1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Hello, Steponomics here, and this week a special insight on 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: China from someone who has a quite different perspective on 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: the country than many of the economists and policymakers we've 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: had pontificating about it on this show. K Eu Jin, 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: a professor at the London School of Economics who's lived 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: some time in London but grew up in China and 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: still spend part of the year there. That she's in 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Beijing now, but she's kindly joined me for a conversation 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: about her new book, The New China Playbook. K Eujin, 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. As I said, 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: it's sort of relatively rare to have someone with both 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: feet so firmly planted in both China and the West. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: And I think the other sort of particular thing about 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: you is that you have personally experienced, you and your 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: family the extraordinary transformation of China's society and economy over 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: the past thirty or forty years. And you start and 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: you end the book with that. So I think, before 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: we talk about some of the themes in your book, 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your personal story of 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: your family and how different things might have been for 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: them if you hadn't had the kind of changes in 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: China that we've seen. 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, great to be with you, Stephanie. Thanks, 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: thanks for this opportunity. Yes, I think me my family, 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: but it's only really one of so many Chinese families 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 2: who have gone through this incredible economic transformation in China. 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: My parents worked in the fields during the Cultural Revolution. 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: They were able to move to Beijing and create this 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: life for me because of the amazing meritocracy and the 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: Donzhelping's reform and opening up since the late nineteen seventies 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: that afford us so many Chinese really an economic opportunity, 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: and so my parents would be the first, again among 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: many in their generation, to have really seen their future 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: and their fate go from you know, just from the 35 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: farms to the city and even to the West. I 36 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: grew up in China, but I was an exchange student 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: in high school in the US. And when I went 38 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: to the US, it was very interesting because everyone knew 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: I was from China in high school and they could 40 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 2: only talk about or ask me about I want that 41 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: human rights. But by the time I got to college 42 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: a few years later, people were learning Mandarin and a 43 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: few years later when we were graduating, people moved to 44 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: China even to look for jobs. So that was a 45 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: personal experience, but again so typical among so many Chinese. 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: You start the book to sort of talking about the 47 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: house that you were first born into, and also you 48 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: mentioned I think it and that it was really sort 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: of luck or and I guess the good performance of 50 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: your father in his exams that meant that you left 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: the countryside at all. 52 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: Yes, I was born in an eleven square a meter apartment, 53 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: which at that time was really a luxury, and we 54 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: had communal kitchens. And my father had absolutely no family background. 55 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: He was the son of factory workers, you know, in 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: down in South and he had he was among the 57 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: first generation to take the Graduate examine examination National Graduate Examination, 58 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: which Denselping reinstalled and got himself into Beijing. And then 59 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: you know, the rest is history. 60 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: And we're all used to our own sort of parents 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: or grandparents saying I remember when. But it's the drama 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: that when you're talking about the pace of change in China, 63 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: is it something that that you talk about around the 64 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: dinner table or is it just passed without comment this point? 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: What we do talk about often that my parents like 66 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: to remind me is how grateful I should be and 67 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: we should all be to Don't helping's policies and economic 68 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: and opening up, and how difficult it was for the Chinese, 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: and really how grateful they should be to the country 70 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: and to the great leaders that have given everybody an opportunity. 71 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: And I think that is a very you know, kind 72 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: of a common feature in the discussion of all Chinese families. 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: And it's interesting even in the way you say that, 74 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: you have pointed up one of the great things that 75 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: people outside China find so hard to understand. That sort 76 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: of deep sense of deference and gratitude that is so 77 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: widely shared by people across China is kind of one 78 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: of those you know, we don't spend on We don't 79 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: spend very much of our time giving thanks for our 80 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: leaders and their great decision. And just in terms of 81 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: the numbers, you had a great stat it was just 82 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: a good way of summer rising. You mentioned that over 83 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: the years of the Industrial Revolution were considered to be 84 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: amazing because they improved the standard of living by seventy 85 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: five percent within a single lifetime. But the growth rates 86 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: in China, as you point out, mean that many Chinese 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: will see living standards rise seventy five fold, so seven 88 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: five hundred percent. I thought that just really kind of 89 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: put it into perspective. Okay, So your book, you mentioned 90 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: the phrase several times reading China in the original that 91 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: what do we miss by not doing that, by not 92 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: seeing China through Chinese eyes? 93 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: You know, you know, culturally, historically, China comes from a 94 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: very different place, and we keep on judging China for 95 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: what it is through the Western lens, will get China wrong, 96 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: will predict China wrong, as we have many times, We 97 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: will not see their view of the Chinese people. And so, 98 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: whether you're a policy maker or a student learning about 99 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: China or business is wanting to engage or disengage with China, 100 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: just having that bit of a cultural and historical nuance 101 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: and understanding how that really vastly different economic model political 102 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: economy model works would be just so important. 103 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: So what's an example of a misunderstanding of China that 104 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: is potentially dangerous at the current time. 105 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: Well, I think it starts from the misunderstanding of China's 106 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,559 Speaker 2: ambitions and goals in the world. There is a view 107 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: that China is trying to displace the US, for example, 108 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: but it is actually trying to overcome a middle income trap. 109 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: We're talking about its economic goal in the next fifteen 110 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: years or so to be reaching twenty three thousand dollars 111 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: of per capita income. We're talking about six hundred million 112 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: people who's living under three hundred dollars of monthly income, 113 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: still needing to reach international standards middle income. And I 114 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: think for the Chinese, they believe, well, first of all, 115 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: if the Chinese people have a right to prosperity, have 116 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: a right to attain the technolog technological prowess that all 117 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: developing countries and emerging countries, emerging markets want to have 118 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: some day. I don't think it's stupid enough to want 119 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: to displace the US for some reason, because it's not 120 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: really currently feasible. But also, you know, I'm less dangerous, 121 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: but just so important and interesting. And every time I 122 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: mentioned this, I think people are just so surprised, even 123 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: extremely cosmopolitan while educated people. Is how the political economy 124 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: works in China. People think about China as a centralized 125 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: state with you know, with almighty control, but actually the 126 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: economic model is a very decentralized model. I call this 127 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: the Mayor economy in my book, and it just goes 128 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: to show that all the economic transformation reforms we talked about, 129 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: the innovation, controlling pollution and really just building these amazing unicorns, 130 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: so many unicorns, hundreds of unicorns a year in China 131 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: are scattered all throughout China rather than just focused on 132 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: Beijing and Shanjin and Shagha all because of the mayors, 133 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 2: so to speak, that economic decentralization is so far none 134 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: of you know, my friends have have understood. 135 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: Of course, what people look at and what they think 136 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: of when they're sort of focused on the control of 137 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: the power of the state is the control over political 138 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: activity and to some extent, the power control of individual thought. 139 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: When you think of all the surveillance the Great Fire 140 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: will preventing people in China from from seeing everything on 141 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: the on the internet from outside China, I mean, it's 142 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to argue that it isn't a strong central. 143 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: State politically, it's a very strong central state. But I 144 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: think the question that you've raised here there's also a 145 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: bit of misunderstanding. There's actually a very very dynamic, more 146 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: than we believe dynamic, civic debate on social media in China, 147 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: and apart from a few Tiboo issues. There are things 148 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: ranging from organizing protests around China. You know, as an example, 149 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 2: there was something like more than eleven thousand protests just 150 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: over land use rights, not to mention so many other protests, 151 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: and they allow that there is criticism. One of the 152 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: top key hot issues is criticisms of local officials calling 153 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 2: them out in corruption or if they had a mistress 154 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: that was found somewhere, that was spotted somewhere, or expensive watches. 155 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: There's a huge amount of pushback. Again, these stories don't 156 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: get reported. But for instance, in the city of Hungo 157 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: down south, you know, people complained about the data collection 158 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: and data privacy issues from a public park and then 159 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: they canceled the whole thing. They canceled the facial recognition 160 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: ticket system. So you're actually able to push the local 161 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: officials to change and relatively rapidly if there's wide discontent. Now, 162 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: of course there's some things that you don't hear, and 163 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 2: there is a censorship on the social media platform the 164 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: highly highly sensitive political issues which not every single Chinese 165 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: citizen talks about. But again there are also loopholes. You know, 166 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: some of them would post during the midnight and then 167 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: by the time the officials in charge will wake up. 168 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: It was already you know, everywhere on the internet, so 169 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 2: it's not that easy to implement. But I agree with you, Stephanie. 170 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 2: There has been tighter control and more surveillance in the years, 171 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: that's for sure true. But to see the complete picture, 172 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: we have to recognize that it's not a bunch of 173 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: just one point four billion people having no voice at all. 174 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: We've had a situation where over thirty or forty years, 175 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: China has made itself, as we discovered recently, indispensable to 176 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: global manufacturing production. Even people who don't think they're dependent 177 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: on China have found, you know, actually there's you know, 178 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: some number of parts that come through China or are 179 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: made in China, and that's obviously animated President Biden's push 180 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: to diversify production globally and to some extent decouple. I'm 181 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 1: sort of fascinating when China obviously would be proud of 182 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: what it's achieved, is it does it think that the 183 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: rest of the world was a bit foolish to allow 184 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: themselves so easily to become hooked on Chinese production? Does 185 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: it inculcate a sort of lack of respect? It sort 186 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: of sometimes feels we sort of wonder whether China's kind 187 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: of laughing at us behind our backs, but having got 188 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: ourselves in this situation. 189 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, absolutely not. I think globalization was the 190 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: best thing that happened to China and allowing China to 191 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: embrace it unless we really kind of believe that somehow 192 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: we ought to have three quarters of the people in 193 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: the world living in an abject poverty. I just don't 194 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: see any rationale against this view of deglobalization and decoupling. 195 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 2: And we can't forget about the eighty percent of the 196 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: people still living and developing world. 197 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: In today's world thinking about China right now, and obviously 198 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: people are looking at China's economy being feeling a bit 199 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: concerned about the slowdown we've seen in the last few months, 200 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: and some of the very deep seated challenges that the 201 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: government fail is, for example, that the real estate trying 202 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: to reduce the amount of investment in real estate without 203 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: seriously undermining the economy given that the property has been 204 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: such a big play puts a big part in growth. 205 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: How do you judge the way Si Jinping and his 206 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: new administration are sort of handling those challenges facing the economy. 207 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: Well, First of all the overarching mood is a return 208 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: of pragmatism. Pragmatism just the basic principle for Chinese people 209 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: all these years and still not regarten. It's still most important. 210 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: Despite everything we think about security and nationalism, pragmatism is 211 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: actually what the Chinese people want the most. So it's 212 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: kind of ironic that the economy has to suffer that 213 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: much before the return of pragmaticals. Once again, keep your 214 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: head down, make GDP great jobs, and that's what the 215 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: government is focused on. 216 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: Sorry, just to interrupt when you say the return of practice, 217 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: and so what was it returning from what have we've seen? 218 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: Well, we had a lot of yeah, we especially in 219 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: the last year or so during COVID and during the 220 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: Party Congress, there was a lot of mention of security. 221 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: There was a lot of mention of the threats that 222 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: have encircled China, external, internal pandemic, and how security was 223 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: really the most important thing for China. And we're going 224 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: to see security being continued to be important, but it 225 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: will be a pendulum swing between the economy and security, 226 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: and sometimes economics wares and as you mentioned, Stephanie could 227 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: correctly pointed out the real economics difficulty right now is 228 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: to find something to replace the property sector, which broadly 229 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: accounted for a third of China's GDP. And even though 230 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: recent ursus are directed towards now hard tech, now the 231 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,359 Speaker 2: high tech, now towards you know, things like evs and renewables, 232 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: that's just not enough in the short term to get 233 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: the GDP numbers to create the kind of jobs that 234 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: are required for social stability, but to reduce youth unemployment, 235 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: which is north of twenty percent currently, So what could 236 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: that be. They're still finding the way. So the short 237 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: term we really might see a slow economy. I don't 238 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: think there's going to be a collapse or at any sort. 239 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: I think the government will do enough to reach the 240 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: goal of reaching twothout and twenty three thousand dollars per 241 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: capita income in twenty thirty five, but I wouldn't my 242 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: hopes up for really spectacular performance. 243 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting you mentioned that our chief economist Tom 244 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: Morlig was saying, you know, just a few years ago, 245 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: it was very difficult to imagine China not rapidly overtaking 246 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: the US as the world's biggest economy. But we're now 247 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: seeing as we update our new forecasts and think about 248 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: downside and upside scenarios, and there's there's lots of scenarios 249 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: under which that great moment of China overtaking the US 250 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: is delayed a long time and somewhere it doesn't happen 251 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: at all. 252 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: Well, Stephanie, I think it's true with these scenarios, but 253 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: China needs to only only needs to grow one point 254 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: five percentage points faster than the US to overtake it 255 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: in a little more than ten years. And I think 256 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: is actually pretty plausible given that it's all about relative performance. 257 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: But I think it really depends on how how you 258 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: get there, right, So, just in terms of nominally achieving 259 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: a size that's larger than the US, I'm actually more 260 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: optimistic than those projections, but I don't think it necessarily 261 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: means all that much unless you really raise the standards 262 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 2: of living and less China really really is able to 263 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: come up with its own, you know, high tech independence again, 264 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: I think is going to be the story of the 265 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: next decade, and that you know they can't economic growth 266 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: is actually real rather than just the macro numbers. 267 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: You talk quite a lot about the crucial importance for 268 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: the continued support for the government and for the party 269 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: is that it delivers stability, that it deliver rising prosperity 270 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: is the government, and as is China ready for a 271 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: situation in which we don't see the kind of dramatic 272 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: economic growth we've seen, or indeed we may see, you know, 273 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: quite meager growth over the next few years. 274 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: I think one one group to watch is the younger generation. 275 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: You know. Imagine that you've done everything in your life, 276 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: and your family has spent every penny of their savings 277 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: on your education, and you get a bachelor's degree and 278 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: you're in trentees and you don't even have a first job. 279 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: I mean, that's seriously concerning, uh, for the Chinese families 280 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: and therefore for the government. Uh. And so how do 281 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: you solve that high youth unemployment problem? I think comes 282 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: before and many other things because remember that Chinese family 283 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: is Another cultural misunderstanding that I highlight in my book 284 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: is that it's a dynastic you know family. It's not 285 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 2: about maximizing one's individual consumption, as the Western canonical economic 286 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: model always assumes, but it's about you know, intergenerational altruism, 287 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: household maximizing household consumption or saving for your children or 288 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: saving so that you can support your parents in an 289 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: older age. None of that, very little of that is 290 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: featured uh in the in the in these basic workhorse 291 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: frameworks in the in the Western economics. But that is 292 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: just the basic foundation. So when the Chinese families are 293 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: unhappy collectively, then I think it's a potential threat to 294 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: social stability. Now, we saw how rapid things changed at 295 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: the end of last year during the pandemic, when China 296 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: opened up so much earlier than expected as of resistance. 297 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: I mean that just goes to show the people has 298 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: enormous power, and the sea of the people is really 299 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: what keeps the float of leadership, keeps that boat of 300 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: leadership afloat. We're not seeing necessary signs of social instability 301 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: because of the economy. Yet it really depends on whether 302 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: that pragmatic attitude will hold in the coming years. There 303 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: is a gap of twenty five million jobs in manufacturing 304 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: the next three years needing to be filled. There is 305 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 2: a three hundred thousand talent gap just in semiconductor sectors alone. 306 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: But the real chasm is that there's you know, there's 307 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 2: difference between expectations and reality in the Chinese students and 308 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: getting this bachelors degree, who wants to have a high 309 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 2: earning job in finance and real estate, except that they're 310 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: not that many jobs in finance and real estate. 311 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: You talk about the new generation and them having different 312 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: expectations and potentially just very different individual experiences from their family. 313 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: One of the things, the basic things that the West 314 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: has been surprised about, rightly or wrongly, is that there 315 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: hasn't been more of a move towards more democratic, more 316 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: individualistic society as a market economy has taken hold in China. 317 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: At the bottom of that is a sort of continued 318 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: belief that as you move to a more service oriented, 319 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: so service sector based economy, which structurally they have to do, 320 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: and as they move to having more of the growth 321 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: of the economy driven by consumption not investment, which I 322 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: think the government also recognizes a country, and certainly as 323 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: you try and develop more and more technological innovation and 324 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: you are more on the kind of frontier of technology 325 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: rather than catching up to the rest of the world, 326 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: that to us spells a need for a more individualistic society, 327 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: one where people will feel I'm more likely to feel 328 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: oppressed by a very strong single party government, So do 329 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: not recognize that as a possibility that some of those 330 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: cultural traditions will come right up against just the economy 331 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: as it is today and will be in the next 332 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: ten twenty years. 333 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: The relationship with authority is something that is very different 334 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: from the West, and it's kind of ingrained in the 335 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: Chinese people since we were young. The relationship with our 336 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: parents and our Confucian family, the relationship with our teachers, 337 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: you know, and of course the relationship with authorities, the government. 338 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: The Chinese people have always had to learn to balance 339 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: at a desire of exerting one's individual free will and 340 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: behaving in a community deference in collaboration and cooperation with 341 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 2: the government or with your authorities. But I think, Stephanie, 342 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: at the bottom line, if you're asking, you know, if 343 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: the question is if the Chinese people want to have 344 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: a more free and open society, I think the answer 345 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: is a resounding yes. And I think whether it's the 346 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: new generation and even much more so the older generation 347 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: like those in the nineteen sixties, they aspire democratic values. 348 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: But I also have to say they're not that inspired 349 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: by its Western incarnation, Western incarnation of democracy, because they 350 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: would be, you know, observing the fact that there's so 351 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 2: much bickering. And for the US, they'd be wondering why 352 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 2: a society that champions rights don't give all the women 353 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: rights to end unwanted pregnancies. And they would be, you know, 354 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: looking at the gun violence and the potholes on the 355 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: streets in the US, and they would be they're be wondering. Now, 356 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: that was not necessarily cased. In the eighties and nineties, 357 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 2: when the Chinese people was more mesmerized by the US, 358 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: people were very deeply impressed. So at that point you 359 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: saw many Chinese people asparring to that society and that 360 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 2: openness and that freedom, et cetera. But I think less 361 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: and less so, and this is very clear from the surveys, 362 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: international surveys of the different generations. The new generations has 363 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: no appetite to have overhauled their own system. And yes, 364 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: I think things have become difficult in the last few years, 365 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: the last two years, especially by the end of the pandemic. 366 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: But over the last decade the Chinese people have been 367 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: more proud, not less proud, and more sure of their 368 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: system the power of their system, than compared to many 369 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 2: years ago. Again, I'm not saying what is good and wrong, 370 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: right or wrong. But this is understating the facts of 371 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: how the Chinese people feel and when they look at 372 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: democracies for inspiration outside of China. 373 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you say in your book that understanding Chinese 374 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: thinking doesn't mean endorsing it in its entirety. I have 375 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: to admit kind of, as you read it, it sort 376 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: of feels like you do pretty much endorse it its entirety. 377 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: I mean you even the mistakes that you identify, all 378 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: the economic problems that you identify, you know, you then 379 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: sort of later in the book explain how they have 380 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: been reversed or remedied by a very agile and flexible 381 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: response by the state. So I guess I'm just wondering, 382 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: do you what do you think that the other countries 383 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: have done better than China? Where do you think China 384 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: should needs to learn lessons? 385 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: I think if you felt a sense of endorsement, it 386 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: was an endorsement. It was certain kind to model in 387 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: the early stages of developments, not eternally. And if there's 388 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: one thing I think there, it is important. It is 389 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: important and proved to be repeatedly crucial for countries to 390 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: jump out of poverty and slowly tread on the middle 391 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: income path towards rich to rich income. It's high quality 392 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: state capacity. And China's model was a form one form 393 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 2: of delivering high quality state capacity, not the only and 394 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: unique form, but I think it does have certain developmental lessons. 395 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: And just take a solid example. Recently, China became the 396 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: largest producer and consumer of evs within a decade. How 397 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 2: was it able to do that? Well, it wasn't able 398 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 2: to It wasn't. It wouldn't have been able to do 399 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 2: that without the government installing four million EV charging stations 400 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: around the country. Compared to China, the US is one 401 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 2: hundred and forty thousand. And it wouldn't have been able 402 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 2: to do it so quickly if the local government officials 403 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 2: were not so avidly working on coordinating supply chains all 404 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: around China, you know, gathering battery makers, control systems, manufacturers, 405 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 2: et cetera all together. That requires high quality state capacity. 406 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: But can you think of anything that China got wrong 407 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: that America's got right? 408 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, and you mentioned the other countries done well, 409 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: you know there there there are many countries that you know, 410 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: we always talk about getting to Denmark, even in the West. 411 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: You know, the kind of the the you know, the 412 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: lower levels of inequality, the social goods and public goods 413 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: that have been delivered to the people, the general level happiness. 414 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: I think we should all aspire to get to Denmark. 415 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: But Denmark is also kind of tiny, if I may 416 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: say so. So it's obviously more difficult for bigger countries 417 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: like the US and China. And eventually we're going to 418 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: see what's going to happen to India, right, And so 419 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: I think all of these large economies have their their 420 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: their challenges because the complexity of society. I will say that. 421 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: But you know, you know, if we observe South Korea 422 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 2: or Japan closer as neighbors, you know they are they 423 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: are good models of relatively good liberal democracies that have worked. 424 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: But I think that the real issue, it really is 425 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: China is going to become much more complex social even 426 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: more than now, and that's going to be the real 427 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: challenge for the country and for the government. Because in 428 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: the last forty years, people were centered on one goal, 429 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 2: and that was economic growth and senior income grow up 430 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: up and up, and that was what that was the 431 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: focal point of the nation. Everybody was rallied around that goal. 432 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,239 Speaker 2: Now as you reach middle income, as you reach you know, 433 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 2: a richer income, country level income. Yeah, people are going 434 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: to want different things. They're going to want their preferences 435 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: to be reflected ultimately in political decisions, and so I 436 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: think that will be a challenge. And how can you 437 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: manage if going to be much more difficult to manage 438 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 2: a complex society with a wide range of needs and 439 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: desires rather than just the economies. I think that would 440 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: really be the challenge for China. 441 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry to talk to you, but I just 442 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: find it kind of interesting that you can't I mean, 443 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: as you say, there's the two big countries, and there's 444 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: lots of things that are different about them, but I 445 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: just it seems like you can't think of something that 446 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: China's got wrong. 447 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: I've been I've been digressing. No, Look, the Chinese are 448 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: absolutely mesborized by entrepreneurs like Elon Musk and the technological 449 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: innovation is like chat, GPT. They are obsessed with them. 450 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: The new generation are obsessed with them. And how do 451 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: you have a society that can allow these great things 452 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 2: to happen? Is what absolutely I think the US would 453 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: be ahead of China for a very very long time 454 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: and if we're talking about basically breakthrough technologies, it's in America, 455 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: it's not in China. Yet that comes down to so 456 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: many things, so many factors, and not least civil society 457 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: and its openness and its relationship between the universities and 458 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: and and industries, and that free flow of ideas absolutely crucial. 459 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: And that's that's for sure something that the US has 460 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: gone right. Thank you. 461 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: So my final question, do you find the students LC 462 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: very different from students who teach? It's an obvious question, 463 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: but I'm just fascinated. I mean, when you talk about 464 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: this sort of tradition, the way people deal with their 465 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: teachers and everything else, do you find the British students 466 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: terribly insubordinate and cheeky? 467 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: No? No, no, I think no, not at all. I 468 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 2: think you yeah, actually, you know, each student is different. 469 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: But I think the Chinese students come into my office 470 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: and often start with what their parents think, which is 471 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: you know, sur writing, especially when it comes to their future. 472 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: But look, you know, good students are always great students 473 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: because of their ability to think out of the box. 474 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: And we see that whether you're Chinese or Grits. And 475 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: I think the new generation as I mentioned, they're much 476 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: more so to speak, individualistic and selfish and eyes of 477 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: the authorities. But that's a good thing. You know. They 478 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: want to consume more, they want to borrow more, so 479 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: they're going to change the economy. But I still think 480 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: their roots are culturally deeply rooted in China, that local, 481 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: the relationship with the local culture. You know, in the 482 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: last decade or so, eighty percent of the students who 483 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: have studied abroad have returned to China. And if really 484 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: China wasn't a really great place, how could these people 485 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: who had jobs in Microsoft and Google and Facebook give 486 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: them up to go back to pursue their future in China. 487 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: So it can't be as bad as we think. In fact, 488 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: they had been rather optimistic about their nation's future. 489 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: Okay, Jan, thank you so much. 490 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: Thank you, Stephanie. 491 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Stephenomics. Next week we 492 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: will have more. In the meantime, you can get a 493 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: lot more economic insight and news from the Bloomberg Terminal 494 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: website or app. This episode was produced by Mangnus, Hendrickson, 495 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: Yang Yang and Samasadi, with special thanks to Professor k 496 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: Yu Jin, the executive producer of Stephanomics is Molly Smith, 497 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: and the head of Bloomberg Podcast is Sage Bowmen.