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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, we're coming to Salt Lake City, Utah and Phoenix,

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Speaker 1: Arizona this fall. Yeah, October, we're gonna be at Salt

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Speaker 1: Lake Cities Grand Theater and then the next night October

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Speaker 1: will be in Phoenix. And we added a second show

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Speaker 1: to our Melbourne show, right, that's right, a second earlier

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Speaker 1: show in Melbourne. So you can get all the information

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Speaker 1: for all of these shows at s y s K

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Speaker 1: live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you should Know from

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Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and

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Speaker 1: this is getting to be kind of normal, but it's

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Speaker 1: just us today, everybody. Jerry's fine, she's not in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: She's just checked out. She's not in hospice. No, she's

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Speaker 1: just been busy lately. So everything will be back to

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Speaker 1: normal soon. She she said, Guys, ten years is all

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Speaker 1: you get from me. I know, seriously, kind of since

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Speaker 1: that anniversary she's been just didn't care, checked out. As

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Speaker 1: I said, we're kidding, of course. Ish, but speaking of

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Speaker 1: not issues but is ms, let's talk about anarchism. Chuck, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this one was interesting. I think I pitched this one

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Speaker 1: a long time ago. You never did it for some reason.

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Speaker 1: I think it just probably came at a time when

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Speaker 1: we're we just didn't have enough time to do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, But this this was interesting, um,

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Speaker 1: because anarchism can be a lot of different things. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have the idea that

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Speaker 1: anarchism is anarchy, and that the whole point of it

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Speaker 1: is to just basically demolish all institutions, um, descend into lawlessness,

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Speaker 1: um disorder exactly where you just you just take what

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Speaker 1: you want and you know, you kill somebody and it's

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Speaker 1: fine or whatever. Um, that's not the point of anarchism.

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Speaker 1: That is the definition of anarchy. But anarchy is not

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Speaker 1: what anarchists are actually out for. There's like a couple

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Speaker 1: of threads in there that are the basis of that. Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a complete mischaracterization, but it's just so

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Speaker 1: off base that it might as well just be You

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Speaker 1: might as well just be talking about something totally different. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And there are many many forms that anarchism can take,

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Speaker 1: and there are many schools of thought, um, and there's

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Speaker 1: no way we're going to touch on all of them.

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Speaker 1: But we're gonna We're gonna do what we do, which

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Speaker 1: is a nice overview of some of them. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: our apologies to all anarchists for what we get wrong.

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Speaker 1: But I do want to put a call out. Any

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Speaker 1: follow up info I am totally open for, so send

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Speaker 1: it our way, any corrections anything like that, Yeah, totally So. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are a few things. Like you said, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of different varieties of anarchism, but there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of tenants that any variety of anarchists would agree with, Like,

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Speaker 1: this is the basis of anarchism, right, So anarchism we

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Speaker 1: should say. Also, it's like it's a political thought. It's

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Speaker 1: a philosophical political idea, and the basis of the idea,

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Speaker 1: no matter how you approach it, is that humans are

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Speaker 1: better off governing themselves then they are in creating lasting

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Speaker 1: institutions where they send people to those institutions to make

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Speaker 1: decisions for them. Right. So, the the power structure as

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Speaker 1: it exists is not doing us any vapors. Vapors, it's

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Speaker 1: even worse than favors favors and that a truly free

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Speaker 1: and equal society. And you know it dips into communism

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Speaker 1: and socialism here and there and we'll cover all that,

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Speaker 1: But that is sort of the goal, like you said,

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Speaker 1: just to down with these government authorities and elected officials.

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Speaker 1: It should be run by the people in full. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And I mean it's it's really as simple as that, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the basis of anarchism. That you're you're

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Speaker 1: just you're better off without them, not not that not

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Speaker 1: that they're they even can be good. Most like died

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Speaker 1: in the wool. Anarchists will say, like, no, any artificial

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Speaker 1: institution that's created by humans to govern other humans is

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Speaker 1: necessarily bad. It um creates disorder, it creates chaos, it

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Speaker 1: creates it is run by violence, like they will point

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Speaker 1: out the whole way that the system is kept going

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Speaker 1: is through the threat of violence. Yeah. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: argue with a lot of this, to be honest, totally. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it makes a tremendous amount of sense. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: really there are two things going against anarchism and practice today.

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Speaker 1: One the long standing image that was developed at the

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Speaker 1: end of the nineteenth century and beginning a twentieth century

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Speaker 1: that didn't do it any favors. That the image of

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Speaker 1: the terrorists anarchists, which we'll get to and then um

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Speaker 1: to the fact that there hasn't been any longstanding examples

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Speaker 1: of this to point to. But that's not to say

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Speaker 1: that there aren't examples of actual anarchy or anarchism I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: in practice that have been successful. It's just no one's

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Speaker 1: ever been able to do it, like on a massive

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Speaker 1: national level yet, right, unlike the community scale we've seen

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Speaker 1: it and currently see it. Which we'll get to that

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Speaker 1: stuff too. But um, yeah, you're right, it's it's probably

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Speaker 1: too late with the world as it is not probably

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Speaker 1: there's just no way you could do that today. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who would disagree with you

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, sure right, you're like, okay, go do

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Speaker 1: it and they'll come over when you got it up

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Speaker 1: and running. But the word, a very word, anarchism is

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Speaker 1: Greek and its root anarchia, means without rulers or without authority. Um,

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Speaker 1: but this art, this article is pretty good. Actually he

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Speaker 1: wrote this one, did Kiger pat Patty Kaiger Patrick? Was

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Speaker 1: it Kreiger or Kaiger Tiger? The r is invisible? Okay? Uh?

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Speaker 1: But he points out that the aim is social change,

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Speaker 1: uh at its heart. M hmm. Yeah, that's another good point.

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Speaker 1: I've left that part out, Like that's like, that's all

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Speaker 1: that's ultimately the goal, and the point is it's like

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Speaker 1: you can do all this stuff, you can get all

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Speaker 1: the services that you get allegedly from government institutions, from

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Speaker 1: your friends and neighbors and community, and that that the

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Speaker 1: point of anarchism is to enact that change. Now. Don't

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Speaker 1: wait for it, don't don't like go petition for it,

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Speaker 1: just go do it and constantly be doing it to

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Speaker 1: make your society better. Yeah, and sometimes they'll depending on

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from with your group, there maybe a

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Speaker 1: little environmentalism thrown in, or a little even religion thrown in. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's other philosophy that are co morbid or

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Speaker 1: can become morbid anarchism, like like feminism is one that

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Speaker 1: they pointed out to which one feminism, And I ran

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Speaker 1: across that a lot that that there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that equate feminism and anarchism, as as feminism is

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Speaker 1: just in and of itself a type of anarchism because

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Speaker 1: feminists have a proven track record of just going and

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Speaker 1: doing being the change that they want to see in

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Speaker 1: the world, rather than waiting around for it or asking

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Speaker 1: for it. One example I ran across was um the

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Speaker 1: rape crisis centers of the seventies that sprung up because

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Speaker 1: the establishment just didn't take violence against women very seriously

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Speaker 1: and women set up clinics to handle this themselves. That

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Speaker 1: was a big time feminist move in the seventies. And

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Speaker 1: it is and it's heart, you know, constantly progressing socially.

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Speaker 1: That's an an anarchistic tactic. I guess, well, yeah, and it.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like depending on what um, how where

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Speaker 1: where you lay your head as an anarchist, you might

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Speaker 1: want to concentrate more on h economy. Other people might

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Speaker 1: want to concentrate more on the um, like how to

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Speaker 1: overthrow the authority. UM, I didn't see like it's it's

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Speaker 1: interesting when you look at like like let's say the

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Speaker 1: mutualism school where they're all about the workers controlling their

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Speaker 1: own factories, controlling the land, or the anarcho communist who

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Speaker 1: say no private property for anyone. It's like a big

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Speaker 1: giant commune and no one competes for anything. Like are

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Speaker 1: there are schools of anarchy where they tackle everything? It

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Speaker 1: seems like they're getting very specific. UM. I think because

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Speaker 1: these came out of like the minds of people who

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Speaker 1: had very specific views on this stuff. Right, Like you said,

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Speaker 1: communism and anarchism cross paths here there, and there's even

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Speaker 1: a variety of them combined, UM, because they I mean,

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Speaker 1: they do share some qualities, right, But the the idea

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Speaker 1: of um communism, Okay, let me play it like this.

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Speaker 1: Liberalism is the idea that people should be free and equal.

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Speaker 1: Communism is the idea that people should all have the

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Speaker 1: same access to everything they need, and that it's the

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Speaker 1: state that is meant to support that stuff. With liberalism,

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Speaker 1: it's the state that's meant to make sure everybody is

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Speaker 1: treated equally and everyone is free. Anarchism says, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: totally agree free and equal, we want everybody to have

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Speaker 1: everything that they need, but it's the state that we

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Speaker 1: disagree with you guys on. So that's the real distinction

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Speaker 1: between communism, communism, and liberalism and anarchism is that they

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Speaker 1: all kind of have the same ideal, which is freedom, equality,

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Speaker 1: equal access to everything, resources, that kind of stuff. But

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Speaker 1: whether or not there should be a state or you

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Speaker 1: need a state to to do this is the big

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Speaker 1: distinction between those, UM, And I think that's where the

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Speaker 1: kind of the narrow mindedness comes from on some of these.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, thanks, I think so. Um, when it

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Speaker 1: comes to how to get rid of the current establishment,

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Speaker 1: I guess you would say, Uh, there are many schools

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Speaker 1: of thought on that one. It's called the anarcho syndicalists.

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Speaker 1: And I looked into this a bit more. This I

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Speaker 1: think many modern anarchists find this to be a bit

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Speaker 1: old fashioned. But this is the idea that uh, it's

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Speaker 1: called a direct action system where the labor unions affect

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Speaker 1: the change, and uh, they want to abolish the wage system.

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Speaker 1: And by by direct action, that means sort of what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about at the beginning, which is instead of

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Speaker 1: electing someone, even the head of a labor union to

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Speaker 1: go take care of something, we do it ourselves. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's like direct direct representation or direct democracy, I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: rather than representative democracy. Right. And then there's so another

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Speaker 1: way of putting direct action and is where if you

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Speaker 1: like those rape crisis centers that feminists created in the seventies. Um,

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Speaker 1: if if you go and just create the rape crisis center,

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Speaker 1: as if there's no such thing as the state, you

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Speaker 1: just go take care of it yourself, that is inherently anarchistic.

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Speaker 1: In nature because you're just ignoring the state. You're just

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Speaker 1: going and solving the problem yourself. If you if you

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Speaker 1: went out and protested that the state needed to provide

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Speaker 1: rape crisis centers, you're you're doing the opposite of an

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Speaker 1: anarchistic direct action in that by protesting, you're petitioning the state,

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Speaker 1: and by petitioning the state, you're legitimizing its power. You're

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Speaker 1: saying you have the power, I'm asking you to use

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Speaker 1: it for this. With anarchism, it's like we're not even

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Speaker 1: recognizing that you have the power here. We're just gonna

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Speaker 1: go do it ourselves. Good luck with your your capitalist

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Speaker 1: or communist or whatever experiment. We got this handled ourselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there can you can go about it through means

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Speaker 1: of non violence or violence. There anarchism or is one

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Speaker 1: of those schools of thought where it's it's really all

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Speaker 1: over the map, from like violent revolution to hippie communes.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting. Yeah, there's definitely like a pacifist um

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Speaker 1: anarchism for sure. I think that's actually from my understanding,

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Speaker 1: that's a significant portion of anarchists that think violent anarchism.

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Speaker 1: Actually it is still around. Like you see the black

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Speaker 1: block um at protests, which I read up on that

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Speaker 1: that definitely deserves its own episode at some point in time.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the people wearing like bala clavas and

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Speaker 1: um or masks of some sort, throwing Molotov cocktails or

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Speaker 1: breaking windows are dressed in all black. That's that's actually

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Speaker 1: not a group, that's a tactic of protests UM and

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Speaker 1: some of them are anarchists, but not all anarchists are

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Speaker 1: black block, right, There's a big distinction in that in

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Speaker 1: that in that sense, so there are an or kiss

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Speaker 1: out there who do believe in violence at least against property,

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Speaker 1: if not against people, but I really think that they're

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Speaker 1: in the minority, and that most anarchists believe in direct

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Speaker 1: action just going and doing it yourself or some sort

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Speaker 1: of peaceful change um, either within the system or just

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Speaker 1: outside of the system. Yeah, And there's a social theorism

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Speaker 1: journey Germany named Andreas Vittel, and he said he kind

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Speaker 1: of breaks it down into two main groups, which is

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Speaker 1: social anarchism and libertarian anarchism. Obviously, the libertarian anarchism is

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Speaker 1: all about the individual person um and make sure that

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Speaker 1: it just kind of takes it down to that person

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Speaker 1: level as far as freedom goes even at like the

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Speaker 1: expense of society, right where social anarchism is all about

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Speaker 1: the society, that's the one that leans more towards socialism

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Speaker 1: and communism. Yeah, so that's more. Yeah, that's more like

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Speaker 1: creating like a harmonious community that cares for itself, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't have any leaders um. The idea behind that is

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Speaker 1: that organizations will just happen. If you have a need,

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Speaker 1: people will just come together and solve the need, and

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Speaker 1: then the organization will just dissolve as as the need

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Speaker 1: is fulfilled. You don't have to create a permanent structure

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Speaker 1: to fulfill that need, whether it's there or not, that

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Speaker 1: people can be elected into and basically grift from. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and not to jump ahead too much, but that whole

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Speaker 1: idea is kind of one of the founders of anarchism

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Speaker 1: and uh the mid eight hundreds in France, a man

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Speaker 1: named Pierre Joseph Pruton. That was one of his things

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Speaker 1: that he wrote in his book What his Property Is

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Speaker 1: That his feeling is that and one of his key

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Speaker 1: theories is that when this vacuum is created by getting

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Speaker 1: rid of the government institutions, it will just sort of

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Speaker 1: work itself out right, that people will take care of people,

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Speaker 1: and that that it's actually the organizations in government and

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Speaker 1: the instant threat of violence that is actually the problem,

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Speaker 1: not that people need to be kept in line by

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Speaker 1: those things. It's a radical idea and a big risk

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Speaker 1: that it will be like I mean, he even uses

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Speaker 1: the word spontaneous, like spontaneous order will happen. But again,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sorry to keep going back to the same well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to use up some of the ones

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Speaker 1: down the line, but the rape crisis center is a

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Speaker 1: good example of that. There was a need in the

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Speaker 1: community and it was fulfilled and there's still a need.

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Speaker 1: So there's still around um, but there's nobody getting fat

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Speaker 1: and rich off of the rape crisis centers that's sprung

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Speaker 1: out of the seventies. Same thing with um uh protecting

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Speaker 1: uh uh lgbt Q. I think I P is that right?

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I'm sorry for everybody I'm leaving off there,

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Speaker 1: but I definitely know it up to Q for sure.

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Speaker 1: UM there there's there's a lot of violence against kids

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Speaker 1: like that who have been kicked out of their homes

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Speaker 1: and live on the street. So crisis centers have developed

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Speaker 1: to take care of them too, So I mean it

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Speaker 1: is there is actual, real life things you can point

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Speaker 1: to where people do this kind of stuff. There's people

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Speaker 1: who work at nonprofit groups. They don't make much money,

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Speaker 1: but they're there because they're trying to make their society better.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to make their communities better. Like that's a

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Speaker 1: real life example of of what this guy is saying.

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Speaker 1: What happens spontaneously, it actually does happen. Again, the question,

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Speaker 1: Chuck is could you administer hundreds of millions of people

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Speaker 1: like this? And the answer is probably not. But those

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Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of people probably wouldn't be connected in

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Speaker 1: any way, shape or form aside from the fact that

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Speaker 1: we're all humans. Um, if if there was no larger

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Speaker 1: federal government keeping everyone together, or even a state government,

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Speaker 1: you know, they would probably dissolve into hopefully harmonious communal bands.

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Speaker 1: That's the that's the ideal version of anarchism. See I

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Speaker 1: think that people would, uh. I think they might dissolve

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Speaker 1: into those bands, but I don't know if it would

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Speaker 1: be harmonious within the bands, are outside of the bands

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Speaker 1: or between them. I think between them. So I totally

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Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think this is kind of

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Speaker 1: an unspoken thing of anarchism at the very least as

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Speaker 1: as far as I whittled down to it. It's been unspoken,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure they talk about it a lot. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you live in an anarchistic society or group or whatever,

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Speaker 1: like you, you've got to be able to back that up.

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Speaker 1: So that doesn't so the impression that I have is

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Speaker 1: like that wouldn't mean that you are violent, but they

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Speaker 1: would be more than willing to defend themselves against outsiders, right.

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Speaker 1: And there's actually a group in Chiapas um the Zapatistas,

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Speaker 1: which was an indigenous Indian movement in Mexico in the

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Speaker 1: nineties that's still around today. Them they were so remember

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Speaker 1: the guy with the face mask who smoked a pipe,

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Speaker 1: Commandante Marcos. He's still at it today. And there are

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Speaker 1: anarchist villages in Chiapas, Mexico that have been self sufficient

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Speaker 1: since the nineties that you would not want to go

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Speaker 1: in and mess with them. But they're they're they've got

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Speaker 1: it going on. They have equality. There are women who

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Speaker 1: are like commanders in their defense forces. Um, they have

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Speaker 1: their own schools. They they're set, they're fine, they're doing

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Speaker 1: just fine. But they're also heavily armed. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: did you ever watch the Wild Wild Country documentary? No,

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Speaker 1: I still haven't yet. All Right, well, we won't dive

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Speaker 1: into that, but uh yeah, I don't want to ruin anything. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's take a break, all right, and uh and we'll

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Speaker 1: go watch that real quick together. Okay, we'll be back

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Speaker 1: in twelve hours and we'll talk about that famous anarchist

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Speaker 1: symbol in a bit of history right after this. Alright, dude, So,

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Speaker 1: anyone who's ever owned a skateboard, it's probably scribbled the

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Speaker 1: anarchist symbol on their notebook when they were twelve, uh,

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Speaker 1: not knowing what it meant. Uh. This has actually only

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Speaker 1: been around since about the nineteen sixties, which kind of

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Speaker 1: surprised me. Yeah, I guess I I didn't think of

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Speaker 1: when it would have come up. I guess I assumed

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Speaker 1: it was. It just came about the moment I noticed it.

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Speaker 1: It's like a youngster in the eighties. Uh. First proposed

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Speaker 1: by a group called Anarchist Youth of Paris in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. They needed to logo up and that was

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Speaker 1: very you know, kind of recognizable. It made sense. Um.

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Speaker 1: The black flag is also another symbol of anarchists dating

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteenth century. Uh. And of course the

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Speaker 1: band Black Flag, that's where they got there. Jam had

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Speaker 1: no idea about that one until today or yesterday about

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Speaker 1: the band. Yeah. Mean, I knew about Black Flag, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't know where they got their name. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it means more than that to them.

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Speaker 1: But they definitely Uh. I don't know if they were

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Speaker 1: died in the wall anarchists, but they certainly didn't shy

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Speaker 1: away from screaming about it, you know, not at all.

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Speaker 1: God bless Henry Rollins. But the point of the black

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Speaker 1: flag from what did you say, the eighteen eighties, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the point of the black flag was that it was

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Speaker 1: meant to be all the colors of all the flags

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Speaker 1: in the world. You know, if you put the presence

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Speaker 1: of all colors is the color black. Yeah, man, So

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Speaker 1: it kind of like melds them all together, and I

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Speaker 1: guess discredits all of them by doing that. It absorbs

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Speaker 1: them all all those pretty flags just divide us man,

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Speaker 1: melts him down. Make it black. You wow, you sound

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Speaker 1: just like black Flag, all right. So let's go back

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Speaker 1: in time a bit um too. Perhaps the origins of

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Speaker 1: anarchism and the Chinese philosopher Lao Sue who founded is

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Speaker 1: do we say it with a D Taoism? Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: what I thought, even though it spelled with the t uh.

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Speaker 1: And his whole jam was that people live in harmony

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Speaker 1: with each other, with nature. That's how we we get

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Speaker 1: to happiness, is to live in balance. And of course

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Speaker 1: in India, UM the Holy Men there it was espousing

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Speaker 1: some of the same philosophies of giving up property for

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Speaker 1: spiritual enlightenment. Uh. And then of course Greece you had

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Speaker 1: philosophers and Greece that would We're not big fans of government, uh,

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Speaker 1: interfering with what they had going on, which is interesting

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Speaker 1: rights specifically Zeno. Yeah, who is also going to go

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Speaker 1: on to um colonized Earth? Oh gotcha? X E n

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Speaker 1: you Yeah, I know you're just kidding. I knew the X.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was a you. I was being

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Speaker 1: serious about the think it's I think you might be right,

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Speaker 1: but let me check my tattoo of my lower back

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Speaker 1: because oh yeah it does. Uh so weird? Why is

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Speaker 1: it in a whale tale? So? Zeno's whole thing too

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Speaker 1: was that if people are good enough, then we don't

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Speaker 1: even need cops and in courts, which is kind of crazy,

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Speaker 1: is it? Though? Well, I mean that's the whole thing

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Speaker 1: that we were talking about. Like, the whole idea of

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Speaker 1: this stuff working out is is not one person breaking bad,

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Speaker 1: because as soon as one person does, one person gets

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Speaker 1: a little taste of power, then it's corrupted. Yeah. Again, though,

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Speaker 1: I think that comes from the idea that the community

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Speaker 1: takes care of itself, police itself. I think the members

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Speaker 1: of the community would not be very happy about that,

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Speaker 1: especially with social anarchism UM, And I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they would do. I don't know if they would just

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Speaker 1: move and leave the guy out or cast them out.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you would do in that situation.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of prickly thing like that that

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Speaker 1: would that would you could only work out in theory now,

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Speaker 1: you know, although maybe it has happened in some of

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Speaker 1: the experiments that have gone on by now, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know. But I don't think that it would necessarily

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Speaker 1: spoil the whole system. You know. I have a pretty

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Speaker 1: dark cynical view of stuff like this. Now. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think I think i've seen that actually, um, in reference

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Speaker 1: not your cynical view specifically, but that that if you

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Speaker 1: do have kind of a dim view of humanity and

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Speaker 1: that you know there are we are generally dark and

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Speaker 1: generally greedy, generally all the bad stuff, then yeah, you

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Speaker 1: would probably not think that anarchism would work. But if

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Speaker 1: you have this idea that humans are genuinely positive, peaceful

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Speaker 1: people who just want to like be happy, that if

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Speaker 1: you remove these institutions, that would be allowed to shine

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Speaker 1: and and a lot of the problems would would come out.

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Speaker 1: Like one way I saw it put was um like, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of cheating in under under the capitalist system.

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Speaker 1: In democracies, it's just about any form of government, cheating

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Speaker 1: can happen. Right. The writer I was looking into put

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Speaker 1: it like, what a lot of these people, especially in capitalism,

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Speaker 1: are forced to do jobs that they don't want to do.

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Speaker 1: They spend the hours of their lives doing things they

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Speaker 1: don't want to do. How how would that behavior change?

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Speaker 1: How would their personality change? If it was just like,

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Speaker 1: go do whatever you want to do, man, no one's

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Speaker 1: telling you what to do. Go learn to farm and

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Speaker 1: make your own food, or go learn to juggle for

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Speaker 1: money and buy food. Who cares? Go do it? Would

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Speaker 1: that person cheat other people anymore. I I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here's my thing. I don't want I don't want to

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Speaker 1: because I am a pretty positive person. Sure I know

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Speaker 1: you are, um, and I do think that people are

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Speaker 1: mostly good and you could probably assemble a pretty great

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Speaker 1: community by and large. But it doesn't take many, is

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Speaker 1: my whole deal of Like you get two or three

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Speaker 1: people in there and it starts to sour and they

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Speaker 1: get a little power grab and they talk another person

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Speaker 1: or two into it, and then that ruins it. So

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Speaker 1: I think an unpleasant minority could spoil it for a

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Speaker 1: group of otherwise, uh, you know, just delightful anarchist, right,

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Speaker 1: the happy kind right? So um, okay, so back to history. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but because I think, well, we could have this conversation

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Speaker 1: like five more times and we're still going to arrive

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Speaker 1: at the same point. Like we just we just don't know,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what what would happen. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: what you're describing is the beginning of a civil war

424
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: in the middle in this little community. Yeah you know. Alright, So,

425
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: so like you said, back to history, we made it

426
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: as far as knew, and Zeno specifically, who basically was

427
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 1: the first one to at least elucidate the ideas behind anarchism,

428
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: which was maybe we don't need the state, maybe we're

429
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: better off without it, right, And then not a lot

430
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: happened until this seventeenth century. Yeah, and this is a

431
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: classic case of what did you expect to happen? When

432
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: in England these peasant farmers got a collective together. They

433
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: called themselves the diggers, and they said, not the duggers,

434
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: And they said, we are tired of this, uh, all

435
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: the turmoil that's going on here. We have a civil

436
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: war going on, and we're gonna try and live without

437
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: the government, and we're going to cultivate our own land

438
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: and start our own kind of radical group out here.

439
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: This guy named Gerard wind Stanley who was the founder.

440
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: He was a Christian radical, and he put out a

441
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: pamphlet in sixty nine called Truth lifting up its head

442
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: above scandals and talked about power corrupting property and compatible

443
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: with liberty, all the kind of hallmarks of anarchism. And

444
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: what happens The community gets larger and larger, and then

445
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the government and says whoa whoa, whoa, whoa whoa rush

446
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: that we can't have this at all, and that's what happened.

447
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: The government, the landowners. They yeah, and they they said,

448
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: you guys can't camp together anymore, go away, And the

449
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: diggers they disassembled. Um, we've seen it in our own

450
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 1: country anytime. Oh yeah. And I'm not gonna argue for

451
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: the virtues of branch Davidians or uh preppers like at

452
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: Ruby Ridge. But if there's one thing our government doesn't

453
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 1: like is people kind of hold up in their own

454
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: trying to do their own thing with it. Then they

455
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: have guns, right, they don't even like it when they

456
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: don't have guns. And look at Zukkati Park. Yeah, like

457
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: they were. They were basically flaunting urban camping laws and

458
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: they came in with the cops and riot gear and

459
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: busted the place up. Like they don't. These experiments, they

460
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: at least in the US and in a lot of

461
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: Europe too, they they experiments in an anarchism don't have

462
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: a very long lasting effect because they do tend to

463
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: attract a lot of followers, especially when they rise up

464
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: as they tend to when the ruling class is really

465
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: squeezing the working class. Um, when the when the conditions

466
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: that you know, the part of the whole reason we

467
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: live with the government, at least initially was because there

468
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: was that social contract, right, I'm gonna give up a

469
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: little bit of my liberty. I'm gonna give up a

470
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: little bit of my freedom, uh, in return for all

471
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: these services and protections that the government affords. Well, when

472
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: the government kind of stops giving you all that stuff

473
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: it's supposed to give and return for you giving up

474
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: your freedom and your liberty, you start rethinking how much

475
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: freedom and liberty you want to give up. And as

476
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: a result, when anarchists come along and start telling you, hey, man,

477
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: there's another way. Try changing your mind to think like this,

478
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 1: it gets kind of popular, and so as a result

479
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: of state comes crashing down on it and says, no,

480
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: stop talking about that. Everybody go to jail. Well yeah,

481
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean that's why you have and we'll talk a

482
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: bit more about this. But things like the battle in

483
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: Seattle and occupy Wall Street. Who I don't know if

484
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: they do they are they registered anarchists? Do they have

485
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: their little cards? They had a lot of anarchists um

486
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: stuff going on, and there are plenty of anarchists there,

487
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: but I think they were so anarchists that they wouldn't

488
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: even say that they were anarchists, that would be too

489
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: much of a label. That's funny. I'm not making fun

490
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: of them, just you know. Uh So the diggers might

491
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: have been squashed. But about a hundred years a hundred

492
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: and twenty years later in England, those ideas sort of

493
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: lived on with an English philosopher named William Godwin who

494
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: once again someone rises up, probably stands on that little

495
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: box in Hyde Park and says that the government is

496
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: corrupt inherently, they are a bad influence, and we need

497
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: a decentralized society. And his whole idea was small, little,

498
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: small autonomous communities, which to me makes a little bit

499
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: more sense than trying to like win the world over, right, right, Yeah,

500
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: And he was the first one to really write down

501
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: like anarchist thought, right Godwin, Uh was he? From what

502
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: I understand, if Zeno wasn't, this guy was really the

503
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: first one, not necessarily the first to practice it, but

504
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: he was the first one to start writing down the

505
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: tenants of anarchism. But it wasn't until that guy Pierre

506
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: Joseph Prudon who you mentioned earlier, came along about fifties

507
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: sixty seventy years after Goodwin or Godwin um that they

508
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: for the world's first self proclaimed anarchist came along. Yeah,

509
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: and he came. He interestingly, he came from a very

510
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: poor family of peasants and won a scholarship to study

511
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: in Paris, so he had a little bit of his

512
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: feet in both worlds. When he wrote his book what

513
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: is Are you going to read the French versions appropriate?

514
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: What is property? Which in which is contained? The very

515
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: famous still with anarchist line, property is theft uh? And

516
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: that was one of the big catch phrases, And it's

517
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: still a big catch phrase with with the anarchism anarchist groups. Yes,

518
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: it's frequently a punchline and anarchist jokes. And I said property,

519
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: property is theft uh. And he was the one that

520
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that he sort of had this radical

521
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: idea that if the government leaves um, spontaneous order would

522
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: would come about? Would it just emerge? So he also

523
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: he was he did believe that property was theft, but

524
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: too prudon. There was a distinction between say, um, somebody

525
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: owning their own plot of land that they cultivated, owning

526
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: their own home, owning something like that. He had a

527
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: big problem with people owning the things that workers used

528
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: to make wealth from right people extracting wealth from the

529
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: work of others and not actually doing anything themselves, which

530
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: is the current system that we live in now. It's

531
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: called neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is just basically using all the power

532
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: of the state, or a significant portion of it, to

533
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: further the interests of corporations of the people who extract

534
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: wealth from the people who actually produced the work. That's

535
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: neoliberalism at court. That also deserves its own episode from

536
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: us someday. And that was what Prudon, although this was

537
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: the word wasn't coined at the time, but that was

538
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: what he really had an issue with, and what basically

539
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: anyone even remotely anarchistic, has a problem with his neoliberalism. Yeah,

540
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: and he buddied up with a couple of important figures,

541
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: historical figures. One Karl Marx, who at the time was

542
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: just just a little German economists trying to make good.

543
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: He was not yet the father of communism. And then

544
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: another guy named Mikhail Bakunin, who was a disciple of

545
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: prudence but was also an anarchist. And he was different

546
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: in that he came actually from nobility in Russia, and

547
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: he was one of these who wanted to leave his

548
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: privilege behind. Yeah, he definitely walked the walk for sure.

549
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: Like he said, so long life of privilege. I'm going

550
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: to become an anarchist anarchy. Yeah he did, but um,

551
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: he is where anarchy takes a very dark turn. It's

552
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't fully vested in him, but it, Um, it

553
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: definitely began with him because he was the guy who

554
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: basically said and he ended up splitting from I think

555
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: Prudon and Marx definitely marks. He was the guy that said, um,

556
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: there's only one way to to get this going, and

557
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: that is you have to smash the state. The state

558
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: is not going to give up its power. These bureaucrats

559
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: aren't going to be like you know what, you guys

560
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: are right. The people who own the capital aren't going

561
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: to give up their position, their wealth. It's just not

562
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: gonna happen, right, And the only way to deal with

563
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: this is to basically wage war against the current system

564
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: and then replace it with an anarchist system. And he

565
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: he definitely diverged from Prudon and Mars. I believe he's

566
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: a little more closely tied to Mars, so its Prudon

567
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: that he really diverged from in that respect. Yeah. Prudon

568
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: was the one that was like, hey, like, little by little,

569
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: we can just shift away from this government in a

570
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: gradual sense, right, And Bacuna was like, no, we need

571
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: to go and stomp in there and smash it with violence. Right.

572
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: Prudon was like, well, wait, let's all just smoke some

573
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: grass and talk this out. Uh yeah, yeah. But Counan

574
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: definitely had a little more. He was a little more

575
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: aligned with Marx because in the eighteen sixties they were

576
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: co founders of the first International working Men's Association association

577
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: that uh they tried with their jam was they wanted

578
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: to free workers uh in European countries from what they

579
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: considered to be exploitation, low ages, bad conditions, stuff like that. Again,

580
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: like the ruling class squeezing the working class, and anarchism

581
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: suddenly starts to get a lot more followers, and that

582
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: was a real big problem, um, at least for the

583
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: power in the West. In Europe and the United States,

584
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: anarchism got really popular for a little while, and specifically

585
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: the branch espoused by Bakunin and then later on after

586
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: he died, his follower Peter krop Cropokin. I think I

587
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: nailed that. Yeah, that was um really took up this

588
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: violent basically terrorism. There's no other word for it, um

589
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: anarchist terrorism. It was the tactic they took on. And uh,

590
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: Cropokin said, you could with a single attack make more

591
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: propaganda than a thousand pamphlets. And the whole point was

592
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: to start bombing everything, just just destroy the state by

593
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: creating foemen in chaos. And it was a really bad

594
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: time to just be the average person walking around America

595
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: Europe because you might get blown up by a bomb

596
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: that somebody planted on Wall Street or something like that. Yeah,

597
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: and actually, you're kind of right. I see now that

598
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: after they established that International Workingmen's Association, Bacuna and Marx

599
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: eventually clashed and sort of their ideas diverged as well.

600
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: So but but I think you were right. It wasn't

601
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: necessarily the violence thing. It was Marks thought that you

602
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 1: had to have this very strong state to control everything

603
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: and distribute it equally among people. And Bakunin was like,

604
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: you're nuts, Marks, You're nuts. Yeah, should we take another break? Sure?

605
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: All right, Well we're gonna travel state side right after this. Alright, So,

606
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: like I said, anarchism is starting to get a lot

607
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: of followers. But it's at like the most dangerous violent

608
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: period in the history of anarchism, and it like really

609
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: had a big effect, Chuck, Like it was very much

610
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: died in the wold terrorism, bomb making, bomb throwing, um

611
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: rioting assassinations. Yeah, get this, In less than ten years,

612
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: anarchists killed the President of the United States, the President

613
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: of France, the Prime Minister of Spain, the King of Italy,

614
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: and the Empress of Austria Hungary in ten years. Like

615
00:37:53,160 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: that's just unimaginable. Um, And so the state quite understandably said, um,

616
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: we're going to crack it out on you anarchists, and

617
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: the United States in particular was was successful with the

618
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: earliest by jail ing um anarchists, jailing immigrants. They really

619
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: overreached and said, you know a lot of anarchists are immigrants,

620
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: so he's gonna start jailing immigrants that we even suspect

621
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: their anarchists. Um. There was a riot previous to that

622
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century in Chicago, the Haymarket, right, the

623
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: very famous one. Yeah, the uh man, this has got

624
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: a lot of tangential shows. We maybe should do one

625
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: on the Haymarket affair in general, but this cops came

626
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: in to break up a meeting and anarchists meeting in

627
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: Chicago and Haymarket Square. A bomb was thrown. Uh, there

628
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: were riots that happened. Six cops and a bunch of

629
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: other people died. And even though they never fingered the

630
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: actual bomb thrower, they just went in there and basically said,

631
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: all right, you eight are very prominent anarchists, so we're

632
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: going to convict you all of this murder. Of these

633
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: murders and um, I believe there was what four of

634
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: them were actually hanged, Yeah, and it was that was

635
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: just completely corrupt justice wise, like those guys were ever

636
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: Actually they had not thrown a bomb, they hadn't created

637
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: a bomb. They were they were just scapegoats that were

638
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: hung because they were anarchist leaders. And they think that

639
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: probably it was a paid agent provocateur from the other side,

640
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: possibly like one of the pinkered and detectives who were

641
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: also super active. That is the I don't know if

642
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: it's the predominant view, but I've heard that plenty of places.

643
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Um that that is a real possibility, that it wasn't

644
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: even an anarchist, that this was an anarchist meeting and

645
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: this gave them the cops of reason to break it up.

646
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: It was the antifa. Uh, and then you talked about it.

647
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: President William McKinley was assassinated by anarchist Lee on Oh,

648
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: I would say, zol goes that's pretty good. Goes are

649
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: uh silent se z O l g O s z uh.

650
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: We'll just call him Leon and uh, yeah, he assassinated McKinley.

651
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: He he went to go and again he was another immigrant.

652
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: And it's of course they shouldn't have rounded up immigrants,

653
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: but it is interesting and that most of these major anarchists,

654
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: prominent anarchists, were immigrants. But of course it was a

655
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: time of immigrants too, for sure, so that has a

656
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: lot to do with it. But he went to meet

657
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: McKinley and like a public thing where there was like

658
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: a greeting line, and had a pistol in his hand

659
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: covered with a hanky, and McKinley reached out shake his hand.

660
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: He shot him once and it ricocheted off his coat button.

661
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: Shot him again and it lodged in his stomach. And

662
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: as everyone I don't know much about McKinley, but as

663
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: everyone like descended a on this Leon guy McKinley said,

664
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: go easy on them boys. Oh really wow. Yeah, and

665
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: he died of infection from the gunshot women. I think

666
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: less than a week or maybe nine days later, and

667
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: Leon was executed in short order. Yeah, and that's electric chair.

668
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: And I imagine it's not like modern day electric chairs

669
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: are great, but I imagine when a nineteen o one

670
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: was pretty brutal. I would guess, so five vaults for

671
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: five hours. Yeah, I know it took three zapps to

672
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: get them. So although I would guess, actually it's probably

673
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: it's probably even faster, I don't know. I could see

674
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: it going either way. Like back then they were just like,

675
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: well this we executed an elephant, so let's just use

676
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: that amount, right exactly, And it would just sometimes go

677
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: off by itself. Right. So there was one other thing

678
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: I want to point out. There was a steel strike

679
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: that you and I have talked about before. It was

680
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: in Homestead, Pennsylvania. And I don't remember what episode been

681
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: in the unions. Yeah, I'll bet it was because it

682
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: was a U. It was there were unions striking. And

683
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: remember there's like that whole anarchost syndicalism, which is basically

684
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: like using unions as the source of anarchist power. There

685
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: was one of these strikes going on and the Pinkerton's

686
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: showed up for that one. It was definitely Pinkerton's and

687
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: they killed like eight striking workers. So an anarchist named

688
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 1: Um Alexander Berkman shot the I don't even he wasn't

689
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: even the owner of the steel mill, I don't think.

690
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: But he was an industrialist, Henry Clay Frick, and he

691
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: was um executed, I believe. But aside from assassinating Frick,

692
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: he had the distinction of being the love interest of

693
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: another prominent anarchist, a much more prominent anarchist named Emma Goldman,

694
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: who we would be remiss not to mention. She was

695
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: an early feminist anarchist pioneer writer who was just a

696
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: just really laid a lot of stuff out. Her writings

697
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: are collected on the internet. But she was also UM

698
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: very much involved in the early movement are um female

699
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: controlled birth control? Oh interesting, yeah, which I don't think

700
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: she made an appearance in that episode, but we uh,

701
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: we definitely you can't talk about anarchy without mentioning Emma Goldman.

702
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: So she and Berkman were uh an anarchist power couple.

703
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: Pretty much. They were the Branchilina. Yeah they were, Is

704
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: that still think? No? No, no, they were the Tristan

705
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: Thompson and Chloe Kardashian of anarchisting him. Um. We we

706
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: also should mention Sacco and Benzetti. Uh, this was in

707
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, the too immigrant anarchists from Italy, Nicola Sako

708
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: and Bartolomeo Voncetti. They were they were for sure anarchist,

709
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: but they were by all accounts, wrongfully convicted of killing

710
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: a payroll clerk and a guard at a robbery in Braintree, Massachusetts.

711
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: In n and Um, this was a very big deal.

712
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: It was. I mean, I think like in nineteen twenty

713
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: h or maybe it was just after Nyod people went

714
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: to Boston Commons two in protest, and that's that's a

715
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: lot of folks in nineteen twenty to gather in support

716
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: of these two like anarchists, immigrants who people feel like

717
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: it didn't get a fair shake. Yeah. Well supposedly even

718
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: before they were convicted. The guy who was there when

719
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: it happened confessed to it and he was part of

720
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: I think the Morelli gang, a mafia group that had

721
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: actually carried out this crime. It was just that the

722
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: officials in this this area were like, we want to

723
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: get rid of these two anarchists. We'll just pin this

724
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: on them and execute them. And that's what happened. And

725
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: there was a huge that's just in Massachusetts. Bombs went

726
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: off in New York, Paris, Buenos Aires, UH in protests

727
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: of this execution, but the government was like, what are

728
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: you gonna do. They're dead now, yeah, executed UM. Many

729
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 1: years later, Michael Dukakis is a Belief governor of Massachusetts. Finally,

730
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: UH tried to try to right that wrong historically by

731
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: driving a tank down the highway in their honor. That's funny,

732
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: So chuck Um. The anarchism kind of died out there,

733
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: at least the very violent terrorist branch of anarchism died

734
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: out around this time in the twenties. A little before that,

735
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: it kept going actually fairly peacefully for a while in Spain,

736
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: and there were anarchists UM villages all over Spain right

737
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: before the Civil War. And the Civil War was the fascists,

738
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 1: who had assembled in Morocco and were supported by Hitler

739
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: and Mussolini, came pouring into Spain and managed to overrun

740
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: the anarchists. During the Spanish Spanish Civil War, so the

741
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: fascist one. They had a lot of help um again

742
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: from Hitler and Mussolini, and the Franco um regime took

743
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: over Spain. But for a little while there anarchists them,

744
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: not the violent kind, but the peaceful communal kind of

745
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: anarchism had been successful in Spain for a little while. Yeah,

746
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: And then years later in the United States in the

747
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, the whole counterculture sort of brought back, uh,

748
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: at least some of the ideas of anarchism, if not

749
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 1: outright anarchism through activism and even one of the groups,

750
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: a hippie activist group was called. They called themselves the

751
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: Diggers after that group from England. Um. The Anarchist Cookbook,

752
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: of course, came out in the early nineteen seventies, very famous, legendary,

753
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: infamous even cookbook. They gave recipes on like how to

754
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: make bombs and weapons and stuff, how to make drugs

755
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: from toothpaste. Yeah, all kinds of cool stuff. And you

756
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: know you've ever been to college. Someone at one point

757
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: was like, man, yeah, get the Anarchist Cookbook. Check this out.

758
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: We'll smoke some grass and read the Anarchist cook Book.

759
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: I was like you say grass like it's sixties seven.

760
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: I don't even think it was hip in sixty seven.

761
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: I think dork's have always said crass. But the guy

762
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: who wrote it, William Powell, said um later on, he

763
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: renounced all of it, tried to get it taken out

764
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: of print. But the publisher, of course, is like, you

765
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: don't know these rights, which is still making money on it?

766
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: That chuck is an anarchist nightmare. Sure it happened to this,

767
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: William under the thumb of like an organization making money

768
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: off of something you don't believe in anymore, right, But

769
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: that was originally your idea and your work. It's just

770
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: I'll bet that guy hasn't slept since. Uh. And of course,

771
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: once the Internet was born, some of these ideas started

772
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 1: coming back up because all of a sudden information could

773
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: be exchanged so freely, and um, people on the outskirts

774
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: of on the fringes of society who felt like they

775
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: didn't quite fit in and wanted to be an anarchist

776
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: could get in the chat room. Well well yeah, some

777
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: of them, But I mean that's that, you know, there's

778
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: a mistaking painting them with that brush like they're definitely normal.

779
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: People who you would not suspect their anarchists that are

780
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: actually anarchists. They have those views. They again they like

781
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: work in nonprofits, They work in the rape crisis centers. Um.

782
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: They that's what they do with their life. They um

783
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: they use old computer monitors rather than buying like the

784
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: latest one or anything like that. There's just like a

785
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: lot of different, I guess, lifestyle choices you can make

786
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: that are actually anarchistic within the larger society. And I

787
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: think there's a lot more people doing that than than

788
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: one might suspect. And again, it is, like you said,

789
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: in large part, because the Internet makes it so easy

790
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: to to go find these other ideas, and it's so

791
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: frequently and I think this is why I really enjoyed

792
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: researching this episode so much. It's so easy on the

793
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: Internet to go find a different way of thinking. There's

794
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: something really joy in finding a way of thinking that

795
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: you've never really thought about before, or seeing the same

796
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: things but in a totally different light. That's just probably

797
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: the greatest gift the Internet has given us. And and

798
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: this is this definitely falls within that that UM list. Well, yeah,

799
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: I mean some people say even that, like the rewilding

800
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: movement and living off grid at its heart is anarchistic. Yeah,

801
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: Aim and Bundy and his whole crew, they very much

802
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: denied being anarchists, but they were totally anarchists and still are.

803
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: They were one of the successful ones. Yeah. I mean,

804
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: there's probably a there's something attached to that word that

805
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: I could see some groups not wanting to be associated with.

806
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: But when they describe it, they're like, no, we're not anarchists.

807
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: We just like I want to live out here by

808
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: ourselves and hunt and gather and growing stuff and not

809
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: have a government over me telling me what to do.

810
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, you're anarchists, right, I just want to

811
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: reuse my oh an old computer monitor. Right, you're an

812
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: an anarchist, sorry, pal. Yeah. And then famously, also again

813
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: as we mentioned before, Zukkati Park and Occupy Wall Street

814
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: taking over um that park and just setting up basically

815
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: an anarchist commune. And it wasn't just anarchists. There are

816
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: a lot of protests, are a lot of different groups

817
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: with a lot of different agendas. But like they refused

818
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: to centralize, they refused to elect leadership um and that

819
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean is at its core anarchy. Like they said,

820
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: our core our core tenant is anarchism, so it was

821
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: an anarchist experiment at least. And there's a really good

822
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: article in Al Jazera called Occupy Wall Streets Anarchist Roots.

823
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: It's by a guy named David Graber, who is an

824
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: anthropologist but he's also personally an anarchist, and he's really

825
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: easy to read, uh, and really does a great job

826
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: of putting out like what anarchism is. And that's a

827
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: that was one of the better ones I found of his.

828
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: So check that one out for sure. All Right. So

829
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: we've kick this around between each other here whether or

830
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: not this could work. But smarter people than us actually

831
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: put thought into this stuff and they write books on

832
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 1: it and articles in the Atlantic on it and stuff

833
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,399
Speaker 1: like that. Um. And there are some examples you can

834
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: point to, because like you said, you can't really you

835
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: can't point to any large scale examples of this. You

836
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: can point to like small communities, for instance, in Denmark.

837
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: I've heard of this before, uh, Christiana. It's not a person,

838
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 1: but it's a place. It is an eight four acre

839
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: um some say utopia within Copenhagen that kind of popped

840
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: up in ninete when a bunch of squatters and hippie

841
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: artists who like to smoke grass took over some abandoned

842
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: buildings on a military base that was no longer in use,

843
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: said this is a free zone. We're not under your

844
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: authority den more Mark, uh, and more and more people came,

845
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 1: and because it's Denmark, forty seven years later, it's still

846
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: around and the government did not squash it. In fact,

847
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: the government said, you know when, why don't we just

848
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: sell you that land and they for below market value

849
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: and they were like great, yeah, so they took him

850
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: up on it, and there's now Christiana is a free

851
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: anarchist zone within Denmark. Could you imagine this happening happening

852
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: in the United States. No? And I think that's a

853
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: really good point, Chuck, because Denmark is known as the

854
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 1: model of representative liberal democracy, so they're like close enough

855
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: to the cusp of anarchism anyway that yeah, it could

856
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: happen in Denmark. But no, I like, that's that's not

857
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: going to happen in the United States. I wonder if

858
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: Danish government officials were like, geez, I don't know if

859
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: this is the best idea, but everyone's looking at us

860
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: and we are Denmark, right, we kind of have to.

861
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: Everyone's looking at us unless someone says no. Is anyone

862
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: gonna say no on record? Alright, fine, okay, fine, just

863
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: give us some money for it. Okay. Forty seven years later,

864
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: they finally spoke up. I'd like to check it out, man,

865
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: I bet you that's a fun place to go. Hang.

866
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's pretty cool, and I'm sure, um it

867
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: said there's everything's covered in murals and everything all. But

868
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: that's pretty great. Um. One of the one of the

869
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: things that I found kind of interesting from this article

870
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: that was Somalia. Yeah, that actually serves as a an

871
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: argument for both sides of the coin, right, Like, a

872
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: lot of people point to Somalia and say, look, there's

873
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: your example of what happens when you don't have a

874
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: state running things. Because Somali's government collapse in and it

875
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: was never replaced. There's like local warlords, there's pirates, there's um,

876
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: there's extremists, there's religious extremists, um. And then there's also

877
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: I think clans and tribes and communities and groups living

878
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: in peace, and you you can actually point to the

879
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: living conditions today and say there are factors that are

880
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: better than it was before. Somalia's government collapsed. So yeah,

881
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Sister's pirates, there's warlords, but there

882
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: are also like a lower infomortality rate. Um, the life

883
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: expectancy is longer than it was before the government collapsed. Uh,

884
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: there's more access to sanitation. And so if you're an anarchist,

885
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: you would point to this and say, actually, Somalia has

886
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that people can take care of

887
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: themselves without the government. That that there's the anarchism isn't

888
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: across the board worse than any government at all. That

889
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: there are some governments that are worse than no government,

890
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: and Somali is a pretty good example of that. Yeah,

891
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: because in Somalia's case that it was a corrupt dictator

892
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: in place, so conde ss were just abhorrent. Conditions still

893
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: aren't great. It's not like everyone's packing up to move

894
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: to Somalia. But like you said, there are literal facts

895
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: and figures that show that it is better than it

896
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: was in some ways under under this dictatorship, at least

897
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: really interesting. Do you got anything else? Uh, well, we

898
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: should mention Greece real quick, because Greece has been, uh

899
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 1: undergone a lot of really interesting changes over the best

900
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: fifteen years or so. Uh, and they have a lot

901
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: of refugees coming in from from Syria and a lot

902
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: of social services have gone under. Anarchists stepped in. Apparently

903
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: in Athens at least they took over fifteen buildings anarchists

904
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: did and turned them into shelters for three thousand refugees

905
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: and said that these unauthorized, unauthorized housings are better than

906
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: the camps that you guys are setting up government. Um,

907
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: their tear dorble, they're dirty, they're not safe. We're providing

908
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: food and medicine, and our places are safe, these centers

909
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: that we ever saved. So that's one kind of other

910
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: small interesting example. Yeah, still today, right, I don't know,

911
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I got to look into that. So, um,

912
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: I just want to sign off and saying like I'm

913
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: not espousing one thing over another necessarily. I think it's

914
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: up to each person to make up their own mind.

915
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: And if this caught your interest at all, I would

916
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: encourage you to go read more about it, because you

917
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: could spend the rest of your days reading about anarchism

918
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: and still not even get through half of it. But

919
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,240
Speaker 1: I'll bet along the way you would develop your own

920
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,919
Speaker 1: ideas about the whole thing, whether positive or negative. Yeah,

921
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: and at the very least, I hope we cleared up

922
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 1: some myths about what that word is, you know, because

923
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot different than people think for sure.

924
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: And hey, if you live in Christiania in Denmark, send

925
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: us a note, um and send us an invitation. Yeah,

926
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: and I'm just come there one day and check out

927
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: what that jam is all about. I might retire there

928
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: one day. We could do a show there. That'd be awesome. Yeah,

929
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: like people for for free, that would be pretty cool. Well,

930
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: they could pay us in old computer monitors, yes, and

931
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: magic must rooms. Uh. If you want to know more

932
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: about anarchism again, go out on the internet and read

933
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: all about it. But you can't start by typing that

934
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: word in the search bar. How stuff works dot com.

935
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: And since I said that, it's time for listener mail, Yeah,

936
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this, uh a very polite way to

937
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: talk to us about how we talked about suicide at

938
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: various times. And this is at a time when just

939
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: this past week in real time, we lost Kate Spade

940
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: and Anthony Bourdain. They took their own lives and it's

941
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: you know, caused it's it's a big it's called a

942
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: big resurgence, and and people talking out suicide and how

943
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: we talk about suicide. Anytime someone a big, high profile

944
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: person takes her own life, it's going to be in

945
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: the news. So um, it's on everyone's mind right now.

946
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: So I want to thank Jared for for writing in

947
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: so kindly. Hey, guys, for I say anything. I want

948
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: to thank you both for what you do. Years long fan,

949
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,479
Speaker 1: and can't tell you how much joy fulfillment you brought

950
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: to my life. After listening to the episode and free

951
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: to Carlo, I think I might actually have a way

952
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: to contribute to the knowledge sharing your show is all about.

953
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: In the episode, the topic of suicide was brought a

954
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: few times. I thought it'd be worthwhile to share some

955
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: of the most updated guidelines to how to most safely

956
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: talk about suicide. So he says this, uh, use preferred

957
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: language that has died by suicide or took his her

958
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: her own life. Don't say committed suicide. Because the idea

959
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: there is, if I remember correctly from another email, is

960
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: that committed indicates that the it is a crime. Yeah yeah, yeah,

961
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: that right, Yeah, from what I remember, And you know,

962
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: apologies for saying this. It's one of those things is

963
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: so ingrained as how you say it committed suicide, that

964
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: it's just hard to retrain my brain. Yeah, saying died

965
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: by suicide. It's it's tough, but I mean, we can

966
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: retrain ourselves to say that, and we're trying to, he said.

967
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: Also exclude details about method, location, notes or photos from

968
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: the scene. And then finally, don't try to guess or

969
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: in further cause of suicide. Simply indicate that suicide is

970
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: always caused by multiple factors. Yeah. Good points. Yeah, those

971
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: are all really good points. And I learned from reading this, so,

972
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: he said. He thought he passed along not as a critique,

973
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: but rather there's a way to share information with two

974
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: people who constantly seem to be doing whatever good they can.

975
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, That is from Jared. Thanks Jared, that was

976
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: very nice of you. It sure was, um And I

977
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: got the impression from his email, and if not his,

978
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: from another person who wrote in to say very similar

979
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: things that the point of all that is to to

980
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: not um to not help any content agusness that it has,

981
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: because apparently it's it's very contagious. We need to do

982
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: an episode on that, but now I'm scared to death

983
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: about saying the wrong things. Agreed, but you know we'll

984
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: tackle it, okay, so uh. In the meantime, if you

985
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: what was his name, Jared, Jared Jared, thanks again. And

986
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: in the meantime, if you want to get in touch

987
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: with us, I'm at joshum Clark on Twitter and on Instagram,

988
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: and Chuck is all over Facebook these days. He's at

989
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: movie Crush Pod, He's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant, he

990
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: is at Stuff you Should Know? Right? Isn't that the

991
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: official one? Correct her? And then you can send us

992
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: all an email, including Jerry to Stuff podcast at how

993
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com and it's always just go visit

994
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should

995
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: Know dot com for more on this and thousands of

996
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how Stuff? What's that? Carm