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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season one, Episode four

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Speaker 1: upter Daily like ice to production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we take a deep devan

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Speaker 1: do America share consciousness. It is Friday, July nine one.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jack O'Brien a K. Yeah, Uncle Joe UFOs,

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Speaker 1: come on wound, let's talk three point shooting. Oh Cuban

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Speaker 1: Ray sound attack. Don't do nothing about what supremacy, So

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Speaker 1: sit down, not too loud. I'm a check because I'm

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Speaker 1: cute and Jugie that is courtesy Christy am Gucci name

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Speaker 1: the boots Scooting Boogie a K that he said it

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Speaker 1: took him a whole week to write and uh unfortunately

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Speaker 1: uh not not really in my range. But what well

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Speaker 1: well done, sir h and I am thrilled to be

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Speaker 1: joined as always by my co host, Mr Miles Gray. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Miles Gray, but I will just say this, no, a

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Speaker 1: k A just all we need is boom kosaka boa

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Speaker 1: all right, And you know, I know that there are

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Speaker 1: other players on the England national team that don't play

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Speaker 1: for my beloved Arsenal. But for the ones that do,

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Speaker 1: that's you Bookayo, and whant I see you out there?

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Speaker 1: Your young man doing your thing. The Three Lions are

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Speaker 1: through to their first finals six Hey do you feel

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Speaker 1: the energy? I can't? Uh so shout out to all

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Speaker 1: the Three Lions supporters out there. I know it's very

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Speaker 1: happy times for you walk yeah, yeah, alright, well miles,

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Speaker 1: we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat

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Speaker 1: by an economist and an independent analyst who hosts the

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Speaker 1: Bubble Trouble podcast, which tells you some inconvenient truths about

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Speaker 1: how financial markets really work. Please welcome Richard Kramer and

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Speaker 1: Will Page. What's up? Welcome, Welcome, Hello, Hello, how are

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Speaker 1: how are y'all doing? We're what part of the what

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Speaker 1: part of the world are you coming to us from today?

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Speaker 1: We are coming to you from sunny London? Oh wow?

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Speaker 1: And Will? How about you? Where are you coming to

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Speaker 1: us from today? I'm speaking to you for one mile

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Speaker 1: from the Emberhood Stadium where your boys, Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: you can hear them. It's here when they score. And

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Speaker 1: last season we didn't hear most hearings. So not at all,

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Speaker 1: not at all. Or do you support a club in

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Speaker 1: the Premier League? Well, my true club is Heart at

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Speaker 1: Lothian beck Hoom in Scotland. We don't have a trophy

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Speaker 1: cabinet because we ain't want nothing but down here in London.

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Speaker 1: When you live in Kentish Town, you have to support Arsenal.

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Speaker 1: What's the law be a FAILI need to go with

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Speaker 1: Tottenham Hotspur? Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah you and I can

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Speaker 1: tell your your self respecting football supporter when you don't

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Speaker 1: tread into those waters over there, it's not worth any Richard.

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Speaker 1: What about you? Well, you know, as a nice Jewish boy,

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Speaker 1: I think I'd be obliged to support Tottenham, all right,

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Speaker 1: for sure? I get that. Are you? But do you?

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Speaker 1: But you're living in London, are you? How has the

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Speaker 1: football caught hold of you or you know, thirty years

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Speaker 1: on living in London? Uh? Not really? Uh, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the sport I grew up with. So what was the

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Speaker 1: sport you grew up with? Baseball? More? More hockey? Oh wow, hockey?

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Speaker 1: So you know you've you've got to Uh it's similar passions, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: less hooligan violence. Who's your team? And then NHL Pittsburgh Penguins. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the kid in all success at Mario Lemieu? I remember

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Speaker 1: those games? Didn't he play with you too? No? No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: Who is your who was the other Eastern European guy

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Speaker 1: who played for the Yeah, that always messed up. And

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Speaker 1: he had number sixty eight on this jersey, which was

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Speaker 1: a reference to the Prague Spring. So wow. I always,

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Speaker 1: as a kid, not being completely ignorant of Eastern European

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Speaker 1: phonetics and spelling, I was like, I think they missed

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Speaker 1: Bill Jersey. But I was ten and didn't know much

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Speaker 1: about anything. So there you happy. Will is Scottish, so

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Speaker 1: you the England football team is a touchy subject for him. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The game finished I think at quarter past eleven last night,

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Speaker 1: and by twenty past eleven, I bought my train ticket

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Speaker 1: to Scotland on Sunday evening, so I am out of

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Speaker 1: the country. Actually go ahead and win it. I just

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Speaker 1: too much for the Scots to handle. There's that close. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm all Italian for the next Yeah, I mean it,

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Speaker 1: trusts me. I was definitely rooting for the Scottish team

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Speaker 1: because of you know, Karen Tierney again another great Scottish player,

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Speaker 1: but also Gunner as well. So yeah, but shout out

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Speaker 1: to hearts, you know, like I can't imagine it's it's

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Speaker 1: easy to be to support to heart. Yeah, we had

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Speaker 1: an American play for US, a guy called Perry Kitchen.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember him, captain an American

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Speaker 1: team for US. Yeah. For some reason, he was incapable

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Speaker 1: of passing the ball forward. I don't think anyone shall

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Speaker 1: make it forward passed. He was like he confused the

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Speaker 1: rules of rugby with soccer. There's a lot of Remember

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Speaker 1: a lot of American players end up going to the

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Speaker 1: Scottish Premiership, you know, like like sort of the first place.

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Speaker 1: America's Americans who are too cowardly to go too far afield,

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Speaker 1: they like to dabble in the Scottish Premier League. I

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Speaker 1: noticed that it would be a big fish in a

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Speaker 1: small pond, right, right, exactly. That's why I landed on

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Speaker 1: Evan never left. Well, helped our national team. Well you

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Speaker 1: may have seen, you've seen Billy Gilmo will play. Billy

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Speaker 1: Gilmore's a Chelsea seventeen year old. He played for Scotland

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Speaker 1: against England. Yeah, best player, best player on the whole championships.

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Speaker 1: And he couldn't play again because he got COVID in

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Speaker 1: the second and third game. And that's when like Mason

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Speaker 1: Mount had to quarantine, right because he interacted with him.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing how those little things can affect so many

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Speaker 1: players at one tournament. So we got this joke back

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Speaker 1: woman in Scotland, which is Billy Gilmore. The only postive

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Speaker 1: results happened Scotland's European Championship. Postive result covid. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: get it. I love it. Well, it's appropriate. I I

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Speaker 1: here maybe one out of every ten words that everybody's

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Speaker 1: saying because my Internet connection is just completely broken. But

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Speaker 1: I would have had nothing to add to that conversation.

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Speaker 1: So that's works out. But congratulations on on the success

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Speaker 1: of the the three lines. All right, guys, we are

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Speaker 1: going to get to know you a little bit better

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Speaker 1: in a moment. First, we are going to tell our

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Speaker 1: listeners a few of the things that we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have a have a capitalism and overall capitalism

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Speaker 1: conversation with you guys, just markets, the rising popularity of socialism,

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Speaker 1: the whole robin hood conundrum, all that plenty more. But first, Richard,

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Speaker 1: will we like to ask our guests what is something

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Speaker 1: from your search history that's revealing that who you are?

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Speaker 1: I search a lot of discoing funct from the seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties for my time. But it tells you a

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Speaker 1: lot about who I am, like somebody who spent positivete

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Speaker 1: years at the front of music technology. I'm always going back. Well,

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Speaker 1: you and you worked at Spotify, correct said that's right

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Speaker 1: for the best part of a decade. It's Spotify, right,

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Speaker 1: and then prior to that, working with songwriters and publishers too,

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Speaker 1: So a balance of the rights holder and the rights user. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: got it, got it, and and and all you can

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Speaker 1: think about is seventies, eighties disco and funk. I like that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: as far as the music goes forward, I keep on

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Speaker 1: going back. That's That's always been the story with me.

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Speaker 1: Is there any Are there any bands now that you

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Speaker 1: feel like? What about like Jungle? Are they adjacent enough

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Speaker 1: to get your toe tapp it? It's a great one.

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Speaker 1: Jungles on my mix. That mix on mixed Cloud got

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Speaker 1: thirty eight thousand uniques, be Ericabadoo and l a Star

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Speaker 1: in terms of popularity, which is great. But I'll give

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Speaker 1: you one. This is a big one for your listeners,

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Speaker 1: and I have to spill it out to you because

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Speaker 1: it sounds weird. Salt I write this down s A

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Speaker 1: U L T Y. That was the hottest band coming

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Speaker 1: out of London, right and it's just nobody knows who

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Speaker 1: they are, nobody knows what they look like. They don't

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Speaker 1: do any press, they're completely incognito. Yeah, it's just bubbling

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Speaker 1: right now people. I love that track new record, Why

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Speaker 1: Why Why Why? That's uh yeah, I love that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We've actually written out on a couple of Salt tracks

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Speaker 1: because I look Spotify. They know how to serve me

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Speaker 1: the things I'm looking for and it gave me a

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Speaker 1: heavy dose of sodium or in this case, salt and saults.

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Speaker 1: The one for me is I'll go on recogen say

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Speaker 1: it's the most powerful music I've heard since discovering mess

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Speaker 1: of Attech and discovering Messive Attech is pretty much on

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Speaker 1: power with losing your virginity and it's that good. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I like that you had a better experience losing your

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Speaker 1: virginity than it sounds like Richard Well. I will say,

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Speaker 1: I'm absolutely right with Will on the seventies and eighties funk.

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Speaker 1: That's something we're completely in SynCon. But it's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a trick question for me because I don't have

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Speaker 1: any search history. Because I am I was one of

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Speaker 1: the early investors in a browser called Brave, which I'd

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Speaker 1: recommend everybody to be using. It is the the privacy

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Speaker 1: safe browser, but it basically make sure that you're not

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Speaker 1: tracked when you're using the web, and it keeps all

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Speaker 1: your history hidden away. And so given my memories fading

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Speaker 1: constantly for whatever reason, uh, you know, I can remember

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Speaker 1: what I searched for a few minutes ago, but not

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Speaker 1: after that, and I don't have to worry that that

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Speaker 1: search history is sitting there for for decades in somebody

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Speaker 1: else's servers. Sure, so you're immune from this question? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I just I guess every once in a

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Speaker 1: while you want to figure out, hey, what was that

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Speaker 1: that I found, but you realize it's probably really not

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Speaker 1: that important and just think of the next thing instead.

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Speaker 1: How do you stay organized? Because I'm one of these

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Speaker 1: people has like nine million browser tabs open because I

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Speaker 1: don't want to forget things. But the way you're talking,

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Speaker 1: you're like, I don't know, maybe I searched it that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm it's all good. You have like a tone

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Speaker 1: that you write this stuff. I also have. I also

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Speaker 1: have nine million browser tabs open at times. But but

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Speaker 1: then you just gotta go through. Then you gotta go

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Speaker 1: through and cull them. And the point is when you

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Speaker 1: close them, you want that history to be gone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what what is something you guys think is overrated? I

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Speaker 1: can give you something that's overrated and something that's underrated

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Speaker 1: in the world of sport. I think men's pupil is

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Speaker 1: overrated and women's puopile has underrated. In ten years time,

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Speaker 1: you're going to see a massive equalization, a massive convergence

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Speaker 1: if you want, of the two of the two games.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, when I saw seventy three thousand people turn

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Speaker 1: up for England women versus German women at Wembley Stadium,

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Speaker 1: it was a day of reckoning. So you know, you

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Speaker 1: can look at gender and sports seeing inequalities pretty much

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Speaker 1: everywhere you look. And I think the next ten years

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Speaker 1: you're going to see a very very sharp correction there.

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Speaker 1: So overrated for Arsenal getting three fifty thousand pounds a

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Speaker 1: week twice what Boris Johnson gets a year. Underrated women's

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Speaker 1: pupolers who are still pretty much amateur semi professional status,

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Speaker 1: watch that correct itself, especially there. The talent in the

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Speaker 1: league are phenomenal. I I watched like the champions leagu

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Speaker 1: Final with PSG. Like I've I, I really love it.

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Speaker 1: Especially the Arsenal Ladies team is stellar. Vivian Amtima is

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite players to watch. I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: Premier League teams head women's teams as well. Let's not

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Speaker 1: all of them do, but most many of them do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very cool, yea Richard? How about you? Yeah? I would

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Speaker 1: say that the one thing I I feel strongly is

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Speaker 1: completely overrated is pretty much anything to do with social media,

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Speaker 1: and specifically Twitter, which I consider the id of Western civilization.

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Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that you know, if if

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Speaker 1: I watch you guys walking down the street together and

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Speaker 1: amiably chatting, I wouldn't take any notice of it. But

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Speaker 1: if I watched you went walking down the street screaming

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Speaker 1: at each other, I'd stop and take note. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's the kind of behavior that a lot of

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Speaker 1: social media and genders and I it's just I think

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Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing that everybody feels the need

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Speaker 1: to show how clever they are put something out there,

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Speaker 1: but it has so little substance, and it's such a distraction,

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Speaker 1: and and that it's it's really wildly overrated. I think

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Speaker 1: there's lots of other ways to see distribution of of

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Speaker 1: interesting ideas and content news, And I think the thing

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Speaker 1: that's underrated is just that is sort of the contemplation

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Speaker 1: you get reading a book. Will just publish Tarzan Economics

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Speaker 1: giving him a shameless plug for that, but you know,

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Speaker 1: reading and engaging with content. I think podcasts are the

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Speaker 1: same thing. When you when you feel as if there's

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Speaker 1: there's a conversation that you're part of. I think that's

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Speaker 1: fascinating and and way underrated because you feel a connection.

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Speaker 1: And I think this sort of bite size, constant flow

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Speaker 1: of distraction in social media is is really damaging. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can build on that a couple of points. So

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Speaker 1: just one. I always reminds me when I hear Richard

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Speaker 1: talk about this of what Gratual Mark said, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, back then he said television is a fantastic

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Speaker 1: convention because every time I switched it on, it reminds

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Speaker 1: me to read a good book. And I just wonder

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Speaker 1: what he would say about Twitter and Facebook and the

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Speaker 1: like today. And I often look at a lot of

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Speaker 1: that social media's junk food and keeping with that food

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Speaker 1: theme of a colleague of ours, Noami Drew she said

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Speaker 1: to me once, what Twitter is this ability to You're

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Speaker 1: sitting at a big dining table, lots of guests, and

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Speaker 1: everyone's broken off into private conversations, and Twitter allows you

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Speaker 1: to eavesdrop into all those private conversations. I thought, somebody

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Speaker 1: doesn't tweet. It's a nice illustration of what it might

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Speaker 1: actually mean to us. But then you have to step

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Speaker 1: back and say, well, why would you want to eavesdrop

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Speaker 1: into all those private conversations. Why not have a deeper

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Speaker 1: one with something you can reward yourself from as opposed

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Speaker 1: to all these distractions. So yeah, it does come across

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Speaker 1: as junkard to me. So I'll little Richard's point there.

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Speaker 1: But but Myles, something that hopefully you're aware of is

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Speaker 1: that about a month ago, the entirety of UK sport,

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Speaker 1: every sport, rugby, cricket, tennis, football, all said complete ban

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Speaker 1: on social media for four days over a bank holiday

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Speaker 1: weekend because the original sin of Twitter is allowing people

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Speaker 1: to the hashtag raving racist or hashtag of you know,

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Speaker 1: I love abuse, uh, And it's just absolutely shocking these

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Speaker 1: and I say this in all seriousness. I think it

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Speaker 1: is the id of Western civilization. All the things that

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Speaker 1: we you know, in classic psychoanalysis or psychology, you'd never

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Speaker 1: say to people in polite company, all the terrible thoughts

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Speaker 1: you have in your head that you would never voice

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Speaker 1: directly to somebody. People save them all the time on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and and you you know, you have someone who's who's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, an icon and just deserving of the highest

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Speaker 1: of of respect, like Marcus Rashford in in the UK,

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Speaker 1: with all the stuff he's done with school lunches and

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Speaker 1: so forth, and he just gets the most unbelievable invective

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Speaker 1: of abuse and you don't know where it's coming from.

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Speaker 1: And of course no one is going to walk up

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Speaker 1: to him in the street and say these things, and

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Speaker 1: and and and and yet the entirety of sport, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just one sport. It wasn't just a few athletes,

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Speaker 1: it was everybody. He said, this has gonna stop. We

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Speaker 1: gotta say a break here, because we're not going to

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Speaker 1: contribute to this, this constant bubbling up of of of

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Speaker 1: an invitation to take potshots at us. Yeah, no, I totally, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's there's the amount of especially the racial abuse

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Speaker 1: Hurld that, like the athletes, is gob smacked. Is the

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Speaker 1: word I would use when I look at some of

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Speaker 1: the things that I read, and yeah, that even forced

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Speaker 1: one of my sporting idols, Tierryan reed to like deactivate

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Speaker 1: his accounts and he's saying, I'm not I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna, I'm not working with this at all. If

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Speaker 1: this is what people come here for and the companies

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Speaker 1: allow this to just run rampant, what is the point? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: our guests, even who are comedians, come on to say, like, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can't stand social media because there is

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Speaker 1: a there's a certain level where, especially for comedians, like

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Speaker 1: it's a place to get their jokes off. But on

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Speaker 1: the other side of that, it allows for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to just come at them and say all

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Speaker 1: kinds of ridiculous things that again, like you're saying, Richard,

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Speaker 1: you would never hear someone say that to your face.

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Speaker 1: And so we've had to like we have built up

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Speaker 1: these weird callouses emotionally to even engage in social media

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Speaker 1: that you know, I'm sure resonating many other ways. So

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Speaker 1: so I had a UK UK member of Parliament say

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Speaker 1: to me, you know, how can it be correct? That's

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Speaker 1: something that you would be arrested for telling someone in

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Speaker 1: the street to their face. You can say every day

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Speaker 1: on social media and will will tell you the the

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Speaker 1: the the language that's been hurled at Nicholas Sturgeon as

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Speaker 1: leader of Scotland, the Scottish National Party. You know she

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Speaker 1: she gets all sorts of rape threats or what have

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Speaker 1: you on a daily basis, and you know you you

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Speaker 1: can't callous yourself entirely to that stuff. It's just no

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Speaker 1: one can but on interpreting it, Like when when Richard

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Speaker 1: just mentioned it was what was inside people's heads all along,

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Speaker 1: but now it's pouring out. That reminds me of like

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Speaker 1: one there you normally of crime stats is a good

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Speaker 1: reminder for how do you interpret all this activity. So

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Speaker 1: it goes like this, if crime stats are up, what

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Speaker 1: do we know this has happened? You know, a crime

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Speaker 1: on the app or be we're getting better at catching criminals,

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Speaker 1: or see we've changed the definition of crime, or d

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Speaker 1: a combination of all of the above. But it doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily mean crime is on the up. It means now

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Speaker 1: we're seeing what people had inside their heads all along.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an important contextual point about trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of this madness as well. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: really good point. I mean, the the neutering effect that

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Speaker 1: banning Trump from social media had is something that we

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Speaker 1: talked about a lot on on this show. But like

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Speaker 1: that's truly that. That was a moment when I really

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Speaker 1: had to like sit back and be like, wow, they

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Speaker 1: we we haven't figured this out yet, and like that

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Speaker 1: what he did, the way he used social media, Like

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Speaker 1: hopefully I'm assuming years down the road like that won't

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Speaker 1: be possible in one way or another because it was

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Speaker 1: just so so damaging. Neither worried for Scotland. Is he's

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Speaker 1: kind of done his time in America. Is he're gonna

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Speaker 1: come back to Scotland and open more golf courses because

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Speaker 1: we got a bit of him for a few years.

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Speaker 1: He was making a messy years place. Yeah. Maybe, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's it seems like the Scots are are are

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Speaker 1: definitely more united and giving him a hard time than

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Speaker 1: the people of the US. But I don't know, he

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Speaker 1: who knows if if there's maybe a little Maga contingent

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Speaker 1: in Scotland, maybe he'll find it there. But it seems

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Speaker 1: like Florida is the place for him at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Florida's got better Weatherland, Scotland, Scholand. We have two seasons,

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Speaker 1: winter in June and that's your lot. So winter it

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Speaker 1: was amazing. Alright, guys, let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: we'll come back and talk about the news. And we're

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Speaker 1: back and just kind of up top. You know, we

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Speaker 1: we talk a lot on this show about socialism, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the ways that we feel like

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Speaker 1: capitalism has been damaging to our our current version of

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Speaker 1: of society. And I guess I just wanted to kind

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Speaker 1: of get you guys as people who spend a lot

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Speaker 1: of time thinking about markets and capitalism, Like, what are

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Speaker 1: you guys thoughts on just the rise of popularity of

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Speaker 1: socialism and in the modern world, and like how that

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Speaker 1: fits into the evolution of markets and capitalism in in

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Speaker 1: the Western world. I guess yeah, if I can take

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Speaker 1: a stab at unpacking this one, I'll draw an example

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Speaker 1: I flag in the first chapter of the Buktas and Economics,

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Speaker 1: which is when people, you know, sort of frame the

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Speaker 1: debate around capitalism and come them there's often like an

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Speaker 1: axiom underneath all list, which is a capitalism kind of

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Speaker 1: removes the safety in there, and that encourages an entrepreneurial spirit.

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Speaker 1: You win, you win big. If you lose, you lose hard.

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Speaker 1: But there's no complacency. It keeps you on your toes.

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Speaker 1: Where socialism that imposes a safety net. And if there's

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Speaker 1: a safety net, nobody takes any risks. And if nobody

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Speaker 1: takes any risk, nobody wins big and nobody loses. There's

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Speaker 1: a stereotype there of how economies, or societies perhaps a

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Speaker 1: better word, work kunder capitalist models and socialist models. And

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Speaker 1: what I drawn in the book Tars and Economics is

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Speaker 1: to look at the entrepreneurial spirit in the free market

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Speaker 1: capitalists country that is United States of America, and compare

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Speaker 1: that with the entrepreneurial spirit in the very left leaning

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Speaker 1: socialist economy of Sweden. And I don't see a drought

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Speaker 1: and entrepreneurial activity in Sweden. I see startups galore, Eyesettel, Spotify, Clara,

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Speaker 1: the list goes on and on. I see a country

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Speaker 1: that's getting rid of cash next year. You know, they

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Speaker 1: getting switching off the FM radio band next year. One

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Speaker 1: of the earliest adopting countries that you'll ever find. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure the stereotypes of what is capitalism of

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Speaker 1: what is socialism? Work down on their ground and I

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Speaker 1: just want to toss this back at you guys, which is, yes,

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Speaker 1: I get it. The US model of capitalism encourages with taking,

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Speaker 1: encourages reward, incentivizes the entrepreneurial spirit. But maybe, just maybe

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Speaker 1: the Swedish model, which has this really strong social safety net,

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Speaker 1: you know, which keeps people above the poverty line, provides

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Speaker 1: great maternity and paternity leave, amazing child support, and allows

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Speaker 1: you to take six months out of work to study,

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Speaker 1: allows you to take nine months out of work to

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Speaker 1: try and start up. Even maybe this model, because of

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Speaker 1: the social safety net, is so strong, it encourages even

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Speaker 1: more entrepreneurial activity. So it's just a way of thinking

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Speaker 1: about is it either or or? As the line a

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Speaker 1: little bit fuzzy between these two models, I'm fascinated with

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Speaker 1: how Sweden, with all of its safety net, with all

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Speaker 1: its socialistic beliefs, has produced such a great entrepreneurial success story.

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Speaker 1: But how am I gonna want to get out of

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Speaker 1: bed in the morning if I am not scared that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to starve to death? I just I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't see it, or if if I am afraid

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Speaker 1: that I can't give my kids health care. That's the

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Speaker 1: only thing. Get me up, No, I I I think

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Speaker 1: every you need to carry right, every right exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean there's so many things I could pick

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Speaker 1: up on there from what Will said. But I think

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Speaker 1: the way you guys are posing it as a complete

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Speaker 1: false economy, and the when I look back at where

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the States but left a long

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Speaker 1: time ago, more than half my life ago left left

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Speaker 1: there in the US isn't a capitalist economy in any

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Speaker 1: any sense. There's enormous social support for large companies and

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Speaker 1: there for the wrong things you're saying. I like that.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the sad things that's happened in

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Speaker 1: the past thirty or the years is this notion. And

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Speaker 1: it's been a very deliberate notion to undermine the idea

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Speaker 1: that there there is any value in collective enterprise or

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Speaker 1: the government or what have you. In this back to

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Speaker 1: the Reagan era of oh well, you know, the worst

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Speaker 1: words are that I'm here from the government, here to

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Speaker 1: help you. I mean, And Michael Lewis wrote a book

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Speaker 1: on this just recently, you know, which was basically a

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Speaker 1: love letter to them. To the folks who toil away

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Speaker 1: for relatively low salaries, lurking on food safety in the US,

425
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: working for the government. We're glad that we have these

426
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: people doing this in so many different endeavors. And and

427
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: we've kind of we've had this idolatry of in the individual,

428
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: which looks down on the collective enterprise. And I think

429
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: what Wills describing in a society like Sweden or Denmark

430
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: or or other countries which have a higher degree of

431
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: social cohesion is that everybody's willing to to get in

432
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: it together. And I think one, you know, one one

433
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: aspect to this that that I really, you know, take

434
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: a lesson from is my nephew did a PhD at

435
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: at the University of British Columbia in psychology and he

436
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: was studying happiness. And the thing about happiness is once

437
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: you hit a point where you have pretty much enough

438
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: of what you want, you get to something called satisficing.

439
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 1: And I'm sure Will can go on and on about this,

440
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: but having more doesn't make you happier, having more stuff,

441
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: having more money, and and it's it's almost a psychosis

442
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: that that has gripped people because they've been marketed this

443
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: this this myth of capitalism that we have this complete,

444
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: constant gladiatorial, you know, arena that we're fighting in every day,

445
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: that we don't find ways to have more collective enterprise

446
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: and appreciate the collective enterprise at the neighborhood level or

447
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: up to the nation state level. Yeah, I like to

448
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: wrap that one up. We're like saying some is better

449
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: than none. I'm not advocating communism here, but more it's

450
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: not necessarily better than some, and that needs to be

451
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: tattooed on our foreheads. When we're studying economics, were interpreting

452
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: economic analysis, which is it doesn't necessarily mean I need

453
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: that extra dollar as much as I needed that last dollar.

454
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: I think that's where it breaks down if I just

455
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: quickly come back to Sweden as well. Another observation is

456
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: when startups scaling Sweden, and forgive me for picking on

457
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: one of a handful of Scandinavian economies with similar models,

458
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: but in Sweden, when you see start up scale the

459
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: scale fast in their own country. It was Spotify launched

460
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: in late two thousand eight. By two thousand and ten,

461
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: a large chunk of Swedish population was using Spotify, and

462
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: America had never even heard of streaming, So it's scales

463
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 1: first night. I just wonder whether you've got a social

464
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: safety net and a greater deal of equality in your economy.

465
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: If one person is a good idea, it can split

466
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: all people a lot faster than in a strictly capitalist

467
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: economy with a bigger gap between rich and poor, where

468
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: you might have one good idea, but it can reach

469
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 1: to old because a lot of people are priced out

470
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: of the bargain. So it's worth just, you know, playing

471
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: this social safety net, not just on the creative side,

472
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: but also on the consumer side. Old people can win

473
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: with ideas scale sure, And I'm curious to think, like

474
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: just with this, you know, as you're saying, Richard, like

475
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: we we definitely have social safety nets for these large corporations,

476
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: and that there's like this the emphasis is to always

477
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: it seems like, if just speaking very narrowly about the

478
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: United States, that if there is some kind of crisis

479
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: that an industry is facing, the first thing is to

480
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: make sure that the business owners themselves are the most

481
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: sort of protected, while there's really not much consideration that

482
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: goes down towards the workers who are actually keeping the

483
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: businesses alive. Is there any way too, because I think

484
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: what you're saying, like, you know, there's this idea of

485
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: more and more and more that it's almost seems like unending.

486
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: That can it? Can you know, people who are dealing with,

487
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, in big supporters of free market capitalism arrive

488
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: at point to say, is there a limit? Because at

489
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: a certain point, if we're too obsessed with growth and

490
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: we look at just the huge gap between incomes from

491
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: the people in the C suite middle management down to

492
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: just you know, maybe hourly workers for a given company,

493
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: how that can equalize in some level or is that

494
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: just completely runs a foul of how maybe these business

495
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: owners think? Well? And I think you raise a key point,

496
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: which is how people understand the world. And certainly the

497
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: level of concentration in the media market in the US

498
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: is fairly extreme, and while it's fragment or splintered with

499
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: the Internet in the past few years, it's still largely

500
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: controlled by a handful of companies who are going to

501
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: give a very certain message. Now, I'll take another example

502
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: of a different country called Japan. In Japan, they realized

503
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: a long time ago that roughly, uh, well, they have

504
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: no oil, they have relatively few natural resources. It's an island,

505
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: and they I leave deliberately engineered a zero growth economy

506
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: with the idea and mind of sustainability, and they deliberately

507
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: leave something like the arable land in Japan as forests

508
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: and leave it fallow. And they have people live in

509
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: mega cities. The Tokyosaka Nagoya Corridor is sixty million plus people.

510
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: It's half the population of the country. But they realized

511
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: if they just cut down every tree, they end up

512
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: like Easter Island, which you know, we know that the

513
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: people there. We believe that the people they are effectively

514
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: extincted themselves because they overuse their natural resources. And there's

515
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with accepting no growth if when you look

516
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: at all sorts of surveys, generally Japanese people are incredibly

517
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: happy on a global scale. They don't have the tremendous

518
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: inequality between the rich and the poor. They've long ago

519
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: had debates about what the appropriate multiple of the lowest

520
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 1: paid worker the business should be paid versus the boss.

521
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: And they have a very rigid, very collective oriented culture.

522
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: Now it's very unique. It's not something you could extrapolate,

523
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: but the message there for a very long period of

524
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: time was to preserve resources, not to overconsume, and and

525
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: everybody bought into the program. And it's not some hippie,

526
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: dippy utopian community. That's the country of a d twenty

527
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: million people in one of the top five or ten

528
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: economies in the world. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm half Japanese.

529
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: And you know, philosophically, there's very much an idea of

530
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: if you can do something, do it well, and have

531
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: a business that can do it for as long as possible.

532
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: That's why Japan has the highest concentrations of businesses that

533
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: have been around for over a hundred years with this

534
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: sort of same philosophy of we don't need to open

535
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: multiple franchises or things like that. We do this one thing,

536
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: we do it well, the business is consistent, and that's

537
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: what we're interested in, you know, culturally. But just to

538
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: kind of come back to the US, I'm curious, you know,

539
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: because now you've been living in the UK and things,

540
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you have a very broad perspective on

541
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: everything that's going on. Do you think that you that

542
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: at a certain point the stakeholders of like the large

543
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: corporations in the United States could arrive at a realization

544
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: that eventually says does this Is this actually sustainable in

545
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: the long term in terms of like if we keep

546
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: hollowing out the middle class and end up with a

547
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: large chunk of people who are completely impoverished and don't

548
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: have access to things like the most basic things, is

549
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: it at at any level? Do you think people in

550
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: the C suites there think there's a responsibility or that's

551
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: just a that's like a fantasy world that doesn't exist.

552
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: I would hope that they do. But then it's the

553
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: seriousness of the commitment. And you see this, every single

554
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: fortune company will make the most charming, glowing promises about sustainability,

555
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: just as last year they made incredibly sincere air promises

556
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: about racial justice. But then the proof is in the pudding.

557
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: And and it's always easier to request that somebody else

558
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 1: in the organization takes hold of that or as long

559
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: as it doesn't need into my com package. You know

560
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: who who suffers for that or who is relatively disadvantaged

561
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: for that? I won't say suffering. And look at the

562
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: debate in the US over over the tax structure, and

563
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think tax deductibility of interest in one

564
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: respect has been a tremendous incentive to people to take risk,

565
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: but for a lot of other people it has been

566
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: an invitation to exercise enormous inequality and irresponsibility. And a

567
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: college friend of mine, Jesse Eisinger, just published some phenomenal

568
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: work in pro Publica which I'd recommend everybody to look at,

569
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: covering the tax contributions, if you would want to call them,

570
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: that the tax income from the fifteen wealthiest Americans. So so,

571
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: now Jesse's point, which I think is very valid, is

572
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: these people did not do anything illegal. They We're not

573
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: saying that they broke the law. But is this the

574
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: kind of society we want where if you have a

575
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of money, you have all of these legal means

576
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: to ensure that you literally never pay tax, and if

577
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of money and you can't

578
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: hire tax consultants or trust fund trustees and so forth,

579
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: you're stuck with everyone else, you know, paying paying the

580
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: taxes as uh as you expect. And the question is

581
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: what sort of society do we want to have? And

582
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: then the question following that would be who gets to

583
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: decide that? And I think I'm sure Will has a

584
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: lot to add on this topic, but we Diday we're

585
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: looking at doing this as a topic for bubble trouble

586
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: because it it raises the question of are you allowing

587
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: people to accrue two big pots of wealth relative to

588
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: everyone else? And therefore your your in a in a

589
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: biological sense, you're narrowing the gene pool of what's likely

590
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: to happen with all that capital slashing in the system. Yeah. Yeah,

591
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: the way if I can drop one transatlantic observation, if

592
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: you want about this, it rolls up to leadership as well.

593
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: There was an election campaign where Romney went against Barack Obama.

594
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: I believe I can't place a date on it, and

595
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: Romney said on record he said I paid twelve percent

596
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: tax last year and not a penny more. And people cheered.

597
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: Now they cheered if the somebody wanting for prime minister

598
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: or president and the European economy was to say that

599
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: they would be builted off the campaign ticket. It was

600
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: fascinating to see how he was celebrating how little text

601
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: he paid. There's a backstory to that, which is on

602
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: that campaign he actually wanted to get rid of capital

603
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: gains tax. As somebody said to him, well, what would

604
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: the poor people say to that? He said, or they

605
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: don't go anyway. That's a potential president of the United

606
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: States talking like that on the get to his proposed electorate.

607
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: And it's just really interesting to like zoon in on

608
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: that as a simple observation to say, if you said

609
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: that in Sweden, if you said that here to the UK,

610
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: you'd be off the campaign. On the campaign for Americans

611
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 1: you celebrated. For we us, we criticize it. What. Yeah,

612
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: I think that goes hand in hand with like, you know,

613
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: leadership and the concentration of people who are able to

614
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: access things like the media and even have you know,

615
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: deploy their lobbyists to make sure their interests are protected legislatively.

616
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: We have a very conflicted system. Plus, I think on

617
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: top of that, Americans are probably the most propagandized people

618
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 1: on the planet. When it comes to like you're saying,

619
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: every other person would be like, get the funk off

620
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: this stage. With that, we're fucking dying And people are like, yeah, man,

621
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: don't pay your taxes. Because I've been I've created this

622
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: like weird class false class solidarity with billionaires because I'm

623
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: holding out for this one day chance that i could

624
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: be a millionaire and I don't want to spoil that

625
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: moment if it arrives by you know, backing progressive tax policies.

626
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: And so yeah, like we're in a very unique situation

627
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: where at every level, you know, as you say, with leadership,

628
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: there's a revolving door from business to government back to

629
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: business again. Um, And even my time lobbying, I've seen

630
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: how all of the moneyed interests work to specifically undercut

631
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: legislation or keep people out of office. Because it's at

632
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like we've allowed a lot

633
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: of people the tools to meddle and if you have

634
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: the resources, you can and that you know, unfortunately reverberates

635
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: down the entire uh, you know, down to the bottom,

636
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: from the top to the bottom. And yeah, I think

637
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: that's what puts us in a terribly unique situation. One

638
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: thing that brings me out in a rash is general consensus.

639
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: And I feel a little all in agreement here. So

640
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: I got to challenge the group's take and just through

641
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: an observation about America to show where you might see collectivism.

642
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: Under collectivism is but where do you draw the boundaries?

643
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: You know, we all have our little niches, a little

644
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: echo chambers. Maybe we find collectors them there. So let

645
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: me pivot from American football to the American fiscal transfer system.

646
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Hold us in your head for a minute. So in

647
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: American football, you've got the college draft, which essentially says,

648
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: the worst team in one season period one gets the

649
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: best draft picks to hopefully improve their performance in the

650
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: next season period two. What a great model of socialism

651
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: that you have in sport. And I remember sitting with

652
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: the Freakonomics, said Steve Levett from fre Economics, saying, we

653
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: need to build this for the teacher system. So the

654
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: best graduates from teacher training colleges are sent to the

655
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: worst school. So you have this self correcting model. You

656
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: could learn a lot from American football, not European American football.

657
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: But then you look at the fiscal transfer system in America,

658
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: which essentially says, in the eighties of New Yorker is

659
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: booming and California's bankrupt, I'm going to transfer of fiscal

660
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: surplus from New York to out to accommodate the fiscal

661
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: deficit in California. That's an interesting model of collectors them

662
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: which holds United States of America United holds it together.

663
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: My point being, we have the European currency here, But

664
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: you don't have fiscal transfers. You wouldn't have Germany transferring

665
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: its well to the Spanish economy. Oh you absolutely, but

666
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: you absolutely do well, you absolutely, Then you don't you

667
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: have Germany buying bonds and basically owning half of Europe.

668
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: You don't have transfers. Well, there's a difference. Yeah, I

669
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: can save your ass or I can buy your ass,

670
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: which ones you want to pick? The funding of the

671
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: EU budget for poor countries comes from the wealthier countries, right,

672
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: And just in the same way, you have states here

673
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: that are helping, you know, fill these sort of gaps

674
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: in states that aren't able to sustain their own you know,

675
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: programs within the state like Kentucky for example, they rely

676
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: on federal subsidies that states like where I'm from, California,

677
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: pay into. But I think where the disconnect happens is

678
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: despite all of that money moving around the the actual

679
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: end result for the constituents, for the people who are

680
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: just living those are not really felt like. There's a

681
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: certain point where it fails to you know, famously trickled

682
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: down to those people and they can get caught up.

683
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: And again, I think this is why we have a

684
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: lot of failures of leadership from the state level to

685
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 1: the municipal and a lot of rigid thinking on how

686
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: people should be supported and things like that. So I think,

687
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: but if you go back to a very simple phrase

688
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: that comes from Thomas Jefferson, which is representative democracy, I

689
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: think there's a it's a travesty in the UK the

690
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: first past the post system because it ensures that one

691
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: one group that hast can constantly be in power over

692
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: two other groups that are split between each And in

693
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: the US you have every single senator being a millionaire,

694
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: And how is that somehow representative of democracy? And if

695
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: you would gear some algorithmic model for sampling on a

696
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: representative basis a hundred plus four thirty five people that

697
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: would represent the totality of America, you certainly wouldn't come

698
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: up with a group that looks like the Senate, the

699
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: Senate or or or have a House of Parliament. And

700
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: you know that the Jeffersonian ideal was that every citizen

701
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: would And of course at that time he was excluding

702
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 1: a lot of people that we would you know, don't

703
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: include women or blacks or what have you. But you

704
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: know that every person that he saw as a citizen

705
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: would at least have the capacity the propensity to serve,

706
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 1: and we it was all our duty to serve. And

707
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: now we have representative democracy that represents really quite ideally

708
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: the people who they are, and it doesn't really represent

709
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: the wider populace or uh and and equally it doesn't

710
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: represent because it's all on such a very short cycle

711
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: of of thought, it doesn't encourage countries to have And

712
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: this is what they do have in Japan, and they

713
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: don't really seem to have in America a thirty to

714
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: fifty year plan. Where do you want the society to

715
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: be in thirty years away? And I think right now

716
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: they're thinking is where do we want people America to

717
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: be in ten years? Not talking about slavery or critical

718
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: race theory that seems to be a lot of like

719
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: sort of political capital being spent on really not talking

720
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: about history and things like that, rather than do we

721
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: want to actually help create some form of upward mobility

722
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: for many people. Yeah, things like infrastructure take decades to build,

723
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: and you need a thirty year plan to say what

724
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: is gonna what what are things going to look like?

725
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: And how do we work backwards instead of fighting over

726
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: what's going to happen next week or next month or tomorrow,

727
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: and social media. Going back to something you said, Richard,

728
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: the the idolatry of the individual. So that's why I

729
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: bring up the increasing popularity of social wism in America

730
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: because I it it's down to like our obsession with

731
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: individualism and this idea that you make it on your

732
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: own without without any help or social safety nets like

733
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: the the thing that is causing those people to cheer

734
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: for Romney, it's it's so thoroughly written into the DNA,

735
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: like down to a cellular level of of like the

736
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: individuals in America that I'm just I'm very encouraged that

737
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: we that there's a generational change happening where it seems

738
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: like for the first time in a long time that

739
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: is kind of being unwritten like decoded out of our

740
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: out of our like kind of societal d NA like

741
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: that we're growing more and more open to it. But

742
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: it seems like the the mit Romney generation, the baby

743
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: Boomers and stuff are just so oh thoroughly um bought

744
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: into to that idea of of bootstrapping, like to the

745
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: point that when a billionaire releases their book, they rewrite

746
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: their story so that they never got any help from anyone.

747
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: And it's a lie that has been like part of

748
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: America's DNA for so long that I think we were

749
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: going to need to overcome to to fix really any

750
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: of the things that we're talking about, because I think

751
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: a lot of the younger people are seeing, you know,

752
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: that we're dealing with the the uh, the effects of

753
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, this kind of reckless way that corporations operate

754
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: in the United States of just hoarding a lot of

755
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: wealth not considering what happens to the like the entirety

756
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: of the nation. And so you have a lot of

757
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: people growing up looking at their situation and it's completely

758
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: different than their parents, like in the eighties, like people

759
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: just could be like, yeah, man, you can get a

760
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: house and for for nothing and just do what you

761
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: gotta do, start families. Just it's it's all there right

762
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: there for you for most people. And a lot of

763
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: people like myself graduating in college in two thousand seven

764
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: and looking at the recession and everything's going on, like, oh,

765
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: this this is a completely different game. I don't have

766
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: the same access to the kinds of employment that would

767
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: immediately put me in the middle class, immediately put me

768
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: in a place to be able to obtain real estate

769
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: or you know, that's a traditional form of wealth accumulation

770
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: for people in the United States, that that game is like, Oh,

771
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: it's like I feel like I pulled up to a

772
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: different party and it's still over. And I think a

773
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: lot of people, especially millennials, have found themselves singing like, well,

774
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: how do now we gotta ask ourselves, how do how

775
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: do we get here? And how do we end up

776
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,479
Speaker 1: in a place where we're not worried about the most

777
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: minute things that we didn't think we had to worry

778
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: about his kids, which is like, am I covered medically

779
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: or do I do I know that if there is

780
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: a pandemic happening that I won't be evicted from my

781
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: home because everything was shut down and I have no

782
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: means of of of actually generating in the income. Yeah,

783
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: all right, let's take a quick break and we'll come

784
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: back and continue this conversation. And we're back and yeah, well,

785
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: during the break, I mean, this is this is gonna

786
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: be sort of an abnormal episode of t DZ where

787
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: we don't really get into the stories. But this conversation

788
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: is just super interesting and we want to continue to

789
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: have it because it is a theme and and sort

790
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: of the subject that is written through basically every every

791
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: story that we cover on the daily Zo Guist. But

792
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: during the break, you guys were talking about Thomas Pacquetti

793
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: as as somebody who has sort of some interesting ideas.

794
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: He wrote Capital in the twenty one Century, which was

795
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: kind of a massive successful book that I think came

796
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. A lot of people were were surprised

797
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: by how successful it was, and I don't know as

798
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: a critique of of a lot of the things that

799
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about as kind of poisoning or

800
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: error various societies. I'll mention one thing that I really

801
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: took from Pekeetti, and then I'll turn it over to

802
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: Will to talk about quantitative easing, which is, you know,

803
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: just such a sexy topic he can't stay away from it. Um.

804
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the point of Thomas Pachetti was

805
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: really the way in which if you start with some money,

806
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: it's easier to have much more money, and that that

807
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: money has been accumulating in the form of bank accounts

808
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: are sitting in cash, which doesn't circulate in the economy.

809
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: When money sits in the bank, it's not doing anything.

810
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: And I think one of Pecquetti's key points was there

811
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: have to be greater incentives to circulate that money in

812
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: the economy. And look, one of the things that really

813
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: breaks my heart in London but I hate to see

814
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: is in the past twenty years, certainly under Boris Johnson

815
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: as mayor, you've allowed all these developers to build these

816
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: super luxury flats and they're all bought by by offshore buyers.

817
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: Whether it's from from Asia or from the Middle East,

818
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: or or Russia or whatever. It's all it's a subtle

819
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: form of money laundering. We can discuss the debate that.

820
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: But the problem I have with those flats is they're

821
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: all empty. So you go by one of these luxury

822
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: developments that's in the middle of London in my neighborhood,

823
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: beautiful spot, and you can see up ten stories and

824
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: there's no lights on, and that money is not circulating,

825
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: that that resource is not circulating in the economy. That

826
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: would be a wonderful place to have nurses live or

827
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: teachers live. One of these developments is right across from

828
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: primary school that my daughter attended, you know, and but

829
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: the teachers could never afford to live in these luxury flats.

830
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 1: And my idea for that would be you should whack

831
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: a great big occupancy tax on empty flats, and they

832
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: shouldn't just be accumulated as as an asset for offshore

833
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: buyers that doesn't contribute to the local economy because when

834
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: no one's living there, they're not going to the awful license,

835
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: they're not going to the local restaurant, they're not sending

836
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: their kids to the primary school. They're just leaving the

837
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: flats empty because they think they're gonna be worth more

838
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: than five years. And you need something that gets those

839
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: flats circulating in the economy that makes it so painful

840
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: to sit on that asset that it's worth letting it

841
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: out to somebody and actually having someone that lives there

842
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: as a benefit to society instead of as a fallow

843
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: asset sitting in the middle of town. Well, so, I mean,

844
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: I like, how rich is using networks circulating Where does

845
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 1: all this money sit? You know, who's it percolating through

846
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: towards You feel the impact of that cash? Is it

847
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: the few or the many? And there's a way that

848
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: you can go from Paketti to a real life example,

849
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: which is if you look at the response to the

850
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: financial crisis two thousand eight onwards, and you're still seeing

851
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: this today. You're still seeing central banks around the world,

852
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: especially in the Western world, deploy quantitive easing as a

853
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,879
Speaker 1: way of holding up the financial set of spellance sheet.

854
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: There's two points I want to make here. I want

855
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: to dive into the technical details of quantity easy, but

856
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: I want to make a macro point about where is

857
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: it and a micro point about what impact is it having.

858
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: So at the higher level, if you think about where

859
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: is it, if you look at the UK economy, and

860
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the same numbers check out for the US,

861
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: around about a third of the stock of debt this

862
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: country has we owe to ourselves through quantiti feasing. It's

863
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: essentially an IOU between the central bank and the treasury function.

864
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: Last time I checked a broadly similar figure applied to

865
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: the United States. So you think about how countries set

866
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: all these If they have a towering stock of debt,

867
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: they might opt for austerity to reduce the stock of

868
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: that debt. Well, is there not a case for a

869
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: debt you believe when you owe a third of that

870
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: debt to yourselves? This is not pure modern monetary theory.

871
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: Here It's just a different way of thinking about what

872
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: is money. If that huge towering stock of debt that's

873
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: clouding over my fiscal policies is making me more risk

874
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: averse about you know, your building a social safety in there.

875
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 1: If a third of that day I owe to myself,

876
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: well why do I just wipe it off and allow

877
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 1: more physical stimulus into the economy, allow more spending. Not

878
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: such a radical proposal, moving trips a bit more of

879
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 1: a radical proposal. One that have always argued ever since

880
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: I got my head around quantity of easing is if

881
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: you're going to have quantity of using increasing the economy

882
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: by ex percent, then how about this, you increase the

883
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: minimum wage by why percent to pull the money through.

884
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: Let's go back to what Richard Kramer was saying about

885
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 1: circulating just money washing around and nobody's feeling the benefit.

886
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: Not a bad example is quantu feasing. I'm going to

887
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: increase quantity of easing because the banks are under stress. Great,

888
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: so let's balance up their back up their balance sheets.

889
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: All that's happening is you're getting asset price bubbles. If

890
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: you increase the minimum wage by a similar degree, it

891
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: would help pull money through from wall street to mainstream.

892
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: As you Americans like to say, I again not that

893
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: radical or proposal given the alternative to what's happened. We

894
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: have huge herring stocks of debt, which be we oh

895
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: much to ourselves. And see, all I've done through policy

896
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: is create asset price bubbles which benefit the very few

897
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: as supposed to having any impact whatsoever on the many.

898
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: And it's I don't want to sound like a radical here,

899
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 1: that's that's the facts, right, And I mean, I think

900
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people think, is that it's

901
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: just inflating asset prices that just benefit just enriching the wealthier.

902
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: I think. But for people who want to look at

903
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: that with rose tinted glasses, I'll say, well, then maybe

904
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: it'll trickle down to everyone else because of that. And

905
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, it's true that this is where this

906
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: is where it becomes interesting because again, raising the minimum

907
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: wage right is something that's massively popular with people in

908
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: the United States. But then you have like places like

909
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: bodies like the Chamber of Commerce that are lobbying actively

910
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: senators that they're calling out and giving Bipartisanship awards for

911
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: their part in being a no vote in increasing like

912
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: minimum wage and things like that, and and it's it

913
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 1: becomes very cynical because you're at the end of the day,

914
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: we're thinking what what we already look at what it

915
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,479
Speaker 1: costs to live in a given city and most most

916
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: places are unaffordable with one job or the subsubsistence wages

917
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: a lot of people are paid. So you know, at

918
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: what point that's again, this is why we find ourselves

919
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: in this terrible, terrible place where I think it's whether

920
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: it's you know, radical collective action, which I think is

921
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: what it's going to take for people to see what

922
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: the potential is for you know, uh, some kind of

923
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: equitable share in this country. But on the other side

924
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: of it, yeah, a lot of people who are just

925
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: so exhausted by merely going through the grind of surviving

926
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: in America, not really ever able to take a moment

927
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: because everyone has to work. And because of the one

928
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: moment we had in the pandemic where things stopped for

929
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: a second, it really did give people, you know, the

930
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: opportunity to take a breath and look at where their

931
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: energy is going, what they're receiving in turn for their labor,

932
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: and how that squares with what the realities are they're

933
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: given city. Yeah, and again I know he's like, it

934
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: seems radical to do this, but I think it's because

935
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: we have there there's these these patterns or momentum that

936
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: we have with certain monetary policies that suddenly any tweak

937
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: to that is considered just like, oh my goodness, like

938
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: this is that's I can't fathom what that would mean, um,

939
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: and what that would mean to you know what I'm

940
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: going to say on an earnings call if I had

941
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: to start paying hourly people more, and then analysts might

942
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: be asking interesting questions about what that means for our business.

943
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: But there is there is an open question about why

944
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: companies need to have a certain level of profitability so

945
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: once they have, I mean, if you think of a

946
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: traditional and this is where the current markets are really

947
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: unmoored from history and from the traditional way of thinking

948
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: about investment. And I was explaining this to Will on

949
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: a run we were taking. I've been training Will how

950
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: to run for the last year. Slowly slowly. Yeah, he

951
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: goes very slowly. My training is going very slowly for him.

952
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: He goes much more slowly than I do. But you know,

953
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: the the original idea of getting together as a as

954
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: a stock company, was that the company itself would be

955
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: able to have some sort of collective action that would

956
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: produce profits and pay back each of those stockholders a

957
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: dividend a portion of the profits over time. And now

958
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: you have to ask the questions since many companies don't

959
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: pay dividends or don't plan to, but they they seek

960
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: to generate huge profits, but they sit on them. And

961
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: again back to Thomas Pachetti, how can it be a

962
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: good thing when you have some of the largest companies

963
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 1: in the US sitting on cash piles of fifty or

964
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: a hundred billion dollars. That money is simply not circulating

965
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: in the system, and and it just doesn't you know,

966
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: these huge key relations of wealth. Uh, while they're certainly

967
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: justified by the law, you have to ask the fundamental questions,

968
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: like my friend Jesse Isisinger is asking about the tax policy.

969
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 1: Is is this the best outcome? Is this what suits

970
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: the long term interests of society best? To allow these

971
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 1: huge accumulations of wealth and in these pockets where they don't,

972
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 1: they aren't being used to help others, right, And I'd

973
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: imagine the two of you are in orbit of people

974
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: that have the ability to you know, who are in

975
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: a c suite, who run companies, who are the people

976
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: that would make those decisions. Do you think of those

977
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: kinds of proposals for people of that wealth class, of

978
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: just that astronomical bracket. Could they come around to that

979
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: idea to say, yeah, you know what, I do have

980
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: entirely too much? Because it seems right now there's a

981
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: very it seems like a minority of the hyper wealthy

982
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 1: are willing to sort of outwardly say like, there's more

983
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 1: that we can be giving back what we do have,

984
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: more than we'll need. But it also seems like on

985
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: some level, you do need the buying of these these

986
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: billionaires on some level for this to happen, because on

987
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: the other side of it, it'll be like how ex

988
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: On Mobile has a playbook to say like, oh, yeah,

989
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: we're all for a carbon tax, while aggressively like lobbying

990
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: as much as they can to take stuff out of

991
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: infrastructure bills, but outwardly have this persona of like, oh,

992
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: we're absolutely all about this. It seems like there's again

993
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: from your firsthand experience, do you think that is a

994
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: sellable proposition to someone who is at the helm of

995
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, a multi billion dollar company if I can

996
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: kick it in with just an outside of looking in

997
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: a non American looking at America and somebody who's absolutely

998
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: fascinated America, an American political junkie. But one thing that

999
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 1: fascinates me with the American approach is the belief in

1000
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: the philanthropy model. So if you've made a ton of money,

1001
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: is your you need to give some of it away?

1002
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: That would be seemed as generous. But there's a real

1003
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: issue I have of that, and I think a lot

1004
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: of people in Britain have for the way that philanthropy

1005
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: works in America, which is you may think that you

1006
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: want a beautiful modern art gallery in your hometown, but

1007
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: the government might think I'd rather pay the teachers a

1008
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: livable wage, and who should have the choice? And that

1009
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: goes to right to the heart of what we're discussing here,

1010
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: which is, hey, I made that business grow, I made

1011
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,959
Speaker 1: that buck, and I'll decide what I'm going to spend

1012
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: on that. I want to butterfly farm, the biggest butterfly

1013
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: farm backline on Earth right here. Fine, but how do

1014
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: you paid your Taxis that money could have been allocated differently,

1015
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: maybe back to Rich's point about having money washed up

1016
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: in one cult sec how did you get that out

1017
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: to filter down different different streets and different But but

1018
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: I'm saying about that idea. Right, Let's say you go

1019
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: up to Basos or anyone who is it is a

1020
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: great example of someone who like doesn't pay taxes so

1021
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: that he can give all his money away supposedly, right,

1022
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: But how would a conversation go. Let's say they're all

1023
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: getting together or it sound because based on how the

1024
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: lobbyists for their respective companies move, there's no interest to

1025
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: for them to pay those taxes. So there's like this

1026
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 1: active fight where everyone has the same refrain of like, well,

1027
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm not breaking any laws, and I'll acknowledge maybe very

1028
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: narrowly that there's this level of inequality because of the

1029
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: tax code here, but also like I'm not really interested

1030
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: in paying that. Like let's be real, I don't know

1031
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: like if if that is going to be accepted, because

1032
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: you see the resistance that comes out as it plays

1033
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: out through lobbying, because that's how you know, that's how

1034
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: these corporate interests are able to maneuver and sort of

1035
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: have these like double speak moments out loud, so I'll

1036
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: give you my perspective on this, which is, you know,

1037
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: the language of business, which is probably not talked very

1038
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: much on your podcast, but we we live. I live

1039
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: day in and day out, is you know our companies.

1040
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: If you're assessing companies, you're looking at them and saying,

1041
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: are they good capital allocators? If they have a pool

1042
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: of capital that's handed to them. Let's say they raise

1043
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of money in an I p O. Are

1044
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: they good at allocating that capital such that they'll generate

1045
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: a return? You know, if you'd think fair enough, if

1046
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: you gave your your body a hundred bucks to start

1047
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: a lemonade stand, you'd like to think he didn't go

1048
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: down to the pub and drink away eighty of it

1049
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: and then forget to buy lemons. And he's claiming that

1050
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: he's only got twenty bucks left and he doesn't have

1051
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: enough to buy cups, ice and lemons to start his

1052
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: lemonade stand. So you want to know that people are

1053
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: individually in companies good capital allocators. The problem is that

1054
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: individual companies themselves aren't going to allocate capital to do

1055
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: things like build schools, roads, bridges, all of the public

1056
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: goods that will can go on for hours about that

1057
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: we need in society. And one of the things that

1058
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: get scirted over by those who say, yeah, I'm gonna

1059
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: make a lot of money not pay tax and then

1060
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: choose to give it away, is well, who built the

1061
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: roads that drive to your mansion, who maintains the the environment,

1062
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: who you know, They're all these externalities that are looked after,

1063
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: and you choose, you choose to opt out from supporting them.

1064
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: And that's in my view, it's it's somewhat irresponsible. It's

1065
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: you know, acting, and if everybody is acting in their

1066
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: own individual self interest, there will be no society, there

1067
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: will be no collective self interests. We won't have infrastructure

1068
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: or or healthcare. And and I can tell you I've

1069
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: been delighted to to live in the UK, and you know,

1070
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: I've had my children born in the National Health Service

1071
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: and we pay I pay a higher rate of tax

1072
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: than I would in the States. But we have all

1073
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: of our healthcare provided by fantastic National Health Service that

1074
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, which unfortunately doesn't pay its employees nearly as

1075
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: much as they really deserve to be paid. Yeah, it

1076
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: maybe wrapped that one up by saying, look at the

1077
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 1: state of San Francisco and then look at the state

1078
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: of San Francisco airports a good example of the gaps

1079
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: that exists between the public service and the private sector. Well,

1080
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 1: then I guess from your perspective, like, how could do

1081
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: you like because you're all very well aware of the

1082
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: inequality and able to like articulate what is what the

1083
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 1: sort of dysfunction is in the pathology of certain parties involved,

1084
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: How would you you know, knowing the language of people

1085
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: who are maybe focused more on like the business of

1086
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: side of everything, what is what is the conversation that

1087
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: can be had Because I think on one level, people like, well,

1088
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: radically X, Y and Z has happened and he's happened yesterday.

1089
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 1: Whenever those sort of legislative policies are introduced, it fizzles

1090
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: out immediately. Is there any way that those people could

1091
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: actually find or or how could you solve like does

1092
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: it you are you saying that you're advocating for the

1093
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: government to figure out to say like, no, this is

1094
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: not how we're doing it. This is all how it

1095
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: has to be. Or do you think that people deserve

1096
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: the agency to be empathetic because it seems like when

1097
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: you give people the the agency to do that. They're

1098
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: absolutely not interested in helping anyone except for themselves. So

1099
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: what is the how do we how do you solve that?

1100
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: And I think there are very there are many different

1101
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: ideologies around how to solve that. But from because you

1102
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: are seeing the dysfunction, how would you propose that works

1103
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: in a way that is a equitable most importantly for

1104
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: those who are missing out on, you know, all of

1105
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: the wealth that's being siphoned out. So maybe drawing on

1106
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: a very brief period of my career as a government

1107
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: economist working for Gordon brun Our Chance loves the exchequer

1108
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: at the time. But in economics you always have a

1109
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: cost benefit analysis, and layman speak, it's just a debate.

1110
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: I believe I'm right and you're wrong. You believe you're

1111
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: right and I'm wrong. We're we're perhaps disagreeing about the

1112
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: balance of the costs and the benefits. So if I

1113
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: go back to that Swedish example, social stafet safety nets

1114
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: have costs, Yes, understandable if you look at where America

1115
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: is today and you were to move to that bottle,

1116
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: that brings with it costs. You know, if you want

1117
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 1: to get somewhere, you wouldn't start from here. But it

1118
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: also brings benefits, and I alluded to some of those.

1119
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: Entrepreneurial spirit in Scandinavian economies is as high as anywhere

1120
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: else in the world. The number of startups coming out

1121
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: is is sky high as well. There's a lot of

1122
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: risk taking happening thanks to that social safety net. And

1123
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: you go back to your point about the minimum wage,

1124
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting to think about the cost of

1125
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: the maniun wage. That's bad for profit margins, could create unemployment, etcetera, etcetera.

1126
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: But there's benefits. To Alan Krueger, a dear friend who tragically,

1127
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's no longer with us, but he famously

1128
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: wrote a paper of Card Card and Krueger looking at

1129
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: the minimumation, how it can boost productivity, boost labor market participation.

1130
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: There's other benefits to consider. I again, as the non

1131
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: American on the call, I would just like to see

1132
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: America have a bit more balance where ways up the

1133
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: costs and benefits of either option. I think that could

1134
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: be like just a small step forward in the right direction.

1135
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: It's just to get that balancing point right. It's not

1136
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: just a one a street. You've got to consider the

1137
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: benefits of these models, as well as it course tying

1138
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: out up on minimum wage. I hope, Mike you can

1139
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: dismiss this as fake news. But when minimum wage was

1140
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: being debated in the American economy is a Republican senator

1141
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: who said on record that when I waited tables as

1142
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: a student, I was owning six dollars now and I

1143
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: was just fine. I got along just fine back in

1144
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: the seventies, and that Republicans centered failed to factor in

1145
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: something called inflation into his analysis. But yeah, if that

1146
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: is the standard of debate, your leaders are having a

1147
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: that's woeful. But b let's get balanced. Let's go back

1148
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: to that Card Cooper paper and think about the benefits

1149
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: of these safety nets as well as the costs. And yeah,

1150
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 1: so I seed and maybe it can take root one

1151
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: of the things, Miles, that you're kind of alluding to

1152
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: and and is one of I have to throw it

1153
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: in because it's literally my favorite quote. And Will has

1154
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: heard me say there's dozens of times, but it's wrongfully

1155
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: attributed to Mark Twain, but really from Upton Sinclair. And

1156
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: it's never expect a man to understand something when his

1157
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: job depends on not understanding it. I think that goes

1158
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: a long way to explaining explaining the willful blindness is another.

1159
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: There's a there's a brilliant book written about this, about

1160
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: people's willingness to suspend disbelief. And I just want to

1161
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: raise one quick point about the great interesting test case

1162
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: we're going to deal with here, which is climate. I'm sorry,

1163
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: I don't know how. I don't care how many billions

1164
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: you have. You are not going to be able to

1165
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: escape completely insulate yourself from a heat dome over over

1166
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: thousands of miles radius area of the country that raises

1167
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: temperatures beyond the point at which human habitation is possible.

1168
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: And you are not going to be able to shield

1169
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: yourself from the externalities of of climate. And if one

1170
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 1: does not contri beute to some form of solution, if

1171
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: if we all do not amend our behaviors in some way,

1172
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: we know how this is going to end. And especially

1173
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: the people who are presumably best educated because they have

1174
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: the money to educate themselves and their children. There's no

1175
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: amount of money that is going to save Miami real

1176
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: estate on a fifty year view, and and we certainly

1177
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: are not planning on a thirty year view. As one

1178
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: would need to to build the infrastructure that would potentially

1179
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: save the value of that real estate. And yet, you know,

1180
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: if people want to take an Ostrich like approach to it,

1181
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: I guess you can't prevent them from doing so. But

1182
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: but it's going to be a super interesting test case

1183
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: to see how all the these people who have billions

1184
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: are contributing or not to solve what is clearly a

1185
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: very intractable problem right now. Yeah, interesting test case. It'll

1186
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 1: be the fine phaps the final test case. Well, you

1187
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: tell me where you know what what what land you're

1188
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: going to buy where it's not going to be affected

1189
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: by climate change exactly. Well, that's why we're looking at

1190
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: space folks. Well, guys, it's been such a pleasure having

1191
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: you on such a such an interesting, fun conversation. Where

1192
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 1: can people find you and follow you and hear you. Well,

1193
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: we have a podcast Bubble Trouble, produced by a magnificent

1194
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: Noise and that's wherever you find your podcast Spotify, Apple

1195
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: across the board that's up in morning. And Richard represents

1196
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: a right research and you'll see him getting quote in

1197
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 1: the medio. Fantastic video of him on YouTube with him

1198
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: and Scott Galloway. I definitely recommend people go and check that.

1199
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: When I really entertaining myself, I got the book out.

1200
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: Came out on the eighteenth of May in the US,

1201
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: and that's tars and Economics and the book and everything

1202
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: you need to find about that book about the Eight

1203
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: Principles and pivoting through Disruption that's upon tarzan Economics dot com.

1204
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 1: Nice I will we normally ask our guests, what what's

1205
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: a tweet or some of the work of social media

1206
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying, But I'm guessing that's not that's not

1207
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: something that you guys have to Yeah, listen to Psycho.

1208
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: There's one on LinkedIn which I really liked, which was

1209
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: just how shit are all these poles are springing up

1210
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn in your opinion? Is it a really ship

1211
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: or e B even bigger ship and even bigger ship

1212
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: is currently and really ship is So those poles are

1213
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: really ship. So any poll about which tweet you find

1214
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: interesting is really shit. And I would definitely say for

1215
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: anyone that spends a lot of time on social media.

1216
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: There's a fascinating article in the Atlantic by a woman

1217
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: journalist who got her tech savvy's son to make her

1218
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:59,959
Speaker 1: take a twenty eight day hiatus from it and under

1219
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: no circumstance. It was a great quote in there saying,

1220
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, giving it up it's hard because you always

1221
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: think you can go back. Giving up percent is easy.

1222
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: So for all the people that obsessively check the Twitter

1223
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: before they go to bed or can't can't wait to

1224
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: see how many likes they have on Instagram, go cold

1225
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: Turkey for a solid week or two, and you'll probably

1226
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: find yourself a singer, happier, more balanced individual. Absolutely. Yeah,

1227
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 1: I'll take like a couple of days here and there,

1228
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: and then then I'll be like I just really a

1229
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: couple of days really, or a couple of days kind

1230
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: of like oh, I mean this is yeah, this is

1231
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm in therapy, and I'm like, there's like, you know,

1232
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: have you thought about not using that because it sounds

1233
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: like a source of anxiety feeling like, yeah, you're right,

1234
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: So get off of social media as a form of

1235
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: self care, y'all? Yeah, Miles, where can people find you?

1236
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: What's a tweet you've been enjoying? Find me on Twitter

1237
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: and Instagram a at Miles of Gray. Also the other

1238
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: podcast for twenty Day Fiance. Check that out. A Twitch

1239
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,519
Speaker 1: dot tv Slash two zero day fiance a tweet that

1240
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: I like. First one is from Mike Gin at shut

1241
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: Up Mike Gain, tweeting thirty nine year old producer who

1242
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: has tender age range set from twenty one to twenty

1243
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: four years old. Dating in l A is so weird,

1244
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: people talk wild. Another one is from Sarah Lazarus at

1245
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 1: Sarah see Lazarus. I really love this one. She tweeted.

1246
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 1: There should be a post pandemic full service doctor where

1247
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: you just lie down for a three hour appointment and

1248
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: five people swarm around you and fix you like a

1249
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 1: race car. Yeah that would that would be good. Just

1250
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: a quick health pit stop, real quick, complete with the

1251
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:47,799
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, high power screws ring ring, red bull racing outfits.

1252
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: Uh tweeter, I've been enjoying. Uh at l was a mistake, tweeted,

1253
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: gotta respect the longevity of Microsoft word nothing about it

1254
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: works and it's still the standard. Want to move an image,

1255
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: go to hell, edit a pdf, edit your expectations, ignore

1256
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,560
Speaker 1: a spelling mistake. How about suck my dick? That'll be

1257
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 1: a hundred and uh. You can find us on Twitter

1258
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: at daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram.

1259
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 1: We have a Facebook fan page and a website daily

1260
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: zeitgeist dot com, where we post our episode and our

1261
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 1: foot note the information that we talked about in today's episode,

1262
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you guys

1263
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: should go check out. Miles, what song are you recommending

1264
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: people go check out to that? Okay? Actually, uh, this

1265
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: is uh this is a bit of a parody and

1266
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: it's a twenty two minute YouTube clip. If you remember

1267
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 1: Low Fi Beats to Study Too, that was like this

1268
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: channel on YouTube that would just have this like running

1269
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: animation and like low fi hip hop beats. Yeah, we're

1270
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: a friend of mine. Uh. Fantastic writer, comedian, just overall

1271
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: creative person Alex Sargent. He over on his YouTube page

1272
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: The Layman. He's created low kis low key lo fi

1273
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: relaxing beats to Study time Crimes too. Because of the

1274
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,600
Speaker 1: popularity of the show Loki, so it's not only the

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Speaker 1: God of Mischief, but it's low key lo fi and

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Speaker 1: his cousin did some of the beats on there and

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Speaker 1: they're really good. So if you're a bit of a

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Speaker 1: Marvel fan and you like some lo fi hip hop,

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Speaker 1: this YouTube clip is for you and it's fantastic. It's

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Speaker 1: some great stuff to get your head not too al right. Well.

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Speaker 1: The Daily Zakay is a production of My Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: from More podcast. For my Heart Radio, visit the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows. That's gonna do it for us this morning.

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Speaker 1: We're back this afternoon to tell you what's trending and

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Speaker 1: we will talk to y'all then