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Speaker 3: A Democratic Senate candidate running in Maine on a platform

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Speaker 3: of getting money out of politics, has spent his career

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Speaker 3: entangled with controversial pacts created by the notorious email fundraising

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Speaker 3: firm Mothership's strategies. The firm pioneer the hair on fire

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Speaker 3: fundraising tactics that often send more money to political consultants

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Speaker 3: than to political candidates. Mothership was recently the subject of

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Speaker 3: yet another viral investigation that revealed that of these six

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Speaker 3: one hundred and seventy eight million dollars that the company's

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Speaker 3: core political action committees raised since twenty eighteen, just eleven

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Speaker 3: million dollars went to candidates. One hundred and fifty nine

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Speaker 3: million dollars made its way to Mothership strategies. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 3: firm's spammy approach to email and text messaging, mock overdue bills,

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Speaker 3: sky is falling, rhetoric, and so on, has left the

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Speaker 3: grassroots commons desiccated, draining email fundraising of its potency and

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Speaker 3: driving many campaigns toward SMS, which is in the process

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Speaker 3: of being destroyed itself. Most fundraising firms, in order to

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Speaker 3: find businesses in order to find business pitched themselves to

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Speaker 3: political action committees, which are known as packs, and they

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Speaker 3: pitched themselves to candidates. Mothership does that, but also innovated

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Speaker 3: on the notion by simply making its own packs them

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Speaker 3: and then turning them into clients. As long as the

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Speaker 3: packs spend some of the money they raise on political purposes,

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Speaker 3: contributions to candidates, canvassing operations, producing ads, and so forth,

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Speaker 3: they are perfectly legal enterprises. Now Mothership has pointed its

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Speaker 3: money vacuum at the main Senate race, a true mother

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Speaker 3: load for fundraising consultants. In twenty twenty, democratic Senate candidate

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Speaker 3: Sarah Gideon raised just under seventy five million dollars directly

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Speaker 3: to her campaign before losing to Susan Collins, Yes seventy

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Speaker 3: five million dollars. Outside groups raised and spent another fifty

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Speaker 3: five million dollars to boost her or attack Collins. And

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Speaker 3: Gideon even finished with more than ten million dollars unspent

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Speaker 3: in the bank. Collins and the Republican sized, and the

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Speaker 3: Republican side raised and spent equivalent fortunes. Even a reasonable

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Speaker 3: percentage of that hall adds up to a small fortune,

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Speaker 3: and Mothership has never been accused of taking too small

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Speaker 3: of a cut.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: The candidate in this case is named Jordan Wood, and

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Speaker 3: he's been executive director of two packs in the Mothership ecosystem.

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Speaker 3: His husband, Jake Lipsett, is a co founder of Mothership

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Speaker 3: and remains a partner. Wood and Lipsett bought a home

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Speaker 3: in Maine not long after Gideon's loss. In March twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, Lipsett and Wood bought a four thousand square

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Speaker 3: foot lakeside home in Bristol, Maine, for two point one

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Speaker 3: five million dollars, now valued at more than three million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Quote Jordan was born and raised in Lewiston, Maine, and

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Speaker 3: always dreamed of moving home to Maine to raise his family.

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Speaker 3: When Jake and Jordan began planning to start their family,

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Speaker 3: they moved home to Maine, unquote, said Sarah McCarthy, a

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Speaker 3: campaign spokesperson for Woods campaign.

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Speaker 4: Now out of the Gate.

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Speaker 3: Wood was quickly endorsed by a Progressive Turnout Project pack

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Speaker 3: and Defend the Vote Pack. Both Mothership packs widely derided

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Speaker 3: for their predatory fundraising tactics and minimal level of genuine

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Speaker 3: political activity. In twenty nineteen, The Washington Post reported that

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Speaker 3: Mothership's quote lightning quick rise also has sparked consternation in

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Speaker 3: democratic circles, where Mothership is some times to ride it

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Speaker 3: as the m word because of its aggressive and sometimes

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Speaker 3: misleading tactics unquote.

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Speaker 4: Now Defend the Vote.

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Speaker 3: Since launching in the twenty twenty cycle has raised and

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Speaker 3: spent just over eleven million dollars, according to FEC records.

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Speaker 3: Of that, three point eight million has gone to Mothership.

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Speaker 3: Spending well over thirty percent of a total organization's budget

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Speaker 3: on a single fundraising consultant is considered highly unusual. PTP meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: has raised and spent more than three hundred and ten

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Speaker 3: million dollars since its launch in twenty fifteen. Of that,

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Speaker 3: thirty nine million dollars went to Mothership, but even that

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Speaker 3: large number is deceiving, as FEC records show PTP got

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Speaker 3: nearly ninety million dollars of its cash from QUOTE affiliated committees.

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Speaker 3: Those committees use Mothership for their fundraising and then move

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Speaker 3: the money to PTP. A budget of ptp's size, the

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Speaker 3: organization raised ninety point three million dollars for the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four cycle, so typically make a political organization a

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Speaker 3: significant player in democratic politics, but Progressive Turnout Project has

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Speaker 3: left barely any visible footprint outside of your email inbox.

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Speaker 3: In fact, go search for a Progressive Turnout Project in

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Speaker 3: your inbox, you probably get their emails.

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Speaker 4: Now spokesperson for PTP.

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Speaker 3: Rejected that characterization. Quote Mothership strategies has helped power our

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Speaker 3: efforts since day one. The funds we've spent on our

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Speaker 3: digital fundraising program have allowed us to become the largest

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Speaker 3: democratic field organization in the country other than the presidential campaign,

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Speaker 3: said PTP.

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Speaker 4: Now, the two packs.

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Speaker 3: Have already deployed their massive email lists in the service

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Speaker 3: of fundraising for Jordan Wood, whose campaign said he has

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Speaker 3: already raised more than two million dollars. From a political perspective,

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Speaker 3: the early endorsements were puzzling, as seventy seven year old

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Speaker 3: main governor Janet Mills has yet to decide whether to run,

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Speaker 3: which had the effect of largely freezing the field of candidates.

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Speaker 3: The packs endorsed before knowing who else would run. In

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Speaker 3: the meantime, a new insurgent candidate, oysterman and veteran Graham Platner,

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Speaker 3: has emerged as a credible challenger, running on a platform

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Speaker 3: of taking on the billionaires on behalf of the working class.

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Speaker 5: At its core, it's a working class ideology that has

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Speaker 5: built in movement politics. So I take my inspirations from

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Speaker 5: the labor movement, I take my inspirations from the civil

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Speaker 5: rights movement. American history is not a history of working

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Speaker 5: people asking permission to get things from those in power.

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Speaker 5: Every good thing that we have gotten, quite frankly, for

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Speaker 5: working people in this country does not come from writing

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Speaker 5: a strongly worded letter to someone in power and then

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Speaker 5: they just give it to you. We need to build power.

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Speaker 5: We need to build organizational power both the communities and workplaces.

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Speaker 5: We need to build a much deeper structure of power

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Speaker 5: through our political apparatus in a way that we can

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Speaker 5: leverage it far after campaigns come and go.

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Speaker 3: So a spokesperson for Wood said that his campaign would

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Speaker 3: not work with Mothership. Quote Jordan Fermaine has not and

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Speaker 3: will not hire Jordan's husband's firm. We are working with

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Speaker 3: a competitor, said Sarah McCarthy, the spokesperson for woods campaign.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: Jordan is running for Senate because he believes our representatives

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Speaker 3: should be accountable to regular folks, not billionaires or the elites,

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Speaker 3: which is why he won't take a dime from corporate

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Speaker 3: packs or lobbyists unquote. Now Wood began as the political

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Speaker 3: director for End Citizens United, which was birthed by Mothership

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Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen as a campaign finance reform project. Wood

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Speaker 3: helped get it off the ground, becoming its finance and

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Speaker 3: pack director in November twenty fifteen and later its political

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Speaker 3: director and vice president, leaving in January twenty twenty. According

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Speaker 3: to an ECU spokesperson, while Wood was there, ECU paid

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Speaker 3: Mothership more than nine million dollars while raising seventy three

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Speaker 3: million dollars.

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Speaker 4: The spokesperson said the Wood.

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Speaker 3: Campaign said, Wood recused himself from eescu's dealings with Mothership

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Speaker 3: once he and Lipset began dating. The pack eventually became

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Speaker 3: independent of Mothership, completely cutting ties in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: and Mothership now deploys Defend the Vote as its election

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Speaker 3: integrity related pack rather than ECU now. Notably, while Defend

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Speaker 3: the Vote has endorsed Wood for Senate, ECU, his former organization,

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Speaker 3: has not, despite the fact that he served as its

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Speaker 3: executive director, strengthening ECU's claim to independence from the Mothership network.

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Speaker 4: In the twenty twenty two cycle.

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Speaker 3: The Mothership ecosystem grew with the advent of a new pack,

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Speaker 3: Democracy First Pack, which made Wood executive director in September

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, would step down in April twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five to run for Senate, while Lipsett remains a partner

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Speaker 3: in Mothership, which now boasts on its website of having

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Speaker 3: raised nearly eight billion dollars.

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Speaker 4: For clients that was billioned with a B.

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Speaker 3: The Pack, Underwood's leadership, did not initially hire Mothership for

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Speaker 3: email fundraising, and instead relied on a handful of major donors,

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Speaker 3: including three point five million dollars of the first cycle

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Speaker 3: from philanthropist Lynn Schustermann as he left. But as he left,

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Speaker 3: Mothership came in and Democracy First ended up shoveling huge

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Speaker 3: amounts of money their way. The month he left, the

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Speaker 3: pack funneled more than five hundred thousand dollars to Mothership,

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Speaker 3: followed by another two payments nearing one hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: total in May and June of this year. Woods campaign

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Speaker 3: did not address drop sites specific questions about these payments,

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Speaker 3: and I asked them a follow up question about these

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Speaker 3: payments specifically, and they ignored it again. Mothership, for its part,

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Speaker 3: did not respond to a request for comment, So then

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Speaker 3: Jordan transferred control of Democracy First to Progressive Turnout Project,

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Speaker 3: which subsequently endorsed him in March twenty twenty three before

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Speaker 3: Wood left. According to filings with the FEC March twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, Democracy First named Harry Pascal, co founder of

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Speaker 3: Progressive Turnout Project, as its treasurer and custodian of records,

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Speaker 3: switched its mailing address to the same address used by PTP,

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Speaker 3: and named a slew of Mothership packs as quote affiliated committees.

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Speaker 3: Progressive Turnout Project's co founder, Hannah Gildner now runs Democracy

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Speaker 3: First quote Progressive Turnout Project was inspired by the work

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Speaker 3: Democracy First was doing and wanted to fold it into

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Speaker 3: their operation to augment their existing state and local work,

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Speaker 3: said Woods campaign spokesperson McCarthy.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: In March twenty twenty five, Democracy First became affiliated with

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Speaker 3: Progressive Turnout Projects, She went on, They went on, We're

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Speaker 3: proud of the work Democracy First has done on the

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Speaker 3: ground electing pro democracy candidates with field support and key

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Speaker 3: battleground states like Pennsylvania, and Progressive Turnout Project wanted to

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Speaker 3: ensure that work would continue into the twenty twenty six cycle.

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Speaker 3: Democracy First and Progressive Turnout Project were two of the

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Speaker 3: only organizations to provide support to Pennsylvania State Senator James

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Speaker 3: Malone and his upset special election victory in March. Currently,

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Speaker 3: Democracy First is on pace to spend one million dollars

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Speaker 3: in field support for local elections in Pennsylvania this fall,

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Speaker 3: as preparing twenty twenty six plans for Arizona, Michigan, Nevada,

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Speaker 3: and wisconsint quote. Progressive Turnout Project, the sister pack to

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Speaker 3: Woods Democracy First Pack, is likely going to raise tens

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Speaker 3: of millions of dollars from people hoping to oust Susan Collins,

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Speaker 3: much of which will be funneled to Lipsett's mothership. Progressive

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Speaker 3: Turnout Project, in a statement, said that it stands by

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Speaker 3: its early.

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Speaker 4: Endorsement of Jordan Wood quote.

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Speaker 3: We've been familiar with Jordan's work for years, and we

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Speaker 3: also understand the importance of fielding a strong competitor against

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Speaker 3: an entrenched Republican incumbent as early as possible.

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Speaker 4: The statement read, we.

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Speaker 3: Believe Jordan continues to be the most formidable candidate to

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Speaker 3: take on Susan Collins.

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Speaker 4: Unquote.

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Speaker 3: Now, Emily, what's so wild about this Mothership story is

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Speaker 3: that the world's known about them for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: If we have this next element, we can put this

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Speaker 3: Hugh Post article up on the screen. This is twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: I edited this story back in twenty sixteen. Headline is

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Speaker 3: this group raised eleven million dollars to defeat Citizens United.

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Speaker 4: So why do people hate this?

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Speaker 6: Is that your headline?

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Speaker 4: I'm sure that was my headline. Paul.

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Speaker 3: Story by Paul Bluenthal, good piece. Go back and read

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Speaker 3: it and it looks it's like, wow, look, all of

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Speaker 3: this money is being raised ostensibly for campaign finance reform,

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Speaker 3: and then it's getting moved to this fundraising firm, and

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Speaker 3: the emails are completely insane and they're driving everybody crazy,

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Speaker 3: and everyone in the election reform.

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Speaker 4: Space hated them.

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Speaker 3: Soon after that, I knew President of the board came

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Speaker 3: in and actually ESU starts then moving away from Mothership.

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Speaker 3: Then in twenty nineteen, but this next element up Washing

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Speaker 3: Post comes in with this like which I mentioned briefly

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Speaker 3: at the top, how a little known Democratic firm cashed

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Speaker 3: in on the wave of midterm money.

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Speaker 4: Like this, look into their practices.

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Speaker 3: Again, this had the effect of getting campaigns like Ostoff

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Speaker 3: used them in twenty eighteen for his house race. Doug

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Speaker 3: Jones used them I'm in Alabama, and they do raise

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Speaker 3: enormous amounts of money, like those emails work, but then

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Speaker 3: Mothership keeps like an enormous percentage of it and it

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Speaker 3: churns through people's inboxes. Are like, okay, fine, I give

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Speaker 3: you money to go away. Yeah it's like, ah, you

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Speaker 3: gave us money, You're getting emails forever.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you just made it so much worse.

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Speaker 3: So after that Washing Post article, the party basically stopped

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Speaker 3: using them, but they still had all these packs that

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Speaker 3: they've made, So they make a pack Progressive turn On

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Speaker 3: project whatever, and then they raise money for the pack,

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Speaker 3: then they take money from the pack for raising money

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Speaker 3: for the pack, and then they do some voter turnout

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Speaker 3: stuff or whatever they do.

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Speaker 6: It's financialization of politics.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's good money.

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Speaker 3: They're making enormous sums of money to think that you're

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Speaker 3: you know, if you talk to voters, one of the

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Speaker 3: things they don't like about the party. And I wonder

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Speaker 3: if this is true of Republicans as well, because I

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Speaker 3: don't know what their email habits are.

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Speaker 4: Is the text messages in the emails?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everybody tries pep great and Mothership was the pioneer

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Speaker 3: of all this stuff. And then Mothership's this guy he's

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Speaker 3: going to run for Senate.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean to be fair, that strategy got Kamala

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Speaker 6: Harris elected president.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is carbon bombing your text messaging.

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Speaker 4: It worked, of.

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Speaker 6: Course, control the Senate and the House right now. So

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Speaker 6: it can't argue against the strategy.

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Speaker 3: Was it her husband who on Saturday at Live was like, Kamala,

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Speaker 3: can I get off these text messages at least? And

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Speaker 3: She's like, no, hell no, you absolutely canno.

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Speaker 4: So okay.

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Speaker 3: The argument for it is that it works to raise money.

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Speaker 3: But the argument against it here is that these packs

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Speaker 3: are not.

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Speaker 4: Doing much with all of that money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's and it's denuding the comments.

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Speaker 6: It's a vicious cycle because the more you fuel the strategy,

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Speaker 6: the more the money is going to go lining the

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Speaker 6: pockets of the consultants who do the strategy, rather than

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Speaker 6: actually getting back to a better point where you can

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Speaker 6: have the money going to the candidate's actual campaign efforts themselves,

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Speaker 6: not entirely unlike the Washington Post story this week that

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Speaker 6: revealed the Harris campaign or the DNC agreed to cover

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Speaker 6: the debts of the Harris campaign so long as Harris

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Speaker 6: herself was fundraising in the background and trying to raise

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Speaker 6: the money. So Kamala Harris would raise the money if

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Speaker 6: the DNC covered the cost. And it's like a shocking amount.

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Speaker 6: It was like one and a half billion dollars and

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Speaker 6: I've made like twenty million something like that, which is

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Speaker 6: good numbers for the DNC, But a lot of that

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Speaker 6: you can go back and look was spent on things like.

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Speaker 3: This, and you can do it more money, you can

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Speaker 3: do it another way. The two biggest email fundraisers and

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Speaker 3: Democratic Party politics are Bernie and AOC. Yeah, and if

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Speaker 3: you read Mary Taylor Green too, and I don't know

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Speaker 3: how what hers are like, but if you read I'm

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Speaker 3: curious to tell me, if you read aocs or Bernie's,

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Speaker 3: they're not this. Yep, they're they're trying to be inspirational

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Speaker 3: and they don't say like if you don't give five

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Speaker 3: dollars like you, you know, I'm going to be throwing

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Speaker 3: in prison tomorrow.

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Speaker 6: Oh, you're talking about the pitches themselves. I'm talking about

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Speaker 6: small dollar donors in general.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But so the two biggest or AOC and Bernie, and

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Speaker 3: they managed to raise the money without begging predatory stuff

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Speaker 3: in your inbox, right, So it shows that if you

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Speaker 3: have if people are invested in you, believe in you,

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Speaker 3: they will give you money to do that project. The

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Speaker 3: problem for the Democratic Party is nobody's bought into them. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because what do they stand for? So they have to

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Speaker 3: then the only thing left is fear.

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Speaker 4: But what is that?

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Speaker 7: What is?

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Speaker 4: Do you know? What? The do you get?

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Speaker 6: Her emails show I didn't Yeah, I shouldn't have spoken

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Speaker 6: because I didn't. I don't know what the tone of

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Speaker 6: her fundraising pitches are. My guests would be that they're

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Speaker 6: more similar because she has a really similar rate of.

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Speaker 4: Small dollar people are into her.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's actually she's even higher than some populist

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Speaker 6: Democrats among small like percentage of your donations that are

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Speaker 6: small dollar I think actually higher than AOC.

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Speaker 3: Well, you can get a lot of emails and contacts

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Speaker 3: off of Facebook, Like that's where So the way that

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Speaker 3: this whole scam works basically.

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Speaker 6: A little Cambridge analytica E.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you run Facebook ads to basically attract people onto

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Speaker 3: your email list and then you email them. Democrats are

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Speaker 3: not on Facebook as much as Republicans are nowadays, is

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Speaker 3: my sense. Yeah, and so and are certainly Bernie AOC

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Speaker 3: supporters are under forty and fifty yep, so they're.

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Speaker 4: Definitely not on Facebook.

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Speaker 3: So it's actually much harder than to collect their emails.

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Speaker 3: So it would stand a reason that marchiallah Green's people

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Speaker 3: who are on Facebook and still on email. But anyway,

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Speaker 3: the idea that this like maybe Jordan Wood is like

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Speaker 3: I'm the greatest candidate ever, but like.

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Speaker 4: He's part of this ecosystem that people don't like, and.

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Speaker 6: It's part of an arms race, and that's exactly like

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Speaker 6: you just end up in this arms race for out fundraising,

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Speaker 6: and then the money keeps going disproportionately in higher increments

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Speaker 6: to the fundraisers instead of to the campaign. And that

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Speaker 6: is absolutely I mean, I have a friend who's a

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Speaker 6: consultant who has a super flaming hot take on this,

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Speaker 6: which is actually, like, we spend way more money annually

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Speaker 6: on Halloween candy than we do on presidential elections, and

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Speaker 6: like we should be spending way more money in presidential elections,

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Speaker 6: and that's the like it. I just think that's completely crazy.

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Speaker 6: I feel like we spend little believe well, of course, yeah,

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Speaker 6: but like a sincere ideological belief that we should be

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Speaker 6: spending way more money. It's it's self serving, of course,

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Speaker 6: but a sincere argument because we do just spend a

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Speaker 6: lot of money in this country, and hey, if our

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Speaker 6: priority is Halloween candy, like, why not actually spend so

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Speaker 6: much money and you know it doesn't have to all

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Speaker 6: go to ads. I disagree with that, and I think

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Speaker 6: most Americans disagree with that, And I'm really curious how

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Speaker 6: the Platner campaign talks about it because at a certain point,

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Speaker 6: and I guarantee the consultants and fun razors know this.

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Speaker 6: You hit a tipping point when people catch on in

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Speaker 6: the emails, get sick of the emails. We're not yet there.

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Speaker 6: We're not at peak text or email, but we will

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Speaker 6: at some point and then it will not work anymore.

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Speaker 6: And then you will have to pivot to something else

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Speaker 6: and we'll see what that is. But it's not going

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Speaker 6: to always work. And I think at a certain point

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Speaker 6: the platterners of the world, it becomes valuable to them

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Speaker 6: actually campaign on these process things.

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Speaker 4: And in May at least you can't put any more

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Speaker 4: money in.

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Speaker 3: I had a member of Congress from there predict to me,

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Speaker 3: that's like Sarah getting won't even be able to spend

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Speaker 3: this money because there are only so many hours of

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Speaker 3: like local television.

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Speaker 4: Ads you can buy.

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Speaker 3: Ye, there's only so much space in somebody's mailbox to

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Speaker 3: cram flyers and these glossy mailers, and people are sick

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Speaker 3: because a lot of people in main you have to

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Speaker 3: pay to have your garbage picked up, or you have

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Speaker 3: to drive it to the dump, and you have to

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Speaker 3: pay by the wait. And now you've got every single

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Speaker 3: day you're getting half a pound of these like political mailers.

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Speaker 4: It starts to like take people off, so.

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Speaker 3: That that's one reason she's, you know, finished the race

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Speaker 3: with ten million bucks in her back. Like it's like

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Speaker 3: Brewster's millions, just impossible to spend. And that's why the

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Speaker 3: fundraising consults are like, all right, well, how about we

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Speaker 3: just take a little bit more from you so you

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Speaker 3: can't spend it anyway?

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Speaker 4: Use another boat. What's good as a lakeside good as

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Speaker 4: the lakeside house without.

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Speaker 6: A boat, we could all use another boat.

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Speaker 3: We invited Jordan wood On to respond to this.

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Speaker 4: He did not take us up on.

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Speaker 3: That offer, so would be texting him. We're not trying

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Speaker 3: to be biased here, right, but.

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Speaker 6: We will be texting him ten times every hour until right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we emailed him one hundred and fifty five times

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Speaker 3: despite him unsubscribing from.

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Speaker 6: The headline all caps urgent.

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Speaker 3: Definitely signing him up for drop side emails. Yes, oh

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Speaker 3: that's a good idea. Graham Platner speaking, which did take

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Speaker 3: us up on the offer, will be here tomorrow, that's.

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Speaker 6: Right, So make sure to say tuned tomorrow for that. Now, Ryan,

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Speaker 6: let's get to Taylor Loreentz, who was joining us to

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Speaker 6: have a little friendly debate.

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Speaker 4: It would be so disappointed. It's not Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 6: No, well, we started with Swift, then we thought about

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Speaker 6: rearranging the block so that it said Taylor Swift on

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Speaker 6: the bottom bar.

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Speaker 4: But all right, let's bring in Taylor.

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Speaker 3: Joining us now is Taylor Lorenz, who, as often is

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Speaker 3: at the center of some Internet discourse, this time around

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Speaker 3: the moves by schools that are opening up this week

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Speaker 3: and next to ban phones inside their walls. I told

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Speaker 3: my fourteen year old that we were going to be

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Speaker 3: talking about this, and she is utterly shocked and appalled

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Speaker 3: that I think that they should actually have to put

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Speaker 3: their phones away when they go into the school, and

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Speaker 3: that I disagree with you on this. She's just apoplectic,

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent supportive of your position. The from talking

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Speaker 3: to other friends of hers as well as like I

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Speaker 3: was reading the Jackson read Like student newspaper about it

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Speaker 3: last year when they introduced the band. I think if

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Speaker 3: you pulled the students in high school, it'd be roughly

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Speaker 3: ninety nine percent, if not one hundred percent, opposed to

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Speaker 3: these bands. So like they have a view on this

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Speaker 3: that I think does need to be considered. Is it

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Speaker 3: it's unusual that kids would be wrong and adults would

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Speaker 3: be right.

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Speaker 4: I think that they are wrong. I think that we're

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Speaker 4: right about what I want to hear out.

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Speaker 3: Your you know, the best arguments for my daughter's case,

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Speaker 3: because she frankly wasn't making it. She's like, I want

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Speaker 3: to be able to text my friends in class.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, that's not a good artist.

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Speaker 8: But no, we don't want that. We don't want.

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Speaker 3: That's like only when we have breaks.

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Speaker 8: Though, well, of course, Okay, So here's the thing.

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Speaker 9: First of all, no one wants their kids or no

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Speaker 9: one wants any kids on their phone during class distracted, like,

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Speaker 9: no one, no normal person would.

441
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 8: Make that argument.

442
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 9: That's yeah. And there's a big, sort of a wide

443
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 9: range of options between laws that are often enforced by

444
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 9: campus resource officers police, and we can get into that

445
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 9: versus rules or norms or you know, other ways of

446
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 9: sort of like curtailing cell phone behavior use during class.

447
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 9: So my opposition is specifically to the laws. You know,

448
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 9: if schools, if teachers want to have certain policies, if

449
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 9: they want, you know, everyone to put their phone in

450
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 9: a basket or these little pocket things that they make

451
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 9: now for classrooms, you know, that's totally fine.

452
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 8: I think that's great.

453
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 9: I would encourage teachers to kind of cultivate their own

454
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 9: learning environments. But I think once we get into these

455
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 9: blanket laws, there can be a lot of unintended effects,

456
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 9: and I think that we are not discussing a lot

457
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 9: of those unattended effects. And specifically, I'm concerned with the

458
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 9: sort of civil liberties implications with some of the laws.

459
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 6: So yeah, if you could rush out what some of

460
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 6: the civiliberties implications of that might be, I think Ryan

461
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 6: and I are both on the same page. Particularly, Ryan

462
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 6: has done reporting on this over the years about how

463
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 6: some of the unintended consequences of sweeping laws.

464
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 10: That are.

465
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 6: They're able to be implemented. They get the political permission

466
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 6: structure to be implemented by lawmakers because they're addressing a

467
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 6: serious problem. And then the attempt to address a serious

468
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 6: problem has unintended consequences because they're able to do the

469
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 6: power grab. Everyone was sort of desperate for some type

470
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 6: of solution. So I don't object to the idea that

471
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 6: there may be unintended consequences. Here, tell us a little

472
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 6: bit about what you think they might beat Taylor.

473
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, so we've had tech bands in the past, and

474
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 9: I would say the closest corollary to this is actually

475
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 9: the beeper ban. This was a little before my time,

476
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 9: but back in the early nineties, there was this really

477
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 9: big panic about beepers. Kids had the beepers going off

478
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 9: in class like pagers were a new thing. This was

479
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 9: a big distraction at school, and there was a lot

480
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 9: of concern about beepers, and you know, it was the

481
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 9: implication was that people use beepers for like drug use,

482
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 9: so if there was this moral panic around them. We

483
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 9: saw how those laws played out where basically hundreds of

484
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 9: kids ended up having interactions with police, some kids ended

485
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 9: up with criminal records. In one Chicago's school, dozens of

486
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 9: kids were arrested, and kids were just having these regular

487
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 9: interactions with the police already. I talked to a parent

488
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 9: in La just last week who was talking about this

489
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 9: exact issue where the teachers, rightfully in certain environments don't

490
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 9: want to enforce these bands, or the administrators, and we

491
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 9: have an increasing number of police in school campus resource officers,

492
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 9: which is actually skyrocketed since the days of those deeper bands,

493
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 9: and those are often the people that are sort of

494
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 9: tasked with enforcing these bands. So it ends up just

495
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 9: being this quite discriminatory policy where they just sort of

496
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 9: harass kids they you know, and it just leads to

497
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 9: more interactions with kids and police. So I'm sort of

498
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 9: against that. I also think that we have to look

499
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 9: at this law in the context of this broader legislative

500
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 9: and political effort that we're seeing right now to restrict

501
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 9: kids from access to the Internet. And I can get

502
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 9: into that more broadly, but I think a lot of

503
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 9: people have been sort of talking about things like age

504
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 9: verification and these other things, and this law is very

505
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 9: much tied, like these laws rather are very much tied

506
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 9: in this broader political effort to sort of censor the Internet.

507
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 3: Before we go into some of that, I wanted to

508
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: get you to address the related controversy that you're that

509
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 3: you're inside now, even going back and forth with a

510
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: couple of people on Twitter, including Rachel Collen Booth who

511
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: flagged maybe we can put up what we.

512
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 9: Decided to say that I was paid by a phone company.

513
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 9: I am not paid by a phone company, never have

514
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 9: been paid by a phone company. I don't know what

515
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 9: like that really bothered me, But.

516
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 6: You did put up the tag paid sponsors.

517
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 4: I did it.

518
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: Well, let's let's put out her in their case and

519
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 3: then have you respond to it. Their case is that

520
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: so you did a TikTok for that you that about Bark,

521
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: which is a you can tell us.

522
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 8: Something child safety software.

523
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the post it said hashtag ad and it

524
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 3: had a link that had a long code at the

525
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: end of it and you see tracking code, tracking code.

526
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: He said, you're doing this in partnership with Bark.

527
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 6: So people in the screenshot we had right there did

528
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 6: have the tag paid partnership for.

529
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 9: The reason, I know, Oh my god, that's such a

530
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 9: derailing thing. The way that on TikTok, and I understand

531
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 9: for people that don't use TikTok, they don't understand this.

532
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 9: There's only one way to tag promotional content. So you

533
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 9: click promotional content on TikTok, it comes up as paid

534
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 9: and that just means that the brand can put money

535
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 9: behind it, doesn't mean that you got money. I've been

536
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 9: extra extra careful where even things that I'm not paid for,

537
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 9: I'll market it as promotional because I am making something promotional,

538
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 9: like hey, I really like this product, but me making

539
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 9: a free promotion for child safety software that I use, that,

540
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 9: by the way, is completely is unrelated and is actually

541
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 9: on the same side as you guys on these vands.

542
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 9: It's just so absurd and ridiculous, and I think it

543
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 9: just shows the the attempt that people will go to

544
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 9: to sort of smear and attempt to discredit anybody that

545
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 9: even raises issues with this. I have been reporting on

546
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 9: this topic for eight years, Like I've been writing about

547
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 9: all of these laws, the broader political effort. I've been

548
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 9: talking about people like Jonathan Height whoever are going into

549
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 9: these school districts and specifically lobbying for these laws, the

550
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 9: interest groups around that. This is something that I've covered

551
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 9: for a long time, and I'm actually, you know what

552
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 9: who's actually paying me is this is this program this

553
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 9: reporter is in residence program that I'm in right now

554
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 9: where I'm specifically I got into the program talking about

555
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 9: covering these laws. That's what I am being paid for.

556
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 9: It is basically this fellowship program. So it's just very silly.

557
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, you did post screenshow or somebody

558
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: posted screenshots of the company saying yeah.

559
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 9: The company has said many times on the record she's

560
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 9: not paid. But it's like, I think people will just

561
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 9: jump to anything where they just kind of want to

562
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 9: make up a narrative because they want to discredit this issue.

563
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 9: And this is very normal in moral panics. I write

564
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 9: a lot about moral panics, and I'm not saying that

565
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 9: necessarily kids being on their phone in classes moral panic.

566
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 9: But this issue is very tied to a broader moral

567
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 9: panic about cell phones, where people are convinced that they're

568
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 9: you know, making kids sort of mass unlive themselves and

569
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 9: things like that.

570
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 8: Not to use YouTube learning lego.

571
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 4: You can see why people thought from the way that.

572
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 9: It was for sure, of course, of course, but also like, well,

573
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 9: of course I can understand like people getting confused, but

574
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 9: at that point you have me responding, and I was

575
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 9: at a funeral that day, so I didn't have the

576
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 9: chance to respond quite so quickly as people might have liked.

577
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 9: But and then the company issuing multiple statements saying, you know,

578
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 9: this is just not the case. You've misunderstood the situation.

579
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: But you know, well, so the question on the moral panic, yes,

580
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: it's just it does seem to me.

581
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, just in my own life, I'm

582
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: not a kid anymore.

583
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: In my brain is better formed than kids that we

584
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 3: are still developing. But even myself, since smartphones have come around,

585
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: I think I read less. Do I do more audio books.

586
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: I used to be able to sit down and read,

587
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: you know, ten twenty thirty pages at a stretch and

588
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: then take a little break or something. Now it's like

589
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: a page and a half, and I find myself.

590
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 4: Like distracted or strolling.

591
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 3: Combine that with the rates of anxiety and depression that

592
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: we're seeing society.

593
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 4: Why are we like, why are we wrong?

594
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 9: Well, you could combine that with the rate of baggy

595
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 9: pants Ryan, and you would find also a correlation that doesn't.

596
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: Mean those things actually skinnier in that skinny pants.

597
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 9: So what I would caution people against is making these

598
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 9: broad based sort of conclusions.

599
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 8: We actually had quite literally.

600
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: Distracted from the book to like, look at my baggy pants.

601
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 9: Well, distracted you are, but you are making that correlation

602
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 9: that just does not exist in research. And we have

603
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 9: the top the top, top top researchers, people like Candice Oders,

604
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 9: who wrote a great piece for The Atlantic on this

605
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 9: exact topic, Alice Marwick, like people that have studied this

606
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 9: issue in depth for years and years and years coming

607
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 9: out and saying, hey, we actually do know the cause

608
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 9: of some of these broader issues anxiety, all of these

609
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 9: other things We know those causes and they're not related

610
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 9: to phones. There is no correlation between those things, and

611
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 9: it is just a fact based on the research that

612
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 9: we have that that is just not a sort of

613
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 9: a clear correlation. That's not to say that Ryan, Oh gosh,

614
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 9: you have to read her piece. It's kind of long

615
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 9: and I don't want to mess it up, but all

616
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 9: sorts of things. I mean, one in six kids is

617
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 9: growing up below the poverty line, like I don't know,

618
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 9: just all of these other things that kids are dealing with,

619
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 9: Like they're growing up in a pretty stressful world and

620
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 9: they're told just the way that I was told that

621
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 9: video games were, you know, destroying our lives. Back in

622
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 9: you know, when I was growing up, we had the

623
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 9: video games sort of panic where people were like, oh,

624
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 9: these kids spend hours and hours on the video games.

625
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 9: It's destroying their mental health, it's making them violent. Like

626
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 9: we've seen these moral panics play out over and over

627
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 9: and over again. That doesn't mean that that doesn't mean

628
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 9: that everyone has a healthy relationship with their phone, and

629
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 9: you shouldn't worry. What we know is that the way

630
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 9: that you are can often inform your behavior. So if

631
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 9: you are already depressed and you go down a rabbit

632
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 9: hole that can exacerbate it or whatever. But it is

633
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 9: sort of like it is more a symptom rather than

634
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 9: the problem. And when we're treating it as the problem

635
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 9: rather than the symptom of the problem, we don't ever

636
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 9: get to address the sort of core issues. And often

637
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 9: and there are core issues that sort of lead to

638
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 9: these mental health issues among children. And again that does

639
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 9: not mean that they should be able to sit on

640
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 9: the cell phones all day. But what I would say

641
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 9: is a lot of this moral panic is tied to content.

642
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 9: So you'll see these people saying like they're going to

643
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 9: sit on TikTok all day, right, They're going to sit

644
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 9: in class all day like on TikTok. And the concern

645
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 9: is more about the content and the sort of villainizing

646
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 9: of short form video content.

647
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 6: We a I don't disagree with you because you've shared

648
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 6: a subsect that's been going pretty viral, I think from

649
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 6: somebody who disagrees with you, and a lot of different things.

650
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 6: And someone had sent that to me separately as well,

651
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 6: And it's about how the argument is that these bands

652
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 6: are a way to shoehorn sort of content bands, and

653
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 6: I don't actually disagree that that's probably the case with

654
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 6: some people, that it's kind of a gateway to age

655
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 6: verification laws and certain things that do genuinely encroach on

656
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 6: CIVI liberties and creativity and freedom and all of that.

657
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 6: I wanted to get your take though on I mean,

658
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 6: I'm looking at I've three studies pulled up, one from

659
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 6: plus one, one from Scientific Reports, and this other one

660
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 6: is from.

661
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 9: I just want to say, before you pull up any studies,

662
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 9: we have to look at the body of research, and

663
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 9: we have to look at how and I can't speak

664
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 9: to these specific studies, sure, but what I would say

665
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 9: is that all of the top researchers on this topic,

666
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 9: this specific topic got to gather last year and issued

667
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 9: an eighty two page report serving the overwhelming amount of

668
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 9: sort of studies on this topic and debunked this a

669
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 9: lot of misleading studies pushed by this man, Jonathan Height,

670
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 9: which is sort of the most popular person.

671
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 6: I'm not even going to get into Height. Here's the

672
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 6: other one. Here's from the Journal of Association for Consumer Research.

673
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 6: And I'm not I mean, I'm not an expert on this,

674
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 6: so I'm just saying these are studies, not about anxiety

675
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 6: or any of that. This is a study that shows

676
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 6: and this is particular to the phone ban issue. I

677
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 6: think it's it's salient separately that showed the kind of

678
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 6: brain drain phenomenon. I think we all probably feel this intuitively,

679
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 6: or maybe you disagree, which is that as you're doing studies,

680
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 6: even having a phone near you, even if it's like

681
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 6: flipped down, reduces cognitive capacity. And so in the question

682
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 6: of whether or not it's proper for a school district

683
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 6: to say we're locking these guys up in yonder pouches

684
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 6: from the beginning of the school day to the end

685
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 6: of the school day, it seems to me that addresses

686
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 6: the very specific question of whether kid's cognitive capacity is

687
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 6: harmed while they're learning because they on their backpack.

688
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, but like these studies are so dubious, Like often

689
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 9: these are industries like or they're funded by people with

690
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,439
Speaker 9: specific political agendas like et cetera, et cetera.

691
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 6: You also have to consider that about the big tech

692
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 6: funded studies that go in the other direction.

693
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 9: But there's tons of non big tech funded studies. And

694
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 9: again you have to look at the overwhelming body of

695
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 9: research and the overwhelming body of research.

696
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 6: Simply cognitive capacity question. What about the cognitive capacity question.

697
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 9: The cognitive capacity question is is a good question. But

698
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 9: here's the thing that you have to consider. All of

699
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 9: these school districts are different. And this is again I'm

700
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 9: not saying that this means kids can be on their

701
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 9: phone all day in class. I'm just against these laws

702
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 9: where certain places you put the phone away, but you're

703
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 9: on a laptop. You're on a really high functioning, great laptop,

704
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 9: and that's totally fine, and you're sort of connected. A

705
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 9: lot of school districts, the phone is the only word

706
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 9: processor people have. When you start to block them away,

707
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 9: you're you know, fifteen percent of kids are disabled. A

708
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 9: lot of kids use these as learning aids. And I

709
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 9: know that's hard to believe, but a lot of times

710
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 9: the phone is the only sort of computer that kids

711
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 9: have in school. And we haven't even gotten into this yet.

712
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 9: But because of big tech lobbying and other things we

713
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 9: have had, and because we just are trying to prepare

714
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 9: kids for the modern world, we have integrated technology into

715
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 9: every part of the learning process, and so sort of

716
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 9: and our lives and sort of sort of take this

717
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 9: one piece away without addressing and without having any funding.

718
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 9: These laws don't come with like funding initiatives or whatever

719
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 9: to fix the broader infrastructure. It sort of just leaves

720
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 9: kids less prepared. I would also say, we want to

721
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,959
Speaker 9: teach kids restraint and control. We want to teach kids.

722
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 9: What we don't want is for them to go off

723
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 9: when they're eighteen to college and not know how to

724
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 9: self regulate their own technological use.

725
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 8: Right.

726
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 9: We want to give them a safe environment where there

727
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 9: are guardrails, where they're not allowed to sit on the

728
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 9: phone all day long, but where we can teach them restraint.

729
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 9: Otherwise it's you're just prolonging the inevitable. Because phones, as

730
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 9: much as this political effort is trying, are not going

731
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 9: to be banned from public life hopefully anytime soon for

732
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 9: adult and or the workplace. And so we want to

733
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 9: encourage a healthy relationship.

734
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 8: With tech, if that makes sense.

735
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: It always has struck me as odd that schools are

736
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: filled with all of these different electronic devices and they

737
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 3: focus on this one thing.

738
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: It's still on the other hand, you.

739
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: Don't think there's so what from your perspective, what do

740
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: the studies say about the effect of screens on developing

741
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 3: brains and on.

742
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 9: Kids Yeah, well there's that's a big there's a big question,

743
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 9: right because you have, like if you talk about screens

744
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 9: on developing brains, like you don't want to put a

745
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 9: one year old in front of a screen like YouTube all.

746
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 8: Day or something.

747
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 9: But overwhelmingly, I mean, I think Candice Dodgers has really

748
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 9: just been the best and I encourage people to seek

749
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 9: out her work Aunt Alice Marwick. These are two brilliant

750
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 9: researchers that have really spoken about this at length. But

751
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 9: this idea of like screen time and the panic over

752
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 9: screen time is just very imprecise, and the reason that

753
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 9: the studies don't show anything is because it completely depends

754
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 9: what your screen time is. You could be using your

755
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 9: screen time to consume content that is making you feel

756
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 9: bad or something, or you could be using your screen

757
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 9: time to text your friends and be creative and make

758
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 9: creative work.

759
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 8: We want people to do the latter.

760
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 9: We want to teach kids to use their phone in

761
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 9: healthy and creative ways. And when we tell the kids,

762
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 9: especially when the primary way that kids use their phone

763
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 9: is through texting, the primary way that kids use social

764
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 9: media is actually dming with each other, It's not scrolling

765
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 9: the feed. Adam Massari came out and even said that,

766
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 9: So we don't want to villainize communication. We want kids

767
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 9: to stay in healthy, productive communication with each other and

768
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 9: not bully each other, and have positive experiences with each

769
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 9: other and have social interaction, especially queer kids, kids that

770
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 9: are from marginalized groups who rely on these online connections

771
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 9: a lot more than other kids. But we just want

772
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 9: to give them a healthy way to do that and

773
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 9: teach them boundaries. And the best way to do that

774
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 9: is to teach it to them when they're young, not

775
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 9: to completely ban devices until they turn eighteen and then

776
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 9: it's a complete free for all. It's just that that's

777
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 9: not an effective way to teach anybody a healthy media consumption.

778
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 6: What about parents who let me try this one out.

779
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 6: What about parents who say they don't actually they don't

780
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 6: give their kids phones. They don't want their kids to

781
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 6: have phones. They worry, they read the studies differently, they

782
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 6: have different perspective on it, and they don't want their

783
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 6: kids to be exposed to phones at all. So the

784
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 6: bands then allow those parents to allow their kids to

785
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 6: have a phone free childhood without them getting shown something

786
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 6: in between classes that actually, from the content perspective, may

787
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 6: be harmful. Maybe take your example of maybe it's a

788
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 6: queer kid and someone shows something on the phone between

789
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 6: classes that is harmful to their mental health, and their

790
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 6: parents want to be able to prevent that. How would

791
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 6: why not allow parents to let their kids, let make

792
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 6: that decision for their own kids because they control that

793
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 6: between classes.

794
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 9: No, but what I would say is that you should

795
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 9: be careful with that decision. We know actually that the

796
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 9: mental the health of kids that have the smartphone sooner

797
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 9: is actually more positive, Like they have better mental health

798
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 9: because they're able to get in touch with friends. And ironically,

799
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 9: it's also been found that like, poor kids have access

800
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 9: to phones much more easily than richer kids, so it's

801
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 9: not explained by you know, income, and that is because

802
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 9: they're able to keep in touch with friends. You know,

803
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 9: there's a study that came out that recently found that

804
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 9: as well that like kids actually spent more time outside

805
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 9: with you know, with friends because they were able to

806
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 9: make plans. So you want kids to be able to

807
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 9: communicate with friends. This idea of this like phone free childhood. Again,

808
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 9: we live in a world. I know that there's these

809
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 9: political efforts the people that are selling the phone free

810
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 9: childhood idea. They're also pushing a lot of other reactionary

811
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 9: political efforts that would censor adult adults from content too.

812
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 9: They want to go to a world before phones and

813
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 9: before the Internet, and I admit to that mean and well, guys,

814
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 9: let me tell you there's a lot of bad about

815
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 9: the Internet. And I've written about bullying, and trust me,

816
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 9: I am no one is saying. I just have to

817
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 9: reiterate this again that you should have unmitigated access to

818
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 9: your cell phone all day when you're thirteen years old.

819
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 9: You have to teach healthy internet use. But we live

820
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 9: in the world and if you want your kids to

821
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 9: be competitive, and if you want your kids to be

822
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 9: able to function and have a job and make it

823
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 9: through college, you do need to teach them these skills.

824
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 9: And I understand the fights that come with it. But

825
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 9: the way that we can fight these addictive you know, algorithms,

826
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 9: and I think the problems that a lot of people

827
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 9: have with the phones in terms of the content is

828
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 9: through comprehensive data privacy reform. You want less addictive algorithms,

829
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 9: you want less predatory apps, you want less control of

830
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 9: big tech, and more nonprofit driven online spaces that are

831
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 9: about community join me in advocating for privacy laws and

832
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 9: data privacy specifically, we will never get those laws these

833
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 9: if this political effort to ban the phones and age

834
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 9: restrict everything is successful, because and let me just say

835
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 9: one other thing, at the same time that they are

836
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 9: banning phones, they are, you know, doing these schools are

837
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 9: doing partnerships with surveillance software companies that will do facial

838
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 9: recognition to determine who's allowed to be on campus and

839
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 9: who's not. Harvesting detailed biometric data on children, like all

840
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 9: of this stuff that could have significantly worse consequences for

841
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 9: them down the line.

842
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I saw a couple of months ago you

843
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: write about those studies that you just reference, and that

844
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: was one of the first times where I was like, oh,

845
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 3: this is this is kind of interesting. You did a

846
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: piece about how the studies were showing that kids that

847
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 3: didn't have access to phones at all, like had worse

848
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 3: mental health outcomes.

849
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 6: But that's also the collective action, right, because if you

850
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 6: need to have a cell phone to make plans with

851
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 6: your friend, it's because exactly and you're the only one.

852
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 9: That will do right, right, So and I think there's

853
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 9: a balance. I just think there's a balance here, and

854
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 9: I just think before we jump to laws that will

855
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 9: be enforced by campus police officers, we should have a

856
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 9: more balanced discussion of what we're trying to achieve and

857
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 9: what the realistic trade offs are, because there are realistic

858
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 9: trade offs here, you know, not to mention the problems

859
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 9: with parents and shift work and school. You know, there's

860
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 9: just so many down the line.

861
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: Well, so from your perspective, final question, what should what

862
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: should parents do?

863
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 8: Oh god?

864
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 9: I think it depends on the type of school that

865
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 9: you have, and it depends on your child's educational environment

866
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 9: and who your child is and how they're using their phone.

867
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,919
Speaker 9: I am against like, I am against you know again,

868
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 9: just like giving your kid completely unsupervised internet time and

869
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 9: unsupervised phone time forever. Obviously you want to slowly introduce

870
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 9: And the reason I was talking in the first place

871
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 9: for free about like child you know protection software is

872
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 9: because it sort of allows parents to have a little

873
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 9: bit more control over their kids online experience. I think

874
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 9: it's good to introduce kids to phones. I think having restrictions,

875
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 9: parental restrictions, taking it away during certain times the day,

876
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 9: teaching them moderation and how to work with phones and

877
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 9: use their phone in a healthy way and communicate in

878
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 9: a healthy way. It's helpful and just that's that's brought

879
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 9: up the Internet. That's the other thing is that like

880
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 9: these phone conversations are going to be irrelevant. Kids have

881
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 9: app watches, smart glasses. The Internet is getting more and

882
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 9: more integrated into every part of our life. We're gonna

883
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 9: have wearables soon. So we have to we have to

884
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 9: help kids have this healthy relationship with the Internet while

885
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 9: they're still young.

886
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 6: Ryan is an elder millennial. But as junior.

887
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: School during the beeper thing, and yeah, it was like

888
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: pitched about drug dealers and it's like kind of drug dealers,

889
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: like getting pinged in class about.

890
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 6: But I was just gonna say, as a junior millennial,

891
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 6: my high school was cut in half by the smartphone.

892
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 6: And I'm fully, fully concede to being part of a

893
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 6: moral panic, and the swimmer probably could seem to be

894
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 6: a moral planic. I'm a much much different side of

895
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 6: this than you are, a tailor, But we appreciate you

896
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 6: coming here and making the case and allowing us to

897
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 6: have this discussion.

898
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,919
Speaker 9: Yeah, thank you for having me and please don't please

899
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 9: don't destroy me online. I'm just trying to add a

900
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 9: little nuance to tell people, tell people where they can

901
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 9: find your work.

902
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm on YouTube at Taylor Lorenz.

903
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 9: I have a series called free Speech Friday where I

904
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 9: talk about civil liberties concerns and tech policy. So I

905
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 9: talk about this stuff specifically, and I'm everywhere else, just

906
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 9: at Taylor Lorenz.

907
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 6: Well, thank you so much for coming on.

908
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 8: Thank you.

909
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: Slightly different kind of segment here, we have new reporting

910
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 3: from drop site on the ground in Serbia from journalists there.

911
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: Let's just go ahead and roll this today.

912
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 11: Name This is the Novi Sad railway station in Serbia,

913
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 11: built in nineteen sixty four. After a recent renovation, it

914
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 11: was officially reopened in July twenty twenty four. Just a

915
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 11: few months later, on November one, twenty twenty four, at

916
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 11: eleven fifty two am, a concrete canopy weighing over three

917
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 11: hundred tons collapsed, killing a total of sixteen people. Following

918
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 11: the renovation, the station building had neither an occupancy permit

919
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 11: nor a completed technical inspection. The initial estimate for the

920
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 11: works was three million euros. In the end, the cost

921
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 11: rose to sixteen million. The station was renovated as part

922
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 11: of the construction of the high speed railway from Belgrade

923
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 11: to the Hungarian border, a project of national importance carried

924
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 11: out under a Serbia China agreement. In Serbia, such deals

925
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 11: are commonly made behind closed doors. In the aftermath of

926
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 11: the tragedy, the investor, Chinese partners, Serbian Railways and President

927
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 11: Alexander Vutich all stated that the collapsed canopy had not

928
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 11: been part of the reconstruction. It would later emerge that

929
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 11: each of these claims was false. Modifications to the canopy

930
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 11: had in fact been carried out. In the first days

931
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 11: following the collapse. Those responsible were largely neither detained nor

932
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 11: held in custody, with most released pending trial or allowed

933
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 11: to remain under house arrest. Fifteen days after the tragedy,

934
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 11: Tributes to the victims begin across Serbia, held every Friday

935
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 11: at eleven fifty two a m. Twenty two days after

936
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 11: the collapse, Students were resulted by officials and members of

937
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 11: the ruling party while paying tribute in front of a

938
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 11: university building in Belgrade. The protests swell in size in

939
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 11: the days that follow. Students initiate blockades at the more

940
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 11: than sixty universities and colleges across the country to the public.

941
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 11: This marks a completely unexpected response from a student population

942
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 11: long seen as apathetic and disengaged from politics. The students

943
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 11: advocate for the rule of law, the fight against corruption,

944
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 11: strong institutions, and respect for the legal system. They demand accountability.

945
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 11: They distanced themselves from political parties and refuse to meet

946
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 11: with the president, stating that their demands do not fall

947
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 11: under his constitution authority, but under the jurisdiction of other institutions.

948
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 11: They receive support from the public in Serbia as well

949
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 11: as from students in neighboring countries of the former Yugoslavia.

950
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 11: Decision making within the movement is based on the principles

951
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 11: of direct democracy. Resolutions are adopted at general assemblies by

952
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 11: a majority vote of those present. Every voice can be heard,

953
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 11: every proposal can be put to a vote. As they

954
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 11: occupy their university buildings, students put forward an initial set

955
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 11: of four demands. First, they call for the full release

956
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 11: of all documentation related to the reconstruction of the Novisad

957
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 11: railway station, records that are currently unavailable to the public. Second,

958
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 11: they demand that the relevant authorities confirm the identities of

959
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 11: those suspected of physically assaulting students and and the criminal

960
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 11: proceedings be launched against them, along with the dismissal if

961
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 11: the whole public office. Third, they called for all charges

962
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 11: against arrested or detained students to be dropped and for

963
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 11: all ongoing criminal proceedings against them to be halted. Fourth,

964
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 11: they demand a twenty percent increase in the budget for

965
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 11: public universities.

966
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 12: The promenium system provis put an Establian Sastran and nemains sees.

967
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 12: What is necaska and doc Ludiki the Augusta the malt

968
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 12: student rosa to Grajani a solid sour skin in Svens

969
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 12: with students gradia huge and it's professor. Well, corruption in

970
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 12: this society, in our country is so deep it reached

971
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 12: all the way down to dinosaurs.

972
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 13: How could you translate up in English adding the positive energy,

973
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 13: don't stuff and don't lower attention.

974
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 14: Yeah, prouded door, let me.

975
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 10: That's is Nusta hochs in St. Maka atomic. There's a.

976
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 6: Almost believes the NFL not.

977
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 11: Loyal students organize gatherings in multiple cities across Serbia, reaching

978
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 11: them through multi day protest marches, which, as many have said,

979
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 11: in some ways sent a pulse through the country.

980
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 6: Let's just stop before only go amoti Anamlica.

981
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 10: You put it a little what.

982
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 6: You said, no I say, can I say? You set

983
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 6: you to what you will?

984
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 12: That before the speak.

985
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 8: Someone for.

986
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 10: You said, Nico enough spin is actor is actor.

987
00:53:59,520 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 8: Friend of.

988
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 12: Ernan over that on Babila servil to office.

989
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 15: That miss that's Hime eloquently millionaire.

990
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 6: Mother Prasco Privilegia.

991
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 11: President Vootage has ruled Serbia for thirteen years. While the

992
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 11: country is formally on the path toward European integration, Vootage

993
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 11: continues to cultivate ties with both Moscow and Beijing. His

994
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 11: rule is described by the Serbian opposition as increasingly authocratic.

995
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 11: Serbia remains one of the few countries that has not

996
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 11: imposed sanctions on Russia, even as negotiations over the status

997
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 11: of costsover continue are the close international supervision. Meanwhile, Serbian

998
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 11: ammunition is being sent to both Ukraine and Israel. The

999
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 11: European Commission has included the lithium mining project in Serbia,

1000
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 11: led by the company Rio Tinto, among the projects of

1001
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 11: strategic importance for the European Union. There is a growing

1002
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 11: sense that Vutich enjoys the backing of all major world powers, who,

1003
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,919
Speaker 11: preoccupied with their own crisis, pay little more than lip

1004
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 11: service to concerns of a Serbian's internal political situation.

1005
00:55:51,600 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 13: Sati stud easily nilotic.

1006
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 6: Yeah kill met I thought more?

1007
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 8: Or this is the tooth.

1008
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 11: At the end of November twenty twenty four, during a

1009
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 11: commemoration for the victims of the Novi Sad tragedy, an

1010
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 11: incident occurred in the town of Pagas.

1011
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 9: Do have some more?

1012
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 7: What's the queer automobile?

1013
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,760
Speaker 4: Who concious?

1014
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 7: This is town and.

1015
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 15: Boy but always in ademptied approaches.

1016
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 4: You choy approach. The teams catches automobile. It catches who

1017
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 4: haves it to talk to automobile Stree Norman.

1018
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 11: In late January, after four young men emerged from the

1019
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 11: offices of Vootige's party in Novi Sad and fractured a

1020
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 11: female student's jaw in three places using baseball bats, Serbian

1021
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 11: Prime Minister Miloshvuvich submitted his resignation. Just over three months later,

1022
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 11: President Vutich referred to those same party members as heroes

1023
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 11: and later pardoned them. Vootige and members of his ruling

1024
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 11: party labeled the protesters as foreign paid agents, accusing them

1025
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 11: of working on behalf of outside powers to overthrow both

1026
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 11: the government and the state.

1027
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 7: Who politics quat team slugamma only quiz of Telida propalymla

1028
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 7: propa only to us salems with.

1029
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 11: In their pursuit of justice, the students visited European institutions,

1030
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 11: cycling for thirteen days to Strasbourg and then running a

1031
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 11: relay Ultramarthon for eighteen days to Brussels. On March fifteenth,

1032
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 11: the largest gathering in Serbia's history took place in Belgrade,

1033
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 11: with some three hundred thousand people responding to a call

1034
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 11: from the student movement. During the event, some form of

1035
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 11: sonic weapon was reportedly used, a claim supported by testimonies

1036
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 11: from over three thousand citizens. The government denied all such allegations,

1037
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 11: dismissing the public's reaction as staged and orchestrated.

1038
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 15: Nico near primetio n top basically slip nico toristio premation

1039
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 15: watch of Isabelagian documental.

1040
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 11: And just today after this statement, a photograph surfaced showing

1041
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 11: a police vehicle equipped with an l R A D

1042
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 11: four fifty x l acoustic device in front of the

1043
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 11: Serbian Parliament during the protest. The Minister of Internal Affairs

1044
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 11: then offered an explanation.

1045
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:59,959
Speaker 4: On catastroposlas. This is a test of a long range

1046
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 4: acoustic device helped.

1047
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 11: Them as their original demands remain unmet After six months

1048
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 11: of protest. On May fifth, the students issue a new

1049
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 11: demand early elections in Serbia. They state they will not

1050
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 11: run as candidates themselves, but will vote on a candidate

1051
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 11: list through their general assemblies. Meanwhile, repression against dissent in

1052
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 11: Serbia is intensifying. There are political arrests and persecutions, widespread

1053
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 11: surveillance raids on civil society organizations, and the expulsion of

1054
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 11: foreign nationals.

1055
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 4: Right, that'll do it for us today.

1056
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 3: You around on Friday, I'm around on Friday, year around

1057
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: on Friday.

1058
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 4: I'll be here on Friday, but.

1059
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 6: I think we're off Monday. I think the show's off

1060
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 6: Monday because it's Labor Day weekend.

1061
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 4: So that is correct, So no show money.

1062
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 3: So you really got to be there for Friday if

1063
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 3: you want the whole show on Friday, not just the

1064
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 3: first half. At Breakingpoints, dot Com become a premium member

1065
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 3: supports everything we do here. I've also been arguing that

1066
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 3: we should do the Friday show live for premium members, right,

1067
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 3: because why not?

1068
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 4: Like we got nothing to hide.

1069
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 6: The sneakest thing Ryan does is just talk about some

1070
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 6: of our internal discussions on air so that he can

1071
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 6: then use viewer feedback to people.

1072
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 4: We're demanding it now.

1073
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 6: People are crying out for the Taylor Swift segment, but no,

1074
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 6: I think live would be fun. We don't really edit

1075
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 6: it anyway.

1076
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 4: No, this just goes up.

1077
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 6: Although sometimes our DM's open when we share our Twitter.

1078
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's got to be honest. We just got a

1079
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 3: better opsec, like do what Griffin does, which is log out.

1080
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 6: Yes, we can all learn from well, So we'll be

1081
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 6: here Friday. Maybe we'll because we'll be off Monday, shove

1082
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 6: some extra stuff in so great to make up for

1083
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 6: being off on Labor Day. So maybe we'll do that.

1084
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 6: Make sure that you're subscribed over at Breakingpoints dot com.

1085
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 6: But other than that, Chrystlin Soccer will be here tomorrow.

1086
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 6: We'll be with them or some combination of them Friday.

1087
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 6: And if you if you're not there Friday, you got

1088
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 6: to be there Friday. But if you're not, we'll see

1089
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 6: you back here next Wednesday's right, see you then,