1
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with

2
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,360
Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm

3
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,079
Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My

4
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,440
Speaker 1: guest is Julia Borston, senior Media and Tech correspondent for CNBC.

5
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,680
Speaker 1: Borston is no stranger to entertainment industry insiders. She's been

6
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: CNBC's Hollywood correspondent for years, but during the pandemic, she

7
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: found time to pursue a passion project, writing a book

8
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,480
Speaker 1: about female leaders in business. Let me tell you, listeners,

9
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 1: this is no breezy read, nor is it dominated by

10
00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,960
Speaker 1: interviews with the usual suspects when it comes to women

11
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,519
Speaker 1: business leaders. Borston did her homework and her research. The

12
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 1: book is organized by broad themes that are probed in depth.

13
00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,320
Speaker 1: It's not platitudes about girl bosses. It's deeply report ordered

14
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: with facts and figures to back up her assertions that

15
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,760
Speaker 1: female approaches to running companies are very often good for business.

16
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:13,200
Speaker 1: Borston has the receipts on how women leaders lead into innovation, sustainability,

17
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,679
Speaker 1: and have a knack for finding discreete markets where money

18
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: is being left on the table because others don't see

19
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: a need or profit potential, and she pulls no punches

20
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,720
Speaker 1: in calling out the venture capital community for the pitifully

21
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 1: small volume of investment dollars that flow into female adventures

22
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:44,759
Speaker 1: every year. That's all coming up after the break. M Hey,

23
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,520
Speaker 1: thanks for sticking around. We're back now with more on

24
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: the power of women in leadership from CNBC's Julia Borsen.

25
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: Julia Borston, senior median technology correspondent for CNBC A face

26
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,640
Speaker 1: that Hollywood business watchers no well from her terrific reports

27
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 1: and crack interviews with top CEOs, Julia Borston has written

28
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: a book called When Women Lead. It is terrific. It

29
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,640
Speaker 1: is full of scholarship and data. This is not a

30
00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 1: breezy beach tread. It is a deeply reported, really intelligent

31
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to underscore intelligent look at what it

32
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 1: means the impact of women in business, what it means

33
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,919
Speaker 1: to have female leadership rising slowly but rising up through

34
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: the ranks in this country and around the world. It

35
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,920
Speaker 1: is a book with a truly global focus. It's a

36
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,080
Speaker 1: I am just absolutely staggered at the research and data

37
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 1: that went into it. And I'm going to start with

38
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: the question that everybody probably asks you, Julia Borstein, who

39
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: is on CNBC all the time covering this most dynamic business,

40
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 1: how on earth did you find the time to right

41
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: this deeply reported book. You know, I was very lucky,

42
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 1: um that during the pandemic, I was safely at home

43
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: with my family, and I was broadcasting from home. As

44
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen you in all sorts of different

45
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 1: cities around the country, at different conferences and things. But

46
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,000
Speaker 1: my travel came to a halt and I set up

47
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,800
Speaker 1: a little studio in my house, a studio which has

48
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: since moved several times, but gone where the you know,

49
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 1: the days on the road gone, Where the afternoons and

50
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,919
Speaker 1: evenings out and events. I was really locked down, and Um,

51
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: I had started working in a book proposal before the

52
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,320
Speaker 1: pandemic started, and once the pandemic hit, I thought, I

53
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 1: have this window. I'm at home, I'm not socializing, I'm

54
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 1: not out on the road. I need to use this

55
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 1: time and get this proposal out and get this book written.

56
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 1: And I felt like I had this deadline looming, and

57
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: I thought, any day now, any week now, the pandemics

58
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 1: can be over, so I should really get as much

59
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 1: done as I can now, so as a result, it

60
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,520
Speaker 1: was incredibly efficient. But the beauty for me of this

61
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 1: time at home is that everyone was at home, and

62
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,560
Speaker 1: people who might have been really hard to get interviews

63
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: with are hard to nail down, were available. And I

64
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 1: had so many interviews with people when they were walking

65
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 1: their dogs, or when they were hiding in their closet

66
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: trying to get a break from their young children, or

67
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: when they were cooking dinner, and women just opened up

68
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: to me. And I spent hours and hours on zoom

69
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: and on the phone in people's really felt like I

70
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 1: was in their homes, and so A I had a

71
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: lot more access b I think that the conversations ended

72
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 1: up being much more intimate and personal because not only

73
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 1: was I in their homes with them at this time

74
00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 1: um when everyone was kind of going through something together,

75
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: but also there was a sense that the world stopped

76
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,119
Speaker 1: and everyone was taking a step back and thinking about

77
00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: their purpose, thinking about why they were doing what they

78
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,719
Speaker 1: were doing, What was their management strategy, why did they

79
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 1: care about leading in a certain way, How do I

80
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 1: connect with my employees, what are my goals? And so

81
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 1: it was actually a really important moment for these leaders

82
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,000
Speaker 1: to think about what they were doing and also for

83
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 1: me to connect with them and also see how they

84
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 1: were facing the biggest challenges of our time. What in

85
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,280
Speaker 1: truly inspired you to want to want to look at

86
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: this area. So I've been at CNBC for sixteen years.

87
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,919
Speaker 1: I have the most amazing job. As you know, the

88
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 1: media and tech industry has changed so much in that

89
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 1: time and that moment never a dull moment. And I

90
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 1: have these two projects that I love at CNBC. One

91
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 1: is the Disruptor fifty List. I launched it over ten

92
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 1: years ago, and I wanted to look at the fascinating

93
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: startups that were transforming business before they go public. Scenbcs,

94
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,000
Speaker 1: of course focused on public companies, but I had covered

95
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,279
Speaker 1: Facebook from the time it was relatively young through the

96
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 1: I p O, and I thought there was no model

97
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 1: for CNBC to look at these private companies long before

98
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 1: the I p O. We need to be getting these

99
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 1: companies and the types of technologies that they're representing on

100
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,520
Speaker 1: our viewers radar early. So I created this list and

101
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,839
Speaker 1: as a result, I've had the wonderful job of interviewing

102
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: a lot of private company ceo is fascinating innovators over

103
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: the past ten years. So in one hand, I was

104
00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 1: interviewing all these amazing innovative, tech driven companies and the

105
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,360
Speaker 1: other hand, I had launched this other project that I

106
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,560
Speaker 1: love called Posing the Gap, and um after the whole

107
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,560
Speaker 1: Times at Me Too movement, I thought, you know, we've

108
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 1: told all these negative stories, but we need to be

109
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 1: focusing on the solutions. We as a network need to

110
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: be looking at the companies and individuals who are doing

111
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 1: positive work to close gender and diversity gaps. So my

112
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 1: colleagues and I created this franchise is online and is

113
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: on TV, and we told stories of ways companies like

114
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 1: Salesforce or PayPal, we're closing equity gaps in their pay

115
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,320
Speaker 1: and in promotion. So I was looking at all these

116
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 1: stats about pay equity and all these things. I kept

117
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 1: on coming across these stats that seemed insane to me,

118
00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: and the one in particular that stuck out to me

119
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,279
Speaker 1: was the fact that, yes, women are now eight percent

120
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,279
Speaker 1: of the fortune five dred. They are maybe of boards

121
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 1: depending on when you cite that stat, but it comes

122
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 1: to venture capital funding, women over the past decade have

123
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 1: gotten three percent on average of all venture capital dollars.

124
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 1: And I thought, this is bananas. This is bananas. The

125
00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 1: most recent stats were that two per scent of all

126
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,919
Speaker 1: venture capital dollars went to companies without a single female

127
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 1: co founder. So that means that all these billions of

128
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,880
Speaker 1: dollars that are funneling into companies like Uber or Airbnb,

129
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,200
Speaker 1: they're going to change the way we live, don't have

130
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 1: women involved. So I thought, this is crazy. I was

131
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 1: interviewing women who had defied those odds, where those female leaders,

132
00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: and I thought, I want to know how these women

133
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: did it. And I was interviewing them for the Disruptor

134
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 1: fifty lest I thought, these women are by definition exceptional,

135
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 1: and so I want to hear their stories and figure

136
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,720
Speaker 1: out how they did it. And every I mean, it

137
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 1: just goes the venture capital stat which is so which

138
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 1: is just so like stubborn and annoying and annoying. Is

139
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 1: that like when you it's so in Congress with knowing

140
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: is in the U, in the US as well as

141
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 1: in hugely in other areas Asia, Africa, where is you know,

142
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 1: more than the entrepreneurship is coming from women startup funds,

143
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 1: So you know, what message does what message does that send?

144
00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: And it's you know, yeah, I mean and look for

145
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 1: of all small businesses in the United States are run

146
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 1: by women. There are clearly plenty of entrepreneurial women. But

147
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 1: the fact that women last year female founded companies got

148
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,760
Speaker 1: two percent of all VC dollars, that's crazy, and so

149
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,440
Speaker 1: yet the ones who were doing it and have managed

150
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 1: to defy those odds are amazing. So I really sort

151
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 1: of use the lens of this area where women have

152
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 1: the least representation, because in some ways they are most exceptional.

153
00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,239
Speaker 1: So the Bull book is full of lots of different stories.

154
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: I talked about Sarah Harden and Witherspoon and lead away

155
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,360
Speaker 1: than some some CEOs of nonprofits, But I talk a

156
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,559
Speaker 1: lot about the tech industry just because the stats are

157
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: so crazy and the women have to be so amazing

158
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: to defy those odds. I mean going just going deep

159
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 1: into it, and again of a scholarship here is so

160
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 1: impressive is that you go into how that women who

161
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,319
Speaker 1: frame their their pitches for for venture capital and private

162
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: equity funding, if they frame their pitches with a socially

163
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: conscious lens, they have a better better track record of

164
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,320
Speaker 1: getting money and then and and having you know, then

165
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: getting a setting up a successful business with the kind

166
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,280
Speaker 1: of capital which is you know, it's not bad. Socially

167
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 1: conscious is terrific, but it is that it is frustrating

168
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,679
Speaker 1: because it's like, well, you have to be one thing,

169
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: you have to be warm and fuzzy. What's not budging them? Well,

170
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 1: what's so interesting? I mean, it's so funny that so

171
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: many women I talked to said they founded a company

172
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 1: and they would take it to vcs and some would

173
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 1: ask them, so, who's your white male co found are

174
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,959
Speaker 1: going to be? There was one Indian woman and people say,

175
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 1: who's your white You gotta you gotta get a white

176
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,440
Speaker 1: male to be your partner. And wouldn't just like turn

177
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: over some furniture and walk out or give up? I

178
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,559
Speaker 1: was it? Why didn't you give up? That's amazing. There

179
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 1: was a bunch of women said that they would pitch

180
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,320
Speaker 1: their idea and the target audiences women, and the VCS

181
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 1: would say, I don't know. You know, my wife never

182
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 1: had a problem with that. There's this one woman, Shanlin Mot.

183
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 1: She's the CEA of a wedding company, like a wedding

184
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,680
Speaker 1: registry planning company called Zola. It's incredibly popular and um

185
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: she pitched her idea with all this data to these

186
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: vcs and it was a bunch of men, and they said,

187
00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,719
Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's like pulling an assistant in here.

188
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,080
Speaker 1: There's a woman. Let's pull in my assistant. She's a woman.

189
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,199
Speaker 1: Let's get her thought on this. She's like, this is

190
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 1: a business. I'm giving you numbers and projections. I said,

191
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. The wedding industry just doesn't seem like

192
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: that big of a business. Of course, it's a fifty

193
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: billion dollar business, and now our business is doing great.

194
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 1: But so there was just this disconnect between the older

195
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 1: white men who were meeting with her and the actual

196
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 1: understanding of the market data. So I think to answer

197
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,679
Speaker 1: your question about why the investors are not um adequately

198
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,319
Speaker 1: understanding the opportunity, a lot of that comes down to

199
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: the fact that the VC industry has not changed in

200
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,560
Speaker 1: many years. It's not like Wall Street, which has gone

201
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,640
Speaker 1: through various reckonings. Because those are public companies, they're transparent.

202
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 1: They report data. Any company, whether it's a tech giant

203
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 1: like Google or Apple, these are companies that are reporting

204
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: gender and racial diversity data, that put it on their

205
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: website every year, and every sort of study will tell

206
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,959
Speaker 1: you that the best way to drive changes to have transparency.

207
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,840
Speaker 1: Up until about there is no measure of the diversity

208
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 1: in in the Silicon Valley financial institutions. And these are

209
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: small groups of people who make a couple of big

210
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 1: bets a year and they're hoping really influence market, really

211
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: influence market, influence the price of tomatoes. They decide to

212
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 1: support something that needs tomato juice. You well, but it

213
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 1: really I mean, like, there are these crazy examples like

214
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,000
Speaker 1: soft Bank, which has this three hundred year vision fund

215
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 1: and will just pour hundreds of millions of dollars into

216
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 1: an idea like an uber crashed crash U or the

217
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 1: Uber TV show. So but there are these There's so

218
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 1: much money at play, and there's a lot of really

219
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 1: interesting data about how this is not malicious. Right, There's

220
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 1: a lot of data showing that male investors, I'm sorry,

221
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: male investors are half as likely as female investors to

222
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,560
Speaker 1: invest in a female D company. So that's really interesting.

223
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,720
Speaker 1: So statistically, a female investors twice as likely to invest

224
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,080
Speaker 1: in a female LAD company that a male investor is

225
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,839
Speaker 1: the problem there is is that women represent a very

226
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 1: small percentage of the decision makers a e C S.

227
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 1: I think something like of decision makers at vcs. And

228
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to double check that. But the

229
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: ideas that women aren't represented in terms of the powerful

230
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 1: positions in those ventor capital firms, and so therefore, if

231
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,800
Speaker 1: they're twice as likely to invest in women, then you

232
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of a lot of female founders

233
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 1: getting getting capital. And a lot of that comes down

234
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,640
Speaker 1: to pattern matching. I want to make it really clear,

235
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm not pointing fingers. I don't think this is malicious.

236
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: A lot of data in my book points to the

237
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 1: fact that female leaders are sometimes more likely to generate

238
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: high returns than mail leaders. So people care about making money,

239
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,040
Speaker 1: they should be investing in female founders. The reason why

240
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 1: they're not is because they're looking for someone, oftentimes who

241
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 1: reminds them of Mark Zuckerberg. So many of these investments

242
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,840
Speaker 1: are made at the early stage, before there is a

243
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 1: track record, before there's revenue or you know, profitability or

244
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: anything to show the success of the actual business. So

245
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 1: many investors are bidding on ideas and founders. They're looking

246
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 1: for founders who have a track record, and they're looking

247
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,240
Speaker 1: for founders who remind them of a founder who succeeded

248
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:05,520
Speaker 1: in the past. And I have a quote in there

249
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 1: of a VC saying he would invest in anyone who

250
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,480
Speaker 1: reminds him of Mark Zuckerberg. So this is a vicious cycle.

251
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 1: It perpetuates itself. How much how much does the Elizabeth

252
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 1: Holmes thing hurt the cause of women trying to break

253
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,840
Speaker 1: this log jam? Look, I loved the Elizabeth Holmes podcast.

254
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 1: I love the consumer. I think it's I think it's

255
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 1: fascinating and I think I mean I and I have

256
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,079
Speaker 1: to say just as a as a consumer of content,

257
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed all of the content around it. Having

258
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 1: said that, it's a it really is a bummer, for

259
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,480
Speaker 1: lack of a better way to put it than when

260
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 1: you ask people like, think of a female CEO and tech,

261
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: the first person who comes to mind is Elizabeth Holmes.

262
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,319
Speaker 1: They're billboards of Amanda Say f Reed playing Elizabeth Holmes

263
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 1: all over l A. That's who people think of. But

264
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: she is not representative of what female leaders are like,

265
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,800
Speaker 1: especially in tech, because that you know that firm. Yeah, yeah,

266
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, first of all, it's she was

267
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: a total failure and it was never a tech from Yeah,

268
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean it was an idea, you know, it was

269
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 1: a failed idea. But I think that um, it's very

270
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,080
Speaker 1: easy to glom onto these archetypes. I mean, you think

271
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 1: about Hollywood, like, there are a couple of archetypes. There's

272
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,960
Speaker 1: the you know, there's this silken valley brow in a

273
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 1: hoodie archetype. There's the man in a suit Wall Street

274
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 1: ceo archetype, and they're just The archetype of a female

275
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 1: CEO is an Elizabeth Holmes type. You know, a young white,

276
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,480
Speaker 1: blond woman who fails. That's like what people have in

277
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 1: their head and it's just not accurate and it and

278
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 1: it's and also to me what drives me crazy. And

279
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 1: one reason I wanted to tell the stories of about

280
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 1: sixty women in this book is there are such an

281
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 1: amazing diversity, such a wide range of different ways that

282
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,240
Speaker 1: women are leading, and they look and sound and do

283
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 1: things in entirely their own ways. I mean, they're never

284
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: women in the book who are introverts. They figured out

285
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,840
Speaker 1: how to use their introversion as a superpower in business,

286
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 1: and I think that's so cool because it totally breaks

287
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: the stereotype of what a leader is supposed to be.

288
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 1: You like, I want to ask you about that. I

289
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: want to like jotting down things I want to ask

290
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 1: you before we move off of venture capitals. What about

291
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 1: hedge funds? So I don't go into hedge funds. I

292
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 1: don't get hedge funds. They are dealing mostly in public

293
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 1: companies and they're shorting in, they're doing long bets. But

294
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 1: that because they're they are also they're more regulated because

295
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 1: they're dealing with public companies because of the SEC regulations.

296
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: But it is a different deal. Yeah, this is like

297
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 1: the venture capital is the power, and venture capital is

298
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: that there's an idea or an entrepreneur they believe in.

299
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 1: They can pour in tens, if not hundreds of millions

300
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 1: of dollars long before a company is profitable, so they

301
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 1: can determine whether or not an idea becomes a successful business.

302
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 1: And I think it has massive impact on our society

303
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 1: if you think about the way tech companies have changed everything.

304
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 1: Just look at our phones in the half of the

305
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 1: half of the apps. Um let me ask you the

306
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: opposite of that? Is there do you find when you

307
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 1: talk to especially the female founders, like, is there is

308
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,480
Speaker 1: there a scenario or small can be beautiful? Is everybody

309
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 1: aiming for the big I p O? Or is there

310
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: a world where you have a nice I hate to

311
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 1: call it a nice little business, but you have a

312
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: you have a business that is profitable and sustainable, and boy,

313
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: in some in some ways, that seems like a pretty

314
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 1: big home run. You know. I was just talking to

315
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of of women and somewhere saying that, you know,

316
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: a number of female CEOs are wary of taking VC

317
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 1: dollars because if you take VC dollars, you might be

318
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 1: pushed to grow faster than you feel comfortable with, and

319
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: you might be pushed to grow faster than than is

320
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: a good idea for your actual business. So I do think,

321
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: especially because they're dealing with vcs who may not fully

322
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: understand their vision, there is a little bit more caution

323
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: around getting into a relationship with someone who's going to

324
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: pressure you to have a quick outcome or a five

325
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 1: year outcome. I think there are also plenty of women

326
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 1: who are incredibly ambitious. They want to create multi billion

327
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 1: dollar companies, They want to be successful. Maybe they want

328
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 1: to do it with an additional purpose. I mean women

329
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: are more likely to found purpose driven companies, so it's

330
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: not just about generally eating profits, but also having an

331
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 1: environmental impact or helping people, whether it's through health tech

332
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 1: or um social impact stuff, But I think it's I

333
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 1: think it's a mix. I think women have also seen

334
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,639
Speaker 1: how easy it is to get taken down by the

335
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: media with numerous examples, so I think there is a

336
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: caution there. But at the same time, they understand that

337
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 1: having a public persona can help market your company. So

338
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,200
Speaker 1: I think it's a big mix of things. But I've

339
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,880
Speaker 1: seen plenty of women who are incredibly, incredibly ambitious and

340
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 1: and really want to achieve the same kind of success

341
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,439
Speaker 1: that men have, and we really haven't seen women at

342
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 1: the level of the Jeff bezos Is and Mark Zuckerberg's.

343
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: We just have it in terms of the self made

344
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 1: women even more so than like politics. Like that seems

345
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 1: like that's why I wanted to focus on this field,

346
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 1: because it was just such a disparity in such a

347
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: crazy gender gap. I thought it also interesting in a

348
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,399
Speaker 1: common thread through a lot of the interviews and anecdotes

349
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: was that women, even women, founded purpose driven, you know,

350
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 1: kind of socially conscious companies. Their first and most instinct

351
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,239
Speaker 1: was there's a market here, there is profits to be

352
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 1: made here. Well, you know, social good is fantastic, but

353
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,679
Speaker 1: they but the the impetus is not let's do this

354
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 1: because it's a good thing to do. But let's do

355
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 1: this because there's a there's a market here, there are

356
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: profits here. And also there are a lot of industries

357
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 1: or areas where people are like, oh, that's philanthropy, Like

358
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 1: you want to deal with food waste, Like that's philanthropy,

359
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: Like that's just garbage. Like maybe it'll help the environment,

360
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 1: but you're not going to make money on that. And

361
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: there's an amazing founder in the book, and she's saying, no,

362
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 1: if we can take this food waste and turn it

363
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: into a profitable business and sell the the leftover cauliflower

364
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 1: for cauliflower pizza crusts or whatever it is, Like the

365
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 1: green juice. You know, a thirteen dollar green juice doesn't

366
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,879
Speaker 1: need to be made with pristine um lettuce, you know,

367
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,680
Speaker 1: pieces of lettuce that you would buy a grocery store.

368
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 1: You can make it with a scraggly stuff that people

369
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 1: don't want to eat, but yet it would be perfect

370
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,919
Speaker 1: for a green juice. So this idea that it's actually

371
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: much better over the long run to take a social

372
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: or environmental problem and solve it with a sustainable, profitable business,

373
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 1: because then you don't have to worry about winds of

374
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: change blowing philanthropy dollars somewhere else the book. I love

375
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: these stories. The book is full of that spark of inspiration.

376
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 1: I was standing in line at the supermarket, I was

377
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 1: stuck in traffic. I was doing like that spark of inspiration.

378
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,120
Speaker 1: I always like when I talked to entrepreneurs, always trying

379
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 1: to what was that spark? What was that spark? Um?

380
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about Hollywood stuff,

381
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,160
Speaker 1: but but in the in the very thirty thousand foot view,

382
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 1: I think one thing in reading the book, there's different

383
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 1: there's different examples. There's you know, as women especially started

384
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties really going into business, there

385
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 1: seems to have always been kind of a debate in

386
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,199
Speaker 1: that like do you make do you make the argument

387
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 1: that women are as capable as any male CEO can handle?

388
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 1: There's nothing you know that there is no there is

389
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 1: no difference in anything else as gender bias, or is

390
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 1: there an argument to be made that women do lead

391
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 1: differently and we should respect and appreciate what different You know,

392
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,359
Speaker 1: what different leadership styles bring to any sector. I don't know,

393
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be I don't think they're either,

394
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: or I think they're both. I think they're both, and

395
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: I think that, Um, it's been interesting, like looking at

396
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 1: the data about leading and managing in crisis. Women have

397
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,920
Speaker 1: amazing performance managing in crisis, especially if you think about

398
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: the financial crisis, managing through the pandemic, And in some

399
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: ways they're leading very differently than male ceo s. But

400
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 1: in other ways maybe male CEOs are trying to or

401
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: should try to emulate them, particularly in times of crisis,

402
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: when say things like empathy manner matter more both employees

403
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,239
Speaker 1: and customers. So I think that, Um, the overwhelming thing

404
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 1: that struck me and interviewing hundreds of people and and

405
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,880
Speaker 1: reading all these academic studies is that while we may

406
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: have a couple of ideas of what leadership looks like

407
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 1: or what good leadership looks like, in fact, there are

408
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: many different skills that can be used for good leadership.

409
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: And the leaders who were most successful were those who

410
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,199
Speaker 1: didn't try to force themselves into this box or this

411
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 1: stereotype or trying to fit a model of what leadership

412
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: looked like in the seventies. But instead we're saying, here's

413
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 1: what I'm really good at and here's how I could

414
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: hire people around me to fill in the things that

415
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: I know nothing about, and here's how I can lean

416
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 1: into the things that I'm really good at, whether it's

417
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 1: being an amazing listener and able to negotiate deals better

418
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: because you're an introvert, or leading with gratitude and using

419
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 1: that gratitude to focus on long term results, or or

420
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: bringing in perspectives from across your team or across your company,

421
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,439
Speaker 1: like that kind of communal bringing them together leadership. The

422
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: people who were able to figure out their skill set

423
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: and lean into it were the ones who I saw

424
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 1: able to make the most progress and also feel good

425
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: about the way they were they were managing their company.

426
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: I think for so long people have and I talked

427
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: to women about this. They felt like they had to

428
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: wear the boxy suit and act in a certain way.

429
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: But the shoulder pads, shoulder pads, their back, it's okay,

430
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: but but felt like they had to force themself to

431
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: act a certain way. And now the guy, the guys, yeah,

432
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: and now that there are more women in the room,

433
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: I think that everyone should be able to lead in

434
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 1: a way that they feel it's more authentic to that.

435
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more from

436
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: SANDBCS Julia Borstion after this pause for monetization, and we're

437
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: back with more from SANBCS Julia Bortion on her new book,

438
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: When Women Lead. You've been a business reporter for a

439
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: long time. I know you knew a lot of this intuitively,

440
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: but what really surprised you from your reporting? I hadn't

441
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: read academic research like this in a really long time,

442
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: and I ended up going down so many rabbit holes

443
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: about how about good leadership, about female leadership? And I

444
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: just read I mean literally three studies, and it was

445
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: so interesting to look at the fact that social scientists

446
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: are studying everything from how when you use humor in

447
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: the workplace, women are judged more harshly to um, you know,

448
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: to the fact that like athletes are more successful as

449
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 1: CEOs and why is that so just There's a lot

450
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: of interesting stuff in there. But to the point of Hollywood,

451
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: since since you cover Hollywood, there was some amazing data

452
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: about the power of Hollywood to create archetypes. And I

453
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: was blown away by the studies. And there's some great

454
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: stuff out of the GENA David's Institute just about gender

455
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: gaps in Hollywood. But also the one thing that I

456
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: keep on thinking about is I show movies to my kids,

457
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: because we showed them a lot of movies from from

458
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: when I was growing out from the eighties. There are

459
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of movies in the early eighties that made

460
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: the heroes these young white geeky men, and they were

461
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: techie and they were solving problems with technology, and the

462
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: women were just their sidekicks, whether it was weird you know,

463
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: weird science or war games, and these movies, which were great.

464
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: I rewatched a bunch of them with my family and

465
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: when I was writing this book, they were great, but

466
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: they really didn't have women in that tech world. And

467
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: there was this amazing correlation between the rise of this

468
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: this new type of hero in Hollywood and set the image,

469
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: set the image culture. Image of the tech geek really

470
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: wasn't I was about fourteen when War Games came out.

471
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: It was the absolute target and the message couldn't have

472
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: been clear. This is a guys, this is a guy's

473
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: tech is a guy's game. The girl is there to

474
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: go on the adventure, but you can't help with the

475
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: technology stuff. So there were all of these movies that

476
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: came out and over the next twenty years, there was

477
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: a twenty percentage point decline in the number of women

478
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: who enrolled in computer science as their major in college. Now,

479
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: obviously there were a lot of other things that were

480
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: going on as well, but the cultural archetype was that

481
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: tech was a young guy's game. And the fact that

482
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: they were all these women who did who major in

483
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: computer science before that era is crazy to me. It

484
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: started to come up. It's that curve has definitely started

485
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: to change. Um. But I think that it really reminded

486
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: me how powerful Hollywood is. And look, my husband works

487
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: in Hollywood. I live here in l A. I'm so

488
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: I were these companies. But that's why I think the

489
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: work of companies like Hello Sunshine or lean Away with

490
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: Hilman Grad, both of which I wrote about in my book.

491
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: I think they're so important because just like the tech

492
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: companies are powerful, the Hollywood entertainment companies are powerful because

493
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: those are stereotypes and archetypes that are exported around the world.

494
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: It is it's you know, some some have called its

495
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: soft power, and it is fascinating, and I think I

496
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: think it is as much as the I C b ms.

497
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: That's what helped win the Cold War and Elvis Presley,

498
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: Beatles and Madonna and you know it just I really

499
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: do think that it was that. It was that, and

500
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: that's why Hollywood and pop culture can be used for

501
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 1: a force of good as well. I mean, and you

502
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: think about you know, I think about Black Panther and

503
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and the fact that now

504
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: my kids have all these action heroes who were women,

505
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: and they're not just dressed in miniskirts like they were

506
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: when I started trying to buy them for them, you know,

507
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: a decade ago. Because I think in Hollywood understands um

508
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: that the audience is not just young white men, which

509
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: was you know, that's not all they should be marketing towards.

510
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: And so we're really seeing us I think a shift

511
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: in some of the imagery that's getting out there. Well,

512
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: yet again, in a business context, you're leaving money on

513
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: the tape exactly. I think that that that there's been

514
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: a dawning realization they're making movies like Black Panther or

515
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: Wonder Women are not philanthropy. It's too because there's a

516
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: huge financial opportunity. What specific because you said you spoke

517
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: with Lenaway than Hillman grad where she's been doing some

518
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: really interesting and they are dogged over there. The same

519
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: thing with Hello Sunshine, very impactful company, doing a lot,

520
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: incredibly impressive CEO and Sarah Harden Um tell me any

521
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: anything specifically about entrepreneurship or about the specific challenges of

522
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: Hollywood and content that stand out. What I think is

523
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: so important, and I talked to Sarah harden and Reese

524
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: Witherspoon about this, is this idea of authentic authorship. If

525
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: the studios are all run by white men, they're not

526
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: going to understand the vast majority of their audience. And

527
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: I think that's why we've seen the studios become become

528
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: far more diverse in their leadership. We have people like

529
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: Donna Langley running Universal, but also their investments in a

530
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: diverse assortment of filmmakers because it works. And so what's

531
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: so interesting is, you know, you see Hell of Sunshine,

532
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: they're saying, what are the shows that we would want

533
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: to see and what are the who are the filmmakers

534
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: that can adequately tell those stories? Um they talked about

535
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: how when they were making little fires everywhere, they're like,

536
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: what should the writer's room look like? It shouldn't look

537
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: like the people in the show and the characters in

538
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: the show and represent those stories. And look, it worked

539
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: out really well for them. They had that that big

540
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: exit to Candle Media, that Hell of Sunshine sales to

541
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: Candle Media, because they're all about figuring out how to

542
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: pair the content creators with a hungry audience at a

543
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: very high valuate, at a very high valuation, million dollar evaluation,

544
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: and we can we can talk about like was that

545
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: there was a lot of industry debate about that evaluation.

546
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: If that had been you know, if it had been

547
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: Ronald Witherspoon as opposed to Reese and we have had

548
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: the same level of valuation. Maybe Ronald weather spond has

549
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: been making great deals for a long time, so um, yeah,

550
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: but it's a debate, and look and reach wther is

551
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: a huge star. But I think, um, you know what's

552
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: been amazing about watching Hello Sunshine is there was this

553
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: period where all of these streaming services launched. Do you

554
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,239
Speaker 1: remember that there was like an Apple Ta you were

555
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: probably there are these events. I remember going at the

556
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: Apple TV announcement and there was a Hulu announcement, and

557
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: every one of these announcements seemed to feature a show

558
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: from Hello Sunshine, and so I think that these studio

559
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: there are the streamers. We're figuring out how to leverage

560
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: the Hello Sunshine brand, while Hello Sunshine was figuring out

561
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: how to leverage the streamers to to boost their valuation.

562
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: But I think um, I was just really impressed by

563
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: this idea of the importance of them having financial success

564
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: is that it shows that women can do this and

565
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: it shows that it could be done. Um and Leana Wave,

566
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: I think, takes this idea of authentic authorship to the

567
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: next level, and she tells very specific stories and shows

568
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: the universal appeal of very specific stories. When I interview her,

569
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: she was telling me that, Um, I don't know if

570
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: you remember Master of None, that that very famous Thanksgiving

571
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: episode where she tells the story of her coming out

572
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: to her family and and you know that experience of

573
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: our Thanksgiving dinner, and that is a very specific experience.

574
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: But she said that people all over the country would

575
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: come up to her and say that was the most

576
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: amazing episode. It reminded me so much of my family.

577
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: And she said, these these straight white dudes would come

578
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: up to her and say, I related so much to

579
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: that episode. But the way she thinks about it is

580
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: that was so specific that in a way, there's something

581
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: about the specificity that people can relate to you. If

582
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: you just had a generic Thanksgiving dinner with families fighting

583
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: or not talking to each other, whatever it is, it

584
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't feel as real. The specificity makes it feel real.

585
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: And also, I think she's really proven that you can

586
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: take something which may seem like a niche story and

587
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: show that niche stories have universal appeal and people want

588
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: to connect with content that feels real and different than

589
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: the same stuff they've been watching. My last question for you,

590
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: and I always i'd love to ask people this question,

591
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: how what was your process for writing? So you've done

592
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: all your research and oh my god, I know the

593
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: feeling of like, you know, you know, you know that

594
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: you're looking at deadlines and you're looking at you know,

595
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: blank files or pages. Did you write at the computer?

596
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: Did you write longhand did you write late at night

597
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: like many working moms do. Um, you know those really

598
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: giant like post it notes that are three feet tall?

599
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm talking about? Like those big

600
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: gm like sometimes notes. So I would do all the

601
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: interviews I would have, I would automatically transcribe them using Otter,

602
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: which is an amazing app UM, And after each interview

603
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: I would go through and re listen to it. I

604
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: would take notes on the themes, and then I would

605
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: take these giant post it notes. I have these giant

606
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: post repards all around our house, and I would write down,

607
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: like what category these women's characteristics building. It's very smartly

608
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: organized in not a company my company format theme and

609
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: it's really good. So I would have all of these

610
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: these giant posters basically all over the house with different

611
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: names and themes, and I would like run around like

612
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: a crazy person writing and start being on these giant

613
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: post reboards and so exactly. So that's how I would

614
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: organize the ideas. And then I would sometimes just sit

615
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: down and just write someone's story, um, going back to

616
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: the transcript and just like I found the story so amazing.

617
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes I would cry when I was interviewing people I found,

618
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: I mean, the stories are so inspiring and in the

619
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: depths of the pandemic, to get to talk to these women,

620
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: That's why I love doing this, is because I was

621
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: so inspired and it makes you feel so hopeful about

622
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: the world that their leaders like this that are trying

623
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: to fix problems so I would sometimes just sit down

624
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: and write UM. But the truth is that because I

625
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: wake up very early for work on the weekends, I

626
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: would try to wake up at the same time and

627
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: I would sometimes I'd wake up with five and I

628
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: would just right for like four hours before my family

629
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: would bother me and I would just lock myself of

630
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: a way and without the interruptions of anyone, you could

631
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: really get a lot done. So UM, I thought it

632
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: was really fun. I really want to write another book.

633
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review

634
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts. We love to hear from listeners. Please

635
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: go to Variety dot com and sign up for our

636
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: free Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in

637
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Strictly Business