WEBVTT - Mike Young on the Fields 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:04.680 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:09.120 Today's episode is brought to you by ourselves, the Frida 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.360 Egg Pro Shop. It's holiday season. We have a big 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:18.720 selection of stuff. We've got apparel, hats, all kinds of 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:24.919 T shirts, hoodies, sweatshirts, Fried Egg, Shotgun Start branded stuff, 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.360 and then also a large print shop. So if you 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.720 go over there, you're bound to find something that is decent. 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.120 You know, if you like the Fried Egg, support us 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.280 by checking out our pro shop. 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It's twenty percent off. 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:26.319 It'll automatically be accounted for it discount. You don't need 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.280 any codes just or at checkout, So just go order 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.960 what you want and you'll get twenty percent off everything 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.160 that includes prints, all apparel. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:36.039 It's a good deal. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:41.880 The website is proshop dot Thefridagg dot com. That's where 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.120 you can get to it proshop dot Thefridagg dot com. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.760 Today's episode is with golf course architect golf course owner 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.560 Mike Young. Mike has been in the business for a 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.960 long time. Mike built his first golf course, the Fields 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:02.480 in Lagrange, Georgia. Talk extensively about that. That was built 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.280 in the late eighties. He built it by himself. He 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.239 was really, you know, one of the first design build guys, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.120 along with Tom Doak and Bill Corr. So Mike's got 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:18.560 a lot of experience and after a year's in architecture, 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.040 he has bought and manages some golf courses. So we 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.360 talk a lot about the golf management side. So, without 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.160 further ado, here is Mike Young. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.320 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.440 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:35.480 And when I find my ball in a bright egg 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.560 Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida, egg Frida, egg Frida, egg 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:40.360 brigg Frida, egg bride egg lie. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.600 I'm about ready to run off of the course. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.560 I'm interested to talk to you about how you got 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:59.400 into golf design in the first place. You know, in general, 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.640 you were you were a turf equipment sales rep. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.120 Right, Yeah, But I did that on purpose. I did 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.400 that with the intention of getting into golf design. But 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:14.160 I was I'll go back to the start, and I 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:19.960 was in boy Scouts and I had a I didn't 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.360 have one of the freaky Scout masters, but I was 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:27.200 in boy Scouts and I had watched him build a 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.000 golf course near me, and I said, I want to 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:36.000 learn to design golf courses. I'm sixteen. So my senior year, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.720 my dad said, you can't get out until you become eagle. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.080 So I had to do the Eagle Scout thing. So 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.240 they take all the Eagle Scouts in the state and 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.640 they put us up at the High Regency in Atlanta, 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.840 and they bring a mentory in for two days and 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.600 he talked to you about what you want to do, 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.720 and I said, well, I want to design golf courses. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.680 So they bring me this guy. He's a big architect, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.840 that John Portman, who did all a lot of the 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.240 big buildings in Atlanta and all over the world. He says, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.160 I don't know anything about that stuff. But there's a 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.160 guy out here's supposed to be good that's building the 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.800 Athletic Club, and he's building a place down here on 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.760 the side of lind And it's Robert Trent Jones Junior, 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:23.440 Robert Trent Jones Senior, and his guy was a guy 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:29.080 named Ron Kirby there. And I went out there and 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.520 I was picking up rocks and doing all this one day, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.080 and then they had me go out and meet Ron Kirby, 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:40.160 and I was just a little kid. He says, well said, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:41.480 if you're going to get into stuff, you got to 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.479 go through the turf business or something like that. And 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.000 I'm like, yeah, right, whatever. So it went away. Never 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.200 thought about it much anymore of getting in it that way. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:55.800 And after school I started thinking about it, and I 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.120 remembered what he'd said. So I started researching, and I 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.800 found the Toro to distributor, and I said, hey, you 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.680 got to let me go to work. I want to 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.880 call on golf courses where I can see everything and 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.040 and learn this business and I do not, And he's like, well, 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.080 nobody can be a golf architect. It's just not that many. 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:17.640 I said, well, that's what I want to do, and 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.240 I don't want to work for one because I don't 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.479 want to be in an office. So I started taking 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:28.040 pictures and going around seeing superintendents and calling on new construction. Uh, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.360 And I liked it. I did it that way. 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.840 That's obviously a unique approach. I mean, most people go 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.919 and work for an architect. What what you know doing 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.640 it that way? What advantages do you think you get? 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:43.279 It gave you. 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.039 Well, I'm not the first one to do it that way, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:48.839 but there were some there's some others who have done that. 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:53.159 But it if you go work for an architect and 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.520 you sit in the office and you're drawing or rendering 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.000 or whatever. You've got his thoughts, his ideas, and you 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:07.080 follow that family tree or something. But if you're calling 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.719 on these guys, you can walk in every one of 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:15.200 them's office, which I did, and you can see you 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.479 come to your own conclusions. And then because you didn't 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.840 work for him, whenever you come out of the turf 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.120 business to start your own thing, it sort of pisses 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.600 them off. And they don't consider you qualified or whatever. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.520 Yeah, that's it's interesting because I kind of think about it. 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.400 I got into golf from outside of golf, and I 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.040 came in without certain notions that get built in. And 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.360 if you work for an architect, I imagined a certain extent, 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:49.800 your thoughts and opinions and ideas get shaped by that architect, 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:50.880 whether you know it or not. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:56.000 Yeah, I think that. You know. I had four or 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.160 five years where every day I would see four or 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.920 five golf courses and I would take slides and I've 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:06.680 still got most of them. And you would see the 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.520 old classics or the old courses, not all of them 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.640 were classic, and then you would see some of the 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.760 new stuff as being built and you're like, man, I 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.400 don't know that I'm into that or whatnot. And so 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.880 you weren't shaped where if you were in that office, 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.760 you were sitting there learning things that were modern golf. 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:34.120 For instance. I just remember being at one architect's office 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.280 and I was talking to him one day, just driving 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.600 him crazy, you know. And on all your old courses, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.360 because people walked, you always walked into the front of 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.360 the green, so you approached the green from the front, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.960 but with golf cars, you approach it from the side. 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.960 And so they would design these golf courses to where 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.760 they made sure there were no bunkers or anything, or 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.080 they had an easy way to get into the walk 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:00.880 onto the green from side the hole. 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.440 And I'm like, they decided around the cart path. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.040 But that's common when you start. Yeah, it's designed around 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.160 the cart path. In other words, Hey, they're gonna get 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.120 out here, so let's don't put a bunker here, because 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.720 we want to have plenty of room for not to 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.320 wear it out. And I'm like, that's not what all 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.880 this is about where And so naturally I was if 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.520 I if I built one where you had bunkers or 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.239 something there, then I didn't know what I was doing. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:28.720 That kind of that kind of stuff. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.720 You know, when you're seeing five courses a day, I 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.800 assume you were mostly around the southeast. Were there any 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:41.520 courses that really stood out to you old or new 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.640 that you know from you know, obviously the bunker story 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.520 with the cart path, But were there ones that stood 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.480 out to you and said I like this? And then 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.800 were there ones where You're like I don't like this? Yeah, 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.640 distinct ones, you know, Yeah. 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.640 You know, there were some of those, plenty of those. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.520 Any examples of the good ones. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.760 Well, you know, Palmetta Club definitely stood out and people 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:14.000 weren't really talking about it. The Dick Wilson course that 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.000 nobody talks about called Mountain Mountain View down at Callowi 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.080 Gardens was really in good shape. Then it was a 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.040 good golf course. It stood out. You could see that 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:29.839 it was it was thoughtfully done. Atlanta Country Club is 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:34.280 one you don't ever hear about. That was that I liked. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:37.000 What did did you? 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.520 You know, your early days and this is obviously these 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.960 travels are shaping the way you're thinking about golf. Were 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.680 like the common things that you saw and courses that 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:47.200 you liked? 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:48.880 You know, what would did? Did you? 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.920 Were there threads about, you know about the things that 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.959 you saw, and I imagine in many ways those were 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.040 rarer than the ones that you kind of looked at 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.720 and said, ah, you know golf course. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:08.040 Yeah, the I guess I had my eye for art, 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.000 and whether you know, you don't ever know if it's 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:11.840 a good eye or not unless people hire you to 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:16.400 do another one. But I heard somebody once say that 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.480 a lot of people want to find the golf course 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.840 and then other people want to move the golf course there, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.040 and so, like you sort of, my philosophy is is 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.760 to start with that steak and build out a lot 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:36.640 of the signatures and all. Because they're used to marketing 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.800 themselves to sell real estate and all that, are given 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.840 a piece of property and they start on the outside 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.320 and build in. In other words, I got to put 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.560 the hole here. So they start moving a lot of 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.640 dirt and holds get up in the air, and I 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.480 probably my biggest thing was trying to keep it down 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.240 on the ground. And when I built my first one 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.760 nineteen eighty eight eighty nine, everything I kept it down 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.320 did we didn't do it. And so people are like, well, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.160 you can't do that. You got to get the greens up, 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.800 you got to do this all these technical aspects. And 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.840 I wasn't worried about the technical aspects out it because 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:14.600 my ground was sloping and I knew I could drain 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:19.520 the water. So uh, I just I just think you 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.920 got to find the hole and then carve it out 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.760 from there. I'm not into bringing dirt in to build 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:26.080 a hole. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.679 Let's let's talk about your first designed the fields. How 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.080 did you get that opportunity? 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.200 Well, I was in the turf business or the equipment business. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.600 So you'd go to the trade shows and I'd met 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.960 guys you had a I was building a network, and 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.600 I knew a guy that was a seed salesman, and 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.040 he grew up in the pecan business, and he was determined. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.920 He wanted to build a golf course. And I knew 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.560 that people weren't gonna let me build one, so I 0:11:55.600 --> 0:12:01.120 just I said, look, let me build this thing, and 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.520 I won't charge anything. We'll trade for a lot or 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.560 something like that. And he said okay. So I routed 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.560 it started going down there. In the afternoons. We'd we 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.040 had a skid steerloader and we had a small dozer 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.680 and we'd work on it, work on it and have 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.120 guys move rocks during the day. Took two years. And 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.480 then while I was building it, I got two other jobs. 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:32.440 It's yeah, and that's hot and the the uh. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.920 The first one, the first one I got. This guy's name. 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.839 His name was little Boy. He had one of these 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.080 El Camino trucks. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:42.320 Was he a little boy? 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:43.960 No, not at all. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.000 Most people of the nickname little boys aren't little boys. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:54.440 No, So little boy, little Boy comes down of the 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.520 course and he says, I hear you're building this golf 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.960 course and so and so liked it or something, and 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.120 he says, I want to build one. And it was 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.280 up in Atlanta. It was where Atlanta was developing, up 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.520 four hundred. He says, can you come look at my land? 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.439 So I said sure, he said, he said when I 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.120 said when do you want me to? He said tomorrow. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.080 So I go up there the next day and I 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:19.880 look at it and I said, this just won't work. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.640 It's solid rock and it's straight up and down. He said, okay, 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.920 hold on, let me find some more. I'll call you back. Well, 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.160 I start home. By the time I get home, he's called. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.000 He said, I got another piece. Can you come back tomorrow. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:40.319 I go back the next day and he says, how 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.040 is this? I said, this will work. We can do this. 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:48.000 And so he had a big country music park on 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.439 the lake in Atlanta that had a lot of big 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.760 country music stars come there. And that was what they did, 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:58.280 was that and chicken processing. So he says, well, how 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.760 much is this going to be? Said, well, it'll be 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:06.480 a couple of million dollars. Uh, you know, to build 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.440 what we were doing it. So he writes me check 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.680 for me, and he said here and I'm hold on 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.560 the side. We got a we got the latest thing. 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.800 You know, we got to permit it. He says, well, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:23.760 we don't want to do all that up here. You 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.520 don't have to do that, and I'm like, yeah, we do. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:30.760 So we started that. And meanwhile, I go back two 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:32.960 weeks later and I go up to the hill and 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.640 there's one hundred golf cars there. I said, what the 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.040 hell have you done? He said, I'm digging a basement 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.880 over there for the clubhouse, and said I went down 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.600 to athletic club bought all their used carts or something 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.120 they were turning in so we'd have some cars. That 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.360 was my second one, and it was just a matter 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.160 of me. They were really good clients, but it was 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.560 just keeping them under control. These guys they were rolling and. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.200 Then it sounds like they were very impulsive. 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.480 Very pulsy. But we went from there. So it was 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.280 it was not the refined country club client. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.600 So with the fields, you get this job and you 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:16.240 hadn't never done any of this before. No, so the 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.360 dozer gets delivered or there. What how talk me through 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.920 like the first few days when you're just getting on 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.160 the dozer and doing this. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.320 Well, we had a we had a guy that could 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.480 run a dozer, and I'd start sort of showing him 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:31.920 what I want to do, and then I'd learned the 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.360 dozer and this was an old dozer, and then I'd 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:35.880 get on it and mess around some and then the 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:37.560 other guy would get on it and then we'd get it. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:40.840 You know, it's like taking a log and making it 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.400 into lumber and finally seeing it down in the furniture. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.960 So we probably took five times the amount of time 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.640 a guy that knew what he was doing could do. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:54.560 And then we just kept doing everything. We built USGA 0:15:54.680 --> 0:16:00.440 greens and we that was a process. We got a 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.960 guy to help us with that. Once we learned how 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.680 to do it, we did the rest of ourselves. But 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.320 floating them out and everything took a while. We put 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.040 in the irrigation, uh and one of the partners was 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.280 a dentist, and that that guy would go out every 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.840 afternoon put the pipe in the ground. He had a 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:22.680 ball doing that and it was I mean, it was 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.520 done just just that way. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.360 So this is before and you know for everybody this project, 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.680 everybody gives obviously Todd, who is it regular here? A 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.560 good friend of yours. All the credit for being the 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.240 first design build guy to come back really, you know 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.280 with high Point and corn Crunchhaw obviously with sand Hills, 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.280 and but this is before both those, and it's just 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.720 you and a couple of guys out there building the 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:51.280 golf course. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.200 Huh yeah. And I think that those guys were we 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.040 were all about the same time. I think Tom and 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.880 I really the first good pieces of land and Goodman's 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.160 I got. We've always done design build, and it's it's 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:12.439 a delicate subject because for so long it it it 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.400 was like, well, you can't do this. It's not fair 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.280 to the client. You know, you could you could be 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.679 screwing the client or whatever. And you can't be an 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.960 architect if you're also building it. And I just didn't care. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:31.639 But some of the so called professional architects considered it 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.359 a no no to build your own courses. And now 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.760 looks like they're coming full circle. But I still have 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:45.160 my theories that that's when Dick Wilson was doing his thing, 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.480 that was he was not professional enough for some of them. 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.160 That's when him and Jones started having their conflicts. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:57.119 Yeah, it you know, for you had to be you know, 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.760 obviously you alluded to the fact that you took a 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:04.399 night traditional route into architecture, which probably you know, rubbed 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.520 some of the profession of the wrong way. And then 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.480 you get into architecture and you take a non traditional 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.240 route of constructing a golf course, which you know probably 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.359 saved a lot of money for your clients, and you know, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.120 but it also you know, you were you were somebody 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.080 doing something different, which always you know, ruffles feathers, right. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.280 Yeah, I think so. I think it's as you get older, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.439 you realize you might have ruffled them, but because you 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.560 were taking a job that they would have otherwise gotten, 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.159 and naturally they're going to tell them you don't know 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.040 what you're doing, and you did this wrong or you 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.280 did that wrong. And that used to just really piss 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.959 me off. Now like, well, I don't know that there 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:49.560 is any wrong in this business, dude. 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:51.280 Yeah. Yeah. 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:56.719 So the field, you know, it opens and it eventually, 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.920 you know, lives the course of life a different owner, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.320 and it comes up for sale and you you purchase 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.600 it back. Talk about that whole experience, and now you're 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.240 now you're not only a golf architect, but also a 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:12.720 golf course owner. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:19.840 Yeah, we've owned four different courses different times. And you know, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.360 my son when he got out of school, he came 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.520 to work with me and probably knows as much as 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.560 he's been building golf courses and designing with me for 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.560 twenty years now. He's forty two years old. And Ashley, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.000 I said, hey, let's put our office down here, and 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.760 you moved down here. So office is upstairs and he 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.280 does everything from there. It's just a base and he's 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.000 learned the agonomics off of Google. I mean, he's he's 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.040 got a finance degree and he likes being outside, so 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:59.760 he got on Google and we've he does the superintendent 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.600 work and then he's travels to the different sites wherever 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.840 we're working on golf courses. I mean, he was in 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.760 Costa Rica for two and a half years building that course, 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.320 and uh he's been designing and building and might be 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:19.800 a lot better than I am because he's uh oh, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:21.280 he's a little more laid back. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:23.919 Oh. 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.520 You know, it's not necessarily better for certain things, you know, 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.720 not always the uh it could be, could be, you 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.720 could be better for different situations, you know. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.920 That's right, That's and that's what I think often that's 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:35.520 how it happens. 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.280 He might not have been able to deal with little 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:38.880 Boy the way you deal dealt with him. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:42.400 I had little boy rowing little boys, and little boy 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.840 was a big concrete pumper. That's what he did. He 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.840 pumped concrete. He was a mess. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:49.840 What was that golf course called? 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.919 It was called country Land and it's still there. It is. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.040 It's six thousand it's right in the middle of all 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.240 the growth in Atlanta. It's six thousand yards long, and 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.280 they cover it up. I mean they play. I don't 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.560 know how many rounds they play. But it's on Georgia 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.520 four hundred and it's just a little golf course that 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:11.960 we just shaped out. And the guy had shaping with me. 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.679 There was a guy named Craig Mitz, and Craig had 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:20.399 been with Fozzio and Craig was an architecture nut. And 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:25.040 he got out of Houston and his father had been 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.880 the head pro at Westchester and the head pro at 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.480 Shady Oaks, and he traveled tour with Hogan and he 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:34.640 was like second in the master. His name was Dick 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.480 Mitz and you'd look up Dick and Dick was so 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.480 Craig was a nut. All he did was take pictures 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.160 on the weekends of golf courses and he's a really 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.199 good shaper, and he would take the Hispanic dudes and 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.320 at six point thirty they'd do calisthenics. He'd have two 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.800 that'd cook lunch every day. Craig just worked on that 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.000 deal with me and he really did some good shaping. 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:59.000 And it's a six thousand yard deal that's just nobody 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.639 hears about, and they covered up with people playing it. 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.720 It's right up and coming Georgia. 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.360 It's interesting you talk about Craig mess and how he 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.840 was like a serial photo taker of golf courses. You 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:18.600 would go to all the different potential customers and customers 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.480 and take photos. And you know, not a lot has 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.800 changed because I go to golf courses and take a 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.320 ton of photos, but you know, the mediums and the 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:31.760 access the information has changed. How was it watching kind 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.040 of the internet and how golf architecture changed. Talk a 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:40.080 little bit about that because obviously from you know, your 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.359 time when you started in the late eighties to now, 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.040 you know, the spread of information is just completely different. 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.800 Yeah, you know that book Outliars, You might have read it. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.920 It's I was born about the right time. So we're 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:00.359 to where there was opportunity to do golf courses. Guys 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:04.040 now don't have that opportunity. So when I'm selling, man, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.600