1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,556
Speaker 1: Pushkin Quick heads Up. This episode contains depictions of violence

2
00:00:22,596 --> 00:00:29,676
Speaker 1: that may be upsetting to some listeners. In a small,

3
00:00:29,716 --> 00:00:33,196
Speaker 1: elegant apartment in Hollywood, a young man sits on his

4
00:00:33,236 --> 00:00:37,236
Speaker 1: couch looking out the open window, remembering the saddest day

5
00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:42,396
Speaker 1: of his life. His name is Felipe Navarro, thirty years old, short,

6
00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:44,956
Speaker 1: black hair, a beautiful, wide smile.

7
00:00:46,076 --> 00:00:49,036
Speaker 2: Angel was my brother. He was my only sibling. We

8
00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:52,556
Speaker 2: were born exactly like a year and two weeks apart.

9
00:00:52,676 --> 00:00:55,316
Speaker 2: So my birthday is mid October and he was born

10
00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:56,636
Speaker 2: the following year on Halloween.

11
00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,956
Speaker 1: That was the beginning, and this was the end.

12
00:01:01,876 --> 00:01:05,596
Speaker 2: He died Thursday May twenty sixth, twenty sixteen, and it

13
00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:10,236
Speaker 2: was about to be Friday, Memorial Day weekend, and we

14
00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:15,636
Speaker 2: were not notified until that Sunday morning, and they claimed

15
00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:18,636
Speaker 2: that they couldn't find us, even though they had his wallet,

16
00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:23,156
Speaker 2: and he's an ID. So then come that Sunday, my

17
00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:26,316
Speaker 2: parents had gone to breakfast and they came back and

18
00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:29,036
Speaker 2: there's about four or five cop cars at their home.

19
00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:33,076
Speaker 1: Angel had been in New Mexico visiting with a friend.

20
00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:37,596
Speaker 1: Felippe and their parents were in California. Felippe doesn't know

21
00:01:37,636 --> 00:01:39,836
Speaker 1: why it took so long for the New Mexico police

22
00:01:39,836 --> 00:01:43,396
Speaker 1: to notify them three days, didn't his brother have his

23
00:01:43,476 --> 00:01:46,756
Speaker 1: ID on him? And even after the police came, the

24
00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:48,916
Speaker 1: Navarros didn't know what happened to Angel.

25
00:01:49,516 --> 00:01:52,796
Speaker 2: I called the detective, and every time I spoke to her,

26
00:01:52,916 --> 00:01:55,076
Speaker 2: they were like, unfortunately, like we can't give you any

27
00:01:55,116 --> 00:02:00,236
Speaker 2: information because it's an investigation, and everything was always under investigation.

28
00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:06,556
Speaker 2: And at first I didn't really think anything any sort

29
00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:11,316
Speaker 2: of mount malice on the police department, because I don't

30
00:02:11,316 --> 00:02:12,676
Speaker 2: even think I knew at that point that he had

31
00:02:12,676 --> 00:02:15,436
Speaker 2: been killed by the police, and I certainly didn't even

32
00:02:15,476 --> 00:02:17,236
Speaker 2: know the backstory of how he even got into that

33
00:02:17,556 --> 00:02:21,396
Speaker 2: altercation with the police. I should say incident, not altercation.

34
00:02:22,076 --> 00:02:25,836
Speaker 2: But I think all I was trying to figure out

35
00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:27,676
Speaker 2: was what was what had happened.

36
00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:31,796
Speaker 1: Angel Navarro was killed by the police on Interstate twenty

37
00:02:31,836 --> 00:02:36,476
Speaker 1: five in New Mexico outside Albuquerque on May twenty six,

38
00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:42,396
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. The officers fired twenty seven times. They thought

39
00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:46,476
Speaker 1: Navarro had a gun in his hand. He didn't. He

40
00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:53,676
Speaker 1: had a cell phone. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're

41
00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:58,636
Speaker 1: listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood.

42
00:03:01,916 --> 00:03:04,996
Speaker 1: This is the final episode in my three part mini

43
00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:10,676
Speaker 1: series on thinking like a Jesuit. You now what I'm

44
00:03:10,756 --> 00:03:13,916
Speaker 1: talking about in this episode is not for the feint

45
00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:20,556
Speaker 1: of heart. I heard about the shooting of Angel Navarro

46
00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:24,756
Speaker 1: because I went to see a forensic criminologist named Ron Martinelli.

47
00:03:25,316 --> 00:03:27,876
Speaker 1: Martinelli works out of a white ranch house in Texas

48
00:03:27,996 --> 00:03:31,356
Speaker 1: Hill Country, half an hour north of San Antonio. He's

49
00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:35,316
Speaker 1: in his sixties, built like a prize fighter, bald, thick,

50
00:03:35,436 --> 00:03:39,796
Speaker 1: mustache pickup truck. Likes to be called Doctor Ron. I

51
00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:42,476
Speaker 1: had been obsessed with a police guideline called the twenty

52
00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:45,876
Speaker 1: one foot rule and thought Martinelli could help me, But

53
00:03:45,956 --> 00:03:49,076
Speaker 1: then we got off on tangents and never returned.

54
00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:52,356
Speaker 3: I was a tactical officer. I'm a firearms instructor. I'm

55
00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:56,396
Speaker 3: a firearms expert. I've been involved in officer involved shootings.

56
00:03:56,876 --> 00:04:00,876
Speaker 1: Martinelli is an investigator. An instant occurs. He gets called

57
00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:04,276
Speaker 1: in to go over the evidence and figure out what happened, reconstruct,

58
00:04:04,636 --> 00:04:06,596
Speaker 1: interpret was there a crime?

59
00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:10,676
Speaker 3: And I sympathize on both sides with regards to officer

60
00:04:10,756 --> 00:04:14,196
Speaker 3: for I've handled officer involved shootings for the defense and

61
00:04:14,276 --> 00:04:16,836
Speaker 3: I've handled officer involved shootings for plaintiffs.

62
00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:19,556
Speaker 1: How many officer involved shooting cases have you done over

63
00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:22,716
Speaker 1: the course of hundreds? Hundreds?

64
00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:23,476
Speaker 3: Yeah.

65
00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:26,316
Speaker 1: Martinelli wrote a book a few years ago called The

66
00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,356
Speaker 1: Truth Behind the Black Lives Matter Movement and the War

67
00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:33,916
Speaker 1: on Police. It has chapters on Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, other

68
00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:36,596
Speaker 1: cases in the news. You want to know about the

69
00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:39,836
Speaker 1: Rodney King beating, maybe the most infamous example of police

70
00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:43,476
Speaker 1: brutality in recent American history. Doctor Ron has a lot

71
00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:44,196
Speaker 1: to say about it.

72
00:04:44,516 --> 00:04:46,876
Speaker 3: The baton, you wouldn't have used it. I wouldn't use

73
00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:51,356
Speaker 3: the pepper spray. It wouldn't have worked. There's more dynamics,

74
00:04:51,396 --> 00:04:55,076
Speaker 3: chemical dynamics involved with pepper spray. They wouldn't just here's

75
00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:56,156
Speaker 3: the deal, it wouldn't have worked.

76
00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:01,716
Speaker 1: At one point we went outside in the garden behind

77
00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:05,116
Speaker 1: his house and we acted out an arrest scenario. I

78
00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:08,236
Speaker 1: was the cop. He was playing the bad guy. He

79
00:05:08,276 --> 00:05:11,236
Speaker 1: gave me a handgun and took another for himself. The

80
00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:16,076
Speaker 1: wind was howling. It was all a bit surreal. My

81
00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:18,796
Speaker 1: job was to take him into custody. We ran to

82
00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:22,236
Speaker 1: the scenario three times. He shot me dead three times.

83
00:05:23,076 --> 00:05:25,676
Speaker 1: I had the feeling I wasn't the first person shot

84
00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:29,236
Speaker 1: dead in Doctor Ron's backyard. We went back inside.

85
00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:31,556
Speaker 3: Okay, so we're going to play a kid's game. So

86
00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:34,516
Speaker 3: just hold your hand out just like that. Yeah, okay,

87
00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:36,076
Speaker 3: and I'm going to hit your hand.

88
00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:36,836
Speaker 1: Yeah okay.

89
00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:38,476
Speaker 3: So I've already told you I'm going to hit your hand,

90
00:05:38,516 --> 00:05:40,756
Speaker 3: so your expectation is I'm going to hit your hand.

91
00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:42,996
Speaker 3: So it's really simple. My hand's right here, and you

92
00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:44,916
Speaker 3: just move it, say, don't get hit. Are you ready?

93
00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:48,716
Speaker 1: I was ready. His hand was about a foot above mine.

94
00:05:49,116 --> 00:05:51,596
Speaker 1: I knew he was going to slap me. I still

95
00:05:51,596 --> 00:05:53,436
Speaker 1: couldn't get my hand out of the way in time.

96
00:05:53,836 --> 00:05:59,996
Speaker 3: You're ready, Yeah, you see that. Okay, you get it. Okay,

97
00:06:00,476 --> 00:06:04,396
Speaker 3: So let's talk about action, reaction, perception, lag time.

98
00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:10,676
Speaker 1: Every kid knows how that game plays out. Action is

99
00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:14,476
Speaker 1: always faster than reaction. The person who decides to initiate

100
00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:17,676
Speaker 1: the slap can always get your hand before you can react.

101
00:06:18,236 --> 00:06:20,476
Speaker 1: That was my problem out in the backyard, he said,

102
00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:23,636
Speaker 1: I was afraid of being too aggressive. But if you

103
00:06:23,676 --> 00:06:26,356
Speaker 1: wait for the other person to pull their gun, you'll

104
00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:27,036
Speaker 1: end up dead.

105
00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:31,276
Speaker 3: Okay, let me set this up for you.

106
00:06:31,356 --> 00:06:34,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, Martinelli pulled out his laptop. He had a YouTube

107
00:06:34,836 --> 00:06:37,316
Speaker 1: video he wanted to show me that proved his point

108
00:06:37,316 --> 00:06:38,556
Speaker 1: about action and reaction.

109
00:06:39,436 --> 00:06:42,796
Speaker 3: Swat team's got a warrant on a guy on weapons charges.

110
00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:46,676
Speaker 3: Because they bring a whole swap team with them. Everybody's armed,

111
00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:50,796
Speaker 3: heavily armed, already got car beans on them. Every guns

112
00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:53,676
Speaker 3: are being pointed at this guy. They do the knock,

113
00:06:54,836 --> 00:06:58,636
Speaker 3: the door opens. Here's the guy. He's standing about ten

114
00:06:58,676 --> 00:07:01,556
Speaker 3: feet away, maybe twelve feet away. He's in the living room.

115
00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:03,996
Speaker 3: He's got a T shirt, he's wearing shorts. He's got

116
00:07:04,036 --> 00:07:06,996
Speaker 3: a gun in his right hand, and the gun is

117
00:07:07,076 --> 00:07:11,156
Speaker 3: down at his side. So the question is how long

118
00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:14,556
Speaker 3: does it take someone with the gun at their side

119
00:07:15,076 --> 00:07:21,396
Speaker 3: to raise up and accurately fire before you can fire? Action, reaction,

120
00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:24,236
Speaker 3: perceptional lag time. It's human factors.

121
00:07:24,236 --> 00:07:29,436
Speaker 1: Martinelli presses play.

122
00:07:30,556 --> 00:07:32,636
Speaker 3: Their only problem is they talk to him too much.

123
00:07:35,636 --> 00:07:38,556
Speaker 3: Oh hi, lo, g hold up, move on, can't off

124
00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:47,076
Speaker 3: knocking boom out. There's the gun. You see the gun,

125
00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:49,756
Speaker 3: drop the gun, drop the gun.

126
00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:50,356
Speaker 4: The gun.

127
00:07:52,116 --> 00:07:54,196
Speaker 1: The video is from a camera carried by one of

128
00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:57,516
Speaker 1: the cops, so that's the perspective we're seeing. It's all

129
00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:00,596
Speaker 1: jumping and confusing. We're looking over the shoulder of one

130
00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:02,476
Speaker 1: of the officers at the man in the T shirt.

131
00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:05,116
Speaker 1: He looks like he just got out of bed. Then

132
00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:09,756
Speaker 1: suddenly there are shots shouting. It all happens very quickly.

133
00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:13,316
Speaker 1: So what happened I totally wouldn't.

134
00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:14,436
Speaker 3: You weren't ready for it.

135
00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:16,076
Speaker 1: He had. So the guy has a gun.

136
00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:18,916
Speaker 3: Jah raised that gun up in twenty five hundreds of

137
00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:22,356
Speaker 3: a second and shot two of them, and then they

138
00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:25,756
Speaker 3: returned fire and they killed him. So these guys had

139
00:08:25,796 --> 00:08:27,756
Speaker 3: their guns already pointed at him.

140
00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:30,076
Speaker 1: Already pointed at him, He has his gun hanging down

141
00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:33,156
Speaker 1: by his side, and he manages to get to shoot

142
00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:36,556
Speaker 1: two of them before they kill him. Right, and they're

143
00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:39,356
Speaker 1: trained swat officers.

144
00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:41,516
Speaker 5: Right, It's unbelievable.

145
00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:49,596
Speaker 1: Okay, My thought watching that video was that the cops

146
00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:53,356
Speaker 1: seemed really aggressive with their body armor and automatic weapons,

147
00:08:53,796 --> 00:08:57,916
Speaker 1: shouting and breaking down someone's door. Martinelli's point was that

148
00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:01,396
Speaker 1: they weren't aggressive enough. They got shot. They could have

149
00:09:01,436 --> 00:09:04,716
Speaker 1: been killed. What was all this endless drop the gun

150
00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:10,036
Speaker 1: dropped the gun, but they get shot because they don't

151
00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:10,756
Speaker 1: want to shoot him.

152
00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:15,556
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not going to tell the guy eighteen times

153
00:09:15,636 --> 00:09:16,596
Speaker 3: to put the gun down.

154
00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,636
Speaker 1: Okay, what would you done it?

155
00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:20,436
Speaker 2: Shot him?

156
00:09:22,076 --> 00:09:24,076
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, as soon as as soon as that end,

157
00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:26,356
Speaker 3: As soon as I saw that end start to come up,

158
00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:29,836
Speaker 3: I want to let loose. Yeah, because I understand the

159
00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:31,596
Speaker 3: human factors they don't understand.

160
00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:35,636
Speaker 1: Martinelli played the video again. There were nuances he wanted

161
00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:37,916
Speaker 1: to show me, like how the officers were holding their

162
00:09:37,956 --> 00:09:40,876
Speaker 1: body shields all wrong. This is what he does for

163
00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:44,876
Speaker 1: a living. He watches people kill each other in order

164
00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,956
Speaker 1: to figure out who did what and why, which requires

165
00:09:48,036 --> 00:09:50,476
Speaker 1: him to go over and over things that in a

166
00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:53,476
Speaker 1: perfect world no one should have to see. Even once,

167
00:09:54,796 --> 00:09:56,516
Speaker 1: he told me that he wakes up in the middle

168
00:09:56,516 --> 00:09:59,996
Speaker 1: of the night sometimes and finds himself rearranging bodies in

169
00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:04,036
Speaker 1: his mind. It was then, since we were already on

170
00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:07,316
Speaker 1: the topic of police officers shooting people, that he brought

171
00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:10,556
Speaker 1: up a case he'd just finished working on one. That's

172
00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:19,036
Speaker 1: when we return. In the two previous episodes, I talked

173
00:10:19,036 --> 00:10:22,956
Speaker 1: about the method of moral reasoning called casuistry, the Jesuit

174
00:10:23,036 --> 00:10:28,356
Speaker 1: way of thinking. The Jesuits believed in the importance of

175
00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:32,596
Speaker 1: descending into the particular of setting aside principles and engaging

176
00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,636
Speaker 1: in the specifics of the case in question. One of

177
00:10:35,636 --> 00:10:38,716
Speaker 1: the Jesuits I consulted with was a priest named James Martin,

178
00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:42,476
Speaker 1: who spoke about one of the crucial teachings behind this idea,

179
00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:45,876
Speaker 1: the Jesuit notion of disordered attachments.

180
00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:48,516
Speaker 6: The person who's discerning should be like the pointer in

181
00:10:48,556 --> 00:10:49,036
Speaker 6: a balance.

182
00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:52,276
Speaker 4: Should be here, shouldn't You shouldn't be here like you know,

183
00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,676
Speaker 4: someone's putting your finger in the balance. You should be ready,

184
00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:56,836
Speaker 4: right in the center. Yeah, and then you're ready to

185
00:10:57,076 --> 00:10:59,156
Speaker 4: listen to things. Which is a great insight.

186
00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:01,156
Speaker 5: We'll say it. Why did matter?

187
00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:01,316
Speaker 7: So?

188
00:11:01,396 --> 00:11:03,596
Speaker 4: Basically, NASA says that if you're going to make a decision,

189
00:11:03,636 --> 00:11:06,396
Speaker 4: you have to come without any preconceived notions. You have

190
00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:08,516
Speaker 4: to be like the pointer on a balance, those old

191
00:11:08,556 --> 00:11:11,236
Speaker 4: scales the supermarket for fruit.

192
00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:12,716
Speaker 6: You have to be at zero.

193
00:11:13,676 --> 00:11:17,236
Speaker 1: A disordered attachment is not a vice. It's just something

194
00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:19,316
Speaker 1: that gets in the way of us being open minded,

195
00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:22,516
Speaker 1: being free to really listen to what others are saying

196
00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:23,076
Speaker 1: and feeling.

197
00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:25,916
Speaker 4: You know, when I was a novice, a Jesuit novice,

198
00:11:26,996 --> 00:11:30,156
Speaker 4: my novice director, we would do ministries, different ministries in

199
00:11:30,196 --> 00:11:33,156
Speaker 4: addition to praying in the house and learning about the

200
00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:35,316
Speaker 4: Jesuits and that was a key part of our work,

201
00:11:36,356 --> 00:11:38,596
Speaker 4: and it was with the poor or the sick. And

202
00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:39,996
Speaker 4: he said, well, where do you want to go? And

203
00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:41,676
Speaker 4: I said, well, let me just say the last place

204
00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:44,276
Speaker 4: I want to work as an hospital because I just don't.

205
00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:45,916
Speaker 6: Like the sights and the smells and the sounds and

206
00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:48,196
Speaker 6: it just grosses me out. And he said, well, good,

207
00:11:48,196 --> 00:11:51,036
Speaker 6: you'll be working in a hospital. And it wasn't to

208
00:11:51,116 --> 00:11:56,276
Speaker 6: be mean. It was to free me of that disordered attachment.

209
00:11:57,036 --> 00:11:59,996
Speaker 1: Martin could not be truly capable of service to another

210
00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:04,356
Speaker 1: because he was too attached to his own fears. Let

211
00:12:04,436 --> 00:12:07,076
Speaker 1: me put this same issue of disordered attachments to you.

212
00:12:08,356 --> 00:12:11,636
Speaker 1: Remember what how In Ferguson, Missouri in late summer of

213
00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:12,876
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen.

214
00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:16,516
Speaker 8: There was growing outrage tonight after an unarmed African American

215
00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,196
Speaker 8: teenager was shot and killed by police in the Saint

216
00:12:19,276 --> 00:12:23,276
Speaker 8: Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. But there are conflicting reports

217
00:12:23,316 --> 00:12:26,276
Speaker 8: about what led up to the shooting. NBC's John Yang

218
00:12:26,396 --> 00:12:27,236
Speaker 8: has the details.

219
00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:30,836
Speaker 1: A police officer named Darren Wilson. Here's a report that

220
00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:34,356
Speaker 1: a teenager has allegedly stolen something from a convenience store,

221
00:12:34,876 --> 00:12:38,396
Speaker 1: a box of cigars. He spots eighteen year old Michael

222
00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:41,236
Speaker 1: Brown walking down the middle of the street, thinks Brown

223
00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:45,556
Speaker 1: matches the description of the suspect and pulls over. Ninety

224
00:12:45,676 --> 00:12:49,756
Speaker 1: seconds later, Brown is dead. The black community in Ferguson

225
00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:53,996
Speaker 1: erupts in protest for weeks. The police counter with armored

226
00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:57,276
Speaker 1: cars and snipers and a small army of officers in combat.

227
00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:01,276
Speaker 1: Year people took sides according to whatever ideology they were

228
00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:04,636
Speaker 1: attached to. Either this was about law and order and

229
00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:07,796
Speaker 1: you were on Darren Wilson's side, or this was about

230
00:13:07,876 --> 00:13:12,276
Speaker 1: police brutality and you were on Michael Brown's side. So

231
00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:16,996
Speaker 1: what happened after Ferguson. Well, the following spring, the Civil

232
00:13:17,076 --> 00:13:20,356
Speaker 1: Rights Division of the Department of Justice issued two reports

233
00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,116
Speaker 1: on the case. The first said, we're not indicting officer

234
00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:27,116
Speaker 1: Darren Wilson. What he did doesn't meet the federal legal

235
00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:31,556
Speaker 1: standard for police misconduct. The second federal report came out

236
00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:34,276
Speaker 1: the same day. It was what's called a patterns and

237
00:13:34,476 --> 00:13:38,996
Speaker 1: practices investigation. It was a broader look at policing in Ferguson.

238
00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:42,796
Speaker 1: One of the principal authors of the second report was

239
00:13:42,796 --> 00:13:44,476
Speaker 1: a lawyer named Cherog Baines.

240
00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:47,036
Speaker 7: I mean What we found was something I hadn't seen

241
00:13:47,076 --> 00:13:50,396
Speaker 7: in other departments, but I've since learned exists in many

242
00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:53,236
Speaker 7: places in America, which is a police department and actually

243
00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:57,316
Speaker 7: an entire criminal justice architecture that existed and operated to

244
00:13:57,436 --> 00:14:02,036
Speaker 7: extract wealth from the community, and specifically from the black

245
00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:03,356
Speaker 7: community in Ferguson.

246
00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:06,516
Speaker 1: Baines and his team arrived in Ferguson two days after

247
00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:09,676
Speaker 1: Michael Brown was killed. They stayed there on and off

248
00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:13,116
Speaker 1: for five months. What they found was that Ferguson was

249
00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:16,636
Speaker 1: using its police department to fund the city's budget, and.

250
00:14:16,996 --> 00:14:20,196
Speaker 7: That colored everything that they did know who they arrested,

251
00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:23,956
Speaker 7: who they stopped, who they issued citations to, who got leniency,

252
00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:28,516
Speaker 7: and who was met without any in the court, who

253
00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:31,196
Speaker 7: was willing to cooperate with law enforcement. There are a

254
00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:34,116
Speaker 7: number of emails from the finance director to the police

255
00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:36,836
Speaker 7: chief asking him if you can raise revenues, often by

256
00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:41,956
Speaker 7: very specific numbers. There's one saying, can you increase what

257
00:14:42,076 --> 00:14:43,916
Speaker 7: the last increase you were able to do was seven

258
00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:46,316
Speaker 7: point five percent over last year's revenues. Can you bring

259
00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:48,356
Speaker 7: that up to ten percent this year? Can we get

260
00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,836
Speaker 7: over a million in revenues this year? And fines and fees.

261
00:14:51,156 --> 00:14:53,716
Speaker 7: There's even an email where the finance director is suggesting

262
00:14:53,756 --> 00:14:57,316
Speaker 7: to the police chief a particular enforcement strategy, suggesting that

263
00:14:57,356 --> 00:14:59,996
Speaker 7: he deploy a certain number of overtime officers for traffic

264
00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:02,596
Speaker 7: enforcement and a certain part of the city in order

265
00:15:02,676 --> 00:15:05,036
Speaker 7: to and this is a quote, fill the revenue pipeline.

266
00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:07,956
Speaker 7: It's very bizarre for the finance director to be issuing

267
00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:10,556
Speaker 7: any kind of instruction to the police chief on how

268
00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:15,236
Speaker 7: to deploy patrol officers. But that's a window into what

269
00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:17,196
Speaker 7: the priority was and what they decided to use their

270
00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:17,876
Speaker 7: police force for.

271
00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:21,836
Speaker 1: Bains and his team found evidence that one time officials

272
00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:24,516
Speaker 1: in Ferguson wanted to get rid of an incompetent judge,

273
00:15:25,156 --> 00:15:27,996
Speaker 1: but the city manager said, we can't get rid of him.

274
00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:32,796
Speaker 1: He's too good at levying fines. Police officers were rewarded

275
00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:36,796
Speaker 1: and promoted for their productivity, meaning how many tickets they issued,

276
00:15:37,316 --> 00:15:39,876
Speaker 1: so of course they issued a lot of tickets. Any

277
00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:42,796
Speaker 1: offense would do. Bains remembers one case of a man

278
00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:45,436
Speaker 1: who was sitting in his car at a playground cooling

279
00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:49,436
Speaker 1: off after playing basketball. An officer drove up, blocked the

280
00:15:49,516 --> 00:15:51,836
Speaker 1: man's car and demanded to see an ID.

281
00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:54,516
Speaker 7: I think he said something to the effect of like,

282
00:15:54,556 --> 00:15:56,236
Speaker 7: there are kids here and you're at the park. What

283
00:15:56,276 --> 00:15:58,516
Speaker 7: are You're a palot pedophile. I don't know the exact words,

284
00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:00,476
Speaker 7: but that would it's my sense of what happened from

285
00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:04,476
Speaker 7: talking to the gentleman, and the officer then orders him

286
00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:09,596
Speaker 7: out of the car, and the guy says, well, I'm

287
00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:10,196
Speaker 7: not doing anything.

288
00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:11,476
Speaker 5: I mean, I have constitutional rights.

289
00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:14,476
Speaker 7: I'm just sitting here, just playing ball, and the officer

290
00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:18,956
Speaker 7: then actually pulls his gun on the guy and you know,

291
00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:21,556
Speaker 7: threatening him and insisting that he got out of the car.

292
00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:25,116
Speaker 7: The way the incident ends is that the officer writes

293
00:16:25,156 --> 00:16:29,116
Speaker 7: him up for eight different tickets, including not having a

294
00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:31,116
Speaker 7: seat belt on he was sitting in his car at

295
00:16:31,156 --> 00:16:34,436
Speaker 7: the park, not having a license, and also having a

296
00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:36,996
Speaker 7: suspended license. He managed to issue both.

297
00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:41,396
Speaker 1: Charges eight tickets. One of them was for using a

298
00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:44,436
Speaker 1: false name because the guy used his nickname like Tom

299
00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:49,596
Speaker 1: instead of Thomas. If you read the two Department of

300
00:16:49,796 --> 00:16:53,436
Speaker 1: Justice reports together, what you realize is that after Brown's death,

301
00:16:53,996 --> 00:16:58,476
Speaker 1: both sides in the debate were wrong. One side said

302
00:16:59,036 --> 00:17:03,236
Speaker 1: Darren Wilson shot and killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood. Remember,

303
00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:05,036
Speaker 1: there was a big to do about the fact that

304
00:17:05,196 --> 00:17:07,316
Speaker 1: Michael Brown was supposed to have put his hands up

305
00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:08,756
Speaker 1: and said, don't shoot.

306
00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:12,076
Speaker 7: The facts of this case, when you look at what

307
00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:14,436
Speaker 7: we found on the criminal side with the justice partman

308
00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:17,436
Speaker 7: found on the criminal side were that Michael Brown didn't

309
00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:19,436
Speaker 7: have his hands up and he wasn't surrendering when he

310
00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:21,516
Speaker 7: was shot. But that's what people thought, and that's a

311
00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:22,916
Speaker 7: narrative that quickly developed.

312
00:17:23,236 --> 00:17:27,316
Speaker 1: The DOJ concluded after reviewing forensic evidence that at one

313
00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:30,596
Speaker 1: point Michael Brown reached into Wilson's open car window and

314
00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:34,836
Speaker 1: wrestled with him over his gun. For goodness sake, if

315
00:17:34,916 --> 00:17:36,996
Speaker 1: you think this is a case about a rogue cop,

316
00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:40,796
Speaker 1: you missed the point. The shooting of Michael Brown is

317
00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:45,156
Speaker 1: not about a homicidal cop. It's about decades of predatory policing,

318
00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:48,956
Speaker 1: about the consequences of having an entire law enforcement system

319
00:17:49,356 --> 00:17:54,796
Speaker 1: organized around looting the black community. Meanwhile, the other side

320
00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:59,116
Speaker 1: sees that Wilson is not facing federal charges and says, see,

321
00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:02,676
Speaker 1: we were right. The police officer didn't do anything wrong.

322
00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:05,756
Speaker 1: This case is about a breakdown in respect for law

323
00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:11,156
Speaker 1: and order. But that completely misses the point. Yes, Michael

324
00:18:11,196 --> 00:18:13,716
Speaker 1: Brown was a kid who did not view police power

325
00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:17,316
Speaker 1: as legitimate. But that's because he lived in a town

326
00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:19,796
Speaker 1: where police power was not legitimate.

327
00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:27,716
Speaker 7: And so for me, it's very important that people read

328
00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:30,956
Speaker 7: both reports. I've spoken on this topic a number of times,

329
00:18:30,996 --> 00:18:34,036
Speaker 7: and I'm often speaking to a group that's only read

330
00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:37,756
Speaker 7: one report, or sometimes that has read both reports, or

331
00:18:37,836 --> 00:18:40,236
Speaker 7: read some parts of both reports but only believes one.

332
00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:42,916
Speaker 7: And I have to say, it was the same Justice

333
00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:45,916
Speaker 7: department that did both reports. There wasn't an agenda here

334
00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:49,916
Speaker 7: to bury the truth. It was a very thorough investigation

335
00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:53,596
Speaker 7: on both sides. And it's rare to find people who

336
00:18:54,076 --> 00:18:56,476
Speaker 7: read both and believe both and understand how they connect.

337
00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:01,476
Speaker 1: It's rare to find people who read both and believe

338
00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:06,196
Speaker 1: both and understand how they connect. It's rare to find

339
00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:10,236
Speaker 1: people without disordered attachments when it comes to police shootings.

340
00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:16,676
Speaker 1: So Angel Navarro, the case Doctor Ron brought up unexpectedly,

341
00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:20,756
Speaker 1: and that I have to admit left me shaken. Let's

342
00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:26,476
Speaker 1: start with a clean slate. The shooting of Angel Navarro

343
00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:28,836
Speaker 1: was captured by the dash cam video of one of

344
00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:31,956
Speaker 1: the officers involved in the incident. You cannot find it

345
00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:35,516
Speaker 1: on the internet. It was not released publicly for the

346
00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,516
Speaker 1: longest time. The New Mexico police wouldn't even give it

347
00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:43,756
Speaker 1: to the Navarro family, which made Felipe Navarro suspicious. He

348
00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:47,716
Speaker 1: and his parents filed a lawsuit, hired two lawyers on contingency,

349
00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:54,716
Speaker 1: Erica Anderson and Lauren Oliveros. My researcher, Camille Baptista, went

350
00:19:54,796 --> 00:19:58,076
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles to talk to Felipe. They sat together

351
00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:00,956
Speaker 1: for a couple of hours. He talked about how draining

352
00:20:01,036 --> 00:20:04,796
Speaker 1: the case was, depositions, motions, the whole thing went on

353
00:20:04,956 --> 00:20:07,916
Speaker 1: for two and a half years. His lawyers tried to

354
00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:08,596
Speaker 1: warn him.

355
00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:15,396
Speaker 2: Because it was recorded on video the incident, and because

356
00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:19,116
Speaker 2: of a certain evidence that was, you know there. I

357
00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:21,716
Speaker 2: thought it was sort of cut and dry as to

358
00:20:22,116 --> 00:20:25,756
Speaker 2: what the tape showed and what they were arguing and

359
00:20:25,876 --> 00:20:29,276
Speaker 2: what we were arguing. So in my mind that's where

360
00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:32,516
Speaker 2: I said. I like then I was naive and thinking like, oh, well,

361
00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:35,076
Speaker 2: like the tape's there, like this is evidence. It's like

362
00:20:35,156 --> 00:20:39,636
Speaker 2: the camera doesn't lie, you know. But you know, I

363
00:20:40,396 --> 00:20:45,796
Speaker 2: remember we would have talks about like like how lawsuits work.

364
00:20:46,396 --> 00:20:48,316
Speaker 2: In my mind, I was like, I don't know how

365
00:20:48,316 --> 00:20:55,036
Speaker 2: you could possibly justify three people shooting in an unarmed person,

366
00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:59,596
Speaker 2: one person, twenty seven times. When did you first see

367
00:20:59,676 --> 00:21:02,636
Speaker 2: the video? You described that you saw the video. We

368
00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:06,556
Speaker 2: did not get the video for I think like six months.

369
00:21:07,076 --> 00:21:09,636
Speaker 2: It was not an easy thing to get. You saw it,

370
00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:13,076
Speaker 2: you had like strong feelings about what it showed. If

371
00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:16,636
Speaker 2: I could, you know, put myself in their shoes and

372
00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:19,356
Speaker 2: vice versa, because I did try to do that and

373
00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:22,516
Speaker 2: sort of okay, let me, I know my brother, I

374
00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:26,036
Speaker 2: know him, you know enough to know that what I

375
00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:28,356
Speaker 2: saw on the video was kind of odd behavior from him.

376
00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:30,916
Speaker 2: It seemed a little erratic.

377
00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:36,796
Speaker 3: This was a challenging one.

378
00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:40,556
Speaker 1: Ron Martinelli was retained as an expert witness by the

379
00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:43,596
Speaker 1: new Mexico Attorney General on behalf of the state police.

380
00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:45,716
Speaker 1: He watched the tape as well.

381
00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:49,076
Speaker 3: What was the challenge for me as a criminologist using

382
00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:52,876
Speaker 3: our audio videologist and breaking it down and showing the

383
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,396
Speaker 3: judge that, hey, this is what it was about. That

384
00:21:55,596 --> 00:21:56,676
Speaker 3: judge had no idea.

385
00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:02,236
Speaker 1: Martinelli had a phrase he kept saying to me, every

386
00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:05,356
Speaker 1: case is different, which I began to realize was his

387
00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:08,956
Speaker 1: operating principle, kind of like the injunction of the Jesuits

388
00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,516
Speaker 1: to descend into the particular you have to assume that

389
00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,636
Speaker 1: the specifics, the details of the case in question matter.

390
00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,796
Speaker 1: His task was to work backwards from the shooting, reconstructing

391
00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:23,996
Speaker 1: the hours before the New Mexico police confronted Angel Navarro

392
00:22:24,476 --> 00:22:26,516
Speaker 1: until he had a complete narrative of that day.

393
00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:30,836
Speaker 6: Emergency likes your reporter, sling harper you.

394
00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:37,276
Speaker 1: This is what he believes Angel Navarro did.

395
00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:41,316
Speaker 3: He drops his girlfriend off and he's in a parking

396
00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:47,676
Speaker 3: lot and he gets out of the car and he confronts, uh,

397
00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:51,716
Speaker 3: just some citizen on the street, and I'm giving you

398
00:22:51,796 --> 00:22:56,276
Speaker 3: the synopsized version, and he slices him with a knife.

399
00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:01,076
Speaker 3: With the knife, yes, he's got me in the hand

400
00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:03,676
Speaker 3: with it, and then he leaves.

401
00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,436
Speaker 7: He took off heading shouts on Sixth Street.

402
00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:10,036
Speaker 1: It looks like Angel Navarro is still the man's.

403
00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:14,636
Speaker 3: Car, and of course the man calls the police. They

404
00:23:14,716 --> 00:23:16,436
Speaker 3: have a good description of the vehicle, they have a

405
00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:20,916
Speaker 3: license plate. There is a BOLO put out a beyond

406
00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:24,836
Speaker 3: the lookout for and they end up spotting this vehicle

407
00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:31,516
Speaker 3: on State Highway and so unmarked units get behind him

408
00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:35,356
Speaker 3: initially because they just happen to see him, and they

409
00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:38,876
Speaker 3: start following him, and then a march unit comes up

410
00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:42,676
Speaker 3: and they try to pull him over, and mister Navarro

411
00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:46,556
Speaker 3: takes off, but he doesn't take off at a really

412
00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:50,116
Speaker 3: really fast speed because the speed limit in New Mexico,

413
00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:52,516
Speaker 3: I think on this highway went between seventy five and

414
00:23:52,636 --> 00:23:55,196
Speaker 3: eighty and he was only going about eighty six miles

415
00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,956
Speaker 3: an hour, So he's clearly not trying to elude the officers.

416
00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:01,396
Speaker 3: He's just driving.

417
00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:03,676
Speaker 8: Goal.

418
00:24:04,196 --> 00:24:06,276
Speaker 3: He ends up stopping in the middle of the highway

419
00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:09,436
Speaker 3: and they're waiting for him, and they're trying to give

420
00:24:09,476 --> 00:24:11,916
Speaker 3: him some instructions to do what we refer to as

421
00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:16,436
Speaker 3: a felony car stop, and that doesn't work, and he

422
00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:19,916
Speaker 3: takes off again, but he's going slower and everybody's trying

423
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:21,396
Speaker 3: to figure out what is this guy going to do?

424
00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:22,436
Speaker 6: What's he going to do?

425
00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:27,436
Speaker 1: Navarro drives on for another twelve miles, then he stops

426
00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:30,516
Speaker 1: in the middle of the highway a second time. The

427
00:24:30,636 --> 00:24:33,356
Speaker 1: officers pull up behind him. He sits in his car

428
00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:35,156
Speaker 1: for three minutes talking on the phone.

429
00:24:36,396 --> 00:24:39,116
Speaker 6: They lost He's on the phone with who with the police?

430
00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:41,556
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, he calls a dispatcher. He's on the

431
00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:46,196
Speaker 3: phone with the police, right, and I'm armed and I'm

432
00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:51,436
Speaker 3: a bad guy. And so when he finally they tell

433
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:53,316
Speaker 3: him to get out of the car, he gets out

434
00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:57,396
Speaker 3: of the car and then he faces them and they're

435
00:24:57,476 --> 00:25:00,236
Speaker 3: giving him instructions to step away from the vehicle, keep

436
00:25:00,276 --> 00:25:03,556
Speaker 3: your hands up, do this. He turned sideways, he goes

437
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:05,916
Speaker 3: into his pocket. They're screaming at him, don't do that,

438
00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:06,756
Speaker 3: don't do that.

439
00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:10,956
Speaker 1: The whole thing is weird, Starting right back with Navarro's

440
00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:12,876
Speaker 1: attack on a stranger in the parking lot.

441
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:16,796
Speaker 3: Why commit that crime? Why just pick an individual and

442
00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:19,156
Speaker 3: slice him for no reason at all. He hadn't done

443
00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:23,836
Speaker 3: anything to you. That was to get that person to

444
00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:27,276
Speaker 3: call the police with a crime of violence.

445
00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:32,036
Speaker 1: Okay, he's committed two felonies at that point, but he

446
00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:34,676
Speaker 1: seems to want the police around him, so.

447
00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:37,956
Speaker 3: He gets on the phone and tells him, Okay, listen,

448
00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:39,596
Speaker 3: I'm armed and not only have a knife, but I

449
00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:42,236
Speaker 3: have a gun, and i'm this and i'm that. So

450
00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:46,836
Speaker 3: the question would be, why would you do that? Because

451
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:51,156
Speaker 3: he is choreographing an eventual death act.

452
00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:55,596
Speaker 1: If you talk to enough people in law enforcement, you'll

453
00:25:55,676 --> 00:26:00,036
Speaker 1: hear stories like this. Joni Johnston, a forensic psychologist who

454
00:26:00,076 --> 00:26:03,236
Speaker 1: works with Martinelli, told me about a case outside San Diego,

455
00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:05,876
Speaker 1: where a fifteen year old boy called nine one one

456
00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:08,996
Speaker 1: from a school parking lot. He pointed what turned out

457
00:26:08,996 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 1: to be a bb gun at police. When the police

458
00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:14,636
Speaker 1: told him to drop the weapon, he just kept walking

459
00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,636
Speaker 1: towards them until they had no choice but to shoot.

460
00:26:18,676 --> 00:26:22,516
Speaker 1: They later found a suicide note on him. Martinelli thinks

461
00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:25,956
Speaker 1: Angel Navarro's case follows the same pattern, like when he

462
00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:27,396
Speaker 1: stops on the highway.

463
00:26:27,516 --> 00:26:30,356
Speaker 3: He's trying to see how many police officers are there.

464
00:26:30,676 --> 00:26:33,996
Speaker 3: That's not enough police officers, so he leaves again, OK

465
00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:37,356
Speaker 3: I need more police officers, and this is referred to

466
00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:46,036
Speaker 3: as guaranteeing the certainty of lothality. More police officers bring

467
00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:51,076
Speaker 3: more guns. More guns mean more bullets and more opportunities

468
00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 3: to shoot at him where he would be killed instead

469
00:26:55,476 --> 00:27:00,796
Speaker 3: of wounded. But the police don't have the context. And

470
00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:04,436
Speaker 3: then when they first encounter mister Navarro, it's a classic Okay, well,

471
00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:06,356
Speaker 3: we're just after a guy that stabs somebody.

472
00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:07,556
Speaker 6: That's all they think this is.

473
00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:10,116
Speaker 3: We're just gonna go get this guy. He's a guy

474
00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:13,396
Speaker 3: that committed assault with a deadly weapon and another guy.

475
00:27:13,956 --> 00:27:16,116
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, he's stopping and they're

476
00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:17,836
Speaker 3: trying to figure out why is this guy stopping?

477
00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:23,156
Speaker 1: You know, Angel Navarro wanted the police to kill him.

478
00:27:31,476 --> 00:27:35,796
Speaker 3: Okay, And I'm going to break it down for you frantically.

479
00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:36,156
Speaker 5: Okay.

480
00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:40,236
Speaker 1: Ron Martin Ellie is sitting at his desk. I'm next

481
00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:42,676
Speaker 1: to him. He asked me if I wanted to see

482
00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:46,076
Speaker 1: the tape. I said yes. I didn't ask him how

483
00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:49,396
Speaker 1: many times he's watched it frame by frame. Maybe you

484
00:27:49,476 --> 00:28:14,036
Speaker 1: get numb to it after a while. The doors open.

485
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:15,836
Speaker 5: He's a mood hawan, Okay.

486
00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:19,596
Speaker 3: So the collective knowledge of the officers is he's already

487
00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:22,556
Speaker 3: been involved in one crime of violence, and he's got

488
00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:25,836
Speaker 3: a gun. And officers are trained that eighty five percent

489
00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,116
Speaker 3: of all the weapons that are found on an individual

490
00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:31,916
Speaker 3: concealed are found on the waistband okay, or in the pockets.

491
00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:34,796
Speaker 3: So they've told him to put his hands up and

492
00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:37,396
Speaker 3: face the other way. He's not doing that. He's looking

493
00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,796
Speaker 3: directly at them. He's trying to see, Okay, where is everybody?

494
00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:43,836
Speaker 3: Have they got their guns out? Look? You got to

495
00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:47,396
Speaker 3: watch his right hand. Okay. His right hand is already

496
00:28:47,516 --> 00:28:48,756
Speaker 3: in his pocket.

497
00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:51,636
Speaker 1: Just getting out of the car, right hand in his pocket.

498
00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:56,756
Speaker 3: He turns a bladed side away from the officer, so

499
00:28:56,876 --> 00:29:00,196
Speaker 3: they can't see his right hand. He's exposed to the

500
00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:03,156
Speaker 3: left side of his body. He's not putting his hands up.

501
00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:13,916
Speaker 3: He's moving to the waistband where officers are trained that

502
00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:15,356
Speaker 3: people have concealed weapons.

503
00:29:16,396 --> 00:29:18,876
Speaker 1: The police keep shouting for Navarre to put his hands

504
00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:22,156
Speaker 1: in the air, but he doesn't. He turns sideways and

505
00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:24,876
Speaker 1: he reaches his hand into the pocket that's hidden from

506
00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:25,796
Speaker 1: the police officers.

507
00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:33,156
Speaker 3: See what he's doing here, He's getting them all jacked up, right,

508
00:29:33,236 --> 00:29:35,476
Speaker 3: He's already got that cell phone out he was in

509
00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:38,756
Speaker 3: his pocket. Now he's put it up into his waistband

510
00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:42,676
Speaker 3: underneath his shirt. Okay, so here we go. So watch

511
00:29:45,076 --> 00:29:55,676
Speaker 3: this goes down super quick. See how he goes with

512
00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:58,756
Speaker 3: both hands. Do you see he's got both hands?

513
00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:00,996
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And he starts to bring it up, bring

514
00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:01,716
Speaker 1: his cell phone up.

515
00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:03,916
Speaker 3: We don't know that, what do we think?

516
00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:06,996
Speaker 1: And he's turning towards the officers and starting to run

517
00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 1: towards them.

518
00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:11,236
Speaker 3: That's exactly right fast, by the way. Okay, so and

519
00:30:11,356 --> 00:30:14,916
Speaker 3: then you'll hear that first shot. Okay, so he's already

520
00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:18,396
Speaker 3: hit and he's hit abdominally.

521
00:30:21,276 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 1: So now he's on the ground. In Martinelli's analysis, virtually

522
00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:33,156
Speaker 1: everything Navarro did was premeditated, like he had a master plan.

523
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:36,396
Speaker 1: He slashes the person in the parking lot to alert

524
00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:38,876
Speaker 1: the police. Then he stops on the highway to make

525
00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:41,956
Speaker 1: sure there were enough police there to kill him. Martinelli

526
00:30:42,036 --> 00:30:45,556
Speaker 1: put himself inside Navarro's head. It was hard to believe

527
00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:48,796
Speaker 1: both that Martinelli could read the mind of someone he

528
00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:51,796
Speaker 1: had never met, and that Navarro could have planned out

529
00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:55,556
Speaker 1: this elaborate deception, that he could have been so systematic

530
00:30:56,036 --> 00:31:00,276
Speaker 1: and logical about his own death. I can understand why.

531
00:31:00,596 --> 00:31:03,356
Speaker 1: To the Navarro's the whole thing must have seemed so

532
00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:08,796
Speaker 1: baffling and horrifying. But then there's the tape, the part

533
00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,956
Speaker 1: where Angel Navarro gets out of the car. There are

534
00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:15,316
Speaker 1: police officers pointing their guns at him, and what does

535
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,996
Speaker 1: he do. You can see him. He pretends like his

536
00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:22,076
Speaker 1: cell phone is a gun. That's the part you can't

537
00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,836
Speaker 1: tell from just listening. He's acting it out. Then he

538
00:31:25,996 --> 00:31:29,436
Speaker 1: runs at the police officers, right at them. They have

539
00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:33,756
Speaker 1: their guns drawn. He violates every human instinct.

540
00:31:34,236 --> 00:31:35,276
Speaker 3: Okay, watch what he does.

541
00:31:35,356 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 1: Now he's on the ground. He's been shot.

542
00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:40,916
Speaker 3: He's been shot. He actually was only shot in the

543
00:31:41,076 --> 00:31:44,836
Speaker 3: arm and shot in the stomach. Okay, he says, no

544
00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:49,676
Speaker 3: mortal wounds, and he knows he's not dead, but he

545
00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:53,236
Speaker 3: wants to be dead. See what he does. Look how

546
00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:56,716
Speaker 3: quickly he gets up, and where's his hand back down

547
00:31:56,756 --> 00:32:01,276
Speaker 3: to the waistband. Okay, so he is going to You'll

548
00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:04,116
Speaker 3: see him start to push that thing out again and

549
00:32:04,156 --> 00:32:05,196
Speaker 3: they're going, oh shit.

550
00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:11,396
Speaker 1: So he's still on the ground, but he's he is lifted.

551
00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:13,316
Speaker 3: Up his head very quick Well, he's lift up his body,

552
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,396
Speaker 3: his body very quickly. But look at where his hand is.

553
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:19,716
Speaker 3: He's not in a bracing position to stand up. He's

554
00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:21,356
Speaker 3: into the waistband.

555
00:32:22,076 --> 00:32:26,076
Speaker 1: He doesn't stay down, he doesn't lie still, he doesn't

556
00:32:26,156 --> 00:32:28,756
Speaker 1: put his hand out to lift himself up to say

557
00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:32,676
Speaker 1: something or surrender. He moves his hand to his waistband

558
00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:35,836
Speaker 1: as if he's reaching for a gun again.

559
00:32:36,756 --> 00:32:48,316
Speaker 3: To them, it's re emphasizing holy crime, Andy, no, and

560
00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:49,636
Speaker 3: now he's dead, and now he's dead.

561
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:58,436
Speaker 1: The term of art in law enforcement circles for what

562
00:32:58,596 --> 00:33:04,916
Speaker 1: happened to Angel Navarro is suicide by cop SPC. Ten percent,

563
00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:09,556
Speaker 1: maybe more of police shootings are SPC. People don't like

564
00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:12,436
Speaker 1: to talk about suicide by cop Part of that is

565
00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:15,836
Speaker 1: because we don't like to talk about suicide period, and

566
00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:19,356
Speaker 1: part is that this particular variant of suicide doesn't fit

567
00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:24,796
Speaker 1: into our existing categories of police shootings. The Navarros sued

568
00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:28,276
Speaker 1: the state of New Mexico for excessive force because they

569
00:33:28,316 --> 00:33:32,276
Speaker 1: didn't know what happened. Then they found out after two

570
00:33:32,356 --> 00:33:36,556
Speaker 1: and a half years the case was dismissed, perhaps not surprisingly,

571
00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:39,716
Speaker 1: but that doesn't make it easier, does it.

572
00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:49,036
Speaker 2: After we got the tape and saw what happened, it

573
00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:53,996
Speaker 2: was kind of like we knew, you know, it was like, well,

574
00:33:54,116 --> 00:33:55,836
Speaker 2: we know they're not going to get in trouble for it,

575
00:33:56,516 --> 00:34:01,836
Speaker 2: and we know that he's dead and nothing's going to

576
00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:05,996
Speaker 2: bring him back. So the only option we have for

577
00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:10,076
Speaker 2: any sort of justice or yeah, like justice to have

578
00:34:10,236 --> 00:34:13,516
Speaker 2: that sense of like, okay, at least they were like

579
00:34:13,596 --> 00:34:16,556
Speaker 2: suffered consequences in some way, was to sue them financially

580
00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:18,676
Speaker 2: and sue them for a lot of money.

581
00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:22,796
Speaker 1: A death in the family is always hard, but this

582
00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:26,476
Speaker 1: Felippe now had to square the picture of his brother

583
00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:29,676
Speaker 1: being painted by the other side with the angel he knew.

584
00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:31,916
Speaker 2: He wasn't scared to go on the monkey bars and

585
00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:34,396
Speaker 2: fall and break his arm or you know, go and

586
00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:36,996
Speaker 2: run and play and get dirty in the mud. And so,

587
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:40,916
Speaker 2: you know, there were things, you know that I admired

588
00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:42,956
Speaker 2: in my brother, as far as his sort of ability

589
00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:47,116
Speaker 2: to be to not care so much about what people thought,

590
00:34:47,196 --> 00:34:51,196
Speaker 2: and to be who he was and be okay with

591
00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:54,916
Speaker 2: who he was, and be outgoing and be funny and

592
00:34:55,996 --> 00:34:59,116
Speaker 2: and you know, make jokes or like, wasn't afraid to

593
00:34:59,236 --> 00:35:02,036
Speaker 2: look stupid or embarrass himself or things that, like I

594
00:35:02,356 --> 00:35:06,716
Speaker 2: just never was like that. I was always quite the opposite.

595
00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:11,316
Speaker 1: Philippe Navarro was sitting on his couch with a throw

596
00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:17,156
Speaker 1: pillow across his lap, picking at a seam, not angry, thoughtful.

597
00:35:18,596 --> 00:35:20,836
Speaker 2: A big thing I had to reconcile with after he

598
00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:24,916
Speaker 2: passed was like and finding out everything I did find

599
00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:28,236
Speaker 2: out as far as like his mental health and sort

600
00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:31,036
Speaker 2: of his therapy sessions, because they bring out all the information,

601
00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:35,036
Speaker 2: like documents and stuff like that, and and you know,

602
00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 2: seeing that he had told his therapist that he was

603
00:35:37,836 --> 00:35:41,596
Speaker 2: suicidal at points, or he felt that he couldn't talk

604
00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:45,396
Speaker 2: to his family, or he felt alone, or he felt depressed,

605
00:35:45,556 --> 00:35:48,436
Speaker 2: or you know, he was drinking. I think he said

606
00:35:48,476 --> 00:35:50,676
Speaker 2: a fifth of whiskey or something a day, you know,

607
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:54,076
Speaker 2: things that he told that none of us knew. And

608
00:35:56,316 --> 00:35:58,796
Speaker 2: he when I saw him, he seemed normal, you know,

609
00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:02,356
Speaker 2: he didn't nothing struck me as like, oh, I should

610
00:36:02,596 --> 00:36:05,036
Speaker 2: you know, make sure that he's doing okay, or oh

611
00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:06,076
Speaker 2: something seems off.

612
00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:11,356
Speaker 1: That's a lot to discover after your brother gets shot.

613
00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:21,356
Speaker 1: Ron Martinelli kept the video running. There was something else

614
00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:23,996
Speaker 1: he wanted to show me, proof of what he meant

615
00:36:24,036 --> 00:36:26,156
Speaker 1: when he said that every case was different.

616
00:36:26,276 --> 00:36:29,276
Speaker 3: And they need to clear the trunk. I was going

617
00:36:29,316 --> 00:36:29,916
Speaker 3: to clear him.

618
00:36:32,196 --> 00:36:35,676
Speaker 1: The officers run towards the stolen suv. They need to

619
00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:38,676
Speaker 1: find out if there's something else in there, someone who's

620
00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:46,116
Speaker 1: another threat or need of help. Then they go to

621
00:36:46,196 --> 00:36:50,596
Speaker 1: Navarro's body on the ground and see just a cell phone,

622
00:36:50,916 --> 00:36:55,876
Speaker 1: not a gun. Everything has slowed down now. The tape

623
00:36:56,036 --> 00:36:59,596
Speaker 1: keeps running and running until you see the officer who

624
00:36:59,676 --> 00:37:03,036
Speaker 1: discovered the cell phone start to walk in and out

625
00:37:03,196 --> 00:37:06,796
Speaker 1: of the camera frame aimlessly.

626
00:37:07,396 --> 00:37:09,836
Speaker 5: I think this was the guy that he looks shaken,

627
00:37:09,876 --> 00:37:10,316
Speaker 5: but does it?

628
00:37:10,396 --> 00:37:15,276
Speaker 3: He's like, why me?

629
00:37:15,596 --> 00:37:15,956
Speaker 1: Why me?

630
00:37:18,556 --> 00:37:22,796
Speaker 5: Look at leaning up against the car, said down.

631
00:37:22,756 --> 00:37:30,916
Speaker 3: That's what people don't see. Yeah, not moving, you know,

632
00:37:30,956 --> 00:37:36,436
Speaker 3: he's sitting there crying is what he's doing. You know,

633
00:37:36,596 --> 00:37:38,756
Speaker 3: people don't see that. See I see that, you.

634
00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:52,836
Speaker 5: Know, takes up his hat. H that's moving.

635
00:37:55,956 --> 00:37:56,236
Speaker 2: M H.

636
00:38:02,396 --> 00:38:05,476
Speaker 1: I began this three part series on the Jesuits in

637
00:38:05,676 --> 00:38:08,796
Speaker 1: Rome at the Church of the Jesuit learning about the

638
00:38:08,876 --> 00:38:12,836
Speaker 1: tea the founder of the Jesuit Order, Saint Ignatius of Loyola.

639
00:38:13,836 --> 00:38:16,636
Speaker 1: Saint Ignatius faced a version of the same world we

640
00:38:16,756 --> 00:38:22,076
Speaker 1: face today, filled with novel problems and intractable conflict, and

641
00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:26,436
Speaker 1: he gave his followers a set of moral instructions to

642
00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:32,116
Speaker 1: set aside principle, to descend into the particular, to listen closely.

643
00:38:33,356 --> 00:38:36,876
Speaker 1: Why Because only then can you fulfill one of the

644
00:38:36,956 --> 00:38:41,876
Speaker 1: most important human obligations, to offer consolation to those who

645
00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:49,716
Speaker 1: are suffering. The Navarro family went through a brutal two

646
00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:53,236
Speaker 1: year lawsuit to win a financial settlement, but they really

647
00:38:53,276 --> 00:38:56,996
Speaker 1: weren't after money. Angel Navarro did everything he could to

648
00:38:57,076 --> 00:39:00,836
Speaker 1: kill himself, but that's not what he wanted and the

649
00:39:00,956 --> 00:39:03,596
Speaker 1: police officer by the side of the road. Do you

650
00:39:03,676 --> 00:39:06,596
Speaker 1: think he was fine the minute the legal cloud over

651
00:39:06,676 --> 00:39:10,876
Speaker 1: his conduct was lifted. The reason to watch the tape

652
00:39:11,076 --> 00:39:14,716
Speaker 1: is to understand Felipe Navarro and the special pain that

653
00:39:14,836 --> 00:39:17,836
Speaker 1: comes from seeing someone you love turn into someone you

654
00:39:17,916 --> 00:39:22,676
Speaker 1: don't recognize, and to understand Angel Navarro and the kind

655
00:39:22,716 --> 00:39:25,876
Speaker 1: of devastating illness that would lead someone to orchestrate his

656
00:39:25,996 --> 00:39:33,356
Speaker 1: own death. And then you have to watch the tape

657
00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:37,076
Speaker 1: to the end, to the very end, to see a

658
00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:41,996
Speaker 1: police officer slumped against his squad car, shaking with tears,

659
00:39:45,236 --> 00:40:10,476
Speaker 1: one shooting, three victims, all worthy of our consolation. Revisionist

660
00:40:10,596 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 1: History is produced by Mia Label and Jacob Smith with

661
00:40:14,916 --> 00:40:20,276
Speaker 1: Camille Baptista. Our editor is Julia Barton. Flawan Williams is

662
00:40:20,316 --> 00:40:24,756
Speaker 1: our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by

663
00:40:24,836 --> 00:40:30,476
Speaker 1: Luis Skiera. Special thanks to Carl mcgliori, Heather Fein, Maggie Taylor,

664
00:40:30,876 --> 00:40:37,676
Speaker 1: Maya Kanig, and Jacob Weisberg. Revisionist History is brought to

665
00:40:37,716 --> 00:40:52,356
Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. Suicide is a

666
00:40:52,396 --> 00:40:55,436
Speaker 1: difficult topic. It can be hard for people to talk

667
00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:58,636
Speaker 1: about suicide or get help if they're in danger, but

668
00:40:58,716 --> 00:41:02,316
Speaker 1: there are resources available people want to help. The National

669
00:41:02,436 --> 00:41:07,836
Speaker 1: Suicide Prevention Hotline is one excellent resource. It's free, confidential,

670
00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:10,996
Speaker 1: and available twenty four hours a day. The number in

671
00:41:11,076 --> 00:41:14,156
Speaker 1: the US is one eight hundred two seven three eight

672
00:41:14,436 --> 00:41:18,796
Speaker 1: two five five one eight hundred two seven three talk