1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Former Trump campaign 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: chairman Paul Manafort is set to go on trial tomorrow 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: in Virginia on banking and tax fraud charges. President Trump 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: was sympathetic toward man of Port when speaking with Sean 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Hannity on Fox News earlier this month. Paul Manafort, Who's 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: who really is a nice man. You look at what's 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: going on with him. It's like al capone two thousand 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: and five tax case or a case that I guess 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: very It's just a sad thing. It's a very sad 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: thing for our country to say this. Joining us is 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Robert Mints, a former federal prosecutor and a partner in 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: McCarter and English Bob. During a storm of tweets on Sunday, 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Trump went on the offensive against Mueller personally. He said, 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: in part, is Robert Mueller ever going to release his 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: conflicts of interest with respect to President Trump, including the 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: fact that we had a very nasty and contentious business relationship. 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: The only thing we know, just a side note about 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 1: the allegations, which Mueller has denied, is that at Trump 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: National Golf Club in Virginia, there was a dispute and 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: fees according to Trump's people, but not according to Mueller's people. 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: So why this pre trial flutter, Well, it's hard to 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:39,919 Speaker 1: say exactly what's behind the motivations for going after Mueller 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: at this point, although obviously there's been a steady drumbeat 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: of criticism of the Special prosecutor, both by the President 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: and by his legal team. I think one thing we 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: can say for sure is it Judge Ellis, who is 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the trial judge and will be hearing this case, has 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: made clear to both prosecutors and the defense that he 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is not going to tolerate the injection of any political 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: issues into this trial, and he's not going to allow 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: lawyers to stray into areas that he believes could prejudice 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: the jury. So, for example, he's told the defense that 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: they cannot attack the motive of prosecutors for bringing this case. 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: He's admonished prosecutors not to tie this case to Russian 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: collusion because it's really not about Russian collusion, and prosecutors 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: in fact have said that they will barely mention the 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: word Russia if they make it at all during this trial. Bob, 42 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: given what you just said that that this case really 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: isn't about Russia, can you put it in context with 44 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: the rest of the Muller probe? What difference does this 45 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: trial make for the purposes of that probe and for 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Uh, That's a great question, Greg, I mean, 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: I think the answer is, first of all, that Manifort 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: supporters what argue this case has absolutely nothing to do 49 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: with Muller's inquiry, and in fact, they filed a motion 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: with the court to dismiss the case that very basis, 51 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: saying that the Special Prosecutor had exceeded his mandate in 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: bringing these charges. At the end of the day, this 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: case is about money that Mr Mantafort hallogally earned in 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: connection with work he had done over in politics in 55 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: the Ukraine, and the government's cases that he failed to 56 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: disclose many millions of dollars on his income taxes and 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: then later committed bank fraud in connection with certain loans. 58 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: The value of the case to the Mueller investigation is 59 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: whether or not they can ultimately put enough pressure on 60 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: Mr Manafort to have him cooperate with them, because he 61 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: did serve as the head of the Trump campaign during 62 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: a key moment during the election, and there's no question 63 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: that Mueller and his team believe that he's got valuable 64 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: information should they get him to agree to cooperate. Bob, 65 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: we already know a lot about what the prosecutors are 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: going to present, and they have thirty five witnesses, they 67 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: have five exhibits. Do you see any holes in the 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: prosecution's case that Manaforts attorneys might be able to use. Well. 69 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: So far, Manaforts defense team has done more of a 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: job attacking the process rather than the substance of these allegations. So, 71 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: as I mentioned a minute ago, they attacked prosecutors for 72 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: overstepping their bounds by bringing this prosecution in the first place. 73 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: But they've really not gone after the substance of this case. 74 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: So it's a bit of an open question at this 75 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: point as to what their strategy will be. It would 76 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: seem that this is a very well documented case based 77 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: upon the evidence that we've seen so far that's been 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: released in discovery, But obviously, at the end of the day, 79 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: prosecutors are going to have to prove that Mr Manafort 80 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: intended to evade his taxes and that he specifically lied 81 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: to bank officials in in getting a loan uh These 82 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: are specific intent crimes, and prosecutors are going to intend 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: to do that through these voluminous records and through the 84 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: assistance of the testimony of Rick Gates, who was MANA 85 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: for It's right hand man and who pled guilty last 86 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: February and is now cooperating with the government against his 87 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: former boss Bob. This is potentially one of two criminal 88 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: trials against Manafort. There's another one in federal court in 89 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 1: in d Cum. How would you compare the two cases? 90 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: Is are they totally separate? Is this one address rehearsal 91 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: for the second one? How do they interact with each other? Well, 92 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: there is a fair amount of overlap. This case, as 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: I mentioned, is really about tax evasion and bank fraud. 94 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: The Virginia case, which will start in September after this 95 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: case is concluded UH involves um bank fraud as well, 96 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: but also involves him failing to Manafort failing to file 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: uh F bars, which are declaring money that he has 98 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: earned overseas, and failing to identify himself as a far 99 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: An agent. So they are similar, but they're different. And 100 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: one of the real questions is why Manaforts Team has 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: elected to try these cases separately. Prosecutors had no choice 102 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: but to bring certain charges into Virginia and certain charges 103 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: in the District of Columbia. Typically, defense lawyers will want 104 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: to consolidate those cases as they as they can uh 105 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: in order to give the government only one shot at 106 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: their clients. Here we're seeing Manaforts Team allow the government 107 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: to go after him twice, and there's a question as 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: to why they're doing that that. That's always been my question, 109 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: but I don't think we have any answers yet. Maybe 110 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: we will later on. Thanks so much, Bob. As always, 111 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: that's from our federal prosecutor. Robert Menzi is a partner 112 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: at McCarter in English. The Board of c v S 113 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: will be meeting today to discuss the future of CEO 114 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: Leslie Mounvez, who is accused of sexual harassment by six women. 115 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: In a New Yorker article, author Ronan Pharaoh said at 116 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: the women he interviewed reported a culture of harassment and 117 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: retaliation at CBS. They also said that they were speaking 118 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: out because they were afraid there was a broader culture 119 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: of impunity across this company, which is something we heard 120 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: from dozens of people. In the article, Moonvest acknowledge there 121 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: were times decades ago when he may have made some 122 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: women uncomfortable by making advances, but said he never used 123 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 1: his position to harm anyone's career, joining us as Debora 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: Cats founding partner at Cats, Marshall and Banks Debora. It 125 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: seems that when there have been sexual harassment allegations made 126 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: in the cases of other high profile men in the media, 127 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: such as Charlie Rose Matt Lauer, they left their jobs 128 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: almost immediately after the news reports. So is it likely 129 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: that the board will ask Moonvest to step down before 130 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: a full investigation can be completed. Given these well documented 131 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: allegations in the Pharaoh article, it would be inconceivable to 132 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: me that the board would not ask him to step down. 133 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: This is a publicly traded company. The allegations are serious. 134 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: The allegations and retaliation show uh tremendous abuse of authority 135 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: and power, and I can't see CBS doing anything other 136 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: than asking him to step down. If that's the case, 137 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: what was the purpose of the statement that CBS is 138 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: independent directors put out earlier saying that they plan to 139 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: investigate and hire an outside law firm. Uh. Is that 140 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: not an effort to buy a little time to to 141 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: to figure out exactly what's going on? Well? Perhaps, but 142 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: you can imagine that if he gets fired and there's 143 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: not an investigation that's independent that's conducted, UH, he has 144 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: a massive amount of severance that he would be claiming 145 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: in entitlement to the bottom line is that CBS needs 146 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: to investigate this, and they need to understand how broad 147 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the behavior is, how many people were affected by it, 148 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: how many people were aware of the behavior, and whether 149 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: Moonvest's conduct are really affected other divisions and the behavior 150 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: of others, allowing situations like, for example, UH Charlie Rose 151 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: and what we now know our serious allegations at UH 152 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: in other divisions to take place. So Deborah Ronan Faraoh said, 153 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: the women he interviewed reported a culture of harassment and 154 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: retaliation at CBS. When the allegations are this old, how 155 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: do you how do you know whether that culture is 156 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: continuing or not? And how do you investigate it? You 157 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: investigated by UH speaking to people who have relevant information, 158 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: companies that really want to get at the issue of 159 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: culture and how pervasive harassment and fears of retaliation are 160 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: actually can do things like conduct climate surveys and do 161 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: focus groups, and once an independent investigator gets on board, 162 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a list of people who are the 163 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: appropriate people to talk to and they will have that list. 164 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: There are pending EO C charges again CBS, UH, so 165 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: those would be people to speak to. But typically investigators, 166 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: in speaking to one woman who has been arasked, will say, 167 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: speak to this other woman. And it goes on and 168 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: on and on, and even though the allegations are old, 169 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: the ones in the story, there are ones that were 170 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: from the early two thousand's And my guess is uh, 171 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: the behavior uh continued, It typically doesn't end. UM. So 172 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: the investigators have a lot of work to do, and 173 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: they're not only looking at moonvess behavior, but what happened 174 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: with the structure at CBS? What what what structurally is 175 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: broken there that would not allow people to come forward 176 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: with allegations for fear of retaliation, because that's what allows 177 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: this broader culture of immunity. Can you speak to less? 178 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: Moon was a public stance as a supporter of the 179 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: Me Too movement. UM is obviously these are still just 180 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: allegations at this point. But if these allegations are true, 181 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: is that just rank ypocrisy in his part? Well, we 182 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: see this again and again. We see this with Eric Schneiderman. 183 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: We saw this with Harvey Weinstein. What people's public stances 184 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: is often quite different from their private behavior, and it's 185 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: far worse than hypocrisy. In fact, it sometimes helps facilitate 186 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: very predatory behavior when you're perceived as someone who's a 187 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: champion of women. So, Deborah, the legal battle with Sherry Redstone, 188 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: who wants to merge CBS with Viacom, has been portrayed 189 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: as this Moonvez versus Redstone. You know, how might that 190 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: be affected by these by the allegations alone, Well, it 191 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: seems to me that Redstone is in a much better 192 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: position to say, as a majority shareholder, we are not 193 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: keeping him in this position regardless of that ongoing legal battle. 194 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: Um move has has has violated the trust of the 195 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: company and and shareholders, and she would certainly be within 196 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: her rights to say enough is enough. And Deborah, what 197 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: about the women who were allegedly harassed and abused? Do 198 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: they have some legal recourse here? Are is everything going 199 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: to be beyond the Statute of limitations. I think that 200 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: we don't know that yet. Certainly allegations from twenty years 201 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: ago or beyond the statute of limitations, whether anyone has 202 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: been affected within the relevant statute of limitations, we need 203 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: to wait and see. But I do understand that there 204 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: are pending e e o C charges and those would 205 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: be those would the claims that can be pursued. I 206 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: don't know who they're against. I just know that there 207 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: are pending charges with the e o C. All right, 208 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: just the start of this story. That's Debora Cats of Cats, 209 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: Marshall and Banks. Thanks Deborah, thanks for listening to the 210 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the 211 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com 212 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: slash podcasts. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg Ye