WEBVTT - 2: A Phoenix Rises 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:14.480 Novel. In August, I flew into Seattle to finally meet 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:19.440 the infamous Phoenix Jones. We've been texting back and forth 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:21.840 and he'd agreed to meet, so I booked a hotel 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.520 for a few days. On August one, he texted me 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.319 saying he was free later that day, so I asked 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.440 when was good for him, but he didn't respond. In fact, 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.280 he didn't respond to any of my text that day, 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:39.360 or the next or the next. While I was hanging 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.760 around waiting for Phoenix to get back to me, I 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.800 interviewed a few other Seattle superheroes and former members of 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.760 his crime fighting team, the rain City Superheroes, including one 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.960 guy who had known Phoenix since high school, and they 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.400 all told me variations of pretty much the same story. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.280 You can't trust anything that comes out of the guy's mouth. 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.400 He was charging people money per month for medical insurance 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.600 that the team's never saw. He's got a drug rob, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.920 the gambling prob. He's been disgraced from me else he's 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.679 ever been all the team. He's a narcissist, sociopath. He's 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.319 just not a He's not a good dude. If just 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.680 one of Phoenix's former teammates had been disgruntled. I think 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.959 I would have been reluctant to judge him based on 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.959 their falling out, but everyone I talked to had a 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.280 similar story, which made it hard to dismiss their assessment 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.840 of his character. But I wanted to hear Phoenix's side 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.000 of the story before I drew my own conclusions about him. Eventually, 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.560 I had to go back home. I didn't hear back 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.800 from Phoenix until a full month later, when he did surface. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.200 He texted to say that a good friend of his 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.000 had just died of COVID. He had started a new 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.240 job as a line cook, and his life was really crazy. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.720 He said, I'm really sorry for being more flaky than 0:01:54.760 --> 0:02:00.120 I usually am. Phoenix said we could meet up, so 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.000 in October I boarded another flight to Seattle for a 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.120 second attempt to hang out with him. When I landed 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:09.120 the day before I was due to interview him, I 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.840 was amped up, nervous and excited. I also had a cold, 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.280 so I decided to take some night quill and crash 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.880 early at my hotel. I took twice the recommended dosage, 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:24.240 because you know, why not, and then I got into 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:31.800 bed and started to drift off to sleep. A little 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:36.919 after ten PM, my phone rang. It was Phoenix. I answered. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.040 It was the first time we'd ever spoken. He told 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:42.840 me that he had some friends over at his place 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:44.760 and he wanted me to come over and hang out 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.360 so we could build some rapport before our interview the 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.119 next day. I said, of course, I could head straight there. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:52.760 He told me he would text me his address, and 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.880 he hung up. I got out of bed and started 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:00.200 getting dressed, but all my movements felt sluggish. This was 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.600 not how I had hoped to meet Phoenix high on 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.600 night Quill. But when the bat signal goes up, you 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.400 put on your super suit and you rise to the occasion. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.880 As I was getting dressed, he called me again. He 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.920 said he didn't feel safe texting me his address, so 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.160 he would come pick me up at my hotel. I 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.640 said that was fine and hung up, But it didn't 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.480 make any sense unless he was going to blindfold me 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.560 when I got in the car, I was going to 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.800 know where he lived. It all felt very strange and dreamy. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:33.960 He told me to meet him out in front of 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:39.280 the hotel at PM. It was cold and drizzly, so 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.840 I bundled up and stood out on the street corner waiting, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:50.040 and then at PM I got a text from Phoenix 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.840 that said, Hey, I hate to be super clicky here, 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.440 I'm having an issue over at my place and need 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.160 to rain check. One of my friends needs to write 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.960 home has been drinking, so I'll um at ten forty 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.320 tomorrow so we can talk. If that's okay, I replied, 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.800 sounds good. What I wanted to say was are you 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:14.200 fucking with me? Was this some kind of trap? I 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.040 looked around to see if maybe he was sitting in 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.960 a car like a detective on a steak out, trying 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.479 to size me up or something. I really felt like 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:24.680 he was playing some sort of mind game with me. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.600 Had his old Superhero crew. I've been right about Phoenix. 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.440 I'm David Weinberg and from the team's at Novel and 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.400 I heart Radio. This is the Superhero Complex, episode two 0:04:39.040 --> 0:05:06.039 of Phoenix Rises. I was really happy to be back 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.680 in Seattle. I used to live here in two thousand 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.200 and seven at the Panama Hotel in the International District. 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.839 I rented a room by the week and worked at 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.919 two restaurants as a dishwasher and Capitol Hill and a 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.960 bus boy in Belltown. I left years ago, but walking 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.360 the streets. Everything felt familiar. My favorite restaurant, ton V 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.800 was still there. I went back to get my go 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.520 to favorite, a plate of grilled meats and vegetables and herbs, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.280 served with rice, paper sheets, and a bowl of hot 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.880 water to soften the paper and make your own rolls. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.240 The name of the dish had changed, but it was 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.200 even better than I remembered. I walked the same route 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.240 I used to take to work from the I d 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.280 through Pioneer Square with its old saloons and red brick walkways, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.800 and then up First Avenue. They mostly felt the same. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.120 There were a few new restaurants I didn't recognize. The 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.560 Lusty Lady, a peep show venue where you sat in 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.719 a booth and put quarters into a slot to look 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.520 through a pane of glass, and new dancers had closed down. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.800 From there, I walked along the avenue past the iconic 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.880 Pipe Place market, where the fishmongers were packing up for 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.000 the day. I made my way into Belltown to Black Bottle, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:14.599 a wine and topas restaurant where I worked as a 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.720 bus boy. The walk took me through the same neighborhoods 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.320 or Phoenix and his crew did almost all of their 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.640 patrols I stopped at Black Bottle and had a drink 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.240 for old time's sake. Back when I worked there, I 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.000 was friends with a few of the homeless people who 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.760 hung out in the neighborhood. I took guitar lessons from 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.640 one of them, a crack addict named Hans, who was 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.680 really smart. Occasionally he would flip out at me and 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.240 yell a bunch of crazy stuff, but I was never 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.560 scared of him, or of any of the other unhoused 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.719 people who hung around Belltown. But today things feel a 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.679 lot different. The number of people living on the streets 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.440 feel substantially higher than when I lived there in two 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.560 thousand and seven. It seemed like there were a few 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.440 homeless people here and there, But today there are several 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:02.720 tent cities with dozens of tents all over downtown. After 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.160 I finished my walk down Memory Lane, I wanted to 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.680 see what my former neighbors in downtown Seattle had to 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.480 say about Phoenix Jones a question for a radio story. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.280 It wasn't hard to find people who had interactions with him, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.600 People like these kids I met outside of a rave. Yeah, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.800 I've seen him like a lot, a lot like bothering 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.400 drunk kids on the sidewalks and stuff like that. What 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.640 do you think about him? I thought it was cool 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.200 at first, um and then I just thought he was 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.360 annoying because he wasn't actually really helping anybody. He was 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.040 just being annoying. Like he would literally find kids that 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.119 were too drunk and passed out, or claim that people 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.360 who are about to leave were drinking and driving, even 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.040 if they weren't. He would just find anything he thought 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.040 you were breaking the law about and harass you. He 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.600 was just a jerk, they told me. He ended up 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.040 being the real life equivalent of a quote from the 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.680 Batman movie. You either die a hero or live long 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.920 enough to see yourself become the Villainy might ask you 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.040 a question for a radio story. Another guy I met 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.160 worked at a restaurant downtown. I had a few encounters 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.760 with Phoenix. One time I saw him, Uh, what was 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.840 it on the waterfront and he was talking mad and 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.800 he was talking match it to me and my friends, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.640 and it was funny because like, we work down there, 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.520 what are you doing? They made him. The guy told 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.000 me that he used to hang out with some friends 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.440 in a parking lot in Belltown when they got off work, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.360 smoking weed, kicking it, you know all I've done. Ship 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.600 One day, he was there smoking with his friends and 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.720 Phoenix showed up. Him and his crew were like just 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.240 staring at us like they're gonna, like he's gonna do something, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.520 and we're smoking weed and we're in fucking bell you know, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.080 we're sucking downtown in Belltown. It was hilarious. Like, dude, 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.000 and I read comic books. I'm not going to nerd 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:53.600 out right now, but it's just funny how there's plenty 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.800 of superhero work, plenty of people to save, plenty of 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:03.640 criminals to catch, and this motherfucker's looking at me smoking 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.480 weed right now. All of these stories made me wary 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.040 of Phoenix, and I was upset because the only reason 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.600 Phoenix had agreed to do an interview with me was 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:20.200 because we were paying him several thousand dollars. I've been 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.280 a journalist for fifteen years and I've never paid a 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:28.040 source for an interview. It's generally considered unethical, and I 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.520 understand all the arguments against it, but I'm also aware 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.520 that as a journalist, I have the power to shape 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.480 how the world sees Phoenix, and he will have to 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.960 live at the rest of his life with the consequences 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.880 of how I portray him. Meanwhile, I not only get 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.240 to walk away from the story when I'm done, I 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.520 get paid. Lots of people get paid to make this story. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.440 That imbalance of power doesn't always feel fair to me, 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.640 and I see a valid argument for paying people for 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.120 their time. The issue I had with Phoenix would that 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.960 after sharing all these stories from his former teammates and 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:07.760 from people around Seattle, I felt uneasy about rewarding him. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.440 But I also felt that Phoenix deserved to tell his 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.360 side of the story, and the only way that was 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.200 going to happen was for me to hand him an 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.480 envelope full of cash. Phoenix was late, but he did 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.000 show up to my hotel that morning. He was wearing 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.319 glasses and a blue plaid button down shirt and black pants, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.200 with a tactical belt that had a larger than normal 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.040 canister of pepper spray, along with a few other gadgets. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.280 This was deep into the COVID pandemic and he had 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.679 a mask with him, but it was made of hard plastic, 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.319 had an American flag and an eagle printed on it. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.000 I remember thinking that he looked nerdier than I was expecting. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.400 I greeted him outside the hotel and then walked him 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.360 to my room, a pretty standard chain hotel room with 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.920 a window looking out into the courtyard. I rearranged the 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.080 furniture and set up a makeshift recording studio with a 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.920 small table a couple of mikes. Phoenix actually kicked off 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.200 the interview by asking me a question. He wanted to 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.400 know what other superheroes I had talked to. Um, I've 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:19.320 talked to Red Ranger Service. Yeah, Um, Crystal Marks, she's 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.120 a clown ghost good night, Jack, Okay, you talked to 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:30.000 ghost of me Jack nice and Kay. Yeah. I was 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.600 gonna say that you probably only talked to clowns. But 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.080 the list you actually gave us pretty solid. I mean, um, 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.400 justin service like man, but Red Ranger, for example, right, 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.320 like he actually puts himself in the middle of scenarios 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.400 in situations. He's not trained, and he's not like a 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.800 skilled fighter in any way, shape or form. But but 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.760 just being there is effective. Ghosts. I've known him since 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.520 high school, one of the best crime fighters that excited 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.080 kicked you could have even if we don't like each other. Effectiveness, effectiveness, 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.400 I don't really care. Like he's fucking great at his job, 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.560 So whether he likes me or not, in go buck himself. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.960 Having critiqued the rest of Seattle's caped crusaders, Phoenix wanted 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.840 me to know that he was the only true crime 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:14.839 fighter among them. Stops three What does that mean? Yeh 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:16.800 three and fifteen crime stops like where a cop has 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.840 showed up, arrested that person and taking them to jail 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.959 for the crime I have. I have three fifteen right, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.520 no one else has even a hundred. And some of 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.880 those claimed three fifteen stops were pretty extraordinary. I stopped 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.520 a sex trafficking ring. I technically stopped a homeland active terror. 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.439 I've been in seventeen knife fights and I've been stabbed 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.240 twice and the guy got shot and I had end 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.920 stepping on his arm to stop the arterial bleed. Over 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.360 the course of the interview, Phoenix made a point to 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.959 explain that he is not a normal person. What might 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.360 cause you or I to run away in terror? He 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.839 handles like a train warrior, like this one time on 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.160 one of his early patrols where a guy pulled a 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.839 knife on him. The first guy who ever stabbed me 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:01.960 on street. I was like, hey, that was a good one. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.559 You win today. I caught him next time and beat 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.080 the crap out of him, Like, you're not gonna hurt 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.600 me in any kind of physical way to cause me damage. 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.520 I find it comical and don't even think about pulling 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.880 a gun on him. This guy tried to kill me 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:16.480 and pulled a gun and try to chase me around 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.240 a card and I took him down obviously. I mean, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.400 you have a gun at close range, I'll win every time. 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.199 And then there was the time he was scouted by 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.400 the federal government. The FBI basically wanted to like make 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.800 a list of all superheroes and kind of their activities 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.080 and what they do. And I agreed to some things 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:34.720 with the government. The government agree to some things with me, 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.440 and we went our sep away. Do you still have 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.480 a relationship with the federal government. Yeah, this was one 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.640 fact I was not able to verify. But in the moment, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.360 as Phoenix rattle off story after story of his crime 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.240 fighting exploits, I started to believe him. I think part 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.360 of it is his charisma, which is undeniable. And when 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.040 he started talking about the intricacies of the law and 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.720 the justice system and law enforcement, I realized he's one 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.560 of the most intelligent people I've ever met, and I 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.360 kind of fell under a spell. At one point in 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.440 the interview, Phoenix even turned me into one of his 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.200 martial arts students. Check this move out. This is make 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.920 fight stance back right. So now you can touch me 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.079 and I can touch you right. That's called if I'm 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.320 here right and I take a half step this way. 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.640 Now your hands don't reach anymore. It's about the circumference 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.360 and radius of a circle. One thing that is undeniably 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.920 true about Phoenix is that he was a professional mixed 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.800 martial artist and a damn good one. In his fights, 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.280 he only lost five matches. But there were other parts 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.920 of the story had my doubts about. So after our interview, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.040 I set out to verify some of his claims, starting 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:50.400 with his origin story, which perhaps unsurprisingly sounds like it's 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.800 been ripped straight from the pages of a comic book 0:14:53.920 --> 0:15:12.320 that's coming up after the break. Hmm. Every superhero has 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.000 an origin story. Spider Man bitten by a radioactive Spider, 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.400 wonder Woman carved in clay and given superpowers by the 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.960 Greek gods. Captain America, a frail young artist infused with 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.480 a super soldier serum, and the story Phoenix Jones had 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.800 been telling to the media for years sounded like one 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.720 of those classic comic book storyline, though it could also 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.600 be the origin story of a super villain. I was 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.120 wondering if we could just start at the beginning of 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.280 your life and like you could just give me your background, 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.200 like where you were born and where you grew up 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.080 and that kind of stuff. And I also want to apologize. 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:47.640 I'm sure you've answered a lot of these questions a 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.760 million times. Actually no I haven't. Because I don't answer 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:51.960 those questions. We can start to getting my crime fighting career. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.040 Phoenix said he wouldn't answer any questions about his life 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.560 before he became Phoenix Jones, which surprised me because he 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.200 had talked about his upbringing to other journalists in the past. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.920 The one thing we know for sure is that Phoenix's 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.680 real name is Ben Fodor and he was born on 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:16.000 ma that's documented in court records. But after that we're 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.320 reliant on Phoenix's account. And according to him, he was 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.280 born in Texas and he had four siblings, but he 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.000 was the only one of them to be sent to 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.120 an orphanage. He says at five years old, he was 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.160 removed from the orphanage and given back to his parents. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.800 According to that account, one day, he was riding in 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.960 the car with his dad when they stopped at a 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.400 convenient store. Ben stayed in the car and his father 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.960 went into the store and never came back. Apparently he 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.080 tried to rob the convenience store, but the store owner 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.520 had a gun and he shot Ben's dad and killed him. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.480 Ben was around seven years old at the time, sitting 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.120 in the car alone until the police showed up and 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:03.600 found him. Later in his life, Ben says he learned 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.639 that the man who was killed was not his biological father, 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.640 and that his real father was a man who had 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.280 an affair with his mother, and that was the reason 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.240 he was the only one of his siblings who was 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.679 given up for adoption. Ben has told journalists in the 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.800 past that his mom was also a criminal, a drug 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.520 dealer who got busted trying to use her baby carriage 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.480 to conceal illegal drugs. In a previous interview for a 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.480 book about his life, Ben was asked about being the 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:36.159 child of criminals. This is what he said. You have 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.320 to make a choice. You can say I'm going to 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.800 be a product of my environment. And grow into a 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.080 criminal and just be like everyone else, or you can 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:52.439 say no, I'm not going to do that. After the 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.080 man he thought was his father was killed, Ben says 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.520 he was put back into the orphanage, where he lived 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.720 for the next three years. He says he had to 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.320 let sea in a speech impediment, and he was bullied 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.040 a lot by the staff and other children. One of 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.120 his only friends at the time was a kid who 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.280 liked to torture animals. But when he was nine years old, 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.080 he was saved from all the trauma and misery of 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.960 his Texas childhood. He was adopted by a woman in Seattle, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.000 a wealthy widow who had several other adopted children. He 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.560 says that when he moved to Seattle and settled in 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.159 with his new family, it was the first time in 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.160 his life he felt truly cared for. Around that time, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.920 young Ben Photo also discovered a new world that he 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.439 fell in love with, something that would change the course 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:43.920 of his life. Comic books. That was in Nightwing. A lot. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.160 As a kid, I never really resonated with comics because 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.760 they didn't really do anything I understood, But Nightwing was 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.199 something that I understood. Night Wing is part of the 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.800 Batman's superhero family. Like Bruce Wayne, he doesn't have supernatural powers. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.399 He defends the innocent with his strength and agility. Nightwing 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.600 wears a black supersuit with the blue chevron across the chest, 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.800 similar to the gold one on Phoenix's costume Batman and 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.760 Robin Right. Robin eventually grows up and be sends his 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.000 own superhero called Nightwing. He's like, I don't want to 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.119 be a sidekick in like little Shorts. I'd rather fight 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.439 some crime. He goes through and like really trains and 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.639 he doesn't win a lot at the beginning. It's a 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.480 grind for him, and it was one of those things 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.800 where I was like, I see that, I understand that, 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.720 you know what I mean. There are a lot of 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.720 different versions of night Wing that spanned several generations of 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.480 the d C Comics universe, but the one that resonated 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.760 with Ben was the series that was written by Devin Grayson. 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.280 Devin Grayson Man, she kills it and it's like really 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:45.240 realistically believable. In March of two thousand, Grayson became the 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.960 first woman to create, launch, and write a Batman comics series. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:51.840 And it's almost as if fate had set her on 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.840 that path, given that she shares the same last name 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.680 as Dick Grayson. The guy who becomes Robin night Wing 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:04.040 is very interest because Dick Grayson starts as Robin. You know, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.399 he's there as a kind of Watson figure, Sherlock Watson figure. 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.000 He's there so Batman can talk to him. Robin was 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.520 put in to give kids somebody to identify with. This 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.000 is Peter Coogan, a man with a very specific superpower 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.879 writing and editing. I could join the X Men, but 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.760 I'd be running the writing center at the Xavier Academy. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.800 And much like the X Men, he uses his superpower 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:33.000 to help other people, to enable them to better pursue 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.000 their ontological vocation of humanization. In other words, he's an academic. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.680 I do have a PhD in superheroes. Coogan teaches superheroes 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.520 and comics at Washington University in St. Louis. He's also 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.320 the director of the Institute for Comic Studies, and he 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:52.280 spent a lot of time thinking about Nightwing. Night Wing 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:57.200 works as a really interesting figure. He lost his parents, 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.679 just like Bruce Wayne did, but because he had a 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:05.200 parent figure Bruce Wayne and another parent figure, Alfred, he 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:11.719 was able to become a more integrated adult. Dick Grayson 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:16.280 is healthier than Bruce Wayne, and so I think that's 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.640 one of the things that night Wing represents, that represents 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.880 a more healthy version of the superhero. He has chosen 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.920 to become a superhero in a way that Bruce Wayne couldn't. 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.159 When Robin becomes Nightwing, he moves to the suburbs of 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.800 Gotham City, to a rough neighborhood called blood Haven and 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.960 becomes a cop. He does that because he wants to 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.639 be part of society in a way that Batman both 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:53.240 doesn't and can't. Dick Grayson is available to be identified 0:21:53.359 --> 0:22:01.800 with as a healthier response to trauma and Batman, and 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:06.359 I think that's what draws people to him as a character. 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.960 As a young kid, his parents died in a circus accident, right, 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.280 but he could have done whatever he wanted. Batman's is different, though, 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:21.280 because when his parents die, he trains, but he has 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:26.040 this financial backing, right is I guess trauma allowed him 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.600 to be Batman, right? Night Wings make it a choice. 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.960 He goes to college, has a girlfriend, he lives a life, 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:34.680 tries to keep it all together, but he's no way 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.720 traumatized children personalized trauma. They always find a way to 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:41.240 blame themselves, like I could have done more right, and 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.920 that drives Batman, But that does not drive Nightwing. Night 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:47.240 Wing was I was helpless and I won't be helpless anymore, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.480 and that resonates him with me more. Why do you 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.320 think it resonated with you. I think as a kid, 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.280 everybody has a little sense of being helpless. I certainly did. 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:02.040 And training for a mission or a goal something like 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:06.200 that is just it's like empowering, Like you just feel 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:12.560 this like like energy that nobody knows. Ben Photo knows 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.359 that energy. Well. Whatever helplessness he felt after being given 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:20.320 away by his parents, he compensated for by throwing himself 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:26.600 into all kinds of activities. I did double dus for 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.040