WEBVTT - Can Anarchism Work? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.960 Hey, everyone, we're coming to Salt Lake City, Utah and Phoenix, 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.840 Arizona this fall. Yeah, October, we're gonna be at Salt 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.959 Lake Cities Grand Theater and then the next night October 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.160 will be in Phoenix. And we added a second show 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.160 to our Melbourne show, right, that's right, a second earlier 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.840 show in Melbourne. So you can get all the information 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.200 for all of these shows at s y s K 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.240 live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you should Know from 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:36.400 how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.720 I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.640 this is getting to be kind of normal, but it's 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:50.919 just us today, everybody. Jerry's fine, she's not in the hospital. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.480 She's just checked out. She's not in hospice. No, she's 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.480 just been busy lately. So everything will be back to 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.720 normal soon. She she said, Guys, ten years is all 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.240 you get from me. I know, seriously, kind of since 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.480 that anniversary she's been just didn't care, checked out. As 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:18.280 I said, we're kidding, of course. Ish, but speaking of 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:24.880 not issues but is ms, let's talk about anarchism. Chuck, Yeah, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.080 this one was interesting. I think I pitched this one 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.160 a long time ago. You never did it for some reason. 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.119 I think it just probably came at a time when 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.119 we're we just didn't have enough time to do it. Yeah, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.240 I think you're right, But this this was interesting, um, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:44.959 because anarchism can be a lot of different things. Yeah. Yeah. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.160 I think a lot of people have the idea that 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.640 anarchism is anarchy, and that the whole point of it 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:57.600 is to just basically demolish all institutions, um, descend into lawlessness, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.480 um disorder exactly where you just you just take what 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.560 you want and you know, you kill somebody and it's 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:09.560 fine or whatever. Um, that's not the point of anarchism. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.360 That is the definition of anarchy. But anarchy is not 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.240 what anarchists are actually out for. There's like a couple 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.240 of threads in there that are the basis of that. Like, 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.680 it's not just a complete mischaracterization, but it's just so 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.480 off base that it might as well just be You 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.360 might as well just be talking about something totally different. Yeah, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.079 And there are many many forms that anarchism can take, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.440 and there are many schools of thought, um, and there's 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:38.880 no way we're going to touch on all of them. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.040 But we're gonna We're gonna do what we do, which 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.799 is a nice overview of some of them. Yes, so 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.200 our apologies to all anarchists for what we get wrong. 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.560 But I do want to put a call out. Any 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.960 follow up info I am totally open for, so send 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.120 it our way, any corrections anything like that, Yeah, totally So. Um, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.080 there are a few things. Like you said, there's a 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.080 lot of different varieties of anarchism, but there are a 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:08.480 couple of tenants that any variety of anarchists would agree with, Like, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.200 this is the basis of anarchism, right, So anarchism we 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.440 should say. Also, it's like it's a political thought. It's 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:20.920 a philosophical political idea, and the basis of the idea, 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.799 no matter how you approach it, is that humans are 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:31.119 better off governing themselves then they are in creating lasting 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.920 institutions where they send people to those institutions to make 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:40.880 decisions for them. Right. So, the the power structure as 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:46.800 it exists is not doing us any vapors. Vapors, it's 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:51.119 even worse than favors favors and that a truly free 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.480 and equal society. And you know it dips into communism 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.720 and socialism here and there and we'll cover all that, 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.840 But that is sort of the goal, like you said, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:04.000 just to down with these government authorities and elected officials. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.400 It should be run by the people in full. Yeah, exactly, 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.480 And I mean it's it's really as simple as that, right, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.040 I mean, that's the basis of anarchism. That you're you're 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.880 just you're better off without them, not not that not 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.679 that they're they even can be good. Most like died 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.760 in the wool. Anarchists will say, like, no, any artificial 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.479 institution that's created by humans to govern other humans is 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:35.240 necessarily bad. It um creates disorder, it creates chaos, it 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.280 creates it is run by violence, like they will point 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.400 out the whole way that the system is kept going 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.000 is through the threat of violence. Yeah. It's hard to 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.680 argue with a lot of this, to be honest, totally. Yeah, 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.320 it makes a tremendous amount of sense. Um. I think 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.640 really there are two things going against anarchism and practice today. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.760 One the long standing image that was developed at the 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.960 end of the nineteenth century and beginning a twentieth century 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.440 that didn't do it any favors. That the image of 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.360 the terrorists anarchists, which we'll get to and then um 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.240 to the fact that there hasn't been any longstanding examples 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.800 of this to point to. But that's not to say 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.599 that there aren't examples of actual anarchy or anarchism I'm sorry, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.720 in practice that have been successful. It's just no one's 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.279 ever been able to do it, like on a massive 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.320 national level yet, right, unlike the community scale we've seen 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.760 it and currently see it. Which we'll get to that 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.760 stuff too. But um, yeah, you're right, it's it's probably 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.400 too late with the world as it is not probably 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.080 there's just no way you could do that today. Well, 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:42.919 there's a lot of people who would disagree with you 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:48.520 about that. Yeah, sure right, you're like, okay, go do 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.960 it and they'll come over when you got it up 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.279 and running. But the word, a very word, anarchism is 0:05:54.440 --> 0:06:00.479 Greek and its root anarchia, means without rulers or without authority. Um, 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.200 but this art, this article is pretty good. Actually he 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:07.600 wrote this one, did Kiger pat Patty Kaiger Patrick? Was 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:13.840 it Kreiger or Kaiger Tiger? The r is invisible? Okay? Uh? 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.960 But he points out that the aim is social change, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.159 uh at its heart. M hmm. Yeah, that's another good point. 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.520 I've left that part out, Like that's like, that's all 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.279 that's ultimately the goal, and the point is it's like 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.840 you can do all this stuff, you can get all 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:34.000 the services that you get allegedly from government institutions, from 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.719 your friends and neighbors and community, and that that the 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.520 point of anarchism is to enact that change. Now. Don't 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.919 wait for it, don't don't like go petition for it, 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.400 just go do it and constantly be doing it to 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.200 make your society better. Yeah, and sometimes they'll depending on 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.280 where you're coming from with your group, there maybe a 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.359 little environmentalism thrown in, or a little even religion thrown in. Uh, 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.120 you know, there's other philosophy that are co morbid or 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.400 can become morbid anarchism, like like feminism is one that 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.960 they pointed out to which one feminism, And I ran 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.200 across that a lot that that there's a lot of 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.800 people that equate feminism and anarchism, as as feminism is 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.080 just in and of itself a type of anarchism because 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.880 feminists have a proven track record of just going and 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.760 doing being the change that they want to see in 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.160 the world, rather than waiting around for it or asking 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.200 for it. One example I ran across was um the 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.760 rape crisis centers of the seventies that sprung up because 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.600 the establishment just didn't take violence against women very seriously 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:44.560 and women set up clinics to handle this themselves. That 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.920 was a big time feminist move in the seventies. And 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:51.280 it is and it's heart, you know, constantly progressing socially. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.160 That's an an anarchistic tactic. I guess, well, yeah, and it. 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.160 And it seems like depending on what um, how where 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.040 where you lay your head as an anarchist, you might 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:08.040 want to concentrate more on h economy. Other people might 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.480 want to concentrate more on the um, like how to 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.960 overthrow the authority. UM, I didn't see like it's it's 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.120 interesting when you look at like like let's say the 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:24.080 mutualism school where they're all about the workers controlling their 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:29.000 own factories, controlling the land, or the anarcho communist who 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.280 say no private property for anyone. It's like a big 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.439 giant commune and no one competes for anything. Like are 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.320 there are schools of anarchy where they tackle everything? It 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.439 seems like they're getting very specific. UM. I think because 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.400 these came out of like the minds of people who 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.960 had very specific views on this stuff. Right, Like you said, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.160 communism and anarchism cross paths here there, and there's even 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.240 a variety of them combined, UM, because they I mean, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.240 they do share some qualities, right, But the the idea 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:07.600 of um communism, Okay, let me play it like this. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:12.120 Liberalism is the idea that people should be free and equal. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:17.360 Communism is the idea that people should all have the 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.840 same access to everything they need, and that it's the 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.640 state that is meant to support that stuff. With liberalism, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.360 it's the state that's meant to make sure everybody is 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.280 treated equally and everyone is free. Anarchism says, yeah, we 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.439 totally agree free and equal, we want everybody to have 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.360 everything that they need, but it's the state that we 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.600 disagree with you guys on. So that's the real distinction 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.480 between communism, communism, and liberalism and anarchism is that they 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.720 all kind of have the same ideal, which is freedom, equality, 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.800 equal access to everything, resources, that kind of stuff. But 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:54.880 whether or not there should be a state or you 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.040 need a state to to do this is the big 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.560 distinction between those, UM, And I think that's where the 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.120 kind of the narrow mindedness comes from on some of these. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.320 That makes sense, thanks, I think so. Um, when it 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.679 comes to how to get rid of the current establishment, 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.320 I guess you would say, Uh, there are many schools 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.680 of thought on that one. It's called the anarcho syndicalists. 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:20.920 And I looked into this a bit more. This I 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.240 think many modern anarchists find this to be a bit 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.680 old fashioned. But this is the idea that uh, it's 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.319 called a direct action system where the labor unions affect 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.720 the change, and uh, they want to abolish the wage system. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.440 And by by direct action, that means sort of what 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.000 you're talking about at the beginning, which is instead of 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.600 electing someone, even the head of a labor union to 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.640 go take care of something, we do it ourselves. Right. 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.480 That's like direct direct representation or direct democracy, I mean yeah, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.720 rather than representative democracy. Right. And then there's so another 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.640 way of putting direct action and is where if you 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.640 like those rape crisis centers that feminists created in the seventies. Um, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.839 if if you go and just create the rape crisis center, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.960 as if there's no such thing as the state, you 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:17.319 just go take care of it yourself, that is inherently anarchistic. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.080 In nature because you're just ignoring the state. You're just 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.120 going and solving the problem yourself. If you if you 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.200 went out and protested that the state needed to provide 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.960 rape crisis centers, you're you're doing the opposite of an 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:38.440 anarchistic direct action in that by protesting, you're petitioning the state, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.360 and by petitioning the state, you're legitimizing its power. You're 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.920 saying you have the power, I'm asking you to use 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.520 it for this. With anarchism, it's like we're not even 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.640 recognizing that you have the power here. We're just gonna 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.960 go do it ourselves. Good luck with your your capitalist 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.600 or communist or whatever experiment. We got this handled ourselves. Yeah, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.880 and there can you can go about it through means 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.600 of non violence or violence. There anarchism or is one 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.600 of those schools of thought where it's it's really all 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.840 over the map, from like violent revolution to hippie communes. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.199 It's really interesting. Yeah, there's definitely like a pacifist um 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:20.439 anarchism for sure. I think that's actually from my understanding, 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:25.560 that's a significant portion of anarchists that think violent anarchism. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.520 Actually it is still around. Like you see the black 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.720 block um at protests, which I read up on that 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.200 that definitely deserves its own episode at some point in time. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.880 But you know, the people wearing like bala clavas and 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:45.000 um or masks of some sort, throwing Molotov cocktails or 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.160 breaking windows are dressed in all black. That's that's actually 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.120 not a group, that's a tactic of protests UM and 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.040 some of them are anarchists, but not all anarchists are 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.720 black block, right, There's a big distinction in that in 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.400 that in that sense, so there are an or kiss 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.000 out there who do believe in violence at least against property, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.920 if not against people, but I really think that they're 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.040 in the minority, and that most anarchists believe in direct 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.640 action just going and doing it yourself or some sort 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.280 of peaceful change um, either within the system or just 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.920 outside of the system. Yeah, And there's a social theorism 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.560 journey Germany named Andreas Vittel, and he said he kind 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.600 of breaks it down into two main groups, which is 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:34.679 social anarchism and libertarian anarchism. Obviously, the libertarian anarchism is 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.040 all about the individual person um and make sure that 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.240 it just kind of takes it down to that person 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.520 level as far as freedom goes even at like the 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.319 expense of society, right where social anarchism is all about 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.640 the society, that's the one that leans more towards socialism 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.480 and communism. Yeah, so that's more. Yeah, that's more like 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.680 creating like a harmonious community that cares for itself, that 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.960 doesn't have any leaders um. The idea behind that is 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:07.000 that organizations will just happen. If you have a need, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.559 people will just come together and solve the need, and 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.320 then the organization will just dissolve as as the need 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.199 is fulfilled. You don't have to create a permanent structure 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.080 to fulfill that need, whether it's there or not, that 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.920 people can be elected into and basically grift from. Yeah, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.000 and not to jump ahead too much, but that whole 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.200 idea is kind of one of the founders of anarchism 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.360 and uh the mid eight hundreds in France, a man 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:37.160 named Pierre Joseph Pruton. That was one of his things 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.000 that he wrote in his book What his Property Is 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.680 That his feeling is that and one of his key 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:48.280 theories is that when this vacuum is created by getting 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.680 rid of the government institutions, it will just sort of 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.600 work itself out right, that people will take care of people, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.400 and that that it's actually the organizations in government and 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.480 the instant threat of violence that is actually the problem, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.640 not that people need to be kept in line by 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.880 those things. It's a radical idea and a big risk 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.600 that it will be like I mean, he even uses 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:17.080 the word spontaneous, like spontaneous order will happen. But again, 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.160 and I'm sorry to keep going back to the same well, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.480 I don't want to use up some of the ones 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.200 down the line, but the rape crisis center is a 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.720 good example of that. There was a need in the 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.640 community and it was fulfilled and there's still a need. 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.640 So there's still around um, but there's nobody getting fat 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.960 and rich off of the rape crisis centers that's sprung 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.760 out of the seventies. Same thing with um uh protecting 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:46.760 uh uh lgbt Q. I think I P is that right? 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.400 I think, yeah, I'm sorry for everybody I'm leaving off there, 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.360 but I definitely know it up to Q for sure. 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.560 UM there there's there's a lot of violence against kids 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.480 like that who have been kicked out of their homes 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.400 and live on the street. So crisis centers have developed 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.960 to take care of them too, So I mean it 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.760 is there is actual, real life things you can point 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.160 to where people do this kind of stuff. There's people 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.640 who work at nonprofit groups. They don't make much money, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.280 but they're there because they're trying to make their society better. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.640 They're trying to make their communities better. Like that's a 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.280 real life example of of what this guy is saying. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.040 What happens spontaneously, it actually does happen. Again, the question, 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:33.800 Chuck is could you administer hundreds of millions of people 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.040 like this? And the answer is probably not. But those 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.960 hundreds of millions of people probably wouldn't be connected in 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.040 any way, shape or form aside from the fact that 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.640 we're all humans. Um, if if there was no larger 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.320 federal government keeping everyone together, or even a state government, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:57.560 you know, they would probably dissolve into hopefully harmonious communal bands. 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:02.720 That's the that's the ideal version of anarchism. See I 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:07.760 think that people would, uh. I think they might dissolve 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.720 into those bands, but I don't know if it would 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.040 be harmonious within the bands, are outside of the bands 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.880 or between them. I think between them. So I totally 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:18.919 agree with you, and I think this is kind of 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.200 an unspoken thing of anarchism at the very least as 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.800 as far as I whittled down to it. It's been unspoken, 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.680 but I'm sure they talk about it a lot. Um. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.639 If you live in an anarchistic society or group or whatever, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.600 like you, you've got to be able to back that up. 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.240 So that doesn't so the impression that I have is 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.440 like that wouldn't mean that you are violent, but they 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:49.120 would be more than willing to defend themselves against outsiders, right. 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.800 And there's actually a group in Chiapas um the Zapatistas, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.560 which was an indigenous Indian movement in Mexico in the 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.919 nineties that's still around today. Them they were so remember 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.560 the guy with the face mask who smoked a pipe, 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.200 Commandante Marcos. He's still at it today. And there are 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:12.080 anarchist villages in Chiapas, Mexico that have been self sufficient 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.000 since the nineties that you would not want to go 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.120 in and mess with them. But they're they're they've got 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.520 it going on. They have equality. There are women who 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.560 are like commanders in their defense forces. Um, they have 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.160 their own schools. They they're set, they're fine, they're doing 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.840 just fine. But they're also heavily armed. Well, I mean, 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.080 did you ever watch the Wild Wild Country documentary? No, 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.120 I still haven't yet. All Right, well, we won't dive 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:44.000 into that, but uh yeah, I don't want to ruin anything. Okay, 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.280 let's take a break, all right, and uh and we'll 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.840 go watch that real quick together. Okay, we'll be back 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.040 in twelve hours and we'll talk about that famous anarchist 0:18:53.040 --> 0:19:07.440 symbol in a bit of history right after this. Alright, dude, So, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:12.040 anyone who's ever owned a skateboard, it's probably scribbled the 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.959 anarchist symbol on their notebook when they were twelve, uh, 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.960 not knowing what it meant. Uh. This has actually only 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.240 been around since about the nineteen sixties, which kind of 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.840 surprised me. Yeah, I guess I I didn't think of 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:27.800 when it would have come up. I guess I assumed 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.640 it was. It just came about the moment I noticed it. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.119 It's like a youngster in the eighties. Uh. First proposed 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.840 by a group called Anarchist Youth of Paris in the 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.399 nineteen sixties. They needed to logo up and that was 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.960 very you know, kind of recognizable. It made sense. Um. 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.480 The black flag is also another symbol of anarchists dating 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.440 back to the nineteenth century. Uh. And of course the 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.560 band Black Flag, that's where they got there. Jam had 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.600 no idea about that one until today or yesterday about 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.200 the band. Yeah. Mean, I knew about Black Flag, but 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.080 I didn't know where they got their name. Yeah, and 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:04.840 you know, I think it means more than that to them. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.800 But they definitely Uh. I don't know if they were 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.080 died in the wall anarchists, but they certainly didn't shy 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.959 away from screaming about it, you know, not at all. 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.000 God bless Henry Rollins. But the point of the black 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.000 flag from what did you say, the eighteen eighties, Yeah, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.280 the point of the black flag was that it was 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.719 meant to be all the colors of all the flags 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.240 in the world. You know, if you put the presence 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.960 of all colors is the color black. Yeah, man, So 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.240 it kind of like melds them all together, and I 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.760 guess discredits all of them by doing that. It absorbs 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.600 them all all those pretty flags just divide us man, 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.800 melts him down. Make it black. You wow, you sound 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.200 just like black Flag, all right. So let's go back 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.879 in time a bit um too. Perhaps the origins of 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:56.480 anarchism and the Chinese philosopher Lao Sue who founded is 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.800 do we say it with a D Taoism? Okay, that's 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.480 what I thought, even though it spelled with the t uh. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.640 And his whole jam was that people live in harmony 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.680 with each other, with nature. That's how we we get 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.560 to happiness, is to live in balance. And of course 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.880 in India, UM the Holy Men there it was espousing 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.520 some of the same philosophies of giving up property for 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.520 spiritual enlightenment. Uh. And then of course Greece you had 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:31.480 philosophers and Greece that would We're not big fans of government, uh, 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.400 interfering with what they had going on, which is interesting 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.800 rights specifically Zeno. Yeah, who is also going to go 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:46.240 on to um colonized Earth? Oh gotcha? X E n 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.159 you Yeah, I know you're just kidding. I knew the X. 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.400 I didn't realize it was a you. I was being 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.800 serious about the think it's I think you might be right, 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.119 but let me check my tattoo of my lower back 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:02.040 because oh yeah it does. Uh so weird? Why is 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.120 it in a whale tale? So? Zeno's whole thing too 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.360 was that if people are good enough, then we don't 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:13.480 even need cops and in courts, which is kind of crazy, 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.320 is it? Though? Well, I mean that's the whole thing 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:20.840 that we were talking about. Like, the whole idea of 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.920 this stuff working out is is not one person breaking bad, 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.600 because as soon as one person does, one person gets 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:35.120 a little taste of power, then it's corrupted. Yeah. Again, though, 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:38.040 I think that comes from the idea that the community 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.360 takes care of itself, police itself. I think the members 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.600 of the community would not be very happy about that, 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:49.520 especially with social anarchism UM, And I don't know what 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:51.679 they would do. I don't know if they would just 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.600 move and leave the guy out or cast them out. 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:56.600 I don't know what you would do in that situation. 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.760 There are a lot of prickly thing like that that 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.320 would that would you could only work out in theory now, 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.359 you know, although maybe it has happened in some of 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:10.040 the experiments that have gone on by now, but I 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:12.800 don't know. But I don't think that it would necessarily 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.560 spoil the whole system. You know. I have a pretty 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.040 dark cynical view of stuff like this. Now. Well, I 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:23.160 think I think i've seen that actually, um, in reference 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:27.320 not your cynical view specifically, but that that if you 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:30.000 do have kind of a dim view of humanity and 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.919 that you know there are we are generally dark and 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:38.240 generally greedy, generally all the bad stuff, then yeah, you 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.720 would probably not think that anarchism would work. But if 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:46.160 you have this idea that humans are genuinely positive, peaceful 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.120 people who just want to like be happy, that if 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.119 you remove these institutions, that would be allowed to shine 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.920 and and a lot of the problems would would come out. 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.640 Like one way I saw it put was um like, yes, 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.760 there's a lot of cheating in under under the capitalist system. 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:06.639 In democracies, it's just about any form of government, cheating 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:13.000 can happen. Right. The writer I was looking into put 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:15.960 it like, what a lot of these people, especially in capitalism, 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:17.880 are forced to do jobs that they don't want to do. 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.000 They spend the hours of their lives doing things they 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.680 don't want to do. How how would that behavior change? 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:27.120