1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. What was happening 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: with your mother that she just sort of buried this herself. 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: I can't speak for her, but she did say I 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: just never thought about it again. Maybe she was covering 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: for herself too. Maybe if your kids had a babysitter 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: who was a serial killer, you might think differently about it, right, 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: I certainly would. Oh my god, I'd be terrified. 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many, many great true crime stories, 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: the stories. Oh boy, is this a heroing story. Liza 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: Rodman and her friend Jennifer Jordan co wrote a book 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: about Liza's childhood babysitter in Cape Cod in the nineteen sixties. 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: His name was Tony Costa, and he was a caring, 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: exciting and interesting caregiver. He was also a serial killer 26 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: who took Lisa to the woods where he buried his victims. 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: The book is called The Babysitter, My Summers with a 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: serial Killer. Why don't Liza we talk about where we 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: are in time? First of all, this is nineteen sixties 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: Cape Cod, Is that right? 31 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: That's right. It's at the very tip of Cape Cod 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: in Provence, Massachusetts. And my mother owned a little strip 33 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: motel along the road along Route six A, and her 34 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: best friend and husband owned the motel across the street, 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: which was one of the biggest motels that had ever 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: been built on the Cape at the time. 37 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: So she bought a hotel for lots of money? Or 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: was she a single mom? Or how did she manage that? 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, it's one of the points we like to 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: make is that women couldn't get a mortgage on their 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: own in nineteen sixty eight. 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: Wow, what they had to have a co signer or something. 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: They had either had their spouse or a co signer. 44 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: And in the case of my mother, she was having 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: such a good time down there, she wanted a motel 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: across the street, so she got my grandfather to go 47 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: in with her and co sign. 48 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: Well, he must have been pretty confident in her business 49 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: abilities then. 50 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: It was such a crazy time. He was confident in 51 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: his own business abilities. My grandfather was kind of a grifter, 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: but he was also a jack of all trades, so 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: he taught himself how to do everything, including book keeping 54 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: and accounting, through encyclopedias and books. Never went to school, 55 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: never graduated the eighth grade, so he was confident in 56 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: his own I'm not sure how confident he would have 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: been in her shoes. Pretty good like that though, and 58 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: in the end she was great. 59 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So what is home life like for you? You have siblings. 60 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: I have one sister who's younger, and remember this is 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 2: just summers now. This book takes place during the summers 62 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: of my childhood there in Provincetown. So home life is 63 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: my mother, my sister, and I at any given time. 64 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: My father is pretty much absent, So it was basically 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: my mother, sister, and I and my grandparents lived. 66 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: Next door, not at the hotel. 67 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: No, this was during the year where we went to 68 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: school was in a place called Westbridgewater, Massachusetts, and that's 69 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: where we went to school. That's where my grandparents lived 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: next door. But at the motel, it was my mother, 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: my sister, and I and anybody she hired. And then 72 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: across the street was her best friend and anybody she hired. 73 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: That's how that worked. 74 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: This sounds like a twenty four hour, seven day a 75 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: week business. Was your mom just working her tail off 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: the entire time. She must have been. 77 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: Yes, working during the day. She was a school teacher 78 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: during the year she came down. She was originally the 79 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: head of housekeeping for my aunt's motel. And that's where 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: all this started. And they worked really hard during the day, 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: and they partied really hard at night. 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: Define partied in your mom's world in nineteen sixties Provincetown. 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 2: Well, nineteen sixties Provincetown looks a lot like twenty and 84 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: twenty two Provincetown. Oh, Okay, it's right at the tip 85 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: of Cape Cod and it's absolutely beautiful, But it's one 86 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: big party, and the gay community was just beginning to 87 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: sort of move down there from New York. It was 88 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: always an artist community. You had the townies, the people 89 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: who lived and grew up there for generations, and you 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: had the summer people, and there was always this tension 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: between them, but that's how I remember it as one 92 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: big party. They were always going out, they were always 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: going into the bars. There was a lot of entertainment 94 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: in the summertime. 95 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: Was your mom a young mom? 96 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 2: She was. She was twenty two when I was born, 97 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: so if I was ten, she was thirty two at 98 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: the time. 99 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: And single and single because she and your father had divorced. 100 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: What was life like for you and your sister when 101 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: your mom was out. 102 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: We had a lot of babysitters, which is how this 103 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: book came about. No matter where we were, we had 104 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: my grandparents a little, but mostly my mother would hire 105 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: her students to come, or the neighbors to come, or 106 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: sometimes we were home alone, or in the case of 107 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: the summers, my mother's best friend, who owned the Royal 108 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: Coachman across the street, had two children same ages as 109 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: my sister and I, so the four of us had 110 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: a babysitter together. 111 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: You were ten at the time. 112 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: I was seven, eight, nine and ten. Wow. 113 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: So over the summers, you would have different people babysit 114 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: for you. 115 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: They called my mother the babysitter finder. 116 00:05:58,839 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: Oh. 117 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: Her friends used to joke about it. So if they 118 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 2: were breathing, they were good. She used to walk up 119 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: to people on the street, and it was a joke 120 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 2: amongst the friends. The guy who my mother hired to 121 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 2: be the general manager at her motel was one of 122 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: our babysitters. The guy next door was one of our babysitters. 123 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: I don't think she thought about whether it was a 124 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: guy or a woman. I really don't. I don't think 125 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: she thought much about it. 126 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: You never felt uneasy with any of these people that 127 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: your mother had tracked down. 128 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: Oh no, No, I felt very uneasy with quite a 129 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: few of them. And the irony of the story for me, 130 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: one of the many, is that I had way worse 131 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: babysitters than Tony Costa. So I had really, like outwardly 132 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: drug addult babysitters who would cut our nails down till 133 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: they bled, or I think the car accidents in the book, 134 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: I mean, we had some bad babysitters. 135 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: And Jennifer, you're a journalist. You helped her write the book? 136 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: How did you get involved? You were friends right at 137 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: one stage? 138 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: I was between projects, and I I had always believed 139 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 3: that this was just one hell of a story with 140 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 3: one hell of an elevator pitch hello. I was babysat 141 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: by a serial killer, and I said to her, you know, 142 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: let me see if I can help you do this, 143 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: get this book out of your head and onto the page. 144 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: The collaboration was for me magical because I came to 145 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: the process after she had done ten to fifteen years. 146 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: Worth of research. 147 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: So I, as a forensic journalist, was presented with boxes 148 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: and thousands of pages of information, and so yes, she 149 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: was there for me to say, now, tell me again 150 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: what happened on that time, and tell me again how 151 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: your mother reacted to that, and tell me again how 152 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 3: you and your sister dealt with that. But so much 153 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: of the lion's share of real digging research she'd already done. 154 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: So for me, I came into this process just rubbing 155 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: my hands together. And also because it enabled me to 156 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: spend two and a half three years with one of 157 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: my dear friends on earth. 158 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: So it's really been a gift in so many ways. 159 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: That's incredible, And Liza, you sound like my kind of 160 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: co writer. You come to the table with everything, You've 161 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: already thought it all out, you have boxes and documents. 162 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: So let's go back to my question, which is what 163 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: is your feeling about your mom and the decisions that 164 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: she made. 165 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: It's such a big question, and I'm still dealing with 166 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: the fallout. I deal with it every day, almost every day. 167 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: I don't know what she was thinking, except to say 168 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: that she was thinking about her own next good time 169 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: and they were having it, and probably she was someone 170 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: who shouldn't have had kids. She was at the point 171 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: that we enter this story, she's pretty pissed off that 172 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: Church has a band in her. My father is a disappointment. 173 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: Her father is an open, raging alcoholic. So that's the 174 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: point at which we enter the story. For her, it's 175 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: always important for me to contextualize her, not to defend her, 176 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 2: but to say she really had a lot going on. 177 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: When you're a single woman in nineteen sixty five with 178 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: two kids, people don't say nice things, and so this 179 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: was the one friend that really didn't abandon her. They 180 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: took care of her in a way I know in 181 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: later years they wished they'd taken care of her in 182 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: a different way. But that said, you know, she was 183 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: pissed off. That's what she was thinking. I'm pissed off, 184 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: and I'm going to go and have a good time 185 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 2: and get it out of me. The fact that we 186 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: even had a babysitter was probably more than I would 187 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: have expected from her. 188 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about the litany of sounds like just 189 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: horrible babysitters that you've had. And then you meet a 190 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: man named Tony. Is this when you're seven? Is this 191 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: the first summer that you and your sister spin with him? 192 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Seven, eight, nineteen sixty six, Okay, so I would 193 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: have been seven. His mother is hired by my mother 194 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 2: to be a housekeeper at the Royal Coachman, And that 195 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: was pretty characteristic of those places. They'd open up for 196 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: the summer, hire the locals. Anybody who wanted a job 197 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: could have one. They even had a van that used 198 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: to drive into town every day, pick everybody up who 199 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 2: was coming to work at the motel and bring them 200 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: back because a lot of the people in town didn't 201 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,479 Speaker 2: have cars. And so his mother was hired at the motel, 202 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 2: and she was a sweet potato. She was loving and warm, 203 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: and at least to me, the rest of my family 204 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: siblings slash cousins remember her that way too, And so 205 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: that's how I met him through her. 206 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: What is Tony Costa like? 207 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 2: He was born in nineteen forty four, so he would 208 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: have been twenty four in nineteen sixty six, and he 209 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: was already in you know, he'd married a thirteen year 210 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: old girl fourteen, met her when he was when she 211 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: was thirteen. Her mother, actually she was also from a 212 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: single parent family, wouldn't let them date. So they decided 213 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: they were going to show her and they went out 214 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: and got pregnant, and then they had to get married. 215 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 2: So let's start there. You're starting in that mindset of 216 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: what is going on here. So by that time they 217 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: had three children by the time I met him, and 218 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: you know, by all accounts, he was a decent father. 219 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: He was handsome as all get out, is a little 220 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: bit of a sweet talker, and really fancied himself. This 221 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: is a place where when Jen and I were collaborating 222 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: was interesting because I have memories that are deer and 223 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: Jen and I have a book in which he's as 224 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: far from deer as he can get but I don't 225 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: have those memories. So trying to reconcile those two people 226 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: was an interesting task. And she would say to me, 227 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: I know, honey, but he's a serial killer. 228 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. 229 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: It provided an interesting tension in the book because we 230 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: really loved him. My aunt tells a story he would 231 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: come driving up the driveway in his truck and she 232 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: would holler out the back to the pool and say, 233 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: here comes Tony, and we'd come flying out in our 234 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 2: flip flops and our towels and jump in the truck 235 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 2: and off we'd go. Now, looking back on that, oh 236 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: my god. Yeah, but at that moment it seemed just 237 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: absolutely innocent. 238 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: So Tony is handsome, he's in his twenties. He's babysitting 239 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: you and your sister. Tell me your sister's name again. 240 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: Her name in the book is Luisa. 241 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: Okay, so you don't identify her, no, which is completely understandable. 242 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: So you and Louisa are staying where with Tony whenever 243 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: your mom needs him to watch. 244 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: You, mostly traveling in the car okay, okay, mostly traveling 245 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: in his truck. We've used to joke about the fact 246 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: that we hit every dump from Yanas to Provincetown at 247 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: one time or another. What we didn't know was that 248 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: he was stealing things and hiding them at one dump 249 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: or another. He was stealing drugs and burying them mount 250 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: in the Truro woods. So he had a whole network 251 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: of places that he went to do one thing or another. 252 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: There were stolen TVs in one spot and drugs in another. 253 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: We didn't know that, so we were all over the 254 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: place with him. 255 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: Let me turn to Jennifer about this, even though I 256 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: know you can answer this too, Liza, So why does 257 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: this guy who is doing all sorts of illegal things 258 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: that seemed to be probably profitable, why is he taking 259 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: two kids along. 260 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: Tony was a. 261 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: Pied piper, and he loved his entourage. 262 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: He loved the acolytes that would follow behind him like 263 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: a row of ducklings, and Liza and her sister were 264 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 3: just two of those ducklings. Yes, they were younger than most, 265 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: because most of his followers were teenagers. But he loved 266 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: being looked up to like any egomaniac, like any meglomaniac. 267 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 3: And so what better than a seven and eight year 268 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 3: old child girl looking up saying yes, Tony, you know 269 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: I love spearmint gum, and as Eliza said earlier, it's 270 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 3: not as if Betty her mother interviewed these people. It was, Hey, 271 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: you're breathing, You're going to get these kids out of 272 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: my hair. Take them, Take them. So nobody was really 273 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 3: noticing that Tony was high on drugs or stealing things 274 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: and hiding them in dumb or breaking into doctors' offices 275 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 3: and leaving with pillowcases full of drugs. It was just 276 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 3: part of the scene of sex, drugs and rock and 277 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 3: roll in the late sixties. I mean, everybody was wasted, 278 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 3: everybody was a little off. You know. Tony was a father, 279 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: Tony was a husband. Tony worked, and he presented himself 280 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: very nicely. He was always well groomed, he was always clean. 281 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: So there wasn't any talk about him being dangerous. Maybe 282 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 3: a little weird, a little off, but not dangerous. 283 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: Okay. 284 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: It's really important to point out here that this was 285 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: not a traditional Hi, I'm going to be out at 286 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: six point thirty tonight and I thought maybe you could 287 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: come over and watch the kids. It wasn't that way 288 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: at all. It was the antithesis of that. It was 289 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: Tony pulls up in his truck, and my aunt's out 290 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: there saying, you don't mind taking them, do you. He 291 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: had gone to his mother and said, see if you 292 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: can get me a job here. Yeah, And they needed 293 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: a handyman. God knows, they needed someone to do all 294 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: those little jobs and take things to the dump. And 295 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: it wasn't a full time gig. It was no skin 296 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: off his nose to have a few kids in the 297 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: car that looked up to him. As Jen said, that's 298 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: a very important point. And when you think about what 299 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: the book is about overarching and the themes that are 300 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: in this book, mental illness and unnoticed and undiagnosed mental 301 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: illness is a big part of this book. And he, 302 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, that ego was truly out of control. 303 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: So to have kids who are particularly me looking up 304 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: to him and saying, gee, you know, will you could 305 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: teach me to smoke? Yeah, you teach me to blow 306 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: smoke rings. You know, he was like my cousin. He 307 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: felt like my cousin. 308 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: So how many summers are we talking about when Tony 309 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: is in your life, in your sister's life. 310 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: Sixty six, sixty seven, and sixty eight. 311 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're eightish, nine ish and tennish during this time. 312 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: What about Luisa? 313 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: She's two years younger than I. Okay, it's a weird 314 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: town and we had so many strange people in our lives. 315 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: My sister Luisa from the book has a great line 316 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: where she says, you know, I was at a dinner 317 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: party the other night and I was sharing some of 318 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: my childhood experiences from Provincetown and other people don't think 319 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: it's as funny as we do, because that's how we 320 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: dealt with it, right, because it's all we knew. And 321 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: that's a really important part of this story was this 322 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: was as nice as it got for us, and that's 323 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: saying a lot. 324 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: So we've heard from eight and nine and ten year 325 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: old Liza about what Tony Costa was like, Oh, of 326 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: course we want to talk about Tony as a serial killer. 327 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: When as an adult do things start to click in 328 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: for you? How long ago or what age were you? 329 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: I was thirty five. I went back to school to 330 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: finish my bachelor's degree as my kids were going off 331 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: to high school and college, and I started having dreams. 332 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: I was journaling. I was in a distance learning program 333 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: and part of that was journaling, and so I started 334 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: having these nightmares, and as a result of the nightmares, 335 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 2: they were so violent and so scary and bizarre that 336 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: I started writing them down to see if I could 337 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: find a link between them. And the only real link 338 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: was that I was being hunted. I was always in 339 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: fear of my life, no matter where I was, no 340 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: matter who it was, and there was always this man 341 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 2: in the dream that I couldn't identify. In one my 342 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: husband tried to kill me, and then you know, I 343 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: went into another room and there's this man who I 344 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: can't see his face. So this went on for a while, 345 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: went on for six months, maybe even more, And then 346 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: I had the Tony Costa dream that I write about 347 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: in the prologue of the book, which was that I 348 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: was a little girl. I was about ten years old, 349 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 2: and I had my little spaghetti strap nightgown on and 350 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: I was walking through the hallways and he found me 351 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: and he backed me up against the wall and he 352 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: pointed the gun at my head and told me to 353 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: count to ten in Italian, and when I opened my eyes, 354 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: he was gone. And then the whole thing unfolded before 355 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: me in the dream, and you know, light started streaming 356 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: into windows. I mean, it was literally trying to tell 357 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: me something. Now, Jen and I have a difference of 358 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: opinion about what may or may not have caused those dreams. 359 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: After I said to my mother, why am I dreaming 360 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: about Tony Costa? And that's when she said to me, well, 361 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: I know he became a serial. 362 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: Killer, And you said, what the hell. 363 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: It was a really kind of a watershed moment for me, 364 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: because it's that moment where everything slows down, stuff starts 365 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: to line up, things start to make sense. We've all 366 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: had that moment at one time or another. And I thought, oh, 367 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: there's something here. I'm not having those dreams about Tony 368 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: Costa and he became a serial killer. I never put together. 369 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: I never really thought about it again. Provincetown was over. 370 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: I moved on with my life. I knew I had 371 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 2: some funky memories, and I knew I had some sensory 372 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: memories that didn't make sense to me. I knew something 373 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: nefarious had happened in Provincetown, but I never made the connection, 374 00:18:48,160 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: not till that moment in my kitchen. Eliza alluded to 375 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 2: it earlier. 376 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 3: This is where she and I had a lot of 377 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 3: work that we had to do in writing the book. 378 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 3: Because I firmly believe, as a forensic journalist and as 379 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: her friend of all these years, that she in fact 380 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 3: did witness something in those woods that her brain is 381 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: protecting her to this day is protecting her from, and 382 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 3: that through her journaling and through her going back together BA, 383 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: and through her really figuring out her writing, which forces 384 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: you to dig deep and to start processing thoughts and memories, 385 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: and that that is why twenty years later she started 386 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: having these violent dreams about Tony Costa. I don't think 387 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: that if he had been the totally benign of vuncular 388 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 3: caretaker who bought her popsicles and took her for summertime 389 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 3: rides with her hair blowing in the wind in the truck, 390 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: that she would suddenly twenty twenty five years later have 391 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: a dream with him pointing a gun at her head 392 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 3: and having her wake up with the adrenaline coursing through 393 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: her body the way you do in those kinds of nightmares. 394 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 3: I believe, and you know, at some point, maybe we'll 395 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 3: have her go under some really good hypnosis that there 396 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 3: is something that she witnessed, and probably in the woods 397 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 3: with Tony Costa. 398 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: You felt threatened by him for some reason, right. Something happened, right, Liza. 399 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: I mean no, I'm not saying that you remember that, 400 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: but somewhere in your subconscious you knew something was wrong. 401 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: Maybe it was the drug deals. I mean, there's got 402 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: to be something. 403 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 2: Why would I go, Yeah, why would I take that 404 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: story and go and do fifteen years of research? What 405 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 2: was I looking for? 406 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? 407 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: I was looking for myself in there. I was trying 408 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: to find myself in those papers. It's the only way 409 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: I can describe it. And I don't disagree with Jen. 410 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: I just don't have that. I don't have access to that. 411 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: Although when I was first writing this book, the name 412 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: of it was the Memory Heist. So that's to tell 413 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: you something. 414 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about your mom, because I 415 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: adore my mother. She is a little bit of a 416 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: gossip I would have heard if I had been baby 417 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: sat by a serial killer. Probably as soon as she 418 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: thought it was appropriate to tell me what was happening 419 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: with your mother that she just sort of buried this herself. 420 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I asked her that. I asked her that because 421 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,239 Speaker 2: when I was writing, she contributed to the book. It 422 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: wasn't until later that she so some of those memories 423 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: there are with her help. I think she said, I 424 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: never thought about it. We left Provincetown in November or 425 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: October November nineteen sixty eight, and then he was arrested 426 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: in March. That was a long time. I can't speak 427 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: for her, but she did say I just never thought 428 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: about it again. Maybe she was covering for herself too. 429 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: Maybe if your kids had a babysitter who was a 430 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: serial killer, you might think differently about it. Right, I 431 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: certainly would, Oh my god, I'd be terrified. 432 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: But I will say, thank goodness you and your sister 433 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: weren't there when he got arrested. Because talk about traumatizing 434 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: events for a little kid to hear someone say, did 435 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: you hear that this happened? 436 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: So we knew something had gone down. We never put 437 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: a name or face to it, although we must have. 438 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 2: We must have. And my memory is so good on 439 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: so many things, and entering the music of that time 440 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: is it's very easy for me to conjure and remember this, 441 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: what exactly what the sand feels like? Or you know, 442 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: we used to climb under the building. I can remember 443 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: exactly what that was like. So my memory is so 444 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 2: good in so many places. But I don't have any 445 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 2: memory of that. 446 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: Well, let's just kind of go through his life. What 447 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: do we know about him? What are the series events 448 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: that turn him into a serial killer? 449 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 3: Jen, he didn't become a serial killer. I think he 450 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,239 Speaker 3: was born a serial killer and eventually triggered. Liza and 451 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: I have done a lot of research and talked to 452 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 3: a lot of psychoanalysts about the process and the genetic 453 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: makeup and the childhood trauma history of psychopaths, and Tony. 454 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 4: Had all the markings and he was eventually triggered. 455 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 2: And we will never know. 456 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: With the five victims that we know of, we'll never 457 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: know exactly what triggered him in each of those instances, probably. 458 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 4: A combination of things. 459 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: One of the major triggers was his wife finally sued 460 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: for a divorce. And she was from thirteen years old 461 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 3: until the day she filed for divorce, his only anchor, 462 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 3: his only real true north, his only safe spot. And 463 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: then she finally had enough, And so that is when 464 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: we at least know he started to unravel in a 465 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: real way. But being sued for divorce does not make 466 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: a serial killer, but it certainly may trigger one who 467 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 3: believes that everyone is his little duckling is his little follower. 468 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: Well, tell me either one of you. Tell me just 469 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: about the victims and what ends up happening. Who are 470 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: these women? 471 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: Well there are five of them. 472 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 3: Go ahead, Jen, Yeah, he was not the kind of 473 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 3: serial killer that would pick up a hitchhiker and leave 474 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: her in the ditch. 475 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: He knew all of his victims. 476 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: And that's where again back to Liza's memory versus my 477 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 3: coming in as a journalist looking at the evidence in 478 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: front of me. I think he was grooming Liza because 479 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 3: he groomed all of his victims. So they in some 480 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: degree trusted him enough to get in his car, go 481 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: out to the woods, be with him alone in ways 482 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: that obviously they shouldn't have. 483 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: Let's go through the victims one by one and just 484 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: kind of give me a quick overview of how he 485 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: met him and what we think happened. Sydney is the 486 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: first one. Is she in her teens or early twenties. 487 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: Teens, late late teens, and she meets him at a bar. 488 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: She's working in a bar that he goes into and 489 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: they strike up a friendship, a friendship over speed. Sydney 490 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: had a little speed problem, and so they get into 491 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: a relationship around drugs and people saw them around town 492 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 2: holding hands and whatnot. And then they pulled off a 493 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: heist of a pharmacy and they took the drugs and 494 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: they buried them in the woods, and she was killed 495 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: right there in the woods where the drugs were buried. 496 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: So something happened they went in to get the drugs 497 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 2: and then we don't know. So that was Sidney monson 498 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 2: last scene with Tony Costa. 499 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: Liza and I had an incredible resource in this research 500 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 3: from Tony himself. He wrote what she and I called 501 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 3: the Piece of Shit, because it's just this almost unreadable 502 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: prison memoir, prison diary, prison kind of fictionalized truth. And 503 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 3: in that he describes the murders of each of these 504 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: women and as Eliza said, always blamed it on somebody else. 505 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 4: So we know that he alludes to being triggered. 506 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 3: He alludes to Mary Anne laughing at him. He alludes 507 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 3: to Susan being a pest and hanging on his neck 508 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 3: and ugh, you know, no, I'm not going to be 509 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 3: your boyfriend. And he tells about Sydney, beautiful Sydney, and 510 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: how all of a sudden he was stabbing her with 511 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 3: a knife in the woods. So while he's blaming somebody else, 512 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: he's still describing the murders. 513 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 4: So she and I extrapolate, through our. 514 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 3: Research of knowing what triggers a serial killer, that he 515 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: was annoyed, he was bothered, he was shamed, he was 516 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 3: all those verbs that will trigger a fractious, fragile personality. 517 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: And each of the five that we know about, because 518 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 3: we do believe there are more that have never been found, 519 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 3: in some way threatened his ego, threatened his sense of self, 520 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 3: and he could not abide it right. 521 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: Christine said she was going to marry someone else. That 522 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: was what happened with Christine. She told him she was 523 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 2: going to marry someone else. 524 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: So who was number two? 525 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: That was Susan Perry, the one who was a pest 526 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 2: and drove him crazy and hung on his neck and 527 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: wanted to move in with him. 528 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Pat and Marianna are four and five? Is 529 00:26:59,640 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: that Ryan? 530 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: They are? 531 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: Who is Pat? 532 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: Pat was a school teacher. She was an elementary school 533 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 2: teacher in Providence, Rhode Island, and Mary Anne was a 534 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 2: student at the time, and they'd been longtime friends and 535 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: they were just out for a winter weekend away and 536 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: they found a rooming house in Provincetown, and they'd been 537 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: to Provincetown. Pat had been the year before, the summer before, 538 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: and had loved it. She was there with her boyfriend, 539 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: so she said to her friend, let's go. So off 540 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 2: they went, and they had the misfortune of being in 541 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: the same rooming house as Tony Gosta, and that's where 542 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: they met him and shared a bathroom, and that's how 543 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 2: he got access to their car and got them out 544 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: to the woods. The killing ground where he buried these 545 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: women is adjacent to a cemetery. It's about a quarter 546 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: mile back in the woods from an old cemetery in Truro. 547 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: One of the things that we knew about Pat was 548 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 2: that she loved to do the gravestone rubbings, and so 549 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: that maybe that's how they got her out there. That's 550 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 2: how he got her out there, And it could have 551 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: also been that he said, hey, I've got some weed 552 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 2: in the woods, you want some. I think it was 553 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: probably a combination of those things. And they ended up 554 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: being victims four and victims five. 555 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: How was he ultimately caught? 556 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: He took their car. And Jenn has said so many times, 557 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 2: and she's exactly right that if Tony costa hadn't been 558 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: a greedy you know what, and wanted that car more 559 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: than he wanted anything. They never would have caught him, 560 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: he implicated himself when he found out that they were 561 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: looking for these women. Obviously, two women who have careers 562 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: and lives just disappear, and so they're looking for the car, 563 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: and Tony walks into the police station and says to 564 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: jim Mead, Jimmy, I have their car. Why it's a 565 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: good question. I think it goes back to the meglomania. 566 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: I have their car, but I don't have any idea 567 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: where they are. First he told the story that they'd 568 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: gone to Canada to get an abortion. When you're crazy, 569 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: you're crazy. And he was crazy. I mean, you don't 570 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: walk into a police station and implicate yourself. But he 571 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 2: thought he had some grandiose imagination of himself that he 572 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: was too smart for the police, and he was too 573 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: smart to get caught. 574 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: Were you ever in the woods where these women were buried? 575 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: Oh? 576 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me about that. 577 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: We were in the woods for various things. The Trueau 578 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: dump is very close to the woods, So there were 579 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: parties out there that I remembered that we wrote about 580 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: in the book. There were just opportunities for him to 581 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: I think this is what I think is happening. And again, 582 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: in retrospect, I didn't know why I was in the woods. 583 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: We were just hanging out with Tony. In retrospect, I 584 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: think he was picking up some drugs from Mustache. And 585 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: so he'd park at the edge of the woods and 586 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: run in and run back out. Sometimes he'd be gone 587 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: for a long time. Other times we'd actually drive in 588 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: there and he'd dig stuff up and be running around. 589 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: He had a garden out there, and so one of 590 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: the ways that I connected with him because I didn't 591 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 2: have a dad, but I had a grandfather who I 592 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: had an amazing garden and who's teaching me how to garden. 593 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 2: And so Tony said he had a garden out there. 594 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: I was like, I know I can do this. I 595 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: know gardens. I may not be able to blow a 596 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: smoke ring yet, but I know gardens. So there was 597 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: a little bit of that. There was a little bit 598 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: of connection around that I do remember, and I think 599 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: we've written about it in the book, about being out 600 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: there and saying this is no garden I've ever seen. 601 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: So there were numerous occasions that was one of those 602 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: sensory memories I had was that rocking in that truck 603 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: and being so hot in the truck sometimes because you 604 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: get into those dense woods and it can be quite 605 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: claustrophobic in terms of the heat. So all those sensory 606 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: memories sort of have stayed with me over a lifetime. 607 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the things I wanted to ask you, 608 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: is what are the visceral things that trigger memories from 609 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: your time with him? I know you already mentioned the 610 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: music from the mid sixties, mid to late sixties. Is 611 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: it being in a bus that rocks a certain way 612 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: or what is it? 613 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: I think it's definitely being in the truck. We wrote 614 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: about this about my feet up on the dashboard and 615 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: it was always with my little painted toes and I 616 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: can see my feet on that dash those kinds of things. 617 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: When McCartney was recently interviewed, the interviewer asked him he said, 618 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: when you're driving along in your car and a Beatles 619 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: song comes on the radio, what do you do? And 620 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: he said, well, first I sing along, but then I'm 621 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: dropped right back into that studio where we're laying down 622 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: those tracks and the music was like that for me. 623 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: To this day, a song from that time will come 624 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: on the radio and I know every word, and Tim 625 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: will look at me, my husband will look at me 626 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: and say how in the world. I don't know. There's 627 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: just something about music and memory that has provided me 628 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: with this because I learned to sing and I learned 629 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: to love music in that truck and in my mother's 630 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: car as well. It was all we had. It really was, 631 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: you know, it was all we had. We had am radio. 632 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 2: That was it. There was no serious there was no cable, 633 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: there was no anything. There was one station WRKO out 634 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: of Boston. 635 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: Tell me about the trial. Once they make the connection, 636 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: he goes on trial and pleads not guilty. I'm assuming. 637 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: So after Tony tells Jimmy me that he has his 638 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: last two victims car, he presents himself to the police station, 639 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 3: and then for the next month or so, keeps going 640 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 3: back and just talks himself through you know, circle circle 641 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: circle talk, and his lies become lies upon lies. Tony 642 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: just could not keep his own story straight. He was 643 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 3: the last scene with many of his victims. 644 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: So they found the first body by accident, and then 645 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: for a month, because they had seen the car out there, 646 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: someone had seen the car parked out there. Yeah, and 647 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: so they searched for a month. After they found the 648 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: first body, they found Sydney and the two missing girls 649 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: from Providence. They went and arrested. But Jen's right, they did. 650 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: They had his number early on, they just couldn't pin 651 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: it on him. 652 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: I know this is a weird thing to focus on, 653 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: but I am shocked that they were able to find 654 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: a body in the woods that have been buried, and 655 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: they found it in February. Wasn't there just feet and 656 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: feet of snow on top of it? 657 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: There was a dusting when they were looking for Susan. 658 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: But on Cape Cod the climate is such that you 659 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: have the ocean effect, so you'll get a blizzard, but 660 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: it goes pretty quickly. On Cape Cod, snow doesn't usually 661 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: stick around. 662 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: Okay, I like a little weather talk sometimes. So what 663 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: is the ultimate sentence? I'm assuming he's convicted. 664 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: He is. He's convicted to life in prison. They consider 665 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: him a sexually dangerous person, but he thinks he's going 666 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: to get out. But no death penalty for him. They 667 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: took that off the table before the trial began, and eventually, 668 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy four he was incarcerated for five years, 669 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: I guess overall, including the trial period, and he was 670 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 2: found hanged in his cell in nineteen on Mother's Day. Wow, 671 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four. 672 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: Self inflicted. I'm assuming there's. 673 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: Some question about that, but it's officially a suicide, but 674 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: the police said he won't last long up there. They're 675 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: a conservative bunch in prison, which is, you know, one 676 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: of the many ironies of this story. 677 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: Because it was a sexually motivated crime. Is that why? 678 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: Exactly? 679 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: Wow? Okay, So what was the reaction when this started unfolding, Liza, 680 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: of your mother and your sister, all of this spilling out. 681 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: Well, I'll just give you briefly my mother's reaction, which was, 682 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 2: at first she cooperated, gave me a lot of her stories, 683 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: some of which did not make the book, but nevertheless 684 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 2: she told me a lot of stories that I hadn't 685 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 2: known before. And then when we had the galleys, I said, Mom, 686 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: the book is here. Wasn't an easy process, it's not 687 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: an easy story, but I thought maybe we could read 688 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: it together. And she said, well, why am I not 689 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 2: going to like it? And I said, Mom, it's about 690 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 2: my childhood and she said, oh. And that was the 691 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: last thing she ever said about it, and she died 692 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 2: what Jenny two months later? Three months later? Yep, three 693 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: months after the galley. Yeah, so that's what she said. 694 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: Did you need something from her before she died? No? 695 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: Okay, no, the time for that had long passed. It 696 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 2: would have been nice too. Oh god, it's such a 697 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 2: big question. It was what it was, and it was 698 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 2: much easier to come to terms with after she's gone again. 699 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: I think I said this in the beginning. I'll be 700 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 2: dealing with it all my life. And my sister is, 701 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 2: you know, so much younger than I am that she's 702 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 2: got some memories. As I said, she talks about her 703 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: cocktail party stories. She was much more defensive for my mother, 704 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 2: even though she herself has called my mother a sociopath 705 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: on many occasions, and I think she was Wow. She 706 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: feels much more defensive for my mother, and I feel 707 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: defensive for her too, but also needed to tell the story. Yeah, 708 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. There was just no other way to 709 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: put it. 710 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 3: It was another one of those points of tension between 711 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 3: Liza and me and the writing process in that Liza 712 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 3: didn't want to use the word in relation to her 713 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 3: mother's treatment of her. Even though Eliza suffered physical abuse, 714 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 3: emotional abuse, obviously a lot of neglect, she was protective 715 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 3: of Betty, of her mother in not wanting to call 716 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: a spade a spade, and we finally resolved it. But 717 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: it was hard for her to really admit and admit 718 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 3: on paper that's going to be in history forever, that 719 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 3: she had an abusive mother in her memory. You know, 720 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,919 Speaker 3: she protects not only Tony, who for her was one 721 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 3: of the few kind adults in her life and male adults, 722 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,959 Speaker 3: but also of her mother. 723 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: She was an abusive mother. 724 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 3: And yet that's very hard for any daughter to admit 725 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: to the world. 726 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: So I want to end on an interesting thing that 727 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: I heard Jennifer say, Liza, and that I just haven't 728 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: asked you yet. She said that she believes that Tony 729 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: was grooming you. Thinking back on that and all of 730 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: your experiences and all the research you've done and everything 731 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: that you've read about Tony, do you think he was 732 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: grooming you? 733 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,919 Speaker 2: I have to say, jen is not the first one 734 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: to say that. I can't imagine it. I don't want 735 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: to imagine it, and so I just know he was kind. 736 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 2: I just don't know. I think that that type of 737 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 2: personality does those kinds of things. So I think it's 738 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 2: entirely possible. Yeah, and again I struggle with the ten 739 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 2: year old Liza and the sixty three year old Liza, 740 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: who know two different things. So it's absolutely possible. But 741 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: I'm not nearly as sure as Jen is. 742 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: Has this book offered you peace or has it dredged 743 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: up even more from trauma that it sounds like has 744 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: been latent within you for decades. 745 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: Two things have happened. First of all, I feel very 746 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: separate from the book now, and I feel that that's 747 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 2: a good thing. That story is told now. That story 748 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: burned a hole in me until it was told. So healing, 749 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: I don't know. Healing is probably too simple, but certainly 750 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 2: I've exercised something. I'm constantly getting mail from readers who 751 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: are saying, I have that mother, and those stories don't 752 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: get told often enough. And so thanks for putting that 753 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 2: out there where I can see the mother I had, 754 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: Because think about mother and our culture. Yeah, think about 755 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 2: people need to see themselves when they're reading. It gives 756 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: them a great deal of that knowing and belonging thing 757 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 2: that we do and that we need as human beings 758 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 2: and so that thrills me. So it was worth dredging 759 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 2: and then putting behind me so I could have this 760 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: experience with people who clearly needed to see themselves. 761 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: And it sounds like the story of your relationship with 762 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: your mother, especially in that time period, was more traumatizing 763 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: or more painful for you to tell than the story 764 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: of being babysat by a certial killer, which is as 765 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: sounding to me. 766 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 2: That's the irony. That's one of the many ironies of 767 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 2: this book. It's about surviving her, not him. 768 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, words Mike Fance on 769 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the most Dangerous Attorney in America. 770 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 5: During the trial, it's the first time that you see 771 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 5: these Harry Mason like tricks that are coming into play. 772 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 5: Brockman brings a young girl out from Houston to sit 773 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 5: behind the defense table and cry, oh, that was her job. 774 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: That's a good job. 775 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 5: At one point, he deliberately has the defendant stand up 776 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 5: and punch one of the witnesses. 777 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now, 778 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked is based on 779 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold War Wicked. You might think 780 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: you know the the whole story of Killer Edward Rulof's Crimes, 781 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: But There's so much more. My book American Sherlock is 782 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold war 783 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: Media production. The producer is Alexis Imirosi. Our mixer is 784 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. Curtis heath Is. 785 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. Ilsabrink designed the website. 786 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 787 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 788 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And if you 789 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention, 790 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: especially if it happened in your family, email us at 791 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmoar wicked dot com. We'll also take your 792 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words