WEBVTT - Sam Sanders on Janet Jackson's Legacy 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:30.516 Pushkin Pushkin. Hey everyone, I'm dropping in to introduce an 0:00:30.516 --> 0:00:33.916 episode from my friend Sam Sanders and pr show It's 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:37.396 been a Minute. This year marks the thirty fifth anniversary 0:00:37.476 --> 0:00:41.356 of Janet Jackson's album Control. It was her first real 0:00:41.356 --> 0:00:44.676 commercial hit, established Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis as a 0:00:44.716 --> 0:00:49.036 production powerhouse away from Prince's artistic camp, and looking back, 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:52.036 helped three define not just R and B, but all 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:55.756 of pop music. In the late eighties and nineties, Janet 0:00:55.796 --> 0:00:58.196 was one of the biggest stars of our time, right 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:01.596 up with her brother Michael and Madonna. And yet Janet 0:01:01.676 --> 0:01:05.236 isn't always given her due. In this episode, host Sam 0:01:05.276 --> 0:01:09.436 Sanders explores why that is, how she made Control, and 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:12.956 an incident that lasted all but a second that changed 0:01:13.076 --> 0:01:17.556 the course of her career. All right, here's the episode. Enjoy. 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:23.716 What is your first Janet Jackson memory. It's a wild 0:01:23.756 --> 0:01:26.916 thing to ask me my first Janet Jackson memory, because 0:01:26.996 --> 0:01:32.476 Janet and I are like the same age. This is 0:01:32.556 --> 0:01:36.916 music journalist Danielle Smith. You know, it's a wonderful memory. 0:01:37.116 --> 0:01:41.156 So for my eighth birthday, my mother got me tickets 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:46.916 to see the Jackson five Live in concert at the 0:01:46.996 --> 0:01:54.116 Circle Star Theater in San Carlos, California. And when we 0:01:54.196 --> 0:01:57.356 got to the Circle Star Theater, there was an opening 0:01:57.476 --> 0:02:04.396 act and that opening act was Randy Jackson and Janet Jackson. 0:02:04.876 --> 0:02:10.556 Janet and Randy or Randy and Janet. Wow. And she's 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:13.596 at this point around your age, which is around eight. Yeah, 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:16.676 she was like seven or eight Yepol, How was she 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:20.036 in that opening active performance? Oh? Well, the thing is 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:24.676 they weren't even singing. They were like doing skits. Okay, Janet, 0:02:25.116 --> 0:02:26.996 now that you have what do you want to do? 0:02:27.196 --> 0:02:31.436 Like vaudeville they were doing. They had jokes you can't 0:02:31.476 --> 0:02:35.716 do that, everybody works in this family. And one of 0:02:35.716 --> 0:02:38.676 the jokes was, and Janet is kind of known for this. 0:02:38.756 --> 0:02:41.356 You can find the shots of her dressed up kind 0:02:41.356 --> 0:02:54.396 of like May West and doing May West impressions. Honey, 0:02:54.876 --> 0:02:56.956 that's the one because she has those two little bonds 0:02:56.956 --> 0:02:59.476 on her head and the feather balls, and she in 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:03.996 those hips and sass and everybody at like ye yes. 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:06.876 And so picture me in the audience screaming and yelling 0:03:06.916 --> 0:03:11.316 like a fool because my because my thought was, you 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.876 have to understand there was no social media there, weren't 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:19.116 that meaning like fan magazines are black magazines. For me 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:23.356 to know that there even was a little sister to 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:28.196 the Jackson five, so I was screaming in hollow. I 0:03:28.316 --> 0:03:37.156 was so happy to know about her. You're listening to 0:03:37.196 --> 0:03:40.676 It's been a minute from NPR. I'm Sam Sanders and 0:03:40.836 --> 0:03:46.636 this episode Janet, miss Jackson. It is hard to describe 0:03:46.796 --> 0:03:50.356 how much Janet Jackson means to me. I can recall 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:52.916 the exact place I was the first time I saw 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:56.596 several of her music videos. I remember trying to teach 0:03:56.636 --> 0:04:00.876 myself the choreography from her Pleasure principal video and almost 0:04:00.876 --> 0:04:04.756 being seriously injured in the process. I remember thinking that 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:07.796 I would never hear a better song in my entire 0:04:07.876 --> 0:04:12.076 life than will Never Do Without You. I was right, 0:04:13.236 --> 0:04:15.396 and you know, when it comes to the Janet fandom, 0:04:15.436 --> 0:04:19.116 I am not alone. Janet Jackson means a lot to 0:04:19.236 --> 0:04:21.716 a lot of people. So much of what she did 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:25.716 in the eighties and the nineties and beyond it laid 0:04:25.716 --> 0:04:28.076 the groundwork for so much that we see and here 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:35.196 now Brittany and Beyonce and even Taylor Swift, their styles 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:38.876 and their approaches to the industry itself. It was all 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:43.316 influenced by Janet Jackson. There is not a successful artist 0:04:43.356 --> 0:04:46.876 in pop today who isn't a descendant of the legacy 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:51.116 of Janet. As we've heard already, she began early with 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:54.356 the Jackson Five. From there, Janet had a starring role 0:04:54.396 --> 0:05:01.796 on the sitcom Good Times a Day, a recurring role 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:04.436 on Different Strokes. He sort of forbid me to see 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:07.156 you anymore? What did he say? I forbid you to 0:05:07.196 --> 0:05:11.956 see him? She was cast in the TV show Fame, 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:16.196 and then she also had a music career. Janet released 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:20.316 two albums, the self titled Janet Jackson and Dream Street 0:05:20.756 --> 0:05:25.196 All by the time she was eighteen and I'm gonna 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:31.596 be honest here. Those two albums, they were flops. It 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:34.556 wasn't until Janet's third album that the world finally turned 0:05:34.596 --> 0:05:38.876 its head and took notice. This is about control. When 0:05:38.876 --> 0:05:45.236 everything changed with Control, Control, control of what I do. 0:05:45.436 --> 0:05:48.596 So thirty five years ago this year, Janet blessed us 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:58.396 with this iconic album. Today we're talking about the legacy 0:05:58.396 --> 0:06:02.476 of Janet Jackson and how that album Control, it didn't 0:06:02.516 --> 0:06:06.156 just redefine her career, it really redefined all of pop 0:06:06.236 --> 0:06:09.436 music that came after it. For me, Control was one 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:11.916 of those albums that you get maybe once in a generation, 0:06:12.436 --> 0:06:17.316 singularly focused and so cohesive, and yet every song has 0:06:17.316 --> 0:06:20.556 a personality of its own. It had songwriting that pushed 0:06:20.556 --> 0:06:24.996 the envelope but also felt immediately familiar. It was music 0:06:25.076 --> 0:06:29.436 that critics and mainstream radio alike had to love. It 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:32.796 also gave a big lesson in crossover success, and that 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:34.956 is a topic that we've been discussing in this music 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:38.876 series we're doing. You know, Control was insanely popular with 0:06:38.876 --> 0:06:42.796 both white and black audiences and all different kinds of 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:46.956 radio formats. Of course, Janet Jackson did not make Control 0:06:47.076 --> 0:06:50.156 by herself. In nineteen eighty five, she met up with 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:52.556 two producers who would help her shape the sound of 0:06:52.556 --> 0:06:55.996 contemporary R and B for years to come. And then 0:06:55.996 --> 0:06:58.916 we were supposed to start working with another artist, and 0:06:58.956 --> 0:07:02.156 the artist decided that she didn't want to work with us. 0:07:02.476 --> 0:07:06.116 This is Terry Lewis. So John McClain called us and 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:08.276 said he was the A and R person. He said, 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:10.756 you know, who do you guys want to produce on 0:07:11.356 --> 0:07:14.636 our roster? You know, he sent the roster because at 0:07:14.676 --> 0:07:16.916 that time there was no fax machine and there was 0:07:16.956 --> 0:07:20.996 no email, So we got we got a roster and 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:24.356 the men. We both looked at it and said Janet. 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:28.996 So we called him and said, we like produced Janet 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:36.556 coming up producers and songwriters Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:39.196 and how they helped make one of the better pop 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:52.236 albums of our time. Before Control, Janet Jackson was doing 0:07:52.396 --> 0:07:56.356 mostly bubblegum pop, but producers Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis 0:07:56.876 --> 0:07:59.716 they saw something more. We've always kind of gone off 0:07:59.836 --> 0:08:04.196 people that inspire you, Like certain people can be talented, 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:06.716 but they don't necessarily inspire you to want to write 0:08:06.756 --> 0:08:11.036 songs for them. This is Jimmy Jam and in Janet's case, 0:08:11.236 --> 0:08:14.676 it was a simple thing for us. We both felt 0:08:14.716 --> 0:08:19.396 we could write really great songs for her. She inspired that. 0:08:20.916 --> 0:08:23.196 We thought she had a beautiful voice first of all, 0:08:24.196 --> 0:08:29.036 but what we thought was we missed when she was young. 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:33.716 She had all this attitude. She was like, she was like, 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:38.636 miss attitude. Why don't you come up the sisode? What's 0:08:38.636 --> 0:08:41.436 wrong with not remember the bonds in her hair, the 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:46.436 feather boa, the Maywest impressions. Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis 0:08:46.596 --> 0:08:50.076 remembered all of that. We felt the records that she 0:08:50.156 --> 0:08:54.436 had done They were quality records with quality producers, but 0:08:54.516 --> 0:08:57.876 the thing that we were missing on those records was 0:08:57.916 --> 0:09:01.836 where was that attitude? And so our thought was, if 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:03.556 we could work with her, we could bring a little 0:09:03.556 --> 0:09:07.916 bit of that attitude out. So at nineteen years old, 0:09:08.076 --> 0:09:11.636 Janet moved to Mineapolis to begin working with Jimmy jam 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:15.476 and Terry Lewis. She was finally taking control of her career. 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:23.956 Take me back to the first studio session y'all have 0:09:24.476 --> 0:09:29.756 with Janet in Minneapolis. What's it like? What is her vibe? 0:09:29.836 --> 0:09:31.556 What is the vibe? What do you recall from that 0:09:31.596 --> 0:09:36.236 first session? Well, really, the first sessions were not recording sessions. 0:09:36.316 --> 0:09:39.996 They were more therapy sessions. I guess I would call them. 0:09:40.156 --> 0:09:43.276 We spent a lot of time just hanging out together. 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:45.956 We you know, we would go to movies, we would 0:09:46.836 --> 0:09:49.836 hang out at clubs, we would ride around the lakes 0:09:49.836 --> 0:09:52.716 and just kind of hang out. And then we'd have discussions. 0:09:52.716 --> 0:09:55.996 And her discussions were not that we were trying to 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:57.796 analyze her, but we were just trying to get to 0:09:57.836 --> 0:10:00.036 know her better and know what was important to her 0:10:00.076 --> 0:10:01.956 and what she wanted to talk about, what she wanted 0:10:01.956 --> 0:10:05.436 to sing about. And after about a week of just 0:10:05.556 --> 0:10:09.156 kind of hanging out doing that. Janet said, well, what 0:10:09.236 --> 0:10:13.836 are we gonna start working? And we said and we said, oh, 0:10:13.876 --> 0:10:16.716 we're working, and we showed it the lyrics to uh 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:33.276 to control. People told me the movie Way to Stop 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:36.276 It stops us that past. So y'all, while you're just 0:10:36.476 --> 0:10:39.436 chilling with Janet going to the movies and driving around 0:10:39.436 --> 0:10:43.156 the lakes, you're actually like studying her and writing your 0:10:43.196 --> 0:10:45.556 first song for her in the process. Yeah, And that's 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:48.796 something we we always kind of did that with the artists, 0:10:49.116 --> 0:10:51.476 probably not quite as intense we did with Janet because 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:53.196 a lot of the artists we had worked with before, 0:10:54.276 --> 0:10:56.956 there was a little more um, I don't know, history 0:10:57.036 --> 0:10:58.836 or things we could study, so we knew a little 0:10:58.836 --> 0:11:00.596 bit more about them. But we would always do that 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:03.356 before we would write for an artist, because we always 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:07.396 wanted to contain to make the songs specifically for them. Okay, 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:09.316 So I and back in the day, we always we 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:11.636 always used to say, you know, if an artist likes McDonald's, 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:13.556 I don't want to start writing a song about burgercane 0:11:21.396 --> 0:11:23.276 because what happens is the artist for the rest of 0:11:23.276 --> 0:11:25.396 their lives. If you have a hit record, the artist 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:27.876 has to sing that for the rest of their life. 0:11:29.036 --> 0:11:31.836 We want them to have things, Yeah, make it fit. 0:11:31.916 --> 0:11:34.836 So that's the way we looked at it. So then 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:37.916 what kind of stuff was Janet sharing with y'all that 0:11:38.156 --> 0:11:40.516 made y'all want to write a song is strong and 0:11:40.756 --> 0:11:44.916 powerful as Control? Well, mainly that she was just taking 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:47.756 control of her life. She was moving out of her house. 0:11:48.036 --> 0:11:51.596 She was, you know, ready to become you know, to 0:11:51.676 --> 0:11:55.116 go out on her own. And also the other piece 0:11:55.196 --> 0:11:58.156 to the puzzle here was that she was really ready 0:11:58.196 --> 0:12:01.676 to sing. The first two albums that she did, she 0:12:01.836 --> 0:12:04.916 did between a lot of other things, and the idea 0:12:04.916 --> 0:12:07.116 of her singing wasn't really her idea was more her 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:11.236 dad's idea. So while she could sing, it's like when 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:13.876 you have a talent and somebody goes, oh, you're really 0:12:13.876 --> 0:12:15.116 good at that and you should do that, and you're 0:12:15.196 --> 0:12:17.116 kind of like, yeah, but I's not really what I 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:19.436 want to do. I think that was Janet's attitude. The 0:12:19.436 --> 0:12:22.236 first couple of records she sang because she could not 0:12:22.396 --> 0:12:25.556 because she wanted to, or that she needed to. When 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:28.716 we got around to Control, she was in a space 0:12:28.756 --> 0:12:33.596 where she actually wanted to be an artist. So the 0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:36.236 work that she was willing to put into it, and 0:12:36.316 --> 0:12:39.076 the fact that then when she got so excited when 0:12:39.316 --> 0:12:42.636 we showed her some of the control lyrics and she said, well, 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:44.356 wait a minute, this is what we've been talking about. 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.356 And said yeah, and she said, so whatever we talk about, 0:12:47.356 --> 0:12:49.596 that's what we're going to write about. And we said yeah, 0:12:49.636 --> 0:12:51.276 and she said, oh, well, then I want to talk 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:52.876 about this and I want to talk about this, and 0:12:52.916 --> 0:12:55.156 it totally opened her up at that point, and so 0:12:55.236 --> 0:12:59.036 then she became not only Janet the singer. She went 0:12:59.076 --> 0:13:01.556 from being Janet the reluctant singer to Janet I want 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:04.116 to sing to Now, here's what I want to sing about. 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.916 But nobody had asked her. Well, I am so glad 0:13:06.956 --> 0:13:09.116 that y'all asked her what she wanted to do, because 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:13.836 the result stands a test of time. Um, what kind 0:13:13.876 --> 0:13:18.516 of singer was Janet Jackson like in the studio? Fearless? 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:21.436 I get, yeah, Yeah, it's a couple of words that 0:13:21.556 --> 0:13:23.356 describe her. If I had to break it down into 0:13:23.476 --> 0:13:32.796 simple words, Um, yeah, Like Jem said, fearless, relentless, beautiful 0:13:33.396 --> 0:13:39.996 like a beautiful texture, and very in control. There's something 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:45.076 I want to tell you. A lot of people say 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:47.716 that that Janet's not a great singer, that Janet is 0:13:47.756 --> 0:13:52.756 a great singer. But in order to be a great singer, 0:13:52.796 --> 0:13:55.396 you don't have to be the loudest singers. You just 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:57.916 have to have control of what you like to do. 0:13:58.396 --> 0:14:01.516 And to me, style wins over by it. There you go. 0:14:04.156 --> 0:14:09.676 Job I always loved and you hear it in lots 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.596 of songs that she would do. She was able to 0:14:12.636 --> 0:14:15.876 convey emotion, not just through the singing. There's so many 0:14:15.916 --> 0:14:19.636 Janet classic Gennet songs where like her laugh conveys so much, 0:14:20.156 --> 0:14:23.076 or a sigh conveys so much, or a little quip 0:14:23.116 --> 0:14:25.276 in the intro for a song conveys so much. Like 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:28.956 you hear some of that acting training and the other 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:31.716 things she's doing on Yell's records, besides the singing. She 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:34.756 just knows how to convey emotion. Yeah, I totally agree. 0:14:34.796 --> 0:14:38.756 And that's but that's the things, those little elements, the breath, 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:43.196 the size of the laughs, those things she would always 0:14:43.236 --> 0:14:44.956 do and we would just leave them in there. A 0:14:45.036 --> 0:14:47.596 lot of times it was a mistake, you know, like 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:51.396 the oh sure, Like like the laugh on um I'm 0:14:51.436 --> 0:14:56.356 trying to oh when I think of you, but really 0:14:56.556 --> 0:14:58.676 I love that laugh. Yeah, but that's just like it's 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:00.516 like for most people, I think that would have been 0:15:00.556 --> 0:15:03.516 an outtake, and for us, all the things that were 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:05.756 outtakes were always the pieces that we always tried to 0:15:05.796 --> 0:15:07.556 make sure it was in there because that was the 0:15:07.636 --> 0:15:09.996 personality of her, you know, And if it was a 0:15:09.996 --> 0:15:13.036 happy song and she was laughing about it, then we 0:15:13.076 --> 0:15:15.596 wanted people to feel that when they were listening to 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:18.316 this song. And even in our production technique, we would 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:20.996 say to her if she was singing a song like that. 0:15:21.476 --> 0:15:23.516 A lot of times we wouldn't be looking at her 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:25.436 because the lights would all be out in the studio, 0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:28.756 but I would say, are you smiling, because this is 0:15:28.756 --> 0:15:30.716 a happy song. You gotta smile when you sing this song. 0:15:30.756 --> 0:15:33.236 And she goes, oh, okay, okay, And you could tell 0:15:33.276 --> 0:15:35.636 the difference because when you're smiling, even when you're talking 0:15:35.636 --> 0:15:37.716 to somebody, when you're smiling as you're talking to him 0:15:37.756 --> 0:15:40.756 as a different thing. So little things like that, little 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:44.316 nuances like that, we thought was really important. And also 0:15:44.356 --> 0:15:47.836 about her size and her breaths that she takes. One 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:52.876 of the things she shared with Michael was that rhythmic breathing. 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:58.916 I call it where her breath before she starts singing 0:15:59.156 --> 0:16:07.556 is on a beat, and when she sings, even the 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:10.916 way she ends her sense when she sang it wasn't 0:16:10.916 --> 0:16:12.316 like she would hit the last word. She hit the 0:16:12.356 --> 0:16:22.956 last word, but then there'd be like a little Those 0:16:22.996 --> 0:16:26.396 are the things that we loved because those became literally 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:30.036 part of the funkiness of the songs, and so we 0:16:30.036 --> 0:16:33.836 were very aware of that, and we loved that about Wow, 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:35.996 y'all can't see me right now, but I'm geeking out 0:16:35.996 --> 0:16:41.076 so hard getting this inside Baseball. It's just incredible to me. Incredible. 0:16:41.196 --> 0:16:43.396 Oh all right, So I want to talk more about 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:47.676 When I Think of You, because that is the song 0:16:47.876 --> 0:16:51.996 from Control that becomes I believe, her first number one 0:16:52.076 --> 0:16:55.996 hit on the Billboard one hundred and I have replayed 0:16:55.996 --> 0:16:58.836 that video so much. I was watching again yesterday a 0:16:58.916 --> 0:17:02.516 few times, and what I noticed most about that song 0:17:03.316 --> 0:17:06.716 and that video, besides the video being done in almost 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:09.716 just one single shot, it's very much a bb gumpop 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:13.156 song with bubble gumpop visuals, and it sounds and it 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:15.436 looks like it is supposed to be a crossover, like 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:18.316 it's supposed to be played on white radio and black 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:22.036 radio just the same. And I'm wondering with that song 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:25.156 and even with the album Control, we're y'all thinking of 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:28.676 that as you were making it success in different formats 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:32.076 and with folks from all kinds of backgrounds. Because this song, 0:17:32.676 --> 0:17:35.636 it really seems like it was made for that. I 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:37.916 would I would say, no, we weren't thinking about that. 0:17:37.956 --> 0:17:39.596 What we were thinking about I'll tell you what we 0:17:39.596 --> 0:17:42.556 were thinking about that was we wanted the album. Okay, 0:17:42.556 --> 0:17:44.916 So when we were living in la we were living 0:17:44.916 --> 0:17:47.276 in a neighborhood that, you know, we will say that 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:49.716 it's not like the well most people would say, not 0:17:49.756 --> 0:17:52.076 the best neighborhood. And what we loved about that area 0:17:52.076 --> 0:17:54.156 because growing up in Minneapolis, first of all, we grew 0:17:54.196 --> 0:17:58.796 up in a very white town and so we were 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:00.916 very aware. I mean, I grew up listening to nothing 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:04.556 but pop music pretty much growing up, so I guess 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:06.996 we had the sensibility about what it was. But with 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:09.796 Janet's record, we were trying to make the record that 0:18:10.196 --> 0:18:12.436 when we would walk down the streets of that neighborhood 0:18:13.236 --> 0:18:18.796 there would be music blasting out of everybody's house. And 0:18:18.876 --> 0:18:21.676 with Control, we said, we want our album to be 0:18:22.316 --> 0:18:25.116 that album that everybody's blasting out their house in that 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:34.716 neighborhood movie show. So we were going for the blackest, 0:18:34.796 --> 0:18:40.396 funkiest album we could make without any consideration of trying 0:18:40.396 --> 0:18:44.556 to crossover or anything like that. Despite not intending for 0:18:44.636 --> 0:18:49.316 Control to crossover, it did, and then some Control was 0:18:49.396 --> 0:18:53.116 Janet's first commercial hit. Five of the songs on that 0:18:53.196 --> 0:18:57.276 album became top five hits on the Billboard Hot one 0:18:57.356 --> 0:19:00.716 hundred singles chart, and when I Think of You it 0:19:00.836 --> 0:19:03.756 hit number one. Terry mentioned his name earlier. I mentioned 0:19:03.796 --> 0:19:05.836 his name again, John McClain, who was the A and 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:07.756 R person who was the one that hooked us up 0:19:07.756 --> 0:19:09.476 with Janet. He was the one that sent us list 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:11.076 of who do you want to work with at A 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:14.956 and M, and I remember he was the person as 0:19:15.116 --> 0:19:17.756 we when he heard Control, when we were done with it, 0:19:17.836 --> 0:19:21.356 he was the one that said this is double platinum. 0:19:21.396 --> 0:19:24.396 And we're like going, m no, I mean we're thinking, yeah, 0:19:24.436 --> 0:19:26.716 maybe we'll go gold with it. That'd be great. He 0:19:26.796 --> 0:19:28.836 said it's double platinum, and then he went back to 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:32.676 A and M and told everybody that really, like I mean, 0:19:32.716 --> 0:19:35.116 the story is worried. He would literally jump on people's 0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:37.956 desks like literally and go, you don't know what this is. 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:41.076 This is a double platinum record. He had everybody so 0:19:41.636 --> 0:19:44.716 hyped but intimidated at the same time, like, oh shoot, 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:48.956 we better go get to his record. Control went on 0:19:49.036 --> 0:19:52.396 to sell five million copies in the US and millions 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:55.796 more globally. It's spent more than ninety weeks on the 0:19:55.796 --> 0:20:00.756 Billboard charts. This album also earned multiple Grammy nominations, including 0:20:00.796 --> 0:20:05.996 one for Album of the Year. Janet Jackson album produces 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:09.996 Jimmy jam and Kevin Knew It. We cannot forget the 0:20:10.116 --> 0:20:14.076 music videos Pleasure, Principal, Nasty when I think of you. 0:20:14.596 --> 0:20:18.236 They are all peak culture with the Capitol c. If 0:20:18.276 --> 0:20:20.756 you go back and watch those videos right now, you 0:20:20.796 --> 0:20:23.076 can see that some of those moves, the kids are 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:29.556 still doing them today in their music videos today. So 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:40.076 after Control, Dannet released another hit album, Rhythm Nation. That 0:20:40.156 --> 0:20:43.556 album went platinum six times. When the Rhythm Nation tour 0:20:43.676 --> 0:20:48.436 was announced, it sold out arenas in minutes. In nineteen 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:53.076 ninety one, Ebony magazine named Janet and Michael Quote the 0:20:53.196 --> 0:20:57.636 biggest brother sister stars in show business history. I think 0:20:57.676 --> 0:21:00.676 those albums ended up changing the way that music sounded 0:21:00.716 --> 0:21:03.596 because it changed the way that radio sounded. And so 0:21:04.596 --> 0:21:07.716 I think the influence later on with the not only 0:21:07.756 --> 0:21:11.436 the album, but the visuals with the albums affected the 0:21:11.476 --> 0:21:14.556 way pop music, what pop music became. I mean, all 0:21:14.596 --> 0:21:17.436 the great pop music came out of Sweden at a 0:21:17.476 --> 0:21:19.876 certain point. You know, you had Max Martin, You had 0:21:19.956 --> 0:21:23.636 from everywhere from Backstreet Boys to Britney Spears to all 0:21:23.676 --> 0:21:26.476 of those records, and they were all to me based 0:21:26.556 --> 0:21:29.436 on what control and what rhythm nation was. And if 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:31.116 you talk to them they will tell you. I mean 0:21:31.236 --> 0:21:33.156 Max Martin. We went to the songwriters all of Fame 0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:35.836 the same year he did, and he said, hey, man, 0:21:35.876 --> 0:21:38.156 well we were making those records. We were just basically 0:21:38.196 --> 0:21:40.876 trying to do what you guys were doing in the nineties. 0:21:41.076 --> 0:21:45.076 Janet Jackson just kept going. In ninety three, she had 0:21:45.116 --> 0:21:48.316 another hit with a song that seemed to be everywhere 0:21:48.756 --> 0:21:53.596 for months, like a month. It was a lead single 0:21:53.676 --> 0:21:56.956 from her self titled Albums a Little Diddy called That's 0:21:56.996 --> 0:22:06.956 the Way Love Goes. That's the Way he Love Goes 0:22:07.116 --> 0:22:09.636 was number one on the Billboard charts for eight weeks. 0:22:10.236 --> 0:22:13.076 But Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis, they told me. At first, 0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:17.316 Janet didn't like the song. Her dancers had to convince 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:20.436 her that it could be a hit. And what happened 0:22:20.516 --> 0:22:23.076 was is very much what happened in the video, which 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:26.036 was she put the cassette on a both the tracks 0:22:26.076 --> 0:22:28.236 we were working on, and when that track came on, 0:22:28.396 --> 0:22:31.076 and she was with all her dancers and all her friends, 0:22:31.116 --> 0:22:32.876 and in the video, one of them is j Loo. Yeah, 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:36.596 exactly exactly. But she was with all her friends on vacation. 0:22:36.636 --> 0:22:38.556 They were in Anguilla, as a matter of fact, and 0:22:38.596 --> 0:22:42.036 she said when that song came on, everybody was just like, oh, 0:22:42.116 --> 0:22:44.796 what is that? That's the one right there, And so 0:22:44.836 --> 0:22:46.716 it made her hear it differently because of the way 0:22:46.756 --> 0:22:49.276 her friends and dancers were hearing it. And when she 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:58.476 got back, that was the song. I think we all 0:23:00.276 --> 0:23:07.196 realize one that she was here to stay again. Music 0:23:07.276 --> 0:23:12.916 journalist Danielle Smith that there was no flashing the pan 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:17.116 thing happening with her. That she was committed to the look, 0:23:17.236 --> 0:23:20.116 she was committed to the music, she was committed to 0:23:20.156 --> 0:23:26.996 the work, to the choreography, to everything. So Janet was 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:30.676 now in the same league as her brother Michael and Madonna. 0:23:31.116 --> 0:23:34.716 And then some ways Tina Turner, please forward, but then 0:23:35.476 --> 0:23:38.356 congratulations and welcome to Super Bowl thirty eight. The Super 0:23:38.356 --> 0:23:41.596 Bowl happened. Carolina has been designated the visiting team today. 0:23:42.276 --> 0:23:45.836 I mean, to me, the way I remember is it 0:23:45.916 --> 0:23:49.116 was violent coming up, we go back to that moment 0:23:49.156 --> 0:23:51.836 in two thousand and four and why it looks and 0:23:51.956 --> 0:23:57.156 feels so different in today's rearview mirror justice for Janet 0:23:57.716 --> 0:24:14.556 after the break. I think it's hard to like talk 0:24:14.596 --> 0:24:18.596 about her omnipresence. Like I remember that video for That's 0:24:18.596 --> 0:24:21.036 the Way Love Goes. I felt like it was played 0:24:21.076 --> 0:24:23.916 on MTV every five minutes. You could not turn on 0:24:23.956 --> 0:24:26.196 your radio on any kind of station and not hear 0:24:26.276 --> 0:24:29.556 that song. She was on the cover of all the magazines. 0:24:30.396 --> 0:24:33.596 Like when you compare what she was doing in that 0:24:33.636 --> 0:24:36.796 moment and how everywhere she was to I don't know 0:24:36.876 --> 0:24:40.676 a Taylor Swift or a Beyonce today, how does it 0:24:40.716 --> 0:24:46.396 compare the level? I mean, you can compare it, But 0:24:46.476 --> 0:24:49.876 then my thing is can you Because the thing is 0:24:52.556 --> 0:24:55.316 that's something that I because I've interviewed Janet any number 0:24:55.316 --> 0:24:58.716 of times, and in one of our conversations, you know, 0:24:58.876 --> 0:25:03.556 she just acknowledged the fact that she kind of created herself, 0:25:04.596 --> 0:25:07.236 like I think the Beyonce would be the first person 0:25:07.316 --> 0:25:12.876 to say that without the influence of Yes, definitely Tina 0:25:12.916 --> 0:25:16.436 Turner and I always want to add Donna Summer when 0:25:16.476 --> 0:25:19.116 I think about Beyonce. But if there was not a 0:25:19.236 --> 0:25:23.476 Janet Jackson, especially with regard to singing and dancing at 0:25:23.476 --> 0:25:26.916 the same time, you know, Beyonce pulls from all of that. 0:25:27.276 --> 0:25:30.316 Oh yeah, and then Taylor with regard to just being 0:25:30.396 --> 0:25:35.556 everywhere and singing the feelings of youth at that moment. 0:25:36.476 --> 0:25:39.476 Like when I think about my niece's relationship to Taylor 0:25:39.556 --> 0:25:42.076