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Speaker 1: I don't under you never know stories of things we
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey there, welcome again
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined by
Speaker 1: my incredibly good looking co host Steve and devon guys say, Hi, Hi,
Speaker 1: So anyway you guys, Yeah, do you want to do
Speaker 1: that again? No? I like it because I'm incredibly attractive
Speaker 1: exactly all right, So anyway, folks, we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about a mystery that surrounds and Frank, who you probably
Speaker 1: have heard of, but for a few of you haven't heard.
Speaker 1: And Frank was a teenage Jewish girl who spent more
Speaker 1: than two years hiding in some rooms behind the business
Speaker 1: in Amsterdam, along with their family and four other people.
Speaker 1: Is that ragman a bells uh? And then one day
Speaker 1: in August ninety four, German police rated the building and
Speaker 1: took them away, and of course, says you all know,
Speaker 1: they met a grim fate yeah, Auschwitz and Bergen Belson
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. But it appears there and then
Speaker 1: that somebody ratted them out. So our mystery is is
Speaker 1: who thinked on the Franks? Yeah? Yeah, well this has
Speaker 1: actually been heavily investigated. There was an investigation in nine
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, in nineteen eighty six, two thousand three investigation.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I have books have been written, you know,
Speaker 1: suspects put forward. First of all, before we start talking
Speaker 1: about our mystery, I want to take a minute to
Speaker 1: thank our listener Maggie, who said, as did this story
Speaker 1: way way back when, like December last year. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: sorry for the long way, Maggie, but you know, here
Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, well we're here. We finally arrived. I'd
Speaker 1: also like to thank our listeners. Shanna hopefully hippernuts that
Speaker 1: correctly Shanna. Uh. Janna speaks Dutch and she helped me
Speaker 1: out with the pronunciation. Some of the names involved ironic
Speaker 1: that you don't know how to say. Her name actually
Speaker 1: spelled Channa, but she actually she actually spelled it out
Speaker 1: fanatically for men. So Shanna unless it's Shanna, but it
Speaker 1: might be Shanna, so Shanna Shanna. Yeah, let me know
Speaker 1: if I succeeded. I'm almost certainly going to mangle these
Speaker 1: word these names anyway, but at least no, I won't
Speaker 1: mangle them quite as bad as I would have. Yeah, fantastically. Yeah. Okay,
Speaker 1: back to Anne Frank. Um, I'll just give you a
Speaker 1: brief overview of her story. And this was actually helpful
Speaker 1: for me. I know, most school aged children, at least
Speaker 1: in America presumably most other places read Diary of a
Speaker 1: Young Girl by Anne Frank. I did not. I was
Speaker 1: never assigned it, so I had not actually ever really read,
Speaker 1: you know, in depth. You kind of just vaguely understand
Speaker 1: that Anne Frank is a person who existed and happened,
Speaker 1: and she wrote some stuff about those bad things, and
Speaker 1: also also some stuff that people think is really offensive
Speaker 1: and pornographic. But I don't know. That's all I ever knew.
Speaker 1: So this is really help No, this was I same thing.
Speaker 1: I I had a complete and total incorrect perception of
Speaker 1: the space that these people lived in, and and so
Speaker 1: reading it and then getting to see some of this stuff,
Speaker 1: it really it makes this the story makes more sense.
Speaker 1: I also didn't realize there was it was two years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought, I don't know why I just kind of
Speaker 1: assumed it was a couple of months. They were there
Speaker 1: for two years and a month. Yeah. Actually the Austrian
Speaker 1: police officer who finally rated the place and who and
Speaker 1: then arrested them and took them away, couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: That's what Yeah, he said. Yeah, Otto Frank said, he
Speaker 1: is the policeman. The policeman just couldn't believe that they
Speaker 1: had been there that long. Yeah. But anyway, so let's
Speaker 1: talk about the story. I was talking about the story. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Frank was born in nine in Frankfurt, Germany. So
Speaker 1: yes she was German, not not Dutch. But she was
Speaker 1: born to Ottawa and Edith Frank. She also had an
Speaker 1: older sister named Margot, about three years older than her.
Speaker 1: And in nineteen thirty three a couple of things happened
Speaker 1: that kind of prompted the family to move to Amsterdam.
Speaker 1: One is that Otto got an offer to help start
Speaker 1: a company there and to the National Socialist German Workers
Speaker 1: Party came to power. It was along you know, I
Speaker 1: was reading about this just today, the whole convoluted process
Speaker 1: of Hitler getting appointed chancellor and then consolidating power, all
Speaker 1: the manipulations scheming that went on and it's way too
Speaker 1: complicated to go over. But he he did a masterful
Speaker 1: job of pretty much taking over the entire German government.
Speaker 1: And it took a little Oh yeah, it took a
Speaker 1: lot of scheming and it took and it took time
Speaker 1: and years. Yeah, it took. Yeah, it took a while.
Speaker 1: But finally he was in charge of everything and that
Speaker 1: turned out well yeah, not really yeah yeah yeah. So
Speaker 1: uh so Otto, Frankie and his wife saw the writing
Speaker 1: on the wall and decided it might be time to
Speaker 1: beat Fete to Amsterdam. Smart choice. Yeah. So Otto worked
Speaker 1: in Amsterdam at a Pecto works in a building at
Speaker 1: two sixty Print, Amsterdam. Uh In night, he founded a
Speaker 1: second company called Pecticon, which was housed in the same building.
Speaker 1: And he was a bit of an entrepreneur. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: well both companies are his. And it was something to
Speaker 1: do with gelatine. Yeah, pecton. Pecton is a is a
Speaker 1: derived from fruit and it's kind of jello in a sense.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. I never really what you used to
Speaker 1: make jams and jelly. Yeah, that's it, thank you, which
Speaker 1: I understand would be high. It was highly important, but
Speaker 1: I never really thought about the fact that it was
Speaker 1: derived that way. So it's really interesting. You had to
Speaker 1: know what he was kind very intelligent guy to be
Speaker 1: able to manage that. Yea, And that seems like it
Speaker 1: would be a high commodity at that time as well
Speaker 1: of canning and preserving happening at that point, refrigeration was
Speaker 1: not so good well as you kind of you know,
Speaker 1: if you're going to be living in the back of
Speaker 1: a house for two years, you know, yeah, two years
Speaker 1: in a month half and that. So things were going
Speaker 1: pretty well for the for the Franks. But in nineteen forty, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the Germans invaded the Netherlands and immediately, of course began
Speaker 1: persecuting Dutch Jews. Uh Anna Margot were forced to change
Speaker 1: schools because there were new rules mandating segregations, so that
Speaker 1: meant they could only go to a Jewish school as
Speaker 1: long as the Jewish school existed. It does It seems
Speaker 1: like it was a much slower process than I also thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I just kind of assumed the Nazis come
Speaker 1: to Amsterdam and then all of the Jews get carted away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one day, the next. Yeah, it was a much slower
Speaker 1: process of slowly segregating and then slowly carting away. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the carting away didn't didn't start right away, and it
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I don't think they'd really ramped up
Speaker 1: the whole Holocaust to industrial proportions yet. Yeah. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: took a little time. So the girls had to go
Speaker 1: to a new school. They had to add to change schools.
Speaker 1: Jewish own businesses were being confiscated, so in y one,
Speaker 1: Auto Frank liquidated his companies and transferred all of his
Speaker 1: assets to young young Geese. I hope I pronounced that correctly,
Speaker 1: shan up. Let me know. Um Geese was the husband
Speaker 1: of Neep Geese, who was Auto Frank's secretary, and also
Speaker 1: they were all friends too. In July two, Margot was
Speaker 1: ordered to report for relocation to a work camp. Remember
Speaker 1: Margot was was older than the Yeah, uh so the Franks.
Speaker 1: The Franks had been planning already to go into hiding,
Speaker 1: but they decided to move up the date a little
Speaker 1: bit because of this. And on July six, who they
Speaker 1: left their apartment with many, many layers of clothes on,
Speaker 1: which must have been great on July Day. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: hope they left first thing in the morning. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: in the evening or something. But they were tons of
Speaker 1: layers of clothes because they didn't want to be seen
Speaker 1: carrying luggage. Yeah, they left behind their cat, which kind
Speaker 1: of bothers me. Oh. I heard she that Anne gave
Speaker 1: the cat to their neighbor. Yeah, and her marbles. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She was very, very concerned about her marble. She didn't
Speaker 1: want them to fall into the wrong hands. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so so that made me feel better when I heard
Speaker 1: that the cat was okay in the marble. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: in the marbles too. Uh. They walked to Auto's business
Speaker 1: where his two companies are, and and it was several
Speaker 1: kilometers but they had to walk because Jews weren't allowed
Speaker 1: to take public transportation. Cool. I such a weird rule,
Speaker 1: but okay, yeah, I know. Well it's very similar to
Speaker 1: segregation that happened in America, and it's still a weird
Speaker 1: rule to me on that front. Yeah, okay, that's weird whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but okay, yeah, I know. Back
Speaker 1: to the business to building is one of those really tall,
Speaker 1: skinny Amsterdam buildings. I'm sure everybody's seen pictures of its
Speaker 1: um like four stories tall. Yeah, exactly. It's it was
Speaker 1: actually a building that fronted on the street in the canal,
Speaker 1: and then behind it there was a second building called
Speaker 1: the annex, and they were connected together. The ground level
Speaker 1: was basically unfinished warehouse space for the business. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: extending underneath the back building too. Yeah, and so the
Speaker 1: ground level was basically unfinished. The upper levels of the
Speaker 1: street side building were used as offices, and then there
Speaker 1: was a connecting doorway to the rear building on the
Speaker 1: second level, which and this this part of this space
Speaker 1: is known as the annex. So second from the second
Speaker 1: floor up to the attic that was the annex and
Speaker 1: had previously been used as a laboratory for product development,
Speaker 1: but during the war there was not much product development
Speaker 1: going on, so Otto Frank found another use for it.
Speaker 1: They moved into that space and then they put a
Speaker 1: bookcase across the doorway to conceal it. And that's how
Speaker 1: they kept hidden for months, literally the spy movie door. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there was like a bathroom and stuff in there, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was, thank thank god, although they couldn't flush the
Speaker 1: toilet during the day because there were people working down
Speaker 1: below in the warehouse. Yeah yeah, well yeah, at least yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you just learned to time your stuff, I guess, yeah, probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they had to be really quiet for those two
Speaker 1: years and one month. Yeah, And there are pictures of
Speaker 1: this online, right, Yeah, there's a there's on the Wikipedia page.
Speaker 1: There's a really nice there's a picture of this from
Speaker 1: the and Frank Museum, And somebody built a model of
Speaker 1: the buildings and everything, and and there's a picture I
Speaker 1: was kind of a cutaway model. And then all these
Speaker 1: spaces are labeled and stuff, so you can get a
Speaker 1: really great idea of the space that they were living. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I think that it was. It was helpful to
Speaker 1: me to be able to see it. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Actually I was surprised because I had Again, because I
Speaker 1: hadn't really read the diary or anything like that. I
Speaker 1: was always under the oppression that they were living in
Speaker 1: a much tinier space. And what they lived in it
Speaker 1: was basically a house, like a two story house, and
Speaker 1: they had yeah, not huge, not a huge amount of
Speaker 1: space but for the four of them. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: underground railroad kind of under the floorboards. Now, not like that,
Speaker 1: and not not like like glorious bastards the Jews were
Speaker 1: hiding under the floorboards. Yeah, although I'm sure there were
Speaker 1: some that were there, probably were. Yeah, anyway, that would
Speaker 1: have been a not a bad space for the frank family.
Speaker 1: But about a week later, Hermand van Pel's, which was
Speaker 1: one of his employees, showed up with this family. So
Speaker 1: that's him and his wife and his son. And then
Speaker 1: several months later another friend showed up, Fritz Feffer. So
Speaker 1: all in all, eight people living in that space for
Speaker 1: over two years. Yeah, they weren't able to go outside
Speaker 1: and get fresh air and a little sunshine and only
Speaker 1: one bathroom between eight people. Yeah, so I'm thinking things
Speaker 1: got a little tents and yeah, but it does be
Speaker 1: getting killed, yeah or worse. Yeah, yeah, not like the
Speaker 1: Nazis were, you know, the worst thing wasn't being killed
Speaker 1: by them. Yeah, that's true. They did some hideous things, yes, Yeah.
Speaker 1: The thing that gets me about this, I guess is
Speaker 1: like there had to have been blueprints or it seems
Speaker 1: like prime hiding spot right that you would be able
Speaker 1: to walk and say, oh, there's an extra house back there.
Speaker 1: I don't but I guess I don't know how active
Speaker 1: searches were or anything like that. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean it was it was if you're working in
Speaker 1: the building, it would be kind of obvious because the
Speaker 1: offices only extend back so far, and get the warehouse
Speaker 1: below extends back a lot further. But you know, the
Speaker 1: guys that worked in the warehouse maybe didn't get up
Speaker 1: to the opposite all that much. Probably not to the
Speaker 1: back office, or the sense of space is different. Keep
Speaker 1: in mind that it wasn't as if it's just a
Speaker 1: big empty space. It's a warehouse space on the bottom,
Speaker 1: it's got stuff stacked up, an office space. It's got walls,
Speaker 1: it's got people and deaths, So there's things that can
Speaker 1: sort of distort your sense of proportion. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've ever been in an office where you
Speaker 1: feel like this place just goes on and on and on,
Speaker 1: and then suddenly it feels like you're in an area
Speaker 1: that's really small and every Monday through friends and there.
Speaker 1: It's just simply because of the way that it's arranged
Speaker 1: and what's in it, And to a degree, I think
Speaker 1: that's what worked in the Frank's benefit. It seems also
Speaker 1: likely that on the off chance that a worker does
Speaker 1: come up and say it seems like there should be
Speaker 1: more back there, you can say, oh, there was lab
Speaker 1: space back there, but we closed it off. They want
Speaker 1: to be wasting money on heat, you know and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, there's there's ways around, or just say
Speaker 1: shut up and take your paycheck and go. Just be
Speaker 1: happy you have the job. They say something like they said,
Speaker 1: we don't know anything about any Jews, no one there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have people hidden in there anyway. So our
Speaker 1: our eight people are called the hiders, and there were
Speaker 1: six people called the helpers who who knew about them,
Speaker 1: and four of them worked there, and then there were
Speaker 1: two others. So there are helpers were Victor Kugler, meet
Speaker 1: Peace and I'm already mangling these Bet bush Kyl, Johannes Klayman,
Speaker 1: Yankee Johannes Vush Kyle who was Bebe's father, and young
Speaker 1: young Kee was Meske's husband. Uh, they were the helpers
Speaker 1: and they did stuff like well, first off, toy kept
Speaker 1: their mouth shut about the whole thing I was important
Speaker 1: to do, and they did. They would would do other
Speaker 1: stuff too, like like jan would go out and find
Speaker 1: a way to get illegal way to get rationing cards
Speaker 1: because they had to get food for these people, right,
Speaker 1: so he had he procured rationing cards and they all
Speaker 1: went out and got supplies for them. But most especially
Speaker 1: Meep did. She did a lot of shopping for those
Speaker 1: two years, and she was going out because she had
Speaker 1: to be a little profile about it. She had to
Speaker 1: go a couple of times, probably several times a day,
Speaker 1: and she could only see what her rule was to
Speaker 1: go to go to several different stores and at one
Speaker 1: by by a single bag of groceries and nothing more
Speaker 1: unless you could hide something under a coat and then
Speaker 1: bring it back and then go to another store. So
Speaker 1: she I mean, these people worked hard. One who lived
Speaker 1: to be a hundred Yeah, she died in two Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't remember what website it was. I was reading
Speaker 1: some story I think it was on the Guardian or
Speaker 1: something like that, and I was reading it and they
Speaker 1: had a picture of her in a hundred years old,
Speaker 1: and then they had a picture of her from I
Speaker 1: think nineteen forty or nineteen forty two, and Otto Frank
Speaker 1: was in the picture. But it was so weird. Is
Speaker 1: you see somebody and you're trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: they looked like when they were younger. Except the photo
Speaker 1: was captioned incorrectly and it said so and so bottom
Speaker 1: center left, and so and so bottom center left, like
Speaker 1: two people, so I kept look at I was so
Speaker 1: confused until I finally figured out which one it was,
Speaker 1: because obviously she looked like her. But it was really
Speaker 1: it was really interesting that she managed to She was
Speaker 1: the last one of all of these people. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: the last survivor of the entire group. She must have
Speaker 1: been eating a lot of pine cones. Is that what
Speaker 1: it is? I think, Grandma. Some of the other things
Speaker 1: that they did, they would keep them up to date
Speaker 1: on what's going on outside. I assume they brought in
Speaker 1: newspapers and books for them to read, bet order correspondence,
Speaker 1: courses and subjects like Latin and shorthands to keep them occupied.
Speaker 1: And the girls were taking those, yeah, and so doing
Speaker 1: really well. Yeah, Margo, Margot, Margo. She didn't she get
Speaker 1: perfect scores on her shorthand test or something, Yeah, something
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, so they were doing really well. Well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a good idea. If you're sitting there, religant
Speaker 1: group of people, I think, oh yeah, smart, smart people.
Speaker 1: And you know that the girls obviously weren't able to
Speaker 1: go to school, so they want to do something for
Speaker 1: it to heal them. So's not too far behind when
Speaker 1: the war is over. But as I said, to keep
Speaker 1: the factory workers, the guys down to the basement in
Speaker 1: the dark, they had to be very quiet during the
Speaker 1: daylight hours, and they couldn't plush the toilet during work hours.
Speaker 1: They also had to be careful at night because they
Speaker 1: couldn't really have lights on and they couldn't have the
Speaker 1: curtains open. Yeah, because there's there's other buildings and facing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah this yeah, this is uh, this is this isn't
Speaker 1: a block of buildings. And I don't know if you
Speaker 1: lift the aerials of it. I'm sure you guys have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so there's like almost like a courtyard which is
Speaker 1: all the backyards of these buildings, which was kind of
Speaker 1: kind of an open space, and so people across the
Speaker 1: way it could look in the windows. So you had
Speaker 1: to keep those curtains shut. Yeah. One supposes that you
Speaker 1: would simultaneously not wear your shoes and not be on
Speaker 1: the lowest most level. That would do a lot of
Speaker 1: the During the day, you would be able to walk
Speaker 1: around a little more freely. But I think you could
Speaker 1: talk in low voices. Well, yeah, because they're they're the
Speaker 1: lowest floor of their living space. There. Hiding space was
Speaker 1: actually the second floor. Yeah. But also it looked like
Speaker 1: from the model it didn't share actually share, It wasn't
Speaker 1: the same level. There was a space of insulation or
Speaker 1: something in between the warehouse and the floor. That's what
Speaker 1: it looked like to me. But it would still be
Speaker 1: you know, it's an old building. It's not going to be. No,
Speaker 1: it's not quiet now, not at all that. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure they were able to move around, they just couldn't
Speaker 1: be shouting or playing loud music or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And then pictionary, yeah, and then and on the weekends
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes Otto would allow allow and to go down
Speaker 1: and sit in his office at his desk, his old
Speaker 1: office from when he was when he was worked there.
Speaker 1: And so I'm sure that was a nice change. I
Speaker 1: mean it's not much, but I mean, you know, but
Speaker 1: also a little privacy, a little privacy. So she would
Speaker 1: work at her diary and stuff. She was We didn't
Speaker 1: say this, really, we didn't do the math for people.
Speaker 1: She was thirteen when they went into hiding, so she
Speaker 1: was she was in hiding from thirteen to fIF teen.
Speaker 1: That's a bad time, yeah, be necessarily around people of
Speaker 1: the time. Good point. And she was working at a
Speaker 1: diary and she was very private about her diary, and
Speaker 1: she was always not wanting anybody looking over her shoulder
Speaker 1: or anything. And so yeah, for her, that was probably
Speaker 1: really nice to sit in Dad's office and work in
Speaker 1: the diary and just be away from everybody else. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have a question about the diary because this is
Speaker 1: I obviously, as we said, didn't read it, but when
Speaker 1: I was reading stuff about it, it sounded like she
Speaker 1: edited the contents of her diary continually so that when
Speaker 1: the diary when she was taken away, the diary was
Speaker 1: in the voice of fifteen year old and Frank, even
Speaker 1: though it had initially in the beginning been written by
Speaker 1: thirteen year old and Frank, which is just it's so
Speaker 1: it's execute perspective in a way, do you see. I
Speaker 1: think the sense I had was it wasn't so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it wasn't go back into lead because
Speaker 1: it was handwritten, presumably in penn. The impression I had
Speaker 1: it was more cross out and write in the margin,
Speaker 1: or just write notes in the margin. I know there
Speaker 1: was one bit where it said she had written something
Speaker 1: about how much she hated her mother and she wasn't
Speaker 1: a mother of hers, and then she had gone back
Speaker 1: and crossed out and said like, and what are you saying?
Speaker 1: What are you doing? That's so dumb? I know that
Speaker 1: for me, you know, when I was a teenage girl,
Speaker 1: I kind of journal off and on, and I would
Speaker 1: do things like that. I would go back and read
Speaker 1: and write little notes to myself in the margin and
Speaker 1: things like that. That was kind of the impression that
Speaker 1: I had. But again, I also haven't read it, so
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, it
Speaker 1: just makes me think there's a book out there that
Speaker 1: I read years and years ago, Flowers for Algernon. I
Speaker 1: think it's how you pronouncing, and it's written, you know,
Speaker 1: in this voice that evolves in maturity and then devolves again.
Speaker 1: And to me, it's almost as if I remember there
Speaker 1: was a passage in the book where it said I've
Speaker 1: been told not to go back and fix my writings
Speaker 1: in the beginning. And that's just one of those things
Speaker 1: that popped into my head when I was reading that
Speaker 1: about and well, she wanted to be a journalist, she decided.
Speaker 1: Everything I've read about it is that she recognized. And
Speaker 1: then you know, literary critics afterwards recognized that her writing
Speaker 1: style improved infinitely. She was devoting herself, you know, that's
Speaker 1: all she was doing when she was and so I
Speaker 1: think she would probably you can't you go back and
Speaker 1: you read that stuff if it's there, if it's one
Speaker 1: of the only things that you have, you're gonna keep
Speaker 1: reading it and you'll get annoyed. And thank god, it's
Speaker 1: so childish. And she wasn't writing it as a book,
Speaker 1: you know, she was writing it as a diary for herself,
Speaker 1: so writing notes back in the margin and editing and
Speaker 1: saying what are you doing? Or that sounded dumb? I
Speaker 1: can phrase it about her way. That's true because when
Speaker 1: we are all used to it as a book, yeah,
Speaker 1: which it wasn't intended to be. No, it wasn't. It
Speaker 1: was a girl's diary. I almost got the impression that
Speaker 1: she had her diary, which was a book that she
Speaker 1: wrote in what she made corrections in the stuff, but
Speaker 1: then she started a second, parallel one that kind of
Speaker 1: like copied it over and changed changed some of the names,
Speaker 1: like it's like it like. It almost appears as though
Speaker 1: she didn't start writing the diary with the intention of
Speaker 1: publishing it, but that perhaps she decided she thought to
Speaker 1: herself that maybe this could be published, and so she started.
Speaker 1: I hadn't you saying she had a second book or
Speaker 1: she was starting over somewhere else in that I have
Speaker 1: heard rumors to that effect that she started the second
Speaker 1: one that was loose blue leaf papers. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's possible. I don't know. Maybe because I do remember
Speaker 1: hearing about Ann's papers being scattered on the floor. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the diary was a bound book. Yeah, so so
Speaker 1: it was it was an autograph book, right, Yes, it
Speaker 1: was an autograph and white and red checked. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: that good detail. I didn't even know that, dude. No,
Speaker 1: that's not all we do. Very clear, we go further
Speaker 1: than the Wikipedia, Yes we do. Yeah. And Andy, by
Speaker 1: the way, if you want to investigate this mystery, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of websites out there. Oh my god. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. We kind of was straightway off path here. Uh,
Speaker 1: to finish off the story before we plunge into the
Speaker 1: suspects here. Um they were. The Hider stayed hit for
Speaker 1: twenty four or twenty five months until August fourth, nineteen four,
Speaker 1: when the Germans showed up and arrested arrested them and
Speaker 1: the rest of course is history. They were all sent
Speaker 1: to Auschwitz, where they mostly survived, but then in late
Speaker 1: nineteen Margot and Anne Frank were transferred to bergen Belson.
Speaker 1: Their mother, Edith stayed behind and starved to death in Auschwitz,
Speaker 1: and then in early nine there was a typhus epidemic
Speaker 1: in the bergen Belsen camp, and Margot and both died.
Speaker 1: Edith died of starvation because Anne and Margot had scabies
Speaker 1: and they weren't getting fed in their hospital, and so
Speaker 1: she was giving all her rations to them. They were
Speaker 1: shipped off, and then she subsequently starved because she there
Speaker 1: was no recovering from the amount of Yeah, she just
Speaker 1: gone too long. And I am I wrong in remembering that,
Speaker 1: And and Margot, We're gonna get sent somewhere other than
Speaker 1: the camp that they went to. But because they were
Speaker 1: held back and they might yeah, okay, yeah, but obviously
Speaker 1: if you can't figure out scabies means it was a
Speaker 1: filthy environment. I mean, I think most everybody knows the
Speaker 1: conditions that the camps were in the place they were
Speaker 1: put when they had scabies, had no electricity, and it
Speaker 1: was infested with rats. You know, that's they said, oh,
Speaker 1: you have scabies. Okay, go go in this building to recover,
Speaker 1: and it was just rat and worst darkness. Yeah, fun times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the bad time in history. Oh yeah, this
Speaker 1: kind of stuff is going to continue to happen, though,
Speaker 1: bravely predict that it'll happen again. But there's a little
Speaker 1: controversy over her date of deaths. I'm say mid February
Speaker 1: the say and of March, but the most recent scholarship
Speaker 1: on the subject says she died about mid February, yeah,
Speaker 1: which I honestly prefer. Yeah, I'd rather she died earlier,
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't so heartbreakingly close to the liberation
Speaker 1: in what was an April at the end of March.
Speaker 1: That's just hard. That's just two weeks away, I know,
Speaker 1: really bad. So yeah, so only Otto Frank survived out
Speaker 1: of all eight people. Yeah, that's so lucky for him.
Speaker 1: But he didn't have a lot to come home too.
Speaker 1: Apparently when he came home he was very skinny. Yeah. Bad.
Speaker 1: He moved in with with I don't think any of
Speaker 1: in concentration, was that, no, except for the guards. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he returned to Amsterdam and and moved in with
Speaker 1: with Meep and young Geese and and they're I'm not
Speaker 1: sure exactly when he got got back to Amsterdam, but
Speaker 1: he was awaiting word of of Margot and Anne, and
Speaker 1: he finally got word in July n that they were dead.
Speaker 1: So apparently that was kind of a blow. He knew
Speaker 1: pretty early that was dead, right, I think so, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think it was right around that time that
Speaker 1: that me pulled out the diary and the papers and
Speaker 1: gave them to him, and also let me talk about
Speaker 1: the helpers just a little bit. Obviously, the four people
Speaker 1: there were taken into custody. Victor Coogler and you know,
Speaker 1: Johannes Claiming were arrested and sent up to prison camp.
Speaker 1: And Googler was in the work camps almost until the
Speaker 1: end of the war. But he was being he was
Speaker 1: being marched like he had about six d other guys
Speaker 1: were being fourth marched and they were eventually supposedly going
Speaker 1: to go to Germany, but apparently there was some bombing
Speaker 1: going on in the immediate area. Everybody was taking cover.
Speaker 1: There was confusion. He managed to get away and so
Speaker 1: he escaped, so good for him. And then Claiman was
Speaker 1: released about six or seven weeks after he was arrested
Speaker 1: because he had had health problems, and so she's weird
Speaker 1: when we've just talked about the terrible health conditions in
Speaker 1: the places that these people were put. Well, he wasn't Jewish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wasn't Jewish, and so they weren't they weren't his heart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were sympathetic, yeah, but yeah. Uh. And then also,
Speaker 1: of course Meep and Beth were the two other ones.
Speaker 1: They're both women, of course, and they were they were
Speaker 1: interrogating release. And Meep said later that she kind of
Speaker 1: lucky break because the policeman the guy talked about before
Speaker 1: h his name was Carl Silberbauer, and he turns out
Speaker 1: he was from Vienna, and he was the guy who
Speaker 1: was interrogating her. Turns out Meep was also from Vienna.
Speaker 1: Then she just jumped up and smile and said, so
Speaker 1: I hear from your exit her from Vienna me too,
Speaker 1: you know. And so he stopped a little bit and
Speaker 1: cut her a break and let her go. It seems
Speaker 1: also would have been as the wife of somebody, there's
Speaker 1: some plausible deniability there. It seems easier to say my
Speaker 1: husband made me do it. Sensibilities of absolutely currently less so,
Speaker 1: but more than when you say, my husband may do
Speaker 1: what I didn't want to do it, but he said
Speaker 1: he beat me. And I'm from Vienna and all my
Speaker 1: the were childhood friends, and it's a little there's a
Speaker 1: little more plausible than the ability there. Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, so they went back to the annex the
Speaker 1: next day and gathered up some of the loose stuff
Speaker 1: like that, ants papers and the diary, and me kept
Speaker 1: those in a drawer. They read, they read a diary,
Speaker 1: and they decided it was pornographic and they burned it. No,
Speaker 1: but they did say that if if they had read it,
Speaker 1: she didn't, she say, she said, if I had read it,
Speaker 1: I would have burned it. She said that, yeah, she
Speaker 1: didn't read it. She respected ants privacy. She was expecting
Speaker 1: to actually and to survive because they all knew the
Speaker 1: war was close to end. The end. She was expecting
Speaker 1: to see Anne again, and so she planned to give
Speaker 1: it back to her. But she did say that apparently,
Speaker 1: turns out it had the names of all the helpers,
Speaker 1: not just the four in the building, but the other two.
Speaker 1: And it had the names of some of their black
Speaker 1: market suppliers in it. And so that's why she said
Speaker 1: she would have burned it. And so yeah, because if
Speaker 1: it had gotten if the Germans have got ahold of it,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the whole liability goes away. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: seen if somebody says, oh, she's been going all these
Speaker 1: different places, it's great, she totally knows what's going on,
Speaker 1: then you're you're just kind of screwed. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess lucky for us, me didn't read the diary,
Speaker 1: and so it survived, um in nineteen four. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: there have been numerous investigations, Uh, sixty eight, six, two
Speaker 1: thousand and three. Didn't the first investigation get launched because
Speaker 1: didn't Auto get the book put out in forty seven? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it came. Yeah, he got it published the first time
Speaker 1: in Is that correct? Yes, it was, yeah, And so
Speaker 1: that's that's why I got I go. Always got the
Speaker 1: feeling that the investigation in forty eight was prompted because
Speaker 1: of the instant popularity of the book. Yeah, I think so, yeah,
Speaker 1: and uhe And by the way, the one that was
Speaker 1: published in forty it was edited by Otto Frank because
Speaker 1: it had a few salicious bits in it, and so
Speaker 1: a little bit kissed a boy, right, like there's there's
Speaker 1: she talks about touching her genitals and stuff like, I
Speaker 1: get really offended. This is when my feminism well, I
Speaker 1: mean I think, yeah, this is when my kind of
Speaker 1: feminist flag flies. I get really really upset when people
Speaker 1: talk about how offensive and pornographic it is, because like,
Speaker 1: it's totally fine to talk about dudes masturbating all the time,
Speaker 1: but as soon as a fifteen year old girl is like,
Speaker 1: I'm exploring my body a little bit, people are like, no, pornographic.
Speaker 1: That's awful. My cannot read it. It's awful, bannit no,
Speaker 1: But you know, just like I just cared about it,
Speaker 1: about it. But the thing about it is Frank was
Speaker 1: her father, and probably he wanted to privacy a little bit,
Speaker 1: I understand at that point, but I was very private.
Speaker 1: This has come up to that schools have been giving
Speaker 1: their fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year old kids the unedited
Speaker 1: version of Diary of Young Girl, and parents are outraged
Speaker 1: because there's this little bit about Anne Frank discovering herself
Speaker 1: as a woman, and it's listen, if as a parent,
Speaker 1: I don't have the balls to talk to my children
Speaker 1: about sex, then take my place, because you don't have balls,
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. If I don't tell them about it that
Speaker 1: now they can learn about it from the internet. They do, yeah,
Speaker 1: they do. But anyway, I'm sorry, but to get really
Speaker 1: angry for anybody out there who didn't know. There's the
Speaker 1: unabridged version of it, which has got all these these
Speaker 1: little details and totally pornographic guys like five pages longer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think he cut I have no idea how much.
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is totally unrelated to our mystery.
Speaker 1: But there are people who claim that Otto Frank wrote
Speaker 1: the diary himself fake and there are people, Yeah, there
Speaker 1: are people who claim that the whole thing was a
Speaker 1: complete fake and a hoax, and there have been lawsuits
Speaker 1: over this and all kinds of back and forth. Lots
Speaker 1: of handwriting experts have confirmed it and wrote it, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean so obviously she did. But there are still
Speaker 1: people out there trying to claim that it's all just
Speaker 1: a fake. Yeah, yeah, just fiction, like eleven was an
Speaker 1: inside job. Well, let's be fair. Even if it is fiction,
Speaker 1: still a very compelling, interesting story that's important for people
Speaker 1: to read. Oh yeah, even though I'm not I'm probably
Speaker 1: never going to read it myself. But now that I know,
Speaker 1: I know that, I know the bare bones. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: get that. I got the lesson there. You know. We
Speaker 1: shouldn't dump on each other. Yeah yeah, be kind to
Speaker 1: each other, don't be Nazis. Yeah yeah, I don't gas
Speaker 1: to Jews. Yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, normal stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the stuff to teach you with citizenship back in school normally. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well let's uh, let's talk a little bit about some
Speaker 1: of the suspects that could have that could have thinked on.
Speaker 1: So it's this basically our theory section. Then yeah, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: these guys are in no particular order. Actually, our second
Speaker 1: suspect was actually the popular suspect first in the sixty
Speaker 1: three and then yeah, a little bit. Our first one
Speaker 1: is Tonny Olers, who was a business associated with autos.
Speaker 1: I think that I have to admit the relationship between
Speaker 1: Auto Frank and Tonny Owlers. I'm Tandy is short for
Speaker 1: anton or that's that's a nickname. But the relationship between
Speaker 1: those two is a little bit of a mystery to me. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of confusing, conflicting information out there. One
Speaker 1: is that they were just business associates, or friends gone
Speaker 1: south or enemies. I don't really do. Just the guy
Speaker 1: who was trying to extort money from Auto Well supposedly
Speaker 1: supposedly tried to extort a little money due to a
Speaker 1: letter that one of his employees had written, and that
Speaker 1: he was maybe kind of a braggerton. Yeah there was
Speaker 1: always that too, he uh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: a criminal. But anyway, apparently he did have a sort
Speaker 1: of rival business, but he actually bought stuff from his
Speaker 1: from Auto Frank's company, so he was maybe a bit
Speaker 1: of a middleman. Yeah, I think so. But I read
Speaker 1: in the Guardian from the UK that others did denounce
Speaker 1: Jews and members of the Dutch underground to the Germans
Speaker 1: during the war. So so so that's on mark in
Speaker 1: his favor for being our snitch. And in two thousand two,
Speaker 1: a writer named Caroline Lee published a biography of Auto
Speaker 1: Frank and read after that she was contacted by Tony
Speaker 1: Awler's son Anton, and Anton is sure that Tony was
Speaker 1: a rat. So his son she's even saying, oh no,
Speaker 1: my dad definitely did that. Actually, a number of stories
Speaker 1: in the past months where this has been the case,
Speaker 1: where he had a child after the factor has come
Speaker 1: out and said my parent was a scumbag. On obviously
Speaker 1: did it because that's I mean, that's what he's like.
Speaker 1: Children resent their parents and maybe like not always bad
Speaker 1: even if their parents are bad. Maybe maybe. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it does seem like Anton was not nothing like his dad.
Speaker 1: His dad was. His dad was a real piece of work,
Speaker 1: very you know, a huge anti semi pro Nazi. I
Speaker 1: think he was actually a member of the Dutch Nazi
Speaker 1: Party somewhere. Yeah. Anton contactas writer Carol Anley and says
Speaker 1: that he was he was the rat. And there are
Speaker 1: there's evidence that Tanny really didn't like Otto Frank even
Speaker 1: though they were associates, because Carol an Lee has got
Speaker 1: some copies of some letters that were written by Tanny apparently,
Speaker 1: so he didn't like add Also, there's there's one motive. Also,
Speaker 1: Tonny's brother Kaz told a land Lee that Tony told
Speaker 1: him at some point in the past that he was
Speaker 1: the one who would rid it out the Frank family.
Speaker 1: And also one of the guys who showed up at
Speaker 1: the raid on the Annex in August fourth was a
Speaker 1: friend of Tony's. Yeah, he was, he was actually he
Speaker 1: had actually apparently moved in with them and moved into
Speaker 1: the same building at least but just the day before.
Speaker 1: And her book Lee's said that the reason that others
Speaker 1: held off as long as he did before he dropped
Speaker 1: his dime is that his company actually depended on Otto
Speaker 1: Frank's company for supplies. But his company went bankrupt and
Speaker 1: so at that's at that point it didn't really matter.
Speaker 1: And there was also a bounty on Jews of forty
Speaker 1: Guilder's head, and so there was a money motive there.
Speaker 1: So Tony Olers told people he did it. He had
Speaker 1: a motive to do it, which included money, anti Semitism,
Speaker 1: and a personal dislike of Auto Frank. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, how did he find out there were people
Speaker 1: living in the end? Yeah? I don't know how often
Speaker 1: he went by that business that apparently there is there
Speaker 1: evidence that he went by on an occasional basis, at
Speaker 1: least to pick stuff up. But was he there long
Speaker 1: enough to actually find a detector, you know, figure out
Speaker 1: that there were people there? I don't think so well.
Speaker 1: I guess it's possible if he had business dealings with
Speaker 1: Auto while the back annex was still a laboratory, it's
Speaker 1: possible that eventually he kind of put two and two
Speaker 1: together and said, there is an annex back there. No
Speaker 1: one seen the Franks recently, and they conveniently aren't using
Speaker 1: that space anymore. Well, yeah, but it's probably worth your
Speaker 1: time to go check that out. It could have been.
Speaker 1: I mean, I still think that I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure that there was any way that he could
Speaker 1: have known, unless there's one way possibly could have figured
Speaker 1: it out. But I just want to say against his
Speaker 1: being the rat at the time he made his statements,
Speaker 1: this is well after the fact. This is well after that,
Speaker 1: after the die. Yeah, and it was and so it
Speaker 1: was a huge, huge deal. It was all well known,
Speaker 1: and that's when he started telling people that he was
Speaker 1: the one that read him out. But he was a
Speaker 1: well known liar, and he just probably wanted to, you know,
Speaker 1: insert himself into the story. Even though that it makes
Speaker 1: him kind of the bad guy. He probably didn't care
Speaker 1: because he was a jerk. He possibly could have found
Speaker 1: out from one or more of the employees that worked there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And maybe the employees figured it out and they were there.
Speaker 1: They were the guys that were you know, much more
Speaker 1: like and they they would be the ones to yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's certainly possible that they would have figured
Speaker 1: it out, but you know, liked auto or didn't have
Speaker 1: the guts to have that on their conscience or whatever.
Speaker 1: They maybe didn't even know kind of vaguely thought, or
Speaker 1: even you you know, go out at the bar and
Speaker 1: you're like, that's the weirdest thing. Uh huh. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's haunted or something. Toilets flushing up by themselves. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think most people are not about to wrap
Speaker 1: people out and send him off to their desks. She
Speaker 1: would hope not you would you kind of hope for
Speaker 1: the good in people. But during this time, I kind
Speaker 1: of I'm willing to that goes out the window for
Speaker 1: a lot of people because there's suddenly the fear and
Speaker 1: self preservation. Yeah. And also and also, you know that
Speaker 1: anti Semitism was pretty pretty rampant in Europe at the time.
Speaker 1: It kind of still is in a way, but it's
Speaker 1: not as bad as it was, but it's still there.
Speaker 1: Let's move on to our next suspect, Villain van Maaren.
Speaker 1: That's a mouthful, I know. Villain van Maaren. Uh. He
Speaker 1: was hired as a warehouse manager after the Franks and
Speaker 1: company took up residence in the annex. Apparently the previous
Speaker 1: manager become ill and left his job, So he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have felt the affinity for Auto that Yeah, not really,
Speaker 1: other employees would have. Yeah, probably not. It doesn't doesn't
Speaker 1: make him a bad guy, but he didn't know. He
Speaker 1: didn't know Auto and his family. But he was reportedly
Speaker 1: really curious about the rooms at the back of the
Speaker 1: building and asked a lot of strange questions, like one
Speaker 1: time he asked to the guy named Otto Frank work
Speaker 1: here at some point? Where where would he have gotten
Speaker 1: that from? Well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe he got
Speaker 1: it from Tommy Ollers or you know, it might it
Speaker 1: might just be that he came across an old invoice
Speaker 1: that was signed by Otto Frank too. I mean, who knows.
Speaker 1: I think that that could have been the entire genesis
Speaker 1: of the question. So it's not necessarily that suspicious. He
Speaker 1: may have at one point, at one point or another,
Speaker 1: heard some noises. People get careless, especially after two years. Well,
Speaker 1: and if he's the manager, there are people who take
Speaker 1: that position amazingly seriously, and everything that goes on in
Speaker 1: that place needs to be under their supervision, and they
Speaker 1: need to know, so he may have felt that he
Speaker 1: had to investigate it all. Yeah, I know, and he
Speaker 1: was he did suspect that, he did suspect that people
Speaker 1: were entering the warehouse at night, and he left these
Speaker 1: little tell tales around. Yeah, and I guess it's. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at that point you think maybe he thought it was
Speaker 1: people breaking in, might have thought that maybe that it
Speaker 1: was or water was breaking in and they were going
Speaker 1: to take inventory. And that point, if you're the foreman,
Speaker 1: you're the one who gets screwed if stuff goes missing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't understand that, although at the same time, the
Speaker 1: interesting thing is is that he was actually stealing stuff
Speaker 1: from the warehouse himself. Yeah, well, I guess then you
Speaker 1: then he's building a case, right, He's saying people are
Speaker 1: breaking in, it's the weirdest thing, and things are going missing,
Speaker 1: that that's entirely possible, and the blame doesn't fall on him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't know if the if the
Speaker 1: hiders ever, I know they came out into the offices occasionally,
Speaker 1: I don't know if they ever actually went down into
Speaker 1: the warehouse. Probably over the courses of two years, at
Speaker 1: some point or another, than you yeah. I mean, I
Speaker 1: you know, if I were hiding, were hiding up there,
Speaker 1: I would I would leave it two in the morning
Speaker 1: and just take a brief walk and come back. And
Speaker 1: they might have even done that. I don't know. Be risky,
Speaker 1: but you gotta you gotta do it. There is a
Speaker 1: there are a few references to Van maren in and
Speaker 1: Frank's diary, believe it or not. Apparently the hiders were
Speaker 1: wary of him. They've been informed about him, and he's
Speaker 1: questioning and all that stuff, and so he set traps
Speaker 1: and stuff, not not so much traps as like he
Speaker 1: would he would like leave things around that would easily
Speaker 1: be knocked off if somebody walked by, like a piece
Speaker 1: of paper on the edge of a piece of furniture
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So he was he really
Speaker 1: seriously felt that somebody was getting in there, and so
Speaker 1: I can see why that would be a cause for
Speaker 1: concern for them. Yeah, and so super super snoopy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it really put the Franks and the hiders
Speaker 1: and the helpers, I mean the hiders and the helpers
Speaker 1: who put them much kind of a strange position because
Speaker 1: this guy was because he was so inquisitive, he was
Speaker 1: a threat. He should have they should have fired him.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you fired the guy
Speaker 1: and he's all embittered, he might go to the police
Speaker 1: with what Yeah, I know that might have been the
Speaker 1: thing to do. I know, but make him sit in
Speaker 1: that bathroom that you can't and the diary would have
Speaker 1: been and Frank girl assassin. Yeah, yeah, here's here's what
Speaker 1: Frank said about him that he said, quote, we wouldn't
Speaker 1: care what Mr Van Maren thinks of the situation or
Speaker 1: thought of the situation, except that he's known to be
Speaker 1: unreliable and to possess a high degree of curiosity. He's
Speaker 1: not want to let himself be fobbed off with a
Speaker 1: flimsy excuse. So he wasn't buying the oh we just
Speaker 1: closed it off excuse, right, yeah, or the whole evidence
Speaker 1: said the hiders were coming out and moving around in
Speaker 1: the rest of the building after hours, and uh that
Speaker 1: was the theft, of course. Uh. And a worker at
Speaker 1: the warehouse, Lamberate Hardtog, testified that Van Maren told him
Speaker 1: two weeks before the raid that Jews were hiding in
Speaker 1: the building. Suspicious. Yeah, yeah, so it sounds like Van
Speaker 1: Maren knew, but He was questioned in the and the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties three investigations, and he admitted that he had
Speaker 1: suspicions they knew. He knew something was up in the annex,
Speaker 1: but he didn't he didn't tip off the Gestapo. He
Speaker 1: said he really didn't like him though. No, he wasn't
Speaker 1: pro Nazi at all. Uh yeah, And so you know,
Speaker 1: maybe he needed the money. I don't know, but he
Speaker 1: was apparently aware of Dutch resistance activity in his neighborhood
Speaker 1: and and didn't tip anybody off about that stuff either.
Speaker 1: So he wasn't pro Nazi or pro German or anything.
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to think errant word to the wrong person
Speaker 1: at this time, you know, you yeah, if he's if
Speaker 1: he's like thicking like Tanya talking to Tanya Allers and says, hey,
Speaker 1: you know there's there's sinking stuff going on here, or
Speaker 1: even talking to like a co worker out at the
Speaker 1: bar that somebody happens to be at. You know that
Speaker 1: you think you're safe, you think nobody's listening, and you say,
Speaker 1: it's it's weird. It's curtains are getting left open, my
Speaker 1: traps are getting they made the post slip sink ships
Speaker 1: just saying the simplest thing, the right set of ears
Speaker 1: puts it together and the whole thing falls apart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's it's possible. I tend to think that he's
Speaker 1: he's innocent, and meet Geese for her, I want me
Speaker 1: say that, right, meet peace. That's better. Said in in
Speaker 1: an interview that she didn't think Van Marin was the informant,
Speaker 1: and I think Otto, I think actually Otto Frank said
Speaker 1: so too. I don't know. I The thing I keep
Speaker 1: struggling with is, you know, like Steve said, with the
Speaker 1: segregation doesn't make sense to me. The fact that somebody
Speaker 1: could in good conscience not feel awful about themselves in
Speaker 1: telling people these people are someplace and you know they're
Speaker 1: up to like almost certain death, that's insane to me.
Speaker 1: Getting in that mindset is insane to me. And unless
Speaker 1: you are kind of a liar, braggart or brown noser
Speaker 1: or pro Nazi, I can't imagine anybody who wasn't avidly
Speaker 1: pro Nazi deliberately turning people in. No. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're a sociopath and you're and you're
Speaker 1: not you don't really care one way together about the Nazis,
Speaker 1: but you you're a sociopath and it's forty guilders ahead,
Speaker 1: so heyking out why not. But the thing is, Joe
Speaker 1: and I talked about this story a couple of days go,
Speaker 1: and the thing that I was bringing up is because
Speaker 1: he was basically saying the same thing, and I was
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that, well, there's these people that
Speaker 1: we like, you know, the collaborators, people hate, the collaborators
Speaker 1: who helped the Nazis do what they did but didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily support them. A lot of those people did what
Speaker 1: they did out of fear and just this thought that
Speaker 1: this is my only way to survive. These people are
Speaker 1: gonna win, and I can either go ahead and die
Speaker 1: or I can survive. And so it could be one
Speaker 1: of those situations where somebody felt required to say something.
Speaker 1: I don't have a choice here. If I don't say
Speaker 1: something and they find out, I know, they're gonna kill
Speaker 1: both of us. Yeah, I know there was. There was.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of collaboration going on World War two. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: like the famous French Resistance. Uh you know, turns out
Speaker 1: everybody was in the French resistance, but not really, not
Speaker 1: not at all. Yeah, same with the resistance in with
Speaker 1: the Dutch. But luckily there were still plenty of people
Speaker 1: like our six helpers for example. Yeah, we're some good
Speaker 1: people around. Oh yeah, there were plenty of good people,
Speaker 1: but there were plenty of rats. Okay. Our next suspect,
Speaker 1: Martins Slieger's who was the night watchman at the business.
Speaker 1: Although he wasn't actually on premises. He uh, he was
Speaker 1: like the active one or he Yeah, he was responsible
Speaker 1: for a number of properties. So he bicycled around the canals,
Speaker 1: you know, just checking on various properties. And uh, he
Speaker 1: noticed in April nine the building had been burg old.
Speaker 1: Apparently the door was open or something. So he called
Speaker 1: in a policeman and then went through the building looking
Speaker 1: for nearby wells. Didn't find any, and got as far
Speaker 1: as as the bookcase, but didn't discover the n X.
Speaker 1: I heard they the policeman settled that I don't know
Speaker 1: what exactly that was about. I mean, obviously it didn't
Speaker 1: fill it with it enough to move it, move it
Speaker 1: out aside and see that there was a door behind it.
Speaker 1: I get the impression that the bookcase wasn't flush against
Speaker 1: the wall. If you look at the pictures of it
Speaker 1: from the Ann Frank House and I've seen pictures of
Speaker 1: it open, and unfortunately, the pictures I've seen where it's closed,
Speaker 1: they're straight on. But I get the impression that there
Speaker 1: was a bit of a recess between the door and
Speaker 1: the bookcase itself, and somebody may have figured it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: i'ment sure that the pictures you were looking at were
Speaker 1: all recreations, because I don't think there's any pictures of
Speaker 1: the original one. Oh okay, see, and these are these
Speaker 1: are things that we're from the Inn Frank House, So
Speaker 1: I don't know that they may very well. Oh okay, see,
Speaker 1: that's great to know, because I presumed, like an idiot,
Speaker 1: that the an Frank House would have actual pictures kind
Speaker 1: of things like that sort of thing you wouldn't take
Speaker 1: pictures of if you had this bookcase. They was covering
Speaker 1: something you wouldn't be like, and this is our bookcase.
Speaker 1: It's not suspicious at all, but we have pictures of it. Anyway,
Speaker 1: years you know, after Otto got home, somehow I think
Speaker 1: they destroyed it. Okay, that was my impression him in
Speaker 1: that it was just like that bookcase was not going
Speaker 1: back up. Okay, Okay, they never mind. I why, I
Speaker 1: don't know why. I don't know what the fiddling with it.
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what that entails. It's kind of vague. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and going this bookcase sucks. None of the books come
Speaker 1: off of it for some reason. I think I read
Speaker 1: something that said that they had fiddled with it and
Speaker 1: moved it a bit, but everyone was really confident that
Speaker 1: the police officers hadn't reported them. But that I'm I
Speaker 1: don't know, I want. I want to believe that, like
Speaker 1: everybody knew that the Franks were back there, and everybody said,
Speaker 1: but let's keep them back there. That in my best
Speaker 1: of the stories, Well, yeah, I think that they were
Speaker 1: probably after after more than two years. There's probably a
Speaker 1: lot of people suspected something. Oh, I'm sure a lot,
Speaker 1: and everybody but one person kept their mouth shut. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I can't I really can't imagine a situation in
Speaker 1: which somebody would say, oh, yeah, Otto used to own
Speaker 1: that building, and there's that annex they don't use back
Speaker 1: there anymore, and we haven't been the Franks in two years,
Speaker 1: but stores of Jews, Yeah, not suspicious at all. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine a single person who knew that situation not
Speaker 1: thinking they were back there. But I hopefully everybody just
Speaker 1: kept their mouth shut. I think I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people did. Um. And actually I forgot to mention
Speaker 1: that when they left their apartment, they sort of they
Speaker 1: left behind some papers and things like that that kind
Speaker 1: of just kind of give people the impression that they
Speaker 1: had gone to Switzerland. I heard they left it in
Speaker 1: disarray as well. They let it kind of looked like
Speaker 1: they had just left, really left in a hurry, and
Speaker 1: they so that whenever the house was searched, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: looked like people I go, oh, they went Switzerland. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know. So uh, anyway, let's go back to our
Speaker 1: our night watchman, Martin Slieger's. Yeah, there's really nothing against
Speaker 1: him to speak of. I mean, he was just doing
Speaker 1: his job. He called the police and they went through
Speaker 1: the place. And so I would say that even though
Speaker 1: he's been named as a suspect by a few places,
Speaker 1: he's pretty weak. Pretty weak suspect. Yeah, you name it
Speaker 1: is a suspect because he might have maybe known about
Speaker 1: it maybe. Alright, alright, Okay, our next suspect, Nellie bush
Speaker 1: kW Nellie Blushka was the sister of bet Bush kil
Speaker 1: Uh and just this year, a book like April two,
Speaker 1: a book by by be bush Kyl's son and a
Speaker 1: Flemish journalist claimed that bebs sister, Nellie blush Kaw might
Speaker 1: have been the rat there. The basis of this claim
Speaker 1: is that she was in the a Nazi collaborator for
Speaker 1: four years, and they based this mostly on testimony from
Speaker 1: Beb's other sister, Diny, You don't do you think, Dinny Dinny,
Speaker 1: and also a guy who was Beyonce at that time,
Speaker 1: Burtis Yeah, Burdas, Yeah, Burtas. She reportedly, this is Nellie
Speaker 1: once again, the sister of Beb. Reportedly she was said
Speaker 1: to beb and Johannes, Well, Skyle, go then go to
Speaker 1: your Jews. Even though they hadn't told her. Somehow she
Speaker 1: seemed to have found out about it so well, she
Speaker 1: had a suspicion of some kind. It seems that was
Speaker 1: the one who's doing all of the grocery shopping, right, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: never mind. I was gonna say, if somebody's coming home
Speaker 1: with a bunch of groceries from a bunch of places
Speaker 1: and then you're not eating any of them and they're
Speaker 1: just appearing anyways, evidence is pretty stark. But if it
Speaker 1: wasn't that then? Well I was gonna say, though, is
Speaker 1: that in the defense of this Nellie for Nellie? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing that correctly. I don't know pronouncing it okay,
Speaker 1: because I'm the great mispronouncer anger of the Internet. Just
Speaker 1: making sure probably this isn't so it's probably a new Week,
Speaker 1: I know. The point is, My point is that they
Speaker 1: may have been in private, outspoken critics of the Nazi
Speaker 1: rhetoric and against Jews. They may have said, this is
Speaker 1: so dumb, why are we doing this and being poed
Speaker 1: at him. Just fine, go do that, go with me,
Speaker 1: with your your people that you want to save. It
Speaker 1: could have it's you know, parents, you held this, fine,
Speaker 1: go to the rainforest and save the squirrels or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, I mean it could
Speaker 1: have been. It could have been just saying hey, it's
Speaker 1: innocuous at that point. Yeah, exactly. And so again that
Speaker 1: the case against Nellie is pretty pretty thin. Again, the
Speaker 1: helpers had good reason to keep their mouth shut about this,
Speaker 1: big time good reasons. Yeah. They actually the Helpers got
Speaker 1: off roll easy compared to what could have happened to them. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so because I think it wasn't it. I could
Speaker 1: be making this up, but I'm pretty sure that helpers
Speaker 1: were treated as soon as you were a Jew sympathizer,
Speaker 1: you were as good as a Jew. Well, yeah, not
Speaker 1: not quite that bad. When these guys got caught there,
Speaker 1: they're punishment was not nearly as hard guys, But I
Speaker 1: think that that was the kind of but they were.
Speaker 1: But there you could have they could have been executed,
Speaker 1: you know, they really could have been executed or set
Speaker 1: off to one of the one of the big camps,
Speaker 1: Auschwitz or somewhere like that. And that's that's exactly what
Speaker 1: it's lesson of history. Of the two choices, execution was
Speaker 1: the best better, yeah, yeah. Otherwise yeah, it's quicker, are Yeah.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you go off and you either are starved and
Speaker 1: worked to death, or you die disease like Anne Frank didn't,
Speaker 1: or you're experimented on or you're experimented on the somehow. Yeah, magneto.
Speaker 1: Let's move on to another suspects here. Lena Hardtag also
Speaker 1: known as Lena Hardtag Van it's probably the lead a
Speaker 1: hard Dog, but they're Hardtag van Bladder and I'm probably
Speaker 1: just announcing that too. She was the wife of that
Speaker 1: warehouse worker. I was talking about hard talk. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he was the one that was told by Van Maren
Speaker 1: that there were Jews in the building. She also worked
Speaker 1: in the building as a cleaner. Uh and so undoubtedly
Speaker 1: her husband told her what he had heard. Uh and
Speaker 1: and she was named as a suspect in the Biography
Speaker 1: of A Frank, written by Melissa Mueller when published in
Speaker 1: nine According to testimony in nineteen investigation, Ana Anagano, who
Speaker 1: was somebody who Lena also worked for. She didn't just
Speaker 1: clean the spaces at Otto Frank's building, she cleaned other
Speaker 1: places too. Yeah, so she was an employer, and Agana
Speaker 1: was Lena's employer. And Lena said that she was worried
Speaker 1: about her husband's safety because he worked in a building
Speaker 1: where Jews were being hidden. So it appears that Lena knew.
Speaker 1: Lena and her husband both knew about the Franks. But this, again,
Speaker 1: this goes in line with what Devin was talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: where everybody's like, oh, there's nobody in that building, but
Speaker 1: we all really know. Yeah, Like that's that's that's how
Speaker 1: I take that. Yeah, I know I think that I
Speaker 1: can see the I guess I can see her going
Speaker 1: and in attempt to protect her husband from being accused
Speaker 1: as a sympathizer, going to the authorities and reporting and saying,
Speaker 1: my husband and I couldn't possibly be involved in this thing.
Speaker 1: There are Jews living up there. We told you, so
Speaker 1: it's not our fault. We just found out. Yeah. But um,
Speaker 1: the on the on the other side of the ledger though,
Speaker 1: if she was so concerned about her husband, then why
Speaker 1: was he there in the day of the raid because
Speaker 1: he was Yeah, well, I know, I don't believe it
Speaker 1: for a second, but I'm I don't know, I'm playing
Speaker 1: Deuvil's advocate. I'm going back and forth. She's a weekendidate.
Speaker 1: On the other other hand, one of the I can't
Speaker 1: remember which one it was, one of the helpers that
Speaker 1: was at the office that day, said that the one
Speaker 1: that when the police showed up, uh, he like already
Speaker 1: has his coat on it. He was out the door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like he had spotted the cops. Are knew the cops
Speaker 1: for coming at a certain time, and it's like, I'm
Speaker 1: out of here. So I don't know, I really don't know.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's just it just seems like a
Speaker 1: bad idea because the problem from his point of view,
Speaker 1: if if he and his wife we're actually thinking about
Speaker 1: ratting on the Franks and company, is that the most
Speaker 1: of the people that you work for are going to
Speaker 1: get carted off to the camps and most likely not
Speaker 1: a great business model. Yeah and so and so by
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, you're kind of guaranteeing the closure
Speaker 1: of the business that pays your salary. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: you actually had a financial incentive to keep his mouth shut.
Speaker 1: I think you think. Yeah. So that's why I'm thinking
Speaker 1: both Lena and her husband are probably not suspects as
Speaker 1: far as another suspect. And Jane know, uh, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, want the hell why the hell not? Because
Speaker 1: she did she was told that there were Jews hiding
Speaker 1: in the warehouse. But I just threw that one in
Speaker 1: for fun. I don't. I don't have any reason to
Speaker 1: believe she is. And of course another theory is that, uh,
Speaker 1: they rated themselves out just by getting careless leading windows.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest, this is the one I'm
Speaker 1: leaning towards. How many times have you moved into a
Speaker 1: place and you've had to be one you had to
Speaker 1: do something very specifically and there's these rigid rules, and
Speaker 1: then you start to get more and more lax about it.
Speaker 1: You're gonna get careless, and I gonna get careless. You're
Speaker 1: gonna leave the window cracked, you're gonna leave the blinds parted,
Speaker 1: you're gonna talk in a normal voice instead of a
Speaker 1: hush tone. You're just gonna automatically flush the toilet in
Speaker 1: the middle of the afternoon because you've really felt like
Speaker 1: that should have been flushed right away. I mean, like this,
Speaker 1: this just happens. People just tend to get comfortable and
Speaker 1: go back to their old habit, particularly if you've been
Speaker 1: living there for two years. Two years and you think, well,
Speaker 1: we haven't caught yet. Yeah, I get just thinking, what
Speaker 1: the hell we're bulletproof. Yeah, but you know, I see,
Speaker 1: like Frank up the Granma phone. Well let's have a
Speaker 1: tap dancing competition. Yeah. But yeah, I still I still
Speaker 1: think that it wasn't one of those situations where somebody
Speaker 1: heard some weird stuff going on next door the building
Speaker 1: across the way I was talking in the cafe was
Speaker 1: overheard by a Nazi collaborator. There was a there was
Speaker 1: a deliberate tip off. There was a phone call made
Speaker 1: so somebody did wrap them out. It just was probably
Speaker 1: not nobody on our list here. Could have been somebody
Speaker 1: who lived nearby, somebody lived across the street or worked
Speaker 1: across the street and just kept seeing this weird stuff. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And so quite possibly one of their neighbors that suspected
Speaker 1: something was going on there or saw people and there
Speaker 1: when when it was a business where there shouldn't have
Speaker 1: been people there on the weekend or after hours, there
Speaker 1: was money to be made. Um, it's a great way
Speaker 1: to curry favor with the occupiers. So that most likely
Speaker 1: is it probably nobody on our list, just some random
Speaker 1: person watching the building and thought, hey, there's some jew
Speaker 1: hiding going on here, and wow, did you just make
Speaker 1: that one up? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Uh. The problem with
Speaker 1: the mystery is there's just too many people who could
Speaker 1: have known and could have had suspicions. Yeah, the policeman,
Speaker 1: I remember I talked about him, Carl silver Bauer, the
Speaker 1: guy from Vienna who was Yeah, he headed the raid
Speaker 1: and he was tracked down in Vienna in nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: three by Simon Visenthal. We've heard of Simon's Visens, all right,
Speaker 1: I think, so we never heard him. I haven't very
Speaker 1: very famous Nazi hunter. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew I'd heard the name. Yeah, and it's a
Speaker 1: Visenthal tracked him down in Vienna because he was back
Speaker 1: in Vienna. He was working in the Vienna Police Force
Speaker 1: at the time, and he was asked about the call
Speaker 1: that was made, and silver Bauer said that the call
Speaker 1: was made to his superior officer. He had no idea
Speaker 1: who the caller was, and he was he was just
Speaker 1: basically told to go to the apartment or go to
Speaker 1: the annex and arrest people. And so well that's what
Speaker 1: he did. But he had no idea and unfortunately the guy,
Speaker 1: the superior officer who actually took the call, but it's
Speaker 1: suicide not long after the war. So the one person
Speaker 1: who probably knew the identity of the caller at the gender.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the gender, yeah, because nobody even knows the gender.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have said it was a woman,
Speaker 1: but nobody really knows that for sure. Incidentally, silver Bauer
Speaker 1: he was he was suspended from his job at the
Speaker 1: Vienna Police Well, yeah, because he had been doing this,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of collaborating kind of stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: and and then but it turned out Otto Frank of
Speaker 1: all people have put an a word in his favor.
Speaker 1: He said that he felt like silver Bauer had been
Speaker 1: very civilized and nice to them and hadn't been hadn't
Speaker 1: been brutal or anything like that or cruel. And then
Speaker 1: did you hear a lot of stories of guys in
Speaker 1: that position, Yeah, yeah, and and that he felt Frank
Speaker 1: felt that he was just doing his job and following
Speaker 1: orders and so and so that actually got him reinstated
Speaker 1: in the Vienna Police Force. That's one of those kind
Speaker 1: of like restorative moments for me, you know, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: like restores my faith in humanity. That somebody who's gone
Speaker 1: through lost literally everything that they ever had in their
Speaker 1: entire life, and it's gone through just more hell than
Speaker 1: we could ever understand, would be so forgiving to be
Speaker 1: able to say that guy was just doing his job.
Speaker 1: It wasn't his fault. That's on the level of the
Speaker 1: things that you hear about like Gandhi or the Dali
Speaker 1: Lama do where somebody brutalizes and beats the holy hell
Speaker 1: out of him and they just turn around and there
Speaker 1: it's not your fault, I forgive you, or something. Sometimes
Speaker 1: with shoot like mass shootings. Yeah, every once in a
Speaker 1: while people will come and comfort the family of the shooter,
Speaker 1: you know, the people who are families of the victims.
Speaker 1: That's insane to me. I would like to say that
Speaker 1: I would be that big of a person if something
Speaker 1: like that happened to me, but I definitely would not.
Speaker 1: I'd be like, no, that did it it with his Now,
Speaker 1: I think that this is why we do show stories
Speaker 1: that are over five years old. So the kid get
Speaker 1: like that because yeah, yeah, I agree, and I think
Speaker 1: that I don't. I don't think that Otto Frank was
Speaker 1: you know, all saint like in Gandhi like her. But
Speaker 1: I think that was an incredible moment. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you know, you know, you got this this one
Speaker 1: guy who's you know, perfectly frie fine and perfectly nice
Speaker 1: to you. It says Sarah, I'm so sorry, but I
Speaker 1: gotta take you away. I apologize, you know, I was sympathetic,
Speaker 1: but you know, if I don't do what they tell
Speaker 1: me to do, they're shoot me. So yeah, and there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of other dudes here watching what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So so that's about it, unless you guys
Speaker 1: have any many other theories or suspects. No, not really. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Actually I was gonna I was gonna try to like
Speaker 1: fit the chupa cop into this one, but Shanna told
Speaker 1: me no way. I read that she did. She like
Speaker 1: used all three of us. She was like, if Steve,
Speaker 1: I mean, Devin, I mean you trying to blame this
Speaker 1: on the chop of cabra. Yeah, now we're not gonna
Speaker 1: go there, no chupercabra for this one. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: that's it. I think that unless you know, it's still possible.
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody might somewhere find some papers or something.
Speaker 1: I mean, but at this point, I think that all
Speaker 1: of that stuff has been picked through with such a
Speaker 1: fine toothcomb. Oh my god, I mean, this is this
Speaker 1: is one of another one of those ones where we
Speaker 1: talked about the hit kaifek. It's it's unsolvable at this point. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The key pieces of the puzzle are just gone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they are right now. It's it would be just an
Speaker 1: entire fluke if you came across you know, somebody's papers
Speaker 1: and everything like that, and it was all very very
Speaker 1: very documented and everything maybe okay possible, I doubt I
Speaker 1: doubt that's going to happen. If you've got any theories
Speaker 1: of your own. No, you can send us an email.
Speaker 1: That's at Thinking Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: If you are indeed the and you're still alive while
Speaker 1: you're pretty old, but we love to hear from you,
Speaker 1: but we would love to hear from it. Come on,
Speaker 1: rat send us an email. Uh our website where you
Speaker 1: can Yeah, I think our website is Thinking Sideways podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. Of course you can listen to episodes there,
Speaker 1: leave comments, you can check our links, which we always
Speaker 1: put put up links, and there's that merch there is
Speaker 1: to get a T shirt or a mug or something.
Speaker 1: And then we've got to donate button and the Patreon
Speaker 1: button there but which, by the way, we haven't said
Speaker 1: this in a while, and this is our bad. You know,
Speaker 1: people have been hitting those buttons, and thank you very much.
Speaker 1: We've been remiss. We've been very bad about saying that.
Speaker 1: That's really yeah, that is really true. Yeah, people have
Speaker 1: been like hitting the Patreon appreciate rock yea. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys have to offset the costs of maintaining the
Speaker 1: website and all that, because you know, it does cost
Speaker 1: us money because we get a huge amount of traffic,
Speaker 1: so I means we have to pay extra. Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: for that, for for the website. What else? iTunes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can find us on iTunes, so please subscribe and
Speaker 1: review good review preferably. You can stream us from just
Speaker 1: about anywhere. There's all kinds of streaming services. We're on Facebook.
Speaker 1: We have both our page and a group, so you
Speaker 1: can be part of both of those. And we're on
Speaker 1: Twitter thinking sideways, not thinking, but thinking. I actually did
Speaker 1: a tweet the other day. Yeah, that's rare. Actually I
Speaker 1: didn't notice that you did a tweet, so I'm I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to go back and work at there was
Speaker 1: a single sentence in response to something, because that's all
Speaker 1: I know how to tweet. I don't know how I
Speaker 1: feel about that. We also have the sub subreddit thinking.
Speaker 1: There's a there's an attempt at a conversation of every episode.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting if you're on reddit subscribe. I don't
Speaker 1: of those conversations are happening on Facebook. Yeah, that seems
Speaker 1: to be the more popular way. I'm not gonna say
Speaker 1: it's the better way, but it's the more popular way currently.
Speaker 1: But absolutely, the reddit thread is another place to go
Speaker 1: and discuss these things, and I'm there. If you see
Speaker 1: any of us quote unquote us talking on a reddit,
Speaker 1: it's me. Yeah, probably come talk to me. Yeah. What
Speaker 1: else we got to talk about here? Patreon much of
Speaker 1: that already, that's that's entirely voluntary, right, you can pledge
Speaker 1: a certain amount per episode. What's what's the eddress for
Speaker 1: that forum? So everybody knows what it is. It's Patreon
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Speaker 1: N dot com, slash thinking sideways, keeper easy, and you
Speaker 1: can you can go out there and pledge, you know,
Speaker 1: up to I don't know if there's a limit if
Speaker 1: there's not, so you can play pledge like a million
Speaker 1: episode if you want to. And I will go ahead
Speaker 1: and say, if you pledge a million episode, you own us.
Speaker 1: Be realistic for our listeners. Hundred bucks, hutterbucks, realistically realistic episode.
Speaker 1: It's about the average we're seeing. Yeah, we we joke
Speaker 1: about this, but again, I know we said this every
Speaker 1: evens is so helpful. It'd be amazed at how those
Speaker 1: things add up, and they really do help us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we like Yeah, So that's about it. Um any last
Speaker 1: parting thoughts you guys, No, I don't have anything else Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean either, sorry and I'm just depressed now yeah
Speaker 1: I sad story yeah no wait wait wait to pick
Speaker 1: us up. Thanks do. We'll do something cheerful next week
Speaker 1: to to to cheerful stories from Joe in a row
Speaker 1: Ye wait buddy, sorry about that. It will be something
Speaker 1: I'm going to do like an Easter bunny story next week.
Speaker 1: Sweet bye everybody, Bye guys. Ow