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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with Me

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Speaker 1: your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.

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Speaker 1: Over the weekend, I posted several clips from recent television appearances,

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Speaker 1: and I also joined MSNBC on Sunday with Reverend Al Sharpnan.

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Speaker 1: And you know what I'm starting to notice, and I've

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Speaker 1: said this before, is that the comments section on my

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Speaker 1: pages or starting to become quite intense in terms of

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Speaker 1: their real anger frustration with the Biden administration at a

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Speaker 1: SIP pertains to the stance in Gaza and their stands

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Speaker 1: to be in solidarity with Israel, even though many of

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Speaker 1: us believe and know with our own eyes that war

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Speaker 1: crimes are being committed and that they are weaponizing their trauma.

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Speaker 1: And I am really starting to question a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: which I will be talking about as I often do

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Speaker 1: on this show and other places, because I want people

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Speaker 1: to understand that my allegiance is not to an administration.

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Speaker 1: It is to upholding democracy that I believe is on

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Speaker 1: the brink of collapse in this country, and that while

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Speaker 1: we can consistently, you know, push back and be angered

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Speaker 1: with this administration, understand that we're able to do that

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Speaker 1: because this president still believes in the constitution and the

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Speaker 1: rule of law and listens to people's voices. So us

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Speaker 1: lifting up our voices, marching, boycotting matters in this moment,

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Speaker 1: particularly as we go into the twenty twenty four election. However,

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Speaker 1: throwing caution to the win by saying that folks are

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Speaker 1: not going to vote for democracy, which is exactly what

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Speaker 1: it means to vote for Joe Biden, whether or not

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Speaker 1: you're doing it holding your nose, closing your eyes and

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Speaker 1: just pulling the lever has to happen. And we are

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Speaker 1: not in a position to play games with Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: his dictatorial fantasies. Right like, he is telling us out

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Speaker 1: loud that he wants to be a dictator. His followers

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Speaker 1: are telling us out loud that they are going to

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Speaker 1: clean house of any career right policy people, any career

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Speaker 1: political people in UH to make room for the sycophants,

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Speaker 1: to make room for those that will turn the other

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Speaker 1: cheek so that they get the white Christian fascist country

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Speaker 1: of their dreams. That is not something to play with

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Speaker 1: and think that, oh, okay, well, if that happens, we'll

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Speaker 1: just fight and fight and fight the way we did

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty and all will be well. No,

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Speaker 1: if Donald Trump gets in, he's never leaving. And to

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Speaker 1: me that is more terrifying of a proposition for our

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Speaker 1: stability as a nation and global stability than anything else.

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Speaker 1: I am happy to fight with right a president that

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Speaker 1: actually still believes in the rule of law, whether or

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Speaker 1: not I agree on what it is that he is

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Speaker 1: doing with Israel, right, because I fucking do not. But

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Speaker 1: as sure as hell know that I won't have a

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Speaker 1: voice and I may not have freedom right if a

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump were to come into office. And those are

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Speaker 1: the things that I think that we need to be

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Speaker 1: in deep consideration and conversation with ourselves and with those

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Speaker 1: around us. Coming up next on today's show, I am

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Speaker 1: excited to welcome on writer and author of the new

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Speaker 1: book Breaking Free. In the book Breaking Free, The Lie

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Speaker 1: of Equality and the Feminist Fight for Freedom, culture writer

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Speaker 1: Marcy Bianco persuasively argues that the very concept of equality

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Speaker 1: is a fallacy, an illusory goal that cannot address historic

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Speaker 1: forms of discrimination and oppression. And in our conversation we

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Speaker 1: talk about what does equality actually mean and are we

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Speaker 1: fighting for the right thing or do we need to

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Speaker 1: reimagine write what freedom actually looks like. She says that

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Speaker 1: we've been conditioned for generations to want equality. It has

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Speaker 1: become insidious in the mindset, locking us into the gender

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Speaker 1: binary and reductive identity politics. So my conversation with the

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Speaker 1: author of Breaking Free, The Lie of Equality and the

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Speaker 1: Feminist Fight for Freedom, Marcy Bianco, is coming up next. Folks.

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Speaker 1: I am so happy to welcome to ook f Daily

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Speaker 1: culture writer and the author of Breaking Free, The Lie

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Speaker 1: of Equality and the Feminist Fight for Freedom. In the book, Marcy,

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Speaker 1: you explore the notion that equality is a lie. And

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something. I have said that phrase.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I've said that at nauseam. And I

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Speaker 1: want you to explain to folks, because you know, we

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Speaker 1: are taught right, yes, that we are. We are fighting

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Speaker 1: for equality, we are fighting for freedom. This is what

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Speaker 1: it looks like, right, and you know, and and there

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Speaker 1: there are differences, I think in the way that you

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Speaker 1: maneuver through history, through these different and moments and fights.

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Speaker 1: And I just want, what do you mean when you

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Speaker 1: say equality is a fallacy? Equality is a lie?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Well, maybe like I can't believe that you actually

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Speaker 2: have said this too. But then at the same time,

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Speaker 2: I feel like most people when I talk to them

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Speaker 2: about this book, they're like, wait a minute, just you know,

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Speaker 2: it's almost like when people say we're all equal, or

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Speaker 2: the use of the language of color blindness in particular.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's this for like societal gas lighting

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Speaker 2: of the world that we actually live in, because no

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Speaker 2: one is born equal, No one has equal advantages in life,

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Speaker 2: equal eco socionomic backgrounds, no one is born in the

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Speaker 2: same conditions, and no one dies equally, especially in this country.

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Speaker 2: Come on, you know, And so it's just kind of

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Speaker 2: like in all facets of our life, especially when it

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Speaker 2: comes to institutions, which you know, in this country. I

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Speaker 2: really focus argument on the politics and the sociality of

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Speaker 2: the United States, But when you have institutions and systems

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Speaker 2: built upon the genocide of indigenous people and the enslavement

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Speaker 2: of black people, you are never going to get the

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Speaker 2: full realization of any kind of equality, even if it's

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Speaker 2: so called constitutionally protected. Right. So even when we see,

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Speaker 2: even when we have two constitutional amendments saying we have

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Speaker 2: voting rights, what has actually transpired the past one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty years? Two people you know, are as everyone

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Speaker 2: able to practice that right exactly? And so I, you know,

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Speaker 2: these were just general observations that I felt, you know,

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Speaker 2: had me asking why is it that feminist? And I

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Speaker 2: think women in general we're taught to say we just

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Speaker 2: want to be equal, or especially we heard with like

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Speaker 2: gay marriage, like we just want this same, We don't

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Speaker 2: want anything more, we don't want anything else. We just

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Speaker 2: want gay marriage the same as you, and I kept

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Speaker 2: thinking the same as you, the same in these institutions

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Speaker 2: that are woefully inadequate, right that we even see with

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Speaker 2: gay marriage, sure you can get married, but how many

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Speaker 2: anti LGBTQ laws coming on pieces of legislation do we

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Speaker 2: have in the States and in this federal government right now,

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Speaker 2: like being debated and even when equality is implemented and

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Speaker 2: you know, like exacted in laws and in policies, you know,

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Speaker 2: like not only are they fully realized, but also like

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Speaker 2: what is the endgame? You know, like what are we

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Speaker 2: trying to achieve within these in these systems? And so

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Speaker 2: I ask, why is it, you know, why is it

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Speaker 2: do we want equality so badly when we see how

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Speaker 2: it operates, when we see that it really doesn't you know,

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Speaker 2: affect us all equally and rights and policies, and like,

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Speaker 2: what are we actually fighting for? I don't think to

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Speaker 2: get to a world in which we can create meaningful

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Speaker 2: and joyful lives and create a more just world, equality

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Speaker 2: won't get us there. And I pull upon this large history,

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Speaker 2: often marginalized history of feminist thinkers, writers, but also freedom

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Speaker 2: fighters like I quote James Baldwin at length right in

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Speaker 2: this book, because people have championed equality for generations when

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Speaker 2: it comes to their human dignity right, living authentically and

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Speaker 2: caring for each other in creating a more just world.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think about the fact that if we

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Speaker 1: use straight white men right as our bar which is

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Speaker 1: what we do, because they have been considered and still

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Speaker 1: now the norm, we're seeing this pushback right with more

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Speaker 1: education and critical thought, which is why we find ourselves

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Speaker 1: with a rabid right wing right now, because they see

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Speaker 1: their domination right falling by the wayside. They see people questioning, well,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, because why am I measuring my life,

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Speaker 1: measuring my opportunities on what it is that they have.

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Speaker 1: Because the fact of the matter is exactly what you

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Speaker 1: said at the opening, which is that you can't talk

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Speaker 1: about equality when you're talking past the way in which

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Speaker 1: this country was founded. You can't talk about equality being

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Speaker 1: equal to when one group of people was forced off

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Speaker 1: of their land, right, the indigenous population had their land

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Speaker 1: and their children stolen from them, right, Right? Talk about

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Speaker 1: making black people equal to white people because one of

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Speaker 1: us was considered property for four hundred years, right and

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Speaker 1: the other was not. And so not even had we

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Speaker 1: been provided the forty acres and a mule that were

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Speaker 1: asked for from the jump, you are still talking about

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years of a gap in wealth building, in

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Speaker 1: educational opportunities that were robbed. So what does equality really

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Speaker 1: look like when we're actually laying those things out to

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Speaker 1: be bare? When you're talking about women who were not

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Speaker 1: able not only not to have access over their own bodies,

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Speaker 1: but also the right to vote, right also the right

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Speaker 1: to own a credit card, which I continue to tell

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Speaker 1: people did not happen till the nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: four to be precise, Right, Like, what does it look

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Speaker 1: like to be equal in the workplace where one of

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Speaker 1: us were afforded all of those opportunities and one of

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Speaker 1: us was not. And so talk to us about what

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Speaker 1: it is that you offer in contrast to this idea

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Speaker 1: and this continued fight. Because the other thing that you

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Speaker 1: said too, and it's in our constitution. Our constitution talks

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Speaker 1: about happiness. You talk about joy. I now talk about

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Speaker 1: joy because I say, as the world becomes increasingly hardened,

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Speaker 1: what resistance begins to look like is softness. And that

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Speaker 1: is something that has been a jump in my mindset

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Speaker 1: in my work that I've been doing. But talk to

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Speaker 1: us about what you are introducing other than equality.

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Speaker 2: Right right, everything you said, I just there are so

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Speaker 2: many things to toug on. I'll get to freedom, but

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Speaker 2: even just briefly, you know, Supreme Court Justice John Roberts

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Speaker 2: and Clarence Thomas mentioned when they ended affirmative action, right like,

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Speaker 2: they base their argument on equality and that eliminating race

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Speaker 2: discrimination means eliminating all of it. They see affirmative action

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Speaker 2: as discrimination. To your point, right, that equality fundamentally is

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Speaker 2: impossible within institutions that were built by a white supremacist

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Speaker 2: cisce heteror patriarchy. In contrast, what I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: offer feminists but all people, right, because my what I'm

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Speaker 2: proposing here is a feminism that is not based on

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Speaker 2: the gender binary in fact, I really find a huge

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Speaker 2: problem with the existing I think the predominant form of

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Speaker 2: feminism in this country has been a quality feminism for

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years. Elizabeth kat Stanton, those folks

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Speaker 2: really champiing for equal rights two white men in particular,

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Speaker 2: and that they you know, there is record Lucretia Mott, Stanton,

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Speaker 2: Susan B. Anthony, everyone talking about how, you know, if

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Speaker 2: white women have the same rights as white men, they

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Speaker 2: will fortify white supremacy. They were not shy about talking

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Speaker 2: about fortifying white see when it came to white women's

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Speaker 2: ecal rights and specifically the equal right to vote. So

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Speaker 2: what I'm proposing instead is, you know, there's often talk

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Speaker 2: about like practicing feminism and what feminism looks like, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's been reduced to capital like capitalist commodification, like

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Speaker 2: a cute bag, and you know, all of that nonsense

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Speaker 2: right right right, right right, and it's like, what what

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Speaker 2: does it mean in practice? And I really believe and

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Speaker 2: this is again I and I want to be very

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Speaker 2: clear about this. Like my work, and I say this

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Speaker 2: in the introduction and throughout, is informed and inspired by

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Speaker 2: black feminism, the black feminism of self determination, and a

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Speaker 2: freedom because what I'm saying is that practice of freedom

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Speaker 2: if we think about you know, this freedom as the

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Speaker 2: ongoing practice of self creation, which is my version of

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Speaker 2: Black feminist self determination, but the ongoing practice of self

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Speaker 2: creation based and accountability and care. That is a type

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Speaker 2: of feminism that you practice daily and how you live

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Speaker 2: your values and how you respect the human dignity of

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Speaker 2: other people by taking accountability for how you act in

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Speaker 2: the world. And I really truly believe that if we

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Speaker 2: center these values care and accountability, we can begin to

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Speaker 2: change how we treat each other. Because on a daily level,

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Speaker 2: like what matters, it's how we treat each other. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's even if you know there was some harm or

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Speaker 2: harassment or infringement or violence the law, you know, like

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Speaker 2: we see how the law functions come on who protects

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Speaker 2: and who daily basis. I really believe collectively, you know,

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Speaker 2: this idea that if we change how we treat each other,

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Speaker 2: that can change, Like that builds and that grows, and

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Speaker 2: that's a collective like that causes a collective change. It's

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Speaker 2: a world changing collective effort. But that becomes on a

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Speaker 2: very individual level. I believe. I don't believe it's an

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Speaker 2: either or thing, right, the personal or you know, the collective.

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Speaker 2: I believe they're integrated, and so I wanted to offer

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Speaker 2: a practical feminism one that really too because if you

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Speaker 2: think about the issues today that are affecting us the most,

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Speaker 2: that are harming us, these are not issues of equality.

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Speaker 2: There are issues of freedom, whether it's abortion, whether it's education,

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Speaker 2: how we move in the world, how we identify right,

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Speaker 2: our authenticity and becoming. These are not about being equal.

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Speaker 2: These are about being free, right, the freedom to determine

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Speaker 2: one's life. And that's what's you know, what's really interesting,

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Speaker 2: and another reason why I'm trying to pivot us to

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Speaker 2: freedom is that what have we seen, especially over the

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Speaker 2: past couple of years, concerned rivatives weaponizing equality to further

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Speaker 2: write discrimination and oppression. They use the equality to end

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Speaker 2: affirmative action, They use equality to end COVID relief funding

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Speaker 2: for black farmers. They use the quality to prevent women

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Speaker 2: and racially marginalized folks applying for PPP loans early right,

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Speaker 2: not giving any real advantage. But like they keep using

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Speaker 2: equality to promote the racist agenda. And they're using equality

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Speaker 2: too in their larger broader you know, movement to end

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Speaker 2: abortion and to promote fetal personhood because they're espousing, right,

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Speaker 2: here's the thing, equality begins in the womb. That was

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Speaker 2: the right to life, you know, like marchist slogan, equality

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Speaker 2: begins in the womb. And if that happens, who's who

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Speaker 2: is life? Like, we're trying to equate, equate two very

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Speaker 2: different things, actual legal personhood, and you know, as I go,

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Speaker 2: so I want to I'm trying to be conscientious too

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Speaker 2: of how equality is being used and how it's leveraged

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Speaker 2: and how it's leveraged effectively in this country. And I

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Speaker 2: also I'm trying to promote a kind of feminism that

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Speaker 2: I feel we can all practice because you know, like

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I've never woken up

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Speaker 2: my life saying I feel equal today, right right, like

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Speaker 2: it's but I have definitely had moments where I've felt

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Speaker 2: free and joyful and I felt fully embodied and express myself.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like people know that intuitively in their gut,

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Speaker 2: like I can feel free. Not it's not a continuous like,

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Speaker 2: it's not an eternal thing. It's a continuous practice, as

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Speaker 2: Angela Davis has told us, Right, but you can feel

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Speaker 2: it and it's real equality depends on you know, the

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Speaker 2: current people in power handing it to us, and it's

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Speaker 2: going to look like however they want it to look like.

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Speaker 1: It also requires them to give up something, right. That's

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Speaker 1: that's the thing that we have to understand, is that

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Speaker 1: when you come from that lens, what it is is

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh so in order for you to get

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Speaker 1: you know, from the bottom to midway, I have to

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Speaker 1: come down, right, And so when we're moving outside of

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Speaker 1: that lens, it isn't about the oppressor. Can't use the

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Speaker 1: giving up of something as the reason to keep oppressing you.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I think that what's important to what you offer when

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Speaker 1: you I want to go back to what you said

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Speaker 1: around care and compassion because it's like almost like taking

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Speaker 1: a fifty thousand foot view and looking at I'll take,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you know what happened during COVID with the

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Speaker 1: New Zealand Prime minister right versus a woman versus what

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Speaker 1: male leaders of nations were doing. And the reason why

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Speaker 1: New Zealand did not have skyrocketing COVID cases is because

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Speaker 1: she just through the lens of compassion, let me talk

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Speaker 1: to the people, let me connect us as this community

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Speaker 1: that we are all in this together. Let me bring

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Speaker 1: different people to the table because we all don't know anything.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: This is new to all of us. So let me

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Speaker 1: not presume that, as Donald Trump has said, I alone

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Speaker 1: can fix this. So when you look at what happened

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Speaker 1: real life work, through her care and compassion lens right,

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Speaker 1: she was able to save people's lives literally, right, Toxic

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Speaker 1: masculinity centered around ego, right, cost a million plus lives

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Speaker 1: in this country.

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Speaker 2: That's right?

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Speaker 1: And so what I just I look at it and

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Speaker 1: I say the question that I have for you is

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Speaker 1: this is like I hear it, and we saw it

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Speaker 1: in action, and we see it in action. What does

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Speaker 1: it look like for us to get there? Knowing that

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Speaker 1: white men in power have a death grip on this country,

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Speaker 1: in order for us to get to a place of

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Speaker 1: care and compassion, Right, we have to have new leadership, right,

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Speaker 1: because who was in charge? And by virtue of the

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Speaker 1: way that we have seen the Republican Party move, we

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Speaker 1: know that they are not giving up their power. Right.

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Speaker 1: We heard Brick Santorum after the election, after Ohioan's decided

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Speaker 1: that they were going to enshrine abortion rights into their

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Speaker 1: constitutions say democracies don't work. He said that out loud.

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Speaker 1: He said that. He said that out loud and on

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Speaker 1: news Maxine. So when we see what we're up against

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Speaker 1: and we know what could work is care and compassion,

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Speaker 1: what does it look like for us to get there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's a great that's a great question. And

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Speaker 2: I you know, I wish I was. I'm not an

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Speaker 2: organizer or a political strategist, So I think some your

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Speaker 2: right at a systemic institutional level, we need those leaders

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Speaker 2: to take those stands. This is about integrity. This is

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Speaker 2: about like living your values and wanting to care for

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Speaker 2: your citizenship, which just into art. And actually, did you

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Speaker 2: know accountability is for a form of care And it

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Speaker 2: really is because if you decide that you're going to

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Speaker 2: take responsibility for your actions and know that you are,

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Speaker 2: you know, like Donald Trump, you are not the only

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Speaker 2: person in the world that our freedoms are interconnected. That

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Speaker 2: the situatedness, the specificity of the freedom that I have

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Speaker 2: in my life depends on your freedom, right like because

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Speaker 2: other people make like they expand my capacity for freedom.

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Speaker 2: And we saw that again with the COVID crisis, right

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Speaker 2: like with the pandemic of you know, people deciding to

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Speaker 2: be accountable to the situation of this global public health

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, and deciding to hold themselves accountable. In New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: it only it didn't take that long because everyone decided.

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Speaker 2: Everyone made that choice, and thanks to that leadership, as

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Speaker 2: you said, they were able to then live the past

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Speaker 2: couple of years very differently than how we've experienced it

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Speaker 2: in the United States. This is something it's hard because

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Speaker 2: I'm a pragmatist. Like this is why in my book too,

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Speaker 2: I like area of like completely saying like get rid

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Speaker 2: of their Capitalism has a ton of problems, especially how

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Speaker 2: it's used by people. But it's like I live paycheck

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Speaker 2: to paycheck, you know, it's like I'm reluctant to take

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Speaker 2: these very definitive stands in some regard because I'm a pragmatist.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to that that leadership. Politically, I

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Speaker 2: think people need to begin to work within their communities.

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Speaker 2: But also like you know, you think about how like

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Speaker 2: what kind of groups, what kind of communities, and what

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Speaker 2: kind of networks do we operate in, and how can

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Speaker 2: we promote the care and well being of all of

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Speaker 2: us within those networks and communities, and for some people,

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Speaker 2: you know, they can't necessarily take those stands, like it's

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Speaker 2: a it might be too great of a risk to

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Speaker 2: their own situation. But you know, like in the workplace,

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Speaker 2: what if you reimagined policies in terms of care. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I think again it's at a local level that

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Speaker 2: this change can build. It's hard for me to answer

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Speaker 2: that question, because you're right, they have this, they had,

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Speaker 2: these very old white men have this death grip on

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Speaker 2: this nation, and they live by, as you mentioned, equality

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Speaker 2: being a zero sum game, meaning that there's a finite

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Speaker 2: pie and oh my gosh, if you have a benefit,

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Speaker 2: then I must lose something. As a response, it's such

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Speaker 2: a white supremacist mindset zo zero some game. I don't

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Speaker 2: think I have an easy answer for that other than

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Speaker 2: what we've seen, you know, the past couple of days

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Speaker 2: of people mobilizing and understanding that they really do have

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Speaker 2: the power to go to I mean, if they are

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Speaker 2: able to vote again, if they aren't impeded, if the

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Speaker 2: if their districts aren't being jerrymandered, to go to the

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Speaker 2: you know, the polls and vote and vote in that

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Speaker 2: kind of change. But I do think more locally on

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Speaker 2: a daily level. It's trying to center accountability and care

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Speaker 2: and how we operate in the worlds that we live in,

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Speaker 2: in the communities that we live in. I wish I

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Speaker 2: had like a clear now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're just you know, it's just I think

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Speaker 1: that what you offer, what your book, Marci offers, is

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Speaker 1: a possibility model, right. It's a place that provides us

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Speaker 1: a historical understanding of how things have always worked and

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Speaker 1: provides a framework for how they could work, how they

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Speaker 1: should work. And I think that what we come to

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Speaker 1: understand is that nothing is easy, right, and that where

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Speaker 1: we have to be though, is a place of moving

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Speaker 1: beyond what has been given and dream about something that

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Speaker 1: is bigger, right, and think about something that is more

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Speaker 1: than just being anti the thing right. And so I

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Speaker 1: think and I and I think that that is what

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Speaker 1: you do. And so I just want to say thank you,

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Speaker 1: uh for for for writing this piece, folks. The book

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Speaker 1: is breaking Free the Lie of equality and the feminist

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Speaker 1: fight for freedom. And you know, Marcie, I really hope

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Speaker 1: that you will join us again on on wok F

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Speaker 1: because I love this conversation and I think that it's

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Speaker 1: an important one for us to have and I didn't

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Speaker 1: even get to ask you about, you know, the reframing

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Speaker 1: of the narrative around feminism which has been weaponized. So

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Speaker 1: that will be a part A, part two at some point, So.

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Speaker 2: You do, Danielle.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on wok F,

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Speaker 1: always power to the people and to all the people power,

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Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.