WEBVTT - Descend into the Particular 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.556 Pushkin Quick heads Up. This episode contains depictions of violence 0:00:22.596 --> 0:00:29.676 that may be upsetting to some listeners. In a small, 0:00:29.716 --> 0:00:33.196 elegant apartment in Hollywood, a young man sits on his 0:00:33.236 --> 0:00:37.236 couch looking out the open window, remembering the saddest day 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:42.396 of his life. His name is Felipe Navarro, thirty years old, short, 0:00:42.476 --> 0:00:44.956 black hair, a beautiful, wide smile. 0:00:46.076 --> 0:00:49.036 Angel was my brother. He was my only sibling. We 0:00:49.036 --> 0:00:52.556 were born exactly like a year and two weeks apart. 0:00:52.676 --> 0:00:55.316 So my birthday is mid October and he was born 0:00:55.356 --> 0:00:56.636 the following year on Halloween. 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:00.956 That was the beginning, and this was the end. 0:01:01.876 --> 0:01:05.596 He died Thursday May twenty sixth, twenty sixteen, and it 0:01:05.756 --> 0:01:10.236 was about to be Friday, Memorial Day weekend, and we 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:15.636 were not notified until that Sunday morning, and they claimed 0:01:15.676 --> 0:01:18.636 that they couldn't find us, even though they had his wallet, 0:01:18.636 --> 0:01:23.156 and he's an ID. So then come that Sunday, my 0:01:23.236 --> 0:01:26.316 parents had gone to breakfast and they came back and 0:01:26.396 --> 0:01:29.036 there's about four or five cop cars at their home. 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:33.076 Angel had been in New Mexico visiting with a friend. 0:01:33.676 --> 0:01:37.596 Felippe and their parents were in California. Felippe doesn't know 0:01:37.636 --> 0:01:39.836 why it took so long for the New Mexico police 0:01:39.836 --> 0:01:43.396 to notify them three days, didn't his brother have his 0:01:43.476 --> 0:01:46.756 ID on him? And even after the police came, the 0:01:46.836 --> 0:01:48.916 Navarros didn't know what happened to Angel. 0:01:49.516 --> 0:01:52.796 I called the detective, and every time I spoke to her, 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:55.076 they were like, unfortunately, like we can't give you any 0:01:55.116 --> 0:02:00.236 information because it's an investigation, and everything was always under investigation. 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:06.556 And at first I didn't really think anything any sort 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:11.316 of mount malice on the police department, because I don't 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:12.676 even think I knew at that point that he had 0:02:12.676 --> 0:02:15.436 been killed by the police, and I certainly didn't even 0:02:15.476 --> 0:02:17.236 know the backstory of how he even got into that 0:02:17.556 --> 0:02:21.396 altercation with the police. I should say incident, not altercation. 0:02:22.076 --> 0:02:25.836 But I think all I was trying to figure out 0:02:25.916 --> 0:02:27.676 was what was what had happened. 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:31.796 Angel Navarro was killed by the police on Interstate twenty 0:02:31.836 --> 0:02:36.476 five in New Mexico outside Albuquerque on May twenty six, 0:02:36.756 --> 0:02:42.396 twenty sixteen. The officers fired twenty seven times. They thought 0:02:42.476 --> 0:02:46.476 Navarro had a gun in his hand. He didn't. He 0:02:46.516 --> 0:02:53.676 had a cell phone. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:58.636 listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:04.996 This is the final episode in my three part mini 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:10.676 series on thinking like a Jesuit. You now what I'm 0:03:10.756 --> 0:03:13.916 talking about in this episode is not for the feint 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:20.556 of heart. I heard about the shooting of Angel Navarro 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:24.756 because I went to see a forensic criminologist named Ron Martinelli. 0:03:25.316 --> 0:03:27.876 Martinelli works out of a white ranch house in Texas 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:31.356 Hill Country, half an hour north of San Antonio. He's 0:03:31.356 --> 0:03:35.316 in his sixties, built like a prize fighter, bald, thick, 0:03:35.436 --> 0:03:39.796 mustache pickup truck. Likes to be called Doctor Ron. I 0:03:39.796 --> 0:03:42.476 had been obsessed with a police guideline called the twenty 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:45.876 one foot rule and thought Martinelli could help me, But 0:03:45.956 --> 0:03:49.076 then we got off on tangents and never returned. 0:03:49.556 --> 0:03:52.356 I was a tactical officer. I'm a firearms instructor. I'm 0:03:52.396 --> 0:03:56.396 a firearms expert. I've been involved in officer involved shootings. 0:03:56.876 --> 0:04:00.876 Martinelli is an investigator. An instant occurs. He gets called 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:04.276 in to go over the evidence and figure out what happened, reconstruct, 0:04:04.636 --> 0:04:06.596 interpret was there a crime? 0:04:07.276 --> 0:04:10.676 And I sympathize on both sides with regards to officer 0:04:10.756 --> 0:04:14.196 for I've handled officer involved shootings for the defense and 0:04:14.276 --> 0:04:16.836 I've handled officer involved shootings for plaintiffs. 0:04:17.236 --> 0:04:19.556 How many officer involved shooting cases have you done over 0:04:19.596 --> 0:04:22.716 the course of hundreds? Hundreds? 0:04:22.876 --> 0:04:23.476 Yeah. 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:26.316 Martinelli wrote a book a few years ago called The 0:04:26.396 --> 0:04:29.356 Truth Behind the Black Lives Matter Movement and the War 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:33.916 on Police. It has chapters on Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, other 0:04:33.956 --> 0:04:36.596 cases in the news. You want to know about the 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:39.836 Rodney King beating, maybe the most infamous example of police 0:04:39.876 --> 0:04:43.476 brutality in recent American history. Doctor Ron has a lot 0:04:43.476 --> 0:04:44.196 to say about it. 0:04:44.516 --> 0:04:46.876 The baton, you wouldn't have used it. I wouldn't use 0:04:46.916 --> 0:04:51.356 the pepper spray. It wouldn't have worked. There's more dynamics, 0:04:51.396 --> 0:04:55.076 chemical dynamics involved with pepper spray. They wouldn't just here's 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:56.156 the deal, it wouldn't have worked. 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:01.716 At one point we went outside in the garden behind 0:05:01.716 --> 0:05:05.116 his house and we acted out an arrest scenario. I 0:05:05.276 --> 0:05:08.236 was the cop. He was playing the bad guy. He 0:05:08.276 --> 0:05:11.236 gave me a handgun and took another for himself. The 0:05:11.276 --> 0:05:16.076 wind was howling. It was all a bit surreal. My 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:18.796 job was to take him into custody. We ran to 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:22.236 the scenario three times. He shot me dead three times. 0:05:23.076 --> 0:05:25.676 I had the feeling I wasn't the first person shot 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:29.236 dead in Doctor Ron's backyard. We went back inside. 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:31.556 Okay, so we're going to play a kid's game. So 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:34.516 just hold your hand out just like that. Yeah, okay, 0:05:34.956 --> 0:05:36.076 and I'm going to hit your hand. 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:36.836 Yeah okay. 0:05:36.876 --> 0:05:38.476 So I've already told you I'm going to hit your hand, 0:05:38.516 --> 0:05:40.756 so your expectation is I'm going to hit your hand. 0:05:40.836 --> 0:05:42.996 So it's really simple. My hand's right here, and you 0:05:43.076 --> 0:05:44.916 just move it, say, don't get hit. Are you ready? 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:48.716 I was ready. His hand was about a foot above mine. 0:05:49.116 --> 0:05:51.596 I knew he was going to slap me. I still 0:05:51.596 --> 0:05:53.436 couldn't get my hand out of the way in time. 0:05:53.836 --> 0:05:59.996 You're ready, Yeah, you see that. Okay, you get it. Okay, 0:06:00.476 --> 0:06:04.396 So let's talk about action, reaction, perception, lag time. 0:06:07.276 --> 0:06:10.676 Every kid knows how that game plays out. Action is 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:14.476 always faster than reaction. The person who decides to initiate 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:17.676 the slap can always get your hand before you can react. 0:06:18.236 --> 0:06:20.476 That was my problem out in the backyard, he said, 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:23.636 I was afraid of being too aggressive. But if you 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:26.356 wait for the other person to pull their gun, you'll 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:27.036 end up dead. 0:06:28.596 --> 0:06:31.276 Okay, let me set this up for you. 0:06:31.356 --> 0:06:34.796 Yeah, Martinelli pulled out his laptop. He had a YouTube 0:06:34.836 --> 0:06:37.316 video he wanted to show me that proved his point 0:06:37.316 --> 0:06:38.556 about action and reaction. 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:42.796 Swat team's got a warrant on a guy on weapons charges. 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:46.676 Because they bring a whole swap team with them. Everybody's armed, 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:50.796 heavily armed, already got car beans on them. Every guns 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:53.676 are being pointed at this guy. They do the knock, 0:06:54.836 --> 0:06:58.636 the door opens. Here's the guy. He's standing about ten 0:06:58.676 --> 0:07:01.556 feet away, maybe twelve feet away. He's in the living room. 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:03.996 He's got a T shirt, he's wearing shorts. He's got 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:06.996 a gun in his right hand, and the gun is 0:07:07.076 --> 0:07:11.156 down at his side. So the question is how long 0:07:11.476 --> 0:07:14.556 does it take someone with the gun at their side 0:07:15.076 --> 0:07:21.396 to raise up and accurately fire before you can fire? Action, reaction, 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:24.236 perceptional lag time. It's human factors. 0:07:24.236 --> 0:07:29.436 Martinelli presses play. 0:07:30.556 --> 0:07:32.636 Their only problem is they talk to him too much. 0:07:35.636 --> 0:07:38.556 Oh hi, lo, g hold up, move on, can't off 0:07:38.596 --> 0:07:47.076 knocking boom out. There's the gun. You see the gun, 0:07:48.236 --> 0:07:49.756 drop the gun, drop the gun. 0:07:50.076 --> 0:07:50.356 The gun. 0:07:52.116 --> 0:07:54.196 The video is from a camera carried by one of 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:57.516 the cops, so that's the perspective we're seeing. It's all 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:00.596 jumping and confusing. We're looking over the shoulder of one 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:02.476 of the officers at the man in the T shirt. 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:05.116 He looks like he just got out of bed. Then 0:08:05.436 --> 0:08:09.756 suddenly there are shots shouting. It all happens very quickly. 0:08:10.356 --> 0:08:13.316 So what happened I totally wouldn't. 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:14.436 You weren't ready for it. 0:08:14.716 --> 0:08:16.076 He had. So the guy has a gun. 0:08:16.796 --> 0:08:18.916 Jah raised that gun up in twenty five hundreds of 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:22.356 a second and shot two of them, and then they 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:25.756 returned fire and they killed him. So these guys had 0:08:25.796 --> 0:08:27.756 their guns already pointed at him. 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:30.076 Already pointed at him, He has his gun hanging down 0:08:30.116 --> 0:08:33.156 by his side, and he manages to get to shoot 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:36.556 two of them before they kill him. Right, and they're 0:08:37.396 --> 0:08:39.356 trained swat officers. 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:41.516 Right, It's unbelievable. 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:49.596 Okay, My thought watching that video was that the cops 0:08:49.636 --> 0:08:53.356 seemed really aggressive with their body armor and automatic weapons, 0:08:53.796 --> 0:08:57.916 shouting and breaking down someone's door. Martinelli's point was that 0:08:57.996 --> 0:09:01.396 they weren't aggressive enough. They got shot. They could have 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:04.716 been killed. What was all this endless drop the gun 0:09:04.916 --> 0:09:10.036 dropped the gun, but they get shot because they don't 0:09:10.076 --> 0:09:10.756 want to shoot him. 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:15.556 Yeah, I'm not going to tell the guy eighteen times 0:09:15.636 --> 0:09:16.596 to put the gun down. 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:19.636 Okay, what would you done it? 0:09:19.916 --> 0:09:20.436 Shot him? 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:24.076 Oh yeah, as soon as as soon as that end, 0:09:24.276 --> 0:09:26.356 As soon as I saw that end start to come up, 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:29.836 I want to let loose. Yeah, because I understand the 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:31.596 human factors they don't understand. 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:35.636 Martinelli played the video again. There were nuances he wanted 0:09:35.676 --> 0:09:37.916 to show me, like how the officers were holding their 0:09:37.956 --> 0:09:40.876 body shields all wrong. This is what he does for 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:44.876 a living. He watches people kill each other in order 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:47.956 to figure out who did what and why, which requires 0:09:48.036 --> 0:09:50.476 him to go over and over things that in a 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:53.476 perfect world no one should have to see. Even once, 0:09:54.796 --> 0:09:56.516 he told me that he wakes up in the middle 0:09:56.516 --> 0:09:59.996 of the night sometimes and finds himself rearranging bodies in 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:04.036 his mind. It was then, since we were already on 0:10:04.076 --> 0:10:07.316 the topic of police officers shooting people, that he brought 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:10.556 up a case he'd just finished working on one. That's 0:10:11.116 --> 0:10:19.036 when we return. In the two previous episodes, I talked 0:10:19.036 --> 0:10:22.956 about the method of moral reasoning called casuistry, the Jesuit 0:10:23.036 --> 0:10:28.356 way of thinking. The Jesuits believed in the importance of 0:10:28.476 --> 0:10:32.596 descending into the particular of setting aside principles and engaging 0:10:32.716 --> 0:10:35.636 in the specifics of the case in question. One of 0:10:35.636 --> 0:10:38.716 the Jesuits I consulted with was a priest named James Martin, 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:42.476 who spoke about one of the crucial teachings behind this idea, 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:45.876 the Jesuit notion of disordered attachments. 0:10:46.636 --> 0:10:48.516 The person who's discerning should be like the pointer in 0:10:48.556 --> 0:10:49.036 a balance. 0:10:49.436 --> 0:10:52.276 Should be here, shouldn't You shouldn't be here like you know, 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:54.676 someone's putting your finger in the balance. You should be ready, 0:10:54.796 --> 0:10:56.836 right in the center. Yeah, and then you're ready to 0:10:57.076 --> 0:10:59.156 listen to things. Which is a great insight. 0:10:59.836 --> 0:11:01.156 We'll say it. Why did matter? 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:01.316 So? 0:11:01.396 --> 0:11:03.596 Basically, NASA says that if you're going to make a decision, 0:11:03.636 --> 0:11:06.396 you have to come without any preconceived notions. You have 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:08.516 to be like the pointer on a balance, those old 0:11:08.556 --> 0:11:11.236 scales the supermarket for fruit. 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:12.716 You have to be at zero. 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:17.236 A disordered attachment is not a vice. It's just something 0:11:17.276 --> 0:11:19.316 that gets in the way of us being open minded, 0:11:20.036 --> 0:11:22.516 being free to really listen to what others are saying 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:23.076 and feeling. 0:11:23.756 --> 0:11:25.916 You know, when I was a novice, a Jesuit novice, 0:11:26.996 --> 0:11:30.156 my novice director, we would do ministries, different ministries in 0:11:30.196 --> 0:11:33.156 addition to praying in the house and learning about the 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:35.316 Jesuits and that was a key part of our work, 0:11:36.356 --> 0:11:38.596 and it was with the poor or the sick. And 0:11:38.796 --> 0:11:39.996 he said, well, where do you want to go? And 0:11:40.036 --> 0:11:41.676 I said, well, let me just say the last place 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:44.276 I want to work as an hospital because I just don't. 0:11:44.196 --> 0:11:45.916 Like the sights and the smells and the sounds and 0:11:45.956 --> 0:11:48.196 it just grosses me out. And he said, well, good, 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:51.036 you'll be working in a hospital. And it wasn't to 0:11:51.116 --> 0:11:56.276 be mean. It was to free me of that disordered attachment. 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:59.996 Martin could not be truly capable of service to another 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:04.356 because he was too attached to his own fears. Let 0:12:04.436 --> 0:12:07.076 me put this same issue of disordered attachments to you. 0:12:08.356 --> 0:12:11.636 Remember what how In Ferguson, Missouri in late summer of 0:12:11.756 --> 0:12:12.876 twenty fourteen. 0:12:12.956 --> 0:12:16.516 There was growing outrage tonight after an unarmed African American 0:12:16.596 --> 0:12:19.196 teenager was shot and killed by police in the Saint 0:12:19.276 --> 0:12:23.276 Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. But there are conflicting reports 0:12:23.316 --> 0:12:26.276 about what led up to the shooting. NBC's John Yang 0:12:26.396 --> 0:12:27.236 has the details. 0:12:27.756 --> 0:12:30.836 A police officer named Darren Wilson. Here's a report that 0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:34.356 a teenager has allegedly stolen something from a convenience store, 0:12:34.876 --> 0:12:38.396 a box of cigars. He spots eighteen year old Michael 0:12:38.436 --> 0:12:41.236 Brown walking down the middle of the street, thinks Brown 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:45.556 matches the description of the suspect and pulls over. Ninety 0:12:45.676 --> 0:12:49.756 seconds later, Brown is dead. The black community in Ferguson 0:12:49.876 --> 0:12:53.996 erupts in protest for weeks. The police counter with armored 0:12:54.036 --> 0:12:57.276 cars and snipers and a small army of officers in combat. 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:01.276 Year people took sides according to whatever ideology they were 0:13:01.316 --> 0:13:04.636 attached to. Either this was about law and order and 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:07.796 you were on Darren Wilson's side, or this was about 0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:12.276 police brutality and you were on Michael Brown's side. So 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.996 what happened after Ferguson. Well, the following spring, the Civil 0:13:17.076 --> 0:13:20.356 Rights Division of the Department of Justice issued two reports 0:13:20.396 --> 0:13:24.116 on the case. The first said, we're not indicting officer 0:13:24.196 --> 0:13:27.116 Darren Wilson. What he did doesn't meet the federal legal 0:13:27.156 --> 0:13:31.556 standard for police misconduct. The second federal report came out 0:13:31.596 --> 0:13:34.276 the same day. It was what's called a patterns and 0:13:34.476 --> 0:13:38.996 practices investigation. It was a broader look at policing in Ferguson. 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:42.796 One of the principal authors of the second report was 0:13:42.796 --> 0:13:44.476 a lawyer named Cherog Baines. 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:47.036 I mean What we found was something I hadn't seen 0:13:47.076 --> 0:13:50.396 in other departments, but I've since learned exists in many 0:13:50.436 --> 0:13:53.236 places in America, which is a police department and actually 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:57.316 an entire criminal justice architecture that existed and operated to 0:13:57.436 --> 0:14:02.036 extract wealth from the community, and specifically from the black 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:03.356 community in Ferguson. 0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:06.516 Baines and his team arrived in Ferguson two days after 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:09.676 Michael Brown was killed. They stayed there on and off 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:13.116 for five months. What they found was that Ferguson was 0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:16.636 using its police department to fund the city's budget, and. 0:14:16.996 --> 0:14:20.196 That colored everything that they did know who they arrested, 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:23.956 who they stopped, who they issued citations to, who got leniency, 0:14:24.396 --> 0:14:28.516 and who was met without any in the court, who 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:31.196 was willing to cooperate with law enforcement. There are a 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:34.116 number of emails from the finance director to the police 0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:36.836 chief asking him if you can raise revenues, often by 0:14:36.956 --> 0:14:41.956 very specific numbers. There's one saying, can you increase what 0:14:42.076 --> 0:14:43.916 the last increase you were able to do was seven 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:46.316 point five percent over last year's revenues. Can you bring 0:14:46.396 --> 0:14:48.356 that up to ten percent this year? Can we get 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:50.836 over a million in revenues this year? And fines and fees. 0:14:51.156 --> 0:14:53.716 There's even an email where the finance director is suggesting 0:14:53.756 --> 0:14:57.316 to the police chief a particular enforcement strategy, suggesting that 0:14:57.356 --> 0:14:59.996 he deploy a certain number of overtime officers for traffic 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:02.596 enforcement and a certain part of the city in order 0:15:02.676 --> 0:15:05.036 to and this is a quote, fill the revenue pipeline. 0:15:05.756 --> 0:15:07.956 It's very bizarre for the finance director to be issuing 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:10.556 any kind of instruction to the police chief on how 0:15:10.596 --> 0:15:15.236 to deploy patrol officers. But that's a window into what 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:17.196 the priority was and what they decided to use their 0:15:17.236 --> 0:15:17.876 police force for. 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:21.836 Bains and his team found evidence that one time officials 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:24.516 in Ferguson wanted to get rid of an incompetent judge, 0:15:25.156 --> 0:15:27.996 but the city manager said, we can't get rid of him. 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:32.796 He's too good at levying fines. Police officers were rewarded 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:36.796 and promoted for their productivity, meaning how many tickets they issued, 0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:39.876 so of course they issued a lot of tickets. Any 0:15:39.956 --> 0:15:42.796 offense would do. Bains remembers one case of a man 0:15:42.836 --> 0:15:45.436 who was sitting in his car at a playground cooling 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:49.436 off after playing basketball. An officer drove up, blocked the 0:15:49.516 --> 0:15:51.836 man's car and demanded to see an ID. 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:54.516 I think he said something to the effect of like, 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:56.236 there are kids here and you're at the park. What 0:15:56.276 --> 0:15:58.516 are You're a palot pedophile. I don't know the exact words, 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:00.476 but that would it's my sense of what happened from 0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:04.476 talking to the gentleman, and the officer then orders him 0:16:04.516 --> 0:16:09.596 out of the car, and the guy says, well, I'm 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:10.196 not doing anything. 0:16:10.196 --> 0:16:11.476 I mean, I have constitutional rights. 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:14.476 I'm just sitting here, just playing ball, and the officer 0:16:14.596 --> 0:16:18.956 then actually pulls his gun on the guy and you know, 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:21.556 threatening him and insisting that he got out of the car. 0:16:23.196 --> 0:16:25.116 The way the incident ends is that the officer writes 0:16:25.156 --> 0:16:29.116 him up for eight different tickets, including not having a 0:16:29.196 --> 0:16:31.116 seat belt on he was sitting in his car at 0:16:31.156 --> 0:16:34.436 the park, not having a license, and also having a 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:36.996 suspended license. He managed to issue both. 0:16:36.916 --> 0:16:41.396 Charges eight tickets. One of them was for using a 0:16:41.476 --> 0:16:44.436 false name because the guy used his nickname like Tom 0:16:44.556 --> 0:16:49.596 instead of Thomas. If you read the two Department of 0:16:49.796 --> 0:16:53.436 Justice reports together, what you realize is that after Brown's death, 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:58.476 both sides in the debate were wrong. One side said 0:16:59.036 --> 0:17:03.236 Darren Wilson shot and killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood. Remember, 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:05.036 there was a big to do about the fact that 0:17:05.196 --> 0:17:07.316 Michael Brown was supposed to have put his hands up 0:17:07.396 --> 0:17:08.756 and said, don't shoot. 0:17:09.996 --> 0:17:12.076 The facts of this case, when you look at what 0:17:12.476 --> 0:17:14.436 we found on the criminal side with the justice partman 0:17:14.476 --> 0:17:17.436 found on the criminal side were that Michael Brown didn't 0:17:17.476 --> 0:17:19.436 have his hands up and he wasn't surrendering when he 0:17:19.556 --> 0:17:21.516 was shot. But that's what people thought, and that's a 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:22.916 narrative that quickly developed. 0:17:23.236 --> 0:17:27.316 The DOJ concluded after reviewing forensic evidence that at one 0:17:27.356 --> 0:17:30.596 point Michael Brown reached into Wilson's open car window and 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:34.836 wrestled with him over his gun. For goodness sake, if 0:17:34.916 --> 0:17:36.996 you think this is a case about a rogue cop, 0:17:37.516 --> 0:17:40.796 you missed the point. The shooting of Michael Brown is 0:17:40.916 --> 0:17:45.156 not about a homicidal cop. It's about decades of predatory policing, 0:17:45.596 --> 0:17:48.956 about the consequences of having an entire law enforcement system 0:17:49.356 --> 0:17:54.796 organized around looting the black community. Meanwhile, the other side 0:17:54.916 --> 0:17:59.116 sees that Wilson is not facing federal charges and says, see, 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:02.676 we were right. The police officer didn't do anything wrong. 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:05.756 This case is about a breakdown in respect for law 0:18:05.796 --> 0:18:11.156 and order. But that completely misses the point. Yes, Michael 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:13.716 Brown was a kid who did not view police power 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:17.316 as legitimate. But that's because he lived in a town 0:18:17.756 --> 0:18:19.796 where police power was not legitimate. 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:27.716 And so for me, it's very important that people read 0:18:27.756 --> 0:18:30.956 both reports. I've spoken on this topic a number of times, 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:34.036 and I'm often speaking to a group that's only read 0:18:34.076 --> 0:18:37.756 one report, or sometimes that has read both reports, or 0:18:37.836 --> 0:18:40.236 read some parts of both reports but only believes one. 0:18:40.916 --> 0:18:42.916 And I have to say, it was the same Justice 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:45.916 department that did both reports. There wasn't an agenda here 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:49.916 to bury the truth. It was a very thorough investigation 0:18:49.996 --> 0:18:53.596 on both sides. And it's rare to find people who 0:18:54.076 --> 0:18:56.476 read both and believe both and understand how they connect. 0:18:57.676 --> 0:19:01.476 It's rare to find people who read both and believe 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:06.196 both and understand how they connect. It's rare to find 0:19:06.236 --> 0:19:10.236 people without disordered attachments when it comes to police shootings. 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:16.676 So Angel Navarro, the case Doctor Ron brought up unexpectedly, 0:19:17.276 --> 0:19:20.756 and that I have to admit left me shaken. Let's 0:19:20.796 --> 0:19:26.476 start with a clean slate. The shooting of Angel Navarro 0:19:26.676 --> 0:19:28.836 was captured by the dash cam video of one of 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:31.956 the officers involved in the incident. You cannot find it 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:35.516 on the internet. It was not released publicly for the 0:19:35.636 --> 0:19:38.516 longest time. The New Mexico police wouldn't even give it 0:19:38.556 --> 0:19:43.756 to the Navarro family, which made Felipe Navarro suspicious. He 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:47.716 and his parents filed a lawsuit, hired two lawyers on contingency, 0:19:48.276 --> 0:19:54.716 Erica Anderson and Lauren Oliveros. My researcher, Camille Baptista, went 0:19:54.796 --> 0:19:58.076 to Los Angeles to talk to Felipe. They sat together 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:00.956 for a couple of hours. He talked about how draining 0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:04.796 the case was, depositions, motions, the whole thing went on 0:20:04.956 --> 0:20:07.916 for two and a half years. His lawyers tried to 0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:08.596 warn him. 0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:15.396 Because it was recorded on video the incident, and because 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:19.116 of a certain evidence that was, you know there. I 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:21.716 thought it was sort of cut and dry as to 0:20:22.116 --> 0:20:25.756 what the tape showed and what they were arguing and 0:20:25.876 --> 0:20:29.276 what we were arguing. So in my mind that's where 0:20:29.316 --> 0:20:32.516 I said. I like then I was naive and thinking like, oh, well, 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:35.076 like the tape's there, like this is evidence. It's like 0:20:35.156 --> 0:20:39.636 the camera doesn't lie, you know. But you know, I 0:20:40.396 --> 0:20:45.796 remember we would have talks about like like how lawsuits work. 0:20:46.396 --> 0:20:48.316 In my mind, I was like, I don't know how 0:20:48.316 --> 0:20:55.036 you could possibly justify three people shooting in an unarmed person, 0:20:55.236 --> 0:20:59.596 one person, twenty seven times. When did you first see 0:20:59.676 --> 0:21:02.636 the video? You described that you saw the video. We 0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:06.556 did not get the video for I think like six months. 0:21:07.076 --> 0:21:09.636 It was not an easy thing to get. You saw it, 0:21:09.756 --> 0:21:13.076 you had like strong feelings about what it showed. If 0:21:13.116 --> 0:21:16.636 I could, you know, put myself in their shoes and 0:21:16.796 --> 0:21:19.356 vice versa, because I did try to do that and 0:21:19.476 --> 0:21:22.516 sort of okay, let me, I know my brother, I 0:21:22.676 --> 0:21:26.036 know him, you know enough to know that what I 0:21:26.116 --> 0:21:28.356 saw on the video was kind of odd behavior from him. 0:21:29.556 --> 0:21:30.916 It seemed a little erratic. 0:21:35.556 --> 0:21:36.796 This was a challenging one. 0:21:37.796 --> 0:21:40.556 Ron Martinelli was retained as an expert witness by the 0:21:40.596 --> 0:21:43.596 new Mexico Attorney General on behalf of the state police. 0:21:44.436 --> 0:21:45.716 He watched the tape as well. 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:49.076 What was the challenge for me as a criminologist using 0:21:49.156 --> 0:21:52.876 our audio videologist and breaking it down and showing the 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:55.396 judge that, hey, this is what it was about. That 0:21:55.596 --> 0:21:56.676 judge had no idea. 0:21:59.396 --> 0:22:02.236 Martinelli had a phrase he kept saying to me, every 0:22:02.396 --> 0:22:05.356 case is different, which I began to realize was his 0:22:05.476 --> 0:22:08.956 operating principle, kind of like the injunction of the Jesuits 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:12.516 to descend into the particular you have to assume that 0:22:12.596 --> 0:22:16.636 the specifics, the details of the case in question matter. 0:22:17.476 --> 0:22:20.796 His task was to work backwards from the shooting, reconstructing 0:22:20.836 --> 0:22:23.996 the hours before the New Mexico police confronted Angel Navarro 0:22:24.476 --> 0:22:26.516 until he had a complete narrative of that day. 0:22:28.076 --> 0:22:30.836 Emergency likes your reporter, sling harper you. 0:22:34.956 --> 0:22:37.276 This is what he believes Angel Navarro did. 0:22:38.076 --> 0:22:41.316 He drops his girlfriend off and he's in a parking 0:22:41.396 --> 0:22:47.676 lot and he gets out of the car and he confronts, uh, 0:22:48.716 --> 0:22:51.716 just some citizen on the street, and I'm giving you 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:56.276 the synopsized version, and he slices him with a knife. 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:01.076 With the knife, yes, he's got me in the hand 0:23:01.156 --> 0:23:03.676 with it, and then he leaves. 0:23:04.316 --> 0:23:07.436