1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch It 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: on the beginning of podcast. High prices have strained power 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: systems across Europe this year, shifting power flows between countries 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: and triggering extraordinary congestion management costs. Greater interconnection between power 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: markets and the expansion of distributed energy systems are touted 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: as two of the key solutions to these problems, but 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: questions remain around technology, implementation timelines, and of course policy. 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: We recently had the opportunity to sit down with Chris 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Peter's CEO of Alia Group to discuss how we might 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: rethink the European electricity grid as the energy system decarbonizes. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: He's particularly well positioned to discuss interconnectors. He's been the 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: Alia Group CEO since which through its subsidiaries in Belgium 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: and Germany, operates over nineteen hundred kilometers of high voltage 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: connections and supplies thirty million users with electricity. And speaking 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: with Chris today about or connectors in demand side flexibility 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: is Sunjeet Sangara and at B and F he heads 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: our Grids and Utilities work. So today he'll be your host. Now. 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: As a quick reminder, B and e F does not 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: provide investment or strategy advice, and we have a complete 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: disclaimer that can be found at the end of the show. 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: But now let's hear from Sengeet speaking with Chris about 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: the future of the European energy system. Hi, Chris, it's 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: so nice to have you in the office. I wanted 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: to have a bit of a conversation about the different 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: forms of flexibility. We have large flexibility with interconnectors, and 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: we can have distributed or smaller flexibility with the use 27 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: of demand side resources. So here in Europe we've had 28 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: a year where the power system has come under strain. 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: We've seen shifting power flows, extraordinary congestion management costs, and 30 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: we've known for some time that flexibility is part of 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: the solution. So this is kind of what I want 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: to explore, and I want to start by talking about 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: the bigger form of flexibility, which is interconnector development. And 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: the question I have for you is interconnection still important 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: to the net zero project? And I say that because, 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: like we've seen a success with energization of Ukraine to 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: the European continental grid this year, but we've also seen 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: some countries suggest that interconnection flows are not dependable right 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: that they might not move as much energy on them. 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: So where do you place interconnection on the net zero project? Well, 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: for us, interconnectors remain a key piece of the solution, 42 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: and that has to do with a couple of things. 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: First of all, we see quite an important evolution of 44 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: interconnectors towards hybridization. So we use them not only to 45 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: interconnect two different market parts and to have flows between 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: those market parts and in that way create welfare. We 47 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: also see them as a mean to integrate offshore renewable 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: energy into the grid, and so that means that they 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: become much more effective than they were before. So they 50 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: were come actually a very let's say, valuable piece but 51 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: also cost effective piece of the energy transition. If you 52 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: then look at your question around flexibility, interconnect display a 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: major role in a system that is having large volumes 54 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: of renewables because it it helps with matching decorrelated markets 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: to each other. So, for instance, like the Nordic part 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: of the North Sea in our cases very much decorrelated 57 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: from the South part of the North Sea. Connecting those 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: two together, of course creates a much more stable flow 59 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: of energy, and that is one that we did a 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: study last year, and how could the system work that 61 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: is fully based on renewables just for the technical interest, 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: And there you see that renewals play specifically role in 63 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: the what we call medium term cycle. Yeah. So the 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: other types of flexibility just mentioned are in the short cycle, 65 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: let's say day two days kind of cycle. Interconnected to 66 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: play a very important role in the flexibility that we 67 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: have that is going over the cycle that is between 68 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: three and fifteen days, let's say. And the reason why 69 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: that is is that, of course you can bring large 70 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: volumes of green energy from one place where it is 71 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: produced to another place, and that is creating of course 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: a very let's say good dimension of flexibility in that 73 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: kind of horizon, and it's relatively cheap, and it's relatively 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: let's say efficient in the sense that energy losses on 75 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: an interconnector are quite limited compared to any other form 76 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: of flexibility that you can see in the system. Okay, Yeah, 77 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: there's long problem of flexibility when people have tried to 78 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: solve with different types of energy storage technologies. Do we 79 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: think interconnectors play an important role in solving part of 80 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: that problem? Yes. Of course storage always has the element 81 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: that it is a dedicated investment monor relatively high gappags 82 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: that you only can use for that purpose of storage. Yeah, 83 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: or in the case of mobility, of course you have 84 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: the mobility functionality of that battery as well. But where 85 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: you basically say it are actually big investments for something 86 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: that if you can actually consume at the moment of production, 87 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: we have a system which is being that balance means 88 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: that if you can produce at the if you can 89 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: consume at the moment that you produce, you actually have 90 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: many many benefits. And what we see then is of 91 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: course if you can have a geographical spread and therefore 92 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: then bring the energy whatever it's produced to the place 93 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: where at that moment of time somebody is having a demand, 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: that is of course likely one of the most efficient 95 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: ways to use flexibility in an electricity system. Okay, that's 96 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: that's good to hear. Transmission and distribution build like often 97 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: is seemed as like an old solution, but there has 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: been innovation in an interconnector development as well recently. So 99 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: in October in the Danish grid operator energy Net inaugurated 100 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: the first hybrid offshore interconnector. So like the Kreger's flat 101 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: combined grid solution, could you tell us a bit more 102 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: what this is and like what is a hybrid interconnector 103 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: and how that fits into this kind of trajectory that 104 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: we're on. Yes, together with or Danish colleagues, we are 105 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: very proud about this project because it's a first in 106 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: the world and it's working every day and it's creating 107 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: actually welfare for those two societies every day. And what 108 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: it does is the following. So it is a place 109 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: where we have an interconnector between Denmark and Germany, and 110 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: on that route of that interconnect we basically integrate three 111 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: wind farms, two at the German side and one at 112 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: the Dennis side, and so we have a feed in 113 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: of renewable energy at the moment that we have wind, 114 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: but at the moment that we have not the full 115 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: in feed of wind, the remaining capacity actually is given 116 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: to the market as an interconnected capacity. Why don't we 117 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: see more of these because I think there's very few. 118 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: Now this might be the only project. So what's inhabiting 119 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: more of these projects from showing up? Yes, So today 120 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: I think in Europe there are between seven and nine 121 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: projects in concept phase. Three of them are actually within 122 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: Elia Group together then always with a partner so you 123 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: have several of them, but what make them today quite 124 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: complex is the fact that the regulatory framework is not 125 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: adapted to that. So in the case of Creaker's Flag, 126 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: we could negotiate with the European Commission an exempt on 127 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: regulation in the way so that we can manage that. 128 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: To the seventy per cent rule discussion that you have 129 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: on that one, we don't think that overall the seventy 130 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: per cent rule is the real complexity. Real complexity that 131 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: you need to have for such a project to work 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: is not only the technical complexity to be controlled. We 133 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: have proven that we can do that, but also to 134 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: make sure that every part of the business has a 135 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: business case that is bankable and it is in line 136 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: with risk profile of of that specific industry, and that 137 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: is different for wind farms compared to the transmission business. 138 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: And so making sure that the money flows are well 139 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: adjusted so that you don't have one of them making 140 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: windfalls and the other one not having a business case 141 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: that is working. And meanwhile ensuring that this is well 142 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: spread over the citizens of those two countries that are 143 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: participating is quite a complex thing to get right. And 144 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: so we're well advanced on three other as I said 145 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: three other interconnectors. But it always comes from the fact 146 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: that we find technical solutions. Then we have the two 147 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: governments negotiate eating with each other in the way how 148 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: they want to get it organized, because there's not yet 149 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: a fully clarified framework that then sure that everybody gets 150 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: the right benefits, and so you have to negotiate is 151 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: one by one today understood. Yeah, So so the regulatory complexity, 152 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: the factors. Let's let's go up another notch of complexity 153 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: and we can talk about energy islands. So tell me 154 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: about Princess Elizabeth Island and what is an energy island 155 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: and what are you trying to build here. Well, the 156 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: Princess Elizabeth Island is again something which is a key 157 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: piece of the energy transition. Yeah, it's it will be 158 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: the first artificial island that is built for that purpose. Yeah, 159 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: and so it is in this case fully focused on 160 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: transmission activities and it does basically two things. The one 161 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: thing that it does is it brings on shore three 162 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: point five gigabet offshore wind that is in the Princess 163 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: Elizabeth zone. So we bring that energy from those two 164 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: re binds to the island transfer oormit and then bring 165 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: it to short. So that is the That is one activity, 166 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: and they're already we see that the island solution is 167 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: a more cost effective solution and a more reliable solution 168 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: than a multi platform solution. So that is one thing. 169 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: The second thing that we do is the future interconnectors 170 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: that we have in our portfolio, one the second to 171 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: the UK, the no to this interconnector and then try 172 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: to unconnected to Denmark, will land on the island before 173 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: coming to shore in Belgium, and that creates then actually 174 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: a dispatch point in the sea. And of course that 175 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: gives many advantages. That gives an optionality, so it could 176 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: be as well that we would have flows off Danish 177 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: wind to the UK over those cables here without actually 178 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: coming into into Belgium. And obviously as well, that ensures 179 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: that we only have to build the onshore grid for 180 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: peak demand. We don't have to build it for peak 181 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: production because we only bring to shore the energy that 182 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: we will consume. While before you had those solutions that 183 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: a lot of the dispatching was actually happening on the 184 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: onshore it and with the increasing renewable energy, we have 185 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: to reinforce those grids to handle actually that renewable energy, 186 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: and as you know, building on your grid is still 187 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: a challenge in terms of Nimbi effect and everything that 188 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: goes with that, so we we're not going to avoid 189 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: that bigader rectification as well is creating an increase in 190 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: the amount, so that one we still have to build, 191 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: but the one that actually is coming therefore flows coming 192 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: over the country that actually going in and going out 193 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: the other side reduced because a lot of them you 194 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: put actually at sea and before you bring them on land. 195 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: You only bring on land to each country what each 196 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: country is using it at moment of that flow. Amazing. 197 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: What's the timeline for this type of project? When do 198 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: you think you can get this on set? Well, we 199 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: will have the physical part of the island, so the 200 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: concrete that the sand and everything will be built by 201 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: mid twenty six. And that is a consequence of the 202 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: fact that this is a European project that is done 203 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: in in the light of the recovery out of COVID fund. Yeah, 204 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: so that is why, why why why it is within 205 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: that typeline. And then we will build the electrical installation 206 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: and we will connect the first wind forms as of 207 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: probably end of twenty seven, early twenty eight, and then 208 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: the interconnectors will land around let's say the change of 209 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: the decades beginning of next decade to interconnectors will be 210 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: connected to the island as well. So when when I 211 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: take a step back and I think about these energy 212 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: island projects, because there's the Danish energy islands as well, 213 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: they really like, to me, this is the most ambitious 214 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: version of interconnector development of maybe grid development, Like when 215 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: this idea of a super grid that's been talked about 216 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: for a very long time, This to me is the 217 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,239 Speaker 1: very real world realization of that dream, and it transcends 218 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: really what any one nation is trying to do. So 219 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: what's the real intent here of building these islands as 220 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: far as like meeting the three giga walk goal for 221 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: the EU? Is it does this play some role in 222 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: like a kind of a larger grid system for Europe? Yes? Indeed, 223 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: So if you look at if you would have to 224 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: connect in the traditional radial connection way, so wind formed 225 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: by wind form to the ons or grid, you come 226 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: to probably an unmanaged complexity, unmanageable cost as well, because 227 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: it's very costly within one by one and it is 228 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: very unreliable because actually you have all antennas everywhere, and 229 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: so those antennas by itself are much more vulnerable than 230 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: a network that you will have at sea. And so 231 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: those hub that will be connected to each other, because 232 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: if you already see the first two islands that will 233 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: be connected is the Danish island with the Belgian Island 234 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: through the Triton cable. So that's the first time that 235 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: we will connect islands. We really think that we will 236 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: see much more of that, and you will have you 237 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: will need much more of those islands and see each 238 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: time in a zone where you have quite some renewable 239 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: productions offshore wind potential that you have around that island, 240 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: bundle that together on the island and then bring it 241 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: over the different interconnectors that land on that island to 242 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: the right place, or being a pass through situation where 243 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: you have some cable that is passing through an island 244 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: and that is for instance, connecting Belgium with Norway over 245 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: an island in the Netherlands and Denmark and going on 246 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: in that in that direction. So that is what you 247 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: will see because that will be a robust solution, it 248 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: will be a cheaper solution, and it will be a 249 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: scalable solution. For the kind of scale that we're talking 250 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: about now, if you see today we are not even 251 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: at twenty bat. We need to scale it up to 252 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: three on the kabat. Well, then you need scalable solutions 253 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: of course, that goes beyond the one by one that 254 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: we've seen so far. Now for a very short break, 255 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: stay with us. Okay, I want to shift gears. We've 256 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: talked about basically the largest form of flexibility that's kind 257 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: of achieved through geographic diversity. Let's talk about the wallest 258 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: form of flexibility. We can talk about local flexibility systems. 259 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: And so he is looking for a five percent reduction 260 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: in peak demand going into this winter. What type of 261 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: demand side flexibility solutions do you see being a possible 262 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: intervention there? With techno allergy tink will actually be able 263 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: to participate well today, of course, if you talk about 264 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: next winter, not that much maneuvering room that you have. 265 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: And so what is there is what you see that 266 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: is done by aggregators today in terms of demand response products. 267 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: Most of those demands response products are actually in the 268 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: relatively higher voltage levels of the grid and with the 269 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: larger industrial uses, that's where you find it. We have 270 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: already some of the aggregators that are more sophisticated start 271 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: to have let's say, smaller industrial capacity, but none of 272 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: them is yet at the level that you say, like 273 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: we have this very small ones scaled up to something 274 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: which is meaningful for the total system. Yeah, we see 275 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: many to say proof of concepts or don't get me wrong, 276 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: a lot of flexibility is used in of this of 277 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: the small flexibility, but we don't see yet that they 278 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: scaled up those project to the level where we would 279 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: like to see them. And so if we want to 280 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: get to that, we are very much convinced within elia 281 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: group that we need to have a market reform that 282 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: you need to have as well and incentive for that 283 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: and flexibility to participate, and that you have to remove 284 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: to the maximum extent all barriers to do so. Because 285 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: that's what we've seen in the past. Why do we 286 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: have aggregates, Because there were many barriers for the industrial players, 287 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: for the traditional balancing responsibility party parties to actually make 288 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: sure that that flexibility could participate. They had incentives to 289 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: invest more in generation, they had other incentives at that 290 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: point of time, and so aggregates have created ten a 291 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: new play field of that flexibility and we have to 292 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: create the same if we go to the lower voltage 293 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: level that is for this micro flexibility. And our view 294 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: is that, of course today first step would be that 295 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: somebody is monetizing that flexibility through some of the let's 296 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: say t s O ancillaries. That is the way how 297 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: it typically is done. If you want to get money 298 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: for flexibility, sell it as as as a reserve with you. 299 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: So but we're very much convinced that if you really 300 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: want to have it participate, it needs to be in 301 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: the basic energy market in the day had in the 302 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: interday market. It has to play its role. And so 303 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: therefore you need to have price signals that you can 304 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: actually bring to that level so that you have as 305 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: a consumer a incentive to charge your car at the 306 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: moment the risk let's say a lot of renewables on 307 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: the system, you use your heat pump and your terminal 308 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: inertia in a way that you actually are consuming at 309 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: the moment that we have access energy on the grid 310 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: and that you don't use it at the moment that 311 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: we are actually short of that. And so that is 312 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: something where we see a lot of is possible. And 313 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: on top of that, a market reform will enable that 314 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: kind of flexibility, but a lot of that flexibility is 315 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: not of the same nature as the typical ascility we 316 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: aggregate into incility. But actually that is a kind of 317 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: weird form of using that Your use is actually an 318 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: energy management use. You basically say, I will drive tomorrow 319 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: so many miles of kilometers with my car, which is 320 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: in some certain amount of energy that I will need. 321 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: But actually I'm twenty hours linked to the grid, and 322 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: so do whatever you want to load at I need 323 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: so much glories to keep my efficient house at a 324 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: comfortable temperature. But actually if you do that between ten 325 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: and eleven or between three and four, it doesn't change 326 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: a lot, given the inertia of your house. And therefore 327 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: you have a lot of let's say, flexibility, and that 328 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: becomes an energy management discussion more than this ancillary discussion. 329 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: So if you want to have that full participation, we 330 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: have to bring them into the normal energy markets and 331 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: and and and not only as part of the of 332 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: the instillery market to make sure that we have that 333 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: maximum participation. Okay, So if I get that right, we 334 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: have industry, we have buildings, we have the kind of 335 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: the transport sector. These are potential sources of flexibility. In 336 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: the short term, you see industry playing a bigger role. 337 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: In the longer term with market reform, some of these 338 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: other forms of flexibility could come into the fall this, yes, 339 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: boat will increase, but what you see, of course, the 340 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: industrial one is already to some extent available and plays 341 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: a role. If you see at the ones at the 342 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: household level, also at the site of electrification were very 343 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: early stage. Yes, so we have seen a lot of 344 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: solar PV, but there's no flexibility into that. So that 345 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: is we call that prosumers. But in the end they 346 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: produce something, but they don't have yet flexibility. We only 347 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: see recently now that you have evs, heat bumps, stationary 348 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: batteries at houses that you see that are actually the 349 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: real sources of flexibility going forward, and that are the 350 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: big ones that you will see. And we are still 351 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: in the ramp up of that. Heat pump penetration is 352 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: except for some Scandinavian countries, actually fairly low e V 353 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: penetration same so you still need to have the increase 354 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: had the so called as cerves coming in. We see 355 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: that almost as we speak, happening in the e V 356 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: sectrum a lot of people actually in their in the 357 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: next car will buy an e V if the supply 358 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: chain issues get solved and so so so you will 359 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: see a lot of flexibility coming into that part. And 360 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: that's what we want to capture actually to make sure 361 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: that it participates to the maximum extent to the to 362 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: to to degrade itself. Coming back to your question about 363 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: if we can can can we capture five of peak? 364 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: I think that prices will Unfortunately you do already a 365 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: lot of the work there. Yea. So the current prices 366 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: and that's why you see a score that reaction of 367 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: industries is bigger because they are directly exposed to the 368 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: price peak of the wholesale market and households are less. 369 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: So you need to inform them and you try to, 370 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: let's say, based on vol voluntary base that they do 371 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: this load shift. That might be a little bit more complicated, 372 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: but the current of course prices that we see is 373 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: already a factor of big demand reduction overall. Now we 374 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: have to manage it that we do it to the 375 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: maximum extent. At the peak industrial they will probably do 376 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: it by themselves. Household we probably have to give them 377 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: a hand and do information campaigns to make sure that 378 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: they use those moments less than they use other moments. 379 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: In some sense, it's a lost opportunity because we're like 380 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: the grids being tested, and if these market reforms were 381 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: in place, we could have solved these Like the technology 382 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: is there to solve some of these problems, if not 383 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: all of them, right, and it's just about having the 384 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: structures in place, like one like Belgium in Germany have 385 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: some of the lowest smart meter adoption. Do do you 386 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: feel that could possibly in encumbrance with ramping up demand 387 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: side flexibility or or the adoptions that the associated like 388 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: EV is already too low to no. I think it 389 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: would definitely play a role. I think that having digital meters, 390 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: having EV adoption, having heat bumps into the system is 391 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: of course key to make it happen. And I think 392 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: that we all could say, like now, what we see 393 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: in the in the geopolitical situation, if we would have 394 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: had yeah, is what many people would say. You see 395 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: already today that people that have themselves invested at that 396 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: moment of time, not in the business case, but out 397 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: of interest in p vs linked to a smart home 398 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: system are actually the ones that don't feel that much 399 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: from the crisis. I have many of my friends and 400 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: those kind of nerdy tech guys that have built their 401 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: own this kind of system, and what you see actually 402 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: is they are not that much hit because their invoice 403 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: was already a relatively low invoice. A lot of it 404 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: was actually translated into the production of their pvs, the 405 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: bettery use that they have, and you see actually that 406 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: they managed by auto consumption today the crisis much better 407 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: than the other individuals can do. And the actually are 408 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: dependent more from let's say, across the board measures that 409 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: are taken by the government, because of course we don't 410 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: expect that everybody is going to wire as a nerdy 411 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: engineer his house. We want to be sure that everybody 412 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: can benefit from that system without having to do complicated 413 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: investments and developing a self complicated technology. And that's something 414 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: that you can do by your market reform, because a 415 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: market reform can provide opportunities to provide us of those 416 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: smart services and therefore delivered to a much more mass 417 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: market than it is today. So for for mass market 418 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: deployment that often requires standardization. What do you think is 419 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: the current market needs right now? Does it need innovation 420 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: or does it need more interoperability and standardization to kind 421 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: of get everyone on board. I think actually that what 422 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: we need in the first place is to have an 423 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: obligation that appliances can have that flexibility you today we 424 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: see still in car manufacturers that they basically say, we 425 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: offer reading signals to outside parties, but we don't offer 426 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: steering signals to outside parties. If you want to have 427 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: real smart charging, and with real smart charging, I mean 428 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: not the car manufacturing app where you say wait until 429 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: ten o'clock, but something that really follows, for instance, your 430 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: solar PV in a smart way, or something that follows 431 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: actually sprice singles coming from outside, you need to have 432 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: that steer signal that could be delivered to suppliers or 433 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: two whatever other forms of digital services could be could 434 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: be other players into that market. And so that is 435 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: something that we see missing. You see today that even 436 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: heat bumps are not having the obligation that you have 437 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: steering things. We see of course that many of them 438 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: start to do that. Still unclear how they're going to play, 439 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: but there I think the legislation can play a role 440 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: where you say, there is an obligation of open data, 441 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: open steering signals, do they need to be standard. What 442 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: we see in most of the projects that we do 443 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: is that current technology in terms of digital allows you 444 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: actually to connect many different standards together without too many 445 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: interoprobability issues today, so you can perfectly say I aggregate 446 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: batteries of four different brands into one virtual plant kind 447 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: of logic. That is something that is not the big problem. 448 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: The question is are the four types of batteries each 449 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: compatible with giving steering signals to them? And there might 450 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: be different steering signals from brand to brand. Hopefully one 451 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: day they will standardize that. But if actually if it's 452 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: not the case, as soon as they give those steering signals, 453 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: I see that we have good people in I T 454 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: skills and actually can connect them all together as one 455 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: virtual plant without an issue. What more do you think 456 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: needs to be done on the industrial side to get 457 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,959 Speaker 1: the netzera. So what we see, and that's interesting, is 458 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: that industry has changed a lot over the last five years. 459 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: When we were talking to or clients or grid uses, 460 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them, a few years ago, 461 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: you saw that a lot of them were in the 462 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: mindset that the government needs to build some carbon capture 463 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: system and I can do exactly business as usual and 464 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: they have to pay all the costs. And so that's 465 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: the way how it's going to work. I exaggerate a 466 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: little bit, but you had this kind of sentiment that 467 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: it was not happening to them. They would still lobby, 468 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: they would still be in a mode where they would 469 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: say it's not urgent. What we see today is all 470 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: of them start to have real plans. And actually what 471 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: we see even stronger, and that's interesting is that those 472 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: who were early that had already concluded let's say three 473 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: years ago p p as at that moment of time, 474 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: with a surplus cost of something like that, and I said, like, 475 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: I do it for the climate and to for my 476 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: E s G targets. They basically say, it's the cheapest 477 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: part of my portfolio today, I'm the most robust ones 478 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: in my industry actually in this current crisis. And so 479 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: they start to see that there is really a potential 480 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: of this electrification, of this investment into renewables true p 481 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: pas or through direct investments. There's also what we see 482 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: for the Princess Elizabeth so so, and for instance, we 483 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: see that consortia are forming today, and those consortia are 484 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: not the pure windfarm developers. It all wind farm developer 485 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: that are actually backed by large industrial that say I 486 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: want to have access to this renewable energy. And so 487 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: that combination of far fledged plans to completely change everything 488 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: they can do towards electrification, to do so and then 489 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: get access to large scale renewables is really something that 490 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: we see now is at the starting point, and so 491 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: helping them to make that happen by for instance, in 492 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: the in the two countries where we work, Yeah, we 493 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: have to have more north south corridors to make sure 494 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: or capacity to make sure that we bring it from 495 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: the north of Germany to the mound centers in the south. 496 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: In Belgium, we have those event projects. So that is 497 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: the missing link to bring it to industries. The the 498 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: amount of green energy bausees, because of course those go 499 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: hand in hand. You electrify on the one side, but 500 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: then you want to feed this process with green energy, 501 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: and therefore you need to make sure that you have 502 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: the infrastructure in place and the wind farms in place 503 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: that you can actually feed your industry with that. And 504 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: that would actually be a very interesting thing as well. 505 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: And I'm very much convinced that in the long run 506 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: we have actually a very very strong case to do so. Yeah, 507 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: in the renewable world. Actually they have stable cost which 508 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: are very acceptable if you look them in the current light, 509 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: and are very competitive even international case, just because the 510 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: fact that renewals are so cheap. The problem that we 511 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: have is how do you do we overcome this short 512 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: period of stress, because of course many of those companies 513 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: we talk would say, I'm fully with you. The only 514 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: problem is my balance sheet is a balance sheet that 515 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: looks like am I still alive after this winter? That 516 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: is the discussion that I have And actually to go 517 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: to the point that I need to do, I need 518 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: to double up my investments into renewables into electrifications. So 519 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: how do we help those companies to do the transition 520 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: faster because they will become much more resilient and we 521 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: will actually keep the employment in Europe and make sure 522 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: as well that we have a well anchored industry into Europe. 523 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: And so that that's for me where you see that 524 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: energy policy really starts to touch the industrial policies of 525 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: the European countries. So could be a source of competitive 526 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: advantage in a global economy if if Europe is able 527 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: to get this right and find convinced industry that there's 528 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: a clear path to get clean energy to their industrial 529 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: sites as they scale up following some sort of recovery. Right, yes, 530 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: if you look at at your Bloomberg reports, then you say, 531 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: anything you do, greenfield renewable is the winning technology each 532 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 1: time over and over again. So it's logic that if 533 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: you're the first in that transition that probably fifteen to 534 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: twenty years down the road, you have probably the most 535 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: competitive industry at that point of time because the rest 536 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: is not going to become cheaper. There will be as 537 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: well resistance from consumers that say, like, how come that 538 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: my car is not made from green steel? And so 539 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: there's a lot of let's say, logic into that, but 540 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: we have to manage a very complicated transition. And of 541 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 1: course I I can fully understand that politicians are more 542 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: busy with next winter than what we need to do 543 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: fifteen years from now, but actually they need to do 544 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: both in parallel. If we want to make sure that 545 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: you're you're including the UK and Norway remains a resilient 546 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: and competitive area on this planet. Maybe one thing to 547 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: add is what we see as well as a trend, 548 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: and it started with a couple of tech companies with 549 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: their data centers that contacted us is that they start 550 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: to see that certificates of origin is probably something that 551 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: will be seen at some moment of time more as 552 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: green washing than as of real green. You are actually 553 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: using certificates of something that was produced in the different 554 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: geography at a different moment, and you just justify for 555 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: that that you're fully green. And so what we what 556 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: what we had as a question of some of those companies, 557 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: can you help us to become really physically green? Physically 558 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: green meaning we inject somewhere with our p p A s, 559 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: with our own wind forms, with our solar PV as 560 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: much energy into the grid at the same moment as 561 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: that we use it at our demount side. So we 562 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: want to have a full transparency on a one on 563 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: one matching by the fifteen minutes, by the half hour, 564 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: that we inject exactly the same amount of energy as 565 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: that we consume, and that everything that we inject over 566 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: time will be fully green, and so that we manage 567 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: our self or portfolio as a fully flexible portfolio based 568 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: on that. Together with the people of Energy Net and Italing, 569 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: we we set together and we said, like probably this 570 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: will become a European industry question. Yeah, because people will 571 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: be multi sided. So let's make sure that we help 572 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: industry to get a track on that we only provide 573 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: at this point of time transparency, So but to help 574 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: companies to understand in a matter bettern map, how how 575 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: much is my profile matching? Am I add forty matching? 576 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: Am I a seventy percent matching? And then you can 577 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: start to talk about what are the measures I should 578 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: take to move my seventy to over the next five 579 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: to ten years. And so that's a very let's say, 580 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: interesting tool that we provide as transmission companies now to 581 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: the industry to help them to grade first transparency and 582 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: then to see how we can help them with flexibilities 583 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: and with the management of their p p A so 584 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: that they can actually move into a green over a 585 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: limited period of time. All right, So let me kind 586 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: of start to wrap this up a bit, and these 587 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: two types of flexibilities so that you building big grid 588 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: projects versus distributed flexibility solutions. Often they get framed as 589 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: if their intention with one another that doing more of 590 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: one means that you're going to do less of another, 591 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: and they're like competing alternatives. How do you do you 592 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: view this? Do you think one of them is gonna win? 593 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: Or are they complementary? No, No, they're very much complementary. 594 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: And as I said, like the micro flexibilities, you will 595 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: use typically for the short cycle short optimization that you 596 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: have the day night, the intraday kind of optimization. As 597 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: I said, your typical use is a certain amount of 598 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: heat that needs to deliver to your house, a certain 599 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: level of additional miles that need to be charged on 600 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: your battery. That's the kind of flexibility. And actually I 601 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: have a lot of flexibility to to change the timing 602 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: of that during the day, because that exactly what how 603 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: what you can do with that kind of flexibility to 604 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: one of interconnectors, the flexibility where you say, I'm managing 605 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: the big kind of things that I see, I'm managing 606 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: the combination of offshore wind blowing in a certain zone 607 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: at full force and not at all at a different zone. 608 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: So that's the kind of flexibility. So you you basically 609 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: are yielding your renewal energy somewhere in a large geographical 610 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: area like Europe, including in my opinion still always normally 611 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: in UK because I think it's it's it's it's it's 612 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: one common market that you need to manage. You yield 613 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: somewhere that energy and you bring it to the different 614 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: amount centers. That is actually what interconnectors will do. And meanwhile, 615 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 1: of course, given the market mechanism that you have at 616 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: the wholesale level, you do that in the most efficient 617 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: way so that those ones who can produce at lowest cost, 618 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: which typically are renewals, are already in the first place. Yeah, 619 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: they will, they will always produce, and then you complement 620 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: them with let's say, other sources that are a little 621 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: bit more expensive in their operation. Looking forward to not 622 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: this winter, let's say the next one. Right, if we 623 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: wanted the ready ourselves for what might be a very 624 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: similar situation in the following winter, what think regulators and 625 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: credit operators should be working through on? The simple answer 626 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: in terms of what you need to do, but not 627 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: that necessarily simple and execution is you need to make 628 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: sure that you reduce drastically the use of gas. Yeah, 629 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: so that is what you need to do. So how 630 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: can you make sure that you reduce the amount of 631 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: gas use? You can do that, of course by using 632 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: other means to produce electricity, by using other means also 633 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: during summer to save as much as you can on 634 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: the gas side, which is not easy to be done 635 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: because of course, in the merit order, etcetera. Gas plants 636 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: will probably still be playing a role, and so how 637 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: do you manage that that you avoid it that uses 638 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: there and so you use other sources and unfortunately this 639 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: is really crisis management for a winter. So you will 640 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: have the disadvantage of more coal, more more more lignite 641 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: that you will have into the system. And next to 642 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: that you have of course the nuclear plant that will turn, 643 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: and you will make sure that you use as well 644 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: every new that you have to the maximum extent. So 645 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: you try to find ways to avoid curtailment so that 646 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: you have that energy used and that it's not curtailed 647 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: and replaced by some gas consumption. Meanwhile, of course you 648 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: have to see what are the places where I can 649 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: reduce the future use of gas to the maximum extent? 650 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: Is there industrial heat that I can relatively quickly still 651 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: replaced because the project were in place and they would 652 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: do them maybe a little bit later, but they actually 653 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: can execute and there is no problem to get them done. 654 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: Can I incentivize those industrials to move from a gas 655 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: heated steam process to a electricity heated steam process. That is, 656 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: that is another thing that you can do. And of 657 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: course what you need to do structurally, because this is 658 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: more a a marathon than a sprint had there will 659 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: other winters to come, is that now you make serious 660 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: work about heat pump integration as a first priority, which 661 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: is of course more difficult than the one on EVS. EVS, 662 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: you can create incentives and and it's the other one 663 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: is about refurbishment, about making houses more energy efficient. So 664 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: you need really to go all out as of now, 665 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: but it is let's say, as I said, it's a 666 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: marathon for the next fifteen years in getting houses efficient 667 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: and getting heat pumps wherever you can use heat pumps 668 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: or city heating that is based on electricity system that 669 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: you use as well then to balance the system because 670 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: there you get the double benefit. You reduce your geopolitical 671 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: dependence and you create of course steps forward in that 672 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: energy transition, which is absolutely needed in the fight against 673 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: climate change. Yeah. So a lot of the solutions we 674 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: already know, and it's just it's just about doing them 675 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: quickly and doing them now as opposed to yes, and 676 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: they're the thing is of course that we have to 677 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: see why were there not happening before? Because actually when 678 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: you see today, they're all in the money. Yes, So actually, 679 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: if you would invest today in solar PV, it's your 680 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: payback period is is very short with current prices and 681 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: so and so there's no reason that you would not 682 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: do it if you would have the roof put as 683 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: much shoulder panels on it. That's why is it then 684 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: not happening? Why are we not happening? We see of 685 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: course the but we don't see it yet at the scale. 686 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: We could see the same for a heat pump. You 687 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: could actually could go all what what is actually blocking 688 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: is something that policy makes need to understand and really 689 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: drive on those points. And so it should be almost 690 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: like on the one hand, let's make sure that there 691 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: where we see that there is no reason that it's 692 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: going to happen, that we see what is the last 693 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: thing stopping them, Let's make it happen over there. And 694 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: then from the other one, we need to have things 695 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: like we have done in emission norms. Yeah, we tell 696 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: clearly like as of this date, it is impossible to 697 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 1: do anything else than the carbon free solutions that actually 698 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: are making us less dependent from gas. That is what 699 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: we're going to have as an objective, so that you 700 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: avoid of course, you have a transition period where you 701 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: keep it short enough that we're not investing still today 702 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: into gas fired capacity to heat houses or two eat 703 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: to heat water that actually needs to stop as fast 704 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: as we can and needs to be replaced by anything else. 705 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: And then you have this kind of refurbishment obligations that 706 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: you bring in in five to ten years, so that 707 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: people are obliged that when buy a house that they 708 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: refurbish it immediately to a certain level of efficiency standards 709 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: and a certain type of consumption and a minimum level 710 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,959 Speaker 1: of solar PV that it needs to be on the roof. 711 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: So thank you Chris for your time. I think there's 712 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: there's very few companies that can have this full broad 713 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: range of a conversation right talking about the very extreme 714 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: ends of flexibility and see it from both sides. So 715 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure to chat with you today. It 716 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: was a pleasure to be here. And as you can see, 717 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: we are in a sector which is on the move 718 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: and so interesting talk but also interesting place to work. 719 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: So if anybody hearing this would like to join us, 720 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: get in contact with US, I would say sounds good. 721 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner 722 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: of gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg an f A is a 723 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This 724 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed as 725 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: investment advice, investment recommendations, or recommendation as to an investment 726 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: or other strategy. Bloomberg any f should not be considered 727 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. 728 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes 729 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 730 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability 731 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: of this reporting is expressly disclaimed.