1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: Bushkin Before we begin, a warning this episode contains material 2 00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:27,116 Speaker 1: that may be upsetting to some listeners. Not long ago, 3 00:00:27,396 --> 00:00:32,636 Speaker 1: I drove from Atlanta, Georgia to Birmingham, Alabama. It's a 4 00:00:32,676 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: straight shot west on I twenty one hundred and fifty 5 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:39,276 Speaker 1: miles of rolling hills and piney woods. I got off 6 00:00:39,316 --> 00:00:42,196 Speaker 1: the freeway on the downtown exit, just before what the 7 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 1: locals call the Malfunction junction, and drove a few blocks 8 00:00:46,076 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 1: south until I came to Kelly Ingram Park, which covers 9 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:52,116 Speaker 1: a full city block right in front of sixteenth Street 10 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: Baptist Church. I wanted to see a statue that stands 11 00:00:55,756 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: in the park, a famous statue. I've always loved statues. 12 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:05,356 Speaker 1: I find them moving. Don't know why. Maybe it's because 13 00:01:05,596 --> 00:01:08,196 Speaker 1: they're a representation of something that we have chosen to 14 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 1: take seriously, to memorialize in a permanent form. With a statue, 15 00:01:14,596 --> 00:01:17,276 Speaker 1: you're saying to the future, this is what I want 16 00:01:17,316 --> 00:01:23,636 Speaker 1: you to remember about my generation. The statue I came 17 00:01:23,676 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: to see is at one end of Kelly Ingram Park. 18 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:30,716 Speaker 1: It's of a police officer, big guy menacing heavy pair 19 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 1: of sunglasses. He is a dog on a leash, A 20 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 1: big german shepherd, and the dog is lunging huge fangs 21 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: bared at a young black boy who's leaning back, hands 22 00:01:41,036 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: to his sides, almost like he's sacrificing himself. It's called 23 00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: foot Soldier. It looks simple, but that statue is not 24 00:01:50,476 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 1: what you think. Trust me. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 25 00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:02,116 Speaker 1: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 26 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 1: and Misunderstood. This episode is a second in what are 27 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:10,596 Speaker 1: going to be a few episodes this season on race 28 00:02:10,636 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: and civil rights. On race in the United States, I'm 29 00:02:18,996 --> 00:02:22,996 Speaker 1: an outsider. I'm Canadian. My family is half West Indian, 30 00:02:23,156 --> 00:02:25,796 Speaker 1: which is a very different cultural experience than being an 31 00:02:25,796 --> 00:02:29,236 Speaker 1: African American. My mom had a friend, a Jamaican, who 32 00:02:29,236 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 1: went down to Georgia once in the nineteen seventies. When 33 00:02:32,036 --> 00:02:34,756 Speaker 1: she came back, she said, the racism there cut like 34 00:02:34,796 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 1: a knife. I couldn't have been more than eight or nine, 35 00:02:38,556 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 1: and that phrase startled me. It seems so visceral. But 36 00:02:42,396 --> 00:02:44,876 Speaker 1: then I moved to the US as an adult, and 37 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:47,396 Speaker 1: it seemed like the way race was discussed didn't cut 38 00:02:47,436 --> 00:02:54,436 Speaker 1: like a knife at all. What I saw around race 39 00:02:54,436 --> 00:02:58,956 Speaker 1: in the United States was evasion and euphemism. The subject 40 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: of my last episode was the Brown Decision. For half 41 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 1: a century, the integration story has been told with all 42 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:09,836 Speaker 1: the suffering taken out. Why is it really necessary that 43 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 1: every grand civil rights narrative be turned into a fairy tale? 44 00:03:14,076 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: Which brings me to kelly Ingram Park and its statue 45 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 1: of the police officer and the dog and the boy. 46 00:03:21,476 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 1: There's a nice and tidy story you can tell about 47 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:30,756 Speaker 1: that statue, but the real story is much different. Last 48 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: summer I got a call from a man who was 49 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 1: friends with the widow of the police officer depicted in 50 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 1: that statue. I'd written about the officer and the dog 51 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,196 Speaker 1: in my book David and Goliath, but she wanted to 52 00:03:41,236 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: tell me the rest of the story, so I met 53 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: with her. Then I went back to Birmingham a second 54 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:48,956 Speaker 1: time to look for the boy in the statue, and 55 00:03:48,996 --> 00:03:52,756 Speaker 1: then a third time to Tuskegee, two hours south of Birmingham. 56 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 1: And there, on a long, lazy afternoon, I sat in 57 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 1: the town museum with an artist named Ronald McDowell. 58 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:04,036 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll cool Jane Me and James Brown. 59 00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:10,996 Speaker 1: And Ronald McDowell is an extraordinary man. Spidery and fine featured. 60 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:14,236 Speaker 1: He showed me his portfolio and told me in his 61 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:18,116 Speaker 1: urgent confessional whisper about how he was once walking down 62 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:21,956 Speaker 1: Sunset Boulevard years ago and ran into Louis Armstrong's nephew 63 00:04:22,316 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: who took him to see Michael Jackson, who wanted McDowell 64 00:04:25,276 --> 00:04:27,916 Speaker 1: to teach him art, which led in turn to McDowell 65 00:04:27,956 --> 00:04:29,436 Speaker 1: helping out on the album Thriller. 66 00:04:29,876 --> 00:04:31,956 Speaker 2: Yeah. I did the sketches for Michael Thriller. 67 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 68 00:04:32,996 --> 00:04:35,916 Speaker 2: I was trying to make him into Black Superman. And 69 00:04:35,996 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 2: on the back of this piece of paper is it 70 00:04:37,876 --> 00:04:40,916 Speaker 2: drawing Michael da for me? When we were working on Trump. 71 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 2: That's Michael's art work one. He did several pieces for him. 72 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 1: Richard Arrington, who was the first black mare of Birmingham, 73 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:54,956 Speaker 1: used to call Ron McDowell Mack, which suits him perfectly. 74 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 1: He has an air of mischief about him, which we'll 75 00:04:58,036 --> 00:04:58,356 Speaker 1: get to. 76 00:04:59,636 --> 00:05:03,836 Speaker 2: That Pictures of Man Johnny Cochrane Spy Lean Natalie Cole 77 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:06,796 Speaker 2: that's in the state capital, the first African American painting 78 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 2: hanging in the state of Alabama to Bosa Parks. Governor 79 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 2: Seglement commission me to do that. 80 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:15,636 Speaker 1: Mack did the statue in Kelly Ingram Park. He's the 81 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 1: one responsible. Birmingham is a strange and beautiful place. It 82 00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: was a steel town like Pittsburgh was, and at the 83 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 1: height of the steel industry, there was a lot of 84 00:05:30,836 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 1: money there. There's an enormous hill on the south side 85 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 1: of town, Mountain Brook, with a gorgeous country club and 86 00:05:37,316 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: graceful pre war homes. That's the wealthy white part of Birmingham. 87 00:05:42,516 --> 00:05:45,636 Speaker 1: Down the hill is the other Birmingham, where blacks and 88 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: whites lived in uneasy proximity. They used to call Birmingham 89 00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 1: the Johannesburg of the South, or Bombingham, because bombs were 90 00:05:54,596 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: a weapon of choice for white supremacists who wanted to 91 00:05:57,036 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 1: keep black people in their place. There's an old joke 92 00:06:00,796 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: from that period that tells you all you really need 93 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 1: to know. A black man in Chicago wakes up one 94 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:09,036 Speaker 1: morning and tells his wife that Jesus had come to 95 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 1: him in a dream and told him to go to Birmingham. 96 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 1: His wife is horrified. Did Jesus say he'd go with you? 97 00:06:16,476 --> 00:06:22,396 Speaker 1: The husband replies, he said, it go as far as Memphis. 98 00:06:23,556 --> 00:06:26,116 Speaker 1: Birmingham was where Martin Luther King staged one of the 99 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: most dramatic protests of the civil rights movement, and King 100 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:33,796 Speaker 1: chose Birmingham for a good reason. He wanted to strike 101 00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 1: at the symbol of racial oppression, to get ordinary Americans 102 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 1: to understand just how bad things were for black people 103 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 1: in the South. So through the long spring of nineteen 104 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:47,796 Speaker 1: sixty three, King and his people organized sit ins to 105 00:06:47,876 --> 00:06:53,476 Speaker 1: protest segregation, then boycott's, then marches. They called it Project 106 00:06:53,636 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: C for Confrontation. They were trying to provoke the Birmingham 107 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: Chief of Police, a trogolite named Bull Connor, into doing 108 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 1: something so outrageous that it would turn the tide of 109 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 1: public opinion in their favor. And that's exactly what happened. 110 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: May third, nineteen sixty three. King's people start at sixteenth 111 00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:23,156 Speaker 1: Street Baptist Church, right next to kelly Ingram Park. They 112 00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 1: come out in waves, marching alongside the park and then 113 00:07:26,356 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 1: continuing on through downtown Birmingham. There are huge crowds, tons 114 00:07:30,876 --> 00:07:34,436 Speaker 1: of police in the middle of everything. A photographer named 115 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 1: Bill Hudson takes a picture of a white police officer 116 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: with dark sunglasses and a big german shepherd. The dog 117 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 1: is lunging at a young black teenager. The next day, 118 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 1: The New York Times publishes the photograph above the fold, 119 00:07:47,796 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: across three columns on the front page of its weekend paper, 120 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:54,676 Speaker 1: as does basically every other major newspaper in the country. 121 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 1: President Kennedy is asked about the photo and he's appalled. 122 00:07:59,756 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 1: The Secretary of State says, it will quote embarrass our 123 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:07,236 Speaker 1: friends abroad and make our enemies joyful. It's discussed on 124 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:11,316 Speaker 1: the floor of Congress, Trials are written, people have debates 125 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: about it. It's exactly what King wants, something to show 126 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, just how bad things are 127 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:21,756 Speaker 1: in the South, and the tide turns. A year later, 128 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 1: Congress passes the Civil Rights Act, one of the most 129 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:28,476 Speaker 1: important pieces of legislation in the history of the United States. 130 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 1: The Civil Rights Act, people always say was written in Birmingham. 131 00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 1: Kelly Ingram Park is now a shrine to the events 132 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty three. The first black mayor of Birmingham, 133 00:08:44,156 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 1: Richard Errington, takes office in nineteen seventy nine and decides 134 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 1: to fill this little patch of history with sculptures that 135 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:52,956 Speaker 1: tell the story of the movement. He commissions one of 136 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:56,196 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, another of Fred Shuttlesworth, who is a 137 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:58,876 Speaker 1: key leader of the Birmingham Protests. It is one of 138 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:01,756 Speaker 1: the four little girls killed when white supremacists bombed the 139 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in September of nineteen sixty three. Finally, 140 00:09:07,196 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 1: Errington turns to the photo, the famous photo, for one 141 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:14,116 Speaker 1: final statue, and he calls up Mac McDowell, who has 142 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: moved out to Tuskegee from California and transformed himself into 143 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: a kind of house artist for the Civil rights movement. 144 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 2: He said, I gotta get a statue done right because 145 00:09:24,756 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 2: people at Marshton and movement are complaining about the children 146 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:30,916 Speaker 2: don't look like them. The children had white features with 147 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 2: black hair, and there were a lot of complaints. And 148 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:35,796 Speaker 2: he said, I need you to do a design of 149 00:09:35,876 --> 00:09:40,076 Speaker 2: this image, this photograph of this boy and this police 150 00:09:40,116 --> 00:09:42,996 Speaker 2: officer and the dog attacking him. 151 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:45,916 Speaker 1: The other artists with sculptures in Kelly Ingram Park are 152 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:51,036 Speaker 1: big names, white men with impressive resumes. Mac a kid 153 00:09:51,036 --> 00:09:55,116 Speaker 1: from the projects of Oakland, entirely self taught. He had 154 00:09:55,156 --> 00:09:58,236 Speaker 1: in fact never done a sculpture before, a detail that 155 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 1: he conveniently failed to tell Richard Arrington. The marriage just 156 00:10:01,876 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 1: wants Mack to do some sketches provide a guide. 157 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:07,636 Speaker 2: This look on his face was a look of frustration, 158 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 2: like nobody's doing what I want. They're not getting it, 159 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:12,116 Speaker 2: none of the sculptures. And I was like, I can't 160 00:10:12,156 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 2: say no to him because he's powerful. Where it's a 161 00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:17,316 Speaker 2: great odd you know of Birmingham. 162 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: The next thing, you know, Max doing the whole thing. 163 00:10:20,556 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 2: And I started sculpting it in three hours later I 164 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:24,596 Speaker 2: was complete, and I took it to Arrington about I 165 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 2: wanted to think. I did it a quick side, waited 166 00:10:26,356 --> 00:10:27,836 Speaker 2: a week and took it to him and he said, 167 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:31,516 Speaker 2: you got the commission? How much? And so the rest 168 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 2: is history. 169 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:37,036 Speaker 1: It was unveiled in a special ceremony in May nineteen 170 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 1: ninety five. It's called foot Soldier because that was the 171 00:10:40,196 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 1: term used to describe the people who marched in Martin 172 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 1: Luther King's army. On a statue's granite base, it reads, 173 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:50,076 Speaker 1: this sculpture is dedicated to the foot Soldiers of the 174 00:10:50,076 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 1: Birmingham Civil Rights Movement. On a little plaque next to 175 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:56,876 Speaker 1: it is the famous photo on which the statue was based. 176 00:10:57,516 --> 00:10:59,036 Speaker 1: If you want to see a picture of it, we 177 00:10:59,156 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 1: have one up on revisionististory dot com. 178 00:11:04,316 --> 00:11:05,876 Speaker 2: And the first you want to say. It was Stevie 179 00:11:05,876 --> 00:11:08,796 Speaker 2: Wanders and Emmettiel's mother. And what I didn't know at 180 00:11:08,836 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 2: the time I did the statue. When you're doing bronze, 181 00:11:11,316 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 2: you have to smooth everything. Because I was untrained, I 182 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 2: didn't smooth the rocks. So Steve was filling the rocks 183 00:11:16,636 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 2: and he cut his hand and one of the men 184 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 2: in the parks was there and he told me, he 185 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 2: saying I'm getting blood on my hand because Stevie wanted it. 186 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:25,716 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my. 187 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: God, it's it's almost it's almost biblical. It's almost like 188 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:32,836 Speaker 1: he's blessing the park with his blood. 189 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, Stevie got cut on those rocks that I folked. 190 00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:36,396 Speaker 3: It. 191 00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 1: Foot Soldier is the most powerful sculpture in kelly Ingram Park. 192 00:11:42,396 --> 00:11:45,956 Speaker 1: Nothing else comes close. And maybe that's where the trouble starts. 193 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:51,716 Speaker 1: The name of the police officer in the photograph was 194 00:11:51,836 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: Richard Middleton. Everyone called him Dick. His best friend on 195 00:11:55,836 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 1: the force was Bobby Hayes. Big guy lives near a 196 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,236 Speaker 1: golf course outside Birmingham. Must be in his eighties by now. 197 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: Hayes and Middleton started as police officers in Birmingham right 198 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 1: at the moment when the civil rights movement was asserting itself. 199 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 1: The police department was all white and all male back then, 200 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: but in the streets the balance of power was shifting. 201 00:12:16,676 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: When integration came to the Birmingham school system, Hayes remembers 202 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:21,716 Speaker 1: it as bewildering. 203 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 4: If you were a cop, nobody really liked you because 204 00:12:30,756 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 4: we were carrying the black kids in the school. That's 205 00:12:33,316 --> 00:12:35,276 Speaker 4: what we were ordered to do, and they were going 206 00:12:35,356 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 4: to get in. That's just the way it was. We 207 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 4: had no choice. The black people didn't like you because 208 00:12:42,756 --> 00:12:45,996 Speaker 4: you were a policeman. The white people didn't like you 209 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:48,796 Speaker 4: because you're protecting the black kids and carrying the men 210 00:12:48,956 --> 00:12:55,156 Speaker 4: where the crowd the goofies didn't want them to go. 211 00:12:56,116 --> 00:13:00,596 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty three, King's protest campaign was headquartered in 212 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: sixteen Street Baptist Church, which is an old red brick 213 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 1: building on the northwest corner of kelly Ingram Park. The 214 00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:10,836 Speaker 1: protesters would come out in the afternoon march around the 215 00:13:10,836 --> 00:13:14,156 Speaker 1: park on their way downtown. They were trained in nonviolence, 216 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:18,436 Speaker 1: marched according to a strict schedule. It was a military operation. 217 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:21,796 Speaker 1: Crowds of people would gather to see the spectacle. The 218 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:25,316 Speaker 1: police were supposed to keep the protesters and the crowd apart. 219 00:13:26,836 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: The protests get bigger and bigger, the crowds get bigger 220 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: and bigger. It's late spring, so it's starting to get 221 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 1: really hot. The police chief Bull Connor starts locking up 222 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,316 Speaker 1: everyone he can. Then Connor says, to how with it, 223 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 1: bring in the dogs. 224 00:13:42,916 --> 00:13:46,356 Speaker 4: Of course, there's a lot of noise, a lot of 225 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:49,636 Speaker 4: tension in the air, a lot of people yelling and screaming. 226 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 4: Bricks started coming in, you know, throwing bricks. It got 227 00:13:56,236 --> 00:14:00,716 Speaker 4: to be a really ugly slight real quick, real quick. 228 00:14:01,796 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 1: Dick Middleton, the cop in the photo, was a member 229 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:08,036 Speaker 1: of the city's canine unit. He had a German shepherd 230 00:14:08,156 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: named Leo. He and the other members of the tactical 231 00:14:11,116 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: unit were posted behind a barricade, a row of wooden 232 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 1: saw horses running parallel to the curb. There's a line 233 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 1: of cops and dogs in a kind of no man's 234 00:14:20,796 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 1: land between the bystanders and the protesters. 235 00:14:25,116 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 4: He was inside the barricade. The crowd was on the 236 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 4: other side, and they were taunting the police, and of 237 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:35,716 Speaker 4: course all we could do is just stand at the police. 238 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:39,316 Speaker 4: All they just stand there. At that time, Dick was 239 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 4: well back the way. He told me he was ten 240 00:14:43,916 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 4: yards maybe back of the barricades, and the guy came 241 00:14:48,836 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 4: round a barricade. 242 00:14:52,036 --> 00:14:54,596 Speaker 1: So here we have a foot soldier in the middle 243 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 1: of all the mayhem, cutting through the no man's land 244 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 1: towards the sidewalk, and Middleton's German shepherd, Leo, lunges at him. 245 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:06,116 Speaker 1: That's the moment Bill Hudson captures in his famous photograph, 246 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 1: and Ron mc dowell captures in his statue the confrontation 247 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:14,396 Speaker 1: between the innocent foot soldier and the snarling face of 248 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:19,596 Speaker 1: racial oppression. Bill Hudson's editor says later that he picked 249 00:15:19,596 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: that particular photo out of the many taken that day 250 00:15:22,636 --> 00:15:26,276 Speaker 1: because he was riveted by the saintly calm of the 251 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:29,276 Speaker 1: young man and the snarling jaws of the German shepherd. 252 00:15:33,436 --> 00:15:35,996 Speaker 1: Here's where the story starts to get complicated. 253 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:42,036 Speaker 5: This is an interview today on Saturday, May twenty fifth, 254 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:46,196 Speaker 5: nineteen ninety six at the Birmingham Service Answer Too, with 255 00:15:46,476 --> 00:15:52,196 Speaker 5: mister Walter Gaston of Atlanta, Georgia. Okay, how did you 256 00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 5: get involved in the civil rights movement? 257 00:15:55,356 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 6: Now, that's one thing that I always had a problem with. 258 00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 6: I never did get involved with the civil rights movement. 259 00:16:05,556 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: Walter Gadsden is the boy in the photograph, the one 260 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: bitten by Leo. He's a mysterious figure. He was interviewed 261 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:15,076 Speaker 1: at the time of the photograph by Jet magazine back 262 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:19,196 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three, but only briefly. From time to time, 263 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 1: other people have come forward to say that they were 264 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: the one in the photograph, not Gadsden, but those claims 265 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 1: seem dubious. Meanwhile, Gadsden disappears, people try and find him 266 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 1: in can't. All that seems to exist is this oral 267 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:36,116 Speaker 1: history that you're hearing done in honor of the unveiling 268 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:41,116 Speaker 1: of Ron McDowell's statue. And the interview is strange because 269 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 1: it doesn't go the way the interviewer thinks it's going 270 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:48,516 Speaker 1: to go. She starts with the obvious question, you were 271 00:16:48,556 --> 00:16:51,396 Speaker 1: a foot soldier. Tell me how that came about? And 272 00:16:51,436 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: he says, I wasn't a foot soldier. 273 00:16:53,996 --> 00:16:58,596 Speaker 6: But the fact is, the day of that movement, I 274 00:16:58,636 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 6: was supposed to have been in school, but a friend 275 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 6: of my acquaintance of mine had told me that earlier 276 00:17:06,076 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 6: that Martin Luther Gaine was him down that day and 277 00:17:08,916 --> 00:17:14,396 Speaker 6: he was going to be there. And I said I 278 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 6: wanted to be there too. I wanted to come and 279 00:17:16,596 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 6: thrit out what it was all a battle. 280 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: Walter Gadsden is a bystander. The famous statue in kelly 281 00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 1: Ingram Park foot Soldier is not in fact of a 282 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: foot soldier. It gets stranger, okay. 283 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 3: And when you go to school? Where did you come downtown. 284 00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 7: To the park area? The kelly Ingram Park over there. 285 00:17:37,716 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 6: So we started walking toward the activity, and as I 286 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 6: approached and got closer, they turned and looked with me, 287 00:17:45,956 --> 00:17:49,036 Speaker 6: and I saw it coming toward me, so I turned 288 00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:49,676 Speaker 6: to lee. 289 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:53,596 Speaker 1: He was walking down the street with the protesters coming 290 00:17:53,676 --> 00:17:56,316 Speaker 1: towards him. So he veers off to get out of 291 00:17:56,356 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 1: their way and rejoin the spectators on the sidewalk. Duckson 292 00:18:00,396 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 1: behind the row of sawhorses, where he runs into officers 293 00:18:03,796 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 1: Middleton and Leo. 294 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 7: So as I turned and started to walk away, I 295 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:08,916 Speaker 7: was great. 296 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 6: And the rest of it are about the policeman Gray 297 00:18:12,636 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 6: about the policeman and yank toward him. 298 00:18:16,156 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 3: Does that happen? The dog bits you there? 299 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 7: As I can remember that that happened simultaneously. 300 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:23,796 Speaker 2: Did you go. 301 00:18:25,276 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 7: The policeman gray at me? I don't remember what hand, 302 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 7: but the dog the gray at me with one hand. 303 00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 6: It happened so fast there was nothing to do except 304 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:37,556 Speaker 6: throw up the leg and try to protect usself. 305 00:18:37,676 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 7: And as I was doing that, there I went. Yeah. 306 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:47,596 Speaker 1: If you look at the famous photo, Gasden's explanation makes sense. 307 00:18:48,556 --> 00:18:52,156 Speaker 1: Leo is lunging. The bite is a millisecond away. But 308 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: Gaston and Middleton just look startled, the way people do 309 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: if they unexpectedly bump into each other. Gaston has his 310 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: knee up as a reflex and his hand on Middleton 311 00:19:02,716 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 1: as if to steady himself. Middleton has one hand on 312 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: Gadsden and his other arm is flexed. He's yanking back 313 00:19:10,876 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: on the leash. Leo has freaked out and he's trying 314 00:19:14,276 --> 00:19:19,796 Speaker 1: to restrain him. Leo whoa. Middleton's colleague, Bobby Hayes made 315 00:19:19,796 --> 00:19:23,516 Speaker 1: the same point to me. Middleton's not letting Leo loose 316 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,596 Speaker 1: on Gadsden. Quite the opposite. 317 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:28,716 Speaker 4: If you look at the picture, you can tell he's 318 00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:33,836 Speaker 4: holding the dog back the lion's taunt the dog feeder 319 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:37,436 Speaker 4: in the air the best I recall, and Dick got 320 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:41,596 Speaker 4: him here. He's holding that line. He don't only invite 321 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 4: that guy. 322 00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 1: Now, what does Gadsden say about all this. Does he 323 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 1: think he's been the victim of police brutality? Not at all. 324 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:55,316 Speaker 1: In fact, he can't seem to understand why everyone makes 325 00:19:55,316 --> 00:19:57,356 Speaker 1: such a big deal out of what happened to him 326 00:19:57,356 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: that day. 327 00:19:58,356 --> 00:20:03,236 Speaker 5: How does your family members react to your participation, Well, 328 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:07,036 Speaker 5: they were angry because I didn't attend school that day. 329 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: He appears in an image that transfixed the world, and 330 00:20:11,636 --> 00:20:15,076 Speaker 1: his parents are mad that he skipped school. The interviewer 331 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 1: then tries to get at Gadsden's connections to the struggle 332 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:19,196 Speaker 1: for civil rights. 333 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:22,596 Speaker 5: Okay, well, the church where your parents or your family 334 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 5: members were attending, were they involved in the civil rights 335 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:26,476 Speaker 5: movement during that time? 336 00:20:26,636 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 7: You know they never told me of it. Okay. 337 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:35,156 Speaker 5: What benefits do you your family in the community realize 338 00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 5: as a result of that movement? 339 00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 7: None. 340 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 1: In answer to the question what benefits did your family 341 00:20:44,756 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 1: receive from the civil rights movement, he answers none. He's 342 00:20:49,196 --> 00:20:53,476 Speaker 1: not having any of it. Gadsden's interview, in fact, just 343 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 1: gets weirder. 344 00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 3: Okay, if you were. 345 00:20:56,316 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 5: In control of an organization or a movement of such 346 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 5: and could go back and change some things, what would 347 00:21:03,516 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 5: you change? 348 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 7: Okay? 349 00:21:06,196 --> 00:21:12,476 Speaker 6: The things that would change would be a more careful 350 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:19,196 Speaker 6: choice of people involved. 351 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:25,756 Speaker 7: In all of those movements. There are too many, well 352 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 7: the big just blunt, crooked people. Many of the people 353 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 7: that were involved and had no abiety became too crooked. 354 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 1: The most famous photograph of the Civil rights movement is 355 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: of a startled cop trying desperately to hold his dog 356 00:21:45,596 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 1: back from biting a bystander who wasn't that much of 357 00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: a fan of the civil rights movement. 358 00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 6: I'm wondering, Steel, why mean, because I've never had any 359 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 6: notoriety whatsoever. 360 00:21:56,516 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 7: Concerning that picture. That picture was in the paper, but 361 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:04,116 Speaker 7: many other people were too, Yes, many other situations. 362 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:09,236 Speaker 6: Plus it's Bonnie, yes, but they chose to use a 363 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:11,956 Speaker 6: lip boy at fifteen of that statue. 364 00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 7: The little boy in aves put up a little boy 365 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:14,396 Speaker 7: in size. 366 00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 3: Are you surprised when you found out about it? 367 00:22:19,076 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 7: I was totally flabbergas cause I don't know who to thin. 368 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 1: And Gadsden's main objection he's light skinned, he says, The 369 00:22:27,516 --> 00:22:29,236 Speaker 1: statue makes him look dark skinned. 370 00:22:30,196 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 6: That statue doesn't look like me. It looks like a 371 00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:36,516 Speaker 6: totally different boy. That looks like an African boy. 372 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 3: What do you feel about it looks like African boy? 373 00:22:40,836 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 6: It looks like an African boy. 374 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 5: Uh, the color of the features, the features, the lips, 375 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:51,156 Speaker 5: the size. 376 00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 7: You take a look at the pictured air and the 377 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 7: statue air the boy short. I was tall for my ads. 378 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:02,876 Speaker 1: If you listen to the whole interview, it nearly goes 379 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: off the rails. At this point, the interviewer expected to 380 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: find a heroic civil rights veteran. Instead, she's getting a 381 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 1: grumpy old man still wedded to some of the oldest 382 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:14,956 Speaker 1: and most awkward of black prejudices. 383 00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 3: We're very proud of it, and I hope you will 384 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,756 Speaker 3: be too. And now that we know who you are, 385 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:26,916 Speaker 3: we can add a name under there. But you with 386 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:29,676 Speaker 3: the young boy, let's comet tore used. 387 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:41,196 Speaker 6: Well, M, I'm still wondering why after all the information 388 00:23:41,356 --> 00:23:45,836 Speaker 6: that I had given, and and and all that, all 389 00:23:45,956 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 6: that established me as being a young African boy, which 390 00:23:49,996 --> 00:23:50,276 Speaker 6: I'm not. 391 00:23:54,956 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 3: You prefer being called a negro. 392 00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:00,796 Speaker 7: I prefer being called what I am, a colored? 393 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:03,116 Speaker 3: Oh oh, you prefer you were colored? 394 00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 7: I am? 395 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, euphemism and evasion. At the beginning, I said 396 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 1: that what I object to is the way so many 397 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:21,716 Speaker 1: stories about race get cleaned up, sanitized, so the brown 398 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 1: decision becomes a fairy tale in which black people triumph 399 00:24:25,436 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 1: without effort. Well, here's the flip side. When we stop 400 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:34,636 Speaker 1: evading and just listen, it gets complicated. Our hero, Walter 401 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:38,516 Speaker 1: Gadsden isn't all that heroic. As for the bad guy, 402 00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: the officer, his colleague Bobby Hayes says he wasn't a 403 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 1: bad guy. Did Officer Hayes tell me things that surprised me? 404 00:24:46,796 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 1: And did listening to Walter Gadsden shock me? Absolutely? Because 405 00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 1: I'm no different from anyone else. I liked the fairy tale. 406 00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:58,556 Speaker 1: So the person who invited me down to Birmingham in 407 00:24:58,596 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 1: the first place was Dick Middleton's widow. Everyone calls her 408 00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: missus Klingler. Her husband died not long ago, and I 409 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:08,396 Speaker 1: think she felt it was time to speak out. We 410 00:25:08,436 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: met at a barbecue you restaurant in downtown Birmingham, sat upstairs. 411 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:17,556 Speaker 1: So he's a police officer at a time when Birmingham 412 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 1: is obviously going through some very tumultuous times. Can you 413 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:23,716 Speaker 1: tell me about that? 414 00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 8: The first that was the first ten years I'd still 415 00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:31,876 Speaker 8: learning to speak English. I didn't really know what's going on. 416 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:34,236 Speaker 8: I didn't understand what's going on. 417 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:37,996 Speaker 1: Missus Klingler was from Germany. She met Richard when he 418 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:40,956 Speaker 1: was stationed there with the army. She says, what happened 419 00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:43,796 Speaker 1: on that spring day in nineteen sixty three was like 420 00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:45,276 Speaker 1: a shadow over her husband. 421 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 8: He went to work and come home and enjoy the family. Ah, 422 00:25:50,316 --> 00:25:53,076 Speaker 8: but I knew something is going on. 423 00:25:53,876 --> 00:25:54,076 Speaker 3: You know. 424 00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:57,836 Speaker 8: Then later on you see the picture in the paper. Oh, 425 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:00,676 Speaker 8: he never really discussed it. 426 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:04,556 Speaker 1: She had a big book with her filled with clippings 427 00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 1: of her husband's career and other photographs from that day 428 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:11,556 Speaker 1: in kelly Ingram Park. She wanted to set the record straight. 429 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 1: Her husband was unfairly vilified. 430 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 8: He done his job and he was spit at, he 431 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:26,156 Speaker 8: was thrown rocks at and he did not let the 432 00:26:26,276 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 8: guy put the dog to him. He was holding the 433 00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:35,596 Speaker 8: leash away from him. If you see other pictures what happened. 434 00:26:37,716 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 8: This was not the right picture. 435 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:44,396 Speaker 1: This was not the stort, this was not the truth. 436 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 1: For the longest time afterwards, they got hate mail. So 437 00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 1: how soon did the letters start coming? 438 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,276 Speaker 8: Just like, I'm sure like the next month or so 439 00:26:56,396 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 8: when it went all over the world, just as ugly 440 00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 8: as you can imagine. 441 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, did he ever talk to any journalist? Or do 442 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 1: you know. No, you never gave any interviews. 443 00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 8: He didn't give no interviews because I think he felt 444 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:18,916 Speaker 8: like what he was betrayed es they would not tell it. 445 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 8: No matter what he say, no matter what he would do, 446 00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:27,916 Speaker 8: they would not believe him. All they look at the picture, 447 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:28,916 Speaker 8: that's all. 448 00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: Do you think your husband suffered? 449 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:32,796 Speaker 8: I think he has. 450 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:38,876 Speaker 1: Yes, there's a statue in Kelly Ingram Park of one 451 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:42,076 Speaker 1: of the most iconic moments in civil rights history, and 452 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:46,036 Speaker 1: everyone directly involved in that moment thinks it didn't happen 453 00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:55,636 Speaker 1: that way. Oh Mac, what did you do? You said 454 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:59,756 Speaker 1: earlier that when you draw, you try and inhabit the characters. Yes, 455 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 1: and so tell me your emotional reactions to that photograph. 456 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:07,436 Speaker 2: Well, I saw that the boy was maybe about six four, 457 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:11,636 Speaker 2: the officers maybe five ten, five nine, And I said, 458 00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 2: this is a movement about power. So I made the 459 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:18,676 Speaker 2: little boy younger and smaller, and the officer taller and stronger. 460 00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:21,716 Speaker 2: The armor of the law is so strong, that's why 461 00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:24,996 Speaker 2: his arm is almost like strength. And the dog is 462 00:28:25,036 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 2: more like a wolf than a real dog. Because if 463 00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:29,516 Speaker 2: I'm a little boy, that's what I would see. I 464 00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 2: would see, like this super man hovering over me, putting 465 00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 2: this big, old, giant monster of a dog in my 466 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,996 Speaker 2: gran area, in my private area. And so that's what 467 00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 2: I envisioned when I first saw the photograph. 468 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 1: And you changed it. In the photograph, I noticed the 469 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 1: boy is leaning in, and in your sculpture, he's leaning back. 470 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:50,556 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 471 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:55,076 Speaker 2: He's leaning back because I wanted to depict him showing 472 00:28:55,236 --> 00:28:57,676 Speaker 2: that I'm not gonna fight you. I'm not leaving, I'm 473 00:28:57,676 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 2: not moving, I'm standing, but I'm not gonna fight you. 474 00:29:00,556 --> 00:29:03,116 Speaker 2: This is a non violent protest. That's why his hands 475 00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 2: are open and he's going back, like, do whatever you're 476 00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:06,316 Speaker 2: gonna do. Put the dog on me, beat me with 477 00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 2: the color, whatever you want to do. And I saw 478 00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:12,196 Speaker 2: all of that when I saw the photograph. 479 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 1: We were in the Tuskegee History Center, a museum on 480 00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 1: Elm Street, not far from the university. It's in what 481 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:21,156 Speaker 1: looks like an old bank, and it's filled with exhibits 482 00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 1: to the town's extraordinary history, the infamous Tuskegee Syphliss Study, 483 00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 1: the Tuskegee Airman, Rosa Parks. Tuskegee native McDowell's work was 484 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,436 Speaker 1: all over the walls. He took me on a little tour. 485 00:29:34,076 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 1: Then we sat down and he took out his portfolio. 486 00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 2: Here's the statue. 487 00:29:40,356 --> 00:29:43,356 Speaker 1: Those glasses are like we are the glasses the same. 488 00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: I think, did you make the glasses bigger? 489 00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:46,796 Speaker 2: Too good? 490 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:53,196 Speaker 1: Piper maca is a whole section on the statue, preliminary drawings, sketches, photographs, so. 491 00:29:53,196 --> 00:29:56,996 Speaker 2: He's almost like a blind officer. He doesn't even see 492 00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 2: the kid because he's so far beyond that killed this nigger, 493 00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 2: attacked this nigger. He's so passed the reality of this 494 00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:07,676 Speaker 2: is a human, innocent, human child, human being. That's why 495 00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:09,396 Speaker 2: he was wearing blind people glass. 496 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:11,996 Speaker 1: That is so interesting because when you see that, that's 497 00:30:12,036 --> 00:30:14,676 Speaker 1: the thing I couldn't put my finger on. The officer 498 00:30:14,756 --> 00:30:18,476 Speaker 1: is behaving as if he's blind. The dog is attacking. 499 00:30:18,516 --> 00:30:20,556 Speaker 1: He doesn't even see the boy. 500 00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:25,756 Speaker 2: You're the first person I tell that to. That's so interesting. 501 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:27,796 Speaker 2: See how vicious the dog will. 502 00:30:28,436 --> 00:30:30,796 Speaker 1: Oh my, that is a wolf. 503 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:35,516 Speaker 2: I did the hair with the I don't I don't 504 00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:37,636 Speaker 2: have to. I didn't know what instruments to use. I 505 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 2: did all this with a pencil pencil in the hair, 506 00:30:41,796 --> 00:30:44,836 Speaker 2: and I do the teeth like that, and oh, look 507 00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:47,916 Speaker 2: at the teeth. I did that on purpose. The curved 508 00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:50,876 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because if you have a curve too, like 509 00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:54,156 Speaker 2: when you see those those World Wolf pictures, the teeth 510 00:30:54,156 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 2: the curve because once there's like a snake when he 511 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:58,076 Speaker 2: bites you, if he doesn't retrack and he's gonna rip, 512 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:00,636 Speaker 2: it's not going in and coming out when it comes out, 513 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:05,236 Speaker 2: he's gonna rip flesh. 514 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,116 Speaker 1: When you're face to face with the statue. It has 515 00:31:08,316 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 1: historical authority. It's in the shadow of sixteenth Street Baptist 516 00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:16,396 Speaker 1: Church inside kelly Ingram Park at the actual site of 517 00:31:16,436 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: the Birmingham Marches. But it's a work of imagination. It's 518 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:28,076 Speaker 1: not a literal representation. It's art. Well, are there other 519 00:31:28,116 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 1: details that I mean you were saying you there's the 520 00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:34,316 Speaker 1: blind officer, there's the curved teeth on the dog. 521 00:31:35,116 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 2: See the officer moved all of his anger into the 522 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:42,276 Speaker 2: doll and it's the dog that's attacking the boy. You know. 523 00:31:42,356 --> 00:31:47,196 Speaker 2: That's what they'll do with with racism. 524 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:50,316 Speaker 1: Mac made Leo into a wolf and blinded Middleton and 525 00:31:50,396 --> 00:31:54,036 Speaker 1: shrank Walter Gaston until he was tiny and helpless because 526 00:31:54,036 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 1: he was telling a story about Birmingham. That's what history is. 527 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 1: Each side writes their own story, and the winner story 528 00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 1: is the one we call the truth. You don't think 529 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:07,396 Speaker 1: white people told their share of whoppers over the years 530 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:10,036 Speaker 1: in the South. You don't think that there's a statue 531 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 1: in a Southern town somewhere of a champion of the 532 00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 1: Confederacy that makes a hero of someone who's actually a villain. 533 00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,916 Speaker 1: White people got to do that in the South for centuries. 534 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:22,356 Speaker 1: Foot Soldier is just what happens when the people on 535 00:32:22,396 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 1: the bottom finally get the power to tell the story 536 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:33,876 Speaker 1: their way. It was a long time coming. It's a 537 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:34,996 Speaker 1: brilliant statue. 538 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:37,516 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'll pour my heart into. 539 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:40,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some you have some mischief in you. 540 00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:45,196 Speaker 2: What do you mean there's. 541 00:32:44,996 --> 00:32:47,476 Speaker 1: A little bit of mischief in that in your recreation 542 00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:51,556 Speaker 1: of that photo, you're you were using that opportunity to 543 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:54,796 Speaker 1: make a much broader kind of subversive point. 544 00:32:56,516 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 2: I maybe I. 545 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 1: Went back through Birmingham after talking to Mac and Tuskegee, 546 00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:07,196 Speaker 1: and I went to Kelly Ingram Park one last time 547 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 1: stood in front of the statue. I think everyone who 548 00:33:10,636 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 1: wants to understand the civil rights movement should do that 549 00:33:13,796 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: because of what it means, the hard won reward of 550 00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:20,276 Speaker 1: a long and costly battle over who gets to control 551 00:33:20,356 --> 00:33:23,676 Speaker 1: the stories that make up history. But if you do, 552 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:26,836 Speaker 1: just keep in mind that Dick Middleton didn't actually sick 553 00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:30,596 Speaker 1: his dog Leo on Walter Gadsden, and that Walter Gadsden 554 00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:33,316 Speaker 1: wasn't actually a foot soldier for civil rights. 555 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 2: Mayor Rrington told me right often we did the unfail me. 556 00:33:37,116 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 2: He got hundreds of threats about bombing and tearing a 557 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:44,676 Speaker 2: statue up from all over the world, and his response was, 558 00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:46,716 Speaker 2: I'll just get back into a bigger one and a 559 00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:48,436 Speaker 2: batter one so they never touched it. 560 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:51,156 Speaker 1: Oh, he said, if you if you destroy that statue, 561 00:33:51,156 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: we're coming back bigger. 562 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:55,076 Speaker 2: Do you know how many times I begged for somebody. 563 00:33:55,396 --> 00:34:08,076 Speaker 9: I hope somebody blows it down to a bigger one. 564 00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,556 Speaker 1: Revisionous History is produced by Me Label and Jacob Smith, 565 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:16,636 Speaker 1: with Camilloe Baptista, Stephanie Daniel, and Ciomara Martinez White. Our 566 00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:21,356 Speaker 1: editor is Julia Barton. Lawn Williams is our engineer. Original 567 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:25,036 Speaker 1: music by Luis Guerra. Special thanks to Andy Bauers and 568 00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:28,236 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg at Panoply. I'm Malcolm Gladwell