1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,680
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,359
Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you. But

8
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. It's it could happen here.

9
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's it could happen here a podcast

10
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 1: that it is. It's happening to you here right now.

11
00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,159
Speaker 1: Bad things, good things, all sorts of things, because today

12
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,200
Speaker 1: we are talking about the ultimate and bad good things,

13
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's indictment and very brief arrest. Garrison Davis, James Stout.

14
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 1: How are we all doing today? How we all feeling

15
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:00,400
Speaker 1: this week?

16
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 2: We did it, Joe, the mission accomplished.

17
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 3: Time to pack up.

18
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dark Brandon has come for Trump finally, So I

19
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: figured we would wait until, you know, a few days

20
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 1: had gone by. There were a lot of when the

21
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 1: initial indictment was announced, we didn't even actually know what

22
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: all the charges were. There was a pretty long period

23
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 1: of time that we didn't know like what the actual

24
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 1: crime at the center of this was, but most of

25
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,520
Speaker 1: that has now is now relatively clear, as are kind

26
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 1: of the earliest stages of the fallout to the Trump indictment.

27
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,639
Speaker 1: So I feel like now is a reasonably good time

28
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: to talk about it. More may have, you know, occur

29
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 1: since we occurred, since we recorded this. But broadly speaking,

30
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: the thing that Trump got indicted by, as according to

31
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: the thirteen page court filing outlining the case against him

32
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: by Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, was what's called a

33
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 1: catch and kill scheme in which Trump and you know,

34
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 1: his his Trump bets, would basically bribe people to not

35
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,680
Speaker 1: write bad stories about him. You know, it's a hush

36
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 1: money thing. My assumption is that basically everybody at that

37
00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,160
Speaker 1: level of wealth and prominence does versions of the same thing,

38
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 1: and these, in fact, are not crimes on their own.

39
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 1: You can bribe somebody not to say a bad talk

40
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: about a bad thing you did to the press. Where

41
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 1: things get illegal is that Trump, you know, made a

42
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 1: series of payments, primarily these one hundred and thirty one

43
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:42,280
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in payments to Stormy Daniels, to buy her quiet,

44
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 1: and then he had to falsify company records or his

45
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: people falsified company records to disguise the payments as legal fees.

46
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: Bragg is arguing that not only is this a crime,

47
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: but it's a felony crime because he did this, He

48
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,959
Speaker 1: falsified these records to these disguise these payments in order

49
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 1: to further additional violations of the laws. And those additional

50
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 1: violations of the laws, the actual like core crime here

51
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 1: is that disguising under New York law, disguising these kind

52
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 1: of payments in corporate records is a crime. It's typically

53
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,360
Speaker 1: a misdemeanor, but it's a felony if the business records

54
00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 1: were intended to obscure a second crime. And in this case,

55
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 1: the second crime appears to be the use of funds

56
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 1: to advance his like presidential campaign, which was in violation

57
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: of campaign finance laws. So the core crime that makes

58
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 1: the misdemeanor a felony is the fact that he was

59
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 1: doing this in order to advance his presidential campaign, and

60
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 1: thus like the payments that he was making were basically

61
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: counted as part of the limited amount of money you

62
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: can spend, you know, financing your campaign and he violated

63
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 1: that right. That's that's the gist of it, as I understand,

64
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 1: like what's actually being argued here.

65
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems to be about the sides of it.

66
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 4: Just for people who aren't familiar. Brag is Alvin Bragg?

67
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 3: What the yeah?

68
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 4: You da Manhattan da Okay?

69
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

70
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 2: What's really concerning about this is that if they can

71
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 2: arrest Trump, that means they can arrest to any one

72
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 2: of us.

73
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 4: That's right.

74
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,479
Speaker 1: All the money that I've paid for people to hush

75
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 1: up stories about it, including Stormy Daniels, you know. No,

76
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 1: it's like people, there's a lot of talk about like

77
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: is this a weak case or a strong case? None

78
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 1: of us are lawyers, my my, I go kind of

79
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 1: both ways about this. One of them is that Alvin

80
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: Bragg is a guy who, you know, whatever he believes

81
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,800
Speaker 1: about this case, is also a prosecutor. That is a

82
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,159
Speaker 1: political position. Prosecuting someone and failing to get your man

83
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,159
Speaker 1: is bad for your career, and if that man is

84
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 1: the president who you indict for the first time in

85
00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: living memory, that would be really bad for your So

86
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,240
Speaker 1: my assumption is that Brag at least believes he's got

87
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,839
Speaker 1: a really strong case otherwise he because this is a

88
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 1: tremendous risk for him right now. Obviously, can Trump wriggle

89
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: his way out of it, well, Trump is extremely good

90
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 1: at wriggling his way out of things, and he has

91
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 1: all of the money in the world for lawyers. So

92
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,640
Speaker 1: I think it would be foolish to say it's a

93
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,480
Speaker 1: slam dunk either way. People who are saying that, like,

94
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,720
Speaker 1: this is a weird thing to prosecute him for, I guess,

95
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,359
Speaker 1: but you know it does. I can see the logic

96
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,960
Speaker 1: that this guy that Bragg is kind of going with,

97
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,720
Speaker 1: and it's do I think this should be a felony?

98
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:40,120
Speaker 4: I guess.

99
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: I don't care, as long as it does some damage

100
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 1: to the man and causes him some like consternation, which

101
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,040
Speaker 1: is like the question, right, is this actually gonna harm him?

102
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,240
Speaker 4: But yeah, like that is the more debatable question, right,

103
00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 4: Like it's just gonna harm them or help him.

104
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,280
Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of talk about is this a

105
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,760
Speaker 1: political prosecution? And my general response to that is, well,

106
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,239
Speaker 1: like nearly all prosecutions are political, right, Like, even something

107
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: that wouldn't seem like like a decision to go after

108
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 1: a rapist, well, most rapists are not actually ever charged

109
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,280
Speaker 1: or brought through the justice system. So if you're a

110
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 1: prosecutor choosing to do that in a specific case, there's

111
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: a degree of politics factoring into your decision, even if

112
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 1: it's just as as simple as like, if I take

113
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:25,880
Speaker 1: on this case and I lose it, it could harm

114
00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 1: my ability to move forward in the ways that I

115
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,440
Speaker 1: want to in my career. So the fact that now

116
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,160
Speaker 1: this is political perhaps a grander sense. I have no

117
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 1: doubt that the fact that this is Donald fucking Trump

118
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,800
Speaker 1: and everything that's happened since twenty twenty has happened that

119
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 1: he has been a party, and I have no doubt

120
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 1: that that all factors into this. But I just don't

121
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 1: see that as being like the fact that finally a

122
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 1: prosecutor is making sort of a political prosecution of a

123
00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 1: man at the top of the hierarchy is not something

124
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: that concerns me terribly.

125
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:10,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't think, Like, I'm more concerned that this

126
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,440
Speaker 4: seems to have propelled him to the front of the

127
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 4: Republican race and that he's getting a bunch of donations

128
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 4: off it than I am about any potential consequences. Like all, Yeah,

129
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 4: actual indictment.

130
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,080
Speaker 2: It is certainly an interesting political move for dissentis to

131
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 2: back Trump on this and not not like comply with extradition,

132
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 2: not that it would ever get to that point, but

133
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: that is still a move that dissent is made on purpose,

134
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 2: which is an interesting point of a move considering a

135
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 2: future candidacy, and it.

136
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: Is let's talk about that a second, because obviously thirty

137
00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 1: four felony counts sounds like a lot. That is in

138
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: fact quite a few felonies. But the at least the

139
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: coverage I'm reading is like it's basically unheard of for

140
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 1: someone to actually do jail time for this as a

141
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 1: first defense, which I don't know, whatever, it's absolutely breathtaking.

142
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 4: He doesn't have a single crime on him, giving me

143
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:06,920
Speaker 4: he's essentially a career criminal.

144
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 1: Well, there there are continuing like there's like the potential

145
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: for prosecution still from like that call he had with

146
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,400
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State of Georgia, which we'll talk about

147
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 1: a little bit.

148
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there are a few sort of more

149
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 4: serious there's a number of things that, Yeah, this may

150
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 4: not be the last Trump criminal indictment that we see.

151
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 2: Oh god, we can we can only hope.

152
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 4: We can only hope because because.

153
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 2: It only gets more funny from here, and that's the

154
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:37,440
Speaker 2: only reason to hope.

155
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, well unless it doesn't.

156
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of like panic from some people,

157
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 1: certain certain folks in the progressive and kind of center

158
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 1: left media sphere who are like, this is just handed

159
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 1: Trump the nomination. This might have just handed Trump the election.

160
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 1: From what I'm looking at and from the polling I'm

161
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 1: looking at, I mean, I think there's a good chance

162
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 1: this helps I mean, I think the certainly supports the

163
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:07,200
Speaker 1: argument that this will help him cinch the nomination. I

164
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 1: don't really think that was super in doubt before, although

165
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,199
Speaker 1: he has definitely gained on Desantas since all of this,

166
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,560
Speaker 1: this whole process started, there is evidence I'm looking at

167
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,200
Speaker 1: a five thirty eight article right now, Trump's indictment might

168
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 1: be making him more popular among Republicans. But kind of

169
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,959
Speaker 1: the point that's actually made is that the group that's

170
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,680
Speaker 1: that's getting more likely to back him is his base.

171
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 1: Like maybe it's people who were softer on him because

172
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,080
Speaker 1: he didn't back you know, the j sixth people. Maybe

173
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: some of them are just folks who kind of drifted

174
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: away because you know, it's the years in between a

175
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,319
Speaker 1: presidential election and that's a natural thing. So it may

176
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: have galvanized his base. He's certainly he's raised four or

177
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,000
Speaker 1: five million dollars.

178
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 4: He's seven.

179
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: Now he's claiming seven. I mean that seems real possible.

180
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 1: He is saying that a significant chunk of it. I

181
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,079
Speaker 1: think like twenty percent might be more than that. Now

182
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,640
Speaker 1: we're like first time donations. That is what his people

183
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 1: are claiming. That is not I have no way of

184
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,120
Speaker 1: knowing if those numbers are legitimate. What we can say

185
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,640
Speaker 1: is that the polling that we're seeing nationally does not

186
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: back the idea that this is causing a sea change

187
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 1: in the likelihood of Americans to support Donald Trump. About

188
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 1: sixty nine percent of Americans, according to a very nice

189
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 1: according to an economist you Go poll, say that in general,

190
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 1: failing to report having spent campaign money on payments in

191
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,320
Speaker 1: order to keep someone silent about an issue to effect

192
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 1: and affect the outcome of an election is a crime.

193
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,800
Speaker 1: About ninety percent Biden voters back this, while about fifty

194
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,959
Speaker 1: four percent of those who voted for Trump in twenty

195
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,960
Speaker 1: twenty said the same, Which is interesting. Now, that doesn't

196
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 1: mean they also think that this is what Trump did, right,

197
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,200
Speaker 1: They're just saying they think that that is a crime.

198
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 1: About fifty seven percent of Republicans according to that same

199
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 1: or according to a Yahoo News yugav poll, about fifty

200
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: seven percent of Republicans and Republican leaners said they would

201
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 1: support Trump and a head to head against Ron DeSantis,

202
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,440
Speaker 1: who received thirty one percent. That's an increase in support

203
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 1: for the president by about ten percent, but DeSantis has

204
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,880
Speaker 1: only gone down by like eight percent, so you can

205
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 1: see like he basically what's happening is that this is

206
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 1: causing people to flock from DeSantis to him, which is

207
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 1: not kind of evidence that we're seeing like a broader

208
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:40,439
Speaker 1: national sweep. Quinnipiac University, n PR, PBS News Hour Marist

209
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,079
Speaker 1: Pole kind of broadly supported the idea that investigations into

210
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,720
Speaker 1: Trump are popular among Americans, more popular than not. At

211
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,080
Speaker 1: least about fifty six percent of Americans say the investigations

212
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: into Trump are fair, about forty one percent say they're

213
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,400
Speaker 1: a witch hunt. In dependants are pretty split on the issue,

214
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: but obviously like Democrats, wildly supportive Republicans very much against.

215
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,679
Speaker 1: Most college educated adults come down on this being fair,

216
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 1: as do most gin Z and millennial people. Adults without

217
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 1: a college education, White evangelicals and those in small towns

218
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: are most likely to call it a witch hunt. An NPR,

219
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,439
Speaker 1: PBS News Hour Marist poll shows a plurality of Americans.

220
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 1: Forty six percent believe Trump has done something illegal related

221
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 1: to those investigations. Another twenty nine percent say Trump has

222
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 1: done something unethical but not illegal, while only twenty three

223
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 1: percent say he's done nothing wrong. Overall, fifty seven percent

224
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 1: of Americans say that criminal charges filed against Trump should

225
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,360
Speaker 1: disqualify him from a presidential bid. Thirty eight percent say

226
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 1: it should not. That would be an area where I

227
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 1: actually agree with the Republicans. I don't think that having

228
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: charges against you should disqualify you from running for president.

229
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,520
Speaker 1: But man, I think if you are a fucking murderer,

230
00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,720
Speaker 1: you should be able to run for president. People have

231
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 1: the right to run for and vote for whoever the

232
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,439
Speaker 1: fuck they want, and I think that that is a

233
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 1: strong core belief of mine. Not going to vote for Trump,

234
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 1: but I think the fact that he's getting charged with

235
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of felonies should not. If he was in jail,

236
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 1: he should be able to run as people have in

237
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 1: the past.

238
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 4: In my opinion, Yeah, Eugene Debs famous Trump President, and

239
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 4: I'm kind of more interested actually in I think the

240
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,319
Speaker 4: Republican response is fairly predictable, Like all of this we

241
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 4: could have called that, you know, the moment they said

242
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,319
Speaker 4: they were indicting him the Democrats, Like, I'm look, I

243
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:35,920
Speaker 4: don't think the Democrats are ever going to do anything

244
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 4: useful that will really change material conditions or make things

245
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,000
Speaker 4: much better for working people in this country. But the

246
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,440
Speaker 4: fact that it gives them the option to pivot back

247
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 4: to like Orange Man bad as their only campaign, as

248
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 4: their only promise, as their only sort of principle, which

249
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 4: like they put forward as a reason to vote for them,

250
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,320
Speaker 4: is still bad. I think like it prevents even the

251
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,960
Speaker 4: mudicum of accountability that we have for all the shit

252
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 4: that the Democrats have done and all the shit that

253
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 4: they haven't done in the past what like three two,

254
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 4: two and a half years since the election.

255
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,880
Speaker 1: I think that's so much broader of a problem than

256
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: just dealing with this set of charges.

257
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 4: I am.

258
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 1: I am sympathetic to the idea if you just kind

259
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: of look at history that you can't let people do

260
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 1: the kind of shit Trump did and not try to

261
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 1: fucking go after them and not hammer the sons of bitches, right,

262
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,080
Speaker 1: and this is this is not you know they went

263
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 1: after after the Beer Hall putch, Hitler was jailed for

264
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 1: like a year, So it doesn't mean that, like slaps

265
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 1: on the wrist don't necessarily have much of a protective effect.

266
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 4: But I don't know.

267
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 1: I am so torn on this. I mean, obviously it's

268
00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 1: really funny. I think it if this is kind of

269
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 1: the start of a series of prosecutions that's going to

270
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: make this guy's life hell, and that might actually even

271
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 1: force some consequences for him, then I think that's broadly speaking,

272
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 1: a good thing, as long as it doesn't like disqualify

273
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: him from the presidency, which I think would be a

274
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: bad precedent.

275
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 4: But I don't know.

276
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm broadly on team yeah, man, fuck him up, like

277
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: we know this guy would have, and in fact has

278
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 1: promised to if he gets into power again, use the state,

279
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 1: use the Justice Department, remake it in his own image,

280
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 1: and destroy his enemies. So I'm not against the idea that,

281
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: like well, the dims, I tend to agree with you

282
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 1: on most things, James, Like I don't believe the Democratic

283
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 1: Party deserves to have an easy election right now, because

284
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 1: they've failed. I mean, this is the week where we're

285
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 1: getting the announcement from Biden that he's essentially taking kind

286
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 1: of the soft answer to the GOP attack on trans

287
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: people participating in sporting events. We were also about a

288
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 1: week out from his most recent announcement on or maybe

289
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: actually it's been more like a couple of weeks. On

290
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 1: the border shit, we just had that horrible fire over

291
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 1: in Juarez like a week or so ago. Like, the

292
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 1: Biden administration has let a lot of people down in

293
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 1: a number of ways. There's you know, some of the

294
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 1: drilling shit that's about to start up again in Alaska

295
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 1: is really unsettling to me. So I agree with you.

296
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: I don't like the idea that they can make this

297
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 1: be an Orange Man bad election again. And I'm hopeful

298
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: that some of what we've seen, you know, particularly like

299
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 1: the most recent election in Chicago, you know, maybe maybe

300
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: there's kind of at least room at the state level

301
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 1: for a lot more progressive to edge out kind of

302
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: centrist dims and force some consequences that way. But I

303
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 1: also am worried about, you know, this authoritarian who threatened

304
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,640
Speaker 1: to jail and murder a bunch of people. I care

305
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 1: about and like I want, I want him to spend

306
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: the rest of his life tangled up in that shit.

307
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,439
Speaker 4: I don't know that that's what this is going to be.

308
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,159
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they'll they'll fail miserably here, but I

309
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: don't know. I do think the kind of panic that

310
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 1: you're getting from some people that like this handed them

311
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,439
Speaker 1: the election, I'm not seeing evidence that that's the case.

312
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,119
Speaker 1: I think that maybe if this had happened in like

313
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen or even twenty twenty, sure you might get

314
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 1: something like that. But at the point where at now,

315
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 1: I just don't think new people are coming to Trump

316
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:41,840
Speaker 1: in numbers.

317
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

318
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it very much makes sense for the liberal

319
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,199
Speaker 2: state apparatus to try to defend itself from what it

320
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 2: sees as like an insurgent, reactionary factor, right, Like that

321
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 2: that is how they view Trump and Trump's political power,

322
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: so it makes sense they will use their own powers

323
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,000
Speaker 2: to try to resist that from gaining control. Again, whether

324
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 2: or not you believe the state apparatus should exist at all,

325
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 2: or how valid you view its existence, it makes sense

326
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 2: what they're doing.

327
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not I am.

328
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I am surprised they committed to it

329
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 1: because there is in part because this is a tremendous

330
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 1: risk for Brag and the people around him. Right if

331
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: if this fails, which it very well might, you know,

332
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,199
Speaker 1: obviously that would have could have consequences for everybody, but

333
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, it could have really serious career consequences for

334
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,440
Speaker 1: this guy. And I am surprised that you've you've got

335
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 1: someone willing to kind of throw the dice here, and

336
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that maybe that inspires especially since this case,

337
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 1: by the way, since I'm sure people are curious. No

338
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,120
Speaker 1: one I've looked at who knows more about the law

339
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 1: than me expects this to hit trial quickly. Again, Trump

340
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 1: has all of the money in the world, and this

341
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 1: is like probably going to be a pretty winding process

342
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,680
Speaker 1: outside of just the normal problems of like a rich

343
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,119
Speaker 1: man is being accused of a series of crimes and

344
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 1: has many lawyers. The Secret Service has a lot to

345
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: say and when and how the actual trial part of

346
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 1: this commences, and that has a chance of extending it.

347
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 1: So my hope is that as this kind of winds on,

348
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 1: maybe the fact that Bragg was willing to kind of

349
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 1: take a shot in the dark here, so to speak,

350
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 1: inspires some of these other prosecutors who have been, you know,

351
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,439
Speaker 1: poking at Trump to take a swing, and maybe with

352
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 1: enough swings, you know, it'll be like that guy we

353
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 1: had on Troy Hurtebes and his bear armor suit. You know,

354
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of bikers to surround him with

355
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 1: two by fours and just swing.

356
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 4: Until they're all broken and he's on the ground.

357
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 2: It'll be like that scene from a Vengers Endgame, and

358
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 2: all of the George Soros DA's are just.

359
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 4: Garrison, absolutely not led by George.

360
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 1: Sorry, I've never been angrier at you right now than

361
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: bringing up that fucking Avenger scene.

362
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, did y'all watch Trump's video response.

363
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,880
Speaker 2: Oh, the one that played on all of the news

364
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 2: stations except for MSNBC.

365
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we should talk. I actually did not watch it. Now.

366
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 4: I attempted to avoid that as well.

367
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: Actually, well I watched it yourself to that for us, Robert,

368
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 1: I sure did, and I have a summary of the

369
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: most salient parts. First off, I think that MSNBC made

370
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: the right call. They kind of summarized what was going on,

371
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 1: but like didn't just let him speak, you know, uninterrupted,

372
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: for it was like fifteen minutes, something like twenty minutes.

373
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 4: I've interrupted, Robert, would you like to be interrupted by

374
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 4: some plugs for goods and services?

375
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely? You and buddy, Donald Trump is a master spokesman

376
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 1: and these are master products.

377
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 4: Get your goal. We're back.

378
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 6: Uh.

379
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: It's been such a glorious, glorious time. Everyone's everybody's really

380
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 1: feeling powerful today, mighty anyway, Trump. So, I don't know,

381
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 1: I watched this fucking thing. I guess my overall sentiment

382
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 1: would be kind of boring, right, This is not the

383
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 1: level of energy or the degree of kind of like

384
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: manic violent undercurrents that like his American Carnage speech had,

385
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 1: or even that like some of his more recent speeches

386
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: in front of crowds have had. I don't see. There's

387
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: so many people I've watched have takes on this who

388
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: are like and that. One of the joys of Twitter

389
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: is you'll see some guy who's I don't know, an

390
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: analyst at some newspaper be like, wow, Trump was really

391
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 1: low energy. He seems frightened. You know, I'm telling you,

392
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: this is a scared man. He's worried about these charges.

393
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: And then like someone else with almost the same CV

394
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: at a different place will be like wow, Trump seems angry.

395
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: You know, he's about to he's about to lash back.

396
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: Everybody better be ready for his counter strike. And honestly,

397
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: I just thought it was like kind of perfunctory. It

398
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: didn't see he certainly didn't seem low energy, but he

399
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: didn't seem like he had He didn't seem like he

400
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: had much to say other than kind of meander over

401
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 1: some of his some talking points that are at this

402
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: point mostly pretty lukewarm. He kind of runs through at

403
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: the start of this a laundry list of right wing

404
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: talking points that like the Democrats spied on his campaign

405
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, that he was subjected to fraudulent investigations

406
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 1: from the Russia and Ukraine stuff to the impeachments to

407
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: the raid on mar A Lago. And then he broadens

408
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: it by talking about how the FBI and the DOJ

409
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: relentlessly pursue Republicans. And I was kind of expecting him

410
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: to lean more into the I am your vengeance shit

411
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: that he's been doing lately. He doesn't really as much

412
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: as I had expected him to in this Like you can,

413
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: he kind of like dips his toes into it, But

414
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: I think he's so focused on what's happening to him

415
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: that he doesn't he doesn't like push that as much

416
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: as I was kind of expecting. So this is what

417
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: comes after him like ranting about the DOJ and the

418
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: FBI relentlessly pursuing Republicans. He then kind of like goes

419
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: into the election fraud claimed stuff again. He gives a

420
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: bunch of lies there about the election, then about there

421
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: being like ballot stuffed and all that kind of shit.

422
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: Then he like pivots straight from that to talking about

423
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: how Twitter purportedly worked with the Biden family to hide

424
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: information about Hunter Biden. This is like debunked Twitter file shit. Yeah,

425
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: update on Twitter files. Matt to Beebe has just left

426
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: Twitter because post substances subseec. We do know obviously like

427
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: they did stuff like say hey, please remove this video

428
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: that shows Hunter Biden's penis, but also like that's not

429
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: number one is not supposed to be stuff that's on Twitter.

430
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 1: That's kind of like crossing the revenge porn line. And

431
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: you know, both sides made requests that things be removed.

432
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: Trump claims, and I'm not sure where he says that.

433
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: There's like like somebody calculated this, but I haven't been

434
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: able to find who made this calculation that if Twitter

435
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: hadn't intervened against him, he would have won the national

436
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: election by seventeen points. And then he's like, and that's

437
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even need that many. You know, you could

438
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: have dropped that by sixteen point eight and I still

439
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: would have won, which is not true. Really again, it's

440
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: all just lies.

441
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 4: It goes on.

442
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: He compares the United States to a third world country

443
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: because of the twenty twenty election. He calls Alvin Bragg

444
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: a Soros backed prosecutor, which he does a lot. It's

445
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: not true, but brag. You know, people are using Soros

446
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 1: backed as like at least a lot of the Nazis

447
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: are are really leaping on that one.

448
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, they've gone back to Soros, Like yeah, they did

449
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 4: the three parentheses for a while, like the Santis mentioned

450
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 4: stories at least twice in his place. Yeah. Yeah, it's

451
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 4: a big, big one for them. I mean, I think

452
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 4: it is.

453
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: It is it is a good move on their part

454
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: to frame this prosecution as election interference like that is

455
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: that is a smart move for them to get to

456
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: funnel all of this via that narrative.

457
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it helps keep the election fraud, all lies, lies, going.

458
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: It also helps because there's been a number of like,

459
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, Chessa Buden who got booted in San Francisco

460
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: recently is one example.

461
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 4: But we've seen a number of like progressive.

462
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: Prosecutors get elected by kind of dim and you know,

463
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: center left coalitions, and that allows them to kind of

464
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: connect this to one of the more successful talking points

465
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: was is the purported like horrible violence in the streets

466
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: of cities like San Francisco and whatnot, the like surgeon

467
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 1: crime and liberal you know, cities with liberal prosecutors. Again,

468
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: it's all bullshit, but it's not a bad tactic for

469
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: tying into like, well, let's make a link between this

470
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: thing Trump is claiming that's hurting him and this thing

471
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: that people see every night on like Fox News that

472
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: has been a pretty durable talking point for the right

473
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: for several years.

474
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: Now.

475
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: Trump makes it. There's a weird line in here where

476
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: he says that like even the Rhinos and the Democrats

477
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: agree that the case against him is bad.

478
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 4: I'm not sure.

479
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I suspect he's just kind of

480
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: like looking at Twitter chaff there. He then kind of

481
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: derails a bit by talking about Afghanistan and all of

482
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: the military equipment and lives lost in the same breath,

483
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: and then from that he kind of one of the

484
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: things that comes up over and over in this is

485
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: him talking about how embarrassing this time is for our country,

486
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: how all of our enemies are laughing at us, et cetera.

487
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: Like that is a I mean, he's been making that

488
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: point for a long time, but it definitely it's one

489
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: of those things I think is a little bit of

490
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: a window into the man's thought process, because he clearly

491
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: thinks and perhaps I mean it must have a degree

492
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: of resonance with his base, but the idea that like

493
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: America has been embarrassed because he's facing charges and because

494
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: of you know, Biden's failures as he sees it over

495
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan and elsewhere, Like, embarrassment is a big thing

496
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: he tries to get across in this that like, you know,

497
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: Lady Liberty's been caught with their fucking skirt up or

498
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: something like that. It's a I don't know, it's interesting

499
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: to me that that's such a focus for him. There's

500
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: a couple of fun lines in the part about the military.

501
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: He talks about how it's woke at the top, but

502
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: under him, it was able to defeat Isis in four weeks, which, man,

503
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: it took years, Like we know it took years.

504
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 4: I was there for some of it. It was a

505
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 4: large part of that was not Americans at all.

506
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: But no, no, in a large part of it was

507
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: not Americans at all. There's a weird moment where he

508
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: talks about the investigation over his call with Selenski and

509
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: then that call where he tried to force Georgia's Secretary

510
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: of State to discard votes that he's being investigated for,

511
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: where he's like, this is one of like the most

512
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: beautiful Trump moments of the whole speech, because he's like,

513
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, that perfect call I had with Selensky, I

514
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: told you all was a perfect call. Where my call

515
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: with Georgia's secretary of state was even more perfect. It

516
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: was the best call anybody's ever had. Nobody had a

517
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: problem with it. Lots of guys were listening in and

518
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: they all thought it was great.

519
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: It's just.

520
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: He can be such a funny man. It's not even insane.

521
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 1: It's just like, I don't know, nobody else talks like that.

522
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: Nobody else describes a phone call as perfect, right, like

523
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: a normal And this is maybe there's a degree of

524
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: Trump's success you can see in this, But like, no

525
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: normal person being accused of like having attempted to interfere

526
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: with an election during a phone call would describe the

527
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: call as perfect. You know, a normal call politician would

528
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: refute the claims against them, would say, you know, I

529
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: never did this, I never did that. You know this

530
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: is taken out of context or whatever. Trump's just like

531
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: it was perfect. But you don't remember the last perfect

532
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: call I told you about that people thought might have

533
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: been a crime. Even more perfect. This is the most

534
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: perfect phone call anyone's ever had. Yeah, then we get

535
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: along derailment about the Biden, like, you know, the classified

536
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: document shit that got him rated. He talks about how

537
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: Biden's possession of classified documents was like the worst that

538
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: anyone's ever done and was criminal because he was just

539
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,479
Speaker 1: the vice president. But the president's allowed to do it,

540
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: but everybody does it, but the way Biden did is

541
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: the worst that anybody did it. Yeah, it's like, I

542
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: don't know, it's there. It's not like it's not an

543
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: interesting Trump speech. I don't think he's like panicked or anything.

544
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: I just kind of I don't know, maybe he's just

545
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: sort of like checking off a thing on the to

546
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: do box. But it's not it's not one of the

547
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: it's not one for the speech books, right or for

548
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: the history books. I don't know the speech books. That's

549
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: not a that's not a thing. That's not a thing

550
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: at all. There is a really fun moment where he's

551
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: like kind of late in the speech, in between him

552
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: complaining about Letitia James, he like points to his sons

553
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: and he's like, I got two great sons, sons both

554
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: doing really great. And then he's like and bear, and

555
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: then as an afterthought, he's like, Baron's gonna do a

556
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: great job too, someday.

557
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 4: He's tall, an amazing father talking of told did you

558
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 4: see that they do? Also, they faked a mugshot of

559
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: him and made him six foot five? Who faked the

560
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: mug shot? The Trump campaign faked a mug shot of

561
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 4: him to sell much that just added like several inches

562
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 4: to his A man with no insecurities.

563
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: Trump a legalist arc. I'm not saying there's nothing to

564
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: be concerned about in the right wing reaction here. It

565
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: is worth kind of looking at the response that has

566
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: occurred has largely been fucking nonsense circus shit. Right, At

567
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: most of the big rallies, particularly in New York that

568
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: have happened as a result of this, there have been

569
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: more press on the ground than anyone on either side

570
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: of things. Yeah, it's not it's just so far not

571
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: pulling people out, you know. Do I think there's a

572
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: chance of you know, isolated terrorist attacks as you know,

573
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: by people who see themselves as defending Trump or democracy

574
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: or whatever. Certainly not a zero percent chance. But in

575
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: terms of like things that I think are likely to

576
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: have a mass to stabilizing effect, I'm not seeing it yet.

577
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that's due just to

578
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: the fact that the Trump supporters who are kind of

579
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: have the highest potential of being convinced to do that shit,

580
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: are all scared as hell, both of the FEDS and

581
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: of each other. The sheer number of them that have

582
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: like turned not each other during the j sixth investigations

583
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: like has means that whenever there's talk about doing another

584
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: big series of rallies, it devolves in a lot of

585
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: these online places into like, well, you know, this is

586
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: probably being set up by the Feds. This is probably

587
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: a honeypot to trap us, which is I don't know,

588
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: it's not a situation. I would say you should rely

589
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: on lasting forever, but that does kind of seem to

590
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: be where we are right now.

591
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: One other aspect of the right wing response that I

592
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: think is worth mentioning is they have is some of

593
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: some of their like propagandists and political people have made

594
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: the promise that since since now, since that now there's

595
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: been a precedent set for indicting for former presidents. Now

596
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: now they finally are able to go after Democratic politicians

597
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: whenever they want. And yeah, I just I just am

598
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: worried that they're going to threaten us with a good time.

599
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And it's it's also like it's not just

600
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: threatening us with a good time, because we have seen

601
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: in Tennessee right now they're forcing two Democratic legislators out

602
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: for their support of gun control and like you know.

603
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 4: Black Democratic yeah too, black Democratic legislators.

604
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, in line with most of the

605
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: Democratic Party on gun control. But what is happening here

606
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: is anti democratic bullshit like that is it is authoritarian.

607
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: It is completely fucking unacceptable, and people ought to be

608
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: out in this like a lot more ought to be done,

609
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: and I think probably a lot more Like I don't

610
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: this that's one of the thorny questions that actually does

611
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: concern me, Like what do you do in a situation

612
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: like this? What do the what kind of leverage do

613
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: the Feds even potentially have? It certainly doesn't look like

614
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: they're in the mood to do anything now, because I

615
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: think that's the kind of that's the kind of thing

616
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot more of in red

617
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: states in order that what little resistance at listen, and

618
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: that's concerning.

619
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: They're not gonna go after someone like Obama, which frankly somebody,

620
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: somebody should for the amount of that.

621
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there should be charges against the man.

622
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: There should be charges against Bush. Uh, you know, the doves,

623
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: there should be some charges against Clinton. Fuck it, go

624
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: after them, all right, yeah yeah, yeah, you dig up

625
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: George H. W.

626
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 4: Bush put them on trial as a corpse like that one.

627
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 4: Pope Like, I'm on board.

628
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: But no, they're gonna they're gonna end up going after

629
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: there's like small like minority politicians who are like yeah,

630
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: fighting for like reasonable things, you know.

631
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: And who are doing things to actually jam up the

632
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: works of kind of the march of far right. Yeah,

633
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: authoritarian laws Red States exactly. And you know, I am

634
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: sure that as that picks up pace, they will point

635
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: out what's being done to Trumps a justification, But like

636
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: people should be aware that it's not why they're doing it.

637
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: They're doing it because it looks like it's going to

638
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: work for them in Tennessee. And they did it in

639
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: Tennessee for the reasons that had nothing to do with

640
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:08,479
Speaker 1: fucking Trump.

641
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Yeah. If you want to talk about like

642
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 4: what fascism makes a big part of it, is that

643
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 4: weaponizing of the state apparatus, right, yes, against a position

644
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 4: against you, whatever your escapegoat group, And like that does

645
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: concern me for people living in Red State.

646
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I'm not saying there's nothing to be worried

647
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: about from the right. I'm just saying, at the moment,

648
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: when I'm looking at like the way I kind of

649
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: conceive of a threat matrix, I don't see us in

650
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: a more dangerous position as a result of Trump getting charged.

651
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: And I think an argument could be made that it's

652
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: a positive move.

653
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 4: I really hope we get another nail gun guy. Oh man.

654
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that fucking dude who tried who tried to solo

655
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 1: the FBI with a nail gun.

656
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: Maybe a net girl come in with like a jigsaw

657
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 4: or a.

658
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: Yeah no, no, no, no, I think I think ladders.

659
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: I think it's it's it's time for like a ladder

660
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: mob that that's that's what I'm excited to see. Ladders

661
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: and like simple pulleys.

662
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 4: It's getting pinned to a building with someone twenty feet

663
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 4: away with a ladder. Make a make a tributchet judge,

664
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 4: it's the Gorne has been thrown down.

665
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's let's have a continuing series of competitions

666
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: to see who can build like the most effective medieval

667
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: siege equipment. I want to see some fucking scorpions up

668
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: on the hill.

669
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 4: You know I'm going to do? Is it Greek fire?

670
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 4: Turkish fire?

671
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: When you put yeah, I mean that really that's a boy.

672
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: That's like the Hums debate. James, you don't.

673
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 4: It's Cypress fire and we can be fine.

674
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: I don't know where where you guys get any of

675
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 1: their thoughts on the Trump arraignment, indictment, arrest et No.

676
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 4: It's very funny. I did enjoy seeing that guy fall

677
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 4: off his tour bike. That was a highlight of the

678
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 4: week for me.

679
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a good video from the New York

680
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: Protest of a guy falling off a tall bike.

681
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, shout out to skateboard.

682
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: I will, I will, let's see, I will send send

683
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: a few things to the chat. This is the signal

684
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: chat that I feel like people are worth seeing. This

685
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: is what I spent this is what I spent most

686
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: of my day doing, is sending people these memes. I

687
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: think it's important that.

688
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: That is that is that Ruth bader Ginsburg with a

689
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: biggie crown saying, tell Donald, I want him to know

690
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: it was me, Garrison.

691
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 4: Yes, that is No, you're joking. I if I if

692
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 4: I actually see Ruth bend again for Funck's sake, Rakai

693
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 4: with a pussy hat. Oh god, looks like brunches back

694
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 4: on the menu. Boys. That one I do appreciate.

695
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was there was a good one that was

696
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: like it was like the jailer dropping off Trump in

697
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: Epstein's cell, all all of all of all of the

698
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: lights go off, and then from the corner, a man

699
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: in a dark cloak says Brandonson's his regard.

700
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 4: What a wonderful time for memes.

701
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: Well, everybody, that's our that's our episode on the Trump arrest,

702
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: we figured we should we should talk about that to

703
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: answer the question that so many people ask me, are

704
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: we closeer to having a civil war? I don't know, man,

705
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It doesn't feel like this. This has moved

706
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: the needle on that at all.

707
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: The national divorce is happening any day now, any day now,

708
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: I swear like.

709
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I think the thing that's worrying right now is, you know,

710
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: not just kind of the low level series of exchanges

711
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: of terror attacks and shootings and murders and stuff and

712
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: just street violence that I do think is going to

713
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: kind of continue to be a problem up through twenty

714
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: twenty four, but also just like what we've been talking

715
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: about in terms of Red states pushing for these increasingly

716
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: really violent laws aimed at doing direct physical harm to

717
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: small groups of people that they consider to be their

718
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: enemies for whatever reason of identity. That is, like the

719
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: increasing criminalization of groups of people in Red States, the

720
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: flight of folks from those states, the fact that you

721
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: are kind of seeing the country settle into two blocks

722
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: that have wildly different legal systems that are often opposed

723
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: to each other. That's a conflict that is absolutely happening.

724
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: There's no denying that it's occurring. This is not a

725
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: debatable thing, and I don't see the FEDS having any

726
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: idea of how to fix this at the moment. We'll

727
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: see where the elections go in twenty twenty four. The

728
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: fact that Wisconsin that their Supreme Court election went well.

729
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 4: Means a lot.

730
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: It means that that's one st where the process that

731
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: we're seeing happening in places like Florida and Tennessee. That

732
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: is a significant amount of people protected from that. And

733
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: it also means a lot for the twenty twenty four election.

734
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: But it's we are in a really rough place still.

735
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm not like thinking we're in at the edge of

736
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six point two or whatever the fuck the

737
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: right way these day, Yeah, eighteen sixty.

738
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 4: Five or whatever. Robert Evans is going to personally be

739
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 4: the next John Brown, Yeah, I hopefully not, But I am.

740
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 7: I am.

741
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: I think I'd be really good at a being a

742
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: terrible farmer.

743
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 4: As you read, Yeah, ehh yeah, that picture of John

744
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 4: Brown like leading the troops will remain one of my

745
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 4: favorite pieces.

746
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, no, he's got he's got a hell

747
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: of a beard in that one. Yeah, I don't know,

748
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: I think the threat, you know, contain in use. But

749
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: broadly speaking, what's happened to Trump is either good or neutral,

750
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: but certainly funny. And that's I think a good point

751
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: to end on for the day.

752
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 8: Agreed, Brandon sends his regards, Okay, everything's recording.

753
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 9: My cat is grooming herself.

754
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 4: So when I was the time, very great, but she

755
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 4: just used that.

756
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 9: As Okay, I mean, I'm fine with that.

757
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 4: Whatever, Okay, let's do it. That's very true, is grooming herself,

758
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 4: and that means that this is it could happen here.

759
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 4: And I am James Stout and I'm joined by Sharen

760
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 4: units yes, and not not her cat.

761
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 9: She's just she's just rowdy and I have to really

762
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 9: sometimes plan recording times around her schedule. And it's that's

763
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 9: just the way my life is now, and that's yeah,

764
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 9: that's the attention she deserves. None of this is important. Yeah,

765
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 9: you're care but it's a bit of a serious one, sadly.

766
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 9: So I want to talk more again about the border,

767
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 9: something we've spoken about a little bit and something I

768
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 9: kind of want to keep coming back to because things

769
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 9: haven't really got any better. In fact, they've potentially got worse.

770
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 9: So where I want to start is last month and

771
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 9: we're recording this and what the fourth of April, so

772
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 9: just over a week ago, I think a fire and

773
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 9: a detation the twenty eighth it okay, yeah, what's that?

774
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 4: Three? Yeah? A week ago? A week ago today, a

775
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 4: fire in a detention center in Suda, Juada's killed forty

776
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 4: one migrants being detained. There were than two dozen other

777
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 4: people were seriously injured, and every single one of the

778
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 4: about one hundred people detained in the migrant detention center

779
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 4: was hurt in the fire. The reason that every single

780
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 4: person was hurt became clear and a video obtained by

781
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 4: Texas Public Radio and later confirmed by the government in Mexico.

782
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 4: It shows two people dressed as guards rush into the

783
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 4: camera frame. You can see people in the cells just

784
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 4: really pulling and kicking and beating on the bars. The

785
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 4: guards sort of run up to the doors, but they

786
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 4: don't really appear to make any effort to open them

787
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 4: or to let the people out of the cells. Instead,

788
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 4: they hurry away as clouds of smoke begin to fill

789
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 4: the corners of the cells. Gradually, the smoke fills up

790
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 4: the whole screen until you can't see anything else. Than

791
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 4: the men in the cells are left to die.

792
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 9: It's horrifying.

793
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of the worst deaths that's available to

794
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 4: a human being. And the fact that people who are

795
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 4: already incredibly desperate and have taken huge risks to get

796
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 4: there and died like literally yards from the United States

797
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 4: border is just it's almost kind of unfathomably cruel. But

798
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 4: what is in a way crueler is this statement made

799
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 4: by the US Ambassador to Mexico, Ken Salazar. He said

800
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 4: the tragedy illustrated the dangerous grifts in traveling north, and

801
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 4: he cited the loss of life in two recent smuggling

802
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 4: incidents in San Antonio in the southern Mexican state of Chiapas.

803
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 4: These cases, he said, are a reminder of the risks

804
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 4: of irregular migration. But what we're talking about here is

805
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: in a consequence of irregular migration, really right, because these

806
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 4: people weren't in the hands of criminals or coyotes or cartels,

807
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 4: that they were in the hands of the Mexican government

808
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 4: when they died. And for him to blame this on

809
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 4: irregular migration, I think is very indicative of the way

810
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 4: the bad aministration has approached migration. Policy, which is to

811
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 4: try and always obfuscate and shirk the responsibility for the

812
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: cruel things that it's doing, for the consequences of its

813
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: policies and its actions, which I want to get into more.

814
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 4: I don't want to linger on this fire too much

815
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 4: because a it's onfathomably awful and like I don't think

816
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: it I don't. I think we need to spend hours

817
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 4: and hours like going over something for people to know

818
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,959
Speaker 4: that there is no situation in which the government should

819
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 4: burn fucking forty people alive that like it's inexcusable. We

820
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 4: know that, like it was. The shelter was set up

821
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, and I want to get into why

822
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 4: this shelter, which seems to have been a pretty terrible

823
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 4: condition to begin with, was set up in twenty nineteen,

824
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 4: Why people who claim to the United States to try

825
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 4: and have a better life for safe for life, ended

826
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 4: up in a shelter in Mexico, and how we've created

827
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 4: a system where people keep dying at our southern border. Right,

828
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 4: some of this will be stuff we've covered before. If

829
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 4: people have listened to the other stuff I've done on

830
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 4: the border, if people have listened to the Butterfly Sanctuary episodes.

831
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 4: They'll be familiar with some of Biden's border policies, but

832
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 4: I wanted to address these.

833
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 9: Did you see that they lowered the death toll from

834
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 9: forty to thirty eight? I guess after hospital visits, Like

835
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 9: that's the one part that I've read that is nice

836
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 9: so far as.

837
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 4: That's yeah, that's good. I've seen thirty eight, thirty nine,

838
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 4: and forty one. It wasn't sure what the exactly, so

839
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 4: thirty eight is the news.

840
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 9: Right now, I'm reading thirty eight after it was it

841
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 9: was forty and it was lowered to thirty eight.

842
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 4: Okay, well two people were re animated.

843
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it's I mean, it's just like they're

844
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 9: probably a terrible condition they're having, like life changing if

845
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 9: not like all, like it's just terrible now.

846
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like access to care for those people, I

847
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 4: mean those people may have access to care, right because

848
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 4: what happened was high profile with the news, but like

849
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 4: generally access to care for people like I have seen

850
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 4: I've seen a person die because they don't have access

851
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 4: to their medicines that are very cheap or very easily available.

852
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 4: Like again, like we are talking feet, like I could

853
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 4: throw a tennis ball into the United States and where

854
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 4: it was stilling. And that's because the system treats people

855
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: like numbers, not people.

856
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, migration center is like a jail, you know what

857
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 9: I mean.

858
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 4: It doesn't even Yeah, it's like an old timey fucking

859
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 4: Western jail with people crammed into cells with you know,

860
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 4: like legit bars on the walls. So shelter conditions in

861
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 4: Mexican detention are often very poor, and those conditions have

862
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 4: been exacerbated by something called Title forty two. People have

863
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 4: probably heard about Title forty two a lot. There's a

864
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 4: lot to say about Title forty two, but very briefly,

865
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 4: it's a trumpier of public health policy that invokes a

866
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 4: public health rule to push asylum seekers out the US

867
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 4: and into Mexico, regardless of whether or not they might

868
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 4: legally qualify for asylum. This shelter was stood up as

869
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: a consequence of something called the Migrant Protection Protocol. People

870
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 4: call it the Migrant Persecution Protocol because that's more accurate.

871
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 9: But I was going to say, like, Wow, doing a

872
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 9: great job with that.

873
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like people enjoy being wrong about George or well,

874
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 4: but this shit is perfectly or welly in Oh yeah,

875
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 4: to call that policy which kills little fucking children. The

876
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 4: migroant protectional policy is is dark they called. It's often

877
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 4: called remain in Mexico as well, which is what it does.

878
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 4: It requires people to remain in Mexico while their asylum

879
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 4: claim is processed, despite the fact that this might not

880
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 4: be a safe country for them, and that this might

881
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 4: violate various international laws and conventions on asylum, but the

882
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 4: US doesn't subscribe to all of those. As we're going

883
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 4: to find out now. Title forty two has been through

884
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 4: some legal ping pong recently, right with Biden's sort of

885
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 4: trying to get rid of it, also defind of getting

886
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 4: caught a bunch of conservative states suing to keep it.

887
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 4: So it's explained a little bit of where we're at

888
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 4: with Title forty two right now. It's actually set to

889
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 4: expire on May the eleventh. The Biden administration is rolling

890
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 4: out plans that will continue to restrict migrant access after

891
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 4: May the eleventh, because they're concerned about like a large

892
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 4: influx of migrants, which I just want to point out

893
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 4: was always going to fucking happen when you like push

894
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: people just the other side of your fictional line in

895
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 4: the sand, and at some point you're going to have

896
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 4: to start, because at some point, Mexico is already the

897
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 4: third most popular country in the world for asylum, and

898
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 4: you can't force this all on them. So since it

899
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 4: was first implemented in twenty twenty, the government has used

900
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 4: Title forty two to expel migrants from the US Mexico

901
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 4: border nearly two point seven million times. That doesn't mean

902
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 4: you will see these statistics quoted constantly, credulously by people

903
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 4: who don't understand what the fuck they're talking about, and

904
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 4: it really makes me angry. That doesn't mean two point

905
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 4: seven million people, right, Because Title forty two makes people

906
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 4: cross more than once. It creates this kind of loop

907
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 4: where DHS right normally CBP or a border patrol sorry,

908
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 4: picks people up and dumps them back in Mexico without

909
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 4: processing them. And those people are now in a place

910
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 4: they don't know, they don't have any family, that have

911
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 4: any hope, they don't have any money, and all they

912
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 4: do is is kick their heels until they can find

913
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 4: a way to cross again, or someone to cross them again.

914
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 4: And sometimes people who are facilitating those crossings will offer

915
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 4: them unlimited crossings, so they they'll pay someone to smuggle

916
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 4: them across, right, and that person will say, well, you

917
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 4: get unlimited crossings.

918
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 9: Like I didn't even realize. I didn't know it was

919
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 9: so like standard. They're like, Okay, this is gonna happen.

920
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 9: You're gonna get a limited crossing, you know what I mean.

921
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 9: Like there's like they're expecting it to be this like

922
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 9: perpetual loop.

923
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they a few years ago, maybe they

924
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 4: wouldn't have done. But another way that this is sometimes

925
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 4: termed a catch and release, which they're not fucking fish.

926
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 4: You shouldn't do that to fish either. It's not really

927
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 4: nice to fish.

928
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 9: But it's humanizing.

929
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's extremely fucking dehumanizing, right, And what it does

930
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 4: and what I've seen, what I'm not it's not like

931
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 4: a unique insight of mine, is that it forces people

932
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 4: to cross in more and more dangerous areas. Like you

933
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 4: combine that with a wall and the fact that like

934
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 4: it's very well documented that the Trump administration and wanted

935
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 4: to maximize the amount of miles of wall that built.

936
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 4: If you remember, in one of the presidential debates, he

937
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: made a claim about a certain number of miles of

938
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 4: a new wall he built. Yeah, he was just speaking

939
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 4: out of his ass I foied it like the next day,

940
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 4: and they were like they provided a number of different

941
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 4: numbers or many of which relied heavily on repairing existing

942
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 4: border fence, but they just went like hammer and Tong

943
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 4: was trying to build new sections of wall to include

944
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 4: skipping areas where it was harder to build valleys, mountains,

945
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 4: that kind of thing. Right, So what this wall does

946
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 4: is it forces people through the areas where it's hardest

947
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 4: to cross, and those are the areas where it's easiest

948
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 4: to die. And so these people are now forced to

949
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 4: make risky and risky of crossings to try and avoid

950
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 4: getting caught, or to wait in Mexico where they are

951
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 4: at a very high risk of abduction or sexual assault,

952
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 4: extortion or violence. Right, And will come on to maybe

953
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 4: a couple of those stories later, just from people I've

954
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 4: talked to. The result of this policy is that border

955
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 4: cities in Mexico are flooded with migrants, and often with

956
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 4: soldiers sent there to supposedly keep the peace. Last month,

957
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 4: the Mexican National Guard and the immigration authorities raided a

958
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 4: hotel full of Venezuelan migrants in Hualez. Local news applets

959
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 4: reported that the migrants there'stly young men threw stones at

960
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 4: the officials and there broad ensued and eventually they called

961
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 4: off the raid. In another incident, authorities raided the church

962
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 4: and dragged off a number of Venezuelan migrants who have

963
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 4: been given sanctuary there. Some were beaten, and one advocate

964
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 4: said they were essentially tortured. This prompted, yeah, this is horrific, right,

965
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 4: like a lot of so a lot of the young

966
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 4: men in the it was all men in the detention

967
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 4: center that caught fire, and most of them were from Venezuela,

968
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 4: place where I've lived in Venezuela. I have a lot

969
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 4: of sympathy for those people.

970
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 9: And yeah, she actually I found like a breakdown. I

971
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 9: guess if there is thirteen Hundurians, twelve Soans, twelve Venezuelans

972
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 9: are Colombian and an Ecuadorian, So I mean even that's crazy,

973
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 9: like there's so many people from all of those countries.

974
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 9: It's I don't know.

975
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll see a bit later that there are certain pathways,

976
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 4: like for Venice Whalen people, there are some pathways that

977
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 4: don't exist through other people that they're not insufficient and

978
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 4: they're there. How do I say this unfair? But sort

979
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 4: of they exist. But yeah, those people from from those countries.

980
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 4: We see a lot of Haitian people at the border

981
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 4: here too, but yeah, that's a pretty common kind of

982
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 4: like border mix up, right of folks. Unfortunately, often you

983
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 4: won't see Haitian folks that there are sort of segregations

984
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 4: even within the migrant community, and often Haitian folks is

985
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 4: kind of segregated out, which is which.

986
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 9: Is unfortunately, Like I thought the horror as well as

987
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 9: kind of that the population breakdown, Like wouldn't the Haitian

988
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 9: border crossing be like somewhere else?

989
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 4: I don't think to say it's it's not dumb at all.

990
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 4: I don't know what the breakdown. I know there are

991
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 4: Haitian people in Juaes. I know there are the Cuban

992
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 4: folks in Juila's too, and they've kind of some of

993
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 4: them have stayed in Juarez and established kind of their

994
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 4: own communities and that's had some sort of some negative

995
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 4: results for antimagrant feeling and Juadas. From what I've heard,

996
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 4: I know there are a lot of Haitian folks in Tijuana.

997
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 4: A lot of the Haitian people come via Brazil where

998
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 4: they've spent time like preparing for the Olympics that were

999
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 4: there and building stadium and stuff. So a lot of

1000
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 4: them tell me they've come up from Brazil. And then

1001
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 4: obviously with like increased violence in Haiti, now you'll see

1002
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 4: more Haitian people. Again, there's a decent Haitian community that

1003
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 4: also is established in Tijuana and has it's that is

1004
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 4: their home now, right, Like I.

1005
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 9: Had no idea to be honest, so now I know,

1006
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 9: I'll accept being a little bit dumb.

1007
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 4: So everyone not at all, not at all. It's not

1008
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 4: very well reported on, and I think it's honestly people

1009
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 4: have stopped reporting on it since twenty twenty as well,

1010
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 4: like since like Orange Man bad stop being like the

1011
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 4: prevailing like mass media message, no one gives a fuck

1012
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 4: about microsof anymore, Like there's a pronounced drop off when

1013
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 4: a cross of people and I don't know, there are

1014
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 4: some very good reporters, of course, you know, we've spoken

1015
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 4: to some of them in Tijuana and in San Diego.

1016
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 4: But yeah, you just there was a lot of parachute

1017
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 4: reporting on migration in the Trump era, some of it

1018
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 4: very bad, some of it by people who didn't have

1019
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 4: the language skills to be working there and didn't understand

1020
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 4: what was respectful and what wasn't and things like that.

1021
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 4: So I have strong feelings about how the migrant caravan

1022
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen was reported on, for instance. But yeah,

1023
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 4: you'll definitely see a ton of Haitian people and that

1024
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 4: Biden has gone exceptionally hard. I'll I'll include a link

1025
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 4: at the bottom of like a piece I wrote for

1026
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 4: NBC about Biden's anty Haitian bullshit but like exceptionally hard,

1027
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 4: specifically against the Haitian. So so you can find a

1028
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 4: tweet from the Haitia the United States Embassy in Haiti,

1029
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 4: where it's just got a picture of Biden, and I

1030
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 4: think it says, don't come I'm paraphrasing. Yeah, yeah, no,

1031
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 4: it's wild, Like you don't see this in other countries either,

1032
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 4: even you know they've made like they've made there's a

1033
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 4: ton of special exemptions for people from Ukraine. Right, it's

1034
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 4: hard not to see.

1035
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 9: That, of course, yeah, of course it's Ukraine.

1036
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, because it's also.

1037
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 9: Great, but also you have to look at the like

1038
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:29,399
Speaker 9: why did that happen?

1039
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 4: Right, And if we can't like express like Russian bombs

1040
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 4: kill kids in the m R two. Russian bombs kill

1041
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 4: kids all over fucking Africa, and if we can't have

1042
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 4: solidarity with them, or we can with Ukrainian people, then

1043
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 4: it's hard for me not to see that as to

1044
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 4: do with their skin color. Yeah, then that is bullshit,

1045
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 4: and so yeah, Title forty two were end in May

1046
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 4: when the COVID Public Health Emergency Order expires. Biden said

1047
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 4: earlier on that he would end Title forty two. He

1048
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 4: then faced these lawsuits from conservative states, but at the

1049
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 4: same time that by the administration fiercely defended Title forty

1050
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 4: two litigation brought by the ACLU and other groups challenging

1051
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 4: the policy. Even the CDC right the CDC Center for

1052
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 4: the Dida's Control was like, now the shit isn't necessary

1053
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 4: and it's cool, we should stop. The government has argued

1054
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 4: the public health concerns letting migrants into the country due

1055
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 4: to continued threat of COVID nineteen outweigh the possible harms

1056
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 4: done to migrants who return to cities like nogals Ijuana,

1057
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 4: Like you don't even need a COVID test to fly

1058
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 4: into this country now, I don't think right, Like if

1059
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 4: my family come visit me, so the end of the

1060
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 4: emergency kind of makes that a moot point, right, Like

1061
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 4: you can't have a public health order to protect us

1062
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 4: from it, which you're saying isn't a problem anymore. But

1063
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 4: the damage that this has done will take years to rectify,

1064
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 4: and the backlog that it's created is already being used

1065
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 4: as an excuse to do more cruel and inhumane things

1066
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,439
Speaker 4: to people who are just looking for a fair crack

1067
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 4: at life. Srean, do you know what won't build a

1068
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 4: wall around itself forced people to risk their life to

1069
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 4: get here?

1070
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 9: You tell me, James, what is it?

1071
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 4: It is these silver coins that have Ronald Reagan on them,

1072
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 4: who probably outflanks our current immigration policy. Guy, yep, Uncle

1073
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 4: ron Okay, we're back, Thank you, Ronald Reagan. Or maybe

1074
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 4: it was a gold advert. I hope it was a

1075
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 4: gold eavic so I know that everyone enjoys so so much.

1076
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 4: Please don't message Sophie about the fucking gold things.

1077
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 9: We know, yeah, we know, we know, trust us, we know.

1078
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1079
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 4: It's also it's just funny. It's funny to me that

1080
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 4: someone is buying gold adverts, and presumably none of our

1081
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 4: listeners are buying gold, and yet I have healthcare now.

1082
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 9: I mean it must be working somewhere, like you know

1083
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 9: what I mean, why how else would they afford to

1084
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 9: keep advertising. I don't know, someone's doing something.

1085
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: It's one guy.

1086
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 4: If you are that steadfast listener who buys everything we advertise,

1087
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 4: like so much for our projects. We salute your dedication.

1088
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 4: So Biden hasn't really come up with a distinctive immigration

1089
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 4: policy of his own yet. Mostly he's just kind of

1090
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 4: failed to undo the damage Trump is done created a

1091
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 4: two TiO system in which white Ukrainians get to slip

1092
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 4: the line while back and brown migrants weight terrible conditions,

1093
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,439
Speaker 4: And for some reason, he's gone as hard as fuck

1094
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 4: as he can to stop patients coming here, which the

1095
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 4: reason might be pretty obvious to some of you. Oh

1096
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 4: and we're still building the wall, but we're calling it

1097
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 4: a barrier now of course. Yeah, it's totally different brand,

1098
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 4: yeah bread, Yeah, it doesn't have a little plate on

1099
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 4: the top. It's a slightly different shape. You can, like,

1100
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 4: if you scroll back far enough on my Twitter, you

1101
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 4: can find comparison pictures of the Biden barrier and the

1102
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 4: Trump Wall.

1103
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 9: But it's like literally just like a glow up, like

1104
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 9: like a terrible horrifying glow up.

1105
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, the walls having its a little it's a

1106
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,919
Speaker 4: freedom wall now or something. But if you don't follow

1107
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 4: the Butterfly Sanctuary as well, high value Twitter account sometimes

1108
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 4: stealing automatic rifles, not stealing, i should say, but National

1109
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 4: Guard leaving automatic rifles on our property that she takes

1110
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 4: care of. But yeah, you can listen to our batter

1111
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 4: Fly Sanctuary episodes for more on like the Biden barrier.

1112
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 4: But we're more than halfway through Biden's term now, and

1113
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 4: we're beginning to see him take aim at something resembling

1114
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 4: a border policy on his own at the same time,

1115
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 4: because we're more than halfway through his term, or perhaps

1116
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 4: just because he never intended to fulfill his campaign policies

1117
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 4: about being kind to migrants, he's tried to move towards

1118
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 4: the center, and the center of US politics is like

1119
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 4: somewhere to the right of Attila the Hund these days.

1120
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 4: So he's been hit pretty hard by the Republicans on immigration,

1121
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 4: and it's worth pointing out that he's been hit pretty

1122
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 4: hard on largely on just shit that's made up or

1123
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 4: misunderstandings of this. The number of interactions that border patrol

1124
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 4: has or wilful or on wilful, I don't know, but

1125
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 4: many of the cretiques are in pretty bad faith. But nonetheless,

1126
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 4: like it's been an area where they've criticized him, right,

1127
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 4: And so he's trying to move towards the quote unquote

1128
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 4: center on that with these new policies. So he's proposed

1129
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 4: that his administration has proposed something called a transit band,

1130
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 4: So transit band, people might remember, And the initial kind

1131
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: of proposal of this was made by Stephen Miller due

1132
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 4: to looks like a lollipop and also like a white nationalist.

1133
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 9: That's a great.

1134
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 4: His head is too big for his neck, he's shiny. Yeah, yeah,

1135
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 4: that's not the only thing that's wrong with him. So

1136
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 4: this proposal would render migrants ineligible for US asylum if

1137
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 4: they crossed a sudden border illegally after failing to ask

1138
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 4: for humanitarian refuge in another country they traveled through, such

1139
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 4: as Mexico. Right, So unless you somehow come straight to

1140
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 4: the US, which you can't do because you can't get

1141
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 4: on a flight to the US without the correct travel documents,

1142
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 4: then you'd have to travel through another country. Right, And

1143
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 4: they're saying that you should apply for asylum there In practice,

1144
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 4: this would bar most Nonxican asylum seekers unless he took

1145
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 4: advantage to one of the programs that Biden has proposed

1146
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 4: to allow people in Nicaragua, Cuba, Haiti, and Venezuela with

1147
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 4: a US sponsor under a humanitarian parole program where they

1148
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 4: apply from their home country and then get to credentials

1149
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 4: to travel, so they'd stay in Cuba or whatever. This

1150
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 4: might not be safe for some people to do in

1151
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 4: those countries, but they have a means to get here

1152
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,959
Speaker 4: and it's metered I think at thirty thousand a month.

1153
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 4: Those people from those same countries and during the same conditions,

1154
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 4: if they came here on their own and then applied

1155
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 4: to asylum as is, they're right under US law once

1156
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 4: they entered the country right. And it's worth noting that

1157
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 4: like most people coming in that wanted to apply for asylum,

1158
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 4: so they wanted to turn them That might have changed

1159
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 4: it law with Title forty two, but previously people were

1160
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 4: seeking to turn themselves in right and say hey, I'm

1161
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 4: here to apply for asylum. They can now be expelled

1162
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 4: under this legislation.

1163
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 10: Right.

1164
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 4: So if they don't use this or they don't have

1165
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 4: a US sponsor, which kind of creates. You shouldn't have

1166
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 4: to know someone in America right to come here and

1167
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 4: avail yourself the basic human rights.

1168
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's just it's it's purposely like getting people out

1169
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 9: of the group that can go in, you know what

1170
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 9: I mean, Like it's excluding people.

1171
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 4: But yeah, just like yeah, right, thousands of people. Yeah,

1172
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 4: and this legislation now allows them for them to be

1173
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 4: for explanited processing and expelsion. If people do want to

1174
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 4: apply for asylum at the Southern border, they need to

1175
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 4: use an app which is called CBP one.

1176
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 9: That's just the craziest thing I've heard in a while.

1177
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 4: So yeah, it is.

1178
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 9: Like I'm on another planet, like what what I don't know.

1179
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,919
Speaker 4: It is incredibly powerful, like Libraine to be like, don't worry,

1180
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 4: We've made the app. We've got you. Like it assumes

1181
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 4: that people have the app. It's not available in all

1182
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 4: the languages that people speaking, like of course, not like

1183
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 4: last time I was at the border, like I had

1184
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 4: I worked with a colleague who spoke a Romo. I

1185
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 4: speak French his Spocationian Creole, Spanish, Russian, Ukrainian, right, like,

1186
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 4: like those are people I interviewed in in an afternoon,

1187
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 4: you know, there are dozens of languages, so the app

1188
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 4: isn't available in those languages. The app is a giant cluster. Fuck,

1189
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 4: it doesn't work. It crashes all the time. Like you

1190
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 4: can find like little kids, little kids who come up

1191
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 4: from Tijuana to go to school, who like can tell

1192
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 4: you ten things that are wrong about this app. But

1193
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 4: you can also find people who make six figure salaries

1194
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 4: in Washington.

1195
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 9: You think it's great, right, regardless, it's a fucking app

1196
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 9: on a fucking device that is like, like, I don't know,

1197
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 9: I think it's just so.

1198
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 4: Lazy.

1199
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 9: It's lazy and stupid.

1200
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 4: I don't like it. Yes, it is both of those things,

1201
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 4: and assumes people have a cell phone, which is.

1202
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 9: Yes, very elitist, Yes exactly.

1203
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it maybe your phone could get stolen being

1204
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 4: fucking someone can book all these train games, like there's

1205
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 4: a million ways. It assumes you've got fucking broadband collector liberty,

1206
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 4: you know, Wi Fi, all these things. It's yeah, it's

1207
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 4: just insane, Like it's amazing how detached one can be

1208
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 4: from reality and still be the person in charge. Yeah,

1209
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 4: what if no people in charge? So migrants crossing the

1210
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 4: border without documents can be subjected to explicited removal, as

1211
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 4: it said, the proposed regulations indicate the migrants from Cuba, Nicaraguo,

1212
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 4: and Venezuela, who generally cannot be deported due to strain

1213
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 4: relations with the governments there, would face deportation to Mexico instead,

1214
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 4: which fucking just again makes someone else's problem, right. A

1215
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 4: dozen Senate Democrats called the proposed asylum restrictions unlawful and counterproductive.

1216
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 4: They joined thousands of migrant advocates and organizations, including the

1217
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 4: United Nations Refugee Agency, in employing the administration to immediately

1218
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 4: withdraw the regulation. So there's a period of public comment,

1219
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 4: which is what's happening at the moment. Right, So he's

1220
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 4: found a policy which no one likes, both from the

1221
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 4: right end from the people are allowed to live with dignity.

1222
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 4: So that's hard to do.

1223
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 9: That's hard to do.

1224
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 4: Well, you're never he's never gonna have fucking like, I

1225
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 4: don't know what they're like tramplicants want, but like it's

1226
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,439
Speaker 4: some version of machine guns on top of a wall

1227
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 4: killing little children. And you could just be a decent person,

1228
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 4: or you could try and plicate fucking psychopathic Fox News people.

1229
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 4: So Mexico is already the third most popular destination for

1230
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 4: people seeking asylum in the world after United States in Germany.

1231
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 4: In Mexico, asylum seekers have to stay in the state

1232
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 4: where they apply, and that's resulted in large numbers people

1233
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 4: being concentrated in uh placed like Tapatula on the southern

1234
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 4: border with Guatemala, and that creates like an infrastructure issue there, right,

1235
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 4: which it's also worth I'm sure people are well aware that.

1236
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 4: I wonder why all these countries have been fucking destabilized, right,

1237
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 4: I wonder if there was a country which helped do

1238
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 4: that for deca their home, Like why can't they go

1239
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 4: back home?

1240
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 9: Like?

1241
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I mean there? Yeah, if only the clash

1242
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 4: had written a song about its understand better. So Mexico

1243
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 4: granted sixty one percent of asylum requests from January through

1244
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 4: November last year, compared to forty six percent in the

1245
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 4: USA for fiscal year twenty twenty two. That is an

1246
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 4: increase of a low of twenty seven percent under Trump,

1247
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 4: but it's still suggested more than half the people get

1248
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 4: sent back right where the fact that they get sent

1249
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 4: back to if they can't reliably go back to their

1250
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 4: home country safely. Mexico abides by something called the Katahena Declaration,

1251
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 4: which promises a safe haven twenty one's threatened by generalized violence,

1252
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 4: foreign aggression, internal conflicts, massive violation of human rights, or

1253
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 4: other circumstances which have seriously disturbed public order. The US

1254
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 4: currently observes a narrow definition that requires a person to

1255
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 4: have been individually targeted. That's a distinct thing. Right for

1256
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 4: limited reasons are spelled out in the UN Refugee Convention.

1257
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 4: But it appears that the bad administration has plans to

1258
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 4: retrain DHS agents, and they're currently telling them, or they

1259
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 4: seem to be proposing to tell them. I should say,

1260
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 4: to let migrants enter the US to pursue protection only

1261
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:15,439
Speaker 4: if they qualify under the International Convention against Torture, which

1262
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 4: is an absurdly.

1263
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 11: High yeah, like against torture. Wow, yeah, I thought you

1264
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 11: were going to say after all that. Yeah, it's it's

1265
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 11: a ridiculously high bar. Like there are very real things

1266
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 11: you could be afraid of. Like I've spoken to people

1267
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 11: who've have escaped like forced sex work, right, who've had

1268
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 11: members of their family killed, threats made to their own lives.

1269
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:40,759
Speaker 4: None of those. Maybe the forced sex work is torture

1270
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 4: but maybe some of those things wouldn't meet that bar.

1271
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 4: But I think any reasonable human being, right, if you

1272
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 4: met someone in the street and they said, hey, you know,

1273
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 4: someone so killed my daughter and my father and my uncle,

1274
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 4: and they said they're going to kill me, you'd say, like,

1275
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 4: come into my house, I'll look after you. But there's

1276
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 4: a country we're saying, fuck you, You're on your own,

1277
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's that's not how you be a good neighbor.

1278
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 4: It's also on the inside of the administration. Recently has

1279
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 4: reported that the Biden administration is considering reviving the practice

1280
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 4: of detaining migrant families caught crossing the US Mexico border illegally.

1281
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 4: So this is this is the thing that that all

1282
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 4: the people were very upset about. It the normal kids

1283
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 4: in cages thing, mm hmm. But we fucking do that

1284
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,600
Speaker 4: again as well. I guess they likely won't do like

1285
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 4: separation of minders, which which is what they did before, right,

1286
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,639
Speaker 4: they took the kids away from their parents entertained them separately,

1287
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 4: which is just fucking like I cannot imagine. It's still just.

1288
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's just unspeakable trauma and like just like for

1289
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 9: both for everybody involved. Uh, I mean like same with

1290
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 9: the wall though, like it's just the same thing. The

1291
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 9: same thing is happening. It's just like marketed differently. It's

1292
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 9: just like packaged in a different way, and it's still

1293
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 9: fucking terrible.

1294
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I just I don't know what you expect

1295
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 4: these fucking people to do, Like, and I don't know

1296
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 4: how you how you expect someone like even if you're

1297
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 4: purely self interested and you're just concerned about like US

1298
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,719
Speaker 4: security and like you know, making America great again or whatever,

1299
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 4: Like if you lock little children up, like they're going

1300
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 4: to fucking hate you and you can't blame them, like,

1301
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 4: it's it's it's inhumane, it's it's what dictators do. It's

1302
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 4: it's fucking unfathomable.

1303
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 9: But it also like drives me, like it's just insane

1304
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 9: to think about people that are actually there in the

1305
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,759
Speaker 9: flesh like that that see people like the children crying

1306
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 9: or something, and like just there's so much terrible things

1307
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 9: going on and no one does there's not enough. I

1308
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 9: don't know. I just I can't imagine doing that. It'll

1309
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 9: just be like, Okay, my job is this and I'm

1310
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 9: gonna continue.

1311
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1312
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 9: I don't like it.

1313
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,639
Speaker 4: I don't like it. No, I don't like it. Idea

1314
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 4: like this, Of all the things I've reported on, and

1315
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,639
Speaker 4: like I've reported on some dark shit and like being

1316
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 4: to some dangerous places, et cetera, nothing has been harder

1317
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 4: for me to get over than little kids at the border. Like,

1318
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 4: I have hundreds of stories about it, but I can

1319
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 4: remember one little girl. This shit makes me want to cry.

1320
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 4: I rememb there's one little girl who she had left

1321
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 4: her teddy bear behind. She wanted a teddy bear, And

1322
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 4: like this, little girls are cleaving in a fucking tent.

1323
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 7: Right.

1324
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 4: This is in twenty eighteen, when when like the mid

1325
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 4: terms were happening. So they were holding a large group

1326
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 4: of people right next to the border, right they were

1327
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 4: staying in a baseball stadium, and myself and some friends

1328
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 4: had gone to help. And this little girl was just

1329
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 4: like the sweetest little kid that she came up. She

1330
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 4: was holding my hand and then I asked if she

1331
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 4: wanted to go on my shoulders. She wanted to go

1332
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 4: on my shoulders, you know. And at this point, the

1333
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 4: way that they were getting people to leave that area

1334
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 4: and go to another area was by cutting off their

1335
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 4: access to water. Oh my god, so like we were

1336
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:56,680
Speaker 4: able to get some water, and we were able to

1337
01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 4: give them like as much water as we coabin credit cards.

1338
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 4: And I asked her like what she wanted. She said

1339
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,600
Speaker 4: she had to leave her teddy bear behind. It just

1340
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 4: fucking broke my heart, like without like you know, going

1341
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 4: into too much personal trauma. Details like that shit kept

1342
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 4: me from sleeping for weeks. Uh, and I found it

1343
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 4: so hard to come back. It was like twenty eighteen,

1344
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,560
Speaker 4: around November, I guess, and like go to like a

1345
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 4: I remember someone's having some Thanksgiving thing and just I

1346
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 4: just wanted to fucking shout at everyone and be like

1347
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 4: what the fuck is wrong with you? Anyway? So when

1348
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 4: bought her.

1349
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 9: Devastating especially from a from a child, you know, like

1350
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 9: their their experience and their perspective is just like just

1351
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 9: I don't know, you see how rad is?

1352
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I know, no, children shouldn't be treated about

1353
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 4: that full stop, Like we shouldn't be standing in the

1354
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 4: parking lot of a fucking Tommy Hill Figure discount store

1355
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:56,560
Speaker 4: in San Diego launching tear gas a little children in

1356
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 4: Mexico is one of the like the image wh of

1357
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,560
Speaker 4: like what America does to people that will stick with

1358
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 4: me forever. It's yeah, it's.

1359
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 9: I'm glad you were down there helping, though, like, especially

1360
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 9: according their access off to water is like the most

1361
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 9: like one of the most inhumane things, but then against

1362
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:17,440
Speaker 9: sold very inhumane.

1363
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that time was difficult for everyone involved. That

1364
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 4: was also one of the most impressive. This is one

1365
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 4: of the times when large NGOs weren't allowed to operate

1366
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,600
Speaker 4: because of various concerns and legal things. So the entirety

1367
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 4: of the aid effort for those people was done through

1368
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:41,760
Speaker 4: mutual aid, right through completely ad hoc mechanisms. There were

1369
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 4: church people, people from various migrant advocacy groups in San Diego,

1370
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 4: people from Altolado who we've spoken to on the podcast.

1371
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 4: That's how I met them for the first time. Number

1372
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 4: of those people actually were surveilled by border patrol, as

1373
01:13:55,680 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 4: we found out two years later, and had warrant on them, etc.

1374
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 4: But everyone who came came like not because it was

1375
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 4: their job, because it was the right thing to do,

1376
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 4: and like, there wasn't a day I was down there

1377
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 4: that there weren't people turning up with trucks full of stuff.

1378
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,680
Speaker 4: This is my friend and I. Someone managed to get

1379
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 4: us a projector from their workplace and how they got

1380
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 4: a projector from their workplace, I didn't care, and a

1381
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:23,960
Speaker 4: bunch of DVDs. My friend used to be an electrician.

1382
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 4: And they moved everyone to a nightclub. It was a

1383
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 4: nightclub and another part of Tijuana at our old nightclub,

1384
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 4: the old and massive thousands of people were in this

1385
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,839
Speaker 4: big kind of opening nightclub situation. It was very strange.

1386
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 4: They had the women and the young children in one

1387
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 4: area that like very clearly had been a pole dance room,

1388
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 4: so like anyway, and they had like these bars ort

1389
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 4: of like you know, like a balcony area. So we

1390
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 4: went up to the balcony area, and then me and

1391
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 4: a couple of these older kids who with the migrant

1392
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 4: group were able to get like climb across the room,

1393
01:14:54,760 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 4: find some wires connected projector and do a little make

1394
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 4: a little movie theater for the children. And they remember

1395
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 4: they were watching like Beverly Hills, Chihuahua when I left,

1396
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 4: and yeah, they were having like just.

1397
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 9: A little gestures are so important though.

1398
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 4: Like yeah, I mean, it doesn't fucking fax anything, but

1399
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 4: if they can have two hours of watching a film

1400
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 4: about a dog or whatever like not that, yeah exactly, yeah, yeah,

1401
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,560
Speaker 4: they deserve that. They deserve a lot more than that.

1402
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,519
Speaker 4: But yeah, it was those little nice things that made

1403
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 4: it bearable. I guess yeah, there was. I still have

1404
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 4: like fairly disturbing recollections of lots of things asking on

1405
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 4: the border. So let's just do a quote from Joe Biden,

1406
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,639
Speaker 4: because we do do love a bit of Joe Biden.

1407
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 4: My message is this, if you're trying to leave Coolba,

1408
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 4: Nicaragua or Haiti have agreed to begin a journey to America,

1409
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 4: do not do not Just shut up at the border,

1410
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 4: stay where you are and apply legally starting today. If

1411
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 4: you don't apply through the legal process, you will not

1412
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 4: be eligible for this new parole program. Anyway, Joe Biden

1413
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 4: can go fuck himself. But I think that I hope

1414
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 4: that obviously lots of little anecdotes have helped. But we

1415
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:17,680
Speaker 4: shouldn't see these people as statistics or numbers, and we

1416
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,559
Speaker 4: should see them as people. So I've got a couple

1417
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:22,560
Speaker 4: of interviews I've done, and to just one as I

1418
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 4: went back to some notes and found so I was

1419
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 4: just going to read them out, so I won't give

1420
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 4: their names just for their own security. But sometimes I've

1421
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 4: used pseudonyms on the publicies. Sometimes I have used the

1422
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 4: names when they're willing to use their names, like it's

1423
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 4: their choice, right, but it should always be their choice.

1424
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 4: If you're a fucking reporter and you're filming children without

1425
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 4: their consent or their parents consent.

1426
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:47,560
Speaker 9: And the rest camp they're not just a spectacle for

1427
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 9: your story.

1428
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. You can jog on and I hope someone

1429
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 4: throws your camera in a river. So here's one. I

1430
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,759
Speaker 4: have three daughters, aged thirteen, ten and six. I've always

1431
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 4: had my own business selling food, and I paid what

1432
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 4: we would call extortion money, but with the pandemic, I

1433
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 4: couldn't pay well. I go over three or four months.

1434
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 4: They said that I didn't pay, they were burned down

1435
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 4: my shop and me and my daughters would be raped

1436
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 4: and killed. With what little I had left, I left

1437
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 4: with my daughters. It's hard to get work here. That's

1438
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 4: an immigrant. There are some jobs, but not the sort

1439
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 4: that are for me. I have to try and be

1440
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 4: an example to my kids. One day I was juggling

1441
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 4: by the traffic lights and some guys tried to pick

1442
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 4: me up. They said they knew where I lived and

1443
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 4: they would hurt me and my daughters, who I didn't

1444
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 4: work for them. They made me work in a bar.

1445
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,240
Speaker 4: I escaped, but that's how I broke my hand. I

1446
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 4: didn't want to go to the US, but I need

1447
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 4: to leave this country now for the same reason I

1448
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 4: left my own. Well, then I'll read one more. We

1449
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 4: came from one daughters to flee the violence. We have

1450
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 4: come to this camp in the last few days, but

1451
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 4: it's scary here. We don't feel safe. There are people

1452
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 4: coming or taking photos of the children of the women.

1453
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 4: Men of for the women here money to go with them.

1454
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 4: They tried to get them to sleep with them. It's

1455
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 4: a woman here filming us as well. We found out

1456
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 4: she's a big activist for Donald Trump. This was in

1457
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. Some people came to snatch a child here.

1458
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 4: Between the group, we're working to make a security committee

1459
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 4: to protect the children because there are people who would

1460
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,640
Speaker 4: take the children here. We aren't a caravan. We're just

1461
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:18,360
Speaker 4: people from all over the world who have come here

1462
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 4: for a better future. We're asking Biden. We know it's

1463
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 4: complicated and he has a lot to sort out, and

1464
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 4: we have patients. We know he has to make compromises,

1465
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 4: but please think of us here. We're in danger. Please

1466
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 4: give us a solution.

1467
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:32,560
Speaker 9: It fucking heartbreaking.

1468
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is heartbreaking. Shit. I wish there was like

1469
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 4: some kind of happy ending I can put on this,

1470
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 4: or like, I don't know. There are great things you

1471
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,479
Speaker 4: can do with mutual a groups. There's a group that

1472
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 4: I'm hoping to interview next week called Bordlands Relief Collective

1473
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,760
Speaker 4: in San Diego who do kind of a lot to

1474
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:55,480
Speaker 4: help people crossing the border. There are groups like Altolalo

1475
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 4: you can donate to the public. Comment is still available

1476
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 4: for the Biden to propose new restrictions, so I guess

1477
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 4: you can come out of that if you think that

1478
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 4: will help. I guess this is an area sometimes where

1479
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 4: talking to politicians might help, because they make the laws

1480
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 4: that affects people's right to kind of live with basic dignity.

1481
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't have a great solution to this,

1482
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 4: especially like if people aren't in a place where they

1483
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 4: know people here are struggling to get by. I understand

1484
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 4: that not everyone can afford to donate, of course. Yeah,

1485
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 4: but yeah, this is pretty bleak. And just because it's

1486
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 4: not like being beamed into your living rooms anymore, because

1487
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 4: orange Man bad doesn't mean that lick it's still not

1488
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 4: impossibly cruel.

1489
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's I mean, just because another old guy took

1490
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 9: over doesn't mean like the same things are already there.

1491
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:52,600
Speaker 9: It's not like they just poofed into thin air like

1492
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 9: all the terrible things that are already happening. That's what

1493
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 9: I don't understand, is like people just assume. I don't

1494
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 9: know what they assume. I'm not going to amble on

1495
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,599
Speaker 9: like that. But it's heartbreaking, and you should donate if

1496
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 9: you can.

1497
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, donate, do you stuff, shout at people, do

1498
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 4: whatever you think. We'll make a difference, because it's pretty bad.

1499
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 12: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast coming live,

1500
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 12: not live, really not. I need to come up with

1501
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:36,599
Speaker 12: a better bit than coming to you live, but coming

1502
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 12: coming to you from from from now Fallen apparently on

1503
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 12: fire destroyed Chicago, so so so say the media, oracles,

1504
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 12: soothsayers and cops who live in the city who are

1505
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 12: now absolutely convinced that the city is going to descend

1506
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 12: into crime and chaos, etcetera, et cetera.

1507
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 3: After the cop candidate got absolutely blown the.

1508
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 12: Fuck out in the last elections, and yeah, with me

1509
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 12: to talk about this election and a couple of other

1510
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,720
Speaker 12: elections that happened on the same day that were very

1511
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 12: funny and where the worst people in the world got

1512
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 12: absolutely destroyed. Is Ali, who is one of my friends

1513
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:15,720
Speaker 12: and is an election analyst. Yeah, welcome to the show.

1514
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 3: How are you doing. I'm doing well. Thank you for

1515
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 3: having Mima. Nice to be nice to be here. Yeah,

1516
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,679
Speaker 3: I'm very excited. Yeah, because this is just very funny.

1517
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 3: It's extremely funny. I personally was really enjoying getting to

1518
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 3: read the Twitter tea leaves. You could tell kind of

1519
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 3: which aldermen were having meltdowns on election night.

1520
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, So I guess I guess we could start with

1521
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:42,599
Speaker 12: the stuff that happened in Chicago, which is that Paul Vallas,

1522
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 12: the butcher of the public education system, running dog of

1523
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 12: a cops, the hero of J six people. I was

1524
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 12: just kind of slacked in an election by Brandon Johnson,

1525
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,519
Speaker 12: the sort of progressive candidate who I'm very excited I

1526
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 12: no longer have to pretend that I like particularly much.

1527
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:13,519
Speaker 3: Yes, now, as as Mia, says Paul Vallas. Resident Dino

1528
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:17,480
Speaker 3: from Palos Heights, a southwest suburb of Chicago, who conveniently

1529
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 3: bought an apartment in Chicago exactly a year before the election,

1530
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,639
Speaker 3: which is how long you have to live in Chicago

1531
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:29,799
Speaker 3: to be the mayor. Lost the runoff to Brandon Johnson,

1532
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 3: a black progressive who was on the Cook County board.

1533
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 3: About when all the results are done coming in in

1534
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:39,759
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, it'll be about fifty two percent

1535
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 3: for Johnson and forty eight percent for Vallus. As Mia says,

1536
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:45,200
Speaker 3: this lets to a lot of people on the left

1537
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 3: no longer have to keep up the charade of, oh,

1538
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 3: Johnson's the best thing that has happened to us in

1539
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 3: slice bread. For if you are like more of a

1540
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 3: like Democratic Party loyal progressive voter, this is a very

1541
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 3: very good thing in your eyes.

1542
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, And I think, you know, I think it's something

1543
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 12: very interesting and kind of fitting about this, which is that, Yeah,

1544
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 12: one of the you've talked about is that, yeah, like

1545
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 12: Brendon Johnson is the first like progressive TM mayor Travers

1546
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 12: had since like I mean literally since Harold Washington, who

1547
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 12: was the first black mayor in the eighties. And it's

1548
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 12: very interesting also because a bunch of the reforms that

1549
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 12: Harold Washington did were specifically overturned by Paul Vallis. Yeah,

1550
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 12: like he's the guy you did a bunch of educational

1551
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:42,719
Speaker 12: reforms that fucking sucked, that destroyed Washington stuff.

1552
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 3: It's no, it's it's really wild. How like Chicago politics

1553
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 3: is analogous to go really out there for a second.

1554
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 3: Is analogous to the state of Hawaii in the sense

1555
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:00,439
Speaker 3: that people never die. Have the same people are going

1556
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 3: to be on your ballot for fifty years and you

1557
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 3: just kind of have to suck it up and deal

1558
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 3: with it. But every so often someone good comes along,

1559
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 3: or at least someone better, And if you get them

1560
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 3: into office the first time, and if you get them

1561
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 3: to survive their first reelection campaign, then they get to

1562
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:18,439
Speaker 3: be one of the people who's on the ballot forever

1563
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 3: and who never dies. And slowly but surely you can

1564
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 3: make Chicago politics less shitty. But yeah, as Mia said,

1565
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 3: this is going to be the first progressive Chicago mayoral

1566
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 3: administration since Harold Washington. And Johnson won the same way

1567
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 3: as Harold Washington did. On Yeah, the backbone of Johnson's coalition,

1568
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 3: just as with Harold Washington's, was black voters. Johnson got

1569
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 3: about eighty percent of the black vote. Because in Chicago

1570
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 3: elections are usually more about race than anything else. But

1571
01:24:56,040 --> 01:25:00,840
Speaker 3: in addition to the black vote, Johnson won with progressives

1572
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 3: in white and non black communities of color, as well

1573
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:11,880
Speaker 3: as LGBTQ voters, and finally fulfilling the dreams of the

1574
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 3: Here's how Bernie can still win people from twenty fifteen.

1575
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 3: A actual turnout surge of millennial and Gen Z voters

1576
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 3: the Chicago Board of Elections is. I don't think that

1577
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 3: anyone would call them great, but they do produce some

1578
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:37,519
Speaker 3: nice live statistics on election day as the votes are tallied,

1579
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:44,920
Speaker 3: and voters under forty five had a turnout surge of

1580
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:48,719
Speaker 3: I think it was about twenty percent, whereas voters older

1581
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:52,599
Speaker 3: than sixty, the raw number of their votes actually went down.

1582
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 3: And this likely does almost entirely account for Johnson's margin

1583
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 3: of victory, that he was able to turn out young

1584
01:26:00,439 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 3: voters and that old people just like stayed home.

1585
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, I think it's also you know, we talked about

1586
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 12: this in the episode we did about Paul Vallis, But

1587
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 12: one of the things about the initial election was that

1588
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 12: like the fact that Johnson made it out of the

1589
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:19,680
Speaker 12: primaries at all with a genuinely nightmarorish like age like

1590
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 12: bracket of turnout in the first round is sort of

1591
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:26,719
Speaker 12: a miracle, but you know, it got a lot better

1592
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 12: for him in this one, and that genuinely seems to

1593
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 12: have like I don't know, like I know a lot

1594
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,200
Speaker 12: of people who spent a lot of time like canvassing

1595
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 12: their assets off and it actually seems to have worked.

1596
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:43,160
Speaker 12: And I don't know, I mean, you know, it has

1597
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:45,320
Speaker 12: to be seen the extent to which this was about,

1598
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 12: like the fact that Vallas is like probably would have

1599
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 12: been the worst mayor of Chicago in like.

1600
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:57,640
Speaker 3: We don't have to go we don't have to go

1601
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:00,719
Speaker 3: back that far. Daily was mayor of Chicago as recently

1602
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:06,559
Speaker 3: as twenty eleven. That's true, but I I don't know Daily.

1603
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean it's not like Chago has good mayors,

1604
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:12,000
Speaker 12: but I think he would have been Okay, here's I

1605
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 12: think he would have been the most politically far right

1606
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 12: mayor Chicago has had in a long time. Oh yeah,

1607
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 12: Like he's just a Republican, like like a pretty like yeah,

1608
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 12: and you know that fucking sucks, but he got Clawbard.

1609
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 12: There's also there's a really funny result I want to

1610
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 12: talk about, which.

1611
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:30,360
Speaker 3: Is that Okay, so.

1612
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 12: The part of Chicago, the neighborhood of in Chicago where

1613
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 12: the Cubs Stadium is is right next to Boystown, which

1614
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:43,640
Speaker 12: is the fucking gay district. And if you if you

1615
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,160
Speaker 12: go in and look at like, well I say, I say,

1616
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 12: it's the gay district, like a lot a lot of it's.

1617
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 12: It's it's it's now the rich gay part of Chicago

1618
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:53,639
Speaker 12: because I think it's got priced out.

1619
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:56,280
Speaker 3: Well it kind of is. It's not Market Park is

1620
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:57,719
Speaker 3: the rich gay part of Chicago.

1621
01:27:58,280 --> 01:27:58,800
Speaker 4: That's true.

1622
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:00,640
Speaker 3: Okay, it's more of.

1623
01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 12: A rich kay part Chicago than it was like forty

1624
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 12: years ago, fety years ago. Yeah, but like like literally

1625
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:09,640
Speaker 12: exactly split. You can like you can like see in

1626
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 12: the data exactly split down line, the gays voted for

1627
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 12: Brandon Johnson and all the people and all the Cubs

1628
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 12: fans voted for Vallas.

1629
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:19,800
Speaker 3: It's so funny, it is. It is extremely funny. And

1630
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 3: I will give a quick shout out here to the

1631
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 3: Chicago Urbanist Twitter account who made what I personally think

1632
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,679
Speaker 3: is the funniest meme to have come out of the election,

1633
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:38,640
Speaker 3: which is a bunch of like stick figures and just

1634
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 3: like black and white labeled Vallas voters running from a

1635
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:48,599
Speaker 3: like steamroller, a pink steamroller with a rainbow like wheel

1636
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:52,519
Speaker 3: being driven by a bunch of gay people, and the

1637
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 3: steamroller is labeled boys Down.

1638
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:01,080
Speaker 12: It's really good, like they I don't know, like there

1639
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:05,600
Speaker 12: is this sort of like this is sort of like

1640
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:09,160
Speaker 12: this is the coalition that well, I mean again, we

1641
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 12: talked about it like this, this is the hair washing coalition, Like,

1642
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 12: this is the coalition that if you're an elect electoral list,

1643
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 12: like you need to produce something that looks like this

1644
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 12: if you want to have any serious chance of winning.

1645
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:23,679
Speaker 3: And yes, yeah, and the fact that it actually worked

1646
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 3: is sort of Oh, it's a goddamn miracle. Yeah, this

1647
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:30,960
Speaker 3: shit never works. People have been trying to do this

1648
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 3: for like forty fucking years and it never works. I mean,

1649
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:37,160
Speaker 3: you've been trying to do this for forty plus years.

1650
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 3: But it's also like this is really the first election

1651
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 3: that I can think of anywhere since Barack Obama's reelection

1652
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, where like, this is the coalition that

1653
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 3: actually puts someone in like an office that got a

1654
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 3: lot of national attention and that mattered. That's not to

1655
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 3: say that it like literally hasn't happened anywhere else. I'm

1656
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:00,519
Speaker 3: just saying I can't think of any off the top

1657
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 3: of my head. But like, in twenty twelve, Barack Obama

1658
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:08,479
Speaker 3: became the first person to be elected president of the

1659
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 3: United States with less than forty percent of the white vote,

1660
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:18,760
Speaker 3: a feat that has never since been repeated. Clinton got

1661
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,839
Speaker 3: less than that and lost. Trump obviously won, and Biden

1662
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:26,280
Speaker 3: won because white voters swung left in twenty twenty. So like,

1663
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 3: this is a turnout and coalitional puzzle that most people

1664
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:37,360
Speaker 3: fail to put together and that Brandon Johnson miraculously pulled off. Yeah,

1665
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 3: And I think, on the.

1666
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,680
Speaker 12: One hand, okay, this is legitimately kind of because the

1667
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 12: result is not the thing that normally happens. It is

1668
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 12: legitimately an interesting question as to why this happened, and

1669
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:52,120
Speaker 12: like a sort of like legitimately kind of difficult like

1670
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 12: political science question. On the other hand, most of the

1671
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 12: people attempting to answer it have just all my fuck God,

1672
01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 12: Like if I if I have to read another New

1673
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:05,760
Speaker 12: York Times article writing about this that's like like just

1674
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 12: clearly cobbled together from three Wikipedia articles, Like I'm gonna

1675
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:10,639
Speaker 12: literally go insane.

1676
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 3: I think you, me and every other person in Chicago,

1677
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:18,679
Speaker 3: you know, no matter if you were a Johnson voter

1678
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 3: or a value voter, or someone who stayed home. We

1679
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,080
Speaker 3: can all come together in our hatred of that five

1680
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:26,479
Speaker 3: thirty eight piece that was strong on the morning of

1681
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 3: election day. If you don't know what I'm talking about,

1682
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 3: you're lucky, and I'm not going to tell you.

1683
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:36,000
Speaker 12: If you really want to, I'll give you a very

1684
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:37,679
Speaker 12: brief summary of it, which is that five.

1685
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 3: No, no, we don't know. They did. They did. They

1686
01:31:40,439 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 3: did a racism.

1687
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:41,680
Speaker 12: They did.

1688
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:44,920
Speaker 3: That's what I'll leave it at. They did a racism

1689
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:50,639
Speaker 3: and they were very wrong. They basically did the four races, white, Black, Latino,

1690
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 3: and leftist. Yeah, which is very funny. But hopefully, I

1691
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 3: hopeful I'll take a stab at explaining what happened, and

1692
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,000
Speaker 3: hopefully it's better than most people's explanation. But I think

1693
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:08,960
Speaker 3: part of it is that, as I mentioned earlier, historically

1694
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,200
Speaker 3: Chicago elections have been about race, and like this was

1695
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 3: no exception. This was much more of an ideological break.

1696
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,640
Speaker 3: Like the ideological lines were a lot clearer in this

1697
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:26,439
Speaker 3: election than previous mayoral races. But the foundation of Brandon

1698
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 3: Johnson's electoral victory was the eighty percent of the vote

1699
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:34,840
Speaker 3: that he got in black majority neighborhoods. Black voters in

1700
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:37,680
Speaker 3: Chicago selected the black candidate because they looked at the

1701
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:39,439
Speaker 3: white guy and said, oh, we think you're going to

1702
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 3: be a massive dipshit. And beyond that, you have a

1703
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 3: couple of other things working in Johnson's favor, So like one,

1704
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 3: when it comes to the youth vote, I cannot really

1705
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 3: believe I'm saying this because I when this was announced.

1706
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:01,760
Speaker 3: It's not that I thought it wouldn't help. It's just

1707
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 3: that I wasn't sure that it would help enough. But

1708
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 3: Johnson got a lot of national progressive figures to endorse him,

1709
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:14,600
Speaker 3: including Bernie Sanders, and his campaign literally flew Bernie in

1710
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:18,759
Speaker 3: for a rally on a college campus here in Chicago.

1711
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:21,640
Speaker 3: And I think that genuinely did actually get a lot

1712
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 3: of young people to realize that there was an election

1713
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,280
Speaker 3: that they should pay attention to, which is well because like.

1714
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 12: Like like this happened, Like people fly in Bernie a

1715
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:31,320
Speaker 12: lot and it never matters, but it like it mattered here,

1716
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:36,479
Speaker 12: which is sort of amazing. Absolutely, like just a lot

1717
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 12: of this election was wild. I think the other thing

1718
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 12: that really helped Johnson was that a like Chicago is

1719
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 12: a lot less white than it used to be, which

1720
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,120
Speaker 12: is not something that usually gets said in this day

1721
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 12: and age, because Chicago is becoming white than it was

1722
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 12: like ten fifteen years ago. But Chicago was a lot

1723
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:56,520
Speaker 12: less white.

1724
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 3: Than it was in the eighties when Harold Washington was elected,

1725
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 3: and so like there was more of a ceiling on

1726
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:09,439
Speaker 3: Paul Vallas's vote than Harold Washington's opponents had, which meant

1727
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 3: that Vallas had to be able to appeal to not

1728
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 3: just white voters who reflexively were against any black candidate,

1729
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 3: but he also had to make inroads in Hispanic Asian

1730
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,840
Speaker 3: as well as Black communities and trying to get the

1731
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 3: black conservative vote, and he didn't. Vallas didn't do a

1732
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 3: terrible job here, but he just didn't do a job

1733
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 3: that was good enough. He actually probably won the Latino vote,

1734
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 3: it would. It wasn't like a huge win, but it

1735
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 3: was a win. But the problem is that turnout in

1736
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:45,920
Speaker 3: on the Southwest side of Chicago, which is where the

1737
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 3: majority of Chicago's Mexican American residents live, was just super low,

1738
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 3: just like really really atrociously in the tank, like to

1739
01:34:58,160 --> 01:34:59,760
Speaker 3: the extent like this is the kind of turnout that

1740
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 3: fires the online jokes about how no one ever bothers

1741
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:09,880
Speaker 3: to vote level bad turnout on the Southwest Side, So

1742
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:14,680
Speaker 3: if Hispanic turnout had been on the same level as

1743
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 3: white and black turnout, the race probably would have been

1744
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 3: a lot closer. Vallas also won Chinatown, which is something

1745
01:35:22,479 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 3: that got a fair amount of attention on social media.

1746
01:35:26,280 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 3: But Johnson was able to win the two other Asian

1747
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 3: ethnic enclaves in Chicago, which are the Vietnamese neighborhood in

1748
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 3: Uptown called Asian Argyle, as well as the Deci neighborhood

1749
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:44,600
Speaker 3: on the far North Side. And I don't think we

1750
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:52,559
Speaker 3: can really say how Asian voters overall voted definitively because

1751
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:56,719
Speaker 3: Asian voters in Chicago are pretty well diffused through the city.

1752
01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 3: But it's very clear that Vallas did not get the

1753
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:04,320
Speaker 3: runaway win with Asian voters that Eric Adams, for example

1754
01:36:04,439 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 3: did in New York City.

1755
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:09,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I specifically want to talk about Argyle for

1756
01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:12,000
Speaker 12: a bit, because the fact that Johnson won Argyle is

1757
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:12,879
Speaker 12: fucking insane.

1758
01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, these are like, like, this is a community

1759
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:22,440
Speaker 3: of Vietnam War refugees, Like these people are hardline anti communists,

1760
01:36:22,479 --> 01:36:24,200
Speaker 3: Like you go into these restaurants and they all have

1761
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:27,599
Speaker 3: Fox News on, so like, yeah, Johnson winning these voters

1762
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 3: is incredible.

1763
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean like like one of the most famous

1764
01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:33,280
Speaker 12: noodle shops, there was a guy who was at January sixth,

1765
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:38,840
Speaker 12: like this is this is a like a stereotypically unbelievably

1766
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:43,040
Speaker 12: dog shit place for Johnson. And yeah, and I want

1767
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:45,680
Speaker 12: to say this about Chinatown and this is something like

1768
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:47,640
Speaker 12: I mean you just you can know this something like

1769
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 12: I've been tracking for a while, I mean just by

1770
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:54,760
Speaker 12: like walking through it Chinatown during the pandemic and kind

1771
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 12: of after it, and it was having a bit before

1772
01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:00,120
Speaker 12: has gotten just notably more fascist, Like oh yeah, there

1773
01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 12: is a lot of stuff there. I mean, the anti

1774
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:08,760
Speaker 12: homelessess stuff is really really really intense. They've been going

1775
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:10,600
Speaker 12: really hard on the d And that's the thing that

1776
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 12: kind of makes sense, right, like this this is a

1777
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,559
Speaker 12: thing that you would kind of expect out of like yeah,

1778
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:17,320
Speaker 12: of course small business owners are going to like go

1779
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:19,599
Speaker 12: right like that's like that's that's you know, that that's

1780
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 12: the you can you can you can find Marx writing

1781
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:26,600
Speaker 12: about this phenomenon in like eighteen forty eight, right like

1782
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:28,679
Speaker 12: this this has been a thing since the beginning of time.

1783
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 12: But I don't know, it's gotten, it's gotten legitimately kind

1784
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 12: of scary down there.

1785
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:41,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like a lot of it also, I think

1786
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:47,680
Speaker 3: was you know, there's been a divergence between how the

1787
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,880
Speaker 3: North Side Asian enclaves like the Dusty Neighborhood and the

1788
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:57,000
Speaker 3: Vietnamese neighborhood have responded to this kind of stuff versus Chinatown,

1789
01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 3: especially on the other big social change that happened during

1790
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 3: the pandemic, which was the twenty twenty Black Lives Matter protests.

1791
01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:10,479
Speaker 3: I think from what I saw, like the reaction on

1792
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:14,960
Speaker 3: the North Side among these Asian enclaves was pretty overall

1793
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 3: supportive of the protests, whereas down in Chinatown as well

1794
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 3: as in McKinley Park, which is a Hispanic majority neighborhood

1795
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 3: but has a pretty significant Asian population, those neighborhoods had

1796
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:31,879
Speaker 3: this really really big like surge of anti black racism

1797
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:34,839
Speaker 3: in response to the protests. Like there were quote unquote

1798
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 3: neighborhood watch groups that got formed.

1799
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:39,639
Speaker 4: And it was just it was bad.

1800
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 3: And you know, the Vietnamese voters on argyle, even though

1801
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:48,680
Speaker 3: they're very like you know, they have Fox News on

1802
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:52,880
Speaker 3: like I said, and they're really anti socialist ante communists,

1803
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:57,200
Speaker 3: there was a state rep. I am probably going to

1804
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,400
Speaker 3: butcher his name, for which I apologize, but I'm pretty

1805
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 3: sure his name is pronounced han when who is Vietnamese himself,

1806
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,760
Speaker 3: and he won the seat last year in twenty twenty two,

1807
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:10,160
Speaker 3: and like he's very progressive. So there has been this

1808
01:39:10,400 --> 01:39:16,479
Speaker 3: very sharp divergence in how the Asian neighborhoods in Chicago

1809
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:19,160
Speaker 3: have responded to some of the social events of the

1810
01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:20,000
Speaker 3: last few years.

1811
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:23,559
Speaker 12: Once again by people, the Great Nation of China has

1812
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:25,120
Speaker 12: followed into social imperialism.

1813
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 3: I think the last thing that really should be talked

1814
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:35,400
Speaker 3: about in the context of Johnson's electoral win, and when

1815
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 3: we come back we can talk about the City Council

1816
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:42,760
Speaker 3: because that's also pretty interesting. Is that something that if

1817
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:44,519
Speaker 3: you want to watch elections, especially if you want to

1818
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 3: watch Chicago elections, something you should understand is that the

1819
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:52,720
Speaker 3: capital m machine in Chicago is pretty much gone now

1820
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:56,439
Speaker 3: and Brandon Johnson's win pretty much seals this. And it's

1821
01:39:56,479 --> 01:39:59,560
Speaker 3: not that the people are gone or that like the

1822
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:06,840
Speaker 3: you know, the logistical operations of the machine are completely dead.

1823
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 3: But the machine has now lost two elections in a row.

1824
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 3: Because as much as Laurie as much as Lauri Lightfoot sucked,

1825
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:18,759
Speaker 3: and she sucked so much. She also was an anti

1826
01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 3: machine candidate, like she was like capital a anti machine

1827
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 3: when she ran. And Brandon Johnson is not anti machine

1828
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:31,560
Speaker 3: in the way that Laurie was, but he definitely was

1829
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:35,040
Speaker 3: not the candidate of like the machine. So like they

1830
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:37,680
Speaker 3: lost two elections in a row. Mike Madigan has now

1831
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:40,519
Speaker 3: been like indicted and he's probably going to prison for

1832
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 3: a very long time.

1833
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 12: You should explain who Mike Madigan is because Okay, if

1834
01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:47,240
Speaker 12: you live in Illinois, like you know who Mike Madigan is.

1835
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:50,600
Speaker 12: If you don't live in Illinois, Mike Madigan, for my

1836
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:53,479
Speaker 12: entire life, for like the lives of people who are

1837
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:55,080
Speaker 12: much older than me, has been like the most the

1838
01:40:55,120 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 12: single most powerful political figure in all of Illinois.

1839
01:40:57,800 --> 01:40:59,759
Speaker 3: Like he runs everything.

1840
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, like he has like an iron grip over everything

1841
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:06,960
Speaker 12: that has happened in this state for like forty years.

1842
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:12,400
Speaker 3: Yes, And he finally got indicted on some federal like

1843
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 3: charges of like I don't even remember what the charges were,

1844
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 3: but it was very like al Capone esque of like, yeah,

1845
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 3: we finally found something to nail you on, so we're

1846
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,960
Speaker 3: going to And so he got indicted last year, and

1847
01:41:23,040 --> 01:41:26,839
Speaker 3: it is actually pretty impressive, Like how quickly his machine

1848
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,920
Speaker 3: fell apart. Yeah, like he just he didn't have an

1849
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:33,680
Speaker 3: air ready to take control. And so it's not that

1850
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 3: like machine politics has gone from Chicago. It's more that

1851
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:39,880
Speaker 3: instead of a machine, there are now going to be

1852
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:43,559
Speaker 3: a bunch of smaller machines, which is going to make

1853
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:47,360
Speaker 3: it easier for like normal everyday people to actually have

1854
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:49,760
Speaker 3: some saying the political process, which is a good thing.

1855
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:52,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, and like the the chocolate machine fucking sucks ass.

1856
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:53,800
Speaker 12: I mean, like we talked about val like I mean,

1857
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 12: Vallas was a machine guy, right, yes, absolutely, and you know,

1858
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:01,160
Speaker 12: and it is like the thing, the the the machine

1859
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:03,520
Speaker 12: has two values and it's corruption and neoliberalism.

1860
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 3: And honestly, like not even neoliberalism so much anymore. It's

1861
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:10,679
Speaker 3: mostly just corruption.

1862
01:42:10,840 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, they they've kind of I would say,

1863
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,040
Speaker 12: I think they've gotten less ideological over the last twenty years.

1864
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:18,880
Speaker 12: M hm, Like well, like I think the last decade

1865
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:23,720
Speaker 12: and a half. But they yeah, they really they really

1866
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:27,320
Speaker 12: fucked it, like Chicago was like the political machine, and

1867
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 12: you know, like I mean like they're in large part

1868
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 12: responsible for the creation of Obama's career and they've parlayed

1869
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:39,720
Speaker 12: that into losing to like the least popular mayor in

1870
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 12: like a generation, and then losing again branded like somehow

1871
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:50,559
Speaker 12: to Brandon Johnson, and it's I don't know, they've they've

1872
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 12: they've failed spectacularly and fuck them, they're awful.

1873
01:42:54,680 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 3: And I yeah, yes, absolutely they Yeah. Fuck these guys.

1874
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:02,560
Speaker 12: They've they've robbed, they've they've rubbed the working class for

1875
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:03,519
Speaker 12: too fucking long.

1876
01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, fuck these guys, good riddance. The world will

1877
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:11,320
Speaker 3: be better when they're dead. Yeah. Do you know what

1878
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:15,960
Speaker 3: else the world would be better than? If you know? Okay,

1879
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 3: that that was that was That was not my that

1880
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 3: was not my best effort. I apologize.

1881
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 12: But the world's question mark. Maybe better place if you

1882
01:43:26,200 --> 01:43:29,840
Speaker 12: buy these products and services question mark. I don't know

1883
01:43:29,920 --> 01:43:31,560
Speaker 12: if I'm legally allowed to say that.

1884
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:37,920
Speaker 3: We'll see. Anyways, here's some bads and we are back.

1885
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:41,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, we should talk about what Johnson actually wants to do. Well,

1886
01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:42,840
Speaker 12: do you want to get into that? Would you want

1887
01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 12: to talk about the city council first?

1888
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:48,000
Speaker 3: I think they actually overlapped pretty well, So like we can,

1889
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 3: let's let's run through what Johnson says he wants to

1890
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:54,600
Speaker 3: do and we can then talk about how much of

1891
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:58,880
Speaker 3: that might happen. So Johnson, like we were talking about,

1892
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:01,360
Speaker 3: is definitely going to be the most progressive mayor in

1893
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 3: Chicago's history in terms of what he campaigned on. At

1894
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:08,920
Speaker 3: least this was a crime election, Like the dominant issue

1895
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 3: was crime, and Johnson did not say the words defund

1896
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 3: the police. In fact, he actually explicitly said that he

1897
01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:21,120
Speaker 3: would not cut the police budget. But aside from like

1898
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 3: those literal words, he very much is in line with

1899
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 3: the progressive priorities of de emphasizing like using people with

1900
01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 3: guns to go through like six weeks of training or whatever.

1901
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 3: So he wants to pass a bill called Treatment Not Trauma,

1902
01:44:40,200 --> 01:44:45,200
Speaker 3: which is replacing cops with mental health responders for nine

1903
01:44:45,240 --> 01:44:47,840
Speaker 3: to one one calls about mental health crises. He wants

1904
01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:51,280
Speaker 3: to pass another bill called the Peacebook Ordinance, which would

1905
01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:55,519
Speaker 3: expand restorative justice and violence intervention like projects and programs

1906
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:58,280
Speaker 3: in the city. And he also wants to pass an

1907
01:44:58,439 --> 01:45:03,000
Speaker 3: ordinance to put somegnificant restrictions on police department raids and

1908
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:07,080
Speaker 3: like the police department's just actual ability to do raids altogether.

1909
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 3: There is a very infamous contract here in Chicago called

1910
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:15,600
Speaker 3: the Shop Spotter Contract, which is this dumb software that

1911
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 3: is supposed to be able to like tell police when

1912
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,720
Speaker 3: a gun goes off, and like, as far as I

1913
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:26,160
Speaker 3: can tell, doesn't And it's just like straight up doesn't work.

1914
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:28,519
Speaker 3: So Johnson wants to get rid of that. He also

1915
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:31,600
Speaker 3: wants to eliminate the Gang Database, which, if you are

1916
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:34,000
Speaker 3: from Chicago you probably know what we're talking about. Is

1917
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 3: this very infamous list of about one hundred and twenty

1918
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:40,479
Speaker 3: thousand people, ninety five percent of whom are either black

1919
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 3: or Latino. And they are on this list called the

1920
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 3: Gang Database, more or less because one day some random

1921
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 3: Chicago police officers decided to put them on the list.

1922
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 3: It's very dumb, it's very racist, it's very blatantly unconstitutional,

1923
01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:56,600
Speaker 3: and hopefully Brandon Johnson is able to get rid of it.

1924
01:45:57,800 --> 01:45:59,240
Speaker 12: Yeah, and these are and these are all things like

1925
01:45:59,320 --> 01:46:02,640
Speaker 12: you know, as much as we can talk about the

1926
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:05,920
Speaker 12: extent to which like is you know, as most as

1927
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:07,160
Speaker 12: we can we can talk about the sort of the

1928
01:46:07,200 --> 01:46:10,280
Speaker 12: complicity of like mental health responders and the police system

1929
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:14,360
Speaker 12: wherever the fuck, Like these things would all like make

1930
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:18,799
Speaker 12: a lot of people's lives better and making the police weaker,

1931
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:22,080
Speaker 12: and you know. I mean, one of the things about

1932
01:46:22,160 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 12: this election, right is that the people who are actually

1933
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 12: affected by crime vote for Johnson.

1934
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:27,240
Speaker 3: The people who are not affected by crime at all

1935
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 3: all voted for Vallice.

1936
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:28,880
Speaker 4: Yep.

1937
01:46:29,120 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 12: And part of the reason for that is that, like, Okay,

1938
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 12: if you're in a place like in Chicago that has

1939
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 12: a bunch of crime, you were dealing with, like you're

1940
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:40,080
Speaker 12: dealing with the crime, you're dealing with a lot of

1941
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:43,120
Speaker 12: people getting shot, which is fucking shit. Then you're also

1942
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:46,680
Speaker 12: dealing with the CPD, who are like function most of

1943
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:51,559
Speaker 12: the time, are functionally a cartel about every like we're

1944
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:54,040
Speaker 12: kind of due for another set of like prosecutions for them,

1945
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:59,000
Speaker 12: Like roughly every like seven or eight years, there's a

1946
01:46:59,080 --> 01:47:01,400
Speaker 12: massive series of IRA by the FBI or like the

1947
01:47:01,479 --> 01:47:03,160
Speaker 12: fence come in and like discover that there's like a

1948
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:05,960
Speaker 12: giant there's a giant artelle operating out of the CPD.

1949
01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:09,160
Speaker 3: We've talked about this discover and discover in air quotes

1950
01:47:09,200 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 3: because everyone knows, oh yeah, everyone knows.

1951
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:14,320
Speaker 12: And then you know, the Chicago police in particular are

1952
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:16,400
Speaker 12: very famous for the Code of Silence, which is that

1953
01:47:16,520 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 12: every single person, if a cop commits a crime, every

1954
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 12: single other cop will cover for them, going right up

1955
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 12: to the like the top of the ladder of the

1956
01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:27,799
Speaker 12: police chiefs and all the way down to like dipshit

1957
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:33,000
Speaker 12: like like beat cop, and you know, and so you know,

1958
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:35,840
Speaker 12: like if you're a person who has to deal with

1959
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:38,720
Speaker 12: these people, and oh, it sucks. It fucking sucks. And

1960
01:47:38,840 --> 01:47:44,600
Speaker 12: like the Chicago is kind of in many ways not

1961
01:47:44,920 --> 01:47:47,800
Speaker 12: the ground zero, but like a ground zero for a

1962
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 12: phenomenon where you have these poor neighborhoods of color. Who

1963
01:47:52,800 --> 01:47:54,559
Speaker 12: you know, the people who live in these neighborhoods, they

1964
01:47:54,560 --> 01:47:58,479
Speaker 12: are simultaneously over policed and under police because the police

1965
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:01,040
Speaker 12: don't bother to show up half the time when like

1966
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:03,599
Speaker 12: they're theoretically needed, right like someone gets shot, you call

1967
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:05,680
Speaker 12: nine one one, and the cops don't bother showing up

1968
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 12: for hours if they bother showing up at all. And

1969
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:11,680
Speaker 12: at the same time, when they do show up that

1970
01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:17,320
Speaker 12: you often cause more problems than they solve. Like Chicago

1971
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 12: has really truly horrific clearance rates of violent crime. And

1972
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:27,200
Speaker 12: this is mostly because CPD just insists on maintaining this

1973
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:30,519
Speaker 12: really awful balance. You know, if you do believe in police,

1974
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:32,960
Speaker 12: you want there to be a pretty healthy balance between

1975
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 12: beat cops and detectives. Right.

1976
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:40,240
Speaker 3: Well, this Chicago Police Department, there almost are no detectives left,

1977
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 3: Like it's almost all beat cops, and so there's not

1978
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:49,400
Speaker 3: many resources that go into actually investigating crimes that can't

1979
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:52,240
Speaker 3: be solved by someone just walking around or driving around

1980
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:55,720
Speaker 3: in a patrol car. So these neighborhoods, like you know,

1981
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:58,120
Speaker 3: you go down to the South Side or the West Side,

1982
01:48:58,600 --> 01:49:00,960
Speaker 3: a lot of these A lot of the residents in

1983
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:03,720
Speaker 3: these neighborhoods would tell you, because they're not leftists, right,

1984
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 3: so they would tell you that they want more police officers,

1985
01:49:08,160 --> 01:49:11,479
Speaker 3: but they don't want more beat cops necessarily, like they

1986
01:49:11,560 --> 01:49:14,439
Speaker 3: want more detectives, and they want officers who are actually

1987
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:17,439
Speaker 3: going to care about them as people. Unfortunately, the Chicago

1988
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 3: Police Department is made up of fascists. So like, ugh,

1989
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 3: you know, low chances on that front. But it's like

1990
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 3: that is the problem these neighborhoods are facing, is that

1991
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,040
Speaker 3: like the police don't bother to care, and when they

1992
01:49:31,160 --> 01:49:33,639
Speaker 3: bother to show up, they often make things worse.

1993
01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:37,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I think, you know, but I think everything

1994
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:38,960
Speaker 12: that's sort of important here, right is like you get

1995
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 12: a lot of you know, like it's very easy for

1996
01:49:41,400 --> 01:49:43,760
Speaker 12: people to be like, oh hey, look, actually these people

1997
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:44,519
Speaker 12: want more police.

1998
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:47,680
Speaker 3: But it's like, you know, when you look at what

1999
01:49:49,439 --> 01:49:50,799
Speaker 3: there was a somebody taken.

2000
01:49:50,680 --> 01:49:54,120
Speaker 12: Right before the election that was talking about voters like

2001
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:56,600
Speaker 12: what their preference is on like what their sort of

2002
01:49:56,680 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 12: opinions on crime are. Oh yeah, yeah, I know, yeah

2003
01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:03,080
Speaker 12: you're talking about I think it was like only eighteen

2004
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 12: percent of the people who said that crime was important

2005
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:08,280
Speaker 12: to them one in war cops and almost everyone. We know.

2006
01:50:08,439 --> 01:50:10,479
Speaker 12: Part of part of it was like they like one

2007
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:12,360
Speaker 12: of their big consernives was legal guns. And then the

2008
01:50:12,400 --> 01:50:15,120
Speaker 12: other big conserve was just like the fact that there's

2009
01:50:15,640 --> 01:50:18,479
Speaker 12: these places are really poor and there's no opportunities for.

2010
01:50:18,520 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 3: People because it's like there's there there aren't economic opportunities.

2011
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:26,960
Speaker 3: There are so many guns just on, you know, just

2012
01:50:27,120 --> 01:50:33,120
Speaker 3: lying around in these communities, and obviously that's a problem

2013
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:37,040
Speaker 3: throughout the country, but it's especially bad in low income

2014
01:50:37,080 --> 01:50:40,080
Speaker 3: neighborhoods in Chicago. And the other thing was mental health,

2015
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:42,680
Speaker 3: like you know, and that's one of the other things

2016
01:50:42,720 --> 01:50:44,639
Speaker 3: that Johnson wants to do is he wants to reopen

2017
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:47,000
Speaker 3: the mental health clinics that got closed down by rom

2018
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 3: or rom Emmanuel, who is a previous mayor of Chicago,

2019
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 3: who is currently being inflicted upon the people of Japan

2020
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:59,080
Speaker 3: as the US ambassador, and you know they deserve it.

2021
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 12: This is this is this is what you get for

2022
01:51:00,320 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 12: siding with the CIA, You fucking fucking dipshits. Man. Like,

2023
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:05,720
Speaker 12: if label Democratic Party didn't want to have to get

2024
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:08,120
Speaker 12: to deal with Rob Emanuel, they shouldn't have taken all

2025
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:08,920
Speaker 12: that CIA money.

2026
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:14,479
Speaker 3: But yeah, like Johnson wants to you know, reopen these

2027
01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:17,439
Speaker 3: mental health clinics. He wants to increase funding for public schools,

2028
01:51:17,479 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 3: which have very much not gotten the funding that they

2029
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:22,840
Speaker 3: need in Chicago for the past several decades at this point.

2030
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:28,800
Speaker 3: He also wants to expand public transportation in Chicago. Like

2031
01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:32,040
Speaker 3: there are a lot of proposals flying around for expanding

2032
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:37,040
Speaker 3: the train lines and bus lines and bike rid There

2033
01:51:37,080 --> 01:51:40,240
Speaker 3: are also, as me and I were talking about before

2034
01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:42,559
Speaker 3: we started recording, there are a lot of lead pipes

2035
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:47,960
Speaker 3: like water pipes in Chicago. Yes, and and like Chicago

2036
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:51,839
Speaker 3: is like supposed to be replacing them, it's proceeding very slowly.

2037
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:55,720
Speaker 3: Johnson wants to speed that up. There's like just very

2038
01:51:55,880 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 3: genuinely a lot of research on the books directly linking

2039
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:03,200
Speaker 3: lead poison into a lot of social problems, and so

2040
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 3: it's very much one of these things where it's like,

2041
01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:08,280
Speaker 3: you know, if you replace the lead pipes, crime will

2042
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:08,880
Speaker 3: go down.

2043
01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:12,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about the

2044
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:16,040
Speaker 12: infrastructure stuff for a second, because like I okay, in

2045
01:52:16,120 --> 01:52:19,800
Speaker 12: the in the last three years, Chicago's public transit system

2046
01:52:19,880 --> 01:52:21,439
Speaker 12: has just been fucking imploding.

2047
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:23,720
Speaker 3: Oh there are it's so bad.

2048
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:25,760
Speaker 12: There are. There are reasons for this, some of which

2049
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:27,439
Speaker 12: I can talk about, some of which I can't. Like,

2050
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:29,840
Speaker 12: partially was depend Partially there's the pandemic and that like

2051
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:31,920
Speaker 12: a bunch of the people who supposedly running the system

2052
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 12: fucking died because you know, they got forced to work

2053
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:38,879
Speaker 12: during the pandemic. But like you know, you'll like trains

2054
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:41,320
Speaker 12: just won't show up. There are buses that are basically

2055
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:46,599
Speaker 12: unusable because it's it's like you're basically sitting there trying

2056
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:48,720
Speaker 12: to roll double ones as to whether the bus will

2057
01:52:48,760 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 12: fucking show up at all. The wait times are enormous,

2058
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:56,240
Speaker 12: Like it's a real shit show, and like it's it's

2059
01:52:56,439 --> 01:52:59,680
Speaker 12: substantively way worse than it was when I was in

2060
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:04,479
Speaker 12: this and like fifteen nineteen. Yeah, it's really really bad

2061
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:07,440
Speaker 12: and it's it's atrocious.

2062
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:07,880
Speaker 7: Yes.

2063
01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:10,519
Speaker 3: The other factor that's to be talked about there is that, like,

2064
01:53:10,640 --> 01:53:13,600
Speaker 3: so the Chicago public transit system is not free like

2065
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 3: most systems, Like it is funded by writer fairs. Like

2066
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 3: it's very Yeah, it costs a lot to get on Comparatively,

2067
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:23,439
Speaker 3: it costs a lot to get on the train, are

2068
01:53:23,439 --> 01:53:28,519
Speaker 3: going on a bus. And one of the kind of

2069
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:34,040
Speaker 3: like self reinforcing cycles has been playing out the last

2070
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:37,040
Speaker 3: few years is that Chicago also has a really bad

2071
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 3: homelessness problem. And this is directly linked to the fact

2072
01:53:40,360 --> 01:53:42,639
Speaker 3: that the city just does not want to give people housing.

2073
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:46,040
Speaker 3: And so what ends up happening is that a lot

2074
01:53:46,120 --> 01:53:51,320
Speaker 3: of Chicago's homeless residents, especially in the colder winter months,

2075
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:54,200
Speaker 3: they end up on the trains, especially the two lines

2076
01:53:54,240 --> 01:53:58,000
Speaker 3: that run twenty four hours a day. And you know,

2077
01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:00,840
Speaker 3: these are people who are really you know, they're living

2078
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:04,040
Speaker 3: in really really terrible conditions, Like they don't have regular

2079
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:07,599
Speaker 3: access to clean food and water, let alone like clean

2080
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:11,440
Speaker 3: access to like like regular access to like hygienic facilities.

2081
01:54:12,280 --> 01:54:17,320
Speaker 3: And so ridership really plummeted on the lines where homeless

2082
01:54:17,479 --> 01:54:22,880
Speaker 3: people started to like just go on in order to

2083
01:54:22,960 --> 01:54:27,080
Speaker 3: stay warm, and so you get the hit because rider

2084
01:54:27,200 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 3: fares are now down because people don't want to deal

2085
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 3: with being on the same train line as homeless people

2086
01:54:34,360 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 3: who you know, frankly just don't smell that good or

2087
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:42,520
Speaker 3: have mental health problems. And the city doesn't want to

2088
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:45,400
Speaker 3: give these homeless people housing, let alone like even like

2089
01:54:45,520 --> 01:54:49,360
Speaker 3: smaller things like like access to bathing facilities or healthcare

2090
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:53,120
Speaker 3: or anything like that. And so it becomes a self

2091
01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 3: reinforcement cycle of now fares are down, so there's less investment,

2092
01:54:56,320 --> 01:54:59,800
Speaker 3: so more people abandon the system, and it is the

2093
01:54:59,800 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 3: same were like this will this would get solved if

2094
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 3: Chicago committed to giving homeless people housing, but that's just

2095
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:11,600
Speaker 3: not where the city has unfortunately been.

2096
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:14,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I mean, you know, and what what's happening

2097
01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 12: instead is like, you know, increasing anti homeless architecture. Like

2098
01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:23,360
Speaker 12: Chicago train stations fucking suck ass because they're all designs

2099
01:55:23,360 --> 01:55:25,160
Speaker 12: so that's impossible to sit on anything.

2100
01:55:25,600 --> 01:55:27,760
Speaker 3: Oh my god, there are only two benches in each station.

2101
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:31,840
Speaker 12: It sucks some man, these stations like it's so bad,

2102
01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 12: like it's just awful. Like one of the things that

2103
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:37,080
Speaker 12: Chicago has is they have these, like you know, it

2104
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:38,920
Speaker 12: gets really really culture in the winter, so they have

2105
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:40,960
Speaker 12: these like warming stations so that when it's like fucking

2106
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:43,720
Speaker 12: negative twenty out, you can be in the warming things,

2107
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,360
Speaker 12: but there's no They intentionally make it so there's no

2108
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:49,000
Speaker 12: benches in them, so you can't sit in them. Yeah,

2109
01:55:49,120 --> 01:55:52,440
Speaker 12: it sucks, like it's it's you know, it's they have

2110
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:55,800
Speaker 12: this really just like the hatred of homeless people is

2111
01:55:56,280 --> 01:56:00,920
Speaker 12: turned basically into a war against all society waged the city,

2112
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:03,840
Speaker 12: and yes, it's atrocious.

2113
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:08,240
Speaker 3: The good news is that Brandon Johnson wants to pass

2114
01:56:08,280 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 3: an ordinance called Bring Chicago Home, which would put a

2115
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:16,880
Speaker 3: tax on property transfers for like I think it's like

2116
01:56:16,920 --> 01:56:21,040
Speaker 3: homes that are worth over a million dollars that and

2117
01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:25,200
Speaker 3: the money from that tax would go entirely to funding

2118
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 3: programs for the city's homeless residents all the way up

2119
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:32,840
Speaker 3: to and including permanent shelter or like permanent housing solutions.

2120
01:56:33,120 --> 01:56:35,320
Speaker 3: So you know, you know, fingers crossed on that one,

2121
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:40,320
Speaker 3: because that, I think, along with the public safety measures,

2122
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:43,040
Speaker 3: is really the thing that the city needs the most.

2123
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:49,080
Speaker 3: And Johnson also on the housing front, he wants to

2124
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 3: liberalize zoning laws, which I know is a very big

2125
01:56:52,240 --> 01:56:54,640
Speaker 3: debate on the left at the moment about, you know,

2126
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 3: how we go about approaching building more housing. Johnson very

2127
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,680
Speaker 3: much is on like the probe development end of things.

2128
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:04,600
Speaker 3: He wants to liberalize zoning laws and make it so

2129
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:08,680
Speaker 3: that it's easier to build multi family housing and previously

2130
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:13,600
Speaker 3: like single family housing zoned areas. He does also want

2131
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:16,560
Speaker 3: to pass just cause for eviction, so like your landlord

2132
01:57:16,600 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 3: would not be able to throw you out just because,

2133
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 3: which is a good thing. Chicago's landlords are really shit.

2134
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:27,360
Speaker 3: They're terrible. I have seen across the born terrible.

2135
01:57:27,640 --> 01:57:31,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, like I God, like, I have seen ship doing

2136
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:37,680
Speaker 12: tenant organizing that is like like things that make me

2137
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:41,280
Speaker 12: like have to control my reflex to vomit just remembering them,

2138
01:57:42,760 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 12: yes truly.

2139
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:49,120
Speaker 3: But yeah. The other thing, and that's something that will

2140
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:52,400
Speaker 3: matter to you if you are living in Chicago very much,

2141
01:57:52,520 --> 01:57:57,040
Speaker 3: is that Johnson wants to cap property taxes. So one

2142
01:57:57,080 --> 01:57:59,440
Speaker 3: of the things that has been driving a lot of

2143
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 3: reactuctionary politics in Chicago is that property taxes here are

2144
01:58:03,120 --> 01:58:07,000
Speaker 3: linked to inflation, which means that if you are a

2145
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 3: property owner in Chicago in the last couple of years,

2146
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 3: your property taxes went up by like fifteen plus percent,

2147
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:20,520
Speaker 3: which understandably made a lot of people mad because you know,

2148
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:22,800
Speaker 3: if your taxes go up by that much that fast,

2149
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:24,520
Speaker 3: you at least wanted to be going to do something

2150
01:58:24,600 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 3: good and under our previous well soon to be previous

2151
01:58:27,760 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 3: mayor Lord Lightfoot, that absolutely was not happening. Yeah, cop

2152
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:38,560
Speaker 3: over time or some shit like Yes, So Johnson is

2153
01:58:39,120 --> 01:58:44,400
Speaker 3: he campaigned on decoupling property taxes from inflation so they

2154
01:58:44,440 --> 01:58:48,640
Speaker 3: would no longer just automatically go up, which would bring

2155
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,600
Speaker 3: a lot of financial relief to a lot of Chicago families.

2156
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:55,600
Speaker 3: And also he would basically like wants to pass a

2157
01:58:55,680 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 3: lot of taxes focused on wealthier residents as well as

2158
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:02,120
Speaker 3: big businesses to help fund some of the programs which

2159
01:59:02,280 --> 01:59:04,960
Speaker 3: brings us to the City Council. And how much of

2160
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:07,600
Speaker 3: a chance he hasn't getting this past, which is better

2161
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:11,880
Speaker 3: than you might think if you are familiar with Chicago politics.

2162
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:17,360
Speaker 3: Something that surprises people who don't live in the city

2163
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:22,000
Speaker 3: is that Chicago is not run by progressives. There has

2164
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:26,200
Speaker 3: actually pretty much never been a progressive majority on the

2165
01:59:26,240 --> 01:59:30,000
Speaker 3: City Council, and there isn't there will not be a

2166
01:59:30,080 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 3: progressive majority on the new one. That comes in with Johnson.

2167
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:36,160
Speaker 3: He is going to be presiding over a minority government

2168
01:59:36,280 --> 01:59:38,520
Speaker 3: in parliamentary terms, which I think we should use more

2169
01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 3: often because I'm a nerd and I find it fun.

2170
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 3: But basically, there are fifty members of the Chicago City Council.

2171
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:50,600
Speaker 3: They are called aldermen because we insist on having a

2172
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:53,320
Speaker 3: city council that is the size of a state legislature here,

2173
01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:58,000
Speaker 3: and about twenty two of them are going to be

2174
01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:00,760
Speaker 3: aligned with Johnson mo less, so he's going to be

2175
02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:03,640
Speaker 3: three votes short on a lot of things. At least

2176
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:06,760
Speaker 3: from the beginning. He is going to be negotiating with

2177
02:00:07,200 --> 02:00:11,120
Speaker 3: the black political establishment here in Chicago, which is one

2178
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,800
Speaker 3: of the smaller machines that is left in the aftermath

2179
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:17,520
Speaker 3: of Madigan's indictment. And we are going to see how

2180
02:00:17,560 --> 02:00:21,800
Speaker 3: this goes. Some of those black aldermen are friendlier to

2181
02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:25,000
Speaker 3: Johnson from the get go, partially because of ideology and

2182
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:27,240
Speaker 3: partially because a lot of them just like personally know

2183
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:31,360
Speaker 3: him and like him. Some of them are very against

2184
02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:35,240
Speaker 3: him for similar reasons, like they either ideologically don't line

2185
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:37,640
Speaker 3: up or they just dislike him on a personal basis.

2186
02:00:38,640 --> 02:00:40,280
Speaker 12: Like we should talk, we should say a little bit

2187
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:45,800
Speaker 12: about Johnson's not like some kind of like political political outsider.

2188
02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:48,400
Speaker 3: No, He's been around. He's kind of.

2189
02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:53,400
Speaker 12: He has like interesting relations with the old sort of

2190
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,800
Speaker 12: like prep Winkle like labor machine.

2191
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:03,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's definitely like Johnson is definitely part of a machine.

2192
02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:08,200
Speaker 3: His relationship with like the old machine was very bad,

2193
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:10,800
Speaker 3: but he is definitely part of a machine that is

2194
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:14,840
Speaker 3: tied up and like the institutional labor unions that have

2195
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:18,480
Speaker 3: a lot of sway and democratic politics here, including the

2196
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:21,680
Speaker 3: Chicago Teachers Union, which, like you know, Vallas's whole stick

2197
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:23,880
Speaker 3: during the run off was that Johnson would be a

2198
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 3: stooge for the teachers Union, and the teachers Union really

2199
02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:33,000
Speaker 3: just like the teacher This is actually kind of funny

2200
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:35,960
Speaker 3: because like the Teachers' Union really just swept the board here,

2201
02:01:36,200 --> 02:01:38,360
Speaker 3: not just with Johnson, but with like a lot of

2202
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 3: the city council races where they weighed in. So if

2203
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:47,080
Speaker 3: you are a member of the Chicago Teachers Union who

2204
02:01:47,120 --> 02:01:50,760
Speaker 3: does not approve of their leadership, buckle up, because the

2205
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:53,920
Speaker 3: next several years they are going they are almost certainly

2206
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 3: going balls to the wall of like, well, if we

2207
02:01:55,720 --> 02:01:57,080
Speaker 3: can get a mayor, we can get a lot of

2208
02:01:57,120 --> 02:01:57,800
Speaker 3: other people too.

2209
02:01:58,280 --> 02:02:01,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, and we should mention here that so a lot

2210
02:02:02,040 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 12: of the other unions in Chicago like are kind of

2211
02:02:05,960 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 12: ah yeah, they range an ad to shit. Chicago Teachers'

2212
02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:13,680
Speaker 12: Union got taken over by this group called Core, who

2213
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 12: are like a sort of rank and file like left

2214
02:02:18,680 --> 02:02:22,000
Speaker 12: e Like I think I think a good way to

2215
02:02:22,120 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 12: understand Core is that like with the caveat that, like

2216
02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:30,640
Speaker 12: teachers in Chicago really don't make that much money in

2217
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:33,120
Speaker 12: the grand scheme of things, so like income wise, this

2218
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:35,120
Speaker 12: is not line up. But these people are very much

2219
02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:41,480
Speaker 12: like kind of resistance liberals on steroids. Like they're not

2220
02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:44,840
Speaker 12: going to be like frontliners and a socialist revolutionary time soon,

2221
02:02:45,000 --> 02:02:48,560
Speaker 12: but like they are definitely on the far left of

2222
02:02:48,640 --> 02:02:50,040
Speaker 12: the Democratic Party coalition.

2223
02:02:50,960 --> 02:02:52,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and we should like they're not like.

2224
02:02:54,320 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 12: Like they are. They are like I don't know, I

2225
02:03:00,160 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 12: have complicated feelings on them from the sort of anegicates perspective.

2226
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 12: They're like they're they're as good of a thing of

2227
02:03:09,320 --> 02:03:13,640
Speaker 12: like union people as like you currently have. Again, we've

2228
02:03:13,640 --> 02:03:16,720
Speaker 12: talked about this, this could change within and you very quickly.

2229
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:19,680
Speaker 12: But yeah, they've they've been responsible for pushing a lot

2230
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:22,480
Speaker 12: of things that are very good. Yes, and they've they've

2231
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:25,640
Speaker 12: they've turned the union into like I mean, well it's okay,

2232
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:27,200
Speaker 12: so like one thing to talk about. Like they actually

2233
02:03:27,240 --> 02:03:28,560
Speaker 12: do go on strike, which is the thing that a

2234
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:29,960
Speaker 12: lot of unions struck don't like.

2235
02:03:30,160 --> 02:03:30,920
Speaker 3: They go on strike.

2236
02:03:31,120 --> 02:03:33,400
Speaker 12: They do. They do political things that are usually pretty good.

2237
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:38,640
Speaker 12: And they are an actual sort of like they're an

2238
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:40,840
Speaker 12: actual class base for things getting better.

2239
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 3: Yes they are. The Chicago Teachers Union is definitely like

2240
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:49,280
Speaker 3: a net good force in city politics and something that also,

2241
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:53,680
Speaker 3: like CTU, gets a lot of negative attention even on

2242
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:56,440
Speaker 3: a national level. And so something that surprises people who

2243
02:03:56,480 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 3: don't live in Chicago, if they know about the Teachers

2244
02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:01,320
Speaker 3: Union at all, is that the CTU is actually very

2245
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:05,800
Speaker 3: popular among the cities or residents like most like people

2246
02:04:06,120 --> 02:04:08,880
Speaker 3: love the Chicago Teachers Union. Like when the teachers last

2247
02:04:08,920 --> 02:04:14,240
Speaker 3: one on strike, the public was over overwhelmingly on their side,

2248
02:04:14,600 --> 02:04:18,480
Speaker 3: which is why they won. And c TOU also like

2249
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:23,480
Speaker 3: their twenty nineteen strike against Lory Liefoot was very much

2250
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:26,440
Speaker 3: like the inspiration that touched off a lot of the

2251
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:30,360
Speaker 3: teacher strikes that happened in red states over the next

2252
02:04:30,400 --> 02:04:33,960
Speaker 3: several months, Like they very much kind of led the

2253
02:04:34,040 --> 02:04:37,560
Speaker 3: way in some in some areas, like so they are

2254
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:44,000
Speaker 3: like like Mia, I have complicated feelings about the CTU,

2255
02:04:44,480 --> 02:04:48,600
Speaker 3: but overall they're a good thing for city politics and

2256
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:50,640
Speaker 3: like they make Chicago a more progressive place.

2257
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:52,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, and this has been true for like a while too,

2258
02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:55,760
Speaker 12: like like to the extent that when like I think

2259
02:04:56,280 --> 02:04:59,360
Speaker 12: back in twenty twelve, Core was like, like, oh sweet,

2260
02:04:59,360 --> 02:05:01,160
Speaker 12: what did you But back back when Court sort of

2261
02:05:01,200 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 12: first taking home was first doing their strikes, like even

2262
02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:05,600
Speaker 12: the CTU people were surprised about the extent to which

2263
02:05:05,760 --> 02:05:08,080
Speaker 12: like when they went out, like the streets turned into

2264
02:05:08,120 --> 02:05:10,920
Speaker 12: a party, Like people actually really do like them.

2265
02:05:11,160 --> 02:05:14,240
Speaker 3: Like I mean the cops don't but like fuck them, Like.

2266
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:17,880
Speaker 5: People know the.

2267
02:05:17,920 --> 02:05:20,320
Speaker 3: Cops don't like them, and to see to use credit,

2268
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 3: most Chicago teachers dislike the cops.

2269
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:25,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, they've they've been they've been trying to get cops

2270
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:28,480
Speaker 12: out of schools, which is good because yes, cops and

2271
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:32,640
Speaker 12: schools are especially in Chicago, it's really bad.

2272
02:05:34,480 --> 02:05:36,440
Speaker 3: The last thing I think we should mention about the

2273
02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:38,160
Speaker 3: City Council before we move on to some of the

2274
02:05:38,240 --> 02:05:42,520
Speaker 3: other elections we need to talk about is one of

2275
02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:45,160
Speaker 3: the things that gets criticized about the left as an

2276
02:05:45,200 --> 02:05:48,240
Speaker 3: electoral force in places like New York or Los Angeles,

2277
02:05:48,400 --> 02:05:52,720
Speaker 3: especially those two places, is that's very dominated by white people.

2278
02:05:53,920 --> 02:05:57,520
Speaker 3: And I do want to provide the context for those

2279
02:05:57,960 --> 02:05:59,760
Speaker 3: of you who are not from the Chicago area, Like,

2280
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:04,600
Speaker 3: that's not true. In Chicago. The progressive movement and the left,

2281
02:06:04,960 --> 02:06:07,720
Speaker 3: like the leftist movement, on an electoral level in Chicago

2282
02:06:08,040 --> 02:06:11,200
Speaker 3: is very much driven by people of color. And you

2283
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:15,480
Speaker 3: saw this in the City Council election results. Almost every

2284
02:06:15,720 --> 02:06:19,400
Speaker 3: single seat that progressives flipped on the City Council was

2285
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:24,440
Speaker 3: in a black or brown ward, and even the two wards,

2286
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:27,480
Speaker 3: like the two white majority wards where they flip seats,

2287
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 3: the new aldermen or Alder women in both cases are

2288
02:06:31,680 --> 02:06:37,560
Speaker 3: people of color. So, like, this is just like context

2289
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:39,160
Speaker 3: for those of you who are not from Chicago. This

2290
02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:42,040
Speaker 3: is not a case of like white leftist gone wild.

2291
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 3: Like this very much is a rainbow coalition, not just

2292
02:06:45,920 --> 02:06:48,440
Speaker 3: in the sense that Brandon Johnson won the election off

2293
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:51,120
Speaker 3: of rainbow coalition, but in the sense of the electoral

2294
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:55,839
Speaker 3: left in Chicago is very very much a rainbow coalition

2295
02:06:56,200 --> 02:06:58,480
Speaker 3: and has been very effective because of that.

2296
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:02,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, and it's very funny too, because you see people

2297
02:07:02,760 --> 02:07:05,600
Speaker 12: like those sort of right wiggers in Chicago, like constantly

2298
02:07:05,680 --> 02:07:07,960
Speaker 12: screening about like Lake Front liberals, and you look at

2299
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:12,840
Speaker 12: like the actual base of like the policy shit, it's like, okay,

2300
02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:15,840
Speaker 12: like this is this is this is simply not what

2301
02:07:15,960 --> 02:07:17,000
Speaker 12: was actually happening here.

2302
02:07:17,720 --> 02:07:24,080
Speaker 3: Yes, the honest like the thing about like race and

2303
02:07:24,160 --> 02:07:26,920
Speaker 3: its relationship with progressive politics in Chicago is that the

2304
02:07:26,960 --> 02:07:31,000
Speaker 3: most progressive neighborhoods Chicago, based on their voting patterns, are

2305
02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:36,680
Speaker 3: almost always the most racially integrated. And that's not to

2306
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:40,440
Speaker 3: say that like all of the racially integrated neighborhoods are progressive,

2307
02:07:40,560 --> 02:07:44,480
Speaker 3: because that's not true. There are some pretty integrated neighborhoods

2308
02:07:44,480 --> 02:07:47,240
Speaker 3: on the Southwest Side that are like very conservative because

2309
02:07:47,280 --> 02:07:53,360
Speaker 3: a bunch of cops live there. But most of the

2310
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 3: racially integrated neighborhoods of Chicago are also the most progressive neighborhoods,

2311
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:03,400
Speaker 3: and that like really just flies in the face of

2312
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:07,960
Speaker 3: the whole like white lake Front liberal narrative and is

2313
02:08:08,360 --> 02:08:09,680
Speaker 3: something to pay more attention to.

2314
02:08:10,800 --> 02:08:14,880
Speaker 12: Okay, again, it cannot be emphasized enough. Brandon Johnson, the

2315
02:08:14,960 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 12: progressive candidate is black. He's running against a white guy.

2316
02:08:18,560 --> 02:08:21,760
Speaker 12: There was a very large attempt to paint like Brandon

2317
02:08:21,840 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 12: Johnson is like an out of touch, like white liberal,

2318
02:08:27,600 --> 02:08:31,160
Speaker 12: which is really funny. Yeah, I think like they just

2319
02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:33,240
Speaker 12: have I don't know. I mean, it's just the sort

2320
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:38,880
Speaker 12: of like ideological bankruptcy of like like the sort of

2321
02:08:39,000 --> 02:08:43,000
Speaker 12: like capitalist establishment is like they have nothing right they're

2322
02:08:43,080 --> 02:08:45,000
Speaker 12: they're like the only thing they have left is like

2323
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:46,400
Speaker 12: calling a black guy white.

2324
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 3: It's just like shut the fuck up, like he believes

2325
02:08:50,440 --> 02:08:55,000
Speaker 3: the shit anymore. Like And on that note, it might

2326
02:08:55,080 --> 02:08:56,160
Speaker 3: be time for some ads.

2327
02:08:56,680 --> 02:09:01,280
Speaker 12: Yeah we are, we are back from our I hope

2328
02:09:01,320 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 12: you have enjoyed the destruction of the entire world.

2329
02:09:04,960 --> 02:09:05,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so there.

2330
02:09:05,840 --> 02:09:07,960
Speaker 12: We have talked about Chicago for a long time because

2331
02:09:07,960 --> 02:09:10,600
Speaker 12: you're both fum Chicago. It's very funny and it's very interesting.

2332
02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:14,760
Speaker 12: But oh actually, okay, I'm realizing this. There's one more

2333
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:16,440
Speaker 12: thing I do. The two more things I do specifically

2334
02:09:16,440 --> 02:09:18,360
Speaker 12: want to mention about Brandon Johnson than I forgot earlier.

2335
02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:20,160
Speaker 3: One is that he.

2336
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:26,120
Speaker 12: You know, it's genuinely unclear to me whether this is

2337
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:29,600
Speaker 12: a real ideological belief he has or whether this is

2338
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:31,440
Speaker 12: the thing that he said to not get called Natie

2339
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:34,600
Speaker 12: semi because it was electorally expedient, but he released a

2340
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:38,640
Speaker 12: really really shitty statement on like what got investment and

2341
02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:39,920
Speaker 12: sanctions of Israel.

2342
02:09:40,280 --> 02:09:45,600
Speaker 3: That was like Herbert, Oh, yeah, it was terrible.

2343
02:09:45,680 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 12: It was really terrible.

2344
02:09:46,640 --> 02:09:50,800
Speaker 3: But Like, based on what I saw from the aftermath

2345
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 3: of that, I'm inclined to believe that this was more

2346
02:09:54,800 --> 02:09:57,920
Speaker 3: something he was told to say. And the reason for

2347
02:09:58,040 --> 02:10:01,480
Speaker 3: that is because the reaction that got with the crowd

2348
02:10:01,560 --> 02:10:03,040
Speaker 3: he was in front of was like he was speaking

2349
02:10:03,160 --> 02:10:07,680
Speaker 3: with a Jewish organization. Like the reaction was very like okay, dude,

2350
02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:11,480
Speaker 3: but that's not what we asked you about. Like it

2351
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:14,440
Speaker 3: was a response to a question about like, oh, you know,

2352
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:18,600
Speaker 3: how do you handle anti Semitism? And I think there

2353
02:10:18,640 --> 02:10:21,680
Speaker 3: are just unfortunately a lot of really dipshit consultants in

2354
02:10:21,720 --> 02:10:24,400
Speaker 3: the Democratic Party who hear the words anti Semitism and

2355
02:10:24,600 --> 02:10:28,000
Speaker 3: think you have to talk about Israel, which is really

2356
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:33,720
Speaker 3: truly an ironically anti semitic of them to think, like, yeah,

2357
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:37,120
Speaker 3: I think he was probably told to say that I'm

2358
02:10:37,160 --> 02:10:39,440
Speaker 3: not going to go out on a limon. I guess

2359
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:42,960
Speaker 3: what his actual beliefs on Israel Houstine are, but I'm

2360
02:10:43,000 --> 02:10:45,640
Speaker 3: pretty confident that that was his consultants being dumb.

2361
02:10:46,400 --> 02:10:48,959
Speaker 12: Yeah, but like I like the but the actual consequich

2362
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 12: is like he was equitting, like he was quitting the

2363
02:10:51,480 --> 02:10:57,240
Speaker 12: SNETI Semitism. He like, go, you should try to go

2364
02:10:57,440 --> 02:11:01,840
Speaker 12: find the clip somewhere because it's genuine, winey, bizarre and shit.

2365
02:11:03,160 --> 02:11:05,120
Speaker 12: And this is this is the part of the episode

2366
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:09,640
Speaker 12: where I want to remind people that like when when

2367
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:12,920
Speaker 12: when these kinds of people get into power, it is

2368
02:11:13,120 --> 02:11:15,840
Speaker 12: not as good as people think it's going to be.

2369
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:16,640
Speaker 3: Like another thing.

2370
02:11:16,720 --> 02:11:19,360
Speaker 12: He very like he almost immediately like right after he

2371
02:11:19,400 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 12: got elected, started trying to convince Biden to have the

2372
02:11:22,320 --> 02:11:25,760
Speaker 12: Democratic National Convention in Chicago, which would be a fucking

2373
02:11:26,080 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 12: shit show. Yeah, this is me from the future here.

2374
02:11:29,440 --> 02:11:32,440
Speaker 12: Two days after we recorded this, the Democratic Party announced

2375
02:11:32,440 --> 02:11:35,400
Speaker 12: that the twenty twenty four Democratic National Convention will indeed

2376
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:40,360
Speaker 12: be held in Chicago. So yeah, it's gonna suck. That

2377
02:11:40,840 --> 02:11:44,120
Speaker 12: effort predates him, like that's in the world. Like he

2378
02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:46,680
Speaker 12: definitely immediately came out and said like, yes, I'm in

2379
02:11:46,720 --> 02:11:49,760
Speaker 12: support of this, yeah, which is like some people don't

2380
02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:52,880
Speaker 12: understand why. Okay, So, like the thing that happens when

2381
02:11:52,960 --> 02:11:55,000
Speaker 12: when when national convention comes to your city is that

2382
02:11:55,080 --> 02:11:58,160
Speaker 12: your city is occupied by the cops and then like

2383
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:00,680
Speaker 12: wherever the convention is happening based we turned into a

2384
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:02,360
Speaker 12: war zone because anyone who comes out to trying to

2385
02:12:02,360 --> 02:12:04,520
Speaker 12: protest them just gets like the ship beaten out of them.

2386
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:07,840
Speaker 3: Yes, and there's also usually a lot of anti homeless

2387
02:12:07,960 --> 02:12:12,160
Speaker 3: policies they get rolled down in advance. We actually, we

2388
02:12:12,160 --> 02:12:14,680
Speaker 3: would would this is It's not as.

2389
02:12:16,240 --> 02:12:18,200
Speaker 12: Bad as the stuff we talked about with Lula in

2390
02:12:18,280 --> 02:12:21,600
Speaker 12: terms of the World Cup, but it's a similar kind

2391
02:12:21,680 --> 02:12:25,080
Speaker 12: of thing that you get with these kinds of candidates

2392
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:27,680
Speaker 12: where they do these sort of like giant they do

2393
02:12:27,720 --> 02:12:31,240
Speaker 12: these sort of like mega project developmentalism shit because they

2394
02:12:31,320 --> 02:12:34,120
Speaker 12: want the status that comes from it, and the result

2395
02:12:34,240 --> 02:12:37,400
Speaker 12: is stuff that sucks and that you know, nominally like

2396
02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:39,840
Speaker 12: like at least in theory, like contradicts the rest of

2397
02:12:39,880 --> 02:12:41,400
Speaker 12: his platform, right like this this is going to be

2398
02:12:41,440 --> 02:12:42,960
Speaker 12: a thing that brings a lot of cops into the

2399
02:12:43,000 --> 02:12:46,440
Speaker 12: fucking city he's in theory supposed to be trying to

2400
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:52,120
Speaker 12: have policing done by like people who are cops. That's

2401
02:12:52,200 --> 02:12:54,080
Speaker 12: gonna suck if it works.

2402
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:57,840
Speaker 3: Yes, And that is that is your reminder for if

2403
02:12:57,880 --> 02:12:59,720
Speaker 3: you do live in Chicago, like me and I that

2404
02:12:59,880 --> 02:13:02,240
Speaker 3: just because Brandon Johnson got elected does not mean that

2405
02:13:02,280 --> 02:13:06,200
Speaker 3: you could to sit home. Like if you are involved

2406
02:13:06,320 --> 02:13:10,640
Speaker 3: or invested in Chicago progressive politics, just because you have

2407
02:13:10,680 --> 02:13:12,600
Speaker 3: a progressive mayor doesn't mean you get to sit back

2408
02:13:12,640 --> 02:13:14,400
Speaker 3: and relax. You have to do a lot of work

2409
02:13:14,440 --> 02:13:15,880
Speaker 3: to hold these people's feet to the fire.

2410
02:13:16,360 --> 02:13:19,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, Like you're like, you're you're gonna end up fighting

2411
02:13:19,280 --> 02:13:21,720
Speaker 12: these people and it's gonna suck, and you're going to

2412
02:13:21,800 --> 02:13:22,200
Speaker 12: have to do it.

2413
02:13:22,560 --> 02:13:25,120
Speaker 3: Like if you if you believe.

2414
02:13:24,960 --> 02:13:26,720
Speaker 12: In the things that you that you claim to believe to,

2415
02:13:26,800 --> 02:13:29,760
Speaker 12: when are not sort of just acting out of like

2416
02:13:31,080 --> 02:13:34,280
Speaker 12: you know, either you're not just purely acting on a

2417
02:13:34,320 --> 02:13:36,240
Speaker 12: sort of candidate loyalty you were you were going to

2418
02:13:36,360 --> 02:13:38,880
Speaker 12: have to fight people that you helped get elected, and

2419
02:13:39,400 --> 02:13:39,880
Speaker 12: you're going to have.

2420
02:13:39,920 --> 02:13:42,920
Speaker 3: To pay for that. Start the five stages of grief.

2421
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:47,560
Speaker 12: Now, okay, move moving, moving moving on from that ship, moving.

2422
02:13:47,480 --> 02:13:53,120
Speaker 3: On, we need to talk about Wisconsin. The other big

2423
02:13:53,480 --> 02:13:57,120
Speaker 3: election that happened on Tuesday night was an election that

2424
02:13:57,280 --> 02:14:00,160
Speaker 3: flipped the Supreme Court of the State of wiscon And

2425
02:14:00,280 --> 02:14:04,560
Speaker 3: from a conservative majority, and not just like lowercase C conservative,

2426
02:14:04,600 --> 02:14:08,880
Speaker 3: but like batshit and sane Christian nationalists conservative from a

2427
02:14:08,960 --> 02:14:12,520
Speaker 3: majority of those people to a liberal majority. That is

2428
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:15,720
Speaker 3: hopefully going to make life better for the people of Wisconsin.

2429
02:14:17,160 --> 02:14:20,120
Speaker 3: So for those of you who are not paying attention

2430
02:14:20,200 --> 02:14:22,320
Speaker 3: to this, which is likely even more than the people

2431
02:14:22,360 --> 02:14:25,280
Speaker 3: who were not paying attention to Chicago, because state Supreme

2432
02:14:25,360 --> 02:14:30,040
Speaker 3: Court races, most people if you tell them about those,

2433
02:14:30,240 --> 02:14:33,440
Speaker 3: react with that's a thing. Yeah, and I mean to

2434
02:14:33,760 --> 02:14:34,280
Speaker 3: be fair.

2435
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:36,560
Speaker 12: To be fair, this is probably the most nationally prominent

2436
02:14:37,040 --> 02:14:39,440
Speaker 12: state street court election of my lifetime. That means that

2437
02:14:39,560 --> 02:14:42,840
Speaker 12: maybe four people know about it instead of one.

2438
02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:44,960
Speaker 7: Yes.

2439
02:14:45,240 --> 02:14:50,440
Speaker 3: So on Tuesday night, Janet Protis Saywit, who was the

2440
02:14:50,880 --> 02:14:56,000
Speaker 3: Democratic aligned candidate, beat the Republican aligned candidate Daniel Kelly,

2441
02:14:56,080 --> 02:14:59,160
Speaker 3: who was himself a former member of the Wisconsin Supreme

2442
02:14:59,240 --> 02:15:02,520
Speaker 3: Court eleven points, which is a really big deal because

2443
02:15:02,560 --> 02:15:06,120
Speaker 3: Wisconsin voted for Joe Biden by zero point six points.

2444
02:15:07,000 --> 02:15:10,160
Speaker 3: So this is very much like landslide level territory for

2445
02:15:10,280 --> 02:15:15,040
Speaker 3: wiscon for Wisconsin Democrats, it was very much a perfect storm.

2446
02:15:15,280 --> 02:15:17,880
Speaker 3: Like the areas of the state that have been trending

2447
02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:24,000
Speaker 3: towards Republicans experienced massive reversion back towards Producewits and the

2448
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:26,720
Speaker 3: areas of the state that have historically been a Republican

2449
02:15:27,040 --> 02:15:32,680
Speaker 3: also really shifted left. And the reason this happened, the

2450
02:15:33,160 --> 02:15:36,560
Speaker 3: single reason it happened, is because of the Dobbs ruling

2451
02:15:37,000 --> 02:15:42,400
Speaker 3: that overturned Roe v. Wade and brought American gender dynamics

2452
02:15:42,480 --> 02:15:46,280
Speaker 3: back by a solid seventy five years. Pro to Saywits

2453
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:50,960
Speaker 3: successfully turned the campaign into a referendum on abortion rights,

2454
02:15:52,200 --> 02:15:55,040
Speaker 3: which is why she won by the margin she did.

2455
02:15:55,320 --> 02:15:59,480
Speaker 3: There was huge turnout in Madison, Milwaukee and college campuses.

2456
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:03,240
Speaker 3: There were multiple college campuses, I think where there were

2457
02:16:03,400 --> 02:16:09,200
Speaker 3: more votes cast in this state Supreme Court election than

2458
02:16:09,240 --> 02:16:14,920
Speaker 3: there were in the midterms last November. So this really

2459
02:16:15,160 --> 02:16:20,160
Speaker 3: was like every single thing that possibly could have gone

2460
02:16:20,320 --> 02:16:24,360
Speaker 3: right electorally for the Democrats in Wisconsin did obviously with

2461
02:16:24,600 --> 02:16:30,600
Speaker 3: very very like grim background context of the overturning of Row,

2462
02:16:31,480 --> 02:16:33,720
Speaker 3: but a good sign for the future of the abortion

2463
02:16:33,920 --> 02:16:38,160
Speaker 3: rights movement that you know, people voters did not forget

2464
02:16:38,160 --> 02:16:40,960
Speaker 3: about Dobbs after the midterms, like this is still an

2465
02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:44,040
Speaker 3: active force in national politics that is pushing people to

2466
02:16:44,120 --> 02:16:44,560
Speaker 3: the left.

2467
02:16:45,920 --> 02:16:48,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I want to specific we talk about this

2468
02:16:48,240 --> 02:16:55,080
Speaker 12: for a little bit too, because, like I think the

2469
02:16:55,240 --> 02:16:57,720
Speaker 12: media has kind of has really I think fallen down

2470
02:16:57,760 --> 02:17:00,920
Speaker 12: on the fucking job here, which is that like these

2471
02:17:00,959 --> 02:17:03,320
Speaker 12: people are like because there's like all all the people

2472
02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:06,800
Speaker 12: in the fucking media class are either like themselves are

2473
02:17:07,720 --> 02:17:10,960
Speaker 12: like hardline anti abortion rules or there people who this

2474
02:17:11,040 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 12: doesn't affect and you know, so they just stop giving

2475
02:17:13,840 --> 02:17:15,720
Speaker 12: a ship after like a couple of months because it's

2476
02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:16,880
Speaker 12: like whatever, who cares.

2477
02:17:17,240 --> 02:17:17,560
Speaker 13: But like.

2478
02:17:19,080 --> 02:17:23,000
Speaker 12: This is a if you are living under this, like

2479
02:17:23,360 --> 02:17:26,640
Speaker 12: this is this is like you can't fucking ignore this, no,

2480
02:17:27,320 --> 02:17:29,320
Speaker 12: like it is it is a it is an immense

2481
02:17:29,520 --> 02:17:33,640
Speaker 12: engine of death and human suffering that you know, it's

2482
02:17:33,720 --> 02:17:36,440
Speaker 12: it's it's this is the US, right we live under

2483
02:17:36,480 --> 02:17:38,480
Speaker 12: a normally like we live under a lot of immense

2484
02:17:38,560 --> 02:17:40,400
Speaker 12: sort of engines of death and human suffering.

2485
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:43,160
Speaker 3: But this is this is a kind of engine that

2486
02:17:44,000 --> 02:17:45,560
Speaker 3: just sweeps through.

2487
02:17:47,600 --> 02:17:50,160
Speaker 12: It sweeps across the sort of note what you think

2488
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:52,800
Speaker 12: of as like the quote unquote like like traditional.

2489
02:17:53,879 --> 02:17:54,280
Speaker 3: Sort of.

2490
02:17:55,959 --> 02:17:59,800
Speaker 12: Like I don't know, you like class liizes the right thing,

2491
02:17:59,800 --> 02:18:01,760
Speaker 12: But this is the thing that kind of sweeps across

2492
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:03,920
Speaker 12: the urban world divide in a lot of ways, like

2493
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:06,480
Speaker 12: it sweeps au across a lot of the certain normal

2494
02:18:06,520 --> 02:18:12,320
Speaker 12: political divisions because the Republicans have been like there there

2495
02:18:12,360 --> 02:18:18,200
Speaker 12: there lying on abortion has been hijacked by what I say, hijack, right,

2496
02:18:18,240 --> 02:18:19,240
Speaker 12: this is what this is, what this is what these

2497
02:18:19,240 --> 02:18:23,360
Speaker 12: people always wanted, but it's it's been it's being set

2498
02:18:23,600 --> 02:18:27,199
Speaker 12: by a bunch of just deranged Christian nationalists whose opinion

2499
02:18:27,280 --> 02:18:30,080
Speaker 12: reflect maybe tour like thirty percent of the country max.

2500
02:18:30,920 --> 02:18:34,680
Speaker 3: Not even that. Like the like the ruling of the

2501
02:18:35,000 --> 02:18:39,520
Speaker 3: judge down in Texas on I'm going to mess up

2502
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:41,800
Speaker 3: how to pronounce this, and I apologize, But if a

2503
02:18:41,879 --> 02:18:46,520
Speaker 3: priss stone, which is like a pill that, among other things,

2504
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:50,840
Speaker 3: can induce abortions, Uh, there was like a Republican judge

2505
02:18:50,879 --> 02:18:55,520
Speaker 3: down in northern Texas who attempted, who like, attempted to

2506
02:18:56,560 --> 02:19:00,600
Speaker 3: overturn the FDA's approval of the drug. The FDA proved

2507
02:19:00,760 --> 02:19:08,600
Speaker 3: this drug in the nineties, and his ruling very much

2508
02:19:09,000 --> 02:19:12,199
Speaker 3: was insane, like on top of just like the superficial

2509
02:19:12,240 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 3: insanity of trying to do this. His reasoning was that,

2510
02:19:16,240 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 3: you know, this man wrote a ruling saying that the

2511
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:24,160
Speaker 3: Constitution guarantees fetal personhood, which is a which we you

2512
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:26,520
Speaker 3: know would result in a complete and total ban on

2513
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:31,200
Speaker 3: abortion nationwide under all circumstances, and that's a viewpoint that

2514
02:19:31,360 --> 02:19:34,400
Speaker 3: is shared by less than ten percent of Americans. So like,

2515
02:19:34,640 --> 02:19:37,720
Speaker 3: it's just, you know, the Republican Party has gone off

2516
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:42,560
Speaker 3: the cliff after they went off the cliff here. Yeah,

2517
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:48,720
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know, I think this whole

2518
02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:50,039
Speaker 3: I think.

2519
02:19:49,959 --> 02:19:51,800
Speaker 12: There's a lot of ways in which this entire sort

2520
02:19:51,800 --> 02:19:54,039
Speaker 12: of election, the lection dynamics of this are really grim

2521
02:19:54,600 --> 02:19:56,440
Speaker 12: because the Democrats are the people who let the shit

2522
02:19:56,480 --> 02:20:00,400
Speaker 12: fucking happen, right like for years and years and years

2523
02:20:00,520 --> 02:20:03,480
Speaker 12: in years, they just you know, they used abortion as

2524
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:06,480
Speaker 12: an electoral thing and then did fucking nothing to actually

2525
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:08,640
Speaker 12: make sure that abortion would be that you know, would

2526
02:20:08,640 --> 02:20:10,520
Speaker 12: be saved, and they finally lost it. And now it's like,

2527
02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:13,560
Speaker 12: you know, it's the thing that's like, it's it's it's

2528
02:20:13,600 --> 02:20:15,840
Speaker 12: it's the electoral issue that's coming to bail them out

2529
02:20:15,879 --> 02:20:17,000
Speaker 12: of their like.

2530
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:20,480
Speaker 3: Electoral woes, and that fucking sucks in a lot of ways.

2531
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:22,879
Speaker 3: But it also means, I.

2532
02:20:22,879 --> 02:20:26,240
Speaker 12: Don't know, like it's it's it's it's beating some of

2533
02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:29,200
Speaker 12: the worst people in the fucking world. If we want

2534
02:20:29,280 --> 02:20:31,960
Speaker 12: to actually make sure that people have the ability to

2535
02:20:32,080 --> 02:20:35,120
Speaker 12: have safe abortions on demand, we are going to have

2536
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:37,320
Speaker 12: to do a lot of fighting that is not just

2537
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:39,119
Speaker 12: showing up to these elections.

2538
02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:45,000
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, but it is yeah, no, like like Mia said,

2539
02:20:45,080 --> 02:20:49,640
Speaker 3: it is really just like heinous that so many of

2540
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:53,360
Speaker 3: the Democratic Party big wigs who presided over the fifty

2541
02:20:53,480 --> 02:20:57,600
Speaker 3: years of Republicans saying they were going to do this

2542
02:20:57,720 --> 02:21:01,640
Speaker 3: and not taking Republicans seriously, are never going to feel

2543
02:21:01,640 --> 02:21:04,160
Speaker 3: accountable for this. Yeah, and I don't think I need

2544
02:21:04,240 --> 02:21:05,760
Speaker 3: to be you needs to be putting out with this too.

2545
02:21:05,879 --> 02:21:08,400
Speaker 12: Was like the Republicans the entire time, we're in every

2546
02:21:08,480 --> 02:21:12,879
Speaker 12: single way they possibly could like outlawing abortion without literally

2547
02:21:12,959 --> 02:21:16,440
Speaker 12: outlawing it, and people just stood that like the party

2548
02:21:16,440 --> 02:21:18,200
Speaker 12: which is like we don't give a shit, like we're

2549
02:21:18,240 --> 02:21:20,440
Speaker 12: not We're not going to like actually like fight this

2550
02:21:20,560 --> 02:21:23,400
Speaker 12: except for occasionally to run a losing candidate, right, like.

2551
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:27,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, no, it's it's insane, And like

2552
02:21:28,080 --> 02:21:31,160
Speaker 3: there are there are people in the Democratic Party who

2553
02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:34,760
Speaker 3: were trying to raise the alarm. Those people were generally ignored.

2554
02:21:36,560 --> 02:21:42,760
Speaker 3: But the you know, now that abortion rights are gone

2555
02:21:42,879 --> 02:21:46,760
Speaker 3: on a national level, we are seeing this electoral backlash

2556
02:21:47,000 --> 02:21:50,880
Speaker 3: and it is having the impact of like you know,

2557
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:57,519
Speaker 3: Republicans have been unable to effectively make the national conversation

2558
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:03,760
Speaker 3: about inflation, or about crime, or about trans athletes, which

2559
02:22:03,840 --> 02:22:06,480
Speaker 3: is also a losing issue for them, but god knows,

2560
02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:09,840
Speaker 3: they keep trying, but they have been unable to make

2561
02:22:09,879 --> 02:22:12,920
Speaker 3: the national conversation about those topics because voters are now

2562
02:22:13,000 --> 02:22:15,119
Speaker 3: looking at them like, but you're the freaks that took

2563
02:22:15,160 --> 02:22:21,200
Speaker 3: our abortion rights away? What's wrong with you? And in

2564
02:22:21,360 --> 02:22:25,560
Speaker 3: terms of Wisconsin, pro to say, which being on the

2565
02:22:25,600 --> 02:22:31,280
Speaker 3: Wisconsin Supreme Court is almost certainly she doesn't take office

2566
02:22:31,360 --> 02:22:34,039
Speaker 3: until August, which is a really weird amount of time

2567
02:22:35,000 --> 02:22:36,840
Speaker 3: for her to have to wait, Like I don't know

2568
02:22:36,879 --> 02:22:41,040
Speaker 3: why Wisconsin is like that, but it is. But once

2569
02:22:41,080 --> 02:22:49,120
Speaker 3: she is in office, Wisconsin should have restored abortion access,

2570
02:22:49,280 --> 02:22:53,480
Speaker 3: I would say almost immediately, basically, like as soon as

2571
02:22:53,480 --> 02:22:56,200
Speaker 3: someone can file a lawsuit over it, because right now,

2572
02:22:56,840 --> 02:23:00,240
Speaker 3: abortion is currently illegal in Wisconsin under a law from

2573
02:23:00,320 --> 02:23:05,520
Speaker 3: eighteen forty nine that the only exception to the law

2574
02:23:05,760 --> 02:23:08,640
Speaker 3: is to save the life of the mother, which, like.

2575
02:23:10,160 --> 02:23:10,680
Speaker 4: I think.

2576
02:23:12,200 --> 02:23:16,040
Speaker 3: People who are not personally impacted by the possibility of

2577
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:20,960
Speaker 3: pregnancy or the possibility of childbirth, I think really don't

2578
02:23:21,920 --> 02:23:25,920
Speaker 3: emotionally internalize what the language around some of these exceptions means,

2579
02:23:26,000 --> 02:23:29,200
Speaker 3: and it's like, if you are hearing the words like

2580
02:23:29,320 --> 02:23:33,560
Speaker 3: the only exception is life of the mother, that's really

2581
02:23:33,840 --> 02:23:36,200
Speaker 3: terrifying because it means like if you're going to be

2582
02:23:36,320 --> 02:23:41,119
Speaker 3: permanently injured as someone who's pregnant, but you're not literally

2583
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:44,280
Speaker 3: going to die. Abortion is not an option for you.

2584
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:49,879
Speaker 3: If the fetus that you are carrying, you know, whether

2585
02:23:50,040 --> 02:23:52,880
Speaker 3: you wanted an abortion or not, if that fetus has

2586
02:23:52,959 --> 02:23:55,160
Speaker 3: some kind of fatal defect, that is going to mean

2587
02:23:55,200 --> 02:23:57,880
Speaker 3: that your baby dies within hours or days after being

2588
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:00,800
Speaker 3: born and is going to be and pain the whole time.

2589
02:24:00,920 --> 02:24:03,840
Speaker 3: Abortion is not an option for you. If you are

2590
02:24:03,920 --> 02:24:08,320
Speaker 3: pregnant because of sexual violence or because of incest, abortion

2591
02:24:08,520 --> 02:24:13,880
Speaker 3: is not an option for you. And it's it's like,

2592
02:24:14,879 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 3: you know, I am a cisgender man, so like I

2593
02:24:17,160 --> 02:24:20,480
Speaker 3: can't personally understand, but like I can only guess how

2594
02:24:20,680 --> 02:24:26,640
Speaker 3: terrifying of a reality that is. And the you know,

2595
02:24:28,240 --> 02:24:31,959
Speaker 3: the only good news out of this is that once

2596
02:24:32,120 --> 02:24:35,160
Speaker 3: prodi Saywans is in office, that law is probably going

2597
02:24:35,200 --> 02:24:40,560
Speaker 3: to go away as quickly as possible, which is a

2598
02:24:40,800 --> 02:24:43,720
Speaker 3: much needed victory for the people of Wisconsin and hopefully

2599
02:24:44,120 --> 02:24:47,119
Speaker 3: is you know, carries the momentum forward for like post

2600
02:24:47,160 --> 02:24:51,440
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, hopefully we have a democratic trifecta again

2601
02:24:51,920 --> 02:24:55,840
Speaker 3: that can legislate abortion rights nationally and take it out

2602
02:24:56,000 --> 02:24:59,039
Speaker 3: of the ability to take away the ability for courts.

2603
02:24:58,760 --> 02:24:59,640
Speaker 5: To strike it down.

2604
02:25:02,760 --> 02:25:09,320
Speaker 3: There are some other ramifications for the state of Wisconsin

2605
02:25:10,040 --> 02:25:15,640
Speaker 3: that should also be mentioned. For those of you who

2606
02:25:15,920 --> 02:25:20,959
Speaker 3: live in Wisconsin. If I say the words public sector

2607
02:25:21,080 --> 02:25:24,200
Speaker 3: union law, you know what I'm talking about, the very

2608
02:25:24,320 --> 02:25:26,920
Speaker 3: infamous law that was passed by Scott Walker back in

2609
02:25:26,959 --> 02:25:31,000
Speaker 3: twenty ten, twenty eleven. I think that really restricted the

2610
02:25:31,040 --> 02:25:33,840
Speaker 3: collective bargaining rights of public sector unions, and like this

2611
02:25:33,959 --> 02:25:40,200
Speaker 3: sparked a recall campaign against Walker, which failed and proto

2612
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:44,360
Speaker 3: Sawitz has said on record she said it in a

2613
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:49,240
Speaker 3: campaign appearance because this race really just discarded all pretensions

2614
02:25:49,320 --> 02:25:53,280
Speaker 3: of like judicial impartiality. But she said in a campaign

2615
02:25:53,320 --> 02:25:55,680
Speaker 3: appearance that she wanted to get rid of that law.

2616
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,840
Speaker 3: So that law is probably going away, or hopefully we'll

2617
02:26:00,879 --> 02:26:06,279
Speaker 3: be going away. Wisconsin also has very gerrymandered state legislative

2618
02:26:06,320 --> 02:26:08,600
Speaker 3: maps that are almost certainly going to be struck down.

2619
02:26:09,160 --> 02:26:12,720
Speaker 3: Same thing with its congressional maps, which means that Democrats

2620
02:26:12,760 --> 02:26:15,600
Speaker 3: can probably count on two more seats in the House

2621
02:26:16,480 --> 02:26:23,080
Speaker 3: post twenty twenty four, and also on a basic like

2622
02:26:23,240 --> 02:26:24,880
Speaker 3: do we live in a democracy or not?

2623
02:26:25,080 --> 02:26:25,360
Speaker 4: Level?

2624
02:26:26,600 --> 02:26:29,880
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty, when the Trump campaign was filing all

2625
02:26:29,920 --> 02:26:36,600
Speaker 3: of its really idiotic lawsuits alleging voter fraud, the Supreme

2626
02:26:36,680 --> 02:26:40,080
Speaker 3: Court of Wisconsin was the court that came the closest

2627
02:26:40,240 --> 02:26:46,320
Speaker 3: to taking those allegations seriously. They voted by one vote

2628
02:26:47,120 --> 02:26:50,480
Speaker 3: to dismiss the case because one of the conservatives broke

2629
02:26:50,600 --> 02:26:53,080
Speaker 3: ranks and he has been hounded by the far right

2630
02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:59,240
Speaker 3: in Wisconsin ever since. Wisconsin was one vote away from

2631
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,560
Speaker 3: just three throwing out the popular election results, like the

2632
02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:05,959
Speaker 3: popular vote results, so there, you know, pro to say

2633
02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:10,440
Speaker 3: what's winning is literally an insurance policy for continuing to

2634
02:27:10,640 --> 02:27:15,360
Speaker 3: have the state of Wisconsin be a democracy. Yeah, which

2635
02:27:15,480 --> 02:27:17,440
Speaker 3: is good, Like I don't know that.

2636
02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:21,680
Speaker 12: Having a state that is effectively ruled by a dictatorship

2637
02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:25,840
Speaker 12: that was about to attempt to install like a dictator's

2638
02:27:25,959 --> 02:27:31,600
Speaker 12: president is good, Like I don't know. This is my

2639
02:27:32,280 --> 02:27:36,320
Speaker 12: lib take on this is in fact not good when

2640
02:27:38,040 --> 02:27:41,800
Speaker 12: a bunch of people are ruled by just an open dictatorship.

2641
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:47,200
Speaker 3: So, which is essentially what Wisconsin you know, has been

2642
02:27:48,760 --> 02:27:53,280
Speaker 3: barring Tony eversus Whens as governor in twenty eighteen and

2643
02:27:53,320 --> 02:27:56,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, like until he was in office, like

2644
02:27:56,480 --> 02:28:00,439
Speaker 3: Scott Walker presided over a single party dictatorship and wassconsin

2645
02:28:01,920 --> 02:28:04,160
Speaker 3: and so like, you know, which is part of also

2646
02:28:04,240 --> 02:28:06,000
Speaker 3: why pro to States was able to win by the

2647
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:09,560
Speaker 3: margins that she did, because you know, Wisconsin is a

2648
02:28:09,600 --> 02:28:13,640
Speaker 3: swing state. It is reliably going to be close to

2649
02:28:13,680 --> 02:28:16,879
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty, but especially on social issues, it has

2650
02:28:16,920 --> 02:28:22,320
Speaker 3: a liberal majority, and a lot of people paid attention

2651
02:28:22,440 --> 02:28:26,320
Speaker 3: to this race and they saw correctly the opportunity to

2652
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:32,720
Speaker 3: dismantle the dictatorship that effectively has had control of Wisconsin

2653
02:28:32,840 --> 02:28:34,080
Speaker 3: for the last decade plus.

2654
02:28:35,320 --> 02:28:37,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I mean, you know, the other thing, like

2655
02:28:37,360 --> 02:28:40,760
Speaker 12: part of what we're what's happening here is that if

2656
02:28:41,000 --> 02:28:44,880
Speaker 12: conservatives are actually allowed to do uncontested rule in a

2657
02:28:44,959 --> 02:28:50,160
Speaker 12: place that's even like kind of not just like a

2658
02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:55,680
Speaker 12: one hundred percent like conservative district, the results that they, like,

2659
02:28:56,080 --> 02:28:59,800
Speaker 12: the actual policies they put in place are fucking horrifying. Yeah.

2660
02:29:00,160 --> 02:29:03,280
Speaker 3: Bad, it's like obviously bad, but like you get, I mean,

2661
02:29:03,360 --> 02:29:05,560
Speaker 3: you get you get stuff like what happened in Tennessee

2662
02:29:06,040 --> 02:29:09,080
Speaker 3: in the last week where they you know, the state

2663
02:29:09,200 --> 02:29:17,080
Speaker 3: legislature expelled Democratic lawmakers for like engaging in the mildest

2664
02:29:17,200 --> 02:29:22,680
Speaker 3: of protests against like an open carry bill, and you know,

2665
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:27,440
Speaker 3: just in a real cherry on top moment, the Tennessee

2666
02:29:27,480 --> 02:29:32,840
Speaker 3: State Legislature only expelled the black legislators who protested, and

2667
02:29:33,200 --> 02:29:37,760
Speaker 3: the white legislator who joined them survived her expulsion vote,

2668
02:29:38,640 --> 02:29:42,160
Speaker 3: because you know, we don't want to be like the

2669
02:29:42,280 --> 02:29:44,880
Speaker 3: days of the Republican Party not wanting to be two

2670
02:29:45,080 --> 02:29:51,600
Speaker 3: on the nose about the racism are long gone. But yes, so,

2671
02:29:53,240 --> 02:29:58,920
Speaker 3: But overall, good things happened in Wisconsin on Tuesday, and

2672
02:29:59,760 --> 02:30:02,680
Speaker 3: some some of the really terrible things that were put

2673
02:30:02,720 --> 02:30:05,480
Speaker 3: into law in that state in the last decade are

2674
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:09,480
Speaker 3: hopefully about to go away. Yeah, there were some other places,

2675
02:30:09,959 --> 02:30:14,320
Speaker 3: mostly in the Midwest because once again the coastal regions

2676
02:30:14,360 --> 02:30:17,040
Speaker 3: of the country let us down. But there were some

2677
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:21,520
Speaker 3: other places where liberals or progressives did well on Tuesday.

2678
02:30:22,640 --> 02:30:27,280
Speaker 3: Saint Louis, Missouri, has had a progressive city council, and

2679
02:30:28,360 --> 02:30:31,160
Speaker 3: there was a very strong kind of law and order

2680
02:30:31,360 --> 02:30:35,240
Speaker 3: challenge to that progressive majority based in the city's white majority.

2681
02:30:35,320 --> 02:30:39,280
Speaker 3: Wards and after Tuesday night, it's pretty clear that progressives

2682
02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:42,280
Speaker 3: will continue to have a majority on the city council.

2683
02:30:43,760 --> 02:30:46,240
Speaker 3: In Kansas City, on the other end of the state

2684
02:30:46,280 --> 02:30:49,879
Speaker 3: of Missouri, we are probably going to get the most

2685
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:53,440
Speaker 3: progressive city council that the city has ever had. The

2686
02:30:54,320 --> 02:30:58,280
Speaker 3: main left wing group got all of its candidates through

2687
02:30:58,400 --> 02:31:01,600
Speaker 3: to the general election which is on June twentieth, and

2688
02:31:01,879 --> 02:31:05,360
Speaker 3: the main right wing tough on crime group seems like

2689
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:09,040
Speaker 3: it's going to be capped at winning two seats. So

2690
02:31:09,200 --> 02:31:11,520
Speaker 3: you know, once again, the Midwest is the engine of

2691
02:31:11,560 --> 02:31:15,720
Speaker 3: American progressivism and the West coast can suck it. Yeah,

2692
02:31:18,760 --> 02:31:21,120
Speaker 3: there is one more piece of good news, which is

2693
02:31:21,200 --> 02:31:25,080
Speaker 3: that in Illinois there was a set of far right

2694
02:31:25,200 --> 02:31:28,640
Speaker 3: groups that ran a bunch of school board candidates on

2695
02:31:28,840 --> 02:31:34,240
Speaker 3: the like anti critical race theory, anti queer, anti trans platforms,

2696
02:31:35,840 --> 02:31:37,880
Speaker 3: and actually I'll just say the names of the groups

2697
02:31:37,920 --> 02:31:42,199
Speaker 3: because people should know. These groups are Awake Illinois, Moms

2698
02:31:42,280 --> 02:31:47,160
Speaker 3: for Liberty, and the seventeen seventy six Project. Basically, these

2699
02:31:47,280 --> 02:31:49,680
Speaker 3: groups are you know, if you went to the South

2700
02:31:49,760 --> 02:31:52,480
Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, you had the Klan and then

2701
02:31:52,560 --> 02:31:58,160
Speaker 3: you had the White Citizens Council, which was the supposedly

2702
02:31:58,320 --> 02:32:01,920
Speaker 3: more respectable face of white nationalism in the South in

2703
02:32:02,000 --> 02:32:06,120
Speaker 3: the sixties and seventies, and groups like Moms or Liberty

2704
02:32:06,160 --> 02:32:10,520
Speaker 3: and Awake Illinois are kind of the equivalent to groups

2705
02:32:10,600 --> 02:32:14,440
Speaker 3: like the Proud Boys and very you know, fittingly with

2706
02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:18,640
Speaker 3: the analogy here, these groups are primarily run and staffed

2707
02:32:18,720 --> 02:32:22,720
Speaker 3: by conservative women, just like white citizens councils were down

2708
02:32:22,800 --> 02:32:28,520
Speaker 3: South about fifty years ago, and thankfully, these candidates almost

2709
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:33,200
Speaker 3: all went down in flames. I think there is a

2710
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:36,520
Speaker 3: school board election in me and I's hometown, which is

2711
02:32:36,760 --> 02:32:41,199
Speaker 3: very notoriously conservative for people in the area, and even

2712
02:32:41,240 --> 02:32:47,640
Speaker 3: in that in our hometown, they've lost. And like these

2713
02:32:47,840 --> 02:32:50,960
Speaker 3: losses extended into downstate Illinois too, and like there's a

2714
02:32:51,160 --> 02:32:54,480
Speaker 3: small city called Quincy in western Illinois where it's like,

2715
02:32:54,560 --> 02:32:59,880
Speaker 3: this is a place that votes Republican routinely by like

2716
02:33:00,240 --> 02:33:05,160
Speaker 3: thirty points, like a sixty five percent majority, and these

2717
02:33:05,800 --> 02:33:10,240
Speaker 3: far right school board candidates lost in Quincy, Illinois. So

2718
02:33:10,400 --> 02:33:13,200
Speaker 3: thankfully people saw through the bullshit and were like, actually,

2719
02:33:13,280 --> 02:33:15,320
Speaker 3: you people are weirdos, and we're not going to hand

2720
02:33:15,360 --> 02:33:15,800
Speaker 3: you power.

2721
02:33:16,320 --> 02:33:19,520
Speaker 12: Yeah. Another thing that was very funny is Carbondale, which

2722
02:33:19,560 --> 02:33:22,040
Speaker 12: is like a very like this is like, I like,

2723
02:33:23,560 --> 02:33:25,200
Speaker 12: this is this is this is a Carbondale is a

2724
02:33:25,280 --> 02:33:29,000
Speaker 12: southern Illinois ass town is like not quite as far

2725
02:33:29,160 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 12: south tacnically speaking as you can.

2726
02:33:30,560 --> 02:33:33,000
Speaker 3: Go in Illinois, but like it's close.

2727
02:33:33,240 --> 02:33:35,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, I unlike did their first transperson to serve in

2728
02:33:35,640 --> 02:33:38,920
Speaker 12: a city council anywhere in Illinois. So like they're they're

2729
02:33:38,959 --> 02:33:45,480
Speaker 12: getting cloudborated fucking Carbondale, like they had a really fucking

2730
02:33:45,800 --> 02:33:50,600
Speaker 12: just destroyed. And I'm very happy about this because you know,

2731
02:33:50,959 --> 02:33:54,440
Speaker 12: a lot of kids are going to grow up in

2732
02:33:57,200 --> 02:34:01,800
Speaker 12: schools that are way less shitty than they were. Like

2733
02:34:02,040 --> 02:34:04,000
Speaker 12: even when I was there were like God help, the

2734
02:34:04,080 --> 02:34:09,840
Speaker 12: generation before us was just like sve and like would

2735
02:34:09,879 --> 02:34:12,680
Speaker 12: have killed like me and most of the people.

2736
02:34:12,800 --> 02:34:17,800
Speaker 3: I know, like yeah, yeah, no, the schools that me

2737
02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:19,840
Speaker 3: and I grew up in were not a great place

2738
02:34:19,959 --> 02:34:25,000
Speaker 3: to be queerer trans of any variety. But I mean

2739
02:34:25,120 --> 02:34:28,440
Speaker 3: this is also going to help because of I have.

2740
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:31,840
Speaker 3: I still don't know what the Biden administration was thinking

2741
02:34:31,879 --> 02:34:35,480
Speaker 3: about this, but like the new like rule that they're

2742
02:34:35,520 --> 02:34:39,279
Speaker 3: rolling out around trans participation in K through twelve sports

2743
02:34:39,440 --> 02:34:42,680
Speaker 3: through the Department of Education. This got a lot of

2744
02:34:42,760 --> 02:34:46,320
Speaker 3: attention on Twitter in the last couple of days because

2745
02:34:47,840 --> 02:34:50,879
Speaker 3: I'm going to be as charitable as I can here

2746
02:34:51,080 --> 02:35:00,240
Speaker 3: to all of the people involved. But there was a

2747
02:35:01,360 --> 02:35:06,920
Speaker 3: panic on in progressive circles on social media, especially queer

2748
02:35:06,959 --> 02:35:11,199
Speaker 3: in trans circles, because the Washington Post decided to frame

2749
02:35:11,320 --> 02:35:16,520
Speaker 3: this rule in like the most like hyperbolic way possible.

2750
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:18,440
Speaker 3: And this is not me saying that the rule is good,

2751
02:35:18,560 --> 02:35:22,920
Speaker 3: because the rule could definitely still be bad. But the

2752
02:35:22,959 --> 02:35:27,240
Speaker 3: Biden administration is essentially, from what I can tell, trying

2753
02:35:27,360 --> 02:35:34,000
Speaker 3: to include trans kids in Title nine protections. The proposed

2754
02:35:34,080 --> 02:35:37,119
Speaker 3: wording of their rule is not great and definitely needs

2755
02:35:37,160 --> 02:35:41,600
Speaker 3: to be improved, But the outcome here can be good

2756
02:35:42,280 --> 02:35:46,640
Speaker 3: in the sense that it would ban blanket prohibitions on

2757
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:49,600
Speaker 3: trans kids in K through twelve sports, and it would

2758
02:35:49,640 --> 02:35:53,000
Speaker 3: require exceptions to like It would require like any exceptions

2759
02:35:53,080 --> 02:35:56,720
Speaker 3: to pretty much be like, you know, you have to

2760
02:35:56,840 --> 02:36:01,119
Speaker 3: prove that there is a danger to like fair competition here,

2761
02:36:01,280 --> 02:36:05,680
Speaker 3: which is the standard that Title nine uses for sports

2762
02:36:05,800 --> 02:36:09,039
Speaker 3: for cisgender men and or cisgender boys and cisgender girls.

2763
02:36:09,959 --> 02:36:13,480
Speaker 3: So like can be good? Will you know if you

2764
02:36:13,680 --> 02:36:17,160
Speaker 3: are invested in this. The public comment period on that

2765
02:36:17,360 --> 02:36:19,640
Speaker 3: rule is about to open. It's definitely a place where

2766
02:36:19,640 --> 02:36:22,560
Speaker 3: you should speak up and say, like, hey, the wording

2767
02:36:22,640 --> 02:36:25,880
Speaker 3: of this is a little shit, Like, let's be clearer

2768
02:36:25,959 --> 02:36:29,000
Speaker 3: here that the presumption should be that trans kids should

2769
02:36:29,000 --> 02:36:32,640
Speaker 3: be allowed to participate in on teams that align with

2770
02:36:32,760 --> 02:36:37,640
Speaker 3: the gender they identify as. And thankfully, because a lot

2771
02:36:37,680 --> 02:36:42,360
Speaker 3: of these dipshit school board candidates lost, hopefully some of

2772
02:36:42,400 --> 02:36:45,440
Speaker 3: these school boards will be taking the right side of

2773
02:36:45,560 --> 02:36:46,039
Speaker 3: history here.

2774
02:36:46,760 --> 02:36:47,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, go go go.

2775
02:36:48,040 --> 02:36:51,879
Speaker 12: Okay, So I'm slightly more angry about this than than

2776
02:36:52,520 --> 02:36:53,560
Speaker 12: you are, because I.

2777
02:36:55,200 --> 02:36:55,440
Speaker 3: Don't know.

2778
02:36:55,560 --> 02:36:59,240
Speaker 12: I think there's a pretty glaring hole in this that

2779
02:36:59,480 --> 02:37:02,560
Speaker 12: let's asphob just be like, well obviously.

2780
02:37:02,240 --> 02:37:06,440
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I guess yeah. I think the affording is

2781
02:37:06,959 --> 02:37:09,640
Speaker 3: vague and it should be made a lot less vague.

2782
02:37:10,120 --> 02:37:11,240
Speaker 3: I think it's bad. I don't know.

2783
02:37:11,320 --> 02:37:13,800
Speaker 12: I I I think I think that the backlash to

2784
02:37:13,840 --> 02:37:15,960
Speaker 12: the backlash about that went too far, and now there's

2785
02:37:15,959 --> 02:37:17,560
Speaker 12: a bunch of people insisting that this is in fact

2786
02:37:17,600 --> 02:37:20,960
Speaker 12: a really good rule and like no, like if if

2787
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:23,520
Speaker 12: it's if it's if it's executed as is, it is

2788
02:37:23,600 --> 02:37:25,000
Speaker 12: going to let a lot of people do a lot

2789
02:37:25,040 --> 02:37:25,800
Speaker 12: of friend phobic ship.

2790
02:37:26,000 --> 02:37:30,520
Speaker 3: Yes, as is it is bad. If they change the

2791
02:37:30,640 --> 02:37:33,640
Speaker 3: wording of it. It can be better. Yeah, so go

2792
02:37:33,800 --> 02:37:36,560
Speaker 3: yell at Biden until he makes it less shit.

2793
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:42,400
Speaker 12: Absolutely, you have to do this. Yeah, if you see him,

2794
02:37:42,440 --> 02:37:44,600
Speaker 12: if you see him walking down the street, yell at him.

2795
02:37:46,160 --> 02:37:47,920
Speaker 12: If you see him in a restaurant, yell at him.

2796
02:37:48,920 --> 02:37:52,200
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, very very genuinely, like a It's always a

2797
02:37:52,240 --> 02:37:54,680
Speaker 3: good idea to yell at the Biden administration about anything,

2798
02:37:55,600 --> 02:37:58,080
Speaker 3: but be especially go yell at them about this. This

2799
02:37:58,200 --> 02:38:01,480
Speaker 3: can be done multiple ways. You can and reach out

2800
02:38:01,720 --> 02:38:05,000
Speaker 3: to your congressional representatives and tell them that you want

2801
02:38:05,040 --> 02:38:09,400
Speaker 3: the rule already made better. You can go there should

2802
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:13,280
Speaker 3: be soon a direct form you can fill out on

2803
02:38:13,400 --> 02:38:16,920
Speaker 3: the Department of Education website where you can provide your

2804
02:38:16,959 --> 02:38:19,879
Speaker 3: own personal opinion on the rule. But basically, go yell

2805
02:38:19,920 --> 02:38:23,119
Speaker 3: at the Biden administration and tell them to insert language

2806
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:28,080
Speaker 3: into the rule that makes very clear that the legal

2807
02:38:28,200 --> 02:38:33,360
Speaker 3: presumption that must be overcome should be that trans kids

2808
02:38:33,440 --> 02:38:36,120
Speaker 3: get to compete on the teams of the gender they

2809
02:38:36,240 --> 02:38:36,840
Speaker 3: identify with.

2810
02:38:38,080 --> 02:38:42,200
Speaker 12: Yeah. So yeah, having now yelled about that for a bit, yeah,

2811
02:38:42,480 --> 02:38:45,560
Speaker 12: we should, I think start wrapping up the last sort

2812
02:38:45,600 --> 02:38:48,119
Speaker 12: of bits of electoral news.

2813
02:38:49,080 --> 02:38:52,680
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, so the last thing I think we should

2814
02:38:52,680 --> 02:39:00,320
Speaker 3: talk about is probably Denver, Denver for those of you

2815
02:39:00,400 --> 02:39:02,520
Speaker 3: who do not know me and I, which is probably

2816
02:39:02,560 --> 02:39:05,200
Speaker 3: almost I would hope almost everyone who listens to this,

2817
02:39:07,760 --> 02:39:10,440
Speaker 3: I will die on the hill that Denver is a

2818
02:39:10,560 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 3: West Coast city, is not physically on the ocean, but

2819
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:20,600
Speaker 3: the vibes rancid, and like the rest of the West Coast,

2820
02:39:20,680 --> 02:39:26,240
Speaker 3: Denver let us down. On Tuesday night, the mayor's election

2821
02:39:26,640 --> 02:39:29,440
Speaker 3: is going to a runoff between two candidates who both

2822
02:39:29,520 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 3: have pretty awful platforms on homelessness, and there is one

2823
02:39:34,720 --> 02:39:36,640
Speaker 3: that is worse. So if you are looking for the

2824
02:39:36,680 --> 02:39:41,240
Speaker 3: candidates to hold your nose and vote for, right now,

2825
02:39:42,120 --> 02:39:43,920
Speaker 3: you know see how it goes. But right now I

2826
02:39:43,959 --> 02:39:46,360
Speaker 3: would say that is Mike Johnson, not because he has

2827
02:39:46,440 --> 02:39:49,640
Speaker 3: anything good to say, he doesn't, but because his opponent,

2828
02:39:50,600 --> 02:39:54,439
Speaker 3: Kelly Brow says that she would have homeless people arrested

2829
02:39:54,600 --> 02:39:58,080
Speaker 3: if they refuse to leave camps in public parks. So

2830
02:39:58,280 --> 02:40:01,840
Speaker 3: she just fucking blows and she should be, you know,

2831
02:40:02,000 --> 02:40:06,480
Speaker 3: never be allowed anywhere in your power. The other bit

2832
02:40:06,560 --> 02:40:08,720
Speaker 3: of Denver news I think we should talk about is

2833
02:40:09,680 --> 02:40:14,640
Speaker 3: there was a housing referendum where the proposal was to

2834
02:40:14,800 --> 02:40:18,360
Speaker 3: turn an old golf course that is not currently being

2835
02:40:18,520 --> 02:40:23,640
Speaker 3: used into a housing development that would have I think

2836
02:40:23,760 --> 02:40:28,960
Speaker 3: twenty five percent affordable units, and it would part of

2837
02:40:29,000 --> 02:40:32,480
Speaker 3: it would also be turned into a park. And truly,

2838
02:40:32,600 --> 02:40:34,800
Speaker 3: what I thought was the dumbest thing that happened on

2839
02:40:34,879 --> 02:40:40,880
Speaker 3: Tuesday night. The proposal lost, and the Denver branch of

2840
02:40:41,080 --> 02:40:46,039
Speaker 3: DSA was campaigning against this housing development on the premise

2841
02:40:46,320 --> 02:40:51,240
Speaker 3: that building more housing is bad if someone profits off

2842
02:40:51,280 --> 02:40:54,880
Speaker 3: of it. And I definitely understand that. Listen, Like profiting

2843
02:40:54,959 --> 02:40:59,160
Speaker 3: off of housing is bad. We also need more housing,

2844
02:41:00,200 --> 02:41:07,120
Speaker 3: and Denver especially desperately needs more housing. And somehow we

2845
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:12,880
Speaker 3: got this incredibly stupid coalition of nimbi's and like green

2846
02:41:13,000 --> 02:41:17,360
Speaker 3: space environmentalists and the Denver DSA that all came together

2847
02:41:18,040 --> 02:41:22,440
Speaker 3: to stop the housing development. And Miah, I'm sure you

2848
02:41:22,560 --> 02:41:24,680
Speaker 3: probably think a little differently about this than I do,

2849
02:41:24,800 --> 02:41:26,600
Speaker 3: but I saw this and I was like, what the hell, man?

2850
02:41:27,560 --> 02:41:29,760
Speaker 12: I mean? Okay, So here's why I know very little

2851
02:41:29,800 --> 02:41:31,920
Speaker 12: about this. My take is that if you have the

2852
02:41:31,959 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 12: opportunity to destroy a golf course and you vote, know

2853
02:41:34,800 --> 02:41:37,920
Speaker 12: you are like, as long as you're not literally building

2854
02:41:37,959 --> 02:41:42,560
Speaker 12: a prison camp like reactionary dogs the bourgeoisie destroy every

2855
02:41:42,640 --> 02:41:43,480
Speaker 12: golf course.

2856
02:41:45,720 --> 02:41:48,840
Speaker 3: Always a good you know, that's actually that's pretty good.

2857
02:41:48,959 --> 02:41:51,600
Speaker 3: That's that's a pretty good line. I should start saying

2858
02:41:51,640 --> 02:41:54,000
Speaker 3: it to more people. Destroy every golf course you can.

2859
02:41:55,879 --> 02:41:58,920
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, this it was I think the most

2860
02:41:58,959 --> 02:42:01,960
Speaker 3: frustrating thing that I saw happen on Tuesday night, and

2861
02:42:02,800 --> 02:42:05,800
Speaker 3: I think it is one of those questions that the

2862
02:42:05,920 --> 02:42:07,600
Speaker 3: Left is going to have to deal with in the

2863
02:42:07,680 --> 02:42:10,560
Speaker 3: next couple of years. Is like, all right, we have

2864
02:42:10,640 --> 02:42:12,920
Speaker 3: a lot of cities that desperately need a lot more housing.

2865
02:42:13,360 --> 02:42:16,240
Speaker 3: So how do we get it done, if you, you know,

2866
02:42:16,400 --> 02:42:18,840
Speaker 3: without just turning it over to the real estate lobby,

2867
02:42:18,879 --> 02:42:22,680
Speaker 3: because obviously that would also be really shitty. But the

2868
02:42:22,760 --> 02:42:25,640
Speaker 3: answer cannot be don't build more housing.

2869
02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:29,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, the thing I will say about this

2870
02:42:29,440 --> 02:42:34,959
Speaker 12: also is that another answer is, like, you know, we've

2871
02:42:35,000 --> 02:42:38,000
Speaker 12: recovered this on the show to like the other part

2872
02:42:38,080 --> 02:42:39,880
Speaker 12: of this. If you don't want a city that's just

2873
02:42:39,959 --> 02:42:42,600
Speaker 12: like absolutely horrific, you need to have a strong tennis movement,

2874
02:42:43,480 --> 02:42:45,320
Speaker 12: and you need to you need to have a tennis

2875
02:42:45,360 --> 02:42:48,640
Speaker 12: movement that's willing to move beyond things like rank control

2876
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:53,279
Speaker 12: and move towards like actively like fighting to seize buildings

2877
02:42:53,320 --> 02:42:57,560
Speaker 12: from like from developers, and that's the thing that's happening,

2878
02:42:57,640 --> 02:42:59,240
Speaker 12: that there are places where people are doing this.

2879
02:43:00,280 --> 02:43:01,120
Speaker 3: It can be done.

2880
02:43:02,640 --> 02:43:04,959
Speaker 12: Yeah, so.

2881
02:43:07,200 --> 02:43:09,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that, I don't know, like I feel like,

2882
02:43:11,920 --> 02:43:13,600
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not going to go into my.

2883
02:43:13,840 --> 02:43:18,000
Speaker 12: Entire thing on the sort of bimbi debate other than

2884
02:43:18,240 --> 02:43:23,160
Speaker 12: saying that, like, increasing the power of tenants will give

2885
02:43:23,160 --> 02:43:25,279
Speaker 12: you a bet, will give you the best options.

2886
02:43:26,200 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 3: Yes, very very much. Tenant unions are good. Yelling at

2887
02:43:31,040 --> 02:43:34,520
Speaker 3: the Biden administration is good, Destroying golf courses is good,

2888
02:43:35,240 --> 02:43:37,320
Speaker 3: and abortion rights are good.

2889
02:43:37,600 --> 02:43:40,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, and go fight for these things and things that

2890
02:43:40,840 --> 02:43:43,480
Speaker 12: aren't elections, because every once in a while, an election

2891
02:43:43,600 --> 02:43:46,200
Speaker 12: will give your result, which is the worst person on

2892
02:43:46,320 --> 02:43:49,280
Speaker 12: earth has been replaced by a slightly better person. And

2893
02:43:49,879 --> 02:43:52,040
Speaker 12: you know, I do like to not be ruled by

2894
02:43:52,040 --> 02:43:58,000
Speaker 12: the worst person on earth. But the ideal political situation

2895
02:43:58,160 --> 02:44:01,040
Speaker 12: is the one we're not. We're like people cease to

2896
02:44:01,280 --> 02:44:02,040
Speaker 12: rule over us.

2897
02:44:03,040 --> 02:44:07,360
Speaker 3: So yes, no, you gotta you gotta do the non

2898
02:44:07,400 --> 02:44:12,320
Speaker 3: electoral work alongside the electoral work. You can't just be

2899
02:44:13,000 --> 02:44:15,480
Speaker 3: relying on elections to make things better. You got to

2900
02:44:15,520 --> 02:44:16,680
Speaker 3: be pushing for it all the time.

2901
02:44:17,240 --> 02:44:20,760
Speaker 12: Yeah, well, I say, yeah, I am much softer on

2902
02:44:20,840 --> 02:44:21,800
Speaker 12: electoral work.

2903
02:44:22,480 --> 02:44:25,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, no, Mia would rather MEA would rather

2904
02:44:25,760 --> 02:44:29,760
Speaker 3: than everyone doing electoral work start doing better things with

2905
02:44:29,879 --> 02:44:32,720
Speaker 3: their time and her eyes. Yeah, but if if you are.

2906
02:44:32,760 --> 02:44:34,880
Speaker 12: Going to be a person who does electoral stuff like

2907
02:44:35,320 --> 02:44:38,600
Speaker 12: it doesn't it doesn't matter what electoral victories you win,

2908
02:44:39,000 --> 02:44:42,600
Speaker 12: if you are just not doing anything that isn't electoral,

2909
02:44:43,120 --> 02:44:45,880
Speaker 12: because the actual sort of political the actual composition of

2910
02:44:45,920 --> 02:44:48,840
Speaker 12: political power in the city, and the sort of the

2911
02:44:49,600 --> 02:44:53,320
Speaker 12: city's class composition, the balance of forces between sort of

2912
02:44:53,520 --> 02:44:55,959
Speaker 12: like yeah, I mean things like between unions and employers,

2913
02:44:56,040 --> 02:44:57,840
Speaker 12: right like directly between workers and.

2914
02:44:57,840 --> 02:44:58,760
Speaker 3: Between the employers.

2915
02:44:59,080 --> 02:45:01,520
Speaker 12: There are lots of lots and lots of things that

2916
02:45:01,640 --> 02:45:04,240
Speaker 12: are very very important even if you are an electoralist,

2917
02:45:04,600 --> 02:45:08,039
Speaker 12: that are mostly decided outside of almost almost entirely decided

2918
02:45:08,040 --> 02:45:09,840
Speaker 12: outside of the ballot box. And if you don't take

2919
02:45:09,879 --> 02:45:13,240
Speaker 12: that into account and you try to just run like

2920
02:45:13,879 --> 02:45:17,200
Speaker 12: the most well engineered political campaign, you're going to end

2921
02:45:17,280 --> 02:45:18,680
Speaker 12: up like the two thousand years.

2922
02:45:18,480 --> 02:45:24,119
Speaker 3: Going to get sixteen Democrats. Democrats. Yeah, yeah, now everything

2923
02:45:24,160 --> 02:45:27,760
Speaker 3: that Mia just said, and yeah.

2924
02:45:28,800 --> 02:45:31,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, I hope you've enjoyed the longest amount of time

2925
02:45:31,120 --> 02:45:33,480
Speaker 12: I will ever be caught talking about an election that

2926
02:45:33,520 --> 02:45:34,520
Speaker 12: doesn't involve a coup.

2927
02:45:37,800 --> 02:45:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this happened here. Yeah, thanks thanks again for having me.

2928
02:45:42,879 --> 02:45:45,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, thanks for coming on and all of you go

2929
02:45:45,240 --> 02:45:45,960
Speaker 12: happen to someone.

2930
02:46:01,080 --> 02:46:03,480
Speaker 4: My chicken has just come to me. You you don't

2931
02:46:03,520 --> 02:46:04,039
Speaker 4: catch them.

2932
02:46:05,520 --> 02:46:05,640
Speaker 10: Them?

2933
02:46:06,040 --> 02:46:11,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's love, not coercion. That is how you catch

2934
02:46:11,680 --> 02:46:14,959
Speaker 4: a chicken, which is not what this podcast is about,

2935
02:46:15,040 --> 02:46:18,600
Speaker 4: is it, Robert, No, it's not. No un fortunate. We're

2936
02:46:18,680 --> 02:46:22,200
Speaker 4: doing the Catching Chickens episode next week. But today we

2937
02:46:22,400 --> 02:46:27,680
Speaker 4: are joined by three guests. We have Ava, Mo and

2938
02:46:28,200 --> 02:46:30,720
Speaker 4: Wode and they're going to be talking to us about

2939
02:46:30,879 --> 02:46:34,360
Speaker 4: solidarity with anarchist prisoners and how you can do that

2940
02:46:34,400 --> 02:46:36,800
Speaker 4: and why you should do that and why people have

2941
02:46:36,920 --> 02:46:39,040
Speaker 4: been doing that for a long time. So would you

2942
02:46:39,120 --> 02:46:41,800
Speaker 4: guys like to introduce yourselves and just tell us your

2943
02:46:41,879 --> 02:46:44,840
Speaker 4: names and any relevant affiliations in your pronouns.

2944
02:46:45,560 --> 02:46:49,560
Speaker 14: I'm Ava she Her. I've been working with June eleventh

2945
02:46:49,760 --> 02:46:52,640
Speaker 14: for about a handful of years now and been doing

2946
02:46:52,879 --> 02:46:55,000
Speaker 14: prisoners support for almost ten years now.

2947
02:46:55,760 --> 02:46:58,000
Speaker 13: I'm more a melterz crow and everyone calls me Mo.

2948
02:46:58,200 --> 02:47:01,360
Speaker 13: My pronouns are they or Mo, and I'm an attorney

2949
02:47:01,400 --> 02:47:04,920
Speaker 13: and I do a lot of work with political prisoners,

2950
02:47:05,400 --> 02:47:10,280
Speaker 13: people facing politically motivated prosecutions, and incarcerated people who need

2951
02:47:10,400 --> 02:47:11,320
Speaker 13: gender affirming care.

2952
02:47:12,000 --> 02:47:14,040
Speaker 4: Excellent, Yeah, it's very important stuff.

2953
02:47:14,200 --> 02:47:17,240
Speaker 7: Hey, my name is wod you see him pronouns. I've

2954
02:47:17,280 --> 02:47:22,000
Speaker 7: been involved in prisoner support for twenty five plus years,

2955
02:47:22,400 --> 02:47:25,120
Speaker 7: enjoying anarchists related activities for longer than that.

2956
02:47:25,560 --> 02:47:29,439
Speaker 4: So I think if we start off with perhaps explaining

2957
02:47:30,320 --> 02:47:33,040
Speaker 4: what June eleventh is and sort of the history of it,

2958
02:47:33,560 --> 02:47:35,480
Speaker 4: why this is a day that people can show the

2959
02:47:35,560 --> 02:47:38,720
Speaker 4: solidarity with anarchist prisoners, that would be great, and just

2960
02:47:38,760 --> 02:47:39,880
Speaker 4: what if you want to talk about that.

2961
02:47:40,760 --> 02:47:43,920
Speaker 14: Yeah, So June eleventh started as a day of solidarity

2962
02:47:44,040 --> 02:47:49,480
Speaker 14: with Jeff Wors when he was serving like a twenty

2963
02:47:49,520 --> 02:47:53,800
Speaker 14: two year sentence for torching some SUVs. But eventually he

2964
02:47:54,080 --> 02:47:57,039
Speaker 14: was able to get his sentence shortened and he got out.

2965
02:47:58,000 --> 02:48:02,000
Speaker 14: And at that point, Marius May and Eric McDavid were

2966
02:48:02,080 --> 02:48:07,200
Speaker 14: in prison with twenty year sentences for eco sabotage activity

2967
02:48:07,560 --> 02:48:12,200
Speaker 14: or in Eric's case, being entrapped for such and so

2968
02:48:13,280 --> 02:48:16,200
Speaker 14: it eventually changed to be about Marius and Eric after

2969
02:48:17,200 --> 02:48:20,800
Speaker 14: Jeff was released, and then Eric McDavid also got out

2970
02:48:20,840 --> 02:48:23,959
Speaker 14: of prison, and since then it expanded to all long

2971
02:48:24,040 --> 02:48:25,119
Speaker 14: term anarchist prisoners.

2972
02:48:25,879 --> 02:48:28,240
Speaker 4: I wonder, like, obviously we're in like eight point ouns.

2973
02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:31,640
Speaker 4: People have a few months before June eleventh, and they

2974
02:48:31,720 --> 02:48:35,040
Speaker 4: might be interested in doing this. They might not know

2975
02:48:35,160 --> 02:48:38,400
Speaker 4: any people directly they're incarcerated, or they might not have

2976
02:48:38,520 --> 02:48:41,240
Speaker 4: had an experience with that sort of in their close circles.

2977
02:48:41,320 --> 02:48:45,039
Speaker 4: So if we start with like how people can show

2978
02:48:45,120 --> 02:48:48,760
Speaker 4: solidarity like to incarcerated people, I think that would be great.

2979
02:48:49,400 --> 02:48:51,880
Speaker 4: So are there like things that people can do How

2980
02:48:51,959 --> 02:48:55,080
Speaker 4: can they do that, like so that people I guess

2981
02:48:55,120 --> 02:48:58,520
Speaker 4: people who are incarcerated can hear them or hear from them.

2982
02:48:59,240 --> 02:49:01,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean read letters is kind of the classic

2983
02:49:01,560 --> 02:49:05,200
Speaker 7: go to. There's also ways to communicate digitally or over

2984
02:49:05,280 --> 02:49:08,960
Speaker 7: the phone with people locked up. You know, putting money

2985
02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:12,200
Speaker 7: on someone's books goes a long way. Everything is extremely

2986
02:49:12,280 --> 02:49:16,480
Speaker 7: overpriced in prison and and monopolized by the corporations that

2987
02:49:17,200 --> 02:49:21,039
Speaker 7: provide that those services. But I mean, if if you're

2988
02:49:21,080 --> 02:49:23,320
Speaker 7: looking for people, you have stuff in coming with they're

2989
02:49:23,360 --> 02:49:28,000
Speaker 7: particularly political things kind of carrying on the struggle and

2990
02:49:28,040 --> 02:49:31,760
Speaker 7: including their name in those activities as part of that.

2991
02:49:31,959 --> 02:49:36,560
Speaker 7: And and if you are in communication with them, talking

2992
02:49:36,600 --> 02:49:40,000
Speaker 7: to them about those things. Getting their input and helping

2993
02:49:40,040 --> 02:49:45,360
Speaker 7: them feel included in those struggles goes possibly the longest way.

2994
02:49:46,000 --> 02:49:46,200
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2995
02:49:46,320 --> 02:49:49,200
Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point because, like when

2996
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:52,320
Speaker 1: you're talking about someone, for example, who's been like entrapped

2997
02:49:52,520 --> 02:49:55,800
Speaker 1: by by the FEDS or whatever law enforcement agency was

2998
02:49:55,920 --> 02:50:00,240
Speaker 1: responsible for it, like you're you're talking about a a

2999
02:50:00,400 --> 02:50:05,920
Speaker 1: strategic pattern that the state uses to clamp down on resistance,

3000
02:50:06,200 --> 02:50:11,879
Speaker 1: and the efficacy of that strategy is entirely determined by

3001
02:50:11,920 --> 02:50:15,920
Speaker 1: their ability to kind of break people and to break

3002
02:50:16,040 --> 02:50:19,760
Speaker 1: movements by both making people suspicious of each other and

3003
02:50:20,000 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 1: by you know, locking up and damaging the people who

3004
02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:27,800
Speaker 1: are kind of most prone to action. And I think

3005
02:50:28,040 --> 02:50:31,440
Speaker 1: doing stuff like this like not only helps kind of

3006
02:50:31,560 --> 02:50:35,160
Speaker 1: heal those the distrust that is inherently planted by the

3007
02:50:35,240 --> 02:50:37,440
Speaker 1: state when they do stuff like this, but also helps

3008
02:50:38,320 --> 02:50:41,520
Speaker 1: the people who are kind of most targeted and who

3009
02:50:41,560 --> 02:50:44,760
Speaker 1: have suffered the most for the cause not feel like

3010
02:50:44,840 --> 02:50:46,800
Speaker 1: they're swinging in the wind, you know.

3011
02:50:47,800 --> 02:50:51,560
Speaker 14: Yeah, I think it helps mitigate the fear of repression

3012
02:50:51,680 --> 02:50:56,280
Speaker 14: and arrests and especially things like terrorism enhancements. When people

3013
02:50:56,440 --> 02:50:58,680
Speaker 14: know that they're not going to be alone when they're

3014
02:50:58,680 --> 02:51:01,320
Speaker 14: in prison, even if it is for decades, like there's

3015
02:51:01,360 --> 02:51:03,600
Speaker 14: going to be people supporting them and writing them and

3016
02:51:04,080 --> 02:51:06,840
Speaker 14: fundraising for them and like including them in their projects

3017
02:51:06,920 --> 02:51:07,840
Speaker 14: like the entire time.

3018
02:51:08,520 --> 02:51:12,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would say too that meantime a movement or

3019
02:51:12,600 --> 02:51:17,120
Speaker 7: something becomes more effective, they become the focus of the

3020
02:51:17,200 --> 02:51:19,440
Speaker 7: state tends to sharpen on them.

3021
02:51:19,520 --> 02:51:20,039
Speaker 3: And and.

3022
02:51:21,720 --> 02:51:23,560
Speaker 7: A lot of the prisoners that have been supported around

3023
02:51:23,560 --> 02:51:26,320
Speaker 7: the junior levels they have solidarity, were involved in environmental

3024
02:51:26,400 --> 02:51:32,680
Speaker 7: analytes activities that were particularly effective and particularly destructive in

3025
02:51:32,800 --> 02:51:37,480
Speaker 7: a positive sense, particularly like the alf and eof actions

3026
02:51:37,480 --> 02:51:44,320
Speaker 7: of the nineties. But on this very intense repression in

3027
02:51:44,360 --> 02:51:46,160
Speaker 7: the early two thousands that came to be called the

3028
02:51:46,240 --> 02:51:46,800
Speaker 7: Green Scare.

3029
02:51:47,360 --> 02:51:50,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, kind of our our theme for this year is

3030
02:51:50,959 --> 02:51:55,000
Speaker 14: that that repression like doesn't work. All these like movements

3031
02:51:55,040 --> 02:51:59,800
Speaker 14: and struggles and activities continue even despite that kind of repression.

3032
02:52:00,120 --> 02:52:03,879
Speaker 14: There's still activity in defense of the earth and animals

3033
02:52:04,280 --> 02:52:08,600
Speaker 14: and land defense, and there's still really militant queer self defense,

3034
02:52:08,640 --> 02:52:10,840
Speaker 14: and there's still a lot of like a ton of

3035
02:52:10,920 --> 02:52:14,280
Speaker 14: activity against police and against racist police violence and murder,

3036
02:52:14,640 --> 02:52:17,120
Speaker 14: and like as much of those as much as those

3037
02:52:17,160 --> 02:52:19,440
Speaker 14: things are repressed, like, it doesn't stop them, and they

3038
02:52:19,600 --> 02:52:20,840
Speaker 14: just keep getting stronger.

3039
02:52:21,360 --> 02:52:22,840
Speaker 13: I think the only thing I would add to that

3040
02:52:23,000 --> 02:52:25,880
Speaker 13: is one of the most important things about doing political

3041
02:52:25,959 --> 02:52:29,800
Speaker 13: prisoner support or prisoner support in general, is that the

3042
02:52:29,879 --> 02:52:36,880
Speaker 13: state really does work to criminalize politically motivated behavior and

3043
02:52:37,000 --> 02:52:43,280
Speaker 13: politically motivated beliefs, which functions pretty effectively to distract from

3044
02:52:43,400 --> 02:52:46,720
Speaker 13: the central message of social movements, whatever social movement it

3045
02:52:46,800 --> 02:52:52,800
Speaker 13: may be. And providing prisoner support and continuing to keep

3046
02:52:53,000 --> 02:52:57,080
Speaker 13: people who are in prison apprized of those struggles, continuing

3047
02:52:57,200 --> 02:53:02,480
Speaker 13: to engage in those struggles can really function to refocus

3048
02:53:03,360 --> 02:53:08,240
Speaker 13: on that central message, even despite the fact that state

3049
02:53:08,320 --> 02:53:13,520
Speaker 13: repression is a very effective drain on movement resources and

3050
02:53:13,600 --> 02:53:16,600
Speaker 13: a very effective distraction from movement messaging.

3051
02:53:17,160 --> 02:53:18,840
Speaker 4: That is super important. Like if we look at like

3052
02:53:19,160 --> 02:53:22,720
Speaker 4: the movement for Black Lives or the George Floyd uprising,

3053
02:53:23,040 --> 02:53:25,880
Speaker 4: how we want to kind of phrase it, like the

3054
02:53:26,120 --> 02:53:30,360
Speaker 4: speed and like severity with which the state kind of

3055
02:53:30,680 --> 02:53:33,680
Speaker 4: cracked down on that and attempts to infiltrate it, attempted

3056
02:53:33,720 --> 02:53:37,920
Speaker 4: to create suspicion, attempted to create fear was Like I

3057
02:53:38,000 --> 02:53:40,240
Speaker 4: think most people listening might be familiar with that, even

3058
02:53:40,240 --> 02:53:43,000
Speaker 4: if they're not familiar with the Green Scare or like

3059
02:53:43,720 --> 02:53:47,120
Speaker 4: previous incidents. And it's not just like I know we

3060
02:53:47,200 --> 02:53:49,080
Speaker 4: have people listening in other countries. This is not just

3061
02:53:49,360 --> 02:53:54,160
Speaker 4: a America thing, right, Like British cops literally fucking married

3062
02:53:54,280 --> 02:53:59,080
Speaker 4: people in the like in the early two thousands. It's

3063
02:53:59,160 --> 02:54:02,120
Speaker 4: part of their undercover a situation. And one of them

3064
02:54:02,120 --> 02:54:08,680
Speaker 4: also went to clown school, which is funny. That is

3065
02:54:08,720 --> 02:54:11,879
Speaker 4: a charming story. Yeah, well, thank you not to refer to.

3066
02:54:11,840 --> 02:54:13,120
Speaker 13: The police academy that way.

3067
02:54:16,560 --> 02:54:18,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess they all went to clown school in

3068
02:54:18,360 --> 02:54:20,840
Speaker 4: the sense. Yeah, so yeah, we'll do We'll do a

3069
02:54:21,120 --> 02:54:23,320
Speaker 4: long promised clown block episode one day.

3070
02:54:25,200 --> 02:54:25,240
Speaker 12: No.

3071
02:54:25,520 --> 02:54:30,119
Speaker 4: I know you have some insight into Mariu's case as

3072
02:54:30,440 --> 02:54:34,000
Speaker 4: his lawyer, right, so could you explain a little bit

3073
02:54:34,080 --> 02:54:37,120
Speaker 4: about about that case if people can understand how a

3074
02:54:37,200 --> 02:54:43,040
Speaker 4: politically motivated prosecution works in the exupposed justice system that

3075
02:54:43,080 --> 02:54:43,280
Speaker 4: we have.

3076
02:54:44,120 --> 02:54:46,760
Speaker 13: So, just to clarify, I represent Marius now and I

3077
02:54:46,879 --> 02:54:51,000
Speaker 13: do advocacy for him. Well, he is confined. I was

3078
02:54:51,160 --> 02:54:58,480
Speaker 13: not his criminal defense attorney. So Marius was active in

3079
02:54:58,760 --> 02:55:03,000
Speaker 13: the very late nineties in early two thousands, and the

3080
02:55:03,280 --> 02:55:06,960
Speaker 13: investigations that were going on at that time in the

3081
02:55:07,000 --> 02:55:13,720
Speaker 13: state repression that was focused on the movements against environmental

3082
02:55:13,800 --> 02:55:21,680
Speaker 13: degradation was deep and concerted and went on for many,

3083
02:55:21,760 --> 02:55:24,800
Speaker 13: many years. And that's sort of what we refer to

3084
02:55:24,879 --> 02:55:30,200
Speaker 13: as the green scare, right, the criminalizing of environmental movements.

3085
02:55:30,760 --> 02:55:34,800
Speaker 13: And I talk about criminalized behavior and criminalized identity a lot,

3086
02:55:34,879 --> 02:55:36,520
Speaker 13: so I'm actually just going to take a second and.

3087
02:55:36,560 --> 02:55:39,720
Speaker 4: Explain what I mean by that, yes, please, So.

3088
02:55:40,640 --> 02:55:46,080
Speaker 13: The criminalization of identity refers to where law enforcement and

3089
02:55:46,160 --> 02:55:54,320
Speaker 13: the state are monitoring, targeting identity rather than unlawful conduct.

3090
02:55:55,400 --> 02:56:02,480
Speaker 13: And the criminalization of belief. Similarly, it refers to the

3091
02:56:02,600 --> 02:56:07,560
Speaker 13: state targeting people on the basis of their beliefs rather

3092
02:56:07,680 --> 02:56:13,560
Speaker 13: than on the basis of unlawful conduct. So movements, social movements.

3093
02:56:13,600 --> 02:56:16,560
Speaker 13: There's a very long and well documented history of social

3094
02:56:16,680 --> 02:56:21,879
Speaker 13: movements being criminalized by the state, even in the absence

3095
02:56:21,959 --> 02:56:28,320
Speaker 13: of any unlawful behavior. So the movements against environmental degradation

3096
02:56:29,320 --> 02:56:36,320
Speaker 13: were heavily policed, targeted, infiltrated, and many federal grand juries

3097
02:56:36,640 --> 02:56:45,280
Speaker 13: and setups and entrapments and successful prosecutions stemmed from that

3098
02:56:45,560 --> 02:56:52,760
Speaker 13: criminalizing of environmental movements, and Marius's case was among those. Basically,

3099
02:56:53,000 --> 02:56:57,440
Speaker 13: the state managed to turn Marius's former partner into an

3100
02:56:57,480 --> 02:57:06,280
Speaker 13: asset and effectively charged him, prosecuted him for several acts

3101
02:57:06,400 --> 02:57:11,959
Speaker 13: of politically motivated destruction of property, all of which were

3102
02:57:12,480 --> 02:57:18,480
Speaker 13: calculated not to harm human beings. He pled guilty and

3103
02:57:19,000 --> 02:57:25,680
Speaker 13: was sentenced in two thousand and nine. Had the offenses

3104
02:57:25,840 --> 02:57:30,480
Speaker 13: to which he pled guilty not been perceived as politically motivated,

3105
02:57:30,520 --> 02:57:35,400
Speaker 13: he would have probably gotten about seven years because the

3106
02:57:35,520 --> 02:57:41,640
Speaker 13: prosecution argued that his behavior was politically motivated, which I

3107
02:57:41,720 --> 02:57:48,400
Speaker 13: mean I think is true. He was hit with a

3108
02:57:48,520 --> 02:57:57,440
Speaker 13: terrorism enhancement which increased the severity of his punishment on

3109
02:57:57,640 --> 02:58:02,360
Speaker 13: the basis of house serious an offender he was then

3110
02:58:02,480 --> 02:58:08,760
Speaker 13: deemed to be. The prosecution asked for twenty years. The

3111
02:58:08,959 --> 02:58:13,520
Speaker 13: judge imposed twenty two. So here's an example of how

3112
02:58:14,520 --> 02:58:20,080
Speaker 13: beliefs are criminalized. At his sentencing, the judge and the

3113
02:58:20,160 --> 02:58:25,560
Speaker 13: prosecution both invoked and referred to what I think most

3114
02:58:25,600 --> 02:58:31,400
Speaker 13: of us would view as really unremarkable political behavior in

3115
02:58:31,560 --> 02:58:37,440
Speaker 13: ways that really cast it as very sinister. And so

3116
02:58:38,080 --> 02:58:43,440
Speaker 13: Marius's contact with people who were on his support committee,

3117
02:58:44,640 --> 02:58:49,080
Speaker 13: who were engaged in various kinds of civil disobedience about

3118
02:58:49,120 --> 02:58:55,120
Speaker 13: which Marius likely knew nothing was cast as Marius being

3119
02:58:55,240 --> 02:59:00,240
Speaker 13: in continued contact with people engaged in crimes as a

3120
02:59:00,360 --> 02:59:04,680
Speaker 13: violation or would have been a violation of his bond conditions.

3121
02:59:05,360 --> 02:59:08,560
Speaker 13: And on the basis of that claim that Marius was

3122
02:59:08,720 --> 02:59:11,680
Speaker 13: violating his bond conditions by being in touch with these

3123
02:59:11,760 --> 02:59:15,119
Speaker 13: people who again were engaged in what I think most

3124
02:59:15,200 --> 02:59:21,279
Speaker 13: of us would see as completely unremarkable civil disobedience constitutionally

3125
02:59:21,320 --> 02:59:25,200
Speaker 13: protected political behavior. This was one of the bases on

3126
02:59:25,400 --> 02:59:29,880
Speaker 13: which the judge imposed this sentence that was even longer

3127
02:59:30,760 --> 02:59:34,520
Speaker 13: than the prosecution had asked for. And there's a number

3128
02:59:34,560 --> 02:59:38,960
Speaker 13: of other examples of this kind of criminalization of routine

3129
02:59:39,040 --> 02:59:42,200
Speaker 13: political behavior, one of which is very significant, which is

3130
02:59:42,800 --> 02:59:45,240
Speaker 13: that when Marius finally went to prison, he started a

3131
02:59:45,320 --> 02:59:49,200
Speaker 13: reading group, and based on the content of the books

3132
02:59:49,280 --> 02:59:54,560
Speaker 13: that they were reading, he was transferred from a lower

3133
02:59:54,680 --> 03:00:00,240
Speaker 13: security facility pretty close to his family, to facility, and

3134
03:00:00,400 --> 03:00:04,240
Speaker 13: not just a facility, but a particular wing of a facility,

3135
03:00:04,280 --> 03:00:09,199
Speaker 13: which was the administrative segregation unit at FMC Carswell in Texas,

3136
03:00:09,240 --> 03:00:13,560
Speaker 13: which was much much farther from his family and was

3137
03:00:14,080 --> 03:00:17,400
Speaker 13: involved all kinds of extremely stringent conditions that I would

3138
03:00:17,480 --> 03:00:22,480
Speaker 13: argue were First Amendment violations, So you know, we see

3139
03:00:22,560 --> 03:00:29,279
Speaker 13: not only the really intense surveillance and targeting of social movements,

3140
03:00:29,400 --> 03:00:37,880
Speaker 13: but the really disproportionate punishments and sort of retaliatory behaviors

3141
03:00:38,440 --> 03:00:41,880
Speaker 13: all the way down, all the way from investigation to

3142
03:00:42,720 --> 03:00:45,959
Speaker 13: through to incarceration and conditions of confinement.

3143
03:00:46,560 --> 03:00:52,520
Speaker 4: That's trotious obviously, So I wonder like when he received those, like,

3144
03:00:52,800 --> 03:00:55,200
Speaker 4: maybe perhaps you should first explain what a terrorism enhancement

3145
03:00:55,360 --> 03:00:56,680
Speaker 4: is in case people aren't familiar.

3146
03:00:57,440 --> 03:01:01,480
Speaker 13: It is what's called a sentencing in hand, and it allows,

3147
03:01:01,640 --> 03:01:06,800
Speaker 13: it authorizes, or in some cases requires a judge to

3148
03:01:06,959 --> 03:01:10,840
Speaker 13: impose a harsher sentence for a behavior that's intended to

3149
03:01:12,640 --> 03:01:15,760
Speaker 13: I don't remember what the exact language is, but it's

3150
03:01:16,480 --> 03:01:20,600
Speaker 13: it imposes a harsher sentence for unlawful acts that are

3151
03:01:20,640 --> 03:01:26,519
Speaker 13: intended to intimidate or coerce the public or public institutions.

3152
03:01:27,080 --> 03:01:30,920
Speaker 4: Okay, so that's what increased like nitty triple that sentence

3153
03:01:31,480 --> 03:01:35,400
Speaker 4: in that case. Yeah, and with that specifically, like because

3154
03:01:35,800 --> 03:01:39,360
Speaker 4: he'd express anarchist ideas or just because it was like

3155
03:01:39,480 --> 03:01:44,199
Speaker 4: his actions were in sort of further into that liberation

3156
03:01:44,360 --> 03:01:45,680
Speaker 4: front kind of goals.

3157
03:01:46,360 --> 03:01:50,359
Speaker 13: I think it was explicitly because it was an ELF

3158
03:01:50,959 --> 03:01:51,920
Speaker 13: associated action.

3159
03:01:52,160 --> 03:01:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yeah, it was part of this crackdown on

3160
03:01:56,120 --> 03:01:59,080
Speaker 1: environmental movements. It's similar to what we're saying in Atlanta

3161
03:01:59,200 --> 03:02:02,359
Speaker 1: right now, like right down to the terrorism enhancements.

3162
03:02:04,040 --> 03:02:06,200
Speaker 13: What we're seeing in Atlanta right now is actually a

3163
03:02:06,240 --> 03:02:10,200
Speaker 13: little bit more astonishing just in terms of first of all,

3164
03:02:10,240 --> 03:02:13,959
Speaker 13: we're not really seeing it necessarily a terrorism enhancement. There

3165
03:02:14,040 --> 03:02:17,920
Speaker 13: is a statute that criminalizes what they are calling domestic terrorism.

3166
03:02:19,040 --> 03:02:22,600
Speaker 13: It operates similarly, right, there's a predicate act and then

3167
03:02:22,680 --> 03:02:26,640
Speaker 13: if it's politically motivated, you know, so you could, for example,

3168
03:02:26,840 --> 03:02:32,160
Speaker 13: potentially have something like politically motivated trespass right or politically

3169
03:02:32,240 --> 03:02:37,560
Speaker 13: motivated graffiti, and they could charge it as domestic terrorism.

3170
03:02:38,480 --> 03:02:44,400
Speaker 13: The enhancement is a sentencing mechanism, but it certainly is

3171
03:02:44,520 --> 03:02:47,520
Speaker 13: not new. What we're seeing in Atlanta, I would say,

3172
03:02:47,640 --> 03:02:54,720
Speaker 13: is it is remarkable, but it is a continuation of

3173
03:02:54,840 --> 03:02:59,720
Speaker 13: the same kind of targeted policing, efforts to chill social

3174
03:02:59,760 --> 03:03:05,880
Speaker 13: mod movements, efforts to disrupt social movements, to isolate people

3175
03:03:06,080 --> 03:03:10,840
Speaker 13: to fractionate movements. It's the same kind of thing that

3176
03:03:10,920 --> 03:03:15,600
Speaker 13: we have seen really since the beginning of policing in

3177
03:03:15,680 --> 03:03:16,920
Speaker 13: this country, and.

3178
03:03:16,959 --> 03:03:18,600
Speaker 4: That makes a lot of sense when you consider like

3179
03:03:18,720 --> 03:03:23,120
Speaker 4: the role of the police within the state and the

3180
03:03:23,240 --> 03:03:26,039
Speaker 4: goals of some of these social movements, right, which we're

3181
03:03:26,040 --> 03:03:27,920
Speaker 4: pretty to have to explain that in detail for people

3182
03:03:27,959 --> 03:03:32,720
Speaker 4: to understand what's going on. So like with these people

3183
03:03:32,800 --> 03:03:35,359
Speaker 4: facing you mentioned a couple of the other people who

3184
03:03:35,360 --> 03:03:39,400
Speaker 4: would face political persecutions and were incarcerated and then had

3185
03:03:39,440 --> 03:03:43,560
Speaker 4: their sentences reduced, and maybe we could explain like how

3186
03:03:44,240 --> 03:03:46,320
Speaker 4: that was able to happen, right, because that's obviously like

3187
03:03:46,400 --> 03:03:47,400
Speaker 4: a desirable outcome.

3188
03:03:48,520 --> 03:03:52,360
Speaker 14: I don't know the like the legal things that happened

3189
03:03:52,440 --> 03:03:53,360
Speaker 14: for that, but it was like.

3190
03:03:54,879 --> 03:03:56,720
Speaker 9: It was like in the coret room kind of a solution.

3191
03:03:56,920 --> 03:04:00,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm curious, just kind of engener role since

3192
03:04:00,720 --> 03:04:03,760
Speaker 1: you've all had more contact with these folks who are

3193
03:04:04,000 --> 03:04:07,320
Speaker 1: incarcerated and have been kind of the victims of this

3194
03:04:08,200 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 1: state violence when they talk about like what is kind

3195
03:04:12,080 --> 03:04:15,520
Speaker 1: of meaningful to them in terms of outside connections, in

3196
03:04:15,640 --> 03:04:17,840
Speaker 1: terms of like, you know what we're talking about here,

3197
03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:21,080
Speaker 1: what kind of stuff do they bring up is like

3198
03:04:21,200 --> 03:04:24,640
Speaker 1: having a positive impact on their mental health, on their

3199
03:04:24,879 --> 03:04:27,920
Speaker 1: kind of ability to endure they're what they're going through.

3200
03:04:28,840 --> 03:04:30,920
Speaker 14: First, I would say that communication is a big thing,

3201
03:04:31,040 --> 03:04:33,480
Speaker 14: like being able to talk to people, to write with people,

3202
03:04:34,600 --> 03:04:38,520
Speaker 14: and you know, a long term like regular correspondence is great.

3203
03:04:38,600 --> 03:04:42,360
Speaker 14: But even just like little messages of solidarity can be

3204
03:04:42,480 --> 03:04:47,640
Speaker 14: really meaningful. Material support is always huge, Like that's going

3205
03:04:47,680 --> 03:04:49,440
Speaker 14: to make somebody sound a little bit better if they

3206
03:04:49,480 --> 03:04:52,000
Speaker 14: can get stuff off a commissary, you know, buy enough stamps,

3207
03:04:52,000 --> 03:04:54,800
Speaker 14: all those things. But the thing that I hear a

3208
03:04:54,879 --> 03:04:59,400
Speaker 14: lot is like people want to see the projects and

3209
03:04:59,440 --> 03:05:03,879
Speaker 14: the struggles that they're involved in continue. So if that's

3210
03:05:04,000 --> 03:05:06,680
Speaker 14: like defense of the earth, if that's against the police

3211
03:05:06,800 --> 03:05:10,039
Speaker 14: or or whatever it is, like people like to see

3212
03:05:10,120 --> 03:05:13,400
Speaker 14: that because it's you know, it's not just about their

3213
03:05:13,440 --> 03:05:15,720
Speaker 14: own case, but yeah, about those movements that they come

3214
03:05:15,800 --> 03:05:20,680
Speaker 14: from and or somebody's you know, radicalized inside these things

3215
03:05:20,680 --> 03:05:25,520
Speaker 14: that they have committed to and been written from participating

3216
03:05:25,600 --> 03:05:29,760
Speaker 14: in a huge way, not entirely, but you know, people

3217
03:05:29,879 --> 03:05:33,920
Speaker 14: like to see to see that continue and see see victories,

3218
03:05:34,080 --> 03:05:36,520
Speaker 14: see like creative attempts and things like that.

3219
03:05:37,360 --> 03:05:39,720
Speaker 4: That makes a lot of sense, I think, so for

3220
03:05:39,840 --> 03:05:42,800
Speaker 4: people like I know, like I'll sort that right to

3221
03:05:42,840 --> 03:05:46,880
Speaker 4: incarcerate to people for the various things. And it can

3222
03:05:46,920 --> 03:05:50,119
Speaker 4: be quite difficult to like to work out the process

3223
03:05:50,160 --> 03:05:53,840
Speaker 4: of doing that, and it can be especially difficult. It

3224
03:05:53,959 --> 03:05:56,760
Speaker 4: was especially difficult during during like the worst of the

3225
03:05:56,840 --> 03:06:00,840
Speaker 4: COVID kind of lockdowns and search and like you couldn't.

3226
03:06:00,920 --> 03:06:02,680
Speaker 4: I was trying to write to a guy in one

3227
03:06:03,000 --> 03:06:07,039
Speaker 4: federal in tear hote and they wouldn't let the person

3228
03:06:07,160 --> 03:06:09,280
Speaker 4: email me because they claimed that the keyboard was like

3229
03:06:09,360 --> 03:06:12,360
Speaker 4: a high touch surface and this yeah, right, like and

3230
03:06:12,959 --> 03:06:17,160
Speaker 4: which people were getting COVID in this facility all the time.

3231
03:06:18,760 --> 03:06:21,280
Speaker 4: But how would folks go about, like, let's say they

3232
03:06:21,360 --> 03:06:23,360
Speaker 4: wanted to to write to Marius and just say, like,

3233
03:06:24,879 --> 03:06:27,480
Speaker 4: you know, we wanted to express the solidarity and say

3234
03:06:28,040 --> 03:06:29,520
Speaker 4: sucks that this is happening to you or whatever. How

3235
03:06:29,560 --> 03:06:30,600
Speaker 4: would they go about doing that.

3236
03:06:31,520 --> 03:06:32,240
Speaker 9: There's a couple of.

3237
03:06:32,280 --> 03:06:35,240
Speaker 13: Things that are specific with Marius that I will want

3238
03:06:35,280 --> 03:06:37,920
Speaker 13: to tell you, but you can go to if you

3239
03:06:37,959 --> 03:06:43,840
Speaker 13: google inmate locator bop, you can search Marius's name or

3240
03:06:43,920 --> 03:06:48,280
Speaker 13: the name of any other prisoner and you'll basically end

3241
03:06:48,400 --> 03:06:54,200
Speaker 13: up with it'll show you their information, including where they

3242
03:06:54,280 --> 03:06:58,640
Speaker 13: are confined, and you can usually click on the name

3243
03:06:58,680 --> 03:07:00,960
Speaker 13: of the facility and it will take you to the

3244
03:07:01,000 --> 03:07:04,240
Speaker 13: website for that facility and show you how to send

3245
03:07:04,320 --> 03:07:08,480
Speaker 13: mail to the prisoner. There's also if you go to

3246
03:07:09,000 --> 03:07:14,680
Speaker 13: NYCABC dot WordPress dot com or any of the other

3247
03:07:15,160 --> 03:07:21,080
Speaker 13: Anarchist Black Cross websites. NYC ABC is my home chapter,

3248
03:07:21,320 --> 03:07:24,000
Speaker 13: so that's the one I'm familiar with. But if you

3249
03:07:24,080 --> 03:07:27,840
Speaker 13: go to the Anarchist Black Cross websites, there are zines

3250
03:07:27,879 --> 03:07:30,600
Speaker 13: and I think a whole list that is pretty well

3251
03:07:30,720 --> 03:07:36,039
Speaker 13: updated of all of the anarchists political prisoners and instructions

3252
03:07:36,080 --> 03:07:39,039
Speaker 13: on how to write to them. One of the things

3253
03:07:39,320 --> 03:07:42,760
Speaker 13: that is on those websites that I would highly encourage

3254
03:07:42,800 --> 03:07:49,640
Speaker 13: you to take seriously our instructions about how to responsibly

3255
03:07:49,720 --> 03:07:54,959
Speaker 13: write to people who are under increased monitoring and surveillance

3256
03:07:55,560 --> 03:08:02,280
Speaker 13: while they are being confined. Because retaliation against prisoners, even

3257
03:08:02,400 --> 03:08:06,760
Speaker 13: for things that the prisoners themselves have not done, is

3258
03:08:07,480 --> 03:08:11,240
Speaker 13: very commonplace. And so if somebody while we very much

3259
03:08:11,320 --> 03:08:13,640
Speaker 13: want to make sure we keep in touch with people

3260
03:08:14,240 --> 03:08:17,440
Speaker 13: and give them news of the outside world, including news

3261
03:08:17,480 --> 03:08:21,000
Speaker 13: about their social movements, one thing that can happen is

3262
03:08:21,160 --> 03:08:25,160
Speaker 13: that those letters simply will not be delivered. And another

3263
03:08:25,280 --> 03:08:28,039
Speaker 13: thing that might happen is that the prisoner themselves may

3264
03:08:28,680 --> 03:08:34,119
Speaker 13: face disciplinary consequences, formally or informally just as a result

3265
03:08:34,240 --> 03:08:38,440
Speaker 13: of having been the intended recipient of that news. So

3266
03:08:39,440 --> 03:08:43,440
Speaker 13: you know, I would say, as I often say, discretion

3267
03:08:43,680 --> 03:08:44,800
Speaker 13: is the better part of valor.

3268
03:08:45,320 --> 03:08:47,920
Speaker 4: In this instance, I think you have to have.

3269
03:08:49,480 --> 03:08:52,520
Speaker 1: A kind of a first do no harm attitude about this,

3270
03:08:52,760 --> 03:08:56,400
Speaker 1: where like, at the end of the day, regardless of

3271
03:08:56,600 --> 03:08:59,520
Speaker 1: like your anger or your desire to talk about, you know,

3272
03:09:00,160 --> 03:09:04,240
Speaker 1: certain things, your primary concern here has to be not

3273
03:09:04,440 --> 03:09:08,199
Speaker 1: making things worse for somebody who's already in a terrible situation.

3274
03:09:09,000 --> 03:09:11,720
Speaker 13: Yes, and I would also like to point out that

3275
03:09:12,360 --> 03:09:16,760
Speaker 13: prisoner mail is monitored, and so among other things, you

3276
03:09:16,879 --> 03:09:22,640
Speaker 13: might be making things worse for yourself, so I would

3277
03:09:23,160 --> 03:09:26,960
Speaker 13: be cautious and circumspect about what you write to people

3278
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:30,800
Speaker 13: whose mail is being read. The other thing is with

3279
03:09:30,920 --> 03:09:34,120
Speaker 13: respect to Marius in particular. Unfortunately, in order to get

3280
03:09:34,200 --> 03:09:36,360
Speaker 13: mail to him, you still have to dead name him.

3281
03:09:37,640 --> 03:09:41,000
Speaker 13: And if you want to hear more about that particular

3282
03:09:41,120 --> 03:09:43,880
Speaker 13: set of struggles, I'm happy to talk about it. But

3283
03:09:44,560 --> 03:09:47,520
Speaker 13: suffice it to say for now that if you go

3284
03:09:47,760 --> 03:09:52,400
Speaker 13: to support Mariusmason dot org, there should be some instructions

3285
03:09:52,640 --> 03:09:54,600
Speaker 13: about how to write to him, and I'll make sure

3286
03:09:54,640 --> 03:09:58,320
Speaker 13: that the support group puts up clear instructions, but unfortunately

3287
03:09:58,440 --> 03:10:01,240
Speaker 13: you do have to put his dead name on that

3288
03:10:01,440 --> 03:10:02,600
Speaker 13: envelope or it will.

3289
03:10:02,440 --> 03:10:03,160
Speaker 5: Not get to him.

3290
03:10:03,520 --> 03:10:07,119
Speaker 4: It's extremely frustrating, but yeah, it could be really annoying,

3291
03:10:07,120 --> 03:10:10,560
Speaker 4: sespecially if you're trying to look for somebody. I'm using

3292
03:10:10,600 --> 03:10:12,840
Speaker 4: the locator and it has a gender note fire and

3293
03:10:13,320 --> 03:10:17,280
Speaker 4: it's not the correct gender notifier, and yeah, that can

3294
03:10:17,360 --> 03:10:21,800
Speaker 4: be difficult, but like, yeah, it's an effort worth making, right,

3295
03:10:21,879 --> 03:10:24,680
Speaker 4: and it really can help someone who's going through a

3296
03:10:24,720 --> 03:10:25,400
Speaker 4: difficult time.

3297
03:10:25,959 --> 03:10:29,560
Speaker 13: Yeah, and people do have really specific interests apart from

3298
03:10:29,640 --> 03:10:34,920
Speaker 13: movement work as well. And you know Marius paints. He

3299
03:10:35,000 --> 03:10:37,880
Speaker 13: sent me this incredible He sent me a number of

3300
03:10:38,000 --> 03:10:42,400
Speaker 13: paintings over the years. I have one actually that I

3301
03:10:42,480 --> 03:10:45,160
Speaker 13: think I shared with you earlier Sacho and Vanzetti that

3302
03:10:45,280 --> 03:10:48,440
Speaker 13: he made. He sent me a really great portrait of

3303
03:10:48,560 --> 03:10:53,400
Speaker 13: Jimmy Page once. He also recently sent me a beautiful

3304
03:10:53,520 --> 03:10:57,840
Speaker 13: scarf that he had knitted or crocheted. I guess people

3305
03:10:57,920 --> 03:11:01,320
Speaker 13: have hobbies, people have interests, and they're happy to talk about.

3306
03:11:01,120 --> 03:11:02,000
Speaker 3: Those things as well.

3307
03:11:03,040 --> 03:11:05,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what makes us like a whole person, right,

3308
03:11:05,320 --> 03:11:07,400
Speaker 4: And I think having a little bit of that helps

3309
03:11:07,440 --> 03:11:10,440
Speaker 4: you to keep that little part of yourself in what

3310
03:11:10,560 --> 03:11:12,959
Speaker 4: could be a difficult place. So yeah, hope people can

3311
03:11:13,280 --> 03:11:17,000
Speaker 4: send crochet letters. I'm sure we have some keen croche listeners.

3312
03:11:17,560 --> 03:11:19,160
Speaker 4: This is probably the part of the podcast where we

3313
03:11:19,240 --> 03:11:23,120
Speaker 4: stop and make ourselves amenable to capitalism by doing an

3314
03:11:23,120 --> 03:11:29,080
Speaker 4: ad break. I wonder what can people do on June eleventh,

3315
03:11:29,520 --> 03:11:33,320
Speaker 4: right right? Obviously, like people should keep on this ongoing correspondence.

3316
03:11:33,320 --> 03:11:35,640
Speaker 4: I think that's really important. And I would speaking to

3317
03:11:35,720 --> 03:11:38,520
Speaker 4: someone from their Leonard Peltier free lended peltya group the

3318
03:11:38,600 --> 03:11:40,280
Speaker 4: other day, and I know a lot of people write

3319
03:11:40,280 --> 03:11:42,240
Speaker 4: to lend A Peltier and like, I know that that's

3320
03:11:43,080 --> 03:11:45,240
Speaker 4: a great source of like strength for him, especially as

3321
03:11:45,280 --> 03:11:49,680
Speaker 4: he's like aging in prison. I was wondering what people

3322
03:11:49,720 --> 03:11:52,920
Speaker 4: could do on June eleventh to sort of further discourse,

3323
03:11:52,959 --> 03:11:56,080
Speaker 4: spread the word take actions to solidarity kind of things

3324
03:11:56,080 --> 03:11:56,680
Speaker 4: to people.

3325
03:11:56,840 --> 03:12:02,760
Speaker 7: Do Juna elevens activities. You know, actions and solidarity really

3326
03:12:02,840 --> 03:12:05,560
Speaker 7: run the gambit. You know, It's been very popular to

3327
03:12:06,000 --> 03:12:09,760
Speaker 7: have like a barbecue or a benefit show things to

3328
03:12:09,840 --> 03:12:14,280
Speaker 7: raise money, and then there's actions that more have more

3329
03:12:14,280 --> 03:12:17,920
Speaker 7: in common with why some of these people were incarcerated. Uh,

3330
03:12:18,160 --> 03:12:21,240
Speaker 7: and like if you check the website June eleven dot org.

3331
03:12:21,720 --> 03:12:25,520
Speaker 7: There's a list of previous actions that people have taken

3332
03:12:25,840 --> 03:12:31,720
Speaker 7: and the whole uh gambit of activities that you know,

3333
03:12:31,760 --> 03:12:37,280
Speaker 7: people have participated in. I know, with the revitalization of

3334
03:12:37,680 --> 03:12:41,879
Speaker 7: of this as like an international base of solidarity, there

3335
03:12:42,040 --> 03:12:45,280
Speaker 7: was an interest in trying to think outside the box more.

3336
03:12:45,400 --> 03:12:49,080
Speaker 7: You know, it's it's difficult to like, no one's going

3337
03:12:49,120 --> 03:12:52,480
Speaker 7: to reinvent the wheel, or you know, maybe they that's

3338
03:12:52,480 --> 03:12:56,240
Speaker 7: as much as they're doing. But but there is a

3339
03:12:56,360 --> 03:12:58,400
Speaker 7: variety different activities. In last year's theme was sort of

3340
03:12:58,480 --> 03:13:02,840
Speaker 7: like doing something different than you might normally do, just

3341
03:13:03,720 --> 03:13:05,240
Speaker 7: diversify what is happening.

3342
03:13:05,879 --> 03:13:08,320
Speaker 14: One of my dreams for John eleventh is for it

3343
03:13:08,440 --> 03:13:12,640
Speaker 14: to be an opportunity for you know, our movement prisoners

3344
03:13:12,680 --> 03:13:15,640
Speaker 14: to be integrated into other things. So it's you know,

3345
03:13:15,720 --> 03:13:17,360
Speaker 14: it doesn't have to just be oh, this is like

3346
03:13:17,520 --> 03:13:19,680
Speaker 14: the prisoner support to activity, or like we're just going

3347
03:13:19,720 --> 03:13:22,200
Speaker 14: to write letters. But you know, people do things like

3348
03:13:22,800 --> 03:13:26,080
Speaker 14: art shows like mo mentioned like a lot of people paint,

3349
03:13:26,280 --> 03:13:29,120
Speaker 14: a lot of people write poetry, and to integrate that

3350
03:13:29,280 --> 03:13:33,160
Speaker 14: into like maybe already have like you know, a community

3351
03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:37,040
Speaker 14: around poetry readings, or something like that, and just to

3352
03:13:37,160 --> 03:13:39,840
Speaker 14: bring that into into whatever like little corner of the

3353
03:13:39,879 --> 03:13:43,160
Speaker 14: world or whatever kind of activities that were already involved

3354
03:13:43,200 --> 03:13:46,400
Speaker 14: in for these things to like reference each other, right

3355
03:13:46,480 --> 03:13:50,080
Speaker 14: like we reference our prisoners and they can reference these

3356
03:13:50,600 --> 03:13:53,039
Speaker 14: things that are happening outside that are like integrating them.

3357
03:13:53,959 --> 03:13:59,120
Speaker 13: One of the things that since I've been involved, a

3358
03:13:59,200 --> 03:14:03,240
Speaker 13: lot of times we try to illicit or solicit statements

3359
03:14:03,640 --> 03:14:07,880
Speaker 13: from the people we represent. I have been to a

3360
03:14:08,040 --> 03:14:12,160
Speaker 13: number of really wonderful June eleventh activities that have included

3361
03:14:12,360 --> 03:14:16,279
Speaker 13: an art show, a number of punk shows in various

3362
03:14:16,400 --> 03:14:21,320
Speaker 13: people's basements. And I think as just an individual, I mean,

3363
03:14:21,400 --> 03:14:23,200
Speaker 13: first of all, I think it's a great opportunity to

3364
03:14:24,120 --> 03:14:29,280
Speaker 13: do community building, to do letter writing. But I think

3365
03:14:29,280 --> 03:14:32,840
Speaker 13: it's also something that even if you are, you know,

3366
03:14:33,000 --> 03:14:37,360
Speaker 13: relatively isolated, you know, you can just make a commitment today,

3367
03:14:37,400 --> 03:14:40,320
Speaker 13: I'm gonna send five bucks to somebody's commissary.

3368
03:14:43,240 --> 03:14:43,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3369
03:14:43,560 --> 03:14:43,880
Speaker 9: I think.

3370
03:14:44,360 --> 03:14:47,760
Speaker 13: I was looking back at one of Marius's previous June

3371
03:14:47,760 --> 03:14:50,200
Speaker 13: eleventh statements and one of the things he referred to

3372
03:14:51,080 --> 03:14:57,800
Speaker 13: was a civil rights attorney that he'd worked with was asked,

3373
03:14:58,800 --> 03:15:04,039
Speaker 13: you know, what does the movement need most and he responded,

3374
03:15:04,280 --> 03:15:09,640
Speaker 13: everything is everything, meaning you know, anything, any advocacy that

3375
03:15:09,720 --> 03:15:12,320
Speaker 13: you do in one area will redound to the benefit

3376
03:15:12,480 --> 03:15:14,800
Speaker 13: of all of the rest of us and all of

3377
03:15:14,840 --> 03:15:15,720
Speaker 13: the other areas.

3378
03:15:15,879 --> 03:15:17,400
Speaker 4: And I have found that to be.

3379
03:15:17,480 --> 03:15:19,760
Speaker 13: True, and I have found that specifically to be true

3380
03:15:21,760 --> 03:15:26,800
Speaker 13: even in terms of the legal effects of doing advocacy

3381
03:15:26,920 --> 03:15:32,320
Speaker 13: for Marius has had really huge benefits for other trans

3382
03:15:32,440 --> 03:15:35,480
Speaker 13: folks who are in prison who I've represented, and then

3383
03:15:35,560 --> 03:15:39,959
Speaker 13: doing advocacy for those folks has had really incredible benefits

3384
03:15:40,440 --> 03:15:44,199
Speaker 13: for Marius. So I mean, I think it is materially

3385
03:15:44,320 --> 03:15:48,240
Speaker 13: the case that you know, you struggle where you are,

3386
03:15:48,360 --> 03:15:50,840
Speaker 13: you do what you can on June eleventh or any

3387
03:15:50,920 --> 03:15:51,560
Speaker 13: other day.

3388
03:15:52,080 --> 03:15:54,080
Speaker 3: And you know, you move the needle.

3389
03:15:54,800 --> 03:15:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very well see absolutely, you.

3390
03:15:58,760 --> 03:16:02,360
Speaker 14: Know, Dune eleventh the specific for people who have long sentences,

3391
03:16:02,480 --> 03:16:05,880
Speaker 14: and that's really about like the increased risk of just

3392
03:16:06,000 --> 03:16:08,280
Speaker 14: kind of like falling to the back burner as there's

3393
03:16:08,480 --> 03:16:11,920
Speaker 14: new like waves of struggle and you know, new emergencies

3394
03:16:12,000 --> 03:16:14,880
Speaker 14: and crises all the time. This is an opportunity to

3395
03:16:15,080 --> 03:16:20,360
Speaker 14: like really take a moment, to to really focus on

3396
03:16:20,480 --> 03:16:25,200
Speaker 14: that memory. And so I hope with June eleventh we

3397
03:16:25,280 --> 03:16:29,000
Speaker 14: can like kind of build bridges like generationally, you know,

3398
03:16:29,160 --> 03:16:32,280
Speaker 14: like I wasn't really around with Marius, you know, during

3399
03:16:32,320 --> 03:16:34,960
Speaker 14: the Green Scare and Marius got arrested, and it's something

3400
03:16:35,000 --> 03:16:38,160
Speaker 14: that I learned about and got involved in later. And

3401
03:16:38,240 --> 03:16:41,040
Speaker 14: I hope that, you know, with new people that we

3402
03:16:41,160 --> 03:16:44,000
Speaker 14: meet and new people who like we share projects with,

3403
03:16:45,640 --> 03:16:50,000
Speaker 14: we can tell them about our prisoners. And also you

3404
03:16:50,080 --> 03:16:52,920
Speaker 14: know where I happened to live. There's occasional I meet

3405
03:16:52,959 --> 03:16:55,480
Speaker 14: somebody who used to know Marius from you know, twenty

3406
03:16:55,560 --> 03:16:58,360
Speaker 14: years ago, and so kind of in both directions like

3407
03:16:58,480 --> 03:17:02,000
Speaker 14: into the past and into into the future, like, yeah,

3408
03:17:02,200 --> 03:17:04,320
Speaker 14: just trying to spread awareness about these people.

3409
03:17:04,720 --> 03:17:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think's yeah, I think it's it's so important

3410
03:17:08,480 --> 03:17:12,960
Speaker 1: to look at this as part of a long struggle.

3411
03:17:13,160 --> 03:17:15,480
Speaker 1: And that's you know what you and Moyer are both

3412
03:17:15,560 --> 03:17:18,200
Speaker 1: talking about in terms of it's it's building connections. It's

3413
03:17:19,400 --> 03:17:23,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of this like the sedimentary layer, uh, that

3414
03:17:23,400 --> 03:17:28,880
Speaker 1: that creates the actual foundation for for positive change. And

3415
03:17:29,320 --> 03:17:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, we have there's this kind of Hollywood brain

3416
03:17:32,400 --> 03:17:35,320
Speaker 1: thing I think we all have where where we get

3417
03:17:35,560 --> 03:17:38,400
Speaker 1: bent out of shape when when change doesn't kind of

3418
03:17:38,560 --> 03:17:41,680
Speaker 1: come and in the form of these kind of calamitous

3419
03:17:42,560 --> 03:17:46,760
Speaker 1: moments and and kind of culminations of struggles and stuff.

3420
03:17:46,879 --> 03:17:51,440
Speaker 1: But it's it's, you know, the the process of winning

3421
03:17:51,680 --> 03:17:54,440
Speaker 1: is the process of like part of it is the

3422
03:17:54,520 --> 03:17:59,440
Speaker 1: process of showing up for the people who are uh casualties,

3423
03:17:59,520 --> 03:18:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, who are being.

3424
03:18:01,920 --> 03:18:02,640
Speaker 4: Who are being.

3425
03:18:04,480 --> 03:18:06,560
Speaker 1: Who are suffering the most for it, And part of

3426
03:18:06,600 --> 03:18:10,040
Speaker 1: it is kind of the way in which that allows

3427
03:18:10,080 --> 03:18:13,199
Speaker 1: you to kind of build networks of solidarity that are

3428
03:18:13,400 --> 03:18:16,119
Speaker 1: the necessary foundation for continuing the struggle.

3429
03:18:17,160 --> 03:18:20,280
Speaker 13: Absolutely, I would say that in the years that I've

3430
03:18:20,280 --> 03:18:23,360
Speaker 13: been doing this work, one of the most important parts

3431
03:18:23,400 --> 03:18:27,080
Speaker 13: of it is being really consistent in showing up for

3432
03:18:27,200 --> 03:18:33,800
Speaker 13: the people who are being horrendously punished, because that's the

3433
03:18:33,920 --> 03:18:37,480
Speaker 13: only way that everybody understands that they will be taken

3434
03:18:37,560 --> 03:18:42,880
Speaker 13: care of. Right. But speaking of winning, I do have

3435
03:18:44,160 --> 03:18:47,400
Speaker 13: an update if you have a second on another June

3436
03:18:47,400 --> 03:18:55,120
Speaker 13: eleventh prisoner, Eric King. Yeah, from my beloved colleague Sandy Freeman,

3437
03:18:55,160 --> 03:19:00,920
Speaker 13: who represented him successfully recently and got a not guilty

3438
03:19:01,080 --> 03:19:04,960
Speaker 13: verdict for him after he was charged with assaulting a

3439
03:19:05,080 --> 03:19:09,840
Speaker 13: corrections officer, which is, I mean, if you know anything

3440
03:19:09,879 --> 03:19:19,600
Speaker 13: about federal indictments, a magnificent coup. So Eric currently has

3441
03:19:19,879 --> 03:19:24,920
Speaker 13: a Clan Act conspiracy in Bivens lawsuit pending against more

3442
03:19:25,000 --> 03:19:29,840
Speaker 13: than forty state defendants. His team is trying to achieve

3443
03:19:29,920 --> 03:19:33,360
Speaker 13: release from the ADX by a writ of habeas corpus.

3444
03:19:34,040 --> 03:19:39,400
Speaker 13: He's not currently getting access to communications, visits, or programming,

3445
03:19:42,080 --> 03:19:49,640
Speaker 13: but he is still strong and resilient, and his recent

3446
03:19:49,760 --> 03:19:53,080
Speaker 13: victories are an object lesson in the fact that we

3447
03:19:53,200 --> 03:19:57,640
Speaker 13: really can fight back and win. Please donate to his

3448
03:19:57,720 --> 03:20:02,920
Speaker 13: support fund and please uplift what is happening, because this

3449
03:20:03,320 --> 03:20:07,840
Speaker 13: is the future for anti fascists in the Bureau of Prisons. Nevertheless,

3450
03:20:07,959 --> 03:20:12,680
Speaker 13: we do continue to struggle and sometimes even to win,

3451
03:20:12,959 --> 03:20:17,480
Speaker 13: and I think our stories of triumph are not frequently

3452
03:20:17,640 --> 03:20:19,840
Speaker 13: enough told, and so one thing that we could do

3453
03:20:19,920 --> 03:20:23,200
Speaker 13: this June eleventh is try to gather all of those

3454
03:20:23,280 --> 03:20:26,879
Speaker 13: stories and make sure that those stories do get told.

3455
03:20:27,440 --> 03:20:29,600
Speaker 4: I think it's really important, like you said, to see

3456
03:20:29,800 --> 03:20:31,720
Speaker 4: these little victories and like not to see it as

3457
03:20:32,640 --> 03:20:35,160
Speaker 4: distinct from a broader struggle, Like if we want to

3458
03:20:35,200 --> 03:20:37,520
Speaker 4: do anarchism and build ways of taking care of each

3459
03:20:37,520 --> 03:20:40,119
Speaker 4: other outside of the state, then we need to take

3460
03:20:40,200 --> 03:20:43,040
Speaker 4: care of people who are victimized by the state, And

3461
03:20:43,400 --> 03:20:45,840
Speaker 4: like this is part of doing that, we're proving we

3462
03:20:45,920 --> 03:20:49,120
Speaker 4: can do it by doing it right. And like Robert said,

3463
03:20:49,120 --> 03:20:51,800
Speaker 4: like we're not going to storm the Winter Palace necessarily. Yeah,

3464
03:20:52,720 --> 03:20:55,120
Speaker 4: we can build up our in different ways, and this

3465
03:20:55,280 --> 03:20:58,120
Speaker 4: is a way of doing that. I'm thinking of like

3466
03:20:58,520 --> 03:21:02,760
Speaker 4: more international like cases. I know, for instance that where

3467
03:21:02,800 --> 03:21:05,480
Speaker 4: I come from, the British government fucking loves to put

3468
03:21:05,800 --> 03:21:08,160
Speaker 4: people who volunteered to fight for the YPG in prison

3469
03:21:08,680 --> 03:21:11,200
Speaker 4: or their parents if they send them money for food,

3470
03:21:11,800 --> 03:21:15,520
Speaker 4: which yes, great country, But I know that like all

3471
03:21:15,560 --> 03:21:18,240
Speaker 4: over the world in Spain and Catalonia where I've lived,

3472
03:21:18,280 --> 03:21:20,480
Speaker 4: like this is a thing too. So are there any

3473
03:21:20,520 --> 03:21:22,960
Speaker 4: other like international cases that you want to sort of

3474
03:21:23,040 --> 03:21:23,720
Speaker 4: draw attention to?

3475
03:21:25,920 --> 03:21:30,200
Speaker 7: Currently right now, Alfredo Caspito in Italy is has been

3476
03:21:30,280 --> 03:21:34,480
Speaker 7: on hunger strike since October against the particularly isolating and

3477
03:21:34,560 --> 03:21:39,760
Speaker 7: particularly repressive forty one, the prison what he calls a

3478
03:21:39,879 --> 03:21:43,720
Speaker 7: non life in there so a prison that was primarily

3479
03:21:43,840 --> 03:21:47,000
Speaker 7: used against Masia bosses. But you know, in the classic

3480
03:21:47,080 --> 03:21:55,160
Speaker 7: state misinterpreting anarchism has considered Alfredo a leader and particularly

3481
03:21:56,040 --> 03:22:00,640
Speaker 7: and so locked him away without access to almost any

3482
03:22:00,760 --> 03:22:04,200
Speaker 7: means of communication, and uh, and so he's he's had

3483
03:22:04,200 --> 03:22:06,640
Speaker 7: a lot of health problems as a result of this.

3484
03:22:06,840 --> 03:22:09,960
Speaker 7: You know, he was originally locked in for shooting a

3485
03:22:10,080 --> 03:22:13,440
Speaker 7: nuclear executive in the knee, uh, after some particular couss

3486
03:22:13,440 --> 03:22:20,199
Speaker 7: remarks from him following the Fukushima disaster. And that nuclear

3487
03:22:20,920 --> 03:22:26,080
Speaker 7: company has ties with like the you know, the larger

3488
03:22:26,120 --> 03:22:32,800
Speaker 7: war machine, the manufacturing of of weapons for war and uh,

3489
03:22:33,240 --> 03:22:35,440
Speaker 7: you know he's he's caught other charges while being in

3490
03:22:35,480 --> 03:22:39,560
Speaker 7: prison for previously alleged activities, including just being an anarchist

3491
03:22:39,680 --> 03:22:43,240
Speaker 7: essentially kind of what you talked about, the straight criminalizing

3492
03:22:43,680 --> 03:22:48,640
Speaker 7: political sensibilities. You know, Italy has been doing that. Chile

3493
03:22:48,720 --> 03:22:54,519
Speaker 7: has been doing that previously against people like Monica Caballero

3494
03:22:54,720 --> 03:22:58,680
Speaker 7: and Francisco Solar, who have been in and out of

3495
03:22:58,720 --> 03:23:01,640
Speaker 7: prison for years now in a curly facing more charges

3496
03:23:01,760 --> 03:23:09,120
Speaker 7: for allegedly sending bombs to police training facilities and such

3497
03:23:10,040 --> 03:23:14,920
Speaker 7: down in Chile and in your own England. Toby shown

3498
03:23:15,040 --> 03:23:20,320
Speaker 7: is someone who got out recently after being receiving terrorists

3499
03:23:21,080 --> 03:23:25,600
Speaker 7: charges for allegedly being involved in the anarchist website called

3500
03:23:25,640 --> 03:23:31,199
Speaker 7: three two five and financing terrorism through like accepting donations

3501
03:23:31,320 --> 03:23:33,960
Speaker 7: for their work and things like that. But he did

3502
03:23:34,000 --> 03:23:36,000
Speaker 7: not get convicted of that he usually got convicted of

3503
03:23:36,520 --> 03:23:40,040
Speaker 7: some minor drug charges and so he's been released to

3504
03:23:40,280 --> 03:23:43,640
Speaker 7: kind of a halfway house now, but they continue to

3505
03:23:44,800 --> 03:23:48,960
Speaker 7: try to mess with his terms of release because of

3506
03:23:49,080 --> 03:23:53,359
Speaker 7: his politics, because he's an anarchist and unrepentant, they continue

3507
03:23:53,400 --> 03:23:54,400
Speaker 7: to try to mess with him.

3508
03:23:54,640 --> 03:23:55,080
Speaker 4: Essentially.

3509
03:23:55,959 --> 03:23:59,600
Speaker 14: On the website j eleven dot org, there's a page

3510
03:23:59,760 --> 03:24:02,680
Speaker 14: where information about a lot of prisoners, both in the

3511
03:24:02,840 --> 03:24:06,320
Speaker 14: US and internationally. You know a little bit about them.

3512
03:24:06,920 --> 03:24:09,360
Speaker 14: Most of them has their address. If there's a support

3513
03:24:09,440 --> 03:24:11,360
Speaker 14: site with more information that's linked to it as well.

3514
03:24:11,959 --> 03:24:14,960
Speaker 4: Okay, that's a good paid place foreople to look. Anything

3515
03:24:15,040 --> 03:24:18,720
Speaker 4: else you guys wanted to get to to discuss issues

3516
03:24:19,440 --> 03:24:22,120
Speaker 4: for incosce rated anarchists people, I guess other ways to

3517
03:24:22,120 --> 03:24:23,320
Speaker 4: support incost rate to people.

3518
03:24:24,320 --> 03:24:27,040
Speaker 13: Yes, I would like to remind your listeners that all

3519
03:24:27,120 --> 03:24:31,920
Speaker 13: prosecutions are political, and that people who are locked away

3520
03:24:32,360 --> 03:24:38,240
Speaker 13: in you know, the cages that are the federal facilities

3521
03:24:38,440 --> 03:24:41,240
Speaker 13: and the state and local and county facilities are all

3522
03:24:42,240 --> 03:24:45,920
Speaker 13: dealing with the same kinds of isolation and deprivations, and

3523
03:24:46,879 --> 03:24:51,960
Speaker 13: a lot of them have even less support than some

3524
03:24:52,120 --> 03:24:54,359
Speaker 13: of our long term anarchist political prisoners.

3525
03:24:55,280 --> 03:24:57,600
Speaker 4: And so you know, I.

3526
03:24:58,120 --> 03:25:01,800
Speaker 13: Understand this is a program about June eleventh, and of

3527
03:25:01,920 --> 03:25:04,600
Speaker 13: course I want to uplift June eleventh, But I would

3528
03:25:04,640 --> 03:25:08,080
Speaker 13: also like to suggest that to whatever extent you can

3529
03:25:08,120 --> 03:25:14,080
Speaker 13: get involved in just prisoner support. I think that more

3530
03:25:14,360 --> 03:25:17,640
Speaker 13: support for more prisoners is always a good thing.

3531
03:25:18,480 --> 03:25:23,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, be in the streets in whatever, by whatever means.

3532
03:25:23,520 --> 03:25:28,200
Speaker 7: Fighting the society that makes prison and necessity is the

3533
03:25:28,320 --> 03:25:30,720
Speaker 7: longer game, right, Yeah.

3534
03:25:31,080 --> 03:25:33,960
Speaker 14: You know, related to what Ma was saying, I wanted

3535
03:25:34,040 --> 03:25:39,200
Speaker 14: to mention another long termanicist prisoner, Michael Kimball, who is

3536
03:25:39,320 --> 03:25:45,039
Speaker 14: in Alabama, and just thinking about like how supporting him

3537
03:25:45,160 --> 03:25:47,920
Speaker 14: has resonated to like so many other people in prison

3538
03:25:48,360 --> 03:25:51,600
Speaker 14: in Alabama, Like the way that he has been able

3539
03:25:52,800 --> 03:25:54,560
Speaker 14: through the support of you know, some of his friends

3540
03:25:54,600 --> 03:25:57,360
Speaker 14: on the outside, then support like so many other queer

3541
03:25:57,440 --> 03:26:01,200
Speaker 14: people that he's with in Alabama and been able to

3542
03:26:01,280 --> 03:26:05,320
Speaker 14: like collectively organize and like share radical history, Like you know,

3543
03:26:05,440 --> 03:26:07,280
Speaker 14: they have a have a role in it too, and

3544
03:26:07,800 --> 03:26:11,160
Speaker 14: our support for them can like resonate far beyond just

3545
03:26:11,240 --> 03:26:11,960
Speaker 14: an individual.

3546
03:26:12,760 --> 03:26:12,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3547
03:26:12,959 --> 03:26:14,000
Speaker 4: I think that's a great point.

3548
03:26:14,640 --> 03:26:17,640
Speaker 14: Yeah, And other things to mention, we are we have

3549
03:26:17,760 --> 03:26:21,039
Speaker 14: a fundraising goal for Marius this year twenty five hundred dollars.

3550
03:26:22,440 --> 03:26:24,640
Speaker 14: We're trying to get some bookstores on board to you know,

3551
03:26:24,760 --> 03:26:27,360
Speaker 14: have some June eleven stickers donate a little bit of money,

3552
03:26:28,240 --> 03:26:31,080
Speaker 14: so go to your local bookstore and potshop, red Space,

3553
03:26:31,240 --> 03:26:31,800
Speaker 14: et cetera.

3554
03:26:32,360 --> 03:26:35,800
Speaker 4: Nice. Is there any any other like resources you guys

3555
03:26:35,840 --> 03:26:38,879
Speaker 4: wanted to plug? Social media is or anything that people

3556
03:26:38,920 --> 03:26:39,760
Speaker 4: can follow to find out.

3557
03:26:40,800 --> 03:26:46,240
Speaker 13: You can follow Marius's support on Twitter at at support Marius.

3558
03:26:47,280 --> 03:26:50,280
Speaker 13: There's also an instagram that I think is at support

3559
03:26:50,360 --> 03:26:54,359
Speaker 13: Marius Mason. I would also like to plug the concept

3560
03:26:54,600 --> 03:26:57,039
Speaker 13: of not talking to cops.

3561
03:26:58,760 --> 03:27:02,760
Speaker 7: Smart June eleven. Also some social media presence. There's really

3562
03:27:02,879 --> 03:27:08,160
Speaker 7: only regularly active on the master don account and it's

3563
03:27:08,240 --> 03:27:10,680
Speaker 7: just at June one to one at June eleven.

3564
03:27:11,280 --> 03:27:14,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was fantastic. Thank you very much. Guys, really

3565
03:27:14,280 --> 03:27:33,680
Speaker 4: appreciate your time. Hello podcast fans, it's just me today,

3566
03:27:33,840 --> 03:27:37,080
Speaker 4: It's just James and we're doing another episode about the border.

3567
03:27:37,400 --> 03:27:41,320
Speaker 4: I'm joined today by Emmett and David from the Borderlands

3568
03:27:41,360 --> 03:27:43,720
Speaker 4: Relief Collective and we're going to talk a little bit

3569
03:27:43,879 --> 03:27:48,400
Speaker 4: about people doing mutual aid on the border, the situation

3570
03:27:48,600 --> 03:27:50,640
Speaker 4: on the border, and for those of you who live

3571
03:27:50,879 --> 03:27:53,480
Speaker 4: a long way away from it, and a sort of

3572
03:27:53,600 --> 03:27:57,960
Speaker 4: pretty shitty thing that border patrol did to some supplies

3573
03:27:57,959 --> 03:28:00,560
Speaker 4: which were left out on the border earlier this month.

3574
03:28:01,480 --> 03:28:03,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, David, if you'd like to sort of introduce

3575
03:28:03,879 --> 03:28:05,720
Speaker 4: yourselves and expend a little bit about the roles you play,

3576
03:28:05,760 --> 03:28:07,199
Speaker 4: that would be great either.

3577
03:28:07,360 --> 03:28:09,520
Speaker 10: I'm happy to be here. My name is Emmett.

3578
03:28:09,680 --> 03:28:14,400
Speaker 6: I am splitting my time between being a geochemist at

3579
03:28:14,440 --> 03:28:19,360
Speaker 6: Descriptions Station Oceanography in a PhD student and trying to

3580
03:28:19,400 --> 03:28:22,240
Speaker 6: reconcile what it means to be living in this border

3581
03:28:22,320 --> 03:28:24,560
Speaker 6: lands and being a part of a community that is

3582
03:28:26,040 --> 03:28:29,440
Speaker 6: partially criminalized depending on who you are, where you come from,

3583
03:28:29,879 --> 03:28:32,520
Speaker 6: and also what it means for you to seek safety

3584
03:28:32,560 --> 03:28:35,360
Speaker 6: and freedom in your life. So I work in several

3585
03:28:35,560 --> 03:28:42,600
Speaker 6: organizing spaces trying to shut down different detention centers as

3586
03:28:42,680 --> 03:28:47,520
Speaker 6: well as supporting folks just make ends meet in San

3587
03:28:47,560 --> 03:28:55,040
Speaker 6: Diego and also supporting people keeping their lives and staying

3588
03:28:55,040 --> 03:29:00,120
Speaker 6: alive in this extreme border border lands that we on.

3589
03:29:01,200 --> 03:29:05,760
Speaker 5: Hey, my name is David. My job I work as

3590
03:29:06,120 --> 03:29:09,879
Speaker 5: a surgeon. I've been living in San Diego for about

3591
03:29:10,280 --> 03:29:18,440
Speaker 5: ten years and I've been doing humanitarian volunteer work in

3592
03:29:18,560 --> 03:29:23,800
Speaker 5: the Borderlands, which we call doing water drops for something

3593
03:29:24,000 --> 03:29:32,400
Speaker 5: like six years, got started with Border Angels and also

3594
03:29:32,560 --> 03:29:39,879
Speaker 5: did volunteer work with Order Kindness highly recommend that organization,

3595
03:29:41,280 --> 03:29:47,320
Speaker 5: and more recently have been doing water drops in a

3596
03:29:47,400 --> 03:29:54,400
Speaker 5: mountainous area between San Diego and TJ with friends and

3597
03:29:54,520 --> 03:29:59,040
Speaker 5: we just recently found a name for our group and

3598
03:29:59,640 --> 03:30:02,840
Speaker 5: it's Orderlands Relief Collective.

3599
03:30:04,840 --> 03:30:05,080
Speaker 13: Great.

3600
03:30:05,240 --> 03:30:08,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think maybe I think if people think

3601
03:30:08,640 --> 03:30:11,280
Speaker 4: of San Diego, they think of like the zoo and

3602
03:30:11,480 --> 03:30:15,880
Speaker 4: maybe SeaWorld and the beach, you know, that kind of shit.

3603
03:30:15,920 --> 03:30:18,560
Speaker 4: So like, can you explain what it's like. I've spent

3604
03:30:18,600 --> 03:30:20,520
Speaker 4: a lot of time in the area where you guys

3605
03:30:20,560 --> 03:30:23,360
Speaker 4: do water drops. Can you explain what it's like and

3606
03:30:23,520 --> 03:30:26,480
Speaker 4: why it's such a difficult area to pass through for

3607
03:30:26,560 --> 03:30:28,160
Speaker 4: people who are trying to move north.

3608
03:30:29,120 --> 03:30:33,000
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, San Diego. As you said, people think of

3609
03:30:33,040 --> 03:30:36,880
Speaker 5: the beach. But actually I think someone told me that

3610
03:30:37,080 --> 03:30:42,600
Speaker 5: San Diego County has some of the most diverse kind

3611
03:30:42,640 --> 03:30:47,520
Speaker 5: of ecosystems of any county in the so called USA.

3612
03:30:48,120 --> 03:30:51,920
Speaker 5: We have high mountains where it snows when it gets

3613
03:30:52,000 --> 03:30:57,680
Speaker 5: called out. We have low deserts where routinely exceeds one

3614
03:30:57,760 --> 03:31:01,160
Speaker 5: hundred degrees fahrenheit in the summertime, I mean one hundred

3615
03:31:01,160 --> 03:31:06,520
Speaker 5: and twenty degrees fahrenheit in the summertime. And as far

3616
03:31:06,640 --> 03:31:15,560
Speaker 5: as the geography of migration, it really goes back to

3617
03:31:16,840 --> 03:31:20,840
Speaker 5: you know, it's a direct consequence of federal border policy.

3618
03:31:21,520 --> 03:31:25,960
Speaker 5: I think many people will be familiar with the term

3619
03:31:26,440 --> 03:31:32,680
Speaker 5: prevention through deterrence, which is sometimes elaborated as prevention of

3620
03:31:32,840 --> 03:31:38,760
Speaker 5: migration through environmental deterrence, and the whole concept is going

3621
03:31:38,879 --> 03:31:45,760
Speaker 5: way back to Clinton administration. The areas of the border

3622
03:31:46,120 --> 03:31:51,720
Speaker 5: near cities like San Diego were increasingly militarized with high

3623
03:31:51,800 --> 03:31:58,279
Speaker 5: border fence, intense patrol by armed officers, and increasingly recently

3624
03:31:58,400 --> 03:32:05,440
Speaker 5: electronic surveys, with the idea of relying on the extremely

3625
03:32:05,640 --> 03:32:10,280
Speaker 5: harsh terrain of the deserts and mountains to form a

3626
03:32:10,600 --> 03:32:15,680
Speaker 5: kind of a natural But they quickly found out within

3627
03:32:15,840 --> 03:32:17,920
Speaker 5: within you know, basically the first year or so of

3628
03:32:18,080 --> 03:32:23,879
Speaker 5: that federal policy that numbers of people crossing the border

3629
03:32:24,200 --> 03:32:32,120
Speaker 5: did not decrease. However, deaths skyrocketed. And that's something we understood,

3630
03:32:33,040 --> 03:32:36,520
Speaker 5: you know, people in Washington, d C. Understood many many

3631
03:32:36,640 --> 03:32:40,640
Speaker 5: years ago. But the policy persists. So the bottom line

3632
03:32:40,760 --> 03:32:45,160
Speaker 5: is people who are crossing the border from Mexico to

3633
03:32:45,320 --> 03:32:51,760
Speaker 5: the USA often resort to crossing in the most remote

3634
03:32:52,200 --> 03:32:56,640
Speaker 5: and dangerous areas of the border. So the area that

3635
03:32:56,720 --> 03:33:02,000
Speaker 5: we're going to be talking about, this mountainous region between

3636
03:33:02,120 --> 03:33:07,360
Speaker 5: San Diego and Tijuana. Literally folks are going up and

3637
03:33:07,640 --> 03:33:12,160
Speaker 5: over the tallest mountain in the area, literally up and

3638
03:33:12,320 --> 03:33:19,800
Speaker 5: over the mountain, extremely arduous walk. When we do these

3639
03:33:19,920 --> 03:33:24,000
Speaker 5: water drops, we're well rested. We hike all day and

3640
03:33:24,520 --> 03:33:29,800
Speaker 5: we come home exhausted, and we look at our Gaya

3641
03:33:29,920 --> 03:33:34,360
Speaker 5: apps and find that we've only hiked a very small

3642
03:33:34,440 --> 03:33:38,279
Speaker 5: portion of the actual total journey, and we're always humbled

3643
03:33:39,080 --> 03:33:43,200
Speaker 5: by just the resilience and determination of people who do

3644
03:33:43,320 --> 03:33:44,000
Speaker 5: this crossing.

3645
03:33:44,879 --> 03:33:48,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, another thing I think people don't realize is that

3646
03:33:48,800 --> 03:33:53,800
Speaker 4: the amount of physical just difficulty that people have to

3647
03:33:53,920 --> 03:33:56,800
Speaker 4: enjoy coming here is immense. And of course, the reason

3648
03:33:56,879 --> 03:33:58,880
Speaker 4: that people are willing to take those risk is because

3649
03:33:59,240 --> 03:34:01,320
Speaker 4: it's not like they come from a place of safety,

3650
03:34:01,520 --> 03:34:04,800
Speaker 4: right and it's not it's not that, you know, the

3651
03:34:04,840 --> 03:34:07,520
Speaker 4: reason they're willing to take risks is because it's a risk.

3652
03:34:08,080 --> 03:34:10,400
Speaker 4: Being where they were is a risk. I think a

3653
03:34:10,480 --> 03:34:12,440
Speaker 4: lot of people will maybe have become more engaged with

3654
03:34:12,520 --> 03:34:17,400
Speaker 4: border policy during the Trump heira certainly like the legacy

3655
03:34:17,480 --> 03:34:21,120
Speaker 4: media narrative focused on the border very briefly, Like maybe

3656
03:34:21,120 --> 03:34:23,160
Speaker 4: it peaked around the midterms in twenty eighteen, I think,

3657
03:34:23,360 --> 03:34:27,280
Speaker 4: and then people have lost a lot of interest since then.

3658
03:34:27,959 --> 03:34:30,320
Speaker 4: So for those of us who live on the border,

3659
03:34:30,480 --> 03:34:33,160
Speaker 4: it's remarkable how little has changed. I think maybe it's

3660
03:34:33,240 --> 03:34:36,160
Speaker 4: not particularly remarkable because I don't think we're really expected to,

3661
03:34:36,400 --> 03:34:41,840
Speaker 4: but like, can you explain what if anything has changed

3662
03:34:41,920 --> 03:34:46,000
Speaker 4: since twenty twenty one and how things have sort of

3663
03:34:46,200 --> 03:34:47,440
Speaker 4: remained the same in many ways?

3664
03:34:50,800 --> 03:34:53,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think it's a really good question, and it

3665
03:34:53,920 --> 03:34:54,879
Speaker 10: brings up a lot of.

3666
03:34:55,000 --> 03:35:02,120
Speaker 6: The political nature or kind of skewed ideaity based conversations that.

3667
03:35:02,200 --> 03:35:03,560
Speaker 10: Exist in migration.

3668
03:35:05,440 --> 03:35:08,160
Speaker 6: And obviously there's a lot of rhetoric that is quite

3669
03:35:08,560 --> 03:35:10,240
Speaker 6: hyperbolic around.

3670
03:35:11,400 --> 03:35:14,560
Speaker 10: The so called morality of people who are.

3671
03:35:16,360 --> 03:35:21,360
Speaker 6: Migrants in general, and then kind of categorizing certain people

3672
03:35:22,040 --> 03:35:26,840
Speaker 6: as worthy or not worthy of entrance into the so

3673
03:35:27,000 --> 03:35:31,720
Speaker 6: called nation, and kind of furthermore, what does it mean

3674
03:35:31,879 --> 03:35:34,280
Speaker 6: for people to believe any of those narratives and then

3675
03:35:34,320 --> 03:35:37,680
Speaker 6: support them at a federal political level, And as you're saying,

3676
03:35:38,520 --> 03:35:42,480
Speaker 6: during Trump era, there was a lot of conversation in

3677
03:35:42,600 --> 03:35:47,160
Speaker 6: response to very very hateful rhetoric from Trump and administration

3678
03:35:48,800 --> 03:35:53,680
Speaker 6: targeted at certain people, but not from a deep place

3679
03:35:54,000 --> 03:35:57,440
Speaker 6: of really understanding or characterizing the conversation in general, or

3680
03:35:57,560 --> 03:36:00,480
Speaker 6: speaking by the fact that in San Diego or in

3681
03:36:00,560 --> 03:36:04,279
Speaker 6: California at large, more than half of the farm workers

3682
03:36:04,440 --> 03:36:08,560
Speaker 6: who kind of create this city that we are or

3683
03:36:08,800 --> 03:36:12,600
Speaker 6: the state that we are, and support the very backbone

3684
03:36:12,720 --> 03:36:14,760
Speaker 6: of the fact that we're all still having our hearts

3685
03:36:14,800 --> 03:36:18,720
Speaker 6: beat our migrants, and that our economy at large, as

3686
03:36:18,760 --> 03:36:22,280
Speaker 6: well as just the fabric of our nation is based

3687
03:36:22,320 --> 03:36:26,160
Speaker 6: on migrants in immigration. So for us to pick and

3688
03:36:26,240 --> 03:36:28,680
Speaker 6: choose what that looks like is not only missing the

3689
03:36:28,720 --> 03:36:31,320
Speaker 6: majority of the point, but is using as a talking piece,

3690
03:36:31,520 --> 03:36:35,040
Speaker 6: is really as a talking piece for certain identities to

3691
03:36:35,160 --> 03:36:39,119
Speaker 6: feel vindicated to spend money and support certain for profit

3692
03:36:39,240 --> 03:36:43,600
Speaker 6: corporations like for example, cour Civic, one of the largest

3693
03:36:43,640 --> 03:36:46,839
Speaker 6: prison corporations prison corporations.

3694
03:36:46,400 --> 03:36:47,199
Speaker 10: In the country.

3695
03:36:47,640 --> 03:36:51,360
Speaker 6: I've got one point nine billion dollars the previous year

3696
03:36:52,040 --> 03:36:54,640
Speaker 6: from the federal government, and therefore, like you think about

3697
03:36:54,640 --> 03:36:59,680
Speaker 6: the connection between these enterprises and stories about immigration are

3698
03:36:59,720 --> 03:37:03,440
Speaker 6: quite linked. So I don't have all the statistics in

3699
03:37:03,480 --> 03:37:07,400
Speaker 6: front of me about how the specific number of crossings

3700
03:37:07,400 --> 03:37:10,520
Speaker 6: has changed or the population has changed.

3701
03:37:10,640 --> 03:37:14,440
Speaker 10: But on the whole, nothing has really changed as far

3702
03:37:14,520 --> 03:37:16,000
Speaker 10: as the need goes.

3703
03:37:16,120 --> 03:37:18,640
Speaker 6: So, thinking about four years ago, what were the specific

3704
03:37:18,680 --> 03:37:22,080
Speaker 6: crises that were occurring that were causing people to seek

3705
03:37:22,160 --> 03:37:23,280
Speaker 6: seek safety United States?

3706
03:37:24,480 --> 03:37:27,760
Speaker 10: Maybe some specific positions of change and others have arisen.

3707
03:37:28,680 --> 03:37:31,400
Speaker 6: And as more and more people are come to United

3708
03:37:31,440 --> 03:37:37,000
Speaker 6: States fleeing from climate related disasters as well as ongoing stability,

3709
03:37:37,920 --> 03:37:41,680
Speaker 6: it's not as if the US has engaged in any

3710
03:37:41,800 --> 03:37:46,640
Speaker 6: real project to support people to begin with or understand

3711
03:37:46,640 --> 03:37:51,520
Speaker 6: the underlying causes. So from that standpoint, nothing meaningfully has

3712
03:37:51,600 --> 03:37:56,000
Speaker 6: happened from either administration to really understand or create policies

3713
03:37:56,560 --> 03:38:01,000
Speaker 6: that would support anyone seeking safety or from making decisions

3714
03:38:01,040 --> 03:38:05,200
Speaker 6: that are quote unquote aligned with US best interests. It's

3715
03:38:05,280 --> 03:38:07,800
Speaker 6: never been a part of the conversation. It's more to

3716
03:38:08,360 --> 03:38:13,560
Speaker 6: basically capitalize off of people in their suffering, whether wuther

3717
03:38:13,600 --> 03:38:17,880
Speaker 6: that be to the you know, to be a storyline

3718
03:38:17,920 --> 03:38:21,640
Speaker 6: that US is is helping people, or is a savior

3719
03:38:21,920 --> 03:38:26,400
Speaker 6: of others, or is trying to crack down on armed

3720
03:38:26,440 --> 03:38:30,920
Speaker 6: bandits or or criminals who are cross crossing this borderland.

3721
03:38:31,720 --> 03:38:35,000
Speaker 4: I think it is worth like the cusific examples really

3722
03:38:35,040 --> 03:38:37,480
Speaker 4: interesting because Biden made a big thing of like talking

3723
03:38:37,520 --> 03:38:42,160
Speaker 4: about shutting down like quote unquote private prisons, but it's

3724
03:38:42,240 --> 03:38:46,160
Speaker 4: still very much like funding the same things when they're

3725
03:38:46,520 --> 03:38:48,600
Speaker 4: not for people who are citizens of this country or.

3726
03:38:49,040 --> 03:38:51,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and for those of those who aren't fully reversed

3727
03:38:51,760 --> 03:38:56,439
Speaker 6: in kind of the basic relationship between private prisons and immigration,

3728
03:38:57,520 --> 03:39:01,879
Speaker 6: there are is a relationship that between customs and Border

3729
03:39:01,959 --> 03:39:10,720
Speaker 6: protection and different prison corporations to basically put people who

3730
03:39:10,959 --> 03:39:14,760
Speaker 6: are apprehended who are not initially deported under Title forty

3731
03:39:14,800 --> 03:39:21,480
Speaker 6: two in detention while their cases are ongoing and investigated

3732
03:39:22,560 --> 03:39:28,320
Speaker 6: or asylum or a refugee status. And so these prisons

3733
03:39:29,160 --> 03:39:33,160
Speaker 6: make a profit and can basically demand a certain.

3734
03:39:32,959 --> 03:39:35,119
Speaker 10: Money amount of money from the government.

3735
03:39:34,879 --> 03:39:39,640
Speaker 6: Per person who is within one of their facilities, and

3736
03:39:39,720 --> 03:39:43,160
Speaker 6: there's also a minimum that they will continually get money

3737
03:39:43,200 --> 03:39:45,400
Speaker 6: from the government regardless of whether the beds are filled,

3738
03:39:45,640 --> 03:39:48,360
Speaker 6: but they have an incentive to keep beds filled. So

3739
03:39:48,480 --> 03:39:52,600
Speaker 6: there is an economic relationship between these corporations and the

3740
03:39:52,879 --> 03:39:56,520
Speaker 6: government to basically put more people in detention. So that's

3741
03:39:56,560 --> 03:40:00,880
Speaker 6: a huge underpinning of this whole conversation is who is

3742
03:40:00,920 --> 03:40:03,000
Speaker 6: getting money and how does it kind of further the

3743
03:40:03,040 --> 03:40:07,920
Speaker 6: certain aims of corporations, but also agencies that basically get

3744
03:40:08,240 --> 03:40:12,199
Speaker 6: a larger amount of federal funding through apprehension of people.

3745
03:40:12,879 --> 03:40:13,039
Speaker 7: Right.

3746
03:40:13,200 --> 03:40:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, like Biden has funded DHS more than Trump did,

3747
03:40:15,800 --> 03:40:19,400
Speaker 4: and like DHS's budget does Department of homelown security, of

3748
03:40:19,520 --> 03:40:23,320
Speaker 4: which Customs and Border Protection is a part and border

3749
03:40:23,360 --> 03:40:25,800
Speaker 4: patrol is a part of Customs and Border protection. It's

3750
03:40:25,840 --> 03:40:30,400
Speaker 4: a giant pyramid of people putting people in prison, and

3751
03:40:30,520 --> 03:40:33,440
Speaker 4: it's also worth like reinforcing I think for people that

3752
03:40:33,879 --> 03:40:36,080
Speaker 4: these people have done nothing wrong at the point which

3753
03:40:36,120 --> 03:40:39,640
Speaker 4: they are incarcerated, right, Like they have a bayed or

3754
03:40:39,760 --> 03:40:44,120
Speaker 4: relevant laws and are in conditions which we've decided are

3755
03:40:44,240 --> 03:40:47,879
Speaker 4: not befitting prisoners in the United States, but are okay

3756
03:40:47,959 --> 03:40:52,320
Speaker 4: for these people. Not that anyone should be incarcerated, but yeah,

3757
03:40:52,360 --> 03:40:55,680
Speaker 4: there's still a two tier system. So can you explain

3758
03:40:55,720 --> 03:40:59,720
Speaker 4: a little bit about your efforts to do mutual aid

3759
03:40:59,760 --> 03:41:01,680
Speaker 4: and to like do a little bit of kindness on

3760
03:41:01,760 --> 03:41:04,640
Speaker 4: the border and make things a little bit better out

3761
03:41:04,680 --> 03:41:06,160
Speaker 4: there for people who are coming north.

3762
03:41:08,480 --> 03:41:15,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, what we do again just is in collaboration with

3763
03:41:15,320 --> 03:41:19,320
Speaker 5: other organizations that have been around a long time, a

3764
03:41:19,400 --> 03:41:24,520
Speaker 5: lot longer than we have Border Angels, Order Kindness in California,

3765
03:41:25,320 --> 03:41:31,200
Speaker 5: UH No more deaths in Arizona, many other organizations, and

3766
03:41:31,280 --> 03:41:34,720
Speaker 5: it really, you know, boils down to we don't want

3767
03:41:34,879 --> 03:41:38,880
Speaker 5: people to die on you know, the trails UH crossing

3768
03:41:38,959 --> 03:41:47,000
Speaker 5: through the borderlands, and that actually informs where we drop Unfortunately,

3769
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:51,440
Speaker 5: you know, all of our our recent new routes that

3770
03:41:51,560 --> 03:41:57,920
Speaker 5: we supply there directly because we know that people have

3771
03:41:58,160 --> 03:42:04,959
Speaker 5: died UH in those locations or required rescue. We work

3772
03:42:05,080 --> 03:42:10,760
Speaker 5: in very close relationship with other volunteer organizations that focus

3773
03:42:11,040 --> 03:42:14,960
Speaker 5: on search and rescue and search and recovery, search and

3774
03:42:15,080 --> 03:42:18,640
Speaker 5: recovery meaning recovering human remains of people who have died.

3775
03:42:19,240 --> 03:42:27,480
Speaker 5: So there's a number of outstanding organizations that operate in California, Arizona, Texas.

3776
03:42:28,200 --> 03:42:33,920
Speaker 5: These include Eagles of the Desert, Armadillos, many other organizations.

3777
03:42:34,080 --> 03:42:39,280
Speaker 5: Most of these are actually made up of volunteers who

3778
03:42:39,320 --> 03:42:45,000
Speaker 5: are first generation immigrants, mostly from Mexico, and so when

3779
03:42:45,120 --> 03:42:51,560
Speaker 5: people die or require rescue, we do find out from

3780
03:42:51,959 --> 03:42:57,320
Speaker 5: our friends and comrades in these SAR organizations and we

3781
03:42:57,560 --> 03:43:04,280
Speaker 5: build water drop roots directly around that knowledge. So yeah,

3782
03:43:04,320 --> 03:43:07,560
Speaker 5: it really boils down to, yeah, we don't want more

3783
03:43:07,640 --> 03:43:13,120
Speaker 5: people to die making making this, uh, this journey. And

3784
03:43:13,320 --> 03:43:15,840
Speaker 5: so as far as what kind of supplies we leave,

3785
03:43:16,000 --> 03:43:19,119
Speaker 5: it's what we think may make a difference. We leave

3786
03:43:19,160 --> 03:43:24,680
Speaker 5: bottles of water, energy, drinks like electrolyte, gatorade and so on.

3787
03:43:26,000 --> 03:43:29,200
Speaker 5: Cans of food with pop tops, all kinds of cans

3788
03:43:29,240 --> 03:43:34,280
Speaker 5: of fruit, beans, you know, chili, you know, whatever we

3789
03:43:34,360 --> 03:43:38,400
Speaker 5: think people may need. Of course, we tailor it based

3790
03:43:38,480 --> 03:43:41,240
Speaker 5: on the time of year. In the mountains, in the

3791
03:43:41,280 --> 03:43:45,200
Speaker 5: winter gets freezing cold, lots and lots of rain, so

3792
03:43:45,280 --> 03:43:50,200
Speaker 5: we've been leaving waterproof ponchos, warm clothing. And the summer,

3793
03:43:50,720 --> 03:43:53,520
Speaker 5: of course, it gets scorching hot. In the desert. People

3794
03:43:53,680 --> 03:43:58,480
Speaker 5: die of hyperthermia. They literally cook to death. That's where

3795
03:43:58,640 --> 03:44:04,480
Speaker 5: electrolytes come in here and the sun hats, bandanas, baseball hats,

3796
03:44:05,680 --> 03:44:11,160
Speaker 5: first aid kits. We we leave kids full of medical supplies. Uh,

3797
03:44:11,520 --> 03:44:16,080
Speaker 5: and more recently, you know, just observing the kind of

3798
03:44:16,959 --> 03:44:24,800
Speaker 5: used items that we find on the trail. Uh, kids stuff, diapers, pacifiers, Uh,

3799
03:44:25,640 --> 03:44:30,440
Speaker 5: you know, we leave you know, tampons, you know that

3800
03:44:30,600 --> 03:44:35,720
Speaker 5: kind of stuff. Uh, containers of infant formula. So it's

3801
03:44:35,760 --> 03:44:39,600
Speaker 5: a it's a it's kind of an iterative process, just

3802
03:44:39,760 --> 03:44:43,920
Speaker 5: leaving what we think people need and yeah, that's that's

3803
03:44:44,000 --> 03:44:44,520
Speaker 5: kind of what we do.

3804
03:44:45,040 --> 03:44:46,959
Speaker 4: And just so folks are super clear, this is all

3805
03:44:47,120 --> 03:44:50,320
Speaker 4: like an initiative among you and your comrades, right, right,

3806
03:44:50,360 --> 03:44:53,879
Speaker 4: then you're not supported by any like government entity. That's

3807
03:44:54,040 --> 03:44:56,480
Speaker 4: the government entity is kind of doing quite the opposite

3808
03:44:56,520 --> 03:44:57,080
Speaker 4: of what you're doing.

3809
03:44:57,760 --> 03:45:00,760
Speaker 5: Yeah. Correct, We are all volunteers in the sense that

3810
03:45:01,200 --> 03:45:06,200
Speaker 5: nobody is paid. We don't have any formal affiliations with

3811
03:45:06,400 --> 03:45:10,800
Speaker 5: any other NGOs, much less governmental organizations.

3812
03:45:11,360 --> 03:45:14,120
Speaker 4: Right, So maybe people are wondering. They might have been

3813
03:45:14,120 --> 03:45:16,600
Speaker 4: familiar with the court case in Arizona, or they might

3814
03:45:16,680 --> 03:45:20,880
Speaker 4: not be, like if what you're doing is considered to

3815
03:45:20,920 --> 03:45:24,840
Speaker 4: be like legal humanitarian aid or not you comfortable talking

3816
03:45:24,840 --> 03:45:25,160
Speaker 4: about that.

3817
03:45:25,840 --> 03:45:28,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I think that's definitely a gray area that

3818
03:45:28,879 --> 03:45:34,760
Speaker 6: we find ourselves really occupying. And I think that's a

3819
03:45:34,840 --> 03:45:39,200
Speaker 6: bit of this kind of propaganda machine. Is what does

3820
03:45:39,240 --> 03:45:43,440
Speaker 6: it mean to engage with somebody who is seeking safety

3821
03:45:43,480 --> 03:45:45,960
Speaker 6: and fleeing for their lives. There's a certain place where

3822
03:45:46,000 --> 03:45:49,760
Speaker 6: that's how it to be a wonderful thing. If you're

3823
03:45:50,520 --> 03:45:54,920
Speaker 6: Catholic charities and are providing beds, And for example, I

3824
03:45:55,000 --> 03:45:56,320
Speaker 6: wanted to make that distinction.

3825
03:45:56,080 --> 03:45:59,520
Speaker 10: Between several kind of charity organizations who.

3826
03:45:59,480 --> 03:46:03,000
Speaker 6: Do receive federal money to be engaged in this conversation

3827
03:46:03,520 --> 03:46:08,600
Speaker 6: versus grass fruits, mutual aid networks, and communities who are

3828
03:46:08,959 --> 03:46:12,840
Speaker 6: doing this because it feels like it's part of their

3829
03:46:12,879 --> 03:46:15,560
Speaker 6: communities mission, their families mission, or it means it's part

3830
03:46:15,600 --> 03:46:17,480
Speaker 6: of them being true to themselves and true to what

3831
03:46:17,600 --> 03:46:19,440
Speaker 6: feels just in.

3832
03:46:20,240 --> 03:46:21,640
Speaker 10: The very confusing world.

3833
03:46:21,760 --> 03:46:26,720
Speaker 6: So what we're doing is very explicitly leaving humanitarian aids

3834
03:46:27,040 --> 03:46:31,160
Speaker 6: supplies that are potentially life saving in areas where we

3835
03:46:31,280 --> 03:46:36,160
Speaker 6: know people need them. We are not having any specific

3836
03:46:36,560 --> 03:46:40,480
Speaker 6: or hands on or person to person engagement with anybody.

3837
03:46:41,040 --> 03:46:45,560
Speaker 6: So they're in Arizona, Nomas Motes became part of a

3838
03:46:45,600 --> 03:46:51,720
Speaker 6: conversation about providing critical medical support, and that was a

3839
03:46:51,760 --> 03:46:55,160
Speaker 6: court case that really tested the limits of what it

3840
03:46:55,280 --> 03:46:58,560
Speaker 6: means to be in this great area and what was

3841
03:46:59,120 --> 03:47:02,960
Speaker 6: really important and the nuances in that conversation were what

3842
03:47:03,160 --> 03:47:05,760
Speaker 6: constitutes aiding in a betting or so called aiding in

3843
03:47:05,800 --> 03:47:10,720
Speaker 6: a bedding of legal immigration, which is basically again a

3844
03:47:10,879 --> 03:47:15,080
Speaker 6: very large gray area between are you, are you enticing

3845
03:47:15,160 --> 03:47:18,080
Speaker 6: people to cross? Are you being paid as a smuggler

3846
03:47:18,240 --> 03:47:21,520
Speaker 6: to cross? Are you doing something which is encouraging people

3847
03:47:21,600 --> 03:47:26,440
Speaker 6: to cross? None of which was activity that was engaged

3848
03:47:26,440 --> 03:47:31,000
Speaker 6: with the most modes or us, but in their case

3849
03:47:31,440 --> 03:47:35,640
Speaker 6: specifically providing medical aid across the boundary, and they were

3850
03:47:35,720 --> 03:47:39,320
Speaker 6: raided their their their their camp and their impromptu field

3851
03:47:39,840 --> 03:47:43,840
Speaker 6: uh tents where they were providing life saving medical support

3852
03:47:44,240 --> 03:47:45,000
Speaker 6: where it was raided.

3853
03:47:46,080 --> 03:47:49,360
Speaker 10: And the kind of the finer points of that were that.

3854
03:47:51,400 --> 03:47:56,160
Speaker 6: The outset being that the First Amendment protects humans in

3855
03:47:56,200 --> 03:48:01,560
Speaker 6: their religious freedom to practice whatever that furthers their religious

3856
03:48:02,160 --> 03:48:05,280
Speaker 6: beliefs in a faith, and a very large point of

3857
03:48:05,920 --> 03:48:10,600
Speaker 6: their work was their affiliation and dedication to preserving human life, which,

3858
03:48:10,720 --> 03:48:14,160
Speaker 6: as we can imagine for many folks listening to this

3859
03:48:14,560 --> 03:48:18,760
Speaker 6: or in general, that is very core to their belief system.

3860
03:48:19,920 --> 03:48:23,600
Speaker 6: And so there are very clear protections in the First

3861
03:48:23,640 --> 03:48:28,960
Speaker 6: Amendment of preserving people's right to practice their religion. So

3862
03:48:29,840 --> 03:48:32,560
Speaker 6: that was a case that kind of established a lot

3863
03:48:32,600 --> 03:48:36,240
Speaker 6: of what we're working under is these basic protections to

3864
03:48:36,280 --> 03:48:41,160
Speaker 6: be humanitarian aid workers following basic belief systems. What we're

3865
03:48:41,200 --> 03:48:47,880
Speaker 6: doing specifically is leaving supplies, so leaving supplies. The most

3866
03:48:48,200 --> 03:48:52,480
Speaker 6: egregious thing you can basically say about that is that

3867
03:48:52,520 --> 03:48:58,920
Speaker 6: we're littering, or that we're abandoning property. And so again

3868
03:48:59,080 --> 03:49:03,720
Speaker 6: Nomas Martes, and in this, in this larger conversation, was

3869
03:49:03,800 --> 03:49:07,720
Speaker 6: established in the court that leaving humanitarian aid supplies that

3870
03:49:07,840 --> 03:49:10,440
Speaker 6: were with the intent of saving lives is not litter.

3871
03:49:11,360 --> 03:49:13,360
Speaker 10: So that was also a very big point.

3872
03:49:13,200 --> 03:49:15,080
Speaker 6: Which is saying, no, we are not just kind of

3873
03:49:15,120 --> 03:49:17,360
Speaker 6: going walking down the street and throwing out your bottle

3874
03:49:17,400 --> 03:49:18,760
Speaker 6: in the back of your truck.

3875
03:49:19,320 --> 03:49:21,880
Speaker 10: This is specifically with the intent of saving lives.

3876
03:49:22,360 --> 03:49:25,520
Speaker 6: And the third place is that we are abandoning something

3877
03:49:25,880 --> 03:49:30,160
Speaker 6: in this in this area that would be constituted abandoned property.

3878
03:49:31,240 --> 03:49:32,120
Speaker 10: And as we'll speak.

3879
03:49:31,880 --> 03:49:37,240
Speaker 6: About maybere in the future, our supplies are consumed quite rapidly,

3880
03:49:38,000 --> 03:49:40,840
Speaker 6: and there is a statute in this in this state

3881
03:49:40,960 --> 03:49:43,480
Speaker 6: of it is it abandoned property has to be it

3882
03:49:43,560 --> 03:49:45,320
Speaker 6: has to be left for more than ten days to

3883
03:49:45,360 --> 03:49:48,880
Speaker 6: be considered abandoned property. So even if we are leaving

3884
03:49:49,000 --> 03:49:52,400
Speaker 6: things in these regions, it is not considered abandoned property

3885
03:49:52,920 --> 03:49:56,600
Speaker 6: it's been less than ten days. So basically I guess

3886
03:49:56,840 --> 03:49:59,720
Speaker 6: just to say that nothing we're doing is illegal from

3887
03:49:59,720 --> 03:50:04,120
Speaker 6: any standpoint, and also the case in Arizona kind of

3888
03:50:05,240 --> 03:50:11,080
Speaker 6: helped make a distinguishing, make some distinctions between whether our

3889
03:50:11,240 --> 03:50:15,880
Speaker 6: activity is is also frowned upon in public land, which

3890
03:50:16,000 --> 03:50:18,800
Speaker 6: it is not, because it is constituting humanitarian aid in

3891
03:50:18,800 --> 03:50:20,040
Speaker 6: a place that is desperately needed.

3892
03:50:20,400 --> 03:50:22,040
Speaker 4: Right. And I think if folks go out to like

3893
03:50:22,760 --> 03:50:24,520
Speaker 4: I mean, most people aren't going out to the Valley

3894
03:50:24,520 --> 03:50:25,960
Speaker 4: of the Moon or what have you, but like, if

3895
03:50:26,000 --> 03:50:27,960
Speaker 4: you want to look for abandoned stuff there, it's not

3896
03:50:28,120 --> 03:50:31,200
Speaker 4: hard to find. And it's not you guys doing that

3897
03:50:31,560 --> 03:50:36,880
Speaker 4: like shooting barrels or whatever that Like someone was shooting

3898
03:50:36,920 --> 03:50:39,560
Speaker 4: a barrel last time I was out there. Let's talk

3899
03:50:39,560 --> 03:50:41,920
Speaker 4: about how quickly those supplies are consumed, because I think

3900
03:50:42,040 --> 03:50:45,400
Speaker 4: again that will be like news to some people, right,

3901
03:50:45,640 --> 03:50:48,680
Speaker 4: Like you guys are out there every week, and like

3902
03:50:48,800 --> 03:50:51,160
Speaker 4: how much stuff you're dropping and how quick does it go?

3903
03:50:51,840 --> 03:50:54,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, to tell you the truth, we're still we're still

3904
03:50:54,560 --> 03:50:57,640
Speaker 5: of finding out ourselves because every time we think we

3905
03:50:57,840 --> 03:51:02,400
Speaker 5: know the answer, we're surprised by how fast it's being consumed.

3906
03:51:02,680 --> 03:51:06,120
Speaker 5: The bottom line is it's being consumed as fast as

3907
03:51:06,200 --> 03:51:10,120
Speaker 5: we can leave this supply. So emmine and I and

3908
03:51:10,240 --> 03:51:16,480
Speaker 5: many other of the members of our organization, Borderlands Relief Collective,

3909
03:51:16,680 --> 03:51:20,240
Speaker 5: we also are active in border kindness and in the

3910
03:51:20,360 --> 03:51:24,440
Speaker 5: past with border Angels, and so we're used to a

3911
03:51:24,520 --> 03:51:28,560
Speaker 5: certain rhythm of doing a water drop, circling back usually

3912
03:51:28,600 --> 03:51:32,160
Speaker 5: a month later, and we're happy if maybe half of

3913
03:51:32,240 --> 03:51:36,480
Speaker 5: the supplies have been consumed, that's a good day. When

3914
03:51:36,520 --> 03:51:40,840
Speaker 5: we started doing water drops in this mountainous region, first

3915
03:51:40,840 --> 03:51:43,800
Speaker 5: of all, we were just blown away by the evidence

3916
03:51:44,120 --> 03:51:48,360
Speaker 5: of heavy foot travel. I mean, these are even though

3917
03:51:48,560 --> 03:51:52,880
Speaker 5: you'll never find a hiker, a recreational hiker on these trails,

3918
03:51:53,080 --> 03:51:58,160
Speaker 5: they look like established trails. They're worn in trails. And

3919
03:51:58,360 --> 03:52:01,080
Speaker 5: when we started doing these water drops, there's just a

3920
03:52:01,280 --> 03:52:09,800
Speaker 5: river of discarded water bottles, clothing, food wrappers, and just

3921
03:52:10,280 --> 03:52:13,680
Speaker 5: things that we have never seen before, that that amount

3922
03:52:13,920 --> 03:52:18,800
Speaker 5: of human activity, literally on the top of a mountain

3923
03:52:19,040 --> 03:52:22,000
Speaker 5: where you never would think why would someone cross over

3924
03:52:22,080 --> 03:52:24,520
Speaker 5: a top of a mountain to get from point eight

3925
03:52:24,720 --> 03:52:27,520
Speaker 5: to point B. So, like I said, we're still learning

3926
03:52:27,800 --> 03:52:32,480
Speaker 5: what the proper interval is. Some of these locations that

3927
03:52:32,600 --> 03:52:36,720
Speaker 5: we drop, we come back a week later and they're

3928
03:52:36,800 --> 03:52:41,960
Speaker 5: pretty much one hundred percent consumed. So yeah, we really

3929
03:52:42,480 --> 03:52:44,720
Speaker 5: it's become apparent. We have been having a lot of

3930
03:52:44,800 --> 03:52:49,360
Speaker 5: discussions that we're very eager in trying to expand our

3931
03:52:49,440 --> 03:52:53,760
Speaker 5: number of volunteers because the more we do this in

3932
03:52:53,920 --> 03:53:00,560
Speaker 5: this mountainous region, the more we learn how pressing need is.

3933
03:53:01,320 --> 03:53:06,160
Speaker 5: So we're having a hard time just supplying essentially one

3934
03:53:06,880 --> 03:53:09,640
Speaker 5: path that goes up and over the mountain, and we

3935
03:53:09,840 --> 03:53:13,560
Speaker 5: know that this is just one of many paths that

3936
03:53:13,680 --> 03:53:18,880
Speaker 5: are used by people in this region. So really we're

3937
03:53:18,920 --> 03:53:23,520
Speaker 5: finding one hundred percent consumption every week or two at

3938
03:53:23,640 --> 03:53:25,440
Speaker 5: most of our drop spots.

3939
03:53:26,560 --> 03:53:28,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, so if people did want to we could just

3940
03:53:28,800 --> 03:53:30,280
Speaker 4: get out in here. Now, if people did want to

3941
03:53:30,320 --> 03:53:33,040
Speaker 4: help you and they're in the region, would they be

3942
03:53:33,080 --> 03:53:34,360
Speaker 4: able to serve where they could reach out?

3943
03:53:36,080 --> 03:53:38,520
Speaker 5: Yeah? Sure. We just like I said, we just came

3944
03:53:38,640 --> 03:53:44,160
Speaker 5: up with our name after a fun communal decision making process,

3945
03:53:44,480 --> 03:53:47,880
Speaker 5: and we just a couple of days ago did our

3946
03:53:47,960 --> 03:53:51,920
Speaker 5: first post on social media. So if anybody's on Instagram,

3947
03:53:52,840 --> 03:53:57,600
Speaker 5: just search for Borderlands Relief Collective and click on you know,

3948
03:53:57,800 --> 03:54:01,080
Speaker 5: the email and send us a d get in touch.

3949
03:54:01,640 --> 03:54:05,240
Speaker 5: If you're anywhere near the San Diego we'd love to

3950
03:54:05,480 --> 03:54:09,280
Speaker 5: talk to you, and I definitely would like to expand

3951
03:54:09,680 --> 03:54:10,840
Speaker 5: the number of volunteers.

3952
03:54:11,680 --> 03:54:13,720
Speaker 4: So you spoke a little bit about like that, we

3953
03:54:13,760 --> 03:54:16,280
Speaker 4: spoke about this Arizona case right where people got raided.

3954
03:54:17,720 --> 03:54:20,520
Speaker 4: I know, you guys have also had some less than

3955
03:54:20,680 --> 03:54:27,200
Speaker 4: stellar interactions with CBP Border Patrol specifically, and as they

3956
03:54:27,240 --> 03:54:29,080
Speaker 4: get really mad if I call it customs of Border

3957
03:54:29,080 --> 03:54:33,840
Speaker 4: Patrol because it is custom border protection. So you guys

3958
03:54:33,880 --> 03:54:36,920
Speaker 4: had a thing I live it last month. Now in March,

3959
03:54:37,960 --> 03:54:39,360
Speaker 4: do you want to explain a little bit about what

3960
03:54:39,760 --> 03:54:40,560
Speaker 4: happened to the insitant?

3961
03:54:40,640 --> 03:54:44,680
Speaker 6: First of all, Yeah, So as part of our so

3962
03:54:45,000 --> 03:54:47,080
Speaker 6: I think, as we already talked about, we go out

3963
03:54:47,080 --> 03:54:47,600
Speaker 6: every weekend.

3964
03:54:47,880 --> 03:54:51,400
Speaker 10: And that's again we're all busy laves.

3965
03:54:51,720 --> 03:54:56,440
Speaker 6: Davia's literally a surgeon, and we're basically trying to find

3966
03:54:56,440 --> 03:54:57,280
Speaker 6: a time that we can.

3967
03:54:57,480 --> 03:54:59,040
Speaker 10: Get people together to go out there.

3968
03:54:59,120 --> 03:55:01,880
Speaker 6: So we picked the weekend and we have a you know,

3969
03:55:02,040 --> 03:55:04,040
Speaker 6: changing number of people who are able to be out

3970
03:55:04,080 --> 03:55:08,160
Speaker 6: there with us. So, as one of our normal water

3971
03:55:08,320 --> 03:55:13,560
Speaker 6: drop weekends, a route that starts basically at a road

3972
03:55:14,320 --> 03:55:18,080
Speaker 6: that that has been along the ridge of O Tai Mountain.

3973
03:55:18,560 --> 03:55:21,240
Speaker 6: We start hiking down on the south side towards towards

3974
03:55:21,320 --> 03:55:27,440
Speaker 6: the towards the border, and I've established multiple routes along

3975
03:55:27,520 --> 03:55:32,320
Speaker 6: that path, and this one particularly is so slow going.

3976
03:55:33,000 --> 03:55:35,560
Speaker 10: You only go a couple of miles and it takes.

3977
03:55:35,400 --> 03:55:39,800
Speaker 6: You most of your Saturday because of how steep it is,

3978
03:55:40,600 --> 03:55:44,160
Speaker 6: the how thick though the brush is, and also kind of,

3979
03:55:44,640 --> 03:55:47,400
Speaker 6: as they were saying earlier, even in the middle of

3980
03:55:47,520 --> 03:55:53,080
Speaker 6: day daytime, with hiking boots, it's really treacherous. And we've

3981
03:55:53,640 --> 03:55:55,120
Speaker 6: we spend a lot of time making sure that we're

3982
03:55:55,160 --> 03:55:59,280
Speaker 6: safe in the process of of going to ourselves. So

3983
03:55:59,560 --> 03:56:02,480
Speaker 6: as we we left our first drop and then a

3984
03:56:02,560 --> 03:56:05,040
Speaker 6: second and went down to our final drop and turned

3985
03:56:05,080 --> 03:56:08,600
Speaker 6: back and started going back up the mountain, and we

3986
03:56:09,320 --> 03:56:12,640
Speaker 6: came to our second drop site, and as we arrived

3987
03:56:13,240 --> 03:56:17,360
Speaker 6: we found something that was kind.

3988
03:56:17,240 --> 03:56:20,720
Speaker 10: Of really hard to process at first for us, which

3989
03:56:20,880 --> 03:56:21,120
Speaker 10: was that.

3990
03:56:22,760 --> 03:56:26,920
Speaker 6: Every single item that we had purposefully put inside of

3991
03:56:26,960 --> 03:56:31,680
Speaker 6: a crate and we had counted and we had a

3992
03:56:31,800 --> 03:56:36,360
Speaker 6: left as we do, was scattered and littered across the ground.

3993
03:56:38,280 --> 03:56:42,720
Speaker 6: We had left more than twenty liters of water, and

3994
03:56:43,160 --> 03:56:48,000
Speaker 6: every single bottle of water was opened and dumped out

3995
03:56:48,280 --> 03:56:54,560
Speaker 6: and thrown indiscriminately around this site. We had left again

3996
03:56:54,760 --> 03:57:03,080
Speaker 6: something like twenty hands of food beans, tuna, condensed milk, fruit,

3997
03:57:03,480 --> 03:57:07,480
Speaker 6: and every single can had been opened and had been

3998
03:57:08,160 --> 03:57:12,720
Speaker 6: its contents thrown around the area. We had left bags

3999
03:57:12,760 --> 03:57:17,200
Speaker 6: of socks and hats and those were covered in beans

4000
03:57:17,360 --> 03:57:19,760
Speaker 6: and fruit and again thrown into bushes.

4001
03:57:20,200 --> 03:57:23,000
Speaker 10: They can not be used. We had handwarmers.

4002
03:57:24,200 --> 03:57:28,960
Speaker 6: Because it's very cold and handwarmers are essential to kind

4003
03:57:28,960 --> 03:57:33,720
Speaker 6: of just keep mobility. And every single one was diligently opened,

4004
03:57:33,840 --> 03:57:37,360
Speaker 6: as if someone had really enjoyed taking time opening it

4005
03:57:37,720 --> 03:57:41,120
Speaker 6: and thrusting into the dirt. And that was something that

4006
03:57:41,320 --> 03:57:47,120
Speaker 6: was like so painful and just confusing, very demoralizing, as

4007
03:57:47,160 --> 03:57:50,640
Speaker 6: you can imagine after just hiking that far, but more

4008
03:57:50,720 --> 03:57:53,800
Speaker 6: so it's felt so deliberate and hurtful.

4009
03:57:54,960 --> 03:57:58,240
Speaker 10: And initially were of course wondering what had happened. We've

4010
03:57:58,280 --> 03:57:58,880
Speaker 10: done this for.

4011
03:57:59,040 --> 03:58:02,440
Speaker 6: Several years years and never had we seen something like

4012
03:58:02,520 --> 03:58:08,240
Speaker 6: this before. And it became very apparent that someone had

4013
03:58:08,280 --> 03:58:12,440
Speaker 6: deliberately destroyed our crate. Even the crate itself. This milk

4014
03:58:12,480 --> 03:58:16,000
Speaker 6: carton was smashed in half. The bottom of it was

4015
03:58:16,760 --> 03:58:20,000
Speaker 6: torn out, and that is something that's very hard to achieve.

4016
03:58:20,280 --> 03:58:24,480
Speaker 6: Milk cartons are not very light, thin plastic. This was

4017
03:58:24,560 --> 03:58:28,760
Speaker 6: someone had actively put a lot of force into smashing

4018
03:58:28,840 --> 03:58:31,840
Speaker 6: a milk cart so that nothing was left behind.

4019
03:58:33,320 --> 03:58:34,600
Speaker 10: We on the way down.

4020
03:58:35,360 --> 03:58:37,480
Speaker 6: One thing that I didn't say a second ago was

4021
03:58:37,520 --> 03:58:39,920
Speaker 6: that we had seen an agent on the trail, which

4022
03:58:40,000 --> 03:58:42,320
Speaker 6: was unique for us because normally they're just in their

4023
03:58:42,400 --> 03:58:46,280
Speaker 6: cars with binoculars looking from the road. So we had

4024
03:58:46,600 --> 03:58:50,480
Speaker 6: seen someone near the trail but lost track of them earlier,

4025
03:58:50,520 --> 03:58:52,000
Speaker 6: and we had kind of put it out of our minds.

4026
03:58:52,440 --> 03:58:56,280
Speaker 6: So after it happened, we had kind of put two

4027
03:58:56,320 --> 03:59:00,640
Speaker 6: together and were wondering if this agent had followed us

4028
03:59:00,760 --> 03:59:03,760
Speaker 6: down the trail to the site, and then while we

4029
03:59:03,880 --> 03:59:06,200
Speaker 6: had left, stayed behind and destroyed the goods.

4030
03:59:06,480 --> 03:59:10,240
Speaker 10: It seemed like the beans were still drying and the fruit.

4031
03:59:10,160 --> 03:59:12,160
Speaker 6: Was still drying in the sunlight, so it hadn't have

4032
03:59:12,200 --> 03:59:15,320
Speaker 6: been too too far from the time that we had

4033
03:59:15,720 --> 03:59:19,560
Speaker 6: dropped initially. And this is at a moment that there

4034
03:59:19,680 --> 03:59:21,800
Speaker 6: was five of us and trying to figure out what

4035
03:59:21,960 --> 03:59:23,400
Speaker 6: it meant for us to deal with this.

4036
03:59:24,440 --> 03:59:25,480
Speaker 10: Several two of us.

4037
03:59:25,480 --> 03:59:29,120
Speaker 6: Including myself, raised ahead to try to get interact with

4038
03:59:30,000 --> 03:59:32,200
Speaker 6: whoever has up the trail, knowing that they couldn't have

4039
03:59:32,280 --> 03:59:36,200
Speaker 6: been too far away, not with any specific plan other

4040
03:59:36,320 --> 03:59:37,200
Speaker 6: than just ask.

4041
03:59:37,120 --> 03:59:40,920
Speaker 10: Them what did they do and why did they do that?

4042
03:59:41,600 --> 03:59:44,960
Speaker 6: Just in the sense of outrage, that the sense of

4043
03:59:45,520 --> 03:59:49,640
Speaker 6: just like moral corruption that someone would destroy this in

4044
03:59:49,720 --> 03:59:53,960
Speaker 6: a time that the CBP as well as we know

4045
03:59:54,120 --> 03:59:57,200
Speaker 6: that people are losing their lives because of lack of

4046
03:59:57,280 --> 03:59:59,280
Speaker 6: access to these very goods that were destroyed.

4047
04:00:00,120 --> 04:00:02,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, so we race raced back as fast as we could.

4048
04:00:02,720 --> 04:00:04,680
Speaker 6: It was about a forty five minute hiked back up,

4049
04:00:05,480 --> 04:00:07,440
Speaker 6: and we were really breathless and almost as the kind

4050
04:00:07,440 --> 04:00:09,280
Speaker 6: of wind of feeling sick to our stomachs because we

4051
04:00:09,800 --> 04:00:12,400
Speaker 6: were both outraged and also hikes faster than we should have.

4052
04:00:13,040 --> 04:00:14,960
Speaker 10: And just as we'd gotten back to our cars, kind

4053
04:00:15,000 --> 04:00:15,920
Speaker 10: of giving up hope.

4054
04:00:15,760 --> 04:00:18,640
Speaker 6: That we'd interactt with them, we saw two agents in

4055
04:00:18,720 --> 04:00:22,800
Speaker 6: their cars kind of pull away, uh, and we flagged

4056
04:00:22,840 --> 04:00:25,200
Speaker 6: them down and got in front of them and kind

4057
04:00:25,240 --> 04:00:26,920
Speaker 6: of motion for them to come back so we could

4058
04:00:26,920 --> 04:00:31,040
Speaker 6: speak to them. And I'm not saying we're the most

4059
04:00:31,160 --> 04:00:33,600
Speaker 6: savvy people, but we basically ran up to them and said,

4060
04:00:33,880 --> 04:00:38,000
Speaker 6: did you destroy these are our supplies, to which they

4061
04:00:38,120 --> 04:00:41,400
Speaker 6: acknowledged that they did. And only afterwards were we able

4062
04:00:41,440 --> 04:00:44,320
Speaker 6: to get our wits together to start recording them.

4063
04:00:44,520 --> 04:00:46,440
Speaker 10: And as both here in the audio.

4064
04:00:47,240 --> 04:00:49,200
Speaker 6: They acknowledged the fact that they knew where our site was,

4065
04:00:49,480 --> 04:00:52,840
Speaker 6: and they acknowledged the fact that they regularly destroy goods,

4066
04:00:54,320 --> 04:00:57,680
Speaker 6: and for us, the entire interaction was just so sickening

4067
04:00:58,520 --> 04:01:00,600
Speaker 6: first of it. After a while there was five of

4068
04:01:00,680 --> 04:01:05,080
Speaker 6: them with their guns and they're large guns out as

4069
04:01:05,160 --> 04:01:11,920
Speaker 6: well as their basic intention to use intimidation, their sheer numbers,

4070
04:01:12,040 --> 04:01:14,960
Speaker 6: as well as this kind of perverse authority they have

4071
04:01:15,520 --> 04:01:20,320
Speaker 6: as the soul of agents in charge of this public land,

4072
04:01:20,400 --> 04:01:23,280
Speaker 6: this is wilderness and BLM land, which they have no

4073
04:01:23,440 --> 04:01:28,400
Speaker 6: authority over us, yet use this sense of just power

4074
04:01:28,680 --> 04:01:32,760
Speaker 6: and ability to cause harm to minimize anybody else being able.

4075
04:01:32,600 --> 04:01:34,160
Speaker 10: To advocate for themselves.

4076
04:01:34,200 --> 04:01:37,040
Speaker 6: So we tried to stop them from doing that, and

4077
04:01:37,560 --> 04:01:39,880
Speaker 6: it kept asking them did you destroy our water?

4078
04:01:39,960 --> 04:01:41,240
Speaker 10: And why did you do that? And is that within

4079
04:01:41,280 --> 04:01:42,120
Speaker 10: your job description?

4080
04:01:42,400 --> 04:01:45,320
Speaker 6: Because there was something very clear to them to us

4081
04:01:45,720 --> 04:01:48,240
Speaker 6: that they didn't even know what their legality was. They

4082
04:01:48,360 --> 04:01:52,000
Speaker 6: kept trying to deflect it the conversations saying, oh, migrants

4083
04:01:52,000 --> 04:01:54,400
Speaker 6: are leaving trash all the time, and referring to people

4084
04:01:54,480 --> 04:01:58,000
Speaker 6: as illegal aliens with this kind of larger Rhetorica is

4085
04:01:58,040 --> 04:02:02,120
Speaker 6: saying that like they're they're trashing the mountain side like

4086
04:02:02,200 --> 04:02:05,040
Speaker 6: it's it's their fault. And as we repeatedly asked them,

4087
04:02:05,480 --> 04:02:09,240
Speaker 6: did you destroy our water? And they repeatedly said, well

4088
04:02:09,320 --> 04:02:11,960
Speaker 6: have you seen have you seen what they do and

4089
04:02:12,120 --> 04:02:15,600
Speaker 6: then kind of also saying well, yeah, we we try

4090
04:02:15,640 --> 04:02:17,160
Speaker 6: to clean things up, we try to pick them up.

4091
04:02:17,200 --> 04:02:19,560
Speaker 6: But but but that specific site was too far, so

4092
04:02:19,680 --> 04:02:21,600
Speaker 6: we just left it. We just destroyed it and left it.

4093
04:02:22,080 --> 04:02:25,680
Speaker 6: Which as on the on the piggybacking on their conversation

4094
04:02:25,840 --> 04:02:29,960
Speaker 6: about this trash and that we're littering and they're accusing

4095
04:02:30,080 --> 04:02:33,640
Speaker 6: us of aiding and abetting illegal immigration, they basically have

4096
04:02:33,800 --> 04:02:37,000
Speaker 6: nothing left to say about what their actions meant and

4097
04:02:37,240 --> 04:02:41,360
Speaker 6: without their their purview, their mandate of their jobs, and

4098
04:02:41,720 --> 04:02:44,680
Speaker 6: it was an act you could tell they were uncomfortable

4099
04:02:44,720 --> 04:02:47,240
Speaker 6: with because they were not within their job description. And

4100
04:02:47,800 --> 04:02:49,760
Speaker 6: we asked for their supervisor. They said they're going to

4101
04:02:49,840 --> 04:02:53,240
Speaker 6: on the phone supervisor. The supervisor never materialized, and we

4102
04:02:53,320 --> 04:02:55,760
Speaker 6: can only assume that they had a conversation with somebody,

4103
04:02:56,120 --> 04:02:59,880
Speaker 6: uh in a superior saying back down, what you're doing

4104
04:03:00,280 --> 04:03:05,280
Speaker 6: is is not correct and don't engage further. And since

4105
04:03:05,320 --> 04:03:09,520
Speaker 6: then we've had a conversation with with their superiors and

4106
04:03:09,640 --> 04:03:12,600
Speaker 6: with with CVP offices to the effect of saying that

4107
04:03:13,160 --> 04:03:15,640
Speaker 6: this was not within their job description, and this they

4108
04:03:15,680 --> 04:03:16,920
Speaker 6: did not condone this activity.

4109
04:03:17,360 --> 04:03:21,760
Speaker 10: So kind of looking into that further, they were very.

4110
04:03:21,720 --> 04:03:25,960
Speaker 6: Much acting as individuals, but individuals within a culture of

4111
04:03:26,200 --> 04:03:31,400
Speaker 6: abuse and within a culture of of sabotaging humans access

4112
04:03:31,680 --> 04:03:34,360
Speaker 6: to life saving supplies. And that was nothing new to them,

4113
04:03:34,640 --> 04:03:36,760
Speaker 6: that they that they had nothing. They had never encountered

4114
04:03:36,800 --> 04:03:38,880
Speaker 6: somebody trying to oppose them for doing that.

4115
04:03:58,720 --> 04:04:04,480
Speaker 7: Mere water and all that was that yours, that water,

4116
04:04:04,720 --> 04:04:05,400
Speaker 7: it was at yours too.

4117
04:04:06,480 --> 04:04:08,160
Speaker 10: So it is your property exactly and.

4118
04:04:08,240 --> 04:04:10,400
Speaker 12: You and you slashed it.

4119
04:04:10,640 --> 04:04:13,000
Speaker 10: And I'm wondering why you're just that your property be high.

4120
04:04:13,160 --> 04:04:14,680
Speaker 10: You did not your prop by you were going on

4121
04:04:14,760 --> 04:04:18,440
Speaker 10: a hip while we were on a fad slash.

4122
04:04:18,520 --> 04:04:20,120
Speaker 2: So you guys.

4123
04:04:21,560 --> 04:04:24,360
Speaker 9: In your job description to slash water and open cans.

4124
04:04:24,160 --> 04:04:27,080
Speaker 13: And damn wood all over the profect plant and live

4125
04:04:27,160 --> 04:04:27,920
Speaker 13: in this area.

4126
04:04:28,240 --> 04:04:29,400
Speaker 10: To abandon property.

4127
04:04:30,960 --> 04:04:33,400
Speaker 4: And to your mind, it's a long hike.

4128
04:04:33,440 --> 04:04:34,200
Speaker 1: How I would I do that?

4129
04:04:34,920 --> 04:04:35,120
Speaker 10: Get?

4130
04:04:35,160 --> 04:04:37,200
Speaker 9: You know, I'm like serious, It's okay for you to

4131
04:04:37,240 --> 04:04:40,000
Speaker 9: recap you have converstion and.

4132
04:04:40,040 --> 04:04:42,000
Speaker 4: Patrol within twenty five miles of quarter.

4133
04:04:42,080 --> 04:04:44,120
Speaker 3: Had one hundred to do what and and look for

4134
04:04:44,360 --> 04:04:46,080
Speaker 3: pot probably.

4135
04:04:46,080 --> 04:04:52,280
Speaker 4: Bandon property, the property legal person and what do you

4136
04:04:52,360 --> 04:04:54,360
Speaker 4: do with it? What would you destroy it?

4137
04:04:54,440 --> 04:04:55,920
Speaker 5: We try to clean it up, because they.

4138
04:04:56,160 --> 04:04:57,640
Speaker 9: Know that that's cleaning it up.

4139
04:04:58,280 --> 04:05:01,080
Speaker 10: That's one of the things that not cleaning about it.

4140
04:05:01,320 --> 04:05:03,720
Speaker 12: And you know we're trying to clean it up.

4141
04:05:03,840 --> 04:05:06,440
Speaker 9: That was too far from us. We decided to just

4142
04:05:06,560 --> 04:05:07,480
Speaker 9: trash the whole area.

4143
04:05:08,840 --> 04:05:13,400
Speaker 4: Like when they're funded and equipped and transported and armed

4144
04:05:13,520 --> 04:05:17,080
Speaker 4: by the state, and like, it's not the same as individuals,

4145
04:05:17,160 --> 04:05:19,080
Speaker 4: just because we've seen that in Arizona, right, like people

4146
04:05:19,120 --> 04:05:21,320
Speaker 4: who are militias or what have you going out and

4147
04:05:21,400 --> 04:05:24,880
Speaker 4: sabotaging life saving supplies as well. But it's still a

4148
04:05:24,920 --> 04:05:27,400
Speaker 4: little different when you know, we have to pay taxes

4149
04:05:27,440 --> 04:05:29,560
Speaker 4: for them to go destroy water caches.

4150
04:05:30,640 --> 04:05:33,920
Speaker 6: And these are people who regularly, as we've seen on

4151
04:05:34,000 --> 04:05:39,200
Speaker 6: multiple occasions, use helicopters to try to flush people out

4152
04:05:39,280 --> 04:05:43,840
Speaker 6: of under a tree that they fly within thirty feet

4153
04:05:44,120 --> 04:05:46,520
Speaker 6: of the ground and use the force of the roadors

4154
04:05:46,800 --> 04:05:50,360
Speaker 6: to force people out and upper hillside to waiting cars.

4155
04:05:50,520 --> 04:05:52,880
Speaker 6: So their use of money and the use of force

4156
04:05:53,080 --> 04:05:55,240
Speaker 6: is definitely central to the tactics.

4157
04:05:56,000 --> 04:05:58,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, or he'se helicopters to fire to I guess

4158
04:05:58,640 --> 04:06:02,360
Speaker 4: into Mexico and it did a few years ago. But yeah,

4159
04:06:02,440 --> 04:06:05,640
Speaker 4: it's certainly, And that intimidation is like if I think

4160
04:06:05,720 --> 04:06:07,840
Speaker 4: people again who don't live here might not be familiar

4161
04:06:07,880 --> 04:06:11,360
Speaker 4: with it. Like I've been out in down by the

4162
04:06:11,400 --> 04:06:14,760
Speaker 4: border with KUMIAI people doing religious ceremony and had bortat

4163
04:06:14,840 --> 04:06:18,840
Speaker 4: guys dressed like you know, like Navy seals hanging out

4164
04:06:18,880 --> 04:06:22,080
Speaker 4: with air fifteens and plate carriers. Well, people like burn

4165
04:06:22,160 --> 04:06:26,320
Speaker 4: stage and prey. It's yeah, I mean the militarization if

4166
04:06:26,400 --> 04:06:29,400
Speaker 4: you somehow can't conceive the care of people dying in

4167
04:06:29,440 --> 04:06:32,560
Speaker 4: the desert, the militarization of the border still affects everyone

4168
04:06:32,680 --> 04:06:37,000
Speaker 4: here and it makes our lives left safe. There's a

4169
04:06:37,080 --> 04:06:40,280
Speaker 4: crime crime thinks logan that I always like to like

4170
04:06:40,480 --> 04:06:43,160
Speaker 4: use in these things, which is the border doesn't protect you,

4171
04:06:43,280 --> 04:06:46,480
Speaker 4: it controls you, which I think is kind of apt

4172
04:06:46,560 --> 04:06:50,400
Speaker 4: for this. So now that they've trashed your supplies, right

4173
04:06:50,400 --> 04:06:53,560
Speaker 4: and you found ot they weren't supposed to, I'm interested

4174
04:06:53,720 --> 04:06:57,360
Speaker 4: like how going forward, does that mean that you can't

4175
04:06:57,440 --> 04:06:59,480
Speaker 4: use that rout, you can't drop stuff there? Anymore because

4176
04:06:59,480 --> 04:07:01,760
Speaker 4: you're worried about happening again, or because you're worried about

4177
04:07:01,800 --> 04:07:04,240
Speaker 4: them hanging out there to intercept people who are using

4178
04:07:04,320 --> 04:07:06,440
Speaker 4: your like supply cash.

4179
04:07:08,520 --> 04:07:13,880
Speaker 5: On the contrary, we've learned from the examples of other

4180
04:07:13,960 --> 04:07:18,040
Speaker 5: people who have been doing this work. Em had already

4181
04:07:18,440 --> 04:07:23,880
Speaker 5: mentioned Nomas Mertes no more deaths in Arizona, Doctor Scott Warren.

4182
04:07:24,160 --> 04:07:28,000
Speaker 5: We've learned so much from their example where you know,

4183
04:07:28,120 --> 04:07:30,640
Speaker 5: they were hauled into federal court.

4184
04:07:30,680 --> 04:07:32,480
Speaker 4: And one uh.

4185
04:07:32,880 --> 04:07:37,080
Speaker 5: And so we've learned from from their examples of how

4186
04:07:37,120 --> 04:07:40,480
Speaker 5: to how to do this as well as within here

4187
04:07:40,560 --> 04:07:45,640
Speaker 5: in California. The history of border angels so back a

4188
04:07:45,720 --> 04:07:50,440
Speaker 5: few years ago, Border Patrol was slashing gallons of water

4189
04:07:51,160 --> 04:07:55,600
Speaker 5: in the deserts of eastern San Diego County as well

4190
04:07:55,600 --> 04:07:59,880
Speaker 5: as Imperial County. On one particular day, the border in

4191
04:08:00,040 --> 04:08:05,160
Speaker 5: those volunteers found about fifty gallons of water slashed in

4192
04:08:05,240 --> 04:08:07,960
Speaker 5: the most violent way, and they knew it was Border patrol.

4193
04:08:08,560 --> 04:08:14,760
Speaker 5: And so the way border angels responded was number one,

4194
04:08:15,440 --> 04:08:20,760
Speaker 5: to change their tactics to start dropping supplies a deeper

4195
04:08:21,360 --> 04:08:26,760
Speaker 5: in the back country where the border patrol agents. You know,

4196
04:08:27,120 --> 04:08:31,040
Speaker 5: it's rare to find a BP agent that's motivated enough

4197
04:08:31,120 --> 04:08:33,720
Speaker 5: to really hike, hike for too far away from their

4198
04:08:33,760 --> 04:08:37,960
Speaker 5: air conditioned vehicles in the summertime. So number one, they

4199
04:08:38,000 --> 04:08:43,280
Speaker 5: were going farther away from the roads and highways to

4200
04:08:43,520 --> 04:08:47,200
Speaker 5: the actual routes that people are are walking. Number Two,

4201
04:08:48,160 --> 04:08:55,080
Speaker 5: they punched back hard in public using social media. Back

4202
04:08:55,160 --> 04:08:57,880
Speaker 5: then it was Facebook. You know this is going to

4203
04:08:57,920 --> 04:09:00,800
Speaker 5: be you know, right when Instagram was getting but just

4204
04:09:01,040 --> 04:09:04,000
Speaker 5: you know, getting the word out. And Border Angels is

4205
04:09:04,000 --> 04:09:06,680
Speaker 5: an organization that's been around for decades. They have a

4206
04:09:06,760 --> 04:09:12,480
Speaker 5: big following, the word spread and just like many bullies,

4207
04:09:13,120 --> 04:09:14,800
Speaker 5: you know, they kind of back down if you get

4208
04:09:14,840 --> 04:09:20,920
Speaker 5: in their face sometimes. So that was our experience with

4209
04:09:21,120 --> 04:09:24,440
Speaker 5: this practice of Border patrols slashing gallons in the desert

4210
04:09:24,600 --> 04:09:30,600
Speaker 5: with Border Angels. So when this this crime occurred on

4211
04:09:30,800 --> 04:09:34,000
Speaker 5: March eighteenth in the mountains, we knew we could not

4212
04:09:34,160 --> 04:09:37,000
Speaker 5: back down. So we met back a few days later.

4213
04:09:37,760 --> 04:09:42,880
Speaker 5: That's when, as Emmett mentioned, we witnessed Border Patrol helicopter

4214
04:09:43,480 --> 04:09:47,480
Speaker 5: for about an hour flying about. You know, it seemed like,

4215
04:09:47,800 --> 04:09:51,440
Speaker 5: you know, ten fifteen feet off the ground, really really low,

4216
04:09:51,720 --> 04:09:55,840
Speaker 5: using the rotor wash to flush of flush human beings

4217
04:09:55,880 --> 04:09:57,960
Speaker 5: out of the brush as if they were hunting animals.

4218
04:09:59,240 --> 04:10:01,800
Speaker 5: And then we were back, you know, the next seven

4219
04:10:01,880 --> 04:10:05,080
Speaker 5: days later, after they destroyed the supplies, we went back

4220
04:10:05,160 --> 04:10:08,400
Speaker 5: with a good group number one to clean up this

4221
04:10:09,360 --> 04:10:14,520
Speaker 5: shameful mess these two border patrol goons left. We cleaned

4222
04:10:14,560 --> 04:10:16,840
Speaker 5: up all of all of that stuff, and we left

4223
04:10:17,000 --> 04:10:21,120
Speaker 5: probably what three times the amount of original supplies, and

4224
04:10:21,440 --> 04:10:26,920
Speaker 5: on our milk rates, we actually left laminated signs that

4225
04:10:27,280 --> 04:10:31,880
Speaker 5: addressed one by one all of the accusations that these

4226
04:10:32,720 --> 04:10:39,160
Speaker 5: border patrol agents tried to make against us. So the

4227
04:10:39,320 --> 04:10:44,480
Speaker 5: signs say, do not destroy, do not remove. This is

4228
04:10:44,800 --> 04:10:48,240
Speaker 5: not garbage, we are not littering, and this is not

4229
04:10:48,440 --> 04:10:55,640
Speaker 5: abandoned property. Is these are humanitarian aid supplies protected by

4230
04:10:56,120 --> 04:11:00,720
Speaker 5: federal case law, the nineteen ninety four Protection of Religious

4231
04:11:00,880 --> 04:11:06,960
Speaker 5: Freedom Act, and so on and so forth. So we

4232
04:11:07,080 --> 04:11:10,440
Speaker 5: put those signs just prominently on the milk rates, uh,

4233
04:11:11,240 --> 04:11:13,280
Speaker 5: you know, just to send a message that no, we're

4234
04:11:13,320 --> 04:11:16,400
Speaker 5: not going to back down. We are going to leave supplies.

4235
04:11:17,040 --> 04:11:17,200
Speaker 4: Uh.

4236
04:11:17,760 --> 04:11:21,000
Speaker 5: It is within our rights and it is in support

4237
04:11:21,000 --> 04:11:23,400
Speaker 5: of human rights to do this. So of course we

4238
04:11:23,480 --> 04:11:25,840
Speaker 5: have to be strategic about this. I mean, there is

4239
04:11:26,000 --> 04:11:28,800
Speaker 5: the danger, you know, we're always going back to the

4240
04:11:28,880 --> 04:11:31,680
Speaker 5: same place. You know, we're kind of you know, blowing

4241
04:11:31,760 --> 04:11:33,640
Speaker 5: up the spot as it were. You know, we're bringing

4242
04:11:33,760 --> 04:11:38,200
Speaker 5: heat to a route that's that's needed by people making

4243
04:11:38,280 --> 04:11:41,440
Speaker 5: a crossing, and so we are we are mindful of that,

4244
04:11:41,680 --> 04:11:43,880
Speaker 5: you know, we don't we We try to go to

4245
04:11:44,000 --> 04:11:48,240
Speaker 5: different places on different weekends, uh, and not try to

4246
04:11:48,320 --> 04:11:51,680
Speaker 5: bring too much attention to these paths.

4247
04:11:52,960 --> 04:11:55,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I wonder

4248
04:11:55,720 --> 04:11:58,560
Speaker 4: like if people are I was just thinking for people

4249
04:11:58,600 --> 04:12:00,160
Speaker 4: to visualize the area if they are place, so I

4250
04:12:00,200 --> 04:12:02,240
Speaker 4: could look up on like googless so they could see

4251
04:12:02,480 --> 04:12:06,440
Speaker 4: like where this kind of stuff is happening. If you comfortable,

4252
04:12:06,480 --> 04:12:09,520
Speaker 4: you don't have to give like an exact location obviously.

4253
04:12:09,720 --> 04:12:14,600
Speaker 5: But yeah, actually, I mean, speaking of Google Earth, you

4254
04:12:14,760 --> 04:12:17,720
Speaker 5: mentioned a valley of the Moon. I mean, Google Earth

4255
04:12:17,840 --> 04:12:21,520
Speaker 5: is impressive enough. Anybody can just use Google Earth and

4256
04:12:21,720 --> 04:12:24,240
Speaker 5: zoom in all the way and just follow along the

4257
04:12:24,360 --> 04:12:29,120
Speaker 5: border and you'll find thousands of footpaths. So yeah, it

4258
04:12:29,280 --> 04:12:35,360
Speaker 5: doesn't take yeah, like much detective work to actually visually

4259
04:12:35,720 --> 04:12:40,360
Speaker 5: see these footpaths. But yeah, it's real steep terrain. As

4260
04:12:40,440 --> 04:12:44,080
Speaker 5: Emmett mentioned, the last couple times we've gone back to

4261
04:12:44,240 --> 04:12:49,600
Speaker 5: this spot, where the two agents destroyed the supplies. Emmett

4262
04:12:49,600 --> 04:12:52,400
Speaker 5: has actually brought a mountain climbing rope just to make

4263
04:12:53,000 --> 04:12:56,320
Speaker 5: certain sections easier where we're kind of repelling down this

4264
04:12:56,520 --> 04:13:02,960
Speaker 5: dry waterfall, so really really steep, very loose trails, very

4265
04:13:03,080 --> 04:13:08,880
Speaker 5: easy to break an ankle, and it just in that context,

4266
04:13:09,000 --> 04:13:12,440
Speaker 5: it really it really hits you. We see so many

4267
04:13:14,160 --> 04:13:17,640
Speaker 5: shoes and boots along the path and just have to

4268
04:13:18,200 --> 04:13:22,520
Speaker 5: kind of just pause and think, well, this person lost

4269
04:13:22,840 --> 04:13:25,800
Speaker 5: their shoe, if the if they're the sole of their

4270
04:13:26,000 --> 04:13:32,280
Speaker 5: boot melted off in their hours away from the nearest road,

4271
04:13:32,440 --> 04:13:35,800
Speaker 5: what does it mean? How did they complete the journey?

4272
04:13:35,960 --> 04:13:40,400
Speaker 5: Did they complete their journey? So yeah, a little bit

4273
04:13:40,440 --> 04:13:42,680
Speaker 5: hard to describe, but I guess any yeah, anybody who's

4274
04:13:43,320 --> 04:13:47,600
Speaker 5: I guess kind of familiar with with the southern California steep,

4275
04:13:48,280 --> 04:13:52,280
Speaker 5: steep mountains, loose terrain kind of get the picture.

4276
04:13:52,800 --> 04:13:54,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they can make out value the main

4277
04:13:54,880 --> 04:13:59,000
Speaker 4: there's plenty of pictures of the very intimidating boarder fence

4278
04:13:59,040 --> 04:14:02,120
Speaker 4: that they have there, like three foot I and rusty.

4279
04:14:03,640 --> 04:14:06,640
Speaker 4: Is there anything else that you guys wanted to address

4280
04:14:06,680 --> 04:14:09,520
Speaker 4: that you feel like maybe people don't the people should

4281
04:14:09,600 --> 04:14:11,440
Speaker 4: know about the board that they don't about the work

4282
04:14:11,520 --> 04:14:13,640
Speaker 4: you do that maybe is misunderstood.

4283
04:14:16,560 --> 04:14:19,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, I guess I want to maybe bring up.

4284
04:14:21,360 --> 04:14:24,520
Speaker 6: Some of what it I think is hard to convey

4285
04:14:25,640 --> 04:14:33,800
Speaker 6: to people who aren't there and I know aren't connected

4286
04:14:34,000 --> 04:14:38,360
Speaker 6: to a community who is suffering because of this, or

4287
04:14:39,000 --> 04:14:44,000
Speaker 6: who aren't maybe thinking along the lines of what it

4288
04:14:44,120 --> 04:14:46,160
Speaker 6: means to be a human in this space and actually

4289
04:14:46,440 --> 04:14:52,000
Speaker 6: be risking your life and coming up against helicopters and

4290
04:14:53,920 --> 04:14:59,720
Speaker 6: a federally backed militia who is actively seeking to harm you.

4291
04:15:01,920 --> 04:15:05,400
Speaker 6: None of us in our group are claiming any anything

4292
04:15:05,880 --> 04:15:09,920
Speaker 6: more than just witnessing what it means to be out there.

4293
04:15:10,400 --> 04:15:14,720
Speaker 6: But I guess what's been true for me and in

4294
04:15:14,880 --> 04:15:17,840
Speaker 6: kind of my conversations with my community as over the

4295
04:15:17,920 --> 04:15:23,040
Speaker 6: last couple of years, just trying to share this. There

4296
04:15:23,120 --> 04:15:28,040
Speaker 6: is so much pain that is being inflicted upon this landscape,

4297
04:15:28,800 --> 04:15:31,000
Speaker 6: and there is so much harm that is.

4298
04:15:31,320 --> 04:15:33,920
Speaker 10: Actively supported by our nation.

4299
04:15:35,520 --> 04:15:39,160
Speaker 6: While people are in some of the most intimate and

4300
04:15:39,480 --> 04:15:40,680
Speaker 6: painful moments of their lives.

4301
04:15:43,040 --> 04:15:45,640
Speaker 10: Leaving your home, whether it be in.

4302
04:15:47,280 --> 04:15:49,800
Speaker 6: Another continent where you need to take a flight a

4303
04:15:49,920 --> 04:15:53,160
Speaker 6: flight over to make this crossing, or whether it be

4304
04:15:53,920 --> 04:15:57,840
Speaker 6: hiking through Central America starting in South America for months

4305
04:15:57,920 --> 04:16:01,680
Speaker 6: before reaching this moment, or leaving your your your family,

4306
04:16:01,920 --> 04:16:02,400
Speaker 6: in your in.

4307
04:16:02,400 --> 04:16:05,000
Speaker 10: Your community closer to the to the to the border.

4308
04:16:05,680 --> 04:16:10,800
Speaker 6: This these are moments that anyone who is alive could

4309
04:16:10,920 --> 04:16:15,160
Speaker 6: feel the pain of and the misery of having to

4310
04:16:15,600 --> 04:16:19,520
Speaker 6: abandoned all that you know and put yourself at the

4311
04:16:19,640 --> 04:16:26,320
Speaker 6: mercy of of the desert. And CBPS overly aggressive and

4312
04:16:26,840 --> 04:16:31,280
Speaker 6: and and had harmful tactics. So beyond all of the

4313
04:16:31,400 --> 04:16:35,320
Speaker 6: cases and the politics, I just I I oftentimes, as

4314
04:16:35,320 --> 04:16:38,280
Speaker 6: we're walking, just try to put myself in the position

4315
04:16:38,840 --> 04:16:42,440
Speaker 6: of someone who is who is making these decisions. And

4316
04:16:42,560 --> 04:16:47,200
Speaker 6: as Dave was saying, we're coming across people's clothing, food, underwear,

4317
04:16:47,480 --> 04:16:53,080
Speaker 6: places they've slept, and the amount of the poignancy of

4318
04:16:53,920 --> 04:16:58,360
Speaker 6: human desire to be safe, to to come to a

4319
04:16:58,400 --> 04:17:00,200
Speaker 6: place where they feel like their lives can be.

4320
04:17:02,120 --> 04:17:05,720
Speaker 10: Protected, or that that choice.

4321
04:17:05,560 --> 04:17:09,000
Speaker 6: Is worthwhile is something that is so lost in the numbers,

4322
04:17:09,160 --> 04:17:12,680
Speaker 6: in the amount of people who die or what happens

4323
04:17:12,720 --> 04:17:16,480
Speaker 6: after it. And so for us, I think making it

4324
04:17:16,640 --> 04:17:20,280
Speaker 6: not about your political beliefs or the asylum process, but

4325
04:17:20,440 --> 04:17:25,200
Speaker 6: just the actual choices people are are half having to

4326
04:17:25,320 --> 04:17:29,800
Speaker 6: make very human decisions that is something that is kind

4327
04:17:29,800 --> 04:17:34,680
Speaker 6: of haunts us, and the feeling that all we can

4328
04:17:35,000 --> 04:17:37,320
Speaker 6: do is leave water in a place that it might

4329
04:17:37,720 --> 04:17:42,120
Speaker 6: make the difference between someone in that position surviving or not.

4330
04:17:43,880 --> 04:17:47,560
Speaker 6: And furthermore, just living in a community where you know,

4331
04:17:47,680 --> 04:17:49,840
Speaker 6: from the top of the mountain we can see downtown

4332
04:17:49,920 --> 04:17:54,080
Speaker 6: San Diego and all of the luxury of this military town,

4333
04:17:54,720 --> 04:17:57,000
Speaker 6: all of the universities and all of this opportunity that

4334
04:17:57,120 --> 04:18:02,760
Speaker 6: we enjoy, and just a couple miles away, the lack

4335
04:18:02,960 --> 04:18:06,960
Speaker 6: of access to just water. The feeling how similar humans

4336
04:18:07,000 --> 04:18:09,920
Speaker 6: are to each other in our basic needs and how

4337
04:18:10,000 --> 04:18:14,680
Speaker 6: that's being taken from people is really is really harmful,

4338
04:18:14,720 --> 04:18:17,440
Speaker 6: And particularly as you were saying, these are areas held

4339
04:18:17,480 --> 04:18:22,200
Speaker 6: sacred by the Kumii people and have been places of

4340
04:18:22,280 --> 04:18:25,320
Speaker 6: migration for at least ten thousand years. These are places

4341
04:18:25,400 --> 04:18:28,640
Speaker 6: that were difficult to travel and that people did for

4342
04:18:28,760 --> 04:18:32,040
Speaker 6: similar reasons to survive, to be safe, and there is

4343
04:18:32,080 --> 04:18:37,600
Speaker 6: a legacy of oyas of clay pots buried in the

4344
04:18:37,720 --> 04:18:43,400
Speaker 6: sand for travelers that has been ongoing for thousands of years.

4345
04:18:43,600 --> 04:18:47,640
Speaker 6: And for our current administration and government to create this

4346
04:18:47,920 --> 04:18:51,960
Speaker 6: wall in this place of so much pain is just

4347
04:18:52,160 --> 04:18:57,560
Speaker 6: testament to just the insanity of our desire to protect

4348
04:18:57,840 --> 04:19:02,280
Speaker 6: border against something else, actually the borders against something that

4349
04:19:02,520 --> 04:19:05,680
Speaker 6: we feel is harmful to us. Meanwhile, this migration is

4350
04:19:05,720 --> 04:19:08,560
Speaker 6: fundamentally how we survive and how we respond to these

4351
04:19:08,640 --> 04:19:13,640
Speaker 6: moments of change in humanity, and criminalizing that and closing

4352
04:19:13,680 --> 04:19:15,320
Speaker 6: hard with that is just barbaric.

4353
04:19:15,960 --> 04:19:18,160
Speaker 5: I'll let you collect your thoughts and you can come

4354
04:19:18,240 --> 04:19:20,080
Speaker 5: back and make that statement, because I think you do

4355
04:19:20,200 --> 04:19:22,480
Speaker 5: it very eloquently, But I want to jump on there

4356
04:19:22,960 --> 04:19:27,000
Speaker 5: and just kind of echo and elaborate on what you said. Yeah,

4357
04:19:27,040 --> 04:19:31,320
Speaker 5: we find lots and lots of physical items, but we

4358
04:19:31,440 --> 04:19:35,000
Speaker 5: also meet people on the trails, and that's a new thing.

4359
04:19:35,120 --> 04:19:35,280
Speaker 2: You know.

4360
04:19:35,360 --> 04:19:38,080
Speaker 5: I've been doing these water drops for some time now.

4361
04:19:39,320 --> 04:19:42,080
Speaker 5: But you know, when you say what has changed under Biden,

4362
04:19:43,200 --> 04:19:47,200
Speaker 5: not much. There's more people crossing the border than ever.

4363
04:19:47,880 --> 04:19:51,440
Speaker 5: There are more people dying than ever. As far as

4364
04:19:51,600 --> 04:19:56,200
Speaker 5: as a volunteer who spends most weekends out in the borderlands,

4365
04:19:56,840 --> 04:20:00,560
Speaker 5: the only thing I noticed is they stopped building Trump's

4366
04:20:00,760 --> 04:20:04,000
Speaker 5: thirty foot high fence and they started pouring all that

4367
04:20:04,320 --> 04:20:08,240
Speaker 5: money into electronic surveillance, where every single month we see

4368
04:20:08,360 --> 04:20:12,640
Speaker 5: more towers popping up all along the border with all

4369
04:20:12,760 --> 04:20:18,400
Speaker 5: kinds of very very fancy, military grade surveillance equipment and

4370
04:20:18,480 --> 04:20:23,480
Speaker 5: as well as aerial surveillance. Lots of airplanes, helicopters. I'm

4371
04:20:23,520 --> 04:20:26,080
Speaker 5: not sure if they're using drones, but we certainly there's

4372
04:20:26,120 --> 04:20:30,240
Speaker 5: a lot of aerial surveillance. But what we see as

4373
04:20:30,280 --> 04:20:34,160
Speaker 5: far as the human dimension is in the old days,

4374
04:20:34,840 --> 04:20:38,880
Speaker 5: you know, we see footprints, We see shoe covers, you know,

4375
04:20:38,960 --> 04:20:41,360
Speaker 5: which people wear on their feet to hide their footprints

4376
04:20:41,400 --> 04:20:46,360
Speaker 5: from border patrol. We see the empty water bottles and

4377
04:20:46,520 --> 04:20:51,440
Speaker 5: discarded clothing. But now we're encountering people pretty much every

4378
04:20:51,680 --> 04:20:54,920
Speaker 5: time we do a water drop because the number of

4379
04:20:54,960 --> 04:20:59,280
Speaker 5: people crossing is so high. People are crossing in the daytime,

4380
04:20:59,600 --> 04:21:02,720
Speaker 5: whereas in the past usually they would cross at night.

4381
04:21:03,320 --> 04:21:06,240
Speaker 5: So wouldn't you say, emmittt like pretty much it's it's

4382
04:21:06,320 --> 04:21:09,320
Speaker 5: pretty much every time we go out, at least one

4383
04:21:09,400 --> 04:21:14,400
Speaker 5: of our volunteers, if not the whole group, sees or

4384
04:21:14,520 --> 04:21:21,920
Speaker 5: even interacts with a migrant on the paths. And you know,

4385
04:21:22,200 --> 04:21:26,080
Speaker 5: and of course we respect, we respect their autonomy, their privacy.

4386
04:21:26,160 --> 04:21:28,160
Speaker 5: We don't engage with them if they don't want to

4387
04:21:28,240 --> 04:21:33,240
Speaker 5: engage with us. But the thing that I'll never forget

4388
04:21:33,920 --> 04:21:37,240
Speaker 5: is about a month ago, we were out in this

4389
04:21:37,400 --> 04:21:42,080
Speaker 5: exact same area, supplying the same path, and it was

4390
04:21:42,160 --> 04:21:48,080
Speaker 5: a rainy day, cold, we were wearing our gortex insulated clothing.

4391
04:21:48,560 --> 04:21:50,960
Speaker 5: We'd done a water drop. While we were doing the

4392
04:21:51,000 --> 04:21:54,120
Speaker 5: water drop, we can see on the next mountain peak

4393
04:21:54,880 --> 04:22:00,480
Speaker 5: Border Patrol helicopter landing to pick up somebody who required rescue.

4394
04:22:00,640 --> 04:22:03,320
Speaker 5: And this is a case that we had been getting

4395
04:22:03,400 --> 04:22:07,320
Speaker 5: updates all night with Armadillos, one of the search groups,

4396
04:22:07,840 --> 04:22:14,480
Speaker 5: and thankfully this person was found alive and Border Patrol

4397
04:22:14,880 --> 04:22:20,560
Speaker 5: was so called rescuing him another word for arresting him.

4398
04:22:21,200 --> 04:22:26,120
Speaker 5: And after we witnessed that, we hiked back to our vehicles,

4399
04:22:26,720 --> 04:22:31,400
Speaker 5: and just as we were getting to the trailhead, the

4400
04:22:31,520 --> 04:22:35,760
Speaker 5: exact same location where on March eighteenth, Emmett and other

4401
04:22:35,880 --> 04:22:38,920
Speaker 5: volunteers had this interaction with the two Border Patrol agents

4402
04:22:39,120 --> 04:22:43,040
Speaker 5: who destroyed the humanitarian aid supplies, the exact same parking spot.

4403
04:22:44,240 --> 04:22:46,720
Speaker 5: We pop out and start walking toward our vehicles and

4404
04:22:46,800 --> 04:22:51,800
Speaker 5: it starts snowing, and two individuals come out of the

4405
04:22:51,880 --> 04:22:56,200
Speaker 5: mist and approach us and start talking to us in

4406
04:22:56,320 --> 04:23:02,280
Speaker 5: Spanish and talking to the these two people, these two men,

4407
04:23:02,880 --> 04:23:06,680
Speaker 5: one one young, one middle aged in the course of

4408
04:23:06,720 --> 04:23:10,520
Speaker 5: the conversation. You know, sorry, I kind of choke up

4409
04:23:10,560 --> 04:23:11,960
Speaker 5: when I talk about this stuff.

4410
04:23:12,600 --> 04:23:15,000
Speaker 4: Yes it's okay, but yeah.

4411
04:23:15,120 --> 04:23:18,880
Speaker 5: So this is the younger of the two. I was

4412
04:23:18,960 --> 04:23:23,560
Speaker 5: sixteen years old and the older dude was his father.

4413
04:23:24,840 --> 04:23:28,040
Speaker 5: We encountered them as it was snowing, so of course,

4414
04:23:28,160 --> 04:23:30,920
Speaker 5: first thing we did is got them in our vehicles.

4415
04:23:32,000 --> 04:23:36,440
Speaker 5: One of our volunteers, avid hiker, had his backpacking stove

4416
04:23:36,560 --> 04:23:40,600
Speaker 5: with him and cooked up some tea and some you know,

4417
04:23:40,800 --> 04:23:43,320
Speaker 5: gave them food and you know, let them warm up.

4418
04:23:43,440 --> 04:23:47,640
Speaker 5: We gave them literally the you know Gorte's winter coats

4419
04:23:47,720 --> 04:23:51,760
Speaker 5: offer backs to warm up and once you know, the

4420
04:23:51,880 --> 04:23:58,120
Speaker 5: dad was shivering violently, really really showing signs of clinical hypothermia.

4421
04:23:59,240 --> 04:24:02,800
Speaker 5: And talking to the younger man, who was in better

4422
04:24:02,880 --> 04:24:05,520
Speaker 5: physical shape, he was explaining that the two of them

4423
04:24:06,160 --> 04:24:11,280
Speaker 5: were hiking through the mountains because his mother was already

4424
04:24:11,520 --> 04:24:14,000
Speaker 5: living in the USA. They were trying to reunite with

4425
04:24:14,120 --> 04:24:19,960
Speaker 5: her and they had been in this mountainous region for

4426
04:24:20,080 --> 04:24:26,160
Speaker 5: the past two days. And looking at them, they're wearing hoodies,

4427
04:24:26,560 --> 04:24:31,960
Speaker 5: you know, like you know, sweatshirts, sweatpants and sneakers in

4428
04:24:32,120 --> 04:24:34,720
Speaker 5: this and anybody who lives down here in southern California.

4429
04:24:34,760 --> 04:24:38,760
Speaker 5: You know, we've had a very unusual winter, lots and

4430
04:24:38,880 --> 04:24:44,000
Speaker 5: lots of rain, so it had been raining heavily over

4431
04:24:44,080 --> 04:24:49,920
Speaker 5: the past two days and nighttime temperatures in the thirties,

4432
04:24:50,240 --> 04:24:53,120
Speaker 5: and these two men had been out there for two

4433
04:24:53,240 --> 04:24:58,120
Speaker 5: days soaked to the bone, and that's why they approached us,

4434
04:24:58,240 --> 04:25:01,720
Speaker 5: because they were in trouble and were asking for help.

4435
04:25:02,760 --> 04:25:07,240
Speaker 5: So after they warmed up, we discussed the options. Of course,

4436
04:25:07,360 --> 04:25:11,320
Speaker 5: you know, we we we respect their autonomy. You know,

4437
04:25:11,480 --> 04:25:14,760
Speaker 5: they have the option to try to continue going on

4438
04:25:14,920 --> 04:25:19,760
Speaker 5: their way with with supplies or if they felt it

4439
04:25:19,880 --> 04:25:24,320
Speaker 5: was unsafe to do so we were ready to help them.

4440
04:25:24,480 --> 04:25:27,240
Speaker 5: The heartbreaking thing is, you know they did ask us

4441
04:25:27,400 --> 04:25:32,400
Speaker 5: could we let them ride in our vehicles off the mountain,

4442
04:25:33,240 --> 04:25:35,840
Speaker 5: and we had to explain that, you know, we're we're

4443
04:25:35,960 --> 04:25:39,880
Speaker 5: pretty much guaranteed to encounter Order patrol agents on that

4444
04:25:40,120 --> 04:25:44,120
Speaker 5: road and that really it's not something that we could

4445
04:25:44,200 --> 04:25:47,240
Speaker 5: do because you know that that that you know, we

4446
04:25:47,520 --> 04:25:51,040
Speaker 5: we could be arrested and charged, you know, for federal

4447
04:25:51,120 --> 04:25:54,040
Speaker 5: felony crimes. But we said, look, you know, if you

4448
04:25:54,160 --> 04:25:57,880
Speaker 5: really feel you can't continue, we will help you. Contact

4449
04:25:58,280 --> 04:26:01,040
Speaker 5: you know, call nine to one one that we explained

4450
04:26:01,160 --> 04:26:03,480
Speaker 5: that's that's one hundred percent going to result in border

4451
04:26:03,560 --> 04:26:09,960
Speaker 5: patrol coming because as folks may know, you know, you know,

4452
04:26:10,080 --> 04:26:15,160
Speaker 5: in the USA along the border, you know, emergency medical response,

4453
04:26:15,320 --> 04:26:19,240
Speaker 5: search and rescue is unfortunately considered in the domain of

4454
04:26:19,320 --> 04:26:23,760
Speaker 5: law enforcement. So if you are a US citizen, or

4455
04:26:23,880 --> 04:26:27,600
Speaker 5: if you are someone from another country that happened to

4456
04:26:27,680 --> 04:26:30,800
Speaker 5: come here and have a visa or just be considered

4457
04:26:31,080 --> 04:26:33,360
Speaker 5: the good type of foreigner, you know, you're going to

4458
04:26:33,400 --> 04:26:38,560
Speaker 5: have a very impressive response with sheriffs, Sheriff's Department, search

4459
04:26:38,600 --> 04:26:43,320
Speaker 5: and rescue, volunteer organizations. If there's any hint that you

4460
04:26:43,480 --> 04:26:48,240
Speaker 5: may be a so called undocumented person, you immediately get

4461
04:26:48,360 --> 04:26:51,360
Speaker 5: sent to border patrol and you have you know, boor

4462
04:26:51,480 --> 04:26:55,600
Speaker 5: Star respond the Border Patrols Search and Rescue group, which

4463
04:26:55,680 --> 04:27:01,360
Speaker 5: is a far cry from the civilian search and rescue folks.

4464
04:27:01,400 --> 04:27:03,600
Speaker 5: So we explain to them if we call nine one one,

4465
04:27:04,040 --> 04:27:06,680
Speaker 5: you're going to be apprehended, You're going to be arrested

4466
04:27:06,760 --> 04:27:10,480
Speaker 5: by border patrol. And after thinking about it and discussing,

4467
04:27:10,560 --> 04:27:13,760
Speaker 5: they said, yeah, we you know, we cannot continue where

4468
04:27:14,240 --> 04:27:17,120
Speaker 5: you know, this is too dangerous. So we did call

4469
04:27:17,240 --> 04:27:22,400
Speaker 5: nine one one, and border patrol did come and frisked

4470
04:27:22,560 --> 04:27:27,720
Speaker 5: them and cuff them and uh, yeah, yeah I did

4471
04:27:27,840 --> 04:27:32,280
Speaker 5: arrest them. And yeah, that's not not the only time

4472
04:27:33,320 --> 04:27:38,120
Speaker 5: too often we have witnessed human beings being arrested by

4473
04:27:38,160 --> 04:27:38,840
Speaker 5: border patrol.

4474
04:27:40,400 --> 04:27:44,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think I think

4475
04:27:44,560 --> 04:27:48,840
Speaker 4: it's really important to give like put like faces and

4476
04:27:48,960 --> 04:27:51,880
Speaker 4: names to these things, rather than the border patrol will

4477
04:27:51,920 --> 04:27:55,480
Speaker 4: constantly talk about a million whatever encounters, right, they like

4478
04:27:55,560 --> 04:27:57,680
Speaker 4: to fucking inflate the numbers. It's often the same people,

4479
04:27:57,800 --> 04:28:02,120
Speaker 4: but it each one of those is a tragedy every

4480
04:28:02,120 --> 04:28:05,520
Speaker 4: time someone has to make a choice between risking their

4481
04:28:05,600 --> 04:28:08,160
Speaker 4: life in one place or risking their life coming to

4482
04:28:08,240 --> 04:28:10,840
Speaker 4: another place just so their kids can have a crack

4483
04:28:10,880 --> 04:28:13,480
Speaker 4: at growing up safely, or so they can be safe,

4484
04:28:13,960 --> 04:28:16,800
Speaker 4: so they can experience like one tenth of the things

4485
04:28:16,840 --> 04:28:19,640
Speaker 4: that we take for granted every day, Like, that's an

4486
04:28:19,680 --> 04:28:23,720
Speaker 4: incredible human tragedy. And yeah, they happen every single day,

4487
04:28:23,760 --> 04:28:26,560
Speaker 4: every hour of every day at our border because of

4488
04:28:26,760 --> 04:28:30,880
Speaker 4: the things that our government does there. And yeah, it's

4489
04:28:30,920 --> 04:28:34,960
Speaker 4: important to feel that stuff because I think that's it

4490
04:28:35,040 --> 04:28:37,000
Speaker 4: should provoke in all of us a very strong reaction

4491
04:28:38,400 --> 04:28:41,360
Speaker 4: it's pretty messed up that it's almost universal bipartisan agreement

4492
04:28:41,400 --> 04:28:44,840
Speaker 4: that it's fine and okay by people who have never

4493
04:28:44,920 --> 04:28:46,200
Speaker 4: been hearing and don't understand.

4494
04:28:47,840 --> 04:28:50,520
Speaker 5: One other thing I want to add and and emt

4495
04:28:50,600 --> 04:28:53,200
Speaker 5: you may have other things. One thing I wanted to

4496
04:28:53,720 --> 04:28:58,680
Speaker 5: really center is something we've referenced several times. Cumye you

4497
04:28:58,760 --> 04:29:03,120
Speaker 5: know this is this is Cumiate Land. These are the

4498
04:29:03,200 --> 04:29:07,600
Speaker 5: indigenous people who have lived here since the beginning of time.

4499
04:29:09,120 --> 04:29:13,960
Speaker 5: The archaeological record goes back ten thousand years, but we

4500
04:29:14,120 --> 04:29:18,920
Speaker 5: know people have been here since the beginning of human time. Really,

4501
04:29:19,680 --> 04:29:24,440
Speaker 5: and look at the map, the so called border cuts

4502
04:29:24,480 --> 04:29:31,360
Speaker 5: in half traditional Cuma territory. When we do these water

4503
04:29:31,440 --> 04:29:34,760
Speaker 5: drops out in the desert or in the mountains, you know,

4504
04:29:35,120 --> 04:29:39,040
Speaker 5: these these paths that that people are using to migrate

4505
04:29:39,280 --> 04:29:45,560
Speaker 5: are often or in many many cases traditional Cumi paths.

4506
04:29:46,440 --> 04:29:50,560
Speaker 5: And we see evidence of that every time we, you know,

4507
04:29:50,640 --> 04:29:54,720
Speaker 5: do a water drop, especially out out in the desert

4508
04:29:54,840 --> 04:29:57,840
Speaker 5: area where it's a rare water drop, that we will

4509
04:29:57,920 --> 04:30:02,960
Speaker 5: not find pottery sharp lying lying in the sand, or

4510
04:30:03,080 --> 04:30:09,080
Speaker 5: come across rock shelters, uh, some with pictographs and uh

4511
04:30:09,240 --> 04:30:12,280
Speaker 5: the you know, it's just uh, you know, very poignant

4512
04:30:12,360 --> 04:30:18,480
Speaker 5: juxtaposition of of Kumai cultural artifacts with modern day you know,

4513
04:30:19,040 --> 04:30:23,280
Speaker 5: shoe covers, discarded water bottles, and of course many people

4514
04:30:23,320 --> 04:30:31,280
Speaker 5: who do migrate are indigenous uh them themselves. So yeah, personally,

4515
04:30:31,480 --> 04:30:35,800
Speaker 5: you know, I view all of these border issues through

4516
04:30:35,880 --> 04:30:42,000
Speaker 5: the lens of history culture, with with the core truth

4517
04:30:42,400 --> 04:30:46,800
Speaker 5: that this is indigenous land, this is Cumi land, and

4518
04:30:46,920 --> 04:30:51,920
Speaker 5: it has always been and uh, the modern so called

4519
04:30:52,000 --> 04:30:58,520
Speaker 5: border is a very recent, uh political creation, you know that,

4520
04:30:58,760 --> 04:31:02,400
Speaker 5: you know, mid nineteeth century. You know, before that this

4521
04:31:02,560 --> 04:31:07,440
Speaker 5: was Mexico and now now where we call it the USA.

4522
04:31:07,800 --> 04:31:12,400
Speaker 5: But this is all recent and from my perspective, unless

4523
04:31:12,480 --> 04:31:15,760
Speaker 5: you are a Kumie, I really don't know how anybody

4524
04:31:16,560 --> 04:31:19,560
Speaker 5: could can really get on their high horse and really

4525
04:31:20,160 --> 04:31:24,360
Speaker 5: speak with any authority about who belongs here, who belongs here,

4526
04:31:24,400 --> 04:31:28,360
Speaker 5: who doesn't belong here, Because the rest of us, we

4527
04:31:28,440 --> 04:31:33,080
Speaker 5: are all guests on Kumie ied land. That includes every

4528
04:31:33,120 --> 04:31:37,000
Speaker 5: single border patrol agent. And that's that's something I always

4529
04:31:37,120 --> 04:31:37,760
Speaker 5: like to remember.

4530
04:31:38,400 --> 04:31:41,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, the border is very much like colonialism in action,

4531
04:31:41,800 --> 04:31:45,200
Speaker 4: and it see even we're going to have some Cumi folks,

4532
04:31:45,240 --> 04:31:46,960
Speaker 4: hopefully in the next couple of weeks to talk about

4533
04:31:47,000 --> 04:31:49,960
Speaker 4: the desecration of Kumii Burial site by the border wall,

4534
04:31:50,040 --> 04:31:53,080
Speaker 4: which is an ongoing thing, Like I haven't stopped when

4535
04:31:53,160 --> 04:31:55,320
Speaker 4: the just I can't tell stories about it like I

4536
04:31:55,360 --> 04:31:58,200
Speaker 4: could in twenty twenty, because you know, Orange Man Bad

4537
04:31:58,320 --> 04:32:02,160
Speaker 4: isn't a thing anymore. But yeah, they're all across the border, right,

4538
04:32:02,240 --> 04:32:06,040
Speaker 4: not just here that the Yaki, the all across the

4539
04:32:06,120 --> 04:32:08,560
Speaker 4: border is native. The whole of the circle the United

4540
04:32:08,600 --> 04:32:12,120
Speaker 4: States is Native land, and it's not Indigenous folks out

4541
04:32:12,160 --> 04:32:15,480
Speaker 4: there trying to kill people in the desert. Is there

4542
04:32:15,520 --> 04:32:17,440
Speaker 4: anything that you wanted to add?

4543
04:32:19,040 --> 04:32:20,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, I just want to say this.

4544
04:32:20,680 --> 04:32:23,840
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know we're able forever, so we'll start

4545
04:32:24,120 --> 04:32:28,320
Speaker 6: rambling a second. But I guess I really want to say,

4546
04:32:28,440 --> 04:32:31,680
Speaker 6: and this is coming from a very skewed white males perspective,

4547
04:32:31,760 --> 04:32:35,040
Speaker 6: but I just feel like so much of these power

4548
04:32:35,080 --> 04:32:38,320
Speaker 6: structures that we're engaged with, and us as a nasan

4549
04:32:38,560 --> 04:32:43,440
Speaker 6: trying to find our identity, it's so hypocritical, particularly in

4550
04:32:43,520 --> 04:32:48,000
Speaker 6: this moment where the climate and social instability is at

4551
04:32:48,040 --> 04:32:50,840
Speaker 6: its height. I mean in my lifetime and I think

4552
04:32:50,880 --> 04:32:52,320
Speaker 6: in many of our lifetimes, we see this is a

4553
04:32:52,360 --> 04:32:57,320
Speaker 6: really precarious moment. It just feels so so hypocritical to

4554
04:32:58,800 --> 04:33:03,080
Speaker 6: police people's sovereign tees to find safety and to be

4555
04:33:03,240 --> 04:33:06,120
Speaker 6: in safety. You know, we we have all of these

4556
04:33:06,160 --> 04:33:11,120
Speaker 6: ideals in our country around respecting each other's freedoms, and

4557
04:33:11,240 --> 04:33:14,600
Speaker 6: also as we are importing and exporting so many goods

4558
04:33:14,800 --> 04:33:19,280
Speaker 6: and also so much culture and so fundamentally intertwined with

4559
04:33:20,360 --> 04:33:24,240
Speaker 6: the lives of people from all over the world. For

4560
04:33:24,440 --> 04:33:27,000
Speaker 6: us to say what is wrong and what is right

4561
04:33:27,040 --> 04:33:29,080
Speaker 6: in this moment, and for us to have this this

4562
04:33:29,240 --> 04:33:35,720
Speaker 6: moral authority to to put people in prison just for

4563
04:33:36,160 --> 04:33:39,400
Speaker 6: for for seeking safety for many years, and of course

4564
04:33:39,440 --> 04:33:41,600
Speaker 6: I have many people I know and live with who

4565
04:33:41,640 --> 04:33:44,280
Speaker 6: have been in in who we're in attention for for

4566
04:33:44,440 --> 04:33:49,800
Speaker 6: several years, for seeking that the amount of just how

4567
04:33:49,880 --> 04:33:54,440
Speaker 6: twisted it is that we are comfortable spending our lives

4568
04:33:54,919 --> 04:34:00,160
Speaker 6: as Americans never considering or never really critically engaging.

4569
04:34:00,680 --> 04:34:02,040
Speaker 5: With this active.

4570
04:34:04,200 --> 04:34:10,040
Speaker 6: Pursuit, these actions to to limit people's ability to survive.

4571
04:34:10,840 --> 04:34:13,720
Speaker 6: It feels like it really needs to be centered in

4572
04:34:13,800 --> 04:34:17,280
Speaker 6: this conversation. And again this is coming from my skewed perspective,

4573
04:34:17,400 --> 04:34:22,040
Speaker 6: but I just I really want to make the point clear.

4574
04:34:22,160 --> 04:34:26,919
Speaker 10: This is not about this is not about these these

4575
04:34:27,000 --> 04:34:30,960
Speaker 10: lofty ideals of what a country could be or who

4576
04:34:31,040 --> 04:34:33,440
Speaker 10: and who is not justified or useful.

4577
04:34:33,480 --> 04:34:40,880
Speaker 6: In our country, we make these arbitrary assessments of what's

4578
04:34:41,080 --> 04:34:44,559
Speaker 6: justified or what's legal and not legal, and very often

4579
04:34:44,680 --> 04:34:48,200
Speaker 6: those are just continuing the legacy of exploitation of black

4580
04:34:48,240 --> 04:34:52,559
Speaker 6: and brown people, the exploitation of landscapes, the expectation of labor,

4581
04:34:53,080 --> 04:34:58,680
Speaker 6: the exploitation of people whose voices are not heard, and politically,

4582
04:34:58,840 --> 04:35:04,719
Speaker 6: economically and continuing a conversation of an O time Masage center,

4583
04:35:05,800 --> 04:35:09,440
Speaker 6: the people who are attained are are are cleaning their

4584
04:35:09,480 --> 04:35:12,600
Speaker 6: own cells, and they're their their their labor is actually

4585
04:35:12,600 --> 04:35:15,200
Speaker 6: being exploited as well. You can't distinguish the fact that

4586
04:35:15,280 --> 04:35:17,640
Speaker 6: there is the history of policing in our country, in

4587
04:35:17,680 --> 04:35:21,120
Speaker 6: the history of prisons is specifically a project to continue

4588
04:35:21,360 --> 04:35:27,640
Speaker 6: white supremacy. And you can see particularly the differential policing

4589
04:35:27,800 --> 04:35:34,120
Speaker 6: of immigration currently and the differential way that certain people

4590
04:35:34,160 --> 04:35:37,000
Speaker 6: from certain countries are or are not valid UH to

4591
04:35:37,720 --> 04:35:39,880
Speaker 6: UH to enter this country and and at.

4592
04:35:39,759 --> 04:35:40,720
Speaker 10: The very least.

4593
04:35:42,000 --> 04:35:45,800
Speaker 6: Be treated with respect and dignity in their process. And

4594
04:35:45,880 --> 04:35:51,480
Speaker 6: that's what we see CBP every single day, violating people's

4595
04:35:51,640 --> 04:35:54,760
Speaker 6: basic access to human dignity and acts to life, which

4596
04:35:54,759 --> 04:35:59,360
Speaker 6: are protected by all nations in writing and very often

4597
04:35:59,680 --> 04:36:00,520
Speaker 6: not in practice.

4598
04:36:01,480 --> 04:36:03,399
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and as well said like it's a very

4599
04:36:03,440 --> 04:36:06,600
Speaker 4: basic human thing. It doesn't need to be like shrouded

4600
04:36:06,680 --> 04:36:10,480
Speaker 4: in constitutional law. And like you also said, the capital

4601
04:36:10,560 --> 04:36:14,880
Speaker 4: flows very freely across across the border, but people aren't

4602
04:36:14,919 --> 04:36:19,360
Speaker 4: allowed to and yeah, it's pretty messed up. Guys. Where

4603
04:36:19,400 --> 04:36:21,400
Speaker 4: can people if they want to support, if they want

4604
04:36:21,440 --> 04:36:23,760
Speaker 4: to just send a kind word? Where can people find

4605
04:36:23,840 --> 04:36:25,480
Speaker 4: you on the internet?

4606
04:36:27,520 --> 04:36:30,919
Speaker 5: Another best way probably is on Instagram. We have an

4607
04:36:30,960 --> 04:36:37,600
Speaker 5: account Borderlands Relief Collective reach out to us and I

4608
04:36:37,759 --> 04:36:42,880
Speaker 5: do want to give a shout out to our sister organizations,

4609
04:36:43,440 --> 04:36:49,520
Speaker 5: border Kindness. Their water Drop program, led by Jacqueline and James,

4610
04:36:49,840 --> 04:36:55,320
Speaker 5: has been doing tremendous work for years. Border Angels, which

4611
04:36:55,400 --> 04:36:59,640
Speaker 5: is kind of the parent organization of water Drop volunteer

4612
04:36:59,720 --> 04:37:05,880
Speaker 5: group in California, are our comrades who do search and

4613
04:37:06,000 --> 04:37:10,840
Speaker 5: rescue as well as recovery of those who have died,

4614
04:37:11,480 --> 04:37:18,440
Speaker 5: including Armadillos and Aggi las Egos of the Desert. Very

4615
04:37:18,600 --> 04:37:22,399
Speaker 5: very proud to be in this community of people who

4616
04:37:22,480 --> 04:37:24,960
Speaker 5: are trying to help people in the borderlands.

4617
04:37:25,800 --> 04:37:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Thank you very much, guys, it's pretty great.

4618
04:37:31,640 --> 04:37:34,760
Speaker 1: Hey. We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4619
04:37:34,880 --> 04:37:36,760
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4620
04:37:37,360 --> 04:37:39,680
Speaker 9: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4621
04:37:39,960 --> 04:37:42,600
Speaker 9: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4622
04:37:42,640 --> 04:37:44,840
Speaker 9: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

4623
04:37:44,919 --> 04:37:48,280
Speaker 9: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4624
04:37:48,720 --> 04:37:50,840
Speaker 9: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

4625
04:37:50,919 --> 04:37:54,919
Speaker 9: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.