:23:31,400 --> 02:23:34,199
Speaker 5: to Berkeley Springs, I was told not to go anywhere,

2508
02:23:34,240 --> 02:23:35,680
Speaker 5: but I needed to keep working on the book. So

2509
02:23:35,680 --> 02:23:38,120
Speaker 5: it was like a week after I got out of

2510
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:40,320
Speaker 5: the hospital, I came back down there, and then the

2511
02:23:40,320 --> 02:23:44,960
Speaker 5: folks who I had been working with since twenty twenty

2512
02:23:45,000 --> 02:23:47,160
Speaker 5: when the Brimlas first arrived, they kind of took me

2513
02:23:47,240 --> 02:23:49,360
Speaker 5: in and nursed me back to health. So that's why

2514
02:23:49,480 --> 02:23:53,320
Speaker 5: it's I feel like unified in the narrative, and we're

2515
02:23:53,360 --> 02:23:55,840
Speaker 5: able to explore what happened to me psychologically, and what

2516
02:23:55,879 --> 02:23:58,680
Speaker 5: happened is and them psychologically as this other stuff is happening.

2517
02:24:09,840 --> 02:24:11,760
Speaker 8: See, I guess I understand why some of the reviewers

2518
02:24:11,760 --> 02:24:14,039
Speaker 8: call it disturbing, but that sort of full circle that

2519
02:24:14,120 --> 02:24:15,800
Speaker 8: sort of personal closure.

2520
02:24:15,920 --> 02:24:16,120
Speaker 5: You know.

2521
02:24:16,160 --> 02:24:19,640
Speaker 8: Obviously things weren't ideal, right, you lost your job, but

2522
02:24:19,959 --> 02:24:22,120
Speaker 8: I don't know, things came full circle and the people

2523
02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:25,080
Speaker 8: that you went there to write about took care of you,

2524
02:24:25,200 --> 02:24:27,000
Speaker 8: and you, I don't know, you all.

2525
02:24:26,920 --> 02:24:29,440
Speaker 3: Continue along your way as the world falls apart.

2526
02:24:29,520 --> 02:24:31,200
Speaker 5: I don't think that they come all cross as like

2527
02:24:31,280 --> 02:24:34,480
Speaker 5: perfect either. I mean, like that's what I'm really hopeful for. No.

2528
02:24:34,680 --> 02:24:36,600
Speaker 3: I mean they're all complicated people.

2529
02:24:36,840 --> 02:24:38,880
Speaker 5: You know. I wanted to avoid like the sort of

2530
02:24:39,120 --> 02:24:42,680
Speaker 5: wishy washy utopian like I'm an ally you know, and

2531
02:24:44,000 --> 02:24:46,200
Speaker 5: it's like, yeah, actually the people who are allies have

2532
02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:49,080
Speaker 5: all kinds of issue that marital problems. Maybe some of

2533
02:24:49,080 --> 02:24:51,360
Speaker 5: them are like behave badly in one thing or whatever,

2534
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:54,600
Speaker 5: all people trying to live. It's really a question of

2535
02:24:55,280 --> 02:25:01,080
Speaker 5: what this particular ideology that has been foisted upon us

2536
02:25:01,959 --> 02:25:07,120
Speaker 5: very rapidly by the likes of Steve Bannon and Brimlow

2537
02:25:07,160 --> 02:25:10,560
Speaker 5: and others. Right, it was a collective push to take

2538
02:25:10,840 --> 02:25:15,760
Speaker 5: the existing right wing mom star and set it in

2539
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:18,640
Speaker 5: this direction. What this is doing to us.

2540
02:25:18,920 --> 02:25:21,880
Speaker 8: It's a very intimate look at what that is like

2541
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:24,840
Speaker 8: for individual people. You know, we were all experiencing having

2542
02:25:25,480 --> 02:25:28,119
Speaker 8: right wing violence foisted upon us from above. But this

2543
02:25:28,160 --> 02:25:31,160
Speaker 8: is I don't know, there were these like small moments

2544
02:25:31,200 --> 02:25:33,760
Speaker 8: of like physical intimacy, like when you're you're at the

2545
02:25:33,760 --> 02:25:36,440
Speaker 8: castle for the party and you know you and Peter

2546
02:25:36,520 --> 02:25:39,600
Speaker 8: Brimlow are exchanging like this lighthearted moment, and you reach

2547
02:25:39,640 --> 02:25:41,760
Speaker 8: out and you put your hand on his shoulder. Instinctively,

2548
02:25:42,120 --> 02:25:44,080
Speaker 8: when you're sharing laughter with someone, you put out, you

2549
02:25:44,080 --> 02:25:46,160
Speaker 8: put your hand on his shoulder and like, you know,

2550
02:25:46,200 --> 02:25:48,400
Speaker 8: recoiled immediately and didn't know why you had done that.

2551
02:25:48,480 --> 02:25:50,840
Speaker 8: But this like tiny moment of physical intimacy that you

2552
02:25:50,879 --> 02:25:54,920
Speaker 8: know this was a person, or the transgender mushroom farmer

2553
02:25:54,959 --> 02:25:58,280
Speaker 8: Lisa Marie who sought out Lydia Brimlow at church and

2554
02:25:58,320 --> 02:26:00,800
Speaker 8: shook her hand during the Right of Peace, Like I

2555
02:26:00,800 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 8: would have loved to have seen that.

2556
02:26:02,680 --> 02:26:05,120
Speaker 5: She's so cool, by the way, you should have her

2557
02:26:05,160 --> 02:26:08,080
Speaker 5: on She's awesome, she sounds amazing.

2558
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:10,200
Speaker 3: I would love to meet Lisa Marie.

2559
02:26:10,800 --> 02:26:13,320
Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you about her in a second. But yeah,

2560
02:26:13,360 --> 02:26:15,480
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, I mean Brimlo is behaving in a

2561
02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:18,160
Speaker 5: very I mean he has like an infuncular kind of

2562
02:26:18,320 --> 02:26:21,240
Speaker 5: vibe like in person when he's not angry with you.

2563
02:26:21,959 --> 02:26:25,879
Speaker 5: And I'm sure that for people who know him in

2564
02:26:25,920 --> 02:26:29,199
Speaker 5: a friendly way in the movement that he's he's fun.

2565
02:26:29,240 --> 02:26:32,240
Speaker 3: You know, he likes to drink room temperature Vanka.

2566
02:26:32,360 --> 02:26:34,959
Speaker 5: He is always just talking like this, so he sounds

2567
02:26:35,000 --> 02:26:38,480
Speaker 5: like he's always had her for your drinks. Probably he

2568
02:26:38,520 --> 02:26:42,160
Speaker 5: has that British way of just some kind of dry

2569
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:45,200
Speaker 5: remark about things going to pot. Like, you know, I'm

2570
02:26:45,200 --> 02:26:48,480
Speaker 5: sure it's fun for people who know him, and you know,

2571
02:26:48,480 --> 02:26:51,800
Speaker 5: you're in that space and any kind of party thing

2572
02:26:51,920 --> 02:26:54,039
Speaker 5: or whatever you can let go for a second. And

2573
02:26:54,080 --> 02:26:57,280
Speaker 5: for a second I felt not that, like I felt like, oh,

2574
02:26:57,400 --> 02:26:59,360
Speaker 5: this is my friend or any It is more than I'm.

2575
02:26:59,240 --> 02:27:02,240
Speaker 8: Just talking exactly. You know, people really bristle it that

2576
02:27:02,280 --> 02:27:04,880
Speaker 8: you know, you're humanizing him. Well, yeah, because he's human.

2577
02:27:05,000 --> 02:27:08,560
Speaker 8: Humanizing doesn't mean excusing or you know, coming to appreciate

2578
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:09,000
Speaker 8: it anyway.

2579
02:27:09,000 --> 02:27:10,720
Speaker 3: It just means like he's human.

2580
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:12,640
Speaker 8: So for most of the book, the strange people on

2581
02:27:12,680 --> 02:27:15,959
Speaker 8: the hill are removed on the hill, but when you

2582
02:27:16,080 --> 02:27:20,640
Speaker 8: encounter them, there is this very human intimacy to these encounters.

2583
02:27:21,040 --> 02:27:24,400
Speaker 5: And not only that, everybody has a rough go in

2584
02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:26,720
Speaker 5: this book, including that getting.

2585
02:27:26,520 --> 02:27:28,240
Speaker 3: Raked over the coals by Letitia James.

2586
02:27:28,560 --> 02:27:30,720
Speaker 5: Well, over the course of this that there if you

2587
02:27:30,760 --> 02:27:33,959
Speaker 5: follow their their arc and their arcs throughout the book,

2588
02:27:34,280 --> 02:27:38,680
Speaker 5: but one particular arc, it starts with them really thinking

2589
02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:40,680
Speaker 5: they've got it, like this is like this like high

2590
02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:43,920
Speaker 5: point of Vider's existence. They have a castle. They have

2591
02:27:43,959 --> 02:27:48,040
Speaker 5: a home base that they can use in perpetuity after

2592
02:27:48,120 --> 02:27:51,280
Speaker 5: Brimla leaves, the movement can flourish and grow. This is

2593
02:27:51,360 --> 02:27:52,959
Speaker 5: like this is it. They got a castle.

2594
02:27:53,160 --> 02:27:54,960
Speaker 8: I mean, it would be the perfect place for white

2595
02:27:55,040 --> 02:27:57,440
Speaker 8: nationalists meet up. They haven't really used it that way

2596
02:27:57,520 --> 02:27:59,879
Speaker 8: that much, like every now and again, but like this,

2597
02:28:00,000 --> 02:28:00,280
Speaker 8: this is.

2598
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:02,959
Speaker 5: The best situation they've ever had, Like they're great. And

2599
02:28:02,959 --> 02:28:05,760
Speaker 5: they've also just coming off of getting a whole bunch

2600
02:28:05,800 --> 02:28:08,600
Speaker 5: of dark money donations from two people we don't know

2601
02:28:08,640 --> 02:28:10,560
Speaker 5: who they are, but it's like, you know, four point

2602
02:28:10,680 --> 02:28:15,760
Speaker 5: five mil in like one year through donors Trust, and

2603
02:28:16,520 --> 02:28:19,800
Speaker 5: they're writing really high. And then by the end from

2604
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:22,720
Speaker 5: the Letitia James investigation, it had not turned into a

2605
02:28:22,800 --> 02:28:25,480
Speaker 5: lawsuit yet by that point, under the pressure of that

2606
02:28:26,000 --> 02:28:28,720
Speaker 5: and just under the pressure of just everybody around them,

2607
02:28:28,840 --> 02:28:31,560
Speaker 5: you know, not wanting them to be there, they decided

2608
02:28:31,600 --> 02:28:35,959
Speaker 5: to dial down VideA altogether, and it still exists in

2609
02:28:36,000 --> 02:28:39,000
Speaker 5: the sense of like the Twitter accounts still exists, and

2610
02:28:39,240 --> 02:28:43,200
Speaker 5: Brimo is still writing on substack. Some of it is

2611
02:28:43,240 --> 02:28:46,080
Speaker 5: a legal thing to try to, you know, get them

2612
02:28:46,120 --> 02:28:49,280
Speaker 5: out of the way of Letitia James. But you know

2613
02:28:49,480 --> 02:28:51,760
Speaker 5: they're really broken down. I mean, the videos that they

2614
02:28:51,920 --> 02:28:55,720
Speaker 5: published about their closing, I mean, it's just a laundry

2615
02:28:55,720 --> 02:28:59,040
Speaker 5: list of things that add up to a defeat. I

2616
02:28:59,040 --> 02:29:01,000
Speaker 5: don't think they would disagree with that that they felt

2617
02:29:01,040 --> 02:29:03,760
Speaker 5: defeated by the end. And the people who were in

2618
02:29:03,760 --> 02:29:05,840
Speaker 5: the town, who are so nice and sweet and wonderful

2619
02:29:05,840 --> 02:29:08,760
Speaker 5: and all this, they're laughing as you would right as

2620
02:29:08,760 --> 02:29:11,120
Speaker 5: everyone talked about like when Trump dies and everybody's like, oh,

2621
02:29:11,120 --> 02:29:12,800
Speaker 5: I'm going to do this when Trump dies and all

2622
02:29:12,800 --> 02:29:15,959
Speaker 5: that stuff. Right, it's just liberation from that thing. But

2623
02:29:16,240 --> 02:29:18,920
Speaker 5: ultimately it's a really like if you just look at

2624
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:21,520
Speaker 5: the Brimlows, it is, you know, it is a brutal

2625
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:23,039
Speaker 5: fall by the end of the book.

2626
02:29:23,440 --> 02:29:25,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean ten years ago they were poised to

2627
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:29,480
Speaker 8: be on top of the world and their ideas remain ascendant,

2628
02:29:29,600 --> 02:29:33,240
Speaker 8: but he himself has really fallen. Now he just has

2629
02:29:33,280 --> 02:29:35,680
Speaker 8: the flooded basement of his little racism castle.

2630
02:29:35,840 --> 02:29:38,720
Speaker 5: Well, there's no there's no solidarity on their side. I just,

2631
02:29:38,879 --> 02:29:40,480
Speaker 5: oh god, that's what I saying.

2632
02:29:40,560 --> 02:29:42,280
Speaker 3: Oh, that's one thing they will never happen.

2633
02:29:42,320 --> 02:29:43,119
Speaker 4: I mean, you get.

2634
02:29:43,000 --> 02:29:47,920
Speaker 5: Somebody who annoys me, who is a sort of anti fascist,

2635
02:29:47,959 --> 02:29:49,920
Speaker 5: anti racist, who like annoys the shit out of me,

2636
02:29:50,000 --> 02:29:52,880
Speaker 5: but they they wind up like, you know, being targeted

2637
02:29:53,280 --> 02:29:55,439
Speaker 5: by somebody. I'm like, okay, well.

2638
02:29:55,280 --> 02:29:56,720
Speaker 3: You're not going to gloat about their downfall.

2639
02:29:57,000 --> 02:29:58,640
Speaker 5: But not only that, but it's like now it's time

2640
02:29:58,680 --> 02:30:01,600
Speaker 5: to like, you know, support them. You know, that's the

2641
02:30:01,600 --> 02:30:02,240
Speaker 5: way I feel.

2642
02:30:02,400 --> 02:30:03,880
Speaker 8: And they just don't do that. They don't do that

2643
02:30:03,959 --> 02:30:05,720
Speaker 8: for each other. They hate each other.

2644
02:30:06,280 --> 02:30:09,840
Speaker 5: They're always malignant narcissists because it's always about cloying to

2645
02:30:09,879 --> 02:30:12,480
Speaker 5: the top, right, it's always trying to get power over

2646
02:30:12,520 --> 02:30:13,039
Speaker 5: other people.

2647
02:30:13,080 --> 02:30:14,800
Speaker 8: I mean, everybody wants to be the crab at the

2648
02:30:14,800 --> 02:30:17,280
Speaker 8: top of the bucket, but you're still crabbing a goddamn bucket.

2649
02:30:17,720 --> 02:30:20,880
Speaker 5: There's two strains of maga. I know, mega is a

2650
02:30:20,959 --> 02:30:24,120
Speaker 5: very broad term, and like one of them is really

2651
02:30:24,160 --> 02:30:30,359
Speaker 5: this kind of grift focused, kind of cryptoweb three aligned aspect.

2652
02:30:30,440 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 5: We're just AI and this and like a small number

2653
02:30:33,200 --> 02:30:35,199
Speaker 5: of people, like fifteen percent will go hoard a bunch

2654
02:30:35,240 --> 02:30:40,000
Speaker 5: of like fake coins or whatever things polymarket, like odds

2655
02:30:40,080 --> 02:30:42,879
Speaker 5: or whatever. They're all hoarding information to kind of beat

2656
02:30:42,879 --> 02:30:47,000
Speaker 5: people in polymarket. And then the suckers they you know whatever,

2657
02:30:47,040 --> 02:30:48,560
Speaker 5: the o the rest of it, the bigger percentage of

2658
02:30:48,600 --> 02:30:52,480
Speaker 5: seventy five percent followers, they're taking their money and that's MAGA.

2659
02:30:53,240 --> 02:30:54,560
Speaker 5: That's a big part of bag. And then the other

2660
02:30:54,600 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 5: part is less concerned with money, although money is a

2661
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:03,240
Speaker 5: part of it. Is just ascending and pushing down from

2662
02:31:03,280 --> 02:31:05,480
Speaker 5: a power power space, right, Like you just like to

2663
02:31:06,080 --> 02:31:08,520
Speaker 5: be in a place where they can have power over

2664
02:31:08,600 --> 02:31:12,800
Speaker 5: other people, and usually other people being designated by not

2665
02:31:12,920 --> 02:31:15,200
Speaker 5: looking like them or not behaving like them, or not

2666
02:31:15,280 --> 02:31:20,039
Speaker 5: having the same kind of boyfriend's girlfriends whatever than them.

2667
02:31:20,280 --> 02:31:22,000
Speaker 8: It's like, I mean, I couldn't be happier that Peter

2668
02:31:22,080 --> 02:31:24,879
Speaker 8: Brimlow is going to end his career on the bottom

2669
02:31:24,879 --> 02:31:26,200
Speaker 8: of the heap he was trying to climb.

2670
02:31:26,320 --> 02:31:28,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, yeah, and they'll be the I guarantee you,

2671
02:31:28,640 --> 02:31:32,560
Speaker 5: they'll be more of an effort from us to define

2672
02:31:32,560 --> 02:31:35,600
Speaker 5: his legacy than from them, because they don't care.

2673
02:31:35,840 --> 02:31:38,160
Speaker 3: They don't care, No they they will, they'll use you

2674
02:31:38,240 --> 02:31:38,879
Speaker 3: up and forget you.

2675
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:41,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't care. We will. We will spend more

2676
02:31:41,160 --> 02:31:43,520
Speaker 5: time on him than so we. I mean, we're talking

2677
02:31:43,520 --> 02:31:45,800
Speaker 5: about him right now. We have I have a host

2678
02:31:45,840 --> 02:31:48,240
Speaker 5: of podcast where we talk about these guys all the time, right,

2679
02:31:48,280 --> 02:31:50,360
Speaker 5: so it's a gro always bringing up new guys. I

2680
02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:52,760
Speaker 5: think we're doing a We're doing a full BIOEP on

2681
02:31:52,879 --> 02:31:55,640
Speaker 5: Steven Miller soon. You know, they don't do that. They

2682
02:31:55,640 --> 02:31:58,000
Speaker 5: don't care, They're not like, here's the reason Steven's great.

2683
02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:00,960
Speaker 8: Like no, I mean, Jason Kessel disappeared from the internet

2684
02:32:01,000 --> 02:32:02,800
Speaker 8: a year ago and they don't talk about him anymore.

2685
02:32:02,920 --> 02:32:04,960
Speaker 3: Oh, it's like he never existed.

2686
02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:07,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, but you know what, I hope he

2687
02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:10,480
Speaker 5: stays off that, you know what I mean. I try

2688
02:32:10,480 --> 02:32:14,480
Speaker 5: to find some forgiveness in my heart. You know, maybe

2689
02:32:14,480 --> 02:32:17,160
Speaker 5: it's the Catholic upbringing, whatever, but I try to find

2690
02:32:17,360 --> 02:32:20,280
Speaker 5: some even though he literally who knows what he did

2691
02:32:20,320 --> 02:32:22,760
Speaker 5: that was related to threats I received because he wrote

2692
02:32:22,800 --> 02:32:23,480
Speaker 5: stuff about me.

2693
02:32:23,720 --> 02:32:25,680
Speaker 8: I mean, I think that that series he put on

2694
02:32:25,840 --> 02:32:28,360
Speaker 8: vdare that included information about you and your family certainly

2695
02:32:28,360 --> 02:32:28,760
Speaker 8: didn't help.

2696
02:32:28,840 --> 02:32:33,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. But you know, if he stays offline

2697
02:32:33,040 --> 02:32:35,760
Speaker 5: and he stays like this, Like I hope that he's

2698
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:37,000
Speaker 5: getting some help.

2699
02:32:37,240 --> 02:32:39,480
Speaker 8: That's all anyone ever asked. I mean, that's all I

2700
02:32:39,560 --> 02:32:42,879
Speaker 8: was ever asking for from these guys. I'm not even

2701
02:32:42,920 --> 02:32:44,480
Speaker 8: holding out hope that you change your heart.

2702
02:32:44,560 --> 02:32:47,160
Speaker 3: I just want you to stop doing stuff.

2703
02:32:46,879 --> 02:32:49,600
Speaker 8: About it, yes, I mean, just stop trying to make

2704
02:32:49,640 --> 02:32:50,320
Speaker 8: everything worse.

2705
02:32:50,520 --> 02:32:53,959
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah. Really, Like I mean, but if he's out

2706
02:32:53,959 --> 02:32:56,320
Speaker 5: there and he's like, I'm just gonna, like, you know,

2707
02:32:56,879 --> 02:32:59,080
Speaker 5: keep it quiet. And I have a hard time imagining

2708
02:32:59,120 --> 02:33:02,879
Speaker 5: that guy like any kind of change of heart. But

2709
02:33:03,640 --> 02:33:06,600
Speaker 5: it would be great if he just stayed, just stayed

2710
02:33:06,600 --> 02:33:10,720
Speaker 5: at everything and just lived his life. And you know, privately,

2711
02:33:10,879 --> 02:33:15,000
Speaker 5: I would I would feel some tiny crumb of respect for.

2712
02:33:14,959 --> 02:33:19,120
Speaker 8: That God willing, God willing, and maybe, uh maybe Peter

2713
02:33:19,200 --> 02:33:22,240
Speaker 8: Brimlo will log off forever eventually too.

2714
02:33:22,720 --> 02:33:27,640
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I mean based upon the age that that's yeah.

2715
02:33:27,560 --> 02:33:29,760
Speaker 8: Well he's gonna he's going to do it, permanent log

2716
02:33:29,800 --> 02:33:32,000
Speaker 8: off eventually, permanent.

2717
02:33:31,640 --> 02:33:35,240
Speaker 5: Log off eventually. I've heard all kinds of gossip about

2718
02:33:35,720 --> 02:33:40,800
Speaker 5: from people in Berkeley Springs that Lydia really doesn't want

2719
02:33:40,840 --> 02:33:44,040
Speaker 5: to be associated with the white nationalist movement and really

2720
02:33:44,040 --> 02:33:47,480
Speaker 5: doesn't want us to be associated with the movement in general,

2721
02:33:47,640 --> 02:33:49,200
Speaker 5: just if you want to give it another term that

2722
02:33:49,240 --> 02:33:51,400
Speaker 5: they might use, like dissid and write or whatever. She's

2723
02:33:52,200 --> 02:33:54,240
Speaker 5: I think, I don't know this for a fact that

2724
02:33:54,320 --> 02:33:57,200
Speaker 5: she would never tell me directly. Think about Lydia Bremlo.

2725
02:33:57,720 --> 02:34:01,960
Speaker 5: You're twenty years old. It's very rich. White husband comes

2726
02:34:02,000 --> 02:34:06,440
Speaker 5: by his old for you. He's like fifty seven, and

2727
02:34:07,360 --> 02:34:10,520
Speaker 5: he's recently lost his wife Brimola lost his first wife

2728
02:34:10,879 --> 02:34:15,200
Speaker 5: to cancer. And you're in the kind of heritage seeing

2729
02:34:15,240 --> 02:34:17,560
Speaker 5: your kind of conservative yourself and.

2730
02:34:17,480 --> 02:34:19,000
Speaker 3: This guy conservative.

2731
02:34:19,240 --> 02:34:20,440
Speaker 1: This is this is.

2732
02:34:20,360 --> 02:34:24,200
Speaker 5: Happening around a time in which alien nation is still

2733
02:34:24,480 --> 02:34:25,760
Speaker 5: kind of acceptable.

2734
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:27,440
Speaker 3: I mean, at least in the heritage front set.

2735
02:34:27,480 --> 02:34:30,199
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, on the right it was kind of acceptable.

2736
02:34:30,520 --> 02:34:33,080
Speaker 5: But even you know, even if it's acceptable, the worst

2737
02:34:33,120 --> 02:34:34,720
Speaker 5: you could say about it. He's kind of a bad boy,

2738
02:34:34,920 --> 02:34:36,760
Speaker 5: like a bad you know, he's got right so it's

2739
02:34:36,760 --> 02:34:39,280
Speaker 5: sort of like, ooh, edgy, he's like an edgy bad boy,

2740
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:44,040
Speaker 5: and you kind of get indoctrinated into the movement that way,

2741
02:34:44,560 --> 02:34:47,640
Speaker 5: and you're in a marriage like I don't know, Like

2742
02:34:47,720 --> 02:34:50,120
Speaker 5: when I was like twenty something, I don't know, I

2743
02:34:50,160 --> 02:34:52,240
Speaker 5: didn't know what the hell was going on. So you're

2744
02:34:52,280 --> 02:34:56,119
Speaker 5: in this marriage with this dude, and you have kids now,

2745
02:34:56,440 --> 02:34:59,640
Speaker 5: and you've seen the other side of it, the hell

2746
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:03,160
Speaker 5: of it up close all the time, people shutting down

2747
02:35:03,200 --> 02:35:05,680
Speaker 5: the website. People there were hackers. There's all kinds of

2748
02:35:05,680 --> 02:35:08,280
Speaker 5: things that they're dealing with constantly. Everyone is telling you,

2749
02:35:08,640 --> 02:35:11,800
Speaker 5: everyone other than people in the movement are finding ways.

2750
02:35:11,840 --> 02:35:13,640
Speaker 5: Whenever they get a chance to speak to you, they're

2751
02:35:13,680 --> 02:35:17,520
Speaker 5: telling you, you know, go fuck yourself. We hate this, right,

2752
02:35:17,760 --> 02:35:19,640
Speaker 5: we hate you. We don't like this stuff.

2753
02:35:19,680 --> 02:35:20,720
Speaker 3: It's got to be discouraging.

2754
02:35:20,959 --> 02:35:22,959
Speaker 5: I mean for years and then now all of a sudden,

2755
02:35:23,000 --> 02:35:25,440
Speaker 5: you're turning forty and you've got kids and you're looking

2756
02:35:25,480 --> 02:35:29,000
Speaker 5: at this. I mean, I personally would want to like

2757
02:35:29,120 --> 02:35:31,120
Speaker 5: just get as far away from it as possible. I mean,

2758
02:35:31,120 --> 02:35:33,879
Speaker 5: it just seems like it's just a depressing just you know.

2759
02:35:34,720 --> 02:35:37,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, like I said, that's all I want for these

2760
02:35:37,200 --> 02:35:39,360
Speaker 8: people is that they stop doing harm in the world.

2761
02:35:39,560 --> 02:35:41,280
Speaker 8: And you know, if they have a change of heart,

2762
02:35:41,320 --> 02:35:44,959
Speaker 8: that's wonderful. Don't tell us about it. Yeah, just just

2763
02:35:45,000 --> 02:35:47,720
Speaker 8: log off, Just go be normal, Go get a real job,

2764
02:35:48,000 --> 02:35:51,280
Speaker 8: stop being a Nazi. Just just go just go be

2765
02:35:51,320 --> 02:35:52,000
Speaker 8: a guy in the world.

2766
02:35:52,160 --> 02:35:55,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would really like that. I think they're kind

2767
02:35:55,040 --> 02:35:59,160
Speaker 5: of entering now a sort of post Nazi phase.

2768
02:36:00,600 --> 02:36:01,920
Speaker 8: I mean, because they don't they don't have to be

2769
02:36:02,000 --> 02:36:04,520
Speaker 8: edgy anymore. They're the mainstream Republican politics.

2770
02:36:04,520 --> 02:36:06,400
Speaker 5: Now you can be just you can just be a

2771
02:36:06,440 --> 02:36:08,080
Speaker 5: gracist Nazi at all the time. And that's why it's

2772
02:36:08,080 --> 02:36:10,720
Speaker 5: starting to mutate into like these like whole looks maxing

2773
02:36:10,760 --> 02:36:13,400
Speaker 5: and like you know, which is like in cell but

2774
02:36:13,600 --> 02:36:17,800
Speaker 5: like we're not insuls anymore, we hammer our face whatever,

2775
02:36:18,080 --> 02:36:21,600
Speaker 5: you know. I just think that they're now so they

2776
02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:23,680
Speaker 5: think they're such part of the culture, and it would

2777
02:36:23,680 --> 02:36:26,840
Speaker 5: be it'll be very interesting for me to see if

2778
02:36:26,840 --> 02:36:29,600
Speaker 5: there is a huge change after this, if we see

2779
02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:32,160
Speaker 5: sort of the Trump regime kind of fall, have a

2780
02:36:32,200 --> 02:36:34,840
Speaker 5: really hard fall, and some of this really starts to

2781
02:36:34,920 --> 02:36:38,160
Speaker 5: break up. What will happen and when people like look

2782
02:36:38,200 --> 02:36:40,080
Speaker 5: back at some of the stuff that's happening over the

2783
02:36:40,080 --> 02:36:42,960
Speaker 5: past like a few years, even as there's been this

2784
02:36:43,400 --> 02:36:46,320
Speaker 5: tremendous explosion. If you look at the time from when

2785
02:36:46,360 --> 02:36:49,039
Speaker 5: the book ended, which is again on the election day,

2786
02:36:49,120 --> 02:36:51,920
Speaker 5: the day after the election, I'm twenty twenty four, I mean.

2787
02:36:51,920 --> 02:36:53,039
Speaker 3: What a moment to end things.

2788
02:36:53,120 --> 02:36:55,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, but if you look at that from there to now,

2789
02:36:55,920 --> 02:36:58,400
Speaker 5: you see like that was almost like an endpoint before

2790
02:36:58,400 --> 02:37:01,080
Speaker 5: this new culture that we're in now, where you have

2791
02:37:01,120 --> 02:37:06,000
Speaker 5: the shootings in Minneapolis and it's just the outright violence,

2792
02:37:06,040 --> 02:37:10,240
Speaker 5: the blown up boats, all this stuff. I'm very curious

2793
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:13,440
Speaker 5: to see our culture, if our culture can heal a

2794
02:37:13,480 --> 02:37:16,920
Speaker 5: little bit, how this stuff will be viewed. Yeah.

2795
02:37:16,959 --> 02:37:19,360
Speaker 8: I mean, it is, like you said, it ends before

2796
02:37:19,400 --> 02:37:22,160
Speaker 8: the story is over. But I think, you know, as

2797
02:37:22,240 --> 02:37:25,400
Speaker 8: a portrait of that four year period in that town,

2798
02:37:26,680 --> 02:37:29,520
Speaker 8: I mean, it's fascinating. It is I think applicable to

2799
02:37:29,560 --> 02:37:31,879
Speaker 8: the world outside of Berkeley Springs, but it is a

2800
02:37:32,000 --> 02:37:35,840
Speaker 8: very intimate look at what it means for a weird,

2801
02:37:35,879 --> 02:37:38,800
Speaker 8: old racist blogger to move into the castle that looms

2802
02:37:38,800 --> 02:37:43,280
Speaker 8: above your coffee shop. Absolutely, I don't want to keep

2803
02:37:43,280 --> 02:37:45,240
Speaker 8: you forever, but I just want to remind the listener

2804
02:37:45,360 --> 02:37:47,760
Speaker 8: Strange People on the Hill, how extremism tore a part

2805
02:37:47,800 --> 02:37:51,720
Speaker 8: of small American town by Michael Edison Hayden comes out April.

2806
02:37:51,840 --> 02:37:54,320
Speaker 3: Seventh, Yeah, April seventh, April seventh.

2807
02:37:54,360 --> 02:37:56,640
Speaker 8: You can pre order it now wherever books are sold,

2808
02:37:56,760 --> 02:37:58,360
Speaker 8: or you could just go to a bookstore on April

2809
02:37:58,440 --> 02:38:00,480
Speaker 8: seventh and pick a copy up. I'm going to go

2810
02:38:00,520 --> 02:38:02,959
Speaker 8: ahead and contact my local anarchist bookstore to make sure

2811
02:38:03,000 --> 02:38:04,640
Speaker 8: they have an order in for it, and I recommend

2812
02:38:04,680 --> 02:38:05,080
Speaker 8: you do the.

2813
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:06,520
Speaker 5: Same anarchist bookstore.

2814
02:38:06,560 --> 02:38:10,240
Speaker 3: Better don't buy it on Amazon. I mean you can,

2815
02:38:10,360 --> 02:38:10,800
Speaker 3: but don't.

2816
02:38:10,920 --> 02:38:14,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, and tell your local library that you want them

2817
02:38:14,120 --> 02:38:16,080
Speaker 8: to buy a copy, because that matters too, and that

2818
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:18,560
Speaker 8: gets this book into more people's hands, because not everybody

2819
02:38:18,600 --> 02:38:20,959
Speaker 8: can afford to buy a book. So yeah, requested at

2820
02:38:21,000 --> 02:38:23,560
Speaker 8: your local independent bookstore and your library if you can.

2821
02:38:23,959 --> 02:38:26,840
Speaker 5: Yeah. I heard from friends that like at random places

2822
02:38:26,879 --> 02:38:29,360
Speaker 5: in Illinois and whatever that they can find the book

2823
02:38:30,000 --> 02:38:31,800
Speaker 5: at their local library. They we'll be able to get it.

2824
02:38:31,840 --> 02:38:35,200
Speaker 5: So that's great. Please ask for it and yeah, and

2825
02:38:35,560 --> 02:38:37,800
Speaker 5: enjoy it. I think it'll have. My hope is it

2826
02:38:37,840 --> 02:38:40,320
Speaker 5: has long tail. There's some word of mouth about the era.

2827
02:38:41,000 --> 02:38:44,039
Speaker 5: So something to read, something to read not just now,

2828
02:38:44,080 --> 02:38:45,840
Speaker 5: but also in the future. Yeah.

2829
02:38:45,840 --> 02:38:48,920
Speaker 8: It is a fascinating picture of a particular moment in

2830
02:38:48,959 --> 02:38:52,039
Speaker 8: time that has broader lessons I think.

2831
02:38:52,600 --> 02:38:54,520
Speaker 3: But my thanks so much for coming on. Where can

2832
02:38:54,520 --> 02:38:55,640
Speaker 3: people find you online?

2833
02:38:55,760 --> 02:38:58,560
Speaker 5: Thank you? You're even cooler in person.

2834
02:38:58,800 --> 02:39:00,000
Speaker 3: I just don't thank you.

2835
02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:02,400
Speaker 5: Where can find me online? I'm in Blue Sky? What

2836
02:39:02,720 --> 02:39:04,840
Speaker 5: the hell is? What's I hate? The Blue Sky handles?

2837
02:39:05,160 --> 02:39:07,000
Speaker 5: That was the one thing that you know, people complain

2838
02:39:07,040 --> 02:39:08,720
Speaker 5: about Blue Sky and it's like for me, it's like,

2839
02:39:08,720 --> 02:39:10,840
Speaker 5: what do you even want? Dude, Like, you know, all

2840
02:39:10,879 --> 02:39:13,880
Speaker 5: this stuff is so bad, right, like, what do you

2841
02:39:13,959 --> 02:39:17,040
Speaker 5: even want? It's Michael E. Hayden dot b s K

2842
02:39:17,440 --> 02:39:21,640
Speaker 5: Y dot social s O C I A L. I'm

2843
02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:25,080
Speaker 5: still technically on Twitter at Michael E. Hayden, where I've

2844
02:39:25,080 --> 02:39:27,520
Speaker 5: always been. You know, when I was writing the book

2845
02:39:27,560 --> 02:39:29,400
Speaker 5: and I was recovering from the mental health thing, I

2846
02:39:29,480 --> 02:39:32,039
Speaker 5: wasn't online at all for all twenty twenty four and

2847
02:39:32,120 --> 02:39:36,760
Speaker 5: so my nice that greatered my my ex engagement. In

2848
02:39:36,800 --> 02:39:38,640
Speaker 5: any case, I don't like being on there too much

2849
02:39:38,760 --> 02:39:40,560
Speaker 5: just for anything other than research.

2850
02:39:40,800 --> 02:39:42,920
Speaker 3: And people can find you every week on posting through

2851
02:39:43,120 --> 02:39:43,520
Speaker 3: Jared Hall.

2852
02:39:43,720 --> 02:39:47,360
Speaker 5: Oh that's true. Yeah, just you know, just do that.

2853
02:39:47,480 --> 02:39:49,680
Speaker 5: You can listen to us talk about all kinds of things.

2854
02:39:49,680 --> 02:39:53,640
Speaker 5: We're talking about cospital, We're talking about the ai fruits

2855
02:39:53,879 --> 02:39:57,480
Speaker 5: that we keep finding on our on our feeds now,

2856
02:39:58,400 --> 02:39:59,400
Speaker 5: all kinds of topics.

2857
02:40:00,080 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 3: Fruits.

2858
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:05,320
Speaker 8: Oh, Mike, thank you so much and again by the book.

2859
02:40:05,600 --> 02:40:06,400
Speaker 8: You're gonna love it.

2860
02:40:06,680 --> 02:40:08,480
Speaker 5: Thanks Molly, thanks so much.

2861
02:40:08,600 --> 02:40:09,560
Speaker 1: By book.

2862
02:40:22,959 --> 02:40:26,080
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and this is it could

2863
02:40:26,160 --> 02:40:30,800
Speaker 2: happen Here a podcast about well what's happening. And on

2864
02:40:30,840 --> 02:40:33,440
Speaker 2: March thirtieth, twenty twenty six, which is the day that

2865
02:40:33,520 --> 02:40:36,240
Speaker 2: I started sitting down to write the episode that you're

2866
02:40:36,280 --> 02:40:39,560
Speaker 2: listening to right now, Reuter's published an article announcing the

2867
02:40:39,640 --> 02:40:43,000
Speaker 2: arrival of another twenty five hundred United States Marines in

2868
02:40:43,040 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 2: the Middle East as the Trump administration quote considers options

2869
02:40:47,080 --> 02:40:51,600
Speaker 2: for Iran operations. As you all know, Operation Epic Fury.

2870
02:40:52,320 --> 02:40:54,320
Speaker 2: It's not that I call it, but its name was

2871
02:40:54,400 --> 02:40:57,000
Speaker 2: launched a little over a month ago, with the administration

2872
02:40:57,120 --> 02:41:01,320
Speaker 2: insists and expected duration of four to six weeks, and

2873
02:41:01,360 --> 02:41:04,280
Speaker 2: we're coming up to the end of that timeline. Trump

2874
02:41:04,280 --> 02:41:07,400
Speaker 2: announced the day I record this March thirty first, that

2875
02:41:07,480 --> 02:41:11,400
Speaker 2: he's expecting combat operations to end in two weeks or less.

2876
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:15,360
Speaker 2: So we'll see what happens tomorrow. They're supposed to be

2877
02:41:15,480 --> 02:41:18,520
Speaker 2: a speech by the President on Iran, so we'll know

2878
02:41:18,680 --> 02:41:23,080
Speaker 2: more then, But relevant reporting indicates the Trump administration is

2879
02:41:23,120 --> 02:41:26,160
Speaker 2: at least seriously weighing the feasibility of sending marines in

2880
02:41:26,280 --> 02:41:29,879
Speaker 2: to take and hold Iranian territory, namely Karg Island and

2881
02:41:29,920 --> 02:41:33,120
Speaker 2: potentially other islands in the Strait of Hormos, most of

2882
02:41:33,160 --> 02:41:36,520
Speaker 2: which are inhabited and all of which are heavily defended.

2883
02:41:37,040 --> 02:41:39,240
Speaker 2: If they go through with this, we might be about

2884
02:41:39,280 --> 02:41:41,720
Speaker 2: to watch in real time one of the most consequential

2885
02:41:41,760 --> 02:41:45,520
Speaker 2: disasters in military history, a modern day Gallipoli, in which

2886
02:41:45,600 --> 02:41:49,920
Speaker 2: hundreds or thousands of American soldiers and billions in materiel

2887
02:41:50,240 --> 02:41:54,280
Speaker 2: get chewed up in an unsustainable and unwinnable war of attrition.

2888
02:41:55,040 --> 02:41:57,520
Speaker 2: There's no real way for the average American to know

2889
02:41:57,560 --> 02:42:01,320
Speaker 2: what kind of stockpile our military maintains the most advanced munitions.

2890
02:42:01,400 --> 02:42:04,800
Speaker 2: We're talking precision guided missiles like the Tomahawk cruise missile,

2891
02:42:05,120 --> 02:42:08,600
Speaker 2: but also the interceptor missiles used by our various missile batteries.

2892
02:42:09,240 --> 02:42:12,600
Speaker 2: Estimates suggests the US has already expended about one thousand

2893
02:42:12,640 --> 02:42:15,520
Speaker 2: Tomahawks in a month of combat operations, which would be

2894
02:42:15,640 --> 02:42:19,000
Speaker 2: around a third, maybe a little less, of the total stockpile.

2895
02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:22,000
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound so bad until you realize that our

2896
02:42:22,040 --> 02:42:25,600
Speaker 2: present stockpile of Tomahawks was built up over more than

2897
02:42:25,600 --> 02:42:28,879
Speaker 2: a decade We're only capable of making about one hundred

2898
02:42:28,920 --> 02:42:31,640
Speaker 2: and fifty a year at present levels, which means our

2899
02:42:31,640 --> 02:42:35,080
Speaker 2: military already burned through around seven years worth of these things,

2900
02:42:35,520 --> 02:42:37,720
Speaker 2: maybe more, because in twenty twenty five, the US to

2901
02:42:37,800 --> 02:42:41,800
Speaker 2: finish budget included something like fifty six Tomahawks, even though

2902
02:42:41,840 --> 02:42:45,440
Speaker 2: our largely ineffectual war against the Houthis had already depleted

2903
02:42:45,440 --> 02:42:48,400
Speaker 2: the stockpile. This is a story that you'll hear over

2904
02:42:48,480 --> 02:42:51,240
Speaker 2: and over again in this episode. The US military is

2905
02:42:51,280 --> 02:42:54,760
Speaker 2: actually quite bad at knowing and asking for what it

2906
02:42:54,800 --> 02:42:57,959
Speaker 2: will need, and even worse at predicting accurately what it's

2907
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:01,520
Speaker 2: going to need in the immediate future. Each Tomahawk costs

2908
02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:04,360
Speaker 2: them around three point six million dollars to produce, and

2909
02:43:04,400 --> 02:43:07,600
Speaker 2: these are the only long range offensive weapons mounted by

2910
02:43:07,600 --> 02:43:12,440
Speaker 2: our naval destroyers. Per a source interviewed by Military Watch magazine, quote,

2911
02:43:12,560 --> 02:43:17,160
Speaker 2: without intervention, the Pentagon may be left out of ammunition. Now,

2912
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:20,400
Speaker 2: Tomahawks aren't the only things the US military is low on.

2913
02:43:20,720 --> 02:43:24,160
Speaker 2: For that same article, inventories of anti ballistic missiles and

2914
02:43:24,280 --> 02:43:27,280
Speaker 2: GBU fifty seven bunker buster bombs are estimated to have

2915
02:43:27,320 --> 02:43:31,440
Speaker 2: been almost totally spent, while being significantly more costly to replace.

2916
02:43:32,360 --> 02:43:34,840
Speaker 2: We just don't have granular data on the size of

2917
02:43:34,959 --> 02:43:38,840
Speaker 2: US interceptor missile stockpiles or supply of stuff like Patriot missiles,

2918
02:43:39,120 --> 02:43:41,480
Speaker 2: but we do have a pretty good understanding of how

2919
02:43:41,520 --> 02:43:44,800
Speaker 2: badly our regional allies have depleted their stockpiles of these

2920
02:43:44,800 --> 02:43:48,320
Speaker 2: defensive tools. Bahrain is estimated to have expended eighty seven

2921
02:43:48,320 --> 02:43:51,360
Speaker 2: percent of their Patriot missiles, the UAE and Kuwait are

2922
02:43:51,440 --> 02:43:54,600
Speaker 2: up to seventy five percent, and Qatar is at like

2923
02:43:54,760 --> 02:43:58,680
Speaker 2: forty percent. Experts estimate that Iran has gone through or

2924
02:43:58,760 --> 02:44:02,800
Speaker 2: lost via airstrike roughly a third of their ballistic missile stockpile.

2925
02:44:03,520 --> 02:44:06,840
Speaker 2: This may or may not be accurate, and if it's inaccurate,

2926
02:44:06,879 --> 02:44:09,440
Speaker 2: it may or may not be inaccurate in either direction.

2927
02:44:10,080 --> 02:44:13,760
Speaker 2: Our intel and Israel's intel is often very spotty when

2928
02:44:13,800 --> 02:44:16,520
Speaker 2: it comes to stuff like this. A good illustration of

2929
02:44:16,520 --> 02:44:19,199
Speaker 2: this would be the fact that on March twentieth, Iran

2930
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:23,080
Speaker 2: fired two ICBMs at Diego Garcia, an island in the

2931
02:44:23,080 --> 02:44:26,240
Speaker 2: Indian Ocean that hosts a joint US UK air and

2932
02:44:26,360 --> 02:44:30,040
Speaker 2: naval base. Neither missile did any damage, but that wasn't

2933
02:44:30,080 --> 02:44:32,840
Speaker 2: really the point. The launch of these missiles was a

2934
02:44:32,920 --> 02:44:36,480
Speaker 2: message from the Iranian regime to the US one. Previously,

2935
02:44:36,680 --> 02:44:39,760
Speaker 2: Iran had limited itself to only striking targets within twelve

2936
02:44:39,840 --> 02:44:42,840
Speaker 2: hundred and forty miles of its own borders with ballistic missiles.

2937
02:44:43,120 --> 02:44:47,000
Speaker 2: Diego Garcia is roughly twenty three hundred miles away. Many

2938
02:44:47,160 --> 02:44:50,360
Speaker 2: US analysts had treated for years twelve hundred and forty

2939
02:44:50,360 --> 02:44:53,520
Speaker 2: miles as if it represented an actual hard limit on

2940
02:44:53,560 --> 02:44:57,120
Speaker 2: Iran's striking capability based on what their missiles could reach,

2941
02:44:57,280 --> 02:44:59,400
Speaker 2: as opposed to what it really was, which is a

2942
02:44:59,400 --> 02:45:02,560
Speaker 2: political decision made by Iranian leaders to limit the scope

2943
02:45:02,560 --> 02:45:06,800
Speaker 2: of conflicts. When the Trump administration launched an unprovoked series

2944
02:45:06,800 --> 02:45:09,520
Speaker 2: of joint strikes on Iran, killing a supreme leader in

2945
02:45:09,600 --> 02:45:13,480
Speaker 2: many senior officials, we violated one of the unstated agreements

2946
02:45:13,520 --> 02:45:17,039
Speaker 2: that had held for over decades of conflict. The president's

2947
02:45:17,080 --> 02:45:20,199
Speaker 2: supporters and major hawks on Iran argued that these self

2948
02:45:20,240 --> 02:45:23,920
Speaker 2: imposed limits were allowing Iran's leadership to support terrorism abroad

2949
02:45:24,000 --> 02:45:28,360
Speaker 2: with impunity. The strike on Diego Garcia proved that military

2950
02:45:28,400 --> 02:45:30,960
Speaker 2: analysts had been wrong about the top range of Iran's

2951
02:45:30,959 --> 02:45:33,720
Speaker 2: best ballistic missiles, but it also served as a statement

2952
02:45:33,879 --> 02:45:36,720
Speaker 2: from Iran's new leaders. You've taken the gloves off and

2953
02:45:36,760 --> 02:45:40,359
Speaker 2: thrown out the rule book. Now we have two. Hudson

2954
02:45:40,400 --> 02:45:44,320
Speaker 2: Institute's senior fellow, Khan Kosopoglu, published an analysis that made

2955
02:45:44,360 --> 02:45:45,879
Speaker 2: this same basic argument.

2956
02:45:46,080 --> 02:45:46,600
Speaker 5: Quote.

2957
02:45:46,680 --> 02:45:49,879
Speaker 2: A strike profile extending into the Indian Ocean demonstrates not

2958
02:45:50,000 --> 02:45:54,439
Speaker 2: merely extended range, but Iran's deliberate abandonment of strategic ambiguity.

2959
02:45:54,600 --> 02:45:57,560
Speaker 2: Iran is no longer signaling restraint. It is signaling reach,

2960
02:45:57,640 --> 02:46:01,320
Speaker 2: and doing so under live war fighting conditions. It also

2961
02:46:01,520 --> 02:46:05,760
Speaker 2: more subtly signaled something else. US planners didn't know as

2962
02:46:05,840 --> 02:46:09,000
Speaker 2: much as they thought they did about Iran's capabilities. This

2963
02:46:09,040 --> 02:46:12,119
Speaker 2: has been evident since the war began, despite Trump's claims

2964
02:46:12,120 --> 02:46:16,039
Speaker 2: to have totally annihilated Iran's offensive capability. On March twenty seventh,

2965
02:46:16,080 --> 02:46:18,920
Speaker 2: a combined missile and drone attack at Prince Sultan Air

2966
02:46:18,920 --> 02:46:22,480
Speaker 2: Base in Saudi Arabia injuring more than ten US soldiers,

2967
02:46:22,640 --> 02:46:27,080
Speaker 2: too seriously in damaging several aircraft. One of these, which

2968
02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:29,800
Speaker 2: we have pictures of, was an E three a wax

2969
02:46:30,000 --> 02:46:33,040
Speaker 2: aka the planes with those huge radar dishes on top,

2970
02:46:33,480 --> 02:46:36,280
Speaker 2: and at least one a Wax was destroyed. The Air

2971
02:46:36,280 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 2: Force only has sixteen of these, and only about half

2972
02:46:39,240 --> 02:46:42,440
Speaker 2: our mission capable at any given time. The Army also

2973
02:46:42,480 --> 02:46:44,959
Speaker 2: maintains a fleet of E three's. I found an article

2974
02:46:44,959 --> 02:46:47,520
Speaker 2: in Air and Space Forces Magazine by Chris Gordon and

2975
02:46:47,560 --> 02:46:50,680
Speaker 2: Stephen Lassi, who interviewed Heather Penny. She's a former F

2976
02:46:50,720 --> 02:46:53,440
Speaker 2: sixteen pilot and current director of the Air Force Academy's

2977
02:46:53,480 --> 02:46:57,760
Speaker 2: Institute for Aerospace Studies. Penny said, quote, the loss of

2978
02:46:57,760 --> 02:47:00,879
Speaker 2: this E three is incredibly problematic and how crucial these

2979
02:47:00,879 --> 02:47:05,880
Speaker 2: battle managers are to everything from airspace deconfliction, aircraft deconfliction, targeting,

2980
02:47:05,920 --> 02:47:08,640
Speaker 2: and providing other lethal effects that the entire force needs

2981
02:47:08,640 --> 02:47:13,280
Speaker 2: for the battlespace. E threes provide an irreplaceable service on

2982
02:47:13,360 --> 02:47:16,360
Speaker 2: the battlefield. They act as both airborne radar stations and

2983
02:47:16,440 --> 02:47:19,560
Speaker 2: air traffic control towers, spotting threats up to two hundred

2984
02:47:19,560 --> 02:47:22,640
Speaker 2: and fifty miles away, and providing crucial early warning to

2985
02:47:22,680 --> 02:47:28,080
Speaker 2: forces in combat about incoming threats, particularly missiles and drones, drones,

2986
02:47:28,080 --> 02:47:31,440
Speaker 2: really about anything else. In other words, the E three

2987
02:47:31,560 --> 02:47:34,680
Speaker 2: is really really useful if you're say, planning to have

2988
02:47:34,760 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 2: troops land on islands in a narrow strait surrounded by

2989
02:47:37,680 --> 02:47:41,200
Speaker 2: hostile forces who can shoot at you from the mainland. Now,

2990
02:47:41,320 --> 02:47:45,360
Speaker 2: the A wax themselves aren't technically irreplaceable, but they aren't

2991
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:49,119
Speaker 2: easy to replace, especially on short notice. Each one costs

2992
02:47:49,160 --> 02:47:51,640
Speaker 2: between seven hundred million and a billion dollars, and we

2993
02:47:51,680 --> 02:47:54,800
Speaker 2: don't like, we don't like make them anymore. A wax

2994
02:47:54,840 --> 02:47:57,800
Speaker 2: are old. The average age of our remaining fleet is

2995
02:47:57,920 --> 02:48:01,760
Speaker 2: forty five per irrelevant article colin Task and Purpose magazine.

2996
02:48:01,959 --> 02:48:04,720
Speaker 2: Nobody makes spare parts for the E three's TF thirty

2997
02:48:04,720 --> 02:48:07,600
Speaker 2: three engines anymore, which takes a toll on maintenance. In

2998
02:48:07,640 --> 02:48:10,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, General Mark Kelly, then the head of

2999
02:48:10,040 --> 02:48:13,320
Speaker 2: Air Combat Command, told reporters we basically have thirty one

3000
02:48:13,360 --> 02:48:16,400
Speaker 2: airplanes in hospice care, the most expensive care there is,

3001
02:48:16,560 --> 02:48:18,760
Speaker 2: and we need to get into the maternity business and

3002
02:48:18,840 --> 02:48:22,480
Speaker 2: out of hospices. That's a weird metaphor for a plane

3003
02:48:22,520 --> 02:48:25,160
Speaker 2: designed to help you fight wars, but we'll move past

3004
02:48:25,200 --> 02:48:40,000
Speaker 2: that and into some ads and we're back. So when

3005
02:48:40,000 --> 02:48:42,400
Speaker 2: we left off, I'd mentioned how in twenty twenty two,

3006
02:48:42,440 --> 02:48:44,960
Speaker 2: Mark Kelly, then the head of Air Combat Command, was like,

3007
02:48:45,600 --> 02:48:47,920
Speaker 2: we've only got about thirty one of these A wax

3008
02:48:47,920 --> 02:48:49,880
Speaker 2: and they're at hospice care, and we need to like

3009
02:48:50,120 --> 02:48:53,440
Speaker 2: make some new a wax that are modern and aren't

3010
02:48:53,440 --> 02:48:57,879
Speaker 2: falling apart, and have engines being produced. Unfortunately for our military,

3011
02:48:57,959 --> 02:48:59,080
Speaker 2: but fortunately for.

3012
02:48:59,600 --> 02:49:00,640
Speaker 1: Not our military.

3013
02:49:00,959 --> 02:49:04,520
Speaker 2: The Pentagon voted against getting into the maternity business last year.

3014
02:49:05,040 --> 02:49:08,160
Speaker 2: The E seven Wedgetail, which is in service currently in

3015
02:49:08,200 --> 02:49:10,959
Speaker 2: the Royal Australian Air Force, was meant to replace the

3016
02:49:11,000 --> 02:49:13,440
Speaker 2: E three's for the US Air Force, and the first

3017
02:49:13,440 --> 02:49:15,760
Speaker 2: of twenty six new craft were supposed to arrive from

3018
02:49:15,800 --> 02:49:18,800
Speaker 2: Boeing in twenty twenty seven, but the project was killed

3019
02:49:18,879 --> 02:49:22,640
Speaker 2: last summer. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth argued it was quote

3020
02:49:22,800 --> 02:49:26,760
Speaker 2: sort of late, more expensive and gold plated. Plus Pete

3021
02:49:26,800 --> 02:49:30,320
Speaker 2: warned it might not survive a war with China. Heg

3022
02:49:30,400 --> 02:49:33,439
Speaker 2: Seth's plan was to just have the military use satellites

3023
02:49:33,480 --> 02:49:36,000
Speaker 2: for all their airborne tracking needs, and if we had

3024
02:49:36,040 --> 02:49:38,040
Speaker 2: to have, you know, a plane doing some of that,

3025
02:49:38,120 --> 02:49:40,920
Speaker 2: we could just have Navy E two D Hawkeyes as

3026
02:49:40,959 --> 02:49:44,280
Speaker 2: a temporary replacement. Now, most of my listeners are not

3027
02:49:44,360 --> 02:49:46,800
Speaker 2: Air Force generals, and either of them I but I've

3028
02:49:46,800 --> 02:49:50,360
Speaker 2: read stuff guys who know that kind of thing have written,

3029
02:49:50,480 --> 02:49:53,240
Speaker 2: and I'll tell you this it's a bad fucking idea,

3030
02:49:53,360 --> 02:49:55,720
Speaker 2: or it's widely agreed by the experts to be a

3031
02:49:55,760 --> 02:49:59,080
Speaker 2: bad fucking idea. For one thing, the E seven, which

3032
02:49:59,120 --> 02:50:01,320
Speaker 2: is what we would have been replacing our E threes with,

3033
02:50:01,480 --> 02:50:04,720
Speaker 2: has already proven itself in combat. The AUSSI sent Theirs

3034
02:50:04,760 --> 02:50:06,959
Speaker 2: over to a rock during the fighting against ISIS, and

3035
02:50:07,000 --> 02:50:09,640
Speaker 2: per task and purpose it quote was so reliable that

3036
02:50:09,680 --> 02:50:12,280
Speaker 2: whenever American F twenty two fighters were in theater, the

3037
02:50:12,360 --> 02:50:15,440
Speaker 2: US Air Force asked the AUSSIS to support the US jets.

3038
02:50:16,440 --> 02:50:19,600
Speaker 2: Sixteen retired US Air Force four star generals took the

3039
02:50:19,680 --> 02:50:22,560
Speaker 2: unprecedented step of writing a letter to Congress and begging

3040
02:50:22,640 --> 02:50:26,360
Speaker 2: them to reverse Exseth's decision. They're reasoning why boils down

3041
02:50:26,360 --> 02:50:30,120
Speaker 2: to this, satellites aren't ready to track airborne targets, and

3042
02:50:30,160 --> 02:50:33,840
Speaker 2: the Hawkeye is too small for the job. Congress ultimately

3043
02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:36,760
Speaker 2: reversed course, but it's uncertain when, if ever new E

3044
02:50:36,959 --> 02:50:40,280
Speaker 2: seven's will arrive, certainly not in time for whatever the

3045
02:50:40,280 --> 02:50:43,480
Speaker 2: Trump administration is going to do next. In the meantime,

3046
02:50:43,720 --> 02:50:46,920
Speaker 2: the Air Force is down roughly ten percent or more

3047
02:50:47,120 --> 02:50:50,040
Speaker 2: of its functional fleet of a wax, and we don't

3048
02:50:50,040 --> 02:50:53,080
Speaker 2: even have boots on the ground anywhere. Now, what I

3049
02:50:53,120 --> 02:50:55,640
Speaker 2: think happened here, What I think is behind all of

3050
02:50:55,640 --> 02:50:58,520
Speaker 2: these bad decisions, and this is not something I can verify.

3051
02:50:58,600 --> 02:51:01,760
Speaker 2: This is opinion is that a waks aren't sexy. They're

3052
02:51:01,800 --> 02:51:04,800
Speaker 2: not like a cool weapon system. They don't kill people directly.

3053
02:51:04,879 --> 02:51:09,440
Speaker 2: They facilitate other soldiers and sailors and airmen from killing

3054
02:51:09,720 --> 02:51:13,520
Speaker 2: people using other weapons systems. But you can't threaten somebody

3055
02:51:13,560 --> 02:51:16,320
Speaker 2: with just an a whack. They're not like scary, and

3056
02:51:16,440 --> 02:51:19,000
Speaker 2: you can't show one blowing something up on the news

3057
02:51:19,160 --> 02:51:21,240
Speaker 2: because they don't do that. So I don't think it

3058
02:51:21,280 --> 02:51:24,080
Speaker 2: was a priority for Hegseth or anyone else in his administration,

3059
02:51:24,440 --> 02:51:28,160
Speaker 2: because they're all fucking twelve year olds. Previous administrations and

3060
02:51:28,520 --> 02:51:30,560
Speaker 2: let me be fair here, it's not like they were

3061
02:51:30,600 --> 02:51:33,200
Speaker 2: any more forward thinking. Had kind of looked at our

3062
02:51:33,240 --> 02:51:35,879
Speaker 2: aging fleet and said, eh, good enough, it's not like

3063
02:51:35,879 --> 02:51:38,760
Speaker 2: anyone we're fighting as a better alternative, Right, who cares.

3064
02:51:39,760 --> 02:51:41,520
Speaker 2: It's the same kind of story we just heard with

3065
02:51:41,560 --> 02:51:45,040
Speaker 2: the Tomawks. Right, what the military was already doing was

3066
02:51:45,040 --> 02:51:47,080
Speaker 2: good enough to scrape by in the conflicts it was

3067
02:51:47,120 --> 02:51:50,480
Speaker 2: already fighting, and nobody involved in starting the next conflict

3068
02:51:50,760 --> 02:51:53,320
Speaker 2: was interested in making sure that the military was prepared

3069
02:51:53,360 --> 02:51:57,440
Speaker 2: ahead of time. Now, I recognize all this talk about

3070
02:51:57,440 --> 02:52:00,640
Speaker 2: failures to produce war material in sufficient quantity may make

3071
02:52:00,640 --> 02:52:03,040
Speaker 2: it sound like I'm complaining that our air force isn't

3072
02:52:03,080 --> 02:52:06,160
Speaker 2: buying enough weaponry and that I'm urging us to spend

3073
02:52:06,160 --> 02:52:08,440
Speaker 2: more money producing arms and ammunitions, And that is not

3074
02:52:08,560 --> 02:52:11,480
Speaker 2: my intent. I want exactly the opposite. What I'm trying

3075
02:52:11,520 --> 02:52:14,760
Speaker 2: to do is to highlight how utterly unprepared our administration

3076
02:52:15,040 --> 02:52:18,040
Speaker 2: is for the conflict they started, and how that failure

3077
02:52:18,080 --> 02:52:21,879
Speaker 2: to prepare has made a major military disaster for US forces,

3078
02:52:21,920 --> 02:52:26,360
Speaker 2: not just foreseeable, but likely if the administration makes the

3079
02:52:26,440 --> 02:52:29,280
Speaker 2: decision to send in ground forces or in some other

3080
02:52:29,360 --> 02:52:34,520
Speaker 2: way significantly escalate the pace of our operations against Iran. Now,

3081
02:52:34,560 --> 02:52:37,160
Speaker 2: the mainstream media has done an okay job of reporting

3082
02:52:37,160 --> 02:52:39,760
Speaker 2: on the ammunition shortages that I've discussed, But what I

3083
02:52:39,800 --> 02:52:41,720
Speaker 2: don't think has been a hammered at home enough is

3084
02:52:41,760 --> 02:52:45,120
Speaker 2: that both are expenditure of advanced ammunitions and the loss

3085
02:52:45,280 --> 02:52:49,000
Speaker 2: of multiple aircraft due to Iranian strikes are a kind

3086
02:52:49,000 --> 02:52:52,600
Speaker 2: of attrition, and they are really serious kind of attrition. Now,

3087
02:52:52,680 --> 02:52:54,600
Speaker 2: you may be more familiar with a term attrition as

3088
02:52:54,640 --> 02:52:57,320
Speaker 2: it applies to human casualties in a war or battle,

3089
02:52:57,720 --> 02:53:01,039
Speaker 2: but to an extent, the attrition of interceptor missiles and

3090
02:53:01,080 --> 02:53:04,160
Speaker 2: hard to replace special purpose vehicles like a wax does

3091
02:53:04,160 --> 02:53:06,720
Speaker 2: a lot more to damage US war fighting capability than

3092
02:53:06,800 --> 02:53:09,959
Speaker 2: human losses. A good example of this came in March

3093
02:53:10,040 --> 02:53:14,240
Speaker 2: sixth of this year, after Ronstruck and PERCNN apparently destroyed

3094
02:53:14,280 --> 02:53:17,279
Speaker 2: the radar system for a THAD missile battery in Jordan.

3095
02:53:17,920 --> 02:53:21,800
Speaker 2: BAD stands for Terminal high Altitude Area Defense. These are

3096
02:53:21,840 --> 02:53:26,320
Speaker 2: our absolute best, most effective anti missile defense systems. Each

3097
02:53:26,400 --> 02:53:29,240
Speaker 2: battery costs more than a billion dollars, and each missile

3098
02:53:29,240 --> 02:53:33,080
Speaker 2: a fire costs like twelve point six million dollars. These

3099
02:53:33,120 --> 02:53:36,360
Speaker 2: are part of why you don't have healthcare. Now we

3100
02:53:36,480 --> 02:53:39,400
Speaker 2: know another series of strikes in the UAE quote hit

3101
02:53:39,480 --> 02:53:43,280
Speaker 2: buildings housing similar radar systems to the THAD battery in Jordan.

3102
02:53:43,480 --> 02:53:46,400
Speaker 2: It's unclear if these were damaged or how badly they

3103
02:53:46,480 --> 02:53:49,080
Speaker 2: might have been damaged, and it's going to remain unclear

3104
02:53:49,120 --> 02:53:52,640
Speaker 2: because the workings of these systems are extremely classified. As

3105
02:53:52,640 --> 02:53:55,360
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five, the United States Z ownes and operates

3106
02:53:55,400 --> 02:53:58,760
Speaker 2: a grand total of eight THAD batteries, so at least

3107
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:01,800
Speaker 2: one of eight is now out of commission and two

3108
02:54:01,800 --> 02:54:05,520
Speaker 2: more may have suffered some degree of damage A month

3109
02:54:05,680 --> 02:54:08,320
Speaker 2: into this conflict. That is not the kind of attrition

3110
02:54:08,640 --> 02:54:11,360
Speaker 2: you want to see prior to actually putting boots on

3111
02:54:11,400 --> 02:54:15,560
Speaker 2: the ground. Now, US military spokespeople will point out, whenever asked,

3112
02:54:15,640 --> 02:54:18,160
Speaker 2: that the vast majority of Iranian missiles and drones are

3113
02:54:18,200 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 2: being intercepted, and that Iran is currently firing few of

3114
02:54:21,000 --> 02:54:23,440
Speaker 2: these munitions than they did at the outbreak of hostilities.

3115
02:54:23,760 --> 02:54:25,680
Speaker 2: And what you're supposed to conclude from that is that

3116
02:54:25,720 --> 02:54:28,480
Speaker 2: they're running out because we are doing a better job

3117
02:54:28,520 --> 02:54:31,440
Speaker 2: of attritting them than they are doing of atreating us.

3118
02:54:31,480 --> 02:54:35,320
Speaker 2: And I can't tell you who's actually coming off worse

3119
02:54:35,320 --> 02:54:38,680
Speaker 2: in this fight. I certainly don't have good insight into

3120
02:54:38,680 --> 02:54:41,920
Speaker 2: the levels of Iran stockpiles of the weapons systems that

3121
02:54:42,000 --> 02:54:45,160
Speaker 2: they're using. However, there is reason to doubt that the

3122
02:54:45,280 --> 02:54:47,800
Speaker 2: United States is coming off the better in this conflict.

3123
02:54:48,240 --> 02:54:50,959
Speaker 2: Ari Cicirel is an analyst for the Jewish Institute for

3124
02:54:51,040 --> 02:54:54,199
Speaker 2: National Security of America or JENSA, and he told Fox

3125
02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:57,520
Speaker 2: News quote, overall high missile and drone interception rates have

3126
02:54:57,520 --> 02:54:59,760
Speaker 2: been important, but only tell part of the story. A

3127
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:01,879
Speaker 2: On came into this war with a deliberate plan to

3128
02:55:01,879 --> 02:55:05,320
Speaker 2: dismantle the architecture that makes those strikes possible. It has

3129
02:55:05,360 --> 02:55:08,920
Speaker 2: struck energy infrastructure to upset markets and used cluster munitions

3130
02:55:08,959 --> 02:55:12,879
Speaker 2: to achieve higher hit rates. Because we simply lack good

3131
02:55:12,959 --> 02:55:15,800
Speaker 2: data on this stuff, I can't tell you perfectly how

3132
02:55:15,800 --> 02:55:18,039
Speaker 2: our rate of interceptions has changed from day one to

3133
02:55:18,080 --> 02:55:20,480
Speaker 2: day thirty, but there is evidence in a few different

3134
02:55:20,480 --> 02:55:23,720
Speaker 2: places that in late March, the rate of successful drone

3135
02:55:23,720 --> 02:55:26,640
Speaker 2: attacks on our regional allies like the UAE increased. In

3136
02:55:26,640 --> 02:55:30,160
Speaker 2: other words, more drones were getting through or being launched.

3137
02:55:30,160 --> 02:55:33,359
Speaker 2: But I think getting through is the more supported conclusion,

3138
02:55:33,640 --> 02:55:36,480
Speaker 2: and they're getting through because our defenses have gotten or

3139
02:55:36,560 --> 02:55:40,000
Speaker 2: the defenses of our allies have gotten less effective. The

3140
02:55:40,080 --> 02:55:43,480
Speaker 2: Genser report also notes that Israeli officials have stopped intercepting

3141
02:55:43,560 --> 02:55:47,359
Speaker 2: some cluster munition attacks in order to preserve ammunition, basically

3142
02:55:47,680 --> 02:55:51,080
Speaker 2: not shooting down the cluster munitions that don't look like

3143
02:55:51,120 --> 02:55:54,199
Speaker 2: they're going to hit anything or anyone, because they don't

3144
02:55:54,200 --> 02:55:57,320
Speaker 2: have the ammunition to stop everything. Now, I don't doubt

3145
02:55:57,360 --> 02:56:00,480
Speaker 2: that iron is also feeling somewhat pinched, and the munition department.

3146
02:56:00,480 --> 02:56:02,800
Speaker 2: It would be kind of weird if they weren't both

3147
02:56:02,840 --> 02:56:04,640
Speaker 2: due to how many they fired and how many have

3148
02:56:04,640 --> 02:56:07,280
Speaker 2: been destroyed via air strikes. But the question isn't are

3149
02:56:07,280 --> 02:56:10,600
Speaker 2: they suffering attrition too? It's are they better able to

3150
02:56:10,600 --> 02:56:13,040
Speaker 2: maintain the rate of attrition they're suffering than we are?

3151
02:56:13,360 --> 02:56:15,840
Speaker 2: And while I can't answer that question in absolute terms,

3152
02:56:16,400 --> 02:56:20,280
Speaker 2: I think the answer is probably yes. Iran's ballistic missiles

3153
02:56:20,440 --> 02:56:24,400
Speaker 2: generally cost a few hundred thousand dollars each that interceptor

3154
02:56:24,440 --> 02:56:28,080
Speaker 2: missiles cost, as I said, around thirteen million dollars. Shaheed

3155
02:56:28,160 --> 02:56:31,200
Speaker 2: drones cost like thirty thousand dollars to make and are

3156
02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:34,200
Speaker 2: often stopped by munitions that cost millions to make and

3157
02:56:34,280 --> 02:56:37,200
Speaker 2: are hard to replace. It's also worth noting that the

3158
02:56:37,280 --> 02:56:39,800
Speaker 2: reduction in the total number of missiles fired by Iran

3159
02:56:40,240 --> 02:56:42,880
Speaker 2: is not just due to the fact that they run

3160
02:56:42,920 --> 02:56:46,080
Speaker 2: through some of their stockpileots at least partly a strategic decision,

3161
02:56:46,360 --> 02:56:49,680
Speaker 2: as even Fox News admits quote. Iran has adapted its

3162
02:56:49,720 --> 02:56:53,280
Speaker 2: tactics accordingly, shifting from large barrages to smaller, more frequent

3163
02:56:53,320 --> 02:56:57,800
Speaker 2: attacks designed to maintain constant pressure. While gradually draining defensive resources.

3164
02:56:57,959 --> 02:57:01,040
Speaker 2: These persistent salvos, even if limited in so, force defenders

3165
02:57:01,040 --> 02:57:04,760
Speaker 2: to remain on high alert and continue expending interceptors, accelerating

3166
02:57:04,760 --> 02:57:08,879
Speaker 2: the depletion of already finite stockpiles. Now, there's an important

3167
02:57:08,879 --> 02:57:12,480
Speaker 2: point made towards the end of that paragraph. Persistent attacks

3168
02:57:12,600 --> 02:57:16,080
Speaker 2: forced defenders to remain on high alert. This is true,

3169
02:57:16,360 --> 02:57:20,240
Speaker 2: and it also brings us to another underdiscussed aspect of attrition,

3170
02:57:20,800 --> 02:57:24,720
Speaker 2: the energy and time of the soldiers our administration expects

3171
02:57:24,720 --> 02:57:27,360
Speaker 2: to fight this war for them, And we'll talk about

3172
02:57:27,400 --> 02:57:47,280
Speaker 2: that after another brace of ads.

3173
02:57:40,400 --> 02:57:41,080
Speaker 1: And we're back.

3174
02:57:42,000 --> 02:57:44,520
Speaker 2: Too often, people who want to wargame out how the

3175
02:57:44,640 --> 02:57:47,440
Speaker 2: US will perform in a given conflict just focus on

3176
02:57:47,480 --> 02:57:51,240
Speaker 2: the theoretical capabilities of the vehicles and weapons systems we own.

3177
02:57:51,560 --> 02:57:54,160
Speaker 2: And in its class aircraft carrier has this many planes

3178
02:57:54,160 --> 02:57:56,360
Speaker 2: and so it can unleash this amount of firepower on

3179
02:57:56,400 --> 02:57:58,560
Speaker 2: a target and this amount of time. And that's a

3180
02:57:58,600 --> 02:58:02,040
Speaker 2: bad way to predict combat performance because it ignores the

3181
02:58:02,120 --> 02:58:06,200
Speaker 2: human element. The USS Gerald R Ford a Gerald R

3182
02:58:06,240 --> 02:58:10,520
Speaker 2: Ford class aircraft carrier is what's commonly known as a supercarrier.

3183
02:58:10,760 --> 02:58:13,360
Speaker 2: It can travel for twenty five years before its nuclear

3184
02:58:13,360 --> 02:58:15,680
Speaker 2: reactors need refueling, and it has a complement of more

3185
02:58:15,680 --> 02:58:17,880
Speaker 2: than forty five hundred men and women. It is a

3186
02:58:18,000 --> 02:58:20,720
Speaker 2: small city at sea, and I've talked in the past

3187
02:58:20,760 --> 02:58:23,840
Speaker 2: about how hard these things are to actually sink. During

3188
02:58:23,879 --> 02:58:26,320
Speaker 2: the Ford's deployment to fight the Hoothies, there were viral

3189
02:58:26,440 --> 02:58:30,320
Speaker 2: rumors stoked by AIMS information that it had been seriously

3190
02:58:30,440 --> 02:58:33,840
Speaker 2: damaged or even destroyed by a Hoothy ballistic missile strike.

3191
02:58:34,240 --> 02:58:36,720
Speaker 2: Now I pointed out at the time that this was fanciful.

3192
02:58:36,959 --> 02:58:39,640
Speaker 2: The defense systems on a boat like this cost billions

3193
02:58:39,680 --> 02:58:43,879
Speaker 2: and provide excellent, proven protection against most missiles, drones, and aircraft.

3194
02:58:43,959 --> 02:58:47,440
Speaker 2: It's likely to encounter. The entire naval battlegroup it travels

3195
02:58:47,520 --> 02:58:51,400
Speaker 2: with exists to protect and enhance the carrier's capabilities, and

3196
02:58:51,480 --> 02:58:53,440
Speaker 2: even if it were stripped of all those things, these

3197
02:58:53,440 --> 02:58:56,640
Speaker 2: boats are just so damn tough to fucking sink. In

3198
02:58:56,680 --> 02:58:58,959
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, the US Navy conducted a live

3199
02:58:59,040 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 2: fire test to sink retired Kitty Hawk class supercarrier. Per

3200
02:59:02,640 --> 02:59:05,360
Speaker 2: an article in Forbes, the carrier endured nearly a month

3201
02:59:05,400 --> 02:59:08,640
Speaker 2: of intense weaponized testing and was finally scuttled via internal

3202
02:59:08,680 --> 02:59:11,360
Speaker 2: explosive charges. It should be added that the warship had

3203
02:59:11,400 --> 02:59:13,760
Speaker 2: been decommissioned nearly a decade earlier and was in poor

3204
02:59:13,840 --> 02:59:17,000
Speaker 2: material condition. There were also no damage control efforts to

3205
02:59:17,040 --> 02:59:20,840
Speaker 2: save the ship. In February of this year, just days

3206
02:59:20,879 --> 02:59:24,280
Speaker 2: before his own death, Iran's former Supreme Leader Iatola ali

3207
02:59:24,360 --> 02:59:28,000
Speaker 2: Hameni threatened the US carriers operating in the Persian Gulf

3208
02:59:28,040 --> 02:59:31,560
Speaker 2: in a post on Twitter because it's fucking twenty twenty

3209
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:35,240
Speaker 2: six quote the Americans constantly say that they've sent a

3210
02:59:35,240 --> 02:59:37,920
Speaker 2: warship towards Iran. Of course, a warship is a dangerous

3211
02:59:37,920 --> 02:59:41,240
Speaker 2: piece of military hardware. However, more dangerous than that warship

3212
02:59:41,280 --> 02:59:43,879
Speaker 2: is the weapon that can send that warship to the bottom.

3213
02:59:43,560 --> 02:59:44,080
Speaker 1: Of the sea.

3214
02:59:45,160 --> 02:59:47,720
Speaker 2: Now kind of unclear exactly what he was talking about.

3215
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:50,119
Speaker 2: Maybe it's some sort of secret weapon that the Iranians

3216
02:59:50,160 --> 02:59:52,200
Speaker 2: have that we don't know about, But we do know

3217
02:59:52,240 --> 02:59:55,240
Speaker 2: that Iranian negotiators are currently talking with the People's Republic

3218
02:59:55,240 --> 02:59:59,039
Speaker 2: of China about purchasing CM three H two supersonic missiles.

3219
02:59:59,320 --> 03:00:02,120
Speaker 2: These were developed by Chinese military planners to fly low

3220
03:00:02,160 --> 03:00:04,920
Speaker 2: and fast, avoiding most of the layered defenses a boat

3221
03:00:05,080 --> 03:00:08,320
Speaker 2: like the Ford and joys their carrier killer missiles, or

3222
03:00:08,360 --> 03:00:11,640
Speaker 2: at least that's the idea. Beijing also has a line

3223
03:00:11,680 --> 03:00:15,000
Speaker 2: of land based carrier killer missiles, because if you think

3224
03:00:15,040 --> 03:00:17,279
Speaker 2: you might wind up in a war with the United States,

3225
03:00:17,360 --> 03:00:20,119
Speaker 2: it probably booves you to think about how you would

3226
03:00:20,200 --> 03:00:24,280
Speaker 2: kill an aircraft carrier. Now, again, Iran doesn't have any

3227
03:00:24,320 --> 03:00:27,920
Speaker 2: of these weapons systems yet, at least not to our knowledge.

3228
03:00:28,360 --> 03:00:31,119
Speaker 2: But this war of choice by the United States didn't

3229
03:00:31,120 --> 03:00:34,400
Speaker 2: come as a complete surprise. The Iranian military and the

3230
03:00:34,400 --> 03:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps have been preparing to fight this

3231
03:00:37,879 --> 03:00:41,280
Speaker 2: war for quite some time. Those preparations have included the

3232
03:00:41,280 --> 03:00:44,959
Speaker 2: construction of multiple fake aircraft carriers, which their forces have

3233
03:00:45,040 --> 03:00:48,640
Speaker 2: sunk in a variety of wargames exercises. The most recent

3234
03:00:48,680 --> 03:00:52,640
Speaker 2: of these occurred in twenty twenty. The Prophet Muhammed fourteen

3235
03:00:52,760 --> 03:00:55,040
Speaker 2: exercise was meant to prepare for an attack on a

3236
03:00:55,080 --> 03:00:58,360
Speaker 2: Nimitz class carrier, and ironically, Iran made it too easy

3237
03:00:58,400 --> 03:01:00,400
Speaker 2: to sink, which caused it to go down while it

3238
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:03,560
Speaker 2: was being towed in an inconvenient location that temporarily blocked

3239
03:01:03,600 --> 03:01:05,920
Speaker 2: a canal. And that should act as a warning that

3240
03:01:06,320 --> 03:01:09,840
Speaker 2: just as American military planners and analysts fuck up constantly,

3241
03:01:10,120 --> 03:01:13,279
Speaker 2: so two to their Iranian counterparts, and we shouldn't assume

3242
03:01:13,360 --> 03:01:16,000
Speaker 2: our guys are a bunch of hegseth looking chuckle fucks.

3243
03:01:16,080 --> 03:01:19,959
Speaker 2: While Iran's Pentagon equivalent is staffed entirely by hard eyed professionals.

3244
03:01:20,440 --> 03:01:23,959
Speaker 2: Every military has dipshit officers and has to deal with

3245
03:01:24,080 --> 03:01:26,960
Speaker 2: bad calls made by people with political power that function

3246
03:01:27,160 --> 03:01:30,040
Speaker 2: up for everyone. What you should take from this, though,

3247
03:01:30,120 --> 03:01:32,840
Speaker 2: is that Iran is a country with a large, comparatively

3248
03:01:32,920 --> 03:01:37,320
Speaker 2: well funded and prepared military. They regularly invent and sell

3249
03:01:37,360 --> 03:01:40,360
Speaker 2: weapons systems that are utilized around the world, and they've

3250
03:01:40,360 --> 03:01:44,000
Speaker 2: been obsessively planning to kill an aircraft carrier for years

3251
03:01:44,440 --> 03:01:46,080
Speaker 2: and now that doesn't mean they're going to sink one.

3252
03:01:46,160 --> 03:01:48,720
Speaker 2: In fact, I still think that's pretty close to impossible,

3253
03:01:48,720 --> 03:01:51,440
Speaker 2: at least with the technology we know they have. But

3254
03:01:51,520 --> 03:01:54,519
Speaker 2: they don't need to sink one to render it inoperable.

3255
03:01:55,040 --> 03:01:57,160
Speaker 2: Just hitting the top of it could be enough to

3256
03:01:57,200 --> 03:01:59,879
Speaker 2: do serious damage that would render it combat and capable

3257
03:02:00,120 --> 03:02:02,280
Speaker 2: for an extended period of time. And to back me

3258
03:02:02,360 --> 03:02:05,320
Speaker 2: up on that point, a few weeks ago, while it

3259
03:02:05,440 --> 03:02:09,160
Speaker 2: was actively engaged in combat operations against Iranian forces, a

3260
03:02:09,200 --> 03:02:12,640
Speaker 2: fire started on board the Jerry Ford. It began in

3261
03:02:12,720 --> 03:02:15,680
Speaker 2: the laundry room, or at least in an area related

3262
03:02:15,760 --> 03:02:18,800
Speaker 2: to the vast laundry system that a vehicle like this

3263
03:02:19,040 --> 03:02:23,359
Speaker 2: has kind of a little unclear exactly what happened. According

3264
03:02:23,400 --> 03:02:25,560
Speaker 2: to the New York Times, though the fire alone took

3265
03:02:25,760 --> 03:02:29,760
Speaker 2: thirty hours to put out. Now, the Navy disputes this,

3266
03:02:30,360 --> 03:02:32,520
Speaker 2: that the ship was burning for more than a day,

3267
03:02:33,040 --> 03:02:35,959
Speaker 2: but they provided no reason anyone should actually trust them.

3268
03:02:35,959 --> 03:02:39,080
Speaker 2: Here I found an article published in the National Interest

3269
03:02:39,120 --> 03:02:42,680
Speaker 2: by Peter Soussio. He writes that quote the fire caused

3270
03:02:42,680 --> 03:02:45,560
Speaker 2: far greater damage than was initially reported, with one sailor

3271
03:02:45,640 --> 03:02:48,600
Speaker 2: medically evacuated from the ship and two hundred more treated

3272
03:02:48,640 --> 03:02:52,000
Speaker 2: for smoke inhalation. I'm not surprised that the Navy wanted

3273
03:02:52,000 --> 03:02:54,280
Speaker 2: to hide the extent of the damage its biggest warship

3274
03:02:54,360 --> 03:02:57,440
Speaker 2: suffered due to a laundry fire. But this reinforces how

3275
03:02:57,560 --> 03:03:00,960
Speaker 2: unreliable the Navy is as an ongoing source in these matters.

3276
03:03:01,280 --> 03:03:05,240
Speaker 2: Soussio notes, quote, there remained conflicting accounts of the fire

3277
03:03:05,280 --> 03:03:08,199
Speaker 2: in the media, and the Pentagon seemingly attempted to downplay

3278
03:03:08,200 --> 03:03:10,840
Speaker 2: the severity of the fire in the immediate aftermath, leading

3279
03:03:10,840 --> 03:03:14,520
Speaker 2: to later confusion. What we do know is that the Ford,

3280
03:03:14,680 --> 03:03:17,400
Speaker 2: a small city on the sea, lost all ability to

3281
03:03:17,480 --> 03:03:21,200
Speaker 2: launder clothing, betting, and anything else. This caused an immediate

3282
03:03:21,280 --> 03:03:24,520
Speaker 2: hygiene issue aboard and a logistic nightmare for the Navy,

3283
03:03:24,760 --> 03:03:27,959
Speaker 2: which had to fly in clean clothing at terrific expense.

3284
03:03:28,520 --> 03:03:31,080
Speaker 2: Saying a supercarrier was taken out of commission by a

3285
03:03:31,200 --> 03:03:34,440
Speaker 2: laundry fire sounds silly, but you can't keep a town

3286
03:03:34,520 --> 03:03:37,640
Speaker 2: of forty five hundred people going if no one can

3287
03:03:37,680 --> 03:03:41,160
Speaker 2: do the laundry. The fire seems to have also done

3288
03:03:41,240 --> 03:03:44,480
Speaker 2: extensive damage to crew living quarters, which forced a thousand

3289
03:03:44,520 --> 03:03:47,280
Speaker 2: mattresses to be flown in while the crew slept. Well,

3290
03:03:47,840 --> 03:03:50,640
Speaker 2: wherever they were sleeping, it wasn't in their bunks. Now

3291
03:03:50,640 --> 03:03:53,480
Speaker 2: we don't know how the fire started again, but unconfirmed

3292
03:03:53,520 --> 03:03:57,920
Speaker 2: reports have blamed sabotage by members of the Gerald Ford's crew.

3293
03:03:58,720 --> 03:04:00,440
Speaker 2: I can't tell you if this is true were not,

3294
03:04:00,640 --> 03:04:02,720
Speaker 2: but if it is, it would not be the first

3295
03:04:02,720 --> 03:04:06,480
Speaker 2: time something like this happened. In twenty twelve, a civilian

3296
03:04:06,560 --> 03:04:09,840
Speaker 2: contractor started a fire aboard the USS Miami and attacked

3297
03:04:09,879 --> 03:04:13,240
Speaker 2: submarine because he wanted to leave work early. The fire

3298
03:04:13,320 --> 03:04:15,640
Speaker 2: cost four hundred million dollars in damage and led to

3299
03:04:15,640 --> 03:04:19,080
Speaker 2: the vessel being decommissioned. Two years later, the contractor was

3300
03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:23,400
Speaker 2: sentenced to seventeen years in prison. Nabal sabotage was an

3301
03:04:23,400 --> 03:04:25,880
Speaker 2: even bigger business during the latter stages of the war

3302
03:04:25,920 --> 03:04:29,560
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. In December of nineteen seventy two, Jeffrey Allison,

3303
03:04:29,640 --> 03:04:32,160
Speaker 2: a nineteen year old sailor from Oakland, was sentenced to

3304
03:04:32,200 --> 03:04:34,480
Speaker 2: five years in prison for lighting a fire aboard an

3305
03:04:34,480 --> 03:04:38,840
Speaker 2: aircraft carrier, the USS Forestall that same year, a sailor

3306
03:04:38,879 --> 03:04:42,520
Speaker 2: aboard the USS Ranger, another supercarrier, delayed its deployment to

3307
03:04:42,560 --> 03:04:45,360
Speaker 2: the Pacific by three months by allegedly sticking a paint

3308
03:04:45,400 --> 03:04:49,080
Speaker 2: scraper in the main reduction gear, which disabled an engine.

3309
03:04:49,280 --> 03:04:52,279
Speaker 2: Per an article in the Alameda Post, the Navy's official

3310
03:04:52,360 --> 03:04:55,120
Speaker 2: history of the Ranger confirms that sabotage was becoming more

3311
03:04:55,160 --> 03:04:59,160
Speaker 2: popular as the war in Vietnam became more unpopular. Sabotage

3312
03:04:59,280 --> 03:05:03,039
Speaker 2: happens every all day. A crewman serving aboard another carrier

3313
03:05:03,080 --> 03:05:07,160
Speaker 2: based in Alameda, the Oriskany, was quoted as saying, now

3314
03:05:07,160 --> 03:05:10,360
Speaker 2: these sailors, the folks sabotaging their own warships in the

3315
03:05:10,400 --> 03:05:12,879
Speaker 2: later stages of the Vietnam War were part of the

3316
03:05:12,920 --> 03:05:16,959
Speaker 2: so called SOS movement, a protest campaign launched and sustained

3317
03:05:17,080 --> 03:05:20,000
Speaker 2: entirely by sailors angry at being forced to participate in

3318
03:05:20,040 --> 03:05:23,119
Speaker 2: the war against Vietnam. The movement gained its name from

3319
03:05:23,120 --> 03:05:26,080
Speaker 2: an active protest in nineteen seventy one, when forty sailors

3320
03:05:26,120 --> 03:05:28,520
Speaker 2: stood on the flight deck of their returning aircraft carrier

3321
03:05:28,560 --> 03:05:32,920
Speaker 2: and spelled out SOS with their bodies again. I don't

3322
03:05:32,959 --> 03:05:36,119
Speaker 2: know if sabotage caused the fire on the Gerald Ford,

3323
03:05:36,160 --> 03:05:38,280
Speaker 2: and neither it is anyone else, but there are good

3324
03:05:38,360 --> 03:05:41,600
Speaker 2: reasons to believe it did. As Senator Mark Warner, vice

3325
03:05:41,720 --> 03:05:44,320
Speaker 2: chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in late March,

3326
03:05:44,520 --> 03:05:46,320
Speaker 2: the Ford and its crew have been pushed to the

3327
03:05:46,320 --> 03:05:50,040
Speaker 2: brink after nearly a year at sea normal deployment for

3328
03:05:50,120 --> 03:05:53,280
Speaker 2: sailors on before it is like six months. Come April,

3329
03:05:53,360 --> 03:05:56,039
Speaker 2: it will break the record for the longest post Vietnam

3330
03:05:56,120 --> 03:05:59,720
Speaker 2: carrier deployment two hundred and ninety four days. Crew members

3331
03:05:59,760 --> 03:06:02,440
Speaker 2: have been told their deployment will likely be extended to May,

3332
03:06:02,640 --> 03:06:04,400
Speaker 2: at which point they'll have been at sea for an

3333
03:06:04,520 --> 03:06:05,240
Speaker 2: entire year.

3334
03:06:05,920 --> 03:06:06,120
Speaker 5: Now.

3335
03:06:06,120 --> 03:06:08,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to really expect anyone to pour out

3336
03:06:08,680 --> 03:06:11,039
Speaker 2: their sympathy for sailors on a warship that has helped

3337
03:06:11,040 --> 03:06:13,440
Speaker 2: to kill a minimum of fifteen hundred Iranians so far,

3338
03:06:13,520 --> 03:06:16,280
Speaker 2: including two hundred children. But you don't need to feel

3339
03:06:16,320 --> 03:06:18,520
Speaker 2: bad for all the lost birthdays and weddings and missed

3340
03:06:18,520 --> 03:06:22,080
Speaker 2: funerals to understand the deleterious effect that this has on morale.

3341
03:06:22,520 --> 03:06:26,000
Speaker 2: Fighting spirit has adjust a buzzword. When soldiers are exhausted

3342
03:06:26,040 --> 03:06:28,560
Speaker 2: and pissed off, they're likely to fuck things up. And

3343
03:06:28,600 --> 03:06:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm not just talking about grand acts of sabotage when

3344
03:06:31,920 --> 03:06:34,320
Speaker 2: it was still off the coast of Venezuela earlier. In

3345
03:06:34,360 --> 03:06:37,720
Speaker 2: this deployment, the Ford suffered massive recurrent issues with its

3346
03:06:37,720 --> 03:06:40,240
Speaker 2: plumbing system, which was ripped off a design used in

3347
03:06:40,280 --> 03:06:43,840
Speaker 2: cruise ships and works very badly. I can't exaggerate how

3348
03:06:43,920 --> 03:06:46,440
Speaker 2: bad the sewage systems on the Ford work. They are

3349
03:06:46,480 --> 03:06:50,720
Speaker 2: broken fucking constantly, and per the Alameda Post, some crew

3350
03:06:50,720 --> 03:06:54,360
Speaker 2: members may be intentionally exacerbating problems with defective toilets aboard

3351
03:06:54,360 --> 03:06:56,879
Speaker 2: the ship by flushing t shirts and other objects, as

3352
03:06:56,920 --> 03:06:59,760
Speaker 2: documented in an email from the ship's engineering department, obtained

3353
03:06:59,760 --> 03:07:03,320
Speaker 2: by ebr our sewage system is being mistreated and destroyed

3354
03:07:03,320 --> 03:07:06,240
Speaker 2: by sailors on a daily basis. That March twenty twenty

3355
03:07:06,240 --> 03:07:09,320
Speaker 2: five email stated, my whole maintenance technicians are currently working

3356
03:07:09,400 --> 03:07:11,360
Speaker 2: nineteen hours a day right now to keep up with

3357
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:15,200
Speaker 2: the demand. It's a lot of flushed shirts. Now, what

3358
03:07:15,240 --> 03:07:17,720
Speaker 2: I'm building to is that there's a perfectly good chance

3359
03:07:17,760 --> 03:07:20,119
Speaker 2: this fire didn't even start as an act of sabotage,

3360
03:07:20,360 --> 03:07:24,000
Speaker 2: but because somebody fucked up, maybe because they were exhausted,

3361
03:07:24,240 --> 03:07:26,800
Speaker 2: maybe because they've just been running the machines too long.

3362
03:07:26,840 --> 03:07:29,920
Speaker 2: The laundry is always going all this thing's underway, and

3363
03:07:30,000 --> 03:07:32,400
Speaker 2: if it's going for months longer, the normal shit like

3364
03:07:32,480 --> 03:07:34,640
Speaker 2: lint is going to build up. In fact, I want

3365
03:07:34,680 --> 03:07:36,840
Speaker 2: to read a quote from that article in the National Interest.

3366
03:07:37,360 --> 03:07:39,680
Speaker 2: If the ducks haven't been cleaned out properly, it is

3367
03:07:39,760 --> 03:07:43,120
Speaker 2: easy for small lint particles to catch fire, potentially leading

3368
03:07:43,120 --> 03:07:45,960
Speaker 2: to a larger blaze, not unlike a house fire caused

3369
03:07:46,000 --> 03:07:50,199
Speaker 2: by lint build up. So again, this fire was certainly

3370
03:07:50,200 --> 03:07:53,040
Speaker 2: not enough to sink the gerald Ford. It didn't destroy it,

3371
03:07:53,360 --> 03:07:56,280
Speaker 2: but it did enough damage that it became combat and

3372
03:07:56,360 --> 03:08:00,560
Speaker 2: effective or at least you could argue that's the case.

3373
03:08:00,920 --> 03:08:03,920
Speaker 2: You know, obviously we replace it with a different carrier group.

3374
03:08:04,200 --> 03:08:07,400
Speaker 2: There's not just not a carrier now, but the ford

3375
03:08:07,600 --> 03:08:11,040
Speaker 2: was not originally scheduled to leave, and left as a

3376
03:08:11,080 --> 03:08:14,840
Speaker 2: result of the fire in order to undergo repairs. That

3377
03:08:14,920 --> 03:08:17,920
Speaker 2: gets it something very important, very relevant to the question

3378
03:08:17,959 --> 03:08:21,080
Speaker 2: of how a higher intensity war, one involving ground troops

3379
03:08:21,080 --> 03:08:23,920
Speaker 2: against Iran would go, because while Iran may or may

3380
03:08:23,959 --> 03:08:25,920
Speaker 2: not be able to sync a carrier, they certainly have

3381
03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:28,880
Speaker 2: the tools to potentially hit one, starting a fire or

3382
03:08:28,920 --> 03:08:32,360
Speaker 2: just damaging the deck badly enough to render it combat ineffective.

3383
03:08:33,160 --> 03:08:36,400
Speaker 2: And if these deployment cycles keep getting extended, if sailors

3384
03:08:36,400 --> 03:08:38,920
Speaker 2: are kept at a high operational tempo for days or

3385
03:08:38,959 --> 03:08:42,119
Speaker 2: weeks or months at a time, people will start fucking up.

3386
03:08:42,200 --> 03:08:44,360
Speaker 2: And some of those fuck ups have a chance, as

3387
03:08:44,360 --> 03:08:48,480
Speaker 2: we've already seen, to remove the ship from being combat capable,

3388
03:08:48,560 --> 03:08:51,400
Speaker 2: or to remove other ships from being combat capable.

3389
03:08:51,760 --> 03:08:52,640
Speaker 4: If you're talking from.

3390
03:08:52,600 --> 03:08:55,840
Speaker 2: Perspective US marines trying to hold onto an island surrounded

3391
03:08:55,879 --> 03:08:59,480
Speaker 2: by enemies, this is a really scary thing. The fact

3392
03:08:59,480 --> 03:09:02,760
Speaker 2: that your source of air support might not be able

3393
03:09:02,800 --> 03:09:06,000
Speaker 2: to function because somebody fucks up or sabotages it, there's

3394
03:09:06,040 --> 03:09:09,520
Speaker 2: a fire, it gets hit. You know, these boats are

3395
03:09:09,560 --> 03:09:12,360
Speaker 2: not sinkable, but in certain ways they're a lot more

3396
03:09:12,440 --> 03:09:15,640
Speaker 2: fragile than people are used to thinking of them as being.

3397
03:09:16,000 --> 03:09:19,000
Speaker 2: Aircraft carriers have been gods of the sea for so long.

3398
03:09:19,560 --> 03:09:22,040
Speaker 2: I think it really is something people ought to pay

3399
03:09:22,080 --> 03:09:25,760
Speaker 2: attention to. The fact that this simple laundry fire took

3400
03:09:25,840 --> 03:09:30,039
Speaker 2: the Jerry Ford out of the theater matters. The longer

3401
03:09:30,040 --> 03:09:31,840
Speaker 2: the US keeps fighting, and the longer we keep our

3402
03:09:31,840 --> 03:09:35,400
Speaker 2: ships deployed chasing Donald Trump's dreams, the higher the odds

3403
03:09:35,440 --> 03:09:38,600
Speaker 2: that something else goes wrong. Yet, whether it's just exhausted

3404
03:09:38,640 --> 03:09:42,280
Speaker 2: soldiers screwing up, angry sailors sabotaging things to protest an

3405
03:09:42,360 --> 03:09:46,000
Speaker 2: unpopular war, or a damned lucky shot, the Pentagon is

3406
03:09:46,040 --> 03:09:49,720
Speaker 2: continuing to roll those dice every day, and I guess

3407
03:09:49,760 --> 03:09:52,039
Speaker 2: we'll see what happens next. That's all I've got for

3408
03:09:52,120 --> 03:09:55,960
Speaker 2: you right now, everybody. Hopefully we're not invading the islands

3409
03:09:55,959 --> 03:09:58,000
Speaker 2: with ground troops by the time this episode comes out,

3410
03:09:58,080 --> 03:09:58,640
Speaker 2: but we might be.

3411
03:10:14,280 --> 03:10:17,640
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly

3412
03:10:17,680 --> 03:10:20,680
Speaker 3: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

3413
03:10:20,680 --> 03:10:22,720
Speaker 3: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today

3414
03:10:22,720 --> 03:10:26,160
Speaker 3: and joined by Mia Wong and James Stout. This episode,

3415
03:10:26,200 --> 03:10:28,959
Speaker 3: we are covering the week of March twenty fifth to

3416
03:10:29,120 --> 03:10:30,439
Speaker 3: April first.

3417
03:10:30,600 --> 03:10:33,280
Speaker 1: And so we're all gonna do silly things that aren't

3418
03:10:33,320 --> 03:10:36,000
Speaker 1: really news. No, we're not going to do it when

3419
03:10:36,400 --> 03:10:37,840
Speaker 1: I love it when outlets do that.

3420
03:10:38,200 --> 03:10:40,520
Speaker 3: This comes out Friday. This comes out Friday, it's over.

3421
03:10:40,680 --> 03:10:41,320
Speaker 3: It's done.

3422
03:10:42,000 --> 03:10:44,720
Speaker 1: Normal Fish of April Day. For all those French people

3423
03:10:44,720 --> 03:10:45,800
Speaker 1: out there now.

3424
03:10:45,840 --> 03:10:49,080
Speaker 3: With the midterm elections rapidly approaching, I know everyone's going

3425
03:10:49,160 --> 03:10:52,000
Speaker 3: to get tired of election news, but there is some

3426
03:10:52,160 --> 03:10:55,720
Speaker 3: very impertant voting that needs to happen in these next

3427
03:10:55,920 --> 03:11:01,000
Speaker 3: few weeks because it could happen here. Show called Behind

3428
03:11:01,000 --> 03:11:06,520
Speaker 3: the Bastards and James's excellent series Migrating to America have

3429
03:11:06,640 --> 03:11:11,840
Speaker 3: been nominated for Webby Awards. You know the Emmys. Yeah,

3430
03:11:11,879 --> 03:11:15,400
Speaker 3: they're like those, except they're for the Internet. But they're

3431
03:11:15,480 --> 03:11:17,000
Speaker 3: just as serious.

3432
03:11:17,400 --> 03:11:18,000
Speaker 1: More serious.

3433
03:11:18,000 --> 03:11:20,320
Speaker 3: Some people are saying, the Internet's obviously is more real

3434
03:11:20,360 --> 03:11:21,000
Speaker 3: than television.

3435
03:11:21,080 --> 03:11:22,520
Speaker 4: No one watches TV anymore.

3436
03:11:22,640 --> 03:11:26,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the Emmy's people who want boom is people.

3437
03:11:25,959 --> 03:11:29,760
Speaker 3: Are saying, so this is This is obviously very exciting

3438
03:11:30,280 --> 03:11:36,600
Speaker 3: and voting lasts until April sixteenth. There will be links

3439
03:11:36,680 --> 03:11:41,720
Speaker 3: in the show notes to vote for the three nominations

3440
03:11:41,879 --> 03:11:45,120
Speaker 3: that we have here at Coolson Media. Migrating to America

3441
03:11:45,160 --> 03:11:51,199
Speaker 3: is nominated for the Limited Series and Specials Podcast Documentary category.

3442
03:11:51,680 --> 03:11:56,400
Speaker 3: Find the Bastards is the podcast features for experimental and Innovation,

3443
03:11:57,160 --> 03:12:00,520
Speaker 3: and it Could Happen Here is also nominated under the

3444
03:12:00,600 --> 03:12:04,880
Speaker 3: Limited Series category under News and Politics. It's kind of

3445
03:12:04,920 --> 03:12:08,359
Speaker 3: confusing to navigate the website because there's just so many categories,

3446
03:12:08,440 --> 03:12:11,200
Speaker 3: but those three links will be there below and we

3447
03:12:11,280 --> 03:12:13,840
Speaker 3: will continue to be talking about what is arguably the

3448
03:12:13,840 --> 03:12:17,440
Speaker 3: most important election of our lifetimes in these next few weeks.

3449
03:12:17,640 --> 03:12:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Pokemon, go to those links and vote for us.

3450
03:12:21,920 --> 03:12:24,240
Speaker 3: Even if you see that you know we might be ahead,

3451
03:12:24,280 --> 03:12:27,160
Speaker 3: stay in line, you cannot leave. We will not let

3452
03:12:27,600 --> 03:12:31,720
Speaker 3: trump Land by ms now come on steal our spot

3453
03:12:31,840 --> 03:12:34,600
Speaker 3: as number one. So stop the steal. Do not let

3454
03:12:34,720 --> 03:12:39,400
Speaker 3: trump Land win. Vote it could happen here April sixteenth,

3455
03:12:39,480 --> 03:12:41,080
Speaker 3: up until the sixteenth mm hmm.

3456
03:12:41,840 --> 03:12:45,199
Speaker 1: Very often vote early, ft off, vote with your spvery

3457
03:12:45,280 --> 03:12:45,960
Speaker 1: man address.

3458
03:12:46,200 --> 03:12:49,000
Speaker 4: Look, vote vote very, really, vote often. The great slogan

3459
03:12:49,120 --> 03:12:51,600
Speaker 4: of my of my home state of Illinois.

3460
03:12:53,000 --> 03:12:57,040
Speaker 3: Everyone take this liberal direct action very seriously. Let's start

3461
03:12:57,040 --> 03:13:00,879
Speaker 3: with some actual news. Getting serious here. Christy Nome's husband

3462
03:13:00,959 --> 03:13:03,520
Speaker 3: was outed as what I'm gonna call a sissy cross

3463
03:13:03,600 --> 03:13:08,680
Speaker 3: dresser with an interest in quote unquote bimbofication. Gnome as

3464
03:13:08,720 --> 03:13:13,480
Speaker 3: governor signed a joint state letter attacking trans writes there's

3465
03:13:13,560 --> 03:13:18,000
Speaker 3: so much gendered angst among these conservatives, projection, etc.

3466
03:13:18,280 --> 03:13:18,680
Speaker 1: Et cetera.

3467
03:13:19,360 --> 03:13:23,280
Speaker 3: Representatives for Nome released a statement after this news dropped,

3468
03:13:23,360 --> 03:13:29,080
Speaker 3: quote Missnome, which is interesting. Quote Missnome is devastated. The

3469
03:13:29,120 --> 03:13:33,400
Speaker 3: family was blindsided by this, and they ask for privacy

3470
03:13:33,400 --> 03:13:34,560
Speaker 3: and prayers at this time.

3471
03:13:35,000 --> 03:13:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah cool.

3472
03:13:35,520 --> 03:13:37,080
Speaker 4: I think I think we need to we need to

3473
03:13:37,160 --> 03:13:39,480
Speaker 4: expand the right to arm bears to the right to

3474
03:13:39,560 --> 03:13:42,640
Speaker 4: arm dogs. This is my final statement on this matter.

3475
03:13:43,680 --> 03:13:47,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a great month for the Nomes after

3476
03:13:47,520 --> 03:13:51,720
Speaker 1: she joined this Shield of America's task force, which so

3477
03:13:51,840 --> 03:13:53,840
Speaker 1: far has existed for less than a month and already

3478
03:13:53,840 --> 03:13:55,280
Speaker 1: bombed the wrong country once.

3479
03:13:56,360 --> 03:13:57,520
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ.

3480
03:13:58,160 --> 03:14:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3481
03:14:00,200 --> 03:14:04,480
Speaker 3: In other important news, four hundred and thirteen thousand, seven

3482
03:14:04,560 --> 03:14:09,400
Speaker 3: hundred and ninety three KitKat bars were stolen in transit

3483
03:14:09,520 --> 03:14:10,879
Speaker 3: from Italy to Poland.

3484
03:14:11,040 --> 03:14:14,040
Speaker 1: Okay, when you get that statistic, is that four hundred

3485
03:14:14,040 --> 03:14:16,680
Speaker 1: and thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety three four finger

3486
03:14:16,760 --> 03:14:21,320
Speaker 1: bars or is that one hundred thousand and you're counting

3487
03:14:21,360 --> 03:14:22,840
Speaker 1: each finger separately.

3488
03:14:23,400 --> 03:14:26,560
Speaker 3: No, it's each packaged bar, including some of the new

3489
03:14:26,640 --> 03:14:29,840
Speaker 3: limited edition Formula one and Chunky bars.

3490
03:14:30,400 --> 03:14:32,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's been a thing in the UK for like

3491
03:14:32,360 --> 03:14:34,640
Speaker 1: twenty years, KitKat.

3492
03:14:34,800 --> 03:14:37,360
Speaker 3: This is a new version. This is a new version,

3493
03:14:37,440 --> 03:14:40,160
Speaker 3: according to a press release from KitKat. Okay, So if

3494
03:14:40,160 --> 03:14:42,120
Speaker 3: you want to argue with KitKat.

3495
03:14:42,040 --> 03:14:45,400
Speaker 1: I think what you're seeing is is called cool Britannia.

3496
03:14:45,480 --> 03:14:48,119
Speaker 1: It's a phenomenon by which British culture is slowly taken

3497
03:14:48,120 --> 03:14:48,760
Speaker 1: over the world.

3498
03:14:50,640 --> 03:14:55,160
Speaker 3: This is twelve tons of KitKat bars that were stolen.

3499
03:14:55,520 --> 03:14:59,280
Speaker 3: Their whereabouts are currently unknown. An on duty Secret Service

3500
03:14:59,320 --> 03:15:02,480
Speaker 3: agent assigned to Biden shot himself while at the Philadelphia

3501
03:15:02,520 --> 03:15:05,400
Speaker 3: airport last week. Look, the lines are bad, but come on,

3502
03:15:05,600 --> 03:15:09,800
Speaker 3: it's not that bad. This was a negligick discharge while

3503
03:15:09,800 --> 03:15:12,120
Speaker 3: the agent was traveling through the airport in an unmarked car.

3504
03:15:12,360 --> 03:15:13,800
Speaker 4: Jill Biden was not in the immediate area at the

3505
03:15:13,840 --> 03:15:14,520
Speaker 4: time of the shooting.

3506
03:15:15,440 --> 03:15:19,720
Speaker 3: Last weekend, Trump signed an executive order to start paying

3507
03:15:19,800 --> 03:15:23,400
Speaker 3: TSA agents. As the Senate and House failed to agree

3508
03:15:23,400 --> 03:15:26,600
Speaker 3: on a DHS funding bill, Congress has adjourned for two

3509
03:15:26,680 --> 03:15:29,800
Speaker 3: weeks as the shutdown continues to set new records for

3510
03:15:29,879 --> 03:15:34,520
Speaker 3: the longest in any federal agency's history. Quick update here,

3511
03:15:35,000 --> 03:15:38,920
Speaker 3: literally as we were recording, House Republicans caved and agreed

3512
03:15:39,000 --> 03:15:43,760
Speaker 3: to the Senate bill to fund DHS except for ICE

3513
03:15:43,879 --> 03:15:47,680
Speaker 3: and CBP, which Republicans will be trying to fund later

3514
03:15:48,120 --> 03:15:52,120
Speaker 3: in a reconciliation bill. But as of Wednesday afternoon, it

3515
03:15:52,160 --> 03:15:55,520
Speaker 3: looks like Congress has finally reached a funding package for

3516
03:15:55,560 --> 03:15:59,840
Speaker 3: the rest of DHS. Politico has reported that acting ICE

3517
03:16:00,000 --> 03:16:04,039
Speaker 3: director Todd Lyons has been hospitalized at least twice for

3518
03:16:04,280 --> 03:16:07,920
Speaker 3: stress related issues. Oh my god, while working to implement

3519
03:16:08,000 --> 03:16:09,880
Speaker 3: Trump's immigration policy.

3520
03:16:11,760 --> 03:16:14,720
Speaker 1: I think it's specifically like because they're shouting him for

3521
03:16:14,760 --> 03:16:16,279
Speaker 1: not hitting the targets.

3522
03:16:15,879 --> 03:16:19,960
Speaker 3: Right, because Stephen Miller has been calling lions yelling at him,

3523
03:16:20,000 --> 03:16:22,439
Speaker 3: quote unquote, yelling about not hitting.

3524
03:16:22,200 --> 03:16:23,279
Speaker 4: Certain immigration targets.

3525
03:16:23,320 --> 03:16:27,240
Speaker 3: Yes, and Trump has yet to endorse, still still yet

3526
03:16:27,240 --> 03:16:29,520
Speaker 3: to endorse anyone in the Texas run off. Between John

3527
03:16:29,560 --> 03:16:33,120
Speaker 3: Cornyn and Ken Paxton. Early reports indicated Trump would back

3528
03:16:33,200 --> 03:16:36,840
Speaker 3: corn In the incumbent, but recently Paxton has been seen

3529
03:16:36,959 --> 03:16:39,959
Speaker 3: meeting with Trump at Mora Lago and what have been

3530
03:16:40,000 --> 03:16:42,199
Speaker 3: reported as quote unquote positive meetings.

3531
03:16:42,800 --> 03:16:46,000
Speaker 1: A Russian oil tanker has dogged in Cuba after the

3532
03:16:46,080 --> 03:16:48,879
Speaker 1: United States allowed it to break the blockade on the island.

3533
03:16:49,120 --> 03:16:51,560
Speaker 1: As we reported last week, it's been a massive shortage

3534
03:16:51,840 --> 03:16:54,760
Speaker 1: of oil in Cuba. This will alleviate that slightly.

3535
03:16:55,000 --> 03:16:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3536
03:16:55,800 --> 03:16:59,600
Speaker 1: A US marine, probably former US marine now if not

3537
03:16:59,720 --> 03:17:02,440
Speaker 1: very shortly to be former US marine, has been charged

3538
03:17:02,520 --> 03:17:06,320
Speaker 1: with federal offensive after allegedly selling millions of rounds of ammunition,

3539
03:17:06,480 --> 03:17:12,000
Speaker 1: including one which isn't normally available for civilian purchase, and

3540
03:17:12,520 --> 03:17:20,039
Speaker 1: javelins in Arizona. Javelin, yeah, yeah, just for those those

3541
03:17:20,080 --> 03:17:21,959
Speaker 1: who are not familiar javelin, I'm not talking about like

3542
03:17:22,000 --> 03:17:25,560
Speaker 1: a spear here, I'm talking about a guided anti tank missile.

3543
03:17:26,000 --> 03:17:26,840
Speaker 7: Oh shit.

3544
03:17:27,879 --> 03:17:31,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. Who was he trying to sell it to?

3545
03:17:32,879 --> 03:17:36,600
Speaker 1: So he selled them to two people who acted as brokers,

3546
03:17:36,959 --> 03:17:40,000
Speaker 1: are two unindicted co conspirators, and then they sold them

3547
03:17:40,040 --> 03:17:42,880
Speaker 1: to other people and an undercover agent was able to

3548
03:17:42,959 --> 03:17:47,119
Speaker 1: purchase some of The ammunition guy's name is Andrew paul

3549
03:17:47,120 --> 03:17:50,280
Speaker 1: A Marius. He was indicted by grand jury this week.

3550
03:17:50,800 --> 03:17:53,840
Speaker 1: He was an ammunition tech at Pendleton, but he brought

3551
03:17:53,879 --> 03:17:58,039
Speaker 1: them to Arizona to sell. And at this time about

3552
03:17:58,040 --> 03:18:03,200
Speaker 1: two million rounds are are not recovered. Great, it's not

3553
03:18:03,280 --> 03:18:06,080
Speaker 1: clear if they are still javelins in circulation. Basically what

3554
03:18:06,520 --> 03:18:08,040
Speaker 1: they don't know where the javelins are.

3555
03:18:08,879 --> 03:18:09,720
Speaker 3: They lost.

3556
03:18:10,400 --> 03:18:13,840
Speaker 1: They recovered a javelin, they don't know if they recovered all.

3557
03:18:13,720 --> 03:18:18,400
Speaker 4: The java So potentially there are just anti tank rockets

3558
03:18:18,440 --> 03:18:18,920
Speaker 4: out there.

3559
03:18:19,360 --> 03:18:22,320
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, they're with the Kitkats.

3560
03:18:22,400 --> 03:18:24,040
Speaker 4: That's it's a joint operation.

3561
03:18:25,160 --> 03:18:28,000
Speaker 1: Maybe that's how they stop that large Kitcat truck they hit,

3562
03:18:28,160 --> 03:18:32,200
Speaker 1: hit the vehicle with javelt in the Yeah, it's one

3563
03:18:32,200 --> 03:18:34,400
Speaker 1: of those growth operations. You know, you get one javelin,

3564
03:18:34,760 --> 03:18:38,360
Speaker 1: you strike a KitKat vehicle, you sell the Kitcats. Now

3565
03:18:38,400 --> 03:18:41,640
Speaker 1: you got two javelins. You hit the mars bar vehicle. Right,

3566
03:18:41,720 --> 03:18:43,080
Speaker 1: this is capitalism in action.

3567
03:18:43,400 --> 03:18:43,640
Speaker 5: Hmm.

3568
03:18:44,600 --> 03:18:47,640
Speaker 1: And then let's let's return to Arizona where normal things happen.

3569
03:18:48,040 --> 03:18:51,760
Speaker 1: Also in Arizona, a grand jury has indicted a man

3570
03:18:52,480 --> 03:18:56,920
Speaker 1: for material support for a foreign terrorist organization after he

3571
03:18:57,000 --> 03:19:00,400
Speaker 1: allegedly sold weapons that he intended to provide to the

3572
03:19:00,520 --> 03:19:06,200
Speaker 1: CJND and CDs Cartel Halis gonoeve Hen Rathion and cart Lissinola,

3573
03:19:06,360 --> 03:19:10,240
Speaker 1: so two of the larger Mexican cartels. Right, these are

3574
03:19:10,280 --> 03:19:12,440
Speaker 1: two groups that were listed as ftos by the Trump

3575
03:19:12,440 --> 03:19:16,440
Speaker 1: administration very early on last year. Lawrence Gray, sixty five

3576
03:19:16,920 --> 03:19:20,480
Speaker 1: was a federal firearms licensee. He owned a shop called

3577
03:19:20,560 --> 03:19:24,080
Speaker 1: Grips by Larry. He sold fancy grips for nineteen elevens.

3578
03:19:24,480 --> 03:19:27,880
Speaker 1: He was already facing a raft of weapons charges after

3579
03:19:28,000 --> 03:19:32,400
Speaker 1: selling a fifty caliber barrett A semi auto belfed and

3580
03:19:32,520 --> 03:19:35,440
Speaker 1: of course a thirty eight Super nineteen eleven pistol to

3581
03:19:35,600 --> 03:19:40,560
Speaker 1: a confidential informant. The thirty eight Super nineteen eleven pistol Well,

3582
03:19:40,560 --> 03:19:43,040
Speaker 1: the reason I say, of course, is because any time

3583
03:19:43,200 --> 03:19:47,400
Speaker 1: people get busted for illegal weapons sales in the Southwest,

3584
03:19:47,920 --> 03:19:49,760
Speaker 1: there always seems to be a thirty eight Super nineteen

3585
03:19:49,760 --> 03:19:52,240
Speaker 1: eleven involved. That they're very much like a status gun

3586
03:19:52,720 --> 03:19:56,160
Speaker 1: in organized crime in Mexico because certain calibers are less

3587
03:19:56,160 --> 03:19:58,800
Speaker 1: available there, thirty eight Super is pretty most like uniquely

3588
03:19:59,160 --> 03:20:02,160
Speaker 1: associated with with that market. Like it always seems that

3589
03:20:02,200 --> 03:20:05,120
Speaker 1: that pops up in busts and he was selling fancy grips,

3590
03:20:05,680 --> 03:20:08,640
Speaker 1: some of which had symbology, which sometimes is used by

3591
03:20:08,760 --> 03:20:12,440
Speaker 1: organized crime groups in Mexico. Anyway, this is the first

3592
03:20:12,640 --> 03:20:16,000
Speaker 1: time I've seen a material support for terrorism charge for

3593
03:20:16,120 --> 03:20:18,800
Speaker 1: one of these cartels who were recently designated as ftos,

3594
03:20:19,200 --> 03:20:22,840
Speaker 1: so that was interesting to me. Finally, Israel has passed

3595
03:20:22,879 --> 03:20:26,080
Speaker 1: a law allowing the death penalty for murder that it

3596
03:20:26,240 --> 03:20:28,840
Speaker 1: uses a phrase quote with the intent of rejecting the

3597
03:20:28,920 --> 03:20:32,960
Speaker 1: existence of the state of Israel. It appears to be

3598
03:20:33,240 --> 03:20:35,119
Speaker 1: a binary system of punishment.

3599
03:20:35,200 --> 03:20:35,320
Speaker 6: Right.

3600
03:20:35,400 --> 03:20:37,440
Speaker 1: It seems that the death penalty is only going to

3601
03:20:37,520 --> 03:20:41,160
Speaker 1: pertain to Palestinian people here. Yeah, it's worth noting that

3602
03:20:41,160 --> 03:20:43,800
Speaker 1: the Palestinians the West Bank tried in military courts and

3603
03:20:44,000 --> 03:20:48,959
Speaker 1: they face a very high conviction rate. Often people will admit,

3604
03:20:49,959 --> 03:20:51,560
Speaker 1: I think we can safety say that they admit under

3605
03:20:51,600 --> 03:20:55,320
Speaker 1: duress in conditions it would not generally be considered applicable

3606
03:20:55,400 --> 03:20:56,080
Speaker 1: with justice.

3607
03:20:56,600 --> 03:20:56,760
Speaker 5: Right.

3608
03:20:57,440 --> 03:21:00,480
Speaker 1: This is I mean, this is the cinepart egal system

3609
03:21:00,520 --> 03:21:03,080
Speaker 1: on top of everything else. Right, Israel previously haven't had

3610
03:21:03,120 --> 03:21:05,880
Speaker 1: the death penalty other than for certain war crimes, which

3611
03:21:05,959 --> 03:21:08,840
Speaker 1: is in and of itself quite amusing. Given the stuff

3612
03:21:08,879 --> 03:21:11,720
Speaker 1: we will talk about later in this very episode.

3613
03:21:12,360 --> 03:21:17,240
Speaker 4: One of the really bleak things about this is, oh, God, Benvier,

3614
03:21:17,720 --> 03:21:21,879
Speaker 4: who's been who's the Minister of National Security, the unbelievably

3615
03:21:22,680 --> 03:21:26,160
Speaker 4: unhinged right winger who's been campaigning for this law, has

3616
03:21:26,320 --> 03:21:29,600
Speaker 4: been going around with a bunch of parliamentary factions wearing

3617
03:21:29,720 --> 03:21:33,040
Speaker 4: yellow noose pins. Yeah, this is their thing and in

3618
03:21:33,120 --> 03:21:36,520
Speaker 4: support of this. So it's really truly cannot be clearer

3619
03:21:36,640 --> 03:21:37,520
Speaker 4: what this is about.

3620
03:21:38,080 --> 03:21:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's there, like their version of the market,

3621
03:21:42,040 --> 03:21:44,160
Speaker 1: I guess, like their branding of their movement is this

3622
03:21:44,800 --> 03:21:45,600
Speaker 1: noos pin.

3623
03:21:46,040 --> 03:21:48,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's it's. It's, it's it's it's specifically, it's

3624
03:21:48,720 --> 03:21:51,400
Speaker 4: the thing that they've replaced the like the ribbon they

3625
03:21:51,440 --> 03:21:53,640
Speaker 4: were wearing for the hostages has now just been replaced

3626
03:21:53,959 --> 03:21:59,920
Speaker 4: with the noose with the nows. Yeah, where Jesus Christ.

3627
03:22:00,959 --> 03:22:02,879
Speaker 4: There's one more little thing I'd like to mention.

3628
03:22:03,440 --> 03:22:06,160
Speaker 3: There was a Daily Mail article that went viral only

3629
03:22:06,240 --> 03:22:11,280
Speaker 3: the best news coming from the Daily Mail that carried

3630
03:22:11,320 --> 03:22:14,160
Speaker 3: the headline quote bullet used to kill Charlie Kirk did

3631
03:22:14,280 --> 03:22:18,480
Speaker 3: not match rifle allegedly used by suspect Tyler Robinson.

3632
03:22:18,760 --> 03:22:20,480
Speaker 4: God, so.

3633
03:22:22,000 --> 03:22:26,640
Speaker 3: This article is reporting on emotion filed by the defense,

3634
03:22:27,080 --> 03:22:30,960
Speaker 3: characterizing findings that are still yet to be fully resolved

3635
03:22:31,200 --> 03:22:36,600
Speaker 3: from the ATF. This does not mean that a different

3636
03:22:36,760 --> 03:22:39,720
Speaker 3: gun was used. What it means is that the ATF

3637
03:22:40,240 --> 03:22:46,000
Speaker 3: was maybe unable to positively match the bullet fragments to

3638
03:22:46,280 --> 03:22:48,360
Speaker 3: the gun, Which does not mean that this was a

3639
03:22:48,680 --> 03:22:52,000
Speaker 3: negative match. This did not come from that gun, but

3640
03:22:52,080 --> 03:22:55,400
Speaker 3: that the fragments could not be positively linked to the

3641
03:22:55,520 --> 03:22:59,320
Speaker 3: gun against his emotion filed by the defense doing what

3642
03:22:59,520 --> 03:23:01,920
Speaker 3: they need to do, which is legally defend this man like.

3643
03:23:01,959 --> 03:23:05,080
Speaker 4: That is that is their job, and that is that

3644
03:23:05,280 --> 03:23:06,080
Speaker 4: is what they are doing.

3645
03:23:06,720 --> 03:23:11,080
Speaker 3: The characterization of this motion by the Daily Mail is

3646
03:23:11,640 --> 03:23:16,200
Speaker 3: designed to drive clickbait, and it's being used to encourage

3647
03:23:16,280 --> 03:23:20,080
Speaker 3: this sort of conspiracy around the charliekirk shooting, that there

3648
03:23:20,200 --> 03:23:24,560
Speaker 3: was this like other currently unknown shooter possibives foreign ties.

3649
03:23:25,080 --> 03:23:27,360
Speaker 3: That's it's a very very popular thing right now on

3650
03:23:27,440 --> 03:23:27,920
Speaker 3: the internet.

3651
03:23:28,160 --> 03:23:30,440
Speaker 1: The Grassy Mall theory of Charlie kirkshit.

3652
03:23:30,560 --> 03:23:34,240
Speaker 3: Yes, that basically like a MASAD agent was hiding somewhere

3653
03:23:34,280 --> 03:23:38,400
Speaker 3: and Tyler Robinson is a patsy. Tyler Robinson obviously innocent

3654
03:23:38,480 --> 03:23:40,840
Speaker 3: until proven guilty. This is going to get settled in court.

3655
03:23:41,240 --> 03:23:44,680
Speaker 3: But the characterization of the early findings by the ATF

3656
03:23:45,080 --> 03:23:47,560
Speaker 3: through the Daily Mail was a bit misleading.

3657
03:23:48,080 --> 03:23:49,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, they daily fail.

3658
03:23:49,920 --> 03:23:51,440
Speaker 4: And also I think it's worth mentioning that like this

3659
03:23:51,640 --> 03:23:56,160
Speaker 4: kind of bullet matching stuff is just as a forensic science,

3660
03:23:56,200 --> 03:23:57,480
Speaker 4: and this is true of a lot of the sort

3661
03:23:57,520 --> 03:24:01,680
Speaker 4: of forensic sciences that are used in used in courts.

3662
03:24:01,800 --> 03:24:04,600
Speaker 4: Like I think Robert has talked on Behind the Bastard's

3663
03:24:04,600 --> 03:24:07,320
Speaker 4: about like a bunch of like the fire pattern stuff.

3664
03:24:07,440 --> 03:24:09,200
Speaker 4: This is kind of in the same category as that,

3665
03:24:09,360 --> 03:24:13,200
Speaker 4: in that it's not very good even to begin with.

3666
03:24:14,000 --> 03:24:17,959
Speaker 4: And so what we have here is a bad mischaracterization

3667
03:24:18,280 --> 03:24:22,960
Speaker 4: of a report of like an incomplete analysis from a

3668
03:24:23,120 --> 03:24:28,160
Speaker 4: not very good piece of forensic technology that's being used

3669
03:24:28,160 --> 03:24:29,720
Speaker 4: to do conspiracy because it makes money.

3670
03:24:30,240 --> 03:24:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, we will certainly follow this case as it actually

3671
03:24:33,160 --> 03:24:34,959
Speaker 3: riches trial, as there will.

3672
03:24:34,879 --> 03:24:37,039
Speaker 4: Be many interesting things that come out through the course

3673
03:24:37,080 --> 03:24:37,560
Speaker 4: of that trial.

3674
03:24:38,320 --> 03:24:42,240
Speaker 1: All right, So let's begin by talking about immigration with this.

3675
03:24:43,040 --> 03:24:45,160
Speaker 1: Brad Land more or less broke this right on his

3676
03:24:45,240 --> 03:24:48,280
Speaker 1: social media accounts. The United States Department of Justice, via

3677
03:24:48,320 --> 03:24:51,320
Speaker 1: the United States Attorneys obviously New York has admitted that

3678
03:24:51,400 --> 03:24:54,920
Speaker 1: it was misguided by ICE attorneys in asserting that they

3679
03:24:55,040 --> 03:24:59,240
Speaker 1: could detain migrants in immigration court. There was a memo

3680
03:24:59,400 --> 03:25:02,880
Speaker 1: right and guidance memo that they relied on. The memo

3681
03:25:03,040 --> 03:25:06,200
Speaker 1: they now say should have applied to other courts, but

3682
03:25:06,480 --> 03:25:10,359
Speaker 1: not to the Executive Office of Immigration Review. The declaration

3683
03:25:10,480 --> 03:25:12,920
Speaker 1: came in New York court suit filed by the ACLU

3684
03:25:13,040 --> 03:25:16,680
Speaker 1: on behalf of advocacy groups which had challenged at courthouse arrests.

3685
03:25:16,920 --> 03:25:18,920
Speaker 1: That's been happening for about a year hours I'm sure

3686
03:25:18,920 --> 03:25:21,560
Speaker 1: most people are aware. In the filing, the USDOJ said

3687
03:25:21,680 --> 03:25:24,440
Speaker 1: quote this error, however, was not caused by a lack

3688
03:25:24,520 --> 03:25:27,960
Speaker 1: of diligence and care by the undersigned attorneys. The undersigned

3689
03:25:28,080 --> 03:25:30,560
Speaker 1: was specifically informed by ICE that the twenty twenty five

3690
03:25:30,640 --> 03:25:34,320
Speaker 1: ICE guidance applied to immigration courthouse arrests. In addition, we

3691
03:25:34,480 --> 03:25:37,960
Speaker 1: discussed and obtained the approval of assigned ICE Council before

3692
03:25:38,040 --> 03:25:41,360
Speaker 1: filing every brief in this case and making any oral

3693
03:25:41,440 --> 03:25:45,000
Speaker 1: representations to the Court and the plaintiffs. We also transmitted

3694
03:25:45,040 --> 03:25:48,119
Speaker 1: copies of the Court's orders, transcript to the September second,

3695
03:25:48,200 --> 03:25:51,840
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five oral argument and plaintiff's filings to ICE

3696
03:25:51,920 --> 03:25:55,240
Speaker 1: Council throughout its litigation. Based on our discussions with ICE today,

3697
03:25:55,440 --> 03:25:58,800
Speaker 1: this regrettable error appears to have occurred because of agency

3698
03:25:58,920 --> 03:26:01,520
Speaker 1: attorney error. Is what you've got. There is a US

3699
03:26:01,560 --> 03:26:05,320
Speaker 1: attorney basically saying, like, not my fault, ICE attorney's fault.

3700
03:26:06,240 --> 03:26:12,640
Speaker 1: Relatively unusual statement. Right, Like, obviously we've seen them attempts

3701
03:26:12,680 --> 03:26:14,960
Speaker 1: to kind of split the executive branch before in these

3702
03:26:15,040 --> 03:26:18,080
Speaker 1: legal filings. Right, we saw, we saw this happen in

3703
03:26:18,160 --> 03:26:21,320
Speaker 1: some of those cases in Minnesota, and then the judge

3704
03:26:21,600 --> 03:26:22,200
Speaker 1: rejected that.

3705
03:26:22,480 --> 03:26:22,600
Speaker 5: Right.

3706
03:26:23,000 --> 03:26:26,000
Speaker 1: The ACLU, in a letter of response, noted the wide

3707
03:26:26,080 --> 03:26:29,200
Speaker 1: reaching consequences here, and it's asked for fourteen days to

3708
03:26:29,280 --> 03:26:31,520
Speaker 1: consider what to do next and file in motion. The

3709
03:26:31,640 --> 03:26:34,600
Speaker 1: memo in question. Right, this ICE guidance memo said the

3710
03:26:34,720 --> 03:26:37,880
Speaker 1: quote civil immigration enforcement actions in or near court houses

3711
03:26:37,959 --> 03:26:40,440
Speaker 1: when they have credible information that leads them to believe

3712
03:26:40,840 --> 03:26:45,120
Speaker 1: the targeted aliens alien brackets s IS or will be

3713
03:26:45,320 --> 03:26:48,920
Speaker 1: present in a specific location. It said those were permissible.

3714
03:26:49,280 --> 03:26:49,400
Speaker 5: Right.

3715
03:26:49,920 --> 03:26:51,720
Speaker 1: DHS, however, has said that there will not be a

3716
03:26:51,800 --> 03:26:55,640
Speaker 1: change in their policy going forward. It's unlikely that they

3717
03:26:55,800 --> 03:26:59,360
Speaker 1: will stop until they are told by a court to

3718
03:26:59,480 --> 03:27:03,480
Speaker 1: do so. Right. So what it seems here is that

3719
03:27:03,680 --> 03:27:09,920
Speaker 1: the Ice attorney has for some reason reconsidered, perhaps because

3720
03:27:10,360 --> 03:27:12,840
Speaker 1: of this ongoing case in New York, what they had

3721
03:27:12,920 --> 03:27:16,320
Speaker 1: said there, and now attempted to walk back something that

3722
03:27:16,360 --> 03:27:19,080
Speaker 1: they have been doing for a year. This will not

3723
03:27:19,280 --> 03:27:21,840
Speaker 1: change the fact that people who have probably been arrested

3724
03:27:21,879 --> 03:27:23,760
Speaker 1: in those courthouses. I have no doubt many of them

3725
03:27:23,800 --> 03:27:27,120
Speaker 1: have already been deported from the United States. Right, many

3726
03:27:27,200 --> 03:27:29,320
Speaker 1: more of them will have suffered material damage if they

3727
03:27:29,360 --> 03:27:31,879
Speaker 1: have not been deported, because they will have been detained

3728
03:27:31,920 --> 03:27:35,760
Speaker 1: in horrific conditions. Right, We've seen more photos today from

3729
03:27:35,800 --> 03:27:38,560
Speaker 1: inside immigration attention. Immigrated detention has always been horrific. It

3730
03:27:38,600 --> 03:27:41,480
Speaker 1: continues to be horrific. We can't make those people whole

3731
03:27:41,520 --> 03:27:44,520
Speaker 1: again in a meaningful way. But what it means going forward,

3732
03:27:44,879 --> 03:27:48,640
Speaker 1: we will keep reporting on another deportation story. I want

3733
03:27:48,680 --> 03:27:53,280
Speaker 1: to talk about a deportation flight on Monday landed in Mianma.

3734
03:27:53,840 --> 03:27:55,920
Speaker 1: The flight also stopped in Thailand, and it is the

3735
03:27:56,080 --> 03:27:59,200
Speaker 1: fifth such deportation flight that I'm aware of. I know

3736
03:27:59,360 --> 03:28:02,920
Speaker 1: of two that were announced. These have not been previously reported,

3737
03:28:03,600 --> 03:28:05,680
Speaker 1: but in March of twenty twenty five, while at the

3738
03:28:05,720 --> 03:28:10,000
Speaker 1: time was a state administration council. The Banmar minitary dictatorship

3739
03:28:10,080 --> 03:28:11,840
Speaker 1: is going through the process of changing its clothes and

3740
03:28:11,879 --> 03:28:14,280
Speaker 1: pretending to be a civilian government right now, that doesn't

3741
03:28:14,320 --> 03:28:16,680
Speaker 1: matter for this story. In the second of March twenty

3742
03:28:16,720 --> 03:28:19,840
Speaker 1: twenty five, the illegitimate government of Myanmar announced that it

3743
03:28:19,920 --> 03:28:24,000
Speaker 1: had received two individual deporties, one on each flight. In

3744
03:28:24,120 --> 03:28:26,920
Speaker 1: April and May of that year, they received more. So

3745
03:28:27,600 --> 03:28:30,520
Speaker 1: we now believe that twenty two people had been deported

3746
03:28:31,000 --> 03:28:33,960
Speaker 1: up to this Monday, and more people, it appears from

3747
03:28:34,000 --> 03:28:37,920
Speaker 1: this flight, have been deported on Monday. The last deportation

3748
03:28:38,040 --> 03:28:41,080
Speaker 1: flight resulted in the deporties being detained and tortured by

3749
03:28:41,240 --> 03:28:45,240
Speaker 1: Miaan Mar's brutal military intelligence. The flight was a bordered

3750
03:28:45,280 --> 03:28:48,680
Speaker 1: jet owned by Journey Aviation and it returned via Sydney

3751
03:28:48,760 --> 03:28:51,200
Speaker 1: to the United States of America. The United States has

3752
03:28:51,200 --> 03:28:53,680
Speaker 1: been trying to counsel the temporary Protective status for Burmese

3753
03:28:53,720 --> 03:28:56,480
Speaker 1: people for some time, but even with a TPS, it's

3754
03:28:56,520 --> 03:28:58,720
Speaker 1: worth noting that people some people have been convicted of

3755
03:28:58,800 --> 03:29:03,199
Speaker 1: crimes and the exceptions can still be deported, The Hunter

3756
03:29:03,480 --> 03:29:05,959
Speaker 1: said in a press release last year. Quote the MEMMA

3757
03:29:06,040 --> 03:29:09,000
Speaker 1: government is cooperating with the relevant US federal entities in

3758
03:29:09,160 --> 03:29:12,959
Speaker 1: verifying and accepting deportees to Mianma. This and some other

3759
03:29:13,040 --> 03:29:15,600
Speaker 1: things a Trump administration have done. They've tried to characterize

3760
03:29:15,640 --> 03:29:17,840
Speaker 1: it a de facto recognition of their right to rule

3761
03:29:17,920 --> 03:29:22,440
Speaker 1: the country. Yeah, very clearly, the reason that they're talking

3762
03:29:22,520 --> 03:29:25,480
Speaker 1: about these deportations is because they're flexing that. Hey, the

3763
03:29:25,560 --> 03:29:30,160
Speaker 1: US government is talking to us downstream effectory ed. I

3764
03:29:30,200 --> 03:29:32,440
Speaker 1: think the world is largely not taking that seriously, but

3765
03:29:32,520 --> 03:29:35,680
Speaker 1: nonetheless they are using that, whether it's for external or

3766
03:29:35,720 --> 03:29:38,840
Speaker 1: internal signaling. The last time has happened according to Miama.

3767
03:29:38,920 --> 03:29:41,440
Speaker 1: Now the deporties were taken straight to the on Tarpi

3768
03:29:41,600 --> 03:29:46,960
Speaker 1: Interrogation Center, and last time it was mostly ethnically Karenne

3769
03:29:47,040 --> 03:29:49,280
Speaker 1: or Chin people. So these are not people. It's a

3770
03:29:49,360 --> 03:29:53,720
Speaker 1: majority ethnicity, right, The majority ethnicity. The ethnicity that comprises

3771
03:29:53,800 --> 03:29:56,040
Speaker 1: most of the armed forces is or certainly most of

3772
03:29:56,080 --> 03:29:58,000
Speaker 1: the high ranks of the armed forces are Bama people.

3773
03:29:58,480 --> 03:30:00,480
Speaker 1: If people want to listen to more about me and

3774
03:30:00,600 --> 03:30:03,000
Speaker 1: my Robert and I have made two very extensive series

3775
03:30:03,040 --> 03:30:07,640
Speaker 1: about that, we will link to. Talking of torture, here

3776
03:30:07,920 --> 03:30:11,240
Speaker 1: are some advertisements which are like torture for your ears.

3777
03:30:23,640 --> 03:30:25,560
Speaker 4: Some people actually like torture.

3778
03:30:26,520 --> 03:30:29,800
Speaker 1: Just to clarify Garrison, I don't think this is the

3779
03:30:29,879 --> 03:30:30,720
Speaker 1: kind that people like.

3780
03:30:31,440 --> 03:30:34,920
Speaker 3: Some people might like those ads. There is a huge

3781
03:30:34,959 --> 03:30:38,960
Speaker 3: industry of watching vintage advertising on YouTube, just like like

3782
03:30:39,160 --> 03:30:40,720
Speaker 3: edits together of like old ads.

3783
03:30:40,920 --> 03:30:42,240
Speaker 4: People love that stuff.

3784
03:30:42,680 --> 03:30:44,840
Speaker 3: Weird, weird nostalgic capitalism.

3785
03:30:44,959 --> 03:30:45,160
Speaker 4: Brain.

3786
03:30:45,520 --> 03:30:46,960
Speaker 1: It is funny to look at the old ads. When

3787
03:30:46,959 --> 03:30:49,480
Speaker 1: I was doing my archival research, I'd find like nineteen

3788
03:30:49,480 --> 03:30:51,440
Speaker 1: twenties and nineteen thirties ads and you're like, oh, what

3789
03:30:51,560 --> 03:30:54,320
Speaker 1: you're selling is drugs, but so.

3790
03:30:54,480 --> 03:30:55,879
Speaker 5: True, so true.

3791
03:30:57,080 --> 03:31:00,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the two kinds of early eineteen hundreds

3792
03:31:00,720 --> 03:31:03,560
Speaker 4: ads are drugs and you should buy this because it

3793
03:31:03,600 --> 03:31:04,640
Speaker 4: has a swastika on it.

3794
03:31:05,520 --> 03:31:08,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's just like some form of racism

3795
03:31:08,400 --> 03:31:08,880
Speaker 1: in marketing.

3796
03:31:09,040 --> 03:31:12,280
Speaker 4: Well, what's favored racist in like nineteen oh five? I

3797
03:31:12,360 --> 03:31:13,280
Speaker 4: mean kind of yeah.

3798
03:31:13,720 --> 03:31:15,760
Speaker 1: And guys, it's a Buddhist simple original. Guys.

3799
03:31:15,800 --> 03:31:16,240
Speaker 4: It's fine.

3800
03:31:17,080 --> 03:31:22,840
Speaker 3: Let's return to our name's sake and discuss two executive orders.

3801
03:31:23,720 --> 03:31:27,320
Speaker 3: As the voting restriction bill dubbed the Save America Act,

3802
03:31:27,760 --> 03:31:30,760
Speaker 3: continues to stall in Congress, Trump has attempted to take

3803
03:31:30,800 --> 03:31:33,480
Speaker 3: matters into his own hands by signing a new executive

3804
03:31:33,600 --> 03:31:39,080
Speaker 3: order quote ensuring Citizenship of Verification and Integrity in federal elections.

3805
03:31:39,959 --> 03:31:44,760
Speaker 3: This order directs DHS, USCIS and the Social Security Administration

3806
03:31:45,160 --> 03:31:50,280
Speaker 3: to create a quote state citizenship list of individuals confirmed

3807
03:31:50,360 --> 03:31:53,800
Speaker 3: to be United States citizens who will be above the

3808
03:31:53,879 --> 03:31:56,480
Speaker 3: age of eighteen at the time of an upcoming federal

3809
03:31:56,520 --> 03:31:59,920
Speaker 3: election and who maintain a residence in the subject state.

3810
03:32:01,640 --> 03:32:03,920
Speaker 3: And this citizenship list will then be used to compare

3811
03:32:04,080 --> 03:32:08,720
Speaker 3: to state voter rules. The list will be derived from

3812
03:32:08,800 --> 03:32:13,520
Speaker 3: quote Federal citizenship and Naturalization records, Social Security Administration records,

3813
03:32:13,920 --> 03:32:19,720
Speaker 3: the DHS Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements data, and other

3814
03:32:20,080 --> 03:32:24,920
Speaker 3: relevant federal databases. Unquote James, do you want to talk

3815
03:32:25,040 --> 03:32:28,120
Speaker 3: about this idea of having like a list of citizens,

3816
03:32:28,520 --> 03:32:30,879
Speaker 3: because this is I think something we've we've mentioned before.

3817
03:32:31,040 --> 03:32:34,160
Speaker 3: How there to this point hasn't really been like a

3818
03:32:34,320 --> 03:32:37,119
Speaker 3: single list of US citizens.

3819
03:32:37,400 --> 03:32:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you can obtain United States citizenships through a

3820
03:32:40,720 --> 03:32:43,840
Speaker 1: number of means, right, Yeah, So these would exist in

3821
03:32:43,920 --> 03:32:48,480
Speaker 1: different agencies, and generally there has been like a hostility,

3822
03:32:48,720 --> 03:32:51,880
Speaker 1: a well founded like hostility to to this kind of

3823
03:32:52,560 --> 03:32:56,039
Speaker 1: overarching government like in out list, right, not least because

3824
03:32:56,560 --> 03:32:59,879
Speaker 1: they will screw it up monumentally.

3825
03:33:00,120 --> 03:33:03,560
Speaker 3: Have devastating consequences that affect not just your ability to vote, but,

3826
03:33:04,120 --> 03:33:07,240
Speaker 3: as we have seen through the past year of ice enforcement,

3827
03:33:07,480 --> 03:33:09,560
Speaker 3: your ability to remain in the United States.

3828
03:33:10,120 --> 03:33:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and just every part of everyday life. Right, Yeah,

3829
03:33:15,240 --> 03:33:16,440
Speaker 1: not at least to add that, like one of the

3830
03:33:17,000 --> 03:33:19,400
Speaker 1: one of the ways you can obtain United States citizenship

3831
03:33:19,480 --> 03:33:22,520
Speaker 1: is through being in a enrolled tribal citizen. I don't

3832
03:33:22,560 --> 03:33:25,840
Speaker 1: know if that consulting tribal citizenship worlds don't.

3833
03:33:26,040 --> 03:33:29,439
Speaker 3: There was nothing about that in the order. I legitimately

3834
03:33:29,520 --> 03:33:31,840
Speaker 3: do not think the people who are pushing this understand

3835
03:33:31,879 --> 03:33:34,480
Speaker 3: that that's a thing. Yeah, they don't think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

3836
03:33:34,600 --> 03:33:36,400
Speaker 3: that's not It's not a group of people who they

3837
03:33:36,440 --> 03:33:36,840
Speaker 3: care about.

3838
03:33:36,879 --> 03:33:37,000
Speaker 5: Right.

3839
03:33:37,480 --> 03:33:42,199
Speaker 3: Earlier today, during the Supreme Court oral arguments on birthright citizenship,

3840
03:33:42,240 --> 03:33:44,400
Speaker 3: which which Trump attended for ninety minutes and then and

3841
03:33:44,480 --> 03:33:46,800
Speaker 3: then left because he wasn't happy with the way it

3842
03:33:47,000 --> 03:33:51,040
Speaker 3: was going, Gorsich asked the Seasons Solicitor General if he

3843
03:33:51,080 --> 03:33:55,760
Speaker 3: thinks Native Americans are birthright citizens under their test, to

3844
03:33:55,840 --> 03:34:00,320
Speaker 3: which these listener general replied, I think so, and then

3845
03:34:00,400 --> 03:34:02,000
Speaker 3: said I'll have to think that.

3846
03:34:02,240 --> 03:34:05,880
Speaker 4: Through Oh my fucking god.

3847
03:34:06,560 --> 03:34:09,480
Speaker 3: He later indicated that they probably would. But this just

3848
03:34:09,520 --> 03:34:11,360
Speaker 3: shows that they aren't really like thinking about all these

3849
03:34:11,400 --> 03:34:13,920
Speaker 3: sorts of things. It's not necessarily like, in that case,

3850
03:34:14,240 --> 03:34:18,600
Speaker 3: trying to be intentionally harmful. It shows just that they're

3851
03:34:18,680 --> 03:34:20,200
Speaker 3: they're not even like thinking of these sorts of things

3852
03:34:20,240 --> 03:34:25,400
Speaker 3: that could have really really devastating effects if implemented. Yeah, yeah,

3853
03:34:25,440 --> 03:34:27,480
Speaker 3: which is like an odd part of the Trump administration

3854
03:34:27,600 --> 03:34:30,440
Speaker 3: has like not everything bad they're doing is necessarily has

3855
03:34:31,040 --> 03:34:37,160
Speaker 3: every single specific implementation pathway in mind. Yeah, but when

3856
03:34:37,240 --> 03:34:40,840
Speaker 3: implemented is like still is still devastating to people's lives.

3857
03:34:41,200 --> 03:34:42,880
Speaker 4: I want to say one thing about the birth lay

3858
03:34:42,920 --> 03:34:47,720
Speaker 4: clazenship thing. Josh Chafitz, who's a professor of law at

3859
03:34:47,800 --> 03:34:51,840
Speaker 4: Georgetown Law Law on Politics, had a very good point

3860
03:34:51,879 --> 03:34:53,680
Speaker 4: about this, which I think is worth making, which is, like,

3861
03:34:53,800 --> 03:34:57,040
Speaker 4: part of what's going on here is that the trumpministration

3862
03:34:57,160 --> 03:34:59,720
Speaker 4: is trying to carve out like a specific thing called

3863
03:34:59,720 --> 03:35:01,760
Speaker 4: birth right citizenship. That's like a thing that you get

3864
03:35:01,800 --> 03:35:04,840
Speaker 4: if you have two immigrant parents. But birtht right citizenship

3865
03:35:04,920 --> 03:35:08,160
Speaker 4: is a citizenship that every single person in the US has. Yeah,

3866
03:35:08,200 --> 03:35:11,400
Speaker 4: it's everyone's there's No, there's no distinction. There's not like

3867
03:35:11,480 --> 03:35:13,840
Speaker 4: a different kind of citizenship you get if you have

3868
03:35:13,959 --> 03:35:17,080
Speaker 4: two immigrant parents versus if you have like parents that

3869
03:35:17,160 --> 03:35:20,280
Speaker 4: were like born in the US. Right, Like it's all

3870
03:35:20,680 --> 03:35:22,840
Speaker 4: one thing. Every single person in the United States has

3871
03:35:22,920 --> 03:35:24,720
Speaker 4: the same kind of citizenship. But the moment you start

3872
03:35:24,800 --> 03:35:28,760
Speaker 4: trying to like hack apart different people citizenship, right, you

3873
03:35:28,840 --> 03:35:31,360
Speaker 4: try to you try to like you know, like like

3874
03:35:31,600 --> 03:35:34,880
Speaker 4: make there be like classes of of how you're a

3875
03:35:34,959 --> 03:35:38,120
Speaker 4: citizen through like this whole birthright citizenship complaint that they're

3876
03:35:38,200 --> 03:35:40,920
Speaker 4: doing right, and to be like, oh, well, just these

3877
03:35:40,959 --> 03:35:44,800
Speaker 4: people who were like born to immigrants are birthright citizens right.

3878
03:35:44,959 --> 03:35:47,000
Speaker 4: That's one of the ways you start getting into these

3879
03:35:47,040 --> 03:35:50,160
Speaker 4: like fucking hideous issues of like okay, are people with

3880
03:35:50,280 --> 03:35:53,640
Speaker 4: tribal membership like you know, residencies like citizens right. It's

3881
03:35:53,680 --> 03:35:55,120
Speaker 4: like all of the stuff is like downstream with this

3882
03:35:55,160 --> 03:35:58,280
Speaker 4: effect to like cut citizenship of parts that needs to

3883
03:35:58,400 --> 03:36:01,720
Speaker 4: just be resisted, like from the fundamental thing of there

3884
03:36:01,800 --> 03:36:04,119
Speaker 4: is not a different category of people called the big

3885
03:36:04,160 --> 03:36:06,360
Speaker 4: birthrates citizens. That's every single person in the US.

3886
03:36:06,480 --> 03:36:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, unless they naturalized, right, Unless you're a naturalized citizen.

3887
03:36:09,160 --> 03:36:11,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what's naturalized? Yeah? Yeah, and even then you're

3888
03:36:11,760 --> 03:36:12,720
Speaker 4: still just a citizen.

3889
03:36:13,280 --> 03:36:14,880
Speaker 1: Then you become a citizen. You just go into the

3890
03:36:14,879 --> 03:36:15,520
Speaker 1: citizen bucket.

3891
03:36:15,520 --> 03:36:17,240
Speaker 4: There's one. Then you are now citizen.

3892
03:36:17,400 --> 03:36:17,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3893
03:36:17,720 --> 03:36:20,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the moment you cut that apart, like it's terrible,

3894
03:36:20,920 --> 03:36:21,680
Speaker 4: terrible things happen.

3895
03:36:22,000 --> 03:36:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty twenty four and made the episode as Robert

3896
03:36:25,360 --> 03:36:28,240
Speaker 1: and Sophie in which we discuss potential at tax on

3897
03:36:28,400 --> 03:36:31,720
Speaker 1: citizenship and potential ways of Trump, and we get into

3898
03:36:31,760 --> 03:36:34,480
Speaker 1: the birth right citizenship and the we get into where

3899
03:36:34,520 --> 03:36:36,720
Speaker 1: it comes from and the fact that this is not

3900
03:36:37,240 --> 03:36:39,480
Speaker 1: an issue about which there has been legal debate. You

3901
03:36:39,560 --> 03:36:42,000
Speaker 1: will now see articles being like the debate about birth

3902
03:36:42,080 --> 03:36:44,320
Speaker 1: right citizenship. That is, people pulling things out of their

3903
03:36:44,400 --> 03:36:47,120
Speaker 1: ass to create two sides on an issue which has

3904
03:36:47,160 --> 03:36:51,920
Speaker 1: been settled for quite literally decades, if not centuries. No, yeah,

3905
03:36:52,120 --> 03:36:53,720
Speaker 1: I will probably try and do something else on birth

3906
03:36:53,800 --> 03:36:56,040
Speaker 1: right citizenship. The reason I haven't done a lot is

3907
03:36:56,080 --> 03:36:58,720
Speaker 1: because there isn't a great deal to say. Yeah, like,

3908
03:36:59,080 --> 03:37:01,360
Speaker 1: birth right citizenship is a thing in the United States.

3909
03:37:01,400 --> 03:37:02,520
Speaker 1: It has been a thing in the United States for

3910
03:37:02,560 --> 03:37:03,240
Speaker 1: a very long time.

3911
03:37:03,360 --> 03:37:05,480
Speaker 4: It's just in the Constitution just says that.

3912
03:37:05,959 --> 03:37:08,240
Speaker 1: It just says that, yeah, there are some people who

3913
03:37:08,240 --> 03:37:12,000
Speaker 1: want to take it away, and it's specifically like we

3914
03:37:12,120 --> 03:37:14,800
Speaker 1: did that after we ended chattel slavery, right like for

3915
03:37:14,920 --> 03:37:17,480
Speaker 1: a very good reason. Yeah, and pushing back on the

3916
03:37:17,560 --> 03:37:20,600
Speaker 1: things we did after we ended chattel slavery is is

3917
03:37:20,720 --> 03:37:23,640
Speaker 1: bad actually, But yeah, I will maybe I'll do another

3918
03:37:23,680 --> 03:37:25,200
Speaker 1: episode because I know we've picked up a lot of

3919
03:37:25,240 --> 03:37:26,280
Speaker 1: new listeners since then.

3920
03:37:27,040 --> 03:37:27,200
Speaker 5: Now.

3921
03:37:27,320 --> 03:37:32,520
Speaker 3: Trump's new executive Order on citizens a verification for elections

3922
03:37:33,160 --> 03:37:36,280
Speaker 3: also states, quote, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish

3923
03:37:36,320 --> 03:37:41,280
Speaker 3: procedures to allow individuals to access their individual records, as

3924
03:37:41,320 --> 03:37:44,959
Speaker 3: well as to update or correct them in advance of elections.

3925
03:37:45,440 --> 03:37:45,880
Speaker 4: Unquote.

3926
03:37:46,360 --> 03:37:48,560
Speaker 3: Unclear how this is going to work, if it even

3927
03:37:48,760 --> 03:37:51,640
Speaker 3: is gonna work. It's still not clear that this executive

3928
03:37:51,720 --> 03:37:54,840
Speaker 3: order will actually be implemented as written because of potential

3929
03:37:54,959 --> 03:37:59,080
Speaker 3: constitutional violations. But you know, this would be in an

3930
03:37:59,120 --> 03:38:03,280
Speaker 3: attempt to add some of the pretty big issues that

3931
03:38:03,560 --> 03:38:05,520
Speaker 3: we're saying about. Someone may be a citizen and not

3932
03:38:05,640 --> 03:38:08,000
Speaker 3: show up as a citizen in these databases for a

3933
03:38:08,120 --> 03:38:10,560
Speaker 3: number of reasons, whether it's because they were naturalized or

3934
03:38:10,840 --> 03:38:14,560
Speaker 3: even in some cases where granted citizenship through one of

3935
03:38:14,720 --> 03:38:20,280
Speaker 3: their parents after being in the sole legal custody of

3936
03:38:20,520 --> 03:38:24,400
Speaker 3: that parent who is a US citizen before this individual

3937
03:38:24,959 --> 03:38:27,520
Speaker 3: is eighteen. This is called the Childhood Citizenship Act of

3938
03:38:27,560 --> 03:38:31,800
Speaker 3: two thousand, which makes a permanent resident become a citizen

3939
03:38:32,080 --> 03:38:36,360
Speaker 3: if they're living with a US citizen parent and things

3940
03:38:36,440 --> 03:38:40,600
Speaker 3: like that. Citizenship kind of rolls over from permanent residency

3941
03:38:40,959 --> 03:38:44,440
Speaker 3: without ever actually having to become naturalized, and getting that

3942
03:38:44,600 --> 03:38:47,720
Speaker 3: added to any kind of database doesn't really happen by itself.

3943
03:38:47,760 --> 03:38:49,720
Speaker 3: You have to then apply for proof of citizenship like

3944
03:38:49,760 --> 03:38:53,760
Speaker 3: a passport or a certificate. So there's all these sorts

3945
03:38:53,760 --> 03:38:56,120
Speaker 3: of weird instances where someone is a citizen, but it

3946
03:38:56,160 --> 03:38:58,400
Speaker 3: may not show up in these sorts of records, including

3947
03:38:58,480 --> 03:38:59,560
Speaker 3: social security records.

3948
03:39:00,560 --> 03:39:03,240
Speaker 1: I should just clarify that not all tribal members are

3949
03:39:03,280 --> 03:39:07,120
Speaker 1: necessarily US citizens, but tribal membership document can sometimes be used,

3950
03:39:07,280 --> 03:39:09,200
Speaker 1: like Garrison was saying, right, as a way to prove

3951
03:39:09,320 --> 03:39:12,680
Speaker 1: United States citizenship. Just more than one hundred years now

3952
03:39:13,000 --> 03:39:15,440
Speaker 1: since the Indian Citizenship Act of nineteen twenty four, right,

3953
03:39:16,040 --> 03:39:19,520
Speaker 1: there may still be people alive today who were made

3954
03:39:19,600 --> 03:39:23,119
Speaker 1: citizens by that act, but would not have any particular

3955
03:39:23,200 --> 03:39:25,039
Speaker 1: documentation that's personal to them.

3956
03:39:24,920 --> 03:39:28,560
Speaker 3: To show that the Executive order also writes that the

3957
03:39:28,600 --> 03:39:32,840
Speaker 3: Attorney General will investigate and prosecute state officials, local officials, individuals,

3958
03:39:33,480 --> 03:39:36,400
Speaker 3: and public or private entities who issue federal ballots to

3959
03:39:36,520 --> 03:39:40,000
Speaker 3: individuals not eligible to vote, or aid an a bet

3960
03:39:40,120 --> 03:39:43,600
Speaker 3: the printing, production, shipment, or distribution of ballots to those

3961
03:39:44,000 --> 03:39:45,119
Speaker 3: ineligible to vote.

3962
03:39:45,640 --> 03:39:47,120
Speaker 1: That's what we call a chilling effect.

3963
03:39:47,800 --> 03:39:51,200
Speaker 3: The second half of the order takes on vote by

3964
03:39:51,240 --> 03:39:54,720
Speaker 3: mail by instructing the Postmaster General to initiate a proposed

3965
03:39:55,000 --> 03:39:59,199
Speaker 3: rule making that requires states to submit lists of voters

3966
03:39:59,320 --> 03:40:02,440
Speaker 3: who will be provided mail in or absencee ballots at

3967
03:40:02,520 --> 03:40:05,640
Speaker 3: least sixty days before an election, and that the USPS

3968
03:40:06,040 --> 03:40:09,440
Speaker 3: shall not transmit any ballots for anyone not on this

3969
03:40:09,720 --> 03:40:13,080
Speaker 3: state citizenship list. Now, all of this is intended to

3970
03:40:13,200 --> 03:40:16,640
Speaker 3: take effect before the midterm elections, with the DHS instructed

3971
03:40:16,680 --> 03:40:20,680
Speaker 3: to establish the infrastructure necessary to compile, maintain, and transmit

3972
03:40:21,080 --> 03:40:24,840
Speaker 3: the state citizenship list within ninety days. Though this executive

3973
03:40:24,920 --> 03:40:27,360
Speaker 3: order may very well be blocked by courts for being

3974
03:40:27,440 --> 03:40:31,280
Speaker 3: an unconstitutional breach of presidential power, the followut of this

3975
03:40:31,320 --> 03:40:34,199
Speaker 3: will be determined in the next few weeks as states

3976
03:40:34,440 --> 03:40:39,360
Speaker 3: and legal entities prepare lawsuits. Let's talk about one other

3977
03:40:39,400 --> 03:40:43,320
Speaker 3: executive order. On Tuesday, a federal judge ruled that a

3978
03:40:43,440 --> 03:40:47,760
Speaker 3: key section of the executive order quote ending taxpayer subsitization

3979
03:40:48,000 --> 03:40:53,279
Speaker 3: of biased media, is unconstitutional. In this order, Trump instructed

3980
03:40:53,280 --> 03:40:56,160
Speaker 3: all federal agencies to cut funding to PBS and NPR.

3981
03:40:56,760 --> 03:40:59,520
Speaker 3: The judge in this case wrote that the President can

3982
03:40:59,640 --> 03:41:03,520
Speaker 3: credits reporting from such outlets and fund programs that promote

3983
03:41:03,560 --> 03:41:07,440
Speaker 3: specific perspectives and impose limits on federal grants, but under

3984
03:41:07,440 --> 03:41:09,880
Speaker 3: the First Amendment, the government cannot use the power of

3985
03:41:09,959 --> 03:41:14,520
Speaker 3: the purse to quote, punish or suppress disfavored expression by others,

3986
03:41:15,240 --> 03:41:18,760
Speaker 3: writing that both the Supreme Court and the DC Circuit

3987
03:41:18,840 --> 03:41:22,360
Speaker 3: Court have repeatedly observed that one quote may not deny

3988
03:41:22,520 --> 03:41:25,519
Speaker 3: a benefit to a person on the basis that infringes

3989
03:41:25,600 --> 03:41:28,400
Speaker 3: his constitutionally protected freedom of speech, even if he has

3990
03:41:28,480 --> 03:41:32,440
Speaker 3: no entitlement to that benefit unquote. The judge rights that

3991
03:41:32,520 --> 03:41:35,680
Speaker 3: the executive order quote does not define or regulate the

3992
03:41:35,840 --> 03:41:39,160
Speaker 3: content of government speech or ensure compliance with the federal program,

3993
03:41:39,320 --> 03:41:42,960
Speaker 3: nor does it set neutral and germane criteria that apply

3994
03:41:43,120 --> 03:41:45,640
Speaker 3: to all applicants for a federal grant program. Instead, it

3995
03:41:45,680 --> 03:41:47,760
Speaker 3: singles out to two speakers and on the basis of

3996
03:41:47,879 --> 03:41:51,960
Speaker 3: their speech bars them from all federally funded programs. It

3997
03:41:52,080 --> 03:41:54,400
Speaker 3: does so, moreover, without regard to whether the federal funds

3998
03:41:54,440 --> 03:41:57,240
Speaker 3: are used to pay for the nationwide interconnection systems, which

3999
03:41:57,280 --> 03:42:00,680
Speaker 3: serve as the technological backbone of public radio and NIME television,

4000
03:42:01,000 --> 03:42:03,680
Speaker 3: to provide safety and security for journalists working in war zones,

4001
03:42:03,800 --> 03:42:06,280
Speaker 3: to support the Emergency Broadcast system, or to produce or

4002
03:42:06,280 --> 03:42:11,160
Speaker 3: distribute music, children's or other educational programming or documentaries unquote. Now,

4003
03:42:11,280 --> 03:42:14,640
Speaker 3: besides setting a good legal precedent, this ruling won't have

4004
03:42:14,920 --> 03:42:18,880
Speaker 3: much in terms of immediate effects because the Corporation for

4005
03:42:19,040 --> 03:42:23,320
Speaker 3: Public Broadcasting was dissolved last month after being defunded by

4006
03:42:23,400 --> 03:42:27,800
Speaker 3: the Republican controlled Congress. That's not being reversed, but this

4007
03:42:28,000 --> 03:42:31,440
Speaker 3: ruling could make it less difficult for PBS and NPR

4008
03:42:31,520 --> 03:42:34,600
Speaker 3: to receive money in the future, either from Congress or

4009
03:42:35,040 --> 03:42:36,400
Speaker 3: some federal agencies.

4010
03:42:37,040 --> 03:42:38,600
Speaker 4: What's that sound, Oh?

4011
03:42:38,720 --> 03:42:42,480
Speaker 1: No, someone desecrating the legacy of the Clash by singing

4012
03:42:42,560 --> 03:42:44,640
Speaker 1: there were a song with different lyrics.

4013
03:42:58,400 --> 03:42:59,320
Speaker 9: Rights.

4014
03:43:01,040 --> 03:43:03,920
Speaker 1: Seriously, though I'm still angry to.

4015
03:43:04,040 --> 03:43:06,800
Speaker 4: Be a fair to buy entrance music, the Clash desecrated

4016
03:43:06,840 --> 03:43:09,400
Speaker 4: themselves by making that song.

4017
03:43:10,280 --> 03:43:13,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the moment they released that song. Yeah, Joe

4018
03:43:13,200 --> 03:43:15,920
Speaker 1: Strammer cried when they played that song during Desert Storm,

4019
03:43:16,120 --> 03:43:19,000
Speaker 1: and if he was alive today he would be crying again.

4020
03:43:19,720 --> 03:43:24,039
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, okay, we actually do have tariff news, which

4021
03:43:24,080 --> 03:43:27,080
Speaker 4: the first tariff news in a while. But when we

4022
03:43:27,160 --> 03:43:30,320
Speaker 4: last spoke about the Supreme Court nullifying the Liberation Day

4023
03:43:30,400 --> 03:43:32,879
Speaker 4: terroriffs and a significant chunk of the tariffs that Trump

4024
03:43:32,959 --> 03:43:36,000
Speaker 4: had been putting into effect, we said that there wasn't

4025
03:43:36,120 --> 03:43:40,560
Speaker 4: a plan really to get tariff free funds out and

4026
03:43:40,600 --> 03:43:43,320
Speaker 4: that it really hadn't been addressed other than by dissenting

4027
03:43:43,520 --> 03:43:47,160
Speaker 4: Supreme Court members. We are sort of starting to see

4028
03:43:47,200 --> 03:43:49,920
Speaker 4: what that looks like after a series of rulings from

4029
03:43:50,040 --> 03:43:56,160
Speaker 4: trade courts. Right now, it is a fiasco. So the

4030
03:43:56,240 --> 03:44:00,199
Speaker 4: government has set up a portal through which you can

4031
03:44:01,040 --> 03:44:04,320
Speaker 4: get relief now after it was sort of after it

4032
03:44:04,400 --> 03:44:06,800
Speaker 4: was sort of forced to by the courts. The implementation

4033
03:44:06,920 --> 03:44:09,600
Speaker 4: of this has been delayed several times because the government

4034
03:44:09,680 --> 03:44:13,119
Speaker 4: didn't have time to actually get it out. A bunch

4035
03:44:13,200 --> 03:44:17,400
Speaker 4: of the portal is not built yet. The government is

4036
03:44:17,480 --> 03:44:19,680
Speaker 4: claiming that it is going to take more time to

4037
03:44:19,879 --> 03:44:22,240
Speaker 4: build a whole bunch of it. Yeah, I bet now

4038
03:44:22,440 --> 03:44:26,400
Speaker 4: This is a catastrophe because they're they're dealing with about

4039
03:44:26,400 --> 03:44:28,320
Speaker 4: one hundred and a bit over one hundred and sixty

4040
03:44:28,360 --> 03:44:31,280
Speaker 4: six billion dollars of tariff money. But they have to

4041
03:44:31,320 --> 03:44:32,440
Speaker 4: pay back plus interest.

4042
03:44:32,879 --> 03:44:34,200
Speaker 1: It's interest, that's funny.

4043
03:44:34,400 --> 03:44:36,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, plus interest. This is the whole thing.

4044
03:44:36,160 --> 03:44:37,760
Speaker 3: Right, they have to do interest on all of this,

4045
03:44:38,000 --> 03:44:38,920
Speaker 3: which is a nightmare.

4046
03:44:39,080 --> 03:44:41,520
Speaker 1: It's the interest of crewing while they bungle setting up

4047
03:44:41,560 --> 03:44:42,800
Speaker 1: this quest based site or whatever.

4048
03:44:43,080 --> 03:44:46,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's still going every second. The interesting thing is

4049
03:44:46,720 --> 03:44:49,480
Speaker 4: ticking on this. So I'm going to quote here from

4050
03:44:49,520 --> 03:44:53,640
Speaker 4: Bloomberg Brandon Lord, executive director of the Trade Program's Directory

4051
03:44:53,640 --> 03:44:55,280
Speaker 4: of the Customers Agency, who are the people who are

4052
03:44:55,280 --> 03:44:57,640
Speaker 4: sort of running all this is also part of why

4053
03:44:57,640 --> 03:45:01,680
Speaker 4: it's such a disaster because there's like seventeen different agencies

4054
03:45:01,760 --> 03:45:05,040
Speaker 4: that are like working on this, right, So some of

4055
03:45:05,080 --> 03:45:08,120
Speaker 4: it's like the Trade Program Director, like at the Customs Agency,

4056
03:45:08,200 --> 03:45:11,520
Speaker 4: but there's also just there's different parts of the Customs

4057
03:45:11,600 --> 03:45:14,840
Speaker 4: and Customs and Border Patrol that's dealing with all of

4058
03:45:14,920 --> 03:45:18,600
Speaker 4: this stuff. Quote wrote that more than twenty six thousand

4059
03:45:18,760 --> 03:45:22,040
Speaker 4: importers who paid one hundred and twenty billion dollars in

4060
03:45:22,080 --> 03:45:25,640
Speaker 4: the challenge terrorists were registered to receive electronic refunds. So far,

4061
03:45:26,800 --> 03:45:29,280
Speaker 4: the government has said that payments could take up to

4062
03:45:29,480 --> 03:45:31,760
Speaker 4: forty five days to review. I would bet that it

4063
03:45:31,840 --> 03:45:35,279
Speaker 4: takes longer than that, because again, the portal hasn't been written,

4064
03:45:35,400 --> 03:45:39,119
Speaker 4: hasn't been like made yet. But partnerspate are still being built.

4065
03:45:39,360 --> 03:45:41,680
Speaker 4: I'm sure those doge guys are on. I'm sure the

4066
03:45:41,920 --> 03:45:45,120
Speaker 4: veriest thing up running in no time. I'm sure they

4067
03:45:45,320 --> 03:45:48,680
Speaker 4: vibe code their way to a perfectly functioning portal. It's

4068
03:45:48,720 --> 03:45:50,840
Speaker 4: gonna be so good. And and again I kind of

4069
03:45:50,879 --> 03:45:53,480
Speaker 4: beside how much fatastrophe this is. The government has said

4070
03:45:53,640 --> 03:45:57,320
Speaker 4: in court that they're portals set up for two thirds

4071
03:45:57,360 --> 03:46:00,240
Speaker 4: of the Mouney, Right, there's still another third that they're like, yeah,

4072
03:46:00,240 --> 03:46:02,520
Speaker 4: I don't know, we're working on it. Who knows when

4073
03:46:02,560 --> 03:46:05,959
Speaker 4: it's gonna happen. So there's just again like a third

4074
03:46:06,000 --> 03:46:08,760
Speaker 4: of the hundred sixty six billion dollars that they don't

4075
03:46:08,760 --> 03:46:13,840
Speaker 4: even plan to refund. Amazing. Now, now this is not

4076
03:46:14,160 --> 03:46:17,680
Speaker 4: even the messiest part of this, right. There's a very

4077
03:46:17,680 --> 03:46:21,199
Speaker 4: good piece in the conversation from Peter R. Krabb, who's

4078
03:46:21,200 --> 03:46:25,199
Speaker 4: the professor of finance and economics at Northwestern Nazarene and University,

4079
03:46:25,360 --> 03:46:28,760
Speaker 4: and also Alison and Graham Larson, who's assistant professor of

4080
03:46:28,800 --> 03:46:32,040
Speaker 4: criminal Justice at the same university, and they point out

4081
03:46:32,320 --> 03:46:35,360
Speaker 4: that it's not actually as simple as okay, you have

4082
03:46:35,520 --> 03:46:38,040
Speaker 4: a you have a item on your balance sheet that

4083
03:46:38,200 --> 03:46:42,240
Speaker 4: is the tariff payments for these companies because for example,

4084
03:46:42,680 --> 03:46:44,600
Speaker 4: you know, okay, so if you were doing like FedEx,

4085
03:46:44,640 --> 03:46:46,959
Speaker 4: for example, they use right, FedEx has like a number

4086
03:46:47,640 --> 03:46:49,400
Speaker 4: right because they just they passed the cost directly on

4087
03:46:49,480 --> 03:46:53,840
Speaker 4: to the consumers. However, Costco didn't do that. Costco shifted

4088
03:46:53,879 --> 03:46:56,960
Speaker 4: the cost around internally. So it's actually very complicated for

4089
03:46:57,000 --> 03:46:59,880
Speaker 4: them to figure out how much money they like be

4090
03:47:00,080 --> 03:47:01,640
Speaker 4: paid on these terrafts because it was spread a bunch

4091
03:47:01,680 --> 03:47:03,400
Speaker 4: of around a whole bunch of stuff. They also like

4092
03:47:03,600 --> 03:47:07,520
Speaker 4: changed the way that they were structuring deliveries and stuff internally,

4093
03:47:08,080 --> 03:47:10,280
Speaker 4: and there were so there are a whole bunch of

4094
03:47:10,440 --> 03:47:14,560
Speaker 4: different lawsuits from these companies to try to get their

4095
03:47:14,600 --> 03:47:16,640
Speaker 4: tariff money back because a lot of these were going

4096
03:47:16,680 --> 03:47:19,880
Speaker 4: on before the actual formal refund process was started. So

4097
03:47:20,040 --> 03:47:22,840
Speaker 4: this is like this is another rolling catastrophe. There's also

4098
03:47:23,000 --> 03:47:26,520
Speaker 4: consumer lawsuits of consumers people who bought shit who want

4099
03:47:26,560 --> 03:47:28,320
Speaker 4: refunds for the teriffs because they were forced to pay

4100
03:47:28,400 --> 03:47:31,879
Speaker 4: the costs of it. Now, because this is the United

4101
03:47:31,920 --> 03:47:35,480
Speaker 4: States of America, there's another layer of this, which is

4102
03:47:35,560 --> 03:47:37,800
Speaker 4: there are a whole bunch of companies where there are

4103
03:47:37,800 --> 03:47:41,320
Speaker 4: there are these investment firms who have come in and said, hey,

4104
03:47:41,800 --> 03:47:44,280
Speaker 4: we will buy the rights to your tariff money for

4105
03:47:44,360 --> 03:47:47,080
Speaker 4: a fraction of the money, and we will guarantee that

4106
03:47:47,160 --> 03:47:49,440
Speaker 4: you get this money now, and then we will pay

4107
03:47:49,480 --> 03:47:51,960
Speaker 4: ourselves with the tariff money that we got back. So

4108
03:47:52,080 --> 03:47:54,640
Speaker 4: now you have investment firms who are buying up pools

4109
03:47:54,840 --> 03:47:59,040
Speaker 4: of this tariff money. And I bet, from spending a

4110
03:47:59,080 --> 03:48:01,160
Speaker 4: bunch of time last week week in the trenches of

4111
03:48:01,200 --> 03:48:03,959
Speaker 4: the two thousand and eight financial collapse, Molly, I bet

4112
03:48:04,240 --> 03:48:07,800
Speaker 4: they're gonna start selling securities fixed off of these pools

4113
03:48:07,840 --> 03:48:10,840
Speaker 4: of tariff money. So this, oh my head ache. This

4114
03:48:11,000 --> 03:48:11,959
Speaker 4: is great.

4115
03:48:12,879 --> 03:48:14,119
Speaker 3: What's what I gotta say?

4116
03:48:14,120 --> 03:48:20,520
Speaker 4: I'm on the tariffy on? Oh, it's so good.

4117
03:48:20,760 --> 03:48:23,720
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just excited to receive my refund from all

4118
03:48:23,760 --> 03:48:26,560
Speaker 3: of the Jay fashion I ordered from Japan, which I'm

4119
03:48:26,600 --> 03:48:29,280
Speaker 3: sure I'll be personally receiving thanks to this.

4120
03:48:29,480 --> 03:48:31,560
Speaker 4: Hey, you know, here's here's the thing. Here's the thing.

4121
03:48:31,840 --> 03:48:36,119
Speaker 4: The one truly beautiful part of the US legal system

4122
03:48:36,879 --> 03:48:40,120
Speaker 4: is that you can sue someone for twenty dollars of damages.

4123
03:48:40,760 --> 03:48:43,720
Speaker 4: That number has never been changed. It is the one

4124
03:48:44,360 --> 03:48:47,880
Speaker 4: truly beautiful part of the United States of America is

4125
03:48:48,000 --> 03:48:51,640
Speaker 4: that you, Garrison David almost certainly could sue the government

4126
03:48:51,680 --> 03:48:55,000
Speaker 4: for that money. That's funny. Yeah, I'm not doing that

4127
03:48:55,080 --> 03:48:56,680
Speaker 4: shit too, which work.

4128
03:48:56,920 --> 03:49:00,640
Speaker 1: No, So the gofundmeling for garrisons comes to you, lawyer.

4129
03:49:00,959 --> 03:49:04,360
Speaker 4: If someone takes a forty dollars bill from you, you

4130
03:49:04,480 --> 03:49:07,960
Speaker 4: can go fucking see them in court. It's beautiful.

4131
03:49:09,560 --> 03:49:14,880
Speaker 1: Just tag Garrison at I write okaybsky dot app yeah,

4132
03:49:15,280 --> 03:49:17,680
Speaker 1: and they just say, Hi, I am a constitutional lawyer.

4133
03:49:17,720 --> 03:49:19,960
Speaker 1: I would like to represent you in court. Read the

4134
03:49:20,040 --> 03:49:21,040
Speaker 1: twenty dollars thank you?

4135
03:49:21,200 --> 03:49:21,320
Speaker 10: Yes.

4136
03:49:21,440 --> 03:49:22,880
Speaker 4: Oh and by the way, by the way, the one

4137
03:49:23,040 --> 03:49:24,960
Speaker 4: last thing I want to notice, on a somewhat serious note,

4138
03:49:25,040 --> 03:49:29,600
Speaker 4: is that this entire catastrophe is just for one specific

4139
03:49:29,720 --> 03:49:32,600
Speaker 4: set of authority that Trump was using to put tariffs

4140
03:49:32,600 --> 03:49:34,240
Speaker 4: into place. There are a whole bunch of other ones

4141
03:49:34,280 --> 03:49:37,160
Speaker 4: that he's been doing now that will also get challenged,

4142
03:49:37,200 --> 03:49:39,480
Speaker 4: that will have their own refund processes where we will

4143
03:49:39,560 --> 03:49:40,240
Speaker 4: go through this.

4144
03:49:40,600 --> 03:49:43,560
Speaker 3: Entire mess again with different things.

4145
03:49:43,800 --> 03:49:47,480
Speaker 4: So it's great, great things happening for international trade as

4146
03:49:47,760 --> 03:49:51,640
Speaker 4: we Yeah, increase the price of fucking oil to like

4147
03:49:51,880 --> 03:49:55,800
Speaker 4: two hundred dollars a barrel, and I don't know, finally

4148
03:49:55,840 --> 03:50:00,760
Speaker 4: get our Calvin and Hobbes eight dollar gasoline. It's great. Well,

4149
03:50:01,000 --> 03:50:02,080
Speaker 4: long live the cycler.

4150
03:50:02,640 --> 03:50:02,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4151
03:50:02,840 --> 03:50:05,760
Speaker 1: The national price of gathleen is now at four bucks,

4152
03:50:05,840 --> 03:50:06,280
Speaker 1: I think.

4153
03:50:06,480 --> 03:50:09,200
Speaker 3: And that's why they call him the affordability President.

4154
03:50:09,400 --> 03:50:09,760
Speaker 4: Uh huh.

4155
03:50:09,960 --> 03:50:12,280
Speaker 1: Yes, anyone checks on the egg prices though, because that's

4156
03:50:13,000 --> 03:50:13,840
Speaker 1: how we do things now.

4157
03:50:14,280 --> 03:50:17,240
Speaker 3: Expensive a shit, expensive shit James, Yeah.

4158
03:50:17,440 --> 03:50:18,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, not cheap.

4159
03:50:19,520 --> 03:50:24,320
Speaker 1: Let me divert new listeners to are a famous Chickens

4160
03:50:24,440 --> 03:50:29,080
Speaker 1: episode circa twenty twenty three and which we can learn

4161
03:50:29,120 --> 03:50:44,760
Speaker 1: more about keeping poultry at home. Talking of catastrophes, I

4162
03:50:44,800 --> 03:50:48,400
Speaker 1: would like to continue to talk about the war on Iran.

4163
03:50:49,160 --> 03:50:52,400
Speaker 1: The President truthed this week that he was prepared to

4164
03:50:52,560 --> 03:50:56,440
Speaker 1: attack desalination and power plants in Iran if the state

4165
03:50:56,520 --> 03:51:00,800
Speaker 1: did not comply with his demands. Jesus in his truth,

4166
03:51:00,920 --> 03:51:04,600
Speaker 1: he said, I will skip remarking on capitalization, as is

4167
03:51:04,640 --> 03:51:06,280
Speaker 1: our house style, because as well as these would take

4168
03:51:06,320 --> 03:51:08,560
Speaker 1: half an hour. The United States of America is in

4169
03:51:08,720 --> 03:51:11,760
Speaker 1: serious discussions with a new and more reasonable regime to

4170
03:51:11,960 --> 03:51:15,320
Speaker 1: end our military operations in Iran. Great progress has been made,

4171
03:51:15,560 --> 03:51:18,480
Speaker 1: but if for any reason a deal that's not shortly reached,

4172
03:51:18,720 --> 03:51:21,080
Speaker 1: which it probably will be, and if the Hormu Strait

4173
03:51:21,200 --> 03:51:24,160
Speaker 1: is not immediately open for business, we will conclude a

4174
03:51:24,240 --> 03:51:27,200
Speaker 1: lovely stay in Iran by blowing up and completely obliterating

4175
03:51:27,320 --> 03:51:31,800
Speaker 1: all of their electric generating plants, oil wells, and Khag Island.

4176
03:51:32,360 --> 03:51:38,640
Speaker 1: Probably all this is sick desalinization plants, which we have

4177
03:51:38,800 --> 03:51:42,000
Speaker 1: purposely not yet touched. This will be a retribution for

4178
03:51:42,080 --> 03:51:44,560
Speaker 1: our many soldiers and for others that Iran has butchered

4179
03:51:44,600 --> 03:51:47,720
Speaker 1: and killed over the old regime's forty seven year reign

4180
03:51:47,800 --> 03:51:50,840
Speaker 1: of terror. Thank you for your attention to this matter,

4181
03:51:51,080 --> 03:51:55,480
Speaker 1: President Donald J. Trump, as a reporter NBC pointed out,

4182
03:51:55,560 --> 03:51:58,320
Speaker 1: targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime.

4183
03:51:58,360 --> 03:52:02,680
Speaker 9: Under international law, Striking civilian infrastructure like that is generally prohibited.

4184
03:52:03,160 --> 03:52:06,040
Speaker 9: Why is the President threatening what would amount to potentially

4185
03:52:06,120 --> 03:52:08,640
Speaker 9: a war crime with the US military. How do you

4186
03:52:08,680 --> 03:52:11,480
Speaker 9: square that with the administration repeatedly saying that the US.

4187
03:52:11,320 --> 03:52:14,440
Speaker 10: Does not target civilian look the President has made it

4188
03:52:14,560 --> 03:52:17,240
Speaker 10: quite clear to the Iranian regime at this moment in time,

4189
03:52:17,360 --> 03:52:20,280
Speaker 10: as evidenced by the statement that you just read, that

4190
03:52:20,440 --> 03:52:23,040
Speaker 10: their best move is to make a deal or else.

4191
03:52:23,080 --> 03:52:27,640
Speaker 10: The United States Armed Forces has capabilities beyond their wildest imagination,

4192
03:52:27,800 --> 03:52:31,000
Speaker 10: and the President is not afraid to use them. That's

4193
03:52:31,040 --> 03:52:33,560
Speaker 10: not what I said, Garrett, And you're saying the word

4194
03:52:33,640 --> 03:52:36,720
Speaker 10: potential for a reason, because I'm sure sure some experts

4195
03:52:36,840 --> 03:52:39,240
Speaker 10: are telling you that in your ear to try to

4196
03:52:39,320 --> 03:52:41,960
Speaker 10: ask me that question. Of course, this administration in the

4197
03:52:42,040 --> 03:52:45,320
Speaker 10: United States Armed Forces will always act within the confines

4198
03:52:45,360 --> 03:52:48,800
Speaker 10: of the law. But with respect to achieving the full

4199
03:52:48,840 --> 03:52:51,320
Speaker 10: objectives of Operation Epic Fury, President Trump is going to

4200
03:52:51,400 --> 03:52:55,160
Speaker 10: move forward unabated, and he expects the Iranian regime to

4201
03:52:55,200 --> 03:52:56,360
Speaker 10: make a deal with the administration.

4202
03:52:57,280 --> 03:52:59,880
Speaker 1: It should be noted Iran has said that it is

4203
03:53:00,200 --> 03:53:03,880
Speaker 1: not negotiating directly with the United States then negotiating through

4204
03:53:03,880 --> 03:53:08,480
Speaker 1: a third party. What is largely missing from this discussion

4205
03:53:09,440 --> 03:53:13,120
Speaker 1: is that Israel has been doing this stuff already. Obviously,

4206
03:53:13,440 --> 03:53:15,880
Speaker 1: Israel has not limited its war crimes to its bombing

4207
03:53:15,920 --> 03:53:18,160
Speaker 1: of Iran. Right it has been on a war crimes

4208
03:53:18,160 --> 03:53:20,560
Speaker 1: freeze for several years, and that is an extension of

4209
03:53:20,640 --> 03:53:22,480
Speaker 1: a war crime speed that he has been arguably on

4210
03:53:22,600 --> 03:53:26,520
Speaker 1: for several decades. Israel attack to desalinate some plant on

4211
03:53:26,600 --> 03:53:30,640
Speaker 1: the seventh of March, very briefly, the Israeli press attempted

4212
03:53:30,640 --> 03:53:33,680
Speaker 1: to report that the UAE had done this. The UAE

4213
03:53:33,960 --> 03:53:36,880
Speaker 1: had to issue a statement essentially saying like, we would

4214
03:53:36,920 --> 03:53:39,600
Speaker 1: never attack the people of Iran, while we disagree with

4215
03:53:40,120 --> 03:53:42,880
Speaker 1: the state of Iran, while that you've been like outwhoked

4216
03:53:42,920 --> 03:53:46,320
Speaker 1: by the UAE, but them saying like it's no way

4217
03:53:46,360 --> 03:53:48,800
Speaker 1: to attack the Iranian regime to force Iranian people to

4218
03:53:48,880 --> 03:53:51,320
Speaker 1: die for lack of water is a perfectly reasonable and

4219
03:53:51,560 --> 03:53:52,160
Speaker 1: just statement.

4220
03:53:52,320 --> 03:53:52,480
Speaker 5: Right.

4221
03:53:53,040 --> 03:53:56,120
Speaker 1: Officially, both the IDF and the US government have denied

4222
03:53:56,160 --> 03:54:00,000
Speaker 1: this strike, but the combination of like several factors include

4223
03:54:00,040 --> 03:54:03,600
Speaker 1: duding this incredibly rapid disinformation campaign strongly point to this

4224
03:54:03,680 --> 03:54:05,040
Speaker 1: being an id F joint Yeah.

4225
03:54:05,080 --> 03:54:08,480
Speaker 4: Also who else, like what what are you too? Bobbed it?

4226
03:54:08,720 --> 03:54:11,960
Speaker 1: Like what are you what are you going to do career?

4227
03:54:13,000 --> 03:54:13,240
Speaker 5: Lately?

4228
03:54:13,720 --> 03:54:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been there have been attempt to several

4229
03:54:17,880 --> 03:54:20,360
Speaker 1: attempts over the last month to to to suggest that

4230
03:54:20,440 --> 03:54:22,680
Speaker 1: like other golf states have done things when when they're

4231
03:54:22,680 --> 03:54:27,680
Speaker 1: politically inconvenient. This, as far as I'm concerned, very very

4232
03:54:27,920 --> 03:54:31,080
Speaker 1: likely to be an IDF situation. This point is something

4233
03:54:31,120 --> 03:54:33,400
Speaker 1: that we've talked about for more than a month now,

4234
03:54:33,920 --> 03:54:35,320
Speaker 1: but I just want to make it really clear that

4235
03:54:35,400 --> 03:54:39,600
Speaker 1: the US and Israel very clearly have very different goals

4236
03:54:40,000 --> 03:54:43,560
Speaker 1: in it run. I think that sometimes we see this

4237
03:54:45,240 --> 03:54:47,400
Speaker 1: this very puerile analysis has taken hold on the left

4238
03:54:47,440 --> 03:54:49,600
Speaker 1: in the United States right, which suggests that Israel is

4239
03:54:49,720 --> 03:54:52,120
Speaker 1: entirely driving the bus here, that they cajoled the United

4240
03:54:52,160 --> 03:54:54,320
Speaker 1: States into doing this war, and they're telling the United

4241
03:54:54,360 --> 03:54:57,000
Speaker 1: States what to do, when and where and how. I

4242
03:54:57,080 --> 03:55:00,160
Speaker 1: think that's a very juvenile way of understanding this. In

4243
03:55:00,200 --> 03:55:03,160
Speaker 1: the United States have wanted war with Iran for decades.

4244
03:55:03,800 --> 03:55:06,680
Speaker 1: Trump talked about it in his first term. Trump also

4245
03:55:06,840 --> 03:55:11,080
Speaker 1: still clearly Harbor's resentment for Obama quote unquote getting bin

4246
03:55:11,200 --> 03:55:16,200
Speaker 1: Laden and wants a sort of similar commander in chief win.

4247
03:55:17,120 --> 03:55:21,920
Speaker 1: His confidence was significantly bolstered after the Venezuela operation, and

4248
03:55:22,040 --> 03:55:24,760
Speaker 1: he thought he could affect a regime change here quickly

4249
03:55:25,120 --> 03:55:27,440
Speaker 1: and then extract tribute from a client's day, as he

4250
03:55:27,480 --> 03:55:30,720
Speaker 1: appears to be doing from Delca and Venezuela now. This

4251
03:55:30,960 --> 03:55:34,840
Speaker 1: has not worked so far in Iran. Israel, on the

4252
03:55:34,960 --> 03:55:38,160
Speaker 1: other hand, has continued with his own campaign, which is

4253
03:55:38,200 --> 03:55:40,600
Speaker 1: an extension of what we have seen it doing in Gaza,

4254
03:55:40,680 --> 03:55:43,000
Speaker 1: what we are seeing it doing in Lebanon, which seems

4255
03:55:43,040 --> 03:55:47,120
Speaker 1: to be to cripple any state in the region, any

4256
03:55:47,880 --> 03:55:50,360
Speaker 1: population in the region that opposed it. Right, but it

4257
03:55:50,480 --> 03:55:52,800
Speaker 1: genuinely seems that its goal here is to leave itself

4258
03:55:52,880 --> 03:55:56,720
Speaker 1: sort of the only functioning quality in the region and

4259
03:55:56,840 --> 03:56:01,160
Speaker 1: to destroy any other armed actor with very little concern

4260
03:56:01,520 --> 03:56:04,600
Speaker 1: for the loss of innocent life. The United States in

4261
03:56:04,640 --> 03:56:08,960
Speaker 1: the last week has lost significant aviation resources after Iranian

4262
03:56:09,040 --> 03:56:12,520
Speaker 1: ballistic missiles struck and air based into Saudi Arabia. They

4263
03:56:12,640 --> 03:56:16,440
Speaker 1: damaged at least one E three A wax aircraft and

4264
03:56:16,560 --> 03:56:18,880
Speaker 1: then a handful of KT one thirty five air to

4265
03:56:18,960 --> 03:56:22,840
Speaker 1: wear refueling aircraft. This is not in a significant loss.

4266
03:56:22,840 --> 03:56:25,480
Speaker 1: This is half a billion dollars of aviation wiped out

4267
03:56:25,960 --> 03:56:28,400
Speaker 1: in a single strike. And these are not aeroplanes that

4268
03:56:28,480 --> 03:56:30,480
Speaker 1: the United States has a large number of.

4269
03:56:30,720 --> 03:56:30,840
Speaker 5: Right.

4270
03:56:31,280 --> 03:56:35,320
Speaker 1: Iran also hit aquated tanker this week, A drone seed

4271
03:56:35,360 --> 03:56:36,840
Speaker 1: to have hit it off the coast of Dubai. It

4272
03:56:36,920 --> 03:56:39,840
Speaker 1: caught fire. There was potential for an oil spill, but

4273
03:56:39,920 --> 03:56:41,560
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing at the time where accordingly this is

4274
03:56:41,760 --> 03:56:45,840
Speaker 1: has not been once so far, Yeah, exactly. I mean

4275
03:56:46,000 --> 03:56:50,120
Speaker 1: every war is an ecological disaster, but this one could

4276
03:56:50,200 --> 03:56:52,760
Speaker 1: re a particularly remarkable one. And then I just do

4277
03:56:52,840 --> 03:56:55,960
Speaker 1: briefly want to mention the economic impacts. Of course, it

4278
03:56:56,000 --> 03:56:57,560
Speaker 1: will be very hard to be living on this planet

4279
03:56:57,640 --> 03:57:01,120
Speaker 1: right now and not noticee economic impacts. But the Republic

4280
03:57:01,160 --> 03:57:03,760
Speaker 1: of the Marshall Islands has declared a state of emergency

4281
03:57:03,800 --> 03:57:07,480
Speaker 1: and begun fuel rationing that they're strictly limiting the use

4282
03:57:07,520 --> 03:57:10,880
Speaker 1: of government vehicles. I have reached out to the government

4283
03:57:10,920 --> 03:57:15,000
Speaker 1: to presidency. You can hear my reporting from Republic of

4284
03:57:15,000 --> 03:57:17,040
Speaker 1: the Martial Islands, including the interview with the then president

4285
03:57:17,080 --> 03:57:20,280
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. That's another series that we've made

4286
03:57:20,320 --> 03:57:22,520
Speaker 1: here on it could happen here that I'm going to

4287
03:57:22,560 --> 03:57:24,120
Speaker 1: see if we can get someone from the RMI on

4288
03:57:24,200 --> 03:57:27,360
Speaker 1: for an interview, because I think some of these small

4289
03:57:27,400 --> 03:57:29,520
Speaker 1: island nations right where everything has to be shipped in

4290
03:57:30,080 --> 03:57:35,040
Speaker 1: the cost of fuel can make things extremely difficult for

4291
03:57:35,160 --> 03:57:37,040
Speaker 1: people just trying to eke out an existence there in

4292
03:57:37,080 --> 03:57:40,320
Speaker 1: a place that the United States nuked despite never raising

4293
03:57:40,400 --> 03:57:42,280
Speaker 1: the word and anger against us.

4294
03:57:43,200 --> 03:57:46,320
Speaker 3: Finally, our last few stories this episode starting with a

4295
03:57:46,520 --> 03:57:52,040
Speaker 3: Tale of Two Bombing Plots American classic Truly the American

4296
03:57:52,080 --> 03:57:54,880
Speaker 3: tradition that just won't die. My brother and sister have

4297
03:57:54,960 --> 03:57:59,040
Speaker 3: been indicted after allegedly planting and improvised exposit device outside

4298
03:57:59,080 --> 03:58:04,520
Speaker 3: of McDill Air Force Space in Tampa, Florida, on March tenth,

4299
03:58:05,000 --> 03:58:09,360
Speaker 3: before fleeing to China two days later. After planting the bomb,

4300
03:58:09,600 --> 03:58:12,480
Speaker 3: the brother allegedly alerted officials by calling nine to one

4301
03:58:12,480 --> 03:58:16,200
Speaker 3: to one, but the explosive went undiscovered for nearly a week.

4302
03:58:16,600 --> 03:58:17,520
Speaker 4: It did not detonate.

4303
03:58:18,040 --> 03:58:18,200
Speaker 5: Huh.

4304
03:58:18,800 --> 03:58:21,840
Speaker 3: The sister was arrested after returning from China, and she's

4305
03:58:21,920 --> 03:58:25,160
Speaker 3: charged with evidence tampering and being an accessory after the fact.

4306
03:58:25,760 --> 03:58:28,400
Speaker 3: Prosecutors alleged that she helped clean and sell the car

4307
03:58:28,880 --> 03:58:33,560
Speaker 3: used to plant the bomb and asked chat GPT how

4308
03:58:33,640 --> 03:58:37,480
Speaker 3: to obtain a Chinese visa and transfer properties in her

4309
03:58:37,520 --> 03:58:40,480
Speaker 3: brother's name, and searched for Chinese schools for her brother

4310
03:58:40,560 --> 03:58:44,960
Speaker 3: to attend. Her brother is still suspected to be in China.

4311
03:58:45,520 --> 03:58:48,960
Speaker 4: Look, I am stunned that these people didn't accidentally blow

4312
03:58:49,040 --> 03:58:49,600
Speaker 4: themselves up.

4313
03:58:49,960 --> 03:58:52,240
Speaker 3: Well, The reason why is because it's actually very hard

4314
03:58:52,280 --> 03:58:52,880
Speaker 3: to build a bob.

4315
03:58:53,120 --> 03:58:55,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, I guess, I guess we'll because when

4316
03:58:55,000 --> 03:58:57,080
Speaker 4: you're trying to build a bomb, there's three outcomes, right,

4317
03:58:57,360 --> 03:59:01,480
Speaker 4: there's one you failed to build a bomb. You either

4318
03:59:01,600 --> 03:59:03,160
Speaker 4: succeed to build a bomb, or fail to build a

4319
03:59:03,160 --> 03:59:05,440
Speaker 4: bomb and it blows you up, or you successully build

4320
03:59:05,440 --> 03:59:08,800
Speaker 4: a bomb and cecily building a bomb is like that hard,

4321
03:59:09,400 --> 03:59:13,960
Speaker 4: and it's you're pretty likely to blow yourself up or

4322
03:59:14,680 --> 03:59:17,520
Speaker 4: fail to build a bomb. So I guess, I guess

4323
03:59:17,560 --> 03:59:19,680
Speaker 4: I never got to the threshold a bomb building where

4324
03:59:19,680 --> 03:59:22,200
Speaker 4: it would blow themselves up because they just didn't produce

4325
03:59:22,280 --> 03:59:23,840
Speaker 4: it viable device.

4326
03:59:24,520 --> 03:59:30,320
Speaker 3: In this next bombing plot, the suspect did actually construct

4327
03:59:30,400 --> 03:59:32,640
Speaker 3: what could be considered a bomb. Oh good Lord, that

4328
03:59:33,200 --> 03:59:35,840
Speaker 3: could have been used in what's being reported on as

4329
03:59:35,960 --> 03:59:40,800
Speaker 3: an assassination plot. Last Thursday, a New Jersey man, Alexander

4330
03:59:41,080 --> 03:59:44,320
Speaker 3: Heifler was arrested as a part of a plot to

4331
03:59:44,480 --> 03:59:49,440
Speaker 3: firebomb the home of pro Palestinian activists Ner Dean Kiswani

4332
03:59:50,200 --> 03:59:53,880
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. Alexander Hiffler is a member of the JDL

4333
03:59:54,360 --> 03:59:58,960
Speaker 3: six one three Brotherhood, a new offshoot of the terrorist group,

4334
03:59:59,120 --> 04:00:03,160
Speaker 3: the Jewish Fence League, which has been active at Palestine

4335
04:00:03,200 --> 04:00:06,840
Speaker 3: protests in New York the past few years. This is

4336
04:00:06,960 --> 04:00:11,040
Speaker 3: a Zionist extremist group that has been designated in the

4337
04:00:11,080 --> 04:00:15,960
Speaker 3: past by the FBI as extremist group. According to the

4338
04:00:16,040 --> 04:00:19,480
Speaker 3: criminal complaint, Heifler was in a group video call with

4339
04:00:19,600 --> 04:00:23,040
Speaker 3: an undercover officer last February in which he asked about

4340
04:00:23,040 --> 04:00:26,400
Speaker 3: receiving training quote for how to use the instruments that

4341
04:00:26,520 --> 04:00:30,400
Speaker 3: were not knives, guns, or crossbows for quote unquote self defense.

4342
04:00:30,960 --> 04:00:36,560
Speaker 3: That's an odd, odd phrasing in the complaint, cross not okay,

4343
04:00:36,960 --> 04:00:41,520
Speaker 3: things that aren't those things okay, great things happening here,

4344
04:00:41,920 --> 04:00:44,800
Speaker 3: and Heifler later specifically mentioned that he was looking for

4345
04:00:44,960 --> 04:00:47,040
Speaker 3: somewhere to throw molotovs.

4346
04:00:47,400 --> 04:00:47,800
Speaker 4: Oh boy.

4347
04:00:48,360 --> 04:00:53,520
Speaker 3: The undercover sent Heifler a message via an encrypted messaging application, stating, Hey,

4348
04:00:53,920 --> 04:00:57,920
Speaker 3: let's talk about that in person. Don't say that on here.

4349
04:00:58,400 --> 04:01:02,960
Speaker 3: Heifler responded, don't use the M word. Copy that the

4350
04:01:03,120 --> 04:01:08,600
Speaker 3: M word, apparently being molotov. Incredible operational security happening year.

4351
04:01:09,120 --> 04:01:11,360
Speaker 3: The next day, the two met in person. Heifler told

4352
04:01:11,400 --> 04:01:13,760
Speaker 3: the undercover that molotovs were easy to make and they

4353
04:01:13,800 --> 04:01:17,440
Speaker 3: discussed targeting the home of pro Palestinian activist Nerden Kiswani.

4354
04:01:18,160 --> 04:01:21,840
Speaker 3: Heifler talked about needing to obtain fake license plates and

4355
04:01:22,160 --> 04:01:24,960
Speaker 3: told the undercover that he had an escape plan to

4356
04:01:25,080 --> 04:01:28,840
Speaker 3: flee the country. At the end of April, Mayor Zoramumdani

4357
04:01:29,000 --> 04:01:34,200
Speaker 3: clarified online that Heifler intended to flee to Israel. Great

4358
04:01:34,560 --> 04:01:37,320
Speaker 3: to quote Heifler in their criminal complaint quote, I'm thinking, like,

4359
04:01:37,560 --> 04:01:41,200
Speaker 3: if we wanted to go after Kiswani, we have Kiswani's address,

4360
04:01:41,640 --> 04:01:44,120
Speaker 3: so it's like that that would be easier if you'd

4361
04:01:44,160 --> 04:01:47,400
Speaker 3: be more comfortable with that. Drive down to Kiswani's home,

4362
04:01:47,680 --> 04:01:51,000
Speaker 3: middle of April, no IDs, no phones, in and out

4363
04:01:51,320 --> 04:01:55,240
Speaker 3: unquote Great. A few weeks later they met up again

4364
04:01:55,480 --> 04:01:59,680
Speaker 3: and drove to Kiswani's home to conduct surveillance. Hifler told

4365
04:01:59,680 --> 04:02:01,520
Speaker 3: the under cover that he had done tests with a

4366
04:02:01,600 --> 04:02:04,760
Speaker 3: molotov and a DNA kit from a pharmacy, and because

4367
04:02:04,800 --> 04:02:07,120
Speaker 3: his DNA showed up on the test, they should wear

4368
04:02:07,240 --> 04:02:10,600
Speaker 3: gloves during the attack. A real genius at work.

4369
04:02:11,160 --> 04:02:12,760
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

4370
04:02:13,200 --> 04:02:16,080
Speaker 3: The plan was to build twelve molotovs and throw several

4371
04:02:16,160 --> 04:02:19,760
Speaker 3: at the home and two at cars parked outside. Heifler

4372
04:02:19,880 --> 04:02:22,680
Speaker 3: mentioned having an address they could hide out before he

4373
04:02:22,760 --> 04:02:27,200
Speaker 3: would then flee to Israel. On March twenty sixth, they

4374
04:02:27,280 --> 04:02:30,320
Speaker 3: met at Heifler's home to start making the molotovs, and

4375
04:02:30,480 --> 04:02:34,520
Speaker 3: after the assembly, law enforcement searched the home and Heifler

4376
04:02:34,640 --> 04:02:37,280
Speaker 3: was arrested and has since been charged with unlawful possession

4377
04:02:37,360 --> 04:02:41,640
Speaker 3: and making of a destructive device. Great stuff. I very

4378
04:02:41,720 --> 04:02:43,000
Speaker 3: glad they didn't pull this off.

4379
04:02:43,400 --> 04:02:46,640
Speaker 4: And also, Jesus Christ, you know something like this.

4380
04:02:46,760 --> 04:02:49,480
Speaker 3: It is interesting that this was a joint with the FBI,

4381
04:02:50,040 --> 04:02:53,120
Speaker 3: that the current FBI was was doing like a sort

4382
04:02:53,160 --> 04:02:57,320
Speaker 3: of sting operation like this with the Jewish Defense League.

4383
04:02:57,600 --> 04:02:58,240
Speaker 4: Is interesting.

4384
04:02:58,560 --> 04:03:00,760
Speaker 3: That is that is something that I think people may

4385
04:03:00,840 --> 04:03:06,160
Speaker 3: not have expected. The undercover was part of the furthering

4386
04:03:06,240 --> 04:03:07,760
Speaker 3: of this plan in some ways.

4387
04:03:07,880 --> 04:03:08,440
Speaker 5: I don't know.

4388
04:03:08,880 --> 04:03:11,080
Speaker 3: We don't know if this guy would have done this

4389
04:03:11,240 --> 04:03:15,600
Speaker 3: exact attack if not planned with the undercover. But this

4390
04:03:15,720 --> 04:03:19,520
Speaker 3: guy was very very clearly willing and able to hurt

4391
04:03:19,640 --> 04:03:23,840
Speaker 3: and possibly kill this pro Palestinian activist, a very prominent

4392
04:03:23,920 --> 04:03:27,920
Speaker 3: one at that. Lastly, let's talk about Pink News and

4393
04:03:28,200 --> 04:03:30,160
Speaker 3: the Idaho bathroom bill.

4394
04:03:30,560 --> 04:03:31,960
Speaker 4: Oh my fucking god, yeah.

4395
04:03:32,080 --> 04:03:34,520
Speaker 3: So. Earlier this week, I released an episode and an

4396
04:03:34,640 --> 04:03:38,760
Speaker 3: accompanying article online on what I've dubbed the trans panic

4397
04:03:38,840 --> 04:03:42,080
Speaker 3: clickbait economy. My reporting goes through a series of misleading

4398
04:03:42,160 --> 04:03:44,400
Speaker 3: viral claims about the attacks on trans people from the

4399
04:03:44,400 --> 04:03:47,920
Speaker 3: Trump administration and Red States that have been recently flooding

4400
04:03:48,080 --> 04:03:51,080
Speaker 3: the zone and overwhelming the senses with an endless stream

4401
04:03:51,120 --> 04:03:55,440
Speaker 3: of forecast to doom. These viral claims are usually based

4402
04:03:55,520 --> 04:03:59,480
Speaker 3: on some irresponsible reporting designed to drive in an engagement

4403
04:03:59,600 --> 04:04:02,160
Speaker 3: rather than inform about the very real dangerous trans people

4404
04:04:02,200 --> 04:04:05,920
Speaker 3: are facing. This kind of clickbait treats every horrific potentiality

4405
04:04:06,280 --> 04:04:11,400
Speaker 3: as an inevitable eventuality, undermining our capacity to accurately assess

4406
04:04:11,520 --> 04:04:15,840
Speaker 3: risk and effectively dedicate resources to oppose pressing threats. One

4407
04:04:15,880 --> 04:04:19,760
Speaker 3: of the key outlets profiting from the panic clickbait economy

4408
04:04:19,840 --> 04:04:24,120
Speaker 3: right now has been Pink News in LGBTQ news outlet,

4409
04:04:24,360 --> 04:04:27,280
Speaker 3: which we learned last month is pivoting to a quote

4410
04:04:27,360 --> 04:04:30,000
Speaker 3: unquote reporter free newsroom.

4411
04:04:30,440 --> 04:04:33,160
Speaker 4: Incredible and just We're one of the most Aurelian things

4412
04:04:33,160 --> 04:04:37,160
Speaker 4: I've ever heard. Just holy fuck, just just on a

4413
04:04:37,280 --> 04:04:41,520
Speaker 4: base level of like, just oh, my reporter free newsgroup.

4414
04:04:43,480 --> 04:04:45,280
Speaker 3: Because of this change, one of the one of the

4415
04:04:45,360 --> 04:04:49,040
Speaker 3: journalists there, I've already quit, with four others possibly being

4416
04:04:49,120 --> 04:04:53,520
Speaker 3: laid off shortly. The sort of editorial department of pink

4417
04:04:53,640 --> 04:04:56,120
Speaker 3: News is now being taken over by their social media

4418
04:04:56,240 --> 04:04:59,320
Speaker 3: content creation wing and some of like the editorial staff,

4419
04:04:59,360 --> 04:05:04,160
Speaker 3: which are repackaging press releases and stealing the work of

4420
04:05:04,320 --> 04:05:07,560
Speaker 3: other journalists, including some other journalists who may be engaging

4421
04:05:07,920 --> 04:05:10,920
Speaker 3: in this sort of misleading reporting attempting to drive their

4422
04:05:10,920 --> 04:05:13,240
Speaker 3: own engagement. Then pink News is using that framing to

4423
04:05:13,320 --> 04:05:15,400
Speaker 3: drive their own engagement. That's why this sort of panic

4424
04:05:15,480 --> 04:05:19,160
Speaker 3: economy is a whole economy. It feeds on itself.

4425
04:05:19,800 --> 04:05:19,920
Speaker 5: Now.

4426
04:05:20,040 --> 04:05:23,360
Speaker 3: On March thirtieth, pink News published an article that went

4427
04:05:23,480 --> 04:05:27,680
Speaker 3: viral online that claimed Kentucky was quote to pass a

4428
04:05:27,760 --> 04:05:31,800
Speaker 3: bill that would declare trans people mentally ill unquote, as

4429
04:05:31,880 --> 04:05:35,400
Speaker 3: well as prohibiting trans people from teaching in schools. But

4430
04:05:36,200 --> 04:05:39,840
Speaker 3: a report from an actual Kentucky based journalist named Olivia

4431
04:05:39,920 --> 04:05:44,080
Speaker 3: Croft for the outlet Queer Kentucky clarified that no such

4432
04:05:44,200 --> 04:05:47,600
Speaker 3: bill was going to pass. The push for a bill

4433
04:05:47,720 --> 04:05:51,000
Speaker 3: declaring trans people as mentally ill was by a single

4434
04:05:51,120 --> 04:05:55,080
Speaker 3: Republican state senator named Gex Williams Jesus Christ.

4435
04:05:55,640 --> 04:05:57,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, pause there.

4436
04:05:58,160 --> 04:06:03,160
Speaker 3: Williams and Gex could not even accomplish the first step

4437
04:06:03,360 --> 04:06:07,440
Speaker 3: in the legislative process, getting the Senate committee assignment for

4438
04:06:07,640 --> 04:06:11,280
Speaker 3: this prospective bill. Gex then tried to turn his failed

4439
04:06:11,360 --> 04:06:14,440
Speaker 3: bill into a floor amendment slapped onto a separate bill

4440
04:06:14,480 --> 04:06:17,640
Speaker 3: that was expected to pass, but such an amendment still

4441
04:06:17,760 --> 04:06:21,400
Speaker 3: requires a vote on approval separate from the vote to

4442
04:06:21,520 --> 04:06:24,720
Speaker 3: pass the bill itself. Olivia Croth reported that this amendment

4443
04:06:24,760 --> 04:06:28,000
Speaker 3: does not have such support from other legislators and that

4444
04:06:28,200 --> 04:06:31,760
Speaker 3: GEX was expected to withdraw his amendment for breaking Senate

4445
04:06:31,840 --> 04:06:35,680
Speaker 3: rules on piggybacking failed bills onto different bills as an amendment.

4446
04:06:36,120 --> 04:06:38,760
Speaker 3: And even if this amendment somehow got through, the bill

4447
04:06:38,800 --> 04:06:40,680
Speaker 3: would then need to be sent back to the state

4448
04:06:40,760 --> 04:06:43,160
Speaker 3: House for approval and would spark a huge fight that

4449
04:06:43,320 --> 04:06:46,400
Speaker 3: the legislature does not have time for because the legislative

4450
04:06:46,440 --> 04:06:51,160
Speaker 3: season is now wrapping up. So after this article from

4451
04:06:51,200 --> 04:06:54,280
Speaker 3: pink news was fact checked by this really good journalist

4452
04:06:54,320 --> 04:06:58,400
Speaker 3: doing doing important reporting in Kentucky, pink News then deleted

4453
04:06:58,480 --> 04:07:01,000
Speaker 3: this article and the viral posts plugging it.

4454
04:07:01,520 --> 04:07:03,040
Speaker 4: But any corrections to.

4455
04:07:03,160 --> 04:07:06,720
Speaker 3: This false story do not spread nearly as far as

4456
04:07:06,800 --> 04:07:10,640
Speaker 3: the initial panic inducing claim. And like that's crucial here

4457
04:07:10,720 --> 04:07:13,360
Speaker 3: because the night that this article went out on pink News,

4458
04:07:13,560 --> 04:07:17,760
Speaker 3: literally my entire feed was full of dozens and dozens

4459
04:07:17,840 --> 04:07:21,000
Speaker 3: and dozens people all quote tweeting this pink News story

4460
04:07:21,440 --> 04:07:23,560
Speaker 3: and the fact check and the fact that pink news

4461
04:07:23,640 --> 04:07:26,040
Speaker 3: deleted this is not going to get spread in that

4462
04:07:26,160 --> 04:07:29,280
Speaker 3: same way now. Misleading stories like this distract from the

4463
04:07:29,480 --> 04:07:32,360
Speaker 3: very real attacks Republicans are waging in red states. Yeah,

4464
04:07:32,800 --> 04:07:36,840
Speaker 3: one of which one of a few was on Monday,

4465
04:07:37,040 --> 04:07:39,480
Speaker 3: the governor of Idaho signed a new bill into law

4466
04:07:39,520 --> 04:07:43,320
Speaker 3: that criminalizes trans people using the bathroom that matches their gender,

4467
04:07:44,000 --> 04:07:49,520
Speaker 3: including bathrooms in private businesses. A first defense would be

4468
04:07:49,520 --> 04:07:52,280
Speaker 3: a misdemeanor with punishable by up to a year in prison.

4469
04:07:52,840 --> 04:07:55,640
Speaker 3: Second offense within five years would be a felony, punishable

4470
04:07:55,640 --> 04:07:57,640
Speaker 3: by up to five years in prison. And this would

4471
04:07:57,640 --> 04:08:01,120
Speaker 3: be prison housed based on quote unquote biological sex at birth,

4472
04:08:01,240 --> 04:08:04,880
Speaker 3: which leads to abuse of trans inmates. This is the

4473
04:08:05,000 --> 04:08:07,840
Speaker 3: most extreme bathroom bill that this nation has seen so far,

4474
04:08:08,280 --> 04:08:10,680
Speaker 3: the most restrictive affecting private businesses.

4475
04:08:11,000 --> 04:08:14,440
Speaker 4: And this is sort of very very intense criminal punishment. Yeah,

4476
04:08:14,600 --> 04:08:17,280
Speaker 4: and It's also worth noting in ways there are very

4477
04:08:17,320 --> 04:08:19,800
Speaker 4: ple trans people are also just criminalized at an extremely

4478
04:08:19,880 --> 04:08:23,760
Speaker 4: high rate, and these felony charges would count for Idaho's

4479
04:08:23,760 --> 04:08:28,920
Speaker 4: three strikes law, which is a fucking nightmare. This and

4480
04:08:29,000 --> 04:08:33,480
Speaker 4: we also got the Supreme Court ruling on Tuesday which

4481
04:08:33,880 --> 04:08:38,720
Speaker 4: applies a significantly stricter level of scrutiny to any like

4482
04:08:38,920 --> 04:08:42,440
Speaker 4: ban on conversion therapy, which is probably going to end

4483
04:08:42,520 --> 04:08:45,760
Speaker 4: up killing a whole bunch of conversion therapy bans across

4484
04:08:45,800 --> 04:08:47,640
Speaker 4: the country, which, by the way, eight to one ruling,

4485
04:08:47,920 --> 04:08:52,320
Speaker 4: so a bunch of liberal justices also fucking agreed with this. Yeah,

4486
04:08:52,360 --> 04:08:54,120
Speaker 4: I like that shit is like actually happening. And then

4487
04:08:54,160 --> 04:08:57,640
Speaker 4: meanwhile we have this like haddock slop bullshit that people

4488
04:08:57,680 --> 04:09:01,200
Speaker 4: are using to get money, and it's incredibly frustrated.

4489
04:09:01,800 --> 04:09:04,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes it harder to actually evaluate the news

4490
04:09:04,360 --> 04:09:08,360
Speaker 3: as it's happening and trust certain news from certain sources,

4491
04:09:09,240 --> 04:09:11,000
Speaker 3: because we all know that these attacks are real, Like,

4492
04:09:11,040 --> 04:09:13,440
Speaker 3: there are real attacks going on that are really bad,

4493
04:09:13,720 --> 04:09:15,480
Speaker 3: but we do need to focus on the ones that

4494
04:09:15,640 --> 04:09:18,800
Speaker 3: actually are real. As opposed to a single state senator's

4495
04:09:18,840 --> 04:09:21,200
Speaker 3: amendment to a bill which is never going to pass,

4496
04:09:21,880 --> 04:09:25,120
Speaker 3: taking up all of the oxygen one night. Meanwhile, literally

4497
04:09:25,200 --> 04:09:27,800
Speaker 3: that same day, a bill like this Idaho bathroom bill

4498
04:09:27,880 --> 04:09:29,120
Speaker 3: is being signed by the governor.

4499
04:09:29,400 --> 04:09:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

4500
04:09:30,240 --> 04:09:32,840
Speaker 3: Well, on that note, I think that does it for

4501
04:09:33,000 --> 04:09:34,840
Speaker 3: us here at it could happen here.

4502
04:09:35,160 --> 04:09:37,760
Speaker 4: Put a transgirl on your couch, I guess, especially also

4503
04:09:37,880 --> 04:09:41,480
Speaker 4: now trans people from Idaho who are going to be

4504
04:09:41,600 --> 04:09:46,920
Speaker 4: fleeing and presumably believe very large numbers and great and good.

4505
04:09:47,880 --> 04:09:49,400
Speaker 3: We reported the news.

4506
04:09:50,120 --> 04:09:51,080
Speaker 1: We reported the news.

4507
04:09:57,400 --> 04:10:00,520
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4508
04:10:00,640 --> 04:10:02,480
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4509
04:10:03,280 --> 04:10:05,760
Speaker 3: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4510
04:10:05,960 --> 04:10:08,960
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4511
04:10:09,080 --> 04:10:12,600
Speaker 3: foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4512
04:10:12,720 --> 04:10:15,560
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4513
04:10:16,040 --> 04:10:17,960
Speaker 8: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

4514
04:10:18,000 --> 04:10:19,800
Speaker 8: listed directly in episode descriptions.

4515
04:10:20,200 --> 04:10:20,960
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.