WEBVTT - Jennifer Egan 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:06.400 Ninety three was like my jam like, so I'd like 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:08.640 I fully like, I'm like, oh ninety three, I could 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:10.200 have been at this party, like literally, I was living 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:11.959 in New York. I could have been there. I probably 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.880 was there. I bet I snog bis I am in 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:17.319 her book. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.040 Maybe you are exite. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.040 Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved Preust's questionnaire. It 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.360 was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players would 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.720 ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.600 other player's true nature. In asking different people the same 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.160 set of questions, you can make observations about which truths 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.879 appear to be universal. And it made me wonder, what 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.640 if these questions were just the jumping off point, what 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.160 greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.160 as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and I 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.960 wrote my own seven questions that I personally think are 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.160 pertinent to a person's story. They are when and where 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.000 were you happiest? What is the quality you like least 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:08.520 about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.639 What question would you most like answered? What person, place, 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.640 or experience has shaped you the most, what would be 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.320 your last meal? And can you tell me something in 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.959 your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.480 I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.080 I am honored and humbled to have had the chance 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.720 to engage with. You may not hear their answers to 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.120 all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.520 which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising, 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:45.720 or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.960 today is the multiple awards winning writer Jennifer Egan. I 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.360 try not to fanger on this podcast. It is hard, 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.840 but usually I can hustle my stammering enthusiast into another 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.960 room and present a slightly more implacable version of myself. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.960 I didn't really manage to do that with Jennifer because 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:09.880 her work, her words, and characters, live so presently in 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.600 my own life. Her bullet Surprise winning novel A Visit 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.440 from the Goon Squad lives permanently on my nightstand, and 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.280 I constantly reference it when I can't sleep, when I'm 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.440 stuck with something i'm writing, or when I'm turning over 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.239 the idea of a character I'm going to play. Jennifer, 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.440 like a lot of the characters she writes, has this 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.160 kind of briny brilliance. Each answer she gave to a 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.440 question I asked hinted at a far bigger mechanism at play, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.160 and I literally could have asked her a million questions more. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:41.680 She has a brain you want to spend time in, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.960 and a way of speaking and writing that cuts precisely 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.359 to what is most revealing and to me, most interesting. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.600 Her books are fantastic. I encourage you to read all 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:57.360 of them, by the way I just said it, and 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.800 I now think that that is exactly what I'm going 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:03.440 to That's not my new fantasy. I was actually in 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:03.919 your book. 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:05.600 I bet we passed each other. 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.320 We passed each other on Avenue Age countless times. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.200 I'm sure I'm. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.000 Going to get in trouble if I keep asking you 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.120 questions like can I come over? Do you think I 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.800 was in your book? It sounds like I was, but 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.560 the answer is yes, come every time. We know that excellent, 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.640 I will. I'm going to get on and ask you 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:26.880 these questions because I also want to know what you 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:34.000 think about these. So my first question to you is 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.720 where and when were you happiest. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:38.920 I mean, it's always hard, it always feel a little 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.160 artificial to pick one moment, and so I usually go 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.360 with the first one that comes to mind, because I 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.040 guess I'm all about trusting instants in first drafts. So 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.840 I'm going to say when I went with my husband 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.200 and kids to Galway in Ireland in the summer of 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.640 twenty eleven, and we were staying in a little bed 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.960 and breakfast, and we were actually all in one tiny room. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.760 It was much tinier than we had expected. Our beds 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.960 were almost jammed together, and our kids were eight and ten, 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.880 and there was just something about that intimacy and that closeness, 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.000 that feeling of our bodies just being so close together 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.040 that it was like we were one being that I 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.040 absolutely loved. And maybe because they were eight and ten, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.560 I thought that would never change, of course, but you know, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.039 they're twenty two and twenty now would be pretty weird 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.159 if we were still sharing rooms that size, et cetera. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:35.680 And so I think there was just this sense of 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.720 the preciousness of that proximity, of that sense. 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.839 Of I was going to say, what is it about 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.400 proximity that is the engenders that feeling of deep, abiding 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.440 peace and happiness. Is it because you think you had 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.760 a subconscious idea that there was a timestamp on it. 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:54.960 I think it probably was just that I never had 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.719 that in my nuclear family. My mother and father, I 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.280 have no memory of them together. They divorced when I 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.920 was two. I grew up apart from my father, and 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:05.640 there were more children. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:06.240 On both sides. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.479 But that sense of being physically linked to a small 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.440 unit and deeply bound to that unit and having them 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.040 all around me, I don't think I had actually ever 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.840 experienced it, So it was just so moving. And I 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.240 also just think the fact that we were in Ireland 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.160 was important too, because I had never been there, but 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.640 my father was proudly Irish American. And on that same trip, 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.800 we went to the town where some of my ancestors 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.760 had come from, and we went to a graveyard where 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.640 it seemed like every other name was Egan spelled the 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.359 same way. And so the sense of connection to my 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:49.240 own past, coupled with this tremendous physical proximity to my 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.720 immediate nuclear family, was just intoxicating and so beautiful. 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.240 I love that. I love that you going to a 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:00.640 place where you're seeking to reconnect and finding that, but 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.000 also just being packed into a little tiny room like 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.000 a wolf pack. I think that's really beautiful and I 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.039 really like that. I must say that pack feeling, not 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.279 having had physical proximity much as a kid either, that's 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.760 the feeling that I love with my dog, my boyfriend 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:19.320 and my son. 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:24.279 There's something about the bodies together that is so immediate. 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.080 I wonder if that is like reptilian brain, which is like, 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.200 when we are all together, we're safe. The sabertooth tiger 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:32.760 can't get us. The rock is rolled in front of 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:37.320 the cave, nobody's out, we're here. Everybody smells right, and 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.400 it's sort of hermetically. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.520 Sealed exactly, and you're not doing that tiny calculation that 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.840 I think we all do all the time of where 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.040 is so and so and where is so and so? Well, 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.760 I didn't have to ask that question because I could 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.560 reach out and physically touch every person in the room. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.120 And I remember there was one point where we were 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.240 all lying in bed. Each of us had our own book, 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.080 and we were lying there in silence in this tiny 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:01.719 little room and it was just it was heaven God. 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:02.960 I love that. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.719 I just love the little, tiny, sort of maybe cultural 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:09.560 stereotype about Ireland. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.400 Like this, this teeny weeny. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.920 Beds just all packed in together, the baby sardines. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.760 Yeah, it's true, and it was just a wonderful little interlude. 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:30.360 It really was how lovely. What quality do you like 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:31.600 least about yourself? 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.880 That's a tough one because there's so many choices. I 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.040 think that the quality I like least is my tendency 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.320 to compare myself to others. Because it's one of these 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:50.560 exercises that feels useful. It's actually self denigration disguised as 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:51.840 information gathering. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.960 That's very good. I'm writing that down, so. 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.000 It's like, what are other people doing? But that's not 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.120 really what I'm asking. What I'm looking for is a 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.280 way to undermine what I am doing and have done. So, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.640 just a one tangible example, every time I have a 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.560 book come out, I pick some other book that's doing better, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:14.360 because there always. 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.520 Is a book that's doing better, usually many. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:21.280 And I basically deem my effort a failure based on 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.760 that success. And it's so arbitrary that later I sometimes 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.800 you can't even remember what book I was using as 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.200 my instrument of infliction. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:32.920 You flatch a book. 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.360 Exactly long ago. 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.120 I would look at Amazon reviews, for example, a terrible mistake, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.400 and I always would obsess over the mean ones, and 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.280 of course a lot of them are mean because I'm 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.920 not the audience for those reviews. They're writing for each other, 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.520 and as well they should, that's what it's for. 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.640 And I'm seeing a therapist then, and he said, I 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.000 think you should call this what it is. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.640 When you go on Amazon and you read those, you 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:02.559 are going to read bad reviews. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.200 That's why you're going. So you have to ask yourself 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.040 before you do that, why am I doing that? 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.480 And I have to tell you I have not looked 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.080 at an Amazon review. It's got to have been fifteen years. 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.760 So I'm trying to work on this quality of mine, 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.640 but it's difficult to eradicate it is. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.720 It's the worst, It's the absolute worst. I read a 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:23.600 review once of something I did, and I just said, 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:31.560 mini driver dash tripe explanation point, which has now become 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.440 how can you respond? It's now become like whenever anything 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:36.760 goes wrong, I do sort of say, rather sadly to myself, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.280 mini driver tripe, like from dropping a bottle of ketchup 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.120 to larger and more important things. But I think sticking 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.800 away from them is a very good idea. Let me 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.480 ask you this, When you're comparing yourself, do you honestly 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.280 tune out the accolades and the reviews and all the 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.000 other stuff, like you've won a pulitzerprise. 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.880 I think in that negative state of mind, whose goal 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:09.560 is self undermining, any accolades feel like good luck and 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.319 things that I can't match, in other words, expectations I 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.720 could no longer fulfill. So they actually add to the 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.960 sense of in this state of mind, all the good 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.920 things from the past just feel like more evidence that 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.079 the present is falling short, like I can't match that. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.440 I so feel that. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.160 Yes, So that's the hard party. 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.160 Nothing helps in that mindset because the mindset is leading 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:37.560 the way. 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.120 That's another part of the trick. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.520 It feels like, well, I'm just looking at hard evidence 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.280 that I'm drawing my conclusions. Not at all, I am 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.720 looking in a slanted way at my achievements in life 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:54.160 and deeming them all insufficient, because that was always the 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.360 conclusion I was going to come to, because the conclusion 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:58.080 led the discovery. 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.560 God, that's some really clever, awful self battery right there, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.480 and I recognize it fully, really interesting I'm so glad 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.200 you've said that out loud. I'm going to share that 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.440 with everybody and then listen to it back when I 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.560 feel like doing the same thing, or if anybody does. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.360 I don't know what the solution is though. For me, 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.960 I just I think of it as weather. It's like, okay, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.000 it's that kind of day. Okay, So all of my 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.439 thinking is going to be like that, and I'm going 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.680 to try to just think about other things if I can, 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:28.520 and then I wait for it to pass. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.839 I think looking at it like whether, yes, a friend 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.560 of mine was blue and we were talking about that. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.040 Sometimes you just have to stay the course. You just 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.120 have to put your raincoat on and go below deck 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.280 for a minute. That's it. I'm wait. But I think 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.960 naming it is really good too. I'm just going sometimes 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.880 I do this thing. It looks like this. It gets 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.920 rid of all of this other thinking because I think 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.520 it's so recognizable. I think we all do it. 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.520 Yeah. I think if I were someone who meditated, that 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.280 would help, but at this point I'm not sure that's 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.960 ever going to be me. But for me, reading is 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.360 a huge help because it somehow occupies more parts of 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.800 my brain than most other activities. So if I can 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.440 really engage with that, I can let go of some 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.280 of that thinking and noticing. Okay, this is just a 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.840 day where every thought ends on this negative node. 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.160 Sometimes it's not even. 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.800 Comparison, it's just failure, a feeling like I could have 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.280 done this better, I could have done that better, and 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.319 then I just wait for that to pass. 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.200 Do you prescribe that to your kids? Have you said 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.040 that to them? Just wait it out, just hold on 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.960 and see where you are at tomorrow. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.079 Luckily, they're not this as much this way as I am, 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.160 which is really good, or at least not so far 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.559 good for them. But I do try to remind them 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.360 in moments where I feel like their anxiety is really 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.720 what's dictating their perceptions, I'll try to point to the 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.960 fact that in this anxious state, the anxiety looks for 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.640 something to kind of dig into, and so just know 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.199 that because you feel like this thing is going terribly wrong, 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.000 but in fact, all that's really going wrong is that 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.200 you're terribly anxious and you've found a thing to express that. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.240 Yeah, to hang it on. God, that really is so 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.600 exactly what I've been trying to put it into words. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.120 It's good. It's like descaling your brain, actually hearing somebody 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.800 else say things that you haven't been able to put 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:24.400 into words. 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.240 I like descaling the brain. That's cool. I need a 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:29.720 good descaling. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:46.880 Seriously in your life. Can you tell me about something 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.840 that has grown out of a personal disaster? 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:52.280 I can so. 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.920 I mentioned my father earlier, the Irish American guy whom 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.920 I loved so much, but I really didn't know him 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.640 well because my mother and stepfather moved moved with me 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.679 and my little brother who was their son, to San 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.160 Francisco when I was seven, and my father remained in Chicago. 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.760 He had three more kids. They're much younger than I am. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.760 I knew them when they were little, but then for 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.240 many reasons, I really didn't know them at all after 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.240 a certain point, and I really had almost no contact 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.360 with my father's family. I did see him now and then, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.640 but there was a bit of a chasm there. 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.000 And my father, when he. 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.520 Was actually younger than I am, he had just turned sixty, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.400 he was hit by a truck while he was bicycling 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:36.840 and he was killed. And so I was reunited with 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.200 my now adult siblings, and it was obviously just so 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.440 unexpected such a catastrophe. 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:44.320 I mean, he was going to be. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.520 Running in a marathon the next week. He was in 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.760 the peak of health, and it was a disastrous loss. 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.000 And for me, it really meant that I would never 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.160 really know my father. But I did reconnect with my 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.880 siblings and we have been close ever since. Really, and 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.360 that was nineteen ninety six, So wow, it's meant that 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.400 our kids know each other. They are a big part 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.120 of my life. And in fact, that brother that I 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.120 moved to San Francisco with, the son of my mother 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.120 and stepfather, ended up passing away very early in his life. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.400 So these are my siblings and I'm so grateful to 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.160 have them, and I'm not sure that reunion would have 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:28.840 happened without this absolute catastrophe of my father losing his life. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.920 I mean, I wish you were here. I wish he'd 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.200 gotten to do all the things he missed. I feel 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.640 so sad for him when I think that he never 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.720 saw his youngest child graduate from college, he never met 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.080 a grandchild. I mean, it's bad, but you know, there 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.560 are some good things at least we've been able to 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:46.720 enjoy in the wake of that. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:52.040 God. Yeah, I have a strange siblings who, Yeah, not 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.600 even the death of my father was enough to bring 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.920 us all back together. But I do wonder about them 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.000 an awful lot. Maybe one day. I like the idea 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.360 that there's I think everything is possible. I really do. 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.280 That's my most hopeful thought. 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.280 As long as we're all here, As long as as 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:07.640 long as. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.480 We're all here, everything is possible. Truly, sometimes I find 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:13.520 that to be a really edifying thought, like when things 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.200 are particularly dark, so everything is possible. Yes, everything awful 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.600 that you're currently thinking about, but also the turnaround and 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.960 the slightness of a solution to a gigantic problem. It's 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.480 never commensurate. Again, I don't remember whoever said that to 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.880 me when I was younger, but it was true. The 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.360 solution to a problem is never commensurate with the size 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.720 of the feeling around the problem. Hm. 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:37.560 Yes, it's true. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:42.720 I feel so sad about those kinds of chasms and divisions, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.880 given just how short life is and how hard it is. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.000 It feels so unnecessary, like it's sort of bad for everyone. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.200 But I also know that. 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:57.880 Sometimes people just cannot overcome these bad feelings. 0:16:58.280 --> 0:16:58.640 I don't know. 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:03.040 My disposition is always to try to connect with everyone. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.680 That's always my thought like, let's see if we can 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.080 work it out. But I know that's sometimes simplistic and 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.880 it doesn't always solve things. But I'm just a believer 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.359 in trying to, I don't know, try to find as 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.560 much joy together as we can while we're here. I 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:23.040 can't think of any more useful philosophy than that. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.879 In a way, like here we are, who knows exactly, 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.399 Let's try and have fun and make each other happy if. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.960 We can, exactly, Let's do as much as we can. 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.639 What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.840 So funny. I'm one of these people who's not great 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:45.480 at talking. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.159 About things like love because it always seems corny. But 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.359 I guess this is a very American of this moment answer. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.919 But I can't help but think of Rosalind and Jimmy 0:17:55.040 --> 0:18:03.760 Carter because super insanely long marriage which both real doers 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:10.199 and believers, you know, this long, rich, varied experience in 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.239 which they both remained so relevant kind of culturally and 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.160 to each other. I guess there's just an a liveness 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:22.000 about that in every conceivable way that is really exciting 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:23.080 and inspiring to me. 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.320 You know, I hope to live a really long life. 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.400 I hope my husband will live a really long life, 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.160 and I hope we can be that way. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.080 But they're a role model there, really are. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.520 I mean, it's just extraordinary, and I love she at 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:40.800 a time when men didn't necessarily, certainly not presidents, privilege 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.520 and prioritize their wives' views so much, she really had 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.360 such a strong voice. And I also love the way, 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.600 even though he was a one term president and sort 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.520 of ended in humiliation in a certain way, they just 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.520 use that as a starting point to do the kind 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.440 of work they wanted to do, and they did that 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.720 individually and together forever, and I just what more can 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.520 you really ask for from a love? 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:06.360 I'm not sure, No, I agree. 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:10.520 I agree that there was such dynamic humility in their 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:15.520 relationship that was pretty astonishing, because you're right where it 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.520 ended was just the beginning of what their life's work 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.960 was actually going to be. In actual fact, his presidentship 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:27.400 was the addendum to what was this unbelievably full, amazing life. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.959 I mean, remember when they put the solar panels up, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.560 Remember when there was the whole kind of ecoization of 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.280 the White House, and how that was just sort of 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.080 torn down at the end of his presidency, but they 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.840 carried it all on. I think you're right. I think 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.720 that's a really beautiful testament to love. I love that 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:45.840 you think love is corny. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.920 That's so funny, well talking about it, I mean as 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.400 a subject, it's just not something I would ever say. 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.119 I'm writing about love. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.920 I can't wait because I bet you do. Oh my god, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.480 I really want you to write about love. Now, come on, 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.520 it would be He's so good. I'll be in it. 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.280 I'll be in your awful, corny book about love. I'll 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:06.360 be a minor character. 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.119 Please come and inspire me Mannie, because right now I 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:11.880 got nothing. 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.399 Oh I got I love. I just keep trying to 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.520 insert myself in your books. It's really weird and great. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.119 I think that's cool. Everybody writes about love. I like 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.439 that you don't want to write about it. The thing is, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.239 I keep thinking that you have written about love, like 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.920 when I think about Goon Squad, like it's full of love. Yeah, 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.480 love is there, right, But you're not writing about love 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.160 and people being in love as it were. 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.200 Yeah for me, I mean, of course, anything that anyone 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.200 thinks my work is about is true. You know, it's 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.320 in the hands of the reader. But in my mind, 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:50.200 love is something that happens while you're writing about other things. 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:50.760 Right. 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.760 I don't know why, but that's how I think of it. 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.520 It can't be a subject unto itself. It almost feels 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:58.960 like it's not interesting enough. 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:00.400 Huh, has to. 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:06.400 Be there alongside something more complicated, more challenging. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.200 Yeah. I mean maybe it's because love isn't a thing. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.320 It's an amalgam of all these different things, which I 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.120 only realized that quite recently. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.440 You know, my husband and I had in exchange when 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.680 our older son was really little, and I said, he said, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.679 I love you, And I said to my husband, but 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:25.520