1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Novel. In August, I flew into Seattle to finally meet 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: the infamous Phoenix Jones. We've been texting back and forth 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: and he'd agreed to meet, so I booked a hotel 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: for a few days. On August one, he texted me 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: saying he was free later that day, so I asked 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: when was good for him, but he didn't respond. In fact, 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: he didn't respond to any of my text that day, 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: or the next or the next. While I was hanging 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: around waiting for Phoenix to get back to me, I 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: interviewed a few other Seattle superheroes and former members of 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: his crime fighting team, the rain City Superheroes, including one 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: guy who had known Phoenix since high school, and they 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: all told me variations of pretty much the same story. 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: You can't trust anything that comes out of the guy's mouth. 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: He was charging people money per month for medical insurance 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: that the team's never saw. He's got a drug rob, 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: the gambling prob. He's been disgraced from me else he's 18 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: ever been all the team. He's a narcissist, sociopath. He's 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: just not a He's not a good dude. If just 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: one of Phoenix's former teammates had been disgruntled. I think 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: I would have been reluctant to judge him based on 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: their falling out, but everyone I talked to had a 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: similar story, which made it hard to dismiss their assessment 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: of his character. But I wanted to hear Phoenix's side 25 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: of the story before I drew my own conclusions about him. Eventually, 26 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: I had to go back home. I didn't hear back 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: from Phoenix until a full month later, when he did surface. 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: He texted to say that a good friend of his 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: had just died of COVID. He had started a new 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: job as a line cook, and his life was really crazy. 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: He said, I'm really sorry for being more flaky than 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: I usually am. Phoenix said we could meet up, so 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: in October I boarded another flight to Seattle for a 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: second attempt to hang out with him. When I landed 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: the day before I was due to interview him, I 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: was amped up, nervous and excited. I also had a cold, 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: so I decided to take some night quill and crash 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: early at my hotel. I took twice the recommended dosage, 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: because you know, why not, and then I got into 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: bed and started to drift off to sleep. A little 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: after ten PM, my phone rang. It was Phoenix. I answered. 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: It was the first time we'd ever spoken. He told 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: me that he had some friends over at his place 44 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: and he wanted me to come over and hang out 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: so we could build some rapport before our interview the 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,119 Speaker 1: next day. I said, of course, I could head straight there. 47 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: He told me he would text me his address, and 48 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: he hung up. I got out of bed and started 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: getting dressed, but all my movements felt sluggish. This was 50 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: not how I had hoped to meet Phoenix high on 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: night Quill. But when the bat signal goes up, you 52 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: put on your super suit and you rise to the occasion. 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: As I was getting dressed, he called me again. He 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: said he didn't feel safe texting me his address, so 55 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: he would come pick me up at my hotel. I 56 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: said that was fine and hung up, But it didn't 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: make any sense unless he was going to blindfold me 58 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: when I got in the car, I was going to 59 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: know where he lived. It all felt very strange and dreamy. 60 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: He told me to meet him out in front of 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: the hotel at PM. It was cold and drizzly, so 62 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: I bundled up and stood out on the street corner waiting, 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: and then at PM I got a text from Phoenix 64 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: that said, Hey, I hate to be super clicky here, 65 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm having an issue over at my place and need 66 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: to rain check. One of my friends needs to write 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: home has been drinking, so I'll um at ten forty 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: tomorrow so we can talk. If that's okay, I replied, 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: sounds good. What I wanted to say was are you 70 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: fucking with me? Was this some kind of trap? I 71 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: looked around to see if maybe he was sitting in 72 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: a car like a detective on a steak out, trying 73 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: to size me up or something. I really felt like 74 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: he was playing some sort of mind game with me. 75 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: Had his old Superhero crew. I've been right about Phoenix. 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: I'm David Weinberg and from the team's at Novel and 77 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. This is the Superhero Complex, episode two 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: of Phoenix Rises. I was really happy to be back 79 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: in Seattle. I used to live here in two thousand 80 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: and seven at the Panama Hotel in the International District. 81 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: I rented a room by the week and worked at 82 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: two restaurants as a dishwasher and Capitol Hill and a 83 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: bus boy in Belltown. I left years ago, but walking 84 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: the streets. Everything felt familiar. My favorite restaurant, ton V 85 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: was still there. I went back to get my go 86 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: to favorite, a plate of grilled meats and vegetables and herbs, 87 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: served with rice, paper sheets, and a bowl of hot 88 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: water to soften the paper and make your own rolls. 89 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: The name of the dish had changed, but it was 90 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: even better than I remembered. I walked the same route 91 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: I used to take to work from the I d 92 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: through Pioneer Square with its old saloons and red brick walkways, 93 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: and then up First Avenue. They mostly felt the same. 94 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: There were a few new restaurants I didn't recognize. The 95 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: Lusty Lady, a peep show venue where you sat in 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: a booth and put quarters into a slot to look 97 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: through a pane of glass, and new dancers had closed down. 98 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: From there, I walked along the avenue past the iconic 99 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: Pipe Place market, where the fishmongers were packing up for 100 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: the day. I made my way into Belltown to Black Bottle, 101 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: a wine and topas restaurant where I worked as a 102 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: bus boy. The walk took me through the same neighborhoods 103 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: or Phoenix and his crew did almost all of their 104 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: patrols I stopped at Black Bottle and had a drink 105 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: for old time's sake. Back when I worked there, I 106 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: was friends with a few of the homeless people who 107 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: hung out in the neighborhood. I took guitar lessons from 108 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: one of them, a crack addict named Hans, who was 109 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: really smart. Occasionally he would flip out at me and 110 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: yell a bunch of crazy stuff, but I was never 111 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: scared of him, or of any of the other unhoused 112 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: people who hung around Belltown. But today things feel a 113 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: lot different. The number of people living on the streets 114 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: feel substantially higher than when I lived there in two 115 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: thousand and seven. It seemed like there were a few 116 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: homeless people here and there, But today there are several 117 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: tent cities with dozens of tents all over downtown. After 118 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: I finished my walk down Memory Lane, I wanted to 119 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: see what my former neighbors in downtown Seattle had to 120 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: say about Phoenix Jones a question for a radio story. 121 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't hard to find people who had interactions with him, 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: People like these kids I met outside of a rave. Yeah, 123 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: I've seen him like a lot, a lot like bothering 124 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: drunk kids on the sidewalks and stuff like that. What 125 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: do you think about him? I thought it was cool 126 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: at first, um and then I just thought he was 127 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: annoying because he wasn't actually really helping anybody. He was 128 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: just being annoying. Like he would literally find kids that 129 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,119 Speaker 1: were too drunk and passed out, or claim that people 130 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: who are about to leave were drinking and driving, even 131 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: if they weren't. He would just find anything he thought 132 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: you were breaking the law about and harass you. He 133 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: was just a jerk, they told me. He ended up 134 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: being the real life equivalent of a quote from the 135 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: Batman movie. You either die a hero or live long 136 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: enough to see yourself become the Villainy might ask you 137 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: a question for a radio story. Another guy I met 138 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: worked at a restaurant downtown. I had a few encounters 139 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: with Phoenix. One time I saw him, Uh, what was 140 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: it on the waterfront and he was talking mad and 141 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: he was talking match it to me and my friends, 142 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: and it was funny because like, we work down there, 143 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: what are you doing? They made him. The guy told 144 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: me that he used to hang out with some friends 145 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: in a parking lot in Belltown when they got off work, 146 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: smoking weed, kicking it, you know all I've done. Ship 147 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: One day, he was there smoking with his friends and 148 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: Phoenix showed up. Him and his crew were like just 149 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: staring at us like they're gonna, like he's gonna do something, 150 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: and we're smoking weed and we're in fucking bell you know, 151 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: we're sucking downtown in Belltown. It was hilarious. Like, dude, 152 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: and I read comic books. I'm not going to nerd 153 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: out right now, but it's just funny how there's plenty 154 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: of superhero work, plenty of people to save, plenty of 155 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: criminals to catch, and this motherfucker's looking at me smoking 156 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: weed right now. All of these stories made me wary 157 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: of Phoenix, and I was upset because the only reason 158 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: Phoenix had agreed to do an interview with me was 159 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: because we were paying him several thousand dollars. I've been 160 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: a journalist for fifteen years and I've never paid a 161 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: source for an interview. It's generally considered unethical, and I 162 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: understand all the arguments against it, but I'm also aware 163 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: that as a journalist, I have the power to shape 164 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: how the world sees Phoenix, and he will have to 165 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: live at the rest of his life with the consequences 166 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: of how I portray him. Meanwhile, I not only get 167 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: to walk away from the story when I'm done, I 168 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: get paid. Lots of people get paid to make this story. 169 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: That imbalance of power doesn't always feel fair to me, 170 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: and I see a valid argument for paying people for 171 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: their time. The issue I had with Phoenix would that 172 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: after sharing all these stories from his former teammates and 173 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: from people around Seattle, I felt uneasy about rewarding him. 174 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: But I also felt that Phoenix deserved to tell his 175 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: side of the story, and the only way that was 176 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: going to happen was for me to hand him an 177 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: envelope full of cash. Phoenix was late, but he did 178 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: show up to my hotel that morning. He was wearing 179 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: glasses and a blue plaid button down shirt and black pants, 180 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: with a tactical belt that had a larger than normal 181 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: canister of pepper spray, along with a few other gadgets. 182 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: This was deep into the COVID pandemic and he had 183 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: a mask with him, but it was made of hard plastic, 184 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: had an American flag and an eagle printed on it. 185 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: I remember thinking that he looked nerdier than I was expecting. 186 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: I greeted him outside the hotel and then walked him 187 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: to my room, a pretty standard chain hotel room with 188 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: a window looking out into the courtyard. I rearranged the 189 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: furniture and set up a makeshift recording studio with a 190 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: small table a couple of mikes. Phoenix actually kicked off 191 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: the interview by asking me a question. He wanted to 192 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: know what other superheroes I had talked to. Um, I've 193 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: talked to Red Ranger Service. Yeah, Um, Crystal Marks, she's 194 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: a clown ghost good night, Jack, Okay, you talked to 195 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: ghost of me Jack nice and Kay. Yeah. I was 196 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: gonna say that you probably only talked to clowns. But 197 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: the list you actually gave us pretty solid. I mean, um, 198 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: justin service like man, but Red Ranger, for example, right, 199 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: like he actually puts himself in the middle of scenarios 200 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: in situations. He's not trained, and he's not like a 201 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: skilled fighter in any way, shape or form. But but 202 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: just being there is effective. Ghosts. I've known him since 203 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: high school, one of the best crime fighters that excited 204 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: kicked you could have even if we don't like each other. Effectiveness, effectiveness, 205 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: I don't really care. Like he's fucking great at his job, 206 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: So whether he likes me or not, in go buck himself. 207 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: Having critiqued the rest of Seattle's caped crusaders, Phoenix wanted 208 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: me to know that he was the only true crime 209 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: fighter among them. Stops three What does that mean? Yeh 210 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: three and fifteen crime stops like where a cop has 211 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: showed up, arrested that person and taking them to jail 212 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: for the crime I have. I have three fifteen right, 213 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: no one else has even a hundred. And some of 214 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: those claimed three fifteen stops were pretty extraordinary. I stopped 215 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: a sex trafficking ring. I technically stopped a homeland active terror. 216 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: I've been in seventeen knife fights and I've been stabbed 217 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: twice and the guy got shot and I had end 218 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: stepping on his arm to stop the arterial bleed. Over 219 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: the course of the interview, Phoenix made a point to 220 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: explain that he is not a normal person. What might 221 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: cause you or I to run away in terror? He 222 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: handles like a train warrior, like this one time on 223 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: one of his early patrols where a guy pulled a 224 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: knife on him. The first guy who ever stabbed me 225 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: on street. I was like, hey, that was a good one. 226 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: You win today. I caught him next time and beat 227 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: the crap out of him, Like, you're not gonna hurt 228 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: me in any kind of physical way to cause me damage. 229 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: I find it comical and don't even think about pulling 230 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: a gun on him. This guy tried to kill me 231 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: and pulled a gun and try to chase me around 232 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: a card and I took him down obviously. I mean, 233 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: you have a gun at close range, I'll win every time. 234 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: And then there was the time he was scouted by 235 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: the federal government. The FBI basically wanted to like make 236 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: a list of all superheroes and kind of their activities 237 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: and what they do. And I agreed to some things 238 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: with the government. The government agree to some things with me, 239 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: and we went our sep away. Do you still have 240 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: a relationship with the federal government. Yeah, this was one 241 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: fact I was not able to verify. But in the moment, 242 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: as Phoenix rattle off story after story of his crime 243 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: fighting exploits, I started to believe him. I think part 244 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: of it is his charisma, which is undeniable. And when 245 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: he started talking about the intricacies of the law and 246 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: the justice system and law enforcement, I realized he's one 247 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: of the most intelligent people I've ever met, and I 248 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: kind of fell under a spell. At one point in 249 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: the interview, Phoenix even turned me into one of his 250 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: martial arts students. Check this move out. This is make 251 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: fight stance back right. So now you can touch me 252 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: and I can touch you right. That's called if I'm 253 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: here right and I take a half step this way. 254 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: Now your hands don't reach anymore. It's about the circumference 255 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: and radius of a circle. One thing that is undeniably 256 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: true about Phoenix is that he was a professional mixed 257 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: martial artist and a damn good one. In his fights, 258 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: he only lost five matches. But there were other parts 259 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: of the story had my doubts about. So after our interview, 260 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: I set out to verify some of his claims, starting 261 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: with his origin story, which perhaps unsurprisingly sounds like it's 262 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: been ripped straight from the pages of a comic book 263 00:14:53,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: that's coming up after the break. Hmm. Every superhero has 264 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: an origin story. Spider Man bitten by a radioactive Spider, 265 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: wonder Woman carved in clay and given superpowers by the 266 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: Greek gods. Captain America, a frail young artist infused with 267 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: a super soldier serum, and the story Phoenix Jones had 268 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: been telling to the media for years sounded like one 269 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: of those classic comic book storyline, though it could also 270 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: be the origin story of a super villain. I was 271 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: wondering if we could just start at the beginning of 272 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: your life and like you could just give me your background, 273 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: like where you were born and where you grew up 274 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. And I also want to apologize. 275 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've answered a lot of these questions a 276 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: million times. Actually no I haven't. Because I don't answer 277 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: those questions. We can start to getting my crime fighting career. 278 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: Phoenix said he wouldn't answer any questions about his life 279 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: before he became Phoenix Jones, which surprised me because he 280 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: had talked about his upbringing to other journalists in the past. 281 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: The one thing we know for sure is that Phoenix's 282 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: real name is Ben Fodor and he was born on 283 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: ma that's documented in court records. But after that we're 284 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: reliant on Phoenix's account. And according to him, he was 285 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: born in Texas and he had four siblings, but he 286 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: was the only one of them to be sent to 287 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: an orphanage. He says at five years old, he was 288 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: removed from the orphanage and given back to his parents. 289 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: According to that account, one day, he was riding in 290 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: the car with his dad when they stopped at a 291 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: convenient store. Ben stayed in the car and his father 292 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: went into the store and never came back. Apparently he 293 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: tried to rob the convenience store, but the store owner 294 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: had a gun and he shot Ben's dad and killed him. 295 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: Ben was around seven years old at the time, sitting 296 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: in the car alone until the police showed up and 297 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: found him. Later in his life, Ben says he learned 298 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: that the man who was killed was not his biological father, 299 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: and that his real father was a man who had 300 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: an affair with his mother, and that was the reason 301 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: he was the only one of his siblings who was 302 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: given up for adoption. Ben has told journalists in the 303 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: past that his mom was also a criminal, a drug 304 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: dealer who got busted trying to use her baby carriage 305 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: to conceal illegal drugs. In a previous interview for a 306 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: book about his life, Ben was asked about being the 307 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: child of criminals. This is what he said. You have 308 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: to make a choice. You can say I'm going to 309 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: be a product of my environment. And grow into a 310 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: criminal and just be like everyone else, or you can 311 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: say no, I'm not going to do that. After the 312 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: man he thought was his father was killed, Ben says 313 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: he was put back into the orphanage, where he lived 314 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: for the next three years. He says he had to 315 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: let sea in a speech impediment, and he was bullied 316 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: a lot by the staff and other children. One of 317 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: his only friends at the time was a kid who 318 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: liked to torture animals. But when he was nine years old, 319 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: he was saved from all the trauma and misery of 320 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: his Texas childhood. He was adopted by a woman in Seattle, 321 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: a wealthy widow who had several other adopted children. He 322 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: says that when he moved to Seattle and settled in 323 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: with his new family, it was the first time in 324 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: his life he felt truly cared for. Around that time, 325 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: young Ben Photo also discovered a new world that he 326 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: fell in love with, something that would change the course 327 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: of his life. Comic books. That was in Nightwing. A lot. 328 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: As a kid, I never really resonated with comics because 329 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: they didn't really do anything I understood, But Nightwing was 330 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: something that I understood. Night Wing is part of the 331 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: Batman's superhero family. Like Bruce Wayne, he doesn't have supernatural powers. 332 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: He defends the innocent with his strength and agility. Nightwing 333 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: wears a black supersuit with the blue chevron across the chest, 334 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: similar to the gold one on Phoenix's costume Batman and 335 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: Robin Right. Robin eventually grows up and be sends his 336 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: own superhero called Nightwing. He's like, I don't want to 337 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: be a sidekick in like little Shorts. I'd rather fight 338 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: some crime. He goes through and like really trains and 339 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: he doesn't win a lot at the beginning. It's a 340 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: grind for him, and it was one of those things 341 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: where I was like, I see that, I understand that, 342 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. There are a lot of 343 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: different versions of night Wing that spanned several generations of 344 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: the d C Comics universe, but the one that resonated 345 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: with Ben was the series that was written by Devin Grayson. 346 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: Devin Grayson Man, she kills it and it's like really 347 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: realistically believable. In March of two thousand, Grayson became the 348 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: first woman to create, launch, and write a Batman comics series. 349 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: And it's almost as if fate had set her on 350 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: that path, given that she shares the same last name 351 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: as Dick Grayson. The guy who becomes Robin night Wing 352 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: is very interest because Dick Grayson starts as Robin. You know, 353 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: he's there as a kind of Watson figure, Sherlock Watson figure. 354 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: He's there so Batman can talk to him. Robin was 355 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: put in to give kids somebody to identify with. This 356 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: is Peter Coogan, a man with a very specific superpower 357 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: writing and editing. I could join the X Men, but 358 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: I'd be running the writing center at the Xavier Academy. 359 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: And much like the X Men, he uses his superpower 360 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: to help other people, to enable them to better pursue 361 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: their ontological vocation of humanization. In other words, he's an academic. 362 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: I do have a PhD in superheroes. Coogan teaches superheroes 363 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: and comics at Washington University in St. Louis. He's also 364 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: the director of the Institute for Comic Studies, and he 365 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about Nightwing. Night Wing 366 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: works as a really interesting figure. He lost his parents, 367 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: just like Bruce Wayne did, but because he had a 368 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: parent figure Bruce Wayne and another parent figure, Alfred, he 369 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 1: was able to become a more integrated adult. Dick Grayson 370 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: is healthier than Bruce Wayne, and so I think that's 371 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that night Wing represents, that represents 372 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: a more healthy version of the superhero. He has chosen 373 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: to become a superhero in a way that Bruce Wayne couldn't. 374 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: When Robin becomes Nightwing, he moves to the suburbs of 375 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: Gotham City, to a rough neighborhood called blood Haven and 376 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: becomes a cop. He does that because he wants to 377 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: be part of society in a way that Batman both 378 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: doesn't and can't. Dick Grayson is available to be identified 379 00:21:53,359 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: with as a healthier response to trauma and Batman, and 380 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: I think that's what draws people to him as a character. 381 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: As a young kid, his parents died in a circus accident, right, 382 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: but he could have done whatever he wanted. Batman's is different, though, 383 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: because when his parents die, he trains, but he has 384 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: this financial backing, right is I guess trauma allowed him 385 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: to be Batman, right? Night Wings make it a choice. 386 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: He goes to college, has a girlfriend, he lives a life, 387 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: tries to keep it all together, but he's no way 388 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: traumatized children personalized trauma. They always find a way to 389 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: blame themselves, like I could have done more right, and 390 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: that drives Batman, But that does not drive Nightwing. Night 391 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: Wing was I was helpless and I won't be helpless anymore, 392 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: and that resonates him with me more. Why do you 393 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: think it resonated with you. I think as a kid, 394 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: everybody has a little sense of being helpless. I certainly did. 395 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: And training for a mission or a goal something like 396 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: that is just it's like empowering, Like you just feel 397 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: this like like energy that nobody knows. Ben Photo knows 398 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: that energy. Well. Whatever helplessness he felt after being given 399 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: away by his parents, he compensated for by throwing himself 400 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: into all kinds of activities. I did double dus for 401 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: a while, won the bunch of scape competitions. I was 402 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: a national bowling champion as well as martial arts. There 403 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: was also debate, club horseshoe throwing, and even competitive dance. 404 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: He seems to have taken on every challenge he could 405 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: in an effort to prove his worth to his adopted mother. 406 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: In fact, he said in the past to journalists that 407 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: he was driven to be the best that everything he 408 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: could because he was trying to show her she made 409 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: the right decision by picking him over all the other 410 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: children at the orphanage. Everything I ever touched. If it 411 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: was a competition for it, I wanted to try it. 412 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: Although Ben has the story of his childhood with journalists 413 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: over the years, he's left out some key details, like 414 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: the names of his birth parents and the man who 415 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: he thought was his father, which makes it nearly impossible 416 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: to fact check his version of what happened. But I 417 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: was determined to verify at least some of his claims. 418 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: If you go into the National Bowling Museum in Hall 419 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: of Fame, I'm in hometown Aroics for three games under sixteen. 420 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: The International Bowling Museum and Hall of Fame refused to 421 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: release any info about Ben without his member number, which 422 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: I didn't have, but we were able to find his 423 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: old high school by process of elimination and called up 424 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: the old coach on the bowling team. She said she'd 425 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: never heard of a Ben Fodor and then said to 426 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: leave her alone. But just before hanging up, she said 427 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: that hypothetically, if she were us, she'd call up the 428 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: United States Bowling Congress and asked for member details and 429 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: They immediately dave us Ben's records and they verified that 430 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: Ben in fact did achieve two perfect scores of three 431 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: hundred and bowling under the age of sixteen. That's twelve 432 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: strikes in a row. We started calling around to bowling 433 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: alleys that were near where Phoenix lived and eventually found 434 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: a place called ken Moore Lanes. When the owner of 435 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: Joanne answered the phone, she said with a sigh, ah, yeah, 436 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: benor I know him. Ken Moore Lanes is just northeast 437 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: of Seattle, not far from the shores of Lake Washington. 438 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: You don't realize just how massive it is until you 439 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: step inside. Ken Moore Lanes was the largest bowling alley 440 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: in Washington, fifty lanes. This is Wesley used to work 441 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: at ken Moore Lanes. When you walked in, it had 442 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: like the old style of bowling alley, you know, beer 443 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: on the tables, kind of dark, but it was like 444 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: an enjoyable place where you can bring your family and 445 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: had the league nights. When I first got there, you know, 446 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: smoking was still allowed, so it still was all smoky 447 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: in there. Once smoking was banned, it got a little cleaner, 448 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: a little nicer. Some knights that get a little rowdy, 449 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: little rough, but most nice were just calm. It was 450 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: a really enjoyable place. Wesley worked at ken Moore up 451 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: until two thousand and seven when something happened. I'm actually 452 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: not allowed in ken Moore Lanes. Um band self inflicted stupidity. 453 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: That's Joanne, the owner of ken Moore Lanes. The story 454 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: of why Wesley is banned from the bowling alley is 455 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: for another time in the place. We're here to talk 456 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: about young Ben Fodor and more specifically to find out 457 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: if the origin story Phoenix is telling is true. Yeah, 458 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: I kind of do remember the first time I did 459 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: meet him. Um, we always had people come in there, 460 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: and I always like to give people help him out, 461 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: like him discounts on bowling. Uh. This lady came in 462 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: once and she had foster kids, and UH gave her 463 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: some discount of some bowling, and I remember one of 464 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: them was this like little skinny guy kid or glasses, 465 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: look a little nerdy, and he always enjoyed bowling, and 466 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: UH kept coming back and he just kept hanging around 467 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: there learning from people how to bowl. What was your 468 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: first impression of him, Oh, like he was a nerdy 469 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: little kid that got picked on at school, a little insecure, 470 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: didn't really know himself, you know, a little preteen. I 471 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: knew he was adopted. He had struggled with, you know, 472 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: being picked on and bullied as a kid and not 473 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 1: feeling accepted, and so I think the bowling alley like 474 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 1: he felt accepted there and like people wanted him. Wesley 475 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: says that Ben wasn't a natural bowler, but he was focused. 476 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: He was there all the time, learning from people that worked. 477 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: They're just watching people bowl, hanging around, just picking it up. 478 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, he worked at it. A few years went by, 479 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: and by the time Ben was in high school, he 480 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: was one of the top bowlers in his age group. 481 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: According to Wesley, he went from being the shy, insecure 482 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: kid too well the opposite around high school. All of 483 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: a sudden, this skinny little kid turns into this young 484 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: man like with muscles. All of a sudden, you know, 485 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: he starts like filling out and he starts bowling better, 486 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: starts again. Some someone to his ball. The way he 487 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: bowled is very exuberant. The way he would all of 488 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: a sudden just throw the ball, be all cocky, run 489 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 1: down the lane, start showboating. You know, this is like 490 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: a fifteen year old kid, jumping around the lanes, yelling 491 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: at his other competitors. Very enthusiastic in his bowling. Ben 492 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: wasn't just running up and down the lanes. When he 493 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: hit a strike, you would run onto the lane itself 494 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: and taking full advantage of the slick wood surface. He 495 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: would break dance at the time. He had a flat 496 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: top haircut Allah kid and play and Ben would taunt 497 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: his opponents after a strike by strutting around and showing off. 498 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: If you're the flat top baby, he always had the 499 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: flat top. He had that before fighting. He always had 500 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: the big hair. Yeah, he had a T shirt, medium 501 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: T shirt when he had the big frame, the super 502 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: small shirts. If you're the flat top, this is Marty Cocking. 503 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: He still works at the bowling alley. He loved watching Ben. 504 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: Then again, he wasn't bowling against him. Ben's opponents didn't 505 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: love being taunted by a cocky kid. He would beat 506 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: people at bowling, so they always wanted to, you know, 507 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: beat him, but it wasn't happening. And then when the 508 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: dudes doing the worm with the flat top across the 509 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: approach on you, it's pretty frustrating. Even in Phoenix's version, 510 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: of events. He's not exactly a team player. I even 511 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: got so good at bowling left handed and right handed 512 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: that I didn't have to have a double's partner. I 513 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: could bowl with myself. I had an average with the 514 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: left and right hand, so I was able to bowl 515 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: doubles with myself, which was cool because I got two 516 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: trophies every time on one. As Ben got older, he 517 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: got more into martial arts and started training to become 518 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: an m M A fighter, and he started spending more 519 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: time at the gym and less time at the bowling alley. 520 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: And then one day, Marty saw a news segment about 521 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: a certain masked vigilante who was roaming the streets of Seattle. 522 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: When he heard the voice of the man behind the mask, 523 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: he thought, that sounds like Ben before he unveiled himself. 524 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: I could tell the voice because I know him pretty 525 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: well as a kid. When you realized that Phoenix Jones 526 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: was in fact the break dancing bowler Ben Fodor, Marty 527 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: thought Ben had lost his mind. I thought he was crazy. Why, 528 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: because I mean, it's just crazy stuff. Who goes on 529 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: in Seattle is not something you really want to deal 530 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: with as a person. I'm a pretty big dude, but 531 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go out there and the rest 532 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: of my life when I have a young family, and 533 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: I just didn't understand what he was doing. Do you 534 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: remember the last time you talked to him or h 535 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: I saw him at the store. He's actually buying diapers 536 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: for somebody. It's a random person. It wasn't even his 537 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: family member, but it was somebody that needed help. I 538 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: talked to him a little bit. I was just like, 539 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: do you have another kid? But he's like, no, I'm 540 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: just helping out this family and needed some diapers. But 541 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: he literally had a cart full of diapers. It was 542 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: pretty cool, as crazy as it seems to find out 543 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: that a guy you knew for taunting rival bowlers decided 544 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: to put on a costume an attempt to fight crime. 545 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: To Joanne, the owner of the bowling Alley, it all 546 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: made sense. I wasn't surprised. First of all, it kind 547 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: of fits his personality in my opinion, and uh, Secondly, 548 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: he always seemed like a kid with a pretty strong 549 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: sense of I guess, a good moral compass. The ken 550 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: Moore Lane staff watched Ben Photor grow up. They've already 551 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: seen him reinvent himself from a vulnerable little kid to 552 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: the break dancing show boat. But every superhero origin story 553 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: needs a moment of transformation, that key incident that inspires 554 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: the hero to put on a mask and turn from 555 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: man to myth. That's coming up next. There comes a 556 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: time in the life of every superhero when they transform 557 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: from civilian to say of her. For some, it's the 558 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: story of how they got their superpower, like the scientist 559 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 1: Bruce Banner, who gets exposed to gamma rays and becomes 560 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: the Incredible Hulk. And then there are heroes like the 561 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: X Men mutants who are born with superpowers. You also 562 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: have your Batman and Nightwing types who are not blessed 563 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: with supernatural abilities but achieve a kind of superhuman status 564 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: through training and an arsenal of fancy gadgets and weapons. 565 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: But what they all have in common is that there 566 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: comes a point in their life when they look out 567 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: at the injustice of the world and say to themselves, 568 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: this has to end, and I am the one who's 569 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: going to take on this fight for ben Photor. That 570 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: moment happened in two thousand and nine at Wild Waves, 571 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: an amusement park in the suburbs of Tacoma, Washington with 572 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: roller coasters and carnival games, kids with wrinkled fingers shivering 573 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: in line for water slides. Phoenix had taken his son 574 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: and they just finished a day of fun. We parked 575 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: our car outside the fence and we were walking. It 576 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: was me and my son, and we were racing back 577 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: to the car. Me and my son are running and 578 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: uh al sudd he falls and I'm like, oh, that sucks, 579 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: so I want to pick him up, and just starts 580 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: gushing blood like everywhere right, and I'm like, what's going on. 581 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: I look and he's got this big cut in his 582 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: knee from like here to like there, and his knees 583 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: open and you can see the bone. He's just gushing blood. 584 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: And if someone had smashed my window and the glass 585 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: was on the ground and he had slipped on that, 586 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: so I called nine one. Immediately he got an ambulance. 587 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: It was like an yard trip, like he had to go. 588 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: And I called the cops and the cops said, oh, 589 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: but there's really nothing you know, we can do. I'm like, 590 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: what are you talking about, Like the windows smashed, there's 591 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: cameras everywhere, like what, like, well, we don't really you know, 592 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: investigate that kind of thing. It's less than damage, and 593 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: it's a Your son wasn't hurt by an actual criminal. 594 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: Your son was hurt by falling on the shop. Ridiculous. 595 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: Ben was furious. Not only was he convinced that the 596 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: assailant had been captured on one of the many security 597 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: cameras nearby, he also had a key piece of evidence. 598 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: When that guy broke my window, he had taken a 599 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: rock in a ski mask and slammed it into my window, 600 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: And I thought, I keep the master, turning to the 601 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: cops for evidence, But the cops didn't want it, and 602 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: they weren't interested in any kind of evidence. It was 603 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: ridiculous how unhelpful they were. Ridiculous. Ben stowed the mask 604 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: in his glove compartment and decided that he would not 605 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: rest until justice had been served. I spent the next 606 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: four months searching through publicly accessible traffic cams until I 607 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: was able to figure out which car did it. Then 608 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: I got a private investigator to track that guy's number down, 609 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: and then I went to his house and actually had 610 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: a conversation with that guy and drug him to where 611 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: my son was at and made him apologize. It was 612 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: that moment when my friends were with me, which was 613 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: Ghost and another guy. They were like, man, this is 614 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 1: like Batman stuff, bro, you just did Batman style stuff. 615 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, we got like some 616 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: free time. Let's just go and Batman up our neighborhood 617 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: because it sucks where we live. A few weeks later, 618 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: Ben was outside a club in Seattle where he and 619 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,399 Speaker 1: his breakdancing crew, the rain City Movement. We're taking part 620 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: in a competition. My friend comes stumbling up and he's 621 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: got this big gash his face and I'm like, what 622 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: happens that guy hit me with a stick. And I'm like, well, 623 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: no one's doing anything. It's crazy, Like you guys are stupid. 624 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: What we gotta do something right? And it just hit me. 625 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: I've got that mask. At this time, I'm not sure 626 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: if what I'm about to do is legal or illegal. 627 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: I just know I'm about to do something. So I 628 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: ran to my car and I throw this mask on, 629 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: ditched the shirt and the jeans, no shirt in his mask, 630 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: and I take off after this dude. I chased him 631 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: all the way down the street and I catch him. 632 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: Ben trapped the guy until the police showed up and 633 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: arrested him, but before the cops left, they asked Ben 634 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: if they could take a photo with him. The cop 635 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: and I snapped a photo, and the next day it 636 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: said costume nerds attack crime in Seattle on the small 637 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: right side corner of the Seattle Times. It was me, 638 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: my arms folding everything, and I were looking at and 639 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's gonna stick. Now. There is, 640 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: of course, the question of whether or not this origin 641 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: story is even true, And I have to admit that 642 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: the first time I heard Phoenix tell it in an interview, 643 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: long before I met him, I thought the story was preposterous. 644 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: But when I heard it directly from him in person, 645 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: it all sounded a lot more plausible. But whether or 646 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: not it's true, I think there is something very telling 647 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: about the way that Phoenix told me his origin story. 648 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: In his telling, the moment he decides to become a 649 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: real life superhero is not when he takes down his 650 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: first criminal. It's not even when he takes down his 651 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: second criminal. It's the moment he sees a photo of 652 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: himself in the newspaper. It just like hit me and 653 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: I was like, costume superhero, costume nerd Ataxiattle like that, 654 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: So that's me I'm gonna do this. Maybe it was 655 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: simply that the validation of the outside world gave him 656 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: the confidence to pursue the life of a real life superhero. 657 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: Or maybe he got a taste of fame and he 658 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: liked it, or maybe it was a combination of the two. 659 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 1: Either way, he was hooked. But now he needed a name. 660 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: Costume Nerd isn't exactly the kind of moniker that strikes 661 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: fear into the hearts of criminals. No, he needed something 662 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: a little snapp here, something like Phoenix Jones. Phoenix always 663 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: claimed that his early years have been rough, much like 664 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: those of his hero, the comic book character Nightwing, and 665 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: like night Wing, Phoenix refused to let the trauma of 666 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: his childhood define him. Maybe that's why he was so 667 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: unwilling to discuss it with me. As origin stories go, 668 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: it may well seem a little too perfect, But whether 669 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: or not it's true, one thing is for certain. Phoenix 670 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: did undergo radical transformation from concerned citizen to kick ass 671 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: costume warrior, and you can't take that away from him, 672 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: even if he's not the most reliable narrator. Back in 673 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: the parking lot at Wild Waves, Phoenix discovered that he 674 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: had the power to fight crime by chance. When he 675 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: be came a victim and could not get the help 676 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: he needed from the people who were supposed to serve 677 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: and protect him. In the future, things would be different. 678 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: He would no longer wait for crime to find him. 679 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: From now on, he would place himself in harm's way, 680 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: heading out into the night looking for trouble, hunting criminals 681 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: and stopping them in their tracks. Phoenix started out as 682 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: one man with a mission, standing alone against the odds. 683 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: But what he didn't know was that all around him 684 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: in Seattle, there were people who shared his dream of 685 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: defending the streets, and when they heard about Phoenix Jones, 686 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: they would rise up to join forces with him. So 687 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: look out, bad guys, because Phoenix Jones is coming for you, 688 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: and soon he won't be the only superhero in town. 689 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: The Superhero Complex is hosted and written by Me David 690 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: Weinberg and reported by Me, Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham. 691 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 1: Production from Amalia Shortland and Caroline Thornham. Sean Glenn, Max 692 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: O'Brien and David Waters are executive producers. Fact checking by 693 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: Andrew Schwartz. Production management from Sharie Houston, Frankie Taylor and 694 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas Alexander 695 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. 696 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: Original music is composed by Paul Housden. Special thanks to 697 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: Peter Tangan, Willard Foxton, Matt O'Mara, Katrina Norvelle Beth and Macaluso, 698 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: Rin Rosenbaum, Shelby Shankman, and all the team at U 699 00:39:48,480 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: t A. For more from Novel, visit novel dot Audio