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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome back to the latest edition of

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and

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Speaker 1: of course Joe Medden and Joe. I wish we had

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Speaker 1: a better topic to talk about right now, but to me,

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Speaker 1: the topic in baseball right now is baseball is in

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Speaker 1: crisis when it comes to pitchers' health. Things really hit

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Speaker 1: the wall over the weekend, some back and forth between

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Speaker 1: the Players Association and the Union, but more importantly, this

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Speaker 1: is the way I put it, Joe, and I want

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Speaker 1: your response to this. Baseball as an industry, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about Major League Baseball teams, I'm talking about the

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Speaker 1: amateur market, I'm talking about training facilities has been an

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Speaker 1: abject failure in terms of this generation of pictures. I

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Speaker 1: say that because they are succeeding with ta teaching pictures

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Speaker 1: how to throw and especially to throw harder, but they

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Speaker 1: are failing at the most basic mission of any kind

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Speaker 1: of endeavor, and that is personal health. And that the

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Speaker 1: rate that pictures are breaking down is telling me that

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Speaker 1: the system that's in place now is broken. It's not sustainable,

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Speaker 1: and it needs change. So listen, we had individual anecdotal

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Speaker 1: information Joe this week about several pictures going down with injuries,

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Speaker 1: blown out elbows, Jure Perez, the Marlins, Spencer, Strider of

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Speaker 1: the Braves, just to name a couple. The list goes

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Speaker 1: on and on. We know that, Joe. I want to

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Speaker 1: get your response. You've been in this game so long,

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Speaker 1: You've given so much of this game. You care about players.

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Speaker 1: I know how deeply you do care about them and

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Speaker 1: their own health. Give me your reaction to what has

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Speaker 1: been going on, not just this week, but really I

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Speaker 1: want to say over the last half decade to decade.

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Speaker 2: Well, first off, when you talk about a picture getting hurt.

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Speaker 2: As a manager, whenever one of my pitchers was injured,

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Speaker 2: I always thought it was my fault. It's fore to

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Speaker 2: God I did, and that would bother me more than anything.

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Speaker 2: And I'll remember when specifically it was JP Howell, who

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Speaker 2: had already come from the University of Texas with the shoulder.

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Speaker 3: That had been banged up pretty good. Did not throw

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Speaker 3: that hard.

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Speaker 2: JP did not throw hard, however, great movement, great dum, makeup,

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Speaker 2: tough guy, and he ended up getting hurt. And I

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Speaker 2: thought I was partly responsible for that, and I tell you,

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Speaker 2: that bothered me a lot. So anytime I could go

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Speaker 2: back to Doug Banny, who we try to actually injure

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Speaker 2: to try to find out specifically, I it was a

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Speaker 2: burst of sack or not in his shoulder, and I'm

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Speaker 2: told to pitch you more often to see if we

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Speaker 2: could flare this thing up.

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Speaker 3: That bothered me a lot.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to pitchers' injuries as a manager,

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Speaker 2: that would bother me as much as anything. When we

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Speaker 2: lost the guy and I thought, some ways, this is

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Speaker 2: my fault. I never even thought about training techniques. You know,

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Speaker 2: how he's thrown, specifically, how his arm was working, whatever,

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Speaker 2: velocity was never question at that time, as he tried

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Speaker 2: to throw too hard. I always was concerned about coming

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Speaker 2: out of a delivery. I was always concerned with the

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Speaker 2: young pitchers when I had rookie ball guys, low A

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Speaker 2: ball guys that got out hitters by using splits or

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Speaker 2: fork balls at that time, with the nothing behind the

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Speaker 2: ball except air and their fingers split wide apart, and

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Speaker 2: they're trying to deceive A ball hitters and getting them

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Speaker 2: out with this pitch that these kids couldn't hit. They're

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Speaker 2: going to chase major leag hitters aren't going to chase.

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Speaker 2: These are the things that bothered me, and then more

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Speaker 2: specifically today and you already touched on here what Glenn

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Speaker 2: has to say. But it's obviously velocity and the chasing

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Speaker 2: of velocity. I mean, I watched these videos of the

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Speaker 2: training where the with the guys take a crow hop

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Speaker 2: what Bauer does it before he throws his first pitch

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Speaker 2: of an inn, he takes a girl out from behind

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Speaker 2: the mount and throws to his catcher. But maybe that's

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Speaker 2: just one pitch. And I don't know how he trains specifically,

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Speaker 2: but to watch guys throw into mattresses or nets as

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Speaker 2: hard as they possibly can and with no concern about control, command,

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Speaker 2: how to get hitter out. My pitching is art for

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Speaker 2: none of that. It's just to try to throw as

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Speaker 2: hard as I can to get to the big leagues.

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Speaker 2: And I don't even think they have a concern for

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Speaker 2: the length of their careers. Quite frankly, I don't. I

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Speaker 2: think it's just about getting there. It's about maybe making

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Speaker 2: this original amount of money and then hoping it's enough.

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Speaker 2: And even those that are consulting with them, those that

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Speaker 2: are in charge of their careers, basically they're too young

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Speaker 2: to understand that. I'm kind of disappointed in all that.

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Speaker 2: So it's the chasing of velocity. It's the not being

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Speaker 2: concerned with the art of pitching and how to get

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Speaker 2: hitters out and the fact that there's a reward behind that,

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Speaker 2: and that we're just creating this conveyor belt of velocity.

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Speaker 2: So that quite frankly inn organization. If one guy gets injured,

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Speaker 2: I don't think they're that concerned if they have other

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Speaker 2: velocity on the conveyor belt. So succinctly that's what I think.

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Speaker 1: Well, listen, I've always been about cutting through false narratives,

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Speaker 1: cutting through anecdotal information. I want to understand why this

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Speaker 1: is happening with if there is any empirical evidence or

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Speaker 1: scientific evidence, not just people speaking off the top of

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Speaker 1: their heads. And that includes Tony Clark who had this

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Speaker 1: terrible statement over the weekend blaming the pitch timer and

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Speaker 1: how the players voted against the pitch timer, the two

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Speaker 1: seconds off the clock. We're two weeks into the season,

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Speaker 1: Tony with it two seconds off the pitch timer, and

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Speaker 1: the evidence from last year with the pitch timer showed

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Speaker 1: no appreciable difference in injury rate, don't give me that.

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Speaker 1: Don't go back and litigate the CBA again that you

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Speaker 1: got your folks voted against it. This has been going

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Speaker 1: on for years, not just last year. So to cut

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Speaker 1: through all this, I'm bringing in an expert, Joe and

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Speaker 1: you mentioned if Glenn Flisik. He is biomechanics research director

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Speaker 1: at the American Sports Medicine Institute. He is a consultant

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Speaker 1: too Major League Baseball. He's one of the foremost practitioners

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Speaker 1: in this field of biomechanics. Glenn, thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 1: We've had you on the show before, and here we

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Speaker 1: are back again, seemingly talking about very similar things. The

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Speaker 1: correlation between and Joe brought this up, velocity and pitchers

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Speaker 1: breaking down. It seems to be stronger as velocity goes up.

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Speaker 1: Give me your take specifically how it relates to this.

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Speaker 1: I call it an epidemic of injuries and specifically the

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Speaker 1: increase in velocity.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of stuff there, Tom and I agree

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Speaker 4: with you guys on everything you're saying. First of all, scientifically,

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Speaker 4: there's no doubt that the average velocity has been a

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Speaker 4: rising in Major League Baseball for the last ten years.

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Speaker 4: And there's no doubt that the number of pitching injuries

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Speaker 4: have been rising, and if you grab them right next

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Speaker 4: to each other, they almost look like the same graph. Now,

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Speaker 4: so that proves that as pitchers are pitching faster, we're

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Speaker 4: getting more injuries. That does not prove that the velocity

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Speaker 4: is causing the injuries. Okay, I do think that's the reason,

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Speaker 4: but that's not the proof. I want to back up

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Speaker 4: and tell you we've done what's called biomechanics research, where

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Speaker 4: we've tested baseball pitchers with the markers on their body

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Speaker 4: or in games, and we've measured the forces in their

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Speaker 4: elbow in particular, which is related to the Tommy John

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Speaker 4: type injuries. The data is very convincing and statistically significant.

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Speaker 4: The faster you throw, the more force there is any elbow.

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Speaker 4: This is now getting a rid of opinion. This is facts,

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Speaker 4: in particular within a given picture, the faster he throws,

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Speaker 4: the more force he has. So what that's saying is

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Speaker 4: the worst thing a pitcher could do for his injury

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Speaker 4: risk is to throw every pitch as hard as possible

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Speaker 4: a max effort guy. Major League baseball organizations realize this

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Speaker 4: a few years ago, and so what they started doing

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Speaker 4: was the guys who they viewed as max effort guys.

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Speaker 4: They said, these will be one inning bullpen guys, and

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Speaker 4: starting pitchers were the type that mixed it up their

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Speaker 4: speeds and their pitch selection a little better. Now, though,

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Speaker 4: I'd say my feeling that you guys could weigh in

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Speaker 4: as well. Teams have starting pitchers as well as relief

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Speaker 4: pitchers who are max effort guys, throwing every pitch as

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Speaker 4: hard as possible, and I think that is proving to

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Speaker 4: be h the reason these starting pitchers are breaking down.

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Speaker 4: You can't pitch two hundred innings a year throwing everything

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Speaker 4: at max effort. What's happening is the science in baseball

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Speaker 4: is improving. I'm happy about that. I contribute to that,

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Speaker 4: but also there's a cost with that, which is we

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Speaker 4: are teaching our pictures how to get maximum velocity by

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Speaker 4: proper mechanics and proper strength and conditioning and proper nutrition,

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Speaker 4: and it builds their bodies stronger, except ligaments and tendons

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Speaker 4: in the joints are kind of left behind. The Tommy

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Speaker 4: John ligament, what's called the ulner collateral ligament, doesn't build

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Speaker 4: up like your muscles do. So we're seeing the cost

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Speaker 4: here that pictures are throwing as hard as possible with

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Speaker 4: good mechanics and good proper conditioning, their body and the

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Speaker 4: ligaments are notwithstanding this.

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Speaker 1: Glad, let me follow up on that, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's a super important point because we're seeing so many

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Speaker 1: UCL injuries ull nercollateral ligament, blowing out, tearing, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Some of the numbers from Stan Conti, the former trainer

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Speaker 1: of the LA Dodgers, back in twenty eleven, he counted

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eleven UCL procedures. Last year twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty three, more than double the rate

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Speaker 1: within twelve years. So I want you to explain to

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Speaker 1: people the role that the UCL plays in sort of

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Speaker 1: the biomechanics of throwing, because, as you mentioned, we've done

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Speaker 1: a great job in terms of improving pitchers mechanics, strengthening

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Speaker 1: their muscles, training, conditioning, nutrition, We're building better machines, so

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Speaker 1: to speak. But the flaw in the machine does seem

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Speaker 1: to be the UCL. So take me inside what the

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Speaker 1: UCL is and why it's vulnerable.

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Speaker 4: Sure, So I work with the orthopedic surgeons, doctor Andrews

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Speaker 4: who recently retired, Doctor Andrews and others, Doctor Dugas so

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Speaker 4: I get to see arthroscopically what the ligament looks like.

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Speaker 4: In addition, we have not to be too discussing, but

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Speaker 4: we have a cadaver testing lab and we cut open

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Speaker 4: human elbows and these and shoulders, and I get to

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Speaker 4: see what these ligaments look like. The ulnar coladal ligament

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Speaker 4: is a little triangle type of little rubber band shape thing.

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Speaker 4: It's in a triangle and each of the three branches

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Speaker 4: are really teeny maybe an inch long, and really thin.

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Speaker 4: And so this teeny little ligament which is on the

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Speaker 4: medial side of your elbow, which is the party elbow

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Speaker 4: that touches your hip when you put your arm next

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Speaker 4: to your body, this little ligament is a major component

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Speaker 4: in keeping your elbow integrity. In particular, Tom and Joe.

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Speaker 4: When a pitcher pitches and he cocks his arm back

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Speaker 4: so far back where his body is facing home plate,

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Speaker 4: but his arm is rotated so far back that essentially

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Speaker 4: the palm of his hand is facing up in that position,

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Speaker 4: the arm is rotated back we call externally rotated back

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Speaker 4: so far and then the shoulder and elbow have to

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Speaker 4: stop your arm from going back, catch it and accelerated forward.

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Speaker 4: At that point the load on the medial elbow or

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Speaker 4: the UCL is extraordinary, and in our cadaver testing we've

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Speaker 4: shown that it's basically redline. It's maximum is at the

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Speaker 4: maximum amount that that little ligament can withstand.

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Speaker 2: I have a question regarding all of that, and the

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Speaker 2: fact we keep talking about better mechanics. I don't even

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Speaker 2: know how to phrase this, but I hear the term

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Speaker 2: better mechanics not knowing what that means, quite frankly, because

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Speaker 2: I've had so many different pictures through time that look different.

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Speaker 2: They all look different, nobody it was almost I've had

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Speaker 2: this conversation about cars and the way people a dress.

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Speaker 2: Everybody wants to be the same these days. Are we

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Speaker 2: trying to eliminate indigenous methods of throwing something that's been

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Speaker 2: built up over a period of time from a kid

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Speaker 2: at the time he's twelve eleven, He's been thrown a

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Speaker 2: certain way, and all of a sudden we look us

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Speaker 2: up and they say, well, we're going to give you

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Speaker 2: better mechanics and whatever that means. Because I don't really

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Speaker 2: know what that means. Whatever that is, we're going to

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Speaker 2: try to get you to throw this way. Is there

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Speaker 2: a common element in the elbows that blow up. Is

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Speaker 2: there a common element in the throwing stroke that you

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Speaker 2: could look at and say wow, or even in advance

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Speaker 2: of the guy blowing out, is there a common element

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Speaker 2: to the throwing stroke that you've seen that can tell

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Speaker 2: you in advance, this guy's a pretty good chance of

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Speaker 2: breaking down?

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Speaker 4: Okay, So there are some things Joe, that all pictures

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Speaker 4: to succeed must do in their mechanics. And there's some

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Speaker 4: things that have individual variation. And you know, we have

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Speaker 4: this biomechanics lab and teams have biomechanics, but in nineteen

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Speaker 4: sixty pictures we're figuring it out without biomechanics lab. So

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Speaker 4: some humans have just figured out from playing catch with

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Speaker 4: their dad or whatever, their proper mechanics, and they've succeeded,

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Speaker 4: but others have not figured out the right way, And

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Speaker 4: then by biomechanical analysis you can give them advice what

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Speaker 4: to do better. To answer your first question, are there

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Speaker 4: proper mechanics? There are some things that you must do

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Speaker 4: based on how the human bodies put together and based

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Speaker 4: on how the laws of physics were. And let me

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Speaker 4: give you an example. At the shoulder, you must have

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Speaker 4: your armpit angle at ninety degrees when you're pitching the ball.

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Speaker 4: What I mean is, regardless of whether you are a

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Speaker 4: three quarter arm pitcher and over the top pitcher or

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Speaker 4: sidearm pitcher, you really should that should be differentiated by

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Speaker 4: tilting your trunk, not by raising or lowering your elbow,

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Speaker 4: because that's the way the shoulder joint is built. So

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Speaker 4: there are some things like that that have to be

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Speaker 4: done a certain way to be healthy and successful. However,

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Speaker 4: there are other things such as the tilt of the

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Speaker 4: trunk that is an individual variation, so it's both. Now,

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Speaker 4: as far as the elbow goes the UCL, one of

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Speaker 4: the key factors we've seen that correlates with the load

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Speaker 4: on the elbow is a late arm. Okay, So basically,

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Speaker 4: at the time of front foot contact, your arm should

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Speaker 4: be on its way up. Your forum should not be

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Speaker 4: totally vertical when the front foot hits. It shouldn't be horizontal,

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Speaker 4: or the wrists should not be below the elbow. It

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Speaker 4: should be almost vertical. People don't blow out their elbow

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Speaker 4: at the time by foot contact, but it's a great

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Speaker 4: checkpoint because everyone has a foot contact and is a

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Speaker 4: great checkpoint to make sure the timing of your arm

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Speaker 4: and your body are in sync. And so that's one

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Speaker 4: example of things that you must do to pass the

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Speaker 4: energy up to your arm and not throw just.

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Speaker 1: With your arm.

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Speaker 3: How much is consider what they do behind them? I mean,

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Speaker 3: what's going on?

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Speaker 2: They could Back in the day Steve Carlton was a

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Speaker 2: wrist wrapper. Rick Suckcliff put the ball straight down. You

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Speaker 2: see today when you watch these photographs of pictures, my goodness,

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Speaker 2: it's like their shoulders are almost touching behind them where

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Speaker 2: their their right hand and their right arm gets so

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Speaker 2: far behind them it has so much farther to go.

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Speaker 2: And then to time that up with the foot hitting

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Speaker 2: the ground and getting in the proper spot is really

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Speaker 2: a difficult thing to do, especially if the guy's tall.

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Speaker 3: So, I mean, how.

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Speaker 2: Much would a guy does behind him is considered a

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Speaker 2: big fixable teachable, a part of better mechanical good.

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Speaker 4: Right again, you're essentially talking about the arm path sure

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Speaker 4: from the time that they break their hands until the

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Speaker 4: time of foot contact. Again, what I do and what

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Speaker 4: I teach to other biomechanists is let's take a look

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Speaker 4: at where they are a foot contact and pretty much

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Speaker 4: if they got there the right place of foot contact,

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Speaker 4: I'm not too concerned how they went to get there.

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Speaker 4: So at foot contact, like I said, you want your

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Speaker 4: arm to be kind of up. The other important aspect

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Speaker 4: of about it, Joe, is that the elbow angle itself

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Speaker 4: should be about a ninety degree angle. We don't want

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Speaker 4: a guy who kind of short arms and holds the

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Speaker 4: bowlet next to his head. Likewise, we don't want a

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Speaker 4: guy to land a foot contact with the arm held

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Speaker 4: all the way out. A couple of years ago, kind

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Speaker 4: of short arming became in vogue. Our biomechanic studies and

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Speaker 4: those are Britney Dowling and some others have shown that

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Speaker 4: the safest and most effective way is still to land

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Speaker 4: with the elbow at about an L shape or about

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Speaker 4: a ninety degree and so again, to answer your question,

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Speaker 4: I'm mostly concerned about that arm path if it leads

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Speaker 4: to them not getting the right place at foot contact.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those are great points, Glenn, and I actually each

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Speaker 1: year I will write some names in notebook when I

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Speaker 1: see people who are late loading. When that front foot

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Speaker 1: lands and that ball is still not delivered above basically

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Speaker 1: to the loaded position, that's a late loader, and that

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Speaker 1: generally is going to show maybe first in the shoulder,

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Speaker 1: but eventually in the elbow. You can see that. I

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Speaker 1: can see breakdowns literally waiting to happen. And I can

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Speaker 1: see what you're talking about. When the ball is loaded

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Speaker 1: and that angle is more than ninety degree, I call

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Speaker 1: it forearmed flyout with that ball is just too far

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Speaker 1: away from the head. Those are mechanical flaws. And I

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Speaker 1: understand in Major League Baseball, if you're getting people out,

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Speaker 1: it's difficult to change people because you are getting results

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Speaker 1: as a results oriented business. But I do believe, and Glenn,

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Speaker 1: you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the

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Speaker 1: industry has done a much better job of identifying those

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Speaker 1: red flags and smoothing them out. I think mechanically, pitchers

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Speaker 1: are more maybe than they've ever been.

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Speaker 4: Correct. I agree with you. I'm just reminded of a

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Speaker 4: funny story about ten years ago or so I was

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Speaker 4: with one of the major league teams had consulted me

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Speaker 4: to be in their draft room, and I was supposed

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Speaker 4: to help look at the videos of the guys before

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Speaker 4: they drafted. And I don't know who's who, you know,

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Speaker 4: I don't know these guys' names or whatever. And look

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Speaker 4: at this guy and he had totally late armed some

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Speaker 4: kid and next thing I know, I'm being called into

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Speaker 4: the in the principal's office the general manager's room, and

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Speaker 4: he's saying, tell me, tell me what you told the

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Speaker 4: rest of the scouts about this guy. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 4: his arm is late and things like that. The reason

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Speaker 4: I was called into that room is because he was

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Speaker 4: their number. He was number one on their hit on

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Speaker 4: their hit list, and I think kind of what I said.

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Speaker 4: They didn't pick him in the first round, and he

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Speaker 4: dropped to the second round, and then they grabbed on

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Speaker 4: the second round. But then he blew out his arm

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Speaker 4: the next year, so they were not too happy about that,

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Speaker 4: but they were pretty impressed that I got that right

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Speaker 4: with the late arm guy.

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Speaker 1: Great story. Hey, listen, we're going to take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: When we get back again. I'm all about evidence, data

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Speaker 1: and not just word of mouth here, and I want

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Speaker 1: to dive into once again really getting into the effect

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Speaker 1: of velocity on pictures injuries and how quickly it has changed.

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Speaker 1: We'll do that right after this. Our guest is Glenn Flaisig.

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Speaker 1: He is the biomechanics research director at ASMI in Birmingham, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: and Glenn, you mentioned earlier the increase in velocity, and

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to give you a quick thumbnail of

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Speaker 1: how quickly it has gone up. Average four seen velocity

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Speaker 1: from twenty thirteen up to twenty twenty went from ninety

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Speaker 1: two point seven to ninety three point four. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: eight years where it went up gradually, you know, little

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Speaker 1: by little, incrementally point seven miles per hour. In the

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Speaker 1: last three years, it has got up point eight miles

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Speaker 1: per hour. Last year it was in ninety four point two.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing tremendous increases in average annual velocity and the

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Speaker 1: top of the market. This is staggering to me, Glenn.

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Speaker 1: The number of pitchers throwing one hundred miles per hour

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Speaker 1: and the number of pitches at that speed is just incredible.

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Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, only five years ago, the entire season,

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Speaker 1: there were one fifty eight pitches clocked at one hundred

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Speaker 1: miles and above. That's less than one per game. Last

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Speaker 1: year there were three thousand, eight hundred and eighty pitches

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Speaker 1: clocked at one hundred miles per hour. That's more than

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Speaker 1: tripled within five years. So it's not just average velocity.

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Speaker 1: What we're seeing here is the ceiling. More pitchers are

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Speaker 1: getting to that ceiling of what I call ultra velocity.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you're seeing, Glenn.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm seeing the same thing as you. As I said,

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Speaker 4: the body can handle this, and where I wear in

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Speaker 4: this situation is on both sides. It's the teams that

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Speaker 4: have been the data analytics for the teams have been

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Speaker 4: saying to the teams that the pitchers who succeed are

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Speaker 4: the ones who throw the fastest. And then the teams

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Speaker 4: have been putting heavy value on that and have been

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Speaker 4: signing players and training for players, and training for players

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Speaker 4: to throw as fast as possible. That trickles down and

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Speaker 4: now college pictures, high school pictures, Latin American pictures know

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Speaker 4: that their ticket to get drafted is velocity. It's not

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Speaker 4: an e er or or wins or losses. So there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of blame to go around within the major

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Speaker 4: league teams that they are rewarding this, and then the

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Speaker 4: pictures aren't stupid. They're chasing velocity, as Joe says, because

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Speaker 4: this is what gets rewarded. Ben Lindberg and The Ringer

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Speaker 4: put out a story recently, and he was talking about

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Speaker 4: not just some maximum velocity of pictures, but the range

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Speaker 4: of velocity of pictures. This is something I've been talking about,

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Speaker 4: Like I'm saying the picture is going to be most

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Speaker 4: effective and also best chance of staying healthy if they

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Speaker 4: not what their maximum velocity is, but that they have

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Speaker 4: a range lot of fastball velocities. I think that needs

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Speaker 4: to be emphasized more at the team level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe, I actually had a question for you because

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Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting point that certainly the carrot

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Speaker 1: that's out there and the amateur and professional market is

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Speaker 1: chasing velocity. So in your years in Major League Baseball,

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Speaker 1: how much was that spoken and unspoken that we want

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Speaker 1: our guys to throw harder. We are chasing velocity.

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Speaker 2: Because you want bats to be missed. They don't want

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Speaker 2: the ball to be put in play. That's that's really

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Speaker 2: what's going on with that. And then you have the

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Speaker 2: pictures that you would pitch to contact with, which was

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Speaker 2: definitely not in vogue. I think it's becoming more in

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Speaker 2: vogue again because regardless of what analytics, analytics changes, just

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Speaker 2: like everything else, it changes, like what multiple vitamin is

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Speaker 2: good for you or not. It changes, you know, with

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Speaker 2: diet is good for you or not.

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Speaker 3: Now the type of.

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Speaker 2: Pitcher where before to get somebody to pitch the contact

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Speaker 2: was absolutely abhort. And now if you have a good

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Speaker 2: defense behind you, the guy throws a ball on the ground,

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Speaker 2: you kind of dig on that because everybody's trying at

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Speaker 2: the ball in the air. So all this stuff always vacillates.

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Speaker 2: But the velocity, chasing of velocity has always been about

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Speaker 2: that missing bats and listen, I like to strike out,

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Speaker 2: run around third base, and less than two outs.

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Speaker 3: I love it. Just you're kind of talking about throwing

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Speaker 3: within a range.

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Speaker 2: So a guy that has that capability, and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: always have to be a fastball, he has to have

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Speaker 2: that other special pitch that a hitter is going to

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Speaker 2: swing and miss at when he wants him to swing

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Speaker 2: in miss at. If there's times again that if you

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Speaker 2: want to have a starting pitcher pitch more deeply in

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Speaker 2: the games consistently, I like the idea of yeah, being

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Speaker 2: able to pitch the contact, trying to get it out

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Speaker 2: within the first three pitches and at bat that's always

433
00:22:55,518 --> 00:22:57,638
Speaker 2: been an accent. I've here to it. When I was

434
00:22:57,638 --> 00:23:00,158
Speaker 2: in the minor leagues. Is the rover kind of running

435
00:23:00,158 --> 00:23:02,518
Speaker 2: the thing. I wanted the starters to try to get

436
00:23:02,518 --> 00:23:04,758
Speaker 2: a hitter out within the first three pitch. Then if

437
00:23:04,758 --> 00:23:06,198
Speaker 2: you get to the two stuff, they're all trying to

438
00:23:06,198 --> 00:23:08,358
Speaker 2: strike out guys with the first pitches. So listen, you've

439
00:23:08,358 --> 00:23:09,798
Speaker 2: got to get two strikes on it before you could

440
00:23:09,798 --> 00:23:12,718
Speaker 2: strike somebody out, So understand what you're doing out again,

441
00:23:12,758 --> 00:23:15,278
Speaker 2: the art of pitching. That's the range we're talking about

442
00:23:15,318 --> 00:23:18,678
Speaker 2: right here. So for me, I did I mean, I

443
00:23:18,758 --> 00:23:21,198
Speaker 2: like velocity. Everybody likes velocity, but I want pitchers that

444
00:23:21,198 --> 00:23:25,478
Speaker 2: could pitch another situation. They know how to get people

445
00:23:25,478 --> 00:23:28,638
Speaker 2: out based on what the hitter strengths are compared to yours.

446
00:23:28,838 --> 00:23:30,438
Speaker 2: I mean, these are the kind of thoughts that I've

447
00:23:30,438 --> 00:23:33,398
Speaker 2: always had from the dugout. But it's devolved so simply

448
00:23:33,438 --> 00:23:37,358
Speaker 2: because database. We're going to talk about analytics completely. We

449
00:23:37,398 --> 00:23:39,998
Speaker 2: want swings and misses, and that's really what's been chased.

450
00:23:40,038 --> 00:23:44,038
Speaker 2: After the velocity equals swings and misses. I'm saying that

451
00:23:44,598 --> 00:23:47,438
Speaker 2: other pitches you've seen the cutter become more prominent. Then

452
00:23:47,478 --> 00:23:49,718
Speaker 2: it became the elevated fastball, which I loved in Tampa

453
00:23:49,718 --> 00:23:51,878
Speaker 2: Bay years ago. The point is, I think that you

454
00:23:51,918 --> 00:23:53,718
Speaker 2: don't always have to try to throw as hard as

455
00:23:53,758 --> 00:23:57,478
Speaker 2: you can max velocity every pitch. The guys I've always loved,

456
00:23:57,518 --> 00:23:59,998
Speaker 2: and the guys I chase as the scout was those

457
00:24:00,038 --> 00:24:02,958
Speaker 2: that did it easily. They're almost effortless and the ball

458
00:24:02,958 --> 00:24:04,878
Speaker 2: would come out hot. And that's another thing, just a

459
00:24:04,878 --> 00:24:07,638
Speaker 2: scouting term, seeing the ball out of a pitcher's.

460
00:24:07,198 --> 00:24:08,238
Speaker 3: Hand and what it looks like.

461
00:24:08,518 --> 00:24:11,078
Speaker 2: Then I would always focus on that dirt area between

462
00:24:11,198 --> 00:24:13,878
Speaker 2: front of home plate to the catchersman man, the dudes

463
00:24:13,878 --> 00:24:16,238
Speaker 2: that had great carry on the ball. You could just

464
00:24:16,238 --> 00:24:17,438
Speaker 2: see it. I mean, I don't know how you could

465
00:24:17,478 --> 00:24:20,878
Speaker 2: describe it regarding the gun, etc. Maybe you can more

466
00:24:21,118 --> 00:24:23,198
Speaker 2: sophisticatedly with the stuff on.

467
00:24:23,118 --> 00:24:25,438
Speaker 3: The roof these days. But I could see Carrie from

468
00:24:25,518 --> 00:24:27,318
Speaker 3: the side, and I could see swing and miss.

469
00:24:27,398 --> 00:24:30,158
Speaker 2: So this is a long answer, but I'm wanting all

470
00:24:30,198 --> 00:24:32,798
Speaker 2: of these different things. I don't just need velocity, and

471
00:24:32,838 --> 00:24:34,718
Speaker 2: I don't want you to try to strike somebody out

472
00:24:34,758 --> 00:24:35,678
Speaker 2: on the very first pitch.

473
00:24:36,118 --> 00:24:37,998
Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets back to what Len was talking about

474
00:24:38,038 --> 00:24:41,398
Speaker 1: having a range with velocity. There is no pacing, as

475
00:24:41,398 --> 00:24:43,518
Speaker 1: you know, Joe, in the major leagues anymore. Yeah, first

476
00:24:43,558 --> 00:24:45,558
Speaker 1: of all, we don't ask pitchers to pitch three times

477
00:24:45,558 --> 00:24:47,598
Speaker 1: through a lineup, so it's go as hard as you

478
00:24:47,638 --> 00:24:49,518
Speaker 1: can for as long as you can, which generally is

479
00:24:49,558 --> 00:24:52,718
Speaker 1: about eighteen to twenty two batters. That's it. So they're

480
00:24:52,758 --> 00:24:55,438
Speaker 1: in strikeout mode from pitch one, and I'm sure redlining

481
00:24:55,518 --> 00:24:58,438
Speaker 1: like that is also part of this. And Glenn, I

482
00:24:58,438 --> 00:25:01,158
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about something I looked into again.

483
00:25:01,398 --> 00:25:04,798
Speaker 1: The extreme hard throwers. To me, I hate to say this,

484
00:25:04,958 --> 00:25:08,558
Speaker 1: but it's true, are literally breakdowns waiting to happen because

485
00:25:08,598 --> 00:25:12,638
Speaker 1: the body just cannot survive the torque that is on

486
00:25:12,758 --> 00:25:16,358
Speaker 1: the UCL With pitchers who are throwing consistently in the

487
00:25:16,438 --> 00:25:20,038
Speaker 1: upper nineties, I think that is now a proven fact.

488
00:25:20,118 --> 00:25:23,598
Speaker 1: Unless you have some extreme outlier out there. What you're

489
00:25:23,638 --> 00:25:28,078
Speaker 1: doing is you're redlining what the human body can withstand.

490
00:25:28,198 --> 00:25:30,918
Speaker 1: So I went back and I looked at starting pitchers

491
00:25:31,438 --> 00:25:34,318
Speaker 1: who averaged ninety six and a half miles per hour

492
00:25:34,438 --> 00:25:40,398
Speaker 1: or greater since twenty nineteen. Last five seasons, twenty one pittures.

493
00:25:41,158 --> 00:25:45,918
Speaker 1: Eighteen of them have broken down twenty two elbow procedures.

494
00:25:45,958 --> 00:25:49,118
Speaker 1: Among those eighteen pitchers we're talking about, you know, Jacob

495
00:25:49,118 --> 00:25:54,238
Speaker 1: de gram Sanny Elcontera, Noah Sinde, Guard, Jordi Perez, Joey O'tani,

496
00:25:54,758 --> 00:25:59,238
Speaker 1: Drew Rasmus and Tyler, Glasnawz, Sean McClanahan, Walker Bueller, Brandon Wood,

497
00:25:59,718 --> 00:26:03,118
Speaker 1: Luis Sevrino. It goes on and on. To me, this

498
00:26:03,358 --> 00:26:06,598
Speaker 1: is not sustainable. We've been watching this for a period

499
00:26:06,678 --> 00:26:09,358
Speaker 1: of years. If I've got a guy like Jacob deGrom,

500
00:26:09,518 --> 00:26:14,398
Speaker 1: he's thrown ninety nine fastballs and ninety five sliders, I'm sorry, Glenn,

501
00:26:14,398 --> 00:26:17,038
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. The human body, unless you're

502
00:26:17,038 --> 00:26:21,958
Speaker 1: an absolute freak, cannot withstand doing that time after time.

503
00:26:22,318 --> 00:26:25,638
Speaker 4: It's absolutely true. Like I was trying to say, anatomically,

504
00:26:26,078 --> 00:26:29,198
Speaker 4: you can get the big guys have big bones, They're

505
00:26:29,278 --> 00:26:32,118
Speaker 4: large guys that you could train to make your muscles big.

506
00:26:32,158 --> 00:26:35,158
Speaker 4: But this little owner cloudel liigment is this teeny little

507
00:26:35,238 --> 00:26:38,238
Speaker 4: rubber band thing in your elbow and all this training,

508
00:26:38,718 --> 00:26:41,598
Speaker 4: these things are just so strong, these owner cloudeal ligaments,

509
00:26:41,598 --> 00:26:45,358
Speaker 4: and clearly we're pushing them past what they can handle.

510
00:26:45,598 --> 00:26:47,718
Speaker 1: You know, I remember talking to Chris Young when they

511
00:26:47,758 --> 00:26:50,078
Speaker 1: signed Jacob de Grom. He said, you know, we'd talked

512
00:26:50,078 --> 00:26:52,918
Speaker 1: to our training staff and we regard this as a challenge.

513
00:26:53,278 --> 00:26:55,798
Speaker 1: It's the word he used a challenge to keep him healthy.

514
00:26:56,198 --> 00:26:59,158
Speaker 1: When the anecdotal evidence tells you you're not going to

515
00:26:59,198 --> 00:27:01,398
Speaker 1: win that challenge. I'm sorry, Well.

516
00:27:01,318 --> 00:27:02,718
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, what is the speed limit?

517
00:27:03,038 --> 00:27:03,158
Speaker 4: Right?

518
00:27:03,238 --> 00:27:04,838
Speaker 3: Is there a speed limit? Do you have to put

519
00:27:04,878 --> 00:27:05,798
Speaker 3: a speed limit out there?

520
00:27:05,958 --> 00:27:08,758
Speaker 2: You have to have the the police come by within

521
00:27:08,798 --> 00:27:11,238
Speaker 2: each within each organization and try to keep a guy

522
00:27:11,278 --> 00:27:14,518
Speaker 2: to max number in order to keep him healthy. Is

523
00:27:14,518 --> 00:27:16,358
Speaker 2: is there, like you just mentioned, the people that broke

524
00:27:16,398 --> 00:27:19,118
Speaker 2: down after a certain point, is there a larger number

525
00:27:19,158 --> 00:27:21,918
Speaker 2: that stay healthy within a certain range also? And it

526
00:27:21,958 --> 00:27:23,438
Speaker 2: would that even be attracted to people.

527
00:27:23,478 --> 00:27:24,518
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I.

528
00:27:25,438 --> 00:27:27,398
Speaker 2: Do believe you could build a really good Major League

529
00:27:27,438 --> 00:27:32,318
Speaker 2: picture minus max effort. And I still, quite frankly, I'd

530
00:27:32,318 --> 00:27:34,918
Speaker 2: like to have Marcel Latchman look at my pictures as

531
00:27:34,918 --> 00:27:37,678
Speaker 2: an example, or mister Paul Dick Paul look at my

532
00:27:37,758 --> 00:27:41,638
Speaker 2: pictures as an example. These the pitching coaches that I've

533
00:27:41,638 --> 00:27:44,358
Speaker 2: known for years that are outstanding.

534
00:27:43,798 --> 00:27:44,438
Speaker 3: What they do.

535
00:27:44,918 --> 00:27:46,918
Speaker 2: I want them to look at my pictures, regardless of

536
00:27:46,918 --> 00:27:49,518
Speaker 2: what any kind of data mind say to me. I

537
00:27:49,558 --> 00:27:52,158
Speaker 2: want those guys to look at my pictures right from

538
00:27:52,198 --> 00:27:54,438
Speaker 2: the You work from the ground up, and these guys

539
00:27:54,438 --> 00:27:56,998
Speaker 2: work from the ground up, and they have certain tried

540
00:27:57,038 --> 00:27:58,238
Speaker 2: and truths that they've used their.

541
00:27:58,198 --> 00:27:59,638
Speaker 3: Entire life career.

542
00:28:00,838 --> 00:28:03,398
Speaker 2: I really think with that you would have less breakdown

543
00:28:03,438 --> 00:28:06,238
Speaker 2: as opposed to always relying on withness perceived to be

544
00:28:06,318 --> 00:28:10,118
Speaker 2: the best mechanics via putting dots on a pitcher's bodies.

545
00:28:10,358 --> 00:28:13,678
Speaker 2: Because everybody works differently, and every kid's been throwing differently

546
00:28:13,678 --> 00:28:16,398
Speaker 2: from a certain age, I think you're better off working

547
00:28:16,438 --> 00:28:19,638
Speaker 2: within what this guy looks like and building off of

548
00:28:19,638 --> 00:28:22,718
Speaker 2: that the necessarily changing. I was always afraid as a

549
00:28:22,758 --> 00:28:25,238
Speaker 2: scout and then a minor league manager early on, like

550
00:28:25,598 --> 00:28:28,198
Speaker 2: rookie ball, I always talk about change his armstroke?

551
00:28:28,238 --> 00:28:29,118
Speaker 3: Are you created kidding me?

552
00:28:29,278 --> 00:28:31,638
Speaker 2: When Gilito had his armstroke changed a couple years ago,

553
00:28:31,798 --> 00:28:34,078
Speaker 2: a lot of immediate success with that. It looked great,

554
00:28:34,278 --> 00:28:36,398
Speaker 2: he went into that shorter stroke. I mean, for me

555
00:28:36,878 --> 00:28:39,998
Speaker 2: as a rookie ball manager, I wouldn't do that. I

556
00:28:39,998 --> 00:28:41,718
Speaker 2: wouldn't want to do that because I'm afraid that you're

557
00:28:41,718 --> 00:28:44,678
Speaker 2: going to get a long term negative, negative benefit, if

558
00:28:44,678 --> 00:28:47,318
Speaker 2: that's parper way of saying it. So those are the

559
00:28:47,358 --> 00:28:50,598
Speaker 2: things that I'm really really aware of, and I was

560
00:28:50,638 --> 00:28:53,598
Speaker 2: taught by some really good coaches early on, and things

561
00:28:53,638 --> 00:28:56,918
Speaker 2: that I've adhered too. Be careful when you're starting to

562
00:28:56,998 --> 00:29:00,838
Speaker 2: change ARMStrokes, be very very careful, especially if a kid's

563
00:29:00,838 --> 00:29:02,518
Speaker 2: been throwing one way for a long period of time.

564
00:29:02,918 --> 00:29:05,878
Speaker 4: Joe, I'm going to actually I want to tell your

565
00:29:05,918 --> 00:29:09,278
Speaker 4: listeners and stuff. You know this the mindset in a

566
00:29:09,278 --> 00:29:11,998
Speaker 4: major league baseball organization. It's a little different than what

567
00:29:12,038 --> 00:29:15,398
Speaker 4: you just said. For sure, the major league pitchers, the guy,

568
00:29:15,478 --> 00:29:18,118
Speaker 4: the thirteen guys on the major league team, the teams

569
00:29:18,238 --> 00:29:20,638
Speaker 4: essentially don't want to mess around the pitcheon. Coach doesn't

570
00:29:20,638 --> 00:29:22,478
Speaker 4: want to mess around. I don't want to get fired

571
00:29:22,518 --> 00:29:25,278
Speaker 4: when this guy gets hurt. So the minor league is

572
00:29:25,358 --> 00:29:28,998
Speaker 4: more of a of a playground for the teams and

573
00:29:29,078 --> 00:29:31,678
Speaker 4: probably in your experience as well, the minor league there's

574
00:29:31,718 --> 00:29:34,438
Speaker 4: a minor league pitcher who probably might not be major

575
00:29:34,518 --> 00:29:37,438
Speaker 4: league quality unless we make some changes. So there's more

576
00:29:37,438 --> 00:29:40,278
Speaker 4: of a willingness at the minor league level of the coaches,

577
00:29:40,558 --> 00:29:43,758
Speaker 4: the team, and the players to make change, whereas once

578
00:29:43,798 --> 00:29:45,838
Speaker 4: they make it to the major leagues they're more locked in.

579
00:29:45,838 --> 00:29:47,118
Speaker 4: Would you agree with that.

580
00:29:47,278 --> 00:29:49,518
Speaker 2: Yeah, The changes a lot of times on a minor

581
00:29:49,598 --> 00:29:52,998
Speaker 2: league level would be to add another pitch. It might

582
00:29:53,038 --> 00:29:55,718
Speaker 2: be like for some guy the velocity wasn't quite there

583
00:29:55,718 --> 00:29:57,958
Speaker 2: and he wasn't missing enough bats. Just change his arm stroke,

584
00:29:58,078 --> 00:30:00,918
Speaker 2: like maybe an underward pitcher as an example. It was

585
00:30:01,038 --> 00:30:03,318
Speaker 2: rare that you would get a guy that threw more

586
00:30:03,358 --> 00:30:05,358
Speaker 2: conventional and if you just left him alone and just

587
00:30:05,358 --> 00:30:06,878
Speaker 2: gave him a couple thoughts that it's going to turn

588
00:30:06,878 --> 00:30:09,838
Speaker 2: around completely. And we never saw that kind of advance

589
00:30:09,878 --> 00:30:12,758
Speaker 2: in velocity over a period of time. Like if a

590
00:30:12,798 --> 00:30:15,398
Speaker 2: guy was just a soso a ball or double a

591
00:30:15,518 --> 00:30:17,398
Speaker 2: pitcher and all of a sudden he gave him something

592
00:30:17,438 --> 00:30:19,438
Speaker 2: to think about, he's throwing five six seven miles an

593
00:30:19,438 --> 00:30:22,638
Speaker 2: hour harder. That was rare, if ever, that that did happen.

594
00:30:23,078 --> 00:30:24,958
Speaker 2: The thing that we did like to do was the

595
00:30:25,078 --> 00:30:27,638
Speaker 2: cherry picking a catcher with a good arm all of

596
00:30:27,638 --> 00:30:29,918
Speaker 2: a sudden, you, Troy Percival, you put him on the mound.

597
00:30:30,078 --> 00:30:33,558
Speaker 2: Trevor Huffin was a short stop at your University of Arizona.

598
00:30:33,838 --> 00:30:35,638
Speaker 2: Say how smart I was as a scout. I wanted

599
00:30:35,678 --> 00:30:37,118
Speaker 2: to put him. I said, this guy's going to make

600
00:30:37,118 --> 00:30:38,998
Speaker 2: a great catcher someday because he couldn't hit that well.

601
00:30:39,158 --> 00:30:41,118
Speaker 2: And of course he becomes the best closer ever, one

602
00:30:41,118 --> 00:30:44,398
Speaker 2: of the best. So the cherry picking looking for good arms.

603
00:30:44,438 --> 00:30:47,318
Speaker 2: I think that was that's really productive on the minor

604
00:30:47,398 --> 00:30:49,198
Speaker 2: league levels, and I was always interested in that.

605
00:30:49,358 --> 00:30:49,998
Speaker 3: Outfielders.

606
00:30:49,998 --> 00:30:51,758
Speaker 2: There was the kid a couple of years ago may

607
00:30:51,758 --> 00:30:54,478
Speaker 2: Hey came from the outfield and had a over the

608
00:30:54,478 --> 00:30:56,758
Speaker 2: top armstroke. And that's the other thing, like armstroke, Like

609
00:30:56,798 --> 00:30:57,318
Speaker 2: over the top.

610
00:30:57,358 --> 00:30:58,278
Speaker 3: I love over the top.

611
00:30:58,598 --> 00:31:00,838
Speaker 2: If you throw over top cutter elevated cut her in

612
00:31:01,238 --> 00:31:02,958
Speaker 2: that's what I kind of loved. I mean, I could

613
00:31:02,998 --> 00:31:04,718
Speaker 2: start breaking it down for the things that I like,

614
00:31:04,758 --> 00:31:07,278
Speaker 2: and that's what we want to talk about. But yes,

615
00:31:07,918 --> 00:31:11,358
Speaker 2: the minor leagues is more of a experimental place, and

616
00:31:11,438 --> 00:31:13,358
Speaker 2: you're right. I mean, if a kid's not doing well,

617
00:31:13,358 --> 00:31:16,278
Speaker 2: he'll do anything to stay there and maybe advanced with

618
00:31:16,318 --> 00:31:19,678
Speaker 2: the big leagues. But my experience was most of the time,

619
00:31:19,878 --> 00:31:20,398
Speaker 2: you're going to.

620
00:31:20,398 --> 00:31:21,158
Speaker 3: Get the one rare one.

621
00:31:21,158 --> 00:31:22,638
Speaker 2: You're right, you're going to get a rare guy now,

622
00:31:22,678 --> 00:31:25,118
Speaker 2: and then for the most part, it just didn't work.

623
00:31:25,158 --> 00:31:26,598
Speaker 2: If it didn't work over a period of time, it's

624
00:31:26,598 --> 00:31:27,318
Speaker 2: just not going to work.

625
00:31:27,478 --> 00:31:29,438
Speaker 1: Glen. One more issue I want to ask you about,

626
00:31:29,478 --> 00:31:32,798
Speaker 1: because as I mentioned, things have happened really quickly. The

627
00:31:32,918 --> 00:31:36,518
Speaker 1: changes in the game, I believe with the proliferation of

628
00:31:36,558 --> 00:31:39,398
Speaker 1: the pitching laboratories, if you will, both on the major

629
00:31:39,478 --> 00:31:42,278
Speaker 1: league level and the amateur market have really exploded, I

630
00:31:42,278 --> 00:31:43,918
Speaker 1: want to say, in the last five years, and we're

631
00:31:43,958 --> 00:31:46,318
Speaker 1: seeing the changes in the major leagues. We talked a

632
00:31:46,358 --> 00:31:51,238
Speaker 1: lot about velocity. Almost counterintuitively, the number of fastballs throwing

633
00:31:51,278 --> 00:31:53,678
Speaker 1: to the major leagues actually is going down. For the

634
00:31:53,718 --> 00:31:56,398
Speaker 1: first time in the history of baseball. Fastballs are now

635
00:31:56,718 --> 00:31:59,678
Speaker 1: a minority of the total pitches that are thrown. It

636
00:31:59,718 --> 00:32:03,678
Speaker 1: is not the primary pitch. And especially in the last

637
00:32:03,718 --> 00:32:06,158
Speaker 1: couple couple of years, we're seeing teams go to more

638
00:32:06,278 --> 00:32:09,158
Speaker 1: and more spin. Why because there's the swing of miss

639
00:32:09,238 --> 00:32:12,638
Speaker 1: Joe was talking about. An average slider, for instance, is

640
00:32:12,678 --> 00:32:16,158
Speaker 1: harder to hit than an elite fastball. So they're chasing

641
00:32:16,198 --> 00:32:19,478
Speaker 1: these numbers. And part of chasing those numbers is getting

642
00:32:19,478 --> 00:32:23,478
Speaker 1: on the iPads and looking at the pitch shapes, the paths,

643
00:32:23,598 --> 00:32:26,918
Speaker 1: and the spin and beginning to tailor the shapes and

644
00:32:26,998 --> 00:32:30,318
Speaker 1: spins of those pitches to make those pitches more unhittable.

645
00:32:30,798 --> 00:32:32,878
Speaker 1: And by doing so, and this is my theory, Glenn,

646
00:32:32,878 --> 00:32:35,198
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about I think what we're

647
00:32:35,238 --> 00:32:39,398
Speaker 1: doing is we're finishing pitches harder the grips, the way

648
00:32:39,398 --> 00:32:41,518
Speaker 1: the ball is spinning out of the hand. If you're

649
00:32:41,558 --> 00:32:44,158
Speaker 1: trying for more spin, if you're trying for more break,

650
00:32:44,558 --> 00:32:48,038
Speaker 1: there's more effort associated from the wrist on down to

651
00:32:48,078 --> 00:32:52,118
Speaker 1: finish those pitches. And we're seeing now, you know, injuries

652
00:32:52,158 --> 00:32:54,358
Speaker 1: we didn't hear about very much before. The flexs are

653
00:32:54,358 --> 00:32:57,718
Speaker 1: tender muscle, or the flex are tended in the forearm.

654
00:32:58,278 --> 00:33:00,918
Speaker 1: What is going on and how do you equate some

655
00:33:00,998 --> 00:33:04,518
Speaker 1: of these injuries? Now with the increase in space, I.

656
00:33:04,478 --> 00:33:06,798
Speaker 4: Want to talk a little about velocity and then spin.

657
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:09,518
Speaker 4: I want to say that the velocity, the chasing velocity,

658
00:33:09,958 --> 00:33:13,318
Speaker 4: and the load on the elbow velocites not just fastballs

659
00:33:13,358 --> 00:33:16,158
Speaker 4: only the guys are throwing sliders and current boles at

660
00:33:16,318 --> 00:33:19,838
Speaker 4: higher speeds, sweepers at higher speeds. The research has shown

661
00:33:19,998 --> 00:33:22,478
Speaker 4: that the higher the speed of breaking pitches, the more

662
00:33:22,478 --> 00:33:25,518
Speaker 4: stressful they are, so velocity is not just a fastball

663
00:33:25,558 --> 00:33:28,558
Speaker 4: issues all pitch issue now as far as the spin

664
00:33:28,638 --> 00:33:31,958
Speaker 4: goes and spin rate, biomechanics research has shown in general

665
00:33:32,398 --> 00:33:36,518
Speaker 4: that fastballs and breaking pitches actually produce about the same

666
00:33:36,518 --> 00:33:40,478
Speaker 4: amount of stress on an elbow. Change ups in the

667
00:33:40,558 --> 00:33:44,518
Speaker 4: biomechanics lab produce less stress on the elbow. But whether

668
00:33:44,558 --> 00:33:48,038
Speaker 4: you throw a max effort current bowl or fastball or sweeper,

669
00:33:48,398 --> 00:33:51,238
Speaker 4: these things seem to be the same effort as the fastball.

670
00:33:51,318 --> 00:33:54,238
Speaker 4: So really Tom just adding up all the max effort

671
00:33:54,278 --> 00:33:58,398
Speaker 4: pitches seems to be the problem. The issue about whether

672
00:33:58,838 --> 00:34:03,158
Speaker 4: the gripping it harder to get more spin is causing

673
00:34:04,278 --> 00:34:08,158
Speaker 4: more stress or risk on the elbow is unknown. I've

674
00:34:08,198 --> 00:34:11,558
Speaker 4: had a lot of conversations with doctor Andrews, doctor Meister

675
00:34:12,078 --> 00:34:14,318
Speaker 4: and some others, and we're trying to figure this out.

676
00:34:14,358 --> 00:34:18,678
Speaker 4: We don't have the answers that data. One possibility is

677
00:34:18,718 --> 00:34:22,798
Speaker 4: that the extra grip actually does not put more load

678
00:34:22,878 --> 00:34:26,918
Speaker 4: on the under kloinal ligran. The extra grip actually protects

679
00:34:27,678 --> 00:34:31,918
Speaker 4: the ligament because your flexer pronator mass, your four muscles

680
00:34:31,958 --> 00:34:35,518
Speaker 4: actually go right where the UCL is, and if you're

681
00:34:35,598 --> 00:34:39,598
Speaker 4: using your muscles, it actually lessens the load on the UCL. However,

682
00:34:40,078 --> 00:34:42,518
Speaker 4: if you're gripping everything so hard, maybe later in the

683
00:34:42,518 --> 00:34:46,558
Speaker 4: game your muscles have fatigued and now the UCL is exposed.

684
00:34:46,798 --> 00:34:50,678
Speaker 4: The other possibility doctor Meister's talking with me, and the

685
00:34:50,758 --> 00:34:54,158
Speaker 4: other possibility is that when you do grip, the muscle

686
00:34:54,958 --> 00:34:58,798
Speaker 4: is not protecting the UCL, it's actually essentially yanking on

687
00:34:58,838 --> 00:35:02,238
Speaker 4: the UCL and causing a little more risk of injury.

688
00:35:02,318 --> 00:35:07,718
Speaker 4: So the jury is out scientifically about whether more grip

689
00:35:08,078 --> 00:35:12,798
Speaker 4: to get more spin is a protective or if it's dangerous.

690
00:35:13,118 --> 00:35:13,678
Speaker 4: Jury's out.

691
00:35:13,678 --> 00:35:16,478
Speaker 2: Still one quick comment there, Tommy, just part of the

692
00:35:17,398 --> 00:35:19,958
Speaker 2: breaking ball being more effective in the utilization of that

693
00:35:19,998 --> 00:35:23,798
Speaker 2: more that's also a direct result of greater velocity because

694
00:35:23,918 --> 00:35:26,518
Speaker 2: hitters have to get ready sooner because they know what

695
00:35:26,558 --> 00:35:29,798
Speaker 2: a velocity number might be. They know their little internal

696
00:35:29,838 --> 00:35:31,998
Speaker 2: clock with ninety five, ninety six to ninety seven feels

697
00:35:31,998 --> 00:35:34,558
Speaker 2: like so poom poom poom. I got to get ready sooner,

698
00:35:34,558 --> 00:35:35,878
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, here comes the breaking

699
00:35:35,918 --> 00:35:38,798
Speaker 2: ball off of that. So in a way, by throwing harder,

700
00:35:38,878 --> 00:35:42,158
Speaker 2: that makes your breaking ball better, just from a mental perspective,

701
00:35:42,158 --> 00:35:43,198
Speaker 2: from the hitter's perspective.

702
00:35:43,278 --> 00:35:45,518
Speaker 4: So you're saying, by throwing the fastball harder.

703
00:35:45,278 --> 00:35:47,638
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, because then after that you got you got

704
00:35:47,678 --> 00:35:50,158
Speaker 2: to mentally get ready sooner. So and all of a sudden,

705
00:35:50,158 --> 00:35:52,558
Speaker 2: if you're thrown from the same slot and it's unrecognizable

706
00:35:52,878 --> 00:35:55,278
Speaker 2: and hitter has already gotten ready for the fastball because

707
00:35:55,278 --> 00:35:58,438
Speaker 2: he has to. I've always taught, you know, hit fastball first,

708
00:35:58,518 --> 00:36:01,118
Speaker 2: get you get your fastball hacked ready first. When you

709
00:36:01,198 --> 00:36:04,038
Speaker 2: do do that, then eventually you're gonna, I think, and

710
00:36:04,118 --> 00:36:06,638
Speaker 2: chase more breaking balls because of that. Or you could

711
00:36:06,678 --> 00:36:08,958
Speaker 2: go the other route, and I've seen guys do that,

712
00:36:09,038 --> 00:36:12,198
Speaker 2: like the based on what Tommy's talking about, the hitters.

713
00:36:11,958 --> 00:36:13,518
Speaker 3: Going to go up there looking breaking ball, You're going

714
00:36:13,558 --> 00:36:14,158
Speaker 3: to look soft.

715
00:36:14,558 --> 00:36:16,238
Speaker 2: And with that, you're seeing a lot of guys not

716
00:36:16,238 --> 00:36:18,318
Speaker 2: being able to hit a fastball being late because of that,

717
00:36:18,798 --> 00:36:20,678
Speaker 2: which is not really a bad tack anymore, because they

718
00:36:20,718 --> 00:36:22,838
Speaker 2: know they're going to see the breaking ball. And after all,

719
00:36:23,038 --> 00:36:25,358
Speaker 2: I still believe the breaking ball strikes a lot easier

720
00:36:25,398 --> 00:36:26,518
Speaker 2: to hit than the fastball strike.

721
00:36:26,838 --> 00:36:28,558
Speaker 1: Yeah, just take a look at what the Boston Red

722
00:36:28,598 --> 00:36:30,598
Speaker 1: Sox are doing this year. They brought in Andrew Bailey

723
00:36:30,598 --> 00:36:33,198
Speaker 1: as they're pitching coach, Craig Breslow as their general manager.

724
00:36:33,638 --> 00:36:36,598
Speaker 1: The Boston Red Sox are throwing fewer fastballs than any

725
00:36:36,598 --> 00:36:41,318
Speaker 1: team in baseball. They are in the twenty percent throwing fastballs,

726
00:36:41,318 --> 00:36:44,118
Speaker 1: between twenty five and twenty nine percent fastballs this year.

727
00:36:44,278 --> 00:36:48,358
Speaker 1: That is unheard of, certainly even as recently as five

728
00:36:48,438 --> 00:36:52,278
Speaker 1: years ago. So Glenn You've been obviously very very helpful

729
00:36:52,278 --> 00:36:54,678
Speaker 1: to explaining to us what's been going on. I call

730
00:36:54,758 --> 00:36:57,318
Speaker 1: this an epidemic. I think you would agree we're heading

731
00:36:57,398 --> 00:36:59,918
Speaker 1: to something to me that is not sustainable. But I

732
00:36:59,958 --> 00:37:03,518
Speaker 1: want to end here with you on reasons to be optimistic,

733
00:37:04,078 --> 00:37:07,478
Speaker 1: because I think we all agree that everyone in the

734
00:37:07,518 --> 00:37:12,958
Speaker 1: game should be concerned, teams, coaches, players especially, So when

735
00:37:12,998 --> 00:37:16,278
Speaker 1: there is universal concern, you would think there is universal

736
00:37:16,478 --> 00:37:19,078
Speaker 1: agreement to do something about it. I know you're part

737
00:37:19,198 --> 00:37:22,918
Speaker 1: of a widespread study by Major League Baseball taking in

738
00:37:23,038 --> 00:37:27,958
Speaker 1: all kinds of opinions, doctors, trainers, physicians, coaches, you name it,

739
00:37:28,398 --> 00:37:32,518
Speaker 1: by mechanical experts. What do you see on the horizon,

740
00:37:32,638 --> 00:37:36,238
Speaker 1: either short term or long term that can at least

741
00:37:36,238 --> 00:37:38,078
Speaker 1: put the brakes on this epidemic.

742
00:37:38,358 --> 00:37:40,038
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because I want

743
00:37:40,038 --> 00:37:41,678
Speaker 4: to end on a happy note, not just all a

744
00:37:41,718 --> 00:37:45,558
Speaker 4: doom and gloom. But we've been down this road before.

745
00:37:45,558 --> 00:37:48,998
Speaker 4: Ten years ago we had this conversation. There was a

746
00:37:49,118 --> 00:37:51,718
Speaker 4: rash of injuries in twenty fourteen or so in Major

747
00:37:51,758 --> 00:37:55,558
Speaker 4: League Baseball partnered with USA Baseball and we made the

748
00:37:55,598 --> 00:37:57,918
Speaker 4: pitch Smart program. We figured out at that time ten

749
00:37:57,998 --> 00:38:01,798
Speaker 4: years ago, the biggest issue were amateur pitchers pitching too

750
00:38:01,838 --> 00:38:05,878
Speaker 4: much year round, and it didn't solve the pitching injuries,

751
00:38:06,278 --> 00:38:09,918
Speaker 4: but it slowed down the rise of pitching injuries. It

752
00:38:09,918 --> 00:38:12,318
Speaker 4: did work. And then you know, as we all know,

753
00:38:12,358 --> 00:38:15,438
Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, major League Baseball saw the

754
00:38:15,598 --> 00:38:17,798
Speaker 4: entertainment value of the game needed to be better, and

755
00:38:17,838 --> 00:38:20,318
Speaker 4: they did some studies on pitch timers obviously in the

756
00:38:20,358 --> 00:38:23,198
Speaker 4: news right now and other things, and I think we

757
00:38:23,238 --> 00:38:26,278
Speaker 4: all agree baseball is more entertaining than now. So I

758
00:38:26,318 --> 00:38:29,358
Speaker 4: think there is a mechanism. I think that model is

759
00:38:29,398 --> 00:38:32,518
Speaker 4: what we're going to follow, as you said, Tom myself

760
00:38:32,598 --> 00:38:36,838
Speaker 4: and Major League Baseball. There's a research committee going on,

761
00:38:37,118 --> 00:38:40,638
Speaker 4: exploratory committee trying to figure out what to do, because,

762
00:38:40,998 --> 00:38:43,878
Speaker 4: like with the entertainment situation a couple of years ago,

763
00:38:44,478 --> 00:38:47,518
Speaker 4: we want to identify what are the factors, really quantify

764
00:38:47,598 --> 00:38:51,518
Speaker 4: them scientifically, and then think about what we could propose

765
00:38:51,558 --> 00:38:56,478
Speaker 4: and implement as new rules, essentially at the major league level.

766
00:38:56,638 --> 00:38:58,638
Speaker 4: And I can't disclose some of the things that are

767
00:38:58,638 --> 00:39:01,878
Speaker 4: being brainstormed right now, but I am encouraged. I think

768
00:39:02,038 --> 00:39:05,238
Speaker 4: Major League Baseball is very interesting in reducing the number

769
00:39:05,238 --> 00:39:08,358
Speaker 4: of injuries from the Commissioner's Office and Major League Baseball,

770
00:39:08,758 --> 00:39:11,958
Speaker 4: and I think we are going to study and implement

771
00:39:12,038 --> 00:39:16,038
Speaker 4: some maybe some crazy ideas and try to get a

772
00:39:16,038 --> 00:39:18,918
Speaker 4: grip on this. So I am optimistic that on the

773
00:39:18,958 --> 00:39:22,478
Speaker 4: horizon we're going to implement some things to hopefully help

774
00:39:22,518 --> 00:39:23,238
Speaker 4: this well.

775
00:39:23,278 --> 00:39:25,038
Speaker 1: I hope you're right. I hope we have reached a

776
00:39:25,118 --> 00:39:28,958
Speaker 1: tipping point here because I as I think, I think

777
00:39:28,958 --> 00:39:32,638
Speaker 1: this generation has failed this generation of pitchers. We've taught

778
00:39:32,678 --> 00:39:36,358
Speaker 1: the generation how to throw and to throw harder, but

779
00:39:36,398 --> 00:39:38,718
Speaker 1: we've not taught them how to pitch and most especially

780
00:39:38,798 --> 00:39:42,278
Speaker 1: to stay healthy. So hopefully there are some answers on

781
00:39:42,318 --> 00:39:44,478
Speaker 1: the horizon. It's going to take people like you, Glenn,

782
00:39:44,518 --> 00:39:47,358
Speaker 1: and all the experts to get their heads together as

783
00:39:47,398 --> 00:39:49,678
Speaker 1: a collective effort, and hopefully it's something that the players

784
00:39:50,318 --> 00:39:52,958
Speaker 1: and Major League Baseball get together on because it's it's

785
00:39:53,198 --> 00:39:56,598
Speaker 1: pitcher's health. It's just paramount to the really the history

786
00:39:56,598 --> 00:39:58,278
Speaker 1: of the game. When you think about it, Joe, you

787
00:39:58,318 --> 00:40:01,078
Speaker 1: know this when you're growing up or you're a fan now,

788
00:40:01,678 --> 00:40:03,758
Speaker 1: the first thing you ask when you think about going

789
00:40:03,798 --> 00:40:06,558
Speaker 1: to a game is who's the starting pitchers? Right? We

790
00:40:06,678 --> 00:40:09,838
Speaker 1: need those starting pitchers to be stars again, and you

791
00:40:09,878 --> 00:40:11,718
Speaker 1: can't do that when you're on the il with a

792
00:40:11,958 --> 00:40:13,438
Speaker 1: blown out UCLA.

793
00:40:13,558 --> 00:40:15,478
Speaker 2: Keep in mind the Marquee matchup as you guys are

794
00:40:15,478 --> 00:40:18,358
Speaker 2: putting this together, the Marquee matchup, you always check the

795
00:40:18,398 --> 00:40:21,678
Speaker 2: probables every day. Buddy Black and I would always tease

796
00:40:21,758 --> 00:40:24,158
Speaker 2: each other about that when we coach with the Angels. Oh,

797
00:40:24,238 --> 00:40:27,758
Speaker 2: there's a Marquee matchup today. And within that Marquee matchup,

798
00:40:27,918 --> 00:40:30,798
Speaker 2: I mean, I think at some point, the third time

799
00:40:30,838 --> 00:40:33,278
Speaker 2: through the batting order, nonsense has got to go away.

800
00:40:34,198 --> 00:40:36,278
Speaker 2: I really believe that you have to. And part of

801
00:40:36,278 --> 00:40:37,998
Speaker 2: that is a teacher got to pitch and not just throw.

802
00:40:38,078 --> 00:40:40,878
Speaker 2: He's gonna run out of gas, very limited things that

803
00:40:40,918 --> 00:40:42,918
Speaker 2: he can do, And primarily I think it's just gonna fatigue.

804
00:40:42,918 --> 00:40:45,038
Speaker 2: The fatigue things going to get them latter part of

805
00:40:45,038 --> 00:40:46,718
Speaker 2: the game if they don't have something else to go

806
00:40:46,798 --> 00:40:49,438
Speaker 2: to the third time through the batting order. I'd love

807
00:40:49,478 --> 00:40:51,118
Speaker 2: to see that. With that, you're going to have a

808
00:40:51,118 --> 00:40:55,078
Speaker 2: better bullpens. Bullpens that aren't distressed as much right down

809
00:40:55,158 --> 00:40:57,878
Speaker 2: the line. So I'm all about the Marquee matchup. I'm

810
00:40:57,878 --> 00:41:01,598
Speaker 2: all about bringing starting pitching back. Really as a manager,

811
00:41:01,878 --> 00:41:03,358
Speaker 2: when you have that. I was thinking about this the

812
00:41:03,358 --> 00:41:06,158
Speaker 2: other day, that throw two hundred innings when I was

813
00:41:06,158 --> 00:41:08,958
Speaker 2: with the Rays and that was two thousand, what six

814
00:41:09,238 --> 00:41:12,558
Speaker 2: through fourteen? Every year I would annually talk to my

815
00:41:12,678 --> 00:41:18,078
Speaker 2: starting pitchers, James Shields, David Price, Alex Cobb, some pretty

816
00:41:18,118 --> 00:41:19,998
Speaker 2: good group of guys, Scotty Kasmer.

817
00:41:20,278 --> 00:41:22,158
Speaker 3: Our goal is two hundred innings a piece. I want.

818
00:41:22,398 --> 00:41:24,758
Speaker 2: I wanted a thousand innings out of my starting pitchers,

819
00:41:25,078 --> 00:41:27,078
Speaker 2: not just five. It might be six, it might be seven.

820
00:41:27,078 --> 00:41:29,918
Speaker 2: I don't think it's unreasonable. I mean, everybody thinks that's unreasonable.

821
00:41:29,958 --> 00:41:32,118
Speaker 2: And these guys pitch for a long time. Those are

822
00:41:32,158 --> 00:41:34,598
Speaker 2: the kind of thoughts I'd like to see explored and

823
00:41:34,878 --> 00:41:38,238
Speaker 2: build a longevity there because part of the answer, a solution,

824
00:41:38,358 --> 00:41:40,438
Speaker 2: I think, is within that. If you're if I'm gonna

825
00:41:40,478 --> 00:41:42,198
Speaker 2: challenge you to pitch two hundred innings this year, I

826
00:41:42,278 --> 00:41:44,758
Speaker 2: gotta make all my starts. I got to pitch into

827
00:41:44,798 --> 00:41:47,278
Speaker 2: that sixth inning often or better. And how do I

828
00:41:47,318 --> 00:41:49,158
Speaker 2: do that? And what's the number of pitches you're gonna

829
00:41:49,158 --> 00:41:51,918
Speaker 2: permit me to throw? Like with Shields, when James got

830
00:41:51,918 --> 00:41:55,158
Speaker 2: to one oh eight for the first time successfully and

831
00:41:55,158 --> 00:41:58,238
Speaker 2: I let him go beyond that. After that, he took off.

832
00:41:58,278 --> 00:42:01,838
Speaker 2: He absolutely took off. We can't attempt to clone everybody.

833
00:42:01,838 --> 00:42:04,558
Speaker 2: We can't try to make everybody the same, Kat and

834
00:42:04,558 --> 00:42:06,678
Speaker 2: I think that's part of the issue the way we

835
00:42:06,878 --> 00:42:09,598
Speaker 2: deal with society in general. We all want everybody to

836
00:42:09,598 --> 00:42:13,158
Speaker 2: be the same. Don't overlook the individuality of each guy

837
00:42:13,158 --> 00:42:14,678
Speaker 2: and how they throw and how long they've been thrown

838
00:42:14,758 --> 00:42:15,158
Speaker 2: that way.

839
00:42:15,438 --> 00:42:16,478
Speaker 3: I think that's important.

840
00:42:16,838 --> 00:42:18,598
Speaker 2: And I also think it's important to permit them to

841
00:42:18,598 --> 00:42:21,198
Speaker 2: be athletes and permit them to be great and not

842
00:42:21,198 --> 00:42:21,878
Speaker 2: get in their way.

843
00:42:21,958 --> 00:42:23,278
Speaker 3: I think that's all part of the equation.

844
00:42:23,718 --> 00:42:26,038
Speaker 1: Well, Glenn, you're always welcome to come back on the

845
00:42:26,038 --> 00:42:29,198
Speaker 1: Book of Joe. You're a great guest because you bring

846
00:42:29,318 --> 00:42:31,878
Speaker 1: some common sense approach, you bring the data, you bring

847
00:42:31,918 --> 00:42:34,758
Speaker 1: the evidence, and hopefully next time we have you on

848
00:42:34,798 --> 00:42:36,678
Speaker 1: you're bringing some solutions as.

849
00:42:36,518 --> 00:42:37,958
Speaker 3: Well, I hope. So.

850
00:42:38,278 --> 00:42:40,118
Speaker 4: I always enjoy talking with you guys as well.

851
00:42:40,158 --> 00:42:41,438
Speaker 3: Thanks Glenn, I appreciate it, buddy.

852
00:42:41,518 --> 00:42:46,198
Speaker 1: Thanks that was Glenn Flaiesig, biomechanics research director at ASMI.

853
00:42:46,638 --> 00:42:48,758
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for Glenn for joining us. And when

854
00:42:48,798 --> 00:42:51,798
Speaker 1: we get back, we will wrap up this edition of

855
00:42:51,838 --> 00:43:05,118
Speaker 1: the Book of Joe, Welcome back to the Book of

856
00:43:05,198 --> 00:43:08,518
Speaker 1: Joe and Joe Madden. I always love talking to Glenn Fleisig.

857
00:43:09,038 --> 00:43:13,038
Speaker 1: He knows exactly what he's talking about. There's not, you know,

858
00:43:13,118 --> 00:43:16,918
Speaker 1: any voodoo science here. This guy's dedicated his life essentially

859
00:43:16,958 --> 00:43:21,358
Speaker 1: to dedicate to studying biomechanics and baseball players, and he

860
00:43:21,398 --> 00:43:24,518
Speaker 1: has seen the change. And I am not afraid to

861
00:43:24,598 --> 00:43:27,838
Speaker 1: call out major league teams, Joe, because I think what

862
00:43:27,878 --> 00:43:31,318
Speaker 1: they're doing is they're giving lip service to play our health.

863
00:43:31,758 --> 00:43:34,678
Speaker 1: And I say that because they talk now about, oh,

864
00:43:34,838 --> 00:43:37,758
Speaker 1: you know, we're as you said, we're not pitching guys

865
00:43:37,758 --> 00:43:40,238
Speaker 1: the third time around the lineup. We're always pitching them

866
00:43:40,278 --> 00:43:43,318
Speaker 1: with an extra day of rest. The pitch count has

867
00:43:43,438 --> 00:43:46,838
Speaker 1: declined severely in the last ten years. Pitchers are pitching

868
00:43:46,998 --> 00:43:50,998
Speaker 1: less than they ever have before. But that's not the problem.

869
00:43:51,118 --> 00:43:54,278
Speaker 1: The real problem is the velocity. So I don't care

870
00:43:54,358 --> 00:43:57,038
Speaker 1: if they're having these guys you know, out of the

871
00:43:57,038 --> 00:43:59,758
Speaker 1: game in the fifth inning with eighty five pitches pitching

872
00:43:59,758 --> 00:44:03,278
Speaker 1: on the fifth day. That does not address the issue,

873
00:44:03,358 --> 00:44:05,918
Speaker 1: which is guy g are throwing too hard for their

874
00:44:05,958 --> 00:44:10,278
Speaker 1: own good. And until Major League Baseball teams actually acknowledge

875
00:44:10,318 --> 00:44:14,398
Speaker 1: that and stop putting the carrot out there of ultra velocity.

876
00:44:14,718 --> 00:44:17,438
Speaker 1: We're going to see the best young pitchers in this

877
00:44:17,518 --> 00:44:20,798
Speaker 1: game continue to break down. We are not going to

878
00:44:20,878 --> 00:44:24,838
Speaker 1: see ten or fifteen year starting pitchers who become Hall

879
00:44:24,878 --> 00:44:29,318
Speaker 1: of Famers because their UCLs just cannot handle the torque

880
00:44:29,318 --> 00:44:30,038
Speaker 1: they are putting on.

881
00:44:30,598 --> 00:44:34,598
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, hundred percent agree as you're saying that.

882
00:44:34,638 --> 00:44:35,678
Speaker 3: I'm thinking.

883
00:44:35,878 --> 00:44:39,198
Speaker 2: And an example again is my example is James Shields,

884
00:44:39,198 --> 00:44:40,798
Speaker 2: who turned out to be really good major league pitcher,

885
00:44:40,838 --> 00:44:43,078
Speaker 2: Shieldsy when I had him, when he was really good.

886
00:44:43,518 --> 00:44:44,918
Speaker 2: If he came out in that first inn he's thrown

887
00:44:44,958 --> 00:44:47,878
Speaker 2: like ninety three, ninety four plus, I would get really

888
00:44:48,198 --> 00:44:52,118
Speaker 2: nervous concern because he's trying to overthrow the ball. It's

889
00:44:52,158 --> 00:44:54,238
Speaker 2: not going to have the same movement. He just wasn't

890
00:44:54,238 --> 00:44:56,918
Speaker 2: gonna have the same result. I didn't, thinking sure enough

891
00:44:56,918 --> 00:44:58,758
Speaker 2: he would not. The first inning was a big thing

892
00:44:58,758 --> 00:45:01,078
Speaker 2: for me with him. So we'd get him back down

893
00:45:01,158 --> 00:45:05,238
Speaker 2: ninety one, ninety two, sometimes ninety three, throwing that devastating

894
00:45:05,318 --> 00:45:07,478
Speaker 2: changeup pitching, and all of a sudden he's there in

895
00:45:07,478 --> 00:45:10,038
Speaker 2: the seventh or the eighth any often Jeff demon big

896
00:45:10,078 --> 00:45:13,038
Speaker 2: six ' nine right hander this guy. Had he stayed healthy,

897
00:45:13,798 --> 00:45:15,718
Speaker 2: you'd have heard from him for a long time also,

898
00:45:16,358 --> 00:45:18,158
Speaker 2: and he would throw eighty nine to.

899
00:45:18,278 --> 00:45:19,158
Speaker 3: Ninety one ninety two.

900
00:45:19,198 --> 00:45:21,318
Speaker 2: When he got higher than that, i'd get concerned all

901
00:45:21,318 --> 00:45:23,718
Speaker 2: of a sudden the ball get rattled around. Plus when

902
00:45:23,718 --> 00:45:25,238
Speaker 2: he did that, I know he had a better chance

903
00:45:25,238 --> 00:45:26,918
Speaker 2: of being there late in the game. He was one

904
00:45:26,958 --> 00:45:29,198
Speaker 2: of those guys who would go through like nine, ten,

905
00:45:29,318 --> 00:45:29,918
Speaker 2: twelve outs in.

906
00:45:29,918 --> 00:45:31,998
Speaker 3: A row with nobody reaching the first base.

907
00:45:32,038 --> 00:45:36,118
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think we're only it's only being emphasized

908
00:45:36,158 --> 00:45:38,838
Speaker 2: because according to the group in charge right now, it's

909
00:45:38,838 --> 00:45:40,438
Speaker 2: the only way to get people out, which I totally

910
00:45:40,478 --> 00:45:42,958
Speaker 2: disagree with. And like you're saying, if you want longevity

911
00:45:42,958 --> 00:45:45,958
Speaker 2: within your group, if you want to starting pitches that

912
00:45:45,998 --> 00:45:47,718
Speaker 2: you like and have them for a long period of time,

913
00:45:47,998 --> 00:45:49,718
Speaker 2: they're gonna have to take a different approach. And it's

914
00:45:49,718 --> 00:45:51,358
Speaker 2: going to start in the minor leagues. And how do

915
00:45:51,398 --> 00:45:53,358
Speaker 2: you raise them in the minor leagues and what you

916
00:45:53,398 --> 00:45:55,358
Speaker 2: ask them to do there so by the time they

917
00:45:55,438 --> 00:45:57,678
Speaker 2: get to you in the major leagues they know how

918
00:45:57,678 --> 00:45:58,038
Speaker 2: to do this.

919
00:45:58,118 --> 00:46:00,238
Speaker 3: It matters. All this stuff matters.

920
00:45:59,958 --> 00:46:01,998
Speaker 2: If you want a base stealer and the big leagues.

921
00:46:02,038 --> 00:46:05,198
Speaker 2: Have them steal bases in the minor league. As an example,

922
00:46:05,358 --> 00:46:07,118
Speaker 2: if you want to got to play multiple positions in

923
00:46:07,158 --> 00:46:09,238
Speaker 2: the major leagues, try him out in the minor leagues.

924
00:46:09,238 --> 00:46:11,398
Speaker 2: Haven't played multiple positions there before he gets there.

925
00:46:11,398 --> 00:46:13,198
Speaker 3: We've only got to become a switch hitter. Of course,

926
00:46:13,238 --> 00:46:14,838
Speaker 3: you're going to do that in the minor league.

927
00:46:14,838 --> 00:46:18,238
Speaker 2: Whatever you want done, whatever you think is going to

928
00:46:18,678 --> 00:46:21,678
Speaker 2: permit your team to be successful on the major league level,

929
00:46:22,158 --> 00:46:24,358
Speaker 2: have him do it in the minor leagues. Person you

930
00:46:24,358 --> 00:46:27,158
Speaker 2: have a much better chance of that infiltrating your team

931
00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:28,878
Speaker 2: and your culture for a long period of time.

932
00:46:29,198 --> 00:46:30,918
Speaker 1: And you know what, I don't need to see any

933
00:46:30,958 --> 00:46:34,038
Speaker 1: more social media posts of these sixteen seventeen year old

934
00:46:34,158 --> 00:46:37,998
Speaker 1: kids crow hopping and throwing plyaballs one hundred and fifteen

935
00:46:38,038 --> 00:46:40,918
Speaker 1: miles an hour into a net and some facility. I

936
00:46:40,918 --> 00:46:43,638
Speaker 1: don't need to see that anymore. You know why, because

937
00:46:43,718 --> 00:46:47,798
Speaker 1: you're putting yourself directly in harm's way. There's no question

938
00:46:47,798 --> 00:46:49,918
Speaker 1: about it. If I were a team Joe, I've got

939
00:46:49,918 --> 00:46:52,878
Speaker 1: a kid out there on the market on draft day

940
00:46:53,398 --> 00:46:57,158
Speaker 1: who's a high school senior throwing the upper nineties, I

941
00:46:57,238 --> 00:47:00,998
Speaker 1: would not touch him. Based on the experience. Everything I've seen,

942
00:47:01,278 --> 00:47:03,878
Speaker 1: there is no way the high velocity throwers, it said

943
00:47:03,958 --> 00:47:07,478
Speaker 1: venteen and eighteen are going to have sustainable big league careers.

944
00:47:07,678 --> 00:47:09,958
Speaker 1: And if I do have a young pitcher like a

945
00:47:10,078 --> 00:47:13,638
Speaker 1: Paul Skeene's the prospect out of LSU with the Pittsburgh Pirates,

946
00:47:13,798 --> 00:47:15,798
Speaker 1: I'd get him to the big leagues right now. There's

947
00:47:15,838 --> 00:47:18,198
Speaker 1: no reason for him to be, you know, punching people

948
00:47:18,198 --> 00:47:20,598
Speaker 1: out in the minor leagues right now, because it's just

949
00:47:20,678 --> 00:47:22,958
Speaker 1: not sustainable to be throwing that hard. I want him

950
00:47:22,998 --> 00:47:26,158
Speaker 1: pitching in the big leagues. I know that sounds almost cruel,

951
00:47:26,478 --> 00:47:28,998
Speaker 1: but the clock does tick on these young pitchers and

952
00:47:28,998 --> 00:47:31,198
Speaker 1: when they're throwing in the upper nineties.

953
00:47:32,078 --> 00:47:34,238
Speaker 2: Agreed again, I mean that was actually that was actually

954
00:47:34,238 --> 00:47:36,598
Speaker 2: a stuff that we had on Percy. When Percy was

955
00:47:36,638 --> 00:47:38,838
Speaker 2: coming up. It was Doc Yocum at that time said hey,

956
00:47:38,878 --> 00:47:40,918
Speaker 2: take him up there, pitch him. He's not going to

957
00:47:40,998 --> 00:47:43,558
Speaker 2: last very long. He said the same thing about Roberto Hernandez.

958
00:47:43,598 --> 00:47:46,118
Speaker 2: Roberto had a bad elbow too, but eventually both of

959
00:47:46,158 --> 00:47:48,398
Speaker 2: these guys had long and really good careers.

960
00:47:48,838 --> 00:47:52,118
Speaker 3: I can't tell exactly why. I do believe being watched

961
00:47:52,158 --> 00:47:53,558
Speaker 3: over by Marcel Et cetera.

962
00:47:53,918 --> 00:47:56,318
Speaker 2: And some really, I really believe that, I do believe

963
00:47:56,318 --> 00:47:59,118
Speaker 2: that these guys can pick up flows quicker than anything.

964
00:47:59,358 --> 00:48:01,278
Speaker 2: They know when to throttle back, they know when they

965
00:48:02,118 --> 00:48:04,038
Speaker 2: may advise to maybe.

966
00:48:03,758 --> 00:48:05,078
Speaker 3: A little bit. But there's this.

967
00:48:05,678 --> 00:48:08,598
Speaker 2: It's a good sports car with a six speed, right,

968
00:48:08,638 --> 00:48:10,558
Speaker 2: you know when to shift down, shift, you know in

969
00:48:10,798 --> 00:48:12,918
Speaker 2: the shift into the higher gear. You have to know

970
00:48:12,958 --> 00:48:15,078
Speaker 2: how to do again, pitch within a range. You have

971
00:48:15,118 --> 00:48:17,198
Speaker 2: to be able to know how to do that. And again,

972
00:48:17,198 --> 00:48:20,038
Speaker 2: you're right, that's not being that's not being talked spoken

973
00:48:20,078 --> 00:48:23,518
Speaker 2: about enough or at all, And that what's the answer.

974
00:48:23,638 --> 00:48:26,838
Speaker 2: That's the answer for me to get more experienced pitching coaches.

975
00:48:26,838 --> 00:48:28,398
Speaker 2: And I'm not slamming the guys that are out there,

976
00:48:28,478 --> 00:48:30,918
Speaker 2: it's not even a little bit. But for the most part,

977
00:48:30,958 --> 00:48:32,998
Speaker 2: what they know is what they've been told to know

978
00:48:33,438 --> 00:48:36,118
Speaker 2: and haven't had the experience to go through these things

979
00:48:36,158 --> 00:48:38,958
Speaker 2: for several years, many years, having run into a variety

980
00:48:38,998 --> 00:48:42,078
Speaker 2: of different pitches, variety of different coaches, mentors that will

981
00:48:42,078 --> 00:48:44,758
Speaker 2: give them different thoughts, information, wisdom, whatever you want to

982
00:48:44,798 --> 00:48:47,918
Speaker 2: call it, and in order or to enable them to

983
00:48:47,998 --> 00:48:50,318
Speaker 2: utilize it in a moment with a certain picture, whether

984
00:48:50,358 --> 00:48:52,118
Speaker 2: it's in a workout in spring training, or in a

985
00:48:52,158 --> 00:48:54,718
Speaker 2: game situation and the seventh inning, and the major league

986
00:48:54,758 --> 00:48:55,718
Speaker 2: level when it gets hot.

987
00:48:56,038 --> 00:48:58,878
Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in that. I'll never change my

988
00:48:58,918 --> 00:49:00,118
Speaker 3: stance on that one. Yeah.

989
00:49:00,398 --> 00:49:02,598
Speaker 1: The bottom line here, Joe, is the evidence is right

990
00:49:02,598 --> 00:49:06,838
Speaker 1: in front of us. Velocity is increasing risk. There's no

991
00:49:06,958 --> 00:49:09,238
Speaker 1: question about it. It's like, you know, to use your

992
00:49:09,238 --> 00:49:13,118
Speaker 1: car engine analogy. The engine's just too big for the chassis.

993
00:49:13,158 --> 00:49:16,158
Speaker 1: It's just too big. It's going to break down. Back

994
00:49:16,198 --> 00:49:18,318
Speaker 1: in the day, I'm only going back ten or fifteen

995
00:49:18,398 --> 00:49:21,598
Speaker 1: years ago, the two biggest red flags for pitcher injuries

996
00:49:21,718 --> 00:49:25,878
Speaker 1: were poor mechanics and overuse. Well, poor mechanics have been

997
00:49:25,878 --> 00:49:28,518
Speaker 1: mitigated to a greater degree because we've done so well

998
00:49:28,558 --> 00:49:32,118
Speaker 1: in these pitching labs and hooking people up to you know,

999
00:49:32,198 --> 00:49:35,518
Speaker 1: three D video systems. You can find flaws and deliveries

1000
00:49:35,518 --> 00:49:38,398
Speaker 1: and you can't fix them. As far as overuse goes,

1001
00:49:38,438 --> 00:49:40,838
Speaker 1: it never happens anymore. There's not a single picture that

1002
00:49:40,878 --> 00:49:43,438
Speaker 1: gets overused these days, not my book. No one's throwing

1003
00:49:43,478 --> 00:49:45,718
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty pitches anymore. No one's pitching three

1004
00:49:45,718 --> 00:49:48,478
Speaker 1: times around a lineup. No one starting pitcher is losing

1005
00:49:48,518 --> 00:49:50,078
Speaker 1: a game in the seventh or eighth inning. It just

1006
00:49:50,118 --> 00:49:54,518
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. So what has happened now is that velocity

1007
00:49:54,558 --> 00:49:58,278
Speaker 1: has become the single biggest risk for a starting pitcher.

1008
00:49:58,558 --> 00:50:03,478
Speaker 1: It has eclipsed both the overuse and poor mechanics as

1009
00:50:03,518 --> 00:50:05,598
Speaker 1: the biggest red flag to an injury. So if you've

1010
00:50:05,598 --> 00:50:08,518
Speaker 1: got a pitcher throwing up her nineties, he's literally a

1011
00:50:08,518 --> 00:50:11,438
Speaker 1: breakdown waiting to happen. How does that change? I don't know, Joe.

1012
00:50:11,838 --> 00:50:15,118
Speaker 1: It's a big philosophical change. Because the science isn't changing.

1013
00:50:15,238 --> 00:50:18,158
Speaker 1: We are developing throwers like we never have before, and

1014
00:50:18,158 --> 00:50:20,358
Speaker 1: that's going to continue to happen. So the only thing

1015
00:50:20,398 --> 00:50:22,838
Speaker 1: that can change is behavioral. It has to be some

1016
00:50:22,958 --> 00:50:26,558
Speaker 1: human element where teams and coaches and the industry decides,

1017
00:50:26,598 --> 00:50:29,158
Speaker 1: you know what, you don't need to succeed at ninety nine.

1018
00:50:29,238 --> 00:50:31,918
Speaker 1: You can pitch at ninety five and still get people out.

1019
00:50:32,398 --> 00:50:34,878
Speaker 1: That's a hard change to happen. It's going to be

1020
00:50:34,918 --> 00:50:37,198
Speaker 1: a slow turn that's turning around an ocean liner. I

1021
00:50:37,238 --> 00:50:39,118
Speaker 1: don't know how it happens, but we do need to

1022
00:50:39,118 --> 00:50:39,518
Speaker 1: get there.

1023
00:50:39,838 --> 00:50:41,998
Speaker 3: That's going to be the outlier or outliers.

1024
00:50:42,078 --> 00:50:44,638
Speaker 2: I mean, the way that this whole thing works and

1025
00:50:44,718 --> 00:50:46,598
Speaker 2: everything that we do. Everybody wants to be the same.

1026
00:50:46,638 --> 00:50:50,078
Speaker 2: Everybody wants to copycat whoever they perceive to be successful.

1027
00:50:50,478 --> 00:50:53,038
Speaker 2: And that's what's going on now. It's going to continue

1028
00:50:53,038 --> 00:50:56,078
Speaker 2: to go on until somebody or a group of somebody's

1029
00:50:56,478 --> 00:51:00,038
Speaker 2: gets not even gets the other separately decides listen, Okay,

1030
00:51:00,038 --> 00:51:01,638
Speaker 2: that's all good, well and good, but we're going to

1031
00:51:01,678 --> 00:51:04,518
Speaker 2: do it this way, our way. We're going to incorporate that.

1032
00:51:04,638 --> 00:51:07,958
Speaker 2: Plus we're going to incorporate this our methods in order

1033
00:51:08,038 --> 00:51:10,398
Speaker 2: to build what we perceive or how to how we

1034
00:51:10,438 --> 00:51:12,638
Speaker 2: perceive to be able to build the kind of pitching,

1035
00:51:12,918 --> 00:51:16,358
Speaker 2: sustainable pitching that's not going to get injured so readily

1036
00:51:16,718 --> 00:51:19,198
Speaker 2: lasted period of time, have them through all their free

1037
00:51:19,238 --> 00:51:23,758
Speaker 2: agency productively within our major league team, getting us wins,

1038
00:51:23,798 --> 00:51:26,358
Speaker 2: getting us saves, but they're going to be healthy the

1039
00:51:26,838 --> 00:51:29,758
Speaker 2: most of the time because all this other scientific evidence

1040
00:51:29,758 --> 00:51:33,078
Speaker 2: out there, and I keep hearing about it continues to

1041
00:51:33,078 --> 00:51:35,798
Speaker 2: break down. So I think the answer lies, like typically

1042
00:51:35,878 --> 00:51:38,798
Speaker 2: always somewhere in between, more of a balance needs to

1043
00:51:38,838 --> 00:51:41,398
Speaker 2: be achieved, But it's going to be the group that's

1044
00:51:41,478 --> 00:51:44,038
Speaker 2: able and willing to be the outlier to go away

1045
00:51:44,038 --> 00:51:47,038
Speaker 2: from the maddening crowd and do things more or less

1046
00:51:47,278 --> 00:51:48,158
Speaker 2: the way they see fit.

1047
00:51:48,798 --> 00:51:51,638
Speaker 1: One last thing, Joe, for me. For that to happen,

1048
00:51:51,918 --> 00:51:54,198
Speaker 1: this has to be a joint effort. This has to

1049
00:51:54,198 --> 00:51:57,318
Speaker 1: be done collectively with the players and MLB. And that

1050
00:51:57,438 --> 00:52:00,758
Speaker 1: was a terrible sign over the weekend when Tony Clark

1051
00:52:00,758 --> 00:52:03,358
Speaker 1: in the Union put out their statement. MLB came back

1052
00:52:03,398 --> 00:52:05,998
Speaker 1: with their state this is not the time to be

1053
00:52:06,118 --> 00:52:09,518
Speaker 1: really relitigating the CBA. This is the time for both

1054
00:52:09,558 --> 00:52:11,878
Speaker 1: sides to get together and talk about the most important

1055
00:52:11,878 --> 00:52:16,158
Speaker 1: issue in baseball, and that's player health. There's nothing more important.

1056
00:52:16,278 --> 00:52:17,718
Speaker 1: And you better do it collectively.

1057
00:52:18,038 --> 00:52:20,358
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean collectively when it comes to medicine. But

1058
00:52:20,798 --> 00:52:22,718
Speaker 2: the idea or the thought that all of a sudden,

1059
00:52:22,998 --> 00:52:25,358
Speaker 2: the clock has something to do with injuries, to me,

1060
00:52:25,438 --> 00:52:26,998
Speaker 2: I just I didn't even I didn't even know that.

1061
00:52:27,038 --> 00:52:29,358
Speaker 2: To you said that, I missed that. I heard something

1062
00:52:29,398 --> 00:52:31,118
Speaker 2: had been had been said, but I'd missed.

1063
00:52:30,838 --> 00:52:33,718
Speaker 3: That part of it. I don't agree with that at all.

1064
00:52:34,358 --> 00:52:38,358
Speaker 2: When I hear that, I'm I'm hearing that several veteran pictures. Primarily,

1065
00:52:38,398 --> 00:52:40,158
Speaker 2: it's not the younger guys are not going to say

1066
00:52:40,198 --> 00:52:42,758
Speaker 2: any of that. It's a primarily a veteran dialogue that's

1067
00:52:42,758 --> 00:52:44,358
Speaker 2: going to get to a narrative that's going to get together,

1068
00:52:44,438 --> 00:52:46,438
Speaker 2: get back to Tony, and then it's going to be

1069
00:52:46,558 --> 00:52:48,558
Speaker 2: presented in that manner. So that's that's what I think

1070
00:52:48,558 --> 00:52:51,758
Speaker 2: happened for me. It's be more or less the more

1071
00:52:51,838 --> 00:52:54,518
Speaker 2: veteran guys that got injured and it's going to come back.

1072
00:52:54,598 --> 00:52:55,518
Speaker 3: Why did I get injured?

1073
00:52:55,518 --> 00:52:58,238
Speaker 2: You always have to always have to find a reason why.

1074
00:52:58,278 --> 00:53:00,198
Speaker 2: It just can't be because I broke down, because I

1075
00:53:00,238 --> 00:53:01,158
Speaker 2: threw one hundred miles an hour.

1076
00:53:01,158 --> 00:53:02,118
Speaker 3: It's got to be a reason.

1077
00:53:02,238 --> 00:53:05,638
Speaker 2: Thus, I think it's an easy target to say that

1078
00:53:05,638 --> 00:53:06,878
Speaker 2: the pitch clock had something to.

1079
00:53:06,798 --> 00:53:07,238
Speaker 3: Do with it.

1080
00:53:07,398 --> 00:53:09,998
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just be prepared. There will be more injuries.

1081
00:53:10,038 --> 00:53:12,518
Speaker 1: We know that. I will say this time of year

1082
00:53:12,638 --> 00:53:15,758
Speaker 1: is especially a dangerous time for pictures as they ramp

1083
00:53:15,838 --> 00:53:18,998
Speaker 1: up for a new season. Sometimes they're recovering from some

1084
00:53:19,278 --> 00:53:22,878
Speaker 1: slight ailment in the off season. Getting back to game

1085
00:53:22,958 --> 00:53:28,158
Speaker 1: speed will expose anything that's wrong with the elbow. So

1086
00:53:28,758 --> 00:53:31,958
Speaker 1: it's not unusual to see a lot of these injuries

1087
00:53:31,998 --> 00:53:34,238
Speaker 1: early in the season. The next time you start seeing

1088
00:53:34,318 --> 00:53:36,798
Speaker 1: a plethora of these injuries is probably around August and

1089
00:53:36,838 --> 00:53:40,718
Speaker 1: September when it starts, guys start to get fatigued. But hopefully,

1090
00:53:41,038 --> 00:53:43,398
Speaker 1: you know, the pace of these injuries just really slows

1091
00:53:43,438 --> 00:53:45,678
Speaker 1: down because it is it is just not good for

1092
00:53:45,718 --> 00:53:47,678
Speaker 1: the game. It's really dispiriting to see some of the

1093
00:53:47,678 --> 00:53:50,358
Speaker 1: best pictures go down, and hopefully there is there's a

1094
00:53:50,398 --> 00:53:54,318
Speaker 1: solution at some point in the meantime. Mister Madden, I

1095
00:53:54,318 --> 00:53:55,798
Speaker 1: don't know how you're going to put a cap on

1096
00:53:55,838 --> 00:53:59,598
Speaker 1: this one. You always wind up with a way to

1097
00:53:58,998 --> 00:54:02,438
Speaker 1: to to end our podcast with just the right tone.

1098
00:54:02,478 --> 00:54:05,358
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure you got this time, but I

1099
00:54:05,478 --> 00:54:07,198
Speaker 1: count on you to come through. Once again.

1100
00:54:07,638 --> 00:54:09,358
Speaker 3: I fight for the individual all the time.

1101
00:54:09,558 --> 00:54:12,238
Speaker 2: I do, and I think, again, this is a we

1102
00:54:12,278 --> 00:54:15,918
Speaker 2: always talk about these socialized methods of finding a solution

1103
00:54:15,958 --> 00:54:18,238
Speaker 2: where everybody's got to get together. Back in the day,

1104
00:54:18,238 --> 00:54:20,998
Speaker 2: it was pretty much organizationally. You would get together and

1105
00:54:20,998 --> 00:54:22,878
Speaker 2: you would want to be the first ones to figure

1106
00:54:22,918 --> 00:54:26,838
Speaker 2: out how to keep our pictures healthy. Where again, it's

1107
00:54:26,838 --> 00:54:29,998
Speaker 2: going to be more of a collective route. But that's

1108
00:54:30,078 --> 00:54:32,918
Speaker 2: just where we're at. So I was thinking about this

1109
00:54:33,598 --> 00:54:35,918
Speaker 2: before because I thought you might be going in this direction.

1110
00:54:36,118 --> 00:54:39,278
Speaker 2: The word, the term progressive progressive automatically. I think the

1111
00:54:39,278 --> 00:54:42,438
Speaker 2: way it's used today, people assume that it's something with

1112
00:54:42,518 --> 00:54:45,358
Speaker 2: a positive result to it, a positive ending to it,

1113
00:54:45,918 --> 00:54:47,918
Speaker 2: but the result doesn't automatically have.

1114
00:54:47,878 --> 00:54:49,438
Speaker 3: To be good or productive.

1115
00:54:50,158 --> 00:54:52,918
Speaker 2: Things may progress down a negative path. I think today

1116
00:54:53,158 --> 00:54:57,078
Speaker 2: the world has uncovered or emphasized a new meaning to

1117
00:54:57,158 --> 00:55:01,118
Speaker 2: the term progressive, and that being negative momentum. Sometimes you

1118
00:55:01,158 --> 00:55:04,398
Speaker 2: garner negative momentum and not just positive moment and I

1119
00:55:04,398 --> 00:55:08,638
Speaker 2: think progressive sometimes is always attached or those that label

1120
00:55:08,678 --> 00:55:12,598
Speaker 2: themselves are progressive. It's automatically assume that they're there for everybody,

1121
00:55:12,718 --> 00:55:14,198
Speaker 2: the common good for everybody else where.

1122
00:55:14,638 --> 00:55:15,398
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's not.

1123
00:55:15,558 --> 00:55:18,438
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're taking this down the negative path and are

1124
00:55:18,478 --> 00:55:21,878
Speaker 2: creating negative momentum, and that has to be stopped. Also,

1125
00:55:22,518 --> 00:55:25,398
Speaker 2: so there's that group who always believe that they're right,

1126
00:55:25,478 --> 00:55:30,078
Speaker 2: the social engineers, the administrative state that isn't always right,

1127
00:55:30,438 --> 00:55:32,678
Speaker 2: quite frankly, and that's where I have a lot of

1128
00:55:32,718 --> 00:55:35,958
Speaker 2: issues or problems sometimes because I don't believe everything I

1129
00:55:35,998 --> 00:55:38,398
Speaker 2: hear and don't believe everything I read. I think things

1130
00:55:38,438 --> 00:55:40,438
Speaker 2: are spun a lot of times. And that's my Jack

1131
00:55:40,518 --> 00:55:45,598
Speaker 2: Ryan approach to answering questions The protagonists from the Tom

1132
00:55:45,598 --> 00:55:49,238
Speaker 2: Clancy novels where no, mister President, he wasn't just a

1133
00:55:49,278 --> 00:55:51,398
Speaker 2: friend of yours, he was your best friend. Just to

1134
00:55:51,478 --> 00:55:53,798
Speaker 2: run towards the issue and not tap dance around it.

1135
00:55:54,158 --> 00:55:58,118
Speaker 2: So as they're trying to conclude all this regarding the

1136
00:55:58,198 --> 00:56:02,638
Speaker 2: different thoughts or ideas methods being incorporated to help permit

1137
00:56:02,718 --> 00:56:04,958
Speaker 2: our pictures to stay on the field, well please be

1138
00:56:04,998 --> 00:56:07,758
Speaker 2: open about it. Just say it straight up. Don't tap

1139
00:56:07,838 --> 00:56:09,758
Speaker 2: dance around it. Don't try to paint things, don't try

1140
00:56:09,758 --> 00:56:12,078
Speaker 2: to spend things, don't try to protect anybody. Just say

1141
00:56:12,078 --> 00:56:13,998
Speaker 2: what you're doing. Just tell us what we're doing and

1142
00:56:13,998 --> 00:56:16,238
Speaker 2: how we're doing it, and then I think we all

1143
00:56:16,238 --> 00:56:18,478
Speaker 2: can get on board and help be part of the solution.

1144
00:56:19,078 --> 00:56:21,838
Speaker 2: But when you're just when there's some negative momentum that

1145
00:56:21,878 --> 00:56:24,438
Speaker 2: you just don't because you've created it, you can't admit

1146
00:56:24,478 --> 00:56:26,438
Speaker 2: to and you can't get away from it, that's not

1147
00:56:26,518 --> 00:56:30,678
Speaker 2: so good. So progressive is a nice word, but understand

1148
00:56:30,718 --> 00:56:33,518
Speaker 2: it's not always about a positive change. Sometimes it can't

1149
00:56:33,558 --> 00:56:37,198
Speaker 2: create negative momentum. That's my quote. I guess I didn't

1150
00:56:37,238 --> 00:56:39,318
Speaker 2: really get anybody specifically today.

1151
00:56:39,518 --> 00:56:41,518
Speaker 1: No, I like that, and I can always count on

1152
00:56:41,558 --> 00:56:44,878
Speaker 1: you to give a perspective that is rich in the humanities,

1153
00:56:45,598 --> 00:56:47,798
Speaker 1: very well balanced. Then you just did it again, and

1154
00:56:47,878 --> 00:56:49,718
Speaker 1: I think that's what we're talking about here, Joe, is

1155
00:56:49,758 --> 00:56:53,278
Speaker 1: that the science of pitching has evolved and has to

1156
00:56:53,758 --> 00:56:56,758
Speaker 1: use your word pressed very well, but the art of

1157
00:56:56,758 --> 00:56:59,238
Speaker 1: pitching is not and we need a better balance. One

1158
00:56:59,278 --> 00:57:01,678
Speaker 1: hundred percent brother, enjoying it, Joe. We'll see you next time.

1159
00:57:01,758 --> 00:57:03,998
Speaker 2: Thanks Tom, You be well.

1160
00:57:13,078 --> 00:57:16,318
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1161
00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:21,518
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1162
00:57:21,638 --> 00:57:23,398
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.