1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:30,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin. Hey everyone, I'm dropping in to introduce an 2 00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: episode from my friend Sam Sanders and pr show It's 3 00:00:33,956 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: been a Minute. This year marks the thirty fifth anniversary 4 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:41,356 Speaker 1: of Janet Jackson's album Control. It was her first real 5 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: commercial hit, established Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis as a 6 00:00:44,716 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 1: production powerhouse away from Prince's artistic camp, and looking back, 7 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: helped three define not just R and B, but all 8 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,756 Speaker 1: of pop music. In the late eighties and nineties, Janet 9 00:00:55,796 --> 00:00:58,196 Speaker 1: was one of the biggest stars of our time, right 10 00:00:58,276 --> 00:01:01,596 Speaker 1: up with her brother Michael and Madonna. And yet Janet 11 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 1: isn't always given her due. In this episode, host Sam 12 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:09,436 Speaker 1: Sanders explores why that is, how she made Control, and 13 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 1: an incident that lasted all but a second that changed 14 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:17,556 Speaker 1: the course of her career. All right, here's the episode. Enjoy. 15 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:23,716 Speaker 1: What is your first Janet Jackson memory. It's a wild 16 00:01:23,756 --> 00:01:26,916 Speaker 1: thing to ask me my first Janet Jackson memory, because 17 00:01:26,996 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: Janet and I are like the same age. This is 18 00:01:32,556 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 1: music journalist Danielle Smith. You know, it's a wonderful memory. 19 00:01:37,116 --> 00:01:41,156 Speaker 1: So for my eighth birthday, my mother got me tickets 20 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: to see the Jackson five Live in concert at the 21 00:01:46,996 --> 00:01:54,116 Speaker 1: Circle Star Theater in San Carlos, California. And when we 22 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 1: got to the Circle Star Theater, there was an opening 23 00:01:57,476 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: act and that opening act was Randy Jackson and Janet Jackson. 24 00:02:04,876 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 1: Janet and Randy or Randy and Janet. Wow. And she's 25 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:13,596 Speaker 1: at this point around your age, which is around eight. Yeah, 26 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:16,676 Speaker 1: she was like seven or eight Yepol, How was she 27 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:20,036 Speaker 1: in that opening active performance? Oh? Well, the thing is 28 00:02:20,436 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 1: they weren't even singing. They were like doing skits. Okay, Janet, 29 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: now that you have what do you want to do? 30 00:02:27,196 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 1: Like vaudeville they were doing. They had jokes you can't 31 00:02:31,476 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 1: do that, everybody works in this family. And one of 32 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:38,676 Speaker 1: the jokes was, and Janet is kind of known for this. 33 00:02:38,756 --> 00:02:41,356 Speaker 1: You can find the shots of her dressed up kind 34 00:02:41,356 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 1: of like May West and doing May West impressions. Honey, 35 00:02:54,876 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: that's the one because she has those two little bonds 36 00:02:56,956 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: on her head and the feather balls, and she in 37 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 1: those hips and sass and everybody at like ye yes. 38 00:03:04,276 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 1: And so picture me in the audience screaming and yelling 39 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 1: like a fool because my because my thought was, you 40 00:03:11,356 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: have to understand there was no social media there, weren't 41 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:19,116 Speaker 1: that meaning like fan magazines are black magazines. For me 42 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: to know that there even was a little sister to 43 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:28,196 Speaker 1: the Jackson five, so I was screaming in hollow. I 44 00:03:28,316 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 1: was so happy to know about her. You're listening to 45 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 1: It's been a minute from NPR. I'm Sam Sanders and 46 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 1: this episode Janet, miss Jackson. It is hard to describe 47 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:50,356 Speaker 1: how much Janet Jackson means to me. I can recall 48 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 1: the exact place I was the first time I saw 49 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: several of her music videos. I remember trying to teach 50 00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: myself the choreography from her Pleasure principal video and almost 51 00:04:00,876 --> 00:04:04,756 Speaker 1: being seriously injured in the process. I remember thinking that 52 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: I would never hear a better song in my entire 53 00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 1: life than will Never Do Without You. I was right, 54 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: and you know, when it comes to the Janet fandom, 55 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 1: I am not alone. Janet Jackson means a lot to 56 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 1: a lot of people. So much of what she did 57 00:04:22,196 --> 00:04:25,716 Speaker 1: in the eighties and the nineties and beyond it laid 58 00:04:25,716 --> 00:04:28,076 Speaker 1: the groundwork for so much that we see and here 59 00:04:28,276 --> 00:04:35,196 Speaker 1: now Brittany and Beyonce and even Taylor Swift, their styles 60 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:38,876 Speaker 1: and their approaches to the industry itself. It was all 61 00:04:38,916 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 1: influenced by Janet Jackson. There is not a successful artist 62 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 1: in pop today who isn't a descendant of the legacy 63 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 1: of Janet. As we've heard already, she began early with 64 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: the Jackson Five. From there, Janet had a starring role 65 00:04:54,396 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 1: on the sitcom Good Times a Day, a recurring role 66 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: on Different Strokes. He sort of forbid me to see 67 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:07,156 Speaker 1: you anymore? What did he say? I forbid you to 68 00:05:07,196 --> 00:05:11,956 Speaker 1: see him? She was cast in the TV show Fame, 69 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:16,196 Speaker 1: and then she also had a music career. Janet released 70 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: two albums, the self titled Janet Jackson and Dream Street 71 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:25,196 Speaker 1: All by the time she was eighteen and I'm gonna 72 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 1: be honest here. Those two albums, they were flops. It 73 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 1: wasn't until Janet's third album that the world finally turned 74 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:38,876 Speaker 1: its head and took notice. This is about control. When 75 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:45,236 Speaker 1: everything changed with Control, Control, control of what I do. 76 00:05:45,436 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: So thirty five years ago this year, Janet blessed us 77 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:58,396 Speaker 1: with this iconic album. Today we're talking about the legacy 78 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:02,476 Speaker 1: of Janet Jackson and how that album Control, it didn't 79 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:06,156 Speaker 1: just redefine her career, it really redefined all of pop 80 00:06:06,236 --> 00:06:09,436 Speaker 1: music that came after it. For me, Control was one 81 00:06:09,436 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 1: of those albums that you get maybe once in a generation, 82 00:06:12,436 --> 00:06:17,316 Speaker 1: singularly focused and so cohesive, and yet every song has 83 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:20,556 Speaker 1: a personality of its own. It had songwriting that pushed 84 00:06:20,556 --> 00:06:24,996 Speaker 1: the envelope but also felt immediately familiar. It was music 85 00:06:25,076 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 1: that critics and mainstream radio alike had to love. It 86 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: also gave a big lesson in crossover success, and that 87 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: is a topic that we've been discussing in this music 88 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: series we're doing. You know, Control was insanely popular with 89 00:06:38,876 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 1: both white and black audiences and all different kinds of 90 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: radio formats. Of course, Janet Jackson did not make Control 91 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:50,156 Speaker 1: by herself. In nineteen eighty five, she met up with 92 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: two producers who would help her shape the sound of 93 00:06:52,556 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 1: contemporary R and B for years to come. And then 94 00:06:55,996 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: we were supposed to start working with another artist, and 95 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: the artist decided that she didn't want to work with us. 96 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 1: This is Terry Lewis. So John McClain called us and 97 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: said he was the A and R person. He said, 98 00:07:08,676 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 1: you know, who do you guys want to produce on 99 00:07:11,356 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 1: our roster? You know, he sent the roster because at 100 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 1: that time there was no fax machine and there was 101 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:20,996 Speaker 1: no email, So we got we got a roster and 102 00:07:21,036 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 1: the men. We both looked at it and said Janet. 103 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 1: So we called him and said, we like produced Janet 104 00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 1: coming up producers and songwriters Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, 105 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:39,196 Speaker 1: and how they helped make one of the better pop 106 00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: albums of our time. Before Control, Janet Jackson was doing 107 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 1: mostly bubblegum pop, but producers Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis 108 00:07:56,876 --> 00:07:59,716 Speaker 1: they saw something more. We've always kind of gone off 109 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:04,196 Speaker 1: people that inspire you, Like certain people can be talented, 110 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily inspire you to want to write 111 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 1: songs for them. This is Jimmy Jam and in Janet's case, 112 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 1: it was a simple thing for us. We both felt 113 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:19,396 Speaker 1: we could write really great songs for her. She inspired that. 114 00:08:20,916 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 1: We thought she had a beautiful voice first of all, 115 00:08:24,196 --> 00:08:29,036 Speaker 1: but what we thought was we missed when she was young. 116 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:33,716 Speaker 1: She had all this attitude. She was like, she was like, 117 00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: miss attitude. Why don't you come up the sisode? What's 118 00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 1: wrong with not remember the bonds in her hair, the 119 00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 1: feather boa, the Maywest impressions. Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis 120 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:50,076 Speaker 1: remembered all of that. We felt the records that she 121 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 1: had done They were quality records with quality producers, but 122 00:08:54,516 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: the thing that we were missing on those records was 123 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 1: where was that attitude? And so our thought was, if 124 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 1: we could work with her, we could bring a little 125 00:09:03,556 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: bit of that attitude out. So at nineteen years old, 126 00:09:08,076 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: Janet moved to Mineapolis to begin working with Jimmy jam 127 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:15,476 Speaker 1: and Terry Lewis. She was finally taking control of her career. 128 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 1: Take me back to the first studio session y'all have 129 00:09:24,476 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 1: with Janet in Minneapolis. What's it like? What is her vibe? 130 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 1: What is the vibe? What do you recall from that 131 00:09:31,596 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 1: first session? Well, really, the first sessions were not recording sessions. 132 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 1: They were more therapy sessions. I guess I would call them. 133 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time just hanging out together. 134 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:45,956 Speaker 1: We you know, we would go to movies, we would 135 00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: hang out at clubs, we would ride around the lakes 136 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:52,716 Speaker 1: and just kind of hang out. And then we'd have discussions. 137 00:09:52,716 --> 00:09:55,996 Speaker 1: And her discussions were not that we were trying to 138 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 1: analyze her, but we were just trying to get to 139 00:09:57,836 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 1: know her better and know what was important to her 140 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 1: and what she wanted to talk about, what she wanted 141 00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 1: to sing about. And after about a week of just 142 00:10:05,556 --> 00:10:09,156 Speaker 1: kind of hanging out doing that. Janet said, well, what 143 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:13,836 Speaker 1: are we gonna start working? And we said and we said, oh, 144 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: we're working, and we showed it the lyrics to uh 145 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:33,276 Speaker 1: to control. People told me the movie Way to Stop 146 00:10:33,316 --> 00:10:36,276 Speaker 1: It stops us that past. So y'all, while you're just 147 00:10:36,476 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: chilling with Janet going to the movies and driving around 148 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:43,156 Speaker 1: the lakes, you're actually like studying her and writing your 149 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 1: first song for her in the process. Yeah, And that's 150 00:10:45,596 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 1: something we we always kind of did that with the artists, 151 00:10:49,116 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 1: probably not quite as intense we did with Janet because 152 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: a lot of the artists we had worked with before, 153 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: there was a little more um, I don't know, history 154 00:10:57,036 --> 00:10:58,836 Speaker 1: or things we could study, so we knew a little 155 00:10:58,836 --> 00:11:00,596 Speaker 1: bit more about them. But we would always do that 156 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,356 Speaker 1: before we would write for an artist, because we always 157 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:07,396 Speaker 1: wanted to contain to make the songs specifically for them. Okay, 158 00:11:07,396 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 1: So I and back in the day, we always we 159 00:11:09,356 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: always used to say, you know, if an artist likes McDonald's, 160 00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:13,556 Speaker 1: I don't want to start writing a song about burgercane 161 00:11:21,396 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 1: because what happens is the artist for the rest of 162 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:25,396 Speaker 1: their lives. If you have a hit record, the artist 163 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:27,876 Speaker 1: has to sing that for the rest of their life. 164 00:11:29,036 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 1: We want them to have things, Yeah, make it fit. 165 00:11:31,916 --> 00:11:34,836 Speaker 1: So that's the way we looked at it. So then 166 00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:37,916 Speaker 1: what kind of stuff was Janet sharing with y'all that 167 00:11:38,156 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 1: made y'all want to write a song is strong and 168 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 1: powerful as Control? Well, mainly that she was just taking 169 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 1: control of her life. She was moving out of her house. 170 00:11:48,036 --> 00:11:51,596 Speaker 1: She was, you know, ready to become you know, to 171 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:55,116 Speaker 1: go out on her own. And also the other piece 172 00:11:55,196 --> 00:11:58,156 Speaker 1: to the puzzle here was that she was really ready 173 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:01,676 Speaker 1: to sing. The first two albums that she did, she 174 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: did between a lot of other things, and the idea 175 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:07,116 Speaker 1: of her singing wasn't really her idea was more her 176 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 1: dad's idea. So while she could sing, it's like when 177 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:13,876 Speaker 1: you have a talent and somebody goes, oh, you're really 178 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:15,116 Speaker 1: good at that and you should do that, and you're 179 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: kind of like, yeah, but I's not really what I 180 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:19,436 Speaker 1: want to do. I think that was Janet's attitude. The 181 00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 1: first couple of records she sang because she could not 182 00:12:22,396 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 1: because she wanted to, or that she needed to. When 183 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,716 Speaker 1: we got around to Control, she was in a space 184 00:12:28,756 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 1: where she actually wanted to be an artist. So the 185 00:12:33,636 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: work that she was willing to put into it, and 186 00:12:36,316 --> 00:12:39,076 Speaker 1: the fact that then when she got so excited when 187 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:42,636 Speaker 1: we showed her some of the control lyrics and she said, well, 188 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is what we've been talking about. 189 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 1: And said yeah, and she said, so whatever we talk about, 190 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:49,596 Speaker 1: that's what we're going to write about. And we said yeah, 191 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:51,276 Speaker 1: and she said, oh, well, then I want to talk 192 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:52,876 Speaker 1: about this and I want to talk about this, and 193 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:55,156 Speaker 1: it totally opened her up at that point, and so 194 00:12:55,236 --> 00:12:59,036 Speaker 1: then she became not only Janet the singer. She went 195 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 1: from being Janet the reluctant singer to Janet I want 196 00:13:01,596 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: to sing to Now, here's what I want to sing about. 197 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 1: But nobody had asked her. Well, I am so glad 198 00:13:06,956 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 1: that y'all asked her what she wanted to do, because 199 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 1: the result stands a test of time. Um, what kind 200 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,516 Speaker 1: of singer was Janet Jackson like in the studio? Fearless? 201 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: I get, yeah, Yeah, it's a couple of words that 202 00:13:21,556 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 1: describe her. If I had to break it down into 203 00:13:23,476 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 1: simple words, Um, yeah, Like Jem said, fearless, relentless, beautiful 204 00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 1: like a beautiful texture, and very in control. There's something 205 00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:45,076 Speaker 1: I want to tell you. A lot of people say 206 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: that that Janet's not a great singer, that Janet is 207 00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 1: a great singer. But in order to be a great singer, 208 00:13:52,796 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: you don't have to be the loudest singers. You just 209 00:13:55,476 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 1: have to have control of what you like to do. 210 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 1: And to me, style wins over by it. There you go. 211 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 1: Job I always loved and you hear it in lots 212 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 1: of songs that she would do. She was able to 213 00:14:12,636 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: convey emotion, not just through the singing. There's so many 214 00:14:15,916 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 1: Janet classic Gennet songs where like her laugh conveys so much, 215 00:14:20,156 --> 00:14:23,076 Speaker 1: or a sigh conveys so much, or a little quip 216 00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: in the intro for a song conveys so much. Like 217 00:14:26,036 --> 00:14:28,956 Speaker 1: you hear some of that acting training and the other 218 00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 1: things she's doing on Yell's records, besides the singing. She 219 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:34,756 Speaker 1: just knows how to convey emotion. Yeah, I totally agree. 220 00:14:34,796 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: And that's but that's the things, those little elements, the breath, 221 00:14:38,876 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: the size of the laughs, those things she would always 222 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:44,956 Speaker 1: do and we would just leave them in there. A 223 00:14:45,036 --> 00:14:47,596 Speaker 1: lot of times it was a mistake, you know, like 224 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: the oh sure, Like like the laugh on um I'm 225 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:56,356 Speaker 1: trying to oh when I think of you, but really 226 00:14:56,556 --> 00:14:58,676 Speaker 1: I love that laugh. Yeah, but that's just like it's 227 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: like for most people, I think that would have been 228 00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:03,516 Speaker 1: an outtake, and for us, all the things that were 229 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 1: outtakes were always the pieces that we always tried to 230 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: make sure it was in there because that was the 231 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 1: personality of her, you know, And if it was a 232 00:15:09,996 --> 00:15:13,036 Speaker 1: happy song and she was laughing about it, then we 233 00:15:13,076 --> 00:15:15,596 Speaker 1: wanted people to feel that when they were listening to 234 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: this song. And even in our production technique, we would 235 00:15:18,316 --> 00:15:20,996 Speaker 1: say to her if she was singing a song like that. 236 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:23,516 Speaker 1: A lot of times we wouldn't be looking at her 237 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,436 Speaker 1: because the lights would all be out in the studio, 238 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 1: but I would say, are you smiling, because this is 239 00:15:28,756 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 1: a happy song. You gotta smile when you sing this song. 240 00:15:30,756 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: And she goes, oh, okay, okay, And you could tell 241 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:35,636 Speaker 1: the difference because when you're smiling, even when you're talking 242 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:37,716 Speaker 1: to somebody, when you're smiling as you're talking to him 243 00:15:37,756 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: as a different thing. So little things like that, little 244 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: nuances like that, we thought was really important. And also 245 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 1: about her size and her breaths that she takes. One 246 00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:52,876 Speaker 1: of the things she shared with Michael was that rhythmic breathing. 247 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:58,916 Speaker 1: I call it where her breath before she starts singing 248 00:15:59,156 --> 00:16:07,556 Speaker 1: is on a beat, and when she sings, even the 249 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:10,916 Speaker 1: way she ends her sense when she sang it wasn't 250 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:12,316 Speaker 1: like she would hit the last word. She hit the 251 00:16:12,356 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 1: last word, but then there'd be like a little Those 252 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 1: are the things that we loved because those became literally 253 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:30,036 Speaker 1: part of the funkiness of the songs, and so we 254 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:33,836 Speaker 1: were very aware of that, and we loved that about Wow, 255 00:16:34,236 --> 00:16:35,996 Speaker 1: y'all can't see me right now, but I'm geeking out 256 00:16:35,996 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 1: so hard getting this inside Baseball. It's just incredible to me. Incredible. 257 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 1: Oh all right, So I want to talk more about 258 00:16:43,436 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 1: When I Think of You, because that is the song 259 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 1: from Control that becomes I believe, her first number one 260 00:16:52,076 --> 00:16:55,996 Speaker 1: hit on the Billboard one hundred and I have replayed 261 00:16:55,996 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: that video so much. I was watching again yesterday a 262 00:16:58,916 --> 00:17:02,516 Speaker 1: few times, and what I noticed most about that song 263 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:06,716 Speaker 1: and that video, besides the video being done in almost 264 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,716 Speaker 1: just one single shot, it's very much a bb gumpop 265 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:13,156 Speaker 1: song with bubble gumpop visuals, and it sounds and it 266 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 1: looks like it is supposed to be a crossover, like 267 00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be played on white radio and black 268 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 1: radio just the same. And I'm wondering with that song 269 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 1: and even with the album Control, we're y'all thinking of 270 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: that as you were making it success in different formats 271 00:17:28,716 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 1: and with folks from all kinds of backgrounds. Because this song, 272 00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: it really seems like it was made for that. I 273 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 1: would I would say, no, we weren't thinking about that. 274 00:17:37,956 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: What we were thinking about I'll tell you what we 275 00:17:39,596 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 1: were thinking about that was we wanted the album. Okay, 276 00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:44,916 Speaker 1: So when we were living in la we were living 277 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:47,276 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood that, you know, we will say that 278 00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:49,716 Speaker 1: it's not like the well most people would say, not 279 00:17:49,756 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 1: the best neighborhood. And what we loved about that area 280 00:17:52,076 --> 00:17:54,156 Speaker 1: because growing up in Minneapolis, first of all, we grew 281 00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: up in a very white town and so we were 282 00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 1: very aware. I mean, I grew up listening to nothing 283 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 1: but pop music pretty much growing up, so I guess 284 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 1: we had the sensibility about what it was. But with 285 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 1: Janet's record, we were trying to make the record that 286 00:18:10,196 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 1: when we would walk down the streets of that neighborhood 287 00:18:13,236 --> 00:18:18,796 Speaker 1: there would be music blasting out of everybody's house. And 288 00:18:18,876 --> 00:18:21,676 Speaker 1: with Control, we said, we want our album to be 289 00:18:22,316 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 1: that album that everybody's blasting out their house in that 290 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:34,716 Speaker 1: neighborhood movie show. So we were going for the blackest, 291 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 1: funkiest album we could make without any consideration of trying 292 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 1: to crossover or anything like that. Despite not intending for 293 00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 1: Control to crossover, it did, and then some Control was 294 00:18:49,396 --> 00:18:53,116 Speaker 1: Janet's first commercial hit. Five of the songs on that 295 00:18:53,196 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: album became top five hits on the Billboard Hot one 296 00:18:57,356 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: hundred singles chart, and when I Think of You it 297 00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:03,756 Speaker 1: hit number one. Terry mentioned his name earlier. I mentioned 298 00:19:03,796 --> 00:19:05,836 Speaker 1: his name again, John McClain, who was the A and 299 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:07,756 Speaker 1: R person who was the one that hooked us up 300 00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 1: with Janet. He was the one that sent us list 301 00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:11,076 Speaker 1: of who do you want to work with at A 302 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:14,956 Speaker 1: and M, and I remember he was the person as 303 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 1: we when he heard Control, when we were done with it, 304 00:19:17,836 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: he was the one that said this is double platinum. 305 00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 1: And we're like going, m no, I mean we're thinking, yeah, 306 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 1: maybe we'll go gold with it. That'd be great. He 307 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 1: said it's double platinum, and then he went back to 308 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 1: A and M and told everybody that really, like I mean, 309 00:19:32,716 --> 00:19:35,116 Speaker 1: the story is worried. He would literally jump on people's 310 00:19:35,156 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 1: desks like literally and go, you don't know what this is. 311 00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:41,076 Speaker 1: This is a double platinum record. He had everybody so 312 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:44,716 Speaker 1: hyped but intimidated at the same time, like, oh shoot, 313 00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:48,956 Speaker 1: we better go get to his record. Control went on 314 00:19:49,036 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 1: to sell five million copies in the US and millions 315 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 1: more globally. It's spent more than ninety weeks on the 316 00:19:55,796 --> 00:20:00,756 Speaker 1: Billboard charts. This album also earned multiple Grammy nominations, including 317 00:20:00,796 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: one for Album of the Year. Janet Jackson album produces 318 00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:09,996 Speaker 1: Jimmy jam and Kevin Knew It. We cannot forget the 319 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 1: music videos Pleasure, Principal, Nasty when I think of you. 320 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:18,236 Speaker 1: They are all peak culture with the Capitol c. If 321 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:20,756 Speaker 1: you go back and watch those videos right now, you 322 00:20:20,796 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: can see that some of those moves, the kids are 323 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 1: still doing them today in their music videos today. So 324 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 1: after Control, Dannet released another hit album, Rhythm Nation. That 325 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: album went platinum six times. When the Rhythm Nation tour 326 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 1: was announced, it sold out arenas in minutes. In nineteen 327 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:53,076 Speaker 1: ninety one, Ebony magazine named Janet and Michael Quote the 328 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 1: biggest brother sister stars in show business history. I think 329 00:20:57,676 --> 00:21:00,676 Speaker 1: those albums ended up changing the way that music sounded 330 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 1: because it changed the way that radio sounded. And so 331 00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:07,716 Speaker 1: I think the influence later on with the not only 332 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: the album, but the visuals with the albums affected the 333 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:14,556 Speaker 1: way pop music, what pop music became. I mean, all 334 00:21:14,596 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 1: the great pop music came out of Sweden at a 335 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 1: certain point. You know, you had Max Martin, You had 336 00:21:19,956 --> 00:21:23,636 Speaker 1: from everywhere from Backstreet Boys to Britney Spears to all 337 00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:26,476 Speaker 1: of those records, and they were all to me based 338 00:21:26,556 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 1: on what control and what rhythm nation was. And if 339 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:31,116 Speaker 1: you talk to them they will tell you. I mean 340 00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:33,156 Speaker 1: Max Martin. We went to the songwriters all of Fame 341 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 1: the same year he did, and he said, hey, man, 342 00:21:35,876 --> 00:21:38,156 Speaker 1: well we were making those records. We were just basically 343 00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: trying to do what you guys were doing in the nineties. 344 00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 1: Janet Jackson just kept going. In ninety three, she had 345 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:48,316 Speaker 1: another hit with a song that seemed to be everywhere 346 00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: for months, like a month. It was a lead single 347 00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 1: from her self titled Albums a Little Diddy called That's 348 00:21:56,996 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: the Way Love Goes. That's the Way he Love Goes 349 00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 1: was number one on the Billboard charts for eight weeks. 350 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 1: But Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis, they told me. At first, 351 00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:17,316 Speaker 1: Janet didn't like the song. Her dancers had to convince 352 00:22:17,356 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 1: her that it could be a hit. And what happened 353 00:22:20,516 --> 00:22:23,076 Speaker 1: was is very much what happened in the video, which 354 00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:26,036 Speaker 1: was she put the cassette on a both the tracks 355 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: we were working on, and when that track came on, 356 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:31,076 Speaker 1: and she was with all her dancers and all her friends, 357 00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:32,876 Speaker 1: and in the video, one of them is j Loo. Yeah, 358 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. But she was with all her friends on vacation. 359 00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:38,556 Speaker 1: They were in Anguilla, as a matter of fact, and 360 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 1: she said when that song came on, everybody was just like, oh, 361 00:22:42,116 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: what is that? That's the one right there, And so 362 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:46,716 Speaker 1: it made her hear it differently because of the way 363 00:22:46,756 --> 00:22:49,276 Speaker 1: her friends and dancers were hearing it. And when she 364 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:58,476 Speaker 1: got back, that was the song. I think we all 365 00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 1: realize one that she was here to stay again. Music 366 00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: journalist Danielle Smith that there was no flashing the pan 367 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 1: thing happening with her. That she was committed to the look, 368 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: she was committed to the music, she was committed to 369 00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: the work, to the choreography, to everything. So Janet was 370 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 1: now in the same league as her brother Michael and Madonna. 371 00:23:31,116 --> 00:23:34,716 Speaker 1: And then some ways Tina Turner, please forward, but then 372 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 1: congratulations and welcome to Super Bowl thirty eight. The Super 373 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,596 Speaker 1: Bowl happened. Carolina has been designated the visiting team today. 374 00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:45,836 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the way I remember is it 375 00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:49,116 Speaker 1: was violent coming up, we go back to that moment 376 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,836 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four and why it looks and 377 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:57,156 Speaker 1: feels so different in today's rearview mirror justice for Janet 378 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:14,556 Speaker 1: after the break. I think it's hard to like talk 379 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 1: about her omnipresence. Like I remember that video for That's 380 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:21,036 Speaker 1: the Way Love Goes. I felt like it was played 381 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 1: on MTV every five minutes. You could not turn on 382 00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 1: your radio on any kind of station and not hear 383 00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 1: that song. She was on the cover of all the magazines. 384 00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: Like when you compare what she was doing in that 385 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: moment and how everywhere she was to I don't know 386 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 1: a Taylor Swift or a Beyonce today, how does it 387 00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: compare the level? I mean, you can compare it, But 388 00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:49,876 Speaker 1: then my thing is can you Because the thing is 389 00:24:52,556 --> 00:24:55,316 Speaker 1: that's something that I because I've interviewed Janet any number 390 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:58,716 Speaker 1: of times, and in one of our conversations, you know, 391 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: she just acknowledged the fact that she kind of created herself, 392 00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:07,236 Speaker 1: like I think the Beyonce would be the first person 393 00:25:07,316 --> 00:25:12,876 Speaker 1: to say that without the influence of Yes, definitely Tina 394 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 1: Turner and I always want to add Donna Summer when 395 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:19,116 Speaker 1: I think about Beyonce. But if there was not a 396 00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 1: Janet Jackson, especially with regard to singing and dancing at 397 00:25:23,476 --> 00:25:26,916 Speaker 1: the same time, you know, Beyonce pulls from all of that. 398 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:30,316 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then Taylor with regard to just being 399 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:35,556 Speaker 1: everywhere and singing the feelings of youth at that moment. 400 00:25:36,476 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 1: Like when I think about my niece's relationship to Taylor 401 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:42,076 Speaker 1: Swift and how my niece had to tell me again 402 00:25:42,116 --> 00:25:45,116 Speaker 1: I get the age of nine or ten that if 403 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:48,236 Speaker 1: I was going to understand my job, excuse you, Parker 404 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 1: threw Williams, that I needed to listen to Taylor to 405 00:25:52,556 --> 00:25:57,916 Speaker 1: understand her generation. Yeah. I mean, there are just many 406 00:25:57,956 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 1: of us that say, if you want to understand, especially 407 00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: black women and really just women, to understand what it 408 00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 1: felt like to be in love, to come into your 409 00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: own as a twenty year old, twenty five year old, 410 00:26:10,476 --> 00:26:14,036 Speaker 1: because Janet takes us on all the beats. Yeah, yeah, 411 00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 1: so you know so. But Janets has sung our life 412 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 1: to US. In the run up to the super Bowl 413 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:25,716 Speaker 1: halftime show, Janet was still on top. Her last album 414 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 1: before that performance, All for You. It had come out 415 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:31,956 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one with another number one single 416 00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:36,276 Speaker 1: called All for You. So of course Janet was asked 417 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:39,276 Speaker 1: to headline the super Bowl because what kind of musicians 418 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 1: do you ask to headline the super Bowl halftime show? 419 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:46,676 Speaker 1: The heavy hitters. She's like the biggest star in the world, 420 00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 1: and even in two thousand and four from a royal 421 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:55,876 Speaker 1: musical family. So okay, super Bowl performance. We have come 422 00:26:55,956 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 1: to the end of the first half of super Bowl 423 00:26:58,476 --> 00:27:03,156 Speaker 1: thirty eight. It was Sunday, February first, two thousand and four. 424 00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:06,716 Speaker 1: The Carolina Panthers were taken on the New England Patriots 425 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:10,996 Speaker 1: in Houston, Texas. At halftime, it was Janet singing Rhythm 426 00:27:11,036 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 1: Nation and All for You. The other performers were a 427 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:25,596 Speaker 1: Pe Diddy, Nelly and Kid Rock talk About a Moment 428 00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:28,556 Speaker 1: in time. And then to close out the show, it 429 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 1: was Janet again, but this time she was joined by 430 00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:35,796 Speaker 1: Justin Timberlake on his song rock Your Body. That's All. 431 00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:46,636 Speaker 1: I'm in the kitchen in Los Angeles. It's super Bowl Sunday. 432 00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:49,316 Speaker 1: Who cares about the game. I'm here for the food, 433 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:57,116 Speaker 1: so so I'm literally doing something in the kitchen and 434 00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:00,036 Speaker 1: I hear there's a bunch of people at my parents' house, 435 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: and I hear gasps and screams, oh wow. And I 436 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,596 Speaker 1: walk in, and I promise you, I feel like everybody 437 00:28:13,036 --> 00:28:17,236 Speaker 1: that was over, male and female, had their hand over 438 00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:24,236 Speaker 1: their mouth. And of course I'm like, what happened? And 439 00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:31,116 Speaker 1: there somebody said, you know, somebody snatched off Janet's top, 440 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:36,916 Speaker 1: and then you know, everything unfolds. Like Janet Jackson is 441 00:28:36,916 --> 00:28:40,756 Speaker 1: apologizing for her flashdance. The singer calls the bodice ripping 442 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 1: move by fellow entertainer Justin Timberlake during the Super Bowl 443 00:28:43,396 --> 00:28:46,396 Speaker 1: halftime show a last minute stopped that went too far. 444 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:50,276 Speaker 1: Viewers watched as Timberlake grabbed Jackson's outfit and ripped it 445 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:53,716 Speaker 1: open during a live broadcast on CBS. Timberlake called it 446 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 1: a wardrobe malfunctions. You guys are getting pretty hot and 447 00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,316 Speaker 1: see me up. Hey man, I love giving y'all something 448 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:03,316 Speaker 1: to talk about it. But Janet Jackson says, it was 449 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 1: not my intention that it goes as far as we 450 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:11,876 Speaker 1: could do a whole other episode on the phrase wardrobe malfunction. 451 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:16,596 Speaker 1: This phrase eventually became so ubiquitous that it was nominated 452 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: by the American Dialect Society is two thousand four's Word 453 00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: of the Year. It also got a nomination for most Euphemistic. 454 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: The phrase wardrobe malfunction was defined as quote an unanticipated 455 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 1: exposure of bodily parts. This phrase lost on both counts 456 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 1: a true snub if you ask me, and yes, in 457 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:42,356 Speaker 1: this moment, a big, loud part of America was definitely 458 00:29:42,436 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: offended or at least pretending to be offended by that 459 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:51,876 Speaker 1: quote unanticipated exposure of bodily parts. Following the halftime show 460 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four, the Federal Communications Commission announced 461 00:29:55,116 --> 00:29:58,076 Speaker 1: that it had received a record five hundred and forty 462 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 1: thousand complaints about the incident, and they find CBS a 463 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 1: little more than half a million dollars on an indecency violation. 464 00:30:07,636 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 1: If you were too young to recall of this, trust 465 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:12,516 Speaker 1: me when I say there was a whole lot of 466 00:30:12,596 --> 00:30:16,356 Speaker 1: pearl clutching going on. My son seemed to think that 467 00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:20,996 Speaker 1: they should sue Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake because they 468 00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 1: were the ones who did it, and it was really nasty. 469 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 1: If the fourth grade boys at a public elementary school 470 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:34,476 Speaker 1: can tell right from wrong. We need to ask ourselves 471 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:40,716 Speaker 1: where you corporate CEOs lost your way. But here's the thing. 472 00:30:40,916 --> 00:30:42,676 Speaker 1: When I was watching the halftime show back in two 473 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:47,396 Speaker 1: thousand and four when it happened, I didn't notice. For me, 474 00:30:47,436 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 1: it was until the next day in my music beery 475 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:52,316 Speaker 1: class that all my classmates were talking about it and 476 00:30:52,436 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 1: watching clips of what happened over and over again. At 477 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: the time, TiVo announced that it was the most replayed 478 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:03,076 Speaker 1: moment in the company's history, and one of the co 479 00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 1: founders of YouTube he Is cited this exact moment and 480 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: the difficulty in finding that video as inspiration for the 481 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 1: creation of YouTube. Also, if you really think about it, 482 00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 1: it's and maybe that's why. To me, it just reminds 483 00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:21,156 Speaker 1: me of violence. It's a similar thing to me of 484 00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:24,876 Speaker 1: how we have to keep seeing the black people getting 485 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:27,956 Speaker 1: beat up by the cops over and over again, or 486 00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:31,396 Speaker 1: seeing the child gets shot by the law enforcement, and 487 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 1: we have to keep seeing it over and over again. 488 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 1: It does two things. It one grinds it into your brain, 489 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:41,116 Speaker 1: but it also can be numbing. Right, But in either case, 490 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: it's almost like, why why is this violent? Moment, this 491 00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:51,556 Speaker 1: being shown to us over and over and over again. 492 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:55,556 Speaker 1: And also, of course, the main question then is why 493 00:31:55,556 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: did it do so much damage to Janet's reputation without 494 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:08,636 Speaker 1: doing similar damage to justice. It It was as if 495 00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 1: that piece of fabric that was ripped from her clothing 496 00:32:12,596 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 1: was replaced with some big scarlet letter. It was just 497 00:32:19,716 --> 00:32:25,076 Speaker 1: as if the world said we're done with you now 498 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:29,796 Speaker 1: because of this. This was a moment that lasted all 499 00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:33,276 Speaker 1: but a second, and yet it essentially stopped a thirty 500 00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 1: plus year career in its tracks. After that halftime show, 501 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 1: Janet was blacklisted, MTV refused to play her music videos, 502 00:32:41,556 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 1: station stopped playing her songs, and Janet didn't appear at 503 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 1: the Grammy Awards just a few days later. Her invitation 504 00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:53,516 Speaker 1: was conditional on her apology, but Justin went and apologized, 505 00:32:53,836 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 1: and he took home two awards that night, one for 506 00:32:56,956 --> 00:33:00,716 Speaker 1: Best Male Pop Vocal Performance and another for Best Pop 507 00:33:00,796 --> 00:33:04,276 Speaker 1: Vocal Album. Listen. I know it's been a rough week 508 00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:13,036 Speaker 1: on everybody, and what curd was unintentional, completely regrettable, and 509 00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 1: I apologize if you guys are offended. This has been 510 00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:21,316 Speaker 1: a dream of mine. Don't I already got enough? Don't 511 00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:25,636 Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, Janet sat down with Oprah 512 00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:28,836 Speaker 1: Winfrey for what she said at the time was the 513 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:32,156 Speaker 1: final word on the issue. Do you think in any 514 00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:40,916 Speaker 1: way that Justin Timberlake left you hanging out there? I 515 00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:46,836 Speaker 1: am speaking to miss Jackson. Do you well all the 516 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: emphasis was put on me, not on Justin. And that 517 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 1: same year, Justin told MTV that if you consider what 518 00:33:54,756 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 1: happened back then fifty fifty, he only got ten percent 519 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: of the blame. I think that says something about society, 520 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:06,956 Speaker 1: you know. I think that America's harsh wrong women, and 521 00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:13,876 Speaker 1: I think that America, because you know, unfairly harsh on 522 00:34:15,356 --> 00:34:20,676 Speaker 1: ethnic people. We reached out to Janet's publicity team and 523 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 1: we were told that she has no comment. Justin Timberlake 524 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:27,556 Speaker 1: also had no comment. But earlier this year, Justin did 525 00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:31,876 Speaker 1: post an apology on Instagram to both Janet and Britney Spears. 526 00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:35,716 Speaker 1: He said, quote, I am deeply sorry for the times 527 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 1: in my life where my actions contributed to the problem, 528 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:41,756 Speaker 1: where I spoke out of turn or did not speak 529 00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:47,196 Speaker 1: up for what was right. The fact is after the 530 00:34:47,196 --> 00:34:52,516 Speaker 1: halftime show, Janet's career suffered, while Justin's thrived so much 531 00:34:52,516 --> 00:34:55,876 Speaker 1: so that. In twenty eighteen, Justin was invited back to 532 00:34:55,916 --> 00:34:59,556 Speaker 1: perform at the Super Bowl halftime show, this time solo. 533 00:35:02,396 --> 00:35:04,756 Speaker 1: I used the word criminal a lot when I talk 534 00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:09,036 Speaker 1: about black people in music, and specifically you know me talk. 535 00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:12,196 Speaker 1: We're talking about black women in music not receiving the 536 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: credit that they're due. I really think that it's criminal 537 00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:19,236 Speaker 1: that we, as you started this conversation, that we forget 538 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:23,956 Speaker 1: the impact that Janet Jackson has had on music. It's 539 00:35:24,036 --> 00:35:28,876 Speaker 1: bloody and it's criminal. What do you think is the 540 00:35:28,916 --> 00:35:35,796 Speaker 1: biggest lesson or takeaway about the music industry, about American 541 00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:38,876 Speaker 1: celebrity culture, about the way black women are treated in music. 542 00:35:38,956 --> 00:35:42,516 Speaker 1: What's the biggest takeaway for any of those things from 543 00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:48,916 Speaker 1: the super Bowl incident? I mean, the biggest takeaway from 544 00:35:50,236 --> 00:35:53,076 Speaker 1: Janet not receiving the credit that is due to her 545 00:35:53,516 --> 00:35:57,196 Speaker 1: in this world of culture that we all live in. Yeah, 546 00:35:59,876 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 1: is to me how little has changed since the days 547 00:36:08,356 --> 00:36:15,876 Speaker 1: when like Rainy and Stuff we're making music, The days 548 00:36:15,956 --> 00:36:20,116 Speaker 1: when people like Leon Team Price we're having to fight, 549 00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:23,636 Speaker 1: you know, to be on stage as some of the 550 00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:28,276 Speaker 1: best opera houses around the world, When Marion Anderson can't 551 00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:32,116 Speaker 1: sleep in hotels, you know, in the cities where she's 552 00:36:32,116 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 1: playing to pack houses of black and non black audiences. 553 00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:39,116 Speaker 1: When you think about how hard Motown had to fight 554 00:36:40,636 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: to get black music played on pop stations, the same 555 00:36:43,436 --> 00:36:47,836 Speaker 1: battle that are just like Whitney Houston, Gladys Night, Tony Braxton, 556 00:36:48,316 --> 00:36:51,396 Speaker 1: the fights they still had to fight to get played 557 00:36:51,436 --> 00:36:53,876 Speaker 1: on pop radio. And this is when pop radio mattered 558 00:36:53,996 --> 00:36:57,916 Speaker 1: in the pre streaming era. These were real fights. And 559 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:01,956 Speaker 1: then we have to be in this situation where Janet 560 00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:08,436 Speaker 1: is to me victimize on Super Bowl Sunday and she 561 00:37:08,516 --> 00:37:14,516 Speaker 1: takes the blame for it. Yeah. Yeah, the takeaway is, Wow, 562 00:37:15,516 --> 00:37:19,716 Speaker 1: it hasn't changed that much. That's the takeaway that times change, 563 00:37:20,156 --> 00:37:23,436 Speaker 1: and maybe there's more magazine covers and maybe there's more 564 00:37:23,476 --> 00:37:30,316 Speaker 1: sales and more streaming, but it hasn't changed that much. Yeah. Yeah. 565 00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:35,316 Speaker 1: You know, in the last year, there has been a 566 00:37:35,396 --> 00:37:40,716 Speaker 1: new kind of conversation around the way women in pop 567 00:37:40,876 --> 00:37:44,076 Speaker 1: music are treated, and a lot of that conversation was 568 00:37:44,156 --> 00:37:49,516 Speaker 1: started by what's happening with Britney Spears. You know, she's 569 00:37:49,556 --> 00:37:52,396 Speaker 1: been in this conservatorship for years. She has had very 570 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:56,316 Speaker 1: public mental health issues and as she has been arguing 571 00:37:56,396 --> 00:37:59,956 Speaker 1: to get out of that conservatorship, there's a new conversation 572 00:38:00,036 --> 00:38:04,156 Speaker 1: about whether or not our society is nice enough to 573 00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:08,156 Speaker 1: women like Brittany or Janet or Beyonce, and whether the 574 00:38:08,316 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: machine of celebrity choose them up and then spits them out. 575 00:38:13,476 --> 00:38:18,036 Speaker 1: And when those conversations began, I said, Okay, this is good. 576 00:38:19,156 --> 00:38:22,716 Speaker 1: But I began to notice over time that the conversation 577 00:38:22,836 --> 00:38:25,876 Speaker 1: seemed to focus and crept me here if I'm wrong, 578 00:38:26,436 --> 00:38:28,796 Speaker 1: It seemed to focus more on white women in pop 579 00:38:28,876 --> 00:38:32,116 Speaker 1: than on Black women in pop. Because you think about 580 00:38:32,276 --> 00:38:36,916 Speaker 1: Janet and Brittany, there's a direct through line there. You know, 581 00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:40,796 Speaker 1: Janet did so much of what we see in Brittany's 582 00:38:40,796 --> 00:38:44,636 Speaker 1: work first, and both of them were connected for a 583 00:38:44,636 --> 00:38:49,476 Speaker 1: while to Justin Timberlake. And yet this conversation around the 584 00:38:49,516 --> 00:38:52,116 Speaker 1: way we treated Brittany and the way that Justin treated Brittany, 585 00:38:52,476 --> 00:38:54,956 Speaker 1: it felt like it didn't extend to the way that 586 00:38:55,836 --> 00:38:59,836 Speaker 1: Justin treated Janet or the way that the industry treated Janet. One. 587 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:02,276 Speaker 1: Do you think that's correct to say? And to what's 588 00:39:02,356 --> 00:39:08,916 Speaker 1: up with that? I mean, yeah, I mean it's like 589 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:14,236 Speaker 1: a thing about being a black woman, of which I'm one. 590 00:39:16,996 --> 00:39:19,916 Speaker 1: You know, I think that people so often think that 591 00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:26,516 Speaker 1: whatever it is we can manage it that somehow. You know, 592 00:39:26,716 --> 00:39:35,436 Speaker 1: we're just like stronger in particular then white ladies, white girls, 593 00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:41,076 Speaker 1: that we just can take it emotionally, we can take 594 00:39:41,076 --> 00:39:45,076 Speaker 1: it physically. You know, we can just plow through because 595 00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:48,556 Speaker 1: you know we're strong. We're a strong black woman. As 596 00:39:48,596 --> 00:39:50,836 Speaker 1: the saying goes, you know, we're so strong. You know 597 00:39:50,876 --> 00:39:55,716 Speaker 1: we can just push it, pull it lifted, deal with it. Management. Well, 598 00:39:55,796 --> 00:40:04,836 Speaker 1: you know what that's lies. I think that is the 599 00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:07,796 Speaker 1: important conversation that's come out of it for our part 600 00:40:08,396 --> 00:40:11,196 Speaker 1: is that, no, I don't think that black women are 601 00:40:11,276 --> 00:40:14,596 Speaker 1: being extended as much grace, you know, as it's being 602 00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:18,996 Speaker 1: extended to Brittany. And I think it should all be 603 00:40:19,116 --> 00:40:21,796 Speaker 1: extended to Brittany, but that black girls need that same 604 00:40:21,876 --> 00:40:27,636 Speaker 1: generosity of spirit coming from people. Yeah. Let me go 605 00:40:27,676 --> 00:40:34,116 Speaker 1: on ahead and quote Karen White. She said, I'm not 606 00:40:34,196 --> 00:40:41,836 Speaker 1: your super woman. I'm not your super woman. I'm not 607 00:40:41,876 --> 00:40:44,636 Speaker 1: the kind of girl that you can let down and 608 00:40:44,756 --> 00:40:51,036 Speaker 1: think that everything is okay. Boy, I am only human. 609 00:40:52,476 --> 00:40:57,396 Speaker 1: I mean, let's go, let's go, let's let that be, 610 00:40:58,276 --> 00:41:18,756 Speaker 1: let's bring that anthem back. Kenley. Thanks again to journalists 611 00:41:18,756 --> 00:41:23,196 Speaker 1: and podcaster Danielle Smith. All of you right now go 612 00:41:23,276 --> 00:41:27,636 Speaker 1: check out her podcast. It's called Black Girl Songbook. And 613 00:41:27,956 --> 00:41:30,996 Speaker 1: thanks of course to the legendary producing and songwriting duo 614 00:41:31,436 --> 00:41:34,756 Speaker 1: Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. This episode was produced by 615 00:41:34,796 --> 00:41:38,076 Speaker 1: Danny West with help from Liam McBain and Sam yellow 616 00:41:38,116 --> 00:41:41,836 Speaker 1: Horse Kessler. Thanks also to Kimberly Sullivan and Sarah at Night. 617 00:41:42,276 --> 00:41:46,036 Speaker 1: Our editor for this one was Jordana Hochman, who fun 618 00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:49,316 Speaker 1: fact revealed to me in the taping of this episode 619 00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,836 Speaker 1: that at one point she learned some choreography to the 620 00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:58,236 Speaker 1: Janna Jackson song. If all right, listeners, there is one 621 00:41:58,236 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 1: more episode in this special music series, all about Crossover. 622 00:42:01,996 --> 00:42:05,556 Speaker 1: Next week we examined the so called Latin Explosion of 623 00:42:05,596 --> 00:42:09,316 Speaker 1: the late nineties, you know, Ricky Martin and Shakira and 624 00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:11,676 Speaker 1: j Loo and Mark Anthony and the rigue I Glessius. 625 00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:15,996 Speaker 1: We'll ask whether it worked, who it was for, and 626 00:42:16,156 --> 00:42:18,996 Speaker 1: why if you look back on it now twenty years later, 627 00:42:19,676 --> 00:42:23,716 Speaker 1: it all feels kind of offensive. All right, till next time, 628 00:42:23,956 --> 00:42:27,036 Speaker 1: I'm Sam Sanders. Be good to yourselves, Go play some Janet, 629 00:42:27,316 --> 00:42:35,476 Speaker 1: dance it out. We'll talk soon. Well. I hope that 630 00:42:36,436 --> 00:42:40,036 Speaker 1: all of us give Janet her flowers and keep doing 631 00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:44,356 Speaker 1: so because the body of work, it just keeps on giving, 632 00:42:44,676 --> 00:42:49,516 Speaker 1: It just keeps on giving. So to to be like 633 00:42:49,596 --> 00:42:56,116 Speaker 1: a Janet Jackson fan, like it just feels good. It does. Listeners, 634 00:42:56,156 --> 00:42:59,356 Speaker 1: if you aren't already on board, get on board, Get 635 00:42:59,396 --> 00:43:02,516 Speaker 1: on this Janet bandwagon. It's not too late. She's still here, 636 00:43:02,956 --> 00:43:06,836 Speaker 1: the music is still here forever. Thanks again to Sam 637 00:43:06,876 --> 00:43:10,116 Speaker 1: Sanders and her friends at NPRS It's been The team 638 00:43:10,156 --> 00:43:12,116 Speaker 1: has a music series in their feed right now that 639 00:43:12,196 --> 00:43:17,036 Speaker 1: explores the idea of crossover and pop music across three decades. 640 00:43:17,596 --> 00:43:20,876 Speaker 1: They're breaking down specific moments in music history and asking 641 00:43:21,236 --> 00:43:24,396 Speaker 1: who was it really for Head over to Itspentiminute feed 642 00:43:24,556 --> 00:43:27,036 Speaker 1: to hear other episodes in the series.