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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're blowing

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Speaker 1: up our entire show format to bring you a very

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Speaker 1: long interview with USA Today columnist Christine Brennan. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you've been following along, the WNBA Players Association specifically called

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Speaker 1: out Brennan, requesting that her credentials be revoked and criticizing

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Speaker 1: an interview that she did with Sun player DJ Carrington.

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Speaker 1: Carrington made contact with phenom Caitlin Clark with a hand

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Speaker 1: to the eye while reaching to deflect a pass in

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Speaker 1: Game one of the Sun Fever opening round series. Here's

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Speaker 1: that exchange between Brennan and Carrington, Djday.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did you when you went and kind of swatted

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Speaker 2: at Caitlin, did you intend to hit her in the eye?

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Speaker 2: And if so, could you just or if not, either way,

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Speaker 2: could you talk about what happened on that play.

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Speaker 3: I just I don't even know why I would intend

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Speaker 3: to hit anybody in the eye.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't even make sense to me.

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Speaker 3: But no, I didn't. I didn't know I hit her. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I was trying to make a play on the ball

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Speaker 3: and I guess I follow it through and I hit her.

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Speaker 3: So obviously it's never intentional. That's not even like the

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Speaker 3: type of player that I am.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, did you and Marina kind of laugh about

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Speaker 2: it afterwards? It looked like you there was later on

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Speaker 2: the game they caught you guys laughing about it.

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Speaker 3: No, I just told you I didn't even know I

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Speaker 3: hit her, so I can't laugh about something I didn't

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Speaker 3: know happened. Now.

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Speaker 1: While that specific interview and the Players Association calling out

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Speaker 1: Brennan has been the focus of much of the conversation lately,

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Speaker 1: we actually invited her on the show before the WNBPA statement.

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Speaker 2: Her larger body.

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Speaker 1: Of work around Caitlin Clark and the league this season

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Speaker 1: was something I thought was worth addressing with her, including

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Speaker 1: whether or not she's aware of how her intent may

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Speaker 1: not align with her impact in such a fraud space,

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Speaker 1: and what responsibility journalists have in minimizing harm to the

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Speaker 1: players they cover. It's a long conversation, so buckle up.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear the interview after the break. She's been the

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Speaker 1: national sports columnist at USA Today since nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: a TV sports commentator on multiple outlets, and the.

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Speaker 2: Author of seven books.

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Speaker 1: She was the first few sports reporter for the Miami

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Speaker 1: Herald in nineteen eighty one, the first woman at the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post on the Washington football team beat in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five, and the first president of the Association for

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Speaker 1: Women in Sports Media in nineteen eighty eight. She's currently

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Speaker 1: writing a book on Kaitlyn Clark to be published in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. It's Christine Brennan. Christine, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Sara, my pleasure. Thank you so much. Great to see

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Speaker 2: you again. So I want to start.

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Speaker 1: You've been on my old shows a million different times,

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Speaker 1: talking about a ton of different sports. You've been a

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Speaker 1: national multi sport columnists for decades with experience covering athletes

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Speaker 1: from all over the sports world. But you're relatively new

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Speaker 1: to this WNBA beat in your capacity for the USA

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Speaker 1: Today columns that you're writing. Are you sort of on

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Speaker 1: the WNBA beat or more of a Kitlyn Clark.

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Speaker 2: Focus there for the for the paper. Great question. So

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Speaker 2: I was not covering women's basketball. I'm not credentialed to

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Speaker 2: cover the women's Final four either of the last two years.

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Speaker 2: My colleagues were there and they did a great job.

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Speaker 2: But I started watching, of course, as I think most

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've always watched and I've covered many Women's

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Speaker 2: final fours and NCAA tournaments going back to Don Staley,

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Speaker 2: which I reminded her of recently at the Washington Post.

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Speaker 2: You know, Virginia teams that she was on. But I

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Speaker 2: hadn't been credentialed for a while, which is fine, Like

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Speaker 2: I was going to Masters and so you know this,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm headed to Augusta. So the Women's Final four.

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Speaker 2: But of course I was watching it and watching for many,

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Speaker 2: many years. But the last couple of years, of course,

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Speaker 2: with those incredible TV ratings and all the conversation about

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Speaker 2: Caitlin Clark and IOWA and of course LSU and Angel

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Speaker 2: Reese and LSU winning that title and then going into

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Speaker 2: the last year, and of course South Carolina beating Iowa

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Speaker 2: and all the things that happened. Amazing, right, eighteen point

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Speaker 2: nine million, Yeah, unbelievable. I think it was exactly or

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Speaker 2: close to exactly four million more than the men. Truly,

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Speaker 2: I never thought I would ever be able to say

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Speaker 2: that sentence, you know, covering sports as I have for

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Speaker 2: forty three and covering women's sports and fighting those battles.

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Speaker 2: So I've been watching it and aware of it as

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Speaker 2: far as I wrote a column in February. It was

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Speaker 2: my first column ever on Caitlyne Clark. I did not

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Speaker 2: ask her a question till June when they came here

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Speaker 2: to Washington, and when Indiana was here at Washington, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't actually shake her hand or meet her until

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Speaker 2: the Olympic swimming trials were in Indy. I remember seeing that, yes,

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Speaker 2: he had not been in Indie. I would never have

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Speaker 2: met or talked to Caitlin Clark, you know, in terms

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Speaker 2: of actually meeting her or asking a question, because I

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Speaker 2: covered two fever games because USA Today wanted me to

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Speaker 2: cover those games while I was at the swimming as

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Speaker 2: of course did quite a few other people going over,

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Speaker 2: especially the Sunday afternoon of I think was Father's Day

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Speaker 2: was Chicago sky at Fever, and of course that was

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Speaker 2: the intense interest in that, and then went and covered

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Speaker 2: you know, Katie Ledecki and everybody at night. So bottom

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Speaker 2: line is I wrote a commn in February, I wrote

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Speaker 2: a column in April wrote yeah, I wrote a column

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Speaker 2: on the day of the first game, which was May fourteenth,

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Speaker 2: and Riucada, which was a one mostly title nine or later.

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Speaker 2: Just this coming of age, in this moment in sports

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Speaker 2: and then then the Mystics game, I wrote one. I

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Speaker 2: think I wrote a column on that, or maybe that

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Speaker 2: was in the height of some of the post Kennedy

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Speaker 2: Carter foul and all the things that had happened there.

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Speaker 2: So I wrote about that that day and then went.

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Speaker 1: To so is this a directive of the of the

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Speaker 1: That's all I was wondering, is like, is USA today

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Speaker 1: when you're like pitching them, are are you pitching them

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to do this coverage of this superstar

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Speaker 1: rookie that's bringing all these eyeballs or is it more

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Speaker 1: of a w NBA focus that ends up focusing a

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Speaker 1: lot on the changes that happened as a result of

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Speaker 1: her arrival.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, good question. The first one February it was

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Speaker 2: also about the Olympic team, and I have so many

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Speaker 2: Olympic sources. So USA today I probably you know, you

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Speaker 2: talk to.

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Speaker 1: Editors, natural intersection there.

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Speaker 2: I didn't just like chat about that then. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think each one would have been conversations with editors a

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Speaker 2: little bit and very mutual, you know, in other word's

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Speaker 2: like do you want to do this, yes? Or I

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Speaker 2: come to them, I'd like to do this.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Obviously in the midst of this, I'm writing, you know,

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Speaker 2: more columns about golf, and of course more columns yeah.

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Speaker 1: All the other the other sports that you've been at forever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's been interesting to watch this year. You know.

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Speaker 1: When the season started, a whole lot of the sort

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Speaker 1: of newer to the w folks who hadn't watched a

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Speaker 1: lot of WNBA basketball, including a lot of men's players

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Speaker 1: and talking heads, reacted to the league's physical play and

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Speaker 1: the trash talk with a lot of kind of pearl

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Speaker 1: clutching about it being too violent or accusations that some

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Speaker 1: players were jealous of the attention that Kaitlyn Clark was.

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Speaker 2: Getting and creating this narrative.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of been a through line

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Speaker 1: for the season, this narrative that got started that was

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Speaker 1: that players, veteran players, particularly black players, were targeting Kaitlyn Clark,

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Speaker 1: and over the course of the season, that resulted in

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Speaker 1: a lot of coverage of plays involving Clark that look

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Speaker 1: a whole lot like other games, and plays that get

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Speaker 1: ignored right, that display the same toughness and competitive play

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Speaker 1: the tempers you've seen in sport, like there are actual

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Speaker 1: fights in the w NBA, but flagrant fowls or incidental

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Speaker 1: content plays on Kaitlyn Clark are sort of treated as

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Speaker 1: outside the game of basketball, and listening to folks like

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Speaker 1: Sue Byrd say how insulting it is for athletes to

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Speaker 1: be first of all, for folks to arrive and not

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Speaker 1: recognize that that kind of play is pretty common in

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Speaker 1: the W but also to presume that athletes are trying

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Speaker 1: to injure other athletes. And one of those plays actually

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Speaker 1: happened recently. There's a play between Kaitlyn Clark and dj

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Speaker 1: A Carrington of the Connecticut Sun, and you know, resulted

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Speaker 1: in a black eye, and there was this conversation around

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Speaker 1: around intention. You actually interviewed dj A Carrington about this.

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Speaker 1: What was your intent in asking her if the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote swat at Caitlyn was intentional?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So I was credentialed for both Game one

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Speaker 2: and Game two by USA today, So I think we've

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Speaker 2: discussed this. I am writing an unauthorized book on Kitlyn

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Speaker 2: Clark and this moment in women's sports. The title will

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Speaker 2: be on her game, Kitlyn Clark and the Revolution of

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Speaker 2: Women's Sports for Scribner, and Scribner came to me and

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Speaker 2: and It was put together in July, and I signed

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Speaker 2: the contract August fifteenth, after I got back from the

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Speaker 2: Paris Olympics, so you know pretty quick. And of course

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Speaker 2: that's public and it is unauthorized, and by that I

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Speaker 2: think probably people don't know it might sound ominous or something.

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Speaker 2: It means I am not working with Kaitlyn Clark and

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Speaker 2: Kate is not working with me. It is a journalistic

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Speaker 2: look at this time title nine Iowa Women's basketball, the

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Speaker 2: history that led to this moment, Caitlyn Clark, and of

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Speaker 2: course i'venue read so many people for the book already

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Speaker 2: and we'll keep doing it, including doctor Harry Edwards. He

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Speaker 2: is going to be a big part of the book.

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Speaker 2: I think many people know him, what a wonderful, dear

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Speaker 2: friend he is and just an incredible advocate civil rights.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the nineteen sixty eight Black Power salute of

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Speaker 2: Carlos and Smith on the metal stand, and that's of

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Speaker 2: course they're great friendship and the leadership of doctor Harry Edwards,

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Speaker 2: and that Timika Catching's, Eliah Austin's in the book, Kate Martin,

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Speaker 2: of course, Kitlyn Clark, and but it's important to say

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Speaker 2: that Sarah because I'm doing this book. USA Today asked

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Speaker 2: me could I cover and write two columns, you know,

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Speaker 2: game game one and Game two, and that I was

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Speaker 2: happy to do that. I was on my own dime

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Speaker 2: because I'm traveling for the book, and so that was

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Speaker 2: helpful or whatever for USA Today that I could be

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Speaker 2: there and cover it for them. So that was I

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Speaker 2: was credential for USA Today. That doesn't mean it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: go in the book or not go in the book,

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Speaker 2: but I was credential and working for USA Today. So

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Speaker 2: that the incident whatever we would call it with Caitlin

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Speaker 2: Clark down and her eye and then the black eye

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Speaker 2: occurred what ninety seconds into that first game, And then

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Speaker 2: that was Sunday. Then Monday was an off day. We

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Speaker 2: didn't have any access to to anyone the players. So

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Speaker 2: Tuesday now we've got availability with both Connecticut and Indiana

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Speaker 2: and Dje Carrington, I think others had requested her as well.

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Speaker 2: And here she comes over to talk to us, and

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Speaker 2: she answers a few questions, and I then, of course

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Speaker 2: ask her a question that I would ask a hundred

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Speaker 2: times out of one hundred and have a thousand times

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Speaker 2: out of a thousand or more of any athlete an

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Speaker 2: issue in the news, give them a chance to respond,

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. It's a conduit for them to

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Speaker 2: take it and run with it, to deal with an

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Speaker 2: issue that is out there. And clearly this was in

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Speaker 2: the news, right I couldn't I'm not even on Twitter

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Speaker 2: that much, and I couldn't avoid it as looking at

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Speaker 2: all kinds of not people tweeting it at me, but

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Speaker 2: just in general replays, you're aware of all your viewers

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Speaker 2: and listeners here are aware of the various replays. There

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Speaker 2: were also pictures or videos of some laughter with Carrington

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Speaker 2: and Marina Maybray. And you know what you do as

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Speaker 2: a journalist. You ask the question and you give them

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Speaker 2: a chance to take it and run with it. And

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what was my intention. That's exactly what I did.

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Speaker 2: Obviously there's been a lot of attention on it afterwards,

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Speaker 2: but it's journalism one oh one for me, Sarah, And

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Speaker 2: that's as I said, you know, I've asked those questions

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Speaker 2: of Michael Phelps. I've asked them again as Tiger Will

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Speaker 2: asked them if at the Master's one year his doctor

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Speaker 2: had been the assistant for his doctor had been arrested

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Speaker 2: at the border of the Canada US border with the

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Speaker 2: illegal you know, banned substances in other words, like steroids,

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Speaker 2: And I asked Tiger that question about his doctor and

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Speaker 2: illegal drugs and steroids at the Master's. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: never going to shy away from asking any question of

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Speaker 2: any athlete, and I'm happy.

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Speaker 3: To do it.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned journalism one oh one, though, I mean,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be considered a leading question to ask if

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Speaker 1: it was intentional instead of asking her, can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about the play?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I said whether it was intentional or not,

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Speaker 2: because that was an issue that was out there. And

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Speaker 2: then didn't I say could you walk us? I think

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Speaker 2: I'd have to look at well.

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Speaker 1: Then she said that she didn't intend to hit her

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Speaker 1: and didn't know that she had made contact with her.

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Speaker 1: And then your follow up was if she was later

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Speaker 1: laughing about it. But if she didn't know she had

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Speaker 1: hit her, how would she be laughing about an incident

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Speaker 1: she wasn't aware of.

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Speaker 2: Right, That's a very good and it's why you asked

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Speaker 2: the question, in my humble opinion, to give her the

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Speaker 2: chance to deal with To me, the two different and

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Speaker 2: many people obviously, the two different issues. You've got the one,

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Speaker 2: the one the actual black eye, right, and whatever happened

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Speaker 2: with that? And you can hear me trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out what word to say, like I'm trying to be

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Speaker 2: I said, swatted, I believe, right, but I wasn't even

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Speaker 2: quite sure how to address it with her to be

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Speaker 2: fair and to have a conversation, which of course is

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Speaker 2: what we do in journalism, is just you ask questions.

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Speaker 1: Did it seem like a play outside of basketball play too,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm wondering. To me, it looked like a

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Speaker 1: play where she was trying to deflect a pass and

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Speaker 1: made contact. It sounds more like your questions by asking

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Speaker 1: if it was intentional that maybe you saw something different.

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Speaker 2: No, I had no idea, That's why I asked yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then but you asked about the second one. Again,

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Speaker 2: there's videos and I know it's three to the dome

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Speaker 2: and all that, but but you give the athlete a chance. Again,

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Speaker 2: you just give them a chance that you can hit

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Speaker 2: that out of the park, you know, and and say

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Speaker 2: just answer the question. Well, I'm her a chance to

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Speaker 2: answer the question because it was running rampant on the

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Speaker 2: internet of what that was. And so again you know,

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Speaker 2: that's just to me, that's absolute journalism one oh one.

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Speaker 2: And in the sense that it's out there, so let's

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Speaker 2: ask the athlete so that they can clear the area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that, like giving an athlete an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to speak to something, particularly something that's gotten that big

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Speaker 1: on the internet, is super important. But I think also

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Speaker 1: the language that you use is important. So by asking

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Speaker 1: if it's intentional, you're already sort of leading them into that.

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Speaker 1: And same goes with the video of them laughing. You

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Speaker 1: said they caught you guys laughing. You know, were you

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Speaker 1: laughing about that? It was three quarters later after the

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Speaker 1: player had hit a big three.

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Speaker 2: Why would they be.

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Speaker 1: Laughing about an incident involving an injury to a player

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Speaker 1: three quarters earlier.

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Speaker 2: In that moment? I don't know. That's why I asked.

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Speaker 2: And again, these are issues that were out there that

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Speaker 2: I would ask about and I have asked. Right, it's,

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Speaker 2: for gosh, asking a very valid question. Just I want

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Speaker 2: to make it as crystal clear as possible. You often

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Speaker 2: you can bring up the topics, so you ask it

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Speaker 2: so that whatever the issue is, so that the athlete

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Speaker 2: knows exactly. I'm never going to beat around the bush

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Speaker 2: and you know that about me. I think everyone knows

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Speaker 2: that about me, And so like, let's go right to

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Speaker 2: the issue and you get a chance. I respect DJ

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Speaker 2: Carrington so much that she gets a chance to answer it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the issue is like operating in

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Speaker 1: a vacuum versus understanding the larger context. Right, So if

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Speaker 1: you believe that that's a fair approach to get the

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Speaker 1: answer that you're looking for, and you believe that's the

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Speaker 1: best way to ask the question to get the truthful

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Speaker 1: response and not something defensive or something otherwise, I kind

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Speaker 1: of disagree. I think you could say people have turned

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Speaker 1: that play into something that was intentional. What would you

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Speaker 1: say to accusations that that was intentional? Or you know,

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Speaker 1: why do you think people would presume that a video

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Speaker 1: of you laughing later was a response to a play

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Speaker 1: three quarters earlier, particularly when it's a known celebration of

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Speaker 1: three to the dome after a made three from your teammate, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a way to word it that feels

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Speaker 1: less accusatory.

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Speaker 2: But also when you're operating in the.

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Speaker 1: Context of a season like this one in the w

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Speaker 1: there is so much that comes along with the questions

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Speaker 1: that you're asking and the way that they will affect

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Speaker 1: the player that you're asking them of.

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Speaker 2: Did you consider that at all in.

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Speaker 1: That moment, that because the Internet had run rampant, because

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Speaker 1: there were people trying to slow mow the video and

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Speaker 1: accuse her of intention on that play, that your approach

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Speaker 1: to asking the question might actually perpetuate some of the

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Speaker 1: things that had resulted in her getting death threats and

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Speaker 1: other responses.

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Speaker 2: Sarah I said this on the the other day with

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Speaker 2: Jake Taper on CNN. I'll say it now, the Internet

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Speaker 2: and specifically Twitter acts, you know, all these other things too,

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Speaker 2: but I think twitters, but I think we can agree

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Speaker 2: that that's, you know, probably the worst. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a cesspool. It's terrible for you, it's terrible for me.

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Speaker 2: But here we are two white women. There is no

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Speaker 2: way on earth we can know what it's like to

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Speaker 2: be a black woman and be attacked on Twitter. But

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Speaker 2: I know what it's like for me, and I know

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Speaker 2: what it's like for you know what it's like for you,

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Speaker 2: And I think you and I've talked about this in

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Speaker 2: the past, and you know, it's awful. It's just terrible.

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Speaker 2: It's awful. That is a fact, it is a sad

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Speaker 2: fact of our society today. I think we can probably

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Speaker 2: all agree that the leadership of Twitter x has done

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Speaker 2: an absolutely horrible job over these what years.

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Speaker 1: But these things are extending beyond social media. Because I

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Speaker 1: know what you're saying, and I completely agree with you.

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Speaker 1: There is not a lot of ways to control those

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Speaker 1: things except to say that the media can perpetuate those

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Speaker 1: narratives online by asking those questions or by setting things

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Speaker 1: up to continue those discussions.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And also, these players this year in the w have

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Speaker 1: talked about people showing up at their hotels, people sending

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Speaker 1: materials of their family members, like it's gone beyond just

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Speaker 1: sort of internet trolling. Right, And in fact, clearly the

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Speaker 1: League Players Association felt similarly because after that interviewed, the

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Speaker 1: WNBA Players Association had Terry Jackson released a statement alleging

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Speaker 1: that your line of questioning was intended to quote bit

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Speaker 1: a professional athlete into participating in a narrative that is

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Speaker 1: false and designed to fuel racist, homophobic, and misogynistic vitriol

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Speaker 1: on social media end quote, and they requested that your

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Speaker 1: credentials be revoked as a result. What was your reaction

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Speaker 1: to that and did you see or understand it all

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Speaker 1: why they would believe that your question was causing an

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Speaker 1: athlete to participate in that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in a hotel room and was heading

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Speaker 2: to the airport and someone texted it to me. Or

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Speaker 2: the first it's like a five page or five post

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Speaker 2: quote panel. Yeah, yeah, so I think it was the first.

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Speaker 2: What was the first one? And of course I take

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Speaker 2: everything seriously and take everything to heart, you know, that's

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Speaker 2: what I do, That's who I am. And I looked

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Speaker 2: at it and around the same time I was giving

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Speaker 2: it a you know, a real look and reading all

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Speaker 2: five panels. Sarah, my sports editor, Roxanna Scott got in

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Speaker 2: touch with me and said, let's talk about this, and

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if I talked to her, maybe

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Speaker 2: in the car a little bit, and then I said,

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Speaker 2: got jumped out of the car, got to the airport

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Speaker 2: and we continued the conversation, and then Roxanna Scott put

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Speaker 2: out that very very strong defense of me and journalism

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Speaker 2: and asking questions and and so that was that was

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Speaker 2: That was basically it. So you were asking a very

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Speaker 2: very fair question of my reaction, and I certainly was surprised.

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Speaker 2: I didn't take it lightly. I would never take that lightly.

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Speaker 2: As I said a few moments ago, I was surprised

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Speaker 2: to hear from in this case, the Players Association, Terry Jackson,

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Speaker 2: whomever you know that that they want to ban me,

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Speaker 2: is you know it's it's I thought it was a

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Speaker 2: complete overreaction. I think many many people in journalism thought

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Speaker 2: the exact same thing as we seen in columns and responses.

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Speaker 2: And that's fine, and I'm heartened by that. And if

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Speaker 2: people think it's fine and I should be banned, that's

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Speaker 2: of course, it's a free country they can say that.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it certainly surprised me.

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Speaker 1: We got to take a quick break when we come

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Speaker 1: back more with Christine Brennan. It felt like a lot

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Speaker 1: of responses to folks reacting to the WNBPA statement were

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Speaker 1: specific to that incident, and they certainly did point to

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Speaker 1: that incident as the issue. But you know, over the

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Speaker 1: course of the season, I think there's a body of

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Speaker 1: coverage that I think people react to, and it feels

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Speaker 1: to me like there's been a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: thesis that you've had and tried to prove throughout the season,

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Speaker 1: and that maybe that's been something that's influenced your questions

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Speaker 1: and coverage because that piece that you mentioned writing back

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Speaker 1: in April, the season hadn't started, the games hadn't been played,

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Speaker 1: and you wrote that players were being frosty to Caitlin Clark,

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Speaker 1: but you mentioned that you hadn't spoken to Kitlyn Clark yet, right, So,

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Speaker 1: Liberties Brina Stewart and The Mercury's Dna Trosti in particular,

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Speaker 1: you disagreed with and Stuart's opinion that in order to

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Speaker 1: be one of the greatest players in college hoops, Clark

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Speaker 1: would have had to win a title. And you disagreed

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Speaker 1: with Dina Trossi saying that she would pick Pagebackers over

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Speaker 1: Kaitlyn Clark with the number one pick in the draft

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Speaker 1: in one of her Bird and Trossi multicasts.

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Speaker 2: Those are opinions.

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Speaker 1: And Stuart did also give you a quote that Caitlyn

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Speaker 1: is a star and we're excited to have her in

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Speaker 1: the WNBA. She's unquestionably great for what she has accomplished

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Speaker 1: on and off the court end quote. So why did

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Speaker 1: you feel like those established players were required to have

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Speaker 1: different opinions than those in order to prove that they

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Speaker 1: understood the benefits that Clark would bring, or in order

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Speaker 1: to say that they weren't being frosty to her, Well, it's.

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Speaker 2: A column, first of all, right, so I'm paid to

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Speaker 2: give my opinion, and I would say that the word

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Speaker 2: frosty would be one of the columnst words I've used

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Speaker 2: in a column on topics over the years. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not being flip, but you know, you know, I'll give

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Speaker 2: my opinion. If people are going to spend three, four, five, six, whatever,

435
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 2: seven eight minutes whatever it takes to read a column,

436
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 2: they're going to get my best shot. And so that

437
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 2: one you did mention those two example and by the way,

438
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 2: you know, they had every right to say it, but

439
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 2: of course I have a right to critique it, of course, right, yeah,

440
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: of course, But even the one I think that was

441
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,439
Speaker 2: even you know, I think I also put this in

442
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: the column. I haven't read the column in a while,

443
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure that that I did. This, of course,

444
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,719
Speaker 2: was add the thing about reality is coming right now,

445
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 2: Diana TROSSI was asked by Scott van Pell, who's a friend,

446
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 2: of course, a friend of yours, who I'm sure asked

447
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 2: about that. And it wasn't just Caitlin Clark, it was

448
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: the other players, right, And I point that out on

449
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 2: the column. Of course, it was like this rookie class

450
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 2: is coming, and then of course, Diana trust the reality

451
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: is coming, and you know they're going to realize they're

452
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: going up against grown women and everyone knows that that statement.

453
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 2: So to me, what I saw, as an observer and

454
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: doing this for a long time was, as I said,

455
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: frosty was I thought actually a kind word, you know,

456
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 2: I thought it was the appropriate word. That's why I

457
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: used it to describe the feeling that these players, at

458
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: least these two seemed to have. Well. Sue Bird was

459
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: the opposite of that. Like Sue Bird said, she would

460
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: have taken Caitlin, and of course Tarazzi. Who's Tarazi? And

461
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 2: I certainly know well, I don't know her well, but

462
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 2: I know of her well, right, was being very clipped

463
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: with her answer next question, You know, so DISI of Kaitlin.

464
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: It's fine again, Dinah Rossi is a grown adult and

465
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 2: has done this for years, and so for me, it's

466
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: just looking at that as a snapshot. And I was

467
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 2: surprised because what we had seen over the many months

468
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: of with Caitlin Clarke, with the records and the adoration,

469
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: all of a sudden it was like, Wow, this is

470
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 2: a bit of a turn, which I think is absolutely accurate,

471
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: and that's fine. Again, I mean, anyone can say anything, obviously,

472
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: that's you know, it's I'm fair game, everyone's fair game.

473
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: Bring it on, right, But but isn't it go ahead?

474
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: But to characterize it because you wrote in the column like,

475
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: isn't this a sign that women's sports have grown to

476
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: the point where older players can mistreat younger players? Did

477
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: you feel like it was mistreating Caitlin Clark to have

478
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: a different opinion about whether you could call someone a

479
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: great without a title, or mistreating her to say something

480
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: we always hear, which is like, yeah, these rookies are

481
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: going to figure out this is a whole new ballgame.

482
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, well I wrote it, so I obviously felt

483
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: that way. Sure. By the way, the question to Brianna

484
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: Stewart that I believe was asked by Nicole Auerbach was

485
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 2: does Caitlyn Clark need to have a title to be

486
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: considered one of the greats? Yeah, which I mean you

487
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: and I probably sitting here right now could come up

488
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 2: with fifty or one hundred great one of the greats.

489
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: Right, I mean that's semantics though, I mean we know

490
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: that that's semantics, right.

491
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: It's the difference between the goat.

492
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 1: I mean, even when we talk about the goat, people

493
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: will sometimes have multiple goats, which then completely removes the

494
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: meaning of the language that you're using.

495
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 2: So I get that.

496
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: I guess what I wasn't I guess what I'm no, no, no,

497
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: I know it wasn't. I'm saying greats. It's a semantics.

498
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: You could be talking one hundred, you'd be talking five.

499
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 1: In the end, though, why is Brianna Stewart's opinion on

500
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: that being mistreating to.

501
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: A younger player? I guess That's what I'm trying to

502
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: get it. It feels to me.

503
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: Like in sports we see the all the time, the

504
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: veterans tell the rookies, we're going to show you what's up.

505
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: This is a whole new ball game.

506
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: This is a different level of play, particularly the W

507
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: which we have so many conversations about expansion being necessary

508
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: because great college players either don't even get drafted or

509
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: don't even make a roster.

510
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: Because there's so few spaces.

511
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: So the elevated talent there means that it's particularly tough

512
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: to stay in it, stick around and thrive. That feels

513
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: like just standard sports conversation. I think that's part of

514
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: the problem that I've seen in this season is we're

515
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: having a different conversation about this league, in this particular

516
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: set of women, than we are about any other league

517
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: in sports. And you know, you've made such a career

518
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: of holding people accountable, of taking you know, speaking truth

519
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: to power. You've written about Colin Kaepernick's protest, You've written

520
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: about the NFL's failures across a number of spaces. I

521
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: had you on my show a million times to talk about,

522
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, the way the NFL would drop the ball

523
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: on domestic violence, sexual assault, racism, And you're so used

524
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: to push back from the powers that be and having

525
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: to stand up for stuff that isn't always popular when

526
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: people just want to watch their teams, they don't want

527
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: to face the tough realities with sports. And it feels like,

528
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: in contrast, the reaction to a lot of your w

529
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: coverage this year has been that instead of writing to

530
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: all of that, you're writing this sort of vacuum and

531
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: ignoring the bigger issues and how your coverage might be

532
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: contributing to them. To see what I'm saying, like, it's

533
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: okay to say I've asked these questions a million times.

534
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: But if in this instance that question means something different

535
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: because of the context for that team, You're not operating

536
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, and don't you have to consider that

537
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: context as part of your journalistic responsibility when you ask them.

538
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I appreciate the question. I guess I'm

539
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: looking at it a little differently when you've got a

540
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: story like this Caitlin Clark, right, which we cannot deny,

541
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: the TV ratings, the full houses we were on, you know,

542
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: many many calls about it, even if I was if

543
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: I was only writing a couple of columns, as we

544
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: both said, you know on USA Today like planning calls,

545
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: and I literally said, I don't know that I ever

546
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: thought I would see this in my lifetime. Right, that

547
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: eighteen point nine million, right? And of course it was

548
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: don Stay South Carolina team that won the national title.

549
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: Of course, Caitlin Clark, though, is the draw right? I mean,

550
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: we have proven it over and over again with these

551
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: numbers from the WNBA in college you know that it's

552
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: Caitlin's game in the draws for sure. But the biggest draw,

553
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: the biggest draw for well, again, the sellouts, right, I mean,

554
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: Kaitlyn Clark is the only one who's selling out away

555
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: buildings that have to get you.

556
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: Know, right, well, TD Garden sold out and that was

557
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: a game not involving the fever. There are examples, right, exactly,

558
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: But I mean in terms of I mean Washington, right,

559
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 1: you know what's happened, Yeah, I mean, listen, no one's

560
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: arguing Caitlin's dominance in Caitlin's draw. I think the question

561
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: is how do you cover that without contributing to issues

562
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: that have plagued a league for the entirety of its

563
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: existence and or feeding into some of the narratives created

564
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: by folks who haven't been around, you know, stephen A

565
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Smith and folks like that, who are talking about this

566
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: adversary relationship between Clark and her peers that ultimately, once

567
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: it got picked up and run with, has been the

568
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: reason that there has been so much vitriol and the

569
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: literal threats to players. Well, understanding that that context is there,

570
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: doesn't that affect your coverage, even of someone who's doing

571
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: the great things she's doing.

572
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 2: So I can't control what stephen A is saying, right,

573
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: of course, not right, right, But I mean you're asking

574
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: me that that what I could write the sky is blue.

575
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: And you know, no, I'm not asking you to control

576
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: I'm asking if you know that that's making I talk

577
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: about and or.

578
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know what's what's fueling stephen A, who

579
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: I've known forever.

580
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: Right, I'm not talking about stephen A. I'm talking big picture.

581
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: Well, you know again, I'll go back to what I

582
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 2: said a few minutes ago. I was starting to say

583
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: a few minutes ago. So I have always focused on obviously,

584
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, big stories, big news, also the minor story,

585
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: the person who finishes fourth at the Olympics. Right, of course,

586
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: I mean all in a career like mine, you do many, many,

587
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: many things. And so in this case, just like of course,

588
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: covering tiger Woods the length of his career. You know,

589
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: I probably did I write a hundred columns on tiger Woods.

590
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: I don't even know, right I And so I would

591
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: have ignored other people or you know, not dealt with this.

592
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: I mean, unless someone won a tournament, then I'm writing

593
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: about Phil Micholson winning the tournament. Whatever would be so

594
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: to me, whether it was covering Michael Phelps Tiger Woods.

595
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: Katie Ledecki, when you're writing columns about those issues or

596
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: those or those those you know, those sports, Well, Caitlin

597
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: Clark is right in that category, right, So that's yeah,

598
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: for sure. Really it's really simple and each one of

599
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: the I think we're talking four or five columns, So

600
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: just to keep in mind and perspective for you and

601
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: and you know those your listeners and viewers, what you know.

602
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: I wrote the February column, the April column, the May column,

603
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: did one in June, and then I covered those two

604
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: games when I was at the Olympics, at the Olympic

605
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: try and those were on Fever in general, and because

606
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: the Fever won both those games, they'd beat Chicago and

607
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: then they'd be Yeah. And so now we're talking about six.

608
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: I think I just counted six columns from February to January. Well,

609
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'm going to guess, did I

610
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: write what twelve or thirteen on Katie Ladecki.

611
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not so much about the amount of coverage,

612
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: Like I understand, focusing on one superstar that's common, like

613
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: we had landing pages at ESPN for like the Big

614
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: Three in Miami or Lebron James whatever. The focus on

615
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: Caitlin is understandable, especially when you're writing a book like

616
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: that's where you're going to center your coverage. But if

617
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: Clark is the main character in your research and others

618
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: are sort of bit players in the storytelling, are you

619
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: able to see the impact that you might have on

620
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: them by posing questions a certain way. So, for instance,

621
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: in the Fever exit interviews, you asked Temi fact Benley

622
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: whether this season was quote a maybe more fun experience

623
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: than you've had in your career. But she was injured

624
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: for half of the season. She's been on a championship

625
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: season before. So when there's this narrative throughout this league,

626
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: the black players are not treated as well, that they

627
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: have trouble getting the sponsorship deals, that they are not

628
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: given the same highlights, that their highlights are reacted to

629
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: differently than the white players.

630
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: And you know that.

631
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: Coming in, and that's part of the context of covering

632
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: the story, and presumably you understand that, because if you're

633
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: going to tell the story of Kaitlyn Clark, you have

634
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: to include the context of the league that she arrived

635
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 1: in and how it's changing around her, no matter how

636
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: much fun practices might be, no matter how exciting is

637
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: to have Caitlin and have the arenas packed a player

638
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: that missed a half a season for injury.

639
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: Doesn't it feel like that's.

640
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: A little insensitive to ask is this the most fun

641
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: you've ever had before? Like, do you understand how centering

642
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Kaitlin in that context then has an adverse effect on

643
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: the players or for instance, like with the Olympics, I

644
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: understood your push to try to include Caitlin on the team.

645
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: I disagree just because I think the Olympics are a meritocracy.

646
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: It's not about viewers or popularity.

647
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: But you're to Temmy and then let's go there. Oh sure, okay, yeah, yeah.

648
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: So I've spent quite a bit of time talking to Temmy.

649
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: We've talked several times, done some interviews with her about

650
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: her about her injuries, and so we've talked about how

651
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: much fun it is, and so I wanted to make

652
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: sure to get that one more chance of her. So

653
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: that was a very logical question within the context of

654
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: my various conversations getting to know Temmy, meeting her, talking

655
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: to her a couple of times during the season and

656
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,239
Speaker 2: at practice. That's just OK.

657
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: So, maybe just like the of your career was like

658
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: just a way of answering of asking the question.

659
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: Was I don't even remember what I asked, but absolutely,

660
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a fine question and she answered

661
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: it and it wasn't even an issue. You did mention

662
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: a few minutes ago about when you're doing a book

663
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: on Caitlin Clark. I think it's very important to mention

664
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: the timing here, so because Terry Jackson had it wrong

665
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: today in the Washington Post. I talked to her on

666
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: June twenty seventh, and we did an interview. It was

667
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: for USA Today. The first conversation, Sarah that I had

668
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: was Scribner wanting to talk to me. Scribner my publisher,

669
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: by the way, yeah, or you said in August, Yeah, yeah,

670
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: Well I signed the contract August fifteenth. The first conversation

671
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: was a zoom on July tenth. So I was never

672
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: doing a book. Literally, I was not planning to do

673
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: a book I had in June. I had no conversations.

674
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: It was scribnerk wanting to talk right essent July tenth.

675
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: But it's important to say that because I believe there's

676
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: there seems to be amongst some potentially and if not,

677
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: that's great. That sense that I've been like working behind

678
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: the scenes on a book and of course, people you

679
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: and I understand the difference between unauthorized and authorized biography,

680
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: but I don't think a lot of you know, a

681
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: lot of other people might just I know people have said, oh,

682
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: she's working with Caitlin Clark. I am not right, right,

683
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: But that's important, that's a very it is important.

684
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: And listen, Like I said, I'm never going to criticize

685
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: your amount of coverage on Caitlyn Clark. But I guess

686
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: someone who's been in this space for years and understands

687
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: the difference that she's made in it, I am all

688
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: for highlighting her achievements, the attendance, the viewership, all the

689
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: other stuff. I guess part of it is what impact

690
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: do you have on the space in what you're working,

691
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: and what is the journalistic responsibility of the effect you

692
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: have on that space. So Stephanie White spoke about this

693
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: after the game the other day, and I think, you know,

694
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: it was very smart in the way she approached it.

695
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: She talked about basically, you know, when you've got a

696
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: league that is not used to this much coverage and

697
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden these people arrive. What has

698
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: happened is they're letting the internet and the users on

699
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: the internet sort of dictate the story that's being told.

700
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: Here's what the Connecticut Sun coach said.

701
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 1: I think the thing that frustrates me most is that

702
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: we and I say wait because I work in television

703
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: as well, we and the media have to do a

704
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: better job of not allowing trolls on social media to

705
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: become the story. And I feel like we've allowed trolls

706
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: on social media to frame the narrative what the story is.

707
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: I realize everybody's job is predicated on what's read, what's

708
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: clicked on, what's whatever, what's watched. I understand that, but

709
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: I also feel like we have responsibility to be better

710
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: when it comes to what we're representing.

711
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: Unquote.

712
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier when you were asking those questions

713
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: of DJ Carrington, you kept saying, there were these videos, right,

714
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: So that's not the larger game footage.

715
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: That's the videos that are been clipped off.

716
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: In our online that you're reacting to and then asking

717
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: questions about. I get that we all do that, right,

718
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: but what do you think the responsibility is of the

719
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: media when it becomes clear that the way those clips

720
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: and the way that content is framed will very much

721
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: impact not just the treatment of the players, but even

722
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: their safety. You mentioned feeling for black players and understanding

723
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: that we as white women could never understand what their

724
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: experience is. If you understand that and have that empathy

725
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: for them, don't you think journalistically, the idea of minimizing harm,

726
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: of seeking out truth in most honest and good faith way,

727
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: it prioritized that over being able to just say I

728
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: would ask that question a million times and ignoring the

729
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: context within which you're asking it.

730
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a great point. Certainly, it is

731
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: something that I guess every journalist needs to start to

732
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: think about and deal with. Most of us don't, right,

733
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: which is just you ask questions and you see what

734
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: the answers are. So I grant you that point. I

735
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: would say that in the case of almost everything that

736
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: we've all done over the years, we have been certainly

737
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: aware of the criticism, but you know, we're all getting

738
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 2: and of course that means the athletes are getting too.

739
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: Some athletes haven't mentioned it or talked about it, or

740
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: haven't haven't been concerned about or haven't talked or telld

741
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: us about it. Maybe they've had to get security. You know,

742
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: who knows, right, But I think it's something that we

743
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: haven't focused on, uh that much. I will say this,

744
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: I think the league, the w n b A, and

745
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: the NBA as it's as it's you know, big brother

746
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: or whatever whatever the role has been over the years,

747
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: as we know, with the NBA the w n b A,

748
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: I think that my sense would be they would play

749
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: a huge role in not only the security of their players,

750
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: but also the ability to understand and maybe help with

751
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: the media training and or the what was about to

752
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: hit the w n b A and I think we

753
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: can probably agree on this that that what I am

754
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: seeing and I say reporting the book, and of course

755
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: we'll be dealing with all of this, is is that

756
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: the the prize or the lack of understanding of what

757
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: we in the media do, or the lack of preparation

758
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 2: or whatever for this moment which would then include Sarah

759
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 2: to your absolutely great point, the trolls and worse right,

760
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 2: the absolute threats to the security of the players. Why

761
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: was that not thought about by the people who actually

762
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: can control this or at least try to help, or

763
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 2: was it thought about? I mean, I guess we can

764
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: ask Kathy Engelbert.

765
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: So you don't count the media in that no, because.

766
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 2: To me, that's now Sarah, Sarah, I answered your question.

767
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 2: I said at the beginning, you made a great point

768
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: and it's something we should be absolutely thinking. Okay, so

769
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: you know you heard me say that, So I said no.

770
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: Well, because you had said the people who are actually

771
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: in control of and I would make sure you were

772
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: including the media in that because there is a role

773
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: that that plays in accentuating storylines and elevating.

774
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: Oh listen, every second of my life I play the Yeah,

775
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: you know that right right, because I'm a journalists as

776
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: we all are, so without a out, you live and

777
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: you learn. But I would say there's a real, real

778
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: story to be had about was the WNBA prepared for this?

779
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: Were their players prepared for this? With security? All of

780
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: the issues you're describing are very very important issues. There

781
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: is nothing about me, and you know this well that

782
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: would slough off any of the things you're asking me

783
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: or any of the issues we're discussing. And what has

784
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: happened from some out there in terms of their hatred

785
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: of me is fine. It's a free country. They can

786
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: hate me. If this stuff bothered me, I would have

787
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: been hiding under a bed probably in nineteen eighty two

788
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: and never gotten out right. So that's okay, you have

789
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: every right to it, but I think they all need

790
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: to say, you know, you have someone here who has

791
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: cared about this cause, the cause of women's sports, the

792
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: mistreatment of women in terms of lack of media coverage,

793
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: the mainstream sports media right men who always never cared

794
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: about the WNBA or LPGA or never even early days

795
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: of Serena and Venus. I was there. It was us

796
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 2: opens and the race it either with racism or sexism, misogyny.

797
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: I would say that if again, bring it on. If

798
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: you don't like me, that is fine, But I think

799
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: it's pretty important to look at the body of work

800
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: here and five or six columns on Caitlin Clark that

801
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 2: people want to set about. Go ahead and be upset

802
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: about it. It's a free country. But my goodness, you

803
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 2: certainly are missing some of the things that I have

804
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: worked my hardest on and thrown my heart and soul into.

805
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: I completely agree. That's why I'm having you on, Christina.

806
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: I had you on my show so many times because

807
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: you fought the good fight on the tough stuff, and

808
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: it is very hard to put stuff out there and

809
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: have people be critical or give you days, you know.

810
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 2: Be hateful about everything.

811
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: I just think the disconnect is, like all that work

812
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: you just pointed to, all that good stuff that you've done,

813
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: some of your coverage hasn't always aligned with that same

814
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: intent that I feel was there. So let's talk about

815
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: the Olympics for instance. You know, your pursuit or your

816
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: tweets and columns about Caitlin being left off the roster,

817
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: you've sort of focused on the lack of media coverage

818
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: for the US team and how Kaitlyn Clark would have

819
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: changed that, and that they deserved to have more media there.

820
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: They deserve to have more coverage, and your focus was

821
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: on how USA Basketball should be the one required to

822
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: fill the press box by putting Kaitlyn in there instead

823
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: of calling out the press to give the team the

824
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: coverage that it is long deserved. This is a case

825
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: where Caitlyn wasn't able to participate in any of the

826
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: practices in camps and the rest of the Olympic cycle.

827
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: That's been the norm forever, So that would be really

828
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: going outside of the regular principles and regulations and rules

829
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: that they've used in previous years to select the team.

830
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: And then also you're alleging that's then on the onus

831
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: side of the basketball team to take merit out of

832
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: it and instead focus on eyeballs, which to me feels

833
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: like more a plea to the media to cover the

834
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: team that does exist, regardless of other Caitlin's on it.

835
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be more in line with your fight for

836
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: women's sports.

837
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: Well, I've got a lot to say about this, as

838
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: you well know, you're the Olympic. I think I am

839
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: the only person probably you could find who's still vertical

840
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: and on this side of the ground, who has covered

841
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 2: and been involved with as a journalist every US women's

842
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: Olympic basketball team since nineteen eighty four. And of course

843
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: I put that I've written by the way, I think

844
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: it was two columns on this right too, so one I.

845
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: Mean, I think social media. You keep pointing that out.

846
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: Social media matters too, right, Like the kind of nippicked

847
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: at Cheryl Reeve, even though she doesn't ultimately pick the roster,

848
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: there's been moments that.

849
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 2: You made your opinion clear. Well, we'll get back. Let's

850
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 2: go to Cheryl Reeve. Cheryl Reeve, I gave her, by

851
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: the way, five straight days. I asked her to speak

852
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: to me, and she's going to talk to me for

853
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: the book after she said after the season we had

854
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: a very nice conversation meeting. She was tweeting about a

855
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: twenty two year old as a fifty seven year old woman.

856
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: That's you know, that's that's something. And she also was

857
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: tweeting about and focusing on Caitlyn Clark while Kaitlyn Clark

858
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: was still in this selection pool for the team that

859
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 2: she is not choosing, of course, but she will be coaching.

860
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: That is a valid question a hundred times out of

861
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 2: one hundred, Sarah, about what's going on with that? Why

862
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: is Cheryl Reeve tweeting talking about her at all?

863
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: That's a thing she was advocating for her own players

864
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: not being included in promotional materials and not really.

865
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: Why did she bother to mention and and focus on

866
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: Caitlyn and then reply, As you saw, there was a

867
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: fan or someone on Twitter that said, well, that's the

868
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: illusion the alluding to.

869
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: All that Isn't that what you've been arguing this whole time,

870
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: that Caitlyn Clark is different and that's the focus. And

871
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: that's what Cheryl was arguing, is like she's different, and

872
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: that's the focus, but not at the expense of my players,

873
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: who also should be you know, we should be able

874
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: to watch the game. Like doesn't that feel like a

875
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: natural thing that a coach would advocate for as the

876
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: coach of the links that it would be about other

877
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: players in the league and not just the superstar rookie.

878
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: I'll stick with what I'm talking about here. You've got

879
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: the Olympic coach tweeting in at least focusing on somewhat

880
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: negative or at least a negative comment about someone who

881
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 2: was in the selection pool. That is a story any

882
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 2: Olympic journalists would write about any time. That was absolutely

883
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: Now let's go back to because these are incredible points

884
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: and it's a very important topic to me. Let's go

885
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: back to the fact that I have seen the eighty

886
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: four team with Annie Myers and others, eighty eight Teresa

887
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 2: Weatherspoon and I in fact, when people say who else

888
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: is going to be in the interviewed Teresa Weatherspoon, we

889
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: talked all about the eighty eight solo Olympics when I

890
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: saw her in Indiana on that I think it was

891
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: Father's Day that June game that I was referring to

892
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: a little bit ago interview at Angel Reese, then to

893
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: Angel Reese will be in the book, of course. Then

894
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: ninety two in Barcelona, which was their last loss, which

895
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: is incredible, right, and then ninety six in Atlanta that

896
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: team of course, two thousand in Sydney. I was at

897
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: the gold medal game there two thousand and four, and Athens,

898
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: I was at the gold medal game there. Beijing a

899
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: silver I mean semis our finals there. Twenty twelve London,

900
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: I was absolutely there at the gold medal match and

901
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: twenty six. I believe you, Christine.

902
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: No one is arguing against your incredible Olympic background.

903
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: I'm just asking if I'm a Paris language this is

904
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 2: I get it.

905
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: No, no, I get it. I'm just saying, like I

906
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: want to make sure we get to the now, right.

907
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: But you asked a question. You asked several questions. I'm

908
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: going to answer them for you, and I'm going to

909
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: tell you why I wrote what I wrote. It's important

910
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: to tell you that because, for example, in London in

911
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: twenty twelve, I'm there in the Press Tribune and Bob

912
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: Ryan's way at kind of one end, and Jackie McMullen

913
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 2: or is at the other, and there's the other people there,

914
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: but otherwise it's appalling. There are no reporters, very few reporters.

915
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: And this is what I put in that column in

916
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: June criticizing the decision. It was of course I said that,

917
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: you know, when you look at it's like tumbleweeds, right,

918
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: and then even rio, this team, this is the greatest.

919
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 2: Let's make it crystal clear. I've said it. I'll say

920
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: it again on your show here, Sarah. This team, the

921
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: US women's basketball team, is the greatest, most dominant team

922
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: in any sport, male or female, on the planet, and

923
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: it doesn't get the attention it deserves. There's no doubt

924
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: about that. I think I probably have said that more

925
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: than anyone else. So you know, for whatever that's worth, Okay, yeah,

926
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: for sure, right, okay, but let's put that in there.

927
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: And so the what I said was, you've got an

928
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: attention magnet. I don't know if I wrote it this way.

929
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: I probably said it on some shows. You've got an

930
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: attention magnet the likes of which we have never seen

931
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: before in women's basketball. Caitlin Clark. You put her on

932
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: the team, even if she's playing three minutes, right whatever,

933
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: You put her on the team. Now I understand they

934
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: did not put her on the team. I am a realist.

935
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: I am very much in the real world. But if

936
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: you put her, I have an opinion. I write columns,

937
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 2: some people have some people like them. Oh yeah, right now,

938
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: but we're analyzing them. So let's make sure that that

939
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 2: point is made. And so you put her on the team,

940
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: and you know what happens. For the first time ever,

941
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: ever as someone I was going through the litany, as

942
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: someone who's seen it since eighty four, which is pretty

943
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: much ever in our lifetimes, if someone who has been there,

944
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: you put Caitlin Clark on that team, and you know what,

945
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: Asia Wilson finally gets the incredible attention she deserves, and

946
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: not just from the US media who are coming running

947
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 2: to watch Caitlin Clark. And then, by the way, she's

948
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: sitting the bench and you're seeing this incredible play from

949
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 2: everybody else, right, and they get the attention they deserve.

950
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: Now you can argue with me and say, Christine Brennan

951
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: is nuts. Fine, I mean, I know you're not. You

952
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: may say that you might not. I'm sure there are

953
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: people growing things that they're wherever their device right now

954
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: going She's no its we agree she is nuts, we

955
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: hate her. But the example I am you using is

956
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: a factual example based on years and years of covering

957
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: this team. Now the next question, why are they not

958
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 2: getting the attention they deserve? Right, it's the second week

959
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: of the Olympics. Semi finals are like you know, Thursday,

960
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: Final Saturday, or in this case it was Friday Sunday.

961
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 2: Because the women got the last opportunity on the stage

962
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: at all these events in the Olympics, including women's marathon,

963
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: which is great of Paris to do that give women

964
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: the chance to close the show. And you've got all

965
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: these events going on that second week of the Olympics.

966
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: So now, picture of the sports editor, male or female.

967
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 2: Who's got three or four reporters at an Olympics, right

968
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: or maybe only one or And of course that's where

969
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: we are these days with coverage of the Olympics, just

970
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: because of cost cutting and ETCA. It's a real shame.

971
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: So now you've got one or two people and that

972
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: same day. And I'm now just giving general I'm not

973
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 2: looking at the schedule from Paris, but in general over

974
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: the years in Rio and Beijing and London, etc. Moving

975
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: back to Sydney and Athens over the years on that

976
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 2: same day or right around that same time. And when

977
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: I'm saying the same time, you can't the logistics of

978
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: an Olympics, as you know, often it's like one event

979
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: a day. It's not like you can go you're watching

980
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: a TV at home. You can't get to two or

981
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: three events. So you have to So these sports editors

982
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: have to make a decision, and or the columnist or whoever. Well,

983
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: if you've got the US women's soccer team, which could

984
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: lose at any time as we've seen, I mean we

985
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: love them and eight and they won, think good, you know,

986
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: amazing story, but they could lose. Whereas you're thinking the

987
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: women's basketball team probably isn't going to lose if you're

988
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: like looking ahead of your schedule, obviously super close game

989
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: they could have.

990
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: We've taken their greatness for granted almost and it's actually

991
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: impacted our coverage.

992
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: And it is a shame and I have said it

993
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: probably more than anyone on earth.

994
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: So why not focus your columns on that team then

995
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: the ones who are on the team. If you think

996
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: Asia Wilson deserve to have more of a spotlight, why

997
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: not write about her well instead of writing about the

998
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: person not selected.

999
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the news of the day was

1000
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: she was not selected, right, So any journalist and any

1001
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: editor worth his or sult is going to say, late

1002
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: the news, Sarah, right.

1003
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: But then after that, if the goal is to draw

1004
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: the eyeballs, why continue to tweet about Caitlin and argue

1005
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: about To me, the Olympic thing I think just bothered

1006
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: me because it felt like there are so many instances

1007
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: of women's sports in particular where someone will be selected

1008
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: because they're like the hottest, like the Maria scherpov is

1009
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: the world great tennis player, but also got so much

1010
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: extra stuff because she looked like that. And the Olympics

1011
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: feels like a space where like you might not get

1012
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: all the sponsorships, but you're going to make the team

1013
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: based on merit. And Caitlyn wasn't in the practices, and

1014
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Caitlyn wasn't the best, she would have brought tons of eyeballs.

1015
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: But is that how you pick an Olympic team? And

1016
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: I guess that's a question for you. Do you think

1017
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: that's how you should pick an Olympic team?

1018
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: Even if, as you saw in the column, I of

1019
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: course made the point that I understand that who do

1020
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 2: you cut off? Who do you take off the team? Yeah?

1021
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: Of course, I mean, like, hello, I've been doing this

1022
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: for a while, so I understand that. But I'm also

1023
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: a columns giving you my opinion, right, So that's what

1024
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 2: I do. I don't I do this on every topic

1025
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: in sports, and so I'm no. I'm sure golf podcasts

1026
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: want to go after me for hours on whatever I've done. There.

1027
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: That's that means I'm probably doing my job right. So okay,

1028
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 2: so let's go back. Though you have very valid questions.

1029
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: I will answer, as you know, every single one of

1030
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 2: your questions. So you said tweeting a lot about it.

1031
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: I think I tweeted. I never tweeted about don Staley

1032
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: and what she said, which was remarkable, right, what she

1033
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: told Mike Tarico about you know, the way Caitlin's playing.

1034
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: We you know what gist of it was. You know,

1035
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 2: we could have put her on the team or we

1036
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 2: need to look at whatever. I never said a word

1037
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: about that ever ever. Okay. So I mean, and the

1038
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 2: reason why is because I'm covering swimming, so I was

1039
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: not USA today. Roxanna Scott makes decisions, and I as

1040
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 2: much as people think I might run USA today, wink wink.

1041
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: Obviously you not. So I'm covering swimming, which is where

1042
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: I want to be. And that is from Saturday, the

1043
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: day after the opening ceremony, all the way through to

1044
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: Sunday night. And that's what not what we discounted, eight days,

1045
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: nine days whatever. So I'm not at any women's basketball.

1046
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: So the basketball was actually out of town and lelle.

1047
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: So I physically if I were to say, oh, I'm

1048
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: going to now write a column about Asia Wilson, Roxander

1049
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: would have said, no. I mean I didn't know. You cannot.

1050
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: Please keep focusing on Katie Ldecki and Torri Hut whatever. Okay,

1051
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: so that's a fact and you know that, and I

1052
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: think if not happy, yeah, for sure.

1053
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: So you know, Christine, I want you to finish answering.

1054
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: I just want you to know I'm not trying to

1055
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: be adversarial because I do like it. I feel like

1056
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: so much of your work has been in pursuit of

1057
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: elevating and spotlighting women in these great ways, and I'm

1058
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: just finding some of this feels like it's it's dissonant

1059
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: compared to that. So that's what I'm trying to get at,

1060
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: is like the larger context within which your work is happening,

1061
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: not how many tweets it's been or how many columns.

1062
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: You know, No, I appreciate it, but I think it

1063
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: is important to say that I wasn't writing a lot

1064
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: of columns about and then about Caitlin Clark and the Olympics.

1065
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: I mean, let's just be factual. If you know, you

1066
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: can have me on and we can talk about why

1067
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: I wrote so much about Katie Ldecki. I'm sorry, there's facetious.

1068
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 2: I'm just joking a little wait, right, right, right right.

1069
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: I think she's earned it, maybe yeah, But the point is,

1070
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: and then as far as tweeting, I may have tweeted

1071
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: once or twice I think during the Olympics about Kaitlyn Clark.

1072
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 2: I didn't have time because I am working on swimming

1073
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: and then of course other issues, and I also work

1074
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: for CNN, and I'm doing a lot on gymnastics and

1075
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 2: talking about Simone Biles and how amazing she is on

1076
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: air for Good Morning America for ABC right actually mostly

1077
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: just ABC streaming. I'm gonna be absolutely accurate. And then

1078
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: also CNN and both international and domestic. So it's not

1079
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 2: I I understand what the argument is I understand what

1080
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: the complaint or whatever the right word is Sarah about me.

1081
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: I understand it. What I am pushing back and saying

1082
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: is I don't think that the facts show that I

1083
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 2: was focused don Caitlin Clark during the Olympics, because I

1084
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: wasn't covering anything involving that until and again, let's be

1085
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: again brutally honest. Of course, I did go to one game.

1086
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 2: It was a semi final game, and as I looked

1087
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: at the press room and I talked to a couple

1088
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: of the reporters who had been at the men's they

1089
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: were shaking their head. They came over and when we

1090
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: were chatting, no need to name. I mean, it's a

1091
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 2: name everyone wouldn't probably know, but you know, it doesn't matter.

1092
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: I wouldn't necessarily, you know, if I have a private conversation,

1093
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: I don't need to make that public to share. Yeah, right, right.

1094
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: But but I did it because I wasn't, you know,

1095
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: born yesterday and I'm trying to get the sense of

1096
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: what the men's mix owone looked like the night before,

1097
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: and it was packed and we there were eighteen people.

1098
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: I think I haven't read the column recently, but I

1099
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: think It was eighteen people, eighteen journalists I counted, and

1100
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: please I stand corrected if people are in my column.

1101
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: What it was was a very small number, a little

1102
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: not of journalists. Certainly we knew some of us knew

1103
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: each other, all from the US. I'm pretty sure maybe

1104
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: one or two international around Cheryl Reeve and talking to

1105
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: a couple of the you know, Brittney Grinder. I talked

1106
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: to Britney Grinder, I talked to Sabrina. Who else did

1107
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: I talk to? But Cheryl Reef was where I counted

1108
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 2: everyone because I thought, well, that's going to be the scrum,

1109
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: that is the maximum eighteen And this particular journalist just

1110
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: was shaking his head and said what could have been?

1111
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: And I said, I know, And of course that was

1112
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: referring this person to me about Caitlin Clark. And I

1113
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: did write that column. Again, I know you're not the

1114
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 2: first person. I'm not even saying that you are interpreting

1115
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: it that I was focused on Caitlin Clark. What I

1116
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: am focused on is getting attention for all of these women.

1117
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 2: And I also will say this, Lizzie Schnell did a

1118
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: fabulous job of covering them, and USA Today was giving

1119
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 2: a lot of attention to the players. My role, I thought,

1120
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 2: was to once again say this is unbelievable, the missed opportunity.

1121
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 2: This was a story. I was on two columns. As

1122
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: I've said, this was the second one, and I could

1123
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 2: speak to it. Got to go pay some bills.

1124
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll continue the conversation with Christine Brennan.

1125
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: I think we're getting lost in the weeds, and I

1126
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: know we've kept you way too long. Thank you so

1127
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: much for your your generosity of time. I think I

1128
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: just want to end by coming back to the bigger picture,

1129
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: because again we're getting in the weeds on the type

1130
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: of journalism or the number of columns. And when you're

1131
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: in pursuit of elevating Caitlin and the league, of giving

1132
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: the league coverage, of giving your opinions on the coverage,

1133
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: what responsibility do you think you have for how your

1134
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: opinions and your coverage affects the league and the players

1135
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: in it. Because there have been players who have approached

1136
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: you and said, you know, this is perpetuating stereotypes. There

1137
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: have been people who have read your columns and then

1138
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: taken away from them that the players are mean to Caitlin,

1139
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: or that the league is targeting Caitlin Do you believe

1140
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: that's true? First of all, do you think that the

1141
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 1: players were physically trying to harm Caitlyn Clark in the season?

1142
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: Uh? First of all, I don't recall I have ever

1143
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: talked about the targeting of Kitlyn Clark or the harm,

1144
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: except in the case of what was, of course, the

1145
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 2: National conversation that I asked her about and then wrote

1146
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: about involving the Kennedy Carner Show or whatever we'd call it,

1147
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: which turned out to be, of course, of flagrant foul. Otherwise,

1148
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: I have not approached that topic with Kaitlyn Clark, with anyone.

1149
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: Or yeah, with Kennedy and Carrington. Right, So those are

1150
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 1: to these like pulse points from the season where people

1151
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: have attached to those moments further narrative. I'm not putting

1152
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: that word in your mouth at all. No, No, I'm

1153
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: asking if you believe that to be true.

1154
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: Right, But I believe what you were saying. Is there

1155
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: a lot there have been that Some people have said

1156
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 2: there have been a few. I have not been that person. Okay,

1157
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 2: So let's let's writ next.

1158
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: So let me let me clarify. Then people have used

1159
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: parts of your coverage as part of a larger narrator

1160
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: of it being Kaitlin Clark versus the League. Your particular coverage,

1161
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: other than talking about specific incidents with Carrington and Kennedy

1162
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: Carter has not been to point out specifically targeting or harm.

1163
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: But because of that narrative being Caitlin versus the League,

1164
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: because of the frosty column before the league started, because

1165
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: of the asking Carrington if it's intentional, those participate in

1166
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: a larger narrative and it's not just you. Honestly, Christine,

1167
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: I think the criticism for you comes from an expectation

1168
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: based on your reputation. Right There are plenty of people

1169
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: showing up that should be denied credentials. OutKick is one

1170
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: of them who have never respected women, will never respect women,

1171
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: and we don't expect anything out of them. I think

1172
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: the dissonance here is that it feels like at times

1173
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: your ability to see the larger context and write to

1174
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: it in really difficult situations has been such a massive

1175
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: part of your career, and in this league it feels

1176
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: like you're.

1177
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: Operating in a vacuum and ignoring.

1178
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: The larger context, or at least deciding not to care

1179
00:56:59,160 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: what your effect on it.

1180
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: It might be everyone can think whatever they want. Of course,

1181
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: I think they've missed some of my CNN hits where

1182
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 2: we've talked about how awful the discourse is. The other

1183
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: day on Jake Tapper, I talked to what I said

1184
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 2: to you earlier. I made it crystal clear. I make

1185
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: this a It's a very important point for me to make,

1186
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 2: and so I made it on national television. So on

1187
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: what was that Monday on CNN with Jake Tapper where

1188
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: I said, again, you know, we have no idea what's

1189
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: what it's like to be a black woman in the

1190
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,479
Speaker 2: public eye and dealing with Twitter and this cesspool of Twitter.

1191
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 2: I said that I will say it again in expect.

1192
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 2: A couple of people, well a couple of people at CNN,

1193
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,479
Speaker 2: including a black woman, came up to me and thanked

1194
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: me for saying that. So there is a I am

1195
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: not disagreeing that there are people who are mad at me,

1196
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 2: or people who don't like me, or they're disappointed with me,

1197
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 2: or whatever they may feel. I mean, that's just what happens.

1198
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 2: You know this too. There are probably people who are

1199
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: disappointed with you. I think that this narrative that is

1200
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 2: being perpetuated is not looking at all my body of work.

1201
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: I do a ton of TV work. I have written,

1202
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: as I said, a very few columns on Kitlin Clark

1203
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: compared to what I have done this year with the Masters.

1204
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: But it's the only WNBA coverage you do, so you

1205
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: understand how people in this particular space will focus on

1206
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: that part of it as opposed to what you're writing

1207
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: about other sports.

1208
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: Well well if they want to, sure, But of course

1209
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 2: Kitlyn Clark is a story very much like Tiger Woods,

1210
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: and I did do a column on that about covering

1211
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: Tiger at the very beginning and then covering Kaitlin.

1212
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: I mean, the Tiger's success didn't result in attacking other golfers,

1213
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: and I think that's what I The contact was so

1214
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: different here.

1215
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 2: There was racism against Tiger and it was not covered

1216
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: as it should have been.

1217
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: I write against tigers, so right, the focus on of

1218
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: your stories.

1219
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 2: Centering there was placed it in time. There was no

1220
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: social media back then, right, so I know, like right

1221
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 2: now now you and I having this conversation, there will

1222
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: be people that react to it in all kinds of

1223
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 2: different ways right on social we both are looking forward

1224
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 2: to that, right I exactly welcome. As I said, I

1225
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: already go to say like Christine Brennan is an idiot

1226
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 2: or something, and then you know they're like, yeah, we

1227
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 2: agree and so so that. But we can't control everything

1228
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: someone's going to be doing on it. We are doing

1229
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: our level best, you as a professional, me as a professional,

1230
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: to do our level best to be appropriate and fair

1231
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 2: and honest as we are in every syllable we've just

1232
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 2: said here over the last X amount of time we've

1233
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: been talking. Then it goes out to the world and

1234
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: then people. I think it would shock us if people

1235
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: all of a sudden did something based on what we said, right,

1236
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: But we also can't control everything. I am not washing

1237
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 2: my hands as I answered that question of years a

1238
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 2: while ago. It is a valid conversation. As I said,

1239
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 2: I've brought it up on National TV a couple of

1240
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 2: days ago, I've brought it up with you. I am aware.

1241
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: I have said it to many many people. I've said

1242
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: it on Panels about I said it with Jake a

1243
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: few months ago when he was talking about something. I said,

1244
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 2: we have no idea and we've got to be so

1245
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 2: aware of our of our black colleagues.

1246
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: Our impact well of our impact too.

1247
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, but that's not.

1248
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: Just empathetic to their experience, but but aware of whether

1249
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: we're contributed.

1250
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, But you have to admit that when you

1251
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: and I are done here and this goes up, we

1252
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 2: cannot know everything everyone will do, and it might be

1253
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 2: absolutely it might even surprise us, and then we will

1254
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: You and I might email our text and say, wow,

1255
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: let's be careful next time. Yeah, right, think about what

1256
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: we've heard, the back we've gotten, consider it through the

1257
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: lens of journalism and doing what we think is right,

1258
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 2: and also how people react to it, because sometimes impact

1259
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: is just as important as intent, right, But if your

1260
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: intent doesn't match your impact, and enough people tell you that,

1261
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: at some point, there's a reassessment, right, Well, And so

1262
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: my point is the notion that I am this terrible

1263
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 2: verson or whatever it is. And again, it's a free cunt,

1264
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: and I would absolutely defend their right to say that

1265
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 2: about joining the club for all of us. You know me,

1266
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: and you know there's a lot of people out there,

1267
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: a lot of people who are of course like me

1268
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 2: and defending me, and a lot of people who don't.

1269
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 2: But the notion that somehow this is all terrible and

1270
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: I'm out to do something awful or whatever they're thinking, right,

1271
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: and I'm not minimizing it. I'm just you know, we

1272
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: don't have all day to talk about what they're thinking,

1273
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 2: because I'm sure there are many thoughts. You have to understand.

1274
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: It's that as journalists, we do our jobs. We put

1275
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: stuff out there, and of course we care and we're

1276
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 2: surprised or were shocked. And as you know, as clear

1277
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 2: example from the it was last Tuesday was of course

1278
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: the interview, and I put it right out there, which

1279
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 2: of course I thought was the right thing to do journalistically.

1280
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: I wasn't hiding it obviously, right. I put you out there,

1281
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 2: including my questions, so might be something for somebody to

1282
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 2: consider that I'm you know, I did do that, of course,

1283
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: and whether they liked it or not, I did. I

1284
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 2: was very transparent seeking around, no hiding and then the

1285
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: anger and whatever that, you know, and the concern and

1286
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 2: do wanna Brauner coming up and speaking to me, and

1287
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 2: of course she right away she was saying, you know,

1288
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: you just respected my my teammate, excuse me, my teammate,

1289
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 2: and I put my hand out I'd like I wanted to,

1290
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, I said, Hi, I'm Christine Brennan. Would of course,

1291
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: she didn't want to take my hand. I said, would

1292
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 2: you like to, you know, take my hand in the

1293
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 2: sense of, you know, shake hands? And I tried to

1294
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 2: think twice on that, maybe three times in a minute

1295
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 2: and a half. And then I also said, do you

1296
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: want to see what I did? So, Sarah, I would say,

1297
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 2: right then and there, as I am being confronted by

1298
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: do wanna Bonner, I would not call it heated. I

1299
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 2: would call it a person coming up to talk to me.

1300
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: It's happened a lot. Happened a lot to you too.

1301
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: I welcome that, I absolutely standing there, welcome that I'm

1302
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: trying to introduce myself to her. Do you want to

1303
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: see the interview? We could have had a little bit

1304
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 2: more of a conversation. She didn't want to, and that's

1305
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: her right. But I also believe that that shows how

1306
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 2: much I cared, I understood, I was willing to have.

1307
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: I didn't walk away way, I didn't leave the arena.

1308
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 2: And I think some of the conversation potentially out there.

1309
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing that much of it, but some of

1310
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: it might be just what an awful human being I am.

1311
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 2: That is Okay, it's their right to say that, but

1312
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: I think they're missing the fact of what I'm trying

1313
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: to do. What I am doing, what I understand clearly,

1314
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:26,959
Speaker 2: but also as a journalist, asking questions and putting things

1315
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 2: out there so athletes then can then have an opportunity

1316
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 2: to answer issues that are being discussed or out there.

1317
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 2: Understanding of course that Twitter is a cesspool, that other

1318
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: social media is also terrible, and these are real issues

1319
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 2: in our society. And know what you know me, Well,

1320
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: no way am I minimizing any of that.

1321
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: Well, I'm very grateful for coming on and talking about it,

1322
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: for standing by your work and coming on to explain

1323
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: how you do it and why you do it.

1324
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 2: And I really appreciate.

1325
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: It's tough conversation to have, and I think it's been

1326
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: it's better to have these conversations face to face and

1327
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: out in the light. Then, like you said, to be

1328
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: like she's a terrible person and that's it, and that's

1329
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: where it ends. There's more to it, and there's more

1330
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: conversation to be had. I saw in the Washington Post

1331
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: that your editors had requested credentials for the w NBA Finals.

1332
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: So as far as you know.

1333
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: Your credentials are secure and you will be going on

1334
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: to continue covering some of the playoffs.

1335
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 2: Well, I hope so they're gonna USADA is yes, absolutely that.

1336
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 2: I told the Post that, and ben Stous wrote that

1337
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 2: that USADA will be requesting credential for me at least

1338
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 2: for Game one, which is also the Kathy Engelbert press conference.

1339
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 2: And I don't think as we're talking right now, I

1340
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 2: certainly can update you, but right now I don't know

1341
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 2: that one they've actually officially been requested yet, you know,

1342
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 2: the editor actually doing it. And secondly, if they have been,

1343
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 2: have we heard back. So I certainly hope so, because

1344
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: I like to cover it and like to be at

1345
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: that press conference. And this is an incredible time in

1346
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 2: women's sports and an amazing time in the WNBA, with

1347
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 2: obviously cultural issues, major issues, and by the way, all

1348
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 2: of that will be in the book. This idea, and

1349
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 2: I know you didn't say this, but this idea is

1350
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: that again, this is about the women's sports revolution and

1351
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 2: title nine the book would be out, you know, early

1352
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 2: on in the WNB season next year. It's about a

1353
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 2: time and a place, it's about our culture. Doctor Harry

1354
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 2: Edwards is talking very eloquently about all of this. I

1355
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 2: want to get more voices, not less. And if anyone,

1356
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 2: by the way, if I may just say, if anyone listening,

1357
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 2: watching wants to talk to me, I want to talk

1358
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 2: to you. I'm easy to find. My website is just

1359
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 2: my name and you can send me an email there.

1360
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: So I don't mean to be soliciting, but I'm open.

1361
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: I do want to hear from people and all these

1362
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 2: the various issues that have come around and come about

1363
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 2: because of this very interesting and obviously important time in

1364
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 2: women's sports. I hope people do talk to you.

1365
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: I think writing about Caitlin requires understanding this like larger

1366
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: history of the league and the larger you know, situation

1367
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: within which she arrived. That's so much of what's informed

1368
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: this season and a lot of the conversations this season

1369
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: have come from this intersection of new people, old people,

1370
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: new stories, old stories and all of that. And that

1371
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: that's why we got to talk about it. We got

1372
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: to talk about it instead of just tweeting mean things

1373
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: to each other.

1374
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 2: Will happen to both of us.

1375
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: After this interview, Christine, thank you again for coming on.

1376
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 2: Really appreciate the time.

1377
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Christine Brennan for joining us. I have

1378
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: some thoughts on the conversation. We just had some quick thoughts,

1379
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: so be sure to come back after the break. A

1380
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 1: lot to take away from this conversation, and we'll continue

1381
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 1: to do that tomorrow in the coming days as well.

1382
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: But I want to end with this for today. I

1383
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: asked Christine, quote, don't you think journalistically, the idea of

1384
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: minimizing harm, of seeking out truth in the most honest

1385
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: and good faith way, you should prioritize that over being

1386
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 1: able to just say I would ask that question a

1387
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: million times and ignoring the context within what you're asking

1388
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: it end quote. And she responded, quote, yeah, you know.

1389
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: It's a great point.

1390
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 2: Certainly.

1391
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: It is something that I guess every journalist needs to

1392
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 1: start to think about and deal with. Most of us, don't,

1393
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 1: right Just you ask questions and you see what the

1394
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: answers are end quote. And I want to say that

1395
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,919
Speaker 1: I do think about that very much, and I think

1396
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: a lot of journalists do. I'm very aware of how

1397
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: I move in this space in the w in particular,

1398
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: and that if my intent is to cover the players

1399
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: and the league fairly, that I not further narratives that

1400
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: are damaging and dangerous to the black women of the league. I,

1401
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: of course strive not to be a cheerleader or a sycophant.

1402
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 2: I want to get to the truth.

1403
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: I want to ask hard questions, but I want to

1404
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: ask them in a way that doesn't give credence to

1405
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,959
Speaker 1: internet rolls or those with bad motives. And I think

1406
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: maybe that's where the issue in this whole conversation with

1407
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: Christine really lies. It feels like in a vacuum, Christine

1408
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: can defend her tweets, her TV appearances or columns. And

1409
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: by the way, we count sixteen on Caitlin Clark, not

1410
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: six or seven, So it was interesting how she wanted

1411
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 1: to minimize the number, and the number was never the

1412
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: importance anyway. But in a vacuum she can defend those

1413
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: and in a vacuum she can sum up the results

1414
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: of that content as criticism both of players and her.

1415
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: But that suggests that the issue ends with online vitriol.

1416
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 1: Now that vitriol and the email death threats and the

1417
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 1: racist social media memes like those are bad enough, But

1418
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: the truth is the damage that can actually be done

1419
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: by reporting in a vacuum in this league, by perpetuating

1420
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: and inflaming narratives about black players is so much greater

1421
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: than online hatred. It results in people showing up to players' hotels,

1422
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: in people harassing them and their family members, and it

1423
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: also gravely affects the success of the league. Focusing on

1424
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: how Caitlin has drawn fans to the league without acknowledging

1425
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 1: how her arrival is also emboldened racist and homophobic quote

1426
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 1: unquote fans is to attempt to separate the individual player

1427
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: from the league in which she plays, and Caitlin's success

1428
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 1: ultimately depends on the league's success.

1429
01:08:59,160 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 2: So refusing to.

1430
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: Understand how racism, misogyny, and homophobia have affected the league's viewership, attendance,

1431
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: ability to turn a profit, not to mention how it's

1432
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: affected you know, which players get covered and get sponsorship

1433
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: deals and get credit for their play, is to reveal

1434
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: a sort of fundamental misunderstanding of the league. And you know,

1435
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: to just say that you can ask the same questions

1436
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: you've asked a million times in other spaces, completely different spaces,

1437
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,839
Speaker 1: without causing harm here is, in my opinion, a violation

1438
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: of journalistic responsibility.

1439
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 2: This league and.

1440
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: These players do not need soft coverage, but they do

1441
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: need smart coverage, and in the days since the WNBPA

1442
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: statement was released, I've seen multiple really respected journalists, though

1443
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 1: none who covered the WNBA or even cover women's sports

1444
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: at all, come out in support of Christine, and they've

1445
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: cited her body of work and her history. Most seem

1446
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 1: unaware of the season long conversations around Brennan's reporting, and

1447
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: some even allege that the player's Association statement was solely

1448
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: about her. In You with DJ Carrington Now, a bunch

1449
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 1: of legacy media folks not understanding the larger context of

1450
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: the WNBPA call out and the greater impact of Brennan's

1451
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: work is the fundamental issue here. Too many folks speaking

1452
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: on a league and players that they don't know and

1453
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 1: haven't done the work to understand, and it's been kind

1454
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 1: of the theme all season long, right conversations about the

1455
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 1: league led by the loudest voices with the largest influence

1456
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:28,719
Speaker 1: as opposed to the most informed voices. Now, I respect

1457
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: Christine's past work and the fight she's put up for

1458
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: so many years paving the way for other women, and

1459
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 1: I get how people might rush to defend her because

1460
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 1: of that, But the act of being a journalist is

1461
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: an ongoing process, and the work she did before won't

1462
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,719
Speaker 1: mitigate the harm of the work she's doing right now.

1463
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 2: So when the.

1464
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: Players Association, players themselves and other media members are telling

1465
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: her the impact of what she's doing and she doesn't

1466
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: seem interested in reflecting or changing, then it feels like

1467
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 1: that ongoing process of journalism is over. We want to

1468
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 1: hear what you thought of the interview too. What was

1469
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 1: your response to what I had to say to what

1470
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,599
Speaker 1: Christine had to say? Send us email Good Game at

1471
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: wondermedianetwork dot com or we'd really like to hear your

1472
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: voices on this, so send us a voicemail eight seven

1473
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 1: two two o four fifty seventy.

1474
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 2: We'd really love to hear from you, slices.

1475
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening and we'll see you tomorrow with

1476
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 1: all your faves back.

1477
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 2: And if you're stuck.

1478
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: Around this long your true slice, so good Game Slices.

1479
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iheartwomen's sports production

1480
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can

1481
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,920
Speaker 1: find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1482
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,200
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our

1483
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers

1484
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.

1485
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and

1486
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: Lindsay Cratowell.

1487
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:52,719
Speaker 2: Production assistants from Lucy

1488
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,759
Speaker 1: Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain