1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: Oh boy, welcome to America. The podcast. Wait is that? 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Is that what we're calling it now? I don't think 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: that's true. We just had like two episodes on international 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: tourfs that think we are going to we're trying to 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: be a little beyond America. I fucked it up. I 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: fucked it up. Well that's the podcast. Goodbye, everybody. See 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: Usually at this point you say, Garrison take over. All right, 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: well let's let's get into this. What are we talking 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: about today? Who are we? Where are we? What is life? 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: Where it could happen? Here? Where is God? Final episode 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: of the war on transpeople? Which means when this episode, 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: when this episode is done, that means the war will 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: be over. We did it, everybody, and whatever God's wants were, 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: if long abandoned this place. We did get pretty good 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: news about the governor of Utah, kind of surprising me here. 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that just hit. It's nice. There's the there's that. 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean. Luckily, look, some of some of the bills 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: that we've talked about actually have been shut down at 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: this point. The Wisconsin Wisconsin bill got shut got got 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: signed down surprisingly and in very very recently, like yeah, 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: the past few days. Yeah. Um, there's a looks like 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: there's still going to be injunctions on any investigations in 23 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: Texas until the case gets put up. Still very much 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: in the air. It's it's still in the courts, but 25 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's trying. It's at least it's kind 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: of paused right now, and it's going to get settled 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: at some point in either the lawsuit or in the 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: higher courts. So we'll see, we'll see how that develops. 29 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: But for right now, seems some things seem to be 30 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: paused and some states are not are not fully passing it. 31 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: I know there was a walkout by Disney employees today 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: about over there don't say gay bill, and we're gonna 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: see if that's gonna get signed. Um. So, yeah, it's 34 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: still still up in the air, but we're gonna be 35 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: talking about something a little bit different, gonna do some 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna do some time travel. Oh boy, that's that's 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: what I had to say. So we're going we're going 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: to go back to another time in which there was 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: a for a very brief period, a massive expansion in 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: the knowledge about and sort of but both knowledge about 41 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: and appearance of and safety of trans people and then 42 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: it all catatrophically came crashing down. Oh good. And to 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: help us with that is Robern Evidence my boss. Hi, everybody, 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: how are we doing, Garrison? How? How how are we doing? Oh? 45 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm doing actually fine, I'm just I'm just waiting for 46 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: you to do your job and not passing over all. Right. 47 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: So the important thing to understand is that like the 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: kind of very concept of not just gay rights, but 49 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: like our our modern attitudes towards like what it means 50 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: to be homosexual and trans all have their origins in 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: Germany in the not not just in the post war period, 52 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: but really the last couple of decades of the Kaiser 53 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: and the Weimar Republic. Like that is where kind of 54 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: the modern Western attitudes towards what it like is to 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: be homosexual really get formed, because obviously, like gay people 56 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: have existed for forever, there's quite a bit of documentation, 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: but if you look at like, for example, you know, 58 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: two spirit folks within some indigenous American cultures, that's a 59 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: very different attitude towards um, like what like trans people, 60 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: I suppose the Western exactly. Yeah, so this is like 61 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: they're there's Western quote unquote you know whatever. Yeah, there's 62 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: the actual thing that's going on, and like the the 63 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: individual sexuality, and then there's kind of the the public 64 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: concept of what it is um and and that is 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: really forming. In Probably the seminal moment that kind of 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: starts this progress is in August sixty seven, when a 67 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: lawyer named Karl Heinrich Riks go before the sixth Congress 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: of German Jurists in munich Um to urge them to 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: repeal laws forbidding sex between men. So again there is 70 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: still a kaiser and like this is this is before 71 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: Germany is actually fully a nation, right because eighteen seventies 72 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: when that happens, so Germany doesn't even really exist at 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: this point. There's a series of like kings kind of 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: being welded together slowly into a German state. And there 75 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: is a lawyer getting up in front of like the 76 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: council of different German jurists to urge an end to 77 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the laws that make it illegal for for men to 78 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,119 Speaker 1: have sex with each other. And one thing that's important 79 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: to notice that obviously there are lesbians in this period 80 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: of time, as again there have been throughout all of history. 81 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: That's not really a legal problem, right, They do not 82 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: face really legal repression and and I mean not to 83 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: say that like there's not repression and things that they're 84 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: dealing with, but it's not the same as as it 85 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: is for like men who want to be in relationships 86 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: with men. That's it's in fact a lot easier for 87 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: women to be kind of like and this is not 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: just Germany to be built to like kind of say 89 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: like we lived together, right, like we're on and we 90 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: live together like where. Yeah, that that because in part 91 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: because men, just like I think a lot of like 92 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: the men in this period just assume it's impossible like 93 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: that women would do that or or the other side 94 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: of it is like femininity is always presentuary, it's always 95 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: like it's un as soon as the beauty symbol. So 96 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: it makes more sense for women to find other women 97 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: attractive because that's what beauty is is when is performative femininity, 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: So like that's like way more obvious and it doesn't 99 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: make sense for but and it makes less sense for 100 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: men to find other men attractive, and that's way more 101 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: taboo because of the way that messages with like patriarchy. Um, 102 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think there could be a like gender 103 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: studies and sexuality studies can have a lot of theorizings 104 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: for how this is developed. But yeah, this this idea 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: you can even see in like Victorian era and like 106 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: run Us on Sarah of yeah, women who lived together 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: and are very good friends, very very very close friends. 108 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: I hope people don't feel like I'm trying to like 109 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: flatten the history of like the concept of being a 110 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: lesbian in the West, to to that at all, or 111 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: trying to for that matter, flattened like homosexuality between men. 112 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: But I am kind of making the point, and I 113 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: am not the person who are kind of initially made 114 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: this point. The scholarly work that I'm kind of basing 115 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: my research on this on largely right now, and we're 116 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: going to do an episode behind the Bastards that gets 117 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: in two more of this, I think in the near future. 118 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: But it's a called Gay Berlin by Robert baccy Um 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: and in in the book, one of the things that 120 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: Beach argues is that even though obviously same sex love 121 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: is as old as the existence of quite a bit 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: older actually than the existence of human beings, um, the 123 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: public discourse around it, and like the political attempt to 124 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: win rights for gay people starts in Germany in the 125 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, and it starts in this conference in 126 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty seven. Um And and the guy who does 127 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: this rix is a number one, is a gay man. 128 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: Um And he had he had been open kind of 129 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: to his relatives. He had started in the period before 130 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: he gets up in front of all these lawyers to 131 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: be open with like his family members that he was homosexual. 132 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: Um but he had never like, he was not publicly out. 133 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: And so on the same day that he appeals for 134 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: a change in the legal code to make homosexuality legal 135 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: in the German States is the day he comes out 136 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: publicly as a gay man. Like. He does both of 137 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: these things at the same time. And I want to 138 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: from a New york Yeah, it's quite a moment. Um. 139 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: I want to read a quote from a New Yorker 140 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: article that's covering all of this, and that's based again 141 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: on the book Gay Berlin quote. He faced an audience 142 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: of more than five hundred distinguished legal figures, and as 143 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: he walked to the lectern, he felt a pang of fear. 144 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: There was still time to keep silent, he later remembered 145 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: telling himself, then there will be an end to all 146 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: your heart pounding but Ulrix, who had earlier disclosed the 147 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: same sex desires and letters to relatives, did not stop. 148 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: He told the assembly that people with a sexual nature 149 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: opposed to common custom were being persecuted for impule is 150 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: that nature, mysteriously governing and creating, had implanted in them. 151 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: Pandemonium erupted and Rix was forced to cut short his remarks. 152 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: Still he had an effect. A few liberal minded colleagues 153 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: accepted his notion of an innate gay identity, and a 154 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: Bavarian official privately confessed to similar yearnings and a pamphlet 155 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: titled Gladyus Furans or Raging sword or Rix wrote, I 156 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: am proud that I found the strength to thrust the 157 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: first lance into the flank of the hydra of public. 158 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: It feel like that sometimes but incredibly based. Wow, what 159 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: if there's a heaven? I hope this dude made it there, 160 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: because one absolute unbelievable. So no, but like what it like, like, yeah, 161 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: the astonished, Like the astounding bravery that that takes. Um 162 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: And he's essentially the first gay activist in a modern 163 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: Western political context. Um, And it's interesting, like uh, within 164 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: kind of the the next couple of years, things start 165 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: to happen very quickly. Two years later in eighteen sixty nine, 166 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: uh and Austrian an Austrian writer I know right named 167 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: Carl Kurt Benny um, who is kind of fighting sodomy 168 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: laws and and and sodomy laws are laws that make 169 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: everything that's not like missionary position sexily targeted towards towards 170 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: gay men primarily. Um. So Carl Kurt Benny create like 171 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: he's the guy who invinced the term homosexuality, like like 172 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: two years after this is part of his like fight 173 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: against these anti sodomy laws. Um. The eighteen eighties of 174 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: Berlin police commissioner makes the decision to stop prosecuting gay bars. Um. 175 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: And in fact, not only does he stop doing this, 176 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: but he starts leading tours of the gay districts in 177 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: Berlin just to like show off, like look at how 178 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of wow, what a weird picture of putting 179 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: your head at least even like yeah, especially copy and 180 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: like why are we arresting these people? Let's show this off? 181 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So in eighteen nineties six, the very first 182 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: gay magazine starts publishing in Germany in Berlin. Really do 183 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: you want to know what it's called? Of course? Why 184 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: of course, the German name is derrk eigen h and 185 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: that means the self owning. That's great, it's pretty it's 186 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: pretty cool. Um. So the very next year, eighteen nineties seven, 187 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: one of the primary heroes of the early gay rights struggle, 188 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: physician Magnus Hirschfeld uh starts the Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which 189 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: is the first organized gay rights group in Western history 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: at least. Um So, by the start of the twentieth century, 191 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff is in place, right And I 192 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: think I'm even have been a little bit guilty of 193 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: this in the past, of kind of focusing so much 194 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: on Weimar Germany, um and all of the stuff that 195 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: happens around game by rights there, and how progressive it was. 196 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: This is building in Germany. Again, we don't consider the 197 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: Kais or Reich as a particularly progressive place, but all 198 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: of this is happening under the Kaisers. And there's there's 199 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: so many things that are happening in the eighteen nineties 200 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: and the start of the nineteen hundreds that directly mirror 201 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: things that are happening in the United States in the 202 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. In fact, right as the century turns, um 203 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: you start getting an advocate one of the first gay 204 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: rights advocates in gay literature uses the phrase coins the 205 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: phrase staying silent is death to like talk about the 206 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: importance of gay literary, which is essentially the same slogan, 207 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: the same stuff we're talking about right now with all 208 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: of like the with with all the book bandings taking 209 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, doing a massive sweep of that the past 210 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: the past few years. Yeah, this is nineteen hundred, like 211 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: basically that this is starting. Um, so yeah, and there's 212 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's even there's a lot of um. Activists 213 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: start to complain and to try to complain both within 214 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: like their own magazines and within like more public magazines 215 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: about things like negative depictions of gay people in popular novels. 216 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: They start to be the first arguments about whether or 217 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: not it's morally right to out people who are gay 218 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: but who are attached to anti gay organizations, because that 219 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: starts happening absolutely, Um, it's it's sucking wild howld off. 220 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: This is nothing new or than the sun. Yeah, but like, 221 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: but this is also like the first time it happened 222 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: in these types of countries, in these societies. Yeah, yea, 223 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: but it is that is so yes, times of flat circle. 224 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: But this is also like the first time it's happened, 225 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: and it's just kind of been rehappening ever since. Then. 226 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: It's important to note I didn't I didn't covers. When 227 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: we start talking about Rix, well, there's a lot of 228 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 1: people who get angry, and obviously Rix is not successful 229 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: in repealing the anti homosexuality laws. Um when he makes 230 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: his speech. In addition to the people who are like 231 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: yelling at him to sit down, there are like German 232 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: deputies yelling no, no, no, let him continue, let him continue, 233 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: like he needs to be allowed to talk. Um. So 234 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: even like in this period of time, there are non 235 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: gay people at a fairly high level in German politics 236 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: who are like vocal allies and starting to become vocal allies. 237 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: You know. Um, yeah, it's it's it's pretty fascinating. So um. Obviously, 238 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: World World War One happens, um doesn't go great for Germany, 239 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: but you know, we we get after that. The Vimar 240 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: Republic and the Viimar Republic is kind of the traditional 241 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: era in which we talk a lot about, you know, 242 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: gay rights starting to really move forward in significant ways. 243 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: And uh so there's a lot of um, even kind 244 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: of into the early nineteen thirties, some pretty interesting things 245 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: that are happening in German society and like the mainstream 246 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: elements of it. There's a film called ma Chin in 247 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: Uniform in nineteen thirty one, which is the first like 248 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: positive portrayal of lesbians in Western cinema. Um. Like thirty 249 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: one is like again we're talking like right before uh 250 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: Z the nazis kind of kind of come around. Um. 251 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's these like this this this police commissioner 252 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: that we chatted about earlier. I think it's one of 253 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: the people who's most interesting to me. We're gonna get 254 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: to Hirshfeld a bit in in a little bit, but 255 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: this this guy is named Leopold von Muerscheite Wholsheim. Um, 256 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get that right. But he's a 257 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: big part of when we talk about gay Berlin, particularly 258 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: during the Weimar years. Even though he's like during what 259 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: while the Kaiser's in, He's why gay Berlin really happens 260 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um. And it's in part 261 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: because like he decides to stop cracking down on on 262 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: gay people. Um. And like he's not gay, although his 263 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: boss is, which is part of like what makes it easier. Um. 264 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: For him to do this, and there's like a lot 265 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: of debate about why he does this because he's not 266 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: like a gay rights activist. Some people say that it's 267 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: because is um he's worried that like gay people will 268 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: become politically radicalized by the Reds and so if you 269 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: stop cracking down on them, they won't go communists like that. 270 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of like debate about like why he 271 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: does this. Um. He's also there's a number of things 272 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: that he like, he takes a lot of data on 273 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: on gay people in Berlin, and he does this on everybody. 274 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: He's a big data guy. So it's not particularly uh 275 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: um harmful in his era, but it's some of the 276 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: stuff that he gathers will be used by the Nazis 277 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: later um, which is kind of a broader thing about 278 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: like the wisdom of not letting the government get access 279 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: to this like he has he founds a department of 280 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: Homosexuals in eighteen eighty five that like lists the people 281 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: that they know are gay, and and again like this 282 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: is all so it's really a complicated thing that's that's 283 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: happening here because he's not he's not this like thoroughly 284 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: sympathetic figure. He's doing a lot of stuff that's that's 285 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: weird and that will later have negative outcomes. But he's 286 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: also by ending police persecution of gay people, um, at 287 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: least in an organized way, really allowing gay culture to 288 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: to blossom um in Berlin. Uh. And it's it's it's yeah. 289 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read another quote from that New Yorker article here. 290 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: For whatever reason, Mr scheid Holsenheim took a fairly benevolent 291 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: attitude towards Berlin's same sex bars and dance halls, at 292 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: least in the better healed parts of the city. He 293 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: was on cordial terms with many regulars, and none other 294 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: than Odious Strindberg testified in his autobiographical novel The Cloister, 295 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: which evokes the same sex costume ball at the Cafe Nationale. 296 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: And this is a the police inspector and his guests 297 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: had seated themselves at a table in the center of 298 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: one end of the room, close to which all the 299 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: couples had to pass. The inspector called them by their 300 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: Christian names, and some and some of the most interesting 301 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: among them to his table. So he's kind of like 302 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: going on safari like among the gay people in Berlin. 303 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of weird. It's it's weird in 304 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: a lot of way. Um, But he's also one of 305 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: the things he does is he provides police help to 306 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: gay people who are being blackmailed and like threatened withouting, um. 307 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: And he'll even like counsel them on how to handle it, 308 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: Like he provides like counselors and stuff. And he does 309 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: this in part because like he's worried about, um, them 310 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: committing suicide because they're being blackmailed, which is like a 311 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: real problem in Germany in a bunch of other places. Um. Yeah, 312 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: and this guy, like why this police commissioner winds up 313 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: killing himself kind of in the early nineteen hundreds, I 314 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: think because he wound up getting found to be taken 315 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: bribes from some millionaire who gets in a lot of 316 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: legal trouble for raping somebody. So again, he is a 317 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: sketchy dude, but he's also like because he's he's got 318 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: this weird almost like voyeuristic fascination with gay people, um, 319 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: and some legitimate because there are legitimate humanitarian concerns. He's 320 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: really worried about people committing suicide as a result of blackmail. 321 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: So he's one of these figures we don't talk about 322 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: enough in history where it's like the overall outcome of 323 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: this guy's at work is pretty positive, but he does 324 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: it for this like really confusing mix of reasons. He's 325 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: just a very strange figure in history. Well, I think 326 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting looking at him, like like comparing him to 327 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: like if you look at like what the US is 328 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: doing in the fifties, right where there's this whole thing 329 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: about like gay people are getting are gonna get are 330 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: getting blackmailed, and the you know, the the US, the 331 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: entire U S Security state loses his mind and becomes 332 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: convinced that like these people are all going to become 333 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: Soviet agents and you know, and instead of like doing 334 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: counseling that there's the thing that they do is they 335 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: they do the Lavender Scare and they start purging every 336 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: gay person they can find from the entire US government. 337 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: And it's like, no, it's it's it's interesting that like, yeah, 338 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: this is this is a guy in like late eighteen hundreds, 339 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds like like literally ruled Bay Monarch Berlin, 340 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: and his policies are enormously better than like anything you're 341 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: going to see for like half a century. He's he 342 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: is way more woke on on this than like any 343 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: New York police officer for a century today, upped up 344 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: to the present day. In a lot of way, it's like, yeah, 345 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: so let's talk about Magnus Hirschfeld a bit. Um. Hirshfield 346 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: is very influenced by Ulrich, the guy we started the 347 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: story with. His first like publication on the matter is 348 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: called Sappho and Socrates and eight nineties six, which is 349 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: again it's a story of a gay man who gets 350 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: coerced into marriage. So this like uh, and who commits 351 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: suicide as a result. So there's like a big with 352 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: both um, you know, his police commissioner, with Hirshfeld, with 353 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are becoming activists in this period. 354 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: A big part of why is, for one reason another 355 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: the suicide rate among gay people, um, which is a 356 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: huge problem today for for trans people in particular. And 357 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: this is what it's interesting, like that that Utah governor 358 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, made the announcement today that like he's vetoing 359 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: this trans sports ban in Utah, and he specifically cites 360 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: like the suicide rate among trans people is so like 361 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: high and it he could not morally conscience doing anything 362 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: that would like make these kids feel othered and likelier 363 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: to commit suicide. I mean, okay, well let's let's let's 364 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: let's not go that far. He he he was, he 365 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: was willing, He was willing to do the commissions. She 366 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: just wasn't willing to do a full band. Yeah, I'm 367 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: just saying the the justification he gets for what he's 368 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: doing is like, um, is the rate of suicide attempts 369 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: among trans people. Um. Not to like whitewash that guy 370 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: or utah. Like again, we've been doing this whole week's episodes, 371 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: but it's interesting that you get um again, It's just 372 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: kind of like the the issue for a long time 373 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: has been that when you like other people and make 374 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: it dangerous for them to be who they are openly, 375 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: they will kill themselves. Um, a lot of them will. 376 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: And that's that's a thing that is even by very 377 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: problematic people in Germany in the eighteen nineties, folks recognize that, 378 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: like this is a huge issue. UM. So yeah, Hirschfeld 379 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: um starts this first organization that's like gay rights organization. Um. 380 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: And he also is doing like a huge amount of 381 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: of research. Um. He is fall again, he's following in 382 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: l Rick's footsteps, he too believes that that homosexuality is congenital, right, 383 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: it's something you're born with, as opposed to like a 384 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: choice people make because of Dvans or whatever, which is 385 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: still the big fight that we're having to this day. 386 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: And he's also like, it's hard to there's a lot 387 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: that like you can criticize about Hirschfeld scientifically and a 388 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: lot of the research he does, among other things, there's 389 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: like difficulty with like control groups and actually like being 390 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: the kind of scientific sort of detachment that is necessary 391 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: to study that. There's like critiques of his of his 392 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: research that are valid, But one of the he's he's 393 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: really like, it's wild how far ahead of the curvey 394 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: is because one of the things that Hirschfeld introduces is 395 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: the idea that sexuality is a spectrum um where there's 396 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: what he calls sexual intermediaries between male and female. Um. 397 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: He doesn't believe that like those are even particularly useful 398 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: terms that sexuality kind of like it it again, that 399 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: it's a spectrum, which is this thing that we are 400 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: just now really starting to have good wider, kind of 401 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: ranging conversations about today. Um Dan Hirschfeld is very much 402 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: like kind of utopian and his belief that if you 403 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: can scientifically study and understand where homose, like what homosexuality is, 404 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: and that it is an innate characteristic, that people will 405 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: stop being bigoted against gay folks right like his his 406 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: belief is that science will end prejudice, um, just because 407 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: the German people are so scientific and like they'll have 408 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: to accept this if I could just like prove it 409 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: with enough rigor, which is heartbreaking, heartbreaking that he was 410 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: very very wrong. Um, And yeah, there's a number of 411 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: things that are like really worth kind of within sort 412 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: of the because he's not he's kind of come down 413 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: now as this sort of um like saint like hero 414 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: of the gay rights movement for good reason. But that 415 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: does tend to flatten the fact that within his his 416 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: day and within kind of the gay culture in Berlin 417 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: in particular, there were a lot of people who were 418 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: frustrated with him for a lot of reasons. Um, there 419 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: were a lot of So there's this there's this split 420 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: in gay culture in this period of time between um, 421 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: gay men who are seen as more effeminate and what 422 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: are called the masculinists, um and the masculinists they are 423 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: not all or even mostly Nazis, but all of the 424 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: gay Nazis are what you'd call masculinists, right, who are 425 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: like I'm not having like like like I am so 426 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: manly that the only person I can have sex with 427 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: as a man, right, Like that I'm flattening even that 428 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: quite a bit. But like you have guys like um 429 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: Ernst Rome, who is the head of the Brownie Shirts 430 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: and is is a is a gay Nazi and is 431 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: like that's that's a significant, not an insignificant chunk of 432 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: the Nazis. They will get murdered in the Night of 433 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: Long Knives. And it is interesting that that Rome was 434 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: outed by anti fascists. Yeah, he sure, like two years 435 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: before he was murdered, and it was it was, it 436 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: was he was specifically outed to so division within the 437 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: Nazi party. Yes, and that does like also just playing it, 438 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: you know, you're you're you're talking about like, you know, 439 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: people having debate over whether it's okay to out somebody, 440 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: um if they you know, are part of that organization's right. 441 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: That was something we mentioned previously and yeah, just like 442 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: an interesting historical tidbit. Yeah, and it's it's um so 443 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: uh again among like one of the things that the 444 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: masculinists are doing is like a lot of them are 445 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: married to women, and they're they're actually fine with this 446 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: because again they think that like, well, you still need 447 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: to like procreate and have Like no, it's not even 448 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: all just about being having like a beard or whatever 449 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: you wanna call it. Some of it is just like 450 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: this attitude that you have a responsibility to make more 451 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: Germans for the fatherland. But like then when it comes 452 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: to it's kind of like the Greeks, they were not 453 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: wildly dissimilar concepts, and a lot of the masculinists ideologically 454 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: are wrapped up in the work of Max S. Turner 455 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: Um and in fact, like the Self Owners that first 456 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: gay magazine that was I was like, oh, that sounds 457 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: like Start's egoism. Yeah, yes, yeah, there's a lot of 458 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: that going and we we we again. I went to 459 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: at some point provide a lot more detail on this 460 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: because it's it's all fascinating, um. But there there are 461 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: these big sort of like this big split, and there's 462 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: he gets a lot of ship from the masculinists for 463 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: because he also studies lesbians heavily, Like there's a decent 464 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: chunk of the gay male population in Berlin who's against 465 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: the research in the medical practice he's doing to help 466 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: trans people, who was against his research on lesbians because 467 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: they're like, well, this is this is the fight, right, 468 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: Like we're the ones who were being legally cracked down 469 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: on or whatever like. Um. So there's a bunch of 470 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: like different cleavages and fractures kind of within the community 471 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: at this time in Hirschfeld is not universally beloved and 472 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: there are people kind of within the gay community who 473 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: have a lot of issues with him. Um And I 474 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: just think it's important to note that because we often 475 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: do again kind of flattened things, because the Nazis flattened things, right, 476 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: because these were all it was all the same to them, 477 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: um and and we often flatten them in a different 478 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: way to where like, yeah, you've got this guy and 479 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: he's the he's the hero of the of the of 480 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: gay ber Lynd and he's this like thoroughly positive. No, 481 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who hated him for 482 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: like all these different reasons because this was uh, these 483 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: like all people had a million different kind of fractures 484 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: and ideologies sort of running within Um what what someone 485 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: who was not looking in from the outside, would have 486 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: just called gay Berlin, you know. Um. And yeah, obviously 487 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: this all falls apart or is is cracked down horribly 488 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: when the Nazis come to power. Um, Hirshfeldt is doing 489 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: a lot of some of them, I mean, all of 490 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: the very earliest research on like what it is to 491 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: be transgender, and he is performing surgery on like gender 492 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: operations on on trans people for the very first time. Um. 493 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: And and that gets all kind of destroyed in in 494 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: May of nineteen thirty three, which is about three months 495 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: after Hitler becomes Reich's chancellor. Uh, Nazis sack hirshfeldt Institute 496 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: for Sexual Science. They burn its library. Um, they go 497 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: after a lot of of of his of the people 498 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: he had been working with an on are killed, others 499 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: have to flee. Um. Hirschfeld is thankfully out of the 500 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: country on tour when the Nazis rise to power and 501 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: just you know, doesn't come back. Um he sees he 502 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: watches his institute get burned and all of his his 503 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: research get burned, and a newsreel in Paris. Uh and 504 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: he dies the next year. Um. Yeah, So that's the 505 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: that's the the broad details of kind of the story 506 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: of this early period, um of of the birth of 507 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: kind of like a lot of our our legal fights 508 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: around you know, gay rights, and like the birth of 509 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: kind of Western gay identity, like this is where it 510 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: comes from. And and uh yeahum, there's a lot that's 511 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: important and understanding this. And this is one of the 512 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: points that gets made in Gaberlin. We often see the 513 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: Weimar years is this kind of inevitable march towards fascism, 514 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: And the reality is that there was fifth something years 515 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: of of incredibly progressive movements on on gender and sexuality. Um. 516 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: And you know, even outside of gay rights, just in 517 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: terms of like attitudes towards democracy and attitudes towards the 518 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: nature of like the state, that we're very progressive and 519 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: very powerful and very popular. Um. And they do get 520 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's important to understand both that like the 521 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: Nazism was not inevitable, the regressivism and the violence and 522 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: the the the like, that kind of flattening of human 523 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: life under the fascists was not an inevitable progression for Germany. Um. 524 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: But it's equally important to understand that like a tremendous 525 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: so much progress had been made in German culture by 526 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: the period of time when the Nazis rise and it 527 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: does get wiped out, you know, it does not recover 528 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: right away. It's still recovering now still um. And in fact, 529 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: one of the groups of people when when the Allies 530 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: liberate the concentration camps, we don't free imprisoned people. They 531 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: go back to prison because what they were doing was 532 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: still seen as criminal. If you have the is the 533 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: pink triangle, you don't just get out because the Nazis 534 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: because you were in a concentration gap with these other people, 535 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: because the alleys to a large extenter like well that 536 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: was it was okay for them to punish those people. Anyway. 537 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: That's the story. And another interesting thing is like kind 538 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: of on the same note, is that if you look 539 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: through all old German war photography from World War Two, 540 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: you will actually see a higher than average rate of 541 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: men cross dressing inside photos. Now, there's always cross dressing 542 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: during war is not uncommon, especially during performances for like 543 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: theater and stuff, um, because there's not as much women around. 544 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: But specifically comparing like the documentation and of the Nazis 545 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: and all of all of the German soldiers, there was 546 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: like yeah, absolutely higher than average amount of of people 547 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: comfortable cross dressing, despite you know, being a soldier for 548 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: the Nazis. Uh it is. And it's like, yeah, it's 549 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: an interesting thing in terms of how how some of 550 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: those kind of more advanced us and sexuality still carried over, 551 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: um at least like in terms of like gender presentation 552 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: among you know, even even if you fear among this 553 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: genocidal group who's imprisoning gay people by the hundreds of thousands. Um, 554 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: it's it just it just it just it just it 555 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: just like kept happening. Yeah. It also sort of points 556 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: to just like how bad everywhere else was also. Yeah, 557 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: like it's yeah, Berlin just got so progressive that even 558 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: when suppressed, there was enough like stuff there that things 559 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: could kind of there was there was still there was 560 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: still a bit there's still a bit of some remnants. Um. 561 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: And I mean and it still it got it did 562 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: get horribly obliterated, and and we're still recovering now in 563 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: terms of our views and medical knowledge on like gender 564 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: and you know, social contructs, um, susuality, you know, all 565 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. Um. But yeah, the German 566 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 1: law code that made homosexuality illegal, Um, again after it 567 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: was briefly more okay than it had been. Doesn't get 568 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: repealed until Yeah. I mean a lot of a lot 569 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: of sodomy laws do not get repealed until the nineties, 570 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of cases they're actually still around, we 571 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: just don't enforce them, like a lot of this a 572 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: lot of laws that are actually just still just hanging out. 573 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: Texas had anti sodomy laws on the book until a 574 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: two thousand three Supreme Court case invalidated all sodomy laws. Right, 575 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: That's that's why there's something They're still in the books, 576 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: but they but they're now invalid. Yeah, esecute people. Um 577 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Feld was pretty based though, so it was 578 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: fucking rix some pretty based this really interesting stuff. And 579 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: then that's why we wanted to talk about this is 580 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: to kind of show the historical background and show like 581 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: there's a precedent for all of the same stuff happening before. Um, 582 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: and you know, there's ways people have fought fought against 583 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: it back then who didn't necessarily succeed, but also did 584 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: have a lot of progression in a lot of like 585 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: views socially on these types of topics. You know, you 586 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: just need to make sure that you're also very very 587 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: aware of of the rise of fascism and being also 588 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: counter that as well, because they can just do so 589 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: much damage in such a shorthort amount of time, despite 590 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, fifty years of progress. Yeah. Yeah, and I 591 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: think I think understanding the fragility of everything that exists 592 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: that I don't know. I mean that there's this is 593 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, one of one of the sort of American mythosis, right, 594 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: is that like the moral arc of the unit firs 595 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: bence towards progress, then everything is getting better. And that's 596 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: not true. Nope, it's not like every every everything good 597 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: that you see in this world is there because people 598 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: fought for it was, Yeah, and if they lose it 599 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: all goes away. Yeah yeah, we we we absolutely could 600 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: go back. It's like you have that I mean, he 601 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: back pedaled, but you have that Republican uh legislator who 602 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: was like, um, making comments about how he didn't think 603 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: the state should be forced to honor interracial marriages. Um. 604 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, there's people who want to go 605 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: back on all of that stuff, and they could do it. 606 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't even and it doesn't matter. I like when 607 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: people criticize kind of like some of the the attitudes 608 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: we have, the fear we have towards this, Especially on 609 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: on the subreddit, I've seen people be like, well, look, 610 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: these are not popular laws, and it doesn't matter. They 611 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: weren't they were, they weren't as popular. They weren't like 612 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: necessarily all that popular in in in Germany, you know 613 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: when someone like a lot of the thing not specifically 614 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: even talking about what was done to gay people, but 615 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that were done by the 616 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: Nazis were not necessarily popular. It doesn't matter. What matters 617 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: is power, And this like plays into how like what's 618 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: is worth focusing on on electoralism and being like, yeah, 619 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: these laws obviously aren't being uh pushed as far in 620 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: blue states because there's not enough electoral power there. But 621 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that we can flip Texas blue if 622 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: we will. It into being like, there's so many other 623 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: cultural factors that are keeping red states red, and yes, 624 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: of course, ability suppression, all of those things, gerry mandering, 625 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: all these things are contributing factors. But the overall political 626 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: bent of those states right now seems to be pretty 627 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: firm because there's so many people invested in maintaining that power. 628 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: So when we complain about kind of how electoralism is 629 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: not often a super reliable solution to securing these things 630 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: over the long stretches of time. It's more kind of 631 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: talking about that because even though we have you know, 632 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: democrats and power in the executive ranch, and they you know, 633 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: make statements about trying to secure things, they make, they 634 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: make some gestures, they follow through, and those things is 635 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: always so minimum and so bare um, and there's it's 636 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's the thing that like Trump was 637 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: able to do so much um and now we have 638 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: Biden so less willing to use executive powers. Is the 639 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: same thing that like like with with with Obama and 640 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, when the Senate would refuse to put 641 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: through any any candidates, Obama technically had the power could 642 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: because the Senate refused to do to do their job. 643 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: There is a very strock argument that Obama could just 644 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: put someone into the Supreme Court because of the failure 645 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: of what the Senate was doing was specifically doing a 646 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: thing that meant because they were not doing the job 647 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: at all, that he can't get he can't get fully 648 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: put through and we so we could have that could 649 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: have happened and Obama just didn't because you know, you 650 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: want to play, You want to be the good guy, 651 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: like you want to be the person who follows the rules. 652 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: But the other side doesn't care about that. They're not 653 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: playing a genuine game. They're not following the rules. They're 654 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: doing whatever they can to win. So this this isn't 655 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: about being plugged into lefty Twitter. I get almost I 656 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: get almost none of my takes from lefty Twitter. I 657 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: get them from like reading, reading stuff and thinking about 658 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: how electoralism affects all of these issues and where to 659 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: focus my attention because no matter what I say or 660 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: what I do, that's not going to affect whether Texas 661 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: is blew a red. Yeah, and there's this I think 662 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: like one of the things that is an argument against Obama, 663 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, intervening in that way is like, well, that 664 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: would have created precedent that would have like further centralized 665 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: executive power and could have been used by their refused 666 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: to do their job. Yeah, but you know, I mean, 667 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: look at what we got, Look at the Supreme Court 668 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: that we have, which now has a six to three 669 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: bent conservatively. No, there was just another fucking shadow ruling 670 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: today that was about jerrymandering and god I Wisconsin. Um, 671 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: one second, I'll look it up. But yeah, like you're 672 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: you're getting like we're we're already living through that scenario. Um. 673 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: And it's like like in this I meantime terms of 674 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: centraliation to power, like Obama claimed the legal authority to 675 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: kill any man, woman, or child, regardless of their citizenship 676 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: as as a US citizen, without trial the moment they 677 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: left the United States, Like that that is that is 678 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: the that is the authority that he claimed, like when 679 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: you know, in order to introder to run the drone 680 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: assassination program. And it's yeah, so like at that point, 681 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, we we we literally have a person 682 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: who can go I'm going to press a button and 683 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: kill you, like like we might centralize me. Probably, it's 684 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: just I mean, it's it's not even a centralization because 685 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: it was specifically within the context of the Senate not 686 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: doing their job. Um. And it kind of all places 687 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: into like it seems like Democrats are more politically successful 688 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: when they're losing, Like it seems like they want the 689 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: other side to be in power because that's when they 690 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: actually do things politically than when they have power. They're 691 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: just so scared to use it that they don't even 692 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: do anything to really people that much. And and I 693 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: mean this is the other thing is that like, yeah, 694 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: the Democrats like like most of the their actual constitute, 695 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: like they have they have two constituencies, right, they have 696 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,919 Speaker 1: like you know, they have the people they're passing tax 697 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: breaks for, and then they have a bunch of they 698 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: have a bunch of consultants. And the consultants like the 699 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: thing that they care about is campaign donations, right, because 700 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: that's how they get paid. And yeah, hey, guess what 701 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: happens when you're in power. Oh, people don't give you 702 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: any people don't give you much money. That this is 703 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: this is this is a problem to progran into in 704 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: the eighties. They get more power when they're they get 705 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: more money when they're not in power because then they're 706 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: trying to organize to get in power. But then once 707 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: they're in there, it's like, oh, wow, you're not really 708 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: using the same power capabilities that the other side does 709 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: when they're in charge, and they're all willing to play 710 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: dirty politically, and we and for some reason that Democrats 711 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: are not that kind of like they don't like this 712 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: something like they don't actually care about any of this stuff. Right, 713 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: The stuff is useful for them in terms of fundraising, right, 714 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, I don't know, like they they 715 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: don't like if if every trans person in the United 716 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: States was killed, right, the Democrats would be sad for 717 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: a little bit, and then they wouldn't move on. Like 718 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: it's not that's that's that's not a thing that if 719 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: you're in a hard blue state, we know, what's more 720 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: important than actually voting for supportive like this kind of 721 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: stuff is actually just giving trans people money like that 722 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 1: is going to have much more of a positive political effect. 723 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: Is just give trans people money. Whenever you see a 724 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: go fund me for a trans person, donate to that instead. 725 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: That's gonna have a much more uh lasting effect than 726 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: voting if you're in you know, New York or if 727 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: you're in Oregon, right, because like that those states are 728 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: they're they're gonna be blue. That's always gonna happen, um. 729 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: But other states like uh like I Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, 730 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: like these are gonna be red states like there's and 731 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: as much as we would be nice if yeah, if 732 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: Democratic senators and and people in the House were in 733 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: there instead, then yeah, these trans pips probably wouldn't be 734 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: happening as much, but that's not gonna happen. So if 735 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: that's not going to happen, we should focus on other 736 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: ways to do that politically. And yeah, sure fixing jerymandering 737 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: will be great, but I don't think you need me 738 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: to tell you that anyway. We should Probably that's that's 739 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: probably more or less aisode that is as I will 740 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: I will, I will plug next week if similar similar 741 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 1: on a similar train for for kind of talking about 742 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 1: queerness and fascism um, which yeah, we are. We are 743 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: planning it to a two parter, which is a pretty 744 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: going to be extensive deep dive into explaining the curious 745 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: case of Nazi catboys and grisons, Garrison says. We as 746 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: if any of the rest of us had any choice 747 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: in this, Garrison Garrison forced this on us through violence. Yes, 748 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: but yes, we will be talking about this, which kind 749 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: of touch us on some similar topics in terms of 750 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: like gender and sexuality and how it intersects with politics 751 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: and how there can be you know, seemingly contradictory claims 752 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: that you know, game Nazis and all that kind of stuff. 753 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: So similar, similar train will be kind of discussing that 754 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: and how that works. Um. But yeah, this is a 755 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: end of trends week. Honestly at this point that's we're ending. 756 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: As we're ending it. I'm kind of more optimistic than 757 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: I what than I than I was when we started 758 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: trans weak um, in terms of like watching kind of 759 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: how some some of these bills have played out, how 760 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: some of them were not We're not fully carried through. Um, 761 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,439 Speaker 1: there is protests and stuff being organized. I know for March. 762 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: I believe it's March thirty one, which is a trans 763 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: Day of Visibility. There's gonna be protests in a lot 764 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,839 Speaker 1: of conservative states. Um, I know there's gonna be let 765 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: me let me actually let me check because I know 766 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: there's there's gonna be there's gonna be multiple, multiple things happening, 767 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: and I will I'm gonna be trying to I'm gonna 768 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: try to be in Idaho next next week for that 769 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: because there's going to be a protest in Boisy, which 770 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: I think Boise, Idaho, that's the place. But there's gonna 771 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:05,919 Speaker 1: be Yeah, there's gonna to be events in Austin, Tallahassee, Montgomery. Um, 772 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: so yeah, I will look up tear it Up dot 773 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: org for events. For info on all of the events 774 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: at different at different in different states. For for trans 775 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: Day of Visibility March March one, and Yeah, be gay, 776 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: do crime, Yeah, throw bricks at transphobs, Yeah, all that stuff. 777 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 778 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 779 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on 780 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 781 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 782 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 783 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening,