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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not supported by an inscrutable figure who

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Speaker 1: slash thinking sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I don't under you never know stories of things we

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Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey there, welcome again

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Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined by

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Speaker 1: my incredibly good looking co host Steve and devon guys say, Hi, Hi,

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Speaker 1: So anyway you guys, Yeah, do you want to do

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Speaker 1: that again? No? I like it because I'm incredibly attractive

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Speaker 1: exactly all right, So anyway, folks, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a mystery that surrounds and Frank, who you probably

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Speaker 1: have heard of, but for a few of you haven't heard.

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Speaker 1: And Frank was a teenage Jewish girl who spent more

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Speaker 1: than two years hiding in some rooms behind the business

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Speaker 1: in Amsterdam, along with their family and four other people.

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Speaker 1: Is that ragman a bells uh? And then one day

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Speaker 1: in August ninety four, German police rated the building and

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Speaker 1: took them away, and of course, says you all know,

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Speaker 1: they met a grim fate yeah, Auschwitz and Bergen Belson

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Speaker 1: and all that stuff. But it appears there and then

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Speaker 1: that somebody ratted them out. So our mystery is is

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Speaker 1: who thinked on the Franks? Yeah? Yeah, well this has

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Speaker 1: actually been heavily investigated. There was an investigation in nine

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, in nineteen eighty six, two thousand three investigation.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I have books have been written, you know,

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Speaker 1: suspects put forward. First of all, before we start talking

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Speaker 1: about our mystery, I want to take a minute to

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Speaker 1: thank our listener Maggie, who said, as did this story

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Speaker 1: way way back when, like December last year. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: sorry for the long way, Maggie, but you know, here

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Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, well we're here. We finally arrived. I'd

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Speaker 1: also like to thank our listeners. Shanna hopefully hippernuts that

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Speaker 1: correctly Shanna. Uh. Janna speaks Dutch and she helped me

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Speaker 1: out with the pronunciation. Some of the names involved ironic

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Speaker 1: that you don't know how to say. Her name actually

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Speaker 1: spelled Channa, but she actually she actually spelled it out

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Speaker 1: fanatically for men. So Shanna unless it's Shanna, but it

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Speaker 1: might be Shanna, so Shanna Shanna. Yeah, let me know

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Speaker 1: if I succeeded. I'm almost certainly going to mangle these

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Speaker 1: word these names anyway, but at least no, I won't

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Speaker 1: mangle them quite as bad as I would have. Yeah, fantastically. Yeah. Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to Anne Frank. Um, I'll just give you a

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Speaker 1: brief overview of her story. And this was actually helpful

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Speaker 1: for me. I know, most school aged children, at least

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Speaker 1: in America presumably most other places read Diary of a

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Speaker 1: Young Girl by Anne Frank. I did not. I was

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Speaker 1: never assigned it, so I had not actually ever really read,

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Speaker 1: you know, in depth. You kind of just vaguely understand

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Speaker 1: that Anne Frank is a person who existed and happened,

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Speaker 1: and she wrote some stuff about those bad things, and

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Speaker 1: also also some stuff that people think is really offensive

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Speaker 1: and pornographic. But I don't know. That's all I ever knew.

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Speaker 1: So this is really help No, this was I same thing.

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Speaker 1: I I had a complete and total incorrect perception of

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Speaker 1: the space that these people lived in, and and so

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Speaker 1: reading it and then getting to see some of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: it really it makes this the story makes more sense.

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Speaker 1: I also didn't realize there was it was two years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought, I don't know why I just kind of

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Speaker 1: assumed it was a couple of months. They were there

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Speaker 1: for two years and a month. Yeah. Actually the Austrian

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Speaker 1: police officer who finally rated the place and who and

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Speaker 1: then arrested them and took them away, couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: That's what Yeah, he said. Yeah, Otto Frank said, he

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Speaker 1: is the policeman. The policeman just couldn't believe that they

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Speaker 1: had been there that long. Yeah. But anyway, so let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the story. I was talking about the story. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And Frank was born in nine in Frankfurt, Germany. So

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Speaker 1: yes she was German, not not Dutch. But she was

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Speaker 1: born to Ottawa and Edith Frank. She also had an

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Speaker 1: older sister named Margot, about three years older than her.

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Speaker 1: And in nineteen thirty three a couple of things happened

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Speaker 1: that kind of prompted the family to move to Amsterdam.

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Speaker 1: One is that Otto got an offer to help start

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Speaker 1: a company there and to the National Socialist German Workers

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Speaker 1: Party came to power. It was along you know, I

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Speaker 1: was reading about this just today, the whole convoluted process

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Speaker 1: of Hitler getting appointed chancellor and then consolidating power, all

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Speaker 1: the manipulations scheming that went on and it's way too

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Speaker 1: complicated to go over. But he he did a masterful

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Speaker 1: job of pretty much taking over the entire German government.

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Speaker 1: And it took a little Oh yeah, it took a

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Speaker 1: lot of scheming and it took and it took time

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Speaker 1: and years. Yeah, it took. Yeah, it took a while.

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Speaker 1: But finally he was in charge of everything and that

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Speaker 1: turned out well yeah, not really yeah yeah yeah. So

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Speaker 1: uh so Otto, Frankie and his wife saw the writing

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Speaker 1: on the wall and decided it might be time to

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Speaker 1: beat Fete to Amsterdam. Smart choice. Yeah. So Otto worked

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Speaker 1: in Amsterdam at a Pecto works in a building at

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Speaker 1: two sixty Print, Amsterdam. Uh In night, he founded a

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Speaker 1: second company called Pecticon, which was housed in the same building.

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Speaker 1: And he was a bit of an entrepreneur. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: well both companies are his. And it was something to

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Speaker 1: do with gelatine. Yeah, pecton. Pecton is a is a

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Speaker 1: derived from fruit and it's kind of jello in a sense.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting. I never really what you used to

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Speaker 1: make jams and jelly. Yeah, that's it, thank you, which

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Speaker 1: I understand would be high. It was highly important, but

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Speaker 1: I never really thought about the fact that it was

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Speaker 1: derived that way. So it's really interesting. You had to

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Speaker 1: know what he was kind very intelligent guy to be

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Speaker 1: able to manage that. Yea, And that seems like it

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Speaker 1: would be a high commodity at that time as well

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Speaker 1: of canning and preserving happening at that point, refrigeration was

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Speaker 1: not so good well as you kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to be living in the back of

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Speaker 1: a house for two years, you know, yeah, two years

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Speaker 1: in a month half and that. So things were going

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Speaker 1: pretty well for the for the Franks. But in nineteen forty, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the Germans invaded the Netherlands and immediately, of course began

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Speaker 1: persecuting Dutch Jews. Uh Anna Margot were forced to change

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Speaker 1: schools because there were new rules mandating segregations, so that

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Speaker 1: meant they could only go to a Jewish school as

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Speaker 1: long as the Jewish school existed. It does It seems

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Speaker 1: like it was a much slower process than I also thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just kind of assumed the Nazis come

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Speaker 1: to Amsterdam and then all of the Jews get carted away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one day, the next. Yeah, it was a much slower

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Speaker 1: process of slowly segregating and then slowly carting away. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the carting away didn't didn't start right away, and it

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I don't think they'd really ramped up

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Speaker 1: the whole Holocaust to industrial proportions yet. Yeah. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: took a little time. So the girls had to go

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Speaker 1: to a new school. They had to add to change schools.

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Speaker 1: Jewish own businesses were being confiscated, so in y one,

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Speaker 1: Auto Frank liquidated his companies and transferred all of his

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Speaker 1: assets to young young Geese. I hope I pronounced that correctly,

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Speaker 1: shan up. Let me know. Um Geese was the husband

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Speaker 1: of Neep Geese, who was Auto Frank's secretary, and also

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Speaker 1: they were all friends too. In July two, Margot was

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Speaker 1: ordered to report for relocation to a work camp. Remember

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Speaker 1: Margot was was older than the Yeah, uh so the Franks.

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Speaker 1: The Franks had been planning already to go into hiding,

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Speaker 1: but they decided to move up the date a little

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Speaker 1: bit because of this. And on July six, who they

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Speaker 1: left their apartment with many, many layers of clothes on,

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Speaker 1: which must have been great on July Day. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: hope they left first thing in the morning. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the evening or something. But they were tons of

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Speaker 1: layers of clothes because they didn't want to be seen

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Speaker 1: carrying luggage. Yeah, they left behind their cat, which kind

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Speaker 1: of bothers me. Oh. I heard she that Anne gave

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Speaker 1: the cat to their neighbor. Yeah, and her marbles. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: She was very, very concerned about her marble. She didn't

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Speaker 1: want them to fall into the wrong hands. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so so that made me feel better when I heard

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Speaker 1: that the cat was okay in the marble. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the marbles too. Uh. They walked to Auto's business

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Speaker 1: where his two companies are, and and it was several

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Speaker 1: kilometers but they had to walk because Jews weren't allowed

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Speaker 1: to take public transportation. Cool. I such a weird rule,

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Speaker 1: but okay, yeah, I know. Well it's very similar to

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Speaker 1: segregation that happened in America, and it's still a weird

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Speaker 1: rule to me on that front. Yeah, okay, that's weird whatever.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why, but okay, yeah, I know. Back

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Speaker 1: to the business to building is one of those really tall,

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Speaker 1: skinny Amsterdam buildings. I'm sure everybody's seen pictures of its

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Speaker 1: um like four stories tall. Yeah, exactly. It's it was

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Speaker 1: actually a building that fronted on the street in the canal,

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Speaker 1: and then behind it there was a second building called

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Speaker 1: the annex, and they were connected together. The ground level

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Speaker 1: was basically unfinished warehouse space for the business. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: extending underneath the back building too. Yeah, and so the

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Speaker 1: ground level was basically unfinished. The upper levels of the

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Speaker 1: street side building were used as offices, and then there

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Speaker 1: was a connecting doorway to the rear building on the

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Speaker 1: second level, which and this this part of this space

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Speaker 1: is known as the annex. So second from the second

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Speaker 1: floor up to the attic that was the annex and

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Speaker 1: had previously been used as a laboratory for product development,

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Speaker 1: but during the war there was not much product development

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Speaker 1: going on, so Otto Frank found another use for it.

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Speaker 1: They moved into that space and then they put a

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Speaker 1: bookcase across the doorway to conceal it. And that's how

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Speaker 1: they kept hidden for months, literally the spy movie door. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there was like a bathroom and stuff in there, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was, thank thank god, although they couldn't flush the

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Speaker 1: toilet during the day because there were people working down

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Speaker 1: below in the warehouse. Yeah yeah, well yeah, at least yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you just learned to time your stuff, I guess, yeah, probably, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they had to be really quiet for those two

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Speaker 1: years and one month. Yeah, And there are pictures of

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Speaker 1: this online, right, Yeah, there's a there's on the Wikipedia page.

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Speaker 1: There's a really nice there's a picture of this from

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Speaker 1: the and Frank Museum, And somebody built a model of

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Speaker 1: the buildings and everything, and and there's a picture I

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Speaker 1: was kind of a cutaway model. And then all these

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Speaker 1: spaces are labeled and stuff, so you can get a

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Speaker 1: really great idea of the space that they were living. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which I think that it was. It was helpful to

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Speaker 1: me to be able to see it. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Actually I was surprised because I had Again, because I

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Speaker 1: hadn't really read the diary or anything like that. I

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Speaker 1: was always under the oppression that they were living in

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Speaker 1: a much tinier space. And what they lived in it

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Speaker 1: was basically a house, like a two story house, and

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Speaker 1: they had yeah, not huge, not a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: space but for the four of them. But it wasn't

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Speaker 1: underground railroad kind of under the floorboards. Now, not like that,

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Speaker 1: and not not like like glorious bastards the Jews were

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Speaker 1: hiding under the floorboards. Yeah, although I'm sure there were

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Speaker 1: some that were there, probably were. Yeah, anyway, that would

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Speaker 1: have been a not a bad space for the frank family.

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Speaker 1: But about a week later, Hermand van Pel's, which was

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Speaker 1: one of his employees, showed up with this family. So

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Speaker 1: that's him and his wife and his son. And then

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Speaker 1: several months later another friend showed up, Fritz Feffer. So

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Speaker 1: all in all, eight people living in that space for

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Speaker 1: over two years. Yeah, they weren't able to go outside

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Speaker 1: and get fresh air and a little sunshine and only

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Speaker 1: one bathroom between eight people. Yeah, so I'm thinking things

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Speaker 1: got a little tents and yeah, but it does be

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Speaker 1: getting killed, yeah or worse. Yeah, yeah, not like the

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Speaker 1: Nazis were, you know, the worst thing wasn't being killed

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Speaker 1: by them. Yeah, that's true. They did some hideous things, yes, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing that gets me about this, I guess is

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Speaker 1: like there had to have been blueprints or it seems

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Speaker 1: like prime hiding spot right that you would be able

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Speaker 1: to walk and say, oh, there's an extra house back there.

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Speaker 1: I don't but I guess I don't know how active

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Speaker 1: searches were or anything like that. Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was it was if you're working in

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Speaker 1: the building, it would be kind of obvious because the

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Speaker 1: offices only extend back so far, and get the warehouse

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Speaker 1: below extends back a lot further. But you know, the

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Speaker 1: guys that worked in the warehouse maybe didn't get up

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Speaker 1: to the opposite all that much. Probably not to the

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Speaker 1: back office, or the sense of space is different. Keep

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Speaker 1: in mind that it wasn't as if it's just a

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Speaker 1: big empty space. It's a warehouse space on the bottom,

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Speaker 1: it's got stuff stacked up, an office space. It's got walls,

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Speaker 1: it's got people and deaths, So there's things that can

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Speaker 1: sort of distort your sense of proportion. Yeah. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've ever been in an office where you

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Speaker 1: feel like this place just goes on and on and on,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly it feels like you're in an area

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Speaker 1: that's really small and every Monday through friends and there.

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Speaker 1: It's just simply because of the way that it's arranged

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Speaker 1: and what's in it, And to a degree, I think

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Speaker 1: that's what worked in the Frank's benefit. It seems also

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Speaker 1: likely that on the off chance that a worker does

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Speaker 1: come up and say it seems like there should be

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Speaker 1: more back there, you can say, oh, there was lab

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Speaker 1: space back there, but we closed it off. They want

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Speaker 1: to be wasting money on heat, you know and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, there's there's ways around, or just say

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Speaker 1: shut up and take your paycheck and go. Just be

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Speaker 1: happy you have the job. They say something like they said,

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Speaker 1: we don't know anything about any Jews, no one there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't have people hidden in there anyway. So our

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Speaker 1: our eight people are called the hiders, and there were

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Speaker 1: six people called the helpers who who knew about them,

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Speaker 1: and four of them worked there, and then there were

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Speaker 1: two others. So there are helpers were Victor Kugler, meet

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Speaker 1: Peace and I'm already mangling these Bet bush Kyl, Johannes Klayman,

258
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Speaker 1: Yankee Johannes Vush Kyle who was Bebe's father, and young

259
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Speaker 1: young Kee was Meske's husband. Uh, they were the helpers

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Speaker 1: and they did stuff like well, first off, toy kept

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Speaker 1: their mouth shut about the whole thing I was important

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Speaker 1: to do, and they did. They would would do other

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Speaker 1: stuff too, like like jan would go out and find

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Speaker 1: a way to get illegal way to get rationing cards

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Speaker 1: because they had to get food for these people, right,

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Speaker 1: so he had he procured rationing cards and they all

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Speaker 1: went out and got supplies for them. But most especially

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Speaker 1: Meep did. She did a lot of shopping for those

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Speaker 1: two years, and she was going out because she had

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Speaker 1: to be a little profile about it. She had to

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Speaker 1: go a couple of times, probably several times a day,

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Speaker 1: and she could only see what her rule was to

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Speaker 1: go to go to several different stores and at one

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Speaker 1: by by a single bag of groceries and nothing more

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Speaker 1: unless you could hide something under a coat and then

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Speaker 1: bring it back and then go to another store. So

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Speaker 1: she I mean, these people worked hard. One who lived

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Speaker 1: to be a hundred Yeah, she died in two Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember what website it was. I was reading

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Speaker 1: some story I think it was on the Guardian or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and I was reading it and they

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Speaker 1: had a picture of her in a hundred years old,

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Speaker 1: and then they had a picture of her from I

284
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Speaker 1: think nineteen forty or nineteen forty two, and Otto Frank

285
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 1: was in the picture. But it was so weird. Is

286
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Speaker 1: you see somebody and you're trying to figure out what

287
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 1: they looked like when they were younger. Except the photo

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00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: was captioned incorrectly and it said so and so bottom

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00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 1: center left, and so and so bottom center left, like

290
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Speaker 1: two people, so I kept look at I was so

291
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 1: confused until I finally figured out which one it was,

292
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Speaker 1: because obviously she looked like her. But it was really

293
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: it was really interesting that she managed to She was

294
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Speaker 1: the last one of all of these people. Yeah, that

295
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: the last survivor of the entire group. She must have

296
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Speaker 1: been eating a lot of pine cones. Is that what

297
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Speaker 1: it is? I think, Grandma. Some of the other things

298
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Speaker 1: that they did, they would keep them up to date

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Speaker 1: on what's going on outside. I assume they brought in

300
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: newspapers and books for them to read, bet order correspondence,

301
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: courses and subjects like Latin and shorthands to keep them occupied.

302
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Speaker 1: And the girls were taking those, yeah, and so doing

303
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Speaker 1: really well. Yeah, Margo, Margot, Margo. She didn't she get

304
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: perfect scores on her shorthand test or something, Yeah, something

305
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, so they were doing really well. Well. Yeah,

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00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: that's that's a good idea. If you're sitting there, religant

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Speaker 1: group of people, I think, oh yeah, smart, smart people.

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Speaker 1: And you know that the girls obviously weren't able to

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Speaker 1: go to school, so they want to do something for

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Speaker 1: it to heal them. So's not too far behind when

311
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Speaker 1: the war is over. But as I said, to keep

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Speaker 1: the factory workers, the guys down to the basement in

313
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Speaker 1: the dark, they had to be very quiet during the

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Speaker 1: daylight hours, and they couldn't plush the toilet during work hours.

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Speaker 1: They also had to be careful at night because they

316
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 1: couldn't really have lights on and they couldn't have the

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00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,719
Speaker 1: curtains open. Yeah, because there's there's other buildings and facing it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah this yeah, this is uh, this is this isn't

319
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Speaker 1: a block of buildings. And I don't know if you

320
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Speaker 1: lift the aerials of it. I'm sure you guys have. Yeah,

321
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Speaker 1: And so there's like almost like a courtyard which is

322
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Speaker 1: all the backyards of these buildings, which was kind of

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Speaker 1: kind of an open space, and so people across the

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00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: way it could look in the windows. So you had

325
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Speaker 1: to keep those curtains shut. Yeah. One supposes that you

326
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Speaker 1: would simultaneously not wear your shoes and not be on

327
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Speaker 1: the lowest most level. That would do a lot of

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Speaker 1: the During the day, you would be able to walk

329
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Speaker 1: around a little more freely. But I think you could

330
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Speaker 1: talk in low voices. Well, yeah, because they're they're the

331
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Speaker 1: lowest floor of their living space. There. Hiding space was

332
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 1: actually the second floor. Yeah. But also it looked like

333
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: from the model it didn't share actually share, It wasn't

334
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 1: the same level. There was a space of insulation or

335
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,439
Speaker 1: something in between the warehouse and the floor. That's what

336
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 1: it looked like to me. But it would still be

337
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's an old building. It's not going to be. No,

338
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: it's not quiet now, not at all that. Yeah, I'm

339
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 1: sure they were able to move around, they just couldn't

340
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 1: be shouting or playing loud music or anything like that.

341
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,119
Speaker 1: And then pictionary, yeah, and then and on the weekends

342
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes Otto would allow allow and to go down

343
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 1: and sit in his office at his desk, his old

344
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 1: office from when he was when he was worked there.

345
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Speaker 1: And so I'm sure that was a nice change. I

346
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: mean it's not much, but I mean, you know, but

347
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: also a little privacy, a little privacy. So she would

348
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 1: work at her diary and stuff. She was We didn't

349
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,119
Speaker 1: say this, really, we didn't do the math for people.

350
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,719
Speaker 1: She was thirteen when they went into hiding, so she

351
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: was she was in hiding from thirteen to fIF teen.

352
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:09,879
Speaker 1: That's a bad time, yeah, be necessarily around people of

353
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 1: the time. Good point. And she was working at a

354
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,199
Speaker 1: diary and she was very private about her diary, and

355
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 1: she was always not wanting anybody looking over her shoulder

356
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 1: or anything. And so yeah, for her, that was probably

357
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 1: really nice to sit in Dad's office and work in

358
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 1: the diary and just be away from everybody else. Yeah.

359
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: I have a question about the diary because this is

360
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: I obviously, as we said, didn't read it, but when

361
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 1: I was reading stuff about it, it sounded like she

362
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:44,400
Speaker 1: edited the contents of her diary continually so that when

363
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: the diary when she was taken away, the diary was

364
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: in the voice of fifteen year old and Frank, even

365
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,959
Speaker 1: though it had initially in the beginning been written by

366
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: thirteen year old and Frank, which is just it's so

367
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: it's execute perspective in a way, do you see. I

368
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: think the sense I had was it wasn't so much.

369
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it wasn't go back into lead because

370
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: it was handwritten, presumably in penn. The impression I had

371
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: it was more cross out and write in the margin,

372
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: or just write notes in the margin. I know there

373
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: was one bit where it said she had written something

374
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: about how much she hated her mother and she wasn't

375
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: a mother of hers, and then she had gone back

376
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 1: and crossed out and said like, and what are you saying?

377
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 1: What are you doing? That's so dumb? I know that

378
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: for me, you know, when I was a teenage girl,

379
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: I kind of journal off and on, and I would

380
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: do things like that. I would go back and read

381
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: and write little notes to myself in the margin and

382
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 1: things like that. That was kind of the impression that

383
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: I had. But again, I also haven't read it, so

384
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, it

385
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 1: just makes me think there's a book out there that

386
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: I read years and years ago, Flowers for Algernon. I

387
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 1: think it's how you pronouncing, and it's written, you know,

388
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 1: in this voice that evolves in maturity and then devolves again.

389
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: And to me, it's almost as if I remember there

390
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: was a passage in the book where it said I've

391
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: been told not to go back and fix my writings

392
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 1: in the beginning. And that's just one of those things

393
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 1: that popped into my head when I was reading that

394
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: about and well, she wanted to be a journalist, she decided.

395
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 1: Everything I've read about it is that she recognized. And

396
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: then you know, literary critics afterwards recognized that her writing

397
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: style improved infinitely. She was devoting herself, you know, that's

398
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 1: all she was doing when she was and so I

399
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: think she would probably you can't you go back and

400
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 1: you read that stuff if it's there, if it's one

401
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: of the only things that you have, you're gonna keep

402
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: reading it and you'll get annoyed. And thank god, it's

403
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 1: so childish. And she wasn't writing it as a book,

404
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,719
Speaker 1: you know, she was writing it as a diary for herself,

405
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: so writing notes back in the margin and editing and

406
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 1: saying what are you doing? Or that sounded dumb? I

407
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 1: can phrase it about her way. That's true because when

408
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: we are all used to it as a book, yeah,

409
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: which it wasn't intended to be. No, it wasn't. It

410
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: was a girl's diary. I almost got the impression that

411
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: she had her diary, which was a book that she

412
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: wrote in what she made corrections in the stuff, but

413
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 1: then she started a second, parallel one that kind of

414
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: like copied it over and changed changed some of the names,

415
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: like it's like it like. It almost appears as though

416
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: she didn't start writing the diary with the intention of

417
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: publishing it, but that perhaps she decided she thought to

418
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: herself that maybe this could be published, and so she started.

419
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: I hadn't you saying she had a second book or

420
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: she was starting over somewhere else in that I have

421
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,479
Speaker 1: heard rumors to that effect that she started the second

422
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: one that was loose blue leaf papers. Yeah, I don't know.

423
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: That's possible. I don't know. Maybe because I do remember

424
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: hearing about Ann's papers being scattered on the floor. Yeah. Yeah,

425
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: but the diary was a bound book. Yeah, so so

426
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: it was it was an autograph book, right, Yes, it

427
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: was an autograph and white and red checked. Uh. Well,

428
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 1: that good detail. I didn't even know that, dude. No,

429
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: that's not all we do. Very clear, we go further

430
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: than the Wikipedia, Yes we do. Yeah. And Andy, by

431
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: the way, if you want to investigate this mystery, there

432
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: are a lot of websites out there. Oh my god. Anyway,

433
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. We kind of was straightway off path here. Uh,

434
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: to finish off the story before we plunge into the

435
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: suspects here. Um they were. The Hider stayed hit for

436
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: twenty four or twenty five months until August fourth, nineteen four,

437
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: when the Germans showed up and arrested arrested them and

438
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: the rest of course is history. They were all sent

439
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: to Auschwitz, where they mostly survived, but then in late

440
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: nineteen Margot and Anne Frank were transferred to bergen Belson.

441
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: Their mother, Edith stayed behind and starved to death in Auschwitz,

442
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: and then in early nine there was a typhus epidemic

443
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: in the bergen Belsen camp, and Margot and both died.

444
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Edith died of starvation because Anne and Margot had scabies

445
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: and they weren't getting fed in their hospital, and so

446
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,239
Speaker 1: she was giving all her rations to them. They were

447
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: shipped off, and then she subsequently starved because she there

448
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: was no recovering from the amount of Yeah, she just

449
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: gone too long. And I am I wrong in remembering that,

450
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: And and Margot, We're gonna get sent somewhere other than

451
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: the camp that they went to. But because they were

452
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: held back and they might yeah, okay, yeah, but obviously

453
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: if you can't figure out scabies means it was a

454
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: filthy environment. I mean, I think most everybody knows the

455
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: conditions that the camps were in the place they were

456
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: put when they had scabies, had no electricity, and it

457
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: was infested with rats. You know, that's they said, oh,

458
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: you have scabies. Okay, go go in this building to recover,

459
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: and it was just rat and worst darkness. Yeah, fun times. Yeah,

460
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: this is the bad time in history. Oh yeah, this

461
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: kind of stuff is going to continue to happen, though,

462
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: bravely predict that it'll happen again. But there's a little

463
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: controversy over her date of deaths. I'm say mid February

464
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: the say and of March, but the most recent scholarship

465
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: on the subject says she died about mid February, yeah,

466
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: which I honestly prefer. Yeah, I'd rather she died earlier,

467
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't so heartbreakingly close to the liberation

468
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: in what was an April at the end of March.

469
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: That's just hard. That's just two weeks away, I know,

470
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: really bad. So yeah, so only Otto Frank survived out

471
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: of all eight people. Yeah, that's so lucky for him.

472
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: But he didn't have a lot to come home too.

473
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: Apparently when he came home he was very skinny. Yeah. Bad.

474
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: He moved in with with I don't think any of

475
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: in concentration, was that, no, except for the guards. Yeah,

476
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: So he returned to Amsterdam and and moved in with

477
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: with Meep and young Geese and and they're I'm not

478
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: sure exactly when he got got back to Amsterdam, but

479
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: he was awaiting word of of Margot and Anne, and

480
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: he finally got word in July n that they were dead.

481
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: So apparently that was kind of a blow. He knew

482
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: pretty early that was dead, right, I think so, yeah,

483
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 1: And I think it was right around that time that

484
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: that me pulled out the diary and the papers and

485
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: gave them to him, and also let me talk about

486
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: the helpers just a little bit. Obviously, the four people

487
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: there were taken into custody. Victor Coogler and you know,

488
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: Johannes Claiming were arrested and sent up to prison camp.

489
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: And Googler was in the work camps almost until the

490
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: end of the war. But he was being he was

491
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: being marched like he had about six d other guys

492
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: were being fourth marched and they were eventually supposedly going

493
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: to go to Germany, but apparently there was some bombing

494
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: going on in the immediate area. Everybody was taking cover.

495
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: There was confusion. He managed to get away and so

496
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: he escaped, so good for him. And then Claiman was

497
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: released about six or seven weeks after he was arrested

498
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: because he had had health problems, and so she's weird

499
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: when we've just talked about the terrible health conditions in

500
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: the places that these people were put. Well, he wasn't Jewish. Yeah,

501
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: he wasn't Jewish, and so they weren't they weren't his heart. Yeah,

502
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: they were sympathetic, yeah, but yeah. Uh. And then also,

503
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: of course Meep and Beth were the two other ones.

504
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: They're both women, of course, and they were they were

505
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: interrogating release. And Meep said later that she kind of

506
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: lucky break because the policeman the guy talked about before

507
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: h his name was Carl Silberbauer, and he turns out

508
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: he was from Vienna, and he was the guy who

509
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 1: was interrogating her. Turns out Meep was also from Vienna.

510
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: Then she just jumped up and smile and said, so

511
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: I hear from your exit her from Vienna me too,

512
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: you know. And so he stopped a little bit and

513
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: cut her a break and let her go. It seems

514
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: also would have been as the wife of somebody, there's

515
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: some plausible deniability there. It seems easier to say my

516
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: husband made me do it. Sensibilities of absolutely currently less so,

517
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: but more than when you say, my husband may do

518
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: what I didn't want to do it, but he said

519
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: he beat me. And I'm from Vienna and all my

520
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: the were childhood friends, and it's a little there's a

521
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: little more plausible than the ability there. Oh yeah, yeah.

522
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: So anyway, so they went back to the annex the

523
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: next day and gathered up some of the loose stuff

524
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: like that, ants papers and the diary, and me kept

525
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: those in a drawer. They read, they read a diary,

526
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: and they decided it was pornographic and they burned it. No,

527
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: but they did say that if if they had read it,

528
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: she didn't, she say, she said, if I had read it,

529
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: I would have burned it. She said that, yeah, she

530
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: didn't read it. She respected ants privacy. She was expecting

531
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: to actually and to survive because they all knew the

532
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: war was close to end. The end. She was expecting

533
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: to see Anne again, and so she planned to give

534
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: it back to her. But she did say that apparently,

535
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: turns out it had the names of all the helpers,

536
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: not just the four in the building, but the other two.

537
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: And it had the names of some of their black

538
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: market suppliers in it. And so that's why she said

539
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,239
Speaker 1: she would have burned it. And so yeah, because if

540
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: it had gotten if the Germans have got ahold of it,

541
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the whole liability goes away. Yeah. Yeah, I

542
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: seen if somebody says, oh, she's been going all these

543
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: different places, it's great, she totally knows what's going on,

544
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: then you're you're just kind of screwed. Yeah. So yeah,

545
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: I guess lucky for us, me didn't read the diary,

546
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: and so it survived, um in nineteen four. As I mentioned,

547
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: there have been numerous investigations, Uh, sixty eight, six, two

548
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: thousand and three. Didn't the first investigation get launched because

549
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: didn't Auto get the book put out in forty seven? Yeah,

550
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: it came. Yeah, he got it published the first time

551
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: in Is that correct? Yes, it was, yeah, And so

552
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: that's that's why I got I go. Always got the

553
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: feeling that the investigation in forty eight was prompted because

554
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: of the instant popularity of the book. Yeah, I think so, yeah,

555
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: and uhe And by the way, the one that was

556
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: published in forty it was edited by Otto Frank because

557
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: it had a few salicious bits in it, and so

558
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: a little bit kissed a boy, right, like there's there's

559
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: she talks about touching her genitals and stuff like, I

560
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: get really offended. This is when my feminism well, I

561
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: mean I think, yeah, this is when my kind of

562
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: feminist flag flies. I get really really upset when people

563
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: talk about how offensive and pornographic it is, because like,

564
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: it's totally fine to talk about dudes masturbating all the time,

565
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: but as soon as a fifteen year old girl is like,

566
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm exploring my body a little bit, people are like, no, pornographic.

567
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: That's awful. My cannot read it. It's awful, bannit no,

568
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: But you know, just like I just cared about it,

569
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: about it. But the thing about it is Frank was

570
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: her father, and probably he wanted to privacy a little bit,

571
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: I understand at that point, but I was very private.

572
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: This has come up to that schools have been giving

573
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: their fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year old kids the unedited

574
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: version of Diary of Young Girl, and parents are outraged

575
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: because there's this little bit about Anne Frank discovering herself

576
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: as a woman, and it's listen, if as a parent,

577
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: I don't have the balls to talk to my children

578
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: about sex, then take my place, because you don't have balls,

579
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. If I don't tell them about it that

580
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: now they can learn about it from the internet. They do, yeah,

581
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: they do. But anyway, I'm sorry, but to get really

582
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: angry for anybody out there who didn't know. There's the

583
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: unabridged version of it, which has got all these these

584
00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: little details and totally pornographic guys like five pages longer. Yeah,

585
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: I don't think he cut I have no idea how much.

586
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is totally unrelated to our mystery.

587
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: But there are people who claim that Otto Frank wrote

588
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: the diary himself fake and there are people, Yeah, there

589
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: are people who claim that the whole thing was a

590
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: complete fake and a hoax, and there have been lawsuits

591
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: over this and all kinds of back and forth. Lots

592
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: of handwriting experts have confirmed it and wrote it, and yeah,

593
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: I mean so obviously she did. But there are still

594
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: people out there trying to claim that it's all just

595
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: a fake. Yeah, yeah, just fiction, like eleven was an

596
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: inside job. Well, let's be fair. Even if it is fiction,

597
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: still a very compelling, interesting story that's important for people

598
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: to read. Oh yeah, even though I'm not I'm probably

599
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 1: never going to read it myself. But now that I know,

600
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: I know that, I know the bare bones. Yeah, I

601
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: get that. I got the lesson there. You know. We

602
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't dump on each other. Yeah yeah, be kind to

603
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: each other, don't be Nazis. Yeah yeah, I don't gas

604
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: to Jews. Yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, normal stuff. Yeah,

605
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: the stuff to teach you with citizenship back in school normally. Yeah. Yeah.

606
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Well let's uh, let's talk a little bit about some

607
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: of the suspects that could have that could have thinked on.

608
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: So it's this basically our theory section. Then yeah, okay, okay,

609
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: these guys are in no particular order. Actually, our second

610
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: suspect was actually the popular suspect first in the sixty

611
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: three and then yeah, a little bit. Our first one

612
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: is Tonny Olers, who was a business associated with autos.

613
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: I think that I have to admit the relationship between

614
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: Auto Frank and Tonny Owlers. I'm Tandy is short for

615
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: anton or that's that's a nickname. But the relationship between

616
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: those two is a little bit of a mystery to me. Um,

617
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot of confusing, conflicting information out there. One

618
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: is that they were just business associates, or friends gone

619
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: south or enemies. I don't really do. Just the guy

620
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: who was trying to extort money from Auto Well supposedly

621
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: supposedly tried to extort a little money due to a

622
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: letter that one of his employees had written, and that

623
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: he was maybe kind of a braggerton. Yeah there was

624
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: always that too, he uh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and

625
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: a criminal. But anyway, apparently he did have a sort

626
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: of rival business, but he actually bought stuff from his

627
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: from Auto Frank's company, so he was maybe a bit

628
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: of a middleman. Yeah, I think so. But I read

629
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: in the Guardian from the UK that others did denounce

630
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: Jews and members of the Dutch underground to the Germans

631
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: during the war. So so so that's on mark in

632
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: his favor for being our snitch. And in two thousand two,

633
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: a writer named Caroline Lee published a biography of Auto

634
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: Frank and read after that she was contacted by Tony

635
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: Awler's son Anton, and Anton is sure that Tony was

636
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: a rat. So his son she's even saying, oh no,

637
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: my dad definitely did that. Actually, a number of stories

638
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: in the past months where this has been the case,

639
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: where he had a child after the factor has come

640
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: out and said my parent was a scumbag. On obviously

641
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: did it because that's I mean, that's what he's like.

642
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: Children resent their parents and maybe like not always bad

643
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: even if their parents are bad. Maybe maybe. Yeah, No,

644
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: it does seem like Anton was not nothing like his dad.

645
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: His dad was. His dad was a real piece of work,

646
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: very you know, a huge anti semi pro Nazi. I

647
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: think he was actually a member of the Dutch Nazi

648
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 1: Party somewhere. Yeah. Anton contactas writer Carol Anley and says

649
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: that he was he was the rat. And there are

650
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: there's evidence that Tanny really didn't like Otto Frank even

651
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: though they were associates, because Carol an Lee has got

652
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: some copies of some letters that were written by Tanny apparently,

653
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: so he didn't like add Also, there's there's one motive. Also,

654
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: Tonny's brother Kaz told a land Lee that Tony told

655
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: him at some point in the past that he was

656
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: the one who would rid it out the Frank family.

657
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: And also one of the guys who showed up at

658
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: the raid on the Annex in August fourth was a

659
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: friend of Tony's. Yeah, he was, he was actually he

660
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: had actually apparently moved in with them and moved into

661
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: the same building at least but just the day before.

662
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: And her book Lee's said that the reason that others

663
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: held off as long as he did before he dropped

664
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: his dime is that his company actually depended on Otto

665
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: Frank's company for supplies. But his company went bankrupt and

666
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: so at that's at that point it didn't really matter.

667
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: And there was also a bounty on Jews of forty

668
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: Guilder's head, and so there was a money motive there.

669
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: So Tony Olers told people he did it. He had

670
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: a motive to do it, which included money, anti Semitism,

671
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: and a personal dislike of Auto Frank. But on the

672
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: other hand, how did he find out there were people

673
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: living in the end? Yeah? I don't know how often

674
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: he went by that business that apparently there is there

675
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: evidence that he went by on an occasional basis, at

676
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: least to pick stuff up. But was he there long

677
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: enough to actually find a detector, you know, figure out

678
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: that there were people there? I don't think so well.

679
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I guess it's possible if he had business dealings with

680
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: Auto while the back annex was still a laboratory, it's

681
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: possible that eventually he kind of put two and two

682
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: together and said, there is an annex back there. No

683
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: one seen the Franks recently, and they conveniently aren't using

684
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: that space anymore. Well, yeah, but it's probably worth your

685
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: time to go check that out. It could have been.

686
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I still think that I'm not I'm not

687
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: really sure that there was any way that he could

688
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: have known, unless there's one way possibly could have figured

689
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: it out. But I just want to say against his

690
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: being the rat at the time he made his statements,

691
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: this is well after the fact. This is well after that,

692
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: after the die. Yeah, and it was and so it

693
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 1: was a huge, huge deal. It was all well known,

694
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: and that's when he started telling people that he was

695
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: the one that read him out. But he was a

696
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: well known liar, and he just probably wanted to, you know,

697
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: insert himself into the story. Even though that it makes

698
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: him kind of the bad guy. He probably didn't care

699
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: because he was a jerk. He possibly could have found

700
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: out from one or more of the employees that worked there. Yeah,

701
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: And maybe the employees figured it out and they were there.

702
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: They were the guys that were you know, much more

703
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: like and they they would be the ones to yeah, yeah,

704
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's certainly possible that they would have figured

705
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: it out, but you know, liked auto or didn't have

706
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: the guts to have that on their conscience or whatever.

707
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: They maybe didn't even know kind of vaguely thought, or

708
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: even you you know, go out at the bar and

709
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: you're like, that's the weirdest thing. Uh huh. Yeah, I

710
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: think it's haunted or something. Toilets flushing up by themselves. Yeah, yeah,

711
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: but I think most people are not about to wrap

712
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: people out and send him off to their desks. She

713
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: would hope not you would you kind of hope for

714
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: the good in people. But during this time, I kind

715
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: of I'm willing to that goes out the window for

716
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people because there's suddenly the fear and

717
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: self preservation. Yeah. And also and also, you know that

718
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: anti Semitism was pretty pretty rampant in Europe at the time.

719
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: It kind of still is in a way, but it's

720
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,959
Speaker 1: not as bad as it was, but it's still there.

721
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: Let's move on to our next suspect, Villain van Maaren.

722
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: That's a mouthful, I know. Villain van Maaren. Uh. He

723
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: was hired as a warehouse manager after the Franks and

724
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: company took up residence in the annex. Apparently the previous

725
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: manager become ill and left his job, So he wouldn't

726
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: have felt the affinity for Auto that Yeah, not really,

727
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: other employees would have. Yeah, probably not. It doesn't doesn't

728
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: make him a bad guy, but he didn't know. He

729
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: didn't know Auto and his family. But he was reportedly

730
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: really curious about the rooms at the back of the

731
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 1: building and asked a lot of strange questions, like one

732
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: time he asked to the guy named Otto Frank work

733
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: here at some point? Where where would he have gotten

734
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: that from? Well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe he got

735
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: it from Tommy Ollers or you know, it might it

736
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: might just be that he came across an old invoice

737
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: that was signed by Otto Frank too. I mean, who knows.

738
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: I think that that could have been the entire genesis

739
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: of the question. So it's not necessarily that suspicious. He

740
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: may have at one point, at one point or another,

741
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: heard some noises. People get careless, especially after two years. Well,

742
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: and if he's the manager, there are people who take

743
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: that position amazingly seriously, and everything that goes on in

744
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: that place needs to be under their supervision, and they

745
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: need to know, so he may have felt that he

746
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: had to investigate it all. Yeah, I know, and he

747
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: was he did suspect that, he did suspect that people

748
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: were entering the warehouse at night, and he left these

749
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: little tell tales around. Yeah, and I guess it's. Yeah,

750
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: at that point you think maybe he thought it was

751
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: people breaking in, might have thought that maybe that it

752
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: was or water was breaking in and they were going

753
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: to take inventory. And that point, if you're the foreman,

754
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: you're the one who gets screwed if stuff goes missing. Yeah,

755
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: I can't understand that, although at the same time, the

756
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 1: interesting thing is is that he was actually stealing stuff

757
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: from the warehouse himself. Yeah, well, I guess then you

758
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: then he's building a case, right, He's saying people are

759
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: breaking in, it's the weirdest thing, and things are going missing,

760
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: that that's entirely possible, and the blame doesn't fall on him. Yeah,

761
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't know if the if the

762
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: hiders ever, I know they came out into the offices occasionally,

763
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if they ever actually went down into

764
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: the warehouse. Probably over the courses of two years, at

765
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: some point or another, than you yeah. I mean, I

766
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, if I were hiding, were hiding up there,

767
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: I would I would leave it two in the morning

768
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: and just take a brief walk and come back. And

769
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: they might have even done that. I don't know. Be risky,

770
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: but you gotta you gotta do it. There is a

771
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: there are a few references to Van maren in and

772
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: Frank's diary, believe it or not. Apparently the hiders were

773
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: wary of him. They've been informed about him, and he's

774
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: questioning and all that stuff, and so he set traps

775
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: and stuff, not not so much traps as like he

776
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: would he would like leave things around that would easily

777
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: be knocked off if somebody walked by, like a piece

778
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: of paper on the edge of a piece of furniture

779
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So he was he really

780
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: seriously felt that somebody was getting in there, and so

781
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: I can see why that would be a cause for

782
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: concern for them. Yeah, and so super super snoopy. Yeah,

783
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: And so it really put the Franks and the hiders

784
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: and the helpers, I mean the hiders and the helpers

785
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: who put them much kind of a strange position because

786
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: this guy was because he was so inquisitive, he was

787
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: a threat. He should have they should have fired him.

788
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you fired the guy

789
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: and he's all embittered, he might go to the police

790
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: with what Yeah, I know that might have been the

791
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: thing to do. I know, but make him sit in

792
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: that bathroom that you can't and the diary would have

793
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: been and Frank girl assassin. Yeah, yeah, here's here's what

794
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: Frank said about him that he said, quote, we wouldn't

795
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: care what Mr Van Maren thinks of the situation or

796
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: thought of the situation, except that he's known to be

797
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: unreliable and to possess a high degree of curiosity. He's

798
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: not want to let himself be fobbed off with a

799
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: flimsy excuse. So he wasn't buying the oh we just

800
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: closed it off excuse, right, yeah, or the whole evidence

801
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: said the hiders were coming out and moving around in

802
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: the rest of the building after hours, and uh that

803
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: was the theft, of course. Uh. And a worker at

804
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: the warehouse, Lamberate Hardtog, testified that Van Maren told him

805
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: two weeks before the raid that Jews were hiding in

806
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: the building. Suspicious. Yeah, yeah, so it sounds like Van

807
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: Maren knew, but He was questioned in the and the

808
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties three investigations, and he admitted that he had

809
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: suspicions they knew. He knew something was up in the annex,

810
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: but he didn't he didn't tip off the Gestapo. He

811
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: said he really didn't like him though. No, he wasn't

812
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: pro Nazi at all. Uh yeah, And so you know,

813
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: maybe he needed the money. I don't know, but he

814
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: was apparently aware of Dutch resistance activity in his neighborhood

815
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: and and didn't tip anybody off about that stuff either.

816
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 1: So he wasn't pro Nazi or pro German or anything.

817
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to think errant word to the wrong person

818
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: at this time, you know, you yeah, if he's if

819
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: he's like thicking like Tanya talking to Tanya Allers and says, hey,

820
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: you know there's there's sinking stuff going on here, or

821
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: even talking to like a co worker out at the

822
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: bar that somebody happens to be at. You know that

823
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 1: you think you're safe, you think nobody's listening, and you say,

824
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: it's it's weird. It's curtains are getting left open, my

825
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: traps are getting they made the post slip sink ships

826
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: just saying the simplest thing, the right set of ears

827
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 1: puts it together and the whole thing falls apart. Yeah,

828
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,959
Speaker 1: so it's it's possible. I tend to think that he's

829
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: he's innocent, and meet Geese for her, I want me

830
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: say that, right, meet peace. That's better. Said in in

831
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: an interview that she didn't think Van Marin was the informant,

832
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: and I think Otto, I think actually Otto Frank said

833
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: so too. I don't know. I The thing I keep

834
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: struggling with is, you know, like Steve said, with the

835
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: segregation doesn't make sense to me. The fact that somebody

836
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: could in good conscience not feel awful about themselves in

837
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: telling people these people are someplace and you know they're

838
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: up to like almost certain death, that's insane to me.

839
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: Getting in that mindset is insane to me. And unless

840
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: you are kind of a liar, braggart or brown noser

841
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: or pro Nazi, I can't imagine anybody who wasn't avidly

842
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: pro Nazi deliberately turning people in. No. I'm like, well,

843
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're a sociopath and you're and you're

844
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: not you don't really care one way together about the Nazis,

845
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: but you you're a sociopath and it's forty guilders ahead,

846
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: so heyking out why not. But the thing is, Joe

847
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: and I talked about this story a couple of days go,

848
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: and the thing that I was bringing up is because

849
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: he was basically saying the same thing, and I was

850
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that, well, there's these people that

851
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: we like, you know, the collaborators, people hate, the collaborators

852
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: who helped the Nazis do what they did but didn't

853
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: necessarily support them. A lot of those people did what

854
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: they did out of fear and just this thought that

855
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: this is my only way to survive. These people are

856
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: gonna win, and I can either go ahead and die

857
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: or I can survive. And so it could be one

858
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: of those situations where somebody felt required to say something.

859
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: I don't have a choice here. If I don't say

860
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 1: something and they find out, I know, they're gonna kill

861
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: both of us. Yeah, I know there was. There was.

862
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: There was a lot of collaboration going on World War two. Absolutely,

863
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: like the famous French Resistance. Uh you know, turns out

864
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: everybody was in the French resistance, but not really, not

865
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: not at all. Yeah, same with the resistance in with

866
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: the Dutch. But luckily there were still plenty of people

867
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: like our six helpers for example. Yeah, we're some good

868
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: people around. Oh yeah, there were plenty of good people,

869
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: but there were plenty of rats. Okay. Our next suspect,

870
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: Martins Slieger's who was the night watchman at the business.

871
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: Although he wasn't actually on premises. He uh, he was

872
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: like the active one or he Yeah, he was responsible

873
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: for a number of properties. So he bicycled around the canals,

874
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, just checking on various properties. And uh, he

875
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: noticed in April nine the building had been burg old.

876
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: Apparently the door was open or something. So he called

877
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: in a policeman and then went through the building looking

878
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: for nearby wells. Didn't find any, and got as far

879
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: as as the bookcase, but didn't discover the n X.

880
00:47:55,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: I heard they the policeman settled that I don't know

881
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: what exactly that was about. I mean, obviously it didn't

882
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: fill it with it enough to move it, move it

883
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: out aside and see that there was a door behind it.

884
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: I get the impression that the bookcase wasn't flush against

885
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: the wall. If you look at the pictures of it

886
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: from the Ann Frank House and I've seen pictures of

887
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: it open, and unfortunately, the pictures I've seen where it's closed,

888
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: they're straight on. But I get the impression that there

889
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: was a bit of a recess between the door and

890
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: the bookcase itself, and somebody may have figured it out. Yeah,

891
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: i'ment sure that the pictures you were looking at were

892
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: all recreations, because I don't think there's any pictures of

893
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: the original one. Oh okay, see, and these are these

894
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: are things that we're from the Inn Frank House, So

895
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that they may very well. Oh okay, see,

896
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: that's great to know, because I presumed, like an idiot,

897
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: that the an Frank House would have actual pictures kind

898
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: of things like that sort of thing you wouldn't take

899
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: pictures of if you had this bookcase. They was covering

900
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: something you wouldn't be like, and this is our bookcase.

901
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: It's not suspicious at all, but we have pictures of it. Anyway,

902
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: years you know, after Otto got home, somehow I think

903
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: they destroyed it. Okay, that was my impression him in

904
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: that it was just like that bookcase was not going

905
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: back up. Okay, Okay, they never mind. I why, I

906
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: don't know why. I don't know what the fiddling with it.

907
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what that entails. It's kind of vague. Yeah,

908
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: and going this bookcase sucks. None of the books come

909
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: off of it for some reason. I think I read

910
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: something that said that they had fiddled with it and

911
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: moved it a bit, but everyone was really confident that

912
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: the police officers hadn't reported them. But that I'm I

913
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: don't know, I want. I want to believe that, like

914
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: everybody knew that the Franks were back there, and everybody said,

915
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: but let's keep them back there. That in my best

916
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: of the stories, Well, yeah, I think that they were

917
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: probably after after more than two years. There's probably a

918
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: lot of people suspected something. Oh, I'm sure a lot,

919
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: and everybody but one person kept their mouth shut. Yeah,

920
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: And I can't I really can't imagine a situation in

921
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: which somebody would say, oh, yeah, Otto used to own

922
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: that building, and there's that annex they don't use back

923
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: there anymore, and we haven't been the Franks in two years,

924
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: but stores of Jews, Yeah, not suspicious at all. I

925
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: can't imagine a single person who knew that situation not

926
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: thinking they were back there. But I hopefully everybody just

927
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: kept their mouth shut. I think I think a lot

928
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 1: of people did. Um. And actually I forgot to mention

929
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: that when they left their apartment, they sort of they

930
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: left behind some papers and things like that that kind

931
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: of just kind of give people the impression that they

932
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: had gone to Switzerland. I heard they left it in

933
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: disarray as well. They let it kind of looked like

934
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: they had just left, really left in a hurry, and

935
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: they so that whenever the house was searched, Yeah, it

936
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: looked like people I go, oh, they went Switzerland. Okay,

937
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: you know. So uh, anyway, let's go back to our

938
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 1: our night watchman, Martin Slieger's. Yeah, there's really nothing against

939
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: him to speak of. I mean, he was just doing

940
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: his job. He called the police and they went through

941
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: the place. And so I would say that even though

942
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: he's been named as a suspect by a few places,

943
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: he's pretty weak. Pretty weak suspect. Yeah, you name it

944
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: is a suspect because he might have maybe known about

945
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: it maybe. Alright, alright, Okay, our next suspect, Nellie bush

946
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: kW Nellie Blushka was the sister of bet Bush kil

947
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: Uh and just this year, a book like April two,

948
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: a book by by be bush Kyl's son and a

949
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: Flemish journalist claimed that bebs sister, Nellie blush Kaw might

950
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: have been the rat there. The basis of this claim

951
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: is that she was in the a Nazi collaborator for

952
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: four years, and they based this mostly on testimony from

953
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: Beb's other sister, Diny, You don't do you think, Dinny Dinny,

954
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: and also a guy who was Beyonce at that time,

955
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 1: Burtis Yeah, Burdas, Yeah, Burtas. She reportedly, this is Nellie

956
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 1: once again, the sister of Beb. Reportedly she was said

957
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: to beb and Johannes, Well, Skyle, go then go to

958
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: your Jews. Even though they hadn't told her. Somehow she

959
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: seemed to have found out about it so well, she

960
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: had a suspicion of some kind. It seems that was

961
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: the one who's doing all of the grocery shopping, right, Yeah, okay,

962
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: never mind. I was gonna say, if somebody's coming home

963
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: with a bunch of groceries from a bunch of places

964
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: and then you're not eating any of them and they're

965
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: just appearing anyways, evidence is pretty stark. But if it

966
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: wasn't that then? Well I was gonna say, though, is

967
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: that in the defense of this Nellie for Nellie? Right? Yeah,

968
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing that correctly. I don't know pronouncing it okay,

969
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: because I'm the great mispronouncer anger of the Internet. Just

970
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: making sure probably this isn't so it's probably a new Week,

971
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: I know. The point is, My point is that they

972
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 1: may have been in private, outspoken critics of the Nazi

973
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 1: rhetoric and against Jews. They may have said, this is

974
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 1: so dumb, why are we doing this and being poed

975
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: at him. Just fine, go do that, go with me,

976
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: with your your people that you want to save. It

977
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: could have it's you know, parents, you held this, fine,

978
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: go to the rainforest and save the squirrels or whatever

979
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, I mean it could

980
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: have been. It could have been just saying hey, it's

981
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: innocuous at that point. Yeah, exactly. And so again that

982
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: the case against Nellie is pretty pretty thin. Again, the

983
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: helpers had good reason to keep their mouth shut about this,

984
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: big time good reasons. Yeah. They actually the Helpers got

985
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: off roll easy compared to what could have happened to them. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah.

986
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: And so because I think it wasn't it. I could

987
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: be making this up, but I'm pretty sure that helpers

988
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: were treated as soon as you were a Jew sympathizer,

989
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: you were as good as a Jew. Well, yeah, not

990
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: not quite that bad. When these guys got caught there,

991
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: they're punishment was not nearly as hard guys, But I

992
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: think that that was the kind of but they were.

993
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: But there you could have they could have been executed,

994
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, they really could have been executed or set

995
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: off to one of the one of the big camps,

996
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: Auschwitz or somewhere like that. And that's that's exactly what

997
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: it's lesson of history. Of the two choices, execution was

998
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: the best better, yeah, yeah. Otherwise yeah, it's quicker, are Yeah.

999
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: Otherwise you go off and you either are starved and

1000
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: worked to death, or you die disease like Anne Frank didn't,

1001
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: or you're experimented on or you're experimented on the somehow. Yeah, magneto.

1002
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 1: Let's move on to another suspects here. Lena Hardtag also

1003
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: known as Lena Hardtag Van it's probably the lead a

1004
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: hard Dog, but they're Hardtag van Bladder and I'm probably

1005
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: just announcing that too. She was the wife of that

1006
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: warehouse worker. I was talking about hard talk. Yeah, so

1007
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 1: he was the one that was told by Van Maren

1008
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 1: that there were Jews in the building. She also worked

1009
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: in the building as a cleaner. Uh and so undoubtedly

1010
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: her husband told her what he had heard. Uh and

1011
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: and she was named as a suspect in the Biography

1012
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: of A Frank, written by Melissa Mueller when published in

1013
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: nine According to testimony in nineteen investigation, Ana Anagano, who

1014
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: was somebody who Lena also worked for. She didn't just

1015
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: clean the spaces at Otto Frank's building, she cleaned other

1016
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: places too. Yeah, so she was an employer, and Agana

1017
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 1: was Lena's employer. And Lena said that she was worried

1018
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 1: about her husband's safety because he worked in a building

1019
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: where Jews were being hidden. So it appears that Lena knew.

1020
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 1: Lena and her husband both knew about the Franks. But this, again,

1021
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: this goes in line with what Devin was talking about earlier,

1022
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: where everybody's like, oh, there's nobody in that building, but

1023
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: we all really know. Yeah, Like that's that's that's how

1024
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: I take that. Yeah, I know I think that I

1025
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: can see the I guess I can see her going

1026
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: and in attempt to protect her husband from being accused

1027
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: as a sympathizer, going to the authorities and reporting and saying,

1028
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: my husband and I couldn't possibly be involved in this thing.

1029
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: There are Jews living up there. We told you, so

1030
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: it's not our fault. We just found out. Yeah. But um,

1031
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 1: the on the on the other side of the ledger though,

1032
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: if she was so concerned about her husband, then why

1033
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: was he there in the day of the raid because

1034
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: he was Yeah, well, I know, I don't believe it

1035
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,959
Speaker 1: for a second, but I'm I don't know, I'm playing

1036
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: Deuvil's advocate. I'm going back and forth. She's a weekendidate.

1037
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: On the other other hand, one of the I can't

1038
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 1: remember which one it was, one of the helpers that

1039
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 1: was at the office that day, said that the one

1040
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: that when the police showed up, uh, he like already

1041
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 1: has his coat on it. He was out the door. Yeah,

1042
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: like he had spotted the cops. Are knew the cops

1043
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: for coming at a certain time, and it's like, I'm

1044
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: out of here. So I don't know, I really don't know.

1045
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: But you know, it's just it just seems like a

1046
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: bad idea because the problem from his point of view,

1047
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: if if he and his wife we're actually thinking about

1048
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: ratting on the Franks and company, is that the most

1049
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: of the people that you work for are going to

1050
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: get carted off to the camps and most likely not

1051
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: a great business model. Yeah and so and so by

1052
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, you're kind of guaranteeing the closure

1053
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: of the business that pays your salary. And so, yeah,

1054
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: you actually had a financial incentive to keep his mouth shut.

1055
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: I think you think. Yeah. So that's why I'm thinking

1056
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: both Lena and her husband are probably not suspects as

1057
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: far as another suspect. And Jane know, uh, you know, yeah,

1058
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: I know, want the hell why the hell not? Because

1059
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: she did she was told that there were Jews hiding

1060
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: in the warehouse. But I just threw that one in

1061
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: for fun. I don't. I don't have any reason to

1062
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: believe she is. And of course another theory is that, uh,

1063
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: they rated themselves out just by getting careless leading windows.

1064
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest, this is the one I'm

1065
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: leaning towards. How many times have you moved into a

1066
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: place and you've had to be one you had to

1067
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: do something very specifically and there's these rigid rules, and

1068
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: then you start to get more and more lax about it.

1069
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: You're gonna get careless, and I gonna get careless. You're

1070
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: gonna leave the window cracked, you're gonna leave the blinds parted,

1071
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna talk in a normal voice instead of a

1072
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: hush tone. You're just gonna automatically flush the toilet in

1073
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: the middle of the afternoon because you've really felt like

1074
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: that should have been flushed right away. I mean, like this,

1075
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: this just happens. People just tend to get comfortable and

1076
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: go back to their old habit, particularly if you've been

1077
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: living there for two years. Two years and you think, well,

1078
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: we haven't caught yet. Yeah, I get just thinking, what

1079
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: the hell we're bulletproof. Yeah, but you know, I see,

1080
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: like Frank up the Granma phone. Well let's have a

1081
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: tap dancing competition. Yeah. But yeah, I still I still

1082
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: think that it wasn't one of those situations where somebody

1083
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 1: heard some weird stuff going on next door the building

1084
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: across the way I was talking in the cafe was

1085
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: overheard by a Nazi collaborator. There was a there was

1086
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: a deliberate tip off. There was a phone call made

1087
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: so somebody did wrap them out. It just was probably

1088
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: not nobody on our list here. Could have been somebody

1089
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: who lived nearby, somebody lived across the street or worked

1090
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: across the street and just kept seeing this weird stuff. Yeah, absolutely,

1091
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: And so quite possibly one of their neighbors that suspected

1092
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: something was going on there or saw people and there

1093
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: when when it was a business where there shouldn't have

1094
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: been people there on the weekend or after hours, there

1095
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: was money to be made. Um, it's a great way

1096
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 1: to curry favor with the occupiers. So that most likely

1097
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: is it probably nobody on our list, just some random

1098
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: person watching the building and thought, hey, there's some jew

1099
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: hiding going on here, and wow, did you just make

1100
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: that one up? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Uh. The problem with

1101
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: the mystery is there's just too many people who could

1102
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: have known and could have had suspicions. Yeah, the policeman,

1103
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: I remember I talked about him, Carl silver Bauer, the

1104
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: guy from Vienna who was Yeah, he headed the raid

1105
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: and he was tracked down in Vienna in nineteen sixty

1106
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: three by Simon Visenthal. We've heard of Simon's Visens, all right,

1107
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: I think, so we never heard him. I haven't very

1108
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: very famous Nazi hunter. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay, Yeah,

1109
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: I knew I'd heard the name. Yeah, and it's a

1110
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: Visenthal tracked him down in Vienna because he was back

1111
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: in Vienna. He was working in the Vienna Police Force

1112
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: at the time, and he was asked about the call

1113
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: that was made, and silver Bauer said that the call

1114
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: was made to his superior officer. He had no idea

1115
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: who the caller was, and he was he was just

1116
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: basically told to go to the apartment or go to

1117
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: the annex and arrest people. And so well that's what

1118
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: he did. But he had no idea and unfortunately the guy,

1119
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: the superior officer who actually took the call, but it's

1120
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: suicide not long after the war. So the one person

1121
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: who probably knew the identity of the caller at the gender.

1122
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the gender, yeah, because nobody even knows the gender.

1123
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: A lot of people have said it was a woman,

1124
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: but nobody really knows that for sure. Incidentally, silver Bauer

1125
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 1: he was he was suspended from his job at the

1126
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: Vienna Police Well, yeah, because he had been doing this,

1127
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, sort of collaborating kind of stuff, you know,

1128
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: and and then but it turned out Otto Frank of

1129
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: all people have put an a word in his favor.

1130
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: He said that he felt like silver Bauer had been

1131
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: very civilized and nice to them and hadn't been hadn't

1132
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: been brutal or anything like that or cruel. And then

1133
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: did you hear a lot of stories of guys in

1134
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: that position, Yeah, yeah, and and that he felt Frank

1135
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: felt that he was just doing his job and following

1136
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: orders and so and so that actually got him reinstated

1137
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: in the Vienna Police Force. That's one of those kind

1138
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: of like restorative moments for me, you know, Yeah, that

1139
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: like restores my faith in humanity. That somebody who's gone

1140
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: through lost literally everything that they ever had in their

1141
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: entire life, and it's gone through just more hell than

1142
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: we could ever understand, would be so forgiving to be

1143
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: able to say that guy was just doing his job.

1144
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't his fault. That's on the level of the

1145
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: things that you hear about like Gandhi or the Dali

1146
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: Lama do where somebody brutalizes and beats the holy hell

1147
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:35,439
Speaker 1: out of him and they just turn around and there

1148
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: it's not your fault, I forgive you, or something. Sometimes

1149
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: with shoot like mass shootings. Yeah, every once in a

1150
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: while people will come and comfort the family of the shooter,

1151
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, the people who are families of the victims.

1152
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: That's insane to me. I would like to say that

1153
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: I would be that big of a person if something

1154
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: like that happened to me, but I definitely would not.

1155
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: I'd be like, no, that did it it with his Now,

1156
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: I think that this is why we do show stories

1157
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: that are over five years old. So the kid get

1158
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: like that because yeah, yeah, I agree, and I think

1159
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: that I don't. I don't think that Otto Frank was

1160
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, all saint like in Gandhi like her. But

1161
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: I think that was an incredible moment. Oh yeah, yeah,

1162
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: because you know, you know, you got this this one

1163
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: guy who's you know, perfectly frie fine and perfectly nice

1164
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: to you. It says Sarah, I'm so sorry, but I

1165
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: gotta take you away. I apologize, you know, I was sympathetic,

1166
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: but you know, if I don't do what they tell

1167
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: me to do, they're shoot me. So yeah, and there's

1168
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of other dudes here watching what we're talking about.

1169
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So so that's about it, unless you guys

1170
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: have any many other theories or suspects. No, not really. Yeah.

1171
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: Actually I was gonna I was gonna try to like

1172
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: fit the chupa cop into this one, but Shanna told

1173
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: me no way. I read that she did. She like

1174
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: used all three of us. She was like, if Steve,

1175
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: I mean, Devin, I mean you trying to blame this

1176
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: on the chop of cabra. Yeah, now we're not gonna

1177
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: go there, no chupercabra for this one. Yeah. Yeah, So

1178
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: that's it. I think that unless you know, it's still possible.

1179
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody might somewhere find some papers or something.

1180
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, but at this point, I think that all

1181
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: of that stuff has been picked through with such a

1182
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: fine toothcomb. Oh my god, I mean, this is this

1183
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: is one of another one of those ones where we

1184
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: talked about the hit kaifek. It's it's unsolvable at this point. Yeah.

1185
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: The key pieces of the puzzle are just gone. Yeah,

1186
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: they are right now. It's it would be just an

1187
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: entire fluke if you came across you know, somebody's papers

1188
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: and everything like that, and it was all very very

1189
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: very documented and everything maybe okay possible, I doubt I

1190
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: doubt that's going to happen. If you've got any theories

1191
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 1: of your own. No, you can send us an email.

1192
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,919
Speaker 1: That's at Thinking Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.

1193
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: If you are indeed the and you're still alive while

1194
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: you're pretty old, but we love to hear from you,

1195
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: but we would love to hear from it. Come on,

1196
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 1: rat send us an email. Uh our website where you

1197
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: can Yeah, I think our website is Thinking Sideways podcast

1198
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Of course you can listen to episodes there,

1199
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: leave comments, you can check our links, which we always

1200
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: put put up links, and there's that merch there is

1201
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: to get a T shirt or a mug or something.

1202
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: And then we've got to donate button and the Patreon

1203
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: button there but which, by the way, we haven't said

1204
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: this in a while, and this is our bad. You know,

1205
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: people have been hitting those buttons, and thank you very much.

1206
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: We've been remiss. We've been very bad about saying that.

1207
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 1: That's really yeah, that is really true. Yeah, people have

1208
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: been like hitting the Patreon appreciate rock yea. Yeah. Yeah,

1209
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: you guys have to offset the costs of maintaining the

1210
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: website and all that, because you know, it does cost

1211
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: us money because we get a huge amount of traffic,

1212
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: so I means we have to pay extra. Yeah, yeah

1213
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:10,439
Speaker 1: for that, for for the website. What else? iTunes? Yeah,

1214
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: you can find us on iTunes, so please subscribe and

1215
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: review good review preferably. You can stream us from just

1216
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 1: about anywhere. There's all kinds of streaming services. We're on Facebook.

1217
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: We have both our page and a group, so you

1218
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: can be part of both of those. And we're on

1219
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: Twitter thinking sideways, not thinking, but thinking. I actually did

1220
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: a tweet the other day. Yeah, that's rare. Actually I

1221
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: didn't notice that you did a tweet, so I'm I'm

1222
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: gonna have to go back and work at there was

1223
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: a single sentence in response to something, because that's all

1224
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: I know how to tweet. I don't know how I

1225
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: feel about that. We also have the sub subreddit thinking.

1226
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: There's a there's an attempt at a conversation of every episode.

1227
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting if you're on reddit subscribe. I don't

1228
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: of those conversations are happening on Facebook. Yeah, that seems

1229
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: to be the more popular way. I'm not gonna say

1230
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: it's the better way, but it's the more popular way currently.

1231
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: But absolutely, the reddit thread is another place to go

1232
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: and discuss these things, and I'm there. If you see

1233
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: any of us quote unquote us talking on a reddit,

1234
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: it's me. Yeah, probably come talk to me. Yeah. What

1235
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: else we got to talk about here? Patreon much of

1236
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 1: that already, that's that's entirely voluntary, right, you can pledge

1237
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 1: a certain amount per episode. What's what's the eddress for

1238
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: that forum? So everybody knows what it is. It's Patreon

1239
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: dot com. That's uh P A t R e O

1240
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 1: N dot com, slash thinking sideways, keeper easy, and you

1241
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: can you can go out there and pledge, you know,

1242
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: up to I don't know if there's a limit if

1243
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: there's not, so you can play pledge like a million

1244
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: episode if you want to. And I will go ahead

1245
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: and say, if you pledge a million episode, you own us.

1246
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: Be realistic for our listeners. Hundred bucks, hutterbucks, realistically realistic episode.

1247
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: It's about the average we're seeing. Yeah, we we joke

1248
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: about this, but again, I know we said this every

1249
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: evens is so helpful. It'd be amazed at how those

1250
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 1: things add up, and they really do help us. Yeah,

1251
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: we like Yeah, So that's about it. Um any last

1252
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 1: parting thoughts you guys, No, I don't have anything else Yeah,

1253
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 1: I mean either, sorry and I'm just depressed now yeah

1254
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: I sad story yeah no wait wait wait to pick

1255
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: us up. Thanks do. We'll do something cheerful next week

1256
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 1: to to to cheerful stories from Joe in a row

1257
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 1: Ye wait buddy, sorry about that. It will be something

1258
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to do like an Easter bunny story next week.

1259
01:08:49,840 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 1: Sweet bye everybody, Bye guys. Ow