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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on,

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Speaker 1: the podcast brought to you by BNF, and today we're

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Speaker 1: looking into the investment trends that defined the energy transition

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, where investment levels exceeded two trillion

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Speaker 1: dollars globally for the first time. While this represented an

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Speaker 1: eleven percent year on year increase when compared with twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, unsurprisingly, these investments were not distributed evenly. For example,

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Speaker 1: one technology mainstay of renewable energy, came out on top,

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Speaker 1: and one newer technology that has had a lot of

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Speaker 1: buzz surrounding it in recent years is now losing popularity

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Speaker 1: when it comes to putting money where your mouth is.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by b and EF's head of Clean Power,

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Speaker 1: Meredith Annex, and our conversation doesn't end with new clean

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Speaker 1: energy capacity. She also shares insight into the investments made

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Speaker 1: into the grid and energy storage, which have traditionally been

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Speaker 1: considered bottlenecks but now might be improving. The show pulls

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Speaker 1: from information found in BNF's twenty twenty five edition of

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Speaker 1: the Energy Transition Investment Trends Report. If your client, you'll

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Speaker 1: be able to find the full report at BNF go

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Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal or once logged into BNAF dot com.

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Speaker 1: If you're not yet a client, you can download an

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Speaker 1: executive summary at about dot BNAF dot com. Forward slash

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Speaker 1: Energy Dash Transition Dash Investment. Now let's get to talking

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Speaker 1: about what those investment trends were. Meredith, thank you for

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Speaker 1: coming on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. Dana.

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Speaker 1: We're here to talk about the Energy Transition Investment Trends Report.

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Speaker 1: And before we get into that, I think it's important

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Speaker 1: just to highlight the fact that you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: working with your team on the research, that they're covering

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Speaker 1: so much of how we approach our research, not every

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Speaker 1: single time, but often we're thinking about is it technology,

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Speaker 1: is it policy? Is it economics? And this one really

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Speaker 1: encapsulates this. Looking back on the previous year and what

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Speaker 1: happened on where the money's moving so really big part

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Speaker 1: of the part of what we cover at BNF. So

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Speaker 1: invariably that means we know that it has value. Let's

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Speaker 1: look at energy investment trends. Let's see what it tells us.

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Speaker 1: How many times have we done this? And is once

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Speaker 1: a year often enough or too often, and why.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a report that we've been producing those

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Speaker 2: since the foundation of BNIF, so even before we were

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Speaker 2: acquired by Bloomberg, we were tracking the investments going in.

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Speaker 2: We didn't call it Energy transition investment trends at the time,

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Speaker 2: but we've been looking at this for a very very

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Speaker 2: long time now. This particular report, as you said, it's

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Speaker 2: our attempt to look bottom up at all of the

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Speaker 2: investments that have happened within the energy transition over the

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Speaker 2: past year. It's the fifth iteration of that report in

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Speaker 2: its current form. We've been adding to it steadily over time,

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Speaker 2: so a couple of years back we added things like

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Speaker 2: electrified heat and grids news sectors that are becoming important

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Speaker 2: to the transition to make sure that it stays comprehensive

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Speaker 2: in scope and is it's a hugely impactful piece. As

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Speaker 2: you said, this is the real money, This is the

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Speaker 2: real things that are happening a lot of the time

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Speaker 2: at BANIF we are looking forward, but having this kind

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Speaker 2: of once a year point where we sense check that

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Speaker 2: and see how it's playing out in reality, it has

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Speaker 2: been a very valuable exercise.

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Speaker 1: And you say bottom up, so where along this investor

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Speaker 1: community continuum do we look Is it everything from venture

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Speaker 1: capital all the way up to big banks and lending,

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Speaker 1: you know, what does encapsulate?

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Speaker 2: So the report has four sections. The one part of it,

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Speaker 2: which is the part that I work most closely with,

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Speaker 2: is the Energy Transition Investment that's looking at spending into

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Speaker 2: physical assets, so that is going to be points of

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Speaker 2: electricity generation, low carbon molecule production, consumption that is low

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Speaker 2: carbon as well. All of that. We've also got a

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Speaker 2: supply chain section which is looking at investments into the

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Speaker 2: factories that help make the clean technology equipment. And then

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Speaker 2: we've got two sections that are looking at the fund

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Speaker 2: raising side of things, whether that is, you know, the

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Speaker 2: sustainable finance side of things, what's happening with corporate bonds,

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Speaker 2: debt raising issuances, or whether that's looking at more of

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Speaker 2: the VC side of things, what's happening with climate tech

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Speaker 2: investments around the world.

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Speaker 1: So, given this is a fifth iteration, and my first

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Speaker 1: question really was around also is this often enough once

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Speaker 1: a year? Does that tell us enough of a story

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Speaker 1: that we can compare apples to apples and really see

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Speaker 1: some trends emerge? Were we able to actually see some

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Speaker 1: trends emerge and is year long enough for us to

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Speaker 1: really be able to say, you know, twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: had a theme.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think the year point tends to be better,

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Speaker 2: especially because a lot of these are chunky investments, especially

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Speaker 2: when you're looking at newer sectors things like hydrogen CCUS

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Speaker 2: low carbon industry. These will be not very frequent, but

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Speaker 2: big volumes of money that come out, and so looking

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Speaker 2: at it on an annual basis might tell you more

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Speaker 2: than looking at it a smaller timeline, because that might

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Speaker 2: just have been oh well, a deal closed in July

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Speaker 2: instead of June. On the renewable side, because there's a

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Speaker 2: lot more activity there, it's a more mature sector. We

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Speaker 2: actually do look at that twice a year, so in

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Speaker 2: the summer we also put out a report that's the

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Speaker 2: Renewable Energy Investment TRACKERBLISH alongside the Energy Transition Investment Trends

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Speaker 2: Report as a biannual publication just looking at clean energy

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Speaker 2: and renewable electricity specifically, as well as biofuels, and that's

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Speaker 2: just to reflect the nature of that market. You get

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Speaker 2: more transactions throughout the year, there's more things for us

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Speaker 2: to track and we can use that as kind of

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Speaker 2: like a midway point to see if we're on track

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Speaker 2: for the trends that we were expecting. So as you

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Speaker 2: zoomed out, what were some of the trends that emerged.

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Speaker 2: I think there are two really big trends from the

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Speaker 2: Energy Transition Investment Trends Report this year. First of all,

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Speaker 2: before we get into those trends, there's just a huge

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Speaker 2: milestone number this year, which is that we exceeded two

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Speaker 2: trillion dollars for the first time, which I think is

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Speaker 2: an incredibly exciting thing to remember, especially right now when

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Speaker 2: a lot of the language and political tension around clean

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Speaker 2: energy and the energy transition is quite high in many

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Speaker 2: parts of the world. Despite all of that, this stuff

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Speaker 2: is economical. We invested two trillion across the energy transition

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Speaker 2: space last year. Now, there are two trends, as we said,

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Speaker 2: that are coming out of this. One is that the

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Speaker 2: investment rate is slowing, so we saw a much slower

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Speaker 2: rate of growth last year. We saw growth, but it

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Speaker 2: was less immense than it was over the past two

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Speaker 2: year period. That's one trend that we're seeing, and that's

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Speaker 2: you know, driven a lot by what's happening with renewable energy.

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Speaker 2: Some of that comes down to just cheaper equipment for solar,

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Speaker 2: and some of it has to do with other challenges.

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Speaker 2: And then the other trend that we're seeing is this

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Speaker 2: almost two stage transition that's underway. So if we look

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Speaker 2: at the traditional areas of investment, renewables, electrified transport, and grid,

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Speaker 2: those accounted for over ninety percent of the total investment

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Speaker 2: over the course of twenty twenty four, and those are growing,

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Speaker 2: whereas we actually saw a drop in the newer areas

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Speaker 2: of investment, things like hydrogen CCUS, clean shipping, electrified heat,

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Speaker 2: and clean industry. So those only accounted for seven point

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Speaker 2: four percent of our total investment in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: and represented a twenty three percent year on your decline

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Speaker 2: as well compared to twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Three, which is a really important distinction to make because

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Speaker 1: I feel like the emerging tech conversation dominate. It's so

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Speaker 1: much of conversation, whether it's at our summits or even

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Speaker 1: just a Friday night with my friends. Everybody wants to

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Speaker 1: talk about the emerging tech. But if that's only representing

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Speaker 1: seven point four percent of the investment, the conversation around

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Speaker 1: what we actually are pouring money into and the solutions

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Speaker 1: that are getting real traction. I think should be just

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Speaker 1: as interesting for us to discuss. So let's do that.

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Speaker 1: Let's make them as interesting as possible for people who

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Speaker 1: are listening looking at renewables, what technologies really stood out

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four was once again a story of solar.

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Speaker 2: A renewable energy investment in general attracted seven hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty eight billion of investment in twenty twenty four. That

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Speaker 2: was up eight percent from the previous year. As I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: as a slower growth rate. Over twenty twenty to twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three, we saw nearly twenty one percent annual rise

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Speaker 2: in investments, So this is a slower growth, but when

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Speaker 2: we're looking at what's driving that growth, it is solar.

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Speaker 2: Solar was seventy two percent of the total investment that

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Speaker 2: we saw over the course of last year, a total

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Speaker 2: of over five hundred billion dollars being spent on that

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Speaker 2: across residential, utility and commercial scale applications, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of this is just driven by really cheap modules. Does

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Speaker 2: that have a geographic focus, because you know, on this show,

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Speaker 2: for those who listen to it regularly, they know a

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Speaker 2: lot of the conversation in particular about solar has to

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Speaker 2: do with Chinese manufacturers and how cheap those panels have become.

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Speaker 2: And even then, when you're looking at the sort of

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Speaker 2: industries they're trying to build up in the US with

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Speaker 2: the Inflation Reduction Act, solar is one of them, semiconductors.

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Speaker 2: Then sitting right in between all of this is this

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Speaker 2: story of cheap solar being financed, something that's happening all

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Speaker 2: over the world, or is it something that's really been

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Speaker 2: swayed by some very specific markets. It's a global story.

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Speaker 2: Those cheap Chinese modules benefit everybody, and what we're seeing

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Speaker 2: is a couple of specific stories. In general, newer markets

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Speaker 2: are rising, so there's a lot of activity in Central Asia,

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Speaker 2: Southeast Asia, Middle East, North Africa, probably the markets that

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Speaker 2: we would consider less mature for solar, but those are

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Speaker 2: growing immensely. We're seeing a strong reaction and consumer uptake

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Speaker 2: to blackouts. So if you look at South Africa has

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Speaker 2: actually been more stable with its power great over the

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Speaker 2: past year, so it saw a decline in solar installation

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Speaker 2: solar investment last year compared to twenty twenty three, but

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, the blackouts that we saw in

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Speaker 2: that market were really driving sales of solar, and in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four we saw a very similar story playing

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Speaker 2: out with in Pakistan. So you're getting all of these

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Speaker 2: markets where consumers are now able to afford solar modules

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Speaker 2: who may not have been able to otherwise before, and

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Speaker 2: they're taking them, and they're using that to build their

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Speaker 2: own resiliency and to service their own power consumption.

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Speaker 1: Which then leads us to another place in energy investment

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Speaker 1: trends that we saw maybe benefiting over the course of

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Speaker 1: this past year, which was the storage space, perhaps intrinsically

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Speaker 1: linked to the blackouts in solar, enabling us to get

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Speaker 1: through those periods where you don't have power coming from

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Speaker 1: the sun. Tell me a bit more about the story

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Speaker 1: in storage and and how positive is it really or

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Speaker 1: have I taken a look at a few charts and

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Speaker 1: maybe built it up to be bigger than it is.

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Speaker 2: Storage is growing immensely. It's still a small industry compared

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Speaker 2: to solar or wind. You know, we're talking about fifty

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Speaker 2: three point nine billion of investment across utility, commercial and

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Speaker 2: residential scale assets over the course of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: but that easily surpassed the twenty twenty three record of

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Speaker 2: thirty nine point six billion, and we really see that

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Speaker 2: momentum continuing for storage. There's a couple of drivers to that.

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Speaker 2: First of all, kind of similar to solar's the story

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Speaker 2: of cost declines. Lithium ion battery pack prices fell twenty

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Speaker 2: percent over the course of last year. They're now at

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Speaker 2: around one hundred and fifteen dollars per kilowatt hour based

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Speaker 2: off of our most recent price survey, and that's creating

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Speaker 2: again new opportunities to deploy this technology. It's making it

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Speaker 2: much more affordable. The biggest challenge for storage these days

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Speaker 2: is not so much the cost of that equipment. It's

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Speaker 2: more around the revenue and where the revenue is going

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Speaker 2: to come from. And on that side, we're also seeing

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Speaker 2: some gains. So you're seeing more adoption alongside residential commercial

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Speaker 2: solar because it's a way to increase self consumption from

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Speaker 2: that solar generation. But you're also seeing more markets that

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Speaker 2: are launching capacity markets and contracts for procuring energy storage,

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Speaker 2: and so that's been a growing trend as.

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Speaker 1: Well around the world. Now, in order to plug all

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Speaker 1: this new capacity online, there have to be transmission, distribution

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Speaker 1: lines and that has lagged. Can you talk about whether

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Speaker 1: or not the investment is actually going in that direction

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Speaker 1: in order to enable the rest of new capacity to

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Speaker 1: actually come online, or if maybe a slow down in investment

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Speaker 1: on that side has actually led to this overall slow

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Speaker 1: down in that one of those kind of more macro

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Speaker 1: themes that you saw over the course of the last year,

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Speaker 1: and that might be part of the problem.

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Speaker 2: So grid investment also hit a record last year. This

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Speaker 2: is in one of those you know, kind of core

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Speaker 2: markets that are continuing to grow stories that we were

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Speaker 2: talking about at the start. So we saw three hundred

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Speaker 2: and ninety billion invested in the power grid, at least

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Speaker 2: on capital expenditure. Obviously there's a lot of operational expenditure

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Speaker 2: in the grid as well, but this report is tracking

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Speaker 2: capital expenditure, and on top of that, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is a trend that's been going on for a while.

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Speaker 2: It's been about a thirteen percent compound annual growth rate

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Speaker 2: since twenty twenty one. This year was a record in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. But overall, while that's being driven by

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Speaker 2: rising needs to connect more renewable energy and more consumers,

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Speaker 2: it's still not enough necessarily to meet the amount of

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Speaker 2: renewables that are planned to be built. So if we

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Speaker 2: look at announced renewable energy pipelines or the amount of

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Speaker 2: capacity that's waiting in the queue to connect to the grid,

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Speaker 2: those are still significantly outsized. The grid's going to have

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Speaker 2: a long way to go to get past the bottlenecks

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Speaker 2: that are in the markets right now. It's clear that

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Speaker 2: a lot of those investment plans are taking this into account,

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Speaker 2: that we're starting to get there. But I think we'll

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Speaker 2: be talking about the story about grid capacity constraints for

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Speaker 2: a while.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it's a potential bottleneck, but there is money

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Speaker 1: going into it, and it looks like everyone's going into

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Speaker 1: it with their eyes wide open. Let's point out the

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Speaker 1: renewables omission that you have not yet discussed. If this

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Speaker 1: was the year of solar, that means it was not

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Speaker 1: the year of wind. What's happening with wind?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So WIN investment reached one hundred and ninety five

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Speaker 2: billion in twenty twenty four. But within that you've got

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Speaker 2: kind of two different tales. Onshore wind we think grew

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Speaker 2: about five percent. It's been relatively stable for the past

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Speaker 2: few years. There's a couple of cool stories within there,

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Speaker 2: but the real story of the decline in wind investment

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Speaker 2: came from offshore investments, which fell fifty seven percent from

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Speaker 2: twenty three to twenty twenty four. With offshore, the investment

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Speaker 2: opportunities are very chunky again, kind of like what we

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Speaker 2: were talking about with those new sectors. These are extremely

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Speaker 2: large projects. The ability to have an investable asset often

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Speaker 2: depends on pre set timelines that are determined by government

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Speaker 2: auction schedules or seabed lea schedules. So some of that

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Speaker 2: decline that we saw in twenty twenty four might just

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Speaker 2: be down to timing, maybe just been less availability, but

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Speaker 2: certainly the sector's also been under a lot of pressure

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Speaker 2: last year.

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Speaker 1: So, as we mentioned when we started the show, there's

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Speaker 1: these three lenses with which we often look at progress

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Speaker 1: in the energy transition. So economics we've discussed, Technology, we've

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Speaker 1: discussed and how that's actually we've seen a difference this

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Speaker 1: year in terms of the investment that's gone into the

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Speaker 1: more mature versus the emerging tech. So then that leads

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Speaker 1: us to that last one policy. It certainly is an

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Speaker 1: actively moving space, and by the time we actually published

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Speaker 1: this show, many more things may have changed in the

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Speaker 1: policy sphere, but over the course of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: one of the really important themes was the Inflation Reduction

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Speaker 1: Act in the US, and we talked about it many times.

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Speaker 1: So as we head into a year in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five of uncertainty when it comes to US clean power policy,

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Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about how those

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Speaker 1: policy targets in the year that has gone by played

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Speaker 1: into the numbers that we are seeing, so that we

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Speaker 1: can consider where we might be in a year's time.

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Speaker 1: Should there be big changes on that side.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, so, the Inflation Reduction Act has led to a

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Speaker 2: step change in the level of investment that we're seeing

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Speaker 2: within the US market. That's undeniable if we look at

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Speaker 2: the amounts of invested before its existence versus is more recently,

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Speaker 2: they're just it's much higher now. That said, the US

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Speaker 2: did contract last year. It fell about twelve percent. A

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Speaker 2: lot of that was there were a couple of reasons

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Speaker 2: for that. Some was down to election uncertainty, Some of

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Speaker 2: that was around interest rates rising. Some of that was

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Speaker 2: because twenty twenty three was a particularly high year because

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Speaker 2: we were overcoming supply chain bottlenecks and projects were just

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Speaker 2: able to move forward more quickly. So there's a number

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Speaker 2: of reasons there. Overall, though, we do find that the

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Speaker 2: US market is going to be pretty resilient to the

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Speaker 2: changes that are coming or could be coming around renewal

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Speaker 2: energy policy at a federal level. So at those point

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Speaker 2: in time, the recording of this podcast, as far as

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Speaker 2: we're where the Inflation Reduction Act tax credits will still

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Speaker 2: be available, could all change. As you said, the main

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Speaker 2: sector that's been affected so far is offshore wind, where

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Speaker 2: we have significantly reduced our forecast. That's driven not just

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Speaker 2: by uncertainty around the Inflation Reduction Act, but also the

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Speaker 2: second Trump presidency's attitude towards seabed leasing and saying that

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Speaker 2: they're not going to permit new sites. That's been one factor.

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Speaker 2: If we look at entrwind that would be significantly affected

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Speaker 2: by a removal of tax credits. Essentially, what it would

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Speaker 2: do is it would make some areas less economically attractive

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Speaker 2: than they would be with those tax credits, and so

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Speaker 2: you're more more affected by your location around what your

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Speaker 2: expected project return would be, whereas with the tax credits

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Speaker 2: you might be able to choose locations from a couple

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Speaker 2: of different places because just more things will be economically competitive.

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Speaker 2: On solar, we expect less of an impact. Sol there's

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Speaker 2: a lot cheaper, it's less capex intensive than wind is,

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Speaker 2: and so it's it's a bit easier to site as well.

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Speaker 2: And so we find that cetera to be the most

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Speaker 2: resilient to any changes in federal tax credit policy. But overall,

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Speaker 2: the biggest reason why we think the US is resilient

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Speaker 2: is because we look at corporate energy demand and this

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Speaker 2: year we just published our corporate power Purchase Agreement Outlook.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four was the eighth straight record year for

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Speaker 2: off take agreements. A lot of those are coming out

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Speaker 2: of the US, A lot of those are coming from

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Speaker 2: large tech companies who strong needs to procure energy quickly.

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Speaker 2: Solar and wind is a way to do that. And

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Speaker 2: because we look at that, because we're looking at utility

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Speaker 2: procurement plans as well, we have a lot of optimism

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Speaker 2: that demand will remain for US clean energy even with

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Speaker 2: changes potentially happening or uncertainty remaining within the federal policy landscape.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that we've learned over the

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Speaker 1: course of the past couple of decades is that the

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Speaker 1: energy system is not becoming more simple with single sources

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Speaker 1: of energy, but actually much more complex with solutions that

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Speaker 1: are really fit for a specific market. And this potentially

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Speaker 1: is a opportunity for domestic manufacturing in the US. So

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Speaker 1: whether or not it is renewable energy is potentially beside

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Speaker 1: the point in that it actually does feed in quite

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Speaker 1: closely with tariffs and domestic manufacturing objectives of this administration.

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Speaker 1: So perhaps twenty twenty five we also not be the

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Speaker 1: year of wind, but it may continue to be the

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Speaker 1: year of solar.

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Speaker 2: And it's worth saying as much as you know, the

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Speaker 2: overall wind story was a pretty hard one with the

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Speaker 2: declines that we saw in twenty twenty four, there are

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Speaker 2: really positive cases in there. So we saw a lot

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Speaker 2: of growth from new markets for wind. This is kind

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Speaker 2: of true across renewable energy in general, but with when

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Speaker 2: in particular. We saw growth in markets like Romania and

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Speaker 2: markets that just may not have come across your radar

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Speaker 2: before if you were active in the wind industry. The

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Speaker 2: other thing that we saw is mature markets that actually grew,

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Speaker 2: So a lot of mature arkets contracted over the course

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four, but Germany we're starting to see

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Speaker 2: the impacts of permitting reform. There we actually saw a

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Speaker 2: growth investment. In Australia, we saw more supportive policy and

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Speaker 2: strong corporate energy demand, so again we saw an investment growth.

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Speaker 2: And in Korea where we actually saw growth across AFTRA, wind,

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Speaker 2: solar and ONTRA win for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned a few countries that are worth really focusing on,

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Speaker 1: and let's continue on with this part around the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean it really when we look at trends, I

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Speaker 1: think back to when I first moved to the UK,

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Speaker 1: which is about two decades ago, and when people ask

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Speaker 1: me why I came to London, the answer is really well,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to work in the renewable space, and the

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Speaker 1: UK had an emissions target and Germany couldn't throw solar

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Speaker 1: panels on their roofs fast enough. So this was the

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Speaker 1: center of gravity. That center of gravity keep shifting every year,

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Speaker 1: as we see in the energy transition investment trends, it

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Speaker 1: does move around. So tell me a bit about where

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Speaker 1: you're seeing the center of gravity shift in some of

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Speaker 1: those markets that maybe stood out as not the bog

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Speaker 1: standard one year after the next. So specifically within the

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Speaker 1: renewable energy investment side of this, we have to talk

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Speaker 1: about mainland China. You can't not talk about mainland China

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about global investments and renewables. Mainland China

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Speaker 1: made up forty percent of our global total this year.

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Speaker 1: It was only a six percent year on your rise,

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Speaker 1: which is slightly unusual for that market. A lot of

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Speaker 1: that is because you had cheaper equipment that was offsetting

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Speaker 1: some of the growth in new investment that you had

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Speaker 1: in terms of capacity. So it's basically your each dollar

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Speaker 1: was going further in terms of the amount that it

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Speaker 1: could build in that market. Now, that's the one that

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Speaker 1: you have to talk about forty percent of total growth.

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Speaker 1: But there's a couple of markets that we talked about

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Speaker 1: just within wind But if we'd look even more globally,

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Speaker 1: you have to talk about Pakistan. Pakistan saw sixty billion

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Speaker 1: of investment last year, twelve point three billion more than

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. That was almost entirely driven by solar.

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Speaker 1: We saw India investment grow fifteen percent, Southeast Asia's investment

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Speaker 1: grow thirty seven percent. A lot of that was driven

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Speaker 1: by the Philippines, which has just been a real growth

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Speaker 1: market within that region, and even within the US where

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Speaker 1: you did see an overall decline, as we discussed, there

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Speaker 1: are markets that were growing. So if we look at

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Speaker 1: like Texas and California, we're seeing a lot more utility

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Speaker 1: scale storage deployment, for instance, and that has been another

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Speaker 1: story within the overall energy space. So I actually am

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Speaker 1: not sure whether this falls into emerging tech or mature tech.

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Speaker 1: And what I want to ask is this kind of

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Speaker 1: overrated underrated nuclear question because a small modular is something

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Speaker 1: people talk about much more on the emerging tech side,

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Speaker 1: But then we see nuclear in countries like France as

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Speaker 1: a very mature part of baseload power. Where does nuclear

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Speaker 1: investment fit into this? Because it has been discussed much

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Speaker 1: more and there is more money going into R and

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Speaker 1: D on that side, So do we expect to see

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Speaker 1: that feature? Will there be a year in the future

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Speaker 1: where you can say it was the year the nuclear

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Speaker 1: featured in the energy transition investment trends? So a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways to answer that one.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to say on nuclear. Overall nuclear investment

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four was roughly flat with twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: There were more reactors, just slightly that were under construction

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Speaker 2: last year. But I think when we're talking about nuclear,

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Speaker 2: we have to separate out kind of the conventional restarts,

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Speaker 2: that sort of side of it from the newer technology

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Speaker 2: like small modular reactors. The other big thing to note

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Speaker 2: about nuclears, of course, data centers. We saw a huge

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Speaker 2: rise in conversation around nuclear over the course of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four, a lot of interest in using nuclear as

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Speaker 2: a way to provide baseload power to these power hungry

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Speaker 2: data center sites. The ones that are successfully doing that

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Speaker 2: are the ones that can utilize a existing nuclear reactor,

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Speaker 2: conventional nuclear reactor and simply just restart it or purchase

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Speaker 2: that power. We saw the first nuclear power purchase agreements

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Speaker 2: for off site supply signed over the course of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four as well. But when we're talking about small

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Speaker 2: modular reactors, these aren't commercially viable yet right they're still

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Speaker 2: being proven out. We don't think that they're going to

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Speaker 2: be a big part of the story until the mid

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Speaker 2: twenty thirties. So the timelines that we're talking about for

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Speaker 2: things like data center load growth, you're probably going to

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Speaker 2: want those data centers online before that small modular reactor

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Speaker 2: is available.

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Speaker 1: So nuclear does fit into both of these buckets, but

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Speaker 1: you would consider it one to watch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's worth watching. Whether it goes or

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00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 2: not uncertain, but it's definitely worth watching.

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Speaker 1: So one last overrated underrated heat pumps.

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Speaker 2: So underrated heat pumps had a very challenging year in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. We saw significant drop in sales in Europe,

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Speaker 2: for instance, largely on the back of challenges around consumer

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00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: spending and policy changes. But they're so important to the

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Speaker 2: energy transition, whether we're looking at low temperature industrial heat

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Speaker 2: or the residential and commercial building segments. We think heat

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Speaker 2: pumps are going to be a huge part of the

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Speaker 2: energy transition into decarbonization of those two sectors. And so

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Speaker 2: I'll say underrated, even though the investment fell over the

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Speaker 2: course of twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Meredith, thank you for walking us through these trends over

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Speaker 1: the course of the last year and for joining us

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Dana, it was

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Speaker 2: great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by cam Gray

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00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala S. Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is

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00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,359
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