WEBVTT - The Fallacy of Equality 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.680 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with Me 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:19.360 your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:26.599 Over the weekend, I posted several clips from recent television appearances, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:32.800 and I also joined MSNBC on Sunday with Reverend Al Sharpnan. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.600 And you know what I'm starting to notice, and I've 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.920 said this before, is that the comments section on my 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:45.000 pages or starting to become quite intense in terms of 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:51.280 their real anger frustration with the Biden administration at a 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.720 SIP pertains to the stance in Gaza and their stands 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.160 to be in solidarity with Israel, even though many of 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.280 us believe and know with our own eyes that war 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:08.480 crimes are being committed and that they are weaponizing their trauma. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:15.679 And I am really starting to question a lot of things, 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.440 which I will be talking about as I often do 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.080 on this show and other places, because I want people 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.560 to understand that my allegiance is not to an administration. 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.679 It is to upholding democracy that I believe is on 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.800 the brink of collapse in this country, and that while 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:40.800 we can consistently, you know, push back and be angered 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.920 with this administration, understand that we're able to do that 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.080 because this president still believes in the constitution and the 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.480 rule of law and listens to people's voices. So us 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:56.800 lifting up our voices, marching, boycotting matters in this moment, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.720 particularly as we go into the twenty twenty four election. However, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.360 throwing caution to the win by saying that folks are 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.200 not going to vote for democracy, which is exactly what 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.080 it means to vote for Joe Biden, whether or not 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:16.720 you're doing it holding your nose, closing your eyes and 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:22.160 just pulling the lever has to happen. And we are 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.360 not in a position to play games with Donald Trump 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:32.880 his dictatorial fantasies. Right like, he is telling us out 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.040 loud that he wants to be a dictator. His followers 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.040 are telling us out loud that they are going to 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.600 clean house of any career right policy people, any career 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:47.959 political people in UH to make room for the sycophants, 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.960 to make room for those that will turn the other 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.480 cheek so that they get the white Christian fascist country 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.920 of their dreams. That is not something to play with 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.079 and think that, oh, okay, well, if that happens, we'll 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.280 just fight and fight and fight the way we did 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:09.040 in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty and all will be well. No, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.360 if Donald Trump gets in, he's never leaving. And to 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.399 me that is more terrifying of a proposition for our 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.639 stability as a nation and global stability than anything else. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.960 I am happy to fight with right a president that 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.400 actually still believes in the rule of law, whether or 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.960 not I agree on what it is that he is 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:37.000 doing with Israel, right, because I fucking do not. But 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.320 as sure as hell know that I won't have a 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.480 voice and I may not have freedom right if a 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.040 Donald Trump were to come into office. And those are 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.160 the things that I think that we need to be 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.600 in deep consideration and conversation with ourselves and with those 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:58.600 around us. Coming up next on today's show, I am 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:04.680 excited to welcome on writer and author of the new 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:10.360 book Breaking Free. In the book Breaking Free, The Lie 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.560 of Equality and the Feminist Fight for Freedom, culture writer 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.960 Marcy Bianco persuasively argues that the very concept of equality 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.799 is a fallacy, an illusory goal that cannot address historic 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.520 forms of discrimination and oppression. And in our conversation we 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.919 talk about what does equality actually mean and are we 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.320 fighting for the right thing or do we need to 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:42.560 reimagine write what freedom actually looks like. She says that 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:47.360 we've been conditioned for generations to want equality. It has 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.680 become insidious in the mindset, locking us into the gender 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:56.840 binary and reductive identity politics. So my conversation with the 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.479 author of Breaking Free, The Lie of Equality and the 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:09.359 Feminist Fight for Freedom, Marcy Bianco, is coming up next. Folks. 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.960 I am so happy to welcome to ook f Daily 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.839 culture writer and the author of Breaking Free, The Lie 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:23.120 of Equality and the Feminist Fight for Freedom. In the book, Marcy, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:29.800 you explore the notion that equality is a lie. And 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.000 let me tell you something. I have said that phrase. 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:38.960 I don't know. I've said that at nauseam. And I 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.560 want you to explain to folks, because you know, we 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.040 are taught right, yes, that we are. We are fighting 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.240 for equality, we are fighting for freedom. This is what 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.760 it looks like, right, and you know, and and there 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:57.120 there are differences, I think in the way that you 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.800 maneuver through history, through these different and moments and fights. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.039 And I just want, what do you mean when you 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.840 say equality is a fallacy? Equality is a lie? 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:14.400 Okay? Well, maybe like I can't believe that you actually 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.479 have said this too. But then at the same time, 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.360 I feel like most people when I talk to them 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.839 about this book, they're like, wait a minute, just you know, 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.640 it's almost like when people say we're all equal, or 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.080 the use of the language of color blindness in particular. 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:32.359 I feel like it's this for like societal gas lighting 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.480 of the world that we actually live in, because no 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:40.479 one is born equal, No one has equal advantages in life, 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.080 equal eco socionomic backgrounds, no one is born in the 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.480 same conditions, and no one dies equally, especially in this country. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.240 Come on, you know, And so it's just kind of 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:55.359 like in all facets of our life, especially when it 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.240 comes to institutions, which you know, in this country. I 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:04.719 really focus argument on the politics and the sociality of 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.600 the United States, But when you have institutions and systems 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:14.840 built upon the genocide of indigenous people and the enslavement 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.440 of black people, you are never going to get the 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.920 full realization of any kind of equality, even if it's 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.960 so called constitutionally protected. Right. So even when we see, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.200 even when we have two constitutional amendments saying we have 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:34.320 voting rights, what has actually transpired the past one hundred 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.800 and fifty years? Two people you know, are as everyone 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.800 able to practice that right exactly? And so I, you know, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.880 these were just general observations that I felt, you know, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.600 had me asking why is it that feminist? And I 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.480 think women in general we're taught to say we just 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.800 want to be equal, or especially we heard with like 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.080 gay marriage, like we just want this same, We don't 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.360 want anything more, we don't want anything else. We just 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.920 want gay marriage the same as you, and I kept 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.160 thinking the same as you, the same in these institutions 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.160 that are woefully inadequate, right that we even see with 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.400 gay marriage, sure you can get married, but how many 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:21.000 anti LGBTQ laws coming on pieces of legislation do we 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.360 have in the States and in this federal government right now, 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:31.960 like being debated and even when equality is implemented and 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.280 you know, like exacted in laws and in policies, you know, 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.280 like not only are they fully realized, but also like 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.200 what is the endgame? You know, like what are we 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.440 trying to achieve within these in these systems? And so 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.360 I ask, why is it, you know, why is it 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.280 do we want equality so badly when we see how 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.800 it operates, when we see that it really doesn't you know, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.840 affect us all equally and rights and policies, and like, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.560 what are we actually fighting for? I don't think to 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.760 get to a world in which we can create meaningful 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:12.000 and joyful lives and create a more just world, equality 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:17.040 won't get us there. And I pull upon this large history, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:22.800 often marginalized history of feminist thinkers, writers, but also freedom 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.800 fighters like I quote James Baldwin at length right in 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:32.199 this book, because people have championed equality for generations when 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.480 it comes to their human dignity right, living authentically and 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:43.120 caring for each other in creating a more just world. 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.679 You know, I think about the fact that if we 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:58.440 use straight white men right as our bar which is 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.920 what we do, because they have been considered and still 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:09.040 now the norm, we're seeing this pushback right with more 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.440 education and critical thought, which is why we find ourselves 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.319 with a rabid right wing right now, because they see 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:22.640 their domination right falling by the wayside. They see people questioning, well, 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.080 wait a minute, because why am I measuring my life, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.440 measuring my opportunities on what it is that they have. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.160 Because the fact of the matter is exactly what you 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.240 said at the opening, which is that you can't talk 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:42.160 about equality when you're talking past the way in which 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:47.199 this country was founded. You can't talk about equality being 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.360 equal to when one group of people was forced off 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.480 of their land, right, the indigenous population had their land 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:01.080 and their children stolen from them, right, Right? Talk about 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:06.720 making black people equal to white people because one of 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:11.440 us was considered property for four hundred years, right and 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.920 the other was not. And so not even had we 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.560 been provided the forty acres and a mule that were 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:23.000 asked for from the jump, you are still talking about 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:28.520 hundreds of years of a gap in wealth building, in 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.959 educational opportunities that were robbed. So what does equality really 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.480 look like when we're actually laying those things out to 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.280 be bare? When you're talking about women who were not 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.160 able not only not to have access over their own bodies, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.840 but also the right to vote, right also the right 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:47.719 to own a credit card, which I continue to tell 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.080 people did not happen till the nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.840 four to be precise, Right, Like, what does it look 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.000 like to be equal in the workplace where one of 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:03.000 us were afforded all of those opportunities and one of 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.200 us was not. And so talk to us about what 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.959 it is that you offer in contrast to this idea 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.439 and this continued fight. Because the other thing that you 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.560 said too, and it's in our constitution. Our constitution talks 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.040 about happiness. You talk about joy. I now talk about 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:25.120 joy because I say, as the world becomes increasingly hardened, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.800 what resistance begins to look like is softness. And that 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.800 is something that has been a jump in my mindset 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.360 in my work that I've been doing. But talk to 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:41.560 us about what you are introducing other than equality. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.800 Right right, everything you said, I just there are so 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.160 many things to toug on. I'll get to freedom, but 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.800 even just briefly, you know, Supreme Court Justice John Roberts 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.560 and Clarence Thomas mentioned when they ended affirmative action, right like, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.920 they base their argument on equality and that eliminating race 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.240 discrimination means eliminating all of it. They see affirmative action 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.600 as discrimination. To your point, right, that equality fundamentally is 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:12.120 impossible within institutions that were built by a white supremacist 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.280 cisce heteror patriarchy. In contrast, what I really wanted to 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.679 offer feminists but all people, right, because my what I'm 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.080 proposing here is a feminism that is not based on 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:29.160 the gender binary in fact, I really find a huge 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.800 problem with the existing I think the predominant form of 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.600 feminism in this country has been a quality feminism for 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.280 one hundred and fifty years. Elizabeth kat Stanton, those folks 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:44.080 really champiing for equal rights two white men in particular, 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.880 and that they you know, there is record Lucretia Mott, Stanton, 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:55.400 Susan B. Anthony, everyone talking about how, you know, if 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.760 white women have the same rights as white men, they 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:03.520 will fortify white supremacy. They were not shy about talking 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.560 about fortifying white see when it came to white women's 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.880 ecal rights and specifically the equal right to vote. So 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.880 what I'm proposing instead is, you know, there's often talk 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.120 about like practicing feminism and what feminism looks like, and 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.560 sometimes it's been reduced to capital like capitalist commodification, like 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.240 a cute bag, and you know, all of that nonsense 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.480 right right right, right right, and it's like, what what 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.760 does it mean in practice? And I really believe and 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.720 this is again I and I want to be very 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.920 clear about this. Like my work, and I say this 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:40.240 in the introduction and throughout, is informed and inspired by 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.280 black feminism, the black feminism of self determination, and a 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:49.000 freedom because what I'm saying is that practice of freedom 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.120 if we think about you know, this freedom as the 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.240 ongoing practice of self creation, which is my version of 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.440 Black feminist self determination, but the ongoing practice of self 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:06.600 creation based and accountability and care. That is a type 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.400 of feminism that you practice daily and how you live 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.440 your values and how you respect the human dignity of 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.920 other people by taking accountability for how you act in 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.280 the world. And I really truly believe that if we 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:27.640 center these values care and accountability, we can begin to 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.000 change how we treat each other. Because on a daily level, 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.240 like what matters, it's how we treat each other. Right, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.920 It's even if you know there was some harm or 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.960 harassment or infringement or violence the law, you know, like 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.320 we see how the law functions come on who protects 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:51.840 and who daily basis. I really believe collectively, you know, 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.680 this idea that if we change how we treat each other, 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.160 that can change, Like that builds and that grows, and 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.440 that's a collective like that causes a collective change. It's 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:07.480 a world changing collective effort. But that becomes on a 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.040 very individual level. I believe. I don't believe it's an 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.960 either or thing, right, the personal or you know, the collective. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.040 I believe they're integrated, and so I wanted to offer 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:24.280 a practical feminism one that really too because if you 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.080 think about the issues today that are affecting us the most, 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.840 that are harming us, these are not issues of equality. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.400 There are issues of freedom, whether it's abortion, whether it's education, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.800 how we move in the world, how we identify right, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.680 our authenticity and becoming. These are not about being equal. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.600 These are about being free, right, the freedom to determine 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.960 one's life. And that's what's you know, what's really interesting, 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.760 and another reason why I'm trying to pivot us to 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.080 freedom is that what have we seen, especially over the 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:05.199 past couple of years, concerned rivatives weaponizing equality to further 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.440 write discrimination and oppression. They use the equality to end 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:17.119 affirmative action, They use equality to end COVID relief funding 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.520 for black farmers. They use the quality to prevent women 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.640 and racially marginalized folks applying for PPP loans early right, 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:29.240 not giving any real advantage. But like they keep using 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:36.639 equality to promote the racist agenda. And they're using equality 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:41.880 too in their larger broader you know, movement to end 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:46.320 abortion and to promote fetal personhood because they're espousing, right, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.600 here's the thing, equality begins in the womb. That was 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.919 the right to life, you know, like marchist slogan, equality 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:59.919 begins in the womb. And if that happens, who's who 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.560 is life? Like, we're trying to equate, equate two very 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:08.680 different things, actual legal personhood, and you know, as I go, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.560 so I want to I'm trying to be conscientious too 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.560 of how equality is being used and how it's leveraged 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.280 and how it's leveraged effectively in this country. And I 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.760 also I'm trying to promote a kind of feminism that 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.359 I feel we can all practice because you know, like 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.439 I don't know about you, but I've never woken up 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:34.199 my life saying I feel equal today, right right, like 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:39.000 it's but I have definitely had moments where I've felt 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:44.200 free and joyful and I felt fully embodied and express myself. 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.520 And I feel like people know that intuitively in their gut, 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.600 like I can feel free. Not it's not a continuous like, 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.679 it's not an eternal thing. It's a continuous practice, as 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.200 Angela Davis has told us, Right, but you can feel 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.320 it and it's real equality depends on you know, the 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.159 current people in power handing it to us, and it's 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.199 going to look like however they want it to look like. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.520 It also requires them to give up something, right. That's 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.080 that's the thing that we have to understand, is that 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.520 when you come from that lens, what it is is 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.119 it's like, oh so in order for you to get 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.760 you know, from the bottom to midway, I have to 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.120 come down, right, And so when we're moving outside of 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.399 that lens, it isn't about the oppressor. Can't use the 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.560 giving up of something as the reason to keep oppressing you. 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:45.080 Right. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.400 I think that what's important to what you offer when 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:51.840 you I want to go back to what you said 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:57.359 around care and compassion because it's like almost like taking 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:02.560 a fifty thousand foot view and looking at I'll take, 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:09.639 for instance, you know what happened during COVID with the 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:16.040 New Zealand Prime minister right versus a woman versus what 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.160 male leaders of nations were doing. And the reason why 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.520 New Zealand did not have skyrocketing COVID cases is because 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.400 she just through the lens of compassion, let me talk 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.040 to the people, let me connect us as this community 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.200 that we are all in this together. Let me bring 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.800 different people to the table because we all don't know anything. 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:41.520 Right. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:43.800 This is new to all of us. So let me 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.920 not presume that, as Donald Trump has said, I alone 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.480 can fix this. So when you look at what happened 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:59.000 real life work, through her care and compassion lens right, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:04.400 she was able to save people's lives literally, right, Toxic 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:11.320 masculinity centered around ego, right, cost a million plus lives 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:12.040 in this country. 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:12.880 That's right? 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.199 And so what I just I look at it and 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.159 I say the question that I have for you is 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.399 this is like I hear it, and we saw it 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.760 in action, and we see it in action. What does 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.160 it look like for us to get there? Knowing that 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:33.440 white men in power have a death grip on this country, 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.040 in order for us to get to a place of 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:42.440 care and compassion, Right, we have to have new leadership, right, 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.879 because who was in charge? And by virtue of the 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.119 way that we have seen the Republican Party move, we 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.480 know that they are not giving up their power. Right. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.840 We heard Brick Santorum after the election, after Ohioan's decided 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.080 that they were going to enshrine abortion rights into their 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:04.080 constitutions say democracies don't work. He said that out loud. 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.879 He said that. He said that out loud and on 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.359 news Maxine. So when we see what we're up against 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.000 and we know what could work is care and compassion, 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:15.800 what does it look like for us to get there? 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.600 Yeah, No, that's a great that's a great question. And 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:22.560 I you know, I wish I was. I'm not an 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.640 organizer or a political strategist, So I think some your 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:32.320 right at a systemic institutional level, we need those leaders 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.280 to take those stands. This is about integrity. This is 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.080 about like living your values and wanting to care for 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:44.399 your citizenship, which just into art. And actually, did you 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:49.399 know accountability is for a form of care And it 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.199 really is because if you decide that you're going to 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:56.239 take responsibility for your actions and know that you are, 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.000 you know, like Donald Trump, you are not the only 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.520 person in the world that our freedoms are interconnected. That 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.760 the situatedness, the specificity of the freedom that I have 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:13.399 in my life depends on your freedom, right like because 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:17.640 other people make like they expand my capacity for freedom. 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.160 And we saw that again with the COVID crisis, right 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.639 like with the pandemic of you know, people deciding to 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:29.199 be accountable to the situation of this global public health 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:34.960 the pandemic, and deciding to hold themselves accountable. In New Zealand, 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.560 it only it didn't take that long because everyone decided. 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.160 Everyone made that choice, and thanks to that leadership, as 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:48.120 you said, they were able to then live the past 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.480 couple of years very differently than how we've experienced it 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:56.160 in the United States. This is something it's hard because 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:58.840 I'm a pragmatist. Like this is why in my book too, 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.119 I like area of like completely saying like get rid 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:06.880 of their Capitalism has a ton of problems, especially how 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.080 it's used by people. But it's like I live paycheck 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:15.240 to paycheck, you know, it's like I'm reluctant to take 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:20.199 these very definitive stands in some regard because I'm a pragmatist. 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:25.920 So when it comes to that that leadership. Politically, I 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:33.520 think people need to begin to work within their communities. 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:37.359 But also like you know, you think about how like 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.600 what kind of groups, what kind of communities, and what 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:43.960 kind of networks do we operate in, and how can 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.239 we promote the care and well being of all of 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:51.520 us within those networks and communities, and for some people, 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.400 you know, they can't necessarily take those stands, like it's 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:56.919 a it might be too great of a risk to 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:01.040 their own situation. But you know, like in the workplace, 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:06.600 what if you reimagined policies in terms of care. Yeah, 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:12.080 and I think again it's at a local level that 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:17.119 this change can build. It's hard for me to answer 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:19.680 that question, because you're right, they have this, they had, 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:25.480 these very old white men have this death grip on 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:30.920 this nation, and they live by, as you mentioned, equality 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:34.120 being a zero sum game, meaning that there's a finite 0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:38.360 pie and oh my gosh, if you have a benefit, 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.880 then I must lose something. As a response, it's such 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:51.280 a white supremacist mindset zo zero some game. I don't 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:53.320 think I have an easy answer for that other than 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:56.439 what we've seen, you know, the past couple of days 0:25:56.480 --> 0:26:01.000 of people mobilizing and understanding that they really do have 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:03.880 the power to go to I mean, if they are 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:07.000 able to vote again, if they aren't impeded, if the 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.840 if their districts aren't being jerrymandered, to go to the 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:14.000 you know, the polls and vote and vote in that 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.159 kind of change. But I do think more locally on 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:20.840 a daily level. It's trying to center accountability and care 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:25.199 and how we operate in the worlds that we live in, 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:27.359 in the communities that we live in. I wish I 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:28.320 had like a clear now. 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:32.200 I mean, we're just you know, it's just I think 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:36.280 that what you offer, what your book, Marci offers, is 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:41.400 a possibility model, right. It's a place that provides us 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.800 a historical understanding of how things have always worked and 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:49.080 provides a framework for how they could work, how they 0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:52.080 should work. And I think that what we come to 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:56.800 understand is that nothing is easy, right, and that where 0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:59.119 we have to be though, is a place of moving 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:03.679 beyond what has been given and dream about something that 0:27:03.800 --> 0:27:07.000 is bigger, right, and think about something that is more 0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:11.600 than just being anti the thing right. And so I 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:13.720 think and I and I think that that is what 0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.840 you do. And so I just want to say thank you, 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:21.720 uh for for for writing this piece, folks. The book 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:25.040 is breaking Free the Lie of equality and the feminist 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.520 fight for freedom. And you know, Marcie, I really hope 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.159 that you will join us again on on wok F 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:35.280